As fall approaches, the newspapers and magazines remind me of my civic duties and encourage me to keep on murdering the killer-snails. They tell me it is the right thing to do. It is important to cooperate in order to protect our cultivations. Take the fight, form a kind of citizen guards group.
I am afraid to say that I am not qualified as an animal lover. I’d rather keep a respectable distance between me and animals. In that respect, I am just like one of them: They are threatening and scary. So am I.
Coming back to the killer-snails, I must admit that I have never seen the damage they cause. I have only read about these ferocious killers. So I trust the papers and the experts and the victims’ stories. The verdict is unanimous: Kill them all. Have no mercy. Be clinical. Use your hand pruners. (For those who are not familiar with gardening, these are a type of scissor used for plants. They are strong enough to prune hard branches of trees and shrubs, sometimes up to two centimeters thick.) I don’t own any secateurs, so instead I use the sole of my shoe and tramp these ugly creatures to death, encouraged by the incitement to destroy every killer-snail I see.
The killer-snails do have a common, neutral name; they are called Spanish snails. But of course, it is much easier to justify their destruction, when done in the name of self-defense (against “killers”) and in a battle against evil. The snails are described as invading hordes that reproduce in huge numbers and thereafter destroy our culture. They should be here—they should not have migrated here—in the first place.
Killer-snails have different needs than humans. They seem to have a single interest, their inner life is less rich. Can they feel pain and do they feel fear? These are questions that are of course critical to our operational attitudes. Or maybe not. After all, most of the animals we have systematically killed do feel pain and fear.
But wait a second, is it really good, or rather appropriate, that I crush these snails with my shoes and kill them? It is an uninformed, mechanical response to what the magazines are instructing me to do. But that is a bad answer. Yet to claim that media is responsible for inciting violence and encouraging murder and brutality also seems unconvincing.
Why have I brought this up? I believe that whether the subject of hatred is a snail or another human being, when we are encouraged to get brutal and commit a crime, the same nerve cells and neural pathways in our brains are activated. Why should we worry? We must remember the German poet Heinrich Heine’s words: Where people burns books eventually they start burn people too. Books were burned because they, too, were considered to cause damage.
After all this is what is happening in Azerbaijan, where they’ve made a hero out of the axe- murderer, Safarov. The frenzy and euphoria surrounding the murderer is beyond human comprehension. I can hear the Azeri media calling for the crushing of the “snails”—even using an axe when necessary.
Azeri society, our neighbors, are being poisoned every day, nurtured with slogans that define the Armenian as the enemy. And like the snails, Armenians are being described as invading hordes who are there to destroy their culture, and who should not have been there—migrated there—in the first place.
The emotional and verbal aggression directed towards Armenians is so significant that one needs to ponder about its consequences.
Where does this hatred come from? What it is an expression of? Could it be just relief? That this way, the Azeris live out their hatred unrestrained and unpunished against those Armenians who are “destroying the Azeri social order”?
Or could it be the expression of what J.M. Coetzee’s fictional figure suggests in “Animal Life” (New Doxa, 2001)—that man despises slaughter-cattle because they allow themselves to be treated as such, as slaughter animals.
Once upon a time, we waged a war against nature and animals. It was only after man’s absolute victory that we came to cultivate compassion. However, there are still animals that we hate. Rats, for example. But rats have not surrendered. They fight back. The rats will not go away, and they will certainly not lose, either. Not to mention insects and microbes. They will still beat us.
Nor will killer-snails step aside.
Human beings have a master race mentality towards other species. So if we went in to annihilate the killer snails, by closing our gardens, and fencing and using chemicals, we would soon be disappointed. We would be furious because these animals are not grateful and that they do not behave like people. And we would hate them even more.
The master mentality, however, is two-sided. It can manifest itself as compulsory humility, as well. Yet we all know that humility is sometimes just well-thought-out superiority.
In between, there is a third state: equality. Equality does not mean to love everyone, to love people you do not know or care about. In the long run, however, it requires reciprocal respect in order not to turn into something perverse and self-effacing. Killer-snails ignore equality both as a mental attitude and in practice. People, too, ignore equality.
When we try to understand why we are not encouraging each other to put aside the axe and refrain from using it against those who are seen as damaging, the answer is far from obvious.
Today Armenians are perceived as destructive hordes who are ruining Azeri existence. But what should they do with these “destructive hordes”? Keep them in a reserve, in a high-security state prison? Murder them all?
Humans act like killer-snails, too, eating dead or weaker individuals of the species. Yet, one must remember to resist against what we perceive as a threat and refrain from behaving like Coetzee’s submissive slaughter sheep.
Suzanne Khardalian
Latest posts by Suzanne Khardalian (see all)
- From Der Zor to Majdanek: Genocide Trivialized in Scandinavia - December 21, 2012
- Caught in the Middle: When Dogmas Die and Traditions Thrive - December 11, 2012
- Khardalian: With the Pruner in Our Defense! - October 5, 2012
{“Today Armenians are perceived as destructive hordes who are ruining Azeri existence”}
Pretty hilarious of Axeris to perceive us Armenians like that.
Indigenous people of South Caucasus, who had been living on our own lands for at least 4000 years when Oghuz Turkic tribes invaded about 1000 years ago.
From their desolate homelands in East and Central Asia.
Apparently after years of self-delusion, AxeriTatarTurks have come to believe their own myths.
There is a mental defect/condition called Projection: [Psychological projection or projection bias is a psychological defense mechanism where a person subconsciously denies his or her own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, usually to other people. Thus, projection involves imagining or projecting the belief that others originate those feelings]
The psychologically damaged leadership of Axerbaijan has managed to permanently poison the minds of large numbers of its own citizens with relentless, well financed Anti-Armenian hatemongering.
Avery,
Brainwashing does wonders. That explains all. Especially, with AxeriTurks, a group of people, that does not seem to have any affinity to books. Even Thomas de Waal said in one of his interviews in Civilitas that AxeriTurks, unlike Armenians, do not like to read books.
Yeah Sella, that’s so true about them not valuing books, but you know what, I bet most of them don’t want to read, because it contradicts their indoctrination and confuses them further when they find out the indigenous nature of the Armenians, their long history and culture, and even that what they think is “Azerbaijan” is actually part of historic Armenia. To be a Turk or Azeri and reading non-Turko-propagandist books, must be a very depressing affair if one has been raised as a delusional turanic ignoramus.
And the westerners are playing the “three monkeys”. They are only sniffing the azeri oil…
I like this article. This clearly bring human nature into perspective and clearly shows how the Azeri nationality is bred into a nation of haterate. Just like the German war machine of WWII which had it’s origin to WWI which developed from Hiteler and other German high ranks into a full national movement against non-Germans.
The young Azeris who insult and hate Armenians weren’t even born when the war was going on. Now they posses the hypnotic curse the son of their soviet dictator has raged on their mind to hate Armenians.
Their defeat is so bitter for their national errigance they are willing to exagerate and lie to hurt Armenians. They invest on weapons, propagands, and Drones to make sure Armenia lives in fear.
I am not surprised at Azeris behaving this way. This has it’s roots to their seljuk history and the history they share with Turkey.
Afterall, the world is still pending to see Turkey admit to their WWI crimes, when Germany had already appologized and is still paying for their WWII dids.
Azeri culture is a breading zone for ultra-nationalistic or even facist ideologies.
Not only Karabakh didn’t complete our lands which we are entitled to, there is Nakhijevan which shows how Azeris long before 1993 war had the intentions of taking more from us.
It’s as if the Turks and Azeris’ pan-Turkic affinities are strong and somehow driving force behind their politics.
I think the real horders only could of came all the way from central Asia into Armenia, and history shows Armenians always been in the Caucases and Anatolia, up to almost even middle of present day Turkey.
Azeris are determined without acknowledgement, consideration, ethics, or any other behavior required to be civilized human being. Lies, deciet, falsehood, and supporting criminals in order to reward anti-Armenian acts can only be practiced by Barberic horders.
This can be concluded by saying, the hypocrites are the real horders.
I liked this article by Ms. Khardalian. I looked at its logic in an Armenian-Azeri-conflict-agnostic manner. But this logic does not apply to the Azeri situation. Ms. Khardalian, why is it so hard (and contrived) of you to understand the Azeri hatred towards Armenians? We hate you because you have taken the homes of our 600,000 compatriots in the 7 areas adjacent to Karabak! You have killed 30000 of us! That is why we hate you, not because we have a complex or hate Armenians because of the way you look (after all, you and we both look the same; so you cannot see any racism in the rationale). You dont have to resort to analogies with snales etc at all. You take my home and kill my brother, and I hate you. Plain and simple.
And Avery, Ed, I find it hard to accept that you do not see the sad irony in your engaging in the very kind of xenophobic mind-set that the author criticizes. I think you do see her point, but you hate us Azeris so much that you simply could not resist the temptation to wallow in that hatred. So there is a slight possibility that Ms. Khardalian is even smarter than I think she is — in a clever ruse, she parodiies and even brings out in you in a live manner the kind of hatred she decries (except it is the Armenian hatred, based on the idea that Azeris are the Other not belonging in the area).
And by the way, it is sick and tiring to watch otherwise smart Armenians play this “Azeris-are-from-Mongolio” card. With this logic, the current population of Latin America should be expelled from their ancestral homes simply because they speak the language (and reliion) of Spaniards, who are outsiders. I think by now it is common language that Azeris are genetically no less Caucasian than the other natioanlities in the region. You could play this kind of card before the modern genetics age. Now, thanks to science, this point is now defunct; so quit using it and insulting your own intelligence. Yes, we speak Turkic, and there is some genetic drift in us from Central Asia, but it is so extremely minimal (and no more than for Armenians having non-Armenian blood). We adoped Turkicness just as the Mexican have adoped Spanishness, but never stopped being who we are genetically. If anything, it is Armenians who probably do not belong to Caucasus as much, but mostly to the MIddle Eastern portions of Turkey. So please please stop your BS about Azeris not belonging to where their ancestors have been living. I know it is convenient for you to believe this, because that way you feel entitled to pillaging and killing us (simply because we are the Other) … which is the whole point of Mr. Khardalian piece.
Karim, I would have shed a whole bunch of crocodile tears if there was any truth to your fiction. The Armenian nation, in a civilized fashion, legally and democratically under the freedom of expression of openness and restructuring, glasnost and perestroika, introduced by Gorbachev took its 70-year old grievances to the streets and demanded the self-determination and the reunification of the ancient territory of Artsakh (Karabakh) with Armenia.
What did innocent, misunderstood and oppressed Axerbaijanis do? The Axerbaijani thugs and criminals, sanctioned by their government and under the police protection, indiscriminately attacked, stabbed, burnt alive and killed any Armenian they could get their hands on. These were neither Armenians from Armenia nor Karabakh but the citizens of Baku, Sumgait and other cities and towns who were supposed to be protected under the law.
It was you Axerbaijanis, unfamiliar with democracy, who could not stomach the rightful and the legal Armenian demands and started looting and murdering Armenians in their places of residence in cold blood. Then you started and imposed a war on defenseless Armenians in Karabakh, as a result if which, tens of thousands were killed in the battlefield and the disputed territories were liberated. You talk as if we rounded up 30,000 of you and took you to the slaughterhouse like your Turkish masters did to 1,500,000 of our people across the border in 1915. The Axerbaijani administrative and illegal hold on Karabakh, with 95% Armenian population in 1921 reduced to 75% in 1988 by Axerbaijani anti-Armenian racist policies, ended when the Soviet Union dissolved.
When was the last time a self-righteous pseudo-Turkish Axerbaijani, such as a yourself, spoke up against the criminal actions of the Turks against the Armenians across the border? Instead, you joined hands with those criminals disrespecting and dishonoring our murdered nation. As if that was not enough, your army engaged in the complete destruction of one of the ancient Armenian cemeteries in Julfa, desecrating the graves of our ancestors and religious symbols so as to make sure there were no signs of Armenian existence left in parts of the ancient Armenian homeland now occupied by artificial Axerbaijan.
Axerbaijan is an artificial state and it is an Ottoman invention created in 1918 for the control of the oil fields on the Caspian and in order for the Pan-Turanist Turks to have a foothold in the South Caucasus to wipe Armenia off the map after annihilating the entire indigenous Armenian population in Western Armenia, today’s Eastern Anatolia, and turning what was left of Armenia into an orphanage. Even to this day, the leaders of genocidal Turkey refer to your fake Axerbaijani state as an extension of Turkey, a euphemism for the good old Pan-Turkism and Pan-Turanism, which strived to put an end to our existence in our ancient homeland once and for all.
I am not in the least bit impressed by your cunning approach to paint yourselves as peace-loving and oppressed, when I know for a fact there is hatred deeply seeded in your hearts against the Armenians. I personally could care less how much you people hate us and for what artificial reason because I have far more capacity to return the favor in many folds. You are the real criminals who portray and disguise themselves as part of this noble nation which is multi-cultural, civilized and inclusive, except when it comes to the Armenians. You are all fakes just like your nation and state is fake.
My condolences for Mr Safarov’s family. But what I do not understand is how Armenian’s are surprised by his killer getting a hero’s welcome in Azerbaijan? Hate leads only to hate. I have read in this by prominent Armenians who suggest that when a cataclysmic event like an earthquake or another natural disaster whether man made or not, struck Turkey Armenia should use that opportunity to attack Turkey.
I have also throughout my life read about how the killers of 27 Turkish Diplomats and seven of their close relatives are considered heros in Armenia. I have not once read or seen Armenians condemning these terrorist attacks on the aforementioned victims. So again where is the Armenian outrage against the assassination of Turks? But on the other hand, when a prominent Turkish Armenian was assassinated in Istanbul by a teenager, thousands of people took to the street with signs stating that “we are all Armenian”.
I used to have great miss-trust and even racist views towards Armenians, even believing what my government said about what really happened in 1915. However, I choose to educate myself and started reading about the subject. And when I was studying for my masters I even attended an Armenian Genocide panel that was organized by the Armenian society in the University of Kent and witnessed first hand their pain.
Some of the commentary I read makes me really angry and fills me with hate, but other than causing more pain it will do nothing more. My suggestion would be to end the mistrust and try to solve the differences between Turkey-Azerbaijan and Armenia through dialogue and not hate mongering. Otherwise another generation will be wasted with hate, fear and mistrust. We have already almost wasted 100 years to reconcile our differences, lets not waste another 100.
Tuna Tangor, did you mean condolences for the Margaryan family, perhaps?
I appreciate your peaceful sentiments, but I have a few comments and questions for you:
First a reality check: The only reason you and other Turks are surprised by Armenian animosity or by the vengeance evident in the killing of diplomats is because you have been raised on lies that kept/keep you disconnected from the reality of Turkish aggression toward Armenians. You demonstrated this fact in your comments above and I appreciate your honesty regarding this problem.
You are wrong to assume that most Armenians condone the killing of diplomats and their family members. We may understand and empathize with the pain and frustration that led a very few among us to take such drastic actions, but that doesn’t mean that we are happy about revenge killings. What we admire is the passion and commitment to fight for our cause. There is a difference. No one is happy when innocent blood is shed.
Remember also that the last such action occurred thirty years ago. That hardly qualifies as evidence that Armenians are a threat to Turkey/Turks or that Armenians are dangerous or aggressive. After almost 100 years of denial of the destruction of the Armenians on their ancestral homeland through deportation, starvation, pillaging, molestation, burning, and murder; after the ongoing assault on our history through propagandizing of Turkish citizens and the world in general; and after the deliberate destruction or usurping of the remnants of Armenian civilization; who is the greater threat to whom?
Can you not see the undeclared, century-long war that has been waged against Armenia/Armenians by your nation? How much passivity do you expect from Armenians in the face of such on-going threats to our existence?
As for the conflict with Azerbaijan, who first attacked who and forced a war instead of dialogue and negotiation? Can you now seriously expect the Armenians of Nagorno-Karabakh to accept Azeri governance after the systemic xenophobia evidenced by the glorification of the ax murderer? Where are the Turks and Azeris who condemn his act and his subsequent elevation by Aliyev?
I am all for a resolution of conflict through negotiation and dialogue, but don’t you think that it is time for Turkey to face the world with an honest apology, a first step toward any dialogue? Where are the sign-carrying Turks who are willing to call on their government to face history honestly, to take responsibility, make restitution for all the harm done and commit to living in peace with Armenians?
Karim:
Thanks for openly admitting that you, AzeriTatarTurks, hate us, Armenians.
And I also commend you for using the correct figure of 600,000 for IDPs, instead of the mythical 1 million that Azeris throw around all the time. (…you must have been reading AW for a while)
1) Regarding the 600,000 IDPs.
There are 600,000 Azeri IDPs from the liberated regions. Originally 400,000 plus 200,000 children born to those IDPs during about 20 years.
There are also 170,000 Azeris who were expelled from Armenia.
However, curiously, Azeris always fail to remember the 500,000 or so Armenians that fled Azerbaijan to escape certain death.
What about their homes ? their wealth ? what about their children ? their shattered lives ? Only Azeri refugees count ?
2) Regarding the 30,000.
That is the number of Azeri troops Killed in Action. Don’t want Azeri troops KIA, do not invade Armenian lands; do not attempt to exterminate Armenians. No more unarmed Armenians meekly marching in long columns to their deaths: Tell your friends.
3) Regarding AzeriTurkic origins in East and Central Asia.
Whether you get tired or not, it is a historical fact. And after 1000 years of intermixing with the locals, of course the DNA will reflect it. We will discuss the DNA in more detail some other time. But please try to explain this fact by our supposedly common DNA: in 2005 Azeri troops completed the deliberate destruction of the last of about 10,000 irreplaceable Armenian Khachkars in Nakhichevan. Some up to 1,500 years old. Priceless. Seems to me Azeri DNA commonality is with Taliban, not Armenians. What say you, Karim ?
And {“If anything, it is Armenians who probably do not belong to Caucasus as much, but mostly to the MIddle Eastern portions of Turkey”}
There you have it: no different than Azeris matter-of-fact considering Armenia, quote, “Western Azerbaijan”. And you are tired of us asserting the historical fact of Oghuz Turkic tribes’ original homeland ? Some nerve.
Now let me ask you some questions, Karim:
Q1) You claim you hate us because of 600000, 30000, homes, etc.
How do you explain your hatred towards Armenians long before those events occurred during the war. A visceral hatred exhibited by the vicious massacres of unarmed, defenseless Armenian civilians in Sumgait (1988), Kirovabad (1988), Baku (1990) – long before the war started.
Q2) In the summer of 1992 Azerbaijan military had occupied about 48% of NKR (the 48% of original NKAO footprint). If ceasefire had been signed at that time, do you think Azerbaijan would return that 48% to Armenians today ?
What if Azerbaijan had succeeded in occupying the other 52% of NKR: would Aliyev talk about returning 100% of NKR to Armenians ?
Q3) When NKR legally declared Independence in 1991, it did not attack Azerbaijan: all Armenians wanted was to live peacefully as Armenians on their own little peace of land, the NKAO footprint. They had that legal and moral right.
Azerbaijan military invaded and tried to wipe it out. After years of fighting for their very survival, Armenians of NKR threw out the invaders and liberated additional historic Armenian lands.
So the question is this: should there be no penalty for Azerbaijan having attempted to exterminate the Armenians of NKR ?
Should we go back to the beginning as if nothing has happened ?
So Azerbaijan can keep trying over and over until it succeeds in completely wiping out Armenians from South Caucasus ?
To TUNA TANGOR,
Answers,in chronological form to your above `post:-
1.A.To first paragraph of yours.- The armenian wrote ¨one solution to REGAIN OUR WESTERN ARMENIAN LANDS-READY MY GRANDFATHERS PROPERTY,UNCLES´´ AND MILLION OTHERS´. n o t A T T A C K(hhere you have twisted the Armenian´s write-post.Take it back!!!!!
B.Reason he gave and wrote that ,he realized after over 50 yrs of US non returnable aid in military armament- ware plus just pumping cash in(billions) great Turkey became so …then indeed having bassed theri WORKING CAPITAL WE CALL THAT IN COMMERCE ON CONFISCATED ARMENIAN W E A L T H!!
2-A. Your own OTTOMAN MILITARY TRIBUNAL CONDEMNED THE TRIO TALAAT ENVER AND JEMAL PLUS A HOARD OF OTHERS TO D E A T H-some by haning.Plus of European and American and russian and other nations´Parliaments etc.
B- Armenian JUSTICE COMMANDOS OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE(the name alreeady explains a L OT .Were seeking J U S T I C E, also the feared ASALA, LATTER EXPLAINED ¨LIBERATION OF aRMENIAN 8SEE MY gRANDFATHERS AND A MILLIONS cONFISCATED PROPERTIES(L A N D)
Both of these some of coind as PERFORMING ¨¨CORRECTIONAL ACTS OF VIOLENCE¨.Thjey definitely were not terrorists(latter phrase may be attributed to those who bring down huge Edifices with innocent people therein and or bombing supermarkets housewivies and children there also sea shores.Armenian kids N E V E R D I D T H A T>.Onlyhyu Toikish diplomats were targeted to bring them to their SENSES.Which BTW after TAllat and Enver jemals CONDEMNATION IN GREAT TURKLEY HAS NOT!!!!
3-Your 3rd and fourth paragraphs are rather unworthy of even replying to,since THE GRANDSON OF MAN EATING JEMAL(one of the trio) has admitted to Genocide gone to Tsitzernakapert and offered his respects there.
Who are you offering your condolences to? to a hate-brainwashed azeri.
Oh I near forget to anser to K E R I B E Y…ABOVE!!!!!sO HERE GOES.-
lAST WEEK THERE WAS THIS CONFERENCE IN YEREVAN ,ARMENIA, to which quite a few Minority reps. from AXERBAQIJAN were invited:-such as Lenkorani (persian speaking),Talish,likewise and according to them close to a million of them are within the Axerbaijan Republic.These are ERRORS,SEE tIME OCT. 8,2012 cOLUMN bY jOE KLEIN¨¨entitled:-
OLD BORDERS,NEW REALITIES with great Turkey map below,which points to great Turkey alias Ottoman Empire´s being dissected????mind you this is an E,merican writer commentator-not Armenian….
Lastly, Kerim Bey,if Armenians fighting to libeerated their lands(ancestral) killed-according to you 30 thousand invadors,that was WAR INCITED BY ALIEV BABA,gEIDAR bEY AND NOW oGHLU IS PERSUEING IN BABA´S shoes what even before Geidar, in years 1905 your ancestors did in Baki.
Npothing is forgotten and nothing will be forgiven anymore!!!
As to article in question and comments on it.I respect Ms. Khardalina as a gpood writer,but history-wise she has to read the numerous books both by armenian and non armenian writers historians etc., to form a better idea and also attend8LIKE THIS ERVANT OF THE AR,MENIAN PEOPLE HAS DOEN IN EUROPE)numerous Armenian politically motivated gatherings and formed part of the Armenian Congresses there. We learnt a lot through those,plus we watched how our own political parties with friction amongst them were closse to attack ea other.But Thank God n ow they tolerate and respevct ea other and are by and by becoming like the Turks,Persians and Arabs more COOPERATIVE AMONGST THEMSESLVES.Latter do not put so much acdent onm theri politicfal parties they PROFESS COOPERATION AND UPHOLDING THEIR NATION STATES.sEE HOW SMALL pALESTINIANS ARE AS YET CRAVING ANDN FIGHTING FOR STATEHOOD.As though they (arabs in general) had not enough LARGE AND SMALL STATES ALL AROUND….
We have to learn from thse people.We are not that much savvy as to CHERISHING NATION STATE.But we S H A L L B E S O O N.
We neeed to reorganize and I don´t mind say these last sentences here amongst Truco azeri agents.We lack FORMATIONM INTO RANK AND FILE!!!but we shall soon enough do so.
My mistake, i meant my condolences to the Margaryan family.
Ararat
This artificial Azerbaijan will hit you hard in the near future so you will understand if it is artificial or not if you can survive
john the turk, the artificial and fabricated state of Axerbaijan, a satellite state for genocidal Turkey, will always remain an artificial state and it will never amount to anything other than an oil-depot for Turkey and the West to exploit because they have no genuine foundation and are a made-up and a fake nation. You can plant millions of trees but without deep roots and foundation they will all swing back and forth in whichever direction the wind blows and fall like a deck of cards when a storm hits. Twenty years of petrodollar revenues, in billions of dollars, was not enough for the artificial Axerbaijani state to grow a pair and put his money where his mouth is. This is understandable if you consider the very same Ilham Aliyev, who is beating the drums of war, was in hiding in the early 1990s during the Karabakh liberation war, when all past and present Armenian presidents and ministers were fighting on the front lines as soldiers and commanders.
It is not by accident, but by utter tenacity, zeal to exist, connection to the land and deep roots, that Armenia still exists after what it has been subjected to by countless foreign invaders throughout its ancient history. A kingdom of thousands of years, long before there were any Turks to speak of, rivaled by ancient civilizations and kingdoms such as Babylon, Assyria and others in Mesopotamia. Where is Assyria today but just an ancient geographical location of a distant past whose people are long forgotten and scattered all over the globe. Not so when it comes to the Armenians. If we had a fraction of the Axerbaijani oil revenues we would also have liberated the ancient occupied territory of Nakhichevan from the Axerbaijani criminals by now to close the chapter on the liberation of Armenian territories in the east and turn our full focus and energy on liberating the occupied Armenian territories in the west from the Turkish criminals.
You really have to feel sorry and laugh at a fake nation, whose draft-dodger and chicken-hawk leader Aliyev, can only rely on oil revenues perhaps for another 20 years and decorating axe-murderers as heroes to pump up and inject fake hopes into the minds of its badly-beaten, defeated, illiterate and brainwashed population to keep them occupied while robbing them blind. Talk is cheap, put up or shut up.
Tuna Tangor:
I commend you for finding the truth about AG on your own.
There is a lot to explore in your interesting post.
However, I would like to discuss this:
{“My suggestion would be to end the mistrust and try to solve the differences between Turkey-Azerbaijan and Armenia through dialogue and not hate mongering”}
I am not sure why you are comingling Turkey and Azerbaijan, but let us put that aside for a moment.
Given that you have independently verified that your ancestors committed a Genocide against my ancestors, what form of dialogue are you proposing ?
Please remember that about 2 million of my ancestors were exterminated by Turks (1895-1923), and completely wiped out from lands they had inhabited for about 5000 years.
US$ 100s of Billions (in todays dollars) of Armenian illiquid and liquid wealth was confiscated, stolen, misappropriated by Turks which btw became the basis of the wealth of today’s Turkish bourgeoisie.
Unknown thousands of Armenian boys, girls, and young women were abducted and forcibly converted to Islam or sold into slavery.
So, what would you like us Armenians to discuss with you Turks to end the mistrust ?
What do you expect from Armenians specifically ?
Is anything tangible being offered by Turks to Armenians ?
Or, just intellectually stimulating dialogue ?
Thank you.
BTW: you remembered the march by private Turkish citizens for Hrant Dink: you guys can be justifiably proud.
However, we Armenians also remember the Turkish government sponsored march only a few months ago in Taksim Square by 10s of thousands of Turkish citizens displaying the following placards (paraphrased):
“All Armenians are Bastards”
“Today Taksim, Tomorrow Yerevan”
“We will bury you on Mt Ararat”
First a response to Ararat, I have no comments on your diatribe. I find it astonishing how you can bring yourself to post such bigotry under an article like Ms. Khardalian’s? Aren’t you embarrassed for so blatantly engaging in the same kind of behavior that she attributes to us? I.e., making of the other an intruder/imposter so that you are justifying in hating/killing them. Unbelievable! Aren’t there any sane Armenian readers here to stop this guy from embarrassing himself like this? Of course, say the hateful things you have said, but please, do so under a different article. I feel embarassed on your behalf.
Avery, have you ever wondered how Turks can so glibly dismiss your claims on the Genocide? No need to wonder. Re-read your post. You do the same about the Azeri claims. And I find it amazing how you so nonchalantly say, “Well, all we Armenians wanted was to remove Karabak from Azerbaijan.” It is like a thief saying, “Well, all I wanted was to take possession of this guy’s jewels, and he, in an aggressive and hateful act, tried to stop me! I was not going to kill him, since I am a peaceful person. But he left me with no choice!”
And don’t confuse cause and effect. Yes, horrible things happened in Sumgayit. But that was AFTER not BEFORE the “all we want is your land” thing, you know. And no, we never hated Armenians before the Karabak war (over and above the typical minor mistrust that any two different nations feel towards each other). Just ask yourself this. Why would we hate Armenians before that? What had you done to us? Nothing really. But you guys did perceive a grievance towards us, and had (as it came out later) been hating us for a long time. Why? Because you equate Azeris with Turkey, and have transferred your hatred over the Genocide to Azeris (which is very puzzling to us, because we had nothing to do with it), plus you understandably did not want to live as part of Azerbaijan. So, if I was a detective, I would say that you had the motivation to hate us before 1988, not the other way around. I bet that you were born and raised outside Armenia. Otherwise, you would know that before the conflict Armenians had some of the best housing and jobs in Baku. Part of it was that you are a hard-working nation, true. But also, if we really had hated you, this would not have been the case. Also, I am sure you do not know that during the earthquake in Armenian, in the early stages of the conflict, Azeris sent an aid airplane, but the Armenians turned it back. It was all over the news, the Soviet news by the way, not the Azeri one. And your hatred towards us had been there for a long time. I remember that a friend’s mother in Susha was undergoing a treatment in Stepanakert in late 1970s, and she was telling us how shocked she was about the way the Armenians there were thinking about Azeris as if we were the very same Turks who had killed their families, and how much they hated us. She was saying how they taught their children from an early age about how evil the Turks were, and, growing up, I guess finding no Turks nearby, they hated wholeheartedly the next closest thing in sight: the Azeris. I strongly believe that your hatred towards Turkey over the genocide resides at the very heart of the Karabak conflict. That is why Turkey owes Azerbaijan a big time … we are dealing with the consequences of their actions. And there they were a few years ago, trying to “normalize” ties Armenia as if the problem was the Azeris.
About the DNA thing you again so dimly dmissi … Well, that is a very important factor, don’t you think so? You say my ancestors came from Mongolia, and I cite the existence of scientific evidence that shows the modern Azeris genetically are no more strangers to Caucasus than Georgians, Armenians, etc. The case closed, period. So please stop using a defunct argument.
You lose the bet, Karim: I was born and raised in Yerevan, Armenia SSR.
Sorry you chose to respond to my post by a diatribe: tried so hard to reason with you.
Regarding poster [Ararat]: I have read his posts @TZ and @AW for quite a long time. Rather enjoy his sober, unvarnished, uncompromising prose. Rather enjoy seeing one more Armenian poster not engage in vacuous “dialogue” with Denialists,….. trying to convince them to change their errant ways by bending over backwards. Not trying to celebrate the great achievement of having them utter the G-word at long last: “We want nothing more, Sir: please, pretty please, utter the G-word and we’ll go away. That’s all we ask.”
And I can prove I am a sane Armenian reader, and a poster to boot: I have the Official Certificate of Release from the Pescadero State Hospital.
(…that is where the famous Sarah Connor was staying too).
After a battery of psychological tests by Board Certified Doctors, I was adjudged completely sane.
(I am writing a book as to how I got into Pescadero in the first place: quite a story)
[Yes, horrible things happened in Sumgait. But that was AFTER not BEFORE the “all we want is your land” thing]
So, Karim, by this phrase you essentially justify savage killings of innocent people of Armenian descent, residents of Azerbaijan, because these killings happened after Armenians of Artsakh have peacefully (repeat: peacefully) appealed to remove their native land from Azerbaijan, in which it was unlawfully placed in the 1920s, and transfer it to Armenia? It means that the base instincts of the AzerBEYjanis towards any constitutional, non-violent, peaceful act are to kill? How is the mentality of your artificial nation, created only in 1918, different in the 20th-21st centuries from the mentality of your nomadic Central Asian terrorizing predecessors?
I very much respect what you write…among other things…‘We have already almost wasted 100 years to reconcile our differences, lets not waste another 100.’ and wish you could sell it in Turkey (and Azerbaijan?)…and not to be forgotten is the event in ‘Taksim Square when Turkish citizens carried placards that basically read:
“All Armenians are Bastards”
“Today Taksim, Tomorrow Yerevan”
“We will bury you on Mt Ararat”
Now, that’s mighty difficult to trust and I think you would agree.
Avery, you ridicule me for acknowledging the Genocide with an uppercase. Well, at least I can do that, which seems much more than you can bring yourself to acknowledge in the other side’s narrative. For you, it seems all black and white. Evil Azeris/Turks, versus Noble Armenians. And you seem frustrated that we have not come around to agree with you on this point. You say you have bended backwards to convince the other side. What exactly have you done, except keeping telling us that we are evil? You know what they say about the test for insanity, right? Keeping doing the same thing but expecting different results. So it seems that your book about Pescadero should still wait a while until your are done :)
But all joking aside, sadly, I do agree with your assessment and Mardehros… there is no point in us and you talking about reconciliation. We see the situation in such starkly different lights that we can never come to the common ground. And, sadly again, only a massive open war that conclusively vanquishes one of the sides will bring things to closure. De facto, the stage 1 of Karabak war was not it. And that time will sooner or later will come, as we Azeris will not accept status quo forever. And the time is on our side, as each day Azebraijan gets stronger, and Armenia becomes a deserted land, thanks to export patriots like yourself.
Karim,
The truth is that you and your Turkish bothers do not belong to the region, therefore you will never get along with the natives, be it Armenian, Greek, Bulgarian, Kurd, Syrian or Iranian, nor will above mentioned nation will get along with you. That is where the root of the problem lies.
Your genetics is close to natives because you forcefully Turkified the natives. Yes, true you are genetically close to us, but your mentality and cultural conduct is the same as your ancestors who came from East and Central Asia.
Karim:
{“ Avery, you ridicule me for acknowledging the Genocide with an uppercase.”}
Show me where I ridiculed you for acknowledging the Armenian Genocide.
Note: I generally write Genocide in caps, because it was not just a genocide, it was THE Genocide.
Also, show me where did you acknowledge the Armenian Genocide in this thread: I don’t see it ?
(I remember an Azeri guy posting @AW under Kerim with ‘e’ who claimed he acknowledged the AG, but really didn’t: not sure if you are the same person).
You wrote this:
{“ Avery, have you ever wondered how Turks can so glibly dismiss your claims on the Genocide?”} The phrase ‘claim of Genocide’, emphasis on ‘claim’, is an old Denialist phrase. We don’t ‘claim’: it was Genocide. You writing that phrase tells me you deny the AG.
You wrote:
{Because you equate Azeris with Turkey, and have transferred your hatred over the Genocide to Azeris (which is very puzzling to us, because we had nothing to do with it)}
Thanks for the psychoanalysis. But you don’t know what you are talking about. In Soviet times 170,000 Azeris lived in Armenia and about 500,000 Armenians lived in Azerbaijan. There was also intermarriage. For about 70 years.
But you glibly dismissing the premeditated massacres of unarmed Armenian civilians in Sumgait (and other cities) tells me a lot:
{“Yes, horrible things happened in Sumgayit. But that was AFTER not BEFORE the “all we want is your land” thing, you know. “}
First: the demand, such as it was, was peaceful on Armenians’ part, according to laws and procedures of USSR. Yes, our compatriots wanted to be free of the Azeri yoke first: it is the right of every human being.
Second: Azeris started massacring Armenian civilians in response to peaceful petitions and protests; you are justifying that sequence of events by your statement above – Azeri violent response to Armenian peaceful demand for redress from authorities, are you not ?
Third: we don’t want ‘your’ land: we want our land back. NKAO was never yours. It was placed – unfairly – under Azerbaijan SSR administrative control. No more, no less. It was 95% Armenian in early 1920s, and was still 75% Armenian when the NKR declared independence in 1991. Azeris have no right to force people who don’t want to live with them under their yoke.
UN Charter [PART 1 Article 1 All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. ].
You wrote:
{“I strongly believe that your hatred towards Turkey over the genocide resides at the very heart of the Karabak conflict”}.
You are wrong: the heart of the conflict is Axerbaijan’s refusal to accept the Universal right of NKR indigenous Armenians for Self-Determination.
You write:
{“ I do agree with your assessment and Mardehros… there is no point in us and you talking about reconciliation.”}
On the one hand you assert that you are different from Turks. The ‘reconciliation’ issue was advanced by Tuna Tangor: he was talking about Turkish and Armenian reconciliation after AG. He was the one that wrote he was told lies about about AG by his Turkish Gov, and thru personal research discovered the truth.
So I don’t know why you are commingling yourself with Tuna.
Who is the ‘us’ you wrote about ?
When did you, an Azeri, bring up ‘reconciliation’ in this thread ?
I’ll discuss Azeri response to Armenia’s earthquake, DNA. Also, whose side time really is later on.
Karim!! RECONCILE was your word in the last paragraph, not mine!
You write ‘only a massive open war that conclusively vanquishes one of the sides will bring things to closure… And that time will sooner or later will come, as we Azeris will not accept status quo forever.’ With that claim you think an Armenian should trust you? It’s so close to what the Turks said nearly 100 years ago.
You write: ‘You take my home and kill my brother, and I hate you. Plain and simple.’ Armenians can say the same thing, go back 100 years or so.
I don’t hate Azeris as much as they hate Armenians. Listen to Aliyev and pay attention to Safarov’s action, both prove none can be trusted and if you can’t see ‘the trees from the woods’ in that and want us to see your perspective good luck to you.
And now, all that is mighty difficult to trust and I think you might(?) agree.
Karim, as some already mentioned, there is a major difference between peacefully demanding secession, and cutting people’s heads and putting them on display, which is how the Azeris reacted in Sumgait. Clearly, Armenians could not be expected to want to live under Azerbaijani rule after that.
Now, let me tell you how you can take back your (or what we Armenians view our) lands. I am actually telling you how to defeat my homeland. You need to become a democracy. Any model of democracy will do, provided it’s established and successful. It will give you strength and prosperity, which is what you need to defeat your enemies. I would recommend the U.S. model, just because it’s the longest lasting and the most powerful modern republic. It doesn’t mean you have to copy every single aspect, you just need to adopt a constitution like theirs, and let the people take it from there. You need to divide your mejlis into two chambers, and have elections every two years, just to make it so much harder to forge elections. You also should divide the country into federal districts, with their elected governors, so one man cannot control the whole country. Once you do that, you will be able to realize most of your national goals. It will allow you to take back the lands you lost, and may be some more. And in time, as you become more powerful, it may also allow you to achieve complete independence from Russia and Turkey and even reunite with your folks south of the border.
But to do that, you need to get rid of Aliyev’s regime. As long as he is in power, you are going to be just like any of the many oil-rich and military ineffectual dictatorships in the region. And if Armenia becomes a democracy (which is likely in the near future, due to our Western-educated diaspora), none of your oil will be a match for the power that democracy will give to Armenia. Which means you need to do it sooner rather than later.
Vahagn,
What would have Armenia been today if we did not have Armenians like you, assuming that you indeed are one.
In order to have US type democracy you should have a big chunk of land like US has, natural resources, good geographic location, i.e. away from enemies and enough space to absorb all brains from all over the world . And most importantly, you should have a population that is willing to live with these huge number of emigrants. It is no surprise that most of European countries, even the Eastern European countries that are emerging democracies, did not adopt the US democracy system. There is a very good reason behind that.