Artsakh, Armenia React to Downed Helicopter

Minsk Group, State Department Comments Fall Short of Assigning Blame to Azerbaijan

Special for the Armenian Weekly

STEPANAKERT (A.W.)—A day after Azerbaijan downed an Artsakh Mi-24 helicopter near the line of contact and declared Artsakh’s airspace a no-fly zone, Armenia’s President Serge Sarkisian arrived aboard a helicopter that landed at Stepanakert’s airport. Artsakh President Bako Sahakyan greeted Sarkisian—both clad in military fatigues—and, together with high ranking military officials, visited military sites to assess troop readiness. The President’s arrival came after a tense night marked by unyielding gunfire from the Azeri side that prevented rescue personnel from reaching the downed aircraft. So far, the reaction in Artsakh has been measured, Artak Beglaryan, spokesperson for NKR Prime Minister Ara Harutyunyan told the Armenian Weekly. “There is no panic within society. We are assessing the situation realistically.”

Artsakh President Bako Sahakyan greets Armenia's President Serge Sarkisian at Stepanakert's airport on Nov. 13. (Photo courtesy of President.am)
Artsakh President Bako Sahakyan greets Armenia’s President Serge Sarkisian at Stepanakert’s airport on Nov. 13. (Photo courtesy of President.am)

Artsakh’s Defense Ministry press service has reported that the ceasefire was breached by Azerbaijan around 250 times during the night of Nov. 12, with over 3,000 shots fired.

As a result, Armenian troops have been unable to approach the downed helicopter. The three crew members have been identified as Maj. Sergey Sahakyan, Sr. Lt. Sargis Nazaryan, and Lt. Azat Sahakyan. According to some sources, one of the three pilots aboard the helicopter may still be alive.

“An NKR Defense Ministry representative said one of the pilots may be alive, but the Azeri side hasn’t stopped the intensive shooting around the territory of the incident. At this moment, there is no update, and the situation remains the same,” Beglaryan told the Weekly at around 1 a.m. on Nov. 14 (NKR time).

A video—shot from the point of view of Azeri troops—shows the moment the helicopter was hit by a missile.
A video—shot from the point of view of Azeri troops—shows the moment the helicopter was hit by a missile.

“It is apparent that Azerbaijan not only broke the ceasefire regime with a serious provocation, but continues to violate humanitarian laws by preventing the Armenian side from approaching the downed helicopter and potentially saving the life of the pilot. The International Red Cross Mission [ICRC] has already confirmed that it received a request from NKR. Hopefully they will react promptly to save the life of our pilot,” said Beglaryan.

The Artsakh State Commission on Prisoners of War, Hostages, and Missing Persons appealed to the ICRC on Nov. 13, informing them of the continued gunfire that prevented the Armenian side from reaching the flight crew.

Video footage counters official Azeri narrative

A video—shot from the point of view of Azeri troops—shows the moment the helicopter was hit by a missile. Azeri servicemen are heard cheering in jubilation. An explosion is seen upon impact on the ground. Another helicopter, which was flying just ahead of the downed aircraft, escapes unharmed.

An infographic prepared by Armenia's Ministry of Defense analyses claims surrounding the attack
An infographic prepared by Armenia’s Ministry of Defense analyses claims surrounding the attack

The video clearly demonstrates that the downed helicopter was not engaged in an offensive against Azeri positions, and that the attack was not a self-defense maneuver as claimed by Azerbaijan’s Defense Ministry, said Armenia’s Defense Ministry Spokesman Artsrun Hovhannisian in a statement.

“Senseless are the assertions of the Azerbaijani side that the Armenian helicopters attacked their positions. The investigation of the debris of the helicopter will prove it was not armed,” Hovhannisian was quoted as saying. He also warned Azerbaijan of “painful consequences.”

Minsk Group criticized for inadequate response

In a Nov. 13 statement, NKR’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs called the attack “an unprecedented violation of the ceasefire fraught with serious escalation of tension.”

“This criminal and adventurous provocation by Azerbaijan… demonstrated its total disregard towards the OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chair countries and the international community as a whole,” read the statement, which also underlined the need for the adoption of measures to “de-escalate the tension,” to investigate the ceasefire violations, and to identify “the true perpetrator” of those violations. The statement further noted that “untargeted” calls for adherence to the ceasefire further embolden Azerbaijan with “a false sense of permissiveness and impunity.”

Beglaryan, spokesperson for NKR’s Prime Minister, said Artsakh citizens believe a strong statement condemning the attack is due. “[They] think that an adequate response should be provided for moral and rational reasons, and to prevent such actions in the future,” he told the Weekly.

To note, following the downing of the helicopter, the OSCE Minsk Group Co-Chairs released a statement on Nov. 12, expressing “serious concern” over the attack, and appealed to both sides to adhere to the ceasefire. The Co-Chairs fell short of unequivocally condemning the attack as an act of aggression by Azerbaijan, instead opting to address both countries.

Armenian National Committee of America Executive Director Aram Hamparian criticized the Minsk Group statement. “…The OSCE’s public response once again falls back into the deeply flawed pattern of placing equal blame on both sides for hostility that all the world knows is being directed by one man, Ilham Aliyev, the President of Azerbaijan,” he said.

State Department spokesperson: ‘there are views by both sides’

During a daily press briefing on Nov. 13, State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki said the State Department “regret[s] the loss of life,” and expressed condolences to the families of those killed or injured. “This event is yet another reminder of the need to redouble efforts on a peaceful resolution to the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict, including reducing tension and respecting the ceasefire,” she said.

State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki on whether Azerbaijan is to blame for the ceasefire violation: 'We understand there are views by both sides, but I don’t have any comment from the U.S. Government on it.'
State Department Spokesperson Jen Psaki on whether Azerbaijan is to blame for the ceasefire violation: ‘We understand there are views by both sides, but I don’t have any comment from the U.S. Government on it.’

Psaki reiterated that the State Department was committed to helping both sides to increase efforts for a peaceful negotiation. “And naturally, retaliation, further violence, escalating tensions certainly does not help the effort,” she said.

When asked whether the State Department acknowledged that “it was Azerbaijan which violated the ceasefire [on Nov. 12], and also violated one of the main principles of peaceful settlement of the conflict, which is no use of force,” Psaki responded, “I don’t have any analysis of the exact events on the ground. We’ve seen the same reports. There are obviously comments and claims from both sides, but I don’t have any analysis beyond that.”

When the questioner persisted by adding “Azerbaijan shooting an Armenian vessel, then it’s pretty clear which party is violating the ceasefire,” Psaki responded, “We understand there are views by both sides, but I don’t have any comment from the U.S. Government on it.”

In the Diaspora, there have been statements of support for Artsakh from various organizations and communities on the one hand, and condemnations of the attack on the other.

When asked about the role of the Diaspora and whether he wished to convey a message to Armenian communities worldwide, Beglaryan first reassured that the situation is under control, and that the people of Artsakh are not in a panic. “As for what they should do? Support the Artsakh cause by raising the truth about the conflict and the latest incidents. In that context, Azerbaijan’s distortions and provocations in foreign countries should be targeted in an appropriate way,” he said, and added, “The diaspora is our huge potential in the field of information war, and that should be realized.”

Azerbaijan’s national heroes

The attack was not all that shocking, according to Beglaryan, as Azerbaijan’s track record has shown a willingness to escalate tensions and reward violence. “Certainly, Artsakh society is not surprised by the Azerbaijani actions, because a state that makes a hero out of a citizen that axes a sleeping Armenian officer could do anything against Armenians,” said Beglaryan, referring to the brutal murder of Armenian Lt. Gurgen Margaryan at the hands of Ramil Safarov at a NATO-sponsored Partnership for Peace program. Safarov was promoted from the rank of Lieutenant to Major upon his controversial extradition to Azerbaijan from Hungary, where he served a short prison term for his crime.

A protester holds the picture of Lt. Gurgen Margaryan on the 9th anniversary of his brutal murder. (Photo: Yerkir Media)
A protester holds the picture of Lt. Gurgen Margaryan on the 9th anniversary of his brutal murder. (Photo: Yerkir Media)

Incidentally, the Azeri Defense Ministry has already honored an officer with “a third degree medal For Distinguished Military Service” for shooting down the Mi-24 helicopter, reported Azeri sources.

Beglaryan said he feels confident in the NKR army. “[The army] demonstrated its preparedness on the front line only three months ago, and then during the latest military drill,” he told the Weekly. “I’m sure that it is completely ready to protect the security of the Artsakh Republic.”

Ceasefire violations, threats of war

The downed helicopter was on a training flight as part of joint Armenia-Artsakh military drills in the area. The “Unity 2014” exercises involved over 30,000 troops, 3,000 armored vehicles, artillery, and air defense units, according to the NKR Defense Ministry website.

An online campaign initiated by the ANCA after the escalation of violence and violent rhetoric by Aliyev's administration this summer.
An online campaign initiated by the ANCA after the escalation of violence and violent rhetoric by Aliyev’s administration this summer.

This year has seen an increase in violence on the contact line. In July and August, around half a dozen attacks were staged by Azerbaijan’s military, which left five Armenian and 13 Azeri servicemen dead.  At the height of tensions, Artsakh Prime Minister Ara Harutyunyan spent two nights on the front lines with soldiers, while hundreds came forward to volunteer. The attacks drew condemnation from U.S. State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf, which also gave way to criticisms accusing the Co-Chairs of maintaining an environment of impunity by failing to clearly blame one side, namely Azerbaijan. About a week after the attacks, Azerbaijan’s President Ilham Aliyev took to Twitter, where he threatened violence and declared war against the Republic of Nagorno Karabagh.

President Sarkisian and President Aliyev met in the presence of Russian President Vladimir Putin in Sochi, shortly after the eruption of violence in August.

President Aliyev habitually releases statements claiming that the state of Armenia was founded on Azerbaijani lands, and vows to “go back” to them through any means necessary.

 

Nanore Barsoumian

Nanore Barsoumian

Nanore Barsoumian was the editor of the Armenian Weekly from 2014 to 2016. She served as assistant editor of the Armenian Weekly from 2010 to 2014. Her writings focus on human rights, politics, poverty, and environmental and gender issues. She has reported from Armenia, Nagorno-Karabagh, Javakhk and Turkey. She earned her B.A. degree in Political Science and English and her M.A. in Conflict Resolution from the University of Massachusetts (Boston).
Nanore Barsoumian

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36 Comments

  1. Russia has not condemned Azerbaijan for shooting down the helicopter and killing 3 servicemen.
    In fact, the missile that was used probably was sold or gifted to Azerbaijan by Russia.

  2. Based on the contents of this report alone, two things should have happened already:

    1. The Azerbaijani attack outpost, attacking the downed helicopter deliberately and without any provocation, must have been taken out instantly at the time of the attack by the NKR forces which already was in combat-ready mode.

    2. It is true that these hostilities are being provoked by constant racist and bellicose remarks made by anti-Armenian, chicken-hawk and fake president of the artificial state of Azerbaijan Illham Aliyev. Given this fact, is it not time to cut the head of the poisonous snake responsible for all that has happened and continues to happen? I say it is long overdue!

  3. Is it sensible to fly so close to the line of contact to an enemy who constantly and vehemently violates cease fire even when there are no aircrafts flying near the border? I am not a military expert, but I am just baffled how and why the Armenian forces didn’t take any account of this. Maybe someone can explain?

  4. Very good point Vahe. What is the Armenian Lobby in Moscow doing if anything?! And what about Yerevan? Where is the “strategic partner” and what is it doing to help, if anything? In fact over the recent years it has been wooing Baku at Armenia’s expense. And Yerevan has allowed that to continue due to its weakness vis-à-vis Moscow’s imperial interests.

  5. Let’s not hope that the Minsk group will be more aggressive and condemn Azerbaijan – they have proven once again to be a “mickey mouse” organisation just like that other mob called the “UN”. They have no intention to prove or to do condemn Azerbaijan for the aggression. I wonder why? is it because they are part and parcel of the arms deals? military assistance? warfare tactics? who knows – there has to be an agenda. The US should stay out of it as they are partly to blame for the mess in the area. As far as I am concerned it is all a game these major powers are playing and I wonder for what? shame on them.

  6. for god sake do’nt you know azeris are bunch idiots and savages
    they have been firing bullets on a daily bases to armenian side for years and they don’t give a shit who thinks what

    why artsakh and armenian had to have a military drill so close to the
    azeris border and their direct direction the armenian hramanadar must be more heratec and responsible for this incident

    do not forget everytime when artsakh does something military exercise
    etc they are watching you the black snakes and holes of waspes
    armenia and artsakh be more vigilent

  7. (Vahe // November 14, 2014 at 2:26 pm //)

    {“ Russia has not condemned Azerbaijan for shooting down the helicopter and killing 3 servicemen.”}

    Yes, of course: everything is Russia’s fault.
    The criminals and terrorists in Baku are never at fault.

    So please list some of the Western countries with which you are so enamored with and which have condemned Azerbaijan.
    Shouldn’t be hard: there are dozens that have come out and strongly condemned Baku. And only Baku.

    You can skip US though: this is what Psaki said:
    {“Psaki responded, “I don’t have any analysis of the exact events on the ground. We’ve seen the same reports. There are obviously comments and claims from both sides, but I don’t have any analysis beyond that.”}

    It’s right there in Nanore’e article.
    What does “claims from both sides” mean ? Means US State Dept is clearly siding with the Azerbaijani terrorists, again.

    Now on to Russia.

    {“In fact, the missile that was used probably was sold or gifted to Azerbaijan by Russia.”}

    Gifted ? Hardly.
    Sold ? Sure. And ?
    If Russia had not sold it, you actually think no other country in the world makes MANPADs as good or better than the Igla ?
    Manufacturers line up to sell military hardware to loaded customers like Azerbaijan.
    During the July 28 – Aug 4 incursions, equipment captured from Turkbaijani invaders included Israeli made squad radio sets, and various other equipment.
    Six of our young men were KIA during those incursions.
    So Azerbaijan used Israeli military equipment, in part, to kill Armenians: how come nobody is complaining about that ?

    btw: same Russia has gifted and sold, at cost, lots, and lots, and lots of military hardware to RoA and NKR.
    Same Russia maintains a base in RoA, which tells Turkey to keep a healthy distance from RoA border, or else.
    Thus saving RoA the necessity to station several divisions, which it doesn’t have, on the border to block any incursion into RoA by Turkey – in support of their Turkic “One Nation, Two Countries” goons.

    Of course that would never happen, even if Russia did not have a base in RoA: Right ?

    • Avery, Armenia’s “true ally” was supposed to be RUISSIA. Your argument that ‘where is the West’ is already established and to be expected. The west unfortunately loves Zionist, oil, war and therefore Turks.. NOT Armenia. We just expect better form a so called “friend. Lets be clear: Russia is no true friend. Its serves ITS OWN PURPOSE. Like all politics.

    • Avery,

      So how should Russia have responded to the downing of the unarmed helicopter and killing of the crew? Isn’t Russia supposed to be our ally over Azerbaijan. Aren’t we in a military agreement and treaty with Russia? Russia gave the same half-assed response and Europe and the US and you’re making excuses on Russia’s behalf.

      Where does Russia stand on the independence of Artsakh?

      Whenever people point out Russia attitude towards Armenia’s and Artsakh’s situation and Azeri aggression, and the fact that they’re selling billions in new weapons to Azerbaijan, you and others make excuses.

      Azerbaijan is able to get weapons from Russia and Israel *because* they’re both saying “if we don’t sell them, they’ll just get them from somewhere else.” There was a recent interview with Israel’s ambassador to Armenia, and he gave this same excuse. And yes, there is an Israeli ambassador to Armenia, even though though there is no Israeli embassy in Armenia. Note that the US does not sell weapons to Azerbaijan. So it’s completely possible for countries to not sell to these guys.

      It’s as if you’re afraid to be critical of Russian policies with regard to Armenia. I don’t get it. Are you afraid of how Putin will react if he reads out posts on armenianweekly.com?

  8. All we Armenians are talking while running from country and talking of letting others take our countries decisions in their hands is just disgrace ,,true History and always been proved without fight you don’t get anything ! Big Bosses doing it everyday andwe are still asking UN to do our justice ,,IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN” they are corporates dirty powers all they care is Money coming from oil reach goverments to their personal accounts.” UNITE>WAR>HAGHTANAG” all Azerbayjan is ours only time world will recognise us when we get all Azerbayjan and our back to the sea will strength us in the world !!

  9. (Arshag // November 14, 2014 at 4:42 pm //)

    Arshag: I no military expert either, but will try to explain.

    When an incident like this happens, people who are not following goings on in the region regularly do not appreciate the overall context and the background.
    The men and women of NKR and RoA military and civilians leadership in charge of military affairs are.

    I read a bunch of stuff, including from English and Russian language sites from Azerbaijan (….don’t read Azerbaijani Turkish yet).
    Azerbaijan Air Force routinely sends their military helicopters and jets to skirt the LOC, to see how NKR or RoA will military react.
    They do not cross into Armenian air space, but come very, very close.

    They sent Israeli made drones into Armenian airspace, to see what defenses we have: one was brought down; I heard another was shot down, but am unable to find confirmation.

    So why would the Mi-24 fly so close to the LOC ?
    Let me ask you: what would you want the NKR military to do ? fly their Mi-24 gunships over their own beautiful mountains on sight-seeing tours ?
    The men and women of NKR and RoA military are training daily for war. Let me repeat: for war.
    The pilots also are training in situations as close to war as possible.
    When war breaks out, these pilots will do things automatically, without thinking: that is why you train.

    Next reason: if you start backing off from Azerbaijani challenges and attempts to intimidate Armenian military, then it will be much worse.
    They will get the idea that Armenians are weak, and might do even something more irrational, like mounting a full scale invasion.

    God bless the three warriors that gave their lives for the Motherland. But their sacrifice, although tragic, helped save many more lives of their buddies in any future conflict.
    Let’s not second guess the military or civilian leadership of either NKR or RoA. Nobody could expect the nuts in Baku to make this irrational blunder.
    Those same men and women of NKR and RoA dealt a crushing defeat to a vastly superior enemy: a barely believable, improbable victory for the Armenian Nation, against impossible odds.

    “Train hard, fight easy”
    Great Russian/Armenian general Alexander Suvorov.

  10. Baku’s intent, since last summer, has been to derail Yerevan’s upcoming membership in the Eurasian Union. This clearly was a provocation by Baku and it has geopolitical undertones. Yes, Armenia has to respond in some manner, but the response has to be measured/asymmetrical. We can’t start a war simply because that is what Turks want. Going forward, we need to better protect our forces and hit back at a time and manner of our choosing. Once Armenia becomes a full member in the Eurasian Union these provocations will gradually come to a halt.

    PS: Russians are a great help for Armenia in the west, the Turkish-Armenian border. We don’t need direct Russian help in Artsakh. Azerbaijan is something Armenia can easily handle.

  11. I would hope that from now on, there will be no more helicopter and aircraft training flights over by the Line of Contact. That was actually a very silly idea to conduct a military training flight within such a close range of those Azerbaijani terrorist snipers. These kinds of training flights should be conducted miles away from the Line of Contact.

    It is again disappointing that the Armenia/Artsakh leaderships have again chosen to not retaliate back at Azerbaijan for this latest act of terror. What kind of justice is this, that every time the Azeris commit these acts of terror against both Armenian soldiers and civilians, they always go unpunished for it? President Sargsyan needs to take action instead of being so gentle and persistently trying to please the Minsk Group, Europe, and United States who absolutely don’t care the slightest about the safety and human rights of the Armenian people. By continuing to take no action, President Sargsyan is enabling the Azerbaijani terrorist leader, Aliyev, to develop more and more confidence in both himself and his military. Furthermore, as a result of no retaliatory action by President Sargsyan up to now, President Aliyev must be fully confident by now that he can get away with committing terror acts against Armenians one after the other, and never be punished for it. That’s just not right! Enough is enough already! It’s time to fire back! It’s time to start shooting down those Azerbaijani military jets that fly near the Line of Contact. And it’s also time to start shooting down any kind of two-legged hyena that attempts to cross over onto the soil of Artsakh or Armenia.

  12. In the grand scheme of things, if Armenia wants to survive in peace, in prosperity and security for its future, its hopefully understanding that Turks will never be neighborly. Never. And therefore must be inclined to figure a way to eventually eradicate Turks around them once and for all. I mean these people murdered our nation for theft and still enjoy that massive crime till this day. How is that race even possibly ever neighborly? I know it seems crazy and an impossibility at the present moment, but Armenia needs to start a long term vision of ridding Turks completely. Because Im convinced that Turks, given a chance today, right now, would gladly and totally eradicate all of Armenia. If knew It could get away with it. And again, no neither Russia, Europe or the USA will do anything about it. Just a thought.

  13. {“Random Armenian // November 16, 2014 at 1:16 am //”}

    {“ Note that the US does not sell weapons to Azerbaijan. “}

    Random, US is not selling weapons to Azerbaijan, not because of its love for Armenia, but because diligent Armenian-American voters managed to have US Congress pass Section 907*.
    Since its passage, various US Presidents have attempted to circumvent it. However, ANCA has been very vigilant and has thwarted most attempts.
    That is the reason why US is not selling weapons to Azerbaijan: if they could, they would.
    (“Thank you” to our Jewish-American friends in US Congress for taking the lead on this).
    US is either #1 or #2 in international weapons sales. Used to be undisputed #1, but I think Russia caught up last year (…not 100% sure).
    So the Turkophile US Executive branch helps the criminals in Baku by other means: protects the Baki Neo-Nazis diplomatically and backs the goons against RoA and NKR.
    Anti-Christian, Anti-American traitors have infiltrated the US State Dept and are helping Radical Islamist Turkic goons murder Christians.

    Why does a country that has spare cash to spend $3.7+ BILLION a year purchasing offensive weapons (…to ethnically cleanse and exterminate indigenous Armenians of Caucasus) need _any_ military assistance, a gift, from US taxpayers.
    Why does a country that has spare cash to burn on grandiose buildings that sit unoccupied in Baku need _any_ assistance from overtaxed and cash strapped American taxpayers ?
    Azerbaijan’s Sovereign State Fund is sitting on about $40 Billion of cash and other liquid assets: why does US need to give them a dime ?
    The youngest member of the Aliyev Crime Syndicate, Heydar Jr, a child, has property in his name worth $10s of millions in Dubai.
    So, Random ‘Armenian’, are you afraid to criticize the Anti-Christian, Anti-American Neocons in US Fed Gov who are working against the interests of ordinary Americans and American taxpayers ?

    {“ Are you afraid of how Putin will react if he reads out posts on armenianweekly.com?”}

    Yes I am.
    Though I live in SoCal, far away from Moscow, there are these black cars with tinted windows following me everywhere I go.
    There is one parked at my curb right now.
    I have lined up my walls with thin sheets of lead (better than tin foil), but am I pretty sure those KGB types are reading the contents of my PC remotely and also my thoughts. You are not paranoid if they are really out to get you.

    —-
    *

    http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/184813/US_Congressman_calls_for_cessation_of_military_aid_to_Azerbaijan

    “I encourage President Obama to formally condemn this deadly attack. I am also calling for the cessation of any military assistance to Azerbaijan and the strengthening of section 907 of the FREEDOM Support Act, which restricts aid to Azerbaijan based on its aggression toward Nagorno Karabakh and Armenia. It is time for both the President and Congress to ensure that U.S. law once again holds Azerbaijan accountable for its violent actions. The families of those who were killed and all of Nagorno Karabakh’s citizens remain in my thoughts and prayers.”

    • You’ve avoided some of my points Avery. Why is Russia selling weapons against their Armenian ally when the US is not selling any weapons to Azerbaijan? Armenia is a regional and military ally of Russia, and a Christian nation (this seems to be important to you in your calculus of international relations even though it has zero weight when it comes to selling weapons).

      So what should Russia’s response have been to the downing of the Armenian unarmed helicopter? Some of the US members of congress had harsher things to say than Russia about this provocation.

      The argument you’re making is that we have more influence over US actions in this conflict than over Russia. I find that scary.

      I have no problems being critical of US policies and actions. And US policies and interests have nothing to do with being pro or anti-Christian. Seriously, Russia is the one selling weapons to muslim Azerbaijan which vows to kill Christian Armenians through resumption of war. What the US is doing pales in comparison with what Russia is doing in this conflict. And I see criticism from you on this. You’re oddly quiet about it.

      Should Russia be selling weapons to Azerbaijan? Isn’t the correct answer no? Azerbaijan has made it clear they have to qualms about killing Christian Armenians and essentially destroying Armenia, and Russia continues to sell weapons to them. Shouldn’t you be upset about this?

    • Edit to my above post:

      “I see *no* criticism from you on this. You’re oddly quiet about it.”

  14. Since everyone is playing military expert here, here’s my 2 cents. Armenia has a limited air force. Therefore the loss of a very capable helicopter and pilots with skills to fly them is a loss for Armenia’s military capability. Unless Armenia can replace this loss 2 or 3 fold, this will mean one less helicopter for Azerbaijan to deal with in a war. These helicopters can both transport troops and attack.

    Expect more such attempts from Azerbaijan. This could be a new strategy for them, attrition of Armenian military capability. And Azerbaijan can replace their losses much more easily than Armenia can given the petro-dollars and a willing seller like Russia.

    So what should Armenia’s response be? Shooting down Azeri planes which have been flying close to the border?

    • This was Artsakh Air Force helicopter. Since Artsakh is not recognized, it’s not a party to the Conventional Armed Forces in Europe (CFE) Treaty – no reporting requirements. Therefore, you and Azerbaijan don’t really know Artsakh’s military capability. Stop your empty threats.

  15. In regard to your claim that the United States does not sell military arms to Azerbaijan, how can you possibly be so sure of this? Just because the U.S. government stated this, does not necessarily mean it’s true. After all, the U.S. government lies about everything. As a matter of fact, back in the 1980’s when the U.S. was telling the whole world that Iran was a terrorist state and that they should therefore refrain from selling any kind of military weapons to the Iranians, guess what the dishonest, hypocritical United States was doing? It was secretly selling military arms to Iran behind everyone’s back. So, as a result, there’s probably a very good chance that the U.S. is also secretly selling military arms to the terrorist state of Azerbaijan, the same way that it has sold military arms to those various Islamic terrorist groups who commit terrorist attacks against Aleppo’s Armenian community.

    • Yes anything could be done in secret, but if the US was selling major arms to the Azeris, it would become apparent. It would be hard to hide big hardware from military experts.

    • Well, it certainly wasn’t hard for the United States to hide the “major arms” it was selling to Iran, back in the 1980’s. And when it comes to hiding the business activities it conducts with countries throughout the world, the U.S. happens to be a huge expert in this.

    • True, I don’t think it can be ruled out. And Azerbaijan bordering Iran, US would have an interest there. As well as the oil.

      But given how the Azeris are advertising Russian and Israeli weapons deals, I would think we would have heard about.

      I still don’t thin the US is selling major weapons such as tanks, plans and other major hardware to them. If they have any sort of offensive weapons from the US, they’re keeping it mighty secret, which I believe would go against international treaties.

    • “If they have any sort of offensive weapons from the US, they’re keeping it mighty secret, which I believe would go against international treaties.” Do you actually believe that Azerbaijan cares about international treaties? It continuously goes against international law in every possible way. Although the Azeris might not have American tanks or planes at the current moment, there is still a good chance that they might have other kinds of military equipment from the United States, such as those rifles being used by Azeri snipers in killing Armenian soldiers on the other side of the border. After all, due to the fact that the U.S. happens to have major oil interests in Azerbaijan and therefore favors it over the Armenian side, it would therefore be probable that the U.S. is also providing some sort of military support to President Aliyev.

  16. @Random,
    In regards to Russia selling weapons to Azerbaijan, Avery previously made some points about it which I think were correct, namely that if Azerbaijan must get weapons, it is better that Russia supply it because then Armenia would be at least familiar with the advantages and disadvantages of the weapons in question.

    A part of me does however question why Azerbaijan must be allowed to purchase any weapons at all, and why the two only relevant superpowers (US and Russia) have to agree that Azerbiajan has a right to re-arm, especially in light of the fact that it started an illegal war of aggression and attempted the genocide of the people of Artsakh and failed in those plans, ultimately begging for a cease-fire agreement. What is going to be Azerbaijan’s punishment for those acts of terrorism as a so-called “sovereign nation”? Again politics reigns supreme over justice and this is reminiscent how the allies defeated the Ottoman empire in WWI, only to supply it with weapons almost immediately afterwards.

    You should actually be outraged at Israel selling weapons to Azerbaijan more than Russia. Why is Israel, a country who has no business meddling in the Armenia-Azerbaijan conflict, unashamedly supplying terrorist Azerbaijan with weapons, making itself an official state sponsor of terror?

    • As for Israel. They get 40% of their oil from Azerbaijan (from what I’ve read) and there have been reports of Isreali drones spying on Iran from the Azeri side. So they have a bigger motivation to sell arms to them. On top of that, the arms sales are a bigger deal for tiny Israel than Russia who is a much larger exporter of arms.

      That said, I’m upset at both Russia and Israel for selling arms to the Azeris. They both have Azeri petrol-dollars stained with Armenian blood on them and they should not be selling arms to a country that is publicly making it clear they want to destroy another country. Of all the countries, Israel knows full well how it feels to be surrounded by enemies who would relish the destruction of their country.

      The point I made earlier with the US not selling arms to the Azeris was that it’s completely possible for a country to not sell arms to that. So I find the idea that “they can get their weapons from elsewhere” rather weak.

      At least Russia should not be selling arms to the Azeris out of conscience, knowing full well that they are enabling them to be able to restart the war against Christian Armenia. But they aren’t are they? They will be selling more tanks and planes and manpads to them in the coming years. Keep your eye on the news.

      And I don’t see Avery or other apologists not expressing any upset about this. I get the reality of the geopolitics of all that’s going on. But please, at least don’t make excuses on behalf of them.

    • {Random….As for your posts and the pattern I am noticing: somehow, it seems that you are eager to place Armenian issues to the highest most impeccable standards with no wiggle room at all, but don’t display the same passion, in fact you are absent altogether, when it comes to questionable and sometimes even blatant lies by others who post regarding their own ethnicities and cultures. Take for example your question in the other thread, “what do you mean by western values?”, it has dawned on me, what ‘Armenian’ who knows anything about being Armenian at all or who has grown up as one, would ask such an odd question? And when it is answered effectively, proceeds to change the subject by going off on a tangent. It just doesn’t make sense to me, and I doubt your claimed sincerity here, and I think your posts are disingenuous with suspicious motives behind them. But of course, this is just my opinion and not Lemkin’s.} (Hagop D // June 20, 2014 at 1:08 pm //)(turkish-denialists…-australian-parliament thread).

      We can and do post under a variety of names or monikers: no problem there; SOP for the web.
      We can also (try to) obscure our true motives behind incongruous monikers.
      But our advocacy, our core biases, our true allegiances reveal themselves at last after a sufficient number of comments have been posted.

      I have been reading the comments of the individual posting under “Random Armenian” for many years.
      In all that time, he has been very diligent in digging up dirt on Armenia, Artsakh, and Armenians.
      While at the same time being mum about dirt 100X worse that is present within enemies of our people.
      He has shown amazing tolerance towards Turkish viewpoints and an irrational hostility to Armenian viewpoints.

      Indeed, it makes no sense for someone who posts as “Random Armenian”, emphasis on ‘Armenian’.
      That too, is just my opinion.

    • “In all that time, he has been very diligent in digging up dirt on Armenia, Artsakh, and Armenians.
      While at the same time being mum about dirt 100X worse that is present within enemies of our people.
      He has shown amazing tolerance towards Turkish viewpoints and an irrational hostility to Armenian viewpoints.”

      Yes, there are other countries with the same issues but worse. So? How does that help Armenia? Many of us Armenians bring up the issues in Armenia because we want to see a better Armenia. And the first step is to talk about.

      What about other countries with the same issues but on smaller scales because they did something about it and thus suffer less from it?

      And no, I’m not setting an unattainable goal. Why should we not want an even better Armenia? Other countries have improved their situation. Should Armenia not be in that group?

      Many of the issues in Armenia are unsolvable, but can be reduced and dealt with better. Corruption and DV will always be there, but they can be reduced.

      Why do I or others have to point out and complain about issues in other countries? The problems in Armenia are hurting Armenia and our fellow Armenians, not the internal issues in other countries. We care about what’s going on in Armenia and speak up about it.

      You keep characterizing this as digging up dirt or somehow an attack on Armenia and Armenians, because you just can’t face some of these issues.

      As an Armenian male I have no problem with DV in Armenia being discussed with the hopes of it leading to reduction of DV. And I’m not the only Armenian man who thinks this way.

  17. Hagop,

    If Azerbaijan was under an arms embargo, than only Turkey would break that and sell arms to them. Then Armenia would be in a better position. Even though Turkey has been increasing its domestic military production, it does not have the full range of weapons, specially helicopters and planes, to sell to the Azeris. So Armenia would be in a better position if Russia and most other countries did not sell to them.

    Even if it was just Turkey and Israel selling the weapons, Armenia would still be in a better position.

    Russia makes a ton of money selling arms elsewhere, so they don’t really need to sell to the Azeris. Is Russia at least telling Azerbaijan that they can’t use the weapons they buy from them against Artsakh? Whoever sells weapons to the Azeris that kills Armenians have bloody money on their hands.

    Why is Russia, a supposedly kindred Christian country selling weapons to the Azeris that is used to kill Christian Armenians? Because money and business and geopolitics are stronger than religion. This is why I have a hard time taking people like Avery and others talking about the Christian connection between Russia and Armenia and how US policies are somehow anti-Christian. The US and Russia do not act on religious affiliation. Power, politics and money is what drives their foreign policy.

  18. For the record, US and British government trains Azeri snipers and Israel has provided Baku with billions in arms. Here are some facts to consider:

    American military contractors MPRI Inc is training Azeri marksmen: http://www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com/contract_detail.asp?contract_id=81

    US Naval Special Ops Demos Training in Azerbaijan: http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=26294

    The Sunday Times: British special forces carried out secret trainings in Azerbaijan: http://www.panorama.am/en/society/2013/10/21/sunday-times/

    Azerbaijan Makes Massive Israeli Weapons: http://www.eurasianet.org/node/65053

    Is a US-Financed Azeri Satellite A Threat to Armenia’s Security?: http://asbarez.com/94756/is-a-us-financed-azeri-satellite-a-threat-to-armenia%E2%80%99s-security/

    Turkish Jets to Deliver American Nuclear Warheads, Report Says: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-given-possession-of-nuclear-warheads-report-says.aspx?pageID=238&nID=8220&NewsCatID=33

    Azerbaijan is a former Soviet republic. Azerbaijan has normal relations with Russia. Therefore, it’s natural that most of the arms it possesses will be Soviet/Russian made. And whether we like it or not, Azerbaijan is also a sovereign republic that has the right to maintain a military. More importantly, Azerbaijan has the petrodollars to purchase whatever it wants, from whomever it wants. How it uses that cash and how it uses its military is another matter.

    At the end of the day, had Moscow not been providing Armenia with modern yet affordable weaponry to Armenia – often times for free – Armenia would have long disappeared from the map of the south Caucasus. No Russia in Armenia = no Armenia in the south Caucasus. Period.

    • {“Director of the Public Political Studies Center Vladimir Yevseyev said that if Russia stops selling arms to Azerbaijan, Israel, the US or somebody else will start doing it. “So, Armenia should be interested in Azerbaijan’s buying arms from Russia as the Russians know their arms and will be able to help the Armenians with ‘antidotes’ if need be. There is no evil design in these supplies. Russia is not going to abandon Armenia. All it wants is just peace in the region,” Yevseyev said.”}

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