In a recent ruling, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) held that Armenia had violated Article 9 of the European Convention related to “freedom of thought, conscience and religion” by convicting a Jehovah’s Witness for draft evasion. The ruling reversed the court’s previous deliberations on the right to conscientious objection—the right to refuse to bear arms or engage in military service based on moral or religious grounds—and recognized it as a right protected under the article related to “freedom of thought, conscience, and religion.”
Convicted of draft evasion
Eighteen-year-old Vahan Bayatyan was called to military service in 2001. As a Jehovah’s Witness who had attended religious services since 1997 and was baptized in 1999 at the age of 16, Bayatyan believed military service was incompatible with his beliefs. He wrote a letter to the appropriate authorities explaining the situation. He asked them to exempt him from the military, and to instead assign him to alternative civilian service.
The Commission for State and Legal Affairs of the National Assembly rejected his request, stating there was no law on alternative service in Armenia. Bayatyan fit the criteria of military service eligibility, and was bound by the Armenian Constitution and the Military Liability Act to serve in the military.
In October 2002, the Erebuni and Nubarashen District Court of Yerevan found Bayatyan guilty of draft evasion and sentenced him to an 18-month prison term. In November, the prosecutor filed an appeal to secure a heavier sentence:
“I believe that the court imposed an obviously lenient punishment and did not take into consideration the degree of social danger of the crime, the personality of [the applicant], and the clearly unfounded and dangerous reasons for [the applicant’s] refusal of [military] service,” stated the prosecutor. The court agreed, and increased Bayatyan’s sentence to 2.5 years.
In July 2003, Bayatyan was released on parole after having served 10.5 months. His release came a year before the Armenian Alternative Service Act became law on July 1, 2004, which allowed conscientious objectors to opt for an alternative civilian service in place of the military.
Case goes to ECHR
In July 2003, Bayatyan submitted a complaint to the European Court of Human Rights; it was accepted on Dec. 12, 2006. Bayatyan argued that his “right to freedom of thought, conscience, and religion” had been violated.
At the time of his conviction, Armenia’s Criminal Code, specifically Article 75, stated that draft evasion was a punishable offense. According to its constitution and the Military Liability Act, all eligible males had to enter the military. Armenia did not yet have a law on alternative service in place.
However, when Armenia applied for membership in the Council of Europe in 2001, the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe demanded that Armenia undertake certain steps, including adopting “…within three years of accession, a law on alternative service in compliance with European standards and, in the meantime, to pardon all conscientious objectors sentenced to prison terms or service in disciplinary battalions, allowing them instead to choose, when the law on alternative service has come into force, to perform non-armed military service or alternative civilian service.”
Arguments
Bayatyan maintained that since Armenia had applied for Council of Europe membership, it had had committed itself to the European Convention on Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, including the right to conscientious objection and Article 9—and had agreed to pardon all convicted objectors. Therefore, by sentencing him to prison, the Armenian authorities had violated that legal commitment.
Among the arguments advanced by Armenia’s government was the concern that if members of all 60 registered religious organizations were to opt out of military service, the state’s security would be jeopardized.
An estimated 90 percent of Armenia’s population belongs to the Armenian Apostolic Church, which according to the constitution is the national church of Armenia. Other religious groups include Roman Catholics, Armenian Evangelical Christians, Armenian Uniates (Mekhitarist), Orthodox Christians, Molokans, Seventh-day Adventists, Pentecostals, Baptists, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Yezidis, Mormons, Jews, Sunni Muslims, Shi’ite Muslims, and Baha’is.
In 2007, Armenia had 125,000 active conscripts, and 551,000 potential conscripts. It also had 41 Jehovah’s Witnesses imprisoned. Since 2002, only three members of other religious denominations became conscientious objectors—an extremely low figure, argued Bayatyan.
The court noted that it had no reason to doubt Bayatyan’s motivation in objecting military service, as a member of Jehovah’s Witnesses, a religious group opposed to any form of military service, even unarmed.
Because Armenia had signaled its willingness to adhere to the principles of the European Convention adopted by the Council of Europe, it needed to show “convincing and compelling reasons” tantamount to a “pressing social need” to justify any “interference” in a conscientious objection.
In passing its judgment, ECHR extended the right to conscientious objection to individuals of all faiths, including atheists and agnostics—or when “the obligation to serve in the army and a person’s conscience or his deeply and genuinely held religious or other beliefs, constitutes a conviction or belief of sufficient cogency, seriousness, cohesion, and importance to attract the guarantees of Article 9.”
On July 7, 2011, the Court’s Grand Chamber publicized its final ruling, 16-1, that Armenia’s treatment of Bayatyan violated Article 9.
Under Article 41 (“just satisfaction”), the court ordered Armenia to pay Bayatyan 10,000 euros for damages, and another 10,000 euros for costs and expenses. In its concluding remarks, the court stated that in a democracy, although individual interests needed to be at times sacrificed, it did not mean that the views of the majority must always triumph.
According to local and international organizations, Jehovah’s Witnesses face discrimination in Armenia, in public and in the media. In 2009, an unidentified suspect attempted to set one of their halls on fire; later that year, unidentified suspects spray-painted hateful slurs on the walls of the same hall.
“A balance must be achieved which ensures the fair and proper treatment of people from minorities and avoids any abuse of a dominant position,” noted the court. “Thus, respect on the part of the State towards the beliefs of a minority religious group like the applicant’s by providing them with the opportunity to serve society as dictated by their conscience might, far from creating unjust inequalities or discrimination as claimed by the Government, rather ensure cohesive and stable pluralism and promote religious harmony and tolerance in society.”
The Grand Chamber was comprised of 17 judges under the presidency of Jean-Paul Costa (France). Judge Alvina Gyulumyan (Armenia) was the sole dissenter to the ruling. The final hearing took place in the Human Rights Building in Strasbourg, France, on July 7.
“[The judgment] is…directly relevant to the current situation in Azerbaijan and Turkey within the Council of Europe and has implications for Belarus if it aspires to join the Council of Europe. In the longer term, the effects will be felt world-wide,” wrote Derek Brett of Conscience and Peace Tax International (CPTI) for Forum 18 News Service, an organization that advocates the implementation of Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, focusing on religious freedom. CPTI, along with Amnesty International, and a few other organizations had submitted written statements in support of Bayatyan.
The Armenian government says that today conscientious objectors are convicted only if they refuse to perform alternative service.
Around 70 Jehovah’s Witnesses are reportedly imprisoned in Armenia for refusing the alternative service option. “This ‘alternative service’ is not purely civilian in nature, and compared with military service is of a discriminatory duration. Legislation brought forward by the government still does not seem to deal with these inadequacies,” observed Brett.
Almost all member-states of the Council of Europe have recognized the right to conscientious objection and implemented laws to that regard, the earliest one being the U.K. in 1916. Among Armenia’s neighbors, Georgia adopted and implemented laws on the right to conscientious objection in 1997. Azerbaijan recognized the right to conscientious objection in its constitution in 1995, although according to ECHR it is yet to implement it. Turkey does not recognize that right.
Nanore Barsoumian
Latest posts by Nanore Barsoumian (see all)
- What’s Behind All the Pro-Azerbaijan Articles? - October 24, 2020
- Sharp Rise in Hate Speech Threatens Turkey’s Armenians - October 8, 2020
- When Erdogan Apologizes - May 9, 2019
Jehovah’s Witnesses conscientious objector flip-flop Christians who object to military service as conscientious objectors are offered the option of National Alternative Service to work in various fields such as forestry, parks, hospitals etc. Young men were at liberty to choose, but the choice of Alternative Service for Jehovah Witness men, carried with it the automatic disqualification to be viewed a JW in good standing, (disfellowshipped) subject to rejection and shunning by the Witness community, family and friends, with no hope of a resurrection. Consequently, the refusal of young JW men to accept Alternative Service resulted in an automatic prison term of several years in penal institutions.
This resulted in leaving jobs and, if married, leaving unsupported family and children, being separated for years. Then in May 1996, WT reversed its policy leaving the decision up to the individual’s conscience (as it should be), no longer resulting in an automatic disassociation (disfellowshipped). These questions beg an answer: why was this policy maintained for decades resulting in needless imprisonment?
Alternative Service, a disfellowshipping sin for decades prior to May 1996, was no longer a crime against God after that date? After men had languished in prisons for years.Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t go to war,they just let everybody else fight for them.
My mother was asked to quit her job for the 1975 failed prediction of Armageddon, leaving us poor. They wanted her to preach full-time to convert as many people possible before armageddon instead of taking care of us. They rationalized the failure as being ‘a few brothers got carried away’ when that was an attempt to displace the blame on the little guy and avoiding all responsibly for their false prophecies.
To Jehovah’s witnesses… you should seek another homeland since the fledgling nation of Armenian has enemies on each side, and more… Now, only 20 years, governed by misdirected leaderships – and a great need for an army against Turks and Azeris… Jehovah’s witnesses if you are unable to serve the needs of our nation of Haiastan – in its most vulnerable times – needs for its security is important to its existence. It is best that you seek to live elsewhere – in nations not threatened. Since today our Armenia of ONLY 20 years – works to secure its existence, once again, following the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians – too, constant Turk and Azeri continued abuses – has need of our army – today. So many have left our Armenia to leave a misgoverned nation… you too, should leave Armenia.
Were the Jehovah’s witnesses too, victims of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation?
@ manooshag – One thing you can be sure of, there were no Jehovah’s Witnesses among the perpetrators of the genocide. Jehovah’s Witnesses refuse military service in every country & army of the world.
@ Boris Romana – if “alternative” military service still involves military-related service, it is still unacceptable to a Christian. Armenia agreed to provide true alternative service under the principles of the European Convention but failed to do so. This was obvious to the ECHR.
As the article points out, only 3 other men refused military service as conscientious objectors. Do other “Christians” not find it odd that the minority religion of Jehovah’s Witnesses alone follow Jesus command to “love your enemy”? Did we not learn that if ALL “Christians” would have obeyed God rather than man and abstained from killing, WW2 would have been impossible? Jesus taught us a better way. Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, as a religion, stood up to Hitler’s authority then and they continue to. It is a matter of obedience to God. Why do the churches around the world not exersize the same faith in Jesus? Could it be that they have such a long history of involvement in politics, that their self-interests are more important than God’s purpose? They can no longer claim that God is on their side, because the decline of all of Christendom proves that is not true. God does not approve and cannot bless their bloodshed. Jehovahs’ Witnesses are proving that Gods way of ruling is superior to human rulership with its endless hatred and wars and that his Kingdom (see Lord’s prayer-Matthew 6) can rule the earth in peace.
Although we all intellectually understand the European ruling, Manooshag brings up a very relevant point. To compare Armenia to other mature democracies is really not appropriate. True freedom in a society is a function of its security and stability. Armenia, for centuries, has existed in a rough neighborhood. This is not an excuse for us to push ourselves in eliminating corruption and accelerating our democratic evolution, but Armenia is in an economic and political survival war.
The United States, the greatest example of freedom, had a vastly different image of freedom during its formative years in terms of voting rights, land ownership and power distribution. Certainly, we can expect Armenia to be on a faster path because of the significant societal advances in the last century, but it should be normalized to certain realities.
Reconciling freedom in our new Armenia with our traditions is a difficult journey, but one we will travel. What Armenia needs from everyone who has an interest in her future is pure love. For diasporan Armenians, we must translate our long held romantic notions of Hayastan, thankfully given to us by our grandparents, and turn it into action to help this jewel develop.
Sean said-“Only Jehovah’s Witnesses, as a religion, stood up to Hitler’s authority then and they continue to. It is a matter of obedience to God.”
This is flatly false and so is much of your propaganda on the superior ‘goodness’ of the Jehovah Witnesses the Jehovah Witness have many issues with internal crime and abuses.
Google: Jehovah’s Witnesses Hitler Rutherford
Sean:
I agree that the young man should have been given options to do other non-combat related service. And the reason is that forcing someone to fight rarely works and makes for a poor warrior.
However, several thousand Armenian warriors died voluntarily and violently in battle 1988-1994, so that Armenia and Artsakh could remain Christian and Armenian, and so that Jehovah’s Witnesses can now have the luxury of preaching non-violence in the middle of Yerevan.
I would have more respect for Jehovah’s Witnesses, if they went to Muslim countries and tried to convert them to non-violence.
How about going to Azerbaijan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan ? Why is it that you are always trying to convert other Christians ? Try preaching in the middle of Riyadh – see how long you can remain non-violently alive.
You talk about non-violence teachings of Christians: what if someone who is not Christian is trying to murder you ? a Communist ? a Muslim ? what then ?
Who is it that murdered 2 million Christian Armenians, hundreds of thousands of Christian Greeks and Assyrians ?
It’s an undeniable fact that peaceful, unarmed, non-violent Armenians were violently murdered in Sumgait (1988) and Baku (1990) because they were Christian Armenians.
How about going to Sumgait and Baku and converting them to non-violence ?
And I am sure the residents of the Armenian village of Maragha were murmuring “Love thy enemy”, as they were being tortured to death and their heads were being sawn off.
Actually, that line of thinking has been discredited as an outright lie, in an effort to disprove JWs. Here’s a sample from the Journal of Church and State, if you need one:
Dr. Gabriele Yonan, of the Free University of Berlin, stated: “When the entire text of the June 25, 1933 ‘Declaration of Facts,’ along with the letter to Hitler is, in retrospect, put into the context of the history of Jehovah’s Witnesses during the Nazi regime, their resistance, and the Holocaust, it consequently has nothing to do with ‘antisemitic statements and currying favor with Hitler.’ These accusations made by today’s church circles are deliberate manipulations and historical misrepresentations, and their obvious motivation is the discomfort of a moral inferiority.”
Boris, that is absurd. You should have more creative lies than that.
There is a whole exhibit in the Holocaust Museum dedicated to the resistance of the JW’s to Hitler, see link:
http://www.ushmm.org/museum/exhibit/focus/jehovah_witness/
There are to ways Armenia can go about this problem. One is to cancel the membership to the European Council and the other to start building a railroad from Erevan to Stepanakert and putting all these JW’s to work for common good and society for free.
Research for yourself many many groups resisted Hitler some to the last man and woman.
Making this an issue is obfuscation of the fact that thousands of JW are incarcerated for refusing non combat options and then are unable to support their families.
WHY? Because of rules made up in New York city.
How will you support your family if you’re dead? And how will the men you kill support theirs?
to Avery:
What makes you think that we are not in places like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan or cities like Baku? As a matter a fact WE ARE!
Jesus never instructed his followers to avoid certain countries or territories. Instead of that he commanded us to preach the good news to all the corners of the inhabited earth.. to all nations in all languages.
And so we do. And since our existence there has never been a force or regime that could stop it,.. and there never will be.
we fear no people,.. nations or governments.. we trust upon Jehovah
Manooshag had a good point…Stepan you too……
Avery jan– i totally agree with your thought process….
Armenia does not have the luxury to toy around with all these newly stemmed religions in Armenia because we are at war at all times.. we have the two most dangerous enemies who are in wait to jump at every opportunity and having JW men preach it is against their religion to bear arms, well when the enemy steps into your house to murder your family, will you STAND STILL AND PRAY TO YOUR GOD not to harm your family???? I say NOT.. you will have to bear arms to protect ..so this non-violent BS is just boils my blood… I respect each religion but if you are iving in the country where every men counts for survival of the country, you need to just put aside your beliefs…..
MEZ CHI SAZUM sents baner.. chi sazum.. yes chem haskanum te JW inch unen vor esqan hayer ungats en dra hetevits… I don’t get it.. Christianity is what we were born and raised with.. inchi en poxum irants.. chem haskanum..NOte: JUST MY OWN OPINION…
Gayane
the jw’s are not Christian. They are a cult on the same level as the scientologists or the raelians.
With the impending collapse of the eu much of Europe will have better things to worry about than dictate how others should live. This will alllow Armenia to kick out the jw’s who can go live in turkey or wherever they please. It is absurd that they were even allowed to enter Armenia in the first place and it is even worse that most of their converts in Armenia did it for money as they were in dire financial situations. Now some like to act as if they are pious believers when they would have sold their own mothers for money too.
Emeth please…please… really.. ?????
Jehovah’s Witnesses is not a religion, it’s a religious sect, a sect that has allegedly been created by certain religious and ethnic groups to sow discord within Christianity. I don’t mind if they gather and establish fellowship with each other in a secluded place, but I’m annoyed when they obtrusively bother people with their heresy. As a non-denominational Christian, I’m dismayed by JWs’ attempts to separate Jesus Christ and Holy Ghost from God the Father and to denigrate the Holy Trinity. This is a sheer heresy.
They already do work for the common good and they don’t charge for it. On the other hand, Christendom’s churches have paid clergy, yet they fail to imitate Christ (who also did not charge for his services).
That’s what they said about Jesus. If you hold to a different point of view that if fine and we respect that but why is it wrong to talk about it? A true Christian would preach “the good news of the Kingdom”, as Jesus commanded at Matthew 28:19, 20. They were his last words before he left the earth to go to the heavens to his father. Why are not other Christians open to discussing their faith. If you are convinced you are right and you love God and your neighbour, why would you not obey his command? Has your religion not explained this responsibility to you? It is in every Bible.
To Sean and Emeth
According to your justifications, if I am a Rastafarian (like Bob Marley) then I can freely walk around the streets of Yerevan and smoke a joint of marijuana because smoking weed is part of the Rasta religion. (in some branches even mandatory).
If you could pray more effectively we would probably did not need an army at all. And the question would be solved.
emeth:
re: “What makes you think that we are not in places like Turkey, Azerbaijan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Afghanistan or cities like Baku? As a matter a fact WE ARE!” (emphasis mine).
Please comment on the following:
http://www.jw-archive.org/2011/04/interested-people-in-saudi-arabia.html
[Hello Fidji,
Since the work is technically under ban in Saudi Arabia being that it is an Islamic nation I am not really able to assist you in any way.
I will post this in the archive in case any other brother has ideas or knowledge of any underground work that I am not aware of.
Best Regards,
The Libriarian
Begin forwarded message:] (emphasis mine)
I also checked Azerbaijan: although technically not banned, even small private groups are raided and harassed.
http://www.jw-media.org/aze/20110727.htm
[Additionally, from April to June 2011, police broke up several religious meetings of Jehovah’s Witnesses held in private homes in Lokbatan, a district of Baku.]
And I didn’t say you are not in this country or that: I said “preaching non-violence” in this country or that. Holding secret meetings doesn’t count.
You have to demonstrate that you have successfully converted people, as you have done in Yerevan.
Please provide names of Azeri men who have successfully avoided military service in Azerbaijan on account of being JW.
Thank you.
Gayane, I understand your point, as well as the others you mention. They are not new to me. But this issue is bigger than Armenia. Jehovah’s Witnesses are present and active in all but two countries in the world, both of which are Muslim. In WW2, 25% of Jehovah’s Witnesses died rather than kill others. They were the only prisoners who could be released by simply denying their faith and sign a document to that effect. They were incarcerated for no other reason. Since then others have died for not supporting the conflicts of this world. Right now in North Korea, 97% of conscientious objectors in prison are Jehovah’s Witnesses. Most people do not understand our work and opposers work hard to misrepresent us. Nevertheless, we obey Jesus command to preach “the good news of the kingdom”. It is a message of peace and if the whole world obeyed him, there would be no war. Just because some promote persecution, war and hatred doesn’t justify our getting involved.
If we support violence, then we belie our faith in Jesus kingdom and are no better than those who promote it. That would be to to say “if you can’t beat them, join them”. That’s what produces Nazi’s. Rather the apostle Paul said “keep conquering the evil with the good” (Romans 12:9-20).
The troubles this world faces are impossible for man to correct through violence and war. That is because of the statement at 1 John 5:19 ” the whole world lies in the power of the evil one”. As the instigator of hatred, no one can remove Satan’s influence, except God. As Jesus said at John 8:44, “He (Satan) was a murderer from the beginning, and stayed not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.” God has promised to remove him, as the book of Revelation describes.
In the meantime, Jehovah’s Witnesses will be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Shalom!
Discussing the Christian faith as a voluntary act and being continuously disturbed by unwelcome obtrusive visits that attempt to spread heresy among Christians are two divergently different things. Besides, one wonders why the visits that JWs make under the disguise of “preaching the good news of the Kingdom” target specifically Christian neighbors of a community? Why not atheists or other religious groups? I don’t need a JW to understand the Word of God that I’ve read hundreds of times from Genesis to Revelations. I don’t need a JW to give me a heretical crap about the supremacy of God the Father and inferiority of Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. I don’t need a JW to prejudice the Holy Trinity. Because, as a firm Christian, I know that no sectarian person with dubious mission, be it a JW or anyone else, can shake my faith in the Holy Trinity and in Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior.
Also noted are the provocative expressions such as ‘your religion’ and ‘every Bible’. There is ONE Christian religion and ONE Holy Bible. Till the day I die I will denounce any attempts at sowing discord in Christianity. Make no mistake, JWs…
AR (darker Brown Avatar) and Avery– Well Said…
Gayane
I know that many seem to think that all we do is pray. I believe our public preaching proves that we do far more than just pray. It is basically an education work. All of Jesus disciples did it and we are obedient to his command to do so. Prayer, if it is sincere, will be accompanied by effort on our part and that is what we do. Christendom has failed to educate people about God’s kingdom, despite the many centuries to do so. Often they opposed printing and distribution of Gods Word and even used violence and torture to suppress its distribution. For many years it was preached in a dead language (Latin). Jesus spoke in the language of the common people so that they could understand. He had compassion for people and their injustice but did not resort to human solutions. He taught how we could be a better people by LIVING by his teachings, not just professing them. So although we do pray, we know from Bible prophecy that soon GOD will act to eliminate all war and injustice. Isaiah 55:8 reminds us that “For as the heavens are higher
than the earth, so my ways are higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts”. So, we pray AND act in harmony with our prayers, confident
that in his due time HE will act. Meanwhile, every Christian must PROVE what he himself is (Galatians 6:4).
to Avery
———————
Please provide names of Azeri men who have successfully avoided military service in Azerbaijan on account of being JW.
Thank you
———————
I dont understand what you exactly mean
please see this for example :
http://wwrn.org/articles/34146/
Baku, Azerbaijan – Jehovah’s Witness Farid Mammedov’s appeal against a nine month jail term for refusing compulsory military service on religious grounds has failed, Forum 18 News Service has learned. Jehovah’s Witnesses told Forum 18 that the appeal hearing was short and “completely ignored” the country’s international human rights obligations.
to Avery
Another Jehovah’s Witness conscientious objector, Mushfiq Mammedov (no relation of Farid), was sentenced under the same Criminal Code Article in July 2006, when he was given a suspended six month prison term (see F18News 26 July 2006 http://www.forum18.org/Archive.php?article_id=818).
He was tried on the same charges again in October 2009, by which time he was aged 26. At the end of his second trial, taking account of the two months he had spent in pre-trial detention, the judge handed down a fine of 250 Manats (1,737 Norwegian Kroner, 206 Euros or 312 US Dollars).
In December 2009 Baku Appeal Court upheld the conviction, which Mushfiq Mammedov is now preparing to appeal to Azerbaijan’s Supreme Court.
http://wwrn.org/articles/34146/
Ditto that Paul jan.. Ditto…
Gayane
Dear Gayane: JWs may say that their issue is bigger than Armenia. In reality, Armenia is targeted for specific reasons, geopolitical and religious, because we are the first officially Christian nation in the world and because we are situated in a volatile area where many interests of many political, economic, religious, and ethnic groups, intersect. I know you won’t be fooled by their citations from Jesus’ teachings, because based on my personal experience they essentially attempt to sway the minds of true Christians from Jesus Christ to God the Father, as if these and the holy Ghost do not represent ONE INDIVISIBLE GOD. In other words, JWs try to dismember the Holy Trinity (Surb Errordutyun – Arm.) by emphasizing the supremacy of God the Father, the Jehovah (Heb.). When they first appeared at my doorsteps, I pretended to be religiously ignorant and an atheist. Guess what preamble they started their “preaching of the good news of the Kingdom” with? In their own words, swear in Jesus’ name: “Don’t you think if Jesus is the Son of God than, being the Son, he is inferior to God the Father?” They then went on convincing me that there is no mentioning of Holy Trinity in the Bible and insisted to give me their Bible. Exactly, their(?!) Bible.
Note ‘Shalom’ (Heb.) at the end of the comment.
PAul and Emeth
What about Sumerians and Akkadians?
Paul
You dwell on conspiracy theories. We dont pick or choose specific nations or territories like you suggest we did with armenia.
Our response and behaviour is the same all over the globe and it will remain that way. We are not interested in the so called christian history of Armenia. Christian countries do not exist on this earth.. never did.
That rules armenia out as well. All countries on earth are controlled by one single force,… the one that offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the earth in exchange for one act of worship…
hmmm who was the guy who offered, owned and controlled all the kingdoms?
Right…. Satan.. and he still does.
@ paul – the statements you refer to are not intended to be “provocative” or offend. But some clarification is needed.
1-I often visit biblos.cc because it has many parallel accounts from a variety of translations. To read “the ONE Holy Bible” would be impossible for most people, since it exists mostly in fragments in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic. Thankfully, translators render those ancient languages into the many translations that we use today, depending on our common language. Yet, they all contain the gospels (“good news”), wherein Jesus taught about his earthly kingdom. As he stated, we appropriately pray for his “will to be done on the earth”, AS IT IS in the heavens (Matthew 6:9,10).
2- We imitate one of the greatest evangelizers in the Bible, the apostle Paul. He said he was free from the blood-guilt of ALL men (Acts 20:26), because he preached to them ALL. Some critics prefer that we stay home and only preach to our own congregation. If Paul did that, it would please the Pharisees but not Jesus. Others suspect, like you, that we ONLY preach to Christians. That is not true either. The ONLY people we do not call on are those who have instructed us (after we called on them) that they do not wish to have us call on their door. We then respect their wishes. Otherwise we call on EVERYONE, just as Paul did (see Acts 20:20). In some countries (ie: Egypt) the law forbids preaching publicly to a Muslim. However, we still tactfully demonstrate our faith and teach when it is possible. In other words, there is no “target group” for our preaching.
3- We not trying to “sow discord” in any religion any more than Paul did but we know from the book of Acts that many resented his “interference” in their way of life. Did that stop Paul? No, it took him to the highest courts in the Roman empire where he spoke the truth respectfully and courageously. Paul did what was right, not just popular and Jesus would be pleased with his obedience to Matthew 28:19,20. I hope this helps clarify our preaching work in your mind. We are not the enemy. What we do is motivated by love of God and neighbour.
AR: we live by a simple biblical rule
” “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” Acts: 5:29
If you had evidence to support your “argument”, you failed to produce it. As other posters here have shown, the Holocaust Museum in Washington (and others with smaller displays) has an entire section dedicated to recording the record of neutrality of Jehovah’s Witnesses, that disproves your assertion. They also sell many books with extensive details about it. If you know of another religion who was imprisoned for their neutrality in Germany, you had the opportunity to state it in your response. Pointing people AWAY from the discussion shows your intent.
And we are NOT claiming superior goodness. I haven’t seen anyone here make that claim, except you. We are simply obeying Christ, as Christians. Shouldn’t we all?
Paul I know what you are saying.. truly do…
I believe JW don’t allow any types of celbrations or recognize any type of holidays…all they celebrate is anniversaries…. i don’t recall reading or seeing in the Bible where it consideres these actions as against God.. or maybe I missed it or misread it..
Another theory I heard….. maybe it is not a theory but a fact that JW concentrated in ARmenia because Armenia’s people are in tough situation now…. no jobs, no money and no means to survive … very easy targets… JW show they care and they will take you in if you turn into JW… but that is wrong.. you can’t do that.. and i don’t understand why any Armenian in their right mind would turn to another religion… are you not proud of being the first Christian nation????
I don’t know.. I am just sharing my thoughts…
Gayane
It’s funny that a cult member claims that the world is run by satan.
It is too easy to gloss over the nature of man and to blame it all on the devil.
This topic is getting off topic but no worries, I am hopeful that the jw cult will not have any following in Armenia within a decade, particularly as the West falls deeper and deeper in chaos. Then they will not lecture and extort countries such as Armenia.
to AR
luckily its not me or us who is making that claim.. its Gods word itself that explains it loud and clear
and for your information.. the whole world will fall into chaos. dont think that boat will pass Armenia or any other country. We dont rely on powers such as the west.
we rely fully upon Jehovah
To a JW by the name ‘Sean’: I came to know your sect and its true intentions fairly well in the past. It’ll be harder for you to take me to the ride than an ignorant poster here. Beware.
First of all, you do offend me, as a non-denominational Christian, by repeatedly stating that JW is a ‘religion’. I repeat and will repeat until you disappear from these pages: JW is NOT a religion because a sect that claims to base its ‘preaching’ on the Bible, which is a Holy Book of the Christian religion, cannot represent a separate religion by and of itself.
Second, Holy Bible, which ancient and modern translators rendered into one has been with Christian followers for many centuries, for instance, the 5th century Armenian translation, which foreign translators have acknowledged as ‘Queen of Translations’. If by ‘every Bible’ you meant every translation of the Bible or every original text of the Bible in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, then you should have been more cautious in choosing words. Are you a native English speaker? By reading ‘every Bible’ one can understand that you meant several Bibles. Take a precaution next time.
Third, your preaching differs in essence with what the Bible says. Like I said, I had personal experience with your incessant annoying visitors and came to know what you preach fairly well. In one word, it is a heresy. Camouflaged by verses from the Holy Bible, passages from Jesus and His apostles’ teachings, but a heresy, nonetheless. One strongest argument why I think it is a heresy is JWs’ prejudice towards the Holy Trinity as ONE Godhead. Mathew 28:19: ‘Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’ Have you ever come across this clear indication of Trinity in ‘your’ Bible?
Fourth, an analogy with Apostle Paul “interfering” in the way of life of the Jews, Pagans or Zoroastrians in spreading Christ’s word and obtrusive interference of JWs in the way of life of already established Christians are two divergently different things. Go preach in Israel or in the Muslim or in the Buddhist countries. I have the Bible and God-given brains to try to understand it. I don’t need a newly-popped sectarian perceived Christian like JWs to come and preach the Word of God to me as a Christian. When I’m in need for a fellowship I have my own likeminded friends who also have the Bible and God-given brains to try to understand it.
No, it is not God’s word. It is the misintrepreation of something that is much deeper. Your cult makes the same mistake as the fundamentalist Christians.
And I don’t know who this jehovah you are talking about but he ain’t gonna save you. As for Armenia, there is a reason that life began anew in the Armenian Highlands. I wouldn’t expect you to grasp the metaphysical though.
“AR: we live by a simple biblical rule
” “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” Acts: 5:29”
Yet you are criticizing JWs for not following men into war, which god dissaproves of?
Which way is it? You can’t slave for two masters.
emeth: thanks for providing the Azeri names: it supports your case to a degree.
However, the dates are old: [26 July 2006] [September 15, 2010]
What has JW done in Azerbaijan since those dates ?
Have you weakened Azerbaijan’s combat readiness to the same degree as you have done to Armenia’s ?
From the article above:
[His release came a year before the Armenian Alternative Service Act became law on July 1, 2004, which allowed conscientious objectors to opt for an alternative civilian service in place of the military.]
(In case you missed it: Armenia changed the law in 2004: Azerbaijan jailed a JW in 2010)
Have you done anything to stop the massive Azeri preparations for war of aggression against Artsakh and Armenia?
Have you done anything to stop the expenditure of US$3 Billion annually by Pres. Aliyev on purchases of offensive weapons to be used against Artsakh and Armenia?
Have you done any work on the International scene to prevent the extermination of Armenians ?
Have you done any work towards the worldwide recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
If you have, please provide links.
Thanks you.
Emeth,
will you help me understand why I should become a JW?
If you can, then I will.
Sean, YOU misread my first sentence and addressed it incorrectly. I did not suggest that the Jehovahs Witnesses were of those who perpetrated the Genocide of the Armenian nation.
My question was whether Jehovahs Witnesses, then too, were eliminated, as were the Armenians, via the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation…
Here is an idea – Jehovah Witnesses using their hundreds of millions strong membership and billions of dollars in assets tell the EU and the US that the economic and transportation blockade imposed on Armenia and Artsakh by Turkey and Azerbaijan is unlawful and must be eliminated or resolved by airlifts.
Azerbaijan constant war mongering has to be stopped and the leadership of this country that spends $ billions on weaponry instead of feeding its population should be brought to court!
The reason that JWs are all in Armenia instead of Turkey and Azerbaijan is that the Christian Armenians don’t cut their throats as Turks and Azeri Turks would do.
Interesting, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) accusing Armenia of violation of ‘freedom of thought’… what is the stance of this organization on Genocides – specifically of the Turkish Genocide of Christian nations – if any.
To begin with, I would like to say I actually cringe and get disgusted whenever the term ‘Jehova’s Witnesses’ and ‘Armenia’, and ‘Armenian’ are in close proximity together. Our forefathers and foremothers spilled their blood to give all the future generations of Armenians the privilege of keeping our holy Armenian Church and our Christian faith.
Armenia should first and foremost give that European “court” the middle finger! To begin with JW is not a religion, it is a cult, and Armenia should pass its own law outlawing this group for reasons of National Security.
And I have some bad news for all you JWs out there. According to your doctrine, only 144,000 spots are available in Heaven. So guess what, since your lousy 100 plus years of existence those spots have long been filled, and you are all going to Hell. That’s of course according to your pitiful, wicked, evil, and vile cult, and also according to my own religion, Apostolic Christian, not because of the number of spots, but because it is obvious you all do the Work of Satan on this planet.
Avery Great answer! I second that!
during these most critical times, when Mother Armenia is being deliberatly emptied of its Hay poupulation. In times when our military do not have the required armed personnel, equipment and calories to defend our motherland. In times when Armenia’s existence is blockaded by the turks and threatened from all four directions. In this critical moment of struggle for our existence, these neo christian (with zionist agendas) nutcases are preaching TO THE FIRST CHRISTIAN NATION IN THE WORLD!! TO THE ARMENIAN APOSTOLIC ILLUMINATED CHRISTIANS…that we must just lay out our necks and deliver ourselves for slaughter and finish once and for all what all empires in the world, egyptian, roman, persian, arab, ottoman, soviet and now this globalist empire could not accomplish, the EXTERMINATION OF THE ARMENIAN PEOPLE!
I find it so Christian that we tolerate the presence of JW in Armenia instead of departing them to baku for some peace preaching. What about their organizational leadership based in NEW YORK first persuades their government on which they are based in 1- to stop selling modern weaponry worth billions to most oppressive regimes in the world, above all turkey and azerbaijan? 2- what about you mobilize your entire Jehova preachers and scream out the events of 1915 as GENOCIDE so that a similar event does not happen to Armenians again?
but let me guess, the agenda you follow is not a christian one…but everybody knows what is your agenda….and believe me, one people you will not be able to tame and sheepify, are the ARMANS!!
Jesus did not take up arms or get involved with politics or armed conflict. Neither do Jehovah’s Witnesses as many of the comments here have already established. IT IS USELESS. Jesus also rebuked Peter when he took a sword to defend Jesus at his arrest.
(John 18:36) . . .Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”
Jehovah’s Witnesses understand your frustration and feelings of vulnerability from the many threats to your peace. We live in the same world as you and face the same daily challenges. However, we are aware that man’s way of resolving conflict is not sustainable. All human rulership is under the influence of Satan the Devil, the greatest war-mongerer ever! When Satan offered ALL the kingdoms of the world to Jesus if he did just ONE act of worship, Jesus did not argue that they were not his to give. Rather he simply quoted God’s Word;
(Luke 4:8) . . .In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to HIM ALONE you must render sacred service.’”
In other words, the Bible shows that participation in the worlds politics and armed forces is actually opposed to God’s Kingdom. Satans greedy spirit is reflected in the heartless promotion of weapons of murder that you point out are proliferated in most of the earth and the common man suffers as a result. This is an issue that involves sovereignty, not just of Armenia but the WHOLE WORLD. If you feel compassionate about your country, imagine how Jehovah God feels about the WHOLE earth. HE MADE IT!
So we support his kingdom through both prayer and political neutrality. We are also good citizens and all governments of the earth know that. Otherwise they would not extend the freedoms that they do. However, on the issue of sovereignty, we are a global community and will not take up arms against each other or you. It is not as matter of disrespect. It is evidence of our love of God and neighbour.
Sean, keep praying and preaching peace and to the turkic criminals, when the PANTURKIC threat to wipe out ARMENIA from the face of the earth has gone away, when you successfully convince the turks that the events of 1915 where not only unfortunate events but premeditated GENOCIDE, then we Armenians shall not form an army or go to military service, anyway, is not like we have fun going to army, we rather chill out and eat khorovadz and have a good time with our families!!
Why don’t you go NOW to the contact zone between Artsakh and Azerbaijan and convince the azeris to stop sniping?? Do you know how many innocent young Armenian lives we are loosing every year? Do you know of the young innocent shepherd the azeris kidnapped last year, tortured him, insulted him on television and then killed him?? Do you know of the chechen and islamic mercenaries hired to kill Armenians? DO YOU?? Do you know if it was not OUR BRAVE YOUNG SOLDIERS, we wouldve kissed our country GOODBYE looong ago?? DO YOU KNOW THAT? Maybe your kingdom is not of this world, as long as we are not able to leave to other planets, OUR KINGDOM IS ARMENIA-HAYASTAN, where the ONLY LORD HIMSELF, CHRIST INCARNATE, descended upon his people the ARMANIANS in theplace called ECH-MI-A-DZIN, literallly, the Descent of the only Begotten Son, it was here that the LORD marked the foreheads of his chosen people, the righteous Armenians, the first TRUE Christians.
To the JW by the name ‘Sean’: Since you failed to answer any of the points I made in my comment in regard to what you actually preach, as witnessed by myself, I invite you to stop making your interpretations to the first official Christians here of what Jesus said and what He didn’t. I might have read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation many more times than you. You don’t need to teach an already established Christian nation, which came into being as Christian in 301 AD, what we came to know from the Bible long before JWs popped up on the face of the Earth. Most importantly, we BELIEVE that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost represent the Holy Trinity: One God Head. I hope you, as newly-cooked ‘Christian’ will confirm this in one of your posts. If you don’t, as you cowardly avoided doing in your previous posts in reply to my comments, then not only myself but all readers here will conclude that you don’t believe in the most important Christian doctrine: the Holy Trinity. If you don’t accept this, then readers may conclude, as I have already, that JWs are essentially antichrists because you denigrate Jesus Christ as God, separating Him from God the Father. “No One Comes To the Father, But Through Me” John 14:6. Remember? Or ‘your’ Bible doesn’t contain this most imperative Christian postulate?
i see some of you say things like this,…
———————————-
“Why don’t you go NOW to the contact zone between Artsakh and Azerbaijan and convince the azeris to stop sniping??”
“What about their organizational leadership based in NEW YORK first persuades their government on which they are based in 1- to stop selling modern weaponry worth billions to most oppressive regimes in the world, above all turkey and azerbaijan?”
“The reason that JWs are all in Armenia instead of Turkey and Azerbaijan is that the Christian Armenians don’t cut their throats as Turks and Azeri Turks would do. ”
“Have you done anything to stop the massive Azeri preparations for war of aggression against Artsakh and Armenia?
“Have you done anything to stop the expenditure of US$3 Billion annually by Pres. Aliyev on purchases of offensive weapons to be used against Artsakh and Armenia?
Have you done any work on the International scene to prevent the extermination of Armenians ?”
——————————————–
We are present in Azerbajian and Turkey. And we preach and practice peace in those territories. We transform turks and azeri’s that were in deep ethnic armed conflicts of hatred into conscious objectors refusing any violence or millatary service.
We have Jehovah’s Witnesses imprisoned in Turkey, Azerbaijan and Armenia. Those men became brothers and as a result refused to kill eachother or any other human being. Like Sean explained we maintain a neutral point of view because Jesus instructed us to do so. Jesus and his followers gave a perfect example of that.
So there are peaceloving and peace practicing Azeri’s, Turks and Armans made every single day. They and all Jehovah’s Witnesses around the globe condemn things like war, ethnic conflicts, violence and genocides. We have numerous articles about that in our monthly magazines. There are no magazines on earth , not a single one that is printed is such big volumes and in that many languages.
Ask yourself,… if it is able for us to turn violent nationalistic people into non violent world citizens,.. even if they are paying the high price for that in many countries, like imprisonments, labour camps or worse.
Ask yourself then,.. Why does your church not get the same results? Why dont they turn people in life loving and neighbour loving,.. peace practicing people?
Why does your church not talk,… hope and work for one kingdom only? … Gods Kingdom.
Why do these so called christian churches cling onto power….. boast nationalism.. and even bless troops,…weapons and back up armed conflicts ? (countless examples of that throughout lets say the last 100 years full of destructive wars)
soon the time will come that
Matthew 7:16 By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? 17 Likewise every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit; 18 a good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit. 19 Every tree not producing fine fruit gets cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Really, then, by their fruits YOU will recognize those [men]. 21 “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will.
The will of the father is not….
war.. not violence… no hatred… no injustice…no corruption,…no murder and killings.. no nationalism,… no supression and so on.
All of you just read the four marvelous books that are about Jesus his life and after that see if you still are convinced that supporting nationalism and having hatred towards anyone is what jesus would like to see.
We have the courage to withstand any kind of pressure .. we do so all around the world. It was so in the past when in WWII we objected millitary service in the empire of Hitler as well as in the Allied nations.
We faced prison,.. concentration camps.. labour camps… banning to places like siberia.. ..the death penalty…you name it we have had it
Only because we refused to kill others .. just like Jesus commanded his followers.
At the same time Churches and clergy were and are kissing hands of dictators.. blessing troops,,, weapons and made the crowds ready for war and bloody conflicts in many many sunday sermons.
You can call us anything you want.. it does not bother me. Cause our hands and conscious are clean,.. we obeyed gods orders and followed Jesus example and we will continue to do so all around the globe.
236 countries and territories , printed literature and material in 500+ languages, and millions of people every day busy spreading the good news of Gods coming Kingdom in many ,.. many ways.
Gods coming Kingdom… it will come soon. It will get rid of all injustice… wars… violence .. anger.. evil.
“All of you just read the four marvelous books that are about Jesus his life and after that see if you still are convinced that supporting nationalism and having hatred towards anyone is what jesus would like to see.” —- Excuse me?! You, a bunch of newly-cooked cultic-sectarian ‘Christians’ tell us, Armenians, who adopted Christianity in 301AD, to read the gospels? Ugh… Outrageous!! We know for more than 1700 years what Jesus is teaching us. And in case you are mentally able to understand: what we feel for Turks and Azeris is not hatred. It is a righteous anger for the first genocide of the 20th century, in which the first Christian people on Earth was near-annihilated, and which went unrecognized and unpunished. This has nothing to do with nationalism and hatred. Don’t you read in ‘your’ Bible about a warning by Jesus to his followers that they should not offer biblical doctrine of love and tolerance to those who are unable to value and appreciate it? Now you go and read Matthew’s gospel: “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.” Matthew 7:6. Some newly popped-off cult members tell us to read the gospels… Preposterous! Has anyone of you answered, instead, if you believe in Holy Trinity? Huh, newly-cooked ‘Christians’? Do you or do you not? Instead of executing orders by globalists and internationalist power elites aimed at eradication of nations, state borders, and religions which JWs are advancing worldwide, answer: do you or do you not believe in Holy Trinity?!
Well said Paul jan and Artin jan… my blood pressure rises when I hear of JW and how they operate everywhere.. especially when it comes to Armenians… the first Christian Nation.. as you said, they are preaching us, the children of Christ.. They have misinterpreted our anger toward Turkish and Azeri govt and their denialists as hate… SERIOUSLY??? do these people even know their own history to understand why we demonstrate anger and frustration toward these govt?
Gayane
@ paul – I did not know I was obligated to respond to every post. Generally speaking, I don’t respond to insults or comments that make no sense or are just a condemnatory opinion with no scriptural authority. Jesus didn’t answer EVERY accusation either. But since it is important to you, I will respond to your points.
“It’ll be harder for you to take me to the ride than an ignorant poster here. Beware.” What ride? This makes no sense, so I don’t know how to respond.
“First of all, you do offend me, as a non-denominational Christian, by repeatedly stating that JW is a ‘religion’. I repeat and will repeat until you disappear from these pages: JW is NOT a religion because a sect that claims to base its ‘preaching’ on the Bible, which is a Holy Book of the Christian religion, cannot represent a separate religion by and of itself.”
I’m sorry if you are offended. I merely stated a fact that any encyclopedia will confirm, no matter how many times to repeat otherwise. Everyone on earth knows that Jehovah’s Witnesses preach with “Holy Book/Holy Scriptures/The Bible” or whatever phrase you prefer. We all know what it is. If you prefer to disagree, regardless of the evidence, there is no further comment I can make.
“Second, Holy Bible, which ancient and modern translators rendered into one has been with Christian followers for many centuries, for instance, the 5th century Armenian translation, which foreign translators have acknowledged as ‘Queen of Translations’. If by ‘every Bible’ you meant every translation of the Bible or every original text of the Bible in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, then you should have been more cautious in choosing words. Are you a native English speaker? By reading ‘every Bible’ one can understand that you meant several Bibles. Take a precaution next time.”
I’m glad you respect “Holy Bible”. So do I. Perhaps in Armenian there is only one translation. I did not know that; in English there are many translations, with slightly different renderings of the original languages, yet the meanings are the same. Thanks for the “precaution”.
“Third, your preaching differs in essence with what the Bible says. Like I said, I had personal experience with your incessant annoying visitors and came to know what you preach fairly well. In one word, it is a heresy. Camouflaged by verses from the Holy Bible, passages from Jesus and His apostles’ teachings, but a heresy, nonetheless. One strongest argument why I think it is a heresy is JWs’ prejudice towards the Holy Trinity as ONE Godhead. Mathew 28:19: ‘Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’ Have you ever come across this clear indication of Trinity in ‘your’ Bible?”
Yes, I have used this scripture, in fact, earlier in this thread. It is not typically used to support the Trinity doctrine, however (in fact the word “trinity” appears nowhere in “Holy Book”). It simply mentions the father, son and holy spirit in the same verse. The trinity teaches that these three are one; all are co-equal and co-eternal. This scripture does not make any such statement. I understand that this doctrine is important to you but in honesty, this is not the forum for such a debate. Many, many books and websites have already been dedicated to the subject. For example, this one explains my understanding well http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/ . As the many references indicate, the Trinity was not a teaching of the early church and evolved, in the face of internal church opposition over 100’s of years. Nevertheless, I do not judge a Christian merely by his belief in the Trinity. If he has God’s “spirit and truth” (John 4:23, 24) his conduct will imitate Jesus example. Jesus used the expression “by their fruits you will know them” (Matthew 7:20) to show his apostles that the truth should affect peoples conduct and their fruitage should be good works. In the context of this discussion. killing or even training to do so is hardly a “fruit” of a true Christian. If he is sponsored by his government, that does not legitimize it. And belief in the trinity does not justify it either. Most Nazi soldiers believed in the trinity too.
“Fourth, an analogy with Apostle Paul “interfering” in the way of life of the Jews, Pagans or Zoroastrians in spreading Christ’s word and obtrusive interference of Jehovah’s Witnesses in the way of life of already established Christians are two divergently different things. Go preach in Israel or in the Muslim or in the Buddhist countries. I have the Bible and God-given brains to try to understand it. I don’t need a newly-popped sectarian perceived Christian like JWs to come and preach the Word of God to me as a Christian. When I’m in need for a fellowship I have my own likeminded friends who also have the Bible and God-given brains to try to understand it.”
Where I live we already have Christians, Buddists, Muslims, atheists, etc and we preach to all of them. We preach, as another poster pointed out, in virtually every country of the world except two Muslim countries where it would be instant death. Hopefully, there, those with internet access will find our websites which have downloadable information (including “Holy Bible”) in 500 languages. I’m glad you have like-minded friends. We all do. But would you not agree that limiting ourselves to only those people does not exactly challenge our thinking? Apostle Paul said to “keep testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are.” (2 Corinthians 13:5) Paul spoke to EVERYONE about his faith, just as I have taken the time to do. Rather than simply restating that you disagree, if you must comment, please explain why, prefereably from “Holy Bible”. That way, there is no reason for anyone to be offended. We can all learn from each other in a spirit of respect.
Artin, your comments are understood very clearly. Yet I find in them a dichotomy. You are proud of your heritage. That is good. That heritage includes a faith in Christ Jesus. That is very good. However, you do not grasp the meaning of his kingdom. Your REAL allegiance is to your human government, NOT Jesus kingdom. This seems very inconsistent to me. Are you a Christian or not? Would you not prefer one peaceful worldwide government to a world divided by 100’s of selfish/ powerless human rulers that cannot prevent war and suffering? Jesus would not tell us to pray for his kingdom to come to the earth, if his had no intention of answering those prayers would he? Your comments were interesting and as time allows I will research more about your points. Nevertheless, I see no justification for turning my back on Christ’s promise.
The spirit of many critical posters here is similar to the Jews who felt confident that they had a temple dedicated to God and thought that he would always protect them. But by the time Jesus came to earth as the Messiah, their traditions had become more important than their faith and they murdered him to protect their traditions. Has your church not explained the kingdom to you and given you a hope of something better than what you experience now? If it is “righteous” as you say, it should do what is “right”. That means preaching and teaching the good news of Christ’s kingdom. “Let your kingdom come. Let your will be done, AS IN heaven, ALSO UPON EARTH”. (Matthew 6) God’s will is to rule the entire earth by his kingdom and removing ALL human governments that oppose his rulership. That is the ONLY way Armenians and the rest of us will enjoy real peace.
and I heard that JWs are the nicest sweetest calm and peaceful people who are very persistent.. they have to be that way to win people over.. otherwise they will not the numbers that they have… they are basically harassing the people to the point where they either give up and join, or throw them out of their houses… I have had the similar situation as well as my mother who absolutely was livid when she encountered such people trying to convert her to JW….
Dear Sean and Paul..
Few questions…
1. If you consider yourselves as Christ’s children… why not call yourself Christians? Why do you call yourselves JW???
2. Is it because you believe JWs are higher and mightier than Christians and you felt you had to separate yourselves from us??
3. How do you explain a set number of seats in the JW’s doctrine??? Who came up with that number? Did God decide how many seats He is going to make available for JWs? Did God decide which JW belongs and will claim a seat in his throne?? Our God, our Jesus Christ does not put limits as to who can win a seat in his kingdom..
But why a certain number of seats? I was under the impression when one becomes JW, you automatically get a seat.. If not, then that tells me not ALL JWs who join this cult are true followers of Christ/God… If not, then what is the point of preaching purity, peace, love and harmony???
4. Be honest.. What do you offer those who decide to convert into JW? What are the benefits? I know they are some that exist otherwise why would anyone, especially the Armenians, want to convert .. to separate themselves from their true religion, Christianity….. I just want to hear directly from the horse’s mouth…
Just curious…
Gayane
Sean, you perceive the dichotomy in my words because you do not know me yet in person, and also I cannot write all my thoughts into a news forum.
1- The good news that Christ has preached exclusively related to the Kindom of Heavan, is a subject of Theological, Philosphical and Spiritual discussion. As a matter of fact, Jesus Christ spoke about it in many forms of parables. Only the Christian interpretations of it vary according to the various Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Evangelic, Jehovah Witness, Latter Day Saints, Armenian Apostolic, Seventh Day, Mormons so forth and so on). For any of these groups to claim exclusive understanding of the Kingdom of God is a delusion and shows a lack of understanding of the true meaning. Mind you that even the Muslims and Jews have their own berliefes on God’s Kingdom, the Budhists and Hindus have very precise descriptions on the heavenly and earthy triple dimensions Trikaya: Nirmanakaya, Sambhogakaya and Dharmakaya, moreover, every individual has his/her own understanding of the Christ’s message. God’s Kindgom belongs to all humanity and no particular group has a monopoly over the message of Christ. But as an Armenian, we are proud to be the first nation to have adopted the Lords message, simply because we felt affinity to his words and was a natural continuation of our previous traditions that was merciful, forgiving, empowering, kind and selfless. Let me add, that Armenians did not become Christians in the year 301AD, but as early as the year 33AD King Abgar V iof Edessa (Armenian Mesopotomia, emptied from its Armenian population during the genocide of 1915) and now occupied by the Turks renamed into town of Sanliurfa. Abgar having heard of the Christ wrote a letter offering him refuge from the persecution thereof, the Christ gladly oredered a correspondence to be written back to King Abgar, thanking him for his offer and promises him to send one of his disciples after haviong accomplished that which he has come down to Earth for. The Armenians were Christians already during such old times, and king Abgar asked from the kings of Persia, Assyria, Rome to spread the word of Christ and demand that the authorities reprimand the Jewish authorities for the Crucifixion and to stop persecuting Christians. Bottomline “The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is within you.” So I don’t think I need much instruction on the Kingdom, I have a brain and a heart, and the words of the Christ speak of itself.
Our alliance is not to human governments as you accuse us, but through connecting with our fellow humans on Earth we shall pave our way to the Heavans. Whenever we see innocent lives suffering, tortured and murdered, it is only our Christly strength, courage and fearlesness of Death that we jump for the rescue of the defenseless, the victims the weak. True, prayer comes first, butsince we live on this Earthly world, we have to engage ourselves in Earthly affairs, we have to promote Truthfulness, kindness, justice….we have to be stewards of this planet, of the animals, of the eco systems, the forests….we have to be steadfast in our struggle against the destructive forces of the world, we have to be vigilant.
Dear Sean, this was recently released by the vatican regarding the Armenian events of 1915….the prefect of the Secret Archives, Monsignor Sergio Pagano, describe “in detail” the “procedures of torture that the Turks used towards the Armenians”. For example, he said, there is evidence of how the soldiers of the Sublime Porte would bet “on the sex of fetuses in the wombs of pregnant women before they quartered them and with the same knife killed the babies”.
When you see such torture, such barbarism in front of your own eyes, answer me in Heaven’s name, what do you do?? Will you not jump for rescue, will you not sacrifice yourself? Will you not defend the defenceless from such horrors?? Maybe you will not. That’s the difference between us and JW, we will not stand by and let the innocent suffer, not on Earth, neither in Heaven.
Our church, like many others has its own flaws, but mind you we had wonderful Patriarchs through which the Christs spirit was manifest and alive. It was our Church after the genocide that gathered the flock around it and prevented the complete dissapearance of the Armenian people. It was the church who established Armenian schools throughought the world, churches and social gatherings, festivities and Armenian language, it is to this Church we are indebted that we still exist. It is to our Immortal heroes, Hayk Nahabet, Vardan Mamigonian, General Andranik, Garegin Njdeh, Monte Melkonian to whom we are indebted that the Armenian Christian Nation still exists immortal like our heroes who offered their own lives to save their nation and faith!! Search each of those names I listed here, read their stories, how the Armenian will preferred DEATH over conversion into Islam or Zoroastrianism or or or… If we did not have such heroes we would have been a muslim nation loooong ago, sandwhiched between Azerbaijan and Turkey, we are the thorn of the Pan Turkic dream that extends from turkey to central Asia!! What heroes!! What selfless illimunated beings, all the time outnumbered, with incredibly little equipment, armour and resources we DEFENDED our nation from exctintion, from conspiracy of World powers!!
That same government which commited the first genocide f the 20th century is still in power today!! not recognizing their guilt, struck with amnesia about its own history, so is the world!! Where is the European Court from condemning the genocide of 1915?? How come they remember the story of one man imprisoned for only 10 month because he ran away from defending his homeland…whereas they forgeth the massacre of 1.5 million and the deportation of another 2 millions from their home?? Where is teh internation court of justice in the Hague from all this??
This is what we scream day and night “Let your kingdom come. Let your will be done, AS IN heaven, ALSO UPON EARTH”. May humanity make peace with itself and finally recognize this horrible genocidek, only then, the Armeians shall forgive, because we follow the doctrine of Christ of forgiveness, but not now!! How can we forgive when the criminal does not recognize his own guilt, to forgive now will be surrender, will be from a position of weakness. But if Jehovah’s witnesses, spread the Armenian message and crimes to the world, and given your numbers you are able to do this, when the world recognizes this Genocide- The Intentional Extermination of the FIRST Christian people in the world, only then their will be real peace on Earth, only then shall criminals reveal their true face.
Here is some statistics for you as to the number of JW activists in the 3 countries
Country Population Publishers Congregations Av. Bible Studies Attendance Percentage
Armenia 3250000 11123 123 9367 24693 0,76
Azerbaijan 8922300 924 7 158 2148 0,02
Turkey 71500000 2074 27 1207 3862 0,01
As you see, your churh is VERY active in Armenia with a much larger percentage of attendance in comparison to turkey and azerbaijan. We know that for the turks to tolerate your activities is just to save their face from europeans, to give a sense of religious freedom. We ourselves know that Armenians are not allowed to elect their own church leaders, to pray in our anicent Chruches, people are killed only because of their religion and ethnicity, unlike what happens in Armenia.
And then, if Jehovah’s witnesses are such a succesful model of promoting peace and love, then how come that the country with your strongest presence in (2.5 million attendees), I mean the US, is the most agressive nation in the world with war fronts spread throughout the four globes??
And then I do not understand why should somebody become a Jehovah witness, considering there are 7.5 million active publishers through the world and 18 million attendees, but of which only 144 thousand shall be saved and resurrected into the eternal presence of God?? That means you already are in competition among yourselves and there is no room left for new recruits!!
Our doctrine promises salvation for all mankind with equal potential regardless of race, religion, creed. What matters is a pure heart, selflessness, goodness, love for mankind, nature and life. To be a true man, honest, brave, fearless. In Armenian we have a saying which goes,
MAH IMMATSYAL, ANMAHUTYUN. Knowing about death, dying for a cause…we shall achieve immortality.
Sean, I am willing to grab your hand escort you to the contact line where mercenaries are offered financial trophies for shooting Armenians and wait for the slightest opportunity to invade uis and finish what the turks did not finish. If you can convert those snipers to peace loving Christians, I will be the first to convert to a Jehovah witness, otherwise, you better stay away from our land and stop brainwashing our youth to run away from dfefending their homeland.
May the Spirit of God be with you and your family, may the reign of the supreme judge come nearer.
excellent post Artin: the table of statistics cuts thru the fog being thrown up by JWs.
If per-capita levels were in the same ballpark for Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Turkey , JWs might have a leg to stand on.
But the table clearly shows the huge disparity of JWs penetration in each target country.
Looking at the numbers dispassionately, JWs are succeeding in ‘non-violencing’ Armenia, while they have negligible effect on Azeris and Turks.
They are ‘non-violencing’ the victims of aggression, while they have no effect on the aggressors, who have a demonstrated proclivity to aggression and mass murder.
And finally, this quote from Sean’ August 10, 2011 post is very telling:
‘We preach, as another poster pointed out, in virtually every country of the world except two Muslim countries where it would be instant death.’ (emphasis mine).
Apparently instant death for 10s of thousands, maybe 100s of thousands of Armenians would be OK, which would unquestionably be the case if Armenian fighting men lay down their arms, while Azeris and Turks are armed to the teeth.
Avery, exactly: target countries. Armenia being one of the most important ones. Because we are the first Christians. Because Armenians are influential worldwide. Because the prevailing number of Armenian Christians are adherents of the Armenian Apostolic Church. Because we have issues that the international community fails to resolve: recognition of the genocide of the first Christian nation and guarantees for safety of Artsakh. Because we are situated in a turbulent regional environment where the interests of not only immediate neighbors, but also Russia, the U.S., and Israel collide. Because there are sinister globalist forces, Satanists in their essence, whose one goal on the agenda is eradication of religions, Christianity being the strongest amongst them. Sean and the likes may mumble whatever they want, but they are just puppets. As for puppet-masters, they created JW and use them to weaken Christendom, decrease the level of Armenian patriotism, which they call ‘nationalism’, demoralize and weaken the Armenian public from within by whipping up non-conscription ideas which they call ‘Christ-like non-violence’. Imagine what would happen to Armenia and Artsakh if we show Christ-like non-combatant goodness to the barbarian tribes to the east and the west? Christ is warning us about such cases when He says: “Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces.” Matthew 7:6.
Artin- WOW.. simply WOW.. I got teary eyed when I read your post… I am absolutely blown away how of an excellent post yours is.. BRAVO.. Thank you very much.. You hit the same question as I did in my post about the 144,000 seats …. Let’s see how they answer that one…
Bravo again…
Gayane
To a JW by the name Sean: Before anything else… What is this ‘business’ of putting Holy Bible or Holy Book in quotes in your comments?! Are you trying to denigrate the Bible by putting it in quotes? Again, are you a native English speaker/writer?
Further, if you post comments here it must be understood that you are, in a way, obligated to respond, because very many people have opinions incompatible to yours and your buddies at JW. If you feel not obligated to respond to their posts then just evaporate from these pages because no one likes to hear monologues. This is a discussion forum. If you prefer monologues, go position yourself in front of a mirror and practice, OK?
Not only me, but all mainstream Christians disagree that JW are a religion, I don’t care what encyclopedias say. Encyclopedias, or any other publications, are man creations. I know, and all mainstream Christians know that a sect which uses Holy Bible fro preaching cannot represent a separate religion of itself because the Bible is the Holy Book of the Christian religion. If you want to present yourselves as a separate religion, ask one of people who created JW to write one or go to India and worship cows.
Also, please refrain from using the offensive expression ‘your Bible’ or ‘every Bible’. This is a blasphemy to categorize the Word of God into several interpretations. Beware of this. Translations differ, but the Bible itself as the Word of God is ONE. I know JWs prefer the New World Translation because this translation emphasizes what they want to hear: God the Father being superior to Jesus Christ. Sheer blasphemy!
About the Christian doctrine of the Trinity that defines God as three divine persons. Yes, although the New Testament doesn’t use the word ‘Trinity’, it provides the material upon which the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated. The diverse references to God, Jesus, and the Spirit found in the New Testament were systematized into a Trinity—one God subsisting in three persons and one substance—to combat heretical tendencies—such as those of JWs—of how the three are related and to defend the Church against charges of worshiping two or three gods.
There are many direct references to Trinity in the Bible. Here are a few of them, for your information, in case you didn’t come accross them in ‘your’ Bible:
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mathew 28:19)
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (Paul’s blessing in 2 Corinthians 13:14)
“As soon as Jesus Christ was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and landing on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.’” (Mathew 3:16-17, Luke 3:22, John 1:32)
“The angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the Holy Child shall be called the Son of God.'” (Luke 1:35)
“How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!” (Hebrews 9:14)
“But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55)
“The Spirit of Him (God) who raised Jesus from the dead,” (Romans 8:11)
“All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God” (Romans 8:14-17)
“The Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” (Romans 8:26-27)
The way the New Testament repeatedly speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is such as to compel a trinitarian understanding of God.
By the way, does the word Jehovah’s Witnesses appear in the Holy Bible in the way that the followers of Jesus Christ should abandon their name as Christians and become jehovah’s witnesses? Would be curious to know…
“Where I live we already have Christians, Buddists, Muslims, atheists, etc and we preach to all of them. We preach, as another poster pointed out, in virtually every country of the world except two Muslim countries where it would be instant death.”
I believe Artin and Avery handled this misrepresentation of yours exceptionally well. No comments.
@ Paul
“To a JW by the name Sean: Before anything else… What is this ‘business’ of putting Holy Bible or Holy Book in quotes in your comments?! Are you trying to denigrate the Bible by putting it in quotes? Again, are you a native English speaker/writer?”
I don’t know about Armenian grammar rules but in english quotation marks indicate that you are quoting the words of someone else. Rather than denigrating (I’m not sure why you would think that) it honours the person being quoted. If you scan this thread, you will see that peoples OPINIONS are often cited but not many scriptural authorities. If I quote a scripture, you can look it up yourself (which most people don’t bother to do) but I make it easier for you if I include the quotation. It is a form of respect. But I also could ask why you use quotation marks around “business”. You are asking to clarify something I never said.
“Further, if you post comments here it must be understood that you are, in a way, obligated to respond, because very many people have opinions incompatible to yours and your buddies at JW. If you feel not obligated to respond to their posts then just evaporate from these pages because no one likes to hear monologues. This is a discussion forum. If you prefer monologues, go position yourself in front of a mirror and practice, OK?”
OK but as I’ve already pointed out, Jesus did not answer every disrespectful or antagonistic question either. I don’t think he worried about a mirror. Also, I have already stated that english is my mother tongue.
Not only me, but all mainstream Christians disagree that JW are a religion, I don’t care what encyclopedias say. Encyclopedias, or any other publications, are man creations. I know, and all mainstream Christians know that a sect which uses Holy Bible fro preaching cannot represent a separate religion of itself because the Bible is the Holy Book of the Christian religion. If you want to present yourselves as a separate religion, ask one of people who created JW to write one or go to India and worship cows.
OK, so you don’t care AND are you wrong. So why should I respond?
Also, please refrain from using the offensive expression ‘your Bible’ or ‘every Bible’. This is a blasphemy to categorize the Word of God into several interpretations. Beware of this. Translations differ, but the Bible itself as the Word of God is ONE. I know JWs prefer the New World Translation because this translation emphasizes what they want to hear: God the Father being superior to Jesus Christ. Sheer blasphemy!
Wow. I shouldn’t refer you “your Bible” but you can. And I can’t use the NWT because you won’t accept it either. Please tell me what authority I CAN use that you would approve of. I speak english and french only so it will have to be one of those.
About the Christian doctrine of the Trinity that defines God as three divine persons. Yes, although the New Testament doesn’t use the word ‘Trinity’, it provides the material upon which the doctrine of the Trinity was formulated. The diverse references to God, Jesus, and the Spirit found in the New Testament were systematized into a Trinity—one God subsisting in three persons and one substance—to combat heretical tendencies—such as those of JWs—of how the three are related and to defend the Church against charges of worshiping two or three gods.
There are many direct references to Trinity in the Bible. Here are a few of them, for your information, in case you didn’t come accross them in ‘your’ Bible:
“Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Mathew 28:19)
“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (Paul’s blessing in 2 Corinthians 13:14)
“As soon as Jesus Christ was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and landing on him. And a voice from heaven said, ‘This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.’” (Mathew 3:16-17, Luke 3:22, John 1:32)
“The angel answered and said to her, ‘The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the Holy Child shall be called the Son of God.’” (Luke 1:35)
“How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!” (Hebrews 9:14)
“But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55)
”The Spirit of Him (God) who raised Jesus from the dead,” (Romans 8:11)
“All who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God” (Romans 8:14-17)
“The Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.” (Romans 8:26-27)
The way the New Testament repeatedly speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is such as to compel a trinitarian understanding of God.
Since you have forbidden me to you either your Bible or mine, I cannot clarify these scriptures for you, with the authority of Gods word. I can tell you however, that you are not quoting from the NWT, which you claim to be. Further, these scriptures do not compel belief in the Trinity at all! They merely refer to three entities. The Trinity teaches that they are coequal and coeternal. Absolutely NONE of these scriptures supports that doctrine. If I am allowed an illustration, my father used to call me and my two brothers for supper by name. That in no way suggested we were all the same person or coequal or coeternal. If you believe they are three persons, please tell me the personal names of the Father (Jehovah?) and the Son (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit(?). You will have to quote the Bible, as an authority, since I am not allowed.
By the way, does the word Jehovah’s Witnesses appear in the Holy Bible in the way that the followers of Jesus Christ should abandon their name as Christians and become Jehovah’s witnesses? Would be curious to know…
Isaiah 43:9,10. You will have to look it up since you have forbidden me.
“Where I live we already have Christians, Buddists, Muslims, atheists, etc and we preach to all of them. We preach, as another poster pointed out, in virtually every country of the world except two Muslim countries where it would be instant death.”
I believe Artin and Avery handled this misrepresentation of yours exceptionally well. No comments”.
Thanks.
well said paul: I understand, and know quite well who the puppet-masters are.
re: “Imagine what would happen to Armenia and Artsakh if we show Christ-like non-combatant goodness to the barbarian tribes to the east and the west?”
Actually we don’t have to imagine it at all: we have stark side-by-side events, separated by only a few decades. Our brothers in Ottoman Turkey believed the lies of the Turks and allowed themselves to be disarmed. We know what happened next.
Artsakhtsi knowing about 1915, wisely decided: “If we are going to get wiped out, we are taking a whole bunch of you Azeri-Tatars with us”. And we also know what was the outcome of that decision. Instead of now trying to convince the so-called World Community to bring to justice those who had exterminated another 200,000 Armenians in Artsakh – a virtual certainty in case of non-resistance (…violent, armed resistance at that) – our brothers and sisters are alive and well, multiplying and thriving in fact – and more secure than they have been in centuries.
Ok friends..
Here is my plan…
I am going to create a newly organized religion called ” Gayaneism”….This religion will dictate the following:
– No taxes
-No fees
– No Bills
Let the govt come and tell me I have to pay taxes, i have to pay fees and i have to pay bills.. I will sue them just like JW did for improsening the guy who did not want to bear arms… Cool huh????
but it Sounds absurd right? Well because it is..Can you imagine if I created such a religion and I tell US govt forget YOU, i am not paying a penny because my religion does not allow me to do so…. HA…
Every person has the RIGHT to practice any religion but they have NO RIGHT to go against the country’s govt regulations/requirements because you live in THAT COUNTRY ..IF you don’t like the way they are doing business, example servin in military then GET OUT OF THAT COUNTRY…THe govt of the certain country SHOULD have some saying in such matters…..Religion can’t be above the govt law when it comes to such things…. but in JWs case we are not talking about religion.. we are talking about an organized cult.. so even more so inappropriate to rule against the Armenian govt for requireing the man to serve in the Army..
Gayane
I don’t know many scriptures but some scriptures that I’m familiar with that tells us how Christians should’nt behave and act are found in Galations 5:19-21. Galations 5:22-23 tells us the qualities that Christians should have. It’s very apparant by the tone and disrespect of some of the comments made by some of the comments by people espousing hatred towards those not caught up in nationalistic fervor that they have a long way to go before they can be called true Christians.
:
Harry.. it is unfortunate that you are completely missing the point of this discussion.. Maybe you should reread the posts again and try to understand what we are trying to display here.. there is no “hate” here.. Why you people keep bringing that word up over and over.. just because we are speaking out and against aburd matters like JW it does not mean we hate them.. we are simply pointing out the faults and heresy behind what they are trying to do here.. you understand now?
Hate and Armenians don’t go hand in hand…. and by you bringing this word up tells me you are trying to stir something up.. not cool..
Gayane
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (“Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ”) (Matthew 22:21). (from Wiki)
Harry: No hate, whatsoever. After all, Armenians and hate are incompatible and irreconcilable notions. If Armenians hated, JWs wouldn’t feel themselves relatively safe in Armenia as opposed to Turkey and Azerbaijan and two other Muslim countries where they wouldn’t go because they’d face istant death. But there are certain threats to the mainstream Christianity, and we, as first Christians, react by means of defending our centuries-long Bible-based beliefs. If these beliefs are disagreeable with the interpretations of a sect and if this sect is being largely rejected in the world for its interpretations, why do you call this “hatred”?! I personally don’t hate, but I’ll defend Jesus in any way I can. He saved me many times in my life when tragedy was inevitable, and I won’t allow anyone to denigrate the Son of God. FYI: 2 Corinthians 11:13 also tells us what and whom we, Christians, should behold.
Gayane: I think I have another plan. Mine is completely Bible-based, Christ-like behavior-resembling plan that JWs will find hard to neglect. Why won’t we suggest newly-cooked JW ‘Christians’ to preach abstinence not from military service, but from barter trade, money-lending, credit card purchases, bank loans that accrue interest, etc.? Doesn’t it say in the Bible: “And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves.” Mathew 21:12 (King James Bible Translation)
Harry:
That’s just it. You don’t know!
I just realized that if JWs preached abstinence from barter trade, money-lending, credit card purchases, bank loans, etc., just like Jesus did and acted against, their Big Money creators in New York would get v-e-e-ry upset. But preaching abstinence from serving in the army in target countries works like a charm: the more demoralized and militarily weak these nations are, the easier for Big Money guys to fish in troubled waters. Isn’t this so, newly-minted JW sectarians, huh?
Obviously a raw nerve was touched in the responders to my comment. If you look at the wording of some of these comments the LONG SUFFERING, KINDNESS, MILDNESS mentioned in Galations 5:22-23 is missing from some of these comments to the point that disrespect and some undertones of hate have crept in. I expected that the responders would get very Defensive. Please read these scripures and take a deep analyzing breath. Peace to you all.
Another question I have for JW is this? If you are so powerful and effective, and grand in numbers especially in US, why is it that being a Christian in USA feels just like an outlaw… why is that we no longer can freely pray in our schools…???? I guess you have not done a great job of teaching population in US.. this overrides your explanation of ‘good deed” “following God’s word” “changing people to be better”…I don’t see that happening in USA… Any thoughts?
Gayane
Thank you, Harry, for a valuable yet belated advice. Armenians have been reading scriptures for more than 1700 years, longer than anyone else on the Earth. You too, please read them and take a deep analyzing breath not only when reading about the qualities that Christians should have, but also what dangers they should be aware of and resist in the name of Christ Jesus, as in 2 Corinthians 11:13.
Gayene. That’s simple. The majority of those Jesus spoke to rejected his message. And he was JESUS. So we as Christians know most people will reject our message. While most people are satisfied to simply follow the mainstream, it is sobering that the Bible itself bluntly states that most people are wrong in their religious assumptions.
(Matthew 7:13-14) “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.”
Archer.. you completely lost me.. i don’t see a correlation of what I asked and what you gave me.. sorry.. Please be more precise as to what question you are referring to…
Gayane
Harry you are a lost child… I think you should turn to Jesus Christ and find yourself… The way you write makes no sense whatso ever…sorry
Archer: This discussion is not about those Jesus spoke to who rejected his message and your implication that JW sect has some ‘message’ as a result of their lousy 100 years of existence that mainstream Christians missed throughout 1700 to 2000 years of their following the path of Jesus. This discussion is about the fact that the interpretation of the Word of God by JWs is essentially heretical. Attaching prominence to God the Father and thus distancing and denigrating Christ Jesus as a divine person who, together with the Holy Ghost, distinctly coexists in unity as co-equal, co-eternal, and consubstantial GOD, is a sheer blasphemy. Is this your ‘message’? “I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but trough me” John 14:6 (King James Bible Translation). How many times have you read this in ‘your’ Bible? How many times?!
Paul u keep repeating that JW’s are not in Turkey and Azerbajian… but you are wrong . We are in those countries and also have our legal battles there.
We object millitary service in those countries too. We preach the good news of Gods kingdom there too and most important we are making brothers and sisters over there.
Dear Gayane jan, You think and express your thoughts the very same way I do, as if we were both brought up by the same parents and with the true essence of Armenian chulture, thought process and psyche. I can’t get over it the joy that I feel at this moment!!!
I admit that i am not in authority of Jevoha witnesses but just from reading a good part of the posts here it is appaling to hear that the JW’s give themselves the authority of Godliness to proclaim that only 144 members would go to heaven. Who are they to proclaim that? God? It is in the scriptures that after being baptised, accepting Christ as your savior and finally accepting salvation and repenting, an individual will only be allowed to be accepted as God’s child and in heaven with God and God the Son when he/she lives a Godly or acceptable of a Godly life in the eyes of God Himself. No one but no man made of human flesh shall be able to know ahead of time what God’s judgment. That will come only when he/she passes away and his/her spirit then is for God to judge what and where it will go. I repeat: only God decides what shall become of the human soul after he/she dies, no one else but God Himself.
Based only on this doctrine of the Jehovah Witnesses I say it is bogus what they preach and that is why we Armenians the first Christian nation to accept Christianity we believe in the Three: God Almighty, God the Son and the Holy Spirit. We are thus, Apostolic Christians and we believe in Christ Who believes the same. It looks to me that anyone who doesn’t wish to fight in a small and newly liberated, blockaded country who’s both neighbours are sheer troublemakers: thanks to Turkey and Azerbaijani/Tatars, every Armenian of age who doesn’t wish to fight for such a country that calls his homeland and needs desperately for young men and sometimes women too to fight is a troublemaker and I stand with Armenia’s judicial laws 100%.
I probably said my story that it is the absolute truth before. I have learned unfortunately about the Artsakh war much later as I was struggling with my life on a couple of fronts. I became pregnant newly pregnant and I was very happy about it, then I heard about the Artsakh war and some Armenian men going from France and Lebanon and Syria to fight for our lands and for our people. Suddenly for days I became very sad and I told my mother then that although I am happy now that I am pregnant with a child but at the same time I wish the timing was a different one as I also wish to go to Artsakh to fight for our anscestral homeland along with my brothers but I am not able now as I am pregnant. I am a woman and yet I was born and lived all my life outside of Wetern and Eastern Armenia. I only know one thing however: my ingenious and good people have had such sad history that has been unjustly persecuted, killed and thrown out of their homeland and I so wish to go and give a hand to my brethren who were struggling to get our own lands back to the indigenous people and who were being killed by the beastly Azerbaijani/Tatar animal mobs. How can this 18 or 20 year old man sits in Armenia, eats Armenian food, drinks from our Arax’ waters and not go and fight for his land for Armenia? Indeed I am with the Armenian authorities and the government of Armenia for seeing that those JW’ or anyone else of age that doesn’t want to give a hand to protect their own lands is jailed as they deem to see it fit.
No, it is you who are wrong, Emeth. It’s not me who’s repeating that JW’s are not in Turkey and Azerbaijan. I keep repeating that your interpretation of the Holy Book of Christendom is a heresy and your putting more emphasis on God the Father thus denigrating Christ Jesus is a sheer blasphemy. You are essentially antichrists.
The ones who repeatedly expose the huge disparity of JWs penetration in Armenia as compared to Turkey and Azerbaijan are Artin and Avery. Wideopen your eyes and scroll up the page.
thanks Paul for the mention. However, the credit for the eye-opening numbers regarding JWs penetration levels is due entirely to Artin’s excellent research material: I only referenced his data in my post.
and Emeth regarding ‘…We are in those countries and also have our legal battles there..’
You certainly are in those countries. But the phrase ‘…We are in those countries..’ is vacuous. You can have 10 people in one country, and 100,000 in another, and can legitimately claim you are in both countries. But what does that mean really ?
Please review the table that Artin produced in his post, and let us know if you think the levels of JWs penetration are equitable. If you believe the numbers are incorrect, then publicly challenge them on these pages.
But here is what I see: in absolute numbers basis, the levels of penetration between Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Turkey are grossly out of line – with massive penetration in Armenia.
On a per-capita basis, that level of penetration can only be the result of a well organized, well financed program to destroy the Armenian spirit of Citizens of RoA, which will eventually lead to the physical destruction of RoA, and all Armenians living there. The same type of ‘instant death’ that prevents JWs from being present in the 2 unnamed Muslim counties that JWs are not present in.
How noble of JWs to worry about instant death for their members, but not be too concerned about the eventual fate of 3-4 million Armenians in RoA.
Sean,
give it up. Time to “shake the dust off of your feet” at them. They are quite zealous for their Babylonish teachings and unwilling to see reason. A “zeal for God but without accurate knowledge.”
You have sounded the warning and bore witness. They will have to stand on their own, in the final hour.
Seervart jan… Astvats qez pahapan… We are blessed to you someone like you in our nation…Yes el chem asum about Avery, Gor, Artin, Boyajian, Katia, Karo, AR (brown avatar), Paul and everyone else who have been here with us fighting against such unjust and FAKE people and cultures and history…you are a true Armenian .. God’s daughter…
God Bless… In Jesus’es Name AMEN….
Gayane
Gayane jan, Asdvads el kez yev ayn polorin annunnere vor neshetsir vereve bahe char martotsme, char jamere, yev abrik poloret al ayt kach anushig 106 daregan Hay mamigi neman yergar mi gyank unenak vor zoravik ganknik mer Hay azkin yev mer tavanankin.
Avery jan, When I read it first I was thinking the same as you that these JW’s wish to separate and disperse us, that’s why they are in our tiny bit of a country that many. If I was the president of AR I’ll throw them all out.
Dears Artin and Paul, I read your enlightening articles and of course I agree with you both. Thank you.
Dear Artin, What you mentioned aboe in your post about the secret archives of Monsignor Sergio Pagano about his descriptive barbaric events of 1915 how the Turkish gendarmes used to cut Armenian women’s abdomen to see whether the baby is a boy or a girl; it happened the same thing to my maternal grandmother’s cousin who was pregnant for 8 months. Of course the gendarmes killed her and her unborn baby on the spot and in-front of my 18 year old grandmother who was three months pregnant with my mother in 1922 when Kemal Ataturk entered Izmir, Smyrna and had 130,000 Armenians annihilated and then he . Furthermore,
Artin jan, To finish my story above, Ataturk after having 130,000 Armenians annihilated in 1922 in Izmir, he had the Greek population annihilated. The Turk gendarmes were hitting my 18 year old pregnant grandmother on her shoulder with the other side of their gun when my grandmother’s three year old nephew interfered and told the gendarmes not to hit her. The gendarmes beheaded the three year old boy in-front of her mother and her aunt. Today is the same thing, if Russia was not in the region, both the Azeri/Tatars and the Turks would enter Armenia and Artsakh and barbarically kill Armenians for their pan-turanism sick dreams. The same thing happened just recently, from 1988 to 1994 when the Azeri/Tatars barbaricaly and atrociously killed 200,000 civilian Armenians to get rid of the Armenians from Azerbaijan made up country that Stalin the devil gave it to them to appease Kemal Ataturk a mere 100 years ago. How can Armenians trust either one of them and not carry their guns about them and protect themselves and their families for the sake of protection and survival of their skin and of their children? I am quite sure that God and God the Son our Christ would want us to protect ourselves against the barbarity and the beastly swines so that we’ll survive and do good for ourselves and for all mankind; because we are a very smart and a very peaceful nationality.
Artin, abrees… Jehovah’s Witnesses shall go to the nations that are not Christian.- the non-Christians and not the Christian Armenians – historically, first nation to accept Christianity as their national religion… through all its history since 301 A.D. Through all the years, all the horrors of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation… still bearing the abuse of the Turks, and now Azeris, but chose dying, rather than become muslims!!
Seervart, correction, by your leave.
re: “from 1988 to 1994 when the Azeri/Tatars barbaricaly and atrociously killed 200,000 civilian Armenians” . (emphasis mine)
They attempted, but fortunately failed.
About 5,000 Armenian Warriors were KIA.Thousands more wounded.
Several thousand Armenian civilians killed, wounded, crippled, maimed: I don’t have the exact number at this time.
Avery jan, Thanks for the correction. Nevertheless, just because Armenians in Baku peacefully demonstrated after the fall of communism to have their Artsakh’s free lands back, the Azeri mob went into every Armenian house and mutilated and killed them barbarically. The same happened in Sumgeit and four other regions in Azerbaijan. We cannot trust them with our lives nor our children’s lives, never.
Five important facts
There are five important facts to remember about the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower Organization.
They have accepted the Organization as the prophet of God.
They have accepted the Organization as God’s sole channel for His truth.
They believe that to reject the Organization is to reject God.
They believe that only the Organization can interpret the Bible; as individuals, they are unable to do so.
They believe that the Watchtower magazine contains God’s truth, directed by Him, through the Organization.
Conflict with Christianity
What does the organization and the Watchtower magazine teach that is in conflict with orthodox Christianity?
That Jesus is a created being a creature.
That Jesus is actually Michael theArchangel.
That Jesus was not resurrected bodily, but as a spirit being.
That Jesus returned invisibly in 1914(secretly to the Organization).
That Jesus was only a man when on earth, not “the Word become flesh.”
That the Holy Spirit is only an active force, not the Person of God.
That hell is simply the grave.
That heaven’s doors are open to only 144,000 people.
That majority of Witnesses must remain on earth.
That salvation is found only through the Organization.
That salvation can be maintained only by energetic works for Organization until the end, when one may then merit eternal life on a paradise earth.
That Satan is the author of the doctrine of the trinity.
That Jesus can not be given worship, but only honor as Jehovah’s first creation.
Denial of the essentials
The Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe or teach some of the very basic tenets of Christian doctrine.
They deny;
The trinity.
The deity of Christ.
The bodily resurrection of Christ.
The visible return of Christ.
The Person of God the Holy Spirit.
The promise of heaven to all believers.
The necessity of the new birth for all believers.
The Lord’s Supper for all believers (not only for the 144,000).
The eternal security of the believer.
The conscious eternal punishment of the lost.
From the book Fast Facts on False Teachings by Dr. Ron Carlson and Ed Decker.
We need to remmember that our Jesus did say ( Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves). Matt.7:15
May the Holy Trinity save us from evil people.
‘We cannot trust them with our lives nor our children’s lives, never.’
Agree Seervart. NEVER.
‘Azeri mob went into every Armenian house and mutilated and killed them barbarically’
There is picture of a young Armenian girl, maybe 12, 13,14 – naked from the waste up, in what looks like an Azeri morgue (either Sumgait or Baku), with an Azeri morgue worker standing over her as if she’s some dead animal.
That image is burned in my mind: can’t let go of it.
Armen jan– You hit the bull’s eye… you described who JWs truly are by a simple scripture from the Bible…
“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves). Matt.7:15
May the Holy Trinity save us from evil people. INDEED.. because as we can see, they are EVERYWHERE…
JWs should be ashamed of themselves… Especially the Armenians who turn to JW.. I am embarassed for you.. truly am…mez chi sazum…
Avery, I saw this picture probably taken either in Baku or in Sumgeit that two Azeri/Tatar soldiers overlooking a very young girl like about 16 18 20 year old that the Azeri mob have completely taken out her breasts, there was a huge hollow where her breasts would be, then a few feet away a young man about 18 20 22 years old dead. They were either a newly married husband and wife or siblings, both killed by being mutilated in a beastly manner. At least beasts usually kill for food to survive, these inhuman Azeri mob are much worse than beasts to do that to their own kind.
I couldn’t dismiss the picture out of my mind for a long time.
I’m glad to see many of your Armenians are as passionate as I am about preserving our own religion and exposing the evil and false religion of Jehova’s Witnesses.
The JW “religion” was based entirely on false prophecy which today has turned into a cult following. Basically Charles Russel was an Adventist who started the Watch Tower Society in 1879 and the lunacy began… by 1914 this clown became so full of himself, he actuall claimed Jesus was coming to visit him and his congregation personally. Well it didn’t happen, so next he claimed it would be 1915. Of course neither did that happen, so what is one to do? Well he next came up with a brilliant idea which no one can “refute” – he said Jesus was already here but was invisible. (No more needs to be said of this pathetic fool). From that point on it was the birth of the present day “Jehova’s Witness”.
From the outside these people claim to be “peaceful” however that is because they don’t have an army. If you ever get involved with them then attempt to break free, you will understand that their evil nature is 1,000 times worse than being violent. These Jehova’s Witnesses have broken family after family with their “excommunication” – they actually preach that if any of your family members are against the JW cult, they should be excommunicated, ridiculed, banished, or whatever else term you’d like to use. You be the judge whether they are dangerous or not…
@ Artin – Thank you for such a detailed comment on a subject that is close to your heart. I will try to respond below to what I believe are your main points and hope they will be clear.
“Sean, you perceive the dichotomy in my words because you do not know me yet in person, and also I cannot write all my thoughts into a news forum.
True. That is a challenge for all of us. That is why Jesus and Jehovah’s Witnesses called/call house-to-house.
“I have a brain and a heart, and the words of the Christ speak of itself.
Our alliance is not to human governments as you accuse us, but through connecting with our fellow humans on Earth we shall pave our way to the Heavans.”
I believe this is the source of the dichotomy. You have introduced human philosophy and replaced God’s Word, as stated by Christ Jesus on earth. NOWHERE in God’s Word did he say such a thing.
“True, prayer comes first, but since we live on this Earthly world, we have to engage ourselves in Earthly affairs, we have to promote Truthfulness, kindness, justice….we have to be stewards of this planet, of the animals, of the eco systems, the forests….we have to be steadfast in our struggle against the destructive forces of the world, we have to be vigilant.”
Of course these statements are true. Jehovah’s Witnesses practice this around the world. God gave this assignment to Adam and Eve. But when their son, Cain became a murderer, he was banished.
“When you see such torture, such barbarism in front of your own eyes, answer me in Heaven’s name, what do you do?? Will you not jump for rescue, will you not sacrifice yourself? Will you not defend the defenceless from such horrors?? Maybe you will not.”
That question has already been graphically answered at WW2, as I’ve already stated. Jehovah’s Witnesses did not go to war for Nazis or anyone else. But many soldiers who CLAIMED to be Christians did. If all of them had stayed home there would have been NO war. It is not our CLAIMS that prove we’re Christian, it is our OBEDIENCE.
“Where is the European Court from condemning the genocide of 1915?? ”
This is a question for the ECHR but I understand your frustration. We took our case to the court in a spirit of peace. I don’t know what Armenia has done but I doubt if guns are allowed. Has anyone taken legal action?
This is what we scream day and night “Let your kingdom come. Let your will be done, AS IN heaven, ALSO UPON EARTH”.
Actually this is taken from the Lord’s Payer (or “OUR FATHER” prayer) so I don’t recommend screaming. Nevertheless, I understand from these comments and the balance of the paragraph that serious injustice has taken place. There is no question about that. I have Armenian friends and Turkish friends. No one justifies it. But then again, NONE OF THEM were alive then and they can do nothing about the past. WE can only be responsible for OUR conduct. Perpetual hatred only serves the interests of Satan, not God. Likewise, Jesus is able to resurrect all those who have died as a result of injustice. So Jehovah’s Witnesses, as Christians, are obedient to HIM.
“Here is some statistics for you as to the number of JW activists in the 3 countries………….As you see, your churh is VERY active in Armenia with a much larger percentage of attendance in comparison to Turkey and Azerbaijan. ”
Perhaps the Armenians are a reasonable and spiritually minded people. I don’t know. All cultures are different and some nations offer more freedoms. And we are thankful for that. That doesn’t mean we hate others. We TRY to preach to everyone.
“And then, if Jehovah’s witnesses are such a succesful model of promoting peace and love, then how come that the country with your strongest presence in (2.5 million attendees), I mean the US, is the most agressive nation in the world with war fronts spread throughout the four globes??”
That is a good question. But I can tell you for a fact that most non-Witnesses don’t listen to God either. Jehovah’s Witnesses have been preaching there longer (and were at one time persecuted as well) but it is actually more of an atheist nation than Christian, judging by their CONDUCT. They trust in arms more than God. But there is not a single one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in their army, navy or air force.
“And then I do not understand why should somebody become a Jehovah witness, considering there are 7.5 million active publishers through the world and 18 million attendees, but of which only 144 thousand shall be saved and resurrected into the eternal presence of God?? That means you already are in competition among yourselves and there is no room left for new recruits!!
“Our doctrine promises salvation for all mankind with equal potential regardless of race, religion, creed. What matters is a pure heart, selflessness, goodness, love for mankind, nature and life. ….Knowing about death, dying for a cause…we shall achieve immortality”.
You speak of doctrine and then include and national saying. Which carries more weight, in your mind? Perhaps the reason that you don’t understand the question of 144,000 anointed individuals is that your church is not teaching you. They appear to influence you more politically than scripturally. I can only say that your conclusion is wrong and that the next time Jehovah’s Witnesses call on you, ask them. But if you are “screaming” the words of the Lord’s Prayer with understanding, you would realize that not all obedient Christians will go to heaven. Those that do have an assignment, “to be kings and priests’ in his Kingdom OVER the earth. The rest of faithful Christians will live on the earth forever, as its SUBJECTS. As I quoted already, “Let your kingdom come. Let your WILL be done , as it (ALREADY) is in the heavens, ALSO upon the EARTH”. (I have have capitalized for emphasis). Obviously, a kingdom government does not only have kings, without subjects. The kings are specifically numbered in Revelation 14:3 and their responsibility is clear from Revelation 5:9,10. If you don’t believe me, ask your priest to explain these scriptures. If he still represents the “Holy Church”, he should be happy you asked. Remember that these are the words of Jesus, as he revealed them to the apostle John.
Sean, I am willing to grab your hand escort you to the contact line where mercenaries are offered financial trophies for shooting Armenians and wait for the slightest opportunity to invade us and finish what the turks did not finish. If you can convert those snipers to peace loving Christians, I will be the first to convert to a Jehovah witness, otherwise, you better stay away from our land and stop brainwashing our youth to run away from dfefending their homeland.
May the Spirit of God be with you and your family, may the reign of the supreme judge come nearer.
The spirit of God does not allow any Christians ANYWHERE in the army. If it is not clear yet, let me quote for you the words Paul, repeated in Romans 12: 17-21, “If possible, as far as it depends upon YOU, be peaceable with ALL men. Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.” But, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink……” Do not let YOURSELF be conquered by the evil, but keep conquering the evil with the good”.
I hope this clarifies our position, as Christians. I have ONLY spoken with the authority of GOD’s WORD, not my own opinion or with human philosophy. I hope you accept my comments in the spirit of respect. I have no malice towards anyone or any government. I do feel however, that all churches (in general) have done a poor job of representing Christ and his teachings and example. Christ NEVER got involved in politics. He loves ALL men and died for ALL men. He died for his beliefs but was resurrected. This is what I taught my my grandchildren and grandchildren. We will never kill anyone for any reason because we have faith in Jesus.
These comments reflect a spirit of pure prejudice. Someone who can’t even spell their name can hardly be taken as an authority. It just sounds like someone with a grudge. At least many here who disagree with/misunderstand Jehovah’s Witnesses took the time to make an intelligent and thoughtful comments. This is just pointless ridicule that deserves no response.
@ Harry – Good for you Harry! Even though you acknowledge you don’t know many scriptures, at least you are APPLYING THEM. That is the most important thing. The Jewish scribes knew many scriptures but failed to apply them and so, never recognized the Messiah when he came, even though the general population expected him to come, based on prophecy. Keep studying and adding to your knowledge and most important, keep applying what you learn. May God bless the spirit you show. (2 Timothy 4:22)
So I got those facts from spiritwatch, and here is an excerpt…
*
How did the Jehovah’s Witness sect’s current teaching about the 1914 “gospel” evolve from Russell’s original teaching? It came about as the need for the Society to respond to the unexpected events ocurring all around it in the real world which challenged its’ original conclusions. 1914 came and went, and Armageddon failed to come as predicted. So new copies of Russell’s Studies in the Scriptures were printed up by the Watchtower Society with the key date 1914 changed to read “1915” in key places in the text (compare, for example, page 81 of the 1908 edition and page 81of the 1915 edition of volume 2 in Studies in the Scriptures). But in 1916 Charles T. Russell died suddenly, and Joseph F. Rutherford became the new president of the Watchtower Society and the new leader of the Jehovah’s Witness sect. In an attempt to keep the small band of “Bible students” within the fold, in 1917 Rutherford published volume 7 in Studies in the Scriptures, “The Finished Mystery”. The book was an effort to reconcile Russell’s prophetic emphasis, and the “Bible students” attention to it, to a new chronology that would really show when Armageddon would occur: on page 485 the date for Armageddon is moved from 1915 to 1918.
However, Rutherford and those “Bible Students” who remained faithful to his leadership (many left after Rutherford’s assumption of power) got another rude shock. 1918 came and Armageddon again failed to materialize as predicted. Instead, World War I – seen as the pivotal conflict that would precipitate Armageddon – ended with the Treaty of Versailles. Rutherford was now faced with another prophetic snafu, and in 1920 a massive new door-to-door preaching campaign was launched by the Watchtower leadership centering around their new book Millions Now Living Will Never Die. Ever willing to base their lives upon their group’s changing prophetic views, hundreds of the “Bible students” became itinerant heralds of the book. It taught that 1925 would witness the full establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth and the resurrection of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to the “condition of human perfection.” (5)
Yet 1925 came and went without incident. Still more disillusioned followers of the Watchtower finally left the group. Watchtower president Joseph Rutherford privately admitted “I made an ass of myself.” (6) Realizing the dire need to stem the exodus of members from the Society, Rutherford’s teachings through Society publications began to emphasize early in the year a “flash” of “enlightened understanding” that was to have long reaching consequences for its future teachings on the Gospel. In the March 1 issue of The Watchtower, his exposition of Revelation 12 “clearly explained for the first time” the now central position of the Society: “There are two distinct organizations – Jehovah’s and Satan’s .. Everyone belongs to either Jehovah’s organization or to Satan’s.” (7) This was a bold maneuver to consolidate the claims of the Society by taking a much more rigid stand on who was saved, and who wasn’t…
In 1930, the Watchtower, still under Rutherford’s authoritarian direction, continued to harden its position and attempt to rewrite its history. It switched the date for Christ’s “invisible presence” from 1874 to 1914. The date 1874, long touted as “correct beyond the possibility of a doubt” and “based squarely on inspired prophecy” (10) was quietly dropped. And in 1935, the Society presented even more “new light” and taught that 1935 (not 1881, as Russell had taught) marked the final year one could become part of the elect class of “anointed” Christians (who had a heavenly hope). From that point on, all who became Christians – that is, of course, a baptized member of the Witnesses – after 1935 automatically become part of the “Great Crowd,” (an inferior class of believers subordinate to the “anointed” or “elect class”). After that date these “Jonadabs” who “realized that the spirit of God had not engendered in them the hope of heavenly life” (11) could only now hope only for preservation through Armageddon and the prospect of eternal life on the earth itself. This establishment of two classes of the righteous, one with assurance and the other with conditional salvation based upon their loyalty to the Society, placed an even greater demand upon Witnesses to conform to the dictates of their leaders, thus further strenthening the autocratic control they would come to exert over them in the decades to come.
**
Really pathetic, poor souls.
@ Halo – Paul, Please help. You won’t allow me to use God Word as an authority and you don’t like quotations. But Halo is here quoting biased opinions from a third party in Cleveland, Ohio (even worse) AND quotations marks! Please chastise him!
@ Gayane –
“Dear Sean and Paul..
Few questions…
“1. If you consider yourselves as Christ’s children… why not call yourself Christians? Why do you call yourselves JW???”
I will speak for Jehovah’s Witnesses on this question. We ARE Christians. But as Jesus predicted, MANY will CALL themselves Christians (Matthew 7:22,23) but will be unfaithful to his teachings. There are literally 100’s of “Christian” denominations. Jesus shows that he would reject them as fakes. So how can you differentiate yourselves from those CLAIMING to be Christian. You have to have a legal name. Jehovah’s Witnesses chose the name”Jehovah’s Witnesses” to make them distinct from others. It honours Christ’s Father, Jehovah. We bear witness that he created the earth with his Son and sent him to earth to redeem mankind (John 3:17). Everywhere on earth, we are recognized as Christian and use God’s Word as our authority.
“2. Is it because you believe JWs are higher and mightier than Christians and you felt you had to separate yourselves from us??”
No.
“3. How do you explain a set number of seats in the JW’s doctrine??? Who came up with that number? Did God decide how many seats He is going to make available for JWs? Did God decide which JW belongs and will claim a seat in his throne?? Our God, our Jesus Christ does not put limits as to who can win a seat in his kingdom.”
By seats, are you referring to Revelation:14:1-3? If so, God came up with that number. Jesus revealed it to the apostle John as recorded there. The rest of your statement/question is conjecture on your part and contradicts Jesus statement. I would only ask why your church hasn’t taught you such an important element of God’s kingdom.
“But why a certain number of seats? I was under the impression when one becomes JW, you automatically get a seat.. If not, then that tells me not ALL JWs who join this cult are true followers of Christ/God… If not, then what is the point of preaching purity, peace, love and harmony???”
You are misinformed. No one gets an automatic seat. My 11 year old grand-daughter was asked this sme question last weekend, as we were speaking to a university student. Her answer was that we have to prove ourselves faithfully,”to the end” (Matthew 24:13). That was Jesus answer too. You seem to be under the impression that our preaching is motivated by a desire to go to heaven and otherwise their is no point. Is that not a selfish motive? Was that Jesus motive? And to your last of multi-part #3 question, (not the insulting-cult inference), I again have to wonder why your church has not taught you such basic Christian concepts. The point of our preaching is motivated by love of God and love of neighbour, the two greatest commands according to Jesus (Matthew 22:37-39). It is a final warning to the people of all nations that Jesus is about to rule the earth by his kingdom and to forcefully remove all in opposition to his rulership. When his apostles asked him when this would happened, he described “signs” of the last days” (of human rulership) he told them there would be a worldwide preaching campign. The theme would be “the good news of the kingdom (Matthew 24:14) “AND THEN the end will come”. Our literature has proclaimed this for a century now and has always been the message we teach. It will bring peace and an end to all human conflict. Those opposed to his kingdom preach war and violence and will be eliminated by him. Only those who cooperate with his kingdom willingly will benefit from it.
“4. Be honest.. What do you offer those who decide to convert into JW? What are the benefits? I know they are some that exist otherwise why would anyone, especially the Armenians, want to convert .. to separate themselves from their true religion, Christianity….. I just want to hear directly from the horse’s mouth…
Just curious…”
I’m always honest. Jehovah’s Witnesses offer the TRUTH about God’s purpose, based on his Word. God is looking for suchlike ones to worship him (John 4:23) Anyone who does not have truth is alienated from God. The benefits of his kingdom are MANY but some are found in Revelation 21:3,4 (an end to ALL suffering) resurrection of the dead (Acts 24:15) and end of ALL wickedness (2 Peter 3:13) food, meaningful employment and good health for all (Isaiah 65:21-25). Human government can NEVER do these things and is a dramatic failure. There is no other alternative to God’s kingdom. The miracles Jesus performed on earth prove that he can is is willing to do them all and he has promised to do so. He died to make it a reality.
And to address you final point, if you already had “true Christianity” you would already know all of these answers, just as my 11 year grand-daughter does. Is it possible that Jesus teachings have been left behind, in favour of tradition, as was true of the religious leaders in Jesus day? (Mark 7:1-8) Jesus did not blame the sheep of his days but spoke harshly of those who had made God’s Word invalid by the traditions of men. Since I don’t attend your church, you will have to answer a rhetorical question; how much actual Bible instruction do you receive at church and how much is simply tradition? The priests I have spoken to tell me that there is virtually NO actual instruction from the Bible.
I hope I have done justice to your questions and clarified some misunderstandings in the process. I hope they also give you hope of much better conditions to exist on the earth under Christ’s kingdom, including the resurrection of your dead loved one.
To the JW by the name ‘Sean’: I think Artin, Armen, and Halo did a wonderful job depicting the antichrist essence of your sect and the true picture of your penetration into Armenia as compared to Turkey and Azerbaijan. I’ve got nothing else to add except for Jesus’ instruction to all the mankind: No Man Cometh unto the Father, but by Me” John 14:6 (King James Bible Translation).
Paul, Thank you for your justified answer to Sean. Indeed we are the first Christian nation on earth, we are Armenian Apostolics and we do not need Jehova Witnesses coming to our tiny and newly liberated country to disberse us. 90% of Armenians are Apostolic for a good reason as we believe in God, God the Son Christ and the Holy Spirit. Our scriptures are the authentic one and we also believe that NO HUMAN FLESH CAN DETERMINE WHO GOES OR WHO DOESN’T GO TO HEAVEN. ONLY GOD DETERMINES AFTER ONE PASSES AWAY!!!
Sean- your answers to my questions are UNSATISFACTORY and very much so twisted.. You truly believe we believe your BS? Using Bible and God to cover up your insignficant presence…
Armenia should BLOCK AND THROW ANYONE who attempts to disburse our community and JW has been doing that.. You should THANK them for allowing you and not putting you to instant death like the two unknown countries you mentioned in your previous posts..
Therefore, instead of telling me why our church did not teach me this or that.. you should ask WHY you use Christ in vein… Why you call yourselves Christians and HAVE TO separate yourselves… ONLY ONE REASON… JW is not a religion.. it is a cult.. I am sorry to be blunt about this but no matter how much you throw me sugar coated BS, I ain’t buying…
Guess what Sean? I may not be as experienced in life as you .. mind you, you have a grand daughter aleady and I yet to be wed… I know one thing.. NO ONE can pull a wool over my eyes with their fake preachings and sugar coated words.. and that is exactly what JW is doing to people who are desparate, you are seeking refuge, who needs to feel secure and the only way they can get that, is by joining JW…
My church and my religion is Christian and Christianity.. My church taught me to be aware of fake religions… and my church does not dictate that only 144,000 seats are available in Heaven and you better hassle to do what you need to do because if yo don’t, you won’t get a seat…i just can’t get over this set number of seats thing… just blows me away on how people get soooo fooled with this stuff… it simply amazes me…
Like I said.. this is simply embarassing… I know Jesus Christ is looking upon us and He is probably fuming at such cults that use His Father’s name for FAKE religious matters…simply appauling..
But thank you for taking your time to respond to some questions… even though I knew you would… because persistance is your #1 characteristic..otherwise who would join if one does not persist…
Gayane
Halo jan— thank you for your posts… hopefully it will enlighten our JWs on some matters that they are soooo blinded and sidetracked…
Bravo…
3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”
Acts 5:2-4 (NKJV)
2 As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. 4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down toSeleucia, and from there they sailed toCyprus.
Acts 13:2-4 (NKJV)
It always amazes me how some sectants claim the highest knowledge from reading the Bible and interpreting it to fit their crazy ideas. Fortunately, most Armenians are immune to this heresy because our forefathers were already Christians when the Bible was being written.
@ Sean, everytime we opened our doors to Jehovah witnesses, we end up being harassed with desparate attempts to convert us! That’s why I do not want any face to face anymore. Discussions are welcomed, but please no conversion attempts, mind you I have been subjected to conversions even by muslims, somehow I always feel embarassed to say No thank you.
To connect human philoshphy with relgious scripture is normal my friend, not doing so is a verry narrowed approach, we are not brainwashed with dogma, actually, in Armenian, although we use the term Surp Kirk (Holy Bible), but the true naming of the bible is AsdvadzaShunch (Breath of GOD). To narrow the Word of GOD to literal interpretation is like limiting GOD’s teaching to mortal perceptions. In Armenian Church we are encouraged to expand our views, learn other traditions, study philosophy, science, arts and literature, otherwise we fall into limited world views which sometimes can be embarassing when discussing with enlightened people. To show how out of touch with reality Jehovah Witnesses were previously, check the unfulfilled predictions
1877: Christ’s kingdom would hold full sway over the earth in 1914; the Jews, as a people, would be restored to God’s favour; the “saints” would be carried to heaven.
1891: 1914 would be “the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men.”
1904: “World-wide anarchy” would follow the end of the Gentile Times in 1914.
1916: World War I would terminate in Armageddon and the rapture of the “saints”.
1917: In 1918, Christendom would go down as a system to oblivion and be succeeded by revolutionary governments. God would “destroy the churches wholesale and the church members by the millions.” Church members would “perish by the sword of war, revolution and anarchy.” The dead would lie unburied. In 1920 all earthly governments would disappear, with worldwide anarchy prevailing.
1920: Messiah’s kingdom would be established in 1925 and bring worldwide peace. God would begin restoring the earth. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and other faithful patriarchs would be resurrected to perfect human life and be made princes and rulers, the visible representatives of the New Order on earth. Those who showed themselves obedient to God would never die.
1922: The anti-typical “jubilee” that would mark God’s intervention in earthly affairs would take place “probably the fall” of 1925.
1924: God’s restoration of Earth would begin “shortly after” October 1, 1925. Jerusalem would be made the world’s capital. Resurrected “princes” such as Abel, Noah, Moses and John the Baptist would give instructions to their subjects around the world by radio, and airplanes would transport people to and from Jerusalem from all parts of the globe in just “a few hours”.
1938: In 1938, Armaggedon was too close for marriage or child bearing.
1941: There were only “months” remaining until Armageddon.
1942: Armageddon was “immediately before us.”
1966: It would be 6000 years since man’s creation in the fall of 1975 and it would be “appropriate” for Christ’s thousand-year reign to begin at that time.Time was “running out, no question about that.”The “immediate future” was “certain to be filled with climactic events … within a few years at most”, the final parts of Bible prophecy relating to the “last days” would undergo fulfillment as Christ’s reign began.
1968: No one could say “with certainty” that the battle of Armageddon would begin in 1975, but time was “running out rapidly” with “earthshaking events” soon to take place.In March 1968 there was a “short period of time left”, with “only about ninety months left before 6000 years of man’s existence on earth is completed”.
1969: Human existence would not last long enough for young people to grow old; the world system would end “in a few years.” Young Witnesses were told not to bother pursuing tertiary education for this reason.
1974: There was just a “short time remaining before the wicked world’s end” and Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to “finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service.”
1984: There were “many indications” that “the end” was closer than the end of the 20th century.
We as members of Armenian Apostolic Church (the oldest in the world, apostolic, meaning that we hold direct lineage from 2 of the 12 apostles of Christ, Bartholomew and Thadeus), equipped with an open mind, scientific, philosphic, religious, nation loving people have not one such false prediction, not because we do not know about such prophecies, but because we are Truthful, we do not speak something out unless if it was absolutely true.
You keep repeating that in WW2 JW’s did not carry arms. I find that very cowardly. Mind you the war did not end because JW did not carry arms, but rather, the war ended and the holocaust as well, because of the involvement of the Alliances and the russians who have stopped the insanity. If you found the Nazi behavior wrong and criminal, then you should have carried arms and srtarted up a resistance, this lack of action encourages supressive regimes to go on with their crimes. Imagine, without the allies involvement, all Jews would have been wiped out from Europe! I asked wether you will defend the defencelss, your answer, is just to stay passive. This is the one big difference between Mosaic and Christian doctrine, Mosaic teachings emphasize on “Thou Shall Not”. Christian teachings is about making effort, to fight injustice, to stand upright and draw power from Christ’s Spirit for virtuous living, and not hiding like mickey mouse and calling for pluto. “I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” (Matthew 10:34)
The reason that you are able to preach in Armenia so freely and not in Turkey or Azerbaijan, is not because as you say “Armenians are a reasonable and spiritually minded people”….NOOO my friend, that is a grave misunderstanding of Armenia people, though reasonable we are….You are able to do in our Land because there was one man called Saint Vardan Mamigonian who laid down his life whilst he fought for Christendom! It was in the Battle of Avarayr that the Armenian Heroes fought against the Sassainid Persians opression and their attempts to convert us to Zoroastrianism, although we lost the battle and many martyrs, but nevertheless we eventually preserved our religious freedom. Sean my brother in Christ, let me take you further back in through the annals of our national history, it was in he year August 11 2492 BC, when our Patriarch refused to submit to the evil supressive ruler Baal (Bel – Nimrod) of Babylon and guided his people out of Sumer to the plains of Ararat to live in freedom, but Bel having refused to grant such fredom to the Armenians gathered his army to conquer us, and on that ospicious battle patriarch Hayk killed Baal in the Battle of Giants with a nearly impossible shot using a long bow, and he sent Baals forces into disarray, thereby, preserving our National Freedom!
Wether one screams or murmurs in prayer “Let Thy Kingdom come, Let Thy Will be done” is a circumstantial matter. The message behind is the surrender of human will to Divine Will. Thank you for your recommendation to only use it in prayer mode. But, “Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” Luke 23:46 This is an actual surrender of Christ Man to Christ Divine.
I won’t comment on your “perpetual hateness” accusations, because you are not getting that there is no hate between us and turks, but “perpetual GENOCIDAL intentions”. The turkish government is a DIRECT SUCCESOR of the OTTOMAN regime, they have blood on their hands, judgement and punishment did not take place. Imagine a German goverment today which was a continuation of the Nazi regime, and the holocaust was never recognized and actually the WW2 events narrated in another way, such as Jews died because they were uprising against the nazi governemnet, how would that sound??
I did not ask you to go to the contact line with Azerbaijan for fighting, but for preaching, If you are willing to go to the contact line and preach the word of Christ to those snipers, and hopefully I pray that you can neutralize them with your peacful messages, then I am your first convert.
Now to come back to the main topic of the article.
Armenia is a nation surrounded by enemies who want to exterminate it. Clear? ok..
We need an army to defend our borders from instantaneous barbaric invasions (do you know that the military budget of Azerbaijan 3.5 billion dollars exceeds the entire national budget of Armenia??) oh, by the way guess who sells weapons to them?? so we have to remain vigilant. U verj!
You are preaching our people to give up arms, but what are you doing to help our people to defend itself?? Since by far, it is our army defending YOU and your freedom to preach.
You have to options here, either you reduce your preaching activities in Armenia and increase it in Turkey, somehow it needs to be balanced your activism, otheriwse we have a defenseless nation facing an agressive nation armed to the teeth.
In case an Armenian JW does not want to carry arms, they will have to at least cook for the soldiers and do some cleaning etc.. OR, better send these noble ones to the border contact line with enough biblees at hand so that they can preach the gospel to the enemies. Agreed?
Chickening out and runnig from duty is unacceptable, for such people only one place awaits them, jail.
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Matthew(7:21)
You are welcome to take part of the Divine liturgy of the One Holy Armenian Apostolic Church.
You are invited to convert to the Armenian way, will do you only good and you will feel the power of Christ, not to mention, all contradictions between mainstream history, theology, bible, science and religion will fade away and you will find your inner peace once and for all.
Finally you are saying “True Christ loved all men”….REALLY?? What about this? Doesnt sound so loving does it?
“Woe to YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! ……….
“SERPENTS, OFFSPRING OF VIPERS” Matthew (23:29-33)
What about casting pearls before swine and dogs?? Also not so loving!!
What I know, is that Jesus Christ loved Armenia and Armenians, thus he descended to our land and annointed us as his people and the first Christian Nation, others are not of my business, but if some deceide to pay us a visit and lear the ways of Christ, our arms are wide open.
PS: To Armenians who are worried about JW spread in Armenia. We all know how Hayastancis are, specially in todays’ difficult socio economic conditions, tsavet danem, gaynkes kezi, mernim kezi attitude, for now they will take the benefits that JW offers, hich is good, they need it, but knowing what an Armenian is, we all know deep inside we are unchangeable, the moment the benefits are gone, they will all leave the sect and come back to their senses.
Thanks for the many kind words I read, Gayane, Avery, Paul etc..I read all your comments, but couldnt reply, I am not on a payroll for doing this :-) and it takes at least 2 hours of my normal working time to reply to Sean hehe…
best
Artin
Thank you Artin for your enlightening words and your examples above.
Seervart
@ Artin, Paul & Gayane – I’m afraid that, although I have received some education and appreciate you participation and comments, I do not see a solution to your concerns in your comments. In fact many comments are simply insults at this point. I do not use bad language or respond to those who do. You are satisfied to collect and believe propaganda from non-Jehovah’s Witnesses websites while you rarely respond to any authoritative scriptures that I post from Gods Word, the Bible. In fact, even your comments show a distain for God’s Word. As Artin has said, your church has mixed trdition, philosophy, arts, science and literature. By doing this you can not see the clarity of Jesus teaching itself. It is clear that you are happy to live in the past and will probably repeat it, with the same outcome. I am afraid that what I have shared with you from the HOLY BIBLE and have referred to many times does not hold much value to you.
I truly sympathize with your concerns but the reason nations are in such difficulties is that they DON”T LISTEN TO CHRIST, only the church, which also has a sad non-Christian history of corruption, war, torture (inquisitions) and political involvement. Since you have made a choice to follow the traditions of men and not Jesus, I will watch world news to see how that works out for you. Meanwhile I will courageously continue to preach about how God’s kingdom will benefit the earth in many ways. That might seem like “chicken” to you but I can tell you that it is always easier to go along with the crowd than to stand up for yourself and your beliefs, which is what Jehovah’s Witnesses do and have done. The ECHR agrees. My German brothers who went to concentration camps in Germany and were shot or decapitated were no “chickens”. They would die rather than kill someone else because they have confidence in Christ’s ransom sacrifice and in all of his promises. Christ was no “chicken” either. Your comments reflect that you haven’t even read much of what I wrote, other than look for a few things to ridicule. That being said, I will move on to other things that I have neglected, as I spent time here. I wish you peace and thank you for your time. Perhaps, if you are not so defensive in my absence, you’ll have time to consider the words of Jesus to Peter and how you are applying them.
Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take
the sword will perish by the sword.” (Matthew 26:52)
You think that you are getting ‘the truth’ from one singular source? You don’t think that by only getting your information from one bias source with an agenda is more accurate than that from many other sources including you own old JW literature? Why do you think that they tell you not to read old watchtowers and awakes and basically to shut your eyes and ears to everything but whatever current doctrine they are preaching in the present time? The reason for this is that if JW’s investigated the watchtowers and awakes, they would see all of the failed and false doctrines that there were not so long ago. Why do you not no anything about about the governing body? Why do you know so little about Charles Taze Russel? I took the time to read his writings and the are pure nonsense and outright absurdity. You are satisfied by being told nothining about anything. You criticize others for presenting accurate infomation you were forbidden to study. The truth will rise from lies and deception, the JW organization fails to rise miserably on all levels. It only takes a bit of research and critical thinking to learn that it is false.
Sean– we DID read what you said.. but like I said.. i don’t follow fake preachings..and JW represents fake preaching…. Artin gave you plenty of examples and great information, it seems like you people are overlooking what is truly important and beneficial for you to learn but obviously it did not work..
Insults or not (that is one’s interpretation) I don’t think anyone insulted YOU personally.. Did they? No what we pointed out and exposed is what JW PREACH and FOLLOW.. now that is another question.. All we want is YOUR SO CALLED RELIGION TO STAY AWAY FROM ARMENIA AND ARMENIANS.. period.. i don’t care what you do.. but DON”T GO CLOSER TO MY PEOPLE… STAY AWAYY…
Even statistics did not work for you.. I assume you are not even ARmenian and you don’t know much about our history ……am I correct????
Artin jan— Yes qo sirtin mernem… thank you…thank you.. thank you…. that is my hayastantsi way of saying… you are someone I appreciate ..:)
Gayane
Thanks to you all for defending our believes and faith in Orthodox way of understanding Christianity, it seems to me, JW representatives want us to surrender ourselves without defending what we believe in. Looking at the history of the Armenian people, there is no way the Armenian society can survive without defending it’s borders and citizens. The same apply to other countries of the world. The holy Bible gives an account of several wars that were fought in the days – what was use in fighting these wars that the bible talks about? so where is the argumenent that J.W is putting across(not bearing arms). Which bible is the JW referring to? I guess the JW bible need to be re-translated. It is now clear the JW bible has some errors that need to be corrected.
Armen jan… their Bible is in their own written doctrine.. they do not follow the true Bible.. the Bible we follow… it is unfortunate that they were able to get so many of our brethren in Armenia.. that breaks my heart.. knowing that my sisters and brothers are following such fake religion… it just breaks my heart..
JWs are taking advantage of the freedom they havein Armenia.. we have the stats on this page and I am afraid our govt has been too linient toward them.. our govt should put stricter rules when it comes to practicing such cult like organization…. hence why i agree with the govt’s action of imprisoning the guy who refused to serve in the army… mind you i don’t agree with many things our govt does currently but protecting our country IS absolutely valuable and needs to be taken seriously… and it seems the govt does… however, if they got sued by one JW, guess what? everyone will start suing… th solution? STOP them from entering and preaching n the country.. and if they do.. and decide to remain inArmenia, they NEED AND REQUIRED TO FOLLOW the govt protocols when it comes to serving in the Army…
Sean is not Armenian.. Paul may not be Armenian.. but i am just guessing..
Gayane
@Gayane
You make me laugh.. laugh out loud. Cause they wont stay out of Armenia,.. they wont stop preaching and making more brothers and sisters among the armenian people.
You can use Capital Letters and scream all you want but it wont help. Jehovah’s Witnesses were never ever stopped before.
Gods laws are above that of any human. So as long as God is not commanding his people to fight,.. Jehovah’s Witnesses wont.
In his Aug 10, 2011 post, Sean wrote ‘…in virtually every country of the world except two Muslim countries where it would be instant death.’
emeth writes ‘…Jehovah’s Witnesses were never ever stopped before.’ Well, emeth, it appears that JWs have been stopped in at least two Muslim countries.
That also tells me that you are taking unfair advantage of the civility and peace loving nature of Christian Armenians to sow your seeds of destruction in a safe environment, where you know you face absolutely no danger because of your beliefs: we are proud of our Christian brethren in RoA. However, we Armenians might give you a more sympathetic ear, if you (not personally, but JWs) showed the same depth of belief as Paul the Apostle.
Paul the Apostle went to his beheading without fear, some say with a peaceful smile on his face, because he really believed.
One reason ours is called Armenian Apostolic Church (named after Apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus).
Avery jan.. You took the words right out of my mouth my friend.. you caught them lying…that tells us everything…
Emeth– you lost child, the only reason you won’t stop in ARmenia is because you are too weak to start and finish anything in any other countries ESPECIALLY in Muslim countries… you are strong and powerful because you deal with compassionate people who listen to you…. you deal within the countries who will not throw your your know what out… Hence, that is the only reason I believe your religion is strong…but it is based on nothing that Christianity stands for……JWs simply represent cowardness and weakness in the eyes of those who see JW as such… otherwise you would have had GREAT # in all Muslim countries and not in countries that you face NO death or prosecution… Sorry but this does not scream love of God’s words for EVERYONE, this screams “i will only go where I am welcomed and don’t have to work too hard to convince”… is this what you call never ever stopped before?????…… the joke is on your sir.. who is laughing now??? anyone who lies will have face the judgement day.. and you sir just lied… hmmmm…
Gayane
I clearly see, yhere are not many JW responding to this site. I wonder if you are blocking their words or they just don’t have the time to look at this site? I just wanted to say that I do hear many verbal attacks on Jehovah’s Witnesses and I respect them for their humanitarian efforts in all countries. I know that they are trying their utmost to continue the preaching activity that Jesus mentioned in the book of Matthew. I also know that they do follow laws unless it does conflict with God’s Law…including one of the commandments , “Thou shalt not kill” but,” to love your enemies”…..”If you do not have love, you do not know God”. I am not Armenian. I am from the US. I am a Native American and agree with the teachings of Christ. The LAW was nailed to the torture stake and Jesus gave us HIS teachings to love one another as he has loved us…what greater love is there then to give up your life for someone else? We all live in the same home-earth. And we all should love one another no matter what country, island or land. We have enough to deal with in days of the end. There are natural disasters, famine, pestilences, and war we all contend with. I just think we should be getting along better and learning to love our fellow beings then trying to make life worst then it already is. I come from a Native group that has many gods! I am happy to have the privilege of coming to know who Jesus is and that he is King of the Heavens and soon to destroy the wicked…ending all hate and anyone in opposition to him and his teachings. We all have this oppurtunity to know him too. There are Bibles in every language for ones to learn. There is no excuse for anyone to be ignorant to what the Bible has to say. I hope and pray for everyone to do this, for what other “way” is there? Thank-you for your time. I do not expect any comments. I am just giving a personal statement. Have a good day!
Gloria – thank you for your comment.. everyone is welcome to post their opinion.. Armenians dont’ prosecute, murder or put in jail those who speak up like Turks do in Turkey.. and Armenians are the first nation to adapt Christianity as our national religion in 301AD… I personally do not agree with JW and will never be ok with this so called religion.. it is not a religion to me.. it is a made up organization to the extent that it can be called a cult like Mormons… again everyone has the right to what they want to do but DO NOT EVER impose yourself on others.. which JW tries very very hard to do and we have seen their behaviour unacceptable… no one should be tricked or pushed to join a cult if they don’t want to or don’t understand.. taking advantage of those who are looking a way to get out of bad situation is wrong.. again this is my opinion and i am entitled to voice it…
However, just because we voice our opinion and our distrust and disrespect toward JW it does not mean we are out to get them or hate them.. we just don’t want them in our country period.. nor in our households…
Have a nice day
Gayane
May our God Jehovah have mercy on all who hate his witrnesses
“No Man Cometh unto the Father, but by Me” –Jesus Christ. (John 14:6)