Sleeping with Our Enemy: Russia Sells Weapons to Azerbaijan

Russia has sold some $4 billion worth of modern weapons to Azerbaijan in the past few years, with perhaps more to come. These include S-300 air defense missiles, Mi-35M combat helicopters, T-90 tanks, Kornet anti-tank missiles, MSTA-S 152mm self-propelled artillery, and the highly destructive Smerch Multiple Launch Rocket System.

Map of Armenia, NKR, and Azerbaijan (Photo: Makar Ghazaryan/Creative Commons)
Map of Armenia, NKR, and Azerbaijan (Photo: Makar Ghazaryan/Creative Commons)

Since Azerbaijan’s 1994 defeat in the Karabagh/Artsakh War, its leaders have declared their intention to seize Artsakh by force. Azeris regularly shoot across, and try to penetrate Artsakh’s ceasefire line. They have made territorial claims on Armenia and are even shelling villages in Armenia itself.

Armenia and Russia are allies and have a mutual defense pact. Russian troops help guard Armenia’s border with Turkey. Armenia is Russia’s only ally in the Caucasus. Why then is Russia supplying sophisticated weapons to a country that is not just Armenians’ enemy but also hostile to Russian interests?

 

Selling to the enemy

Arms sales generate immediate profit for Russia, plus continuing income from spare parts and future upgrades. The Russian military may also reason that it knows best how to counter its own weapons should it go to war with Azerbaijan. Perhaps Russia is embedding secret hardware and software vulnerabilities into Azeri weapons to disable them should the need arise.

Russia argues that if it won’t sell weapons to Azerbaijan, other countries will. Yet Baku has bought arms elsewhere: $1.6 billion worth from Israel, including Hermes drones and Spike anti-tank missiles, and significant amounts from Belarus, Turkey, and Ukraine.

By having Azerbaijan partly dependent on Russian weaponry, Moscow presumes it is co-opting Azeris and making them less likely to join NATO and supply gas and oil to the West. Are Azeris really that gullible? Baku could just be buying time until, with Turkey and NATO, it can strike back at Russia’s vulnerable underbelly.

Is Russia selling arms to Azerbaijan because it is unhappy that Armenia has cordial relations with the U.S., European Union, and NATO? Probably not. Russia has always found less drastic ways to express its displeasure, such as increasing its natural gas prices.

But Armenians need not worry, says Russia, because it sells defensive weapons to Yerevan, reportedly at reduced prices, which neutralize the offensive ones that Baku buys.

Though Armenians currently hold the military advantage in Artsakh, can defensive weapons really match Azerbaijan’s offensive ones? And can Armenia, whose economy is only 13-20 percent of Azerbaijan’s, afford them? Yerevan may be paying not in cash but rather in factories, infrastructure, real estate, minerals, and debt. That increases Russian’s already considerable control over Armenia. And notice that Russia profits from selling weapons to both sides.

 

Russian betrayals

Russia does not, of course, want Azerbaijan (or Turkey) to overrun Armenia. That would create a pan-Turkic corridor from Turkey to Azerbaijan. The U.S. and NATO would use it to dominate the Caucasus, Caspian Sea, and probably Turkic Central Asia.

Artsakh is a different matter. It has no military agreements with Russia. Indeed, Moscow might not care if Azerbaijan overran Artsakh since that, by itself, would not create a pan-Turkic corridor.

Russia might even want a new Artsakh war if it crippled Azerbaijan’s energy infrastructure and destroyed its gas and oil pipelines that lie just north of Artsakh’s borders. Or, depending on what Baku gives Moscow in return, Russia could even help Azerbaijan defeat Artsakh.

After all, post-World War I, Soviet Russia gave Artsakh and Nakhichevan to Azerbaijan, handed Armenian territory to Turkey, and delivered weapons to Turkish forces under Kemal Ataturk.

Turkey later turned against Russia and eventually joined NATO, while Azeris remained hostile to Moscow. Azeris and Turks outsmarted the Russians.

Nevertheless, arms sales to Azerbaijan and Moscow’s massive trade and natural gas deals with Turkey remind Armenians of past Russian betrayals.

 

Armenia and Artsakh’s security

To hedge against more Russian betrayals, and for economic, scientific, educational, and religious-cultural reasons, Armenia understandably maintains friendly relations with the U.S. and Europe.

Armenia cannot, however, look to the U.S. and NATO for military security. The latter regard Turkey as not only weightier than Armenia, but also as the horse on which to gallop into the Caucasus, Caspian, and beyond. Therefore, Armenia allies itself with Russia. Without Armenia, of course, Russia will lose the Caucasus and much more to NATO.

As Moscow aspires to someday be the leader of all Eurasian countries, it is attempting—in vain, undoubtedly—to lure Turkey and Azerbaijan away from a Western orientation. Failing that, Russia hopes such relations will produce short- to medium-term economic and political gains. For Russia’s own sake, it should examine its past pro-Turkic missteps.

Armenia and Russia will probably remain in a cycle of mutual need and suspicion for some time.

As Armenia and Artsakh face the future, therefore, deeper insight into Russian strategy and intentions is essential.

 

David Boyajian is a freelance Armenian-American journalist. Many of his articles are archived at Armeniapedia.org.

109 Comments

  1. Mr. Boyajian, There is something Armenians generally speaking have a hard time understanding and it’s called “realpolitik”. While Russia and Armenia are in a genuine strategic alliance, Russia is doing its best to also lure Baku into its orbit. Russian officials realize that if Moscow does not sell arms to Baku there are nations like US, Britain, Ukraine, Belarus, Pakistan, Turkey and Israel that would.

    With that said, does it really matter where the weaponry Azerbaijan uses are made? I don’t think so.

    Azeris have the petrodollars to purchase whatever they want. We Armenians don’t have the money for modern arms, we therefore are being given whatever arms we need by Russians. Can you say thank you? Armenia has a tiny military. By covering the length of Armenia’s border with Turkey, Russia is giving Armenia the ability to concentrate its meager resources on its more manageable border with Azerbaijan. Can you say thank you? The reality that somehow is escaping most Armenians today is this: Even in ideal circumstances, Armenia would NOT be able to defend its borders against Turks and Azeris without Russia.

    Moreover, there is another angle: By supplying arms to Baku, Moscow is making sure to keep Armenia dependent on Russia. As you have seen recently, Russia’s politicking abilities are second to none. Russians know well that Armenians are easily bought. Russians know well that Armenia is saturated by Western mercenaries. Russians also know well that Armenia is allied to Russia today primarily because of the “Karabakh clan” in Yerevan. Finally, by assisting both sides of the conflict, Moscow manages to “manage” the situation on the ground and maintain the prevailing status quo. I don’t have to tell you that the status-quo in Artsakh is ONLY in our interests.

    At the end of the day, there is no trust or friendships in politics. At the end of the day, arms supply to Baku or not, Armenia lives as a result of the Russian factor in the south Caucasus. No Russia in Armenia = no Armenia in the south Caucasus. So, instead of wasting time spreading Russophobia in Armenian cyberspace, why don’t you get together with your Dashnak friends and lobby Armenian interests with Russian officials for a change.

    PS: Historically, not a single square inch of Armenian territory has EVER been given to Turks by Russians. The Western funded, Jewish led Bolshevik government in Moscow during the 1920s did NOT represent Russian interests for they where the ones that destroyed the Russian Empire. Blaming Russians for the evils of Bolshevism is like blaming the murder victim for the actions of the murderer. All indicators are that Russia will support Armenian claims over Artsakh. This is because Russian realize that Artsakh is essentially a sledgehammer hanging over the region’s Turks. In my opinion, the only long-term risk regarding Artsakh has to do with liberated territories east of Artsakh proper. In a final peace settlement, Moscow may force Armenia to return some of the territories in question. But Artsakh proper and western territories of Karvachar and Berdzor will remain Armenian.

    • Harutik, You disappoint me. Bolsheviks did not come from outer space, they were part and parcel of the Russian population. Their leaders were endorsed by the population of that time otherwise how would it survive for 70 odd years ? It is an insult to the people who believed in the Bolshevik ideology which consisted of Russians,Ukrainians, and even Armenians. After all, leaders represent the collective will of the population and are a reflection of the society by and large.

      To assign Bolshevism to Zionism and other conspiracies is an insult to intelligence. Societies change, their perspectives change which resulted in the downfall of Bolshevism just like an other “ism” it represented an ideology, which reflected the collective will of the people at that time

    • Mir Ali,

      You disappoint yourself, while your posts represent an insult to intelligence for all knowledgeable commenters and readers of the AW.

      Bolsheviks were not “part and parcel of the Russian population”. For one simple reason: almost ALL in their highest echelons were not ethnic Russians. Their leaders were endorsed only by a large fraction of the Russian population, while the other fraction (lesser but of stately proportions) endorsed the White movement. While the Bolsheviks were initially endorsed because of their promises (land to the peasants, factories to the workers, and other bull****), this large fragment of the population very soon lost faith in them, because none of their promises materialized.

      How would the USSR survive for 70 years? Don’t you know that this state formation was a totalitarian and repressive empire?

      Bolshevik ideology never “consisted of Russians, Ukrainians, and even Armenians”. The ideology was developed by Lenin (Blank) and his other Jewish comrades.

      Leaders represent the collective will of the population and are a reflection of the society under peaceful, democratic, and non-violent circumstances, not as a result of armed takeovers or in the course of repressive regimes. You don’t really mean that voting “in favor” essentially at gunpoint “represents the collective will of the population”, do you?

      And for your further education, neither Bolshevism nor Zionism were “conspiracies”. Each ideology’s goals and political programs were openly laid-out, even a founding congress in the case of Zionism. Therefore, may your intellect stay uninsulted. If you’d read more into the subject you’d find out that never was Bolshevism the reflection of the “collective will” of the people with Lenin having tremendous disbelief in a possibility of a revolution in Russia, while the Russian people were unpleasantly surprised hearing the news of the October 1917 “revolution”.

      Chill.

    • @ John, I think you have totally misunderstood me. Whether you like it or not,Socialism did present the world with a powerful ideology. ” Equal sharing of wealth” ” Industry owned by the workers” and ” equal distribution of food grain among the peasant class” resonated among the millions of workers and peasants not only in Russia but across the world and brought much needed succor to the millions of peasants and workers who had been exploited by the landlords and industrialists for millennia. When Chairman Mao announced the Chinese socialist revolution, more than half of the landmass of the world was under the influence of socialism in its heyday ringing alarm bells in the capitals across the world.There is a famous remark of Khrushchev to president Nixon which you should read. India had just got its freedom, its first prime minister Jawahar Lal Nehru was inclined towards the soviets and set up India as a socialist country which it is still partly. Two states in India still have communist governments in West Bengal and in Kerala. Bollywood India’s film Industry churned out socialist themed movies which were a hit and some of them still are in Russia and the middle east. USA was so alarmed at all this that they started distributing millions of copies of free Quran, Bible, Bhagwad Geeta to bring religion to stop the onslaught of socialism. My dad collected a copy of the Quran and a copy of the Bhagwad Geeta he was given by the americans I still have a copy given by the americans given to my dad.

      I am not going to debate how “tyrannical” the “regime” used to be or how oppressive it was. Are you suggesting that the chinese socialist party with their multi million party memberships are all coerced ? There are still millions of chinese who with or without the “tyranny” still believe in the socialist agenda. They have millions of socialist members in India in West Bengal and Kerala who are not . But to equate socialism to some “hidden” agenda with “zionist”conspiracy and a shadowy past is indeed an insult to the intelligence to the millions of socialists which included Russians, Chinese, Indian, also Armenian as there were Armenian members in their politburo.

      I rest my case…. peace and chill…

  2. For the record, US and British governments train Azeri snipers (yes, those who have killed dozens of Armenian soldiers) and Israel and Turkey have provided Baku with a wide array of military training and billions in sophisticated arms. Read the following articles –

    American military contractors MPRI Inc is training Azeri marksmen: http://www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com/contract_detail.asp?contract_id=81

    US Naval Special Ops Demos Training in Azerbaijan: http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=26294

    The Sunday Times: British special forces carried out secret trainings in Azerbaijan: http://www.panorama.am/en/society/2013/10/21/sunday-times/

    Azerbaijan Makes Massive Israeli Weapons: http://www.eurasianet.org/node/65053

    Is a US-Financed Azeri Satellite A Threat to Armenia’s Security?: http://asbarez.com/94756/is-a-us-financed-azeri-satellite-a-threat-to-armenia%E2%80%99s-security/

    Turkish Jets to Deliver American Nuclear Warheads: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkey-given-possession-of-nuclear-warheads-report-says.aspx?pageID=238&nID=8220&NewsCatID=33

    Russian expert: Armenia should be interested in Russian-Azeri arms deals: http://www.arminfo.am/index.cfm?objectid=DC40C210-47E2-11E4-980E0EB7C0D21663

  3. Politics is prostitution and major power are major prostitutes. In international politics, there are no friends, there are interests. We Armenians have for a very long time put our hopes on the “Christian West” which does not exist, many hopes were put on the Russians (Keri/Uncle). Even way before WWI, Russians had plans for an Armenia without Armenians. We should be prepared and prepare a new generation of politicians who are far sighted and take decisions far from sentiments and feelings.

    • Asbed,
      This is the way every smart Armenian should think. It is time for us to learn from our sad, past history, and rely on our own power and wisdom! No East and no West, but unity!

    • Russians never had official plans for an Armenia without Armenians. You take a single phrase of an Armenophobe Viceroy of Transcaucasia Grigory Galitzine and attempt to present it as an official Russian policy. Well, then consider a phrase by a different Viceroy, Illarion Vorontsov-Dashkov: “It is impossible to give up the initiative of protecting the Armenians […]. It is necessary to act openly for the defense of the Armenians in Turkey”. Asbet, in which case the official Russian policy is demonstrated?

  4. Good analysis. Re: ‘Artsakh is a different matter. It has no military agreements with Russia. Indeed, Moscow might not care if Azerbaijan overran Artsakh since that, by itself, would not create a pan-Turkic corridor.’ I wonder what is the reason Armenia does not officially recognize Artsakh. If it does, then the military agreemnents with Russia will include Artsakh as well. Is that correct?

    • Yes why hasn’t Armenia officially recognized Artsakh? The irony is that Turkey officially recognized Republic of Armenia when the Soviet Union fell. But Artsakh where so many Armenians lost their lives, it’s not yet recognized? Isn’t that the end goal? Isn’t that goal uncompromizable?

      The issue is that Russia, like any major power would, sees this area as her area of influence. Azerbaijan and Turkey have more to offer Russia than Armenia, in terms of oil, gas, economic markets and energy transport routs. Armenia + Artsakh are a good chess piece to play against them. Yes, for us Armenia and Arsakh are about freedom and sovereignty, but Russia has bigger geopolitical interests and needs.

      And Russia has several strings on Armenia she can pull on: energy, ownership of infrastructure, weapons and military support to complement Armenia’s military. Armenia is not as sovereign as she should be.

      The current status quo in Artsakh is great for Russia because she can use it against Azerbaijan.

      And since Artsakh is not officially recognized by anyone, including Armenia, those lands are free to be sacrificed through Russia’s whims.

      Are we sure that Russia is pro-Armenia through and through?

  5. Great article, and quite timely. Indeed, Russia’s sale of heavy weaponry to Azerbaijan is one example of a long pattern of Russia stabbing Armenia in the back, whenever it suits its interests. It shows once again that Russia will do whatever benefits its interests, regardless of whether it harms Armenia.

    Some say that Armenia would not exist without Russia. This is in fact a lie pushed by Armenia’s regime and its stooges. Why do they do it? Because they need Russian support in order to maintain their hold on power. They (the regime) also need to use the politics of fear to distract the Armenian people from pursing what the people really need: democracy.

    In fact, it is quite likely that without Russia, Armenia would indeed exist. Except that its capital would be not Yerevan, but Van. The Ottoman Empire was going to collapse anyway. Russia’s opportunistic policies did not save Armenia. To the contrary, they cost us Western Armenia. When Russia “liberated” Eastern Armenia in 1828, Armenians never imagined that this was the end of it. Noone even thought that Yerevan, a small Muslim-populated town at the time, would be the capital of Armenia. Armenians did in fact want independence, but they imagined that the core of an independent Armenia would be the main portion of Armenia, i.e. Western Armenia. After all, in 1828, the modern territory of Eastern Armenia was mostly Muslim-populated (primarily due to Shah Abbas’ deportations). In Western Armenia, on the other hand, Armenians were still the largest ethnic group. Unfortunately, Armenians would soon start receiving nasty surprises from the northern “ally” in which they placed their full weight.

    For the next 100 years, Tsarist Russia repeatedly invaded Turkey. Naturally, Armenians viewed Russians as liberators and assisted them. Each time, however, Russian troops retreated, resulting in greater persecution, massacres, and depopulation of Western Armenia. Western Armenia gradually emptied of its Armenian population, culminating in the calamity of 1915. Meanwhile, throughout this time, Russians steadily liberated the Balkan nations, including Serbia, Bulgaria, and others. As usual, Russians acted as it suited their interests, regardless of what Armenians hoped and needed.

    In fact, one of the tragic aspects of the Genocide is that it happened mere miles from the Russian troops. As before, Russians advanced and retreated several times, each time resulting in more massacres of Armenians. Yet again Russians demonstrated that they will do whatever they wish, no matter what it cost Armenians.

    It’s remarkable that despite what Armenians expected after allying with Russia, since the 1828 conquest of Eastern Armenia, not a single square inch was added to Armenia (Kars was temporarily added, then given back). To the contrary, Armenia lost something very important – mount Ararat. Unlike now, for centuries Ararat was not wholly in Turkey: the border (between Turkey and Persia, and later between Turkey and Russia) went along the summits of Ararat (that is why Armenian writer Khachatur Abovyan could climb the mountain from the Russian side). However, it was given to Turkey in 1921 by Russia, along with its surrounding region of Surmalu, as well as Kars. Again, because it suited Russia’s interests at the time.

    This pattern continued further. In the fall of 1920, Russian troops waited at the border while Kemal was ravaging Armenia, just so Armenia would be desperate enough to beg for Russian domination. As I posted elsewhere, in 1988, during the Sumgait massacre, Russian troops waited for three days before moving in. In 1991, during Operation Ring, Russian and Azeri troops joined together to depopulated Armenian villages. In June of 1992, after the collapse of Soviet Union, Azerbaijan seized nearly half of NKR, with the help of Russian tanks driven by, yes, Russian soldiers. Officially, these were Russian mercenaries hired by the Azeris. More likely, Russia once again wanted to teach Armenia a lesson.

    Russia’s callous indifference after the tragic murder of an entire family in Gyumri was the latest stark example that Russia does not care what Armenians think and feel and merely does what it wants. The recent events following the Russian aggression in Ukraine show again how Russia sacrifices Armenia for its own needs. In the spring of 2014, Armenia was essentially forced to isolate itself from the international community by having to vote against a pro-Ukraine U.N. resolution (Armenia was one of 10 rogue states to do so). This was followed by several anti-Armenian articles in the Western media, as was expected. After being forced to join the Eurasian Union, Armenia also has suffered from the Russia’s economic crisis. This is especially tragic, as Armenia, being an oil-consumer, should have benefited from the oil slump.

    The pattern of the Russian behavior demonstrates one thing: Russia will do whatever Russia wants, whether it helps or hurts Armenia. What this means that for Armenia to exclusively rely on Russia is a recipe for yet another disaster. This is especially true after Putin the thug’s self-destructive aggression in Ukraine. As I predicted awhile ago, the always backward Russian dictatorship, with its economy the size of Italy, is no match for the West, which was able to send the Russian economy into a tailspin without firing a single bullet. Russia is a sinking ship, and by getting tied to Russia, Armenia will surely sink.

    This does not mean that Armenia should sever its alliance with Russia. What it does mean is that Armenia cannot rely solely on Russia. Armenia needs to become stronger so it can protect itself when Russia either collapses (yet again) or sides with Azerbaijan and Turkey (yet again). The only way for Armenia to become stronger and prosperous is to be a democracy, i.e. a country where Armenians will want to live, invest, work, and die.

    • There you go again քոչվորoğlu.
      Still desperately manufacturing make-believe fakestories to blame everybody else for the murders and massacres of Armenian civilians by your Turk and Turkbaijani kin from Uyguristan.

    • Avery the only ‘make believe’ is you. Do you doubt the Russian sales of billions of modern weapons to Armenian’s enemy Azerbaijan? DO you doubt that the Russians troops under Gorbachev waited days while Armenians were burned, raped, tortured etc in Sumgait and Baku? Even though Russia is basically the only real play that Armenian has at the moment, not for a second do I believe that Russian cares or is sincere for Armenia’s well being. Whether you want to admit it or not much Armenia’s grief over the years came directly from RUSSIA and the corrupt regimes over the years.

    • Joe,

      You mean Armenia’s grief for savagely murdered, mutilated, gang-raped, burned and buried alive people and the forced deportation of the rest came directly from Russia? Do please be more specific with the phrase “over the years”. Exactly what years brought much of Armenia’s grief directly from Russia? I only try to be unprejudiced. If you mean late 1980s-early 1990s murders of Armenians in Sumgait, Baku, and other Azeri cities, the crimes took place during the late Soviet period with Western sellout Gorby allowing, in essence, the murders. The troops, by the way, were Soviet, i.e. consisted of multiple nationalities. And, Joe, no one cares or is sincere for Armenia’s well-being, or any country’s well-being for that matter, less so jilting America or snobbish EU. It is that at this historical moment Russia provides for Armenia what no one else is willing or hardly ever be willing to provide. When back in 2008 America’s strategic ally Georgia was invaded, the Yankees didn’t move a finger to come to her rescue and the country lost two chunks of its territory–South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Keep this in mind…

  6. Dave, Mother Russia is not a registered charity, It’s not their fault that the Little Armenian Gangster has painted himself into a corner, nor are they obliged to provide a fig leaf to cover his humiliation. Russia has its own economic interests to cater.

    Russia- Ankara axis seems to be fast emerging with the Turkish stream, effectively handing over the gas spigot of EU to Turkey. There is also the 100% Russian financing of the first Nuclear Power plant at Akkuyu with a multi dimensional trade aspect. Turkey welcomes 5 million Russian tourists each year with trade volumes between the 2 countries expected to reach $100 billion by 2020. Russia considers Armenia as economically insignificant, with a lopsided power dynamic more representing a master / subordinate relationship.

    As they say there are no long term friends or enemies just economic interests.

    • {“ It’s not their fault that the Little Armenian Gangster has painted himself into a corner, nor are they obliged to provide a fig leaf to cover his humiliation. Russia has its own economic interests to cater.”}

      Türkoğlu Mir Ali: the only gangsters in the neighborhood are the two criminal, illegal, terrorist Turkic regimes, which were created by invadonomad barbaric Turkic tribes from Uyguristan on the lands of indigenous peoples, whom they ethnically cleansed and exterminated.

      {“ Russia- Ankara axis seems to be fast emerging with….”}

      President Putin pulled a fast one on the Neocons by co-opting one of their NATO members.
      Desperate Turks like you can keep on hallucinating about an alleged ‘Russia-Ankara axis’: having been rejected by EU for 50 years, so-called ‘proud’ Turks kept begging EU to be accepted, in vain, now they have no place to go.
      Russia will sell whatever it can to Turks to keep them dependent on Russia and compel Turkey to do her bidding if need be: the more this disloyal NATO member flirts with Russia, the more it will be distrusted by the West.
      Another NATO member, Hungary, was also recently co-opted.

      EU and Turkey have been trading for decades: yet EU still keeps Turks at arms length. Guess why.
      EU exported €80 billion worth to Turkey and imported €50 billion worth (2013).
      Do the math.
      In 2013, trade between Russia and Turkey was worth about $32 billion.
      Turkey exported $7 billion worth of goods to Russia, and Russia exported $25 billion worth to Turkey.
      Do the math.

      And that dream about an ‘axis’ is quite comical: Russia and Turkey have been mortal enemies for centuries.
      Russians and Turks have fought something like 17 bloody battles: Russians defeated Turks every single time.
      Russians know who and what Turks are: have known it for a very long time.
      Recently, Turkey made some noises about the alleged mistreatment of Crimean Tatars: Russian response was to clamp down some more.
      Turks got the message and shut their trap.
      Russia and Turkey cannot co-exist in the same space: it is one or the other. Matter vs. Anti-Matter.
      Russia will not let Turkey into its backyard – its vulnerable Southern underbelly – because that will be the end of Russia as we know it.
      Russians have not been fighting radical Islamists for decades to now invite Islamist Turkey to set up shop in Christian Russia’s backyard.
      Russians remember very well that Turks were arming and supporting Islamist Chechen terrorists during the Chechen wars.
      In fact, KGB/FSB has been ‘liquidating’ Chechen terrorist commanders living/hiding in Turkey.

      {“ Russia considers Armenia as economically insignificant…”}

      No kidding.
      Russia does not need Armenia because 3 million Armenians represent a vast, untapped consumer market.
      Russia needs Armenia, because where Armenia is and who the Armenian people are.
      To understand why Russia needs Armenia, go back a few years: in 1993, Russia which was barely alive, threatened WW3 (read nuclear war) if Turkish troops crossed the border into RoA (…as they were getting ready to do, to save their Turkic kin in Baku from the impending massive defeat).
      Russia was not ready to go to a nuclear war with NATO for economics.
      It is something else: if you do not understand what that something else is, you can keep dreaming about an imaginary ‘axis’.

    • @Avery, To begin with I am not a Turk… My forefathers are Iranian from the city of Shiraz who settled in India long back and now a British by nationality. So No, Thank you for your “TURK” title I am much happy being Iranian / Indian / British.

      Your Rancor with Turkey appears to be quite well established. But I will make a few dents to your discourse one by one. Believe me EU is a cesspool which the British hate it and are more than willing to come out as it has done no benefit to them whatsoever. so if the Turks can have all the privileges and benefits in lieu of partnering with the EU without the liability imposed by Brussels. why not use it to their advantage ? which is exactly they seem to be doing. The EU would not be around in the next 5-10 years anyway. So your entire edifice of EU membership and the “begging” falls down dismally. No?

      Next, Russia and Turkey are indeed forging an alliance much to your consternation. They are not interested in fighting past battles as they do not seem to have time dwelling in past glories, believe me. If they can look at economic empowerment by increasing trade then why not ? so 5 million tourists with an average $1000 spent you do the Math. Turkish contractors and ship building Industry are world renowned working in many parts of the world. Turkish GDP was $250 billion in 2002 which has more than tripled to $860 billion under Erdogan. Turkey plans to reach $1.6 trillion by 2020. They are planning to convert the whole of the Black sea coast to a water theme sport tourism area. whether you like it or not they have been supremely successful in becoming the 6th largest tourist destination in the world welcoming more than 42 million tourists in 2014, an average of $1000 per tourist you do the math ?
      Gangster Putin was in Ankara last year stressing the need to increase commerce between the two countries to $100 billion. I think they will achieve it. So your next edifice unfortunately comes tumbling down. No ?

      Now with regards to the “vast” opportunities presented by 3 million people to Russia. I would like to advise you that much of the energy, infrastructure, Industry is already owned by Russia. There is nothing left for it to own. other than the population which is witnessing a terminal decline. Even the Iranian Gas pipeline is owned by Russia (I am Iranian genetically BTW). With a TFR (Total Fertility Ratio) of 1.4 (you need a TFR to have a stable population)and a migration rate of more than 100,000 each year, it would appear you have lit the candle both ways ! Brilliant !. The prognosis for Armenia is not great I am afraid to say..You would have stayed if it were so good and not migrated to US? No ?

      To add a bit of salt.. I had gone with my family to Antalya for a lovely holiday really enjoyed the weather, in fact the place where we stayed was generous enough to give me his keys to come back anytime..so inadvertently I have contributed $4000 to the “genocidal” Turks.

    • Mir Ali,

      An estimated quarter of the population of Shiraz are Iranian Azeris, the descendants of Oghuz Turkic tribes. Might it be that your forefathers were Azeris, too? What I mean to say is that it is highly untypical for an Iranian (i.e. a noble Aryan Persian) to post Turkic-tilted comments in an Armenian forum.

  7. To all Russophobes,

    The problem with your kind (and I know your kind very well) is that you simply don’t know how to be critical in a “constructive” sense. [you are Armenian after all] All you and your kind do is spread Russophobia without ever putting things you talk about into a proper historical and geopolitical context. Your kind was until very recently very pro-West, pro-American. It had to take the Libya, Syria, Iraq, Ukraine you wake your kind up from your deep stupor. If God forbid Russopbobia EVER goes mainstream in Armenia, the country will simply disappear. If Russians somehow turn against Armenians, not even a million of your Dashnak “warriors” would be able to save Armenia. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to realize any of this, but you do have to have a clear mind. Sadly, most Armenians are too engulfed in their petty world and too distracted by their massive arrogance to see things clearly.

    Anyway, you people remind me of the cat that looked in the mirror and saw a lion. God forbid this delusional Cat (i.e. the Armenia that exists in your mind) goes out to play in the real world where hungry wolves roam. God forbid this Cat goes out into the world without the Bear watching after it. The Cat lives today because the Bear has driven the Wolves away from the area where the Cat lives. You people seriously need to stop your foolish “fedayee” nonsense. That fedayee stuff works only against backward peasants (like the Azeris in the early 1990s). The geopolitical circumstances of the region within which Armenia unfortunately finds itself in dictates that we Armenians will be subordinate to Russia. THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVES TO THIS. At least be happy that a neighboring superpower looks at Armenia as an asset and not a nuisance. So, instead of complaining like old women (which is what your kind does best), figure out a way to better lobby Armenian matters in Moscow. In other words, take advantage of the situation Russia’s alliance with Armenia is providing us.

    PS: None of you have been able to name one thing that Russians, as a nation, have done against Armenia. Once more, for the hard of hearing: Bolshevism was more destructive to Russia than to Armenia. Bolshevism through the 1920s was almost exclusively a none-Russian political system. For over two hundred years Armenia has lived because of Russia. Had Russia not come down to the south Caucasus in the early 19th century – and stayed – all of us would still be making a living herding goats or making donkey saddles somewhere in eastern Turkey or northern Iran. Wake up.

    • Dude, will you stop copy-pasting from theriseofrussia.blogspot.com ? We get it: you love Putin. But if you cannot compose your own posts, just post the link to your beloved anti-Armenian pro-Russian blog, and those of us who are interested will check it out.

      For the rest of the readers, here is a sample of the toxic anti-Armenian drivel from the pro-Russian blog our guest was copying from:

      “Armenian genetic/cultural traits, as it exists today after one thousand years of damage … օտարամոլ, jealous, clannish, insecure, egotistical, suspicious, never satisfied, emotional, possessive, loud, nonconforming, uncompromising, overly ambitious, stubborn, short-tempered, nervous, individualistic, politically naive, pessimistic, impatient, materialistic, arrogant, self-righteous, etc… We have gone from being a nation of warriors to being a nation of petty merchants, and as petty merchants we see the world today.”

      http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/p/as-presidential-election-in-armenia.html

    • Little Harut,
      Sometimes I wonder, if you can put your heart toward Armenia, rather than your beloved Russia!

  8. To all Russophiles

    the problem with your kind is that you think Armenia with the least 2500 years old statehood(either independent, or being part of rising empires of the given times has been always recognized without exception as a state or at the lowest form as a national region) would not exist without big brat Russians, ofcourse you can’t change history and fight destiny but I strongly believe if imperial Russian after defeating Ottomans in Crimea and winning over the rest of ex-European Ottoman territories north and north-west of Black sea didn’t shift her attention toward Caucaus and Persia and dream of reaching warm seas(and this is not because of likes of Israel Ori’s letter or Abovian and Nalbandian’s writings!) we as a state would have survived as usual and Armenia would have been streching from Mush to Kars and lakes Van to Sevan, having far more population than today because Armenian Genocide would have never been happened just like last 3-4 centuries before 19th century that we have been living on our ancestral lands under Ottoman and Persian rules being under pressure but never exterminated or deported from our lands.

    now as you mentioned rightly Armenian lion has turn into a cat, so best course for us and new Armenia is like every good domestic cat to molest with everybody living around you and avoid over-depending on one regional power and try to have good relation with East from China to west to United States and muslem states who live all around us

    • [I strongly believe if imperial Russia after defeating Ottomans in Crimea and winning over the rest of ex-European Ottoman territories north and north-west of Black sea didn’t shift her attention toward Caucasus and Persia and dream of reaching warm seas we as a state would have survived as usual and Armenia would have been stretching from Mush to Kars and lakes Van to Sevan, having far more population than today because Armenian Genocide would have never happened just like last 3-4 centuries before 19th century that we have been living on our ancestral lands under Ottoman and Persian rules being under pressure but never exterminated or deported from our lands.]

      The problem with your kind, Parsik, is manifold.

      One is that territories north and north-west of Black Sea were never originally Ottoman, as were no other lands on which Turks now reside. These territories–the Crimea and the surrounding areas–belonged to Genoa. Turks wrested them from the Genoese in the 15th century AD.

      Second, Russia didn’t suddenly “shift” her attention after the Crimean War toward Caucasus and Persia. Russia had these aspirations long before the war and its aftermath, during the reign of Peter the Great and Catherine the Great, in the 17th and 18th centuries, respectively.

      Third, there was no state of Armenia “stretching from Mush to Kars and lakes Van to Sevan” after the Crimean War so we would “as usual” survive. The last Armenian state formation ended with the Kingdom of Cilicia in the early 15th century.

      Fourth, for 3-4-centuries before the 19th century we’ve been living on our ancestral lands as second-class oppressed and colonized subjects under the rule of loathed Turks. Should we extend our heartfelt thanks to the Turks for the oppression but not extermination during those centuries? And if the Turks were so generous, thoughtful, considerate colonizers, what happened in the 19th century with those barbarian Hamidian massacres of innocent population? Russia certainly wasn’t around; and there was no WWI in which Turkey, by the way, was first to bombard Russian Black Sea installations.

      Fifth, to link Russia’s defeat of Ottomans in the Crimean War in 1853-1856 and her all-time dream of reaching warm seas with the Hamidian massacres of 1894-1896 and the Genocide of Armenians in 1915-1923 is not only foolish, but lacks rudimentary judgment. In 1917, Russian Empire ceased to exist and Russia was in shambles, yet the genocide continued with every little pocket of Armenians that the Turks had found being destroyed, most vivid example being the burning of the Armenian quarters of Smyrna in 1922.

      [Best course for us and new Armenia is […] to have good relations with East from China to west to United States and Muslim states who live all around us].

      Here, too, there is a problem with your kind, Parsik. Sounds acceptable, but exactly which “Muslim states” did you have in mind? Unrepentant sinner Turkey and her lookalike AzerBEYjan? While Armenians are highly respected in the Arab nations and Iran, is it with these particular genocidal two Turkic states you invite us to have good relations with? No kidding?

  9. There is nothing wrong with copy-pasting information if you fully agree with it. If something you agree with has already been articulated, why waste time writing the same stuff? Anyway, it’s good to know that even guys like you read the Heralding the Rise of Russia blog. I guess there is still hope…

    • The Rise of Russia blog is nationlistic nonsense. And if you’re if you’re going to copy-and-paste, then you should attribute it, instead of passing it off as your own words.

    • [Random: “The Rise of Russia blog is nationlistic nonsense”]

      “Heralding the Rise of Russia” is not just a nationalistic nonsense. It’s much worse. It’s self-hating nationalist nonsense of the vilest Anti-Armenian kind. As I posted above, its message is “we are so so bad, we need Russians to rule us.” It’s not nationalism, it’s natiomasochism.

    • I also read Rise of Russia I think its the finest blog I have seen about Eurasian geopolitics and Russo-Armenian relations. I also think the blog master is an outstanding Armenian.

      Random Armenian: I suggest you read Harutik’s first two comments on this page.

  10. Stop acting like stupid Ukrainians with all this anti-Russian fear mongering. Russian arms sales to Azerbaijan is not a threat to Armenia. Russia is not going to abandon Armenia or Artsakh to Turks or to anyone. So stop the smut peddling.

    • An Azeri soldier shot down an Artsakh helicopter using Russian an anti-aircraft missile. The threat has already been put to use. Russian arms sales to Azerbaijan is a threat. It enables and emboldens the Azeri leadership to start a war.

      On top of that Russia wants to have influence over Azerbaijan as it does with the other post-soviet states. But given the oil and gas reserves, Azerbaijan can resist Russia better than Armenia and could demand something in return at the expense of Armenia. That’s also a threat to Armenia.

    • No one argues that Russia pursues her own geopolitical, geoeconomic, and geostrategic goals in the South Caucasus and other areas, which the Kremilin considers important for Russia’s national interests. What do we expect from such an enormous and powerful country? Doesn’t the U.S. behave in a similar way and well beyond reasonable and the reach of reason (Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.)? Russia is spatially extended. At one time her goals may be compatible to Armenia’s interests; while at other time her goals (for example, foreign military sales) may run counter to Armenia’s interests. Again, what do you expect? That Moscow limits her foreign policy activities with Armenia only? Russia is bound by the CSTO and bilateral treaties with Armenia. Armenia became the newest member-state of Russia-dominated EEU. What more guarantees are needed? Armenia’s political and economic heft, as well as the country’s vulnerable geographic location, doesn’t allow for a greater maneuverability in relations with Russia. Therefore, Armenia’s best bid is to remain in the wake of Russia’s foreign policy. And I don’t think that the use of a Russian anti-aircraft missile or Russian arms sales to Azerbaijan enables and emboldens the Azeri leadership to start a war. Why? Because Azerbaijan knows too well that Armenia has in her arsenal weapons capable of destroying Baku in a matter of minutes. If Azerbaijan will decide to start a war, it will do it with Russian armaments or with non-Russian armaments. At least, with Russian weapons Moscow would know what rivet in a missile launcher she can crap up so the missile flies back on Baku.

    • To educate yourself to the realpolitik world we live in I suggest you read Harutik’s first two comments on this page.

    • john,

      Tell that to the Russophiles that believe Russia is a savior and a Christian Orthodox brother nation that has our best interests at heart. Some people here have blind faith in Russia. But Russia as a major power will do things for her benefit. And with Putin’s adventurism, Armenia has no choice but to sail the rough sees with her.

      “At least, with Russian weapons Moscow would know what rivet in a missile launcher she can crap up so the missile flies back on Baku.”

      Are you sure that that’s technically possible? Does Russia have backdoors into the software of these systems allowing her to control them remotely?

  11. Sure you are a Turk: this sentence that you wrote, {“ It’s not their fault that the Little Armenian Gangster has painted himself into a corner, nor are they obliged to provide a fig leaf to cover his humiliation.”}, marks you is a hateful Anti-Armenian Türkoğlu, Mir Ali.
    “Little Armenian Gangster” ?
    Like I wrote before, the only gangsters in the region are the two criminal Turkic states.
    And I don’t care where you were born or where you live now.
    Your Turkophile hatred for Armenians is being advertised in that one sentence.
    You may have been born in Iran, probably a member of 2% Turkmen and Turkic tribes inhabit Iran.
    Or you may have been thoroughly Turkified.
    The hatred for Armenians exhibited by you is uncharacteristic of a Persian/Iranian: there is no such hatred between our peoples.

    {“ Now with regards to the “vast” opportunities presented by 3 million people to Russia”}
    Obviously your Anti-Armenian blinders did not allow you to understand what I wrote: go and read the entire passage again.
    It is not the economy. It’s something else.

    {“..You would have stayed if it were so good and not migrated to US? No ?”}
    So is that why you are living in UK ? Yes ?
    Why don’t you go and live with your Turkic kin ?
    If Turkey is so great you would have left UK and migrated to Türkiye, No ?

    And I know all about Armenia and its statistics: you are repeating the same dated nonsense as everybody else from 20 years ago.

    And the prognosis for both the criminal gangster Turkic states is not great: Turkabaijan is running out of oil, and its oppressed minorities are stirring.
    Turkey: desperate Erdogan is running around urging Turk women to have more children, because he knows what’s coming. Kurds will be majority around 2035/30240. Turkey is a cesspool of ethnic and religious cauldron: Kurd vs. Turk; AKP Islamists vs Kemalists; Alevi vs. Sunni.
    Lots of fun.

    Finally, here is another bit of evidence you provided which proves you are an Anti-Armenian denialist Türkoğlu: {“ To add a bit of salt.. so inadvertently I have contributed $4000 to the “genocidal” Turks.”}.
    “genocidal” (in quotes) ?

    That’s all for now.
    I have another more important post to finish.
    I am sure we will meet again soon @AW, Türkoğlu Mir Ali.

  12. Mr Boyajian, I’m not sure if–from semantic, legal and historical perspectives– it is correct to say that “post-World War I, Soviet Russia […] handed Armenian territory to Turkey”. There was no “Soviet” Russia per se, to begin with, when Kars was handed to Turkey according to the 1918 Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. Soviet Union was established only in 1922. Bolshevik Russia, yes. Secondly, while Kars was, without doubt, a historical Armenian territory, technically, at the moment of ceding it to the Turks, it was a former Russian oblast. Therefore, legally (while it has a tremendous sensitive impact for the Armenians) Russia ceded a chunk of her territory. And Kars was not the only territory Russia had ceded under the Treaty. Baltic states were ceded, too, and Ukraine was recognized as a nation independent from Russia. Just an observation…

    • “Russia ceded a chunk of her territory”

      Only based on legal and administrative realities, not as native Russian territory.

  13. The pro-Russian team here likes to trumpet the notion that “Soviet Russia was not real Russia, so we can’t blame Russia for what they did.” Needless to say, it’s a false notion, and it misses the point.

    First, the idea that “Bolsheviks were not Russians” is an age-old conspiracist nonsense that has been long debunked. The vast majority of Bolsheviks, including their elite, were Russians.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

    Second, from an Armenian point of view, it makes absolutely no difference whether Russia was ruled by “true” Russians or not, whatever that means. What matters for Armenians is that we cannot rely on Russia on an exclusive, long-term basis. What history has proven to Armenians is that Russia is an unstable country that may fall one day, rise another day, go one way today, move another way tomorrow, and each time Armenians pay a huge price. Russia will do whatever Russia wants at the moment, even if it is against the interests of Armenia.

    And how can we be sure that “true Russians” (again, whatever that means) will rule Russia tomorrow? How do we know that they rule it today? Is Putin the thug acting in Russia’s interests? According to many Russians who truly care for their country, he is doing exactly the opposite: he is moving Russia to ruin. And for those who like to focus on ethnicities (a useless exercise when it comes to state interests), Putin’s girlfriend is a Tatar woman:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alina_Kabaeva

    The “assets” of the head of our “ally” are literally in the hands of a Tatar woman.

    What all of this means is that we cannot solely rely on Russia and hope Russia will not throw Armenia to the wolf’s mouth again. It has many times and it will again. What this further means is that Armenia needs to become stronger so it is ready for that moment. The way to do it is not to be a corrupt dependency of Russia: this will only lead to yet another demise of Armenia. The way to do it is for Armenia to become a democracy, so Armenians will want to live there, invest there, and die there.

    • Okay, let’s discredit once and for all the inimitable one who, in surge of sheer dilettantism and absurdity, refers us to the most unreliable source of information, Wikipedia, in an attempt to debunk a historical fact as “an age-old conspiracist nonsense”.

      Below is the composition of the first Bolshevik government after the so-called “Russian revolution” of October 1917:

      1. Chairman of the Council of Peoples’ Commissars (prime-minister) – Ulyanov (Lenin). Constituted himself Russian, but was matrilineal Jew (Blank).
      2. Commissar of Foreign Affairs – Chicherin. Constituted himself Russian, but was matrilineal Jew.
      3. Commissar of Nationalities – Dzhugashvili (Stalin). Georgian.
      4. Head of Higher Economic Council – Lourie (Larin). Jew.
      5. Commissar of Food Supply – Schlikhter. Jew.
      6. Commissar of Agriculture – Protian. Armenian.
      7. Commissar of State Control – Lander. Jew.
      8. Commissar of Army and Navy – Bronstein (Trotsky). Jew.
      9. Commissar of State Lands – Kaufmann. Jew.
      10. Commissar of Public Works – Schmidt. Jew.
      11. Commissar of Social Relief – Lilina (Knigissen). Jew.
      12. Commissar of Public Education – Lunacharsky. Constituted himself Russian, but in reality was a convert to Russian Orthodoxy from Judaism.
      13. Commissar of Religions – Spitzberg. Jew.
      14. Commissar of the Interior – Apfelbaum (Zinoviev). Jew.
      15. Commissar of Public Hygiene – Anvelt. Jew.
      16. Commissar of Finance – Gukovsky. Jew.
      17. Commissar of Press – Cohen (Volodarsky). Jew.
      18. Commissar of Elections – Uritsky. Jew.
      19. Commissar of Justice – Shteinberg. Jew.
      20. Commissar of Refugees Affairs – Fenigstein. Jew.
      21. First Aide to Commissar of Refugees Affairs – Ravich. Jew.
      22. Second Aide to Commissar of Refugees Affairs – Zaslavsky. Jew.

      In all, out of 22 members of the first Bolshevik government 17 were Jews, 3 considered themselves Russians (but in reality were either half-Jews or Jewish converts), 1 Georgian, and 1 Armenian.

      I rest my case…

    • I would agree that, historically, Russia is an uneven country; her history is full of ups and downs, swings and roundabouts. But, then, isn’t instability typical–in one form or another and to one extent or another–to most of other countries? What, there were no regime changes, unrests, revolutions and civil wars in Germany, France, Britain, etc.? An unassuming macro-historic analysis would tell us that given Russia’s spatially extended territory and borders, the multinational and multiconfessional composition of her population, incessant pretensions to her natural resources and threats to her national security and to areas of her vital interest from the outside, Russia just couldn’t be expected to act in a different way.

      However, it is so dilettante and misleading to say that each time Russia changes her course Armenians “pay a huge price”. As if it were the Russians who centrally planned and executed the Hamidian massacres of the Armenians in 1894-1896, or the Adana massacres of the Armenians in 1909, or the genocide of the Armenians in 1915, or the military advance into the Armenian Republic by the Kemalist troops in 1920, or the burning of the Armenian quarters of Smyrna by Kemalist forces in 1922.

      And exactly what is meant by “Russia will do whatever Russia wants at the moment”?! Isn’t this true with any country? Germans did whatever Germany wanted at the moment when Armenians were massacred by the Turks just a few miles away from the Berlin-Baghdad Railway. French did whatever France wanted at the moment when they sneakily left Marash in Cilicia without alerting the citizens that they were leaving town, exposing thousands of Armenians to murderous Turks. The British, notorious hypocrites acting under a slogan “no permanent allies, no permanent enemies, but only permanent interests”, did whatever Britain wanted at the moment, when they had declared that they couldn’t get their ships over the Taurus mountains to help the Armenians who were being savagely mass murdered by Abdulhamid.

      At this juncture of Armenia’s history there is no other alternative for Armenia but to remain in the wake of Russia’s defense, national security and foreign policy. Armenia, surrounded by two genocidal Turkic stats, lacks energy resources and arms production capability. No other country but Russia showed willingness to provide these to Armenia. Yes, even if for Russia’s own interests.

    • Dear john, my favorite opponent (at least the most scholarly, unlike the other snore-inducing ones). It’s good to see you obsessively trying to debate with my posts. Fortunately, as always, you only debunk yourself.

      In Soviet Russia, the “Russian government” (i.e. the cabinet of ministers) was not the top ruling body. The country was ruled by the Communist party, and its highest body (the Politburo) was the one that set the policies. And these were mostly comprised of ethnic Russians (and if for some reason you don’t accept Wikipedia, then you don’t belong to an online discussion; in fact, you don’t belong to any public discussion in the 21st century):

      “On the eve of the February Revolution, in 1917, the Bolshevik party had about 23,000 members, of whom 364 were known to be ethnic Jews. … According to the 1922 party census, there were 19,564 Jewish Bolsheviks, comprising 5.21% of the total. Jews made up 7.1% of members who had joined before October 1917. … Among members of the Central Executive Committee of the Congress of Soviets in 1929, there were 402 ethnic Russians, 95 Ukrainians, 55 Jews, 26 Latvians, 13 Poles, and 12 Germans – Jewish representation had declined from 60 members in 1927. With regards to Jewish representation in the ruling Politburo, it waned very rapidly starting in 1918. It began with the assassination of Moisei Uritsky, the most radical member of the Politburo, in August 1918. … Three years later in 1922, Jewish members in the Central Committee, the Politburo’s new name, had shrunk to a minority of three: Trotsky, Zinoviev and Kamenev. Eventually they were all physically eliminated by Joseph Stalin”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism

      Beyond that, you miss the larger point. If you want to dissect which Russians had some Jewish or Tatar or other ancestor, then a large portion of Russians would qualify as not-fully-Russian. Russians spent centuries under Tatar rule, their princes and boyars freely intermarried and intermated with Tatars. How, do we know Putin is not Tatar or Jew through some ancestor? We know that his girlfriend is actually Tatar. And by the way, it’s funny how you point out that his girlfriend is only half-Tatar, but those who had some Jewish ancestor are Jews, period.

      The point is, focusing on the ancestries of a country’s rulers is useless. These individuals were citizens of Russia regardless of their ancestry, and they did what they did because Tsarist Russia was a rotten country (as it is today), and they believed they were making it a better place.

      And when you argue that “Soviet Russia was not real Russia,” you are shooting yourself (or the Armenian cause) in the foot. After all, many of the Young Turks were not pure Turks either. So, under your logic, Turkey should not be responsible. And by the way, Abdul Hamid was half Armenian. Are you saying that Turks are not responsible for the Hamidian massacres either?

      The point is that rulers, whether Putin or Stalin, act either in the interests of their country or in the interests of their power, not based on their ancestry. And they certainly do not act in the interests of Armenia. Which is why Armenia needs to be ready for the day when Russia’s (or its rulers’) interests will not be consistent with its interests. Because we know that it has happened over and over, and we know how it ends.

    • I’m debating with balderdash and malicious distortion of facts, not anyone in particular, least of all with “dear” disinfo agents like you.

      Let’s once again discredit the load of horse feathers that was produced by our inimitable one, for whom Wikipedia, a dubious online publication which can be unrestrictedly edited or amended by anyone who feels like it, appears to be more credible than primary and secondary scholarly sources. This time the counterargument goes that in Bolshevik Russia the cabinet of ministers was not the top ruling body; the Bolshevik party’s Central Committee and its Politburo were. Indeed, these organs were top ruling political bodies, but the cabinet of ministers, which we proved consisted of the prevailing majority of non-Russians, nonetheless, functioned as the highest executive body and the government. Anyway, let’s turn to the composition of the first Central Executive Committee and its Politburo of the Bolshevik party.

      Composition of the first central executive committee of the Bolshevik party after the so-called “Russian revolution” of 1917:

      1. Sverdlov (chairman). Jew
      2. Avanesov (secretary). Armenian
      3. Bruno. Latvian
      4. Breslau. Latvian
      5. Babchinski. Jew
      6. Bukharin. Russian
      7. Weinberg. Jew
      8. Gailiss. Jew
      9. Ganzberg (or Ganzburg). Jew
      10. Danichevski. Jew
      11. Starck. German
      12. Sachs. Jew
      13. Scheinmann. Jew
      14. Erdling. Jew
      15. Landauer. Jew
      16. Linder. Jew
      17. Wolach. Czech
      18. Dimanstein. Jew
      19. Enukidze. Georgian
      20. Ermann. Jew
      21. Ioffe. Jew
      22. Karkhline. Jew
      23. Knigissen. Jew
      24. Rosenfeld (Kamenev). Jew
      25. Apfelbaum (Zinoviev). Jew
      26. Krylenko. Russian
      27. Krassikov. Jew
      28. Kaprik. Jew
      29. Kaoul. Latvian
      30. Ulyanov (Lenin). Russian (matrilineal Jew)
      31. Latsis. Jew
      32. Lander. Jew
      33. Lunacharsky. Russian (matrilineal Jew)
      34. Peterson. Latvian
      35. Peters. Latvian
      36. Roudzoutas. Jew
      37. Rosine. Jew
      38. Smidovitch. Jew
      39. Stoutchka. Latvian
      40. Nakhamkes (Steklov). Jew
      41. Sosnovski. Jew
      42. Skrytnik. Jew
      43. Bronstein (Trotsky). Jew
      44. Teodorovitch. Jew
      45. Terian. Armenian
      46. Uritsky. Jew
      47. Telechkine. Russian
      48. Feldmann. Jew
      49. Fromkin. Jew
      50. Souriupa. Ukrainian
      51. Tchavtchavadze. Georgian
      52. Scheikmann. Jew
      53. Rosental. Jew
      54. Achkinazi. Imeretian
      55. Karakhane. Karaim (Karaite)
      56. Rose. Jew
      57. Sobelson (Radek). Jew
      58. Schlichter. Jew
      59. Schikolini. Jew
      60. Chklianski. Jew
      61. Levine (Pravdin). Jew

      Thus, out of 61 members of the central committee, 5 were Russians (of whom two–Lenin and Lunacharsky–were matrilineal Jews), 6 were Latvians, 1 was a German, 2 were Armenians, 1 was a Czech, 1 was an Imeretian, 2 were Georgians, 1 was a Karaim, 1 was a Ukrainian, and 41 were Jews.

      Composition of the first Politburo (formed in October 1917) of the central executive committee of the Bolshevik party:

      1. Lenin. Constituted himself Russian. Matrilineal Jew
      2. Rosenfeld (Kamenev). Jew
      3. Apfelbaum (Zinoviev). Jew
      4. Sokolnikov (Brilliant). Jew
      5. Bronstein (Trotsky). Jew
      6. Dzhugashvili (Stalin). Georgian
      7. Bubnov. Russian

      Thus, out of 7 members of the Politburo, 1 was a Russian, 1 was a Georgian, 1 was a matrilineal Jew constituting himself Russian, and 4 were Jews.

      I rest my case…

      No, I don’t wish to dissect which Russians had Jewish or other ancestry. I’m presenting bare facts about ethnic composition of the top governing bodies of Bolshevik Russia. If this debate continues, even stronger evidence is behind, e.g. composition of the peoples’ Soviets (legislative body), the commissariats (ministries), the Cheka (state security agency) and much more.

      If the fact that Putin’s girlfriend is only half-Tatar caused a lot of fun, please have even greater fun learning that according to Rabbinic laws, a child born to a Jewish mother is considered a Jew.

      I never made a point that “Soviet Russia was not real Russia”. I said that neither Bolsheviks nor their ideology were part and parcel of the Russian people.

      Many of the Young Turks in their top ruling body–and later Mustafa Kemal himself–were non-Turks, Dönmehs, and Freemasons. However, under my logic, Turks are responsible, because it were the masses of ethnic Turks–army commanders, gendarmes, kaymakams, village heads, the Chete, teskilat-i-mahsusa, soldiers, the police, multitudes of ordinary citizens and villagers–who physically murdered, massacred, mutilated, tortured, gangraped, looted, deported, burned and buried Armenians alive. And it is the masses of ethnic Turks and their government that to this day deny the crime of their predecessors.

      Abdul Hamid, as an individual, was born to an Armenian mother and, as supreme Turkish ruler of the Ottoman Empire, was solely responsible for the massacres of the Armenians. If Abdul Hamid were a revolutionary and would gang up with likeminded half- or full-blood Armenians, seize power, kill the Sultan, spread Marxist ideology whose concept of struggles between classes would bring chaos and devastation to the society, institute terror, cause widespread misery and destitution, perpetrate mass murders of the Turks, and then form a government in which he and his comrades would be in plumping majority, I’d say that the new Turkish government composed predominantly of the Armenians.

    • [“Turks are responsible, because it were the masses of ethnic Turks … who physically murdered”]

      Yes, and by the same token, the Russian revolution would not be possible if the masses of Russians did not participate in and fight for it. Which is why it is a poor excuse to say that “Soviet Russia was not Russia” (and that is what you said, even if not literally).

      And by the way, you cannot discount somebody else’s sources when you don’t give your own. You know, so we can check if it’s from the usual conspiracist balderdash.

    • The “masses” of Russians did not participate in the so-called “Russian” revolution. A small trickle of armed Petrograd Bolsheviks entered the practically unguarded Winter Palace almost without resistance and overthrew the legitimate provisional government of Russia. So much for the “revolution”. One roughly half of the masses of Russians did fight for it. Initially. Until they fell into disenchantment with it. The other roughly half of the masses of Russians fought against it. Your argument is lame.

      I discount somebody else’s sources on the ground that they are dubious by definition, because anyone can edit or make amendments to Wikipedia. To regard Wikipedia as a source is a slap in the face of serious scholarship. My source is a witness account, i.e. a PRIMARY account of a correspondent of The Times stationed in Russia. See: Robert Wilton. 1920. Les Derniers Jours des Romanofs (obviously, in French).

    • Oh, john. Now I see why you did not provide your source in the first place. Robert Wilton? That is your “source” for your “list”? The dude is an anti-semite lunatic. Let’s see who he was:

      “Wilton was accused of being a right-wing antisemite. He was a proponent of blood libel and claimed that execution of the Romanovs was a ritual murder by the Jews.”
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Wilton

      Nice source, john. Was Adolf not available? Your “source” was moving around with the White Russian forces and was repeating every anti-semitic garbage they fed him. Seriously, john, have some respect for your own credibility.

      Sorry, but Wikipedia is widely referenced in online publications, so time to get on with the program. If you want to stay relevant, that is. Sure, anyone can edit it, but again, anyone else can correct the editions. And if your edition is not sourced, or has a bad source, it will be removed. I know because I was an editor. If you think my article is wrong, go ahead and put your correction. See what happens, especially when you try to use that “source” of yours.

      As for the Russian revolution, ok, let’s assume half of Russians fought for it (more likely it was more than the half, since they were the winning “half”). Half of Russia is huge. Presidents get elected with half the vote. The Russian revolution was still very much Russian. Your excuses are quite weak.

    • My source was provided at a point when I felt necessary to deride using Wikipedia as a “source” in an intellectual debate. Yes, Robert Wilton is an authoritative primary source, because unlike inimitable Wikipedia warriors, the “dude” was a correspondent of The Times accredited in Petrograd and an on-site observer of events in Russia during the last years of the Czarist regime and after the revolution. Therefore, I could care less what Wikipedia says about his political convictions, because the point of contention is not whether he was a right-wing or a left-wing or whether he was a Jew-baiter or a Jew-lover or whether he was moving around with the White Russian forces or the Red Russian forces, but that he reported to his respectable newspaper the composition of the first Bolshevik government and its Party apparatus, which he couldn’t just make up.

      Sorry, but in professional societies, educational institutions, academic circles or simply in intellectual debates about historical issues, they will laugh in one’s face if one uses Wikipedia as a source. But I guess it all boils down to a person’s intellectual tastes and caliber…

      As for the armed takeover of legitimate power in Petrograd, the half of the population of Russia who initially fought for this “revolution” very soon became disillusioned with it when they realized they were swindled by the Bolsheviks. In modern times, hardly would such disillusioned half elect a president. The “Russian revolution”–from its theoretical foundation laid by a grandson of a rabbi, ancestrally Jewish Marx to its practical realization by a matrilineally Jewish Ulyanov-Blank and his predominantly Jewish Bolshevik comrades–could not, therefore, in and of itself be “very much Russian” even if the half of the population was initially deluded by Bolshevik promises of land to the peasants and factories to the workers. But, of course, you may continue digging for frail excuses for the contrary. “Fortunately”, Wikipedia is always available…

  14. Part1
    (joe // March 10, 2015 at 9:47 am //)

    {“ Avery the only ‘make believe’ is you.”}

    Joe, the problem with people, those like you, who irrationally hate Russia and Russians, is this: yous never blame those who actually _did_ the killings – Turks and Turkbaijanis – but blame Russians for _not_ doing something or other.
    In your warped worldview a murderer carries less guilt than the bystander who supposedly did not do enough to help the murder victim.
    So in your Russophobe Turkophile worldview it is a greater sin that Soviet troops did not appear instantaneously in Sumgait or Baku, than the fact that the criminal leadership of Azerbaijan SSR planned, organized and executed the mass murder of Armenian civilians living in Azerbaijan SSR: Soviet brotherhood and all that.
    In the Sumgait pogrom of 1988, Soviet MVD troops, ‘armed’ only with truncheons intervened rapidly, but were overwhelmed by the Turkic Neo-Nazi Musavat mobs. MVD troops were savagely beaten and some were maimed.
    On the 3rd day 10,000 Soviet troops, including crack airborne, heavily armed and with armor support made it into Sumgait.
    Armenians trapped in their apartments were rescued by Soviet troops.
    Armenians, under heavy guard, were escorted into secure areas.
    By 1990 when Baku pogroms took place, Soviet Union was on its deathbed: central authority was largely gone.
    Sclerotic Moscow leadership was in disarray and paralyzed with indecision in the face of events it could not understand or control.
    The fact that Soviet troops intervened at all, late or not, disproves the allegation that there was any deliberate design by Moscow to have Armenians murdered by Turkbaijanis.
    If Moscow’s intention was to have as many Armenians killed as possible, they could have found some excuse not to send any troops.
    Had Soviet troops not shown up at all, instead of 100s killed in each city, 1000s of Armenian civilians would have been massacred in each city.
    After all, it is not the first time that Turks/Turkbaijanis have murdered 1000s or 10s of 1000s of Armenians, is it ?
    Is it ?

    {“ Whether you want to admit it or not much Armenia’s grief over the years came directly from RUSSIA and the corrupt regimes over the years.”}

    Whether you want to admit it or not, _all_ of Armenia’s and Armenians’ ‘grief’ over the past several centuries has come from savage nomadic Turkic tribes who invaded historic Armenian lands long, long before Russians entered Caucasus.
    No amount of Anti-Russian diatribe can change that immutable historic fact.
    Russians may or may not have helped Armenians at one time or another.
    But Turks invaded Armenian lands, ethnically cleansed Armenians, murdered Armenians, massacred Armenians, stole Armenian children and young women, stole Armenian genes, stole Armenian lands, stole Armenian property, stole Armenian gold, stole Armenian culture…stole everything.
    Massacred 300,000 Armenians in 1894-1895.
    Massacred 30,000 Armenians in 1909 Adana.
    Committed Genocide: 1915-1923; 1.5 million Armenians murdered.
    Turks and Turkbaijanis are still occupying historic Armenian lands.
    How many square kilometers of historic Armenian lands are Russians occupying ?

  15. Part2
    (joe // March 10, 2015 at 9:47 am //)

    As to the weapons sales.

    It is public knowledge that Russia has a contract to sell $4 billion worth of weaponry to Azerbaijan.
    It is also public knowledge that Israel has a contract to sell $1.6 billion worth of weaponry to Azerbaijan.
    Azerbaijan also purchases/purchased weapons from Turkey, Ukraine, Belarus,..a whole bunch of countries.
    When you have cash, countries from all over the world will line up to sell you stuff.
    Azerbaijan has tons of cash.
    If Russia did not sell, lots of other counties would rush to Baku to sell.
    And it may or may not be public knowledge, but RoA gets modern weapons from Russia at a discount or at cost.
    Sometimes free of charge.

    Russia, a strategic ally of RoA, selling weapons to Azerbaijan has positives and negatives.
    The negative is that it looks – only looks – bad: but looks are deceiving.
    The unemotional facts are that Azerbaijan having Russian design weapons is a plus for Armenia.
    Why ? because RoA military knows their strengths and weaknesses.
    Doesn’t it also mean that Azerbaijan also knows about RoA’s Russian design weapons ?
    Of course it does.
    But RoA has no choice and Azerbaijan does.
    RoA simply cannot afford to purchase quantities of weapons on the open market at market prices.
    Azerbaijan can afford to buy anything on the open market.
    They buy Russian (Soviet design), because their troops and commanders are familiar: Soviet legacy.
    What if Azerbaijan military was fully equipped with Israeli tanks, missiles, etc: Armenia has little knowledge about Israeli weapons, but Azerbaijan has knowledge about Armenia’s Russian design weapons.
    Which option would you prefer ?

    The unemotional facts are that Russia selling weapons to Azerbaijan keeps Azerbaijan dependent on Russia.
    Moscow has told Aliyev numerous times that only a peaceful solution to NKR ‘problem’ is acceptable.
    What does that tell Baku ?
    Yes, words are just words, and weapons are weapons.
    But has Israel placed any restrictions on its weapons use by Azerbaijan ?
    Have _any_ other countries ?

    In fact, during the Jul/Aug 2014 incursions into RoA and NKR when several Armenian troops were KIA, Armenians captured Israeli made squad radio equipment and various other Made-in-Israel military gear that were used to kill Armenians.
    Any outrage ?
    NATO member Turkey is actively training Turkbaijani special forces troops to invade and kill Armenians.
    In fact a couple of days ago a Turkish instructor was KIA with his Turkbaijani SF troops.
    Where is your outrage ?
    US Asst Sect State Victoria Nuland made a statement in Yerevan a couple of weeks ago demanding that Armenians make a “humanitarian gesture” (sic) and release the 2 savage invadonomad Turkbaijani terrorist murderers.
    Let me translate that Orwellian newspeak to everyday English for yous: Ms. Victoria “F___ EU” Nuland is approving, in a roundabout way, the murder of a 17-year-old Armenian youth by these Anti-Armenian Turkic Islamist terrorist savages, and wants them released so they can murder more Christian Armenians.
    How many ways can you spell Anti-Armenian Anti-Christian.
    Where is the outrage from yous Russophobes ?
    Where are the protest marches in Yerevan by the SorosaCardes ?

    • If Azerbaijan is such a problem for Russia, why doesn’t powerful Russia just treat it as the vicious enemy it is and tame and neutralize it?

      A friend of Azerbaijan would sell it weapons.
      That is not what an enemy like Russia would do. Makes no sense.

      Russia should be trying to neutralize Turkey too, not treating it as a friend.

      The logic of some people here is backwards.
      Too much over-thinking and sophistication.
      Your enemy is an enemy.
      Treat it like that, or they will treat you like that.

    • Sos, while too much “over-thinking” maybe unnecessary… under-thinking is very dangerous. People like you are very dangerous. I suggest you stop watching tv and take a few courses on history and international relations.

  16. “NATO member Turkey is actively training Turkbaijani special forces troops to invade and kill Armenians.
    In fact a couple of days ago a Turkish instructor was KIA with his Turkbaijani SF troops.
    Where is your outrage ?”

    This is not surprising. Turkey is a known quantity. They hate us and would of course do something like this.

    Russia on the other hand is a concern because I don’t believe it’s clear how far Russia would go to help defend Karabakh. That’s the fear. They may defend Armenia but maybe not Arstakh.

    Where was Russia’s outrage when Azeris are killing people in Karabakh? They made the same weak Western statement that essentially said “Both sides need to chill out.”

    There is uncertainty with Russia and since without Russia Armenia’s security is not guaranteed, there will be unease.

    Is Russia 100% on our side? Do we know for sure?

    • “There is uncertainty with Russia”…

      There sure is a degree of uncertainty, as with any country other than Armenia proper. What, if Artsakh is attacked, the valorous US Army will fly to help? Just like they “helped” their ally Georgia back in 2008?

    • john,

      I’m not arguing US will help defend Armenia military. Anyone who thinks that is a naive fool. And so is anyone who thinks Russia will put Armenia above Russian interests.

      I find it silly that any time it’s pointed out that Russia will act like a major and may do things that benefit her at the expense of Armenia. That’s all.

  17. Both Avery’s and Joe’s views can be reconciled.

    Nobody–NOBODY–is absolving Turks and Azeris of responsibility for the actual killings.

    However, this discussion is not about assigning past responsibility, but formulating present policy.

    This present policy is that Armenia has chosen to put all of its eggs in the Russian basket, so to speak. In analyzing whether this is wise policy, it is perfectly appropriate to evaluate Russia’s actions during the Turkish and Azeri killings of the past. If Russia did not act to prevent those killings in the past, what suggests that it will do so in the future?

    It is perfectly consistent to blame Turkey and Azerbaijan for past genocides (Avery) while still evaluating Russia’s role *in order to analyze the wisdom of a present alliance with Russia* (Joe).

    • Avery’s supreme hero Sarkissian was negotiating an economic deal with the EU to complement Russia. The negotiations went on for 3 years, meaning Sarkissian was serious about it Suddenly, with one meeting with Putin, it all got scrapped and Armenia joins the EEU. Armenia actually does not have a choice but to put her eggs in the Russian basket.

      And if the news lately is true, Armenia and EU are still trying to negotiating some sort of deal that does not conflict with the EEU.

  18. Random,

    Then essentially what are we arguing? I’m not in either camp, as some simpletons here attempt to mark off. I just try to be sober minded and understand the point that the opponents of the Russian-Armenian alliance are making.

    I haven’t seen anyone in this forum who said he or she thinks Russia will put Armenia above Russian interests. I, for one, admit there is a degree of uncertainty that Russia may do things that benefit her at the expense of Armenia if the situation in the region radically changes. I mean, radically. But I guess the question is what do you do if you’re Armenia? Some inimitable ones here will rush to suggest that Armenia embraces democracy as a panacea. I hope you’re a person of higher order of intelligence to understand that democracy doesn’t feed the people nor does it keep them warm nor does it defend them against the enemies’ superior force.

    Yet again, what do you do? Before Sarkissian, the “greatest” foreign minister ever Oskanian was advancing his ill-fated complementarity policy, which, despite its shortcomings and utopian daydreaming, demonstrated that Armenia at least tried to put her eggs in several baskets, so to speak, to achieve an inter-relation of reciprocity whereby one external player supplements the other—all for Armenia’s benefit. However, the policy failed to take into calculations the fact that the West never actually stepped in the region–aside from BP in Azerbaijan, while Russia was steadily gaining momentum as a re-emerging superpower. Because of this oversight, among other things, the policy has failed miserably.

    Now we have Sarkissian negotiating for three years with the EU and then suddenly taking a sweep towards the EEU. At least he tried (and I’m not his admirer) to reach an economic deal with the EU to complement Russia, yes, but then something that we will never know happened. Let’s hypothesize that Sarkissian was urged by the Kremlin to join the EEU. I guess he only had three options: (1) reject and face the consequences; (2) resign; and (3) accept the proposition. Yes, he could resign. Probably. He certainly should have resigned when the notorious protocol process was forced onto him by the West. But if in the case of protocols he lacked broad-based public support–both in RoA and in the Diaspora, with the EEU the situation was divergently different: the majority of his people actually supported the move. And this is an important factor that opponents to Armenia’s alliance with Russia conveniently forget.

    Ideally, I’d love to see Armenia self-ruled, free and independent. But, with your hand on your heart, do you really think this can fully materialize being resource-poor and having in close geographic proximity a country like Russia? C’mon… It’s almost the same as to have Mexico fully independent having the US as a neighbor. A Mexican saying, as you may know, goes like this: “Poor Mexico, so far from God and so close to the United States.”

    Whether we like it or not, there are no other alternatives for Armenia in this historical juncture. We should use it to our advantage, just like the unavoidable Soviet period (no comparison with the EEU, of course) was used to make grand achievements in sciences, industry, sports, arts and literature.

  19. {“ Avery’s supreme hero Sarkissian was negotiating an economic deal with the EU to complement Russia”}

    You don’t know what you are talking about Random: EU told RoA at the outset either EU or EEU.
    President Sargsyan called their bluff.
    After allowing a suitable time to pass, EU officials started running to the microphones to announce that EU would very much like to continue developing relations with RoA at any level that does not conflict with EEU.

    Armenia’s leadership, since Independence, has very wisely maintained cordial relations with the West: very smart, particularly given the presence of large and influential Armenian Diaspora in powerhouse countries.
    But Armenia’s leadership also knows, since Independence, which country, the only country, can stop NATO member Turkey from invading Armenia.

    And when you resort to desperate phrases such as “Avery’s supreme hero Sarkissian…” it means you are unable to argue facts.
    As is your MO, when cornered, you start throwing ‘accolades’ in my direction.
    Would you like me to list them again in this thread ? Let me know.

    As to the EEU.

    The representatives of adult electorate of the citizens of Armenia, the Parliament, voted to ratify the EEU union by 94%.
    The only party that voted against it was the delusional Heritage.
    Read that again: 94% of Armenian people’s representatives voted for EEU.
    The treaty was ratified with 103 votes“for” , 7 “against” and one abstention. Do you have problem with democracy ?

    You don’t live in Armenia do you ?
    Neither do I.
    Let me paste what someone who does live there said re EEU.

    [ARF Dashnaktsutyun to vote for joining Eurasian Union]
    http://news.am/eng/news/242411.html
    {YEREVAN. – Armenia’s accession to the Eurasian Union is an examination that the country should pass according to “what does not kill me makes me stronger” principle, MP from ARF Dashnaktsutyun believes.
    Armen Rustamyan agreed with the assertions that Armenia could hold better talks while drafting a treaty on accession to the Eurasian Economic Union. “Today we must make decisions taking into account the situation. Armenia and NKR are in a blockade and in a state of war. The world is in a state of new Cold War. The struggle for influence between super powers has brought to direct confrontation. For Armenia, it is important to decide how to behave in this situation,” Rustamyan emphasized. The MP stressed that if we want peace, we should be prepared for war. The task is to hand over 42 thousand square kilometers of Armenian land to the next generation.“If you do not have a better alternative for the security of the country, you should preserve the existing ones. Calm down, it’s a fact. For ARF this treaty is a solution for safety,” he resumed.}

    • ” EU told RoA at the outset either EU or EEU.
      President Sargsyan called their bluff.”

      What do you mean by outset? I believe the details of the EEU wasn’t fleshed out when Armenia started negotiating with the EU. The details of the EU deal were known to Armenia before the EEU materialized. At least to my understanding. I could be wrong here on the history of the EEU though.

      Also I believe what the EU meant was that the EU and EEU economic treaties were simply not compatible. Not an ultimatum. And I believe the EEU details didn’t solidify until after the EU treaty negotiations were well underway. So I think, again I could be wrong, it’s the EEU that ended up being incompatible with the EU treaty.

      And what do you mean by bluff? What was Sarkissian bluffing from the EU? Engaging in a serious treaty negotiations, in good faith, for 3 years and then suddenly doing a u-turn, is really not in good form. The EU understood the pressure Armenia was under from Russia.

      “And when you resort to desperate phrases such as “Avery’s supreme hero Sarkissian…” it means you are unable to argue facts.”

      Seriously Avery? You’re projecting way too much here. You’re the one calling fellow Armenians Turkophile or Turkoglu or claiming Aliev is their hero. What I said is based on your admiration of Sarkissian you’ve made clear in your posts. To call a fellow Armenian Turkophile or Turkoglu because of a disagreement is your way of discrediting that person by suggesting they are not true Armenians like you.

      We’re all Armenian here Avery and we all find ourselves in these discussions because we care about the Armenian nation.

      “Armenia’s leadership, since Independence, has very wisely maintained cordial relations with the West: very smart, particularly given the presence of large and influential Armenian Diaspora in powerhouse countries.”

      Well it’s not about being smart. This is a very interconnected world we live in. It only makes sense to have economic relations with the west and the east. Why limit yourself?

  20. (john // March 13, 2015 at 12:09 pm //)

    [John, excellent posts re Bolshevik leaders. learned much new.

    (that’s what I like about AW: lots of data-rich posts)

    • Agreed Avery, John’s posts did reveal some important but often intentionally neglected facts by most scholars and researchers, and this thread can serve as a good historical insight into the Bolshevik “Russian” Revolution for future discussion.

  21. To listen to some of the posters, the Russian military will always defend Armenia. If that is so, why does Armenia even need an army?

    And if Russia will always defend Armenia’s political interests, why even bother having an Armenian government? Let Russia run Armenia.

    • Sos, it was the dumbest comment I’ve ever read in AW, I’m sorry to say.

      Article 5 of the NATO Charter particularly states that the Alliance comes to defense of a member-state if she is attacked. Why does Turkey even need an army?

      And if the US will always defend Israel’s political interests, why even bother having an Israeli government? Let America run Israel.

  22. You people said that Russia will always come to the defense of Armenia. If so, Armenia has no worries.
    You’re the ones who said it. You said it was a guarantee.
    If you don’t want people to take it literally, don’t say it so unequivocally.

    Glad to see that Russia is coming to Armenia’s defense when Azerbaijan fires shells at Armenian border villages and shoots Armenians there. Oh, wait, Russia does and says nothing. That part of your mutual defense treaty?

    By the way, do we know that Putin and his ilk will stay in power, and since you say Jews took over after 1917, are we assured that they won’t take over again? The Russians showed themselves incapable of handling them then. It can’t happen again?

    Why does Russia not admit that Karabagh and Nakhichevan should not have been given to Azerbaijan if Russia is supposedly so intent on discarding the Jewish policies of the old Soviet Union?
    I am sure you all have explanations.

    • Mother Russia behavior toward Armenia is same as UK and some other European countries…..the reason Russia is in Armenian territories just because of North Caucasus and Central Asian instabilities, where any moment they can go against Mother Russia and join the Turkic herds and become Western vessel against Mother Russia.

      I believe if a lucrative deal break up between Russia and Turkey, cash starved Russia will abandon Armenia, as they did in 1921 and 1936…we have lost first entire Western Armenia, then uncle Joe gave away Artsakh and Nakhichevan to Tatar-Turks! What we need now a united Armenia. As long as we are united we will get back what ever we have lost, regardless of how Russia or UK or US may act!

      The only nation that Armenia can trust at this moment is Iran, where their foreign national security coincide with Armenia, against Pan-Turkic threat in the region!

    • I’m sorry, but I’ll pass on this one because I normally don’t offer explanations to individuals who address their fellow-commenters by “You people”, which only indicates that poster Sos may be just another small TurkoAzeri…

    • You can’t answer a simple question:

      “Why does Russia not admit that Karabagh and Nakhichevan should not have been given to Azerbaijan if Russia is supposedly so intent on discarding the Jewish policies of the old Soviet Union?”

    • Gurgenovich,
      You must be in love with the character of Lev Mikhaelovich Karakhan, who was the only naive simple minded Armenian communist in Lenin’s listing, the one, who was forced by comrade Stalin to sign shameful Kars traety, where Turkic herds and Mustafa Pasha illegally annexed Western Armenia as a gift from brotherly Soviet Russia. Unfortunately Stalin executed him after Mikhelovich completed his Ambassadorial job to Turkey.
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Karakhan

  23. To all,

    This topic has been discussed ad nauseum. At least the intelligent ones amongst us can safely conclude that Russian arms sales to Baku is not directed against Armenia because for every weapons system Russia ‘sells’ to Baku it ‘gives’ Armenia a weapons system that can counter it on the battlefield. At the end of the day the big bad Russian Bear is Armenia’s one and only ally, and thank God for that. Without Russia, all of the south Caucasus will be overrun by Turks and Muslims. The two centuries old friendship between Russians and Armenians have passed the test of time. It’s time we start discussing something else.

    Thank you.

    • You “intelligent ones” and die-hard Russophiles have essentially NO ANSWER, but can only call names and buddy up with each other.

      All you can say is “trust Russia” 100% as if that’s an answer.

      No one has ever said to throw Russia out or not to ally Armenia with Russia, though you keep pretending that that is what people are saying. That is what we expect of Russophiles. It is not something we expect of people with intelligence.

      If anyone ever questions anything whatsoever about the Russian – Armenian relationship, you guys go into a fascist-like tailspin.

      If you can’t answer, just say so, and have fun in Moscow.

    • Gurgenovich,
      The shameful 1921 treaty of Moscow, when comrade Stalin forced naive Lev Mikhailovich Karakhan to sign and hand over Western Armenia to Mustafa Pasha as a gift from Lenin was the beginning of Russia’s domination over Armenia during and after First World War. Karakhan was executed by Stalin in 1936, for his loyalty to mother Russia after serving as Ambassador of USSR in Turkey. Apparently Karakhan found his deadly mistake with his old comrade in the treaty of Kars. People like you are willing to die for mother Russia but not for you beloved country Armenia! Go get your weapon and fight against those Tatar-Turks, who are killing Artsakhi soldiers, instead of praising mother Russia’s phenomenon in AW!
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Karakhan

  24. (Random Armenian // March 15, 2015 at 8:28 pm //)

    Armenia and EU had concluded negotiations on a political association and free trade pact with Armenia and expected to initial it at an EU summit.
    However, EU told Armenia that if Armenia _does_ become a full member of the Russian-led customs bloc, along with Belarus and Kazakhstan, it cannot sign the EU pact at the same time.
    So EU gave Armenia an either/or choice, despite the fact that RoA Gov had been repeating the phrase “And-And” ad nauseam.
    So President Sargsyan in effect told EU “Fine, if that’s the choice, then we are going with EEU. See ya.”
    And as events have shown since the EEU announcement, EU is eager to continue its relationship with RoA.

    On March 18, 2015 in Yerevan, EU Commissioner Johannes Hahn said this:
    {“ I hope we will be able to start the negotiations on the new agreement on Armenia-EU after getting the necessary negotiation mandate from the EU states”, – said Johannes Hahn, emphasizing that the European Union want to continue the relations with Armenia, fully respecting the future obligations of the Republic of Armenia. The EU is determined also about the development of a positive agenda for the future cooperation directions, which will be compatible with Armenia’s other commitments”.}

    Question for you: why would EU be so eager to continue developing relations with RoA, even after Armenia chose EEU ?

    Also please see [John]’s excellent reply to you re EEU in this same thread (john // March 13, 2015 at 9:13 pm //)
    In particular, this sentence: { ….. with the EEU the situation was divergently different: the majority of his people actually supported the move. And this is an important factor that opponents to Armenia’s alliance with Russia conveniently forget.}
    And as I also wrote in another post addressed to you: EEU accession was ratified by 94% of RoA Parliament.
    People in the Western camp endlessly preach about democracy this, democracy that.
    How about it ? Is there a problem with democracy when it does not fit someone’s agenda ?
    The democratically elected representatives of “We the People of Armenia” voted, overwhelmingly, to ratify President Sargsyan’s decision.
    And I also pasted an excellent excerpt from the ARF MP in that regard: read it again.
    One of _the_ best paragraphs written re the rationale for RoA in EEU I have seen to date.
    But nothing is good enough, because the anti-EEU camp has an agenda: I will leave it up to you to contemplate what that agenda might be.

    Regarding: {“To call a fellow Armenian Turkophile or Turkoglu because of a disagreement is your way of discrediting that person by suggesting they are not true Armenians like you.
    We’re all Armenian here Avery and we all find ourselves in these discussions because we care about the Armenian nation.”}

    I have not called you Turkoglu: I have called you Turkophile, because you are.
    The most recent example is you bringing up the 3 Armenian pilots killed by an Igla.
    I asked you why didn’t you mention the undeniable fact that in 2014 about 40 young Armenian men were killed by Turkish and/or Israeli military equipment. In 2015 so far about 10 Armenian young men were similarly killed.
    Why is it that you (plural) notice the 3 Armenian men killed by a Russian-made Igla, but ignore the 50-odd Armenian men killed by Turkbaijanis/Turks trained by Turkey and using Turkish and/or Israeli military hardware ?
    The fact that you would deliberately ignore that lopsided kill ratio and keep on harping on the 3 Armenian pilots killed by an Igla tells me you are Turkophile.
    You invariably zero in on any and all ‘problems’ related to Russia, but ignore Turks and Turkabaijanis: Armenia’s and Armenians’ only mortal, centuries long _enemies_.
    And I have told you this before: you and I have been posting for a long time. I do not form my opinion based on one or two posts.
    You and I go back to the days of that vile denialist Turk Necati Genis posting stuff about someone close to you: remember him ?

    And No, we are not all Armenians (posters) here @AW.
    The ones I label Turkoglu, nomad, nomadoglu, etc are either Turks or Turkbaijanis posting under Armenian names.
    And they are engaged in dissemination of Anti-Armenian propaganda, disinformation, and are working to create discord/divisions amongst us Armenians.
    Their agenda, their advocacy, the content of their posts are the proof.
    I don’t call people who disagree with me Turkoglu: only those who are engaged in Anti-Armenian proselytizing.
    And the reason I do that is to let them know the jig is up.

    • I lost track of this thread.

      Avery, can you explain what you mean by Turkophile? Does it mean pro-Turk? Turk sympathizer? What exactly is your point?

      “Why is it that you (plural) notice the 3 Armenian men killed by a Russian-made Igla, but ignore the 50-odd Armenian men killed by Turkbaijanis/Turks trained by Turkey and using Turkish and/or Israeli military hardware ?”

      I do notice this. Just because I make no mention of it does not mean I’m not upset or concerned about it. Does this mean I’m some sort of Turkophile? This is a bad argument on your part Avery. And frankly insulting.

      Notice that you’re equating Armenians killed by Russian weapons at the hands of Azeris with Turkish and Israeli involvement. A subconscious slip on your part maybe?

      The reason people get riled up with Russia selling weapons to Azerbaijan is that Armenia has a deep relationship with Russia, including military and security treaties. We have none with Turkey and Israel. For many Armenians this feels like a betrayal. Even Sassounian, your infallible hero, talked about this. And yet you had nothing to say.

      Pres. Sarkissian and FM Nalbandian have mentioned in public that the weapon sales to the Azeris worry them. Do you have anything to say about it? Do we Armenians cannot note and make comments about this? The Armenian leadership has. In fact there was a news report the other day that Sarkissian brought up the weapons sales in his meeting with Putin. Why if it’s not something to be concerned about?

      I’ve found your argument style frustrating Avery. You bring up red herrings and misdirections all the time. And you have no right to degrade a fellow Armenian by calling them Turkophile and Turkoglu as if you’re judge and jury over who is and isn’t and Armenian. I don’t know whether to be upset at the things you say or laugh. I end up doing both.

      We’re all in the same boat here. I have no problems with well made arguments, made with sincere intentions to have an open discussion, meant to keep each other honest. But insinuating that what someone has to say should not be taken seriously because they are less than Armenian, well that just plain wrong.

    • “The reason people get riled up with Russia selling weapons to Azerbaijan is that Armenia has a deep relationship with Russia, including military and security treaties. We have none with Turkey and Israel. For many Armenians this feels like a betrayal.”

      Bingo. Well said.

    • [I lost track of this thread.]

      Random, to the extent that you didn’t even care to reply to my March 13, 2015 at 9:13 pm post? I’ll be here, at least for a while…

  25. Random:

    Here is proof that we are not all Armenian posters here @AW.
    It’s a partial re-post of mine, with the poster’s name removed this time.
    These sentences were written by someone posting under an Armenian name @ArmenianWeekly.
    Please try to honestly convince me and other readers of AW that those sentences were in fact written by an Armenian.

    {““nkr” is not a large territory. As I stated earlier, it’s a pathetic little piece of aborted fetus (geopolitically speaking, of course).”}

    {“unlike the thugs in the pathetic state of “Armenia” (oh, and in that terrorist entity called “nkr”.)”}

    {“ Most likely, these thugs from “Karabakh” and the “Fund” would end up with broken bones or worse. Which is bound to happen sooner or later. That, or the Azeris will invade and rape these thugs when the people are gone. I personally prefer the first option.”}

  26. Are you a Russophile or a Russophobe? Can I be neither and instead be just a plain old patriotic Armenian instead? This means that I will judge our friends and foes based on their actions and policies, keeping in mind not to jump to conclusions about incomplete facts at my disposal.

    After reading this article again, I actually found that it made many points that was not quite that far from the reality on the ground that Armenia is in, except a couple of points I would not agree with, namely the wrong title for one, and that “Russia could even help Azerbaijan defeat Artsakh”. Nope. The chance of that is near zero.

    The title, “Sleeping with our enemy” in fact would be better suited for Azerbaijan and its relationship with Russia, not Armenia. They are the ones “sleeping with the enemy” by playing to the tune of the anti-Russia western interests while flirting with Russia at the same time, and all they need to do is cross a Russian red line, to promptly have the bear give them the Georiga-2008 treatment. In contrast, Armenia’s relationship with the west is smart, balanced and reasonable while at the same time not violating Russia’s security interests in the region.

    And in case of a renewed war between Azerbaijan and Artsakh, the worst Russia could do is probably just remain neutral and watch Artsakh forces overrun Azerbaijan. During the last months of the Soviet Union, Russia did previously ‘help’ Azerbaijan to a limited degree in the war, but the reality today is very different than 20 years ago.

    • Hagop,

      “In contrast, Armenia’s relationship with the west is smart, balanced and reasonable while at the same time not violating Russia’s security interests in the region.”

      Well that’s the way we see it. But, the problem I see is that right now, Russia with Putin at the helm, is irrationally nationalistic. Russia might not want Armenia dealing with the West in any way simply because it’s the West. Even if there are no threats to Russia.

      Do we really know what’s going on in Putin’s head and what his intentions are?

      “and that “Russia could even help Azerbaijan defeat Artsakh”. Nope. The chance of that is near zero.”

      The thing is, it’s within Russia’s power to do this and we Armenians cannot stop it. It does not mean Russia will do it, but they can if they so choose.

      Russia wants to reclaim her influence over the former Soviet republics including Azerbaijan. That means that Azerbaijan has something Russia wants, and with billions in petro-dollars, Azeris can resist better than Armenia. Azeris can demand more from Russia than Armenia can.

      I have no idea how this will play out, but understanding your and your enemies strengths and weaknesses is important.

  27. Avery, the reason why people like Random Armenian focus on Russia’s actions rather than Turkey’s and Azerbaijan’s is because we expect our allies to behave better than our enemies do. It is that simple. We can yell at our enemies all we want; it is more productive to reason with our allies.

    Your idea that any criticism of Russia must be “balanced” by criticism of Turkey and Azerbaijan is beyond tired. In fact, it is just like the “sharing of pain” rhetoric of Davutoglu, whereby any mention of the Armenians exterminated in 1915 must be “balanced” by mention of the Turkish casualties of war.

    • What is it that makes you believe that our allies don’t in fact behave better than our enemies? They mass murdered us in 1915-1923? They killed and mutilated us in Sumgait, Kirovabad, Baku, and Maragha in 1988? They started war against Artsakh in the early 1990s? They keep Armenia and Artsakh under economic blockade? They almost daily kill our border troops at the LoC? They almost daily threaten us with the resumption of war? Yes, they sold weapons to our enemy, but I thought after 80+ comments it should have been clear already that it was NOT an Anti-Armenian move and that our ally might have other, broader politico-military considerations by doing so.

    • “Yes, they sold weapons to our enemy, but I thought after 80+ comments it should have been clear already that it was NOT an Anti-Armenian move and that our ally might have other, broader politico-military considerations by doing so.”

      Repeating it 80 times does not mean those weapons cannot be used against Armenians.

      Geopolitical considerations? Are these considerations for or against Armenia? That’s the issue. Russia knows full well that Azerbaijan want’s to take Artsakh, and at least a chunk of Armenia, back militarily. And yet they’re selling them anyway.

      What is Russia’s ultimate intentions in the Caucasuses and how will it play out for Armenia? That’s the issue.

    • Any weapons that are in AzerBEYjan’s possession can be used against Armenians, whether they’re Russian-made or non-Russian-made. And repeating with explanatory notes 80+ times that in many respects it is more fitting, so to say, for Armenia (for certain military and security reasons) that Russian-made weapons be sold to the Azeris, should have already convinced the heaviest mind.

      Are these geopolitical considerations for or against Armenia? Well, they are for Russia, for sure. But if Russia agrees to maintain a military base in Armenia, make bilateral military and national security arrangements with Armenia, be a member in the same collective security organization with Armenia, make long-term commitments to Armenia in the framework of such organization–it all suggests that Armenia is considered–at least for now and within a conceivable period of time–an important part of Russia’s geopolitical considerations. This is a trivial syllogism that any person considering himself an intellectual should be able to put to use.

      Russia also knows full well that even if Moscow didn’t sell to the Azeris, AzerBEYjan will want to take Artsakh back militarily by purchasing weapons of foreign manufacture.

      [What are Russia’s ultimate intentions in the Caucasus and how will it play out for Armenia? That’s the issue.]

      Yes, that is the issue. But I don’t have a crystal ball.

  28. (Alex // March 24, 2015 at 8:50 pm // )

    { Your idea that any criticism of Russia must be “balanced” by criticism of Turkey and Azerbaijan is beyond tired. In fact, it is just like the “sharing of pain” rhetoric of Davutoglu, whereby any mention of the Armenians exterminated in 1915 must be “balanced” by mention of the Turkish casualties of war.}

    Equating our discussion of weapons sales by Russia, Israel, etc to Azerbaijan to the denial of the Armenian Genocide by scum like Davutoglu is beneath contempt.
    Are you really that desperate, [Alex] ?

    And what “balance” are you talking about ?
    When was the last time you or anyone else on your side brought up the fact that Armenian young men have been killed or are being killed by weapons and military equipment manufactured by Israel, for example.
    My memory is pretty good but not perfect: maybe you did and I forgot. Show me the link @AW where you specifically noted that Armenian young men were killed by non-Russian military equipment.
    In fact as I previously wrote, the numbers of Armenians killed by non-Russian weaponry is off the charts: about 40 Armenian soldiers killed in 2014; about 15 so far in 2015.

    But you and your camp do not bring it up, because it does not fit your agenda.

    Again for all you enamored by the West: in the most recent incursion, Turkish trained Azerbaijani special forces killed 3 Armenian soldiers.
    One of those who was wounded severely died yesterday (he was shot in the head), bringing the total KIA to 4.
    Another one who was wounded severely is very critical: not expected to survive.
    The fact that our side killed at least 14 enemy invaders (possibly up to 20) is no consolation to me: every single Armenian young man at the LOC is irreplaceable as far as the Armenian Nation is concerned.

    But here again what is not being widely discussed: Turkbaijani invaders left behind some military equipment.
    In particular, assault rifles equipped with “Made in Israel” night vision scope and silencer.
    Same as during the Jul/Aug 2014 incursions: “Made in Israel” (and made in Turkey/NATO) military equipment used to kill large numbers of Armenians.

    Any comment ?

  29. (Random Armenian // March 25, 2015 at 11:47 am //)

    {“I lost track of this thread. Avery, can you explain what you mean by Turkophile? Does it mean pro-Turk? Turk sympathizer? What exactly is your point?”}

    [Random] if you admit that I proved to you that not all posters here @AW are Armenians – as you falsely claimed in furtherance of some agenda – then I’ll see what I can do.

    {“Notice that you’re equating Armenians killed by Russian weapons at the hands of Azeris with Turkish and Israeli involvement. A subconscious slip on your part maybe?”}

    Clearly you have run out of logical arguments, and are grasping at straws: your usual SOP when you are logically and factually cornered.
    Let me explain, again: the fact that those on your side of the argument see the Russian speck while ignoring the non-Russian log clearly shows your bias and your agenda.
    The fact that your side keeps harping on the 3 Armenian pilots killed by an Igla (that may or may not have been inherited from USSR), while ignoring the 55 or so Armenian young men killed by non-Russian military equipment in 2014 and 2015 to date, clearly demonstrates where your sympathies lie.
    The fact that all those Turkbaijani special forces teams penetrating the LOC and killing Armenian young men were trained in NATO member Turkey and are equipped with “Made in Israel” hardware (silencers, night scopes, comm. equipment,…) is being ignored by your side is clear indication of which ones are having a “subconscious slip”.

    { Pres. Sarkissian and FM Nalbandian have mentioned in public that the weapon sales to the Azeris worry them. Do you have anything to say about it? }

    Yes I do: next post.

    • [Random] if you admit that I proved to you that not all posters here @AW are Armenians – as you falsely claimed in furtherance of some agenda – then I’ll see what I can do.

      What does that have anything to do with my arguments? I’m not interested in what anyone falsely posting as Armenian has to say.

    • And where exactly are my sympathies avery? I don’t believe you understand me at all.

      I’ve explained elsewhere that Turkish and Israeli reasons for getting involved with Azerbaijan is clear and not hard to understand. Turkish involvement is no surprise. They would love to see a second genocide. Israel has its own reasons (oil, spying on Iran from Azerbaijan and weapons sales). Upsetting and frustrating and painful, but not surprising.

      Russia on the other hand is an ally of Armenia, unlike the above two. Armenia and Russia have deep military and economic relationship and reliance on Russia as a deterrent against Turkey and Azerbaijan. That makes it even more hurtful and raises concerns about where Russia’s end goals are. Armenia depends on Russia for security, not Israel and Turkey. If you do not understand that many Armenians, including those in Armenia feel this way, then I don’t think you will ever understand.

  30. john,

    I think we’re on the same page on a lot of things here. I understand the pro-Russian geopolitical reasons why Russia is supporting Armenia. I just don’t see it as a pro-Armenian stance as a lot of Russia-glorifiers that post here seem to think.

    I’m also not convinced that Azerbaijan can have the same level of military without Russian sales. Israel does not have helicopters and planes to sell. US sales to Azerbaijan are not guaranteed. And any other non-Russian air power sales would most likely be second hand hardware.

    For example, I’m not buying the argument that the brand new tanks that Russia is selling to the Azeris are nothing to worry about because they are export versions. Even the export versions would be effective and they can easily be made more effective with after-market upgrades. Armenia made a deal with Poland to upgrade her older tanks for example. Nobody here is any more of a military expert than you and I, so I’m not taking these 80+ assertions at face value. I mean seriously, who here has a deep and expert understanding of military capabilities and the deals being done behind closed doors.

    The Sarkissian administration has publicly said they are worried about the Russian-Azeri sales. That’s not nothing. That’s significant.

    Armenia needs to be militarily dominant over Azerbaijan, not on equal footing, so that they won’t be tempted to reignite the war.

    “Yes, that is the issue. But I don’t have a crystal ball.”

    I don’t either, but based on Armenian history, never ever put your faith in a major power. There are no guarantees from Russia.

    • The question I raised in my // March 13, 2015 at 9:13 pm // post, which you continue to put on blinders and earmuffs on, was: “What do you do if you are Armenia?” When you care to reply to that older post of mine, I’ll try to provide reasoning for your most recent one.

    • john,

      As Armenia I would have no choice but to go along with Russia. What else is there to say? Russia controls Armenia and Arstakh. Russia can give Artsakh to the Azeris if they wish. No matter how determined and brave the Armenian soldier is, he cannot do it with Russian arms and support.

      Armenians in Armenia are worried about the Russian arms sales and are wondering if they can trust Russia. And you guys don’t want to acknowledge that they have a right to feel that way.

    • “As Armenia I would have no choice but to go along with Russia. What else is there to say?”

      Then, again, what are we essentially arguing??

      “Armenians in Armenia are worried about the Russian arms sales and are wondering if they can trust Russia.” Is this what we’re arguing?

      Allow me to take up the torch, so to speak, from the hands of Russophobes in this thread for a moment and suggest the following politico-military scenario for Armenia and the South Caucasus region. Hypothetical, of course. Imagine that America is Armenia’s BFF (lol, sorry). The two countries have:
      (a) signed a strategic partnership agreement, as well as agreements in economic, military, business, banking, telecommunications and a host of other fields;
      (b) the government of the “land of the free and the home of the brave” has decided to deploy a military base to Armenia’s border with Turkey;
      (c) the US government has decided to run piping across the Atlantic Ocean bed all the way to the Black Sea and then through Georgia to Armenia in order to supply oil and natural gas on the basis of contract (cheaper) prices;
      (d) Armenia was at some point invited to join the EU and NATO.

      BUT, with all those developments in sight, the US government continues to sell arms to Armenia’s archenemy Turkey and at some point also sold arms to Armenia’s other archenemy, AzeriBEYjan.

      Wouldn’t Armenians in Armenia be worried about the American arms sales and wonder if they can trust America? And if your answer is “Yes, they would”, then you will have to understand that you cannot achieve impeccable equality in relations between a stronger state and a smaller state EVEN if both are considered allies. A NATO ally Turkey, may I remind you, refused to allow a land route for American troops at an earlier stage of the Iraq invasion. And an infamous high-ranking US State Department official allows herself expressions like “F*** EU” knowing that several of America’s fellow NATO member-states are EU members, too.

      What else is there to say, Random?

  31. Random Armenian,

    What you and other like you cant seem to be able to understand or admit is the simple fact that Russia is NOT in a state of war with Baku and is actually trying hard to LURE Baku into its orbit. So, Russia will maintain good relations with Baku at the same time making sure that it protects Armenia from Baku and Ankara. Russia is therefore MANAGING the situation between Yerevan, Ankara and Baku. Also, even though Armenia is allied to Russia, Moscow officials know very well that starving Armenians can be easily bought by Western money and that Armenia and Armenian society in general is rife with Western operatives. I think a quick look at yourself and others here is enough to show you that Russians cannot trust Armenians even if there was a thing called “trust” in politics. So, Russia will protect Armenia for “geostratetgic” reasons, but it will ALSO make sure to have leverage over Armenia – by arming Baku!

    With that said it should also be said that whatever flaws that exist between Russia and Armenia today is primarily the result of Yerevan’s complimentary politics (Yerevan flirting with Russia’s enemies) and the total lack of Armenian lobbying efforts in Moscow. In other words, our Russophobia and political illiteracy will make things worst for Armenia and people like you are the only ones to be blamed.

    As John pointed out: These nuances of international relations and geopolitics have been pointed out by a number of people throughout this page yet you people are still not getting it. It’s amazing.

    • Harutik,

      Thank you for the first paragraph. I actually agree and understand this. I’ve always seen the arms sales play made by Russia as something for her benefit. And I’ve stated this in the past. The Russia benefits the most from unresolved Karabakh conflict is. The Russia is happy with the status quo and plays the two former soviet republics.

      And this actually does not fit the view some Russophiles have when they glorify Russia and look to her as a savior and make pro-Russian arguments. What I hear are pro-Russian apologies.

      But is this also good for Armenia? Please tell the citizens of Armenia and Arstakh that what Russia is doing is something they should not be worried about.

      Please also tell Sarkissian to stop trying to negotiate economic relations with the EU. Apparently he hasn’t learned his lesson and keeps courting the EU.

      I still hear pro-Russian arguments from your post rather than pro-Armenian.

      “I think a quick look at yourself and others here is enough to show you that Russians cannot trust Armenians even if there was a thing called “trust” in politics.”

      As an Armenian, I see things as “can we trust Russia”?

    • Harutik, as long as you don’t praise “mother Russia” and talk like you said “realpolitiks” most commentators in AW understand the location of Armenia in South Caucasus.

      Russia’s foreign policy is very complicated, for South Caucasus region. Russia don’t care who will own the Artsakh or Nakhichevan, as long as both Axerbaijan and Armenia stay as part of Russia’s influential zone.
      Russia’s domination in South Caucasus started, since the time of Russian Empire, when they defeated Persian domination over South Caucasus and Baku Khanat.

      Russia intensified her domination over newly independent Armenia after WW1, when Lenin and Uncle Joe, intentionally gave up Armenian lands to Turkey and Axerbaijan, in order to satisfy Turkic herds, where millions of them are surrounded mother Russia’s influential zone, who can pose a threat to Russia’s N. Caucasus region.

      Armenia must have a very careful and balanced policy with Russia and Western world in order to survive as a nation and a sovereign country, for now!

    • “So, Russia will protect Armenia for “geostratetgic” reasons, but it will ALSO make sure to have leverage over Armenia – by arming Baku!”

      And how do you feel about this? That’s what gets me posting here. Does this not worry you? Upset you even a bit?

  32. “It should also be said that whatever flaws that exist between Russia and Armenia today is primarily the result of Yerevan’s complimentary politics (Yerevan flirting with Russia’s enemies)[…]”

    My sentiments exactly.

    • Whenever there is inconvenient truth, there almost always emerge people who term it “unreliable ridiculous nonsense”. Yet, the truth remains that as The Times’ correspondent in Russia in 1917, Robert Wilton provided the first and most authoritative western eyewitness account of the monumental events that surrounded the so-called “Russian” revolution. Although Wilton’s credentials were impeccable and his status unchallenged, this book was undeservingly blacklisted, because he had the courage to report openly on the overwhelming number of Jews amongst the Bolshevik revolutionaries. That is, to state a plain, innocuous historical fact. Wilton’s facts were later confirmed by a prominent Russian-American mathematician and dissident Igor Shafarevich in his essay “Russophobia”. There he argued that great nations experience periods in their history when certain elitist groups that have values that differ from the values of the majority, gain upper hand in the society. In his opinion, one such elitist group in Russia during the Revolution was a group of intelligentsia dominated by Jews. Publication of “Russophobia” led to a request by the US National Academy of Sciences to Shafarevich to resign his membership, not because this renowned scholar had written “unreliable ridiculous nonsense”, but because he openly told the truth. Another important account that confirmed Wilton’s facts is the book “God’s people” by Russian-American author Gregory Klimov.

  33. (Random Armenian // March 27, 2015 at 3:51 pm //)
    { What does that have anything to do with my arguments? I’m not interested in what anyone falsely posting as Armenian has to say.}

    [Random] you wrote this in this thread: {“… To call a fellow Armenian Turkophile or Turkoglu because of a disagreement is your way of discrediting that person by suggesting they are not true Armenians like you. We’re all Armenian here Avery and we all find ourselves in these discussions because we care about the Armenian nation.”} (Random Armenian // March 15, 2015 at 8:28 pm //)

    I demonstrated with a concrete example that you are wrong. There are at least a couple of individuals who currently post under Armenian names here @AW who in fact are engaged in Anti-Armenian, pro-Turkish, pro-Turkbaijani disinformation, while pretending to be Armenian.
    Who not only do not care about the Armenian Nation, but quite the opposite.
    And what that has to do with your arguments is this:
    I do not believe you are a Turk or Turkbaijani.
    But something is very strange when someone posting under the handle [Random Armenian] goes out of his way to find something (video clip) that ‘proves’ Dr. Lemkin did not coin the word “Genocide” in large part based on the Armenian Genocide, for example (Sassounian thread).
    (just one example: there are many more).
    Why would an Armenian, any Armenian do that ? For what purpose ?
    I understand a Turkish sympathizer might do that, or a misguided Jewish person trying to elevate the significance (uniqueness) of the Jewish Holocaust by diminishing the significance of the Armenian Genocide might do that.
    But again: why would an _Armenian_ do that ?
    If there is something, let our enemies/adversaries expend the resources to find it: then we’ll counter it.
    But why would an Armenian cut his own throat ?
    Do you see why that sort of strange thing has something to do with your arguments ?

    (Random Armenian // March 28, 2015 at 1:04 am //)
    {“ And where exactly are my sympathies avery? I don’t believe you understand me at all.”}
    Based on having read your posts @AW (and elsewhere) for many years, I believe I understand you well enough.
    Our public posts, our advocacy, our biases are our calling cards – no matter what handle we use.

  34. “But something is very strange when someone posting under the handle [Random Armenian] goes out of his way to find something (video clip) that ‘proves’ Dr. Lemkin did not coin the word “Genocide” in large part based on the Armenian Genocide, for example (Sassounian thread).
    (just one example: there are many more).”

    I just came across this old post of yours which I missed and need to respond. Your claim is an outright lie. You get all upset quite often and end up making false and angry accusations at others. I was not claiming that Lemkin did not coin the word in part based on the Armenian genocide, but that I so often heard other fellow Armenians say “Lemkin coined the word *because* of the genocide”. To those unfamiliar with Lemkin and his work, it may sound like we Armenians are claiming that the word was coined because of the Armenian genocide, before the Holocaust. In fact I have personally heard at least on hye claim this. Serj Tankian, in a recent NPR interview, said that Lemkin coined the term in the 30’s. Which is not true.

    And in his article, Sassounian said “because of” not “in part”. And I’ve known full well Lemkin’s history with the Armenian Genocide before Sassounian wrote his article.

    My issue has always been about the phrasing we use when talking about the history of the word and how it relates to the Armenian Genocide. And from my personal experience, some actually have a misunderstanding on the history of the word.

    For you to claim otherwise is slander. And I stand by what I’ve said in this post.

    And I wanted to see the full video because what I’ve seen is that short edited clip. That is an important video and I wanted to see the whole thing. But somehow, for you, I was trying to undermine the Armenian cause.

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