Nobel Laureate Fined for Mentioning Armenian, Kurdish Deaths

A Turkish court has ordered Nobel Prize-winning novelist Orhan Pamuk to pay 6,000 liras (about 4,000 USD) to six individuals—1,000 liras each—in compensation for insulting their “Turkishness” after citing the number of Kurds and Armenians killed in Turkey. He has two weeks to appeal the case.

Orhan Pamuk (Photo by Martin Godwin)

In February 2005, Pamuk told a Swiss newspaper, “Thirty-thousand Kurds and one million Armenians were killed in these lands, and nobody but me dares to talk about it.” Six individuals launched a lawsuit against the novelist, including the ultra-nationalist lawyer Kemal Kerincsiz who is a suspect in the alleged Ergenekon coup plot against the Turkish government. The five others are said to be relatives of soldiers killed during Turkey’s fight against “terrorism.” They claimed Pamuk “accused all Turkish people” in his words.

Initially, the suit was rejected by the court in Sisli, a district in Istanbul. The plaintiffs then appealed to the Supreme Court of Appeals. In 2009, the court deemed the case worthy of consideration. The Sisli court then reevaluated the case, and on March 27, 2011, ordered Pamuk to pay compensation to the plaintiffs.

Some Turkish writers and intellectuals have expressed their outrage at the court’s decision. They have pointed out that Pamuk did not even use the word “Turk” in his comment. “So why did they file a lawsuit against him? And what will happen if everyone decides to file a lawsuit against Pamuk? Will he pay compensation to all of them? It is hard to accept the fact that we are pushing an author who brought the Nobel Prize to Turkey into a corner,” Oral Calislar, a journalist, writer, and one of the initiators of the apology campaign launched by Turkish intellectuals in December 2008, told the Sunday Zaman.

A world-renowned writer, Pamuk received the Nobel Prize in Literature in 2006. His books have been translated into about 50 languages. His widely acclaimed novel Snow was translated into Armenian by the Hamazkayin Armenian Educational and Cultural Society in 2009, becoming the first literary work by a Turkish author to be translated into Armenian since the country regained its independence from the Soviet Union.

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Nanore Barsoumian

Nanore Barsoumian was the editor of the Armenian Weekly from 2014 to 2016. She served as assistant editor of the Armenian Weekly from 2010 to 2014. Her writings focus on human rights, politics, poverty, and environmental and gender issues. She has reported from Armenia, Nagorno-Karabagh, Javakhk and Turkey. She earned her B.A. degree in Political Science and English and her M.A. in Conflict Resolution from the University of Massachusetts (Boston).
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@NanoreB

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71 Comments

  1. This is just highlights Ankara’s limitless stupidity in dealing with the Armenian Genocide. So I take it this is another example of how ‘Turkey has changed for the better’…LOL!

  2. What an embarrassment!  How can the educated and just in Turkey stand the stupidity of their government?  I applaud the journalists and writers who have expressed their outrage to this.  Pamuk should also be applauded for his integrity and courage.  The truth will be told despite the efforts to suppress it.

  3. Indeed, where are Ahmets, Roberts, Murats, Zekis, Karekins et al, mind-tilters and  propagandists posting on these pages? Those who assure us no one in Turkey is prosecuted under 301 and that modern-day Turkish state is no longer those uncivilized nomadic Seljuks or Ottoman mass murderers. So, how can things like this happen in a “civilized”, “tolerant”, and “remorseful” society?

  4. They have to resort to suing to keep the truth about the genocide against its Christians quiet–Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians.
    Silly country.

  5. International outrage will make the goons back down. Wait for it. 
    Turkey’s undemocratic article 301 reinforces Pamuk’s statements.  It points out to the world how right Pamuk is about the genocide of Armenians. And it also shows the world that turkey is a country that will continue to deny even as the civilized and democratic world laughs in disbelief at it. And they want entry into the EU?

  6. Do my reconciliation obsessed Armenian brethren see that there beloved bolso government is not interested in reconciling its differences with truth? How many more examples like this must they read about until it sinks in?
    The Turkish government would rather instigate hatred, promote intolerance, levy insults against victims and survivors of a genocide, criminalize truth and demand gag rules to protect their virgin ears.

  7.  What an opportunity!!! We must use all means available to get this story world visibility. Aside from the continued denial of their crimes and the foolish code 301; it illustrates how Turkey treats a Nobel Laureate from their own family. We need to support Orhan and those Turks who support him ; while exposing the hypocracy of the Turkish “democracy”. The key for our cause being relevant to third parties is show its linkage to current realities….a clear connection between our tragedy from 1915-23, the Kurds in the 1930s and the policies of the current government.

  8. This really proves the point I’ve been making for some time that we’re really dealing with a different bird altogether, a country with a mistaken identity, or one which is seriously misnamed: Hence the country is/should be really the Republic of Ostrich rather than the bird normally associated with Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners! Surely it is the other bird, namely ostrich, which isists on burrying its head deeper and deeper into the sand in order not to see the reality around it – just like the Republic of Ostrich does vis-a-vis the Armenian Genocide and its own history in general preferring a fabricated, utterly distorted and revisionist history for reality and historical truth. Result? Millions of ‘roberts’, murats, zekis and ‘karekins’ who constantly parade on these pages with their brainwashed and revisionist comments; and at the state level true ostrich behaviour in prosecuting truth and literary excellence and courage with ostrich tools such as 301 and other repressive laws in order to hide the truth deep under mountains of ostrich falsehood and revisonism. Ragip Zarakolou and hundreds and thousands of other courageous publishers and journalists… and (Kurdish) civil rights activists are put behind bars by the ostrich mentality to keep the foundations of the Republic of Ostrich intact. Yet these foundations are based on sand and the day is near when the entire eddifice will collapse as sure as all the other repressive regimes around it are collapsing.

  9. I suggested cautiousness on another discussion forum,when it comes with dealing with great Turkey,in order not to be taken in by their nearly daily maneuvres.
    1.Couple days ago on Armenian H1 T.v., from Yerevan, where their Intellectual Mr. Aktar was being interviewed by Armenian interlocutor,Aktar supposedly quassi a dissident like a dozen or so(some of them masked MIT agents,no  doubt) he all of a sudden interjects,soon there will be  2 flights weekly? from VAN  to Yerevan(beginning then,2 days ago).
    2.Some of Armenian churches are being or will soon be repaired in Turkey.
    3. His(Aktar´s) belief  is that  the public of both countries  should get to know each  other better(meaning probaably that with above two mentioned and more to come they are preparing yet another such softening process, say partial opening  of border8which will only serve  their objective,not  ours to their  benefit  not  ours,my viewpoint)
    Worst  of all las blow  CAME TODAY ON Armenian flash News ,midday,their 9 p.m.  that Mr. Davutoglu , Foreign Ministre has declared in not by 2015 we will sit down to settle the Armenian issue…..
    Another turkish  Yavash Yavash, by and by diplomacy(gaining time  of course) for they know by then they will have softened  up more  of our naivs(hopefully not) most  of us will stand our ground,steadfastly and DEMAND JUSTICE …
    So John,.Daro, Bagratuni et al ,please have patience and do not be alarmed  if daily flights also are introduced between Istabulla and Yerevan, or at  least weekly… 
    What  all those  oppressive regimes from Northernmost  Africa  to the Persian Gulf are undergoing is certain to by and by seep through UYGURLAND(Great Turkey).Why I mentioned  Uygurland again’ because  Mr. DAvutoglu´s Mission there(NorthWest China) when visitng  China did  not result in stirring trouble  there,stating¨My ancestors came from here¨..now he may join the Nato with a couple  of so battle ships and one submarine to show to show their loyalty to Nato. Things change quite rapidly in that country.I must admit their diplomacy is really fast at work and does  not pass up any chance to intervene, or at least  declare fiuture  undertakings  like the ONE ABOVE  THAT  IN YEAR 2015(does  not that  sound year Our Genocide becomes Century old?some co incidence eh?

  10. You are right on mark, Stepan! Each of us should cut and paste this and send it to our local newspapers. put it on the web, etc. Don’t forget to include the Hairenik byline so they get credit for publishing it! Or just click the web site address and mail that. April 24 is coming up and the turks are dreaming up  stories  to discredit us. Unlike them, the truth is always good publicity for us.

  11. Or ponders this, Bagratuni: Does the Ostrich mentality stem from a self-consciousness over the predatory characteristics implied by their Grey Wolf Origins?  This nation’s own origin-mythology depicts them as descendants of one surviving proto-Turk from the inaccessible mythical Ergenkon region of Altay Mountains of Central Asia, who was nursed by wolves and from whom all subsequent Turks descended.  How one child can bring forth descendants, I’ll never know.  Or do Turks believe they descended from a human/lupine relationship, and consequently share the wolf DNA?  Could this explain the pack mentality and over-zealous territoriality?  Just kidding, but seriously,what if?

  12. I was delighted to read that Pamuk’s “Snow” has been translated into Armenian. How come it was never advertised or reviewed in our know-it-all papers? Is it in Western or eastern Armenian, since Hamazkaine operates both in Diaspora and Armenia? I hope it is translated from Turkish and not from some other language.
    “Snow” falls in Kars, Turkey.  A fascinating read. The author reminisces about the Armenian community who is wiped away from the city, he describes an Armenian rug, houses that once belonged to Armenians. Yet when “Snow” was published there was no attack on Pamuk for years… till he gave that interview in Switzerland. Does this mean that his own countrymen, those omniscient lawyer types, never knew of the content of the book? More importantly, how is it that not a single Armenian brought forth this issue in Pamuk’s novel in the years preceding the “earth-shattering” interview ? Oh yes, we were too busy honoring other mediocre Turkish novelists.
    Finally, it should be noted that, for years now, Pamuk avoids speaking about the Armenian massacres. He is already “silenced”.
    In a way, I understand his position. It’s better to stay alive and enrich the world with superb literature.
    Till the voice of the tormented rings again!

  13. I am picking up where I left off-above- as I am watching Mr. Robert Haddejian(writer,editor of Armenian newspaper,Istanbulla)being interviewed by lady from Yerevan,forget her name.
    Anyhow after, repeating what the Turkish intellectual Aktar above  had said,i.e. the Armenian and Turkish public must be brought to relate and contact and get to know each other after such a long time elapsed(reason  well known  why) also if borders are opened,arriving at point when he said indeed, without DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS, this impossible.
    As to resolving differences, he went on..One demands recognition of Genocide while the other(chewing the words a bit) tries to evade  it ,as there would of course  surface compensations,restitutions. In short what i wish to ¨¨suggest¨¨  is that Armenians should be  ON GUARD, from such rapprochements  that  they EMPLOY, i.e. the by and  by softening process,yavash yavash.
    As to what my younger co forum members  here discuss,my onlyu observance to them is to be CAUTIOUS. Never trust one that  TRIES TO DENY TRUTH.

  14. Turkeys know not anything else but to toss about PLOYs… one after another, after another – endlessly.  Anything to distract from true issues which a turkey will not admit – even lies to their own citizens, 301s their own citizens, and even lies when educating students as these leaders, obviously, also lie to themselves. Now, again, Turkey sends troops to continue its policy of not warring, but be a participant – appearing before the world as a participant… (not a Genocider at this time) but again, ‘showing up’ with the civilized nations of the world… Howsomever, a turkey did not take any such a stand when it came to the Sudanese Genocide of the Darfurians. Obviously, since turkey is allied with Sudan – they chose to ‘ignore’ the Sudanese Genocide of Darfur!  Manooshag

  15. John K,
    Obviously, EU has chosen, wisely, not to include Turkey.
    Why a turkey is in a NATO (USA insistence) when a Turkey is
    not like-minded with the other nations of a NATO. Manooshag

  16. There is nothing intelligent about this decision – period – and I’m sure the EU is watching such things very closely.  The goal, as we all know, is to silence history and truth, while preventing it from reaching the Turkish public. This is historical apartheid with a denialist core. We have to ask how something like 301 can even exist in the 21st century. But then, when you see who supports Turkey…the US, Israel, Azerbaijan…we have to cite them as accomplices in this charade to deny the genocide.

  17. Manooshag, where does the word ‘howsomever’ derive from and do you use it to mean ‘whomsoever’ or ‘howsoever?”   It is an unfamiliar dialect to me.

  18. As ‘whomsoever means ‘whoever’ and howsoever means ‘however’ thus howsomever also means 
    however… got it? It is of the English dialect… perhaps before your time.  Manooshag

  19. Well said Stepan.  We should publicize this news worldwide.  Through the internet, the papers and the media.  Such an acclaimed well educated writer from within them and look how the Turkish government is treating him.  BTW; on the side but Mr. Pamuk has such a kindly smile on his face.  The belligerent government of Turkey’s denial that continues the Armenian Genocide for soon to be 96 years.  Ambassador Morgenthau has said in 1915, that the world hasn’t seen such a horrible barbarity, massacres and killings as it was the fate of the Armenians.

  20. Karekin, Unfortunately the European Union is not doing much for our cause and doesn’t seem or intends to do in the near future.  Let the United States and Israel see all this that in fact they are accomplices in this denial business of Turkey, by keeping silence and furthermore silencing our Hay Tahd and doing everything in their power to silence the Armenians in the United States Senate, the Congress and the media.  They are both siding with the belligerent government of Turkey.  We should act on our behalf by strengthening ourselves, our Motherland Armenia and Artsakh, not assymilating ourselves in the Diaspora as much as possible, and pursuing our cause through international legal channels, the hague; for reparations of OUR long lost lands.

  21. Word Junkie, Don’t be ridiculous by bothering Manooshag.  We are not sitting here checking each others’ every possible word that is spelled right or misspelled.  None of us is obliged to write here with the very proper English diction, but we are here to write our thoughts, our insights, our aspirations for our socioeconomic and social standing and of course for our Armenian cause.

  22. In my above post in regards to the European Union; they are keeping Turkey outside of their union for their behalf, because they know that if they include Turkey, Turkey will bring EU’s prestige down and Turkey will benefit but the EU will not on many fronts.  As a front, the EU are reminding Turkey of her belligerent past and as it stands today that there isn’t an iota of a change in their political standing towards the Armenians nor the Kurdish people living in their country.

  23. Noubar, Knowing of  the terrors and hells Turks vented against our Armenian nation – the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian peoples – so, IF “a Turkey has changed for the better”… When? Where? How? Ever?  For a Turkeys muslim leaders are still of the Ottoman mentality – even calling themselves a democracy – (but,  as in the children’s folk tale of THE EMPORER’S CLOTHES – when there were not any clothes – at all)! Manooshag

  24. The reason for Turkey being in NATO, good old USSR, is long gone. It is up to NATO to decide if they still want Turkey among them, in light of recent events when Turkey VETOED the no fly zone over Libya until it’s demands were met, delaying action by NATO for several days. Imagine- Turkey dictating Europe…

  25. It is important to watch alliances closely. Turkey, Israel, Azerbaijan and US all side against Armenia, as well as against Iran. In fact, those are the groups that have worked hard to topple the regime in Iran the last few years. They support each other, no matter what happens..even if Israel kills innocent Turks…they are immune. This is a dangerous climate for Armenia, because even if they act friendly, there is cause to be concerned. You should also pay attention to the EU situation, because it is the most vehemently anti-Armenian Turkish nationalists who are most against EU membership. Why?  Because it would cause them to be closely watched and would limit their power. If anything, the EU might bring a more open, democratic climate to Turkey, which is something we should all welcome.

  26. Sorry John K:

    Reason for NATO was the USSR, ostensibly. However, its purpose was far more encompassing and sinister.
    NATO is largely a creation of the Anglo-American Empire. Other European nations are compelled, by US’s Financial might, to remain in NATO.

    [US financial control flows from the fact that US Dollar  is  World’s reserve currency;]
    [there are moves by BRIC countries to change that, but it will take time.]
    [Plus the fact that we are World’s largest economy and market]
    Anglo-Americans do not want a strong, independent Europe (they were against the creation of EU).
    Why do you suppose Germans and French do not want Turkey in EU, yet US and England are pushing for it ?
     
    Back to Turkey:
     
    Turkey has been strongly supported by Anglo-Americans for about 200 years or so; first by the British Empire, and now by the American Empire, although we still call ourselves a Republic.
     
    Anglo-Americans want an Islamic, Pan-Turanic belt under Russia’s underbelly to threaten and divert her resources.
    It has been the dream and goal of Anglo-Americans (…plus some other interests) to weaken and dismember Russia, so that her vast natural resources can be exploited and looted on the cheap.
     
    Which country is in the way of an unbroken Pan-Turanic chain ?
    For that same reason they want to damage and weaken Armenia, so it can be wrested away from Russia’s orbit: if they succeed, it will be ‘Armenia’  in name only.

  27. well said Karekin: re “Turkey, Israel, Azerbaijan and US all side against Armenia, as well as against Iran.”

  28. Karekin,
     
    What do geopolitical or strategic alliances—otherwise important—have to do with an article that reveals an ugly fact of a Turkish court ordering a Nobel Prize-winning novelist to pay a fine in compensation for insulting “Turkishness” by citing mass killings of Kurds and Armenians in Turkey?! Every poster here expressed his or her outrage at the fact. Lay out your assessment of the event based on the topic. Is it something that testifies to the fact that “Turkey is changing”? Besides, it is not the EU that might bring a more open, democratic climate to Turkey. What else Turks expect others to do for them? Roll out red carpets under their feet? It is Turkey that should mature to become a more open, democratic society in order to be considered for a membership in the EU. I now firmly believe this is will never happen.

  29. Avery –
     
    It can’t be said that “Turkey has been strongly supported by Anglo-Americans for about 200 years or so.” For two reasons. First, 200 years ago America was nowhere near the Middle East (actively). It only stepped in the late 19-20 centuries, i.e. almost a century ago. Second, the British, who were on the stage 200 years ago, hardly qualify for being “strongly supportive” of Turkey. Anti-Turkish treaties of San-Stefano and Berlin, in which British partook, in the mid 19th century testify to that. The British also joined others in raising the “Eastern Question” (i.e. what to do with decaying Turkey) and the “Armenian Question.” Finally, in early 20th century Britain was an Ally fighting against Turkey. I agree with John K.: Turkey’ importance has been elevated by default, i.e. by NATO-Warsaw Pact confrontation.
     
    P.S. The US is not an empire in a classical sense of the word. Empire, roughly, is an extensive group of states or countries under a single supreme authority. Washington is not a supreme authority for, say, Cairo. Washington can exercise power politics and project military force (if needed), but in no way it is an authority like the British were for India, or Romans for Judea.

  30. Manooshag, thank you for answering my question in the spirit it was intended.  Meant no offense.

  31. The reason the geopolitical issue arises when discussing the demeaning treatment of Pamuk, a Nobel laureate, is because none of us can imagine any Nobel prize winner being treated in a similar way west of Istanbul, i.e. within the EU zone. Thinking Turks should be outraged and ashamed of its own, pathetic behavior on this, but the truth is, there are still powerful deep state forces who dont’ want the truth spoken about even by such an esteemed personage like Pamuk.  This event exposes their mindset and their racist underbelly to the world, does it not? Is this the kind of neighbor suitable for Armenia or would an EU linked Turkey be preferable?  We all need to think about what we are opposing and the outcome of that policy. The positive repercussions for Armenia and Armenians, of an EU w/ Turkey on the inside is hard to calculate, but it could be a very nice change as we go forward.

  32. Arsen: thanks for the input.
     
    My mistake. I thought it would have been obvious, but for the sake of brevity didn’t want to list the following tangential information:
    [1] United States was founded by Anglo-Saxons: check the list of the signers of the Declaration, and prove me wrong.
    [2] Being declared as a sovereign nation only 235 years ago it could not possibly have ‘strongly supported’ Turkey ‘past 200 years’
    [3] US  foreign policy is a continuation of the policies of the British Empire – with the same goals.
    [4] All Anglo-Saxon ‘founded’ nations form a global, loosely interlocking whole: US, Great Britain, Canada, Australia, New Zealand.
    Naturally, there are superficial policy differences. However, there is no daylight between these countries when it comes to the security and prosperity of what Winston Churchill called the ‘English-Speaking Peoples’.
     
    Empire:
     
    Again, I shouldn’t have to point out the obvious – the use and meaning of the term ‘Empire’ as used today has evolved over the centuries.
    Roman Empire: after defeating some enemy, Romans would often massacre thousands just to teach a lesson, flatten entire towns, and sell the defeated – men, women, and children – into slavery.
    British Empire: did suppress revolts violently, but did not massacre the losers afterwards, nor did it sell the defeated into slavery.
    American Empire:  could not  possibly follow the blueprint of the British Empire today or 100 years ago: methods of control and exploitation are far more refined and sophisticated.
     
    (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_imperialism for discussion whether US is an Empire or not.)
    (I firmly stand by my opinion that US is an Empire: I understand and respect that you disagree)
    (here are some links discussing Anglo-American  historical relationship)
    ( http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=9473 )
    (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_%E2%80%93_United_States_relations )
     
     
    re: “San-Stefano and Berlin treaties”
    An Eastern Orthodox coalition led by the Russian Empire had soundly defeated the Ottoman Empire, without any help from the British in the war of 1877-1878. San-Stefano treaty was modified, at the expense of Russia (and Armenia), in Berlin upon insistence of  British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli: Brits did not do anything in support of Turks: they modified the treaty to curtail the expansion of the Russian Empire. They injected themselves into the game to pick up pieces of the Ottoman corpse, at the expense of the victors.
     
    During the Crimean War 1853-1856 British joined the Ottomans against Russia. And of course during WW1 British were allied with Russia against Turks: why ? Because they were fighting a far more dangerous enemy – Germans – and Turks had allied themselves with Germany.
    Politics makes for strange bedfellows. Churchill hated Stalin and considered Soviet Communists almost as bad Nazis (…he was wrong). But Anglo-Americans allied themselves with the Soviets to defeat an enemy that threatened the existence of England.
     
    re: The British also joined others …”
    It would be hard for me to explain why they’d do that, and why it doesn’t mean what it appears to mean, without filling pages and pages of prose. However, briefly: in World Politics appearances are almost always deceiving; I choose to look at facts on the ground, not words or ‘agreements’.
     
    The faux country of ‘Azerbaijan’ was created out of thin air by British Imperialists. (Why ?)
     
    During the Arsakh War of Survival and Liberation, Turks – with full knowledge and collusion of British Government  – used occupied Northern Cyprus hospitals to treat and mend wounded Azeri and Turk fighters, who later returned to the battlefield to kill more Armenian freedom fighters. (Why ?)
     
    So what does all this have to do with Armenia and Armenians ? As I explained in my first post, Armenia happens to be in the way of the Anglo-American empire’s desire to circle, weaken, and dismember Russia – with the help of Turkic nations, primarily Turkey. Anglo-Americans have nothing personally against Armenia: it’s just business.
    We, Armenians, must be aware of and appreciate  the Big Game: it affects us directly.
     

  33. Bravo Perouz, thank you for that link.  

    If your community is planning a demonstration on April 24th in front of the Turkish Consulate, it would be useful to prepare a flyer highlighting this farcical law and these human rights abuses in Turkey.  Why not inform people and show Turkey how freedom of speech works in a real democracy.  They can’t stop the truth here.

    Karekin, thinking outside of the box as usual, is suggesting that Armenia would benefit from Turkey being “softened” by membership in the EU.  He implies that EU membership would impose major changes on Turkey and turn her into a ‘more friendly neighbor’; and we Armenians should not oppose this process for this reason.  That sounds good to me, in theory.  However, what changes has Turkey made thus far, beside superficial shows like that at Akhtamar?  Why should we believe that the will exists among the ‘deep state’ authorities, to permit freedom of speech when Article 301a is alive and well and perpetuating Ottoman chauvinism?  How do we know that EU membership by Turkey won’t have a corroding effect on the EU?  The glass seems half empty to me.

  34. Kudos to all of you.You are on the right track. Just a few comments,short  ones from me.
    April 24 Approaching,Armenians beginning ,planning ¨showdowns¨, read conferences symposium, demonstrations ,documentary film showings, historians delivering discourses etc.,great Turkey is ALSO GEARING UP.Thus;.
    Mr. Davut oglu is at  his best these days.
    1. He praises Armenians and says Armenians are our best neighbours.
    2.  Appoints Armenian from bostons´University to Ambassadorshipin PARRRRI ,France!
    3.I already mentioned  in my previous posts  smaller gestures  …etc.
    All these indicate  that  they will do anything ,literally ANYTHING,short  of recognition!!!
    I read today in Far away Granada,Spain, (country that refuses to recognize our Genocide) an important Conf  on this issue is to take place on April 12, Mr. Jose Antonio Gurriaran ,famous Radio T.v. commentator author  of two books on Armenians/Armenia  ¨´La Bomba¨ and Ärmenkios´and recently participating in yerevan conf. end 2010 to deliver speech there and others,
    Far away in florida  , at FAU(Fl. Atlantic University on same date another such Conf.
    Most important, French Senate  to consider making  it a Crime to deniers of the Armenian Genocide . These are all very worrisome to Turkey and in extension as Avery points  out to ¨allies¨.Why in inverted comas  ,last word in last sentence.Simple, they will remain so as long as their interests dictate so.So ? what´s the bottom Line?
    ARMENIANS EXPECT THAT  OBAMA FINALLY COME TO TERMS(HIS ADMINISTRATION ) AND CONFIRM THE GENOCIDE  of the Armenians by Turkey´s predecessor state?
    Not so,as explained already.What to do next. Like prof. Yves Ternont (french historian) indirectly advised  us at  end of Conf.where i was present to in Pairs April23,2009,ending his discourse with two words.¨parlement a parlement¨…
    What  else can we do? begin to seriously think  or RE-ORGANIZING OUR DIASPORA.

  35. OK, Karekin, thanks for laying out your position on the topic in that “this event exposes the [Turks’] mindset and their racist underbelly to the world.” We should call things by their names, shouldn’t we?

  36. Sorry, Avery, but even listing the tangential information doesn’t prove that “Turkey has been strongly supported by Anglo-Americans for about 200 years or so.” The information you listed essentially proves what we all know: that in international politics the behavior of a nation changes in accordance with its pressing national interest, not because of its unconditional and long-lasting love for a particular ethnos. As you yourself, in parts, admitted, the behavior of the British or the Americans was not constantly pro-Turkish throughout the course of 200 years and was in several historical instances conditional upon their intentions to curtail Russia or preserve spheres of their geopolitical or economic interest. However hard you “choose to look at facts on the ground, not words or ‘agreements’, your humble viewpoint won’t change the general agreement formed long ago among scholars that the behavior of the British or the Americans in their dealings with the Ottoman Empire was not by any rate “strongly supportive.” Britain’s “strong support” didn’t prevent them to support or sign international agreements that were clearly defeatist for Turkey (even if they aimed at curtailing Russia, which is a separate discussion subject). Britain’s “strong support” didn’t prevent them to raise—among others—the “Eastern Question” and, afterwards, the “Armenian Question”, moves that were clearly anti-Turkish in nature. Britain’s “strong support” didn’t prevent them to side with Russia and France as an Ally in an explicit military action against the Turks. Britain and America’s “strong support” didn’t prevent them to compel the Turks to sign the Treaty of Sevres and dismember the Ottoman Empire. America’s “strong support” didn’t prevent them to carve out an independent Armenia based on Wilson’s Award, even if circumstances didn’t prevent it to realize. In newest history, Turkey’s importance rose chiefly because of the Cold War and subsequent NATO-Warsaw Pact confrontation. After the dissolution of the USSR, we clearly see that Turkey’s role is waning as compared to the one it played during the Cold War.
     
    There is a plethora of opinions about whether or not the US is an empire. I just based mine on that in the classical sense of the word the US is not an empire. Washington lacks a single supreme authority; means to extend such an authority; and territories occupied as a result of imperialistic expansion. I’m aware of other theories supporting the idea that the US is an empire. I don’t share the arguments presented in them.

  37. To add  for  those  who are much younger  than me.The Famous British historian, Mr. Arnold Toynbee, who at first was very friendly with Armenians and almost nearly sided  with our CAUSE,then when invited to Istanbulla,  long ago,well entertained  with turkish delights and i mean to say real delights ,besides  the sweet meats, the real flesh type,turned back on us .He started to side  with the turks.this was not what I started to post. Real Issue!!
    Toynbee , besides  for  dozen tome books on history  has  ONE SPECIAL BOOK, THAT I BORROWED FROM BRITISH LIBRARY 25 YRS OR SO AGO . ENTITLED….(HERE COMES)
    ¨EXPERIENCES¨.yES  aVERY OR kAREKIN,SORRY DON´T RECALL WHICH OF YOU USED WROD UNDERBELLY….THIS CHAP(ENGLISH WAY  OF SAYING  GUY) Mr. Toynbee,i.e.,
    wrote:-  W E    NEED TO DRAW  BLACK-DARK,LINE UNDER  THE SOVIET  UNION(THEN),meaning like  fanaticism, contra socialism,whatever…
    IN order   TO STOP THEIR FURTHER ADVANCE TOWARDS  THE      W  A  R  M     WATERS,
    READ  oily   WATERS  OF THE GULF AREA, Iran and all Arab  countries…
    TO THAT  EFFECT……
    MORE  THAN A HISTORIAN   HE  WAS A VERY CUNNING POLITICIAN…

  38. Too, not to be forgotten, the obscene actions of the Turks who feel they must appear (in opposition) when  Armenians of the Washington DC area (or anywhere else) gather each April to observe their memorial and their need for the  cycle of Genocides to end.  For as we do the world over, historically, each year gathering in memory of our victims of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation.  Last year the Turks were stronger in their presence in DC with youth whose use of their music, to which they danced!!  Too, using obscene gestures and words revealing their mentality – enjoying – still. Anything to disturb an honest observance of those whose forbears, historically,  were victims of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation- unending Turkish style- seen now until 2011.   Too,  not noted, anywhere, in USA government, in USA media, the Woodrow Wilson memorial site – created by the citizens of USA – recently deliberately destroyed with Turk funding… of course, since the Turks CAN REMEMBER that Wilson was for the Armenians and their cause- thus damaging his site –  yet Turks in all their denials CANNOT REMEMBER  their Armenian victims of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian peoples – conveniently, slaughterings, rapings, kidnappings and worse – denied!!  
    If Turks had been made to face justice with Wilson’s efforts – reparations due and owing to Armenians –  IMAGINE, all the Genocides that the world has known since the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians – ANY Genocides shall NEVER been…  inhumanity to humans no longer tolerated – by all the civilized nations of the world – together – ever!   Manooshag

  39. Karo, I used the words ‘their racist mindset;, not to slander all Turks or citizens of Turkey, but the racist policies of certain elements within the Turkish establishment and government. Just as we would not want anyone to make broad judgements and umbrella statements about Armenians, I don’t think it’s accurate to do so when disussing Turkey. But, it’s hard to ignore negative policies and laws that affect not only minorities citizens of Turkey, but also Nobel prize winners. There are plenty of people in Turkey who see this kind of crap for what it is…crap…but, they don’t hold the reins of power, Unfortunately, there are still plenty of inheritors of the CUP legacy and mindset working hard behind the scenes to ensure that the status quo of the last 90 years does not falter. They are a small, but powerful ruling clique who have hoodwinked not only the US, but others into supporting their approach, as a bulwark to the USSR. The price has been very high, both in terms of money and lives. But, times have changed. Sadly, these people, from a past generation, have not. Perhaps once they pass into the great beyond, Turkey will be free of their iron fists.

  40. Arsen:
    re: “…don’t change the general agreement formed long ago among scholars
    Please list some of those scholars for me to review: the term ‘scholar’ does not automatically impress me. Some scholars are scholars, and some are not. Meaning, certain allegedly ‘scholarly’ research is nothing more than well concealed proselytizing, or advancement of national interests of  given  ethnos of the ‘scholar’.
     
    My understating of the meaning of the phrase ‘strongly supported’, which I previously used, differs from yours: to me, it does not mean or imply – unconditional, unequivocal, unshakable, perpetual etc. Certainly, nations form alliances for their own selfish reasons: Anglo-American strong support (my opinion) of Turks does not flow form their love of or for the Turks: Turks are simply a means to an end, as I posited in my previous posts.
     
    Finally, care to elaborate  what possible reason British would have to support ‘Azeris’ and Turks in their most recent attempt to exterminate about 200,000 Armenians, e.g. during the Artsakh War ? (or you deny that in fact they did support them)
     
    NOTE: Brits were not the only ones of course: Israel and several Islamic countries also supported ‘Azeris’. Islamic Republic of Iran supported Artsakh.
     

  41. Karekin,
     
    It wasn’t my intention to state the obvious: that not all Turks or citizens of Turkey need to be slandered for humiliating their own Nobel Prize winner. I understand it’s their government and a pretty large segment of the society that may have a racist mindset. Certainly not all of them. I just wanted you to lay out your assessment of this particluar event instead of talking in length about some alliances unrelated to the topic.  Re: “Just as we would not want anyone to make broad judgments and umbrella statements about Armenians.” Like what? That solid historical evidence exists that Armenians ever in their history mass slaughtered any other nation and stole their lands?

  42. Avery –
     
    List of scholars, foreign and Armenian alike, whether or not the term ‘scholar’ automatically impresses you, who wrote about the 19-20 centuries’ Britain and America’s involvement in the Ottoman Empire, would be too long. Sorry, while sometimes writing on these pages I don’t have that much time… In all, based on my own readings into the matter (since you’re not impressed by scholarly accounts), it is incorrect from both historical and empirical perspectives to state that “Turkey has been strongly supported by Anglo-Americans for about 200 years or so.” It wasn’t, and I believe I brought several instances in the course of the 19th and 20th centuries when Britain (or later the US or both) had pursued policies clearly non-Turkiphile in nature. This is not to say that their policies in other instances have not been Turkophilic, especially during the existence of the Soviet Union. But throughout 200 years there simply was NOT an unremitting “strong support” for Turkey. Is it not obvious to see based on Britain’s behavior at the Berlin Congress, her joining the ranks of other nations in raising the Eastern Question, her concern and support of the Armenian Question, her support for the 1912-1914 reform plan brokered by Tsarist Russia for the Armenian provinces, her being an Ally against Turkey in WWI, her and America’s dismembering of Turkey by means of the Sevres Treaty, etc.? It seems to me that I’m somehow made to reinstate that an orange is of an orange color, sorry…
     
    I didn’t argue against the Brits’ traditional policies in the broader Middle East or their alleged meddling in the Karabakh conflict, in which, by the way, many other countries, including Russia, Iran, Turkey, the U.S., and indirectly Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, and Chechnya, meddled one way or the other. My comment was to show that your statement about Anglo-Americans’ “strong support” of Turkey throughout the past 200 years was historically incorrect.

  43. forgot Ukraine: they sold lots of new tanks to Azerbaijan  and upgraded their old ones, in addition to providing other, lighter military hardware.

  44. Arsen:


    “while sometimes writing on these pages I don’t have that much time…”
    Sorry you feel that way: you chose to respond to my original post – I didn’t ask you to.
     
    And I  gave an adequate response to  [re: “San-Stefano and Berlin treaties”] in my post above. We just see things differently.

  45. Avery —

    I chose to correct a statement (“Turkey has been strongly supported by Anglo-Americans for about 200 years or so.”) that no historical evidence supports. History cannot be “seen differently” for someone’s xenophobic motivations.

  46. Why on earth is Pamuk being ‘punished’ for speaking the truth, as he sees it? He has closed the chapter on it by embracing total silence about the issue.
    I was present when he gave an interview at Columbia University, NY, right after winning the Nobel Prize. Apparently he was scared for his life, for almost a year and a half then he was hiding at an undisclosed location in the vicinity of Columbia U.
    During the event, in front of a packed audience, when he was asked by his interviewer, a philosopher (!!!)  why did he have to use the word “Genocide” instead of reaction to revolutionaries or deportation or simply a bi-product of WWI? Pamuk answered the he said what he said, what he had written down as a writer of integrity, and that he was amazed and dismayed at the reaction of the Turkish government. “But this is over” he said. OVER.
    In subsequent interviews he avoided answering questions about the Armenian genocide. He pulled out his bank account from Istanbul and settled in the United States. Then he started advocating that Turkey be included in The European Union.
    What happened to your reasoning and writer’s integrity, Pamuk?
    The incident raises two questions:
    (a) If the position of the Turkish justice system is to never forget “a mistake” against the Turkish dignity or the nation as a whole, why does it expect that we forget what happened to the lively and already being exploited minority of Armenians in Istanbul, in Anatolia? It was “a mistake” one and a half million times over, and counting….
    (b) If they have all the time and sense of responsibility to try and come up with a stupid decision of imposing fine on the writer who has dared to hurt the ‘dignity’ of some Turkish citizens, why have they failed, as to this day,  to come up with a verdict (or even a decent trial) for the MURDER of our foremost journalist in Istanbul, the citizen Hrant Dink? The dignity of Dink’s family, his colleagues, and that of concerned Armenians all around the world – including a good number of decent Turkish intellectuals – has been hurt, damaged, crushed six million times over!
    You see? The ratio is one against millions.
    Turkish policies against Eupropean Union principles.

  47. Karo…do you think no one ever slanders Armenians with umbrella statements?  It happens quite a bit in republican Turkish history. Until 1915 or so, Armenians are often cited as valuable contributors to the Ottoman Empire, but from that point on, courtesy of the the CUP and the ultranationalists, we became internal traitors, murderers, terrorists, etc. Don’t you reject that kind of verbiage as garbage?  I would hope so. It is in that vein that I urge caution, but it seems that you already know as much.

  48. Arsen:
     
    Right, just as I suspected: very cultured and civilized of you,  resorting to calling me names – ‘xenophobic’ : thank you very much.
    I could return the favour (British spelling: thought you’d  appreciate that), but I won’t.
     
    My first clue was  this sentence from your post: “….the Brits’ traditional policies in the broader Middle East or their alleged meddling in the Karabakh conflict,”
    It’s not ‘alleged’: it’s a fact, Jack.
     
    Here is the link:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/british-mercenaries-for-azeri-war-government-turns-blind-eye-to-illegal-programme-to-supply-men-and-arms-for-conflict-between-two-former-soviet-republics-tim-kelsey-reports-1408968.html
     
     
    It’s from your own, THE INDEPENDENT. You can read the entire article yourself, and see how much ‘allegation’ and evidence there is. However, here are some relevant passages:
     
    [British mercenaries for Azeri war: Government turns blind eye to illegal programme to supply men and arms for conflict between
    two former Soviet republics. Tim Kelsey reports TIM KELSEY Monday, 24 January 1994]

    [THE GOVERNMENT has given tacit support to an illegal scheme to supply Azerbaijan with military backing in its war with Armenia,
    according to a British peer who has admitted his own involvement. The Foreign Office also agreed yesterday that it knew of the project.]
     
     
    As to ‘historical evidence’: your British overlords still have not recognized the Historical Fact of the Armenian Genocide.
    Neither has my adopted country, USA – another, quote, ‘non-supporter’ of Turks and their denialist agenda.
    So maybe historical evidence in the British eyes is not historical evidence if it does not suit their Imperial agenda ?
    Or, historical evidence that supports their Imperial agenda – is neither historical nor evidence ?

     
     
    And just to burst your bubble: there are a  great many things I admire about the English/Anglo-Saxon people. The two that I always remind people of, as their unique contributions to humanity:
     
    [1] The Rule of Law, all the way from Magna Carta to today: still an unequalled achievement.
    [2] The US Constitution, conceived and implemented by Anglo-Saxons: a revolutionary, unprecedented document and idea in human history.

     

  49. Nicely put, Vehanoush.  Sadly, Turks self-righteously defend their insulted dignity in the face of truth, but after 96 years still can’t see that they owe the Armenian nation a sincere apology for virtually eliminating the Armenian presence on the Armenian Plateau of Asia Minor.

  50. Every Turk I know also thinks that this harassement of our Nobel prize winner is embaressing and demeaning not to him but to the whole country and exposes once again the broken system of justice. 

    One wishes at least some of the hipocrytes here who jump up and down on their soap boxes here, would show the same sensitivity when folks who express opinions and even state facts about the Armenian myths are persecuted in various parts of Europe.

    I personally disgree with Pamuk’s position on this issue, not to mention how embaressing for him to also so publically contradict well established facts of the matter as someone who is supposed to be more than familiar with historical topics.  I can also sympathize with the mothers and fathers who lost a son or more in the war against the Kurdish insurgents, and millions of lives, mostly Kurdish, who were impacted by the PKK brutality.  Another soldier was blown to pieces just this week.  Pamuk Bey has never shed a tear for these boys yet.

    All this makes Pamuk’s statement offensive but hardly a crime.  Regardless, while folks are fully entiteled to their opinions but not their facts, freedom of speech should be protected for all.  Turkey has a long way to go in this regard obviously, who can argue with that?

  51. Murat:

    “…..and even state facts about the Armenian myths.”

    Care to list some of those, quote, ‘Armenian myths’, so we can discuss ?

  52. The elephant in the room is Turkey’s allergic response  to any truthful treatment of how and why it has insinuated itself into the good graces of European interests [read: Libya]. Let there be no mistake: neither Great Britain nor any other European government  had any intrinsic interest in  what Armenians suffered as subjects of the Ottoman Empire. Their interests were only pecuniary, and, despite the widespread outrage among the English public regarding the Armenian massacres, their leaders pressed forward with a completely amoral policy in relation to Turkey, one which ultimately enabled  the Genocide. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deceiving himself/herself. We should insist on the truth while avoiding the folly of believing that any “great power” will sacrifice its material interests to take a moral stand.

  53. Karo – please check Murat’s post….see what I mean?  Garbage propaganda went in for the last 90 years and now garbage comes out as facts, at least according to him and those who think like him. The actual myths he should be attacking are all related to creation of republican Turkey, the founders and the supporters – most of whom were criminals, murderers and thieves. Their creation myths exist only in Turkey and in the minds of their ardent supports, nowhere else. They post a photo of the supreme non-Turk in every shop, office and establishment…and no one can utter any truths about him, because he began the myths of the new Turkey and fostered them during his lifetime. Worshipping a fascist/racist leader who drank himself to death is unbecoming, but hey…why not?  When a country is built entirely on lies, it all makes sense.  
      

  54. “One wishes at least some of the hipocrytes here who jump up and down on their soap boxes here, would show the same sensitivity when folks who express opinions and even state facts about the Armenian myths are persecuted in various parts of Europe.”

    Murat, first of all, what myths and what persecution?   Please give specific examples instead of making unproductive, provocative statements.  Secondly, do you honestly wonder why Armenians find it satisfying when genocide deniers are held accountable by other nations and governments? Stop obfuscating and deal with the 96 years of denial of historical truths.  

    Where are the two million Armenians who lived in Asia Minor in 1915?  Who killed them?  Who is pretending they died because of ‘civil war’ and ‘unfortunate consequences of deportation?’  Who has tried to disguise  historical Armenian remnants as ‘Seljuk ruins?’  Who is turning Armenia’s ancient churches into museums where worship is suppressed?  Who ‘turkified’ countless Armenians in an effort to homogenize Turkey?  Who teaches false history to their school children?  Who is so afraid to admit the truth of what happened to the Armenians that they prosecute even their own Nobel Prize winners for daring to speak of it?   And who truly believes that this truth can be denied much longer?

    This ‘hypocrite’ is not on a soap box and sincerely wants to know, if you would be so kind…

  55. Why  their own Military Tribunales  in constantinople(Now, Istanbulla) judged and condemned the heads  of the then Ottoman State for the crimes committed by them.
    They were to b e executed-but  even then-the deep state within the so called Empire,helped  them escape the country…
    So why that much time spent by these latter day turkish so called intellectuals in defense of the CRIME.Simple:-
    They know and are scared that the riches confiscated,lands usurped will be ordered by FUTURE  MILITARY OR NON Military Tribunals  to return to lawful owneers…

  56. Avery –
     
    I didn’t call you names. Re-read my post: “History cannot be ‘seen differently’ for someone’s xenophobic motivations.” Just restated the universal truth. Someone may be me as much as it may be you or Jack. If you took it as a personal insult, that’s essentially your problem.
     
    I consider myself an independent observer and I’d like to see Armenians employing evidence-based information while debating with the Turks or with fellow Armenians. I believe from the historical perspective we have a vast arsenal of facts supporting the Cause. Therefore, to me, there’s no need to invent something in support of what’s already an established fact. Such a stance doesn’t make me xenophilic having some “British overlords.” History cannot be tailored to the ethnocentric challenges of the present day. In Armenians’ case, it doesn’t have to. Because a wealth of historical evidence exists proving unambiguously what foreign players did what to the Armenians throughout our history. Whenever their role was positive, be so kind and call things by their names. Whenever their role was negative, do the same. There’s no need for an intellectual to paint everything in black or white colors.
     
    As you could see, I responded only to correct a false statement re: the 19th and 20th-century role of Anglo-Americans in the Armenian history, not their role in the modern times of which you seem to be an expert. Anything is alleged until proven. I don’t do the present, but would be interested to know (sincerely) if British or American men and arms were supplied to the NK conflict or in what ways their military backing was realized, as The Independent speculates. We’ve seen evidence of the Russian, Ukrainian, Turkish, Afghan, Chechen supplies of men and arms in the conflict. I’m not sure (that’s why the term “alleged” was used), if we ever saw British or American men and arms on the ground, but I’d rely on your wisdom on the issue because, like I said, I take little interest in the present.

  57. Turkish censorship lives on..with the current arrest of Turkish Journalists who dare write the Truth about Gulen’s Islamic Army (author Sik) there have been over 60 Turkish Journalists assaulted and arrested within the last 12 months.
    The world has their eyes on Turkey.  It is lack of democratic behaviors such as these that will get Turkey farther and farther away from the European Union and from Western values.
    We may not always like what our journalists have to say but the day we jail, fine or condem them for speaking the truth is the day we might as all forget about democracy and freedom of speech. 

  58. Please do not refer to the Armenian Genocide as “Armenian Myth” my grandparents were orphaned as part of this brutal ethnic cleansing that not only happened to the Armenians but Pontic Greeks, Greeks, Assyrians, Lebanese Maronites, Kurds and other indigenous people of the Ottoman invaded lands.
    Do not call our ancestors liars.  Everyone suffered many Turkish people have Armenian blood in them because of these barbarian acts of the Ottomans.  Up to and including civil rights Turkish lawyer Fethiye Cetin who discovered her grandmother was in fact an Armenian Orphan.
    Same to fellow Armenians, do not forget there were many decent Turkish, Circassians, Kurds who adopted our children or helped to feed some of the persecuted Armenians who were herded like cattle and told to leave their homes, churches, businesses – their possessions, daughters and farms taken from them. 
    Don’t ever call my grandparents liars.  they suffered till the day they died, witnessing atrocities that no child should ever have to witness.

  59. Tigran Mosesian, thanks for the link. Orhan Pamuk is a great Turkish intellectual and a world-class novelist. How can a nation persecute her own Nobel Prize winners? What does this tell about modern-day Turks? Has anything changed in their Seljuk/Ottoman mentality? Anything at all?

  60. Arsen:
    (Part 1)
    re the paragraph [I consider myself………black or  white colors.]
    The gist of your thinking and worldview is encapsulated in this paragraph, so I’ll address that:
     
    You seem to have an unwarranted belief that presentation of your evidence-based information will carry the day: I don’t.
    We are not in a US Federal Court, with an unbiased Federal Judge following Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure.
    In the real world – things are very different. Nobody really cares – unfortunately – who is in the right or who is in the wrong, who has better evidence and who doesn’t.
     
    You are right, we do have a “…a vast arsenal of facts supporting the Cause.” But even in a courtroom, you may lose your case, despite overwhelming evidence for your side, if you do not present and pursue your case aggressively.
     
     
    You may want to treat the world of politics, and debates with Turks,  as a US Courtroom: I don’t.
    If there is any circumstantial  allegation, not even evidence, that some entity is out to exterminate or hurt Armenians, or provides assistance to former, I am going for the jugular: I say they are guilty – let them prove themselves innocent. Armenians today don’t have the luxury of  being 100 million strong nor a landmass of 300,000 sq. miles. to afford to play nice. Jews and Israel, who are not remotely as in danger as Armenia and Artsakh, are don’t cut anyone any slack: why should we ? No one in the West would dream of doing anything that would remotely endanger Israel. My goal is to create the same kind of atmosphere: they should walk on eggshells when it comes to Armenia and Artsakh.
     
     
    I will never accuse an innocent bystander. And I am certainly not advocating becoming an Azeri or a Turk, manufacturing ‘evidence’ out of thin air, nor lying with a straight face. However, when a mainstream British newspaper says Brits were involved in the Azeri attempt to exterminate Armenians in Artsakh – that’s good enough for me: I am going to scream bloody murder.
     
     
    Our enemies fabricate total lies out of thin air, and many of them gain traction in the Western public mind, which finds its way into the minds of members of US Congress, and which affects their attitude and voting patterns for or against Armenia&Artsakh. Evidence matters little in world affairs: it’s the constant repetition and dissemination of disinformation or information. Doesn’t always work, but works often enough.
     
     
    Example ? Azeris have succeeded in convincing pretty much everyone in the West, with rare exceptions, that, quote,  “Armenians are currently occupying 20% of Azeri land”: real figure of liberated lands outside of original NK ASSR is 13%. Everyone repeats the same mantra – 20%, 20%, 20%. This 20% is nothing more than creative accounting. We are not even talking about liberated lands. Azeris consider the original Nagorno-Karbagh ASSR territory ‘occupied’ by its indigenous Armenian population: which they add to the liberated lands to come up with the magic 20%, conveniently forgetting to subtract the parts that they occupy, e.g. parts of Shahumian region. Azeris occupy about 15% of original Nagorno-Karabagh ASSR territory: how is it that this hard evidence has gained no traction ? So, how far does your evidence-based approach go in the real world ? Not far.
     
    The latest manufactured meme that has been planted is – “Armenian sniper kills 9 year old Azeri boy”. Despite all the proof by Artsakh Defense Force officials that an Armenian sniper could not possibly have done it – never mind the absurdity of the notion itself – a US Government official, Amb. Bryza, immediately issued a “Regret”, without any hint of questioning the Azeri version.
     

  61. Arsen:
    (Part 2)
    re: “someone’s xenophobic motivations”
    Who else were you referring to ? Myself and you were the only ones engaged on this thread regarding Anglo-Americans.
    I was the one that posited that Anglo-Americans had consistently supported Turks and Turkey for the past 200 years.
    The only other poster that mentioned ‘Great Britain’ was Diran, and he posted after your  post where you introduced xenophobia.
    So clearly the label xenophobic was directed at me: you don’t want to own up to it, that’s fine.




    And the statement {“History cannot be ‘seen differently’ for someone’s xenophobic motivations.” Just restated the universal truth} is certainly not a universal truth.
    I believe you honestly believe it is, but it isn’t: I’ll give you two examples, that refute its universality;
    [1] Anglo-Americans, including the vast majority of the ordinary civilian populations, honestly believe that Anglo-Americans, the West, defeated Nazi Germany.
    People of USSR, and now the Russians, Armenians, Georgians, etc,  believe that the Red Army defeated Nazi Germany.
    The evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of Soviet Union. Yet I challenge you find a single Anglo-American mainstream historian that will accept the Soviet version of the history.
    Some honest Americans, e.g. Eric Margolis, have written that in fact it was the Red Army that broke the back of the Nazi War machine. But it’s rare.
    [2] In 1967 USS Liberty was attacked by Israeli jets and torpedo boats. 34 American crew members were killed. Official US version of history is that Israelis made an honest mistake: that position has not changed all these years. All evidence and eyewitness accounts (some still alive) clearly say otherwise; that it was a deliberate attack. Which version do you believe ?
     

  62. Avery –
     
    Re: “someone’s xenophobic motivations. Who else were you referring to?” Anyone who attempts to tailor historical evidence (i.e. primary material such as treaties, official correspondence, photo-, audio-, and video material, verifiable witness accounts, accounts of the contemporaries, peace agreements, declarations of war, governmental statements or decrees, etc.) to fit his or her views motivated by the modern-day considerations or xenophobic attitudes towards a nation or a group of nations. As Armenians, we don’t have to do this. It looks cheap and ludicrous for one of the most ancient civilizations inhabiting the Earth and one with a just cause that’s gaining broader international recognition. It’s similar to how it looks when a newly popped-up nation of Azeris does it. I understand it’s hard not to become overwhelmed by a counter-propaganda when your enemies are spreading lies, but I don’t think we must mimic the Azeris in making up something that didn’t exist, such as “Anglo-Americans’ strong support for Turkey in the past 200 years.” I suspect even the Turkish intellectuals, if you ask them, will deny that their nation enjoyed “strong Anglo-American support” throughout the past 200 years. I based my view on several treaties, official governmental declarations, declaration of war, official negotiations, and the American mandate—all of which has been duly recorded. What primary material did you base your argument on? This said, I’d agree that at the times of the first Democratic Republic of Armenia and the Cold War there was a strong support for Turkey by Britain and the US.
     
    Frankly, I don’t understand what—from the political or ideological perspective—your half-truth gives to the Cause? If tomorrow Obama utters the word “genocide” or the Congress will adopt a long-awaited genocide resolution, will you change your stance about America’s “strong support” for Turkey in the past 200 years? I object seeing history from the perspective of modern-day political considerations. You think I have an unwarranted belief that presentation of my evidence-based information will carry the day. Not at all. First, I don’t present my evidence-based information so it carries the day. The Armenian Cause is so well-documented that there’s no need to adjust history to the skirmishes of the present-day politics. Second, I believe the presentation of your propaganda-based information, likewise, won’t carry the day. As you and I seem to have agreed, at the end of the “day”, all comes to a geopolitical or a geostrategic arrangement in which the interests of various players are reflected. Even if you repeat the mantra that “Turkey was given a strong support by Anglo-Americans throughout 200 years” for 1000 times, and Turko-Azeris will repeat the mantra that “Armenians are currently occupying 20% of Azeri land” for 2000 times, let’s put our hands on our hearts and admit: NONE of the two will be the univocal determinant of the possible outcome in the conflict.

    Re: universality of the fact that history cannot be ‘seen differently’ for someone’s xenophobic motivations. The examples you brought up only demonstrate different visions of history. They don’t support the argument that by seeing their victory in WWII differently Americans are motivated by Russophobic feelings or that by holding their unique vision Russians are displaying Americophobia. In fact, there are several Western scholars who admit the decisive role of the Red Army. But, then, while admitting that the Red Army did play a decisive role in breaking the back of the Nazis, is it historically correct to disregard the French, Yugoslav, and Italian resistance movements or the D-Day and the involvement of several Western nations that also contributed to the victory? I’m glad you at least presented both versions re: WWII. Why can’t you do the same while assessing the amount of support Brits and Americans have given to the Turks during the last two centuries? Maybe it’ll turn out that the support was not that strong as you think it was?

  63. The truth is that the cycle of Genocides must be ended.  All leaderships, too, their subsequent leaderships in their ongoing lies/denials shall know that they shall have to face world justice for their crimes.
    For by ignoring and allowing ANY  Genocides is indicative of the inhumanity of ALL the civilized nations of today who stand aside and observe the next Genocide that a killer has decided to vent upon humans.   (OR have not civilized nations not still acquired humanity or, have not today,  become truly civlized – yet)?
    – ONLY when evil perpetrator states are brought to face their crimes,
    – ONLY when evil perpetrator states end their policy of lies, violating, abusing humanity – eliminating peoples via their OWN convoluted and barbaric mentalties – as was a Hitler, as was a Stalin… and today, in Darfur (which Obama ignored ).
    – ONLY when civilized nations’ leaders join together and outlaw the crimes of Genocides – worldwide – such as recent Sudanese Genocide of the Darfurians (where Sudanese reigned freely, followeng example of their ally, a Turkey).
    Humanity and morals die when Genocides are allowed to continue.  Humans have allowed the Genocides to continue – inhumanity of humans – against humans!
    – The world’s civilized nations need to come together, to form an organization ready to reach any mentally deranged leaderships of ANY nations at any indication of their pursuit of slaughtering, raping, kidnappings and worse of  humans – for ending the cycle of Genocides.  Else, Genocides continue… for barbarity is still a lingering evil in the minds of those barbarians… against humanity.
    If the UN had any guts, they’d have pursued this action – for, if the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation had been brought to justice in early 20th century, reparations due and owing made to the Armenians, then ALL THE GENOCIDES THAT FOLLOWED – SHALL NEVER HAVE BEEN.  Despots, shall have known, the cycle of Genocides shall have been ended – forever!

  64.  
    Arsen:
     
    Well, this thread had a good run.
    There is new stuff on ArmenianWeekly, so I’ll  move on from this one to next – whichever it happens to be.
    We’ll let other posters judge which one of us  two presented the better case.
     

  65. Murat, Armenian myths?  Did I see it correctly?  I don’t know why such a denylist is existing on these columns?

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