PARIS, France (A.W.)—The Armenian National Committee office in France and the European Armenian Federation for Justice and Democracy (EAFJD) issued a joint statement today strongly condemning the Dec. 17 ruling of the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) that the denial of the Armenian genocide is not a criminal offense. According to the Court, the 2007 decision of the Lausanne Police Court against the head of Turkish Workers’ Party Dogu Perincek is a violation of the right to freedom of expression. (Read the Court’s press release here.)
The statement considered the ruling to be direct assistance to the wave of denial orchestrated by official Ankara and Baku throughout Europe. “Once again hiding behind the right to free speech, and following the example of the French Constitutional Council, the European Court undermines with this infamous decision the right to dignity of the victims and descendants of the Armenian genocide,” read the statement.
The statement further noted that the decision will “undoubtedly strengthen extremist movements” and undermine the voices calling for justice from within Turkey.
“Moreover, by declaring that ‘it would be very difficult to identify a general consensus’ on the Armenian genocide, the Court aligns itself with Perincek’s statement that the Armenian genocide is an ‘international lie.’ The Court’s approach that ‘clearly distinguished the present case from those concerning the negation of the crimes of the Holocaust’ is also deplorable. How can such a distinction be made by the highest human rights court in Europe?”
In conclusion, the statement noted that the ANC of France, in coordination with the EAFJD Brussels office, will fight against this unacceptable decision. “Switzerland has three months to appeal this verdict. We have requested a meeting with the Swiss Ambassador in Paris, to present our expectations from the Swiss authorities. Coordinated efforts will be made in other countries as well, through local ANCs and regional offices, as well as through official Yerevan, as we form a united front against this decision,” concluded the statement.
And somebody was critisizing Armenia for joining
the custom union! Take a look to thìs european instuition clowns.
il n’y a pas de lien entre cette décision et l’entrée à”maxayin mioutyoun”!!!!anhetetoutyoun e es ter aradze!!!
Don’t you think this is revenge?!!!
Makes one wonder if Armenia’s Customs Union decision influenced this “ruliing”. It just goes to show, the EU is neither enlightened nor the body of integrity it claims that it is. Then again, the Europeans having sold us out to Turkey since the beginning of the Genocide, what else can be expected? Their Kangaroo “courts” love playing double standard. Bunch of phonies.
You are 100% right Hagop,Armenia’s decision to join the Customs Union has definetly a lot to do with, anyway who wants to join the crumbling, can’t even look after their own members, back stabing EU.
We have been a surviving nation for centuries will rise and be strong again.
This is not the first time Europe shows his true face. Looking back at our history shows how many times they back stabbed us , starting from genocide and giving Kilikia to Turks. This time we tried to trust them again with Artsax resolution and they didn’t even feel the moral obligation to help us in Artsax question. I don’t even want to bring up the axe murderer safarov’s release ….
You lost the a century ago and now so you are flapping around like a headless chicken
Lost to whom? Armenians were not a warring side to anybody a century ago. Armenians were citizens of a state the government of which annihilated and forcibly deported all of them as part of a centrally-planned genocide. Next time you post, educate yourself a bit about facts. And this “john the turk” pen name amuses me. A Muslim turk posting under the name of a Christian saint “John”. Have you come up with this idea or someone else helped you?
If Armenians ‘lost’ then I suppose you think Turks ‘won.’? Yes, the Young Turks ‘won’ in the most dishonorable way possible—committing genocide against your own citizens in order to create ‘a home for Turks’ is not an act of war, but a crime. The European Court decision changes none of this; your country is still guilty of genocide.
Europe is trying to cover it’s own ass by trying to conceal the fact that she too had a major roll in the extermination process. Europe(France,England and especially Germany) enhanced and solidified the agenda of the Turks.
Europe, you had blood on your hands in 1915, and you now have blood on your hands in 2013.
SHAME ON YOU.
Eh, not really. Certainly not a major role. Britain and France were at war with the Ottoman Empire so I’m throwing those two out. Germany played an indirect role, training Turkish troops, supplies, etc. But again, there was a war. Germany was aiding an ally. Can’t put THAT much blame on Germany. But spreading the blame only makes Turkey less responsible, and why would Armenians want to do that?
Not really, RVDV. Germans played more than an indirect role and did more than mere training and supplies. There were cases of instigation against the Armenians. When masses of innocent Armenian civilians were butchered by the Turks just miles away from the Berlin-Baghdad railway, Germans knew but chose to show criminal negligence. This clearly goes beyond war because Armenians were not a side in it.
Everything is political… Now there is only one choice “A united, strong Armenian nation with enough power to have a voice…Something that still can be achieved and this time for god’s sake not lost” this is the will of Armenian forefathers and now ours. It must be fulfilled. All else doesn’t do anything for us… One Nation, One Language, Unity and freedom. Only at this time the souls of many victims will be in peace.
God bless you all…
1. These pro-Turkey stances with regard to the Armenian genocide disprove the “EU is a Christian club” theorists.
2. As stated in the article, these rulings will embolden denialists.
3. ‘it would be very difficult to identify a general consensus’
It would very difficult to NOT find a general consensus if you take out people with agendas.
The way I look at it, there was never a “Christian club” ever in history, including in the middle ages. Neither was there a “Muslim club”. These notions go only so far and are superficial. They disappear outright once economics gets involved. After money was invented (and thus control of society), perhaps 99% of major events/wars happened because of it. Even today, Syria is one more example. The two Muslim factions are fighting one another for future economic benefit, will the pipelines go east to west, or south to north. It is superficially about religion and “freedom”.
Likewise here, if Armenians had great monetary influence in the world like Jews, Europe would have licked Armenian boots and bled Turkey dry long ago. The Armenian Genocide did a lot more damage to us than people think. It destroyed our chance to have any kind of influence on future events, and before the Genocide, we were well poised to have an important role in the economics of the region.
{The Armenian Genocide did a lot more damage to us than people think. It destroyed our chance to have any kind of influence on future events, and before the Genocide, we were well poised to have an important role in the economics of the region.}
Excellent, deep observation of one of the other objectives of the planners of AG (besides land grab) [Hagop D]. Not widely known or appreciated as to the massive detrimental consequences to us.
Hagop: I agree. Armenia is only a fraction of what it possibly could have been, land and people wise. Not that eastern Turkey is particularly rich in resources, but the oil fields to your east… well.. that would have changed things.
I believe we should leave name calling and insulting aside. All support should be given for a Swiss appeal to the decision.
One important aspect from the decision that Canadian armenians should note that The canadian government’s decision to recognize the armenian genocide in April 2006 is the main valid legal decision and not highlight the parliament’s recognition in 2004 that is usually publicised or written.
You see dear Armenians why you can not go to the world court in order to get Turkey convicted
When will those armenians understand that they are Europe or Russia’s pawn and they play with them whenever they want? Give me one small reason why Europe would choose armenia ovre TURKS? None…
Also, this may help you understand what is going on Europe with regards to Turks!
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/integration-boost-german-state-appoints-first-minister-of-turkish-origin-a-690036.html
“For everything there is a season, a time for every activity under heaven.” –Ecclesiastes 3:1, Holy Bible
While Europeans have backstabbed us again and again, so have the Russians. It would be a mistake to view this as some kind of “proof” that we Russia is somehow better. Russians have backstabbed us before the Genocide, during the Genocide, and after the Genocide (remember the Kars treaty). True, for now Russia protects us, but only because it fits their interests. As I have said before, the moment it needs Azerbaijan more than it needs Armenia, it will throw away Armenia like a piece of cloth. In other words, Armenia’s plan should be stick with Russia (for security), have good relations with the West (for economy, to avoid isolation, and for democracy), and prosper and strengthen in the meanwhile so it will be ready when Russia chooses to backstub Armenia again. The only way to prosper and become stronger for Armenia is democracy (based on historical evidence). And that is where we Diasporans need to concentrate our efforts.
democratic India: a basket case; rampant poverty; food insecurity; inefficiency; miserable human development metrics.
one-party rule autocratic China: a booming economy; powerful military; human development metrics not even a contest with India.
and China just landed a rover on the Moon: only the 3rd country in the world to do so.
{“And that is where we Diasporans need to concentrate our efforts.”}
There is no such thing as Turkbeijani diaspora, քոչվորoğlu: you speaking about “we Diasporans” makes as much sense as “Orun Yıldırım.”
And bring democracy to your own homeland, Turkbeijan: it has been an autocratic sultanate since it was dumped on the curbside by USSR.
Armenia has been quite democratic since her independence, nomad.
Footnotes:
Hey, the language of the Turks is quite beautiful. Take, for example, the phrase “Orun Yıldırım.”
(Vahagn // December 17, 2013 at 4:20 pm //)
Vahagn: too bad that phrase makes no sense.
(RVDV // December 17, 2013 at 7:04 pm //)
I’d be interested to know an alternative Azeri view from the commenter posting under the name “Vahagn” as to how, from the historical point of view, the Russians have “backstabbed” Armenians before and during the genocide. I’d also like to remind the Azeri poster that the Kars treaty, which had been signed after the genocide, was the result of pressure from the Bolshevik ruling elites, the prevailing majority of whom, including Lenin, were non-Russians.
Avery,
India also has a successful space program. You’re cherry picking examples here.
The US and many European countries such as France, England and Germany also have strong vibrant democratic countries, so what’s your point?
One of the main issues is the level of corruption, a word you did not use. Corruption is very high in India, as well as China. Those countries which have a much better grip on corruption do much, much better than those who do not.
You’re arguing against democracy, because your favorite guy, Serj, is in power. You don’t want democracy to get in the way of this. And this is so upsetting to many Armenians such as myself. Complete black&white partisan support and excuses of Serj Sarkisian. Yes Serj is in power, but he should and can do better, and his shortcomings should be pointed out. I would much rather hear a rational and realistic discussion of those in power in Armenia. Only praising the good and completely ignoring the bad is not healthy. And this is what I see coming from you.
And Serj has the ability to crack down on corruption. The sooner, the better. This is not something that you can put off and do later. It’s like interest on 401k or planting trees, the sooner you start it, the better it will be 10-20-50 years down the road.
Random:
You can cherry pick, I can cherry pick: where the problem ?
India has a space program, but China’s space program is far more advanced.
How many men or women has India sent to space ?
How many robots has India landed on any planet in space ?
You comparing India’s space program to China’s takes the cake.
And we call the duly elected President of RoA, President Sargsyan, not ‘Serj’: do you call President Obama “Barak” in your posts ?
How many days did you serve during the NKR war to give yourself the (moral) right to call a war veteran ‘Serj’ ?
And your understanding of Democracy and mine are different.
You are arguing for some undefined version of ‘democracy’, because your favourite candidate, Raffi Hovannisian, lost. Massively.
In a fair, democratic election: he lost 58% to 37%.
His democratic loss was confirmed during Yerevan municipal elections, when RPA got 55% and Barev/Heritage got only 8.5%.
Prosperous got 23%.
Proof that had Prosperous run in Presidential elections, Mr. Hovannisian would get no more than 10%, if that.
Democracy at work.
Armenia’s Presidential elections were so democratic in fact that even a person who ‘campaigned’ in a tent was allowed to run.
In ‘democratic’ US, meanwhile, an intelligent viable candidate, Rep Ron Paul, was thrown all sorts of roadblocks to make him disappear politically.
The US Supreme court illegally intervened in Sovereign State of Florida’s state elections to, in effect, select President Bush.
Al Gore in fact won the popular, democratic vote: 48.4% Gore vs 47.9% Bush.
You were saying about democracy ?
[“democratic India … China … bla bla …”]
How many times do I have to debunk you, gyavuroghlu? India is ranked as a flawed democracy. We should emulate successful democracies (like the U.S.), not flawed ones. Calling Armenia democratic is like calling Serzh literate.
[“In a fair, democratic election: he lost 58% to 37%.”]
Perhaps in the fantasy world of Serzh and his lackeys, buddy boy. Too bad for Serzh that the cooked up official numbers have no legitimacy among the Armenian people. The overblown voter numbers in many electoral districts were so ridiculously high that they alone make a joke out of the official “results”.
The U.S. Supreme Court did not illegally intervene in Florida Supreme Court’s decision. It found that the state court’s decision violated the federal constitution. You may disagree with the Court’s decision, but Armenians in Armenia would dream of living under that system, where a court can make a decision contrary to the incumbent’s wishes.
[“How many days did you serve during the NKR war”]
How many days did you serve in the nkr war, gyavuroghlu? While you were hiding in the United States as a nomad.
Vahagn: “where a court can make a decision contrary to the incumbent’s wishes.”
What does that even mean? There was NO incumbent. Bill Clinton was still President. Bush and Gore were running.
[“What does that even mean? There was NO incumbent. Bill Clinton was still President. Bush and Gore were running.”]
Brother SPQR, Clinton was the incumbent. He favored Gore. I would paste the definition of “incumbent” but I am too lazy. I am sure you can find that one of the definitions is an official still serving in the office.
Is it not even remotely possible that the court simply upheld one of the cornerstones of real democracy, and a key value of Europe, the right to one’s own opinion and the right to express it?
No it is not possible: if it were, people would not have spent time in jail in Europe for denying the JH.
Quite a number of Europeans were imprisoned for expressing their “opinion” about JH.
Here is a partial list of people _imprisoned_ for Holocaust denial.
Gaston-Armand Amaudruz: Switzerland 1 year imprisonment,
David Irving: Austria 1 year imprisonment
Ernst Zündel: Germany 5 years’ imprisonment
In case you missed it: these people actually spent time in jail
There are many more: look it up.
There are many reasons why Armenian Genocide is being disrespected.
One reason is we still do not have the Diasporan wealth and political influence of Diaspora Jews.
The other is that Jews had to deal with individual Holocaust Denialists: we have to counter a Denialist State and individuals.
Germany not only did not deny the JH, but actively fights denialists (e.g. Ernst Zündel)
Turkey has many commercial ties with Europe: it cannot but influence their politicians and judges.
It’s OK: since 1965, we have been making steady progress.
We’ll lose some and win many more.
Your AG nightmare will not go away.
“The other is that Jews had to deal with individual Holocaust Denialists: we have to counter a Denialist State and individuals.”
I am always looking for well put summaries that capture the essence of our struggle. And your summary does this. It’s not just that we’re dealing with a denialist state (there is Iran’s leadership w/r to the Holocaust), but that the state is the successor to the guilty party, and this state uses political, military and economic alliances to accomplish it’s denial. A lot of people see us Armenians as angry over something in the past but do not see what Turkey is doing. Explaining the issue well is very important.
Also regarding outlawing denialism, this is done in countries where the Holocaust occurred. That is a major motivation in setting up such laws. While I don’t think this fact blocks outlawing denial of the Armenian genocide, the same motivation and justification may not be there. Holocaust denial is not illegal in the US, but I’m sure depending on how one goes about, there could be hate laws against it.
I’m still on the fence on outlawing denial of the genocide. Acceptance is what’s critical.
One other major reason why Armenian Genocide is being disrespected:
Jews fought for recognition and retributions.
Armenians fight for recognition, retributions, AND ancestral land restitution.
Where there is an Armenian Genocide issue, then there is plenty of Turkish delights. Those hungry demoralized fake “black robe” judges willing to have more delights, than ever before!!
This is despicable…and, perhaps it is really all about maintaining the supremacy of the Holocaust? Let’s identify exactly the judges who issued this ruling, by name and affiliation.
95% of all political… Now there is only one choice “A united, strong Armenian nation with enough power to have a voice…Something that still can be achieved and this time for god’s sake not lost” this is the will of Armenian forefathers and now ours. It must be fulfilled. All else doesn’t do anything for us… One Nation, One Language, Unity and freedom. Only at this time the souls of many victims will be in peace.
God bless you all…
An old rule says: Follow the money trail
This is an appeasement to the Turkish Government who is the dominant force in the Middle East.
ONLY a UNITED FRONT from all over the world can remind them that appeasement is only short term and will eventually backfire as it will set and will definitely be used as a dangerous future precedent.
A very oily documentt: early in the text Perincek is not seen by the Court as harming “public order”. Later in the text “”inciting hatred” becomes the issue. Which is it? Why the drift in terms?
An “international lie”? Then who are the liars? This is not instigating hatred?!
An ‘international lie”? Then Raphael Lemkin was the original liar? This is the kind of defendant the Court has no qualms about taking under its wing! Ah, Europe, European! How sweet the words!
Early in the text, “general consensus” on the factuality of genocide is the issue. Later it drifts to “unanimity”. Why? Won’t “general consensus” deliver?
There is no “general consensus” on the Armenian Genocide—because only Turkey and its agents deny it? Ah, Europe, European! The same old story. And are we to believe that this is all because “first amendment fever” has suddenly and belatedly penetrated European skulls? ? ?
Perincek does not deny the massacres–everywhere, east to west, north to south–but rejects the “characterization” of genocide? He does not deny that men, women and children, intellectuals and peasants alike were destroyed en masse only because they were Armenian, but does not see genocide in it? He and the Court–the blind leading the blind. Ah, Europe!
“He does not deny that men, women and children, intellectuals and peasants alike were destroyed en masse only because they were Armenian, but does not see genocide in it?”
And this is the issue with the court ruling. They said that it’s not the same as denying the gas chambers existed. But that’s a straw man argument. Denial does not always come in the form of outright denial of facts, but in the form of misrepresentation, cherry picking, and half-truths such that something appears to be less that what it is. You don’t have to deny Armenians died, or were not deported in order to deny it was genocide.
The ruling said:
“In those cases, the applicants had denied the historical facts even
though they were sometimes very concrete, such as the existence of the
gas chambers.”
This is not clear in the writing of the court’s judgement. Does denying the existence of gas chambers deny that Jews were killed? Or that Jews were killed but there was no intent of genocide? There is more than one way to deny genocide.
95% of this is political… Now there is only one choice “A united, strong Armenian nation with enough power to have a voice…Something that still can be achieved and this time for god’s sake not lost” this is the will of Armenian forefathers and now ours. It must be fulfilled. All else doesn’t do anything for us… One Nation, One Language, Unity and freedom. Only at this time the souls of many victims will be in peace.
God bless you all…
Avery
You are optimistic but not realistic
At least he is one of the two, as you think. But you, who are you based on your ridiculous pen name: a Muslim or a Christian?
Someone who denies Holocaust commits a crime. What a nonsense that is! Instead of the society regarding the person an ignorant imbecile, the courts are asked to intervene that may even ‘elevate’ the person to a status of a ‘hero’ to the ignorant anti semite. Will those who deny Darwinian theory be criminalized next to become ‘martyrs’ to misguided Christians?
I for one never supported this venture. The verdict of the court concerns me the least.
I would prefer wider recognition of AG over such verdicts. By the US, UK, Israel, and Germany (containing the G-word), first and foremost.
If there is a place in the mind nothing is impossible or unrealistic. That is why we are in the position that we are in today. You will get the opportunity to realize when the time comes and it will be your choice to push or stand aside and watch it fail. We need everyone when the time comes!!!
Give your life for that final push. For the ideology that has been with us and torturing us for centuries.
Best Wishes…
Truthfully speaking, I place very little importance on this particular decision, rendered by the European Court of Human Rights. Even Hrant Dink, the famous Armenian civil rights activist from Istanbul, while alive, cared very little about this particular topic. We Armenians, have nothing to be discouraged about in this European Court decision. It was already evident before, that this particular decision would end up this way. Anyway, what we need to focus on, is obtaining worldwide recognition of the Armenian Genocide, as well as obtaining the reparations that are due to the Armenian people by the government of Turkey, in the form of stolen properties, the stolen lands of Western Armenia, and several billion dollars for the extermination of 1.5 million Armenians. Just because the European Court did not rule in favor of making it a crime to deny the occurrence of the Armenian Genocide, does not in any way obstruct the possibility of Turkey being sued in that very same European Court for its role in committing the Armenian Genocide. I still think we Armenians have a pretty good chance of winning this lawsuit. And, let me also remind you that in addition to the European Court, there is also the International Court of Justice. A legal team has already been selected by the government of Armenia to pursue this lawsuit. So, it’s a matter of time before the Armenian Genocide lawsuit against Turkey, ends up in court. Once again, we Armenians should feel confident in our chance of victory. And, just in case things end up not going our way in court, don’t forget about those twenty million unhappy Kurds in the southeast region of Turkey who are already making noise about their desire for independence. As soon as they revolt, they will easily break off that whole entire region from Turkey. And once they do that, it will be very easy for the Kurdified Armenians of northeastern Turkey to break off that region and unite it with the Republic of Armenia. The Islamic Crescent nation of Turkey, has a huge surprise coming its way. Whether in court, or outside of court, Turkey’s long overdue punishment will be delivered, and justice will be served.
Such intimidation of folks who speak against certain myths, let alone facts was too much for Europeans who certainly have their contradictions and double standards. It is an uphill battle to protect untruths, no?
Myths?? There were up to 2.5 mln Armenians living in the Ottoman Turkey before 1915. How many live there now? What happened to these native, civilized inhabitants, their churches, monasteries, community organizations, schools, businesses, cultural edifices, bank accounts, properties, insurance indemnities, graveyards, etc.? Where do you see anything mythical?
A Denialist Turk talking about ‘intimidation’ takes the cake: apparently Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code is a myth.
Our work for recognition of the Armenian Genocide by more States and other governmental and non-governmental entities will continue unabated.
So will the work to explicitly Criminalize AG Denial: first in France, and after that in other Europeans countries.
Meanwhile enjoy some news from your Turkish land of no-intimidation:
[CPJ report: Turkey listed again as leading jailer of journalists]
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-334294-cpj-report-turkey-listed-again-as-leading-jailer-of-journalists.html
[Martial law resurfaces for journalists in police departments]
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-334619-martial-law-resurfaces-for-journalists-in-police-departments.html
[Journalists banned from entering police stations across Turkey]
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/journalists-banned-from-entering-police-stations-across-turkey.aspx?pageID=238&nID=59948&NewsCatID=341
The decision by the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) takes nothing away from the fact that the Armenian Genocide is indeed a historical fact. On the surface, from the spineless liberal European perspective, this decision is all about freedom of expression while from the perspective of the two-faced, insincere, opportunistic Turkish hypocrites it is the right not to freedom of speech to express opposing views per se but rather the right to the freedom to deny the Armenian Genocide.
The reasons behind such a decision by the ECHR and the current events in the region indirectly surrounding the Armenian Genocide recognition and acknowledgement is so complex and there are so many factors to consider that only a Turkish “illiterate genius”, an oxymoron by the way, such as @Murat with lack of depth, mental capacity, devoid of morality and filled with anti-Armenian racist feelings can easily and simple-mindedly summarize the entire thing in a single sentence.
To understand the Turkish denialist stand against the Armenian Genocide recognition you need to understand the psychology behind it. It is not because the death marches and the preplanned and government-sponsored mass extermination of the Armenians and the confiscation of Western Armenian provinces as a result, did not occur because it did indeed. I mean there are no Armenians in Western Armenia, today falsely known as eastern Turkey, anymore when less than a hundred years ago there were over two million of them living there for thousands of years. All Western Armenian provinces are still under Turkish occupation and completely devoid of its native Armenian population. To comprehend the Turkish psychology of denial you need to realize that at the time the Turks committed this brutal and monstrous crime under the cover of WWI had already figured and taken into account that they will be victorious in the war and no one would care about what happened to their Armenian victims once the war was over and the Turks emerged victorious. But of course things did not turn out the way the Turks planned and expected and they lost the war miserably and their crime of genocide was revealed and today they are faced with never-ending nightmares of their miscalculations. They are now trying to do “damage control” by trying to water down their genocidal acts by deception and falsification in attempts to label this crime anything other than genocide in order to escape the consequences of what genocide implies.
I believe the Turks are the biggest cowards in the world because they glorify the actions of their blood-thirsty ancestors over the centuries and today what they are the most proud of in their bloody history is their conquests and the misery they brought upon countless nations as a result but when it comes time for accountability for their criminal acts all of a sudden, like a cornered and scared kitten, they take defensive postures and start to shiver. They even go as far as calling themselves a compassionate and hospitable nation. How many such nations can anyone name when their compassion and hospitality was responsible for exterminating 10% of the total 30 million Ottoman Armenian population?
Unlike the past, today the Turkish society is divided on this issue. Recently, the Turkish Prime Minister Davutoglu, and for the first time in the Turkish history of bloodshed and by a high-ranking government official, has called the 1915 Armenian death marches as inhumane thus contradicting all the lies fed to the Turkish public and to the world by the former Turkish governments over the years. Such unprecedented statement in Armenia by Davutoglu, the contradicting views within the Turkish society on this issue and the “false victory” perceived by the Turkish officials in European decision I think in the long run will work against Turkey and will eventually turn out to be a blessing in disguise for the Armenian Cause and here is why: As I mentioned at the beginning, this ruling takes nothing away from the official world view that the Armenian Genocide is indeed a fact but by upholding the freedom of expression of Turkish officials, or anyone else for that matter, to express their own views on this matter ECHR is also indirectly forcing Turkey to reciprocate the gesture and remove all obstacles from Turkish public, the objective and open-minded Turkish intellectuals in particular, to have the freedom to express their own as well as their educated and legitimately-researched views on the Armenian Genocide without any fear of punishment, reprisals and imprisonment if they want to avoid looking like a bunch of lying and opportunistic hypocrites. Given all that, this means the Armenian Genocide will be even more openly and freely discussed in Turkey than it is now and slowly but surely the Turkish public will uncover that dirty secret the Turkish government has tried so hard and for so long to hide from them.
P.S. Here are some of my points behind the reasons surrounding the decisions and the behaviors of the Europeans and the Turkish government officials in regards to the Armenian Genocide recognition and acknowledgement:
– European energy needs and the significance of the Caspian energy resources and the anti-Armenian Azerbaijani supplier role in this.
– Placing high value on the above in order to facilitate the bankruptcy and isolation of Iran through oil embargo to force Iran to give up on its nuclear program, thus giving Azerbaijan even more influence on European decision making as they apply to the Armenians.
– Azerbaijani veto power over the Turkish public as well as having the power to dictate the Turkish foreign policy toward Armenia, in regards to the Karabakh conflict, through the supply of oil to Turkey at dirt cheap prices as well as multi-billion dollar energy contracts.
– Enormous and fatal consequences for Turkey of the Armenian Genocide recognition in terms of financial reparations in billions of dollars and loss of occupied Armenian territory.
– Membership of the most European countries, as well as Turkey, in NATO alliance and team play.
– Armenia being more in the Russian sphere of influence rather than the Western one and the fact that no so long ago, perhaps even today, the Russians and the Western World were foes and rivals with opposing policies in the region.
– Armenia considered as the black sheep of the European family, because of its close relations with Europe’s former foe and current expansionist NATO’s rival Russia, despite Armenia’s common value system with Europe, more or less.
– Significance of Turkey to both Europe and NATO in regards to the Muslim World in return for Turkish security in the region.
– Turkish-Israeli “false” alliance and Zionist infiltration into the US government and using Zionist lobbies as pimps bribed by Turkey, as well as Zionist influence on European decision making via US influence as NATO leader, in favor of Turkey and against Armenian Genocide resolutions in return for Turkish-Israeli cooperation against the so-called Muslim World.
– AND many more….
@Murat, you might want to noodle on the above points to educate yourself a little instead of giving one-line blanket answer to something you don’t seem to fully comprehend.
Most of the above commentators seem to have completely missed the point that in a genuinely free society people should be totally free to state their beliefs regarding historical events without fear of being fined or imprisoned, even if others may find those beliefs offensive. I am appalled that a large section of the Armenian community seems to want to ban anyone from disagreeing with them regarding the tragic events of 1915. Outlawing denial of the alleged Armenian Genocide is a step along the path towards a totalitarian society where people are forbidden to express their opinions. Freedom of speech, if it is to mean anything, must include the right to say things which others do not wish to hear. No-one has the right not to be offended. Causing offense is part of freedom of speech. People should only be banned from incitement to violence or other illegal acts.
The idea of Armenia forcing Turkey to pay out billions of dollars and to give up vast tracts of its country to be incorporated into a greater Armenia is totally unjust and totally absurd. All the perpetrators of the massacres are long dead. It is disgusting that Turkish people today should have to suffer because of the crimes of their ancestors. As a British person I expect that I have ancestors who took part in horrific events such as the slave trade, the brutal crushing of the Indian Mutiny or the Opium War with China. However, I don’t expect to have to suffer because of the crimes of these ancestors. Likewise, I don’t hate German or Japanese people because of the crimes that their ancestors may have committed against British people in the Second World War. People from the Armenian community must put the past behind them and start trying to cultivate friendly relations with the Turks.
{“ Outlawing denial of the alleged Armenian Genocide is a step along the path towards a totalitarian society where people are forbidden to express their opinions.”}
Alleged ?
When a Turkophile limey shill uses the denialist phrase “alleged” Armenian Genocide, the entire post is therefore nothing but a paid Turkish advertisement for his Turkish pimps, who purchased the services of a down-on-his-luck highfalutin British gentry, who is reduced to licking Turks’ Pabuj for a few pence. There is a word for that kind of debasement in English: it starts with a ‘w’. We call them ‘working girls’ this side of the pond, old chap.
Say old chap, why did you British racists find those two poor black Muslim guys who allegedly beheaded a white British soldier in London guilty ?
We heard the two black men were falsely convicted by an all-white racist jury, who allegedly ‘deliberated’ for all of 90 minutes.
Is there any proof that the poor blokes allegedly killed the poor bloke ?
It has been alleged that the white soldier actually attacked the two black men and they were trying to defend themselves.
I mean, it is not the first time that white British imperialists have murdered non-whites during their imperial conquests, is it ?
@Alec, the Turkish officials are not advocates and proponents of freedom of speech so they can express their own views on this issue because if they were such freedom loving people they themselves would give the same rights to their own people in Turkey to express their views contrary to the official view of the Turkish government instead of stifling them with intimidation, reprisals and imprisonment. They want their freedom of expression so they can continue feeding the world their lies, fabrications and falsifications of history and to continue to deny their genocidal acts in order to avoid the enormous consequences associated with the crime of genocide.
Assuming you are who you claim to be, I find it very interesting and rather hypocritical that a descendant of a people who not so long ago not only occupied, subjugated and ruled half the Asian continent but enriched itself by robbing them of their natural resources wants the Armenians, whose nation was not only subjected to mass extermination and genocide but 90% of its homeland confiscated as a result, to make peace with the genocidal Turks and get on with their lives. You want Armenians to put the past behind them and cultivate friendly relations with a people who to this day deny ethnically cleansing Western Armenian provinces of its indigenous Armenian population, confiscating and occupying their homeland to carve out the illegal and fascist state of Turkey in 1923 when only recently in the British forces waged war on Argentina in 1982 to establish their rule over their colony of the Falkland Islands off the coast of Argentina and thousands of miles away from the British coast line. What a joke indeed!
A friendly advice to a Brit who may be a Turk in disguise for all I know: People who live in glass houses don’t throw stones!
Alec or perhaps Ali, armed with access to Wikipedia:
Other than perhaps fearing that your little nation might face claims for reparation from the billions as far away as India and as close as Ireland, why would reparations fill your timorous little soul with such trepidation? Read Umit Ungor’s work detailing just how much of Turkish society is built on stolen Armenian wealth. And throw in Bishop Bilakian’s memoir, or that of any number of German, Scandinavian and Venezuelans who described the methodical destruction of women and children, if you doubt that men in uniform under orders did the killing with supreme Islamic gusto. Throw in Toynbee for good measure. Do they teach Toynbee in Izmir, Ali?
I guess Alec/Ali has declared a statute of limitation for genocide being the death of the last murderer. Wot! Good show!
Alec Toynton,
Turkey confiscated all the properties and business and wealth of Armenians that the Young Turk government either massacred or sent into death marches. Turkey has benefited financially from the genocide, which they caused. It was not just the destruction of the Armenian component of the Ottoman Empire, but looting of the wealth. Financial compensation makes sense and is just.
The republic of Turkey also confiscated properties from its Greek, Armenian and Jewish minorities in 1939. Only some of these have been returned in the past few years thanks to new laws. In 1942, Turkey passed wealth tax laws which targeted these same minorities in extreme disproportions. Armenians received the highest taxes. Those who could not pay were sent to labor camps. And this is by the republican government. Imagine what was being done during WWI by the Young Turk government.
Take for example the Sabanci family. They are a major and successful business in Turkey, and they got their start with confiscated Armenian property and business. Interestingly, Sabanci University is one of the few places in Turkey where ‘genocide’ is applied to 1915.
And all this is not about making you and world hate Turks. That’s a straw man argument. This is about making sure Turkey’s intent of erasing a bloody chapter of their history, does not happen. Whether making the denial of it illegal is the right way, I am personally not convinced.
Turkey is the one that has been covering up their history, distorting it at home and abroad, and trying to prevent any discussion of it. It is Turkey that needs to take steps towards Armenians, not the other way around. Your suggestion is condescending and patronizing.
Alec Toynton, You say that banning the denial of the Armenian genocide is the first step toward totalitarianism. Do you observe any decline in European democracy resulting from the ban on Holocaust denial? Please specify. If not, why not? Why would the same ban on the Armenian Genocide be more dangerous to freedom of expression? Do you not see the very real contemporary problems that allowing Holocaust denial would have in Europe? Would it not lead to a rise in open hostility to Jewish people? Are the Armenians of Europe not entitled to the same protections of their dignity and peace of mind and
public memorialization of the genocide that destroyed their homeland and ancestors without being called liars by flame throwing Turkish nationalists operating in tandem with the Turkish government?
While sounding the alarm about the dangers of banning denial of the Armenian Genocide in Switzerland, you conveniently ignore the fact that, despite the apparent breaching of the taboo here and there, it is still officially forbidden to affirm the Armenian Genocide in Turkey. That set of laws is still on the
books and can be used at any moment to imprison persons of conscience. Are you equally concerned with the advance of free expression in Turkey as with the problems caused by the Swiss law?
@Alec, the Turkish officials are not advocates and proponents of freedom of speech so they can express their own views on this issue because if they were such freedom loving people they themselves would give the same rights to their own people in Turkey to express their views contrary to the official view of the Turkish government instead of stifling them with intimidation, reprisals and imprisonment. They want their freedom of expression so they can continue feeding the world their lies, fabrications and falsifications of history and to continue to deny their genocidal acts in order to avoid the enormous consequences associated with the crime of genocide.
Assuming you are who you claim to be, I find it very interesting and rather hypocritical that a descendant of a people who not so long ago not only occupied, subjugated and ruled half the Asian continent but enriched itself by robbing them of their natural resources wants the Armenians, whose nation was not only subjected to mass extermination and genocide but 90% of its homeland confiscated as a result, to make peace with the genocidal Turks and get on with their lives. You want Armenians to put the past behind them and cultivate friendly relations with a people who to this day deny ethnically cleansing Western Armenian provinces of its indigenous Armenian population, confiscating and occupying their homeland to carve out the illegal and fascist state of Turkey in 1923 when only recently in the British forces waged war on Argentina in 1982 to establish their rule over their colony of the Falkland Islands off the coast of Argentina and thousands of miles away from the British coast line. What a joke indeed!
A friendly advice to a Brit who may be a Turk in disguise for all I know: People who live in glass houses don’t throw stones!
European countries have always been against Christians residing in Moslems’ countries. I consider the European countries infidels trading Armenian Genocide and Christianity for their own benifit. To prove their infidelity: Shipping arms through Turkey to destroy our churches. I prefer Moslems rather than Europeans etc. period.