Def(e)ining Choice: Bruce Fein, the Turkish Lobby, and the Ron Paul Campaign

Bruce Fein is a familiar name in the Armenian American press, having time and again represented Turkish-American interests inside U.S. courtrooms in cases such as Schmidt vs. Krikorian; the Turkish Coalition of America (TCA) vs. the University of Minnesota; and Guenter Lewy vs. the Southern Poverty Law Center. He is a resident scholar at the TCA, and one of two leading attorneys at the Turkish American Legal Defense Fund (TALDF), established by the TCA in 2008. He had previously served as “adjunct scholar” and general counsel at the Assembly of Turkish American Associations (ATAA). His latest gig, however, is a position as senior legal advisor to Republican presidential contender Ron Paul. The appointment has surprised some who are aware of Ron Paul’s expressed distaste of “special interest” and lobby groups. However, Fein’s close ties to Ron Paul date back at least to the candidate’s 2008 campaign when Fein spoke at Paul’s “Rally for the Republic.”

Bruce Fein

An odd match

On Aug. 25, 2011, Fein was appointed senior legal advisor of the Ron Paul 2012 Presidential Campaign.

“Bruce Fein’s participation adds to our campaign’s already intellectual heft, enabling us to more broadly engage the conversation about constitutionality, civil liberties, and the dangers to national security of an increasingly interventionist foreign policy,” said campaign chairman Jesse Benton.

Ron Paul has been a prominent voice against interventionist foreign policy in all its manifestations, including the interference of “special interests” in U.S. foreign policy. As a Congressman, Paul criticized the existence of hyphenated Americans (i.e., Armenian-Americans and Turkish-Americans) as groups that sometimes pursue “special interests.” Back in 2008, Ron Paul laid out his reasoning for refusing to support the Armenian Genocide Resolution bill in a speech before the House Foreign Affairs Committee, finding “disadvantages” in “stirring the pot,” and advocating for neutrality.

“One of my long-term goals has always been to strive for eliminating hyphenated Americans. I don’t like the idea that we have so many groups that are hyphenated. So they have lobbyist groups that serve the interests of this group of Americans against another group of Americans. Then you have foreign lobbyists come in, and foreign governments, and representatives—one government over another. Truly, if we had a republic, we wouldn’t be dealing with this kind of a problem being brought up constantly over many, many years…” he said, arguing that the bill did not serve U.S. interests or the cause of peace.

Five years before that, in 2003, prior to the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Paul had blasted Turkey for “demanding billions for its cooperation with our war efforts,” which he described as “blackmail” and a “blatant shakedown [that] gives new meaning to the term ‘ally.’” (See http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul78.html)

Hence the surprise when Fein was welcomed into the Ron Paul camp. On top of his involvement with Turkish-American groups, Fein is one of two principals at the Lichfield Group, which is a public advocacy organization. His wife, Mathilde, is the other principal. Fein spends a significant portion of his professional life as an advocate for special interests.

FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds refers to Fein as a “foreign agent-lobbyist” and “the greatest threat to the Ron Paul camp to date,” in one of many articles she has written on the matter. After providing a list of Fein’s client states, banks, and corporations, she noted, “The Turkish clients paid Bruce Fein $500,000 in less than two years for him to represent their interests. How much is the Ron Paul campaign willing to pay Bruce Fein in order to surpass Turkey’s client value to Fein?”

Ron Paul

Edmonds, who is also the founder of the National Security Whistleblowers Coalition, retrieved deleted information from the Lichfield Group website, where Fein et al. advertise their “connections” with the Justice Department, State Department, and Central Intelligence Agency.

“Whether a client is a giant corporation handcuffed by ill-conceived United States government policies or a foreign government anxious to influence the decisions of Congress, the president, agencies, the judiciary, or state governments, the Lichfield Group is armed with the skills and contacts indispensable for success,” read the group’s site.

The Lichfield Group also offers “writing services” for newspaper op-eds and letters to the editor, and boasts “connections” with leading newspapers such as the New York Times, the Washington Times, and the Wall Street Journal.

As the TCA’s resident scholar, Fein has penned a number of articles attacking the veracity of the Armenian Genocide in publications such as the Huffington Post (“Recommendations for the Armenian Diaspora,” May 8, 2009; and “Lies, Damn Lies, and Armenian Deaths,” June 4, 2009), the Washington Times (“Tawdry Genocide Tale,” Sept. 2, 2007; and “Armenian Crime Amnesia?” Oct. 16, 2007), and the San Francisco Chronicle (“Armenian Genocide Measure is Misguided,” Oct. 21, 2007).

Ironically, Fein has also worked on behalf of a group that asserts that the Sri Lankan Tamil people were victims of genocide during the long and bloody civil war on the island nation of Sri Lanka.

The money trail

In discussing the TCA and Fein’s work with the coalition, it is necessary to introduce Turkish American entrepreneur Yalcin Ayasli, who invested a large sum of money in founding the TCA, the parent organization of the TALDF. Ayasli was the biggest individual political donor in the 2008 election cycle in the U.S., donating a whopping $424,050 to politicians in both the Democratic and Republican parties, reported the Nashua Telegraph in January 2011.

In 2010, Ayasli, who currently resides in Nashua, N.H., was the 12th most generous political donor in the country. The Telegraph noted that “while the Ayaslis’ donations have tipped toward Republicans recently, a closer look suggests their giving has nothing to do with partisan politics, but rather is aimed toward advancing Turkish-American relations and the interests and image of Turkey in the United States.”

According to the newspaper, “Yalcin Ayasli and groups he supports helped lead the countercharge against bringing the Armenian Genocide Resolution to a vote during the closing days of the 111th Congress.”

In 2007, Ayasli founded the TCA, and donated around $30 million to the organization from his Hittite Microwave Corporation stock. The company, which he founded in 1985 in Chelmsford, Mass., was reported to be worth more than 1.2 billion in 2008, with millions in revenue deriving from government defense contracts. Ayasli is also a founding trustee of the Turkish Cultural Foundation (TCF).

The Telegraph further reported that the TCA became “the third-largest sponsor of Congressional travel, spending $545,710 to send five members of Congress and 80 staffers to Turkey since May 2009.”

Up until recent months, the TCA, TALDF, and TCF shared an office suite at 1025 Connecticut Ave., which the TALDF still lists as its office headquarters in Washington, D.C. The TCA and TCF continue to share an office in Concord, Mass., at 48 Jonas Brown Circle, and an office in Washington, D.C., at 1510 H St. NW, Suite 900. Interestingly, all three organizations share the same Washington, D.C. phone and fax numbers.

According to a U.S. Embassy cable released by WikiLeaks, the TCA also “works closely” with the U.S. Azeris Network. The latter “calls on its members to email their government representatives to change U.S. policies regarding the Nagorno-Karabagh conflict,” wrote U.S. Embassy Charge d’Affaires Donald Lu from Baku, adding, “The organization also campaigns against any recognition on a state or federal level of the Armenian ‘genocide.’”

The Ayaslis have also supported Ohio’s Republican Congresswoman Jean Shmidt, who was challenged by Armenian American David Krikorian in Ohio’s second district congressional race in 2008. Schmidt later sued Krikorian for accusing her of accepting “blood money” from the “Turkish lobby.” Bruce Fein, along with his TALDF co-counsel David Saltzman, represented Schmidt in the suit. The House Ethics Committee determined that Fein and Salzman’s legal services, for which Schmidt was not billed and which ran to some $500,000, “constituted an impermissible gift.” The committee found that the TCA had been paying Fein and Saltzman’s legal fees. Schmidt was ordered to pay back the full amount. Schmidt was not reprimanded because of her “apparent lack of knowledge of this arrangement.”

***

Here’s a man at the center of a web of sticky special interests, now sitting by the side of a presidential candidate who expressly despises much of what Fein advocates. Ron Paul’s strict non-interventionist stance most likely suits the TCA: inaction only reinforces the status quo of denial and the suppression of justice for the Armenian Genocide. Ron Paul’s followers praise his record of consistent principled votes in Congress. But his association with Bruce Fein raises some serious questions.

 

Editor’s Note: We asked the Ron Paul 2012 Campaign for an explanation in regards to Fein’s appointment as senior legal advisor, given his track record. As of the publication of this writing, there has been no response.

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Nanore Barsoumian

Nanore Barsoumian was the editor of the Armenian Weekly from 2014 to 2016. She served as assistant editor of the Armenian Weekly from 2010 to 2014. Her writings focus on human rights, politics, poverty, and environmental and gender issues. She has reported from Armenia, Nagorno-Karabagh, Javakhk and Turkey. She earned her B.A. degree in Political Science and English and her M.A. in Conflict Resolution from the University of Massachusetts (Boston).
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@NanoreB

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RT @ChrisBohjalian: Fascinated by @NanoreB's seminar on identity at #ArtLinks. Interesting to see HOW we identify ourselves. Wish @realDona - 2 years ago

63 Comments

  1. It is disapointing,

    However a Paul administration would be non-interventionist, and American centric. In such an administration we come out ahead as America does not support the Hyes, most of our aid goes to our enemies. Highly unlikely Fein would be able to challenge Paul’s principal policy of no foreign aid and non interventionism. I am still going to vote for Paul, after all everyone else has lied to us. Paul says no foreign aid to anyone. We know what we will get is $0, but same for the Turks and Azerie’s.

    JK

    JK

    • To JK: This article is excellent evidence that you are wrong. Paul has no use for the Armenians, so we will get zero–but Fein will make sure that he supports the Turks and whoever else he favors. Wake Up!!

    • I think a lot of people here don’t fully understand what Ron Paul is about. Ron Paul believes that the U.S. should not meddle with other nations and their affairs because it mostly does harm. Ron Paul would want the U.S. to stay OUT of BOTH Turkey’s and Armenia’s affairs!

  2. Wow! You obsessive hatred of Turkey knows no bounds. Anyone who has a dealing wih anyone who has anything to do with anything related to Turkish interests is a target for attack … even someone with impeccable integrity such as Ron Paul.

    It is such a “high standard” to expect that any political expert would have no dealings whatsoever that someone out there cannot call lobbying.

    Or perhaps the real reason the Armenian diaspora dislikes Ron is because he would never let US be used as a tool for your vendetta against Turkey. He cares about America, not Armenia, Azerbaijan or Turkey. And as Americans, you should applaud him for that … unless you loyalties lie with more Armenia than American.

    • Kerim,

      Bruce Fein is a racist who belittles Armenians every chance he gets. There is nothing wrong or hateful about exposing to Paul or anyone else the garbage Mr. Fein advances, or the contradiction of relying upon someone who lives off the Turkish lobby, against which Mr. Paul claims to be aligned.

      Turkey and Azerbaijan lobby the offices of American members of Congress more than any other nation ex. Israel. The Armenians have truth, not the aerospace and defense industry. Do you suppose that if there were no Armenians in this country Turkey and Az would not lobby ? The visits of lobbyists and the client names are public record. Turkey and Az. are here for their own geopolicitcal reasons first and foremost. The Genocide of Christians is a sideshow to the TR.

      Instead of sniping at AW, heal your own countrymen and your state of racism.

    • With which country do your loyalties lie, Turk-oglu AzeriTurk Kerim ?
      What country are you a citizen of ?

      I am a US Citizen.
      I find it eminently patriotic American to recognize the Armenian Genocide.
      It is disloyal for a small group of Americans to hold American values hostage to the foreign Fascist Sate of Turkey that murdered its own subjects.

      It is eminently patriotic American to seek to throw disloyal Turkey out of NATO.
      During the Iraq Invasion supposed NATO ally Turkey refused to allow US to transit troops through its territory to attack Iraq from the North. This disloyal act of a supposed ally prolonged the war and cost hundreds of additional US casualties.

      It is disloyal for the Speaker of the House Hastert to thwart a vote by the majority Representatives of the people of these United States – of whom only a small percentage are of Armenian descent – for the Armenian Genocide resolution, which had majority support, after reportedly receiving a US$500,000 payment from Turks (as related by FBI intercept translator Sibel Edmonds, herself of AzeriTurk descent).

      There is a lot more, but this is enough for now.

  3. The Armenian Genocide . when i hear this i have a picture of Christians being shot as they try to go to mount ararat to pray. Is this what happened? as far as Denial. Ron Paul doesn’t like cover ups or denials. the only reason he isn’t speaking on this issue is because he is consumed by more pressing concerns for the United States like making sure the Armenian Americans who depend on this nation for Religious Freedom and Economic Security are protected from big bad inflation and international threats to the Sovereignty of the United States of America. If you ever meet Ron Paul drop a book title on him, he likes to read.

  4. Wasn’t Ron Paul the only one on Foreign Affairs committee that voted against bill calling Turkey to return Christian Churches? Hmm…which advisor had told him to vote against it??

  5. Kerim
    Be fair. Our “obsession” with Turkey can never overdoe her hysteria with everything connected to AG. Turkey goes at much more length at lobbying for her denialist goals.
    Further, I am not an American, but exposing (American) denialsts of a human tragedy such as Genocide has nothing to do with one’s citizenship. It is in the first place a moral and human issue of universal nature. And as I have understood Americans think of their country as the defender of moral and human values.

  6. Ron Paul should quit,he has commited Hari Kari.When you hire a shyster lawyer,who should have been disbared years ago for representing subversive groups, in the past…One client-the gooble goobles.

  7. Arshag, just because Turkey is obsessed with AG denial, it does not necessarily mean the Armenians are not obsessed with its affirmation. I do by the way think AG happened. And I think Turkey overall would do acknowledge the same … IF the cost of doing so was prohibitive.

    Turks are not stupid (contrary to what some of your compatriots might think). Armenians have made it clear that AG recognition is the first step towards an astronimical compensation, and, territorial claims, through international court.

    Germany did go through all these consequences with the Jewish Genocide … but in their case they had the luxuary of being able to make someone else pay for the land part of the deal (i.e., Palestenians). Where is Turkey going to put the Armenians?

    Of course, if I was an Armenian, I would do what you guys are doing. And you too be fair … What would you do if you were a Turk? As the way the things have been laid out, this is not ONLY a moral issue for Turks, but a very much practical issue: do we want to go almost bankrupt AND risk our territorial integrity? What country on Earth would do that? Did Germany give up its own land to make it right with the Jews?

    So there stands the affairs. A classical game-theory case of the two parties stuck in a non-collaborative disequilibrium.

  8. Democrats are utterly terrified Obama will have to run against Paul in the general election. Let’s face it, those other three guys ARE Obama, with a little tinkering around the edges.

    The only problem Paul has is marginalization and constant media attacks. This is perfectly understandable because papers and tv stations aren’t owned by some guy now – they’re owned by 6 giant corporations that control over 90% of the airwaves and big chunks of the internet. Look at the comments on any story – you’ll see the Paul support there.

    What if this is the last chance you’ll have to prevent the collapse of the dollar? Our infrastructure can’t function without oil and oil is denominated now in dollars. What happens when people stop accepting them? No oil means no diesel. No diesel means no trucking. No trucking means no FOOD – most supermarkets carry only 3 days’ inventory. Let’s say it only takes a couple months to find a new supply, what do you think will happen in a city with 10 million starving people, people who’ve never gone hungry a day in their lives? Armageddon.

  9. Avery says: “I am a US Citizen. I find it eminently patriotic American to recognize the Armenian Genocide.”

    Here is a question. Suppose you told ALL Americans the whole story, including the fact that recognizing the Armenian Genocide with the terms required by Armenian diaspora will make US national security interests suffer, and told them the events in question happened 100 years ago. Do you really really think that an Average American will say, yes, let’s POTENTIALLY endager our natioanl interests?

    Also, who do you think is a better advocate of American interests? US State Department, the President, et all, or a small diaspora with an ax to grind? All the leading newspapers of the US agree with me (and the US government) too. New York Times, Washingont Post, Wall Street Journal … they all have recently specifically called out the Armenians on this issue … for putting their “parochial” (WSJ) interests above US interests.

    Avery, it helps to be skeptical towards one’s mindset once in a while … Do you really thing that the aforementioned all are wrong, and that you, who just happen to be someone with stakes, got it right: about the patriotism vis a vis AG recognition? Or you realy think Azeris have bougth all of these US newspapers and US government? If we Azeris are that powerful, why not have these same sources write and advocate Karabak’s return to Azerbaijan? Hell, they critisize Azerbaijan all the time on human rights etc all the time. Don’t you think you argument about the Azeri influence does not compute? Or is it possible, just possible, that WSJ, WP, and NYT got it right, i.e., it is unpatriotic of you and a handful NJ/CA Senators to push the ARmenian agenda at the expsnse of the US one?

    By the way, on a different note, what is the deal with you addresssing me Turk-oglu AzeriTurk Kerim? Would it not suffice to call me just Kerim, Mr. Armenian Hay-son Blah Blah Avery? Can you please explain why you resort to such silly rhetoric?

    • Turk-oglu AzerTurk Kerim-bey:

      On several occasions you have corrected people on these pages by reminding them that you are not a ‘Turk’ but an ‘Azeri’ (Yes ?)

      To me, there is no such ethnos as ‘Azeri’: By your advocacy and strong Anti-Armenian postings I surmised you are an Azeri Turk. Are you not ? Or you may be one of the minorities residing in Azerbaijan ? (Talish, Udin, Lezgin, Zakhor, Luitsi, Avar, Kurd).

      Frequently people post under amorphous identities to hide their true ethnicity/nationality, and proceed with pro-Turkish or pro-AzeriTurk advocacy under a false-flag. (i.e. giving the impression they are say neutral Scandinavians, but support Turks because…….)
      Your constant involvement in matters between Armenians and Turks, such the AG, and the State of Turkey – which should not concern an Azeri at all – may confuse readers who are not familiar with who you are. So, I remind them.

      As to calling me “Mr. Armenian Hye-son Avery”: you are most welcome to do so. I am not ashamed of my ancestry, as you apparently are.
      I am a US Citizen. I am a son of Armenian parents. Proudly so on both accounts.

      As to WSJ, WP, and NYT: no it is not possible they got it right. I am quite familiar how things really work in the US.
      NYT also advocated for the illegal invasion of Iraq. Did you know that ? An invasion that has cost about 4,500 American dead, 10s of thousands young Americans wounded, some crippled, some alive with no mind, and US$1 Trillion (with a T), 100s of thousands of innocent Iraqi lives, increased hatred of Americans in the Middle East, and on, and on. A totally illegal and useless war that was harmful to America’s interests: facts today prove it beyond doubt.
      Corporate media in the USA advocates for corporate interests, which more often than not are contrary to the interests of the Country of USA and the American people.
      Corporations have no loyalty to any country. Corporations’ loyalty is only to themselves.
      US Corporation Halliburton, which profited enormously from the Iraq war, recently moved its headquarters to Dubai – to avoid paying US corporate tax.
      They made money off of the blood of American young men, but want to enjoy their loot IRS tax-free.

    • BTW Kerim:

      do you know how ‘John’ came to be known as ‘John the Turk’ ?
      Months ago he used to post under ‘John’ with the same pro-Turk advocacy as now, except milder.
      He gave the impression that he was a neutral ‘American’, but who saw that Turks were right and Armenians were wrong.

      Eventually some of us, including me, started addressing him as ‘John the Turk’ to let him know that the jig was up.
      Apparently he liked the name and adopted it.

  10. Avery,

    While I disagree with Kerim on issues of substance, and also protest the essentialist things he says about Armenians, he raises an issue about your style that is correct.

    It is silly to add the suffix oglu to people’s names and nicks. Comes off as an intended insult, but its just a suffix. There are Christians with the suffix. You imply that you think being a Turk or an Azeri is something to be ashamed of. Deal with his ideas, which I think you can do admirably, but not his identity – its silly. Being an Azeri is not a loathsome disease.

    Unlike you, I have friends who grew up in Azerbaijan. They paid a very heavy price you and I did not pay. Their parents and siblings were murdered by state-sanctoned Azeri mobs. Some fought as well. They don’t hate Azeris the way your prose implies you do.

    Where do remarks that Azeris are not authentic take us? I know you can point to scholarship on this point, but the destination is racism just the same. Ethnicities change over time. 600 years ago there were no Mestizo peoples in the Americas. Neither were there American Blacks, whose genetic endowment springs from Africa, Europe, and Native peoples. Shall we say they are not real, and where does this conclusion take us?

    The most anti-British IRA members tend to come not from Derry, but Southie. Give it a rest. There is nothing in our cause which requires racism, and your habitual oglutizing of the poster nicks has the rancid smell of racism to it.

    • when you stop calling “many Turks” Nazis, I may stop adding the patently non-racist, proper suffix ‘-oglu.’

      Here are the official names of several prominent Azeris:

      Heydar Alirza oglu Aliyev,
      Ilham Heydar oglu Aliyev,
      Abulfaz Qadirqulu oglu Aliyev

      And a couple of Turk politicians.:

      Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu
      Fatma Ekenoğlu

      I would say calling “many Turks” Nazis has more of a rancid smell of racism to it than me adding the suffix -oglu to someone’s name. Don’t you ?

    • To JDA,

      I have to disagree with some of your ideas and also make some clarifications. It is fair to state that 600 years ago this and that race did not exist and today they have a right to, however let’s take your remark in context. You admit that the Azeri nationality is a newly created nationality which has a right to exist. Now answer honestly, does the “Azeri” feel the same way? The answer is not only NO, but the “Azeri” takes it further by claiming that Armenia is “ancient historic Azeri land”, Armenians never existed, Armenia never existed and a bunch of other ideas meant to erase Armenians from their historic Armenian homeland.

      In contrast can you name any other newly created nationality in this category? The Mestizos are on their own lands because that’s where their nationality formed. The original inhabitants assimilated with others for this, and today the original inhabitants do not exist as a distinct group and pointing out to us that the Mesizos are violating their rights and vice versa. And today do American Blacks claim the USA is ancient Africa and that the whites do not belong in the USA, etc?

      In addition to this consider also, the pogroms the Armenians suffered at the hands of Azeris were indeed state sponsored, but they were also SELF-SPONSORED by many of the “lone-wolf” delusional nationalist Azeris – the same ones that exist today, many of whom comment on Armenian sites.

      Finally there is one important piece of information that many people do not understand that we need to fully be aware of:

      **Azerbaijan exists for the sole purpose of destroying Armenia.**

      Think about this very carefully the next time you want to be a defender for the so-called “Azeris”.

  11. Avery says: “To me, there is no such ethnos as ‘Azeri’”

    For argument’s sake, let’s ingore the historical context of it all, and just look at this statement on logical grounds alone. Implicitly, what you are saying is this: “I think X did not exist 500 years ago. Therefore I think X does not exist today.” How fallacious! And silly! The fact today is there is such a nation called Azeri. Whether or not the ancestors of the peple who are Azeri today were called Azeri 500 years ago is irrelevant to whether or not there is such a nation called Azeri. So you may choose to irrationally believe whatever you choose to believe, but the reality does not changer thereby to fit your silly worldview.

    As for you saying: “As to calling me “Mr. Armenian Hye-son Avery”: you are most welcome to do so. I am not ashamed of my ancestry, as you apparently are.”

    So predictable. I smile as I typed my original message, knowing you would go in this direction. Again, just look at the logical skeleton of what you are saying. You are adding a bunch of appelations to a noun in a manner that is not clear in its purpose. So I asked for clarification. With your logic, suppose a carpenter comes to your home to fix your floor, and you keep referring to him “Mr. Middle Aged American Resident with Red Hair of about 6 fee tall John.” Naturally, he would be puzzled with your verbosity and ask for an explanation. Would you therefore deduce from his statement that he is ashamed of being an American resident or red-haired? Of course not. So what do you cohclude from what I said that I am ashamed of being Azeri? I was just simply asking you to explain your silly rhetoric. See the logical fallacy in your thinking.

    The thing is I knew very well why you wrote it. I just wanted to bring it out, your hatred of Azeri (the pinnacle of ethnic hatred is the belief that the other’s existence is fake and therefore unjustified). I think most American would think of your as a typical bigot. It is clear that you called me “Azeri-oglu … Kerim” because you think being an Azeri is essentially a cuss word. So deep down in your mind, you were essentially trying to “rub it in my face”, mark me as the Other to be hated. Your thinking is so transparently hateful and silly.

    Fortunately, there are many Armenians here whose thinking is much more nuanced and moderate. And here is a guess I have about you. Of course, I dont know you, and it is not a personal attack, but just a guess. You are indeed an Armenian American. You are probably in your late teens, but definetely less than 25. You have probably struggled with fitting in, as you look different form your fellow American, and you eat “weird” food at home. So here then is a community that accepts you as you are. And you are doing everything to fortify your membership in the group, trying to out-Armenian everybody, never even admitting an iota of possibility that you side might have gotten something wrong. Your Armenianness is absolute. And it is the people like because of whom ethnic conflicts (and not just ours) are so hard to resolve. There are many people like you on our Azeri side too, if not more. And it is the extremists like you who drown the voices of the moderates, who usually have lives and better things to do with them. Which reminds me, I gotta go.

    • your psychological analysis skills are less impressive than your knowledge of satellites.

      Reference a link that shows a country called ‘Azerbaijan’ North of the Arax river prior to 1918, then we can discuss what an Azeri is or is not.
      Make sure you don’t confuse the area with Northern Iranian provinces called ‘Azarbaijan’, South of the Arax river, populated by Turkic speaking Iranians.

    • Kerim:

      Here is another sample of your poor psychoanalytical skills:

      {Kerim November 8, 2011 {_____, Avery,
      Another upfront disclaimer: I actually do believe that is is likely that the Turks committed a Genocide against you. In that sense, the Turks owe us Azeris a big time. Having pissed off and wronged you so much, they have left you hating antyhing that has anything to do with the Turks. And since Turkey is way to strong fo you to tackle, you have transferred your hatred to the Azeris, even though we had nothing to do with the 1915 events. For you, it suffices that we speak a similar language and that we all “descended” from some Mongolian “barbarians.” Pretty childish, I think. In any event, Turkey owes it to us: they should never open the border with Armenia, pretending that the fight between Armenia and Azerbaijan has nothing to do with them.}}

      https://armenianweekly.com/2011/11/01/sassounian-azerbaijan-wins-security-council-seat-while-armenians-remain-idle/

      Apparently we supposedly hate Azeris (not) because of 1915. Obviously none of the following played any role in our desire not to give Azerbaijan another opportunity to ethnically cleanse and exterminate Armenians:

      1988 Sumgait massacre
      1988 Kirovabad massacre
      1990 Baku massacre
      1991 “Operation Koltso” (combined Azeri OMON & Soviet operation)
      1992 Maragha Massacre
      1992 Stepanakert war crime: months long bombardment by Grads and artillery.
      City leveled. Estimated 2000 civilians killed. Thousands more wounded.
      And of course the military invasion of Nagorno Karabagh Republic by Azeris which cost thousands of Armenian lives.

  12. Azerbaijan , Kazakistan, Kyirgizistan, Turkmenistan, Magyaristan, Turkish republic of Cyprus , Altai , Uzbekistan , Turkey, East Turkistan and some small countries i can not remember their names..

    We are all TURAN.
    We are all Turk.
    We are all brothers …

  13. Speak for yourself, Necati. I am a Turk but I am NOT your ‘brother’. For me, the most important thing is being HUMAN. I don’t like people who value things on ethnicity/race/religion grounds.

    I hope Turkey will one day (in the near future, I hope) stop denying the genocide and apologise.

  14. Kerim
    First of all, I am happy to hear from you that you acknowledge the fact of Genocide of Armenians. I think that is one important step forward. That could be a point of departure for further discussions. Whether or not the Turkish government will eventually do that and if so when, no one can say anything on that with certainty.
    Secondly, I may also not agree with all what my other Armenian compatriots say about this or that issue. Although, many historians would put the establishment of Azerbaijan in 1920-21 around the time of its incorporation in the Soviet Union, I will not dispute that today there is an Azerbaijani nation, which is distinct from Turkey, though their interests quite often coincide, especially where Armenia and Armenians are concerned. I have myself respectable Azeri friends and acquaintances – not denialist of course – with whom I have very normal human contact and I happy for that. So, I think there is no sense to engage in discussing the ethnicity of peoples or declare one above the other as this lunatic Nejati seems to enjoy to do.
    The question of compensation understandably weighs heavily for the Turkish side, but I don’t think that is the real hurdle to recognition. My impression is that it’s a matter of the so-called “national honour”, that is, an obsessive obstinacy to acknowledge your wrong as if that would make you less worthy person. Whereas, I believe that would enhance the stature of the country and facilitate the finding of mutually-agreed solutions to the existing issues. If on any lucky day, Turkey should honestly make such a declaration, I think the overal atmosphere and relations would not be that of today. They would have been changed dramatically. No one can describe at this juncture how the circumstances then would be, but there would definitely be less animosity and less mutual hatred. And I think both parties will reap the rewards of the reduced tension. After all, Armenians do not need war, but rather peace and stability to be able to grow and prosper.
    I hope you will acknowlede that to reach at such a desirable situation, it is Turkey who should take the first step.

  15. JDA, Leave Avery alone.

    Maybe its you that doesn’t get it? Understand this well: turks/azeri will NEVER BE YOUR FRIEND. They are opportunists par extraordinaire and only understand the big stick..They are predator mentality and master race bred.. Two very dangerous combination’s. If given half a chance they will continue the genocide, They do so now still with the constant denial of mass murder and theft of Armenian property. They do so now with demonizing their Armenian victims in their culture and education. They do so now with current closed borders. They do so now with the mentality that is ever evident in these comments. They do so now with bellicose war threats. .As far as im concerned the genocide continues today..

    Its mentality like your that got us killed in the first place. No one here needs to be nice to any of them. And my and Avery’s attitude would have saved many Armenians from sheep slaughter in 1915.

    • John,

      Your sentiment is passionate and understandable, but its pointed at the wrong person (me) for the wrong reasons.

      Avery can defend himself, and is hardly the official defender of the Armenian people. He’s not an Asbed, and this isn’t Avarayr.

      The poster Kerim has said some offensive things, but he has also condemned the anti-Armenian racists in his society, and he has admitted the Genocide. That’s a start.

      Independent of his post, i am offended by resort to silly names (oglu Bey, Avery’s
      favorite dis-honorifics) because they make Avery and us, look childish.

      We are a Christian people with ancient and modern intellectuals and are humane people. I am uncomfortable with being represented this way.

      My posts are not giving away downtown Martuni, now are they?

    • John: On the flip side, it is mentality like yours that will ensure that keeps the hate alive. Worldwide there are upwards of 70 to 80 million Turkish people. Labeling all of us blood thirsty savages that would continue genocide if given the chance is ridiculous. I have publicly apologized on the behalf of my ancestors several times on this forum. I have expressed how shameful it is that we continue to deny it. It’s not my fault I was born in Turkey, It’s not my fault my ancestors committed genocide against yours. All I can do is apologize for it and hope that people will accept it. So go ahead, be completely intolerant of Turks and Azeris- I’d like to see how far that path will take you. Like it or not we are your neighbors, and that’s just something you have to grow up and deal with.

  16. To Arshag,

    you are correct, pride and obstinacy play a role too in Turkish denials of AG. But I think at the state level, the Turkish leaders could get over it if they thought that the practical aspects of admitting the Genocide were reasonable. It is always a good idea not to underestimate your opponent. The Turks know Armenians, because they know themselves (i.e., Middle Eastern mentality). They know very well that this drive for AG recognition is not just for a strive for an acknowledgement of a historical wrong, plus some reasonable compensation etc. They know that this drive is also an act of vendetta, to avenge the death of your ancestors. This is a typical Middle Eastern mentality. And no one can blame you for that. If my grandfather told me stories of grave atrocities, I too would try to avenge the wrong. But … again … put yourself in the Turkish side. Would you play into the hands of someone who, for justifiable reasons, is being your enemey?

    —————
    To Avery,

    When you mention 1918 as the birth of Azerbaijan, you are equivocating between the notions of nationhood and statehood. Yes, Azerbaijan became independent that year, as did Armenia (for the first time in almost 1000 years). Before 1918, Azerbaijan was part of Russia, and it was made up of different states called Khanlig, one of which was the Karabak khanlig, whose Azeri king was the guy who signed in earler 1800s an agreement to give the Karabak kingdom rule to Russian, who then brought it a bunch of Armenians from Iran to resettle there. Anyways.

    As for your enumration of massacres, it is a little bit of a stretch, as you seem to label every and all death of Armenians as massacres. As for Azeri massacres, why should I even go there? You dont think we exist anyways, That which does not exist is ok to kill.

    ——————-

    To JDA,

    Thanks for being a voice of reason. I am not sure when and how you have ended up calling a Turk a racist or Nazi, but I am sure a Turk, like anyone else, is capable of being a racist. But that of course, as you know, is not that the same thing as using ‘Turk’ ITSELF as a cuss word, which is something Avery has been caught doing.

    • Kerim, I an one Armenian who is not interested in vengeance. I am sure there are many like me. I don’t want Turks to suffer. What I want is justice. Don’t you believe that Turkey must pay for what it did to Armenians? Do you think that justice should cost Turkey nothing? The shape this justice will take is yet to be determined, but it begins with Turkey officially recognizing and apologizing for what happened. Those Turks living today are not guilty of the crime of genocide. I don’t hold them responsible for it and I don’t hate them. But the denial and distorted history lessons must end. I hold them responsible for this.

      The Armenian Azeri conflict is a separate issue and should be handled as such. One case is about justice for a genocide and compensation for unlawful deaths and property seizure. The other is about the right of self-determination and self-defense. They are best solved as separate conflicts. The fact that Turks and Azeris make statements like “two lands, one nation” when referring to each other only inflames the situation and turns the conflicts into Turkic people against Armenians.

  17. John, very well said, we must not forget our history and always be ready to defend ourselves form the descendents of Genghis Khan.

  18. Sorry if I sound insensitive to the issue, but I see that almost 75% off all the news are related to AG and how Turks are bad and evil. I am a Turk. I didn’t do anything against Armenians, neither my parents nor my grand parents, but still I have the impression that hating Turks is what binds Armenians.

    I understand that it is a tragedy that affected almost all Armenians but 100 years passed since. I personally don’t see any problems of apologizing the deportation of Armenians but I would not agree on any indemnity that would jeopardize the territorial integrity or the economy of Turkey. I see that many people are counting on this indemnity to solve all problems in Armenia. I think they shouldn’t because, honestly, that will not happen.

    I wonder if the Armenians living abroad are doing more harm to Armenia that Turkish government since they do not share a border with Turkey. I hope that we would look into the future, we are neighbors and I want to have good relations with my neighbors.

    • Kako, I don’t want myself, my children and even you, to live in a world where a government can get away with wiping out ‘an undesirable group’ and after 100 years, it is considered ‘too long ago’ to deserve justice. The individuals who carried out the crimes against Armenians are gone but the nation/government of the Republic of Turkey benefited from these crimes by the confiscation of all that Armenians were forced to leave behind. Today, the descendants of those who committed these crimes are carrying out a ‘white genocide’ against the descendants of the victims by denying history and depriving Armenians of their rightful heritage. Modern Turkey is not an innocent party in this case. The crime is not over, it has only morphed into a more subtle, but no less devastating form of annihilation.

      I don’t think Turks are bad or evil, but your government’s policy of genocide denial and misinformation is. I can’t see it any other way.

  19. Averyian

    “”Eventually some of us, including me, started addressing him as ‘John the Turk’ to let him know that the jig was up.
    Apparently he liked the name and adopted it.””

    You lied as usual. I was forced to use my bloody name by you Armenians

  20. anti racist,

    check your blood..there must be contamination..maybe a little armenian ? ask your grand mother again..

  21. {Independent of his post, i am offended by resort to silly names (oglu Bey, Avery’s favorite dis-honorifics) because they make Avery and us, look childish.} writes my pal jda.

    Apparently in the confused world ‘jda’ lives in “oglu” and “Bey” are considered dis-honorific: Au contrair, mon ami.

    BEY

    {Turkish honorifics generally follow the first name, especially if they refer to gender or particular social statuses (e.g. Name Bey [Mr.], Name Hanım [Ms.],} (from Wiki)

    {……Erdogan defended Kadi, saying he trusted “Yassin Bey” (using a Turkish honorific denoting utmost respect and seniority for Kadi) as much as he trusted himself……} (from “Would Turkish Troops in Lebanon Be Neutral?”
    by Soner Cagaptay
    The Jerusalem Post
    August 26, 2006)

    OGLU

    and since you apparently missed my previous post, here it is again:
    Here are the official names of several prominent Azeris:

    Heydar Alirza oglu Aliyev,
    Ilham Heydar oglu Aliyev,
    Abulfaz Qadirqulu oglu Aliyev (aka Abulfaz Elchibey)

    And a couple of Turk politicians.:

    Kemal Kılıçdaroğlu
    Fatma Ekenoğlu
    Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu

    You should be more offended by your “Many Turks….are Nazis”, than my use of the patently non-offensive ‘oglu’ and ‘bey’.

  22. Avery,

    You clearly don’t intend to honor those to whom you apply what might be an honorific (Bey) or descriptor (-oglu). You apparently think they should be ashamed.
    Please imagine what a young Halil Berktay, Taner Akcam, Umit Ungor, Fuat Dundar, Selim Deringil, Ahmet Ihnsel or Fatma Gocek might have thought if in their formative years they tried to express their initial questions to Armenians, and were met with essentialist comments, racism, and abuse.

    Kako,

    We differ on the issue of reparations and restoration of land. My families’ lands were stolen by Ottoman officials. In a nearby area, some years ago, an Armenian man actually got title back to family lands after a 20 year court case. When he returned to the area, hevwas shot dead by a Gendarme, just as his grandfather had been.

    100 years is nothing. These were our lands and civilization.

    I disagree with your comment that these issues are the defining mark of Armenian culture. Our culture like yours and others is based upon kinship, family, religion, language, architecture, foods, art, named, geography. It is understandable that you woukd think this because AG recognition is the primary issue in the news, but the AG no more is the defining characteristic of our culture than Hitler is the organizing principle of Jews.

    You should visit Armenian Churches and meet people. If you go with an open heart, you will probably be received well. Many Diaspora communities with roots in Istanbul and Beirut have Turkish speakers, or you can ask a Bolsa-Hye friend to introduce you.

    Here is my question to you and Kerim:

    Where is the diaspora liberal voice among Turks? All i see is racism from people like Ergun Kirlikovali, the president of the ATAA, and similar organizations in Europe that claim to represent all Turks, and now Azeris. We know of liberals in Turkey, who risk their lives to soeak out, but no organized voices here.

    Why not?

    • “Avery, You clearly don’t intend to honor those to whom you apply what might be an honorific (Bey) or descriptor (-oglu). You apparently think they should be ashamed.” writes my pal ‘jda’.

      Apparently not only my pal ‘jda’ is a Counselor, a Police Officer, a Three Stooges aficionado – but a mind reader as well.

    • Avery,

      You don’t need to be a lawyer or a cop or a psychic to understand why someone fails to answer an accusation, and tries to divert attention from that accusation, as you have in this sequence. When you have facts on your side, and an audience which is at least partially receptive, it’s silly to insult them from a practical point of view, and rude to boot.

  23. Necati : Typical ‘fascist-language’. You fascists have no conscience.

    It is sad that there is so much fascism and hatred in such topics (from both some Turks and some Armenians).

    Also, in Anatolia and the Middle East, there is just too much of that. Often, I wish I lived far away from these lands.

    I am a Turk but for me that doesn’t matter much. I am just a human being who has happened to be Turkish and who has happened to be born in Turkey.

    I don’t understand nationalists ; never did and never will.

  24. RVDV

    I have nothing against you personally but as long as Turkey proper and its people are in full denial then to me the genocide continues. Your own education system still teaches that somehow the Armenians deserved what they got. How crazy and hateful is that? BTW, the main goal of the Armenian genocide was theft. Make no mistake. Sorry I don’t get warm fuzzy feeling for your apologizes but I only has to look at Ottoman history to understand that no matter where your people went you brought misery and oppression to others. Just ask any race under Ottoman rule..Just ask the Kurds today.Unfortunately, Armenians were unlucky in that our ancient home land lay right in the heart of Anatolia itself and unlike other cultures that eventually rid your yoke, we were already home and defenseless citizens of the ottomans and yes, easy prey for the predator mentality. LETS BE CLEAR: WE ARE ONLY NEIGHBORS CAUSE YOUR ANCESTORS STOLE THOSE LANDS THROUGH MURDER AND THEFT..AND YES GIVEN HALF THE CHANCE THEY WOULD RID THE REST OF US AS THEY DID FROM 1890’s TILL THE EARLY 20’s…

  25. Kerim
    I think Boyajian fromulated what I would have answered your comment to my response very well. I for one, too, am not after vengeance on Turks. That would not bring our dead to life, but would further inflame the situation, whereas we need a peaceful environment to survive and flourish. We are looking to future.
    But, Turkey too cannot go on forever with the policy of denial. For the sake of her and her neighbour’s future generations, it should find the courage to acknowledg and apologize, just as it did in the case of Alevi Kurds. I personally don’t believe that that would culminate in the disintegration of Turkey or financial reparations beyond Turkey’s capabilities.
    Contrary to the working of the “Middle-Eastern mentality”, as you call it, such a gesture by Turkey will greatly reduce the hatred that permeates the lives of our two peoples. The present atmosphere of hate and animosity would greatly have been vanished.
    This is what many of us, Armenians, and I am sure many Turks as well, would like to happen. But as long as your country continues to deny and belittle our dead, I have no choice, but to fight the denialists for the sake of justice.

    Anti_recist
    Don’t take heed of this psychopath Nejati. He is not worthy of attention, though that’s what his sick minds craves for.

  26. John: you need to get over some things. The Ottoman Empire is gone, it only exists in history books now. AG recognition is my wish as well, but making broad statements such as Turks will continue genocide if given half a chance is baseless and pointless. Can you show any proof of your claims? Did you notice how I spoke of Turks in the third person? I am an ethic Kurd, but I consider myself a Turk. I know what Turks have done. Ottoman history is marked by countless massacres, injustice, and oppression. The Armenian genocide was by far the most violent of these events. There were not atrocities on the scale of AG right and left in Ottoman history. Your hatred is blinding you. About getting warm and fuzzy- don’t. I’ve apologized many times, I’ve done my part- the rest is up to you. Turkey and it’s people are in full denial? FULL denial. The fact that people Iike me and Anti-racist are on this forum is proof that Turkish people are NOT in full denial? What about the thousands that marched after Hrant Dinks death and recently marched in protest at the court ruling? There aren’t that many Armenians left in Istanbul, some if not most of them were Turks. Do they fit under your definition of FULL denial? What about writers like Orhan Pamuk and Yasar Kemal? By your defintion that “Turkey proper and it’s people” are in FULL denial, these people are also denialists. What about the countless people who do not speak up do to fear of inprisonment? Do a many Turkish people fall under the claims you make? Yes, absolutely. Does the government of Turkey deserve all the hatred? Absolutely.. It doesn’t matter if as an Armenian you can easily justify your feelings towards Turks. Prejudice is prejudice. No matter the reason, it is wrong.

  27. To the ones who considers himself as anti-racist and likes,

    i see you follow the latest fashion.

    Yes, unfortunately some ignorant people in Turkey think being humanist means only to take positions against Turkishness, Turks .

    i just wonder how many articals, books ..etc you have read about armenian issue to make a conclusion ..

    i will not start talking about what really happened in 1915. i know if i do i will be censored by AW. But i suggest you read more , from both sides, and re-think.

    you know what…you are so hypnotised that you label we nationalists as racist but too blind to see the armenian racism . why ?

    just remember the speech of armenian president concerning to Karabagh and Ağrı.

    i am afraid you are ready to give Ağrı , Siirt, Bitlis , Van Erzurum, Diyarbakır to Armenians as they claim these cities are armenian property… oops ..! was it kurdish ?

    This is Turkey, We are Turks. whoever inhales its air, eats its bread, drinks its water must respect Turkey and its history.

  28. Necati : Most historians agree that what happened in 1915 is genocide.

    And, yes, I think that there is only a very thin line between nationalism and fascism.

    Nationalists don’t know anything about humanism.

    By the way, I am against nationalism of ALL origins (Turkish, Armenian, British, Zambian etc). But of course, since I am from Turkey, I am mainly concerned about the effects of Turkish nationalism.

  29. And, let me say that those who don’t accept 1915 as ‘genocide’ should at least accept it as ‘acts against humanity’.

    I hope one day in the near future, peaceful relations between Turkey and Armenia will be a reality.

  30. Enough of this straw man “Hating Turks is what binds Armenians.” It is an easy cover up for Turkish citizens to rationalize doing nothing to atone for the crime.

    Turkish citizens need to realize that their country (and by extension, they) benefits from the fruits of genocide to this day. The wealth Turkey expropriated from deported Armenians funded its War of Independence. The reason you have a state today is because of the intentional murder of our ancestors. The reason your country has such advantageous commercial ports (read: Black Sea) is because land that would have belonged to Armenia was taken away through genocide.

    I live in Canada. I gladly pay tax dollars for my government to compensate indigenous population for the genocidal Residential School system. Germans pay money without complaint for governmental reparations to Holocaust survivors to this day. Turks need to suck it up and do the same.

    Whoops, I hope I wasn’t racist.

  31. “Turks will continue genocide if given half a chance is baseless and pointless. Can you show any proof of your claims?”

    RVDV: Not only it is neither pointless nor baseless, but it is based on real historical background; steps that the State of Turkey has taken to annihilate Armenia and Armenians several times since 1915.

    First attempt was in 1920 by General Karabekir, under orders of Mustafa Kemal to wipe out Democratic Republic of Armenia. He nearly succeeded.

    Around the time the Battle of Stalingrad was raging in early 1943, Turks had massed 27 divisions on the border of USSR (Armenia SSR). If Nazis had won at Stalingrad, and pushed on to Baku oilfields, Turks were going to invade and – well – wipe out Armenia.

    In 1993, when the Karabagh war was raging and Azeris were losing bad, PM Tancu Ciller massed an invasion army on the border of Armenia. The idea was to invade Armenia’s South, cut Armenia in half, link up with Azeri troops and save them from imminent defeat. Armenia, thus surrounded on all 4 sides and cut off from the world, would be easily obliterated.

    And of course, the State of Turkey’s worldwide campaign of Genocide Denial is tantamount to continuation of Genocide. It shows no remorse for what they did. It dehumanizes Armenians. It means to us that they will do it again if given the opportunity. We don’t need to see a blueprint.

    You say thousands marched in Turkey: they certainly did. Very, very brave and honorable of them. We saw it. But we also saw this: thousands of Turks in Paris marching to prevent passage of the French AG Bill. They have lived in Europe for years, they have unrestricted access to the truth about AG, – yet they march in support of AG Denial. At the very least they should have had the decency to stay home. Or, better yet march side by side with French-Armenians in support. There can be no fear of the Turkish State in their hearts in France. But something else: hatred of Armenians.
    Do you have another explanation ? (please do not invoke the ‘freedom of speech’ canard)

    We were nearly wiped out from the face of the Earth.
    Read that again and let it sink in.
    No Kurd, or Turk can understand what that means.
    By some miracle of Providence, enough of us survived to regenerate into sustainable numbers
    But we are not out of danger. We do not have sufficient human reserves. We do not have strategic depth.
    We just cannot let our guard down.
    We owe it to our murdered ancestors.
    Survival of our Armenian people is above all.
    Being called hateful means nothing when your survival is at stake.
    As long as Turks and AzeriTurks have the physical ability to wipe us out, we have to assume they will: better safe than sorry.

    And if I ever was in a situation, I’d rather have someone like John (the Armenian) watching my back – alleged hatred or not – than someone that would sit around debating endlessly so as not to hurt anyone’s feelings – before doing something.

  32. Avery: the past does not indicate the future. Even if Turkey wanted to do it again I can see no reason. We stole Armenian property, land, homeland, and 1.5 million people died because of intolerance and hatred. What other atrocities can Turkey commit against Armenia? I, and this is just my opinion, refuse to belive that even the most racist and nationalist Turk today would want Armenians to be completly wiped out. Believe me, Armenians have nothing to fear from Turks- physically- anymore, but I get your better safe than sorry approach. Fact is that Turkey has too much to lose, and with our ties already strained with the west, we’d be out in a heart beat. All that “NATO needs us more than we need them” logic is beyond dumb. I’m prett sure the West will find a way to go on without Turkey, we think too highly of ourselves in many regards. And PM Tansu Ciller was the head of the Nationalist Movement Party- if it was up to the MHP there would be a widespread genocide against Kurds right now. As for the people marching in Paris- uneducated. They see something that seems, in their minds, as an “attack” against Turkey, and they march in the streets with their Turkish flags. You said these people in France have unrestricted access to documents on AG. If you grow up with the “turks against the world” mentality you would have no need for said documents, because you would just percieve it as “they have it out for us, they’re lying.” that’s why I try not to get mad at some Turkush posters here- they really think AG didn’t happen, they really think their blood is “purer” than Armenians. That’s not nationalism, that’s racism due to uneducation and brainwashing. Finally you talk about Armenia still being in danger, citing things such as human reserves and strategic depth. You need to have more confidence in your people. If your people could rebuild after a genocide, they can handle today’s problems. Armenians have persevered in the past and they will persevere in the future. Empty threats by Turkey and Azerbaijan mean nothing.

    Btw: if I was ever “in a situation” I’d want a Kurd to have my back, it’s natural that you’d want an Armenian to have yours.

    • “Btw: if I was ever “in a situation” I’d want a Kurd to have my back, it’s natural that you’d want an Armenian to have yours.”

      That’s the litmus test.
      So you are really a Kurd at heart. (and not a Turk, at heart)

  33. RVDV,

    I don’t know if you attended school in Turkey. Assuming that you did notwithstanding your mastery of idiomatic American English, how were Armenians and the Genocide covered in school?

    • Jda: well I didn’t, but my dad has told me the general teaching. Governmental support, intent, and backing is needed for something to be genocide. The Turkish version in schools, from what I have been told, is that the Ottoman government was so weak in and in chaos that they could not have organized such a wide scale genocide. Also, in 1919 Ottoman Sultan Mehmet tried some of the perpetrators because of some reasons that I still am not to clear on. But the point is made that if the Sultan tries the perpetrators then that means that the head of government did not endorse the genocide, removing governmental backing…. Flawed argument at best.

  34. I disagree, RVDV
    The past in many ways—not all. of course–determines the future. Avery answered why many of us think Turks may continue genocide if given half a chance. I’d add to that. Is making a statement on dropping bombs on Armenia (Turgut Ozal in the early 1990s) not a hostile, threatening act? Is closing the borders with Armenia not a hostile, threatening act? Is refusal of establishing diplomatic relations with Armenia not a hostile, threatening act? Is imposition of the economic and transport blockade on Armenia not a hostile, threatening act? Is supporting a third party (AzerBEYjan) to the conflict with Armenia not a hostile, threatening act? Mind it, these acts are happening NOW, not in 1915.

    “Believe me, Armenians have nothing to fear from Turks”. –- We once bought this sugar-coated Turkish slyness when Armenians supported the CUP, longing for reforms and hungry for relief from oppression and misery. 1915 was what Armenians got in return. It’s a fact-based and grief-driven conviction among Armenians not to believe a word uttered by a Turk.

    “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me”.

    • Armen: I understand what you are saying. Like Avery said, better be safe than sorry. However, the things you have listed are threats, supporting a third party, and economic blockades and closed borders. Not any actual, physical action. To me, Turkey is just talking big, and making empty threats. Lack of trust is one of the main problems. The 2009 protocols were flawed in many ways, but they could have paved the way for opening of borders, and economic cooperation. Again, the issue was Armenian genocide. If this issue is resolved by recognition and reparation, I think the lack of trust will dissipate, and Armenians won’t view Turkey’s moves with suspicion that is well deserved. We do not have a good track record with the truth. Of course until this happens, Turkey must change its “us against the world” mentality. I still stand by comment that Armenians need not fear Turkey, because Turkey knows it will risk losing far to much.

  35. When RVDV describes what Turks would not do today, I take him at his word with regard to himself, and perhaps his family and friends. If he is a Kurd or an Alevi, he may be telling us something accurate as to these groups.

    But I agree with Avery and Armen that the state, the nationalists, and the Kemalist elites are more than willing to kill every living Armenian, and remove every trace of Armenia and Armenians from the earth. Some examples:

    1. The excoriation of Armenians in school texts as backstabbers – exactly the words Hitler and Goebbels used;

    2. Trying to strangle Armenia into submission and death by closing the border;

    3. Supporting the AZ armed forces

    4. Refusing in the museums of Eastern Anatolia to acknowledge the existence of Armenians, see article 3 years ago by Ara Sarafian

    5. maintaining statues and festivals, as in Marash, portraying Armenians as traitors and murderers

    I have never lived in Turkey, and will not visit, but aside from a few columnists and brave civil rights leaders, plus the Mayor of Diyarbekir, I never see any sympathy or humanity in the remarks of Turkish political or cultural leaders as to Armenians, who are portrayed at the same time as murderers and as the unwitting pawns of western powers.

    If God forbid Turkish soldiers ever step foot on Armenian soil, two things will happen:

    They will kill the defenseless without mercy,

    Every man, woman and child will fight to the death, knowing that it is preferable to being led to slaughter. After a people goes through a Genocide, this is the natural reaction.

  36. Thank you armenian week for this forum and all participants for contributing it is very exciting and promising to me for humanity.
    Lets break things down to fundamental, first we are all from africa, we share 99.99% or more of the same genetic material. Second, the word “race” is a political term not a scientific terminology. we are separated trivially by culture which may include things like religion and language. as we know they probably have some similar origin when we learn about linguistics. Third, man is an animal that does does horrible things to eachother. This my friends is humanities goal to overcome. geneticists have done population studies in that part of the world, and turks and armenians, greeks, assyrians, caldeons, and other minority groups are all related. muslims around the world must ask themselves how it came to be that turkey is now 70-80 million people and other minorities have remained as small minorities for the last 100 years. armenia worldwide number 4-5 million, assyrian 2-3 mill, greek 10-12 million, caldean ? The fact is that forced conversions, hostility and intolerance continues to this day and has resulted in what we have today. I am turkish born and i know what it is to fear and hate the turk and for a long time i hated my fellow brother but the hate is gone with the help of our savior Jesus Christ
    These are the reasons armenians are angry and saddened, because the lies and injustice continue in turkey and for that matter in every muslim contry i know of . in my opinian the muslim world has a long way to go for reconciliation and understanding with its minority populations. I hope it is done sooner than later. as was said by genocide scholar Israel Charney “denial is the last stage of genocide.” and as we know of history those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

  37. RVDV
    I’m afraid you’re wrong. Supporting a third party in a conflict not related to Turkey, economic blockades, closed borders, and refusal to establish diplomatic relations are not mere threats; they’re actual, physical actions taking place from the declaration of Armenia’s independence in 1991 until now.
    I still stand by an adage: “Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me”.

  38. Nanore’s article is excellent. It exposes the hypocrisy of Dr. Ron Paul’s supposed non-interventionist position in foreign matters, it exposes the true nature and hidden agenda of his advisers, and it brings to light the nefarious influence of Turks living in the USA.
    GREAT JOB, Nanore.

  39. We are sad to hear of the Ninth Circuit en banc opinion today reversing the Movsesian ruling.

    However, here is small thing to savor and enjoy from the same court inan unrelated case brought by Bruce Fein against a congressional candidate:

    Bruce Fein, counsel for Satan, being lambasted by judges of the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeal for suing a Congressional Candidate for assault, libel and defamation. Fein’s case was thrown out and he appealed. The appellate judges were clearly upset with him, pointing out a gross error in his briefing which they demanded he retract, and all but saying he brought the case not to win, but to intimidate.

    http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/view_subpage.php?pk_id=0000008751

  40. An impressive share! I’ve just forwarded this onto a coworker who had been conducting a little research on this.
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    this issue here on your blog.

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