Upon the invitation of President Serge Sarkisian, Russian Federation President Dmitry Medvedev and his wife Svetlana Medvedeva arrived in Yerevan on a state visit for two days on the evening of Aug. 19.
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov, Defense Minister Anatoliy Serdyukov, Transport Minister Igor Levitin, Special Representative of the President in the north-west region Ilya Klepanov, Ulyanovka Governor Sergey Morozov, Russia’s Ambassador to Armenia Vyacheslav Kovalenko, and other officials were among the Russian delegation that landed at Zvartnots Airport.
The main objective of the visit was to finalize the proposed 49-year lease on Russia’s 102nd military base presence in Armenia, which was the hottest topic of the Armenian media in the last few weeks.
On Aug. 20, the two presidents had a 45-minute private conversation, which was followed by the negotiations of the full delegations. After the meetings, Medvedev and Sarkisian signed a number of agreements, including the amendments to a 1995 treaty regulating the Russian military base in Armenia, and a contract with “Rusatom” to build a new nuclear power plant (which will cost $5 billion, 20 percent of which will be covered by the Russian company).
Russian projects are more inclusive in Armenia than anywhere else. There are more than 200 agreements between the two countries, and more than 1,400 projects in Armenia run by Russian capital. Plans to construct oil refineries, oil pipelines, and energy systems, the Armenia-Iran railways, the mining and petrochemical sectors, as well as substantial investments in the telecommunications industry are among those projects, which amount to $2.75 billion. Russia already has military bases deployed in Abkhazia and South Ossetia and, just four months ago, signed an agreement with Ukraine extending the presence of the Black Sea fleet in Sevastopol to 2042. As a result, Russia is strengthening not only its economic presence, but also its military existence in the Caucasus.
The amendments on the Armenian-Russian defense pact will extend Russia’s basing rights by 24 years, to 2044, and upgrade the mission of its estimated 4,000 troops headquartered in the city of Gyumri by removing the restrictions of the deployed Russian Army to defend the former USSR borders, to include providing for Armenia’s security and providing the Armenian army with modern technical equipment.
“The agreement will resolve the problem of keeping the balance of forces in the region, and will prevent military resolution of the Karabagh conflict,” said Armenian Parliamentary member Eduard Sharmazanov from the Republican Party during an interview last week. “After making changes in the status of the base, it will protect not only Armenia’s frontiers, but will also solve the questions of its security. Therefore, military resolution of the Karabagh conflict will be excluded,” he said. The strengthening of the Armenian-Russian military cooperation is an answer to Azerbaijan’s “militarism” and the increase of its military budget, added Sharmazanov.
Not all parties, however, share that vision. The agreement sparked heated criticism of the Armenian government for allegedly selling short the country’s independence, claiming that the security partnership serves Russian aims far more than Armenian interests.
Radio Liberty reported that Giro Manoyan, a senior member of the opposition Armenian Revolutionary Federation (Dashnaktsutyun), on Aug. 13 said that the changes would be “worrisome” as long as the government has not convincingly explained their rationale. “My impression is that Russia has found an opportune moment to clinch from Armenia an extension of its basing rights in return for satisfying some of Armenia’s demands,” Manoyan said at a news conference.
Speaking about the 25-year lease on the military base in Gyumri, Civilitas Foundation analyst and journalist Tatul Hakobyan said that there were still 10 more years until the end of the original agreement signed in 1995—which is not a short time in this rapidly changing world.
“I think they could wait a little more, because we can’t know what could happen in the region in the near future. It is absurd to prolong the agreement to 49 years because so many things could change in these coming 10 years’ time. Empires could collapse for example,” he said.
David Shahnazarian, a representative of the radical opposition block Armenian National Congress, said during a phone interview that the new amendments in the Armenian-Russian defense strategy are the result of the possibility of a new war in the Nagorno-Karabagh Republic (NKR). “However, these amendments are about the security of Armenia, not NKR,” he explained. “The Russian Army deployed in Gyumri is not responsible for the security of NKR, and Armenia remains the sole granter of the security of Karabagh.”
“I think that the presence of the Russian Army in Armenia is more related to the political situation than to any agreement. If we look closely in the region, we see that Russian troops get out of their bases in foreign countries not according to their agreements, but as a result of changed political situations,” he said.
Richard Giragosian, the director of Armenian Center for national and International Studies (ACNIS), commented for the Armenian Weekly, saying that “in military security terms, there is little to benefit Armenia and suggests a ‘colonial approach’ by Russia’s desire to extend basing rights but offering little more than vague suggestions or aid and assistance. Thus, there is an imperative for a correction of current Armenian-Russian relations, to a more equal or even respectful level, but this visit will certainly not accomplish this, especially as the Armenian side is still far too reluctant to demand more from its Russian ‘partner.’”
“There is a growing recognition of the possibility that Russian policy in the region has been shifting, as Moscow has steadily improved its relationship with Azerbaijan and may actually go further, moving away from Russia’s traditional pro-Armenian stance to a more ‘neutral’ position regarding the Nagorno Karabakh conflict,” said Richard Giragosian.
Two months ago, Professor Gerard Chaliand, an international expert in armed conflict studies and international and strategic relations, was the guest speaker at a discussion forum in Yerevan organized by the Civilitas Foundation. There, he stressed that the possibility of war was greater than ever. “If I wanted to harm Azerbaijan, I would target its population. But if I want to make it an international crisis, I’d bomb the pipelines,” said Chaliand. “I think the best alternative is to harm the pipelines,” he added.
However, a few weeks ago, unconfirmed news reports about Russia’s alleged sale of S-300 surface-to-air missile systems to Baku changed these dynamics, raising more suspicions about the new Armenian-Russian defense pact. Some criticized Russia for making Armenia more vulnerable and dependent.
Hovhannes Nikoghossian, a research fellow at the Yerevan-based Public Policy Institute, told the Armenian Weekly that in some ways Russia has provoked Armenia to signing this document by selling the S-300 missile-defense systems to Azerbaijan. (The system will protect strategic installations, including pipelines and the Mingechevir reservoir, from the reach of possible Armenian reprisals in the event of renewed aggression by Azerbaijan.)
“The situation with the regional stability became unpredictable with the Aug. 16 signing of a strategic partnership agreement between Turkey and Azerbaijan which, according to the Foreign Ministry of Azerbaijan, has a military component as well,” said Nikoghossian. “As a result, the Russian vector of development remained the only possible and de facto forced political choice for the leadership of Armenia, while the air in the south Caucasus is increasingly smelling of gunpowder,” he added.
Foreign Minister Lavrov, who was honored with St. Mesrop Mashtotz order on Aug. 19 presidential decree for his “efforts in strengthening and developing the centuries-long Armenian-Russian friendly relations,” stated during an interview on Armenian public TV that Russia has clearly expressed that the conflict can be solved only through peaceful means, as a response to Azerbaijan’s militarist statements.
The statements by Medvedev in Yerevan were in the same vein. In particular, he stated that “we would like to see in the Caucasus such events [August 2008 war] are not repeated.” Nevertheless, while answering a reporter’s question about Turkey’s involvement in the Karabagh peace process, Medvedev said that “so far, the OSCE [Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe] was the most successful mediator in the process,” without clearly leaving out the possibility of other mediators in the conflict, which could be Turkey in this case.
Parliamentary member and chairman of the parliamentary assembly of NATO Karen Avagyan told reporters that Medvedev’s visit “is of high importance because it gives the opportunity to the Russian Federation president to see matters on the ground, especially what it concerns the NKR conflict and the Armenian-Turkish relations. Seeing matters on the ground is something. Knowing about them through documents is another,” he said.
According to Nikoghossian, however, it is the strategy of the current administration in the White House to provide a definite but coherent and mutually agreed upon freedom of action to Russia and Turkey in the south Caucasus.
“The periphery of Europe nowadays was solely interesting for only Turkey and Russia, while the EU and the U.S. temporarily have been busy with other issues and obligations, and the strategic choice of Armenia in many ways was forced by the mutual love with Russia,” he said.
Commenting on Armenian-Russian relations in light of the new agreements, Hakobyan said that “in the south Caucasus, especially in Armenia, only Russia tells the rules of the game. Thus, we can assume that the will to sign this agreement was from Russia. Specifically, it is in line with Russian interests in the first place, because the priority of the Russian base in Armenia is safeguarding Russian interests, not Armenian ones.”
Harout Ekmanian
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Russian plans have done well. However, there is just so much that can be achieved. Russia does not have a common border with Armenia.
Professor Gerard Chaliand, stressed that the possibility of war was greater than ever. “If I wanted to harm Azerbaijan, I would target its population. But if I want to make it an international crisis, I’d bomb the pipelines,” said Chaliand. “I think the best alternative is to harm the pipelines,” he added.
MR. PROGESSOR , IF THERE IS WAR, WHY NOT THE BOTH ?
Did the same critics critisize about America selling weapons to Azeris’ and Turkey, did the same critics critisize about sneaky oil deals between countries. Hmmmmm
Mary,
In regards to weapons purchases from the US, there’s such a big difference between Turkey and Armenia. You simply can not compare the two on an equal plane.
Sadly – Russians have the same genocidal agenda as the Turks – Stalin being no different. For Armenia to trust Russia’s “agenda” – when Russia is doing back door deals with Turkey and Iran, and Iran in business with Turkey – assisting Turkey in wiping out
the Kurds……………..should be a big warning flag. Russia is NOBODY’S “protector” –
their “agreement” to ‘protect’ Armenia – means, quite simply, that Russia will have the power to “crush” Armenia, when the Turks pay them enough – to look the other way.
Rebecca so far from reality . Her initiation of war,and crush so militant. Friends, we are small nation yet getting even smaller. Were is everybody, where are you running? Running from who? You are rite, from self’s. You can not appreciate the triumph. You need a horror stories to satisfy the smallness definition by going down not up and up. God help us to understand the right meaning of freedom and use it as a gift by presenting it to other nations not by mangling, and looking what in it for me.
A known devil is much better than an unknown angel & above that so far away…
To Mary and Rebecca et al
Also remember that when they were speculating passage of oil pipeline(the shortest) route being via Armenia,alas they bypassed us(Armenia)Armenians NOT BEING TRUSTWORTHY?. I suggest best is Oskanian´s strategy of a complementary mode…
Never rely on any big power-their politics are aimed at their own,rather than any third party.
I think all the comments above have a point of truth.
We live nowadays in a multi-vector world and not a mono-vector world.
Why not look for other (and more genuine) partners too, like Greece, China ect.
Me, myself, being from southernmost Syunik marz (province) of Armenia, know how important this region is as the only reliable gateway (via Iran) to Asia and the world.
But instead of strengthening Syunik, nobody seems to care about this very important strategic region, as I have seen it with my own eyes: poverty, unemployment, no water in many villages, mining industry that destroys the nature and poisens the environment. So many people have to leave the region to find living elsewhere. But Armenia does need a strong Syunik for its future.
Does not Armenia has to use its strong points to make itself stronger?
Dear Varaz Syuni,
Apparently you read my post above yours …please note I have many more important posts on a few other forums,but i cannaot post longer ones in regard to what your comments deal with here.Thence if you like you can give me your email when I can cc some of these to you.Hama Haigagani siro
P.S.Others are welcome too
gayzagpal@aol.com
Dear Gaytzag — I’d say “thank God” they bypassed Armenia when speculating passage of oil pipeline. Oil pipelines make a country more dependent on transnational oil companies and inevitably cause suffering from a “Dutch disease.” Someone above put it to the point: “A known devil is better than an unknown angel.” As for Oskanian and his “strategy” of complementary mode, come on, how could this “strategy” be “best” for Armenian national interests? How could Armenia advance its foreign policy and national security agenda if she had Oskanian as a chief foreign policy-maker advocating for changing the country’s behavior whenever the international environment changes and arguing that while the national interest influences what a smaller country’s government wishes to do, it is the international environment that determines what it is apt to do? Changing the behavior of a smaller country whenever the international environment changes is an important tactical tool, but in no way it can serve as a long-term “strategy.” A clear and consistent foreign policy influenced by the international environment but determined by a country’s national interest has always been the best foreign policy before the appearance of Oskanian and his ludicrous “complementary strategy” in Armenia’s foreign policy establishment. Give me a break!
Nazaret, you are right.
Armenians do not appreciate or understand triumph/success. The average Armenian today needs a tragedy or a catastrophe in Armenia to feel good or hopeful about being Armenian. This metal disorder amongst us is specially prevalent in the diaspora. The Armenian state today is stuck between these types of doomsday Armenians, CIA collaborators, and a so-called “opposition” who’s main goal is to oppose anything the Armenian government proposes. Realizing their predicament, I don’t blame our leadership for disregarding our self-destructive peasantry when they make important decisions.
God bless Mother Russia. God bless our Hayrenik. The Russian-Armenian alliance is the last front against pan-Turkism, NATO expansionism, American imperialism and Islamic fundamentalism.
Armen, I fully agree with you.
While Yerevan needs to play the game of diplomacy (in essence, lip service o the West) it must pursue its strategic interests – partnership with the Russian Federation. Oskanian was Washington’s man from the beginning. About three years ago when he publicly announced that he will not be seeking another official appointment in Armenia he said (I’m paraphrasing) – “there will be changes in Armenian politics that I don’t want to be a part of”
In hindsight, we now all realize that he was talking about Sargsyan’s intent to move closer to the Russian Federation – which serves to negate the Western/globalist role in Armenia.
Please correct me if I am wrong:
Didn’t Russia give Karabagh and Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan, not Armenia?
Please tell me how this makes a Russia reliable ally of Armenia.
Russia has not mentioned the Armenian genocide for years and never criticizes Turkey for its genocide denials, its oppression of Christians (is Russia really Christian?), its destruction of Armenian patrimony, its usurpation of Armenian land, and its support of Azerbaijan.
Please tell me how this makes Russia a reliable ally of Armenia.
Russian trade with Turkey is making Turkey stronger.
Please tell me how this makes Russia a reliable ally of Armenia.
Moderators,
A clause in a sentence in my comment about “Oskanian being brought to Armenia and made foreign minister by external patrons” was dropped out by you, whereas Avetis’ statement: “Oskanian was Washington’s man from the beginning” was left in. I didn’t even go that far as to indicate who brought Oskanian to Armenia, as Avetis did, however, you didn’t allow this clause in my comment to be posted. I don’t think that there was anything derogatory is this widely-known fact. I don’t think therefore that my comment received a fair treatment by you.
Dear Armen,
Polarization for a small country like RA is the worst strategy it could adopt/employ.
If we carry on in this fashion-precisely like in this forum,right above-while one sides with one power the other with another,say like Maro does,that Russia gave NK and Nakhijevan to Azerbaijan,then we can not converge ona mode that ,according to others here on line,forum advocate.Firstly for Maro to please read prof. Richartd G. Hovhanissian´s 4 volume “Republic of Armenia” wherein he clearly pinpoints how turkish agents antered into Nakhijevan,viz 1918/9 and set up the Azeri population against the Nakhijevan Armenians and pushed them out.Also dear Maro get hold of the books,from Armenian library wherein it also not only one by one explains-from many other foreign archives,i.e. based on them,plus photos of British officers in Baku and their Gurka soldeirs with headgears showing that they were there, before the red Army pushed them out.No offense here to the Brits, quite the contrary, they latger moved in-only a few years ago with Dutch poil companies and voila! they finañlly realized their dream of tapping on the precious metal there…
Again While Andranik was in Nakhijevan and wished to move to secure NK,the Brits assured him that they would settle that amicably and so it was left for the newly rising Red Army to move in and then Stalin bestowed(I agree on that) to the Azeris..but read and re -read carefully, how the whole scenario was under Anglo surveillance and with an end to get the stuff at any cost.They waited until collapse of Soviet union then moved in.History cannot be re written -like turks try to do- it is there to be studied.As to present status quo of NK(Artsakh) it is for us to support it at any cost,no matter what the powers desire.it was gained just like present RA by blood shed..
Why not think of like I do toRe-organize the Diaspora(s) structures to become a Super Structure with a Supreme Council.My efforts-like my colleagues, co-thinkers is in that direction only.We have the human resources(a 100 thousand strong professional Colleagues five formed and through them the Economic Power of the Diaspora,in a””national Investment Trust Fund”.Then only with our help, can be Li-Irav(full-fledged) partners with RA/Artsakh and navigate our two Republics towards safe waters…
Hamahaigagani SIRO ,
Gaytzag
P.S. Alas my Web site Armenidad-worldwide4.org is in re-construction,so as to refer you to it,but you may rest assured that I can cc to you some or all of my Thesis for said NITF and reorganization directly to you and others.here space is limited and rather unfit for long articles-viewpoints
Why not look for other (and more genuine) partners too, like Greece, China ect.
what makes you think that the government is NOT doing this?
** But instead of strengthening Syunik, nobody seems to care about this very important strategic region, as I have seen it with my own eyes: poverty, unemployment, no water in many villages, mining industry that destroys the nature and poisons the environment. So many people have to leave the region to find living elsewhere. But Armenia does need a strong Syunik for its future **
you seem to miss the basic fact that Syunik is not alone in this. at least upto now.
while i understand your frustration here, you also seem to miss the basic fact that Armenia rose from utter devastation she had and still has A LOT in her plate. please understand the leadership is not stupid while it is not perfect by any means it is started for a big human deficit stemming from her soviet legacy.
Maro, I will correct you because you are wrong.
Not Russia, but Bolshevism gave away Armenian lands. Bolsheviks decimated the Russian Empire. Russians by-far suffered the worst fate under the Jew-led Western funded Bolshevik movement. Did you know that Communists also gave away Russian lands? The strategically crucial Russian territory of Crimea was given to Ukraine.
And what planet have you been living on? Russia has actively (not by simple words) recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Russian trade with Turkey is making RUSSIA stronger as it makes Turks and Azeris more dependent on Russia for survival. Russia is the only reason why Armenia exists today. We want Russian involvement in Turkey and Azerbaijan not less.
Maro,
No, it was Bolsheviks that made deal with Turks on Nakhichevan, Karabagh, Kars and Mount Ararat.
No, Russia has recognized the Genocide.
No, Russian gas and tourists make Turkey more defendant on Russia.
I still haven’t heard from any of these commentators reasonable explanation why is this agreement bad. It sends a message to the enemies and will restrain them from aggression. Russia will modernize its base and Armenian Army with equipment. Besides continue protecting borders Russia will protect Armenia itself in case of attack. While it wont protect Artsakh, it will allow Armenia to mobilize all its forces to Artsakh in case of conflict without looking back at Nachichevan and Turkey border. Armenia wont be able to fight on two fronts but if it’s own security is guaranteed by Russia it will crush azeries in Artsakh.
Finally, you can see smile on the face of the Armenian and Russian Presidents. I always detect the sad look of S.S. As if asking what I can do now? It was inevitable outcome. Let us be a friends. We love you but our love should be wide. Dispersing to others, wealth of understanding the sharing and supporting one other. Ask your self, where are you heading? That’s right, towards of prosperity. Towards giving the world new technology, a new criteria of the universe. What has to do in this case your scare. Scared of what, who? Lazy thinking , clogging your mind with a little thoughts of “give me we need it most.” But, please, assure, establish, and secure yourself, not relying on the Big brother. Help yourselves not by asking for help, but help yourself by telling who you are and establish all your great gift to humanity.Think straight, arrive there before the others. This, what I call race for happiness, and successful friendship.
John,
You also seem to be a victim of mental conditioning. Please stop your Russophobia. Russians are the ‘only’ allies we Armenians have; and thank God for that. You think China and Greece are more genuine? Are you trying to be funny? Greece has always been, currently is and will always be worthless. I respect Turks more as enemies then I respect Greeks as friends. They are not much different from Georgians. Besides, ultimately, Greeks are the reason why Western Armenia is Turkey today. China is too far away and they are in cooperation with the Russians. In big league politics, there are territories relinquished to various different major powers. The Caucasus happens to be Russian territory; and I pray to God it will stay that way. In the meanwhile, learn to live with the reality that Armenia will be in the Russian orbit for the foreseeable future.
John,
I generally agree with your comments about Syunik. However, Syunik is doing any worst than any other region outside of Yerevan. Moreover, the strategic importance of Syunik is well known by Armenian military planners. A large portion of Armenia’s military hardware and troops are based in the mountains of Syunik.
TODOS TENEMOS RAZON! spanish,means we all have some some “REASON”also means,we all have something right,correct.But I would like to comment on a few of us in a chronological mode.
1.Armen,writes that the oil pipeline passage through through Armenia would not have been to Armenia´s benefit.Here,I would point out that great Turkey receives One billion 600,000 dollars per annum as Transit duties from BP and Shell.Easy money.I reserve my say on this further ahead.
2.Professor Gerard Chaliand´s viewpoint as to his war rhetorics,that in case of war Armenia should attack and destroy said oil pipeline totally out of tune.Turco-Azeris would not like anything better than that to show to the world that Armenians are terrorists ,sabotage minded people. Fact is let us hope they themselves(especially the azeris) do not employ said tactic in case of war and wrap it around our necks.For they are most capable of doing it. Quite the contrary,we should never resort to that. Our stance has always been to respect other -in this case,third parties,viz. Oil companies ,even ERRONEOUS choice.To this, again,I shall refer further below.
3.I stipulate my comment re Oskanian´s complementary diplomacy and uphold it.Firstly it was for a transitional period (ten very difficult years) and he thus steered RA/Artsakh through same without any significant mishaps,with the contenders,viz.RF and Anglo-Ams.
4.I rather commend on John´s correct opinion that we(RA) and Diaspora should seek our partners in other nations.Not only as partners,but to have them Recognize the Armenian Genocide. (this is my bit) but also many many small ,medium size nations as well.Whereas ,so far our quest has been only to have Great Britain and U.S. do so.latter,do not forget are main operators in the Region-besides RF(Russia).
5.Commenting further on recent Russia-Armenia defense pact,as someone above wrote,more than a DEFIANCE to the others…it is a BALANCING ACT that suits RA/Artsakh.
Again,since i am more concerned with the Armenian diaspora re-organization to have it become a Super structure with supreme Council,I shall refrain from commenting on big power diplomacy give and take.in order to also counter-balance our main adversary´s moves,appetites,WE SHOULD ALSO SHOW our teeth,so to speak by doing just that.
Hama haigaagani SIRO,
G.P:
Re:Genocide Acknowledegement & Reparations:-If and when great Turkey is by and by made to come to terms,next will be Evicition and Genocide compensations,to Armenians.
True ,and we all know that.But what we should begin to speculate is in what manner this can be brought about.Republic of Turkey(though very much advanced lately economically<<<<<<she by “their” standard will always evade in being made to pay.Right?
It was rather surprising to say the least, that the oil companies -when deciding to pass oil pipeline-erroneously(I doubt very much) or whatever their intention,did so bypassing shortest rloute,viz RA.made it go through Georgia and Turkey.Latter two are recipients of good transit duties.Armenia left out.Right? indeed.But we can wait and have waited ,we are an over patient people.But now we can also come up with a solution that is JUST.
Those companies,whether by error or otherwise,ought to be questioned,nay ,held responsible for such a clear discrimination.Thence,when Reparations from Turkey-one day,not too far in the future,one would hope- is brought to be condemned by international Justice Dept.´s,most probably -at that point of time-will feign (again)bankruptcy,so to speak and will declare our treasury coffers are empty…
Should we not then resort to another tactic-start, a friendly one , at first-approach to the Oil companies..No,not presenting a demand but “suggesting” to the ICJ that they act on our behalf,asking these companies to withhold part of the TRANSIT DUTIES to great Turkey and pay part of the duties to RA Government and the other half,let us say ,to the remnants of the Genocide survivors heirs ,say through AGBU in Diaspora adopted countries.This I am bringing to the attention of our public,both in Diaspora and Armenia,where also a very large number of survivors heirs are. This is another way of making R.of Turkey comprehend that there is no escape from REPARATIONS.
let alone the Class Action lawsuits recently commenced by Armenian attorneys in L.A.who justly have done so.Though ,as many ,on other forums mentioned as well the Armenian BAR Association should also join up with said lawyers,who have done that for only two plaintiffs,one in NY and other in L.A. It should encompass all the Armenian”remnants”heirs.You see, those oil companies in this way will have to admit to their “erroneous”or otherwise incomprehensible decision to bypass shortest route.
G.P.
Avetis, “Bolsheviks that made deal with Turks on Nakhichevan, Karabagh, Kars and Mount Ararat” represented a transitional revolutionary and then official Russian government. The Bolshevik movement and the 1917 October revolt were largely supported by the majority of Russians. Don’t get me wrong: I don’t underestimate the importance of the Russian factor in Armenia’s security albeit at the expense of the country’s independence, but I likewise denounce the attempts to overestimate it. Whatever Russia does she does for her own strategic, geopolitical, and economic benefits, sorry for re-stating this trivial fact. However, from the geopolitical perspective it is better to have neighboring Russia on our side rather than oil-obsessed America across the Atlantic Ocean or snobby Europeans who, at the time of a possible threat to Armenia’s security, would almost certainly say: “Oops, you know, our ships can’t reach Armenia to help out because your country is landlocked.” So, as one commentator here correctly said of Russia and other powers: “A known devil is better than an unknown angel.”
Armen,
Please don’t waste your time with a “trivial” fact like “Russia is doing it for her interests”. Yes, for the millionth time, I know that. Thank God Russia has long-term interests in Armenia and due to these interests it is protecting Armenia from Turkish and Azeri aggression. Get smart and start using this opportunity to strengthen the country.
Moreover, I emphasize Russia as a positive factor for Armenia simply because a majority of Armenians in the diaspora and a growing number in the republic are falling victim to anti-Russian mental conditioning. Anti-Russian propaganda in the West began before the Bolshevik revolution and it continues today long after the Soviet collapse. Most Armenians today, even if they don’t realize it, are conditioned by the ubiquitous anti-Russian propaganda they are exposed to in the West. If the West got it way with our self-destructive peasantry (and had it not been for Kocharyan and Sargsyan they would have), you and I would have had to say good-bye to Armenia. So, I feel as if I am fighting against this.
Regarding the Bolsheviks: if you don’t have hard/reliable evidence supporting your claims that the “majority” of the Russian people supported the Jew-led foreign agenda to overthrow their empire then don’t speak. It’s nonsense to suggest that a majority of Russians supported the Bolsheviks. What you are suggesting is Bolshevik propaganda. Russia at the time had descended into chaos. Yes, a significant number of the nation’s brain-dead peasantry supported the movement at first because they thought their living standards would improve. Bolsheviks basically took advantage of Russia’s turmoil at the time. Yet, only a handful of ethnic Russians could be found in the ranks of the Bolshevik party before World War Two. As a matter of fact, I think there were just as many Armenians in early Bolshevik ranks as Russians. Bolsheviks gained “support” of the general population through sheer terror.
Nevertheless, due to its political nature and its sociopolitical character it was natural for Bolsheviks to sacrifice Armenian territory in hopes of gaining Turkish and Muslim support. Similarly, due to its political nature and sociopolitical nature, the Russian Empire and the Russian Federation today, jealously protected their foothold in the Caucasus. Armenia is Russia’s most reliable outpost. The fact of the matter is that there are great differences between the interests of the Russian nation and that of the Bolsheviks/communists.
For example: While the Soviet Union existed Russian speaking Soviet troops naturally supported the Azeri effort to crush separatists in Nagorno Karabakh with the hopes of preserving the unity of the Soviet Union. When the political equation changed, that is when the Soviet Union fell and a reborn Russia emerged, Kremlin officials quickly restored to their Czarist formulations, they naturally began helping Armenians. And this is where we are today. As long as a Turkic, Islamic, Iranian and/or Western threat remains in the Caucasus, Armenia will be Russia’s most valuable partner in the region. Like I said, instead of acting like self-destructive peasants let’s use this opportunity to strengthen Armenia.
Russia has some of the same Turkic/Muslim problems we have. We need to exploit that factor in the Kremlin instead of acting like whining children about their growing influence in Armenia. The bottom line is: regardless of how you want to twist history to back up your claims, the fact remains – without Russian support Armenia would not last for than a year, at most.
With increasing Russian power in the Caucasus the very worst I can foresee happening to Armenia is it becoming a province within the Russian Federation, like Ossetia and Abkhazia. Although such a thing to occur now is very unlikely, it’s a gamble we simply have to take. Besides, if Armenia continues to remain impoverished and embattled, if Islam continues its growth and militancy, if Turks continue to gain strength – I rather see Armenia a part of the Russian Federation than a desolate province of Turkey, Azerbaijan or Iran.
Avetis —
I don’t essentially disagree with most of your observations. I only urge people like you to have down-to-earth assessment of the Russian factor in Armenia’s state building and avoid overrating it. Hence my assertion, which everyone, including you, knows: whatever Russia does for Armenia, she does it for her own strategic, geopolitical, and economic benefits. I’m just stating the fact. And since we accept this as a fact, we must also accept that if Russia’s foreign policy and national security priorities change tomorrow, we may be facing a Russia less amicable towards Armenia. I just invite everyone to be politically savvy and sober-minded and don’t overestimate Russia’s factor, which, I repeat, is vital for Armenia under the present circumstances. I’d also disagree on Bolsheviks’ anti-Armenian policy as being non-Russian. While I understand what you mean by “Jew-led” foreign agenda, and admit it, I believe that ethnicity of some leaders of the transitional revolutionary movement and then the official government represented Russia and most of her people. I’m far from Bolsheviks and their propaganda (no need to insult fellow-commentators), but my extensive readings into the period suggest that most of Russia’s peasantry and factory workers did support the Bolshevik revolt. It’s another matter that they’d soon be deceived by the Bolshevik leaders who’d gain “support” of the general population through sheer terror. The fact remains that the majority indeed supported the “revolution” and, as such, were able to defeat the White movement and foreign interventions. By the way, the White movement, too, used sheer terror and intimidations of the general population, but they, most unfortunately, have lost because the ranks of the Red Army where superior in terms of manpower. I guess my point is that I reject the non-scientific notion that because of the ethnicity of some or even many of the leaders in a government, it wasn’t the country they represented that committed atrocities or injustice towards, say, the Armenians. Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid is believed to have been half-Armenian, nonetheless, he slaughtered up to 300,000 Armenians during the Hamidian massacres of 1894-1896 in his capacity as the head of the Ottoman Turkish state. Many Young Turks are believed to have been crypto-Jews, but they officially represented the Ottoman Turkish state at the times when they gave orders for the genocide of the Armenians. Likewise with Russia, many were Jews in the highest echelons of the Bolshevik party, some Latvians, some Georgians, even Armenians, but regardless, all of them as an entity came to represent Russia’s official government at the time when three-quarters of ancient Armenian lands were given to Kemalist Turkey and then Artsakh was given to newly-created nation of Azerbaijan. We all know that it was Stalin’s unilateral decision that transferred an Armenian land of Artsakh to Azerbaijan. But Stalin was a Georgian (Oss, to be exact). What should we say in this instance? That it was ethnic Georgians not the state of Russia that presented Azerbaijan with Artsakh? I find this logic weird. Whoever they were, they represented Russia, as a state, and the decisions they made in regard to Armenia were the decisions of that state. Operation “Ring” during the Artsakh conflict that emptied Getashen and all surrounding villages from Armenian inhabitants was conducted by Russian Soviet troops and I could care less if the order was given by an ethnic Zulu presiding in the Kremlin. All I call upon is to be realistic and not be carried away by overly emotional love for any foreign power center be it Russia, or the US, or China. All they care is their own interests. If at this time Armenia’s interests are best protected by means of an alliance or strategic partnership with Russia, then be it.
Dear Armen,
All I can say about your above post, is DEJA VUE in my previous several posts.
I´m surprised to to put it mildly why neither you nor any other dear forum comentators here, has said a word or two as to my NEED FOR RRE-ORGANIZING THE DIASPORA(s)
best rgds,
Gaytzag palandjian
Gaytzag,
As long as the diaspora is obsessively preoccupied with the genocide; as long as the diaspora thinks of itself as “Western Armenian”; as long as the diaspora thinks of itself as either Amerika-hay, Libanana-hay, Russa-hay, Fransa-hay or Parska-hay; as long at the diaspora is administered by political parties that have long been penetrated by Western intelligence; as long as the diaspora fails to understand geopolitics; as long as the diaspora thinks of itself as a “diaspora” – it will never rally to become a true source of support for the embattled Armenian republic.
Armenia is a tiny, landlocked, blockaded, impoverished and a resourceless nation surrounded by enemies in one of the most inhospitable places on earth, the Caucasus. Armenia’s problems are very severe. Despite what we big-talking/under-performing diasporans think, what’s been keeping Armenia afloat for the past twenty years is not the diaspora – it’s the Russian Federation. Let’s not create outlandish fairytales about how crucial diasporan support has been for Armenia. The fact remains, even during the most crucial of times, during the war of liberation in Artsakh, relatively speaking only a handful of diasporans showed up in Armenia to either fight or bring other forms of support. Understanding well all the flaws and the weaknesses of our diaspora, I have instead decided, unfortunately, to place my hope on the Kremlin to deliver Armenia from evil.
The only Armenian diaspora that holds immense promises today is the Russian-Armenian diaspora. Armenians are well placed in all sectors of Russian society; from media to government to culture to industry to business. We Armenians can be in Russia what Jews are in America. But knowing the intellectual deficit within our people, I’m not going to hold my breath.
Anyway, I respect your intentions, and I wish you luck.
Avetis,
This time, I’m afraid I sharply disagree with your post addressed to Gaytzag, myself being an Armenian from the Republic. Diaspora is not only preoccupied with the genocide, but even if they are, do you find it awkward that the descendants of those barely survived, forcibly deported, and mutilated Western Armenians struggle to restore justice for them, you, and me? Recognition of the genocide has become a part of our national psyche for no fault on our part. We have an unrepentant and threatening murderer-state near Armenia’s border. If recognition of the genocide is an “obsessive business” for the Diaspora only, why wouldn’t Turkey establish diplomatic relations and open the border with the republic? You’re dead wrong, I’m afraid, that the Diaspora has yet to “become a true source of support for the embattled Armenian republic”. You missed it, dude: it has already become one and your remark shows the lack of knowledge about the assistance that the Diasporan Armenians provide to the republic. Very many venues of support were not made explicit for security reasons, but they existed. Of course, Russia’s military support is more visible and more substantial, but the Diaporans had their say not only in small numbers of fighters on Armenia’s side. As for Diasporan “political parties that have long been penetrated by Western intelligence”: laughable, not that you’re wrong, but in that the same political parties have long been penetrated by Soviet and Russian intelligence, too. Read former KGB general Oleg Kalugin’s books where he explicitly states how KGB was recruiting leaders of some Armenian political parties to the extent that at some point almost all of them were influence agents. I don’t like your one-sidedness in underestimating the West and overestimating Russia. If you know Russian, you should be familiar with a Russian proverb that roughly translates: “it’s the same sh** but in different night pots.” Overreliance on one power center never brought success to any nation-state; optimal balancing act did. Russia IS vital for Armenia, but there are other players, too, and in the contemporary world you just can’t ignore their existence. Politics is the art of the possible, and smaller states like Armenia, even in their resourseless and impoverished situation, can be more maneuverable than the bigger states. Again, if maneuvering at this stage requires a strategic partnership with Russia, let’s go for it…
When was the last time a top Russian leader acknowledged the Armenian genocide?
I think never. I think the Russian Duma did but then has since forgotten about it.
I realize, however, how hard it is for Russia to do this since it has to cozy up to Turkey and Azerbaijan. Armenia counts for little in this.
As to the number of Jews among the Bolsheviks, this Wikipedia web site says that they were actually a small minority: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism
So, if that is true, and if the Russophiles among you claim that it was only the Jews, not ethnic Russians, who gave away Armenian land to Turkey and Azerbaijan (in the 1920’s), then your argument that this won’t happen again goes up in smoke, does it not? That is, it was NOT the Jews primarily who gave away Armenian land. It was ethnic Russians. And even if was Jews who gave away Armenian land, why don’t the alleged ethnic Russians now in control help us to get it back?
As for the statement that Soviet Russia viewed support of Ataturk as being in Russia’s best interest in the 1920 (and thus it was OK to betray Armenians, then – regardless of who the Bolsheviks were ethnically, we are left with the distinct possibility that Russia, as it tries to draw Turkey away from the US and NATO, will again sell out Armenia. Same situation. In other words, Russia saw Ataturk as a bulwark against Britain and France, and now Russia sees Turkey as a possibly foil against Europe and the US. Thus, a sellout of Armenia by Russia is probable.
Now maybe Armenia has to ally itself with Russia. But the degree of Russophilism among some Armenians is absurd.
Dear Avetis,
Thanks for respecting my “intentions”.I do not intend b ut “suggest” as a rule.And I shall always do so,knowing well,nay haveing studied well our over all characterisitc shall we say.
Aside being non-cooperative,we are,sorry to say very individualistic,not to use other “forte”adjectives.Thence before anything we must learn to be socialized,what I call in Armenian “Ungeraynutyunh” a made up word by self.This can only and uniquely be achieved througmy “suggested” mode,if I may.That of forming into “Professional Colleagues Associations”.Five on the sce already,1.The Health medical,2The Engineers& sciences,3.The Bar(justice & law) 4.Sportive,5.the Jewellers(latter ought to enlap Furnishings and Furnitures.Ten more like,Banking &/ finance,Transport and Travel,Agricultural,Construction fied. etc., ought to form.That is where we shall finally get together ion our tyupe work/job and begin to get “Formacion Social”mould together.For our “innato” character has been towards the individual…I cut it short.
Now then ,I applaud your first and last paragraphs.Very well put,though deja vue.But again you have said it out loud and I commend that.
I do not agree with you as to totally tending or giving ourselves to the Russian uncle.
Please note and this I have in my more than 30 times discourses on the “Horizon” T.v.-stopped since near 3 yrs ago “suggested” THEN..that this is actuality.
When a few yrs ago they were bestowing medals on the breasts of our Armenian soviet veterans,I very politely prompted that it would be BADSHAJ-appropriate that they,the Russian,instead of just that,should consider bestowing the debt ridden few large Armenian factories to these veterans or their heirs,viz.at the time when Armenia owed a paltry(for Russian Economy) 120 million dollars to Russia!!!!
True lately they have begun to invest in Armenia,but that is not APPRECIATION FOR our soldiers that in WWII gave their lives for the “Hairenagan Baderazm” Fatherland war..
AS good ,honest and sincere people we did that and I am not saying we should not have.
But in such cases,as in real life,or even businesses,first thigns first,accounts are to be honoured.We paid our debt to them,being our”patrons”,as you wish to convey,but what about they being a bit more gracious,nay appreciative.After all every learned person knows that Russia is a rich country with tremendous resources…
From the URALs to Vladivostok and minerals and other riches abound on that immense land..in the interim,am lisgtening to a morning radio talk from NY a few yrs ago when doing my morning walk.The speaker says literally and I quote”Do you know that there are more Billionaires in Moscow now than in NY.”unquote.
I would like to close by saying like i have alreadhy written in my above 2/3 posts that we should consider this pact of prolonging it as a Counter measure or balancing not as a Defiance to the EURO-AMS. I believe we should opt for the non-alignment with any power totally.Luckily RA so far has been doing it whether throiugh oskanian yrs or Kocharyan Serj.I commend it.Let us stick to that.WE have been taken in when siding totally with this or that power, many times over.Instead , I “suggested” to be as much as possible non-committal to either side.
Also do be kind enough to at least criticise my “intentions2 as to RE Organization of the Diaspora(s)-To be fair,add a few words to your “intention”s of mine,say it is bad,no good,we should go on with our over 160 yrs old Sahmanatrutyiun and like ARA Baliozian wrote a hundred times…bend over to the BBB´s(Bishops,Bosses and Benefactors).Fact is on another forum called-now not there-Hayastan@usc.edu I did prompt him nogt to cross the line..
Hama Haigagani SIRO
Anyway, those of you who still think that Armenia has “other options” than fully partnering with Russia are either medically delusional or just utterly ignorant of the political world they live in. Those of you that still think that the Armenian diaspora is playing a crucial role in keeping the Armenian state from going under are living in an absurd fantasy world. Despite of our self-destructive peasantry, and genocide obsessed diasporans, Russo-Armenian alliance will continue and Pax Russica will bring great dividends to the Armenian republic. The ONLY way the genocide will be avenged and Western Armenia liberated is when Russia and Turkey clash. Despite any lucrative trade relationship between the two, a Russian-Turkish clash is inevitable, only a matter of time.
The psychosis and ignorance amongst Armenians today is so deep so severe that we have individuals still asking – When was the last time a top Russian leader acknowledged the Armenian genocide? As if Russia has not been doing so, as if it really matters in politics… The mental conditioning in Armenians today is so thorough that we still blame ethnic Russians for the actions of non-Russian Bolsheviks. And the ignorance of Armenians is so blinding that we fail to see ourselves for who we really are.
More and more I am beginning to think of us Armenians as a freak show. God forbid there ever be the thing called “democracy” in our land.
Avetis, I’m afraid you have something fundamentally wrong in your psyche to react so harshly to the opinions of others. Dude, this is a discussion forum and there are as many different viewpoints as many commentators post them. In geopolitical or strategic matters there’s no such thing as “black-or-white”: interests change, alliance collapse, new ones emerge, priorities of the political world we live in shift. You don’t have to be so one-dimensional, especially as many commentators essentially accepted that at this historical juncture a partnership with Russia is vital for Armenia’s security. There are always other options and, if they emerge in the future, what have you against them if they happen to be beneficial to Armenia? He plays well who plays various cards and long-lasting rigid alliances historically never proved to benefit smaller states. I don’t disagree with you on Russia at this juncture, but I believe we should always be on alert for other options, too. I brought as an example operation “Ring” in Karabakh by ethnic Russians (and this time you wouldn’t argue they were ethnic Russians, would you?) when Armenian villages were emptied and pillaged to the benefit of Azerbaijan. You don’t have to insult fellow commentators by derogatory words especially when you don’t know whom you’re exchanging comments with. Please read their comments more carefully as to the nuances they contain. No one here “blamed ethnic Russians for the actions of non-Russian Bolsheviks,” but comments revealed the fact that whoever the Bolsheviks were ethnicity-wise they officially represented the State of Russia and their anti-Armenian actions, such as handing over Western Armenian lands to the Turks or Karabakh to the Azeries, were made in their official capacity as Russian statesmen. I don’t give a d*** whether they were Jews as Trotsky and Kamenev, or Georgians as Stalin and Ordzhonikidze, or Moldovans as Frunze, or Armenians as Mikoyan, or Poles as Dzerzhinsky, or Latvians as Rudzutak. All of them represented the revolutionary or official government of Bolshevik and Soviet Russia. I’m afraid your self-destructive hatred towards fellow countrymen and co-ethnics blinds your ability to assess our comments in a calm, perceptive manner. This would be my last word to you. Good luck.
Armen,
Serj Sargsyan has been brilliant in his geopolitical formulations. He is engaging the West, maintaining good relations with Iran and even leaving the door open for future cooperation with Turkey – while fully and firmly under Russia’s protective umbrella. What the hell more do you people want?
Please tell us this “other” option. I hear it from the ARF diehards, I hear it from the Heritage clowns, I hear it from the HHSh criminals, I hear it all the time in the dying diaspora… Please, do me a favor and tell us all what’s the “other option”.
Why am I so angry? I have never seen a more ignorant and a more self-destructive bunch of people than us Armenians. I thought we were smart. What happened? Listening to our intellectuals, activists and politicians talk about politics these days is like listening a bunch of self-destructive peasants. That’s why I’m angry. Russia is the reason why Armenia survives today; not the ARF, not the West, not America, not the diaspora. Yet our idiots would be more than willing ruin our crucially important alliance with Moscow if they had a chance. That’s why I angry.
I am not angry because there are dissenting opinions. I am angry because the kind of “opinions” that come out of Armenian mouths these days are suicidal for the republic of Armenia.
Finally, Bolsheviks represented the “Soviet Union” and not your fictional “State of Russia”. I’m now angry because I had to explain some as simple as this to some as intelligent as you. Also, speaking “Russian” does not make one an ethnic Russian, just like speaking “English” does not make one an ethnic Englishmen. The Soviet Union was as “Russian” as America is “British”.
Stop engaging in verbal gymnastic, swallow you Armenian pride and admit that you are wrong so that I can stop being angry…
Avetis,
I’ve been following your & Armen’s comments, which are very interesting.
I’m all for Armeno-Russian pact.Without it the ‘wolves’ will shred us to pieces.
One thing which is stopping me to support Armenia/Serj Sarkissian/or any other 100% is the widespread corruption in the government’s echelon starting from top till bottom.THIS HAS TO STOP.IT IS UNACCEPTABLE FOR US TO SEE OUR PEOPLE LIVING IN POVERTY.
The diaspora would properly back Armenia once this corruption ends.A simple calculation…if every able Armenian donates $100/year to Armenian fund or other…we can create a small miracle which can easily become a bigger one.
I agree 100% with VTiger. I support the pact but have issues with the Sarkissyan government….then again the Armenian opposition could be a lot worse.
Corruption exists in all nations, including Western European nations. Some of the worst corruption exists here in America. Our oligarchs are boyscouts compared to the financial/political elite that run the Western world today. It’s just that the acquired/plundered wealth in the West is so immense that the crumbs that fall of their banquet tables are enough for Western populations to maintain a good standard of living. But this is changing as the Western world plunges deeper into a global economic mess they created. Thus, it’s all relative. But the fact of the matter is, corruption is a human trait. It will never be eliminated, it can only be managed. Unfortunately, the only way “corruption” will be “managed” in Armenia is with a lot of time (a generation or two) and a lasting regional peace.
We are essentially talking about a post Soviet nation that has a tiny population, no resources, little production and limited export markets. Our shrewd businessman in our homeland are essentially fighting over the nation’s very limited economic assets, they are fighting over crumbs. This is the price one pays for having a people that is very ambitious and business-driven living in a land that is barren and embattled. We are also talking about a country that is landlocked, blockaded and surrounded by enemies in a turbulent/violent region. So, even in the best of domestic/internal circumstances, Armenia will still suffer from severe economic depression and wide spread poverty as a result of its neighborhood. It took the Western nations and America centuries of genocide, slavery, apartheid, exploitation, civil wars and immense war plunder to reach where they are today. Do not expect Armenia in twenty short years, in the Caucasus of all places, to reach Western standards.
Armenians need to educate themselves about the world they live in and stop pursuing fantasies which are hurting the homeland. We need to be rational, realistic and objective. President Serj Sargsyan is by-far better than the previous two presidents. I am very impressed by his political maturity and the people he has surrounded himself with. I am also very happy with the Russocentric path he has taken in the region. However, I realize that he is somewhat powerless against the nation’s powerful businessmen, including his brother. Just like when our ancient nakharars were more powerful that our sitting king, the wealthy businessmen of Armenia today are just as powerful, if not more, than our president. This is one of our fundamental problems we need to remedy. And this is in essence an Armenian problem. As a matter of fact, much of our domestic/social problems are a result of our national psyche. Let’s not forget that every government is an accurate reflection of the people they rule over.
Before we fix the Armenian economy, we first need to fix the Caucasus (I am confident Pax Russica will do that) and then we need to fix Armenians. Nevertheless, even with all its internal and external problems, Armenian is doing better today than most other nation. Armenia needs evolution not a Western funded revolution.
VTiger and Joseph: I also consider Armenia’s strategic partnership with Russia vital at this historical juncture, as I numerously stated above. And I, too, despise the corrupted, narrow-minded provincials in Armenia’s government. But I likewise denounce one-sided, unbalanced, sheer Russophile subservient approach towards relationship between Armenia and Russia, not because America or others are better, but because a nation that strives to stay independent to an optimal degree, must always “dance around” and try to avoid rigid alliances with any power center. This is my OTHER option for those who have hard time comprehending trivial things. Rigid alliances can be as detrimental, VTiger, as “the ‘wolves’ that could shred us to pieces.” We need to be watchful, observant, and capable of playing the balancing game well. Unrestrained Armenophobia of individuals like Avetis, who hardly bother themselves to read attentively what fellow-commentators here post and call for, that’s tainted with schizophrenic repetition of the same clichés, is clearly not helpful. People mean “state” of Russia as “petutyun,” not the formal title of Russia, and he accuses us of simple-mindedness in creating a fictional name for Russia, and then goes to moronic comparisons with the Soviet Union that was only formed in 1922, i.e. AFTER Western Armenian lands and Artshakh were given to the Turks and Azeries by the Bolshevik Russian government whoever ethnicity-wise they had in their ranks. I believe, VTiger, it were you who smartly described this whole issue on Armenia’s reliance on Russia: “A known devil is much better than an unknown angel.” Very true, nevertheless, it is a devil, as is any other state that’d first and foremost think of her own interests and not of the interests of Armenia’s independent statehood and the security of our people. This is all I call for to keep in mind.
To Vtiger,
Who was the only one here online to come a wee bit close to my repeated calls for a”National Invdestment Trust Fund “no Not just Fund Tiger…
If what you write about 100dollars a piece,even by a hundred thousand individuals,would only become a 10 million dollars fund(ling) compared to what I advocate..
Beginning with OUR MAGNATES EACH CHIPPING IN 2/300 MILLION DOLLARS TO BECOME more thana Billion dollars, when then the millionaires would invdst-getting more confidence-you see Tiger,if what you imagine as “donations” then someone like X would take care of it-and fly away To RIO..-.to dance Samba there,Capiche?
Whereas our billionaires do not need our 100 dollars a piece of 1000 dollars apiece..
The Control ,as well s the Board should be well planed from <TOP TO BOTTOM.
Friend of mine fomaed (his mouth that is) talking on local T.V. inviting, even addressing himseslf to Mamiks to chip in A DOLLAR.The man had no idea about Finances no nada…also he thought because he wasa straight giuy ,all others would be like him…
Any society -yes even us Armenians have amongst us people who are more corrupt in Diaspora than in RA/Artsakh put together.if you want exampls I shall point out,no not by me but the political(Armenian party) that chucked him out VRNDEC…
let alon non-politico just plain swiondlers etc.,
So if you are convinced that a well planeed “National Investment Trust Fund” is in place ask me to give more details….though I have touched on it a bit :IT HAS TO BE ORGANIZED BY OUR “pROFESSIONAL cOLLEAGGUES aSSOCIATIONS” VERY METHODICALLY. NO JUST MY FRIEND ABOVE ABOVE talking on T.V.
best rgds
G.P.
Avetis & Gaydzag shad parevner,
From all the above comments/commentators we see a very much worried diaspora.We are a very proud race/nation.Probably it is in our genes & unfortunately we can do nothing about it.Personally the Armenia/Russia defence pact gives me peace of mind that at least the neighbouring wolves will not be able to shred us until 2044.At least now we can breathe a bit more freely & concentrate more on nation/economy building in these harshest circumstances where our population has decreased tremendously.We need numbers on our lands in order to survive as a nation & to achieve this target employment needs to be created so that the locals do not emigrate.Flourishing economy might encourage the emigrated Hayasdantsis to go back as still they still have roots,family,property…
Gaydzag,only 100,000 able Armenians from a diapora of over 7 million?The Armenian government/Serj Sarkissian (& I totally agree with you Avetis re the president’s capabilities)has a big moral duty to show to all Armenians that he is fiercely fighting against corruption.He needs to strengthen our confidence so that we as diaspora can open our wallets more generously.Easily the 100,000 x $100 can become 2million x $100.
With such funds the schools can be refurbished…(Jesus you need only to visit any school to see the terrible conditions),subsidise financially for families to bear 4-5 children, & so on…
I do hope that we can somehow make our government listen to our worries…
Please my brothers & sisters keep up your comments,arguments & worries.We are survivors & we should be much more practical.
Sireli Armen,
True.There isn’t much difference in what you & Avetis are saying.It would be preferable to avoid personal insults so that a healthier discussion is continued.
As a race do we worry too much?Is it the side effect of the Genocide & odaroutyoun?
FIRSTLY THOUGH , TO Avetis,
Dear Avetis,
This last post/piece of yours is best yet that I have seen on this forum.No further comments.Very intelligent and to the point with all details necessary to stipulate it.
This second part is for Vtiger and all to whom my previous posts did not reach as it should,perhaps to Avetis, but he commented that these were my “intentions”.In short,not ,it needs to be elaborated further to sink in…
The 100,000 I mention are those dear Vtiger et al that will form the ELITE of the Diaspora,those elected by all Armenian “professionals”.They have back up Tiger!!! ,if not the 7 million,but a quarter of those.,including our present politico and their offshoots,in Diaspora. Now then,I would like to point out to AVETIS here that he is abrilliant critic ,but he DOES NOT show how to go about it to commence a non-unfriendly ACTION or Evolution towards again,FIRSTLY to put our own house in Diaspora in order,to re-organize it to MOBILIZE it,not in the fashion that dear harut Sassounian(with all respect to him) he proposed not many months back.All he dwelt on was how to go about getting votes voteds votes,like 20,000 Armenians of a community country -or a few small ones together,thus electing a Delegate.”Yeghav”?O.K.? no .and not it all takes us back to where we started Elections and elections for What? for getting our present BBB´s(Bishops,Bosses and benefactorres-like Ara Baliozian puts it? Replaced by new such.
For my Theses begins at the grass roots.This time not by the ordinary person on the street,like his proposal or for that matter the Vice-Ministre of Ministry of diaspora mr. Vartan Marashlyan has prepared in a 10/12 pages long “proposal”.Latter also with some variations only aims at Elections and that mainly UNDER THE UMBRELLA of them!!!
Whereas in mhy long article published in 157 & 159 issues June 29,July 2 of “Inknishkhanutyun” -not to mistake with 4rt Ishkhanutyun.this is called INKNISHKHANUTYUN,though an opposition in RA, but not quite the same as latter.
My theses is:-to Rely on our Huge Collectivities ,both in Fatherland and Diaspora on the “professional Colleagues Associations” Five on the scene,shall not repeat them,with ten more to come.Look it up in this column further up ,please. A clarification for Vtiger etal now:-My “paper” in this relation was presented to the Armenia-Diaspora Conference 2002 and was on the Armenia diaspora WEb site -along with 6 more such-for 4.5 yrs…
I,contrary to other proposals do not begin at the bottom.that is input of (as Vtiger imagines)WORKING CAPITAL,this is what it is dubbed in Corporate and businesses,bY A NUCLEUS ,comprised of our 6/8 magnates-One has just been added to previous 6 or 7 that of Moscow Armenian magnagte(which was in Forbes magazine,in Russian) these people ,upon a Plea presented by Harut for instance to kirk Kirkorian,me to Richard and Louis Manoogian and others to Vatche manoukina(U.K.) Ernekian in B-Aires,Cafesjian and aforementioned in Moscow and Honanians,from their B´s chipin each 200/300 million dollars to establish the “National Investment Trust Fund”.They themselves form the Board.Indeed,not necessarily personally directing it but through their appointed monetary experts.Then the Armenian Millionaires that abound join in,having been convinced and assured that this means Business,not Fund raising,Am style!!!
The those who wish to invest,being even more assured that those B´s do not need their 10,000 dollasrs invdestments or more,chip in INVEST.The fund is to be insoluble,is registered as any other Int´l Fund in Geneva,CH.it is for all ARMENIDAD, not just for Armenia/Artsakh.The monetary experts certainly know much better than self that the Fund must be re-invested ONLY in secure Gov. Funds.At present rendering some 5 /6% perannum.All investors will annually receive ,if all goes well and the world Economy does not go under a 3% interest.Follow? it has no similarity with All Armenia Fund,an open end one..IT STAYS THERE IN SWIZERLAND.Rest of it will be for LOANING TO ARMENIA/Artsakh and Javakhk too probably,plus indeed,as priority through the Armenian Supreme Council (5th Dept. in Moscow) -mpore about the 5 Departments,further ahead,to ORGANIZE A REAL REPATRIATION!!!!!!!
Then indeed,what is most needed to Through Diaspora¨s Supreme Council,to support Armenian Genocide Recognition efforts!!!
More to come.I´m a bit tired,shall follow up next.Please excuse me.
Hama Haigagani sIRO,
Gaytzag Palandjian
P.S. no any Armenian political party or organization is left out they can have plural membership and join in as their professions type.All thse all have their seats on the Supreme Council.Hold on….
It’s funny that the so-called “devil” is the fundamental reason why our enker Armen and every other Armenian on earth today have a homeland called Armenia…
Hell will freeze over before Armenians wake-up from their ego/emotion based fantasies. I’m still waiting for our “nationalists” to explain to me what “other options” does Armenia have. I also want to know why are the Russians considered to be “evil”. Armenia exists today because of them. Moreover, ethnic Russians/Orthodox Slavs are by-far one of the most embattled/victimized people on earth. Yet despite their great misfortunes, these people stay put, they rally, they pull through and they defeat their numerous enemies every single time – unlike us “proud” Armenians that flee the homeland every time the kak-hits-the fan…
Wake up and thank God that you have the Bear taking interest in our worthless piece of little property in the Caucasus. After taking a close look at the genocide obsessed dying diaspora, after taking a close look at the sad political scene in Armenia, after taking a close look at Armenia’s disorderly and dysfunctional people, I suggest you people also thank God that Serj Sargsyan is president today. One day you people will realize that the core problem with Armenia is Armenians and that governments are a reflection of the people.
God bless Mother Russia, God bless our Hyrenik. Russian-Armenian relations is the last front against pan-Turkism, American imperialism, NATO expansionism and Islamic fundamentalism. I am looking forward to Pax Russica in the Caucasus.
Enker gaytzag palandjian,
Thank you for your compliments. I have to say it takes an intellectual, honest and objective person to see my intentions on this board and appreciate my political rhetoric…
I answered your questions about the diaspora in my previous comments. I’ll elaborate further. In order for the diaspora to truly be an asset for Armenia, it first needs to:
Regulate its self-destructive obsessions with the Armenian genocide; which are being manipulated by the diaspora based organizations/parties that use the “Hay Dat” to maintain their positions of power. Our emphasis and obsessions with the tragedy in question has created generations of self-hating dysfunctional people with victim mentalities. Enough is enough. The Hay Dat needs to be used as a cleaver political tool for Armenia by Armenia’s foreign ministry, not as a heavy chain around our necks stopping usw from pursing longterm national interests – like when Sargsyan courageously signed the “protocols” amidst the genocide obsessed diaspora’s aggression and hysteria…
We in the diaspora desperately need to adopt Eastern Armenian as our common language to stop the a psychological/cultural divide that currently exists within our people. Western Armenian is dying a fast and miserable death. Not having a homeland any longer where it can evolve, this is inevitable. Accepting the official language of the Armenian Republic will also help the diaspora better understand the homeland. A uniform/common language is one of the core elements in national unity. Anyone that does not see the language problem we currently have is either deaf, dumb or blind. Incidentally, I am a “Western” Armenian.
We need to have our community, church and school representatives preach repatriation and nationalism. Our church, especially the diocese in America, is failing us severely. Our schools are a joke. The only thing that the average diasporan Armenian in America knows about his/her heritage is that Armenia was the first Christian nation and that we suffered a genocide. With “knowledge” like this, no wonder the vast majority of diaporan Armenians are trying very hard not to be Armenian these days…
We need to have a better educated population. We severely lack a healthy understanding of history and politics. Our ignorance of geopolitics is so severe that even when we have a great/positive development like the deepening of Russian-Armenian relations – our self-destructive peasantry sees great failure and tragedy…
Nevertheless, taking into consideration the caliber of people we have currently living in the Armenian diaspora today – I won’t be holding my breath. That is why I simply wished you luck in your mission impossible…
Thank you, VTiger, for your calm, civilized, and perceptive response.
Knee-jerk reactive people like tovarisch Avetis appear to have limited knowledge of history and insufficient intellectual prowess to think that “every Armenian on earth today has a homeland called Armenia [due to Russia], forgetting, or omitting intentionally, that in 1828 Russia took the eastern part of greater Armenia from Safavid Persia and not because of beautiful Armenian eyes, but because of her expansionist campaigns in the North Caucasus. Do we need to thank Russia for that? I believe we should for recovering the eastern part of greater Armenia from Persia but nonetheless putting it under the jurisdiction of the Russian empire. Hence, Russia, as well as any other super- or regional power, acted in pursuance of her own national interests. Therefore, maintaining the optimal balance among the countries with interests in the Caucasus region, in which Armenia is an element, is—I repeat for the some unperceptive dumbheads here—the best option for Armenia’s long-term survival. With the same token, what would other option be for Armenia, if “Mother Russia” abandons the country as a result of shifted geopolitical interests or domestic turmoil? In 1915, Western Armenians were not even in an alliance with Russia, but just hoped that Russian advances would free them from the Turkish yoke. But Russians—and I believe at that time all of them were ethnic Russians—followed their own interests in the World War One and halted advances into the Armenian-populated provinces of the Ottoman empire thus leaving scattered, impoverished, and unarmed Armenians tete-a-tete with the hordes of bloodthirsty Turkish mass murderers. Likewise, in the consecutive years Bolshevik Russians, representing the transitional revolutionary force and then the official government of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (and this time I’m referring to the official title of that state, because the term “state of Russia” appears to be hard-to-digest for the same dumbheads) signed agreements with the Kemalist Turks effectively giving up all Western Armenian lands to them. It was also the official party apparatus of the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic represented by Kavbureau that transferred Armenian land of Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) to Azerbaijan. Presenting the matter as if in these anti-Armenian actions Russian statesmen and decision-makers were not ethnic Russians but Australian aborigines is the most foolhardy argument I’ve ever heard. Those who presided in the Kremlin—weather Russians, Jews, Latvians, Georgians, Armenians, Moldovans, or Zulus of Africa—represented the official leadership of Russia, and the decisions on abandoning three quarters of Armenian lands plus Karabakh were made in their official capacity as statesmen of Russia.
Again, thanks, VTiger, for your response.
Dear Avetis,
I left my previous post unfinished addressed to Vtiger,promising to elaborate further on my,as you put it..”mission impossible”.If you copied latter from fiolm that name,it ends with Triumph by the by…I have patience.Five of those PCA´s “Prof.Colleagues Assoc.” formed already anyhow.
I beg to differ slightly as to language issues.Though I do agree that official language is the Eastern Armenian(I speak write both by the by,am half Nakhijevantsi).
When many many in Diaspora do not even speak Armenian,we should ALSO convince RA Government to go back to the classical Armenian mode,.not the soviet imposed.
As to Genocide Recognition,aagain this will be our main objective-besides re-organization of the Diaspora(s).It is NOT an obsession,.it is our JUST CAUSE.Many gave their lives for it don´t forget,besides the 1.5 million martyrs,I refer to our freedom fighters old and new.
great Turkey for your info if not fears,is well aware of one thing that the Western Armenians are those evicted murdered(ancestors) not those East side.Thence,I don´t see anything wrong in this sector(immense majority in the Euro-Am countries,even Russia) continusing Demand of Justice and Reparations.Armenia ,in the near pst did not do anything is this connection,why Kocharyan erroneously or fearing reprisal declared we have no territorial demands ….
To surmise I don´t have any objections as to better relations with Russia,quite the contrary.But we must take into consideration the other side,our adcversary so far has been and is supported by Euro-Ams…thence and they may also press ,like did in the Rapprochement …just to hand Paris old Nor Haratch publication in which an article shows quite clearly that U.S. Embassy is backing up an Armenian Turkish film making “adventure”nay funding it…you see the pother side of the coin must be looked at also.More importantly likde British Ambassador,when the G8 were meeting in Canada,last month or July,and isntead of concentrating on the MISSION to try find solution for the world Economic crunch,OF ALL THINGS placed on their agenda our Timy NK conflict issue..he then openly the Brit Ambassador declared to panarmenian.net correspondent that “Energy issue is at stake.the parts must compromise””””
You see they have their say too and in such cases Russia also IN…
Let us suffice with our own and first try to solve our DIASPORA problems.
Hama Haiogaagani SIRO,
G.P:
Gaytzag
“Just cause” quickly turns into an “obsession” when its adherents use it to sabotage Armenia’s national interests. “Just cause” quickly turns into an “obsession” when its adherents cannot see past it. “Just cause” quickly turns into an “obsession” when its adherents cannot see themselves as Armenians without it. The diaspora is a dead end. What’s important for me is Armenia’s survival in the Caucasus – not the obsessive whims of the diaspora.
As long as the diaspora clings to its “Western Armenian” identity it will never fully (spiritually and physically) be in union with the Armenian homeland. The diaspora is a dead end. What’s important for me is Armenia’s survival in the Caucasus – not the obsessive whims of the diaspora. I realize how difficult all this may be for many of you here to understand. Perhaps in another life you’ll understand me…
Armen
Your Armenian ego wont allow you to understand what I mean when I say “Armenia exists because of Russia”. To those who have difficulty with comprehension: The Russian Empire created a geopolitical climate in the Caucasus that later allowed an Armenian state to be formed. For the first time in Armenian history, Armenians were able to open secular schools and create political and social organizations under the Russian Czars. Armenians had a golden age in the 19th century as a direct result of the Russian invasion of the Caucasus. Armenian writers and poets from this time period were Rusophiles including one of our greatest, Abovian.
Although the 20s and 30s were very dark times in the Soviet Union, by the end of the Second World War, when ethnic Russians were back in prominence in Moscow, the Soviet government allowed the territory of Armenia to become a republic within the union. Under the Soviet system, Armenia became a modern nation with many institutions of higher learning and did not fear Turkish incursions.
Currently, our embattled Armenia survives in the Caucasus primarily due to the crucial support it receives from the Russian Federation. Even a child would understand that the Russian presence in the Caucasus has allowed the creation of an Armenian state and it remains the single most important factor in keeping Armenia viable today. So, had it not been for drunk Ivan invading the Caucasus two hundred years ago, Armenian nationalists like myself, Gaytzag and Armen would be living in Iran or Turkey not much different than Yezdis and Kurds.
But because Armenians like to argue and do anything in their power regardless of how silly it may be to try to make their opposition look bad, I expect enker Armen to continue with his verbal gymnastic to prove to me that Armenia came into existence because of Santa Claus…
Avetis,
You are beginning to exaggerate the Russian factor in the emergence of the First Republic of Armenia.True,they were there with us only temporarily.You have to study history a bit more in depth. When the 1917 Russian Revolution started,they abandoned their military positions in Kars,Ardahan and ran back home..leaving the Armenians to make do with whatever military force they had.On top of that another betrayal was by the British then,when they left all their military hardware cache to the kemalists.Do read and re read history books,like prof. R.g.Hovanissian,Dadrian,Dedeyan of Montpellier,Prov. Arthur Beylerian(my friend, in Paris now deceased)then Ms. Akabi nassibian of London(Great Britain and the Armenian Question-by her9 then prof.Ohanian of B-Aires ,most of whom have delved into Gov. archives of foreign countries before writing…
you are incognizant of the fact that then Armenians defended,best they could-having retrieved to near Sardarabad,Abaran karakilisse and threw back the turks,not letting them enter Yerevan.However, next in 1920,the kemalists well furbished by the Anglo´s and Russian GOLD,yes gold Lenin gave them GOLD ,hoping he could also make the turks enter into his sphere of blossoming Communism.HE WAS DEAD WRONG!!!
Turks,Arabs and Persians would never adopt/accept a communist regime,not even now or never.Why they will not as much as accept Socialism in any of its formats,NOT EVEN THE SWEDISH MILDER one.They are firstly moslem(with all respect to the religion)then they know another religion that OF MONEY, finances,oil money(easy) etc.,This for you to know and others.I have lived long enough in that area to know what they believe in.
The Empires you speak of-take an example,recent one-The British Empire,became Great Britian,then U.K. and further ahead may transform into just plain England.Russia?
Their soviet Empire collapsed only recently.True they are now emerging by and by and this also as against Anglo-American alliance emerging,also China.We cannot afford to side with any of these TOTALLY.At present what you describe maybe a bit correct,since,neither Azerbaijan nor big brother great Turkey ae throwing their weights about-because of support,so far,from the Anglo-Ams.But wait and see.Presently there are signs,albeit very small and few that the main supporter maybe “harto”spanish,means fed up sort of with their siding with an “ally” that is not so reliable and also, they are stopping to think over how much mORE NON RETURNABLE AID SHOULD BE PUMPED INTO THAT COUNTRY..at a time when their own house does not present a very bright present and future…
So do not cross the line when upholding one side against other.We need to find out through what other small,medium size nations we can have our CAUSE,yes cause,not obsession,much as you try to downgrade it-we shall win more such allies/partners and forge ahead ON OUR OWN.This is precisely where the Diaspora comes in..IF
it is re-organized to be supported by the Huge Collectivities I speak of,the more than ahundred thousand strong Professionals,THEIR HUMAN RESOURCES,as well as their ECONOMIC POWER,THE(NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND). AND suddenly you reverto our past intellectuals.Definitely they went West to acquire more knowledge,sciences etc.,but for your infor he Abovian studies in Prussia not Russia,lots of others did though in Russia.What do you think I do not agree that they did not acquire it in Middle Easstern countries.But times have changed.Nowadasy even palestinians,Persians are better educated etc.,
Thence,think of what we can accomplish if we turn our above two ELEMENTS into a viable Asset,then we can indeed help RA/Artsakh become stronger. To hope that others only will help us through is incorrect.Getzze Hayastan and hayortis who believe in a strong Armenia witha strong Spyurk
best to you,
G.P.
Dear Gaytzag,
I’d advise that you stop wasting your time debating with a person who’s just blowing hot air not even attempting to perceive that fellow commentators here don’t essentially disagree on Armenia’s strategic partnership with Russia at this juncture, but simply call on being watchful for a trivial actuality that in all historical instances Russia, as well as any other nation, would behave pursuing to her own national interest. National interest is not a static notion: it changes, undergoes evolutional or revolutional transformation, adapts to changing domestic or geopolitical circumstances. I brought up several examples in recent history when pressed by her own national interest or domestic circumstances, Russia had to abandon Armenians (withdrawal from the Caucasus fronts during WWI, signing of Kars and Moscow treaties effectively giving up Western Armenian lands to the Turks, transferring Artsakh to Azerbaijan, etc.). I also brought examples when following her own national interest Russia actually saved eastern part of greater Armenia from Persian domination, but put it under her own jurisdiction pursuing her own national interest during the 18th and 19th-centuries aimed at expansion southward to North- and TransCaucasus. National “ego” has nothing to do with the depiction of true historical facts that some intellectual midgets with twisted logic here so fiercely deny only to satisfy their little egos and underline their personal significance by associating themselves with a “stronger side.” You’re absolutely right, Armenia, as well as other Transcaucasian nations, were reluctant to come out of the Russian empire and form independent states in the face of explicit Turkish threat. That’s why they first formed Transcaucasian Federative Republic, which was ineffective formation, and then each reluctantly declared independence. Russia has absolutely nothing to do with their emergence; she was only the cause for their formation. To say that the Russian Empire created a geopolitical climate in the Caucasus that later allowed an Armenian state to be formed is like to have a haunted fart in the toilet on an uninhabited island. Sorry. But Russia certainly played a role in occupying these three independent republics in 1920-1921. The same effect comparison come to mind when a person tries to convince us that Armenians were able for the first time in their history(?!) to open schools and create political and social organizations under the Russian Czars. What? Right across the borders of the Russian empire, in Western Armenia colonized by the Turks, Armenians—though heavily oppressed—were able, too, to open schools, practice religion, and create political and social organizations. Not to mention the medieval centuries when Armenia was an independent or semi-independent state or at various times various independent Armenian principalities existed: at almost all times schools functioned and at least two golden ages in culture, architecture, literature are recorded in the history books. There’s nothing static in geopolitics. At this time Russia is the only protector of Armenia’s security clearly at the expense of Armenia’s independence, but that’s the price we have to pay for this rigid alliance. At this juncture, preservation of Armenia depends on it, so be it, but being always watchful for changing geopolitical situation and/or emergence of other regional powers or alliances would never harm Armenia’s ability to maneuver deftly in a turbulent region.
Regards,
A
Dear Gaytzag,
I’m not exaggerating anything. I’m really getting frustrated explaining simple historical facts that all Armenians should already know. Please try to think broad. You are engaging in selective reasoning. You are using tunnel vision. You are refusing to look at the big geopolitical/historical picture. From the times of Israel Ori and David Bek to the Armenian revolutionary movements in the 19th century, Czarist Russia was the single most influential factor in allowing Armenians to develop a “national identity” and create a homeland amidst a Turkic/Iranian/Tatar/Islamic cesspool in the Caucasus. The Russian Czars played an active role in shaping our peasantry’s “nationalistic” sentiments as well as helping Armenians to establish secular schools and institutions. Our great intellectuals, artists and militarymen of the 19th century were all Russian trained. The great military men that eventually formed the Armenian republic in 1918 by defeating Turks – men like Andranik, Dro, Nzteh, Silikian, etc. – were all trained and armed by the Russian Empire.
When Russia was forced to retreat from the Caucasus due to the Western organized Jew-led Bolshevik revolution, Turks used it as an opportunity to eliminate Armenians in Asia Minor. Turks managed a genocide because Russia was too weak to stop them. Our Russian trained and armed military officers were barely able to create a homeland in 1918 (btw, large numbers of Czarist Russian officers also fought alongside Armenians in Sardarapat). Nevertheless, it was a fragile/dysfunctional homeland without allies, funds or arms – thus, it could not survive. That is why the ARF leadership decided to abandon the republic to the Bolsheviks in 1921 – to the lesser of the two evils.
Any serious/objective historian would agree that the Russian Empire and then the Soviet Union played the single most influential role in helping Armenians establish a homeland in the Turkic/Islamic cesspool like the Caucasus. Without Russians coming into our region two hundred years ago, you me and every other Armenians on earth today would still be living like Kurds and Yezdis in the mountains of Anatolia and the Caucasus. What you people here are expressing is not nationalism or patriotism – it’s wild fantasies than can harm Armenia if it ever gets excepted as reality.
I’m simply dumbfounded at how irrational and ignorant Armenians are today. That is why I fear Armenia ever attaining “democracy”. Imagine the absurd/wild sentiments we see on these boards effecting government policy making. Enough to give me nightmares. No wonder Western powers try to impose “democracy” on lesser nations. The thing called “democracy” is the single most efficient way to breakdown societies and ready them for exploitation – Armenians can do without it.
Just watch, now our “nationalists” will say something stupid like – if Russia really wanted to help Armenians they could have helped us form a homeland in next to Switzerland.
Watching Armenians discuss politics or history is like watching women gossiping.
Dear both Armen and Avetis,
I wish at some point you two would converge ,compromise(especially Avetis) and respect ea other´s viewpoints and accept facts as they are(even come from me too.
First to Avetis,please be informed that my father went through “Sanasarian” secondary school in Karin(Erzroum) graduating with gold medal,learnt Armenian,Turkish and ..French too.This during Abdul Hamid period.Then In Bolis he studied ,while working at a rich Jewish firm,earning some monies ,sending to his family back home…
In Bolis,according to him ,why indeed also to records many aan Armenian schools learning institutions existed and the Bolsahayes ALSO gave forth intellectuals as Siamanto,Varouzhan and a host of others.Meanwhile the ARF also was very active there along the other Armen political parties…so to deny that it is tantamounto…I don´t like to use harsh words dear Avetis…I hate that.Let us all be tolerant to ea other and ea other´s viewpoints and CONVERGE-
Today-for your info I follow Armenian news almost daily and to the hour too.Medvedev in Baki(the way the azeris pronounce it9 according to kin-I did not see that part,again Alieve like old times,when with father had washed theri faces with petrol showing to the world theior utter ignorance, he today had some sort of a tube showing to Medvedev and the world that OIL flows through it ,to that effect.
i would not be surprised that they also concoct up some agreement w/ea other…
So let us stick to ojur own.Right now,do please excuse me my car broke down,am to go fix it ,later I shall expand and EXPLAIN HOW WE CAN SHOW TO AZERIS AND COUSIN OUR HUMAN RESOURCES AND IN EXSTENSION OUR ECONOMIC MIGHT ONCDE WE RE-ORGANIZE AROUND MULTI BILLION DOLLARS “nAT´L aRM.tRUST fUND”…
BEST TO YOU BOTH
G.P
Armen,
I asked you to give me “other option” you and everybody else here constantly talk about… I want to know what else can Armenia do that it’s not currently doing? Please explain in a knowledgeable, objective, rational and balanced manner. I’m listening, I’m all ears.
Before we get into rhetoric like “let’s be nuanced” or “let’s be careful” or “let’s not ruin our relationships with others” or “Armenia needs to leave its options open”, approaches I wholeheartedly agree with, let’s first thoroughly and rationally understand the geopolitical realities of the Caucasus and the historical impact our relationship with Russia has had on us.
You may know these things quite well, but most Armenians in the diaspora today are clueless. I come across as pro-Russian simply because there is an active anti-Russian agenda in Armenian circles both in and out of the republic by Washington operatives and the West’s state controlled news media. Open your eyes and you’ll see. Your “nuanced” approach regarding Armenian-Russian relations is helping those who seek to put a wedge between Yerevan and Moscow.
Avetis,
Since you lowered down your Armenophobic rhetoric in your last comment, I’ll try to answer your questions. By the way, I’m an Armenian from the republic, not affiliated with any political party, and came to believe that Diaspora, as an institute formed as a result of tragedy that’s befallen the nation, is an invaluable asset for the republic. You may disparage their role, mock their perceived fundamental nature, or even claim that they’re dying, but however hard you try you won’t be able to disregard the fact that by their very existence and effective advocacy efforts Diasporans do assist Armenia. However dispersed, big-mouthed, or politically detached the Diasporans may be, there’s one thing that unites them: unconditional love for Armenia. Some less, some more, some even may be unconcerned, but, in essence, most people I’ve met share to various degree the pain, the pride, and the challenges that the nation faces. There’s no doubt about it.
I believe earlier in this discussion I already gave commentators my version of “other option,” and I believe I’ve done so in objective, rational, and balanced manner, although I don’t claim to be right. But I’ll repeat. Maintaining optimal balance among all countries with interests in the South Caucasus region, where Armenia is a component is, to me, “other option” for Armenia’s long-term survival as relatively independent nation-state. While I salute Armenia’s strategic partnership with Russia at this juncture, I’m at the same time worried that this partnership has evolved into a rigid alliance that in its foundation has relationship more resembling patron-client relations, rather than regular inter-state relations. I tend to believe that the limit of allowance for compromising the country’s independence and self-rule has been crossed due to the policies of the Armenian authorities. This is troubling, because rigid alliances maybe as detrimental as external threats. In this respect, what would “other option” be for Armenia, if “Mother Russia” abandons the country as a result of shifted geopolitical interests or domestic turmoil? Would you have “other option” for us, if this happens? Or maybe you have it now, please share, we’re listening, we’re all ears. I think the optimal balance that I present as “other option” has been grossly upset. I can sense you may be tempted to ask what I’d expect in the threatening situation that surrounds Armenia? I have an answer for you. I’d expect that the authorities focus more on domestic reforms to correct to an optimal extent the upset balance that emerged as a result of military and national security threats to Armenia. But that’s not happening. Instead, the authorities have transferred virtually all domestic assets to Russian hands: banking, communications, railroads, industrial enterprises however miserable shape they’re in, nuclear power plant, etc. Consequently, Armenia has become a client state and client states are believed to be dealt with however the patron state wishes. This is what’s bothering me, and this is why I call for being watchful and open for changing geopolitical circumstances to try to maintain the balance. As for “anti-Russian agenda in Armenian circles both in and out of the republic by Washington operatives and the West’s state controlled news media,” I know and am equally wary of them, too. I think had our rulers been more accountable to people’s needs, more public-spirited, more patriotic and less corrupt and self-centered, the balancing act that I’m proposing would have been easier to maintain. But since they’re corrupt, they become more susceptible to foreign agendas and more subservient to foreign, not domestic, needs.
P.S. By the way, as much as it’s true that “the great military men that eventually formed the Armenian republic in 1918–men like Andranik, Dro, Nzhdeh, Silikov, etc.–were trained and armed by the Russian Empire,” it’s also true that had there not been Armenian whit and military talent none of those men could have raised in ranks in the Russian imperial army. With the same token, had there not been Armenian whit and military talent the Russian Soviet army wouldn’t have in their ranks such brilliant military commanders as Baghramian, Babadjanian, Khanferiants (Khudiakov), Isakov, and others, who had their share in bringing victory to Russians. There’s no need for one-sidedness in evaluating things, events, or personae.
Armen jan,
I already knew you wouldn’t have any real answers, solutions or “other options”. You simply have concerns and worries; no political alternatives to what Armenia is already doing. Despite what you may want to believe, official Yerevan today is pursuing a brilliant foreign policy – good relations with America, good relations with Europe, good relations with Iran, open door for good relations with Ankara – and all under Russia’s protective umbrella. Without a strong Russian presence in the region, without allowing Moscow to pursue their regional interests from within a pro-Russian Armenia, our republic cannot survive. Instead of complaining and fear-mongering about Russia’s growing role in the region, think of ways our “shrewd” and “cunning” compatriots can exploit this unique opportunity to Armenia’s benefit. With a pan-national effort and some time, Armenians can become in Russia what Jews are in America. But first, we need to stop our ignorance of politics and history, stop our Russophobia, as well as ending our Cold War/Ottoman/Bolshevik era mentalities.
I agree with you that as long as our people’s living standards are low, Western intelligence agencies will be able to foment unrest in Armenia. However, corruption exists in all nations, including Western nations. Corruption is a human trait. Pooer nations feel the consequences of corruption than wealthier nations. It took the Western world hundreds of years of war plunder, genocide, slavery, civil wars and cast system to reach where it is today. Armenia cannot become “Western” in merely one generation, and in the Caucasus of all places. We are placing unhealthy/counterproductive expectations on our homeland. It’s the people’s responsibility to better understand the world and politics and to engage in healthy/constructive political activism. Moreover, realize that even without the corruption, a tiny, resourceless and landlocked Armenia will still remain poor and isolated – simply due to the political nature of the Caucasus. As long as American, Russian, European, Turkish and Iranian interests continue competing in the Caucasus – Armenia will remain, poor, isolated and endangered. There has to be a victor in the great geopolitical game and that victor has to be Russia. What the Caucasus desperately needs peace in the form of Pax Russica. Without this peace Armenia will remain an embattled third world nation on the brink of being a failed state.
PS: I realize that you are very intelligent and nuanced. Just put aside your ego and try to understand where I’m coming from. The world does not revolve around us. In this world, it’s not enough to be Armenocentric.
Avetis,
If you already knew that I wouldn’t have any “real answers, solutions” or “other options,” one would wonder as to why you invited me to lay out one? Also, your enquiry was regarding “other option,” not “real answers and solutions.” I’m not Lord Almighty to give you “real answers and solutions,” but I can share my perspective for “other option,” which I believe I did. If you wish to negate it by a stroke of the pen and stick to what you believe, that’s your problem, not mine.
Yes, I also—not just “simply”—have concerns and worries in relation to “other option” that provides political alternatives to what Armenian leadership is already doing. In short, the leadership is not utilizing to the optimal extent the many diverse possibilities at their disposal: be it domestic economic and political reforms, or the potential human resources, or the potential of the Diaspora—Russian, Western, Middle Eastern or Latin American notwithstanding, or greater Western involvement in the process of laying the foundations of civil society, accountable governance, viable infrastructures, rule of law, and democracy-building. Any of these does not necessarily rule out the other, but in their entirety they fail to serve the optimal balance option in the hands of the Armenian authorities as a political alternative to Armenian-Russian “client-patron”-type relationship option. In this context, I disagree that “official Yerevan today is pursuing a brilliant foreign policy–good relations with America, good relations with Europe, good relations with Iran, open door for good relations with Ankara–and all under Russia’s protective umbrella.” You shift the emphasis: it is not that official Yerevan today pursues these avenues so “brilliantly,” but that none of these avenues could be pursued had there not been Russia’s consent to pursue them. Armenia’s relations with America are strictly limited to and modeled on cooperation programs in which Russia partakes, not more than that. Good relations with Europe are strictly limited to cooperation programs and formats to which Russia doesn’t object. Good relations with Iran are strictly dominated by Russia’s geopolitical and economic interests in the broader region and cannot go beyond them even in terms of a radius of a natural gas pipeline through Armenia that Russia has determined for Yerevan. Open door for good relations with Ankara—the conditions for which are largely criticized by the majority of the Armenians in Armenia and the Diaspora—would never open had there not been tacit Russian approval as testified by the presence of Lavrov behind Armenian and Turkish foreign ministers’ backs at signing. I have hard time admitting that these doubling or replicating actions can be categorized as “shrewd” and “cunning.” I also have hard time understanding as to why you constantly emphasize “a tiny, resourceless, and landlocked Armenia” as a major prerequisite for wide-spread corruption in the country? There are other countries in roughly similar geopolitical situation, but the fundamental nature and unique mentality of their governments have nonetheless allowed them to minimize or avoid to the optimal degree the causes, effects, and cases of corruption. Why is it that nowhere in your comments did you mention as one of the causes for corruption and government’s inability to lead effectively the factor of provincialism of the rulers and businessmen? How can unelected, unrepresentative, largely unprofessional, and semi-literate leaders govern effectively even in a country that’s “tiny, resourceless, and landlocked.” You seem to put emphasis only on external factors, whereas the emphasis should also be made on internal ones. I think that the level of effective governance has degraded considerably mainly because of the outflow of intelligentsia and the inflow of provincials whose self-centered, narrow-minded mentality have created an atmosphere in which corruption and nepotism flourished to the extent much greater than it could exist if erudite, good-mannered, and experienced professionals would be in power.
PS: I consider myself a cosmopolitan person, so do those who know me for decades. As such, having megalomaniac “ego” and being self-centered are alien notions to me. I understand where you’re coming from and I don’t disagree that at this historical juncture partnership with Russia is a must, but I think that this partnership has evolved into a dangerous clientism for Armenia and hope that you’d also understand where I’m coming from. By the way, Jews in America to a large extent serve the interest of Israel, for which much criticism has been voiced, whereas Armenians in Russia for now largely serve “Mother Russia.” The world does not revolve around Armenians, no doubt about it, but, to me, it’s more appropriate to be an Armenian and be “ethnocentric,” than to be an Armenian and be essentially “xenocentric.”
Armen jan,
Don’t take my comment about you not having solutions and/or alternatives too personally. Of course you won’t have any alternative plans because so such thing exists for us today. All I’m saying is that Armenian officials today have taken the best course they could have taken under the geopolitical circumstances they currently find themselves in.
If you read what I wrote closely you would have seen that I blame the “widespread” corruption on the average Armenian today, and not on the government per se. Governments are a reflection of the people. A people/nation who’s sociopolitical and cultural inspiration has been derived from Turkic, Islamic and Bolshevik influences for the past one thousands years CANNOT be normal. One thousands years of cultural and genetic damages cannot be cured in a few short years.
Having said that, I want to reiterate once again since there seems to be a problem with truly understanding the essence of the problem we have: a tiny, isolated, resourcless, impoverished, landlocked, blockaded, post-Soviet nation surrounded by enemies in one of the world’s most volatile and violent place like the Caucasus – even if our “corrupt oligarchs” sprouted angel’s wings Armenia would still be poor and endangered. One day, you will understand that the problem with Armenia is its backward/ignorant/emotional people as well as the nasty neighborhood Armenia finds itself in.
Having said that, Serj Sargsyan is by-far the best president we have had (although knowing the previous two, especially Levon, that’s not saying much ). Why can’t Armenians appreciate progress however slow? Besides, seeing the utterly barren and decrepit political field in Armenia today, I thank God that we have a president like Serj because as a nation we actually deserve someone much worst. I also thank God that Yerevan’s current administration and the Kremlin have secured Armenia’s future in the Caucasus. Had Armenia’s future been entrusted to our big talking and impotent diaspora or “Yerevantsis” for that matter, Armenia would have been either sold to Turks or overrun by Turks a long time ago. We saw what happened to Armenia in the 1990s during the time when Armenia was truly “independent” and at the hands of “Yerevantsi” leadership.
There are not many nations on earth (if any at all) that have Armenia’s problems both internal and external. Nevertheless, thanks to Artsakhtsis in Yerevan and the Kremlin – our tiny, poor, barren and isolated Armenia today is doing much better than most other nations in better geopolitical and sociopolitical circumstances.
Stop blaming Russians for controlling Armenia’s gas/oil distribution network, telecommunications, the railroad, as well as running our nuclear powerplant… Since we Armenians could not do anything with the infrastructure in question – Moscow bought it, they modernized it, they maintain it and they have put at our disposal. This is ultimately why Moscow has been pushing Yerevan and Ankara together. Russia wants to project its economic power in the region via Armenia, its reliable platform in the region. This is a great historic opportunity for Armenia to come out of its stagnation and isolation. Nevertheless, be thankful for the billions of dollars Russians have spent in upgrading Armenia’s infrastructure because ultimately it all belongs to us. But let’s be realistic. Naturally, when serious politics come into play, like when Iran wanted to join the energy game in Armenia and the Caucasus, Moscow will set limits.
Regardless of how well meaning, educated and/or worldly we Armenians may be today we seem to lack a deep and healthy understanding of issues relating to politics and history. And ethnocentrism (patriotism/nationalism) is crucial in the home, but when it comes to assessing the political world around us, ethnocentrism can be a serious problem for us.
Avetis,
As much as I could agree with some of your thoughts, there are certain things that I think are shifted in some of them or are misleading in others.
In particular, I’m unconvinced that Armenian officials have taken the “best course” under the geopolitical circumstances they find themselves in because reforms and possibilities that I laid out as components of “other course” have so far been largely unperformed or underperformed. I fail to see how the harsh geopolitical circumstances—in which Armenian officials find themselves—can possibly impede or otherwise obstruct the realization of domestic reforms, involvement of open-minded professionals, utilization of the potential of Diaspora, or Western democracy-building assistance programs.
I also fundamentally disagree with the scheme in which corruption is blamed on the average Armenian and not on the government per se. Governments are a reflection of the people? Maybe. But don’t you think you forgot to put “elected” before “governments”? How can Armenian governments—past or present—be the “reflection of the people,” if the people have virtually no say in electing them and those who raise their voice in opposition are suppressed or silenced? How can these governments be the “reflection of the people,” if they neither represent the people nor are accountable to them?
While I’d agree that a “thousand years of cultural and genetic damages cannot be cured in a few short years,” it’s hypothetical to suggest that “a people whose socio-political and cultural inspiration has been derived from Turkic, Islamic, and Bolshevik influences for the past one thousand years cannot be normal.” First, why “one thousand” years? Last Armenian independent kingdom ceased to exist in the end of the 14th century, after which there was Ottoman domination for roughly 500 years, after which there was a Soviet domination for roughly 75 years. However, I’d argue that even being suppressed or colonized, Armenians were able to demonstrate their natural wit and talents as “normal” people, even more so during the years of the Soviet rule. Soviet Armenia registered impressive growth: culture flourished, arts and sciences flourished, industrial enterprises developed, educational institutions registered one of the highest rate as compared to other Soviet republics. Yes, ideological brainwashing has shaped a specific mindset and worldview, but people’s social and moral values, as well as intellectual prowess, were impeccable. Workforce that was well-educated and intelligentsia that was highly-erudite was almost a norm. Aren’t these indications of “normalcy” even under the colonialist circumstances? What happened to these invaluable resources under the rule of post-Soviet regimes from LTP to SS? Are Armenia’s “best and brightest” non-achiever thickheads like our “businessmen”? In no way were people “backward” or “ignorant” during the Soviet times; we’ve seen noble intellectuals that represented the nation in politics, sciences, business, and arts. People have become backward under regimes that ruled Armenia since independence, and Serge is no exception. I have hard time understanding how a president can be classified as “by-far the best,” if he hasn’t even been elected by the people? “Best” for whom? For flies? Exactly what “progress” do you call upon Armenians to appreciate? That just as LTP and RK before him, Serge, too, falsified elections and came to power as a result of bloodshed? For the widespread governmental corruption? For nepotism? For notorious clan system? For unnecessary monetary fluctuations that hit ordinary people’s pockets?
I denounce stratification of Armenians as “Diasporans”, “Yerevantsis,” or “Artsakhtsis.” You accuse Armenians of being “peasantry,” but isn’t the stratification of co-ethnics by their birthplace a demonstration of sheer provincialism? It’s also highly hypothetical to suggest that “had Armenia’s future been entrusted to our big talking and impotent Diaspora or ‘Yerevantsis’ for that matter, Armenia would have been either sold to Turks or overrun by Turks a long time ago.” If you mean LTP, well, I’d agree, knowing that the guy served several sinister forces at one time, but ultimately—and luckily—was overthrown by another “Yerevantsi.” We also saw the duumvirate of two “Yerevantsis,” which, to me, was the most promising political duo for Armenia’s development had they not been murdered. You should understand that whatever “happened in Armenia in the 1990s during the time when Armenia was at the hands of ‘Yerevantsi’ leadership,” was a painful transitional period from Communism to Common Sense led by people who saw no liberal or participatory governance, just the Soviet repressive order. RK and SS are not exceptions: they were bred in the same system. I’d perhaps agree that compared to other nations in similar geopolitical and socio-political circumstances Armenia today is doing better, but in no way thanks to the government. The merit goes to Armenia’s hardship-enduring, entrepreneurial, and industrious people, remittances they send to the homeland, as well as Diaspora’s investments and foreign countries’ aid.
It’s also misleading to say that “since Armenians couldn’t do anything with the infrastructure in question – Moscow bought it, they modernized it, they maintain it and they have put at our disposal.” First, Armenia’s gas and oil distribution network, telecommunications, the railroad, industrial enterprises, as well as nuclear power plant, were not actually bought, they were acquired by Moscow as a result of dubious “debt-for-equity” swaps. Second, they were transferred to Moscow’s hands not because “Armenians couldn’t do anything with them,” but because the deal granted Moscow unreserved ownership of Armenia’s infrastructure for political control purposes. And third, Russia has almost no incentive to utilize these enterprises to full capacity or finance their modernization. So far Russians haven’t spent a dime for upgrading Armenia’s infrastructure, and I have no clue as to where “billions of dollars” already invested by Moscow came from?
To me, “a deep and healthy understanding of issues relating to politics and history” derives from national interest, played upon, of course, to an optimal extent because we, obviously, live in a community of nations with conflicting interests, not in the desert. As for ethnocentrism, I agree that the notion can be a serious problem, and only used it to suggest that it’s more appropriate (not that it’s panacea for all woes) to be an Armenian and be ethnocentric, rather than be an Armenian and be Russo-, Americo-, or Sinocentric .
Avetis,
Armen´s last paragraph especially-including all his arguments,comments are a bit more in line with my viewpoints and way of thinking.
While I also appreciate your viewpoints,I tend to incline to his(Armen´s)”more appropriate” stance. Please note he also adds it is not a panacea for all woes,which says it all.
Flexibility in diplomacy is of the utmost importance.
best rgds
Armenia Displays Sophisticated Air Defense Systems
http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=37381&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=27&cHash=c43c15cf0b