ISTANBUL—The newly elected Armenian member of Turkey’s Parliament, Garo Paylan of the pro-Kurdish People’s Democratic Party (HDP), said he will file a complaint against Tolga Adıgüzel, the chair of the Kars chapter of the ultranationalist Ülkü Ocakları (commonly referred to as the Grey Wolves) organization, reported CNN Turk. Adıgüzel had asked, “What should we do now? Should we start a hunt for Armenians in the streets of Kars?” after world-renowned Armenian pianist Tigran Hamasyan performed a concert at the ruins of Ani on June 21.
At a parliamentary press conference, Paylan said that several examples of hate speech have turned into hate crimes throughout Turkey in recent weeks. “Each hate speech crime that goes unpunished pushes people to ‘dove’s skittishness’ and lays the ground for hate crimes,” he was quoted as saying.
Hrant Dink used the phrase “dove’s skittishness” in his final article in the Agos weekly newspaper, describing his feelings over threats made just days before he was gunned down in the street in 2007.
Paylan said that no prosecutor in Turkey has yet taken a real initiative regarding hate speech and hate crimes, and that as a result these crimes have largely remained unpunished. “The recent discourses aiming to create hatred and enmity against the Armenian community in Kars and the LGBT community in Ankara constitute a clear and imminent threat against the right to life,” said Paylan, who also referred to recent attacks against Korean tourists in Istanbul.
On July 5, participants of a march protesting China’s treatment of Turkic Uighurs—organized by the Istanbul chapter of the Grey Wolves—attacked a group of Korean tourists in central Istanbul, mistaking them for Chinese nationals.
Bravo! Exactly what to do …… Be careful so !
Yeah. It’s the brave and right thing to do. But it will get him even more dangerous attention. It’s not easy being Armenian in Turkey, specially under the public eye.
No, it is not exactly what to do!!! Those guys are ignorant and have guns. A dangerous combination indeed. I worry so much about Garo and the other two parliamentarians. I wish they were a bit more cautious and less visible.
Right Ani:
easy for people posting from the safety of their office in the West showering “Bravo!” on Armenians living in Turkey who can get killed any time by psychopath Neo-Nazi Turks.
Anyone shouting “Bravo!” needs to sit down and have a talk with the family of late Hrant Dink.
Anyone shouting “Bravo!” needs to sit down and have a talk with the family of Sevag Balıkçı.
Anyone shouting “Bravo!” from the safety of their office needs to put their guts where their keyboard is, travel to Turkey, and hold up a sign telling Turks they are genocidal murderers.
{““What should we do now? Should we start a hunt for Armenians in the streets of Kars?”}
The fact that these Neo-Nazi Uyguroğlar are allowed to freely express these murderous threats out in the open should disabuse any Armenian of the fantasy that Armenians can let their guard down while these invadonomad savages are next door to our homeland.
Neo-Ottoman Sultan Erdogan sues or jails anyone and everyone who “insults” him.
But this psychopath is allowed to freely threaten to murder Armenians, and the filth in Ankara have suddenly become deaf and blind.
Why ? Because they agree with the biped Canis Lupus.
{“Newly elected Armenian member of Turkey’s Parliament Garo Paylan of the pro-Kurdish People’s Democratic Party (HDP) said he will file a complaint against Tolga Adıgüzel,..”}
Nice sentiment, but all for naught: paper ladle.
Khrimian Hayrig also tried to get a bit of the soup with his paper ladle: it was no contest between a paper ladle and everybody else’s steel ladles.
It is the responsibility of _everyone_ who considers himself/herself Armenian to do his/her utmost to make sure RoA and NKR grow populous, economically more powerful, and most importantly militarily second to none in the region.
In one of the few instances in our history we went to the party (1991-1994) with a hardened-steel ladle and got what was due our people.
And then some.
When the time is right, and we are ready, these mange wolves will be compelled to kneel down and eat their words.
Got bless the heroic people of Artsakh.
God bless the heroic people of RoA.
God bless our mountain Warriors.
God bless the Great Armenian Nation.
ps: Ms. Toumani should apologize to our Turkish neighbors for all the hate Armenians harbor towards peace loving Turks, which caused the peaceful Turk Tolga Adıgüzel to expresses such uncharacteristic feelings towards the gyavurs: all out fault.
We urge Ms. Toumani to meet in person with peace loving Turk Mr. Adıgüzel and apologize on behalf of hate filled Armenians.
Good points. The most sickening part of that statement of “hunting for Armenians in the streets of Kars” is that they are aliens and Kars is an Armenian city under occupation.
PS, Mrs Bruskin (“Ms Toumani”) seems to be quiet lately.
“On July 5, participants of a march protesting China’s treatment of Turkic Uighurs—organized by the Istanbul chapter of the Grey Wolves—attacked a group of Korean tourists in central Istanbul, mistaking them for Chinese nationals.”
Ok come on. That’s a little funny.
Oh no, it is not funny at all!! It is the textbook definition of racism.
However, nothing new for Turkey; 60 years ago, on 6-7th September, 1955, Turkish mobs attacked Armenians as well as Greeks, on false pretenses. The Cyprus crisis and the provocations (by the Turkish state no less) had nothing to do with Armenians. I guess Armenians looked like Greeks in their eyes, so why not take advantage of the situation and attack them too!!!
Your comments are insulting to the extreme…
RVDV, Deep State Turkey has many colorful faces, where some believing in Grey Wolf fanaticism, and comparing their behavior with Uighuristani Grey Wolf packs, who viciously and forcefully occupied Western Armenia, during and after 11-Th Century!
What’s even funnier, I read those nuts trashed a Chinese restaurant in Istanbul (Happy China Restaurant) as well… except the owner happened to be a Turk with Uighur employees. The owner said his business was already bad, so now there was no reason to reopen, and his investment turned into a total loss, thanks to “Turkish Nationalism”.
The facebook group apparently associated with them is calling themselves “Turancı Hareket Platformu”.
Is that supposed to be “Grey Wolf Turk Nationalist Logic”? You are people X and mad at people Z for oppressing people Y, therefore go attack people X and Y which have nothing to do with Z.
Years ago a similar incident happened in Belgium, when “Kurds did such and such thing in Turkey” therefore the logic of Nationalist Turk Grey Wolves was to attack an Armenian cafe owner and trash his restaurant. This trait must be in their DNA.
“What’s even funnier, I read those nuts trashed a Chinese restaurant in Istanbul (Happy China Restaurant) as well… except the owner happened to be a Turk with Uighur employees.”
That is, indeed, funnier.
Funny as in shaking our heads at the stupidity of racists, I’m guessing.
Random: yes absolutely. I just imagine a bunch of brainless nationalists attacking the first Asian people they see. I can laugh at it or become really depressed at the stupidity of nationalist Turks,who are the majority.
{“the stupidity of nationalist Turks,who are the majority.”}
tragically, even stupid people can fire a gun, wield an ax, or a yatağan when told to do so by evil & smart people (authority).
to wit, Ogün Samast is not a particularly bright young man: far from it. Yet he was able to easily murder a very valuable, unique human being, who is worth 100s of the likes of Samasts to a civilized society. and those who told him to do it are still at large, of course.
the fact that this people are the majority in Turkey is even scarier.
RVDV,
I’m sure other racists are criticizing them for mistaking Koreans for Chinese.
“100s of the likes of Samasts”
100 times 0 is still 0 ;)
Lol. Wish I went to the Hamasyan concert in the Ani ruins! How cool does that sound!!!?!
In regards to the comment made by the Turkish Grey Wolves Organization claiming that Turks should start a hunt for Armenians in the streets of Kars. after world renowned Armenian Pianist Tigran Hamasyan performed a concert at the ruins of Ani on June 21st. This should be a wake up call for Armenians traveling to Turkey in the days to come. The Turks will never change until the world powers start putting pressure on stopping trade agreements with them and to remove them out of NATO.
Stephen, West already knows, that double standard Turks are useless NATO member, who support international Islamic terrorist organizations.
They will wait until Turkey collapse by herself, like Syria, then The Great Powers once again will make decision for the faith of “new Turkey”, and rewrite the treaty of Lausanne, or treaty of Kars, like the fall of Ossmani Caliphate, during WW1.
The irony is that there is a linguistic and possible genetic affinity between central Asian Turkic speakers and Koreans, Mongols, I believe. Not so w Han. Oops.
stephen T Dulgarian by any chance are your parents from Sivaz? my father modified our family name to Durgerian he was born in Sivaz his hather name was Hovagim they called him Ovag if this makes any sense respond or disregard.
The Armenians in Turkey, their outspoken representatives in particular, should wake up from their false sense of security and refrain from making such public statements to draw attention to themselves and they should also stop make-believing that the Turkish judiciary and therefore the Turkish government, since the judiciary in Turkey exists to serve the government instead of the government being accountable to the judiciary, will apply the law equally to them when the government itself had a major role in the secret murder of the late Hrant Dink in his outspoken stand on the Turkish-Armenian issues and the genocide.
What Armenians in Turkey should do instead is to learn from the Turks themselves, act smart and use one of the Turkish methods of dealing with such anti-Armenian racists: Make him disappear quietly without a trace and then stand aside and watch the opposing sides accuse each other of his disappearance and enjoy the show.
{“What Armenians in Turkey should do instead….”}
Armenians in Turkey do not have the resources or the organization to carry out such an operation.
There should be no doubt that all Armenian organizations in Turkey are infiltrated by Turkish MIT.
Any Operation Nemesis 2.0 will be betrayed and shut down before it gets off the ground.
In any case we now have an Armenian state: it is the responsibility of the State of Armenians to eliminate any existential threats to Armenians.
And to do that _Every_ _One_ of _Us_ _Must_ do everything in our power to strengthen the Armenian state.
Unfortunately too many Armenians, both in RoA and Armenian Diaspora, are inadvertently working to weaken the Armenian state.
Especially in the Armenian Diaspora in the West (US).
Tolga Adıgüzel is a private individual.
He has no diplomatic immunity.
He can be taken out with no diplomatic repercussions.
Russian intelligence services have been taking out Chechen terrorist leaders hiding in Turkey*.
Armenian NSS lacks no brains or daring: they only lack means.
Some of the best, most daring intelligence agents of USSR KGB were ethnic Armenians.
Our people lack only numbers and means.
Let us all work towards that goal.
—–
* http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=russian-agents-responsible-for-chechen-killings-in-istanbul-police-reveals-2011-10-01
{A Russian strike team of eight agents was responsible for the killing of three Chechens in Istanbul on Sept. 16, according to a special report by daily Habertürk.}
That’s the way to do it.
And how is murder going to help things?
Besides, do you not understand Turkey? These guys are all over the place. If one goes, there are many, many from which to choose from to replace him. What you suggest doesn’t make sense on several levels.
Knocking people off is for the uncreative mind. You can do better than that.
Random:
Your kind of “creative” mind would have abandoned Artsakh to Turkbaijanis, since there were 7 million in Azerbaijan in early 90s and only 150,000 Armenians in Artsakh.
I take my cue from our mountain warriors of Artsakh.
You can take your cue from whatever bogus “creative” minds you like.
btw: it would not be, quote, “murder”; when a nationalist Turk threatens to murder defenseless Armenians, as if they are animals (hunt), and given that many, many, many…many, Armenians have been murdered by nationalist Turks, then the God given right of self-defense fully applies.
US President Obama had a US citizen, Anwar Al-Awlaki, and his 16-year-old son executed, extrajudicially.
Was Al-Awlaki convicted in a US court of law of any crime ? No.
His “crime” was that he was calling for killing of Americans.
Using that threat as legal justification, Obama had him killed.
So if US, you know, the country that lectures the World about law, due process, and all that baloney, can legally (?) justify the killing of a US citizen who had not been convicted of any crime, then certainly Armenians, who as you may have heard were brought to the brink of extinction by nationalist, Anti-Armenian Turks, can amply justify the field execution of a nationalist Turk who threatens the existence of Armenians.
[Armenian community infuriated by holding of Ramadan meal in Istanbul church]
http://news.am/eng/news/277192.html
{On July 9, the church council and the Sarıyer district municipality organized a sahur at the churchyard, reported Agos Armenian bilingual weekly of Istanbul. Later it turned out, however, that the church council had not received permission from the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople to hold a sahur.}
Like I said: you never know which one of Turkish-Armenian leaders are working for Turkish authorities.
“Your kind of “creative” mind would have abandoned Artsakh to Turkbaijanis, since there were 7 million in Azerbaijan in early 90s and only 150,000 Armenians in Artsakh. ”
How do you come up with this stuff? What I’m talking about has nothing to do with Artsakh. I’m talking about the idea of killing some nutjob nationalist Turk who’s suggesting hunting Armenians in Kars. You’re bringing up the war with Azeris who actually came to us with guns and intent to kill. There’s a time and place for everything. I just don’t think knocking off this guys is the right way to respond. Let alone the moral one. What’s being suggested is murder. If that Turk came at Armenians to maim or kill, and he’s killed in return, that would be self-defence and justifiable. If he’s sitting in his office babbling racist suggestions, and he’s killed for it, that’s murder. And would legally be murder pretty much any country.
You’re also comparing the actions of a government, vs regular members of a community.
Besides, such actions would most likely inspire nationalists to start attacking minorities in Turkey, including Armenians. Seriously, if a nationalist makes anti-Armenian comments and is later killed, who do you think they will assume did it?!
On top of that, do you know how many such nationalists exist in Turkey? Many, many times more than the Armenian community in Turkey.
You get very silly at times Avery. And I can’t believe I’m responding to such silliness.
Random – I have said it many times before and I will say it again. The problem with some Armenians is that they have short memories and try to act proper and civil with many of these fascist Turks when being proper, civilized and acting in accordance with the rule of law is the furthest things from reality in their minds AND when it comes to dealing with the Armenians in particular. What you are preaching here is out of context. I don’t know where you were raised but I am guessing in the United States and what you laid out here in dealing with such people is only an “American” dream.
The hidden message and the true intentions of this anti-Armenian racist Turk making such statements to hunt down Armenians in Kars is quite clear to me. He is reminding your kinds of 1915 when they went house to house hunting for Armenians and I don’t have to tell you how it ended. What he said is nothing short of his intentions to incite violence against the Armenians and here you are suggesting that we follow the “American” fairy tale of a legal system to deal with him. Good luck with that because you are going to need it.
The old days of the so-called “loyal millet” mentality is long over. The way you stop venomous snakes from sinking their fangs into you to paralyze and kill you is to take proactive action and cut their venomous heads off to eliminate their threat like the heroes of Artsakh Liberation War did to the likes of this racist in the battlefield. I’m guessing most of them, if not all, did not the opportunity to return home once they arrived there.
Ararat,
How is going around killing these SOBs going to help? What will the outcome be? How will this solve a problem? Please explain what will happen if your plan is acted upon?
Let’s say a vigilante group starts knocking off these guys one by one? What will happen as a result? Will things improve? If so how? What do you picture the outcome to be?
There are way too many of these. Kill one of the snake’s head and another will grow.
And the situation that the Armenians in Turkey are is not comparable to Artsakh in terms of means available to them, geography and demography. Artsakh was a war with hastily put together armies involving heavy weapons and tanks and holding ground against an invasion. You’re proposing assassinations action against ultranationalists individuals. Not the same thing.
Just so you know, I know exactly what this SOB is trying to tell us Armenians. That’s not in doubt by anyone here.
And it seems so easy for you to tell others that they should go and kill people, putting themselves and families in danger.
Aside from killing people being wrong, what you’re proposing makes no practical sense either.
1) there are way too many of these guys.
2) they will correctly assume it’s the work of Armenians and attack the Armenian community in Turkey.
How delightful it would be if we had a president of Armenia, who was as patriotic, noble, and caring about the Armenian people as Garo Paylan is, as opposed to that disgraceful failure of Serzh, whose regime continuously neglects the citizens of Armenia, and furthermore, shamefully allows itself to be fully controlled by Moscow. With so much Russian corruption pervasive in Armenia today, combined with its shrinking population (as a result of the massive yearly departure of Armenians from their homeland), the state of Armenia is therefore being weakened. In fact, its existence is threatened by all of this. But, as usual, Sargsyan’s admirers persist in their denialism by pretending that these threats are not weakening the state of Armenia in any particular way, and that it is instead the Armenians in the diaspora (especially the West) who are weakening the state of Armenia. Exactly how? This again shows how Sargsyan’s neurotic admirers are so desperate in inventing ridiculous stories to cover up the horrible failures of their foul, incompetent hero.
Yerevanian, I assume you are a diaspora Armenian. There must be something very wrong with your logic.
I would like to see you saying something positive, yet have not. Only negative. What a miserable being you are. Can you just close your ….. just a little bit. Providence has given you brains, use it, do not gap gap.
Anahita,
Misguided Armenian nation by handful of corrupted MP’s and governmental officials will go to no where, but to endangering, and weakening Armenia’s national security, where our natural enemies waiting for their opportunities, for an invasion. Russian style economy system will never work for a weak Armenia. Corruption eating our beloved nation inside out. If you visit Armenia and see your countrymen poor disastrous life style outside of Yerevan, and ignore them, then you are a fake “nationalist” Armenian, and does not matter if you are a diaspora from Russia, or even from US.
” Russian style economy system will never work for a weak Armenia. Corruption eating our beloved nation inside out. ”
And this is an issue. A country the size of Russia with oil wealth can lumber along for quite a while, even with the inefficiency caused by the level of corruption. But a land-locked Armenia with under 3mil population, the corruption has a far larger impact.
Anahid Keusseyan,
So, because I’m a diaspora Armenian, therefore, means that there must be something very wrong with my logic? Where’s the logic in that? In addition, this also shows that you have a very negative view about the Armenian diaspora.
“I would like to see you saying something positive, yet have not. Only negative. What a miserable being you are.”
It’s not me who’s the cause of your misery. It’s the oppressively hot and humid weather that’s making you feel this way. What you need to do is turn on your air conditioner full blast, while you sit down and drink a glass of refreshing lemonade. And then, you’ll see how much better you’ll begin to feel.
Yerevanian Yerevanian:
What you need, before you and your 20 friends go and sit in the middle of Vermont and Sunset in East Hollywood, is to sit down and drink a cool glass of refreshing lemonade. Maybe with a little something extra to give youse a little more buzz, homes.
That way, when LA’s finest, LAPD, show up and start raining blows on youse and 20 of your best fiends for illegally occupying a public street in these United States, the pain will be a little easier to bear.
Take care.
Have fun with LAPD.
Don’t forget to write from LA Central Jail.
(assuming you have not hurt your fingers resisting arrest: a felony).
{“Russian style economy system will never work for a weak Armenia.”}
Western style economy has been doing wonders for Greece.
Armenia should definitely emulate Greece.
Same with Ukraine: after the Western style economy came to town, Ukraine is facing bankruptcy. They can’t even pay for the gas they have already consumed. Maybe global warming will save them from freezing to death this winter.
Greece is in trouble because of corruption and their policies. Other western style economies in Europe and North America even in places like South Korea are doing very well.
When you have a high level of corruption, even the best of economic policies are undermined.
What style of economy do you suggest would be best for Armenia?
{Greece is in trouble because of corruption and their policies. Other western style economies in Europe and North America […] are doing very well.}
But Greece is a democracy, Random, your least imperfect form of government that’s being suggested for Armenia to adopt. And, no, not all western style economies in Europe are doing very well. From time to time some of them, e.g. Italy, Spain, et al, face serious economic problems. How come a democracy like Greece and an obscure form of government as Armenia are facing the same problem of high-level corruption? Shouldn’t western style democracy be panacea from most societal ills?
Democracy is like a gun, which you can shoot yourself in the foot with if you’re careless and not keeping your house in order.
Democracy does not prevent you from one’s own stupidity.
Monarchy is like a gun, which you can shoot yourself in the foot with if you’re careless and not keeping your house in order.
Fascism is like a gun, which you can shoot yourself in the foot with if you’re careless and not keeping your house in order.
People’s Republic is like a gun, which you can shoot yourself in the foot with if you’re careless and not keeping your house in order.
Theocracy is like a gun, which you can shoot yourself in the foot with if you’re careless and not keeping your house in order.
Replace ‘democracy’ with almost any other form of government and same will be true for nearly all of them. Then, what is democracy’s distinctive feature? The name?
{Democracy does not prevent you from one’s own stupidity.}
You mean the entire eligible population of Greece that chose a representative government were all stupid? You mean the US taxpayers, who ended up covering trillions of dollars for the financial crash of 2008, based on Avery’s example, were all stupid? But they elected representatives whose job in the Congress on their behalf is to prevent constituencies from being screwed… How could it happen, then, in the American or Greek ‘democracies’?
Greeks are like a kid who’s been raised on his parent’s credit card, where people were retiring at age 60 and government were paying them handsomely with their full wages and benefits.
Most working class Greeks had very comfortable none productive charmed life. Greece government, used to borrow money from hard working Germans and French, and paying to those lazy Greeks, who were flocking around coffee shops and playing backgammon during day times, and going after women in the bars and night clubs at night times.
Ukraine is a “political game” between East and West, where people paying the price of dirty games of politics, and that should never ever happen to Armenia.
Armenia needs to find a solution for their own term. Since 1990 independence of Armenia until today, most Armenians never overcome with Communist era corruption habits, where the boss (oligarch or Nakharar) paying money to their favored people in order to get a favor back for more corruption, and that has to stop first, before going to overhaul the economy system of Armenia.
{Most Armenians never overcome with Communist era corruption habits, where the boss (oligarch or Nakharar) paying money to their favored people in order to get a favor back for more corruption, and that has to stop first.}
This is what us, Diasporans, were taught to believe as part of ideological brainwashing against the USSR. At a younger age I thought so, too, before I became mature and knowledgeable enough to be able to compare—as part of my work in social history—the level of corruption during the Communist era and the post-independence era. I say in all certainty that corruption during the Communist era pales in comparison to the corruption in the post-independence era. Reminiscent of Gargantua and Pantagruel.
And, GB, there were no oligarchs or nakharars in the Communist era.
Greece was screwed over, royally, by the same financial wizards that caused the crash of 2008 in US.
Were US taxpayers, who ended up covering the $1.5 Trillion loss, also like kids ? ($1.5 Trillion is US Gov estimate: independent estimates are several trillion cost to US taxpayers)
There is a lot of information about the role that Goldman Sachs played, for example, in loading up the Greek taxpayers with crushing debt: do some research before repeating the standard lines being fed to the gullible public.
Same way the mortgage pyramid scheme was engineered in US: banksters made $100s of billions while the pyramid was going, and when it crashed, American taxpayers were forced to cover the losses.
The billions banksters made prior to the crash stayed in their coffers.
Nice.
MSM rags on “lazy” Greeks to obscure the role that the US and US controlled financial institutions played in the financial enslaving and looting of EU member Greece.
And this latest financial “rescue” is the icing on the cake: Greeks are being forced to sell everything (islands, railroads, shipping,..) at firesale prices.
And if people try hard enough, maybe they can find a connection and blame Russia for that too.
On a separate subject, Random.
In “Sleeping with Our Enemy: Russia Sells Weapons to Azerbaijan” you criticized the Russian arms sale foam at the mouth, figuratively speaking. However, we see no comment of yours in the thread “US OSCE Co-Chair Is Sounding More Like Aliyev”, which tells us that a high-ranking US envoy, tasked with resolving the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh, has recently stated that the “occupied territories of Azerbaijan must be returned to Azeri control as part of a comprehensive settlement of the conflict”. Don’t you find it, mildly put, strange to keep silence on this subject while choosing to profusely criticize the Russian arms sale? Do you think that an explicitly anti-Armenian statement of the US government’s official position on the mode of settlement of the conflict is less harmful than the Russian arms sale? If you consider yourself a concerned Armenian, however random, one would expect at least equal level of criticism in both cases… Don’t you think?
john,
The US does have anywhere near the leverage that Russia has over Armenia. Armenia would be nowhere without Russian military support. Not to mention oil and natural gas and ownership of so much of Armenia’s infrastructure. If Russia said what the US envoy said, then the game is pretty much over. It was upsetting to hear what he said, but he won’t be able to change the situation on the ground.
And as for Russian arms sales, I hear nothing but apologetic excuses regarding the billions of dollars worth of tanks, planes and long range missiles being sold to the Azeris. Seriously, who is this not something to be concerned about? Even Harut Sassounian and Armenian officials including the present expressed their discontent over it!
Again, Russia is the one who pulls the levers as to the sovereignty of Artsakh, despite the bravery shown by the Armenian soldiers on the front line. The military situation right now is not the same as it was up to the ceasefire in 1994.
{If Russia said what the US envoy said, then the game is pretty much over. It was upsetting to hear what he said, but he won’t be able to change the situation on the ground.}
Even if the US envoy won’t be able to change the situation on the ground, it is still an expression of the US government’s official position on the mode of settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, i.e. “occupied territories of Azerbaijan must be returned to Azeri control”. It is an unambiguous proclamation of the position of one of the three co-chairmen to the OSCE’s Minsk Group to the effect that his respective government sees the return of occupied territories to Azeri control as part of a comprehensive settlement of the conflict. This is very alarming. If Russian arms sale was upsetting from the military perspective, the statement by an official representative of the US government is upsetting from both political and diplomatic perspectives. Yet, you only criticized foam at the mouth the Russian arms sale. Do you think you’re showing a nuanced approach? By the way, Russian arms sale also won’t be able to change the situation on the ground, because Russia at least won’t allow one side to the conflict to have military superiority over the other.
“Russian arms sale also won’t be able to change the situation on the ground, because Russia at least won’t allow one side to the conflict to have military superiority over the other.”
Yes, and that’s not where Armenia should be. You want superiority over the Azeris so they will not consider attacking. But Russia won’t let Armenia have superiority over Azerbaijan.
Russian military sales in billions to Azerbaijan is a greater threat to us than the US rep’s anti-Armenian stance.
Even if Russian military sales to Azerbaijan is, as you think, a greater threat to Armenia than the “US rep’s anti-Armenian stance”, we still saw no comment of yours expressing ‘lesser’, so to speak, concern about the latter either in this thread or in “US OSCE Co-Chair Is Sounding More Like Aliyev”. What, do you think, could such a highly disproportionate stance of yours tell the wider audience of readers? By the way, a statement by the official representative of the United States government to an international organization cannot, by definition, be just a “US rep’s anti-Armenian stance”. Any US rep, within his or her remit, expresses his or her government’s not his or her personal position on the issue.
{Russian military sales in billions to Azerbaijan is a greater threat to us than the US rep’s anti-Armenian stance.}
Political statement refers to a form of communication that is intended to enunciate the formal position of a government on whose behalf the statement is being made. As such, the recent statement made by the US OSCE Co-Chair is deplorable and alarming, because the Minsk Group is tasked with encouraging a negotiated resolution (i.e. an agreement or compromise reached by way of discussion with other party or parties) to the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. Whereas its US Co-Chair makes a statement in which he emphasizes a resolution acceptable only to one party to the conflict, essentially a non-negotiated resolution. I don’t believe you really mean it when you say that such a statement is less of a threat than the Russian arms sale. Based on such twisted way of thinking, greater threats to a nation can only be of military nature? Is this what you’re saying? Could an economic blockade be a great threat? Could an asset freeze be a great threat? Could a cyber attack be a great threat? Could a subversive intelligence operation be a great threat? Could a political statement by a representative of a foreign government be a great threat? Well, the answer is that all of them—individually and combined—can be great threats to a nation, and not less harmful than arms sales. And, again, one would expect that an unbiased, concerned Armenian be equally critical of each of those threats.
{Yes, and that’s not where Armenia should be. You want superiority over the Azeris so they will not consider attacking. But Russia won’t let Armenia have superiority over Azerbaijan.}
This is exactly where Armenia should be because we’re not considering resumption of military operations. Armenians are defending the lands that were won in great sacrifice and courage. And no, equitable relationship of armed forces can also prevent your enemy from attacking. Had the Azeris felt for a split second they had a superiority, they would have attacked.
John,
Seems to me that you have graduated from Moscow university, who become an expert in Armenia’s socioeconomic system. I wonder what would be your honest opinion about Armenia’s chronic governmental corrupted “nakharars” and ex communist MP’s, and governors, and newly self crowned fake nationalists, who are sucking blood out of ordinary Armenian families, where their sons and daughters protecting our beloved and sacred land against Turkic herds, with their half empty stomach!
I will repeat the same, what I posted previously, for smart people like you!
“If you visit Armenia and see your countrymen poor disastrous life style outside of Yerevan, and ignore them, then you are a fake “nationalist” Armenian, and does not matter if you are a diaspora from Russia, or even from US”.
This is the acumen of your intellectual capacity, GB? If one states that the corruption during the Communist era pales in comparison to the corruption in the post-independence era, it means he has graduated from Moscow University? Jesus Christ… And I’m not an expert on Armenia’s socioeconomic system. Nowhere in my comment have I laid claim to being such an expert. My opinion about Armenia’s chronic governmental corruption is very negative and I from time to time criticize the current administration and some of their antipopular policies. However, it won’t change the fact that the modern-day corruption is disproportionately bigger and more ruthless as compared to the Communist era. I advise you to stop parroting those propagandistic clichés (I used to believe them too, I confess) that everything in the Soviet Union was bad. This is outrightly stupid.
“Do you think that an explicitly anti-Armenian statement of the U.S. government’s official position on the mode of settlement of the conflict is less harmful than the Russian arms sale?”
How is it possible to compare an anti-Armenian statement made by a foolish U.S. diplomat with the enormously more harmful Russian sale of four billion dollars worth of arms to Armenia’s mortal enemy (Azerbaijan)?
In addition, let’s also not forget that the other two members of the OSCE Minsk group, France and Russia (Armenia’s “ally”), have not expressed any kind of opposition to Warlick’s anti-Armenian statements. As a matter of fact, along with the United States, France and Russia “have developed this bad habit of very openly lecturing the Armenian side about exactly what they must surrender, while remaining effectively silent about any specific concessions they expect of Azerbaijan. This isn’t mediation; it’s public intimidation.”
“Warlick and the other co-chairman (France and Russia) are embracing and buttressing Baku’s victim mentality, thus providing it cover and carte blanche to advance its military rhetoric and continue its attacks on Karabagh and Armenian forces.”
The bottom line is that the United States, France, and Russia, are all equally guilty of being anti-Armenian and pro-Azerbaijani in regard to the Artsakh issue.
Europe is dependent on oil and natural gas supplies from Azerbaijan. Israel gets about 40% of oil from them as well. Independence and self-determination of others mean nothing when you have to have energy supplies.
{How is it possible to compare an anti-Armenian statement made by a foolish U.S. diplomat with the enormously more harmful Russian sale of four billion dollars worth of arms to Azerbaijan?}
How? Simple. By using little grey cells. If, of course, one has them. One that has them would quickly grasp that Warlick is not just a ‘foolish U.S. diplomat’, but the official representative of the United States government to the international organization, the OSCE, tasked with encouraging a peaceful, negotiated resolution to the conflict in Nagorno-Karabakh. One that has little grey cells would quickly grasp that in international politics harm can be done not only in military, but also in a variety of political, diplomatic, economic, cyber, etc. ways. One that has little grey cells would quickly grasp that Russian sale of four billion dollars worth of arms to Azerbaijan can be compensated by transfer of equal or larger and more modern arms to the Armenian side. Whereas statement of the US envoy does a perpetual harm because it outlines unambiguously the official position of the US government on the mode of settlement of the conflict. Simple.
No, not simple! “One that has little grey cells would quickly grasp that the Russian sale of four billion dollars worth of arms to Azerbaijan can be compensated by transfer of equal or larger and more modern arms to the Armenian side.”
Well, this again shows your extreme lack of grey cells or any other kind of cells for that matter, by persistently attempting to minimize Russia’s gigantic and extremely harmful sale of military equipment to Armenia’s mortal enemy (Azerbaijan), which is for the purpose of killing Armenians. And, how can you possibly compensate for all those precious Armenian soldiers who are being killed by those Russian military arms from the Azerbaijani side of the border? Furthermore, the amount of arms that Russia has provided to Armenia is nowhere close to the four billion dollars worth of arms it’s provided to Azerbaijan.
“Warlick is not just a foolish U.S. diplomat, but the official representative of the United States government to the OSCE, tasked with encouraging a peaceful, negotiated resolution to the conflict in Nagorno-Karabagh.” And as usual, you left out the OSCE Minsk group’s Russian representative, who along with the United States, lectures the Armenian side about what they must surrender, while being totally silent about any kind of concessions they expect from Azerbaijan. By being anti-Armenian and pro-Azerbaijani in regard to the Artsakh conflict, the Russian representative is therefore doing an equal amount of harm as the U.S. representative is doing.
{The OSCE Minsk group’s Russian representative […] lectures the Armenian side about what they must surrender}
With inimitable grey cells of yours do please make a push and produce evidence for all of us when the Russian Co-chair lectured the Armenian side about what they must surrender.
john,
I would think that grey cells would tell us you’d want dominance instead of parity with Azerbaijan which is priming its population to kill Armenians.
Random,
In your non-military expertise, and mine, not necessarily at the time of dormant, noncombat, no peace-no war situation, which the Armenian side has secured by achieving a victory, at least in the Phase One. “Invincibility lies in the defense; the possibility of victory in the attack”. I think the second part of this Sun Tzu quote, at this point, relates mainly to the Azeris, while the first part pertains to the Armenian side. Again, if the Azeris know they have superiority (in part because of a Russian arms sale which you so hyperbolize while downsizing the official position of the U.S. on the conflict resolution conveyed via her envoy), why don’t they attack? Might you know?
Is this reply to my post addressed to ‘Yerevanian’ all you could produce in response to my inquiries addressed to you directly?
So now, out of desperation, the Kremlin’s representative is attempting to convince us that the Russian Co-chair of the OSCE Minsk group is not lecturing the Armenian side about what it must surrender? Well, if the Russian Co-Chair is not lecturing the Armenian side about what it must surrender (along with the United States and France), then exactly what is he doing at those meetings? Because, he’s certainly not doing any kind of lecturing to the Azerbaijani side. In fact, along with the U.S. and French CO-chairs, the Russian Co-chair is being very supportive of Azerbaijan.
You can sling mud and blow hot air till you’re blue in the face, but if you fail to produce evidence that “the OSCE Minsk group’s Russian representative lectures the Armenian side about what they must surrender”, then it’d be rightly assumed that you’re none other than a petty agent provocateur.
Well, instead of slinging so much Kremlin propaganda, why don’t you carefully read the July 16th Armenian Weekly article, titled “US OSCE Co-chair Is Sounding More Like Aliyev.” You obviously did a very poor job in reading this article. Let me take the time to read to you what it says in the ninth paragraph of that article, which obviously shows that the Russian Co-chair participates in lecturing to the Armenian side what it must surrender.
“The Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA) astutely observed that the OSCE Co-chairs (this obviously refers to the U.S., Russia, and France) have developed this bad habit of very openly lecturing the Armenian side about exactly what they must surrender, while remaining effectively silent about any specific concessions they expect of Azerbaijan.”
Well, what sort of an absurd, desperate excuse is the representative from the Kremlin going to come up with now to go against all this?
Your comment excites pity.
The said article says absolutely nothing in particular about Russia and France representatives. “The OSCE Co-chairs” could be just a generalization that is oftentimes used in such formal statements in order to avoid singling out a person or act or event. You miserably failed to produce evidence (i.e. the available body of facts or information proving that a statement is true) to the effect that the OSCE Minsk group’s Russian representative has ever lectured the Armenian side about what they must surrender. Moreover, you went on blowing more hot air by deciding that the OSCE Russian rep was “anti-Armenian and pro-Azerbaijani in regard to the Artsakh conflict”, and made even more foolish non sequitur that the Russian rep is therefore doing an equal amount of harm as the U.S. representative is doing.”
You, Sir, are—therefore—none other but agent provocateur. For all to hear.
Your absurd, desperate excuses to exclude Russia from any kind of wrongdoing, excite enormous laughter.
When ANCA was talking about “the OSCE Co-chairs,” it obviously was not referring to only the U.S. Co-chair. It was referring to all three Co-chairs. Also don’t forget that the Russian and French Co-chairs have not disagreed in any way to Warlick’s recent statements. In addition, “Warlick and the other co-chairmen (Russia and France) are embracing and buttressing Baku’s victim mentality, thus providing it cover and carte blanche to advance its military rhetoric and continue its attacks on Karabagh and Armenian forces.” Therefore, all three Co-chairs are doing an equal amount of harm against the Armenian side.
You have miserably failed to produce any kind of evidence that goes against my evidence. Furthermore, by continuously slinging all that Kremlin propaganda nonsense about the OSCE Russian representative not being pro-Azerbaijani in regard to the Artsakh conflict, again shows that you must therefore be an agent from the Kremlin.
You, Sir, are just one big bubblehead and agent provocateur. Everyone who’s read this thread comment after comment would see that you said that the OSCE Russian Co-chair has “lectured the Armenian side about what they must surrender” and then failed to support your statement with any evidence. Readers with the amount of little grey cells larger than yours would understand that there is no need to produce any evidence for the OSCE US rep’s statement, because “Vedomosti” and a host Armenian and Azeri online publications have confirmed that Warlick had said that “occupied territories of Azerbaijan must be returned to Azeri control”. You can broil with anger until you get a biliary attack, but this won’t change the fact that the US rep has done more harm to the Armenian side by way of his statement that the Russian rep who hardly ever made such an Armenophibic statement. Kremlin, by the way, has nothing to do with laying out plain facts. Only a person with twisted mind would find any connection between statement of the fact and Kremlin propaganda.
The laughter that you’ve produced here with your absurd, desperate excuses to exclude your Russia from any kind of wrongdoing, is just too enormous. And, as always, it’s a pleasure for me to pop that big bubble on top of your shoulders and make you look extremely foolish in front of the whole entire crowd. Contrary to you who hasn’t shown the slightest bit of evidence to back up your absurd Kremlin propaganda claims, I’ve shown plenty of evidence in my comments to prove that your Russian Co-chair compatriot is equally as guilty as the American and French Co-chairs in doing an equal amount of harm against the Armenian side. Therefore, if you still refuse to accept the evidence, then feel free anytime to take out your broiling anger on me, which will therefore give me another opportunity to pop that bubble on top of your shoulders.
{“ And as for Russian arms sales, I hear nothing but apologetic excuses regarding the billions of dollars worth of tanks, planes and long range missiles being sold to the Azeris.”}
We give reasoned, rational explanations, and you only see “apologetic excuses”, because of your biases and agenda.
Again: Azerbaijan can buy weapons from anyone in the world, and does, including Israel, Turkey, and a dozen other counties.
Israel would have no compunction selling “tanks, planes, and long range missiles…” in any quantity.
And there would absolutely no control over their use: Israel couldn’t care less.
{“… and Armenian officials including the present expressed their discontent over it!”}
Armenian officials, including the President and the DM, are asked by reporters the question: “Mr so and so, are you concerned about Russia, your strategic ally, selling weapons to Azerbaijan…?”
Here are the only possible answers:
1)No comment (..wild rumors start flying within minutes…)
2)Were are very happy.
3)We are concerned, of course. We are working with our allies to address the issue. (…the issue is addressed by giving RoA game-changer Iskander missiles).
{“It was upsetting to hear what he said, but he won’t be able to change the situation on the ground.”}
The callous disregard for Armenian lives is clearly obvious here: “…upsetting..” ?
Every time US officials mouth off about “occupied territories”, or about releasing terrorist murderers on “humanitarian” (sic) grounds, or about the alleged “territorial integrity” of the criminal, terrorist state, the criminals and the terrorists get the green light and intensify their attacks at the LOC.
What may be “…upsetting…” for you, is tragic for Armenian parents in Armenia and Artsakh whose young son, sometimes the only son, is KIA defending Armenian lands from Turkic invaders.
btw: Turkic invaders use Israeli and Turkish made small arms, radio sets, night vision equipment, sniper rifles, etc during these attacks.
Armenian young men killed by Israeli and Turkish weapons: but that is not sufficiently “upsetting” for you, is it ?
As [John] so aptly put it above: “If you consider yourself a concerned Armenian, however random, one would expect at least equal level of criticism in both cases… Don’t you think?”.
You criticize “…the Russian arms sale foam at the mouth, figuratively speaking…”, yet you are only “upset” when US officials encourage Azerbaijani criminals and terrorists to kill and murder Armenians ?
Avery,
You must be very naive, that Russian made military night vision equipment does not exist in Axerbaijani army, after billion dollars worth of military equipment sold to Axerbaijan! Russian made night vision is one one of the best and cheapest in the world.
https://www.google.ca/search?q=russian+made+military+night+vision&gws_rd=cr,ssl&ei=K761VbzBLoKfyATz7bb4Cg
“Turkic invaders use Israeli and Turkish made small arms, radio sets, night vision equipment, sniper rifles, etc. during these attacks. Armenian young men killed by Israeli and Turkish weapons.” And what about the Russian weapons that are used in the Azerbaijani terrorist attacks? As usual, you’re desperately trying to cover up the much larger quantity of military arms (Russian arms) which are used in killing Armenian soldiers from the Azerbaijani side of the border. The Russian sale of four billion dollars worth of military arms to Azerbaijan is a whole lot more than Israel’s 1.6 billion dollar sale of military arms.
“We give reasoned, rational explanations, and you only see apologetic excuses, because of your biases and agenda.”
The persistent and desperate effort to minimize the gigantic Russian sale of military arms to Armenia’s mortal enemy (Azerbaijan) is certainly not the definition of reasoned, and rational explanations. On the contrary, that’s the definition of Russian nationalistic propaganda.
“Israel would have no compunction selling “tanks, planes, and long range missiles…” in any quantity.”
Last I checked, Israel does not sell their top home-grown tanks. They also don’t produce any war planes nor attack helicopters to sell.
Azeris may get hardware elsewhere but, in my non-military expertise, it still would not add up to the capabilities that Russian hardware can provide. The US does not seem to want to sell anything to either Armenia nor Azerbaijan. I don’t know how good the Turkish made tanks are. I would think Azeris would have bought Turkish tanks to help their brothers in crime with their exports.
Ideally Azerbaijan should be severely restricted or under an arms embargo for the genocidal rhetoric they’re making publicly. But I don’t see Russia doing that to protect their Orthodox Christian brothers and sisters of Armenia.
The issue here is mainly with what is Russia interests in the independence of Artsakh? What people are really expressing when they point out Russian arms sales is, “is Russia stabbing us in the back?”, “What does Russia want out of this?” “We are concerned that Azeris are getting billions in weapons”.
And the vibe I and others are getting from you is that it’s ok and nothing to be concerned about and we simply have no right to express any worries. Are you not worried about the arms sales? How do they make you feel, really?
I’m sorry but arms parity is not in the interest of Armenia.
And how do we know Armenia is in a military parity with the Azeris?
Random,
You direct so many questions to your opponents, but fail, at the same time, to produce an answer to one simple question, variations of which were asked by me and Avery. Here it is, again. How does it happen that you profusely criticized and continue to criticize Russia’s recent arms sale to the Azeris, but fail to utter one word—in your own volition—in denunciation of the recent statement by the official representative of the United States government to the effect that ‘occupied’ territories of Azerbaijan must be returned to Azeri control?
Need more time??
GB:
I may be naïve, but am quite sure that am a little better informed than you.
What does putting in a Google link to Russian made nigh-vision equipment prove ?
It proves nothing.
It simply shows your lack of specific relevant information in this case.
You have no proof Azerbaijan has purchased night vision equipment from Russia: maybe they have, maybe they haven’t.
Your conjecture is no proof.
You have no proof it has been used during the numerous incursions by Turkbaijnai special forces trained in Turkey.
I have proof Azerbaijan used Israeli made night vision equipment to invade Armenian lands and kill Armenians.
Here is my evidence:
[Yerevan Blames Baku for Losses Incurred in Azeri Attack]
http://asbarez.com/133198/yerevan-blames-baku-for-losses-incurred-in-azeri-attack/
{The enemy left various arms and ammunition on the field of battle, including AK make assault rifles with Israeli-made night-vision sights and silencers,……}
[Azerbaijani soldiers left weapons on battlefield (PHOTO)]
http://news.am/eng/news/257882.html
{In addition, the Azerbaijani soldiers threw weapons and ammunition on the battlefield, including AK-47 with night vision sights and Israeli-made silencer, sapper equipment, four grenade launchers, grenades, stripper clips, a large number of syringes.Unfortunately, NKR Defense Army servicemen Hakob Khachatryan (born in 1996), Eduard Hayrapetyan (born in 1995), and Arshak Harutyunyan (born in 1995) bravely died and four other soldiers were wounded while confronting the adversary, the NKR Ministry of Defense reported.
Show me your evidence that Russian-made equipment has been used during these attacks by Turkbaijanis.
Not inherited from Soviet Union: not purchased from numerous former Warsaw Pact licensees; Russian made and sold after 1991.
Then we’ll see.
“Show me your evidence that Russian-made equipment has been used during these attacks by Turkbaijanis.”
How enormously naïve a person must be to believe that Russian military equipment is not being used in Turkbaijani terrorist attacks against Armenia and Artsakh. Well, according to your irrational way of thinking, what exactly explains the reason for Sultan Aliyev’s purchase of four billion dollars worth of Russian military equipment? Did he perhaps purchase all those expensive toys to hang on the walls of his sumptuous palace?
Russia loves Armenia so much, that gave away only 4 billion dollars worth of military ornaments to her beloved oil Sheikhdom man. For sure In the next 3 years, the oil man will save more cash from Heidar Aliyev oil fields, in order to upgrade the Axerbaijani entire military hardware with much improved ones, where Russia’s Rosoboronexport will do for them, for about 5 billion dollars deal.
Clever Putin knows the mentality of corrupted Sultan Aliyev mind and corrupted Armenia’s beer belly puppet feudal “nakharars” who are willing to play Russian lullaby, for a good night sleep.
GB:
I produce specific evidence from Armenian public sources that Israeli military equipment was used in a specific raid by Turkbaijanis in which 4 Armenians young men were KIA.
That was just one case.
In other raids throughout 2014 and 2015, other Israel military equipment was also captured, e.g. company level tactical radio sets, for example.
I ask you to produce counter evidence that Russian military equipment was used during any of these incursions.
Instead of evidence, all you are able to produce are non sequiturs.
What does “Russia loves Armenia so much, that gave away only 4 billion dollars worth of military ornaments to her beloved oil Sheikhdom man” even mean ?
You have no facts; you have no evidence.
So you are producing nonsense slogans.
Very impressive.
Actually, what’s very unimpressive is how you continue to focus solely on the Turkbaijanis’ arsenal of Israeli military equipment, but pay absolutely no attention to their much larger arsenal of Russian military equipment. Armenian soldiers are killed every month; and you’re trying to suggest that Russian military equipment is not being used in any of these Turkbaijani terrorist attacks? How’s that possible?
Avery,
Putin Russia gave away 4 billion dollars worth of military hardware to Axerbaijan. You are repeating the same words of those fake Armenian MPs, who once a while having борщ (borshch) with Putin in Kremlin Palace!