Turkey Parliamentarians Argue over Who Killed Armenians

ANKARA, Turkey (A.W.)—The Grand National Assembly of Turkey (TGNA) witnessed an argument between parliamentarians recently over who killed the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire in 1915, various Turkish newspapers reported on Jan. 3.

“Your history is the history of massacres.
‘Your history is the history of massacres.’

“Your history is a history of massacres. You know very well how the grandparents of those who are struggling today were killed,” said Parliamentarian Sirri Sakik (Mush) from the pro-Kurdish Peace and Democracy Party (BDP), according to the Turkish newspaper Radikal.

In the ensuing argument, Parliamentarian Yusuf Halacoglu, from the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), addressed Kurdish members of the National Assembly, asking, “Then tell me frankly—and I, in turn, will show you all the documents—who killed the Armenians?”

Halacoglu is the former director of the Turkish Historical Society.

Other members of parliament pointed to the massacres committed against the Kurds, while parliamentarians from the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) argued that the Kurdish guerilla group PKK has committed atrocities in Turkey, while Turkish history is genocide-free.

Nurettin Canikli, the head of the AKP parliamentary group, said, “There is no massacre, genocide, and assimilation in this nation’s history.”


  1. Bowlshit,

    Turkey knows 100% Armenians were killed in masses in genocidal scale. As emmeline said ” they are desperate”. And in this desparation they are still questioning facts. How long and how much they are going to continue this political manuvering to relief themselves from accountability.

    I don’t assume it was Marsians. Kurds on their own, or bad Turks( most of whom were bad at the time and followed their beloved young turks’ commands).
    And what does it mean Armenians, when there is not genocide in it. The Diaspora is a larger chunk of Armenian poppulation and has been all throughout post Ottoman turkey. There is a reason for this scattering of our poppulatin away from homeland that stretched deep into Anatolia.

    Is this just a show to impress Armenians so that we have a better view of Turkish government. Or maybe they are pressured to put on a show to let Europe know they are worthy EU candidates and NATO members.

    Akhtamar is one church among many that Turkish government has kept intact and restored it. Thank you, but what about other churches.

    Besides the genocide, Turkey has a lot more to explain to particularly Armenians, and followed by Greeks and assyrians.

    Who killed the Armenians is not historian or politician’s job to decide. It is in the memory of the victims and also the rapists, killers, abusers, and criminals who for most part got away with it and thaught their decendants to be loyal to their deciet.

    • Alevi…

      Do you mind expanding on your comment please? What do you mean dream on?

      You don’t think your country is going to crumble within and yes the question of Genocide will be ONE LARGE CHUNK OF that destruction that your country will face and has been in denial almost 100 years..

      I say you are living in your dream world thinking this matter won’t come up and get a big roar once and for all..

    • The screen name Alevi Kemalist you have chosen is an oxymoron. Alevis were the victims of Kemalist nationalism. One half of you must hate the other half. It seems like you are the one dreaming because if you knew the real meaning of your screen name you would wake up from your dream and realize you saw a nightmare because you will have peed in your pants.

      I suggest you change your screen name to oxymoron instead because it is obvious you are a moron with the mental capacity of an ox.

  2. Listen carefully and you can hear the walls of decades of denial and deceit crumbling. Chaos rules as Turkey is splintered between those desperately in denial, those knowledgeable but fearful and the enlightened. Our day is on the horizon. Will we be ready?

  3. Dear compatriots!
    Our goal, the goal of Hay Tad, is not the recogition of the Genocide, but it is th eliberation of the occupied Homeland. In this case, the Turks and Turkey Kurds are combened against the Armenians. Not be glad for all these.

  4. Turkey is now like a little boy who wants to blame someone else for his wet pants in hopes that he won’t get spanked.

  5. Forget The Armenians…Our stories are facts…
    Let us go to other nations…and what they did…there
    Who killed the Arabs…
    Who hanged them
    Who send them to Marcin Fortress from Hijaz (now Saudi Arabia)
    by trains to be humiliated and die there…
    If we are Christian and they hated our Religion
    How about the Arabs who are core of their religion…
    and their language…before they changed to Latin…
    Arab literate told me that they wanted all Arabs
    to be turkified the word used ‘Tattrec’
    I heard all recently…!!!

  6. I just wrote on another thread here..Armenians must get organzied it is no use shoving in to eye of the Turco azeris ..We musst have BIG Funds and penetrate into int’l Media..AND KHOTEL THROUGH THIS MEDIA TO WORLD PUBLIC OUR GENOCIDE PRETTY MUCH THE JEWS DID!!!!!gO INT’L
    wE MUST HANDLE THE wORLD now!!!!
    By here and there small Armenian treis we shall get the World [public.Praise to ARF, Ra,mgavaragan to Chiurch ,BUT WE NEED MORE CAsh to throw our weight around. Enough being the poor in this connection.

  7. Is it good or bad for Armenians when Kurds and Turks bicker over who killed more of us?

    They’re both guilty, but the Kurds were following the orders of the CUP/Young Turks who master-minded the genocidal campaign to wipe out the Armenian, Greek and Assyrian Christians of Asia Minor in order to further their pan-turanic ambitions. Also the Kurds have made greater strides in coming to terms with this crime and offering apologies.

    It is amazing that the discussion has been brought to the seat of the Turkish government. Can’t wait to see what happens next.

  8. “There is no massacre, genocide, and assimilation in this nation’s history.”

    If no-one mentioned “assimilation” during the arguments, then this is a Freudian slip.

  9. Boyajian,

    In a sick and twisted way, this is progress. Because if I understand correctly, it used to be that one could not even say “there was no genocide”, because it would be making a reference to 1915.

  10. I can’t distinguish a caring Turks from the devious one. when a Tukish parlimant member is expressing his consern about who killed the Armenians, this indicative of Armenian killing took place 100%. But, his sympathy or care is questionable and his hypocracy is suspected to be his crime to cover up his ancestor’s crime.

    Kurds did play part in killing Christians in Anatolia. They did, because For Turkish high ranks Anatolia was suppose to be fully muslim nation. The Turks and Kurds conspired to kill Christians at the end of the 19th century to the end of WWI. But, Kurds weren’t able to systmaticly do so, because the genocide was initiated by Turks or kurds as Turkish solders or generals. They went after intellecuals in Istanbul ( Constantinople) first, then Took people out of their homes in rest of Ottoman controled regions to the march to their deaths or Turkishifications. These are not Kurdish acts, because Kurds weren’t the commanding high ranks of young turks, but they were equally motivated to kill, rape, and hurt Armenians.

    Questioning who killed Armenians can only be for political purposes:
    1. to shift the blame on Kurds, since Turkish government vs pkk is an ongoing problem for them.
    2. to appeal to EU and international community for their acknowledgment of Turkish efforts and their conciousness towards Armenian Genocide.
    3. to show to the world that Turkey is free speech and democratic nation, even due there are much more non-democratic elements in Turkish governing than democracy.
    4. Also, to lower the threat of another nation recognizing Armenian genocide.

    Real symptoms of desparation and panic among Turkish denialist who are the real hypocrites.

    • The EUSSR wants to control Turkey via Recep Tayyip Erdogan and wants to keep him in power so they can create a Sunni Extremeist bloc to use Turkey as a part of their globalist agenda. The EUSSR communists put AKP and BDP both into power so they could weaken and shrink Turkey into size and also put AKP into power, because they do not like Muslim countries being secular and progressive. Also AKP and BDP is collaborating to divide Turkey and secretly working with Armenian Dashnak racists. Don’t try to use Alevis for your racist agenda to brake up Turkey either because Alevis were the masterminds of the Turkish independence movement and many of Turkey’s founders were Alevis.

    • And YOU stop speaking on behalf of Alevis, Alevi Nationalist. You could try reading the post first as well, because Ed never said a word about alevis. And if Alevis were the masterminds of Turkish independence, how do you explain the systematic persecution against the Alevis by Turkey since the day Turkey became independent?? Let me answer for you: you can’t.

    • Alevi Nationalist,

      I think you should call yourself ultra-nationalist, among whome they brutally assasinated Hrandik and other crime against perhaps other Armenains, Greeks, etc…
      There is more truth to assuming Turkish government wants to fuse with Azerbaijan to form one unit nation than EUSSR and Armenia wanting to shrink Turkey into pieces.
      But, I guess your worries can’t rest yet, since Turkey has multiple nations who expect explaination from Turkish government, regardless of who is in power.
      Finally, about shrinking Turkey. Well, No one knows what will happen when gencide gets finally recognized by Turkey. Reparations are one thing, lands, Greek crime recognitions, and other messes made by Ottomans maybe the other events among others which will influence how much you must get prepared to worry. But, even if Turkey doesn’t shrink it will at least be a country with people who know the truth and know what to do to restore justice to Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians who suffered.

      Of course, many Armenians are hopping that we don’t have to cross border to visit Mt. Ararat and Van which were within our borders set in 1918 that the newly stablished Republic of Turkey dishonored and walked into until Armenain stopped them in the battle of Sardar Abad.

    • great.

      Armenians have infiltrated all levels of the Turkish state.
      You foreigners can never rest: you never know when someone standing behind you holding something, and who you thought is a Turk, turns out to be an Armenian.

      And Armenians never forget that Turks murdered their ancestors.
      And Armenians have long memories.

    • You must be the king of Sweden if the BDP deputy is an Armenian. But I know you can’t even be a janitor to a king because you are the Turkish village idiot. I am anxiously waiting for the day when you claim the Turkish president Gul’s father was Armenian because he visited Armenia a few years back. But I guess I have to wait until he does or says something anti-Turkish for the rumor to surface by a genius like you. Get back into your mental asylum cell and take your prescription drugs, the last dose you took seem to have worn out.

    • Maybe you think Sirri Sikik is a Dashnak???
      Add that to the false Turkish side of argument when the dialogue returns in your dreams.

    • Ararat,

      Abdullah Gül has already been “accused” of being Armenian by Turkish MP Canan Aritman. :)

      It was a couple of years ago, when the Turks had that “apology to Armenians” petition…

  11. It’s not who did the killing, it’s who ordered and directed it that’s important. It’s who benefited from it all. There are many dirty little secrets in Turkey….waiting to see the light of day. Sadly, Armenians have waiting way too long.

  12. Unfortunately for the Kurds, they have the Turkish stain on them for being coerced into the criminal act of genocide in the name of “Islamic solidarity”. It is no secret that the Kurds (once the ball of genocide was rolling) were motivated by the same thing as the Turks: the biggest theft and looting the region had ever seen in its history. Free goods of all kinds: free lands, free farms, free homes, free money, free jewelry, free gold, free furniture, free carpets, free clothing, even free women and children to raise in their image and steal all aspects of Armenian cultural identity and anything else you can think of with value.

    Observing the cultural achievements and successes of the Armenians, what their backwards (Sharia Islamic) nature could not accomplish for centuries, and their lustful jealousy of doing something about it, finally came to fruition on a fake Islamic call to action based not on religion, but premeditated, criminal intent disguised as so.

    However, unlike the Turks today, the Kurds are trying to come clean with their past with the Armenians. At least their leadership is. I can see this being a big problem for Turkey, but part of me can’t help but feel that we may also have problems with Kurds, should the Kurds achieve their objectives in forming their nation. Am I alone in feeling this way?

    Let us also acknowledge though that not all Kurds in the genocide were the same. Some of them actually helped us and also had a resistance against the genocide seeking Turks. The Kurds also know that some Armenians became Kurds and today are living as such.

  13. Out of curiosity, I just read the wikipedia entry on Armenian Genocide. I know that wikipedia is not the best source of info because of the bias of the contributors, but still … even if only 20% of what is there is true and the pictures … wow, I don’t know how Turks can continue their denial. And I can totally understand what we Azeris/Turks call the Armenian hatred. My God, if I was an Armenian I would not tire of getting at least some recognition or some sort of justify for all those people who died such horrible deaths. And the scar that tragedy must have left in the psyche of every Armenian, I dont think anything will ever heal it, even if Turkey admits it or pays blood money. Shame on Turkey for the conitnued denial. If I were them, I would even give up the Western Armenia back to them. I am not trying to kiss up to the Armenians but this stuff is just horrendous. And I can completely believe all those vicious attacks (burning of children etc), because I think such acts are quite possible in the MIddle Eastern mentality. In this sense, I think the Armenian Genocie was much more vicious and atrocious than the Holocaust.

    • Thanks Kareem: Kerim (as you write, which means Kind…Mercy-full)
      for your humanitarian feelings…I read your article many times…My grandmother use to cry every night till she sighed…Still we have no hate in our hearts…We are asking for our rights..I want the scientist to find the killing genes …not only genes of diseases…because there are many- as you can see every place- who likes to kill…!

      “I don’t know how Turks can continue their denial. And I can totally understand what we Azeris/Turks call the Armenian hatred. My God, if I was an Armenian I would not tire of getting at least some recognition or some sort of justify for all those people who died such horrible deaths. And the scar that tragedy must have left in the psyche of every Armenian, I dont think anything will ever heal it, even if Turkey admits it or pays blood money. Shame on Turkey for the conitnued denial. If I were them, I would even give up the Western Armenia back to them.”

  14. What we need is reparations. If the Jews got 40 Billion from Germany at 6 million people . And 1 over 1!/2 millionh Armenian killed is about 20 billion with interest . If not payed the Turks will lose trade at 3 or 4 billion a year not to be able to join the EU. Also Mt. Ararat should be like Jerusalem with the slope facing Armenia to go to Armenia for now. This is like the Berlin wall East and West Germany. Both will be on top of the Mountain. Also the US should press this like Berlin. Give Ararat part back to Armenia Turkey. Also Germany gave weapons to the Turks so any foreign aid should be given to Armenia. If these points are not met then they should go after there business and take there corporations as reperations. The Answer is Germany they gave them the weapons so now they should pay for their friend at the time. If this does not work. Then land like the American indians lost in US some was returned and carsino build and aid given. The Turks should give the Amenians some of the land in Metropolitans and half of Ararat and Armenia to use port falicities and return of churches for reparations. If one of these solutions are not met then they will lose in the long run. How can they join if some in EU most pay first.

  15. First… recognition of Armenian Genocide…

    Second… answer the question WHO ARE THE TURKS???
    Armenians & Greeks who have lost there identity, speak an Oghuz language, follow a red flag with white cresent and moon & worship an Arab god. That’s reason why we look so alike, and share the same genes (Mongol genes in Turkey counts for 6%). Turks need to wakeup & accept who they REALY ARE!!!!

    Third… liberate Armenian & Greek terratories.

    • well said vee,

      I recommend you a career in military or politics.
      We need desisive comanders and politicians to do the job.

    • With your logic, maybe the Eastern USA should be given to the French (because of the Louisiana Purchase stuff) and Mexico should take over California, Arizona, Nevada, Texas, Colorado, Utah, Oregon and Wyoming. The past is the past. Turkey is a diverse country and there are 70 million patriots who will protect the borders of Turkey, including Kurds, and even Rums and Hemsins. The biggest Turkish patriot was an Armenian named Edward Tashji. Dream on Racist Dashnaks. You plotted an Armenian Revolt/Rebellion in WW2 to get a huge chunk of land and that caused an expulsion in Anatolia. Learn from the quotes of Hovhannes Katchaznouni.

    • Rifat Celebi,

      And with your logic the Israel should not have been given to Jews, not that I am necessarily happy about it, but things happen in life. The Muslim world bleeds because the land was taken from Muslims otherwise they could not care less. Do not get me wrong I have a lot sympathy for Palestinians.

      And, with your logic the genocidal Turkish nation should be left alone to enjoy their plunder and commit new genocides against other minorities such as “mountain Turks” as Turks used to put it nicely. Turks are really dreaming to live in the Turkish paradise.

    • Vee, I agree with you totally …
      Without reading your letter I have commented on the genes…
      Armenians have many genes…so we are mixed as well
      some look Arabs …
      Some look persian
      some look European…
      And so on…
      The humanity comes first before any nationality …
      Thus nationality never defines genetics…
      I would like to elaborate on this subject more…!!!

    • Rifat,
      so if the Armenians were “traitors”, what was the crime of the Pontiff Greeks and the nearly 1 million Christian Assyrians? What did they do to deserve death and their property and wealth taken so Turks can enjoy it?

      also were the Bulgarians traitors. Were the people of Balkans traitors? how about all the middle eastern people who revolted against the Ottomans? Traitors as well?

      No Turk has any answer to that. It seems they haven’t come up with any official state sponsored denial or justification for that aspect of that genocidal plan.

  16. The fact is, any non-Turk is at risk in Turkey….not just Armenians…Kurds, Alevis and others come to mind. It doesn’t matter how they become ‘Turks’ or when…once someone self-identifies as Turkish, they can then benefit from that association, like a club and avoid the wrath of the nationalists who seemingly hate everyone who does not belong to their club. It’s quite a system – rather like the KKK – one that relies on hate, artificially created fear and unbounded racism to flourish. All brought to you by the CUP and its devoted descendants.

    • Alevis are Turkish. There is no difference between an Alevi or a Sunni, or even a Turkish Christian (whether Greek, Armenian, Syrian, Maronite, Protestant, etc.).
      Claiming that Alevis are not Turkish is like saying that Sephardics and Jews are totally seperate from each other, or Proestants and Irish are totally seperate from each other too. All people in the borders of Turkey have a right to defend their nation from internal and external threats, whether PKK Communist Terrorists, One Sided Racist Genocide Allegations, Greek Expansionist Megali Faschism or internal threats to Turkish National Soveirgnty such as the AKP (you should love AKP because they are helping to further your agenda), as well as the BDP parties. Shame on all Turkophobic Racist Greeks, Armenians, PKK and BDP terrorists, and also the AKP. Love live MHP, CHP and Turkey.

    • Kemal:

      My whole family are Alevis… my whole family happens to be ethnic Kurds as well. And we’re hardly an exception to the rule. So if you have no earthly idea to what it is you’re talking about, then don’t say anything. It’ll save both of us time.

    • Wow! A great example of a textbook, ideological, ultra-nationalist. This is the standard all nationalist rhetoric is judged by. It’s the uniquely Turkish nationalism that has been institutionalized from the top all the way down to the elementary school.

      “Turkish Christian”. That’s at the core of the confusion. Calling ethnic groups who predate the arrival of Turks in Asia Minor as Turks. You’re only fooling yourself when you try to retroactively relabel groups of people as Turks.

      Stating that what happened in 1915 as genocide is not racism. Overly-sensitive much?

    • RVDV,

      You can not be an Alevi because you are a kurd.
      Alevism is a Turkish belief.

      You can be a sunni, a shia , an atheist, a christian but not an Alevi.



  18. No, this is not about the rest of the world….the rest of the world knows full well what happened. This debate and discussion in Turkey is very important, because the first thing that has to happen is for Turkey to see itself honestly, as the perpetrator, as the guilty party. Until that happens, nothing is going to change. It is said that hindsight is 20/20, perfect vision, but that vision clearly is missing in the official Turkish view of itself. Once that changes, then any number of things can happen, again in small steps, as we inch towards 2015. Remember – as imporant as that date is for Armenians, it is even more significant for Turkey. It represents the year they began a century of murder, ethnic cleansing and racist policy towards its own citizens. It represents the elimination of 25% of its population and the collapse of its economy. However, another important component, especially for Armenians, is what will happen post-2015. Will things change enough or on a permanent level for the future? Will diasporan Armenians finally feel comfortable in their own homeland? Will their former homeland welcome them as descendants of that land? Will they be able to claim what is rightfully theirs? Over time, I believe this is all possible, especially if Turkey really wants to become part of the modern world in the fullest sense of the word. More than anyone, anywhere – Armenians deserve to have the right of return. Of course, for this to happen, Turkey will have to abandon many of its founding myths and lies, and accord credit to the many Armenians who helped to create Turkey over the last thousand years. Theirs is a shared legacy, whether they want to admit it or not. And Armenians finally must be part of that legacy, because they were instrumental players in it from the very beginning, unlike many who arrived in Turkey at a very late date and pretended to be part of that very old, established society. The fact is, that for 900 years, Armenians never gave up on Turkey…..Turkey gave up on Armenians, and they need to make amends. It is their responsibility. They need to make an effort. Now is the time, before they move against another non-Turkish people living under their rule.

  19. Hagop D; I agree with your post in its entirety. I would add that it is not enough for Kurds to now whimper “sorry.” Talk is cheap. Genuine repentance requires restitution. They can start by getting off my father’s land. Stop picking my apples and pears. Get their cattle out of my grandfather’s house. Clean the manure out of my grandmother’s tonir. That field of barley they want to harvest belongs to me. It comes from the original seed my father planted. Those lambs grazing out in the back pasture are mine. My grandmother tended the rams that sired them and the sheep that delivered them. Get off my property. Empty your pockets and return the hard earned gold you killed the women and children in my family for. I will then listen to your song of sorry, sorry, sorry. And the next time I go to walk on my own soil, don’t you dare again to threaten to call the police if I don’t get off the land soaked with my own blood. Sorry? Prove it.

    Yes, Hagop, “some Armenians became Kurds.” Well, on the surface at least. I have met a man whose Armenian ancestor, a one year old baby, was left in one of the villages the death caravan passed through, in hopes that the child would somehow survive. I know that the mother was killed when the caravan reached Diyarbakir. The child was raised as a Kurd, but was told that it was an Armenian. Yes, Hagop, “some Kurds know that some Armenians became Kurds…” Turks know this too. I saw a Turkish cookbook in a store and couldn’t stop laughing when I looked through it. Want authentic Armenian recipes? Buy a “Turkish” cookbook. They love our food. And why wouldn’t they? Many of them have Armenian grandmothers who fed them the food they grew up with. They know those Armenian grandmothers didn’t willingly go into the Pasha’s kitchen.

    Read Volkmar Gantzhorn’s seminal work Oriental Carpets, Taschen Publishers 1998. In this stunningly beautiful, large format book of over 500 pages, he does not hesitate to use the correct terminology Armenian Genocide, and he does not hesitate to say that the world needs to take another look at the ethnicity many carpets and their patterns are currently attributed to. He points out very carefully why many carpets previously considered Muslim, are actually Armenian. This same kind of analysis can be applied to many, if not most, of our culture. Not only do we want our real property back, but we want our culture properly attributed to us. Stop calling our art and architecture yours.

    Kurds killed almost all of my family. Another Kurd saved my father’s life. Turks and Bolsheviks then attempted to murder him. Kurds were more than willing puppets, but Turks held the puppet strings as they tried to wipe the stage clean for their next act. Now that the curtain is about to come down, neither of them wants to take a bow.

    • thanks for the info on carpets, Perouz: I will buy the book for sure.

      Here is one reviewer’s synopsis of the book (Jane in Milwaukee “Avid stitcher”):

      {In this huge 532 page book, the author moves chronologically from ancient times to the 18th century going overboard to designate virtually all carpet designs less than 2,000 years old as having Armenian and, thus, Christian, symbolism. While he acknowledges that carpets predate Christ, the traditional designs were fundamentally changed by the Armenians and Syrians to incorporate Christianity. He states that he has proved that the knotted pile carpet did not originate in the Turkmen region which has always been accepted, rather they were imported from the Armenians who largely influenced the entire world of the oriental carpet–including that in China during the Sung Dynasty–because Armenians “made up what was often a very significant part of the population” of all of Asia and Europe. He claims that illuminated manuscripts such as in the Book of Kells, and his own research showing centuries of migration, help establish this.}

      quite amazing.

    • Absolutely amazing Avery jan.. you are aboslutely right..

      Of course we all know the ultra nationalist and denialists would say EVEN after reading this book that everything they have is Turkish.. that is how padosh eres unenq iranq… but the evidence is clearly there and everywhere…

      guess they need a good eye doctor or better yet heart surgeon…

    • What have the Turks created/contributed in their entire history? Their expertise is conquer and theft and murder.

      Is there any other reason all of Europe deemd the Turks the Sick Man of Europe for no reason? They all know what they are.

  20. Let’s not forget…the Turks, using brute force and cunning, established and controlled one of the world’s largest and longest running empires in history. No small feat. But…they were smart in that they did it by using the natives to do all the hard work, to feed them and their soldiers, to build all their roads, bridges and buildings, to operate the financial system and to pay taxes to the sultan in order to keep the whole machine running. As I said, no small feat. Moreover, it lasted for 900 years….first with the Seljuks and then with the Ottomans. It was very successful as an imperial system, but that success came to a crashing end, with paranoia, military fiascos that depleted the treasury and a loss of sensible governance at all levels.

    The fact is, without Armenians, neither empire could have or would have survived for very long. Armenians – in huge numbers – not only worked for them, but they also blended in with them along the way and supported them. In exchange, Armenians got protection that lasted many centuries.

    But, to see the parliamentarians asking questions about who, exactly, killed the Armenians is almost comical, if it weren’t so damn serious. For them to act as if they don’t know really comes across as an evil joke….all they have to do is ask any Armenian, or just look in the mirror.

    • {” In exchange, Armenians got protection that lasted many centuries.”}

      Are you serious ?
      protection from whom ? from Turks themselves ?
      who besides Turks threatened the existence of Armenians in their own homeland ?
      who besides Turks exterminated Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians ?
      Are you back to glorifying the Ottoman Empire and Turkey like you used to ?
      Reminiscing about Ottoman Turkish paradise Armenians lived in ?
      Until, you know, those CUP Jooose from Salonika corrupted the good Turks and tricked them into exterminating Armenians: Right ?
      Was the 1895 massacre of 300,000 Armenians the work of non-Turks from Salonika also?
      How about the Adana massacre ?

      And the Ottoman Empire did not last 900 years: it lasted 600 years.
      The Roman Empire (West+East) lasted 1500 years.
      The Persian Empire lasted more than 1000 years.

      What’s the big deal about 600 ?

    • Actually, the Ottoman state became an empire with the capture of Byzantine Christian capital of Constantinople by Mehmed II in 1453. The mpire collapsed in 1922, when the monarchy in Turkey was abolished. It means the Ottoman empire existed only for 469 years.

      Karekin, are you listening?

    • I think you got it wrong. The question is if Armenians would have or could have survived as a nation and culture without Seljuks or Ottomans.

      You make it sound as if it was a massive crime against humanity that this medieval empire gave all its inhabitants a chance to rise to the highest levels in any endevour regardless of ethnic or religious background. A feat many colonial and supposedly advanced nations had failed to accomplish many centuries later.

      A crashing end? Decline and eventual demise of the Ottoman Empire took close to two centuries. I guess we have a different concept of a crash.

  21. Avery, it seems that you don’t know much about history. Since time immemorial, Armenia sat on the major faultlines of many opposing empires and suffered as a result. Whether it was Greece vs Persia, the Byzantium vs Persia, Byzantium vs the Seljuks, Mongol vs Arab, Ottoman vs Persian, or Russian vs Persian, Armenia always sat squarely in the middle and suffered terribly and was often divided as a result. The arrival of the Seljuks was actually welcomed by the Armenians as a way to alleviate Byzantine Greek oppression and rule and many Armenians, particularly generals in the Byzantine army shifted their allegiance as a way of protecting Armenia. This was not unusual. By the time the Ottomans established their rule, Armenia was once again a defeated buffer state split down the center, and shared with Persia. Lacking defensive armies of their own, the various Armenian ishkhans who arose after Cilician Armenia was devasted by the Mamluks, were subject to the whims of the larger powers and frequently cut deals in order to maintain their land holdings. It was only when overwhelming Ottoman power created a firm border with Persia that a pax-Ottomania came about and allowed Armenians to recover from centuries of truly devastating conquest. The idea of paying taxes to the sultan, in order to gain security, must have seemed like a pretty good idea at the time, since opposing them was not going to result in anything viable. Yes, the Ottomans were ruthless towards anyone opposing their rule, including younger brothers of the sultans, who were often murdered to eliminate competition. However, if you and your millet paid your taxes, you were allowed a decent amount of self-governance and a hands-off approach regarding commerce. You may not think 600 years is much of anything, but think again….it’s nothing to sneeze at, especially when Armenians have struggled so hard to even have tiny independent states that have had very short lifespans. This isn’t a glorification of things Ottoman, just a view of history that cannot be ignored, as Armenians not only survived, but prospered for much of the time they lived under Ottoman rule. Speaking of who else treated Armenians harshly, let’s not forget the Russians…the tzars weren’t so friendly and Stalin sent many to their deaths (including a relative of mine). So, before we let everyone off the hook….let’s be a bit more comprehensive.

  22. “The arrival of the Seljuks was actually welcomed by the Armenians as a way to alleviate Byzantine Greek oppression[…]”

    Karekin, STOP factual disinformation and historical and terminological distortion! There has never been “arrival” of Seljuks into Asia Minor. It was a sheer military intrusion into the area inhabited by several indigenous peoples by terrorizing nomadic Seljuk warriors. Stop already!

    If Armenians welcomed the “arrival” of these uncouth nomads, there would have been no Battle of Manzikert in 1071, in which Armenians fought the Seljuks side by side with the Byzantine Greek armies.

    The Byzantine “oppression”, mostly because of different interpretation of religious matters, fades comparing to the oppression of the Seljuk and Ottoman Turks. The consequences of the Turkish oppression we, Armenians, know firsthand. You should know, too!

  23. There were many counteracting forces working to control Armenia/Anatolia, including the Mongols, Turkmens and others. In the face of such devastation, intrigue and competition, Armenian kingdoms survived for several hundred years. However, we can’t ignore the fact that the Greeks were not treating Armenia very well…in fact, some Armenians ‘saw the anti-Byzantine Turks not as the agents of God sent to punish Armenians for their sins, but as an excellent vehicle opportunely available to themselves for vengeance against the Greeks. The contemporary non-Armenian sources in particular accuse the Armenians of siding with the Turks, deserting from the Byzantine armies sent to defend Armenia, and even joining the enemy. At the same time, let’s not forget that
    all those Seljuk warriors (in reality, not that many of them) arrived without wives or women, and that within one generation, their offspring were all half-Armenian, by necessity.

    Directly from Bedrosian: ‘Armenians, Greeks, and Georgians serving in the armies of the Shah-Armens and the sultans of Rum also received iqtas, originally conditional landholds that quickly became hereditary. The intermingling of cultures and institutions between the conquerors and the conquered was paralleled by intermarriage between the two peoples. It was through the gradual merging of newcomer and settled, the conversion to Islam of the previously Christian population, and the supplemental influx of invading Turkmens in the thirteen to fifteenth centuries that Asia Minor metamorphosed from being Greek, Armenian, and Christian to being Turkish and Muslim.

    The establishment of Muslim political overlordship over an Armenian Christian population in eastern Asia Minor did not immediately lead to widespread conversions to Islam. This was to occur in the twelfth and succeeding centuries. But during the time of the Seljuk invasions, Armenian Islamization seems to have been limited to those obliged to convert to save their lives and to the tens of thousands of Armenian women and children forcibly removed from their homes and sold on the slave markets of the Middle East. In this early period too, several influential Armenian nakharar women were sought after as brides by Seljuk rulers. Presumably many of them converted. Subsequently, after the establishment of Seljuk political control, other Armenians converted, be they young Armenian boys, gulams, absorbed into the Seljuk military schools, or the skilled Armenian bureaucrats and artisans who dominated many important positions within the various Turkish states and who figure prominently in Turkish epic literature. Martyrologies of the twelfth century also point to considerable voluntary conversion, prompted by the elevated status in the newly developing society converts could enjoy and especially by financial inducements. The result of this conversion, [250] forcible or voluntary, was the creation with time of a distinct group—almost excluded from the Armenian sources as “renegades” but apparently not yet fully accepted by their new Muslim coreligionists either, who in their writings usually style them as “Armenians.” Despite conversion by some, most Armenians remained true to their own distinctive form of Christianity. This fact, coupled with the reality of an Armenian majority in eastern Asia Minor, led to a certain “Armenization” of the Seljuks. Not only did Armenians of different faiths—Apostolic, Orthodox, Muslim—constitute the bulk of the population in eastern Asia Minor during the Seljuk domination, but fairly quickly an Armeno-Turkish community came into existence through intermarriage. Intermarriage occurred not only between the families of Armenian civil servants and Turkish lords but at the very pinnacle of the state. By the thirteenth century few Seljuk sultans of eastern Asia Minor lacked an Armenian, Georgian, or Greek parent or grandparent. Evidence even suggests that the great warlord and founder of the Danishmendid emirate, hero of the Turkish epic (the Danishmend-name), emir Malik Danishmend himself, was a Muslim Armenian. Judging from the many clearly Armenian names of his comrades-in-arms who waged holy war against the Byzantine Christian “infidels,” the same was true of his inner circle. Danishmendid coinage usually was stamped with the sign of the Cross and/or a bust of Christ. The hereditary rulers of the powerful emirate of Khlat in southern Armenia styled themselves Shah-i-Armen (Persian for “king of the Armenians”) and married Armenians. Armenization was not solely an ethnic process, but a cultural one as well. Seljuk architecture took some of its inspiration from Armenian architecture. In the eleventh to thirteenth centuries, many of the structures themselves were designed and built by Christian and Muslim Armenians.’

    Anyone can romanticize or glorify the past, but a non-sentimental view of history often reveals many subtle details that can easily be overlooked. Conquest is never pretty….quite the opposite, but after enduring hundreds of years of conquest by many different conquerors, I think Armenians devised a method of survival that kept them on their ancient land, no matter the ruler or overlord. The equation changed dramatically when the ‘Young Turks/CUP’ took control…at that point, Armenians’ fate was sealed, because they had what these people wanted most….the land as well as other riches, and they would stop at nothing to get it for themselves. No matter what happened in history before 1915, nothing compared to the scheming horror devised by the CUP, and that lasts until today.

    • Armenia is not Anatolia. Armenia historically has been part of Eastern Asia Minor and for so long that a plateau in the region is called the Armenian Highland.

      Whoever the counteracting forces working to control Armenia were, including the Mongols, Turkmens and others, they were outsiders, intruders. Byzantine Greeks were not.

      No one treats their neighbors very well and Byzantine Greeks were not an exception. But Byzantine Greeks had strong cultural, religious, military, even hereditary traditions with the Armenians. How many “oppressive” nations have you seen whose emperors (some sources suggest forty) were fully or half-Armenians? Byzantine Greeks did not make an indigenous people oppressed millet. Byzantine Greeks did not forcibly convert the Armenians to their denomination of Christianity. Byzantine Greeks did not abduct the Armenians, pillage their villages. Byzantine Greeks did not mass murder the Armenians. Byzantine Greeks never perpetrated genocide of Armenians.

      After fighting them at Manzikert, Armenians came to see the Seljuks as an intruding power that could counterbalance the Byzantine influence for Armenians’ advantage. But it doesn’t mean Armenians have “welcomed” the uncouth Seljuk nomadic warriors in the true sense of the word.

      You again use the verb “arrive” as in “let’s not forget that all those Seljuk warriors (in reality, not that many of them) arrived without wives or women”. Seljuks did not arrive. They intruded. Oxford Dictionaries defines to arrive as verb [no object] 1 reach a place at the end of a journey or a stage in a journey. Have Seljuk nomadic warriors traveled from Central Asian steppes as part of a journey?

      No, they were many of Seljuks intruding the area. At Manzikert, Alp Arslan’s army alone is said to have been some 70,000 men strong plus 30,000 cavalry from Aleppo and Mosul. “Arriving” to a place inhabited by other peoples without wives or women was part of the Seljuk nomadic habit. First, their men would gain new territories and pastures for their sheep and horses; and then their wives or women would join them. A typical nomadic behavior.

      And it was Byzantine Emperor Romanos IV Diogenes’ Turkic mercenaries who came into contact with their Seljuk kin and deserted, not Armenians. In “Byzantine armies, 886-1118”, author Ian Heath states that at Manzikert the Byzantine army’s right wing was almost immediately routed, thinking they were betrayed either by the Armenians or the army’s Turkish auxiliaries. “In fact”, Heath contends, “the Turks were the first to flee and they all managed to get away, while by contrast the Armenian auxiliaries remained loyal to the end, fighting for their occupied homeland.” How about this non-sentimental view of history?

      A passage from Bedrosian does nothing but confirmation of the fact that intermingling between the conquerors and the conquered does generally happen throughout centuries. Does it mean the conquered generally enjoy living under the conquerors?

      No conquest in the Armenian history brought devastation, genocidal extermination and the loss of ancestral homeland as the conquest of Sejluk/Ottoman Turks. This has nothing to do with romanticizing or glorifying the past. This is a historical fact.

      There can be “equation” between the conquerors and the conquered. Turkish oppression was always there in varying forms. And the “equation” didn’t change dramatically when the Young Turks/CUP took control. Sultan Abdul Hamid II the Damned was not a Young Turk, but he mass murdered in the most savage manner up to 300,000 Armenians in eastern provinces and another 30,000 in Adana. There, it DOES matter what happened in history before 1915 because it shows the pattern and continuity of Turkish savagery against the Armenians.

      Most Young Turks/CUP members were the descendants of the Seljuk and Ottoman Turks, were they not? Or they were aliens from Mars?

  24. Will Armenia work on a Interim Settlement with the US.. Can they get Ararat back, port facilities and the right of return. And aid of 20 billion for now from the EU and US. The. Indians and Mexicans live now in US. in different states. Most live in the West. They do have some grants. But they are allowed to live there right now. Can Turkey be a federation with the right of return for Armenians. Can Armenia even get there slope back for now on Ararat… Most of us want the whole thing. But this is what interim means. The final thing will be if Turkey becomes a federation and Kurds get there part and some land. And Armenia will will receive land and Ararat and some of the ports like the Kurds in the federation to live.If this is not done then there will always be war with Kurds and Armenians. This is why Russia has a federation. This needs to be duscussed with US leaders. Turkey needs all these leaders Kurds and Armenians to be part of the federation. Or some type of area if federations is not possible.. Then what we need is for Armenians and Kurds to live in regents with representives in parliament. And rights to Ararat as part of of the arrangement in the state.

  25. My above post has typographical erros.please forgive.Should read Princess,Spanish.This is not why I am reposting rther following up on subject matter.Somehwere abofe Karekin or another person-please forgive if I am wrong in this respect points out to the effect that Armenians go back to Wesstern Armenia,leaving the false impression or incognito-wise that WEGO LIVE THERE UNDER TURKISH FLAG/RULE!!!!
    My foot.What did we fight for then…in Sardarabad or else where against the conqueror Turk. We won a VERY PRECIOUS THING.INDEPENDENCE!!!!
    In light of a Republic and yet another smaller one ,NK.how can an honest Armenian think of going back to live under the G.Damned Turco Azeri rule////
    Please write clearly ..we either wait -as we have so far- or go to retake what was legitimately ours.Kurds also deserve to have theirs.Latter must give oin plenty of our lands back to us,upon which they have thrived…accounts are to be settled amicabley and logically and impartially.Sevres Treaty is there!!!!!to refer to .

  26. Now back to above issue/Pont has another concept of the INTERIM.Such interims ,are O.K. if offered by non-turkic people.We cannot ever again rely on their half promises or full promises.We want CASH-THAT YOU HINT AT*you deliberately mention EU,USA.What have they got to do in the Armenian Genoicde issue resolution, but to conform to accepting that it happened.Pay restitution!!!that shall come indeed if not directly*Turks never PAY, THEY TAKE IN.I have remedy to that,rather way to get CASH-read Blood money-form great Turkey.They receive EASY MONEY,especiallyu form Oil Transit duty around 2 billion dollar s per annum.Used to be 1/6 billion.Now then.The Euro*rather BP,read British petroleum and Us ESSo Mobila dn others , instead of passing oil pipe line via MUCH SHORTER ROUTE,read Armenia , by passed us….why..ask them.Now is the time -when what the settlement comes around that they set aside on ANNUAL BASIS,at least half of that EASY MONEY TO ARMENIA!!! Armenians.
    As to land issue THAT IS CLEARLY VISIBLE , WITNESS AGH TAMARA-AKHTAMAR AND LATELY ST. GIRAGOS.Latter through Kurdish intervention given back to us Armenians.yes indeed Turkish diplomacy and now their old ally Kurds is very much obvious the RAPPROCHMENT t h e i r w a y .
    Sugar coated and YAVASH YAVASH, by and by -your suggested INTERIM.but not from those people.HOWEVER THEY TURN OVER THE ,twist it,there is no escape FROM FULL RECOGNITION OF THE GENOCIDE THEIR ANCESTORS PERPETRATED ON US.The must admit like Willb Brandt did!!!!

  27. John – you seem to think every Armenian leader in the 11th C. made the right decision. Have you ever thought that they made choices based on many factors, most of which you’re probably unaware of? Sometimes, they had what we might think of as bad judgement, but that only became obvious much later on. Hindsight is usually 20-20, and as we look back at what happened to Armenia at that point in time, it seems that if any of them opted to side with the Seljuks vs the Greeks, they made a decision that turned sour about 1000 years later. Could they have known that? Unlikely. Don’t forget, all Christians were not created equal…and the Byzantine Greeks did not look favorably on Armenian christianity, neither did Latin/Roman Catholics, who saw Armenians as heretics. Armenia and Armenians did not have alot of good choices at that point in history, so I would prefer to think that they made decisions that were pragmatic for the moment, but did not stand the test of time.

  28. Hi Perouz, yes that is totally true about “talk is cheap”. I suspect that if they could get away with just a “sorry”, they would instantly recognize the genocide. But they know very well Armenia and Armenians have a very strong case for reparations and it scares them because they see the writing on the wall. Their hope is we will all assimilate and disappear before that time for reparations come. Although I know we will always exist, this thought is what worries me most.

    Sorry you had family massacred by Kurds and also saved at the same time, this story is similar to mine. My great grandfather also lost his family but ended up in a Kurdish village himself where he became very respected and loved subsequently. I recall reading someplace that the Kurds are also ancient and have been in the region for a long time, but that their main location was parts of Iran and Iraq and for grazing purposes would come into Armenia on certain seasons, then leave and we tolerated them. Then in recent history, the Turks brought large numbers of Kurds into western Armenia in the 17th or 18th century whereby their presence more or less got established. The thought that we once welcomed guests in our lands and today are not even there and those guests have taken over our lands bothers me greatly. Today once in a while I even come across videos or articles where Kurds claim Van and Ararat as “ancient Kurdistan” and even sing Armenian songs in Kurdish claiming Armenians got it from Kurds. That’s why I wonder in the back of my mind, if we solve the Turkish problem, whether we will next have a Kurdish one.

  29. What Mr. John and others wrote on this site…I read in Arabic news paper and the same thing in wikipredia…

    * In 1064 a large Seljuk Turkish army, headed by Sultan Alp Arslan, with the help of the Caucasian Georgians headed by King Bagrat, attacked Ani and after a siege of 25 days they captured the city and slaughtered its population. An account of the sack and massacres in Ani is given by the Arab historian
    Sibt ibn al-Gawzi, who quotes an eyewitness saying:

    ““The army entered the city, massacred its inhabitants, pillaged and burned it, leaving it in ruins and taking prisoner all those who remained alive . . . The dead bodies were so many that they blocked the streets; one could not go anywhere without stepping over them and the number of prisoners was not less than 50,000 souls. I was determined to enter city and see the destruction with my own eyes. I tried to find a street in which I would not have to walk over the corpses; but that was impossible.”

  30. True. Sylva…but, you might also want to read this:


    The fact is, Armenians were not in control of their own destiny much of the time and were living right on the key fault line of major conflict between a failing Byzantine Greek empire (that offered no protection to Armenia) and superior, invading Seljuk forces. None of us can imagine how devastating and horrific it would have been to be living there at that time.

    The fact that Armenians survived at all says alot about their ability to weather the fiercest storms with diplomacy and adaptation. In fact, later on, Levon and other Cilician Armenian rulers were able to extend the life of Armenia for two hundred more years by welcoming several hundred thousand refugees fleeing the Mongols, who were significantly worse and more devastating than the Seljuks. All in all, a terrible time for Armenians, but nowhere near as bad as the 20th C.

    As I said earlier, this ‘debate’ among Turkish parliamentarians is something of a joke….to pretend that they don’t know how the genocide happened or who was responsible is inconceivable. They know full well and if they truly don’t, there’s plenty of credible scholarship they can rely on, as well as a good number of knowledgable Armenians. Frankly, instead of a debate, they should just invite an Armenian scholar in to talk with them…I think they might learn alot more than by discussing it amongst themselves…which is like the blind leading the blind.

  31. @ Kemal Sezer…
    Your forefathers were either Armenian, Greek or Iranic (maybe even Sephardic Jew).
    SHAME ON YOU for forgetting your roots… speaking an Oghuz language & praying to an Arab God.

  32. Question: Who Killed Armenians in 1915 till today
    Answer is very simple: Who killed Hrant Dink in 2007, 6 years ago
    They genocided All Armenians in the same way…

    To Our Knight
    Hrant Dink
    (b.1954-killed by many Turkish bullets
    on his head, on his chest… January 19, 2007)
    He still lives in our hearts every day …specially today…

    To our Knight
    Who had no sword
    Only fingers on pens
    That carved on many

    He was born
    A martyr . . .
    Still alive
    With his astrocytes . . .
    Justice must prevail.


    From Poetry Collection…
    “Syndromes of Souls” March 2012

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