Calls to Boycott Akhtamar Mass Gain Momentum
YEREVAN—Calls to boycott the scheduled mass at the Holy Cross Church in Akhtamar gained momentum and crossed party lines in Armenia this month, including a denouncement by the ruling Republican Party.
Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) political affairs director Giro Manoyan urged Armenians to boycott the mass, which is scheduled for Sept. 19 and is to be officiated by Archbishop Aram Ateshyan, who currently leads the Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul, reported Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty.
“I think it would be wrong to go there on a day set by Turkey and especially in these conditions of blockade and so on,” Manoyan told RFE/RL. “I don’t want to blame believers willing to go there but they must know that they somewhat contribute to the Turkish provocation.”
Manoyan expressed regret for the decision by His Holiness Karekin II, the Catholicos of All Armenians, to send two senior clerics to the Sourp Khatch (Holy Cross) Church for the mass. “I’m not sure that’s the right step,” Manoyan told RFE/RL.
But a spokesman for Karekin II rejected calls for the boycott. “We believe that if we are given an opportunity to cherish a shrine that had functioned for centuries but is devoid of prayer today for some reasons, we must use even that single day in order to assert our rights and ownership to the shrine with our participation,” Father Vahram Melikian told RFE/RL.
Meanwhile, President Serge Sarkisian’s Republican Party this week spoke out against Armenian participation in the mass. The party spokesman, Eduard Sharmazanov, denounced the Turkish government’s decision to reopen it for a one-day religious ceremony on Sept. 19 as a publicity stunt and “provocation” aimed at misleading the international community.
“Once again, instead of taking a serious step, the Turks are staging an imitation show,” Sharmazanov told RFE/RL’s Armenian service. “I don’t think you can achieve tolerance and solidarity of civilizations in that way.”
The mass will take place three years after the completion of a $1.5 million renovation of the church, funded by the Turkish government.
Ankara has promoted the upcoming ceremony as proof of its commitment to tolerance and a gesture of goodwill towards Armenians. Still, it has resisted calls to return the church, perched on the legendary Akhtamar Island in Lake Van, to the Armenian Church.
I think the Catholicos said it best. When we have an opportunity to bring an Armenian presence to a cherished shrine, we must assert our rights. Why must we boycott? Look everyone knows the Turks have politicized thiis event, but why is our response to not participate.
First, this is a holy site. This a 10th century gem of Armenian civilization where our beloved Khrimian Hairig once worshipped. It was lost as a result of the genocide, survived neglect and now our holy bardarak will be sung again in the land of Vasburagan. Our answer…. don’t go, it’s a Turkish trick.
Second, stop playing like a victim. Let’s beat the Turks at their own game. The press will ask question and we should be there to answer them.
1. It is another confirmation of the historic presence of Armenian in Van and
for that matter in Western Armenia.
2. What happened to the Chrisitian people of this area?
3. Where are the parishoners of this church?
4. Why have the Turks changed their view from this is not an Armenian
church… to it’s a museum… to its a churchand we can say mass once a
year?
This is an easy media angle to the genocide and the continued oppressive policies of the Turkish government:
1. This church must be returned to the Patriarchate
2. It must be a house of worship year round open to pilgrims
None of these opportunites can happen if we boycott. I am sorry bit on this one this, we need to participate. Stand tall on September 19 and face the Turks proudly with a “we are back”. The first row of Armenian pilgrims should be Vanetzis.
“Ankara has promoted the upcoming ceremony as proof of its commitment to tolerance and a gesture of goodwill towards Armenians.”
It’s like saying a person who is always abusive towards a spouse is looked upon as being tolerant and offering goodwill when instead of abusing seven days a week, the abuse would stop one day for a candlelight dinner? I agree with the boycott.
Why boycott? It’s not right, Peace will not happen if people fight over every little thing. People should go and enjoy the event.
This and all other churches should have always belonged to the Armenian community and the community should have used it accordingly all these years. Imagine if we had been using the church for services for the past centuries, and through 2010. Imagine if Turkey said – ok, we will no longer allow you to use the church except for one day out of the year and maybe just this one time. And they close down the church and allow services for just one day. That is not right. The church should have always been open and under the authority of the Armenian people. Would we be thankful and say “oh thank you for closing down our church except for one day out of the year…” ?
If we are serious about our cause, our emotions should first be directed at the opportunity to pray at our beautiful Holy Cross church. Instead our emotions are directied negatively towards the Turks because it galls us that they “are allowing us” this moment. Atdashes, I agree it is difficult, but if we are going to make progress we need to be focused on our goal.
A boycott can only be effective if it attacts attention by a lack of presence. That is not going to happen as the Catholicos is supporting this and people will go. So what do we lose verses gain? Lostis the opportunity to state our position and use this as an OPPORTUNITY rather than use our hatred and frustration to guide us.
If we want to play victim constantly, then let’s forget our cause and spend our time only on being an outsider asking the world to remember us. Aworld that cares only if it is in their interests. We have a story to tell and we need to be there to tell it.
As Armenians, we always refer to Avarayr and Vartanantz as an inspiration for us today. I have always been inspired by the fact that the night before the events at Avarayr, the Armenians prayed to God and received Holy Communiion.
The Holy Cross church has been there since the 10th century. It has seen much since the Seljuks and has survived. It has been silent since the Genocide, standing proud but empty, almost as a metaphor of the genocide itself. For years, as I grew , I would see pictures of this church in many publications as an example of our revered culture…. and our lost homeland.
After all that , we now have an opportunity to pray at this church and to express our thoughts. Our response… because the Turks are calling the shots…forget it. We need to get past that and see the big picture. May God grant wisdom to our beloved Armenian people.
Hello,
Holy Cross Church in Akhtamar is most beatifull church in the world i think and needs your breaths only, if you dont go there, it becomes a museum but if you go there, it will be a church again. In Turkey something start to change, if you want evrything can change faster.
best wishes from istanbul
I have to support Stepan on this, although I have great empathy for those who struggle with the thought of Turks “granting” us the right to hold a Mass at Holy Cross Church for one day. Of course this isn’t fair or sufficient. And of course it is being done for Turkish public image. But should we not take advantage of this opportunity to claim our rightful place at Akhtamar? This serves more than a sentimental or romantic purpose for Armenians. As Stepan points out, it is an opportunity for us to advance our cause in the world press. If not the Armenians, than who? The old expression “cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face,” comes to mind.
When you read comments like that which was posted by Linda, who said, “Why boycott? It’s not right, Peace will not happen if people fight over every little thing. People should go and enjoy the event,” you realize that there is a lot of work to be done in educating people, in teaching them what it was that was done to our 1.5 million and to our property. How offensive that anyone should consider Aghtamar a “little thing.” How offensive that anyone would think that we go there simply to “enjoy the event.” How do we teach people like Linda that Aghtamar is a sacred and holy place, that it belongs to us, and that we go there not to “enjoy” ourselves, but to commune with the divine? Turkey’s actions have nothing to do with with the “peace” she references. Turkey is allowing us one day in our own church in order to tell the world that Turkey is so tolerant of infidel Christians that they allow Christian church service. Nothing will be said about it only being for one day. Turkey will tell the world that Armenians love Turkey so much that thousands go there as tourists. Nothing will be said about the Armenians only going there in order to pray in their own church for that one permitted day. Turkey will tell tell the world that they built 40 boats in order to take Armenians to the island. Nothing will be said about the exhorbitant fare they will charge, the cheap tourist gizzmos they will peddle enroute. Turkey will tell the world that Turks opened their doors to Armenians, gave them a place to sleep, fed them at their own tables. Nothing will be said about the money they will rake in for their “hospitality.” Will the huge photo of Ataturk hanging in our church be taken down for that one day? Will the Turkish flag stop waving on top of our church for that one day? Will Turkey restore the magnificent frescoes that were on the inner walls? Will the gold that belonged to the church be returned? What about our priceless Illuminated manuscripts? Will they be returned to us for that day?
This is a cheap marketing and public relations ploy by the Turks. It’s a way of telling the EU that they are civilized, westernized, and should be eligible for membership in the EU. If we go, they will tell the world that our presence indicates that we bear them no animosity whatsover, that we are willing to overlook the past. If we do not go, they will tell the world that we are petty ingrates; that Turkey, in her generosity and charity, has allowed us access to our church and we have refused to go.
Take your pick.
all the International media will be there,we Armenians should show the world that the church belongs to us by showing up,yes Turkey will use the situation,but it would not fool the world or the Armenians
To: Perouz
This is not a world peace negotation event, dont make it a big deal out it please. It’s a church event, let people come and pray and enjoy the event.
The world by now knows what’s going on between Armenia and Turkey, so Turkey is not going to change or influence anyone by having a small church event. So please stop with the paranoia, let’s not get Catee with every situation.
People just go and enjoy, Peace starts somewhere.
Isnt there always a tension between the commitment to move forwards – often in small steps – and the need to emphasize – and not forget – ultimate aims? You have to move forwards in small steps and through compromises. Even if the aim is to get the church back, why should the acceptance of one day of worship in a year not be seen as a step on the road to get the church back? And if the small steps undertaken by Turks never are acknowledged as such by Armenians, how will this affect the Turks who are in doubt? Will they not listen to the ones who say that one should never answer a single Armenian cliam?
well said Perouz (my grandmother’s name as well). Boycott, don’t play into their hands.
The well argued points Stephan raises are valid and worthy of serious consideration, but so is Alex’s cautious position calling for boycott. Whether or not Armenians choose to go to Holy Cross, we all need to understand that this is not an act of altruism on the part of Turkey. This is, of course, not a happy little social “event” that Turkey has dreamed up for Armenians to “enjoy,” nor is it the first step in acknowledgment and retribution. It is now clear to Turkey that the protocols are not going to work and they have to employ a different public relations strategy in order to appear worthy of EU membership. It’s an attempt to appear tolerant and westernized while continuing to pay out millions of dollars to suppress genocide acknowledgment. Our hearts tremble and yearn to kneel again in those places our murdered people worshiped in, but we must never let down our guard. Turkey still acts in the continued perpetration of genocide through its denial of almost 100 years. This “permission” to worship is open to suspicion in that it is only for one day and not a permanent return to us of at least that one small island and its church. The return of Holy Cross and the island would be an indication of the beginning of good will on the part of Turkey and would justify celebration and optimism. Instead, we are “given permission” to use a church that still belongs to us, for only one day. I am not aware of any promise that the huge photo of Ataturk will be removed for that day, or if we will have to bend our knees and sing our hymns before it. As well, the Turkish flag now flies on our cathedral. Will it be replaced with our crucifix?
Most pilgrims will understandably stay longer in order to seek out their villages, to return to the places their families were driven out of. Turkey will suceed in bringing in a lot of much needed tourist dollars. This money will all come from the descendants of those they pillaged, raped and brutally murdered.
Whether we choose to boycott or to return in prayerful contemplation to our blood-soaked island – and understandably, many of us will not be able to resist its call– let us all make the world aware of Turkey’s underlying motives.
Ragnar Naess, what do you mean by “you have to move forwards in small steps and through compromises.” Compromises?! You mean Armenians and the Turks were involved in some kind of interstate conflict or war and now Armenians are advised to “move forwards through compromises?” Three quarters of my nation and its historical homeland has been wiped out from the face of the earth, and you advise Armenians to “compromise”? That’s unheard of… As if there’s as much guilt on the part of the Armenians as it is on the part of the Turks. Turks’ crime was unilaterally directed against the Armenians whose innocent men, women, children, and elders posed no threat whatsoever to the Ottoman government and were exterminated as scapegoats, because of their national identity and religion and because of the sick pan-Turanic ambitions of the Turks. What is it there for the Armenians to compromise? Were there any instances of forced deportations of the Turks, mass killings, rapes, mutilation, starvation, and other ugliest forms of humiliation that Armenians have ever perpetrated in the centrally-organized manner against innocent Turks? Since we all know there were no such instances, what should Armenians compromise for?
Perouz — While I agree that the permission to have a Holy Cross mess is not an act of altruism on the part of the Turks, I disagree that Turks do so to “employ a different public relations strategy in order to appear worthy of EU membership.” I think it’s more of a show of “goodwill” in an attempt to suppress or hinder the widening wave of international recognition of the Armenian genocide, rather than anything related to Turkey’s worthiness of EU membership. Some time ago, the European leaders, Angela Merkel in particular, have made it clear to the Turks that they can forget about the EU membership as a dream. Allowing 73 mln Muslim Turks into Europe is suicidal and Europeans remember well what it means for them to have uncivilized Turks in Europe. As Victor Hugo put it, “Les Turcs ont passé a tout est ruine et deuil.” (The Turks have traversed there, all is ruin and mourning).
Perhaps, if Armenians had actually funded the restoration of Akhtamar, there would be more receptivity and more of a sense of ownership, and hence, more willingness to participate? Propaganda stunt or not, Turkey invested alot of money into the Akhtamar restoration…and considering the alternative – a crumbling ruin – saved it for the Armenian people. They didn’t have to do this at all. There are many beautiful, ancient, historic sites around Turkey that are in a completely ruined condition….Seljuk, Ottoman, etc. (plus many in Armenia itself). Yet, those were overlooked in favor of Akhtamar. Instead of seeing every action in a negative light, maybe for once we should try to appreciate the gesture and the result? Show some gratitude because they did not have to do this…they chose to do this. I have a feeling that is what the Vehapar has tried to convey.
Guys, Erdogan went before the world at the 44th Security Conference in Munich and boasted about renovating Akhtamar church. He made Armenians look bad and ungrateful. Please watch this video and think of the diasastrous consequences it will have for our image if Armenians go, give Turkey their tourist dollars, and give Erdogan another propaganda point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bFt3XY3SVY
We shoudl either:
1) go en masse and issue a protest after the church service (it’s great that you renovated this one church, what about the other 2499 Armenian churches which were located in Turkey before WWI), or
2) boycott, go to Etchmiadzin instead.
A few words of caution to the pilgrims who will be going, and one report stated that 5,000 are expected to go. I have been to Holy Cross several times; the last time was 2 years ago – of course this infidel could not worship there, only look. It is not a large church. I am guessing that it probably does not hold more than 150 people at a time. How many services are going to be held that day? Will everyone who goes actually be able to go inside while a service is being conducted? Or will you have to listen on speakers set up outside? Will there be some kind of seating accommodation for the elderly and infirm? Will there be electricity so that services can continue on into the night? And do not go thinking that Turkey has restored our church to its former glory. It has not. I did not see a baptismal font, and none of the interior wall painting has been restored. Of course, all the artifacts that today would be worth many millions of dollars are long gone.
It is the first church in the world that has reliefs of the Bible story covering its exterior. It is an undeniable indication of very early Armenian skill and artistry and Christian faith. It is studied in universities around the world. Research papers have been presented. Several books have been written about Holy Cross. To not do some semblance of restoration to such an important church would have been evidence of Turkey’s incivility. They were forced into minimal restoration by public opinion. If Turkey had wanted to give evidence of a change in attitude towards the Armenian Genocide, they would simply have relinquished their occupation of our island. We would have been happy to properly restore our church ourselves. We did not abandon Holy Cross. It is soaked in our blood.
It is a small island. There was no evidence of plumbing anywhere on the island 2 years ago. We paid to use a hole in the ground. Can we assume that the Turks have now corrected this? And just maybe, they will supply a little bit of paper?
Lake Van is a very salty lake and I am told that only one species of fish thrives in it. There is a small take-out restaurant on the shore where you catch the boat to go over, and they claim to serve only the fish from Lake Van. If there are indeed 5,000 people going, and if everyone is hoping to eat a Lake Van fish, be very wary. It is a small, oily, dark scaled, very bony fish. They serve it fried, with the head and tail still on it. Will the daily catch actually be 5,000 fish, or will some miracle of multiplication happen?
Yes, Zaven, the Turks are using us to employ a public relations strategy, for multiple reasons. And they want us to pick up the tab.
Small steps forward while keeping a long-range vision and commitment to the ultimate goal of the church being restored to the Armenians should not be mutually exclusive. Armenians must be in Akhtamar on September 19th to assert our rightful place. Not to show appreciation to the Turks or to help them in their public image campaign, but as a statement of acknowledgment of a small step toward a just resolution of the great crime against Armenians, the Genocide.
Karekin,
I have not doubt in your good intentions, but you need to be realistic and objective too. You state that Turkey invested “alot of money” in restoring the church. Have you considered the fact that the restoration amount does not even come close to the amount of money that Armenians lost to Turks in terms of land, bank accounts, personal properties, life insurances and so on. You also forget to mention that the Turkish government invested “alot of money” in Azerbaijan’s military hardware during Artsakh war. And then you mention to consider the alternative “crumbling ruin”. As far as I know the church was in a decent shape until it was sacked by your Turkish government. Another thing that is disturbing in your comment and I quote ” saved it for Armenian people”. You are trying to paint the Turkish authorities as “saviors”, going out of their way saving Armenian people, like a Superman descending from the sky to save the poor and weak Armenians. That happens only in comic books.
I respect your leftist ideology, but the facts on the ground are different. You can always live in a dream world where people coexist with brotherly love and mutual respect, but you have to choose carefully your dream characters.
Armenian commentators: Disregard Karekin, please, for your own tranquility. We came to know him well from other discussions. The guy clearly has unsubstantiated Turkophilic—and Turkophobic, at the same time—attitudes being a descendant of Bolsahays and having enjoyed Turkish flattery during his visits to Turkey. They guy also appears to suffer from a self-deprecation complex and genetic millet fear of the dominant nation. “Turkey saved Akhtamar for the Armenian people…” Laughed my a** off. Roughly 3000 churches and monasteries, scores of educational centers, libraries, cross-stones khachkars, beautiful houses, towns, villages, and pastures have been destroyed, detonated, transformed into mosques and sheepfolds, and Armenian people were slaughtered in millions in cold blood, and here’s a guy who dares to write that “Turkey saved Akhtamar for the Armenian people…” Jesus Christ!
During the ceremony at Aghtamar, will there be a big picture of Ataturk next to that of Jesus Christ?
I wonder, Carmen… All the Turkish state is capable of is trickery, slyness, deceipt, and, of course, mass murder. I won’t be surprised if they place freemason Mustafa Kemal’s picture next to the world’s Savior Jesus Christ at Akhtamar.
If some Armenians are so intent on praying in an Armenian church in Turkey, Aghtamar is not the only way to do it, so why give the Turks a public relations victory?
You see, Armenian churches are open in Bolis. An Armenian American or Hayastantsi can go there to pray. There are also some run-down churches in Western Armenia (eastern Turkey).
You can go there if praying in an Armenian church in that region is so important to you. You don’t even need a priest. Just go and pray.
I think the Armenians who are going to Aghtamar for this “special” event are not sincere about praying in an Armenian church at all. They just don’t care if they hand the Turks a propanganda victory.
If these Armenians were truly sincere, they would say this: “I can go to Armenian churches in Turkey anytime to pray on my own, but I won’t go to Aghtamar and make the Turks look like humanitarians.”
In other words, the Armenians who are going to Aghtamar are dancing to the tune of Turkey.
Also, do you think that our martyrs in heaven would be happy that the photo of their biggest murderer in the post-1918 era, Ataturk, will be prominently on display?
Armenians, go pray somewhere else. I will be praying that you don’t go.
Look, what you are all forgetting is that on some very deep level, this is not an easy propaganda moment for Turkey….in fact, it is a huge embarrassment that they have to overcome. Akhtamar symbolizes the genius of medieval Armenian civilization…it is a sign that Armenians have been there since time immemorial, and that this is the Armenian plateau – devoid of Armenians since the genocide. And, it will be on view for all the world to see. However, if nothing else, restoring Akhtamar is an acknowledgement of those facts of history! It also shows – very clearly – who designed and built all those ‘Seljuk’ monuments across Anatolia – clearly, not Turks. Of course, these things could have happened anytime during the last 90 years, but didn’t…because the Ataturkist military wouldn’t allow it. In fact, they would prefer to see places like Akhtamar crumble into dust and for Armenians to disappear completely. If you can overcome your views and your anger, this is a sign that things are changing in Turkey, not quickly and not easily, but positively – whether those in the diaspora want to acknowledge it or not. Simon is right…there are plenty of Armenian churches in Turkey. Their doors are open every day of the week, at last count, 30 in Istanbul alone….if someone really wants to pray….more than any city in the world. A bit odd, don’t you think? Perhaps the next step might be an apology….? Gamatz, gamatz people….Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Dear Karekin;
The world and the world media already know that there are Armenian churches in Turkey. The way that countries like the US and the media will SPIN the Aghtamar event will be:
1. Turkey is generous.
2. Turkey has changed.
3. Erdogan is a hero.
4. Armenia has not reciprocated.
5. Both countries have not ratified the protocols (omitting the specious Turkish precondition on Karabagh), as if both are to blame.
6. There is a slow rapproachment between Armenia and Turkey. Don’t disturb it with genocide resolutions.
7. Turks are willing to put history aside, but Armenians are narrow-minded and are not.
As one piece of evidence, consider that you hear almost nothing ever of the 2999 other Armenian churches in “Turkey” that are destroyed or wasting away. Aghtamar won’t change that.
You also never hear anything about the Armenian khachkars in Nakhichevan that Azerbaijan destroyed. This mass to be held at Aghtamar is getting more attention than either of the aforementioned issues. You want to publicize Armenian churches, go to Turkey and come back and write an article about their destruction and get it into American papers.
Armenians going to this Aghtamar event is a public relations victory for Turkey. Afterward, Armenians will go home and nothing will have changed except that Turks will be exultant.
And since when did Armenian churches constitute the totality of Armenian identity?
While I otherwise loathe the man and his regime, this is the only instance when I’d support Serge Sarkisian. Armenians should not go to Akhtamar to assist the Turks in the show they staged to mislead the international community. Simon is absolutely right: you want to go our ancestral lands in Western Armenia and pray in those few remaining crumbled churches, go by your own but not as part of a masquerade that’d make the Turks exultant. Go to Akhtamar, too, if you wish, but not on the day that the Turks have assigned doing the church’s and land’s rightful owners: the Armenians, a favor to have a mass for one day. It’s a humiliation and I’m astonished at those who fall for this cheap Turkish trick. Aren’t the Armenians supposed to know the sly Turks better than anyone else in the world?
Simon… sounds like you have given up, accepted our victim fate and feel like all is lost.
How about this as a spin:
1. Aghtamar shows the historic Armenian presence in Anatolia.
2. Why has this church been closed?
3. What happened to the Christians who lived here?
4. Why was it only recently “renovated” and a museum?
5. Why is it not under the Patriachate?
6. Why is the border closed to the pilgrims of this and other sites?
One of the effects of our recent history, is that all we see is darkness where there is light. Have faith Simon. Armenians have not survived on pessimism!!
Simon says: “Armenians have not survived on pessimism!!” How about those millions of Armenians who, full of optimism, followed the Ottoman government’s promise to move them far from the war frontlines into their “new homes” in Mosul and elsewhere, eventually ending in the sunny Syrian deserts and dieing of starvation? Hey, these are Turks and this says it all. The only language they’d recognize is the language of pressure. This has nothing to do with a “half empty-half full” vision of life.
Hye, why Holy Cross of Aghtamar? For the Turks to advance tourism to a Turk museum – too, to continue to toss ‘crumbs’ to the ‘accepting’ Armenians… IN YOUR FACE to Armenians!! The world’s religions shall know reasons why Armenians could not accept the ONE DAY ‘granted’ by Turks – without the Armenian cross atop – September 19th… Armenian services in a Turkish museum… why?
Why not the crumbling Armenian church in Dikranagerd… I have VHS of the visit of our Archbishop Mesrob Ashjian, of blessed memory, together with Armenians who were visiting the villages of their family origins. The church there too, barely with a roof atop, stands yet, crumbling, but here they sang together in memory of those lost to our nation… together with the birds who had built their nests amongst the ruins.. Aghtamar will draw tourists for a Turkey – and of course, the Turks expect Armenians will ‘accept’ another crumb, again – ONE DAY ONLY… again.
P.S. With the Turkish Genocide of the Kurds – Turks will seek to rebuild many more Armenian churches, including in Dikranagerd… tourism for Turkish museums?? The goal of the Turks ongoing – all Armenian culture deleted – stolen by Turks! Manooshag
to Manooshag: Excellent suggestion. The church at Dikranagerd is a perfect place for holy service. If your family came from Alipiran, Tchuruk, Toklan, Oughnut, Goynoug, Daron’s Dzayratatav or the small villages of Kghi, and did not survive, I have primary source documentation that says the caravans all ended at Dikranagerd. Any survivors at that point, were murdered and their bodies thrown off the bridge at Dikranagerd. That bridge is lso a holy place for us.
You are also right about the Turkish goal of turning our churches into Turkish museums. Stick up a huge blow – up of Ataturk and wave the Turk flag on top of one of our churches, and there, it becomes a Turkish museum. Now send out the travel brochures to see “beautiful Turkey and her magnificent museums.”
HYe, actually, Holy Cross Church at Aghtamar is another prime example of the Turkish policy of diverting any and all of the Armenian cultures, converting churches to stables, and using our religious sites for whatever the Turks shall have needed – removing any identifying emblems, anything, to steal the origins of the Armenians, too, that all traces of the Armenian culture shall be as if these were originated by Turks – attempting to erase the existence of the ancient Armenian nation. Today Holy Cross Church at Aghtamar – an ancient edifice, which existed before the Turkish hordes came down from the Asian mountains – today a Turkish museum – Manooshag
Can we really trust Turkey’s goodwill intention toward Armenians???Are they really sincere to acknowledge a Genocide?? or they are playing same old song, for EU leaders, how sensitive they are with their “beloved” minorities..only future will tell Armenians the “true” intention of Akhtamar Church opening..but for now we Armenians we should listen to our heart…the only thing that I don’t like is about “money” that we are going to pure into local hotel owners pocket, where our Armenian sisters and brothers needs the most in Armenia…I wonder if local hotel owners can be able to show restricted city of 1001 Churches to bunch of foreign tourists for few extra lira…and I wonder if Turks are clever enough to renovate Ani’s cathedral Church in the future economy boom, for the sake of impoverished Eastern Velayats..
City of Ani: City of 1001 Churches
Hye, September 20th… yesterday, having attended the Armenian religious rites at Holy Cross Church of Aghtamar…still a Turkish museum – built before the Turk hordes descended upon Armenia
This ONE DAY is another of the Turks IN YOUR FACE, ARMENIANS… still a continuation of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation from 1890s – 2010… ongoing. Manooshag
Hye, Too, is not the efforts of the muslims in New York City attempting to build a mosque, near to the September 11th site (almost September 19th) another IN YOUR FACE, CHRISTIANS similar to and I liken this to all the IN YOUR FACE ARMENIAN CHRISTIANS acts? Turks actions against the victims of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation. (1890s-2010 ongoing still). Seems Turks are leading the parade for the return of the muslim Ottoman empire to the world. Manooshag
Sadly, much of what is said here is really about the unpleasant historical fact that Armenians lost Armenia….and not just in 1915. Yes, we’re pissed off that we lost. Now, get over it. We all know who has ruled Armenia since ancient times, and most often, it was not Armenians. Any number of empires, Arab, Persian, Greek, Roman, Russian, Seljuk and Ottoman subjugated Armenia during the last 3000 years. And while Armenians clung to the land during all of those years, it took a very small group of murderous thugs from the CUP to issue the final blow in order to steal what was left, and ceremoniously, hand it over to ‘Turks’. As a result, we blame ‘the Turks’, plus we do not control Turkey or Anatolia – they do. What’s left of Armenian civilization is at their mercy….for that reason, try to suck it up in order to preserve what’s left, if you really care about it on any level. Why would you actively push to antagonize those who are in charge of your prized possessions? If anything, try to befriend them, harkell them. As they say, you catch more flies w/ honey than w/ vinegar, and I’m seeing alot of vinegar here. At the same time, if you truly think ‘the Turks’ would have actually killed the goose that laid golden eggs for them for a thousand years, there is a good chance you are delusional! Does that make any sense whatsoever? Put your anger aside and read history, moreover, read between the lines, connect the dots, whether they are obvious or not. As if a farmer would kill his prize bull because he’s angry at the bull? Come on. Only a competitor would do that to him….but he would not do it himself. The failing Ottoman Empire was a cauldron of competing forces…with alot of intrigue and sinister action behind the scenes. As of the Young Turk revolution, the sultan was no longer in control, and the largely non-Turkish CUP was. Armenians had something they really wanted very much…the land. But they successfully manipulated the masses to work on their behalf…even if it was to the detriment of the entire country…think divide and conquer….and as a result, Armenians paid the price in a very big way. Today, there is a tectonic shift in power going on within Turkey….the old, established forces of the CUP crowd are being challenged….and if nothing else, we should applaud those efforts, especially if the result is a restored Akhtamar. When all of you decide to move back to the shores of Lake Van, then you can support the church and keep it alive. In the meantime, let’s all do things that will preserve and protect Armenian heritage and civilization in Turkey, not destroy it.
To self-deprecating individuals posting in these pages:
“Yes, we’re pissed off that we lost. Now, get over it’ and “Why would you actively push to antagonize those who are in charge of your prized possessions? If anything, try to befriend them, respect them.”
Let the perpetrator state apologize to us for committing genocide and we’ll get over it. Let them show true repentance and remorse, and we’ll respect them.
“We all know who has ruled Armenia since ancient times, and most often, it was not Armenians.” I challenge anyone to show me any historical evidence when Armenia was most often ruled by non-Armenians. Up until the 15th century Armenia was either autonomous or semi-autonomous entity or existed in the form of autonomous or semi-autonomous principalities. Armenia’s history is no different from that of many other nations especially during the feudal and medieval centuries. Doesn’t a person who’s belittling its own nation’s history know that during those centuries very few unified state formations and very many isolated principalities existed? A simple glance at Italy during the medieval centuries is just one evidence of that.
“Any number of empires, Arab, Persian, Greek, Roman, Russian, Seljuk and Ottoman subjugated Armenia during the last 3000 years.” Where did this bull**** come from? Hundreds of nations subjugated hundreds of other nations, but even during those years or centuries Armenia remained either an autonomous, or client, or buffer state, for instance between Persians and Romans, Greeks and Persians, or in the form of principalities, in order to preserve its sovereignty to the optimal extent. If subjugation is used only in the case of Armenia, why for the sake of historical objectivity is it not used to emphasize that Armenians in several historical instances subjugated other nations, too: Safavid Persians, the Hittites, Iberians, etc.?
And what are we to conclude from the statements above? That if Armenians, just like other nations, were subjugated by a number of empires, we should shut the h*** up and continue to live with a victim complex and millet mentality? Or a self-respecting nation should strive to re-unite, make itself stronger, achieve justice for its martyrs?
As for “a very small group of murderous thugs from the CUP who stole the Armenian land and handed it over to ‘Turks’,” in these pages it’s been repeated, literally, hundreds of times: CUP represented the official Ottoman Turkish government that gave orders at annihilation of Armenians. Whether it was a small or a large group is irrelevant. Whether they were crypto-Jews or Australian aborigines is irrelevant. Whether the prevailing majority of central and local administrations, the valis, village heads, gendarmes, army soldiers, the chettes, and ordinary citizens involved in murders and stealing were Turks (as they, in fact, were) or tribesmen from Papua New Guinea is irrelevant. The crime of genocide against the Armenians was perpetrated during the rule of CUP as central government of Ottoman Turkey; with CUP members representing the government that gave orders at mass extermination; and with millions of ethnic Turks at various levels involved in the campaign of mass slaughter, mutilation, rape, forced expulsions, death marches, and starvation of the innocent Armenian men, women, children, and the elderly. The beneficiary state, i.e. the denialist Republic of Turkey, must admit the guilt and apologize fro committing the genocide of Armenians. PERIOD. If they don’t, our concentrated efforts at restoring justice by means of international recognition of genocide will never cease.
“As if a farmer would kill his prize bull because he’s angry at the bull? Only a competitor would do that to him….but he would not do it himself.” From the history of the Ottoman empire the Turks are known to be intolerant and repressive towards ethnic and religious minorities. The genocide was not an isolated fact but a culmination of their pan-Turkic policy at homogenization of their empire. Those who call on us to read history, don’t they know that throughout the centuries, Armenians were subject to maraudering and plunder by the bands of Turks, Kurds, and Circassians, to discriminatory treatment as millet, to earlier massacres by Abdul Hamid? 1915 was just used in the context of the world’s preoccupation by war to find a final solution to the Armenian question, again, it was a culmination of a long-time discriminatory policy not an isolated instance of “anger.”
Finally, just how one can be so cock-assured that restoration of Akhtamar is the sign of a tectonic shift in power going on within Turkey and not an old sly Turkish tactics at portraying to the world what tolerant, compassionate, neighbor-loving nation they actually are? How can one be so sure if just some time ago the same Turks could deport those who speak the truth about the Armenian genocide, murder Hrant Dink, his lawyer, Christian priests, threaten to deport the remaining Armenians in Constantinople? Repentance needs to come by means of substantial statements or acts, not a masquerade aimed at mollifying the Europeans.
As for “preserving and protecting Armenian heritage and civilization in Turkey,” first of all Armenian heritage and civilization existed for almost 4000 years, i.e. long before there appeared a toponym such as “Turkey” and to put our heritage and civilization in the context of Turkey is another insult to us. Let Armenian heritage and civilization be given back to their rightful owners and we’ll make sure they’re indeed protected not destroyed or transformed to mosques and sheepfolds as in Turkey. That’d be more logical and more appropriate.
paul – I never used the word compromise. As far as I ubnderstand one of the goals of -Armenians is to restore and get back as many Armenian historical sites in Turkey as possible. And when the church is restored and a religious ceremony is performed fo rthe first times for more than 90 years this is a small step in the right direction. Let us hope for more
RN: “I never used the word compromise.” See: August 15, 2010 by Ragnar Naess: “You have to move forwards in small steps and through compromises.”
One of the goals of Armenians is not to (1)restore and (2)get back as many Armenian historical sites in Turkey as possible. One of the goals of Armenians is to (1)get back as many Armenian historical sites in Turkey as possible and (2)restore them by ourselves as rightful owners. Many of us disagree that “when the church is restored and a religious ceremony is performed for the first times for more than 90 years this is a small step in the right direction.” Many of us think that it’s being done for propaganda purposes only, showing off Turkey’s “tolerance” towards her religious minorities, to gain profit for tourism knowing that thousands of Armenian might attend, and to eventually become exultant in the eyes of the European and broadly Westerners in “pioneering” tolerant religious policy. We know the Turks better than you. In reality, nothing substantial has been done on the part of the Turkish government to shoe repentance and remorse for committing the genocide of the Armenians. Masquerade with a one-day mass is ridiculous and, in my view, needs not to be attended. Armenians can always travel to Western Armenia and pray our Lord Jesus but not on the day “designated” by the Turks, It’s humiliating for many of us…
sorry Paul, you are right
what I meant was that you will compromise in the sense that obtaining one day for worship in the church is much less than what you aim at, but this can be done without compromising on the final goal, as long as it is a step in the right direction. However, if you imagine that you can obtaining a difficult goal in a political and societal matter in one jump – instantaneously – and you refuse to undertake any steps that do not imply reaching the full goal, you are are at loggerheads with most human experience.
To my mind it is paradoxical not to recognise that Turkey is moving in the right direction. The first conference in Turkey in 1990 with an Armenian genocide scholar (Marashlian), Akcam’s book of 1994, never banned in Turkey, the establishment of “Agos”, the opening of many archives in which Akcam finds materials and areguments for his thesis, the hundred thousands who went to the streets after the murder of Hrant Dink, the apology movement, the decision to restore the Akhtmar church, the insistence first that it should not have a cross and only being a museum, the new decision that it will have a cross after all, and that there will be a religious ceremony at all, the foreign minister’s intervention on behalf of Orhan Pamuk when he was indicted, does not all this testify to a development? It may be uneven and occasionally backtrack, but are assertions that NOTHING SUBSTANTIALLY is happening reasonable? You might say that as long as there is no recognition of the genocide nothing substantially is happening,but isnt there always a process leading up to such admissions? Is it not possible to identify prerequisites that exist today that makes a positive development more likely than 25 years ago?
To: Ragnar Naess
Many Armenians don’t feel that one day of worship in an 10th-century Armenian church when the toponym “Turkey“ or “Turks” was non-existent, is “a step in the right direction,” because what the world sees beyond the masquerade on Akhtamar island is nothing that’d indicate the genuine willingness of the Turks to repent and offer the Armenians an apology for wiping out one of the most ancient civilizations inhabiting the earth. Nothing substantial, indeed: no ease at opening the border; no step towards establishing diplomatic relations; no step towards facilitating border trade; no indication of detaching the issue of bilateral relations from an issue that has no relation whatsoever with Turkish-Armenian relations (read: Artsakh); no sign of tolerance towards people expressing different opinions about extermination of Assyrians, Greeks, and Armenians; no suspension of the denialist policy on the issue of Armenian genocide; no retreat from bullying foreign governments for the recognition of the Armenian genocide. Many Armenians simply don’t buy such cheap “steps in the right direction.” I don’t think I’d imagine achieving “a difficult goal in a political and societal matter in one jump, instantaneously,” but a question arises in this regard: why was it possible to mass slaughter 1.5 millions of innocent Armenians and forcibly deport hundreds of thousands of others “in one jump, instantaneously”? Then in the same or similar speed the guilt for the crime would need to be admitted or at least gradual substantial steps need to be made towards the repentance or, as a first step, normalization of bilateral relations.
Conversely, to my mind it is paradoxical not to recognize that Turkey is not moving in the right direction. Akcam was deported from the country for his acknowledgement of Armenian genocide and oppression of the Kurds; “Agos’” publisher was shot in the daylight in downtown Constantinople for calls to acknowledge the genocide of the Armenians; his lawyer was recently murdered that’d effectively close the case; Turkish archives opened only when the government made sure that all genocidal intent-containing documents were destroyed; the hundred thousands who went to the streets after the murder of Dink were expressing their personal sorrow, but in no way was it a government-backed or government-driven action and you’d never know the true identity of many of demonstrators; the apology movement gathered only 30,000 signatures in a country of 73 mln and among other goals pursued the goal of hindering the wave of international recognition of the Armenian genocide, as some initiators of the movement revealed; the decision to restore the Akhtamar church most probably pursues propagandistic and image-building purposes and is believed not to be truly reconciliation-motivated; Nobel Prize winner Pamuk has been indicted on the grounds of discriminatory Article 301 of the Penal Code and only after the pressure from the international community, human rights groups, and world-renowned scholars he was deported instead of being imprisoned, which is still a disgrace; Turkish government obstructed the protocol process on establishment of bilateral relation by tying it up with the unrelated Karabakh issue; Turkish prime-minister continuously makes racist, xenophobic statements, the most outrageous of which was a possibility of deportation of Turkey’s remaining Armenians; Turkish government continues to fund heavily the lobbying groups all over the world to hinder the process of recognition of the Armenian genocide; and much more.
I wouldn’t want to say that “as long as there is no recognition of the genocide nothing substantial is happening”, but clearly nothing substantial is happening that’d give us an indication that there’ s a process leading up to the admission of guilt. None of the substantial steps I offered above is happening and Turks seem to know the Armenians worse than Armenians know the Turks. We wouldn’t’ take such crumbs. If not instantaneous recognition, which I agree is not happening overnight, something more substantial from the list of measures above needs to be done. Until then, we will continue pushing for the international recognition of the genocide and international lawsuits against the criminal Turkish state.
Karekin, you wrongly characterize Armenian history in your descriptions of our many decades and centuries under the banner of ever changing empires. MJM explains why you are wrong very well. I won’t repeat except to say that it is a testament of national strength that we survived as a people with distinct language, culture and religion despite the constant political upheaval that washed over the highlands. To my mind, it is a fact that suggests an even stronger motivation to fight for what was lost during 1915-23, rather than to passively accept the consequences of the great crime of genocide committed against us. We are accustomed as a people to defy the odds of assimilation and to remain true to our heritage. To abandon it simply because we were savagely decimated to satisfy the goals of pan-turanic fanatics seems uniquely un-Armenian.
Since this discussion is focused on churches and historical sites, let’s look at history, a bit. From the arrival of the Seljuks in Anatolia until 1915…a period of approximately 1000 years, a huge number of churches, vanks and other religious sites were built…probably too many to count. During that period, some of them were even funded by sultans bringing buckets of gold to Armenian communities so a church could be built. (this is not hearsay, but documented fact). Some historians have suggested a number of around 3000 Armenian historic/religioius sites in Turkey pre-1915. The hard number doesn’t matter…what does matter is that almost all of these monuments were built while Armenians were living completely under Turkish rule…that’s right… under the Turkish heel….Armenians and others were completely subjugated to Turkish sultans, a Turkish military and a Turkish legal and religious system. Oddly, they had quite a building spree and virtually every prominent architect in Turkey was Armenian, including Sinan and the Balyans. So, what happened as of 1922? Once the republic came into existence, not one new church or religious structure has been built by Armenians in Turkey. Kind of odd, don’t you think? So, if what you’re telling us is true mjm, the very same Turks who ruled a massive and powerful multicontinental, multi-religious and multicultural empire – and not only allowed but also helped to fund many Armenian religious monuments – all of a sudden decided on their own, not only to eliminate the Armenians, but to also eliminate their own religion (by dissolving the caliphate), close mosques, fire imams, erase historical memory by dropping the use of Arabic script, force people to accept new (if, false and fabricated) family names, make traditional dress illegal in certain quarters, etc. etc. etc. Now, if you actually believe that any people on earth would voluntarily gut their own culture to that degree, then you must also believe in the Easter bunny and Santa Claus. No people commits cultural suicide by choice, though sometimes it is forced on them, such as the native Americans. Personally, I see the latest developments in Turkey as a dramatic break between the new and the old, where the old had clear ties to those who masterminded the genocide. Hopefully, their clout is waning and will disappear over time. So again, if this is the new dynamic in Turkey, we should be positioned to work with it, not against it. Let’s not forget, at least 100,000 Armenians and an untold number of hidden Armenians still live there…and they should not be sacrificed on the altar of diasporan anger and vengeance.
Could someone succinctly explain what we gain by boycotting the Mass at Akhtamar? Also, what do we lose by attending?
To me it seems that the Turks will end up winning whether or not we attend, depending on how they spin it. And we know they are spin-masters. This is our church and we should be present to give our “spin” on the event. The real spin, the truth about who built the church and its many destroyed counterparts, as well as what happened to its worshippers.
I’m at odds with the idea of attending the event on Akhtamar. Boyajian, true, the Turks will “end up winning whether or not we attend, depending on how they spin it.” If so, then why not attend Akhtamar and the remnants of our other churches not on a day designated by the Turks, but on any other day and in any other church? Essentially, I have hard time understanding as to why Armenians can’t visit and pray in our other churches, but tend to fall into this Turkish trickery on Akhtamar? It is clear that the Turks will use the event to their advantage. Why give it to them? I also fail to see as to how technically Armenians would show to the world “the truth about who built the church and its many destroyed counterparts, as well as what happened to its worshippers.” How? By holding signs? Or chanting “Armenians built this church!” and “What happened to its worshippers?” Our physical presence is just not enough, because I’d predict that the world press will not focus on the fact that Armenians built the church or especially what happened to its worshippers. They world media outlets would almost certainly focus on how Turkey develops “religious tolerance,” see: first at a Greek church, now at an Armenian church, tomorrow at an Assyrian church, if any is left intact. In this case I don’t really care how the Turks would spin the event, I could care less about these sly creatures, but the world media will almost certainly portray it with little or no coverage of history or the genocide as a result of which the church stood idle for 95 years. This is my major concern. Hope this answers your question.
Karekin… when will you learn? Or is this part of an ancient tradition of self-abuse?
“…To me it seems that the Turks will end up winning whether or not we attend, depending on how they spin it. ”
Yes, this is a soccer game, all about winning and losing… why not get behind something constructive for a change? Be the first grandchild of Tehcir to request residency from the Turkish government and be the first one in a century to settle along the shores of Lake Van. Demand, as a local Christian citizen, your own Church for example… just an idea.
Karekin, you’re fundamentally wrong, and I’d gladly prove you wrong because, as boyajian rightly put it, “to abandon [defying the odds of assimilation and remaining true to our heritage] simply because we were decimated to satisfy the goals of pan-Turanic fanatics seems uniquely un-Armenian.” Uniquely, indeed, since defeatist and obsequious views are so atypical to the Armenians, whether Diasporan or of the Republic of Armenia’s or especially the Armenians of Artsakh.
OK, let’s look at history, a bit. “What does matter is that almost all of these monuments [churches, monasteries, and other religious sites] were built while Armenians were living completely under Turkish rule. Dead wrong, and here are the facts about some of the major churches:
Sebastia (Sivas) province, the Surp Nishan (Holy Sign) Church was built when King Senekerim-Hovhannes Artsruni ceded the independent Armenian kingdom of Vaspurakan to the Byzantine Empire in the 10th century AD.
Kayseri province, Church of the Panaghia at Tomarza. The church is probably dated from the late 5th century or early 6th century AD.
Bayburt, the Varzahan Churches, in the 12th century aftermath of the Seljuk invasions the town of Bayburt had an Armenian mayor and the majority Christian Armenian population still held a degree of autonomy and political power, circumstances that would have been necessary for the construction of the Varzahan churches.
Moush province, the Holy Apostles Monastery (Surp Arakelots Vank) According to local tradition, Arakelots monastery was founded in the 4th century by Saint Gregory the Illuminator. However, it is likely that Arakelots, as a monastery, was a mid-10th century foundation built during the renewed rule of the independent Mamikonian dynasty in the post-Byzantine period.
Bitlis province, the Monastery of the Miracles (Skantselagorgivank) or the Monastery of Ardzgue is perhaps a continuity from an Urartian religious site. The earliest known mention of this monastery is from the second quarter of the 8th century during the reign of a local independent Armenian ruler Vahan of Goghthen.
Van province, the Monastery of Saint George of Goms (Surb Gomki Georgi Vank) built just after the conquest of this district by Gagik Artsruni, the king of Vaspurakan, in 905AD.
Kars province, the Cathedral of Mren, probably built in by independent Sparapet Davit Saharuni of Armenia somewhere between 638 until 641AD.
Kars province, the Gmbet Church (Kümbet Kilise), built circa 7th century AD.
Van province, The Church of the Holy Cross, built on Aghtamar Island in Lake Van between the years 915 and 921AD by independent Armenian King Gagik Artzruni.
I’ll continue the list at a later time, as well as denounce some of your unsubstantiated statements on other matters.
This debate about Akhtamar is fascinating. The good news is that we are discussing a contemporary issues about something in western Armenia, but I think we are missing the main point. Our ancestors were guided by their faith. Those are the peole that buillt Holy Cross. Today everything we say has a political or secular flair. When appropriate I agree, but this is a church that has not said our mass of praise to our Lord in 90 years.
Can’t we put our anger(which is justifiably ample) aside for a moment and pray in humility to God. Can’t that simply be it for once. Must it always be about who wins with the Turks or what the motivation is? I ask, where has our true faith gone?
Stepan, I appreciate your call to remember our faith and the true purpose of the church on Akhtamar. Putting political positioning aside, how could any Armenian resist the thought of Badarak finally being held there after so many years? Broskhoomeh!
I also hear the anguish of those like mjm who can’t stomach the thought of accepting this dubious gift from the Turks who only under pressure finally agreed to allow a cross to be mounted on the church they wish to feature as a museum and testimony to “Turkish religious tolerance.” It makes me want to vomit. Those in attendance should tear down any display of Ataturk’s likeness in or near the church.
But then I say, how could we not be there? We are not guests at Holy Cross, but its caretakers, protectors and defenders. We may not be able to see how this event will play out in the long drama that is the Armenian story, but we need to at least honor the the faith of our forefathers. They built this church as an expression of this faith and as a direct outgrowth of Armenian tenacity and creativity. This is time to behave as the people of a 4000 year history, 1700 year old national religion and survivors of a brutal Genocide which we suffered because of who we were. We should not let that powerful truth be silenced by pragmatic pessimism.
We should go because we are the body which Holy Cross represents. And we should go to the other churches in Turkey as well. Everywhere, everyday, amenayn jahm, Amen, Alleluia.
Look folks, political considerations aside, this is an opportunity to showcase Armenian culture, civilization and architectural genius. Why on earth would we boycott that? Boycotting it just looks like a juvenile stunt. Akhtamar is rightfully Armenian and yes, to show up is to re-stake our claim to it. Throwing a tantrum isn’t very productive, here and not very adult or sophisticated. So, I agree w/ Boyajian…what do we gain by boycotting, what do we lose by attending and celebrating our own culture? Yes, it’s under Turkish rule now, but at least it’s still there. So yes, Turkey restored Akhtamar on its own dime, but let’s not forget, Armenia didn’t restore the Blue Mosque – Iran did. Time to start practicing the golden rule folks, esp. if you want people to think you’re such good Christians. This is a good time to start.
Karekin, you’re repeatedly wrong. I worked in Yerevan when the decision for restoration of the Blue Mosques was made. The government of Armenia, by itself has issued a decree at restoration and Armenian craftsmen were supposed to restore it according to it. At the behest of the Iranian government, those craftsmen were replaced by the Iranian specialists who knew the mosque restoration techniques better than the Armenians. Had there not been the decision and willingness of Armenia to restore the mosque no Iran could even approach it. Get this once and for all and please refrain from repeating bull*** over and over again. By the way, since you’re not only Armenophobic but also a blasphemous person (many of us remember how low you could descend as to call our Lord and Savior “a carpenter from Nazareth with his magic tricks”), keep in mind that being good Christians doesn’t necessarily presuppose going to a church or attending a mass. Nowhere in the Biblewould you find anything that urges you to do so when communicating with God your Lord. On the contrary, Jesus teaches us to pray alone and quietly, not demonstratively as Pharisees and fake-believers do. So the least teaching as to whether or not we are “such good Christians” I’d expect from an unbeliever and heretic like you. And if again you dare to touch upon anything related to our faith, I won’t make any effort to choose courteous words as I do now…
Murat, believe me it’s much self-glorifying to be an ancient nation with traditions to understand that the world, human relations, and man’s system of values is much deeper than superficial “soccer game” or “all about winning and losing” that newly-emerged pimps on the face of the earth are propagating here…
I continue my previous post, Karekin.
“Armenians and others were completely subjugated to Turkish sultans, a Turkish military and a Turkish legal and religious system. Oddly, they had quite a building spree and virtually every prominent architect in Turkey was Armenian, including Sinan and the Balyans.” I don’t quite understand, you take pride of the fact that ancient nations like Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians were “subjugated to Turkish sultans, a Turkish military and a Turkish legal and religious system”? Nations that developed high civilizations throughout millennia, the mentions of whom are found in virtually every historical account of the ancient world have been subjugated by savages descending from the Altay Mountains and Mongolian steppes; highly-developed civilizations were colonized by brutal, uncivilized, intolerant House of Osman, does this make you happy?!
That Armenians “had quite a building spree and virtually every prominent architect in Turkey was Armenian” was not a merit of the Turkish sultans, but demonstration of natural wit and talent of the Armenians. As such, there’s nothing “odd” in this. Had your Turkish sultans, the military, and legal and religious workers been capable of creating such architectural marbles, might you know as to why the Turks wouldn’t create them by themselves?
Further, “So, what happened as of 1922? Once the republic came into existence, not one new church or religious structure has been built by Armenians in Turkey. Kind of odd, don’t you think?” How could a new church or a religious structure be built by Armenians as of 1922, if virtually all Armenians were slaughtered by your beloved “civilized” Turks or forcibly deported by then? Are you out of your mind?
Further, history knows many instances when “people on earth would voluntarily gut their own culture” to the desastrous degree. Many revolutions or societal transformations led to gutting the cultures of the nations much more developed then the Turks. French and Russian revolutions instantaneously come to mind. French went so low as to change the names of the months in the calendar, propagate atheism, decapitate the brightest representatives of intelligentsia, denigrate scholars and scientists and, conversely, praise and glorify what-not commoners and provincials, destroy architectural marbles, steal and loot the heritage of the royal families. Russians peasants and Bolsheviks did roughly the same: churches and monasteries were destroyed en masse, dozens of millions of people, mostly intelligentsia, killed or let die at Gulags, millions of others—bright, noble, and brave—fled, their property confiscated, monuments constructed during the czars’ regimes decimated, faith declared illegal, historical memory erased or adjusted to the new Socialist demands, etc. etc. etc. I hereby denounce your weird point that “no people commit cultural suicide by choice.” Yes they do, and CUP did exactly this with only difference being that CUP’s cultural suicide was targeted at homogenization of their state by committing genocides of more ancient, indigenous peoples inhabiting the lands long before the arrival of the Turks.
Lastly, “let’s not forget, at least 100,000 Armenians and an untold number of hidden Armenians still live there…and they should not be sacrificed on the altar of diasporan anger and vengeance.” First of all, how dare you to disobey schizophrenic prime-minister Erdogan, who declared that only 60,000 not 100,000 Armenians live in Turkey, and threatened to deport them? Why aren’t you worried about this explicit threat made by the head of the government, but appear to react harshly to the “diasporan anger and vengeance”? Why aren’t you so equally sensitive towards the pogroms of Armenians in 1955 in Constantinople when there was virtually no explicit “diasporan anger and vengeance”? Why not about Hrant Dink murdered in cold blood in the center of Constantinople? After all, it’s not just diasporan anger, it’s an all-Armenian anger, and its’ not a vengeance per se, it’s a demand for the restoration of justice for Armenians.
Armenians already lost everything in their homeland: 2-2.5 millions of their countrymen, two-thirds of Greater Armenia, thousands of churches and monasteries, homes, pastures, educational centers, libraries. Worry about that! Constantinople Armenians are a just part and consequence of that greater tragedy.
After reading so many hateful, barbed comments, I’m afraid mjm does not know the meaning of the golden rule, so let me repeat: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Plain and simple. However, his comments just show how nasty some Armenians can be to each other…and how much some people need to be in total control, to the point that they will hurl insults rather than discussing things in a civilized way. If you care so much about Akhtamar, you – more than anyone else – really need to go there. And if you care about Armenia so much, then you really should put all your weight behind forcing the Armenian govt to re-unite w/ Karabagh, rather than pussyfooting around. Karabagh clearly belongs to Armenia, yet Armenia doesn’t even recognize it…that’s where your efforts should go, not to insulting people who care about Armenian history, culture and civilization w/ cheesy religious comments, as if to gain votes.
Not one cent to be spent on denial of the Armenian Genocide. By taking a trip there and feeding the Turkish and ADL denial machine, is the ultimate betrayal to Armenians all over the world.
Ragnar is a denier of the AG, but loves to pretend othewrwise. Maybe he should tell his friends in Ankara to stop playing games with Churches to which therir claim of ownership is merely the product of murder.
Forgive me mjm for this, but I want to point out that several times you have used the word ‘marbles’ where I think you mean to use the word ‘marvels’. Look it up in the dictionary and you will see what I mean. Your articulate and well organized comments are not diminished by this small error, but I thought you would like to know…
I like Katia K.’s suggestion that all who attend the Sourp Khatch mass wear black as a symbolic gesture highlighting the sorrow we feel as a nation for all the souls and other churches lost to us. I would only add to this a slight alteration. We should wear white with a black arm band. White to signify our hope and faith in the enduring place of Armenians in that part of the world and the black arm band to represent our mourning for what has been decimated, stolen, denied but not forsaken by us.
So now that they’re not putting up a cross on the church until after the so-called “liturgy”, are people still going there? I hope not.
the church belongs to no one but God. He resides in the hearts of Believers, whether they be in Aghtamar, an apartment in Yerevan or the Armenian slums of St. Paulo. Christ foretold the destruction of The Holy of Holy’s, the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 AD. If buildings were so important He would have stopped the Romans–no true worshippers will worship God in Spirit and Truth. 1.5 million faithful chose Christ, not a material life. for centuries Armenians have been told by foreign rulers when they could worship- from Mamuluk overlords, Byzantium emperors, Seljik Turks and Mongols,. the Armenians separated the political oppression from their time of pure worship -AND CONQUERED THE POLITICAL OPPRESSION. Glory to God