When entering Artsakh for the first time you are overwhelmed by the grandeur of the countryside, with its steep mountains and deep narrow valleys. Knowing the history of the ancient Armenian land adds to the emotional attachment you feel for this small piece of paradise. By nightfall, having strolled the streets of Stepanakert by day, you can’t be but impressed by the indomitable spirit of its people.
It has been less than two decades since the ceasefire in 1994 brought some semblance of peace to this region. In that short span of time, our brothers and sisters have made great strides in rebuilding the infrastructure destroyed during the war for liberation against the Azeri military—developing democratic institutions of governance, and, most important, maintaining an enthusiasm and a “can-do” attitude that guarantees Artsakh’s continued development.
The recent announcement that Stepanakert has fielded a national soccer team was not headline news. However, its significance should not be overlooked. Although this is a fledgling effort made-up of inexperienced athletes in their late teens, the team will compete as a member of the Non-Recognized States Soccer Association. According to their coach, Sarkis Aghajanyan, it will be an opportunity for the Nagorno-Karabagh team (better it was named the Artsakh national soccer team) to play in the international arena under the republic’s flag and to the strains of its national anthem.
What great role models these young athletes can be to the young boys and girls of Artsakh. And what an important role the national soccer team will have in representing their country on the world stage, albeit a limited stage. While President Ilham Aliyev continues with his threats and posturing for domestic consumption, supported by his unprecedented military expansion, the Artsakh-Armenians remain undeterred and unimpressed. This collective self-assurance, evidenced by the creation of a national soccer team, must infuriate the Azeri leadership in its failure to undermine the vitality and esprit of its new neighbor.
All we need to do is juxtapose the announcement of the creation of a national soccer team to the Safarov Affair. The stark contrast is instructive: In Stepanakert, the government is pursuing peaceful activities, threatening no one, and behaving as civilized governmental leaders should. In Azerbaijan, its president has realized that a favorable solution to the Artsakh issue slipped through his grasp long ago. In an attempt to refurbish his battered image and bruised ego, President Aliyev attempted to achieve a diplomatic coup of sorts by having Hungary extradite Safarov to Azerbaijan. So far so good. However, when Aliyev not only pardoned the convicted murderer of Lt. Gurgen Margaryan and then rewarded him as a hero for his crime, his actions went below even the lowest threshold of acceptable behavior by a head of state. This bizarre political exhibition became a public relations embarrassment. Foreign governments were openly critical of his lack of judgment. Whether or not Hungary’s prime minister, Viktor Orban, was unaware or complicit in what Aliyev planned to do is unimportant. However, when Hungary was caught in the political crossfire by the Safarov Affair, it immediately proclaimed its innocence. Hungary’s foreign minister, Janos Martonyi, demanded that Armenia reestablish diplomatic relations—a demand that seldom if ever occurs in the diplomatic arena.
President Sarkisian responded quickly and comprehensively to this diplomatic affront, as he should have. However, the Safarov Affair could have served to reinforce Armenia’s position in support of sovereignty for Artsakh. Think about it. A few months have passed and the affair has been forgotten. It’s obvious that Yerevan did what had to be done, and no more. The Armenian Diaspora did no better. Here was an opportunity to question the shameful support provided the despot Aliyev by the United States. Although Washington professes friendship for Armenia and the Artsakh people, it continues to work against their collective interests. By overreaching, Aliyev had given Karabagh (although Margaryan was an officer in the Republic of Armenia Army, not the Karabagh Defense Force) an opportunity to reinforce its claim to independence.
This debacle has only increased the domestic pressures on Aliyev as he chafes under the restraints that reality has imposed on his determination to reclaim Artsakh. The Safarov Affair was an opportunity to indicate why Artsakh’s freedom and independence could not be a subject for negotiation. For Aliyev only two options remain: Either he accepts Artsakh by agreement or by default, or he seeks the military solution that he constantly threatens. Shorn of any and all third-party restraints that prevent such a foolhardy decision, the likelihood of success is far from assured should internal pressures or his oversized ego force him to accept military action.
According to Matthew Bryza, the former United States ambassador to Azerbaijan, as well as other diplomats and analysts, the consensus is that Azerbaijan is not capable of defeating Karabagh. Bryza states that he doesn’t “…think they could dislodge the Armenian forces from the high ground…that’s extremely difficult.” Wayne Merry, a senior fellow at the American Foreign Policy Council, concurs that “a key factor is the topography, the extent to which Nagorno-Karabagh has created defenses in depth. Progress would come at a high cost.” Of greater significance is the opinion of Yusaf Agayev, an Azeri military expert who fought in the war that Azerbaijan lost. Agayev doesn’t believe “the society of my country is ready for war. I think it would be a month or two. That is the amount of time our armed forces could fight for. If it drags on longer, then it will be a war that society will have to participate in, not just the army.” These analyses fully support my analysis, which has been carefully explained in several articles, the first appearing some five years ago in 2007 (see “Azerbaijan’s Military Option in Karabakh,” the Armenian Reporter, May 26, 2007; and “Assessing Azerbaijan’s Military Threat to Retake Karabagh, Part I,” the Armenian Weekly, March 27, 2010, and “Part II,” April 3, 2010).
The Safarov Affair should serve to remind the Minsk Group co-chairs (the United States, France, and Russia) of the intense hatred that members of the Azeri leadership have for Armenians and Armenian culture. This hatred has been encouraged to fester within segments of the Azeri population. Safarov’s motive for murdering Margaryan attests to that. During the 70 years that Artsakh was under Azerbaijani jurisdiction, the Armenians endured discrimination, harassment, and a government policy of cultural eradication. The most egregious example of this policy of cultural eradication of the many that can be cited was the wanton destruction of thousands of hand-carved khatchars (stone monuments) in the 1,300-year-old cemetery in Julfa, Nakhitchevan. These stone memorials, standing five- to six-feet tall, were smashed into rubble and trucked away. Once the cemetery was cleared, it was further profaned when this hallowed ground was used as a military firing range.
The Azeri minister of foreign affairs, Elmar Mammadyarov, was critical of his president’s action in the Safarov Affair, properly realizing that exalting a convicted murderer while the world looked on would yield a benefit for Armenia and, by extension, Artsakh. Yet, Armenian leaders failed to use this opportunity to cite examples of Azerbaijan’s 70 year anti-Armenian policy. The Shahumian district, an integral part of Karabagh, was geographically detached and its Armenian population decimated through pogroms and deportations by the Azerbaijani government. It remains under Azeri military occupation, as do the eastern border regions of Mardakert and Martuni. Our claim to these territories should not be compromised by any claim that Baku may raise. When the government detached the Kelbajar district from Karabagh, the Armenians of Karabagh no longer had a common boundary with Armenia. This geographically isolated the Karabagh-Armenians to become an enclave of Azerbaijan (an exclave of Armenia) where they endured cultural harassment, economic discrimination, and a policy of cultural eradication.
The Safarov Affair was an opportunity to show the stark difference between the democratic society that has developed in Artsakh with the authoritarian government that continues to rule Azerbaijan. A stable, democratic, functioning government is sine qua non for recognition as a sovereign state. Instead, reports detailing the Safarov Affair appeared ad nauseam in the Armenian press, to the exclusion of its political value in promoting Artsakh’s cause.
We still seem unconvinced of the important strategic location of Armenia-Artsakh. Russia may seem to favor Azerbaijan at different times, but the loss of Armenia would be a serious political blow, effectively throwing it back to the northern slopes of the Caucasus. South Ossetia and Abkhazia might not remain independent for long should that happen. If Turkey and Azerbaijan prevail, the dream of pan-Turkic economic and political expansion through the south Caucasus into Central Asia would become a reality, to the detriment of Russian and Iranian interests. Although both countries are competitors, it is to their benefit to prevent a resurgent Turkey, most likely supported by the United States and possibly Israel, to dominate this strategic region.
Armenian organzations should have used the Safarov Affair as the springboard to immediately announce convening a group of recognized experts to make the case for Artsakh’s legal and moral right to declare its independence, whether under the principle of self-determination or remedial secession. One of several starting points could have been the Report of the International Conference of Experts (Barcelona, November 21 to 27, 1998), entitled “The Implementation of the Right to Self-Determination as a Contribution to Conflict Resolution.”
With respect to the claim that its territorial integrity has been violated by Armenia, Azerbaijan has been allowed to improperly apply Principle 4, under Chapter 2, Article 1 of the Charter of the United Nations that reads: “All members shall refrain…from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity…of any state.” Armenia has neither threatened nor has it used force against Azerbaijan. It is the Artsakh-Armenians (Principle 4 does not apply to Artsakh) that have declared and won their independence in a war that was forced upon them by Azerbaijan. It is the Artsakh-Armenians who occupy the liberated historic Armenian lands within Azerbaijan. Armenia has offered humanitarian aid and military assistance to the Artsakh-Armenians to prevent what would have been a bloodbath from the indiscriminate artillery fire and military operations of the Azeri military forces.
The Safarov Affair is another piece in the mosaic of injustices against our people perpetrated by Azerbaijan. Here was an opportunity for Yerevan to openly call for Artsakh’s recognition, but did not. And here was an opportunity for Armenian organizations to support, through competent and credible international experts, Artsakh’s right to be free and independent, but they did not.
Michael Mensoian
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Azerbaijan, expecting that Minsk Group get Artsakh from Armenians and hand over to tatar-turks peacefully, as uncle Joe did for them in 1930s. The Sultan of Azer Baboons living in his imagination, and his batteries powered by his oily generator, and does not understand that Earth circles around the sun. He still believe that sun circles around the Earth!! This will take some times until Sheikhdom people overthrow corrupted oil man!!
The intellectual dishonesty of this article is breathtaking. E.g., saying that Azerbaijan is occupying Shaumyan. A country cannot be said to occupy its own district, as recognized by international law. Shaumyan is PART of Azerbaijan for any and all international law. Just because you think X is yours, it does not make it so unless you have the current law behind your claim.
Secondly, you call Karabak a democratic state. Well, a democratic state does not evict 25% of its former residents based on nationality, and killing many, and taking over their houses, which it then offers to the members of its diaspora to populate (many of whom are descendents of Armenians who had lived very far away in Turkey and Middle East).
Thirdly, you say that Karabak is occupying Azeri territory, and not Armenia. Really? Do you honestly believe this? Do you believe that if Armenia was not around (together with its Russian alliance), that 150K residents of Karabak could stand to Azerbaijan’s 9 million? I bet you are a big fan of the 300 movie.
Also, do you really believe the world is buying the subterfuge about Karabak being an independent state? Does anyone believe that once Karabak becomes independent, it would not almost instantly unite with Armenia? Everybody, including the Minks group, knows that this right to self-determination gambit is a tactic for appearances. Otherwise, Armenians would have no legitimate claims to international law (not that this one is a strong on), other than a territorial claim against another UN member, which obviously is a big no in international law. Everybody plays along, but they all know the real thing: Armenia has a territorial claim against Azerbaijn (look, you yourself called Karabak a historical Armenian land, right? Is that not a territorial claim, whther true or not?).
But the biggest piece of dishonesty in this article is this … Claiming that Armenians are the peaceful ones, while Azeris are the warmongers. It is like this. You come and take over my house by force, killing some of my family members. You ALLEGE that the house belongs to your ancestors from 1000+ years ago, even though I have had the title to it for all the recent traceable history (e.g., as early as late XVIII century if was an Azeri king who signed the agreement with Russia taking over Karabak. If it was Armenains’ back then, what was Russia doing getting the signature from Azeris?). Now, ok, I negotiate with you through courts to try to get it back, offering to even give you LEGAL possession of a part of ths house, to no avail (Lachin). 20 years pass, nothing happens. You keep living in my house. I then say, well, you are leaving me with no choice but to use the SAME means as you did to take my house back (as the court has acknowledge is mine). And then you call me the warmonger … and point out that you are just living peacefully in my house. Amazing!
We could argue all day and year about who owned Karabak 300, 200, or 2000 years ago. Who knows, you might even be the right one about history. But that counts for nothing in international law. International law deals with what is in the book TODAY not what was ALLEGEDLY in the book 1000 years ago. And today, if you look at any maps or any international organization or law, Karabak is part of Azerbaijan. Then by law, whether you like it or not, you are the occupier, not us. The rest is not a fact but allegations and claims.
Kerim, Those are historical Armenian lands. Always have been. Stalin giving it to Azerbaijan doesn’t make it “your house”. In reality Turks are the occupiers. Your people came from the Asian foothills. Ask anyone under Ottoman occupation and they will say the same thing.Those are facts.
1300 year old Armenian head stones being destroyed? Why? So as to hide the evidence that Armenians were there WAY BEFORE any Turks possibly? Of course it is.
During the genocide the Armenians didn’t have the ability to protect themselves and were murdered off their own lands. This time they do. It was Azeri’s that started the war and then ran off like little girls. Armenians are not leaving.
Kerim, do You honestly believe, that “Azerbajdzhan” iz a legal country and is capable to withhold it’s grounds without Turkey?
Do You also believe that Kars treaty is internationaly recognized document? Do You realy believe that Armenia will keep this “treaty” forewer? And not withdraw from it and ratify Treaty of Sevres? Do You honestly believe that even one Armenian with or without weapon was ever scared from Turk or “azeri”-turks? Do You honestly believe that turks are capable to fight the Army and not the civilians? Children, women, old people?
What, in the world, are You talking about, from one topic to another? What You want Armenian to understand – that a Turk can be brave? My grandfather was a soldier and was fighting you guys. He was 7 times wounded in WWI, survived and told us a story of how your army was fleeing from Armenians with weapons. Because, you guys are not capable to fight the Army, the unit, one single Armenian – it is for lions – not jackals…
And do You realy believe, that panturkism is a not fascism?
recognition of Azeri lands by international community is not based on what land belongs to whom, it is based on a treaty of Kars signed which handed the land to Azeris. The international community has agreed to end wars in WWI and at the time that was what was important. They didn’t pay attention at Nakhijevans poppulation displacement which under the rule of Azeri leadership gradually drove Armenians out of their native lands and gradually destroyed Armenian cultural treasures to designate a self imposed history to those lands.
But, Azeris tried the same thing with Karabakh Armenians and that didn’t work. And the majority Armenian poppulation of Karabakh all throughout soviet rule is testimony to whome Karabakh belonged to really.
The evidence against Turks and Azeris and their dirty dids are there. It is a matter of time to question recognition lands and who really was were for thousnads upon thousnads of years and who popped up in the map in recent human history.
You keep on sheltering yourself under the blanket of internationl law and geographic recognition. Maybe thats what gives Aliev and his henchmen the liberty to decietfully take pleasure trying to hrass Armenia and Armenians in all fronts. That proves what kind of God he worship, which can be anything else accept God himself.
I don’t expect much from Azeri high command, because they are not the normal, constitutional, and honest high command that a legitamate government is suppose to be composed of. And Safarove’s pardoning is obvious prove to the rest of his minor to major sins he has commited against Armenia for the last 2 decades. I personally think for the crime Safarov commited, execution in Armenia is the punishment. But, not Safarov for the sake of higher justice. The true criminal who must be executed are the high commands who pardoned him.
kerim Agha, check Armenian Highlands instead of sending a long love letter, for us you will find your answer!! Our next goal is liberation of Nakhijevan, where Turkic tribes razed our monuments and cemeteries!! That one also given away by uncle Joe, in 1930s, where your KGB, Sultan Aliyev, oil and caviar sucker dynasty, born there!!
Your beloved Sheikhdom solution, will be resolved with real owners of the land, Persians and Armenians!! USSR and Stalin are dead, therefor any land give away to tatar turks, who created based on uncle Joe imagination is not valid any more, same as when Bolshevik and Lenin dealt with your big brother Turks, who gave away our Western part to turks, that is also part of Armenian Highland..one day we will get that stolen land as well!!
The reason you don’t see the real map, today, is all because of oil, where Sultan begging Google and paying billions to save Azer Babbons name on behalf of Armenians!! You guys should be proud of Armenians, at least because of us some people realize, there is a place with that strange name in that part of the world!!
Your Azerbaijan is a stolen name from ancient Persians Azerbaijan, where Iran’s ayatollahs have no power to claim, but soon they are gone your beloved Azerbaijan will be annexed with Southern part!!You can check my validity with those diaspora Persians who are living outside of Iran!!
John, what you say is an allegation. You THINK you owned the land BEFORE Stanlin “gave it to us”. Here are facts: In 1805, when the Russian monarch Alexander I, represented by the General Pavel Tsitsianov, signed a protecectorate agreement with Karabak, he signed it by Ibrahim Khalil Khan (Azeri), and recognized it as the sole rulers of the region. This is not what I or you think, but a historical document kept in Russian archives. There is no evidence whatsoever that the ARmenians took legal possesssion of this land between 1805 and 1920. I challenge you to produce any proof.
Now going beyond 1805, in the 15th century it was owned by Garay Goyunlyu and Ak Koyunlu, all of which are Turkic tribes. After that, the land was part of the Safavid dynasti, which is the first who coined the term Karabak Beylerbeyliyi (Black Garden kingdom), and all the way up till the aforementioned days. True, there were Armenian populations there during these times in part of Karabak, but there were NEVER the rulers of the land. The land was never theirs.
As to earlier than 15the century … well, does one really need to go beyond 600 years to base yoru allegations on? Ok, well, before than it was Persians, Albanians, and et al.
How is the above for a history lesson? But even if the above is all wrong, it still does not matter. Karabak is Azeri land according to current international lawy, and it has been it for at least hundreds of years.
Karabakh became a protectorate of the Imperial Russia by the Kurekchay Treaty, signed between Ibrahim Khalil Khan of Karabakh and general Pavel Tsitsianov on behalf of Tsar Alexander I in 1805, according to which the Russian monarch recognized Ibrahim Khalil Khan and his descendants as the sole hereditary rulers of the region
Kerim, what are you smoking? The Armenian meliks (princes) maintained full control over Artsakh until the mid-18th century even though nomadic Turkic (note: Turkic not Azeri) tribes intruded into the area in the 15th century from the Mongolian steppes. In the 18th century, Persia’s ruler Nader Shah placed Artsakh under his control and afterwards, as a result of internal conflicts between Armenian meliks, the Karabakh Khanate was formed. The Karabakh Khanate was Persia’s province, even though Ibrahim Khalil Khan was a Persian Azeri. Does his origin make Persia and Azeri nation-state, Kerim? There has never been such a thing as nation-state of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan was throughout histroy a Persian province until a makeshift state of Azerbaijan was created by the British and the Bolsheviks in 1918.
By the Kurekchay Treaty of 1805, signed between Ibrahim Khalil Khan representing a Persian protectorate of Karabakh at the time and General Tsitsianov representing Imperial Russia, Arstakh became a protectorate of Russia. After only 17 years, under the terms of the Treaty of Gulistan in 1823, Persia formally ceded Artsakh to the Russian Empire. The Karabakh Khanate was dissolved, and the area became part of the Elisabethpol province within the Russian Empire. After the transfer of the Karabakh Khanate to Russia, many Persian Azeris emigrated to Persia, while many Armenians emigrated from Persia to Karabakh.
Where in this sequence of historical events do you see a nation-state of Azerbaijan under which Artsakh was placed? You cling to the fact that Ibrahim Khalil Khan was ethnically an Azeri. Excuse me, he was a PERSIAN Azeri and the region was temporarily placed under the PERSIAN rule before it was incorporated into the Imperial Persia. Are you inventing history for your never-before-existed nation?
I meant “Imperial Russia”, of course, in the last paragraph of my post.
GB: “Our next goal is liberation of Nakhijevan, where Turkic tribes razed our monuments and cemeteries!! ”
Thank you very much for being Exhibit 1 for showing who the aggressor is. Imagine what you were saying was being aired at a UN session. A member country threatening to “liberate” (aka, use military force to murder and evict its current residents) a land the UN recognized as belonging to another member. You would be condemned as an aggressor in a hearbeat.
By the way, having a cemetery on a land does not make that land Armenian. Or, what, is Glendale too part of Ancient Armenia begging its long-lost sons Armenians to liberate it?
Kerim,
Ghareh Bagh and Nakhijevan taken away by Russian Empire from Persia by Treaty of Turkmenchay – read below for your information!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Turkmenchay
Azerbaijan was part of Iran’s Azerbaijan, there never been a independent country name as Azerbaijan, There was only Persia, Armenia, and Russian Empire!!
Turkic tribes were all over Caucasus from Central Asia with no official language or culture, those invaders not only destroyed Armenian heritage , they also Turkified Persian presence in Caucasus.
Persia lost Caucasus due to their weak corrupted Shahs!! This is why people in Azerbaijan don’t have a proper cultural and history like Armenians or Persians.
Your most famous poet in Azerbaijan were Persian speaking individuals like Nezami Ganjavi who spoke and write only Persian, adored his literature by Armenians and Persians, unfortunately you guys giving him Turkish name today. And I wonder how you people can change someone’s mother tongue and label him as Tatar-Turk!! You can read the history of Ganja also in internet, and you will surprise the people living there were Christian Armenians and Persians!!
It is unbelievable and Bizarre fake nation created in today’s republic of Azerbaijan, until 100 years ago you had Persian alphabets then changed to Cyrillic and now Sultan changed to Latin, where Armenia, Iran, Georgia, Russia, never change their history or culture, or rewrite a fake history for their own brainwashed people!!
Those tribes that you named in Persian called Agh Ghoyenghlu or Ghareh Ghoyenghlu tribes, they were from Central Asian steps, they came down with their herds and sheep and cattle, and camels, they settle down in in 13-th Century with Holacu Khan of Mongolia, they occupied Iran with the help of their kin, Osmani Turks against Persians, they also occupied Nakhijevan and GHREHBAGH.
Mongolian turkic tribes brought not only disaster against Persia, but also against Caucasian civilized native population, such as Arans, Tallish and mostly Armenians.
we are the only nation in South Caucasus survived as a nation and kept our heritage and culture and alphabets, the rest are all gone with the wind!!
Dear Kerim, we will survive for another millennium, and we will gain what ever we have lost to those barbarian invaders, this is our rights and no power can take this away again from Armenians!!Long live to Artsakhi Armenians!!
Oh, come on, Kerim. You know that there are just as many Azeris who claim Yerevan (and in some instances, even Kars!) are part of their “historic homeland.” Karabagh will remain under Armenian rule because its Armenian residents don’t want to end up like those cross stones in Nakhichevan, which would very likely happen under Azeri rule due to the extremely anti-Armenian conditioning of the population since the war.
“Condemned as an aggressor…” That doesn’t seem to stop Turkey from having their way with other countries and territories (Cyprus). Meaningless.
“having a cemetery on a land does not make that land Armenian.”
What does, according to the peculiar Azeri mentality? Historical records, maps, chronicles, perhaps? That the region was a part of proto-Armenian state of Urartu and was mentioned in Ptolemy’s Geography as Naxuana? That it then became part of the Satrapy (Monarchy) of Armenia under Achaemenid Persia in the 6th century BC? Does this make the land Armenian? Or maybe when the region became part of native Armenian dynasty of Orontids in the 3rd-2nd centuries BC? Or maybe when in the 2nd century BC Nakhichevan became part of the Kingdom of Armenia established by King Artaxias I? Or maybe when in the province of Gokhtan (modern-day Ordubad district), the Armenian scholar Mesrop Mashtots finished the creation of the unique Armenian alphabet and opened the first Armenian schools? Or maybe its very Armenian name that means “nakhnakan ichevan” or “first landing” referring to the descent of Biblical Noah’s Ark?
If a cemetery on a land does not make that land Armenian (and can be savagely destroyed by the Azeris), might the above historically recorded facts do?
Antichronologically to Kerim ,
Nakhijevan has been Armenian from the days that Noah Nahabet (after Deluge) set foot on it.Numerous churches monasteries were built there.My grandparents owned land and farmland and houses with huge gardens,there only 8 0 years or so ago..
They employed Azeri field workers and servants in theri house.I have photos of them that show Agulis,Garmir Vank(monastery) existed there before the azeri herdsmen trickled in by and by in search of work and made their homes there.
Always as farmland help or house help.Nakhijevan definitely has been Armenian land since very old times.
Same is true with Artsakh Oudik that though turco tatar. mogul seljuk hoards invaded it the KHAMSAI MELIKUTYUNNER..the(Khamsa arabic means ( FIVE Malak(princes) when the aforementioned attacked they fortified themselves in the Mountainous parts of it ARTSAKH-Nagornyii Karabagh and never surrendered to the hoards.
In Karabagh even today there are huge monasteries such as GANDZASAR, from 13th century,kHOJIVANK AND THE FIRST EVER cHRISTIAN mONASTERY THERE NAMED(IT ESCAPES ME NOW)..LATER WILL NAME IT.gO SEE THEM KERIM.I shall personally ask the pres. of NK to admit you to go and see and photograph these ,take them bakc to show to your Azeri people as PROOF,who have been there before.
if a khalil Khan or some such invaded and stayed there < FOR A WHILE THEN THE PERSIAN ONE,that did not make them owners of the lands..
Those monasteries plus JUST RECENTLY DISCOVERED RUINS OF TIGRANAKERT our King of Kings had built that town there over 1800 yrs ago…go learn histoy and see PHOTOS.
Spain was also for 600 YEARS UNDER KHALIPHATE RULE…
BUT THE SPANISH PRINCES UNITED AND DROVE THEM O U T!!!!!
There is one very important point that Kerim does not understand. Historical truth cannot be changed. Laws, in Turkey’s and Azerbaijan’s case, artificial and illegal “laws” can (and will) be changed.
I would say what’s “breathtaking” is the extent of the Turkish and Azeri THEFT of Armenian cultural identity.
Hagop, GB, you speak of history as if it is science. You know, in modern times, not even science is really that “science.” Quantum physics — they cannot even tell conclusively where a particle is — it all depends on the observer. So if the physics is perspective-dependent, don’t you think history is so too? You and I are both going to interpre history, selectively, the way it benefits our argument the best.
The truth is (in my humble opinion) is that the current territory of Karabak was, you are right, never really part of independent Azerbaijan OR ARMENIA (till 1920s, when it became part of Azerbaijan formally). Both countries were ruled, for thousands of years, by Persia, Russia, et al. Fortunately, none of this matters today from the perspective of international law. Karabak IS part of Azerbaijan, and Armenians are the aggressor. Granted, people who have been living in Stepanakert and other areas that were ARmenian before the conflict cannot be called occupiers. It is their land, on which they have lived for generations. The adjaced 7 districts, and the Azeri parts of Karabak, are however OCCUPIED (i.e., their inhabitatants have been killed and expelled, e.g., Shusha, Eskeran, Khodjali, etc).
Hagop, yes, there are Azeris who, referring to Wikiepdia, which states that “At the beginning of the 20th century, Yerevan city’s population was over 29,000, of which 49% were Azerbaijani Tatars, 48% Armenians and 2% Russians in 1902,” might say that Yerevan was Azeri land. But there would be very few Azeris who would say this, and mostly out of spite in response to the Armenian claims that OUR land is Armenian. The thing is, unlike with Armenian who lost their homelands in Turkey, we do not have the trauma of such a loss (except for Karabak). So we dont have the complex of “what is historically ours is lost.” For example, we do not arbitrarily choose a brief period in history when we had a large land (never mind that it was very short-lived), and call it OURs, and feel emotionally pained at having lost it.
And GB, you relying on Persian chauvnists on things Azeri is kind of like asking an Armenian nationalist on what they think about Azeris. Here is advice to you, as an experiment. Why don’t you keep talking to your PErsian friend well after he/she has claimed Azerbaijan a historical Persian land, get him a little drunk if you can, and soon he will say the same about Armenian and entire Caucasus. They think the whole place belonged to them before Russian stole it. Speaking of a complext, those guys have a major complex ever since losing that famous battle to the Greek 77,000 years ago. They still cannot get over it, and constantly feel the need to prove that they are a great nation with vast territories, including Caucasus (and not just Azerbaijan).
Ok, going back to Karabak, I think the only thing that would work, is to actually for Azerbaijan to recognize the independence of Karabak, but only within the borderd excluding the formerly Azeri-populated lands, and even give up a corridor land connecting Karabak to Armenia. It does not really matter who owned Stepanakert 100s of years ago. It has belonged to Armenians for generations. We Azeris feel no emotional or recent-historical connection with it. Why would Azeris agree to it? In exchange for getting back the Azeri territories. But of course, Armenians would never give those up either. They consider us a fake nation, and, “naturally”, consider what is ours theirs, minus what is due to the Persians.
And don’t you worry about those Persians (GB, you can tell your Persian friends this) … the chest table is being re-set. Soon, thanks to Israel and US, their “great” Persia would no longer be great after all. We Azeris are doing everything we can to help this outcome.
“If the physics is perspective-dependent, don’t you think history is so too? You and I are both going to interpret history selectively, the way it benefits our argument the best.”
This is called dilettantism, Kerim. History is a chronological record of events as affecting a nation often including an explanation of their causes. Got it? A RECORD, plenty of which testify to the fact that Arstakh was historically an Armenian land. Your humble opinion is sheer dilettantism and familiar cheap and unsubstantiated Azeri propaganda.
Records and chronicles show Artsakh as a province of the Kingdom of Armenia from 2nd century BC until the 4th century AD and afterwards an Armenian region in Christian Caucasian Albania from the 4th century to the 7th century. In 821, the region formed the Armenian principality of Khachen and around the year 1000 was proclaimed the Kingdom of Artsakh, which was one of the last medieval eastern Armenian kingdoms and principalities to maintain its autonomy following the Turkic and Mongol invasions of the 11th to 14th centuries.
I can understand you saying that Artsakh was never really part of independent Azerbaijan. But how, based on historical record, the region was never part of Armenia?
Kerim, can you only count from 1918 on when the artificial nation-state of Azerbaijan was created or your intellectual capabilities can allow you to count as far back as the 2nd century BC? Armenians can do this simple math very easily because millennia are part of our history. Why can’t Azeris count as far back? Because they’re a newly popped-up “nation”, aren’t they?
“Yerevan city’s population was over 29,000, of which 49% were Azerbaijani Tatars, 48% Armenians and 2% Russians in 1902”
Kerim, there was no such a thing then and even now as “Azerbaijani Tatars”. In 1902, before it, and up until 1918, all Muslims residing in the Transcaucasus, including the Erivan province, were called Caucasus Tatars or Caucasus Tartars or simply Muslims because they had no national identity. Ethnonym “Azerbaijanis” denoted PERSIAN Azerbaijanis, not Azerbaijanis of the republic as they’re called now after stealing the ethnonym from Persian Azerbaijan. For a brief period of time, there was a slight majority of Muslims in Erivan that was a provincial center of a Russian guberniya (province) not an ethnically Armenian province. Those Muslims included not only the Caucasus Tatars (your predecessors), but many Persians and Persian Azerbaijanis.
Does this make Erivan province a historically Azerbaijani (that is belonging to modern-day Azerbaijan) land? Aren’t you Azeris tired of your own makeshift stories and fairytales about your origin?
Kerim:
{“(till 1920s, when it became part of Azerbaijan formally)”}
Not true: did not become part of Azerbaijan either formally or informally.
Despite Azerbaijan Democratic Republic of 1918-1920 renouncing any claims to Nagorno-Karabagh, despite Azerbaijan SSR renouncing any claims to NK when Bolsheviks took over, Stalin, as Commissar of nationalities – on his own – decided to place NKAO under Azerbaijan SSR Administrative control, instead of Armenia SSR administrative control, as was previously agreed by all parties.
It was called NK Autonomous Objast for a reason.
Despite its population being 95% Armenian, despite the wishes of its Armenian inhabitants, Stalin – on his own – placed NKAO under Azerbaijan SSR Administrative control.
Under the supreme Federal supervision of USSR, Moscow.
Needless to say, AzeriTatarTurks immediately embarked on a campaign of oppression, discrimination and ethnic cleansing campaign against indigenous Armenians in NKAO. Moscow looked the other way.
It was partially successful: Armenians went from 95% of population in 1920s to 75% just before Independence was declared.
Sadly, AzeriTatarTurks successfully ethnically cleansed Armenians from Nakhichevan: from 50% in 1920s in went to 0% today.
Back to NKAO
On August 30, 1991 Azerbaijan SSR declared Independence from USSR.
On September 2, 1991 NKAO declared Independence. NKAO became NKR. Note that the day Azerbaijan SSR separated from USSR, its legal administrative mandate to govern NKAO ended. Full stop.
Shortly after NKR declared independence, Azerbaijan launched a full scale war of illegal invasion. Who did you say was the ‘aggressor’ ?
Regarding: {“ Fortunately, none of this matters today from the perspective of international law. Karabak IS part of Azerbaijan, and Armenians are the aggressor.”}
There is no such thing: you are quoting only one part of the UN Charter that concerns the so-called Territorial Integrity of a State. (I will explain why ‘so-called’ below).
You, and Azeri leadership, conveniently leave out the part about Self Determination:
UN Charter [PART 1 Article 1 All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. ].
NKR Armenians invoked the Self Determination clause: a human being’s God given right of self determination is superior to any so-called rights of a man-made creation such as a State.
Regarding:
{“ Ok, going back to Karabak, I think the only thing that would work, is to actually for Azerbaijan to recognize the independence of Karabak, but only within the borderd excluding the formerly Azeri-populated lands, and even give up a corridor land connecting Karabak to Armenia. “}
You and Azeri leadership keep singing the same lame song: you guys are offering NKR Armenians far less than they already have today.
You expect them to go back in time for nothing ?
Recognize their Independence ? Who cares: they already are independent.
Land corridor ? NKR had that situation already: Azerbaijan tried to choke the life out it, and almost succeeded. No thanks.
Armenians can never trust AzeriTatarTurks to keep their word on any agreement: as long as Azerbaijan exists as a State, it will try to wipe out NKR.
Without NKR, RoA cannot exist for long. So, the solution to our dilemma is crystal clear.
Finally: why ‘so-called’ ?
Because nobody cared about International Law or the Territorial Integrity of Serbia, when Kosovo, a historic Serbian province was taken away by force.
Albanians, who had migrated into Kosovo over centuries and had displaced the native Serbs, asserted their right to be independent.
So, what is the difference between Kosovo and NKR ?
That is why it is ‘so-called’.
Avery, your maximalist position is very short-sighted. Yes, you do have a corridor in Lachin. Yes, you do have the territories you need, and more. But what you dont have is permanent peace and security. I am amazed how you fail to see the value of that. It is irrationally reckless of Armenians like you to believe that the status quo in its current form will continue for a long time. The time is on the side of Azerbaijan. Even your leadership recognizes it. The fact is, the Azerbaijan you defeated in 1990s (i.e., a country without a functioning government, devastated economy after the collapse of USSR) is NOT the same Azerbaijan you face today. To deny this is to deny reality. Arrogance and hubris do sometime make people misread realty. And you appear guilty of that. You seem to have this idea that ARmenian fighters are somehow superhuman, a la the movie 300. But at the end of the day, in modern warware, the weapons matter a lot. Azerbaijan spends more arms thatn the entire state of ARmenia. You can ignore this fact only at your own peril.
The only reason why Azerbaijan has not started attempting to take back its land is Russia. Do you disagree with this? Your government does not seem so, becasuse they have conceded their indepdence by sighning a miitary base agreement with Russia and giving up strategic assets to Russia. Russia essentially own you now. That is a very dear price to pay for your status quo, don’t you think?
As for the stretch in logic to which you resort to “claim” that Karabak is not legally part of Azerbaijan … it is just that … a stretch. After all, the entire body of international law, as enshrined in numerous UN documents, calls Karabak an Azeri territory. UN versus Avery ..
John says: “This is called dilettantism, Kerim. History is a chronological record of events as affecting a nation often including an explanation of their causes.”
John, a fancy word in an accusation is no proof of merit. I will use a less fancy one then. Your conception of History is a naive. History is not objective. Everybody knows it — hate to break it to you though.
E.g., if you read Russian history, Mongoliasn were extermely evil, almost Satanicly so. Why, you ask? Well, because Mognolians vanquished them pretty badly. But in the same books, the Russian conqeuests of other nations are celebrated as transmissions of enllightenment, etc. Examples from this forum: you guys glibly mention, well, that Azeri king who signed the agreement with Russians as a representive owner of Karabak was actually a Persian Azeri. Persian Azeri??? It is like saying French German. He was an Azeri. There is no such thing as Persian Azeri. Also, you guys just glibly mention Albanians, well, Albanians were not really Azeri ancestors, because they were Christian. Really? What, were Azeris supposed to be moslim before Islam’s emergence? Oh, well, those Azeris who claim ALbanians as their ancestors, they are lying, it is all propaganda. What, are you saying, don’t trust your books but tryst ours, because ours are more objective? Says who? Your books say so, right? It is pretty circular reasoning, if you ask me. The thing is neither your nor our books are objective. They were both written and are being interpreted by humans, who are by defintiion are subjective.
Just read some of these posts here. “Proto-ARmenians” owned Nakchivan. Oh, we are sorry. Ok, just give me 24 hours to vacate the house my great grandfather and his great-grandfather lived in, and I will give you the keys, you who claim to be the descendants of these mysterious noble Proto-Armenians. And we will even pay you rent for the hundreds if not thousands of years we have lived there. Sorry.
Well, at a particular arbitrary time you choose in history, it was part of Armenian kingdom. You know what, there are probably at least two dozen nations who have owned that land in the last 5 thousand years. Why do you select the time slot most advantagous for you?
Nevertheless, even you are right, what happened 5000 years ago has no bearing whatsoever upon current international law. I bet you that if you put this statement to vote, 99% of the world population would agree with this common-sensical statement.
None of this changes this fact: according to CURRENT international norms and mores, Nakchivan is part of Azerbaijan, and has been for a very very long time.
I mean, it is just amazing … how can you fail to see that you are the aggressive one in the region. Think of your neigborhood. What would most of your neigbors think of you if you kept talking like this about their property? You have your eyes on your neigbors houses.
And it is funny, because most of you are sitting somewhere far away, in CA or NJ, and daydreaming. In the meantime, the trend is not towards Greater Armenia, but Smaller Armenia and even Bygone Armenia. Only about 2 million of you are left in the region. There are 9 million Azeris in Azeri republic, and about 16 million in Iran. 25 million of Azeris, and 2 million of you. You can see where this is leading, especially given the current emigration trends in Armenia. Very soon, this entire conversation will be a historical discussion. Then you can talk all you want how owned the land for thousands of years. Because 50 years from now, there will be very few Armenians left there to own anything. Without a war or anything. Just emigration alone will take care of it. We can wait.
History is not objective, asserts Kerim the Azeri. That’s why his newly-cooked nation of “Azerbaijanis” may turn and twist the chronological record of eventsand their description (i.e. histroy) the way they like. When a nation has no history they invent it. It goes like this: ”whatever you Armenians will say, we Azeris will put it upside down, because don’t you naïve Armenians know that history is not objective?”
Kerim, you don’t even bother to notice that throughout this thread I constantly mention ancient records, tablets, chronicles, maps, etc., many of them written by non-Armenian historians, geographers, travelers, etc. This is not “you say one thing we say the opposite” or “your books vs. my books” thing. These are factual records that can be found in world libraries, archives, and other repositories. Some can even be found on the Internet. Have you ever looked into non-Armenian records or all you can see is your books?
There is no such thing as Persian Azeri? Excuse me?! There has always been such a thing as Persian Azerbaijan, a historical province belonging to Parthia/Persia. Armenians called it “Atrpatakan” in antiquity. And now you pop up and tell us a fable that there has never been Persian Azerbaijan? Based on your books, Kerim?
Caucasian Albania. Existed from the 4th century BC to the 8th century AD. Known in Parthian as “Ardhan” and in Middle Persian as “Arran”; in Arabic as “ar-Rān”; and in Old Armenian as “Aghuank”. An originally Zoroastrian state turned into Christian in the 4th century AD. Your Turkic Seljuk and Mongolian nomads intruded our region from Central Asia only in 11th-13th centuries AD. Have you sanity at all? Are all Azeris so narrow-minded or you just happen to be one of the kind?
By referring to “proto-Armenians” and then Armenian kingdoms owning Nakhichevan and that the original name of the region comes from Armenian for “first landing” that refers to the landing of Noah’s Ark (a Biblical, hardly a Turkic event), I meant to retort your childish observation that “having a cemetery on a land does not make that land Armenian”. Do historical records of ancient Armenian presence in the region make the land Armenian? Or you think, just like your Turkish ilk, that the land belongs to those who currently own it as a result of invasions and forceful settlement?
You don’t have to pay me rent for the hundreds if not thousands of years you have lived because you haven’t lived for thousands of years. Stop portraying your 95-years old nation (from 1918 on) as old as ancient inhabitants of the region. Have decency. In fact, I don’t expect anything good from the Azeris after what you’ve done in Sumgait , Baku, Kirovabad, and Maragha and to the medieval Armenian cross-stones (khachkars) in Nakhichevan. These acts only show your true face. Kerim, is 95 years a “very very long time”? I bet, only for an Azeri it is. No history. No national identity.
Nakhichevan was not Armenian kingdom at a “particular arbitrary time”. I haven’t chosen only one kingdom. I showed you that there were several Armenian royal dynasties owning the land. If my selection was arbitrary, show me one case (except for modern-day Republic of Azerbaijan) when Nakhichevan was an Azerbaijani land? Don’t mix it with Persian Azerbaijan this time. Even before being incorporated into your makeshift republic, the population of the region was about 51 percent Armenian. How many Armenians are there in Nakhichevan today as a result of “civilized” Azeri policies towards ethnic minorities?
If you think what happened throughout 5000 years ago has no bearing upon current situation, then stop spewing rubbish about the land not being Armenian. Your possession by default, as a result of one man’s decision to give Nagorno-Karabakh and Nakhichevan to newly-cooked Azerbaijan Soviet Socialist Republic, does not make modern-day Azerbaijanis historical or ancestral owners of that land.
Armenians are not aggressors. We’re not invading the lands of other peoples as your nomadic Turkic predecessors did. We’re not clinging to lands that were unlawfully transferred to Armenia. We don’t want other peoples’ property. We talk about OUR ancestral lands stolen from us as a result of genocide or transferred to others as a result of illegal unilateral decisions. What is so hard to understand?
And go funny your funny “nation”. When you were 7 mln and Artsakhi Armenians just 150,000, you miserably lost. We’ve been on our lands for millennia and despite genocide, forced deportations, massacres, and pogroms by you, loathed TurkoAzeris, we still exist. And will exist. If you think a new war will be a light stroll for you, go start one. But don’r regret afterwards…
Kerim Khan, when I read your comments and “number” signs, I just laugh, you know why, because it seems to me that you are a brain washed tatar like your Sultan of oil, blowing his horn for his faithful audience and asking for mental help!!! Armenians are all over the world…unlike AW we are not in US base only, like myself!!!!
People like you, always miscalculate about us, at least your Sultan admit, that tatar turks, number one enemy are “diaspora Armenians” you know why he said that??because we have the brain and natural intelligence and will work base on our past experience. You should blame your big brother Turkey, that why they took our homeland and made us homeless!
Most Armenians including Artsakhi (NKR) Armenians waiting for you guys for a nice pleasant surprise!! Armenians are very good in commence and economy, we can spend petrodollars wisely, for our own people, therefor those pipe lines will be very good income resources, for Artsakhi Armenians!. We can make much better deals with outside world and we won’t get involved with fake statue erection, businesses!!
GB, I am sorry you have a problem with numbers.
I guess that explains why you guys so grossly overestimate your greatness.
Remember: X is not yours unless you get to keep it. Just because you have won the first round of a game, it does not mean you have won the whole thing.
Someone here said: Azeris are sour losers. They lost and they should get over it.
How silly. We are not talking about some silly soccer game. You have taken over oour homes. And you can rest assured that you will not live in them in peace. We may or may not lose the second round too. Who knows. But one thing is known for sure: there will be a second round. And the enemy you face today is not the same enemy you faced in 1990s.
Besides, speaking of not getting over a loss … it is a funny advice coming from an Armenian.
Kerim,
There will not be any second war between Armenia/NKR and Axerbaijan. If there is going to be war Russia, Iran, Israel, US and many more will be involved. You dream of not only about getting NKR, but also big chunk of Iran. Your only hope is that US and Israel will start war with Iran and you will use that situation to attack NKR and Armenia. In that case Russia will be involved.
You think that people who invested billions of dollars in your oil industry are going to let you start a war? What is going to happen to all those pipelines? When your oil fields will be dried up, then you will be allowed to start a war. I guess we should wait another 20 something years for that to happen. But, then you will be too poor without all that petrodollars. Until then you can dream of second war.
Kerim,
Your comments struck me as childish.
You want a second war. It is clear if you win that will be the end, but for the argument’s sake let’s assume that you will not win the second round. Then what? Are you going to say the second war is not the end we want third one? Then forth? Then fifth? How many wars do you need to be finally done? Until you get the NKR? Let’s say you got the NKR, what are you going to do with the Armenian population there? They do not want to live with Azeris. Are you going to kill them, “deport (death-match)” them to Armenia or to nearby Syrian deserts like your Turkish brothers did in 1915? I am sure if can open a corridor to Nachijevan, your Turkish brothers will let you use their territory to reach Syrian deserts.
You claim that Armenians took your homes. Firstly, all those houses that AzeriTurks have left behind have been severely bombed. If an Armenian family wants to take it they have to do a major reconstruction/renovation work. Some Armenians, indeed, took some of those bombed houses, renovated/reconstructed them and made it their home. FYI, among them are also Armenians who ran for their lives from Baku and Sumgait leaving their apartments and houses behind.
Now, let’s talk about homes that Armenians left behind in Baku and Sumgait and you took over. Those homes are ready for a family to settle. My first question is why you do not mention that you took over them or you do not mention it at all? And the second one is why not to give them to your refuges? I know why your government is not doing it… But, for God’s sake why, you as an individual, cannot behave a little bit humane? It is not going to cost you anything, just try it, in fact, you may like it.
Kerim,
Axerbaijanis are Turkified ethnic Persians. They are not a unique nation. Those Axerbaijanis living in Iran are Iranian nationals and the majority of them despise the Axerbaijanis of the former Soviet Union. They don’t consider Axerbaijanis in the Axerbaijani republic as their brethren but rather they consider them as backstabbing trouble makers and separatists. There are seven million Axerbaijanis in Axerbaijani republic and some 25% of them live and work in Turkey and the Russian federation. That leaves about five million.
What you don’t understand about Armenians is the fact that Armenian Diasporas exist around the world because of the genocidal Turks who killed and forced Armenians out of their homeland to create what is called the republic of Turkey today. The fact that some Armenians live and work outside Armenia, as do Axerbaijanis of Axerbaijani republic, does not mean they have abandoned Armenia. Our homeland has the full support of all ten million Armenians worldwide regardless of where they happen to be living. We are all citizens of our homeland and when it comes to dealing with our enemies we are all united as one just like we were in the Karabakh liberation war and fought side by side our Armenian brothers there. You have alot to learn about the Armenians and you will in due time.
As far as the liberated Armenian territory of Karabakh and the occupied Armenian territory of Nakhichevan is concerned, as they say, we got one done and we have one to go. Karabakh is now in the hands of its true Armenian owners and nurturers and it is flourishing. Nakhichevan has no choice but to follow. It will be liberated sooner or later. This is no game with multiple rounds. You got knocked out in the Karabakh liberation war and the Axerbaijani illegal hold on Karabakh ended for good. In fact, this illegal hold on Karabakh imposed on Armenians in 1921 ended as soon as the Soviet Union broke up but unfortunately we had to go to war with Axerbaijanis to make it official.
Rest assured the enemy you face today is not the volunteer militia units that fought and handed you a humiliating defeat in the 90s either. You have ZERO chance otherwise you would have tried it long time ago. I mean how many more years of petrodollars do you Axerbaijanis need to grow some balls? It is really embarrassing. Axerbaijanis are like drums that make alot of noise but they are hollow inside. A prime example of this is the draft-dodging coward turned into war-mongering gangster oil sheikh Ilham Aliyev who was in hiding during the Karabakh liberation war when all present and former Armenian presidents and ministers were fighting on the front lines as soldiers and commanders.
Talk is cheap, put up or shut up.
” it is to their benefit to prevent a resurgent Turkey, most likely supported by the United States and possibly Israel, to dominate this strategic region.”
Has Professor Mensoian been paying attention for the past ten years? Since Erdung took over Turkey in 2002, Turkey-Israel relations have very much deteriorated. In fact, Turkey has threatened war against Israel and has joined Israel’s Arab enemies, as in the Mavi Marmara incident. What interest would Israel have in helping to expand Turkish influence??
John says: “In fact, I don’t expect anything good from the Azeris after what you’ve done in Sumgait , Baku, Kirovabad, and Maragha and to the medieval Armenian cross-stones (khachkars) in Nakhichevan. These acts only show your true face.”
Such generalizations … I am sorry, but I cannot take seriously any mind that is capable of such broad narrowness, for the lack of a better word. It is like arguing with a pre-recorded greeting. Nothing good to come from an Azeri? Nothing at all? Why? And you views on history … Did any of what you said about Albanians make any sense? I am afraid so. If your statement was on an LSAT test or any IQ test, the question right underneath it would be: “Identify the assumptions the writer makes without argumentation?” And the answer would be: “The writer assumes that nations do not evolve and assimilate.” So, what, Albanians cannot turn into modern Azeris, but Urartians can turn into Armenians?! See what I mean by subjectivity of historical interpreation? I am sorry it all flies over your head.
And note how I am addressing you individually and not Armenians as a nation. A self-respecting debater does not fall into such silly fallacies as blind generalizations.
Sella, you call me childish, but yet you use such silly hateful things as calling Azerbaijan Axerbaijan. You know, name-calling is hardly the trapping of a grown-up.
You are too rash to think that Russia would definetely jump in to protect Armenian. Of course, they woud like and prefer to. But there is a price to everything. I doubt that Russia would risk a world-war over a tiny country like Azerbaijan.
Yes, we do expect a payback from the West and Israel for our support of their upcoming invasion. I.e., either help us over Karabak or at least make Russia stand aside. Note that losing Karabak to Azerbaijan does not necessarily equal in Russia’s mind a loss of foot-hold in Caucaus. If anything, Armenia would even be more dependent on Russia in case of a defeat in Karabak. So I am a Russian, if the price of intervention is too high in Karabak, then I might as well stand aside or not do too much.
You also say: “How many wars do you need to be finally done? Until you get the NKR? Let’s say you got the NKR, what are you going to do with the Armenian population there? They do not want to live with Azeris. Are you going to kill them, “deport (death-match)” them to Armenia …?”
Well, did these question not cross the minds of Armenian military before they launched an offensive against the seven Azeri districts with over total poulation of 600,000 Azeris? We are going to treat the situation as you did. We do not plan to kill any civilians like you did in Khodjali, Susha, etc. We will let them live as part of Azerbaijan, as Talish, Lezghi and other minorities do. But if they want to live in Armenia as their right to self-determination, that would be fine too.
You also, say how many wars before it ends? Well, you should have asked this question before you took over land. The answer to your question: howmanyever we need to in order to take back our land.
Kerim, go tell that to the Azeris who call Armenians slaves, Gaymenians, etc… The Azeris are launching a campaign of hatrate towards Armenians. The least we can do is to continue striking back, so you know we will fight back if that day comes.
Stella and other Armenians were forced to come up with words to describe Azeries in response to Azeri priemptive insults on Armenians. Even Turks are more respectful and understandable that majority of Azeris who I have read their comments on social networks.
Also, there is a trend in Azeris claiming Armenian music and other cultural aspects to be Azeri. This is pure justification and furthering turkic invasion I assume on the caucases which is still being sought by Azeris.
On the top of that, all these are fueled by your leader Aliev, who has deliberately masterminded the teaching of nationalistic anti-Armenian sentiment to the yought who were born after the war and have no idea of its history. And today these yought are thinking more about hurting Armenians and destroying Armenian history within Azeri controlled areas than anything else.
So, if there is a word I would use to describe Azerbaijan, the best fitting is HATE.
Kerim,
“Sella, you call me childish, but yet you use such silly hateful things as calling Azerbaijan Axerbaijan. You know, name-calling is hardly the trapping of a grown-up.”
Strongly disagree. A country that pardons the convicted axe-murderer and makes him a national hero deserves to be called Axerbaijan. And no, it is not about your president, we have seen the huge Axeri crowd following your axe-murderer, taking photographs with him, letting their children to be pictured with him, giving him flowers, hugging and kissing him. This stain will stay on your nation forever.
I did not call you childish, but your comments. Why? Because like a child who keeps asking to play more when the game is clearly over, you keep threatening us with a second war on the Armenian Weekly pages when your country was begging to sign a ceasefire 20 years ago. If you want to start a war just start, no need to threaten us for 20 years with the second year. Please, more actions, less talk. If you start a war we are not going to sit around and watch you kill us, but will mobilize all our efforts in Artsakh, Armenia and Diaspora-men, women, young and elderly will arm and fight for our homeland. We lost enough of our homeland to Turks, we cannot afford loosing more to new Turks.
recognition of Azeri lands by international community is not based on what land belongs to whom, it is based on a treaty of Kars signed which handed the land to Azeris. The international community has agreed to end wars in WWI and at the time that was what was important. They didn’t pay attention at Nakhijevans poppulation displacement which under the rule of Azeri leadership gradually drove Armenians out of their native lands and gradually destroyed Armenian cultural treasures to designate a self imposed history to those lands.
But, Azeris tried the same thing with Karabakh Armenians and that didn’t work. And the majority Armenian poppulation of Karabakh all throughout soviet rule is testimony to whome Karabakh belonged to really.
The evidence against Turks and Azeris and their dirty dids are there. It is a matter of time to question recognition lands and who really was were for thousnads upon thousnads of years and who popped up in the map in recent human history.
To Kerim:
you and many Azeris keep on sheltering yourself under the blanket of internationl law and geographic recognition. Maybe thats what gives Aliev and his henchmen the liberty to decietfully take pleasure trying to hrass Armenia and Armenians in all fronts. That proves what kind of God he worship, which can be anything else accept God himself.
I don’t expect much from Azeri high command, because they are not the normal, constitutional, and honest high command that a legitamate government is suppose to be composed of. And Safarove’s pardoning is obvious prove to the rest of his minor to major sins he has commited against Armenia for the last 2 decades. I personally think for the crime Safarov commited, execution in Armenia is the punishment. But, not Safarov for the sake of higher justice. The true criminal who must be executed are the high commands who pardoned him.