Road to Zuar in Artsakh: A Photographic Journey

The village of Zuar in Artsakh (Nagorno Karabagh Republic), situated near the Tartar stream in the Tutkhuni valley, 40 kilometers from Kalvachar, was founded in June 1997. With a population under 100, the locals make their living by animal farming and making honey. Because of the village’s proximity to “Tak Jur” (Hot Springs”), the area has become one of the centers for Artsakh tourism.

Astghashen. We arrived at Zuar later than anticipated, having stopped at the many beautiful sites on the way.
Astghashen. We arrived at Zuar later than anticipated, having stopped at the many beautiful sites on the way.

 

 

Dadivanq (located on the forested base of Mt. Mrav, on the left side of the Tatar river) from the 5-13th century.
Dadivanq (located on the forested base of Mt. Mrav, on the left side of the Tatar river) from the 5-13th century.

 

The ancient monastery complex of Dadivanq.
The ancient monastery complex of Dadivanq.

 

The road stretches along Tutkhuni.
The road stretches along Tutkhoun.

 

The village was peaceful and sunny (Zuar).
The village was peaceful and sunny (Zuar).

 

 

The villagers moved from the Republic of Armenia (from regions such as Jermuk, Armavir, Hrazdan, and others).
The villagers moved from the Republic of Armenia (from regions such as Jermuk, Armavir, Hrazdan, and others).

 

A home on the highest point of the village.
A home on the highest point of the village.

 

The homemaker does not complain about the village chores. “Everything is available for working people. There are problems, as well…”
The homemaker does not complain about the village chores. “Everything is available for working people. There are problems, as well…”

 

The school was preparing for the winter season.
The students play soccer here.

 

We finally reached “Hot Springs,” a truly natural hot spring.
We finally reached “Hot Springs,” a truly natural hot spring.

 

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Arevik Danielian

Arevik Danielian is a 21-year-old photographer born and raised in Stepanakert. She contributes monthly articles and photographs to the Armenian Weekly.
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47 Comments

    • I visited Dadivank in 2011. The scenery at the monastery and around the Tartar River leading to Dadivank is breathtaking, although the main road along the River was not in great shape. Once near the site, there were no official roads leading to Dadivank, but only a network of uphill mountain dirt roads which happened to be quite challenging. Every Armenian visiting Artsakh should visit this place; but help from local authorities in the form of basic road signage or experienced guides would be greatly appreciated to help people get there safely.

  1. Before your celebrate these pictures, a moral person must keep in mind the plight of the 10,000 Azeri refugees evicted from their ancestral homes through a military force by ARmenians. You should also care to know that it is a direct violation of the Geneva Convention to re-populate occupied territories prior to a neogiated settlement. And there are UN resolutions calling Armenian to withdraw from these lands. But of course you guys dont seem to care about international role, drunk as you are with the mythology of Great Armenia.

    Well, enjoy these pictures and lands … their rightful owners have not gorgotten their homes, now being occupied by the invaders who never built them or the trees in their garden. And when we come back, the invaders will flee back to where their came from: their real homes in Armenia. By the way, the presence of an old Church there is not a proof of Armenian ownership. It is disgusting how you guys try to claim Albanian stuff to be Armenian, as if ALbania never existed. By definition, Albanians could not be ARmenian, because Armenians are Armenian. SO where did Albanians evaporate? The truth, denied by the invaders, is that they become the ancestors of the modern Azeris.

    So come on on, do please englighten me as to why Kelbadjar is an ancient Armenian land. But please provide some objective proof.

    In the meantime, here is an extract from the Wikipedia entry on Kalbadjar:

    “Armenian and Karabakh forces conquered Kalbajar the Nagorno-Karabakh War, due to its strategic location between the former Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast and Armenia.[2] Human Rights Watch findings concluded that during the Kelbajar offensive Armenian forces “committed several violations of the rules of war, including forced displacement of the civilian population, indiscriminate fire, and the taking of hostages.”[3] This capture was condemned by the UN Security Council.[1]””

    • Kerim,

      Do you have any idea were Caucasian Albania was? Look at the map please and tell me if NKR is in C. Albania?

      http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

      We should ask you where Caucasian Albania evaporated because it is you who live in their territory not us? In this age of internet you can not tell lies as you please. I know that Axeris have been entertaining the idea of Armenian churches being Albanian, but you as an individual, are free to educate yourself.

      Non of Armenian churches are Albanian. Now that you have learned where C. Albania was tell us where Albanian churches are?

    • Azerbaijan’s Caucasian Albania propaganda has gotten really out of hand. Some of the extremists claim every church in Armenia as well as Karabagh is Caucasian Albanian. One nutcase even claimed the Georgian Davit Gareja monastery (on the Georgian-Azeri border) was Caucasian Albanian. And of course they also claimed the khachkars in Nakhchivan were Caucasian Albanian (so they had the right to destroy them, then??).

      The Karabagh conflict has given way to a disturbing race-hate within Azerbaijan. How can you live alongside people who not only hate you, but deny your very existence? I don’t think the conflict can be resolved until there is something like an Azerbaijani perestroika… the Azerbaijani identity that was fostered during the Soviet period is assimilationist in nature and does not take into account that Azerbaijanis are a composite of peoples, not just Turks. What’s funny is that the Azerbaijani government itself is going about it all the wrong way. Azerbaijani government websites actually include anti-Armenian racism and propaganda such as that quote attributed to Alexander Pushkin (actually uttered by a Muslim character from one of his stories). And yet they say Armenians will be treated with great care and protection if the Karabagh conflict is resolved. Yeah, right.

    • Kerim,

      You have to admit, those churches look perfectly like an Armenian church. For comparison, please see the church on Akhtamar island. It was build in 915AD.

      Those are Armenian churches.

    • The occupation of other people’s lands is not OK and that’s why we fought to liberate the ancient Armenian lands occupied by pseudo-Turkish Axerbaijanis. I can’t wait for the day when our discussions will focus on the occupied ancient Armenian territory of Nakhichevan when we liberate that as well.

      Unlike the Ottoman-invented artificial Axerbaijan of 1918, Armenia was an ancient kingdom of thousands of years. The resurrected Armenian Republic of 1918 and the newly independent Republic of Armenia both were and are the continuation of and successor to Armenian nationhod but only with a fraction of Armenia’s actual and historic territories. Axerbaijan is a fabricated country of less than a 100 years and claiming the formerly Axerbaijani occupied Armenian territories as Axerbaijani lands is laughable.

      Armenians are not occupiers, they are liberators. We don’t have our eyes on other people’s lands like the Turks with their insatiable wolf-like appetites who have plundered, occupied and terrorized countless nations for the last five centuries. The liberated territory of Artsakh (Karabakh) and the occupied territory of Nakhichevan exchanged hands administratively against the will of the Armenian people under the iron fists of the Soviet Union but never under the independent Axerbaijan. This fact alone makes Axerbaijani claims null and void, not to mention that these territories have always been part of the Armenian nationhood thousands of years before the invention of the fake Axerbaijani republic.

      Quit acting like victims and humanitarians. You are neither. True victims don’t hold hands with genocidal Turks and in unison deny the state-sponsored and systematic annihilation of 1,500,000 Armenian women and children and the destruction of their ancient civilization from the ancient Armenian homeland in Eastern Anatolia. Actions speak louder than words. Your crafty hollow words are poisonous and your actions show your true face. Today’s Armenia occupies no more than 10% of its historic territories. The rest is under Turkish occupation in the west and given away to the artificial state of former Axerbaijani SSR by the Soviets in the east in accordance to their evil divide-and-rule policies.

      A dysfunctional organization such as the UN, with its empty resolutions, can’t be anything but corrupt when it is 80% financed by the west and the western companies are heavily invested in Axerbaijani oil industry. If the UN was truly a functional organization and existed 100 years ago, there would neither be Turkey nor Axerbaijan today and Armenia would be whole without 1,500,000 murdered Armenians.

      If I was in charge of the Armenian military I would acquire and install nuclear weapons and would not leave one Turkish occupier standing anywhere within the historic Armenian homeland covering both the South Caucasus and Asia Minor currently under Turkish and pseudo-Turkish Axerbaijani occupation.

      Armenia must recover every inch of its historic homeland no matter how long it takes. We must and will liberate and restore our homeland in its entirety. It is just a matter of time. Genocidal Turkish baby killers and occupiers are not welcomed on our homeland and they will be crushed.

    • Throughout history, Armenian rulers have extended their presence mainly from the Euphrates River in the south-west, to the Kura River in the north-east and Arax River in the south-east.. Armenians have not crossed north of the Kura. The historic Armenian Artsakh territory extended from the Kura R in the north to the Arax R in the south, with no Azeri ancestry whatsoever living in there.

    • “If I was in charge of the Armenian military I would acquire and install nuclear weapons and would not leave one Turkish occupier standing anywhere within the historic Armenian homeland covering both the South Caucasus and Asia Minor currently under Turkish and pseudo-Turkish Axerbaijani occupation.”

      Ararat,

      Are you suggesting Armenia acquire and launch nukes into western Armenia killing any and all Turks there?

      I don’t even know why I’m even responding to this.

  2. Kerim Azeris live in the Iranian province of Azerbaijan or Atorpatakan, South of Arax (Araz) River. You lot are Turco-Tatars who migrated to the Caucasus from 12 century onwards with various invading Turkic-Seldjuk-Mongol and Tatar tribes. The country you call “Azerbaijan” was never called that until 1918.

    As far as occupation and displacement of people is concerned I think you should know a thing or two about Shahumyan, Getashen and parts of Martuni and Martaker regions of Artsakh which are under Baku regime’s occupation and all the original Armenian populations expelled – just like Nakhijevan and Artsvashen which are occupied Armenian lands where 100% of the Armenian population has been driven out by Baku.
    PS: TO THE EDITOR; Please note it is TARTAR RIVER (AND NOT Tatar stream); Also it is KaRvachar (NOT KaLvachar).

  3. I put myself into your position, when Armenians were a CHristian nation and azeri Turks ancestors were in the steps of Altai mountain grazing their cattle and sheep, even Allah’s messenger was not born yet!!!! Why you are so envy of God’s given Church like this? don’t you like this beautiful picture?? I wonder if you can send one Armenian Church picture left over from Nakhichevan??

    Kerim khan, go find your real ancestor’s family tree, you may end up having an Armenian father or mother, way before Turkic tribes invasion, and stop pretending, that you are a tatar turk!! Right now Human Rights are watching your beloved Sheikhdom where your handsome oil digger destroying more people, than ever before!! UN Security Council voted by 43 corrupted Muslim nations (minus Iran) and it is not accountable, for civilized world!!

  4. To those of you who claim that the Armenian occupation of Azeri lands is ok because it is all “historical Armenian land” … here is a question to you. Why is it that UN and all other organizations do not buy this argument in justifying your de-possession of Azeris? Two possibilities: for international law, it does not matter who owned the land 1000 years ago! (even if you are right about you owning back then); or it is not feasible to adjudicate such claims even if they were deemed relevant; or if this pandorra’s box was opened, then the world would be in total chaos, because the nations would line up in drove to take over neigbors’ lands simply because the think they owned it 1300 years ago (or you choose your arbitarily chosen point in history); or any combination of the two.

    So, who are we going to believe in terms of what is wrong or right … an international organization representing nearly every country in the world, with a mandate to judge such matters, or the invador with, naturally, a bias to interpret history their way? Imagine putting this to question on a referendum in the world. US, for one, would predominantly vote for Azerbaijan’s position, because if needed they can be reminded that if they go the “alleged historical” route, then Mexico would take back CA, TX, and guess what else. Russia would certainly take our side too, with all of its multi-ethnic composition.

    @Hagop, we do not hate Armenians because they are Armenians. It is silly call us racists towards Armenians. Whether you like it or not, we both look the same. We hate you because you have taken over our homes, and created 600k refugess (not countng the ones evicted from Armenia)

    • “We hate you because you have taken over our homes, and created 600k refugess (not countng the ones evicted from Armenia)”

      What about 500.000 Armenian refuges created by your country? What about their houses left in you country?

    • Nope, I still don’t buy it. There is very real (state-sponsored) racism coming out of Azerbaijan. It is probably why most of the countries and organizations you mentioned have maintained the status quo.

      Kerim, whether you — or the UN — likes it or not, secessionism is a reality in global politics. Did you know that the Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic recognized The “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus”? Oh, so it’s okay when Turks declare their own republic, but not Armenians? And unlike the Turks, Armenians formed the demographic majority in the Nagorno-Karabakh Autonomous Oblast.

      The Azeri refugees can return once they and their government decide not to serenade axe murderers and post racist propaganda on their governmental websites.

  5. Dear Armenians who claim Azeris do not belong to where they currently live:

    It was ok to make this kind of allegations before the age of fast DNA sequencing. Now, the science is out. I know it will take a couple of more years for this to sip in, although I doubt it, because throughout history people have been fond of ignoring scientific evidence when it does not suit them. And it is scientific proven now that modern Azeris’ DNA and blood belogn to the region. And these are not Azeri scientists who have determined this. But you know who? Ready for this … here we go: Just look at the name of the authors, my friends:

    Levon Yepiskoposian, Shot Margarian, Laris Andonian, and Vahid Rashidvash. “The Location of Azaris on the Patrilineal Genetic Landscape of the Middle East (A Preliminary Report).” Iran and the Caucasus 15:1-2 (2011): pages 73-78. The Azeris are more closely related to neighboring peoples than to Central Asians. They are mostly an Iranian people who adopted a Turkic language. Abstract:

    “The origin of the Turkic-speaking population of the north-western provinces of Iran, the so-called Azaris, is the subject of long-year debate. Here, we present preliminary results on testing of several hypotheses concerning their origin: 1) the Azaris are the descendants of the Turkic ethnic groups migrated from Central Asia; 2) they have an autochthonous origins; 3) they are of Iranian origin; and 4) they have mixed ethnic origin with unknown proportions of source populations’ contribution. The results show that Azaris have much weaker genetic affinity with the populations from Central Asia and the Caucasus than with their immediate geographic neighbours. Relying on these outcomes one can suggest that language replacement (change) with regard to Azaris occurred through ‘elite dominance’ mechanism rather than ‘demic diffusion’ model.”

    Or this,
    L. Andonian, S. Rezaie, A. Margaryan, D. D. Farhud, K. Mohammad, K. Holakouie Naieni, M. R. Khorramizadeh, M. H. Sanati, M. Jamali, P. Bayatian, and Levon Yepiskoposyan. “Iranian Azeri’s Y-Chromosomal Diversity in the Context of Turkish-Speaking Populations of the Middle East.” Iranian Journal of Public Health 40:1 (2011): pages 119-123. 100 unrelated Turkic-speaking Azeri males from northwestern Iran were tested on their Y-DNA. Conclusion:

    “The imposition of Turkish language to this region was realized predominantly by the process of elite dominance, i.e. by the limited number of invaders who left only weak patrilineal genetic trace in modern populations of the region.”

    Check out this link. It has more such studies:
    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/azeris.html

    So next time, you blurt out nonsense about Azeris coming from Mongolia, you have now been served: you are being an ingorant!

    • It’s the Azerbaijanis themselves who prefer seeing their country as a Turkic monolith rather than a multiethnic mosaic. Armenian and Iranian scientists have always been saying that the Azeris are Turkish-speaking Iranic peoples… it’s the Azeris in the Republic of Azerbaijan that the ones most often disputing this!

  6. Kerim, you do not agree with the argument for historical ownership, fine, then you surely cannot complain about another nation conquering lands in a war, since that is how much of the areas in Anatolia/Caucasus came to be under Turkish (and today Azeri) control. Except turks acquired those lands not even through a just war but by ethnic cleansing and murder. While on the other hand we rightfully liberated our ancestral homes and not even “conquered” per se. Even though the latter would still be acceptable by your standards. Now you are presented with two options – one we have rightful historical ownership to these lands or if you deny that or don’t see it as a justifiable reason, then we took the sword like your ancestors did and “conquered.” Either way whatever you utter from now on will be hypocritical words. And be careful what you say, for whatever you have said thus far can easily be used against you in a case for Armenian possession of these lands.

  7. Kerim you are so lucky that even your own ridicule comments printed in AW and ours completely ignored!! I hope AW will print this one:

    “Azeris deeply believe they are the “descendants of the Caucasian Albanians”, yet you see how proud and how out loud they speak about their “Turkic origins”, yet the CAs had nothing to do with the Turks, Turks are Altaic by origin and ethnicity…CAs are well, Caucasians. You cannot be two things at the same time, SPECIALLY when those two things are so apart from each other…not only ethnically, but historically and territoriality. It’s very curious how they behave, they change their identity molding it according to the situation and how it can benefit them. They’re Turks when they speak about their origins, the brotherhood of Turkic nations, want to get support from Turkey, …they are Caucasian Albanians when they want to claim the ancient territories of Artsakh or Arnenian own lands (along with our culture, etc.)…and they are Azeries when they want to claim the territories of Northern Iran/Azerbaijan. That’s a serious identity disorder. But in all times, Azeris claim to be Turks, so that’s what they are…Turks, not CAs or Iranian people (Persians), but Turks. Turks cannot claim presence in the region before 10th-11th AD. So it’s clear who they are. They are Turks, not Caucasian Albanians”

    “Tales from The Caucasus” or just “The Caucasus” by
    Thomas-Alexander Dumas (father) in 1859, the writer mentions the life of the peoples from the Caucasus from a trip he made, and he states very clearly, what ethnic there are :

    He clearly mentioned , Armenians, Georgians, and the Tartars. Now, are these the Tartars from Tartarstan in Russia? No, he’s referring to the Caucasus. It just seems name of Azeri was not mentioned by ANYONE, not even foreigners and visitors, as an ethnic group in the Caucasus up until 1920s and 1930s or in general Soviet times. Also curious is the fact, that the riots during 1918-1920 in the Caucasus (which the Azeris claim to be their “genocide”) are named generally by historians Armenian-Tartar (present day Azerbaijanis) conflict. It is weird that people who were used to be named with one name, then came to be known with another, and in a really short period of time. Either all Tartars were deported and/or killed and people from Northern Iran ( Azarbajan) took their place, or simply the name was later put on them. And at the same time it is also curious that the people from Northern Iran Azarbaijan or Azerbaijanis claim themselves to have no relation to the Azeries from Azerbaijan.

  8. Kerim,

    There is no question Azeris are mostly Iranics, but the fact that Iranics weren’t the Caucasian Albanians who truely belongs to Azerbaijan along with Georgians and Armenians indicates they were reduced to handfull of Udies.

    Also, how can Artsakh(Karabakh be Azeri ancestoral land if it was majority Armenian for most of its history????

    And looking into the human ancestory map, it looks like most people do relate one way or another by sharing haplotypes. However, it is the ratio that differs. iranics have closer haplotype to central asians who are mix of mongoloid/Iranic/tocarian than they do to caucases. Because Caucases have closer link to Western Europeans by having significant R1b than Azeris who are only 10%.

    Also, Including the whole caucases was an Ancient persian satrapy which subjugated the locals. I think it was called Atrapakan, (resembeling Azerbaijan). The name Azerbaijan might of existed in the last 500 years or so, but not before 1000 years ago. I seriously want to know where does the name Azerbaijan come from. It is puzzle for me.

    In appose to that, the Georgians and Armenains have consistant and prominanat ancestory in the area going back milleniums. I don’t think the stone hanges within Armenia belong to Azeri ancestors going back 7000 years ago if we also share genetic closeness to later builders of European stone hanges than any of our neighbors. R1b =30% , highest haplotype in Armenian poppulation.

    Even if Azeris are Iranic and Caucases, they have political and cultural affinity to central asians undoubtly. Their whole personality revoloves around joining turkic nations and reliant to Turkic nations.

    The Turkish genepole is significantly composed of their subjugated ottoman nations. does that mean Turkish have the right to the land they stole?

    One thing Turkics were better than other empires was to completely Amalgamate their subjects and incorporate them into Turkic tribes. This mentality is Turkic, meaning they completely turn the original poppulation into the redundant Turkic poppulations.
    You think Kazakistan was a Turkic land?
    You think Torkemenistan was a Turkic land?
    They became those, so the Turkic history is numbered for them. The original Turkics came form Alatai rgion of Mongolia.

    So, when you say Karabakh was your ancestoral land, in the name of Iranics then that raises a question. Where are the Iranians, caucasian Albanians? Where are they.

    Haplotypes of Iran, Azerbaijan, and Russia and Eastern Europe have high R1a Maybe you want to claim that Romanians and Bulgarians are also from caucases. I would bet that holds more truth.

  9. Kerim you either 1) have not read fully; 2) have not understood/misunderstood; or more likely 3) are deliberately distorting (pan-Turkist/Ankara and Baku style) the DNA study you are referring to (Prof. Levon Yepiskoposyan and Dr Larisa Andonian, etc.). I know this study quite well as Dr Andonian is my sister-in-law, and I was indirectly instrumental in introducing her to Prof. Yepiskoposyan of Yerevan University for her PhD study in genetics some ten years ago.
    Going through the study again – including through the link you have provided – it is quite clear that the study’s sample was “100 Azeris living in Tabriz”, i.e. the provincial capital of Azerbaijan the North-Western province of Iran and NOT the shikhdom or Emirate of Baku and its MAIN PURPOSE was to prove that the IRANIAN AZERIS are genetically and ethnically no different than the rest of the Iranian peoples (and very close to the Kurds) although they speak a Turkic-Oghuz language which the study proves was imposed by invading elite groups (Seljuk-Tatar-Turkmen, etc.) from Central Asia. The study proves this thesis successfully.
    “Abstract
    Background: The main goal of this study was to conduct a comparative population genetic study of Turkish speaking Iranian Azeris as being the biggest ethno-linguistic community, based on the polymorph markers on Y chromosome.
    Methods: One hundred Turkish-speaking Azeri males from north-west Iran (Tabriz, 2008-2009) were selected based on living 3 generations paternally in the same region and not having any relationship with each other. Samples were
    collected by mouth swabs, DNA extracted and multiplex PCR done, then 12 Single Nucleotide Polymorphisms (SNPs) and 6 Microsatellites (MS) were sequenced. Obtained data were statistically analyzed by Arlequin software.
    Results: SNPs and Microsatellites typing were compared with neighboring Turkish-speaking populations (from Turkey and Azerbaijan) and Turkmens representing a possible source group who imposed the Turkish language during 11-15th centuries AD. Azeris demonstrated high level of gene diversity compatible with patterns registered in the neighboring Turkish-speaking populations, whereas the Turkmens displayed significantly lower level of genetic variation. This rate of genetic affiliation depends primarily on the geographic proximity.
    Conclusion: The imposition of Turkish language to this region was realized predominantly by the process of elite dominance, i.e. by the limited number of invaders who left only weak patrilineal genetic trace in modern populations of the region”.
    This same thesis was advanced nearly a century earlier by the great Azeri historian/linguist Ahmad Kasravi (born Tabriz-Iranian Azerbaijan 1890 killed 1946 by a fanatical muslim extremist). A truly prolific writer on many aspects of Iranian history and culture he argued that Iranian Azeris were an Iranian people whose original old Azeri was an Iranian (Indo-European) language similar to Kurdish and the Turkic language that they spoke was imposed by elite nomadic Turko-Tatar invaders from central Asia from 11th to 15th centuries! Please note that Kasravi is a major hate figure for pan-turkists who do not like his scientific findings relating to the Azeris of Iran – that the latter are ethnically and genetically Iranian although they speak Turkic.
    Here’s a relevant section of his biography from Wikipedia: “Kasravi is known for his solid and controversial research work on the ancient Azari language. He showed that the ancient Azari language was an offshoot of Pahlavi language. Due to this discovery, he was granted membership of the London Royal Asiatic Society and American Academy.[2]

    Arguing that the ancient Azari language had been closely related to Persian language and the influx of Turkic words began only with the Seljuq invasion, Ahmad Kasravi believed that the true national language of Iranian Azerbaijan was Persian and therefore advocated the linguistic assimilation of Persian in Azarbaijan.[3] In 1927-8 Ahmad Kasravi led the way in establishing the ancestry of the Safavids dynasty with the publication of three influential articles, and disputed the validity of the ‘official’ Safavid family tree contained in the Safvat al-Safa, and argued convincingly that the ancestors of Shaykh Safi al-Din, who founded the Safavid Order (tariqa), were indigenous inhabitants of Iran. Today, the consensus among Safavid historians is that the Safavid family hailed from Persian Kurdistan.[1]“

  10. The Azeri people attach themself to the Turkish branch so it isn’t important if they were Persians some 5 century ago. Please try not to apply your Armenian logic in every situation which dooms to fail to understand the facts on the ground

    • At least it is logic not denial. It is meant to mean something you are having hard time handling.
      Thanks to AW for posting your joke. lots of laugh….

  11. @Sella, yes, the plight of the 500K Armenians who have been evicted from Azerbaijan are a tragedy too. By the way, I was not including the 400K azeris kicked out of Armenia in my number. With them, our number would be more than 1million! So, yes, it is a tragedy for both sides. So let’s compromise and solve it. To me, objectively Baku is no less of a hometown to an Armenian who was born and grew up there than to an Azeri. I am sure at least some of them would love to at least visit their old streets, etc, once the animosity is gone and even move back if they so desire. My point is that all this talk “Azeris are Mongolians” is at the core of lack of compromise, because most Armenians do not think they have done anything wrong by taking over these lands (outside of Karabak proper), because they have convinced themselvs that the ancestors of their victims did not own these lands anyways.

    @Hagop, yes, there is a state-sponsored animosity towards Armenians. Note that I did not say state-sponsored racism. This animosity however is not based on “Let’s hate them BECAUSE they look a certain way or they are Armenians,” but based on our territorial dispute. There is a huge difference. You cannot call everything racism. It is plain and simple: if you kick people out of their homes and make them refugees, you can count on them hating you for THAT.

    Regarding on the Turkic ideology of Azerbaijan … But let’s get first thing first. There is an underlying assumption in your thinking that somehow a group of people who have been called the same thing for a longer time period is better than a group of people who have assimilated. Nations can form and evolve, but they does not mean that its members descended from thin-air. According to the DNA studies, the Azeri gene pool is no more foreigner to Caucasus than others. See, the German nation too is a relatively new comer to the world stage. Are you suggesting that the people who live their somehow have an illegitimate claim to their homes? Are you for example saying that the modern Turks who were Armenians in the past came from Mongolia? Will your cousens in Yeravan take over their homes too?

    I think you guys selectively put a disproportionately hefty weigh on “Well, we have been called the same name for much longer than you have.” Ok, fine. But so what? None of that proves that your ancestors, and not mine, owned the land on which I now live, regardless of whether my ancestors at the time were called Albanian, Persian, or whatnot. That is for the DNA studies to determine, and they have spoken. So please stop the BS.

    • You have misunderstood what I have said. I am saying that the Azerbaijani ethnos is assimilationist and does not acknowledge its minorities (Avar, Lezgin, Kurds, Talysh) and instead seeks to assimilate them. This is also its policy toward Armenians and Armenian cultural heritage within Azerbaijan. Whether this is from a desire to become “monoethnic” like Armenia or adopt the assimilationist policies of Turkey I am not sure.

      And please do not tell me that the quotes put on Azerbaijani governmental websites that post anti-Armenian quotes like that distorted Pushkin one is not state-sponsored racism. Let’s call it what it is. Armenians were also kicked out of their homes and made refugees but you won’t find Armenian government websites promoting racism. Armenians will not allow people who so blithely flattened the Nakhichevan khachkar gravesite to live alongside them. Period. It is up to Azerbaijan to prove it is not a racist, assimilationist state if they want Armenians (especially those in Nagorny Karabagh, who aren’t going anywhere) to reconsider.

    • About this proposal that Armenians should give back the liberated lands outside of (Karabakh proper); I have to refer you to (I believe) the last meeting between Obama Netanyahou, at the white House, where Obama got a history lesson about his cheerleading of the 1967 borders, that shut him up, and gave him a very sad demeanor on TV. Since that day the issue has been put to rest and removed from Obama’s agenda. What did Netanyahou say to Obama? One word: 67 borders are not defendable!

      Now to all those Azeri agents who try to drum up support for the return of the lands surrounding Karabakh, in exchange for eternal peace and tranquility? Sorry it cannot happen; simply because Karabakh and Armenia proper would not be defendable, Armenians everywhere would not allow this to happen and no impartial country is interested in providing military resources to guarantee Karabakh’s security by creating demilitarized buffer zones etc. Besides, historic Karabakh always extended from the south bank of the Kura River, to the north bank of the Arax River, and was inhabited by Armenians centuries before and after the Gulistan Treaty of 1813. Historic Albania, was located at the north bank of the Kura River.

      Armenians have chosen to take the security of their borders in their own hands. Please remember, giving back land would make our borders “not defendable”. It will not happen.

  12. Bagratuni, I am not sure I follow you. I understood the article the exact same way you are describing. The main message of that particular article was the modern Iranian Azeris did not really come from Mongolia but adopted the Turkic language. And yes, it was a small sample from a particular region. But all studies have such limitations. I was mentioning that article as one example. There are many many more, all COLLECTIVELY disproving the claim that the ancestors of modern Azeris did not belong to the region. Here is another one, which is more objective than the Iranian and Armenian authors, because they don’t have an ulterior motive (e.g., Iranians trying to prove that they don’t really have an ethnic minority issue, etc). See the link below.

    But first, someone mentioned about Azeris not having the same ratio of R1b as Armenians. First, even if this is true, it does not mean Armenians belong to Caucasus more, because the assumption would be that R1b itself is more Caucasian and its alternatives (note that Caucasus does not necessarily equal Western EU). Also, this finding itself was based on a small population in Tabriz. You have to look at the totality of DNA evidence, and there is, again, indisputable evidence accumulation that Azeris are as much home at where they live than are our neighbors.

    Here is an article from a professional journal named Annals of Human Genetics:
    Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Variation in the Caucasus
    http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Caucasus_big_paper.pdf

    Here is a brief extract:
    “In particular, Caucasus groups speaking non-Caucasian languages (i.e., Indo-European speaking Armenians and Turkic speaking Azerbaijanis) grouped with their geographic neighbors in the Caucasus, and not with their linguistic neighbors elsewhere”

    Again, this article too says the same thing: Turkishness is a linguistic/cultural imposition rather than genetic.

    Also, interesting to note, I kind like how you skip over the fact that Armenian language is not considered Caucasian at all. Georgians and Chechen etc, have such a language. But both Azeri and Armenian language are not. So if we are new-comers in Caucasus because of our language, so then are you! 

  13. Kerim,

    Although I was impressed by your genetic argument, there is no proof to ancient Azeri land in the caucases. Genetics asside, Azerbaijan is a Turkic nation with Turkic mentality rather than Iranic, Caucasian, or middle eastern.

    Maybe you want to explain to me why Azeris consider the kanenth of Iravan as Azeri ancient land? Where is the prove.

    Most Azeri monument within Azerbaijan which have Azerbaijani cultural achievements are mostly in modern hisotry and don’t go back more than maybe 500 years ago. And if different, than earlier holds more truth. Majority are howerever built in the 20th century and onward. Where is the ancientness of Azerbaijan. Who were Azeris called before that. And what did they stand for?

    When Soviet Union came to power, the bulsheviks needed Oil and gas. They also needed to make the Turks happy. I am sure the name Azerbaijan existed among the Turkish speaking people of that area before, but no trace of Azerbaijan. The Kanenth consept was an import from Torkemenistan which has its roots going to north west of China.

    Knowing that for Turkic people genetics is not their identity, rather their Turkic title is, indicates greate deal regarding their true identity.

    Let me present you few facts. Could it be that since the ancient Armenian cemeteries of Nakhijevan which were vandilized by Azeris would indicate that Azeri ancestory is from Nakhijevan’s ancient Armenians? And if so then why you destroyed it.
    Also, the Armenian poppulation of Karabakh have the highest of the high R1b in their poppulation. This means Karabakh is the heart of Ancient Armenia and Stepanakert is it’s capital.

    If one asks Azeri show me a anciet Azeri monument, the only thing you can point at is the pesian fortress built by ancient persian king. But, yet persians had no commonality other than maybe genetics with Azeris of Azerbaijan.

    Therefore, the south Azerbaijan, majoirity of whom consider themselves Persians or Iranaians are more aware and closer to their mother land than the post bulshevik northerners. Also, they can speak persian, which proves more so they are.

  14. How did the pictures turn into Azeri vs Armenia thing, Kerim go comment on appropriate pages and don’t copy and paste crap of the biased website, that you probably edit, since it seem like you work for Aliev directly, if not you are waste of space that spats out empty words, that say Azeri Azeri Azeri Azeri Azeri… World is using for the oil, once it’s done Aliev will run to England with the billions he stole and your nation will still remain poor and morally bankrupt, since you praise yourself so much.

    • It seems to me, that Sultan’s, Oxford graduated secretary, whose approval sealed by Buckingham Palace, who has a master degree in political science and Armenian history, is very busy writing “British style” essays for AW, where people like “kerim” delivering her messages like a faithful tatar-turk !! In the mean while, BP is doing the oily businesses as usual, in this wonderful oil Sheikhdom!!

  15. Mr Kerim, in fact for Armenians, “Caucasian” and “Caucasus” has no meaning, we have never described our land, culture or people this way. I am guessing this is mostly a Soviet invention to supposedly describe the “Kavkaz nations” of the Soviet Union, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan. These terms have meaning to those that are deficient in culture and a newly formed nationality and identity in order to lay claim on something which also means nothing in the full context of things.

    Our traditional Armenian homeland comprised of most of today’s Azerbaijan, norther Iran, all the way to northern Syria and northern Mesopotamia. Thus our homeland includes the southern part of the Caucasus, and our language is unique, our culture is unique and even our genetics. Where genetics are concerned, in antiquity Armenian settlers migrated from the Armenian Highlands to both Europe and Central Asia. We don’t need to answer to ANYONE, especially those who have been calling themselves “Azeris” for the past 100 years where history, language, lands and culture is concerned. We never stole anyone’s culture, because we never needed to, unlike Turks and recently Azeris whose entire culture is based on an Armenian template. The funniest part of this is the delusional claim by Turks that the reverse is true.

    And because of sharia law of past centuries, genetic studies of Turks and Azeris are utterly meaningless. This is what “geneticists” fail to understand, because they conduct studies without taking into account historical facts. In past centuries, all Islamic people in the empire assimilated and married each other without regard to nationality… this includes Armenians who had converted to Islam through force, janissaries or whatever. Now people will claim, oh look Armenians and Turks have similar genes so [they incorrectly conclude] they must be the same people!

    You read someplace Azeris and Armenians share the same genes? Yeah and the entire region including all of the Levant and Greece and Iran as well as Kurds do as well. The region in Iran where less-Turkified Azeris live today… centuries ago, you know what it was called? It was called Armenia. And the genetic link between Turkish Azerbaijan and Iranian Azerbaijan and Armenians is most likely also based on the assimilation of Armenians of the region, similar to the Turkish model. The important thing to remember here is that in such a case of forced assimilation, you cannot claim the genetics of those you assimilated, i.e. use it as an excuse to illegally occupy their traditional homeland. And this means your original roots and language describe you more correctly than what you assimilated.

    For the above points, the best map can be seen here:
    http://www.littlearmenia.com/images/historymap.gif

    I will tell you why you Azeris fail at every one of your attempts at validating yourselves, especially by your simultaneous feeble attempts at marginalizing Armenians. When it benefits you one way, you claim you are Turkic or Turks (For example “our culture and language comes from the Altai mountains!”). When it benefits you another way, all of a sudden you are Iranian or even Persian (For example “Yerevan was Iravan khanate!”). The problem here is, setting aside the Azeris, Turkish culture and Iranian culture are like oil and water, i.e. naturally opposed to one another starting with opposing religions. Thus we have the pitiful state of the “Azeri” who has become the confused pendulum between Turkey and Iran and while attempting to cause damage to the Armenian culture, makes himself look laughable, might I add not in a funny way bit a sad one.

    In order to be taken seriously, I suggest you do like the Turks and wait out about a thousand years, then come and address us Armenians with your supposed “ancient culture”. An Azeri trying to lecture an Armenian about culture is like a house cat challenging a lion. Good luck.

  16. Hagop, I do actually enjoy reading your comments (along with many others’). I am here to learn more about how the other side sees things, and not because Aliyev is paying me (I wish he was).

    So I am curious what you think about these response to what you last wrote:

    I say Azeris are genetically at home in Caucasus, and you took me to mean that Azeris are former Armenians. Could be, of course. But the underlying assumption is that Armenians are the most original inhabitants of the region, and everyone else has descended from them. But what makes you overlook the possibility that the modern Azeris and Armenians predominantly descended from common LOCAL ancestors, which was not yet Armenian or anything else we see in the region today?

    Also, I am curious how you guys define the Ancient Armenia? What years are you looking at (or timeframe)? Let’s say you give me the borders for 300BC to 270BC, then also please answer, what makes it right for you to choose such an arbitrary timeline in history? As you know, land changed hands all the time. Why take a self-serving snapshot?

    Also, you says Azeris are like cats to lions when compared to Armenians in culture. I assume you base it on the fact that you have been called Armenians for much longer than we have been called Azeris. But why? You know, crocodiles have looked the same for millions of years longer than humans have. Permanence, without other qualifications, is no sign of culture necessarily. With your logic extended (based on historical continuity), Germans are cats compared to Armenians in culture.

    Also, why base your comparison of culture based on building ruins from a long time ago, why not compare modern Azeri architecture and culture to modern Armenia? Have you ever compared modern Yerevan to Baku? It is like comparing 2013 to 1980s, with old soviet building in Yerevan, with scyscrapers popping everywhere in Baku, etc. Let’s be frank: money does help culture. We are sending many for our young talent to study arts and sciences abroad, they come back, spread the knowledge, there are a lot of rich patrons buying art from Azeri painters, affording tickets to theatre, etc, etc. You might or might not have had a better culture in 2013BC, but in the 2013 that matters now we are rapidly leaving you behind in dust. Yes, our oil will sooner or later run out, but by then we will have built the infrastructure, both physical and cultural, to last us for a lot longer. What will Armenian have built, with its dying economy? What makes you think Armenia will be able to change the downward trend? There is just no engine in your economy (a lack of currption, if you ever get there, is no such engine).

    Also, and I don’t mean it in in a disrespectful way, what makes you to make such a big elephant out of Armenian culture? The way you speak is like comparing Armenia to Greece, for example. It seems you have been around for much longer than they. So what have you got to show for it? I am not saying: nothing. You do have a lot. But is it really that much, to the extent to justify your oversized chauvinism? What for example world-class philosopher have you guys produced? What Homer? What Firdausi? Yes, you have an alphabet. But you know what, even I can sit down and make up an alphabet right now in 15 mins, from scratch.

    And if you use territorial expansiveness as a criterion for greatness, you guys have been out of the game for over 1500 years! You have lived under others’ rule for too long. If you WERE great back 2000 years ago because YOU ruled the land then, then, according to the same definition, Turks ARE great now. And I’d rather be great now than be an also-run from thousands years ago.

    And you cannot say all the music, cuisine, attire of the region is Armenian. You know, to an outsider, the Azeri music, food, even mentality all look Middle Eastern (not Armenian). You seem to therefore think that the entire Middle Eastern culture is essentially Armenian in origin. If I did not know any better, I would say that Armenian stole the music from Muslims, of which Azeris are member. Armenian music surely does not sound anything like Christian music, but Arabic. But the truth is that all this culture is just regional, not Armenian, or Azeri, or whatnot. We all share in it. You seem rather stingy to try to claim it all to yourself.

    Again, I am not trying to belittle Armenian culture. I am just trying to bring you down to Earth. Yes, you have a great culture and people. But let’s not over-flatter ourselves, whoever we might be. And yes, it is an accomplishment to have retained your original ethnic identity despite all the regional upheavals. But does it mean that my ancestors were less of a worthy people because they assimilated? For one, we do not know what kind of pressure they were subject to versus the Armenians, and how important it was to the elite newcomers to convert us versus you (we might have had a more strategic location). We also don’t know how many of you were there at the time, versus our direct ancestors. Your Church for example must have played a key role in maintaining your identity. But, still, fast forward to modern age. For whatever reason, the trend will be AWAY from Armenian self-identity. In your home regions, you are such a small presence now, and dwindling (see Armenian economy). And those of your abroad, whether you like it or not, eventually your children too will assimilate. Will there ever be a time with no Armenians in the near future? Of course, not. But you will be even smaller still, below a certain threshold for being able to withstand assimilation.. And who knows 300 years from now, you might be as assimilated as the Assyrians are, who too were once very prominent and even powerful.

    • I don’t think our guest is as sincere as he claims when he says he’s here to learn. He keeps repeating the same Azeri Turk propaganda lies even after he was told multiple times that his statements are not true.

      For example, he keeps bringing up the “UN resolutions calling Armenian to withdraw from these lands” but refuses to show exact quotes from these mysterious documents. The truth about the UN resolutions is that they were calling for both sides (Artsakh and the invading Azerbaijani forces) to halt hostilities. And each time Artsakh Army followed these cease fires, Azeri Turks would regroup and attack again. After suffering heavy losses they would crawl back to UN and ask for another resolution. They did it four or five times before they were forced to sign a permanent cease fire that lasts to this day.

      The mythical “Azeris” never lived in the lands now occupied by the Baku regime. These lands belong to native peoples – Lezgi, Tolysh, Avar, Tat, Udin, etc. Some of them are remnants of the Albanian union of tribes. Caucasian Albania existed as a province populated by different peoples and never formed as a nation. Their border with Armenian provinces of Artsakh and Utik was established to the East along the river Kur.

      During the Armenian Genocide Turkish expeditionary corps under the command of Nuri Pasha (nephew of Enver Pasha) invaded these lands and established a fake Turkish bastard state of Azerbaijani Democratic Republic. This artificial country with stolen from the neighboring Iranian province name did not control its borders and just “claimed” territories of the native peoples and all neighboring countries. Their regime was based on Turkish regular army troops and local bands of Caucasian Tartars who later were made “Azeris” by Stalin and began assimilation of the local peoples.

      Iranian people who live in the Iranian province of North Azerbaijan have genetic ties to all neighboring peoples who lived in the region for millennia. However, all of them had suffered from the nomadic Turkic invaders who destroyed their civilizations and now claim their lands. These Turkic invaders’ civilization is absolute opposite to the local civilization and this is where the great divide is.

      Azeri Turk propaganda machine tries to pull this cheap trick with names game. Azeris of today’s Baku Republic become the same as Turkic speaking Iranians of the neighboring province with the same name. All cultural heritage of the local peoples under the yoke of the Baku regime is confiscated and appropriated to the nomads who miraculously learned how to build churches and grow grapes while traveling thousands of miles over several centuries from Mongolia to Caspian sea. By the same logic, they should ask UN to return the lands of the Republic of Albania because it’s also named Albania and then Kosovo because it’s populated by Albanians. Why not?

      Instead of inventing a new history convenient to them at a particular moment they should study their true roots by reading their national heritage book called Dede Korkut. This epic story explains the nomadic travels from Altai eastward. It proudly talks about their tribal wars, destruction of civilizations on their way and how they came about – see Ergenekon cave story.

      The claims that nomads could build stone homes and live in them for centuries are just laughable. They don’t even have a verb for “build” – they use the verb they needed to “sew” their yurts at each stop. So, in their language to “sew” a presidential palace and to sew a pair of pants is the same thing.

      On top of that, the current Baku regime is not even Turkic. Sultan Aliyev, his family, his clan and the clans of his inner circle leadership are all Kurds. They bring hundreds of thousands of Kurds from Iran and Turkey to settle on Armenian lands currently occupied by the Oil Sultanate. Just this month there was a curious video posted on Youtube. It shows demonstrators in Baku being arrested by a group of silent riot police. Then, it shows the same place where several men in plain clothes start chanting pro-Aliyev slogans. But.. the silent police arrests them too. Why? Because Aliyev regime now has entire police units consisting of newly arrived Kurds who do not speak Azeri Turk language and cannot distinguish between anti-Aliyev protesters and pro-Aliyev supporters. They arrest everybody! Search for “Azərbaycan polisi kürtcə əmr verir.” on Youtube to see for yourself and hear “Azerbaijani” police officer speaking in Kurdish only.

    • @Kerim, the Azeri agent revealed.

      “…with skyscrapers popping everywhere in Baku, etc. Let’s be frank: money does help culture…”

      This is a very strange statement, because cultured societies have moved away from skyscrapers. For western societies, skyscrapers are things of the past. It is no longer important to own the biggest and the tallest building to show your wealth and power. Except in GCC countries where people do not know what to do with their petrodollars, so they build towers, knowing that they might sit empty for 10 to 15 years. The average occupancy rate for office space in those countries is not more than 50%. But the message is; we’re nouveaux riches, we can own skyscrapers too and it looks good on tourist pamphlets.

      Today, cultured societies have turned into societies of knowledge. They have pushed the bar higher, and more and more buildings do meet the standards for LEED certification for Platinum, Gold or Silver. They consume at least 50% less energy, consume less water, control CO2 emissions, use recyclable materials, encourage car-pooling, reduce toxins from indoor air, use high efficiency building systems just to name a few. All things which would make our environment more sustainable and our planet more blue.

      This kind of philosophy is quasi absent from hydrocarbon producing nations, because it is diametrically opposed to burning almost free cheap fuel and deplete even more the ozone layer. Moreover, LEED certified buildings are more complex to opertae, and require solid local operating and maintenance companies with knowledgeable staff, something which is currently non-existent in those countries.

      The bottom line is for those who wrongly associate skyscrapers to culture ; enjoy nice evening city skyline pictures, with indoor lights shining 24/7 simply because it looks good? But, do empty and inefficient buildings make people more cultured and more knowledgeable? I doubt it.

    • Your comments aren’t even worth responding to anymore, Kerim. They contain too much thinly veiled racism and threats. But let’s do this one more time…

      Most of those Tsarist-period buildings in Baku (and even Tbilisi) were designed by Armenian architects. Now I know stating this plain fact drives Georgians and Azeris nuts but it’s simply the truth. Armenians were the majority population in Tbilisi and a large minority in Baku until the Soviet period, when the cities (and republics) became more ethnically homogenized. Anyway, most Azerbaijani websites will at least mention that Gabriel Ter-Mikelov designed buildings such as Azerbaijan’s Philharmonic Hall but won’t mention that he was Armenian (his Russified surname makes it easier to cover it up and lie to themselves). Yerevan is a primarily Soviet-era city, true, and I actually like it that way. The buildings in the main square are beautiful and have Armenian influences, unlike the modern trash being constructed throughout the city. And I don’t think for a second that Baku’s (and Moscow’s) modern buildings are any better-looking. The Luzhkov-era buildings in Moscow are hideous.

  17. Kerim, history indicate that Armenians been down to Earth, at least, for over 7000 years now, unless you act like 2-nd coming of Jesus Christ. Most Armenian are faithful Christians, they may start thinking you are a new Messiah in AW!!

    Keep up a good work kerim Khan!! Yesterday is gone, tomorrow is unknown, and today is the reality of life!! You have lost the war against few Armenians almost 20 years ago, and Artskah, the beautiful Armenian ancestral land is back to her real owner, with her churches! (please relay this message to your Sultan, kerim Khan)

    I love that Church picture, Thank you Arevik jan, please send more pictures of ancient Armenian Churches from the land of Christianity, it is so peaceful and spiritual, even we are far away, but Artsakh will live in our heart for ever!!

  18. {“But you know what, even I can sit down and make up an alphabet right now in 15 mins, from scratch.”}

    are you serious Kerim ?
    why don’t you make up a brand new alphabet for Azerbaijan then ?
    take 15 days, not just 15 minutes.
    Post it here @AW: a lot of Armenians will be very impressed.

    But you can’t copy from other alphabets. It has to be your own invention. (just like the Armenian alphabet)
    And it has to be meaningful: can’t be gibberish. It has to reflect a living language.

    Go ahead and try it: you can use Turkish as a basis for a living language.
    Both Turkey and Azerbaijan now use a modified Latin alphabet. Which was developed by an Armenian, btw.
    See if you can sit down and make up an alphabet that you can use to write meaningful sentences in Turkish.

    And the fact that you would make such a grandiose statement is an indication of the level of your understanding about science, progression of human thinking, and development of culture.

  19. Voskanapat´s post up above is O.K.Explains well the nature of the turco-azeris,when defeated in a battle or in my case(I had written pon another thread)like in a wrestling match ,even if the back of one such had hoit the floor,they would not give up and would come back and claim no. the referre was wrong ..etc.,
    BUT,Voskanapart errs whe he writes in sixt paragrpah I guess. that,and I quote.:-
    AZERIS OF TODAY´S BAKU republic become the same as Turkic speaking Iranians of the neighbouring province of the same name.
    1.Firstly ,I would have rather written TRY TO BECOME SAME…which they never will, the Iranian turkic speaking Iranians have been there from time immemporioal and the PROVINCE WAS THEN CALLED ATERPATAKAN.
    2. The upbrining of these azeris of Iran is totally different.they are much more educated,civilized and have produced writers poets etc., of renoun.
    I personally have had contact wioth a few-long ago ,say 50 yrs ago when I lived in Tehran and bvelieve it or not many many of them with whom I had contact in business mainkly were so well eductated and then they never killed Armenians in ATERPATAKAN, w/capital Tabriz .His eminence Nerses Archbishop Melik -Tangian( aactuaLLYU FROM sIUNIK,PRIOR TO BEING NOMINATED AS HEAD OF nORTHERN IRAN DIOCES, was so much revered by the local azeris that whern he passed on..at his funeral they had linned up all the streets from where the Carriage drawn with 10/12 horses that carried his coffin,all women(turks were cring for their KHaliphah!!!!!
    I saw that and in case anyone thinks that the Aterpatakan turks are same as the ex soviet Axeris , he errs totally.
    One more thing.There are many Iranian azeris doing business with Yeerevan .They come partkae in Fairs etcf., I have seen them etc.,

  20. Kerim,

    As your arguments evolve it brings out the double tongue nature of your assumingly pacifying intention.

    First, you point out at different times of history, then you say Armenian culture is great, and finish it off with a sting at our dwindling numbers.

    Well, frist of all you must understand that countries as ancient as Armenia, Iran, Greece, and China all can trace their roots to a defined origin. When you point out at various periods of Armenian history, unfortunately you can’t do that for Azerbaijan, unless you curve the words or claim you decent from caucasian Albanians.
    Second, if you really mean that Armenian culture is greate and your honest intention is to bring us down to earth then that would make you one of the few in Azerbaijan. The rest contributed to the destruction of our history, notably the Nakhijevan’s Armenian cemetary from middle ages. You should go ahead and condomn that act of savagery in order to proof your comment.
    Third, I think when it comes to numbers Armenians have always prooved to be survivors. Being subjugated by Ottomans the number of Armenians covered the whole Armenian highlands into significant parts of Turkey. And after the genocide Our numbers internationally came back to so many that we actually are more net poppulation than your good friends the Gerogians, and perhaps not so far behind you.
    So, maybe you are thinking of a mass extinction which would wipe out humanity I can only see resiliant Armenians who survived all these milleniums will have a bigger comeback. And the boarders drawn by the bulsheviks might be redrawn again. So, for those Azeris who are not so good intentioned as you are (as you claim), should continue countinue worrying and counting days as Otto man’s and their Turkish counterparts do up until this day. They even dedicate fundings to play us down and destroy us.

    But, if you think odds are against us then take this into consideration. The whole caucases in a volutile location and you share that vonurability. And Turkey, well they are responsible for millions of Christians dead, Kurds opressed and killed, and their rivilery with Iran, their main lifeline is the NATO. Without it they don’t measure up. And Azeri’s main lifeline is Turkey. See the picture???

    Yap, we are going to assymilate, but not the way you picture or may wish it.

  21. The major weakness in the Azeri position is they refuse to operate from a position of reality. They participate in the theft of Armenian historic territory( please refer to my compatriots in this dialogue) at the hands Stalin , who manipulated borders to control nationalism, and they call this revisionism truth. Sarkis has made a significant point. Armenia will never agree to a position that is not defensible. Look at our history. Artsakh is territorially larger than NK( Kura to the Arax) and obviously had a contiguous border with the rest of Armenia to west.
    The refugee problem is tragic, but to assign a responsibility look to the leaders in Baku. They accepted the theft in 1923, oppressed the Armenian culture and attempted to,alter the demographics. They started a war, lost a war and incredibly play the role of victim. The racism uttered is a well designed diversion to satisfy those Azeris who do not benefitit from the oil monarchy.
    Look at Nakitchivan and that all the evidence needed to show the values of Azerbaijan…. Depopulation, destruction and cultural revisionism. Our people have been there. Understand the psyche of our people. From 1918 -1923 , the Armenians lost a significant amount of historic territory through political convenience and brutality….. Artsakh, Nakitchivan , Kars, Ardahan, Ararat, etc.
    The independence of Armenia and liberation of Artsakh have reversed this trend.
    We thank God for these heroes.

    • well said Stepan:

      no piece of ‘peace agreement’ paper can replace real defensible strategic land depth. Axerbaijan will ignore any ‘peace agreement’ – just like they ignore the provisions of the 1994 Cease Fire Agreement since it was signed (upon their explicit request, btw.).

      If any of our lands are given (Not given ‘back’) to Axerbaijan, they will keep up the attacks and keep gobbling up more – until NKR is an island: just like before. After that, it will be very easy for Azerbaijan to suffocate NKR. After NKR goes, RoA will die a slow death.

      That is the plan and dream of Turks.

  22. Avery is right,so is Stepan and all others who have understood the strategy that the opponent employs ordinarily.that is in our case Axerbaijan.
    However few or none wishe to acknowledge that behind all this lies the MAIN issue.That of great Turkey admitting to culpability.Whereas today’s rather curious news here in this forum was above piece by Khatchik Mouradian ,editor of AW in the heart of great Turkey.where he delivered a discourse at a more or less important gathering.Specifically on Justice to Armenians,by great Turkey.
    Which I picture as the saying goes”carrot and stick” strategy-diplomacy.
    Why not.Let that also be displayed onm the open as he did with the Turks.
    As a sort of appeassement,which might just might take at the very least effect on some of the population there. Fact is the majority of the turkish people do not know what transpired during the 1915-1923 in Ottoman turkey and following years later on in 1939 with the Dersim Kurds.These are now being disclosed by and by .And what better way than by one whose parents have undergone the ordeal..etc.,
    Most importantly the “allies”of great Turkey approve of such display of concilliation,viz the football diplomacy the protocols ,Akhtamara, then Diasrbakira…all these ,may well be TADERGUTIUN, a theater-play,nonetheless it does signify that they are permitting this to happen..
    One thing though they*Turks do not quite grasp is that those Armenian fedayeen methods are obsolete for Armenians of today.We can be much more than what they wishes us to be….
    The new generation armenian Young are in no way similar to the obedient ermenis who turned the other cheek…
    This said,I still think it is some sort of being compliant with the manipulationist adversary that is always at work concocting up some ways in order to bring us to give in to their whims.I wish though part of it was real not fake or maneuvres by them..
    It is good to hope that some day the Turk,yues even the Truk will realize that their ancestors didcommit a horrendous crime and it is time to admit to it.
    let’s hope they will understand that we are there to extend a hand ,IF THEY KNEEL DOWN LIKE WILLY BRANDT, atmit to culpability ,asking for forgiveness and indeed make amends/restitutions

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