Lies, Damned Lies, and Billboards

Posters that warned “Don’t be deceived by Armenian lies!” were placed throughout Istanbul during the week leading up to the Feb. 26 protest in Taksim Square, held to commemorate the 20th anniversary of Khojali.

“Today Taksim, tomorrow Yerevan, we will suddenly descend upon you one night”

Who organized the event? Who financed it? Why was it being held now, all of a sudden, after 20 years of silence about Khojali in Turkey?

Apparently, for answers, one must go back quite some time, all the way to 1915. Yes, 1915, a date dreaded by Turks, a date Armenians spread lies about non-stop—lies that most of the world outside of Turkey believe, and that, even worse, many Turks within have also started to believe. These lies have got to be stopped before it is too late, before more Turks are deceived by the Armenians, before the upcoming 100th commemoration—in 2015—of the 1915 events.

Until recently, if you spread these lies in Turkey you were labeled a “traitor,” convicted for “insulting Turkishness,” jailed and beaten. If you happened to be named Hrant Dink, you were silenced with a bullet to the back of your head. But many Turks have now started to believe these lies, and have started to empathize with the Armenians, with Hrant, even carrying signs declaring, “We are all Armenians, We are all Hrant.”

Just a month ago, when the trial of Hrant’s murderers ended with a cover-up, when the presiding judge declared that there was “no evidence of organized murder, even though I sense there is a deep organization behind the murder,” some traitorous Turks poured into the streets carrying the dreaded signs that declared they were “all Armenian, all Hrant,” and demanding justice, demanding the state face its past.

In the meantime, the French, who have believed the Armenian lies for a long time, went one step further a month ago when they passed a law that would punish anyone who denied these lies. In fact, a Turkish minister, ironically the one responsible for European Union accession talks, decided to challenge this law by declaring that there was never an Armenian Genocide. He got into some trouble with the Swiss authorities, who continue to believe the lies.

The time had come, therefore, for the “real” Turks to act, to show the “traitorous” Turks—and the rest of the world—that they would not be deceived, that only they knew the truth, and that they would make sure the Armenians stopped lying and learned the truth, or else…

And the posters came out on Feb. 26 in Taksim Square, in central Istanbul, with the following humane messages addressed to the Armenians and traitorous Turks:

“You are all Armenians, you are all Bastards”

“Today Taksim, tomorrow Yerevan, we may suddenly come there one night”

“Grey Wolves are here, where are the Hrants?” (The grey wolf is a symbol of the ultra-nationalist Turks)

“Grey wolf Ogun” (referring to Hrant’s killer)

“Grey wolf Catli” (referring to the mobster ordered by the Turkish state to go after ASALA)

“Hrant’s bastards cannot scare us”

“Agri Mountain [Mount Ararat] will be your graves”

“Let Armenia be wiped out”

The French were also remembered, as rolls of toilet paper marked “Sarkozy toilet paper” were distributed to the protesting crowds. And yes, there were also some messages about the Azeri Khojali victims. But it was apparent that the crowds were more pre-occupied with the Armenians and traitorous Turks, their 1915 stand, and their grief over and demands for justice for Hrant. The Khojali incident was just the instrument to vent their hatred and anger.

The event could have been regarded as routine, as just another spontaneous anti-Armenian hate show so common among the Turkish people, brainwashed with the racist Ittihadist ideology for several generations. Usually, however, the elite “brainwashers” stay hidden behind the curtain during these events. On Feb. 26, they did not see the need to hide. The governor of Istanbul attended the event, and it became clear that the expensive posters placed throughout Istanbul—on prominent city-owned billboards and subway stations—were subsidized by the government, using taxpayer money, including that of the Armenian community of Istanbul.

But even more remarkable was the presence of the Turkish minister of interior, who was at the front of the rally, instigating hatred and discrimination through his statements. After defining Armenians as “blood suckers” and “heartless, pitiless murderers,” he continued, “The spilled Azeri blood is Turkish blood, and as long as the Turkish nation lives, we will seek revenge for this spilled blood.” Remembering the true objective of the event, he announced that “the Turkish nation has absolutely nothing to be ashamed of in its history, not in Turkey, not in the Balkans, Azerbaijan, or Kazakhstan!” Apparently, while Prime Minister Erdogan insists on an historical commission to investigate 1915, and the U.S. State Department parrots the same position, the minister of interior already knows the truth and has announced the conclusion of the investigation.

It seems that the ever-changing state policy on how to deal with the 1915 events is changing once again. The official position over the past 90 years has moved from complete silence, to theses that “Armenians never lived in Turkey” (or “Armenians massacred Turks,” or “Armenians and Turks killed each other during the war,” or “Armenians were only deported on the eastern war front,” or “Armenians died of hunger and disease”), to the latest thesis: “Armenians committed genocide.” Of course, the other new thesis is that “the French also committed genocide.” But there is also an official policy that does not seem to be changing, no matter who controls the government—the state or deep state, military or civilian, left or right, Ittihadist or nationalist, secular or moderate Islam—and that is: “We killed in the past. If necessary, we will kill again.” If Erdogan is serious about showing that his regime is different from his predecessors’, he will have to start by asking for the resignation of his interior minister.

Raffi Bedrosyan

Raffi Bedrosyan

Raffi Bedrosyan is a civil engineer, writer and a concert pianist, living in Toronto. Proceeds from his concerts and CDs have been donated to the construction of school, highways, and water and gas distribution projects in Armenia and Karabakh—projects in which he has also participated as a voluntary engineer. Bedrosyan was involved in organizing the Surp Giragos Diyarbakir/Dikranagerd Church reconstruction project. His many articles in English, Armenian and Turkish media deal with Turkish-Armenian issues, Islamized hidden Armenians and history of thousands of churches left behind in Turkey. He gave the first piano concert in the Surp Giragos Church since 1915, and again during the 2015 Genocide Centenary Commemoration. He is the founder of Project Rebirth, which helps Islamized Armenians return to their original Armenian roots, language and culture. He is the author of the book "Trauma and Resilience: Armenians in Turkey - hidden, not hidden, no longer hidden."
Raffi Bedrosyan

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261 Comments

  1. how do we counteract these lies, it almost seems impossible. how does 10 million armenians worldwide fight these second rate citizens. we need governments, lawyers, money, demonstrations and determination.
    that’s quite a load.

    • We don’t need any thing to do
      every person on this Earth
      knows who are the Armenians
      and who are the turks…
      They left every where in mess for 500 years…
      Every one knows that they are killers betrayers…
      No one will be believe them…

      Sylva

    • Tom.. i am sorry to say but where is the shame in saying the following:

      You are all Armenians, you are all Bastards”

      “Today Taksim, tomorrow Yerevan, we may suddenly come there one night”

      “Grey Wolves are here, where are the Hrants?” (The grey wolf is a symbol of the ultra-nationalist Turks)

      “Grey wolf Ogun” (referring to Hrant’s killer)

      “Grey wolf Catli” (referring to the mobster ordered by the Turkish state to go after ASALA)

      “Hrant’s bastards cannot scare us”

      “Agri Mountain [Mount Ararat] will be your graves”

      “Let Armenia be wiped out”

      Calling them second rate citizens is much better than any other names that come to mind… please get off your dream world and know that Turkish govt is breeding monsters if not stopped…

    • Tom writes: Your problem is that you refer to humans as second rate citizens…shame on you

      oh Tom…the Turks regarded the Armenians as second-rate citizens (or perhpas not even human) and to read some of the later comments many still do, they also called them ‘dogs’ which isn’t any compliment…I’ll leave out the ‘shame on you’…

  2. In the 1930’s there were good Germans. There were indifferent Germans who did nothing, and there were Nazis.

    Turkey also has these layers.

    Does anyone doubt that many/most want us dead and most of the rest are indifferent?

    The state pretends it is shocked at the racist comments. Tip of the old iceberg.

    • @ Jda,

      In 1930’s there were good Germans muted by bad Germans, as…
      In 1915’s there were also good Turks muted by bad Turks, as…
      In 2012’s there are still the same bad Turks muting good Turks!

      And you’re right:
      Turkish state is the main operator behind all such events.
      Others may appreciate Turkish karma, but we know what lies behind Turkish smiles.

    • Enough of us do not understand, and I often forget to remember, that a whole lot of people in that country, and in its Diaspora, want us all dead.

      1923-now is just a 7th Inning Stretch to these people, by whom I do not mean all or even mostTurks.

      Let’s give them a good surprise.

  3. Interesting how in 1915 an infamous Minister of the Interior was the architecht of the Genocide and now in 2012 Turkey’s Minister of Interior still feels the same way

    • @ Sevag

      It was not a coincidence, but a deliberate choice by Turkish government to deliver the same feelings!

      The genocider did it on purpose, but:

      Did our community leaders (in the US) decipher the message for hypocrite Obama & Clinton???

    • Hi Murat,

      Don’t you think it’s a bit unsettling that the government is encouraging and supporting these ultra-nationalists, as the article pointed out?

      And what’s worse, instead of condemning these ultranationalists, “progressive” Turks like yourself use the perverse logic, “Armenians better not say anything, in order not to provoke them!”

    • Armenian Nationalists have held many protests and made many public comments. They have never been one of using racist terms against the Turkish people (for example ‘bastards’), they haven’t threatened to ‘suddenly come one night’ to Ankara or Istanbul, and they haven’t said mocked Turks saying ‘[your national symbol] (Ararat for Armenians) will be your grave’

    • That is the difference between ARmenians and Turks IObserve jan.. hence when Turks with blunt lies accuse ARmenians as agressors and Genocide perpetrators, let the world see who is doing what and who is capable of such acts… .

    • What government encouragement? How did you reach that conclusion? It says MHP, a nationalist party, barely able to get seats in the parliament. They are the opposition fyi.
      By the way, how often we hear, right here, that “Western Armenia” should be returned to Armenians and Mongolians should go home? Racist slogans were widely condemned by many in Turkey, including various ministers.

    • “What government encouragement? How did you reach that conclusion?”

      Um…can you not read? The Minister of the Interior was present and made a speech at this ceremony. The Governor of Istanbul was present. But alas, you prefer willful ignorance.

      “Racist slogans were widely condemned by many in Turkey, including various ministers.”

      Haha, nice. Yes, after 10 days there was halfhearted condemnation. If the Turkish government were sincere, it would have condemned the racist slogans IMMEDIATELY the next day and moreover FIRED the Minister of the Interior for having participated.

  4. AW admin SUCKS!

    How dare you publish Turkish insults in Armenian publication, and delete an Armenian natural response to it!

    You really suck!

    • Allowing my criticism doesn’t replace my prior comment!
      You rather have not deleted my previous comments!

    • What is wrong with you AW admin??????????????????????

      Why did you not publish my comment? Did I use any bad words???
      Is telling the truth about who the real bastards are and how it is so sounds too sensetive for you?

  5. This article shows that Armenians are worried now that the Turks are awakening about Armenian lies. Sarkozy did a good job by attracting attention to this issue. Now, the Turks are taking necessary measures. That is what it is.

    Dont forget armenians! A bicycle can not tow an SUV. All you can do is to push the pedal harder. all we do is just shift to one!

    • @ Ahmet,

      You didn’t grasp the writer’s intent!
      Or you intentionally twisted the meaning of this article!
      In either case:

      This article is not about Armenians being worried about Turkish awakening, but is about Turkish government worrying about its own people’s awakening about their brutal past history!

      Next, Turkish jockes or proverbs don’t make any sense in English!
      Have heard this one?
      You can run, but you can’t hide!
      97 years on running, but Turkey can’t never hide!

    • True idiotic comment by a true ignorant denialist.. did not expect anything more than this nonsense.. it is hysterical to say the least.. now it is proven that the brain capacity of a notorious denialist is no different than a worm’s brain…..

  6. Now very seriously the following:-
    We have recently witnessed the French willingness to side w/justice owed to Armenians,commencing with pres.Sarkozy visit to Republic of Armenia,where he clear and loud pronounced that it was Genocide(Tzeghasbanutyun) that was perpetrated on Armenians by Genocide state the Ottoman Turkey…
    Though important facts abound as to above,viz. THE MOST IMPORTANT ,THE OTTOMAN TURKEY’S military Tribunals condemning to DEATH the Triumverate,Ministers Talaat,Enver and Jemal “pashas”,who orchdestrated the Armenian Genocide.These escaped to Europe ,after said sentence the Govt. of Mustafa Kemal Turkey letting them do so.Armenian Avengers took care of them one, named Tehlirian caught and brought to German Court to be judged as murderer.After he explained reason he had done so , was acquitted.
    Now then, it seems that a double standard exists not only in present Turkey, but also in the Western Hemispheric countries ,such as the U.K. the U.S.A. and perhaps a couple more .
    Latter two countries especially are to be indicated ,nay shown those RACIST POSTERS that the Mob like demonstrators carried in Constantinople(Istanbulla) and no doubt recorded voiced threats as well, in order to explain them further that what their SILENCE or siding with that Genocide country does, is ENCOURAGE great Turkey to carry on with such like threats to a people that not very long ago was their own subject.
    The agnlo saxon above two countries ought to challenge great Turkey to -if not neighbour Iran, then RRRRussia, latter two’s perrenial – if not enemy-then competitor , adversary.Or is it that they also side with this Genocidal state…
    Imagining that if someday they are confronted with Russia, great Turkey would lend them a hand A COORIDO(COMES TO MIND WHEN iRAQ WAS TO BE ACCESSED VIA SAME TURKEY,latter denied it to the U.S. troops.
    Loss of memory is a bad and serious defect ,desease. It has to be attended to.I would suggest to them a meticulous study in this respect ,otherwise they may be in for a big SURPRISE again like in Iraq.Fact is there are more than one such betrayal acgt on behalf or the TRUSTED Nato ally Turkey and no need to name them one by one.The anglo American alliance ought to give great Turkey a lesson,as above pointed out to fire and punish the INTERIOR MINISTRE OF THAT country,as a first step towards relinquishing racist acts.

  7. As an Armenian who is aware about the Armenian Genocide, it is easy for me to sense the sarcasm in this article when the Armenian claims are continually referred to as lies. However, a non-aware reader who decides not to read the entire piece might not get it and will leave with the impression that the Armenians are the liars. Don’t overuse sarcasm to make a point. It’s kind of like preaching to the choir.

    • Sebu, I think its fine. Its not overused and no one could misread this. The beggining is already clear on the message.

  8. What is the biggest export of Armenia Illegal workers
    What is the biggest import of Armenia Foreign aid

    • What is the biggest export of Turkey: terrrorism and Al Qaida
      What is the biggest import of Turkey: Uighur, Chechen, Taliban, Syrian, Iraqi terrorists.

    • Sorry john the turk, I should have included in my comment:
      What is the biggest support ot Turkey: Islamic fundamentalism in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Lybia, Somalia, Eygpt.

  9. Now we get a view of what “Turkish awakening”‘ means: Fanning hatred towards Armenians. Beware Ahmet, this hatred may prove to be your country’s doom. Don’t ever think that the “small” Armenia is no match for the “Goliath” Turkey. We are not afraid of your country. The only thing for which we really worry is the fate of the Armenian citizens in Turkey. But, we know in the meantime that there are many Turks who do not agree with this reckless hatemongering. They are the real patriotic Turks who might at the end save their coutry from distruction by zealots like you.

  10. I find it comical how Armenians are discussing Turkish posters at their rally. It is the Armenians that burn the Turkish flag every chance they get. It is Armenians who use derogatory language towards Turks all over the internet. I am a peaceful Turkish American. I can discuss this issue in a peaceful manner any day of the week. However, flag burning is not going to help your cause. Claiming that Eastern Turkey is Western Armenia is DEFINITELY not going to help your cause. Armenians were not the majority in Eastern Turkey. They were present, but they were not the majority.The borders are what they are. END OF DISCUSSION. The world recognizes those borders. Whether or not you recognize it means absolutely nothing to Turkey. As far as using the word genocide, I don’t know if I want to go there yet. I sympathize with the Armenian cause to a degree. However, I think 1.5 million is an exaggeration. I think many survived but were presumed dead, thus inflating the number. Another issue I wanted to touch on is Armenia’s support for Kurds. To the best of my knowledge, Kurds were major aggressors. Who currently lives in the old Armenian towns?? Turks ordered the deportations. Kurds do not deserve a free pass on this subject. I saw a free Berivan protest on youtube where Armenians were also present supporting an imprisoned kurdish girl. Again, I am baffled at Armenian support of Kurdish people. Millions of Turks died in WW1. We were attacked from all sides. We’ve accepted this. I wish peace between our 2 nations. I extend an olive branch to all Armenians world wide, however, we will never in a million years concede land and water.

    • good thing you are a peaceful Turkish-American: we were worried there for a second.

      We Armenians don’t want to get you Turks angry: you never know – you guys might decide to murder another 2 million Armenians (…that we know of).
      Which of course would not be Genocide in your peaceful Denialist mind, because you are not ready to go there yet.

      It’s OK: we don’t need you. We don’t care where you go or don’t go.

      As to borders: very soon there will be an independent Kurdistan in what is called Eastern Turkey. The rulers of Turkey cannot keep 30 million Kurds suppressed forever. Borders will start changing very quickly after that.
      Ottoman Empire was reduced to 1/4 -1/5 of its former size in a historical blink of an eye. Today’s Turkey is no different: it is a country of suppressed nationalities who are forced to call themselves “Turk”, same as Kurds were forced to call themselves “Mountain Turks” only a few years ago.

      And your childish attempt to drive a wedge between Armenians and Kurds is too primitive to even discuss.

    • “very soon there will be an independent Kurdistan in what is called Eastern Turkey”

      Avery ,

      Are you a fortune teller?

      please tell me the score of the next match of Fenerbahçe Football club..

      you seem like a funny showman..

    • guess Nationalist Turks don’t have the capacity to get the fact that no matter what they say.. they will be ridiculed as their comments are sooo stupidly obnoxious…like Necati’s.. whose reputation of being the most crude, rude and notorious denialist is no match besides few of her kins on our pages.. and yet she has the balls to call one of own names… LOL hillarious…

      what happened Xanum….??? can’t believe that one day Kurds will revolt and stand up against people lke you and your govt???

  11. Eren, you are repeating Turkish propaganda! I have attended countless Armenian protests or demonstrations or genocide commemorations, and though I have heard of it happening, I have never witnessed Turkish flag burning at the events I have participated in. It is irresponsible and harmful for you to suggest that Armenians ‘do it every chance they get.’ If you truly sympathize with the Armenian cause, I challenge you to try to purge your rhetoric of these cheap stereotypes and prejudices. It undermines having discussions in a ‘peaceful manner.’

    • Boyajian, a simple YouTube search would do the trick. Type in Armenian Turkish flag, or anything of that sort, and you will see what I’m talking about. When Abdullah Gul went to Lebanon a few years back, hordes of Armenians were ripping away at a billboard with the Turkish flag on it. YouTube is a very powerful tool. Utilize it. I’ve watched Armenian Genocide rallies in Los Angeles on Youtube. Again, you can hear people in the crowd yelling “burn the building down”

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBoxwglm68&feature=related
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBbUuH-qSds
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wUeWL8tc5I

      Personally, when I watch a videos like this, I feel LESS motivated to work toward a peace deal. I watched a video of the silent protest in Washington dc. I can respect that a whole lot more. I was totally against the way the Turks counter protested. That was a bit tasteless. But at the same time, we’re going to protect our house so to speak. I have a quick question, how long have Armenians protested like that In Los Angeles? Another question for you, what metropolitan area do you live in? Are there a lot of Turks & armenians in your community. I live in Maryland and I’ve met 1 Armenian in my whole life (30 years). I haven’t had a lot of interaction with them obviously.

    • Another cheap attempt to say Armenians are agressors and hence why Turks don’t want to peacefully work with them.. Pleassssssssseee.. I am laughing soo hard because it is comical to have a denialist saying this..what a game you guys play, Eren the peaceful TUrkish American individual.. you are doing a really good job trying to push the spotlight… HUGE ONE that is from your aggressive denialists countrymen and women.. very ruthless and rude as they are toward Armenians who to this day, after almost HUNDRED YEARS of denial still are able to control the frustration and disgust toward your govt..now what nation can show such peaceful attitude after being murdered in cold blood and be denied of the rights to have what was stolen (MOST OF ALL the COST OF ALL THOSE INNOCENT LIVES that were taken prematurely because of your greedy and cold blooded Ottoman empire/Turkish govt) and yet you come here and TELL US that by watching a you tube video and witnessing a random incident of picture ripping of the coward and a devil himself Gul is what stops you to be civilized???? Now this is hysterical…

      Get over yourself Eren…for your sake and ours.

      Thank you and have a nice day

      Gayane

    • Eren, you missed my point. Your hyperbolic response is spreading more fear-based falsehood than anything else. It proves my point that you need to check your sources and your inflammatory rhetoric. Occasional flag burning has occurred by both Turks and Armenians. It by no means translates to Armenians “doing it every chance they get.” Are you really interested in peace or just in maligning Armenians? You admit you know few Armenians. I suggest that you meet a few before you spread anymore anti-Armenian propaganda and learn a little more about our shared history and the despicable actions of the Turkish government both pre and post WWI.

    • Boyajian,

      “If you truly sympathize with the Armenian cause”

      that was funny

      after reading his/her original post, you really thought he/she may sympathize ?

  12. this utube that eren is so baffled by, refers to Berivan, a 15 year old girl who has been imprisoned for 8 years on the common turk charge of “terrorism.” Civilized countries do not imprison 7 year old children.

    • What a terrible thing Perouz! Can Armenians really believe that we will ever achieve our goals through negotiations with a society unenlightened enough to imprison a seven year old child? Those who suggest that Armenians and Turks should sit down and “talk things out and settle our differences” are woefully misguided. I doubt the ultra-nationals in Turkey will ever ‘do the right thing’ unless compelled to by the nations of the world. And Armenians should not spend too much of their limited resources playing the dialogue game. We should focus on efforts that educate and promote our cause and our nation to the world. Good PR through cultural and academic arenas are sure to be more fruitful than trying to win the hearts and minds of those who choose to erect statues to murderers and who still today want to bury us at Ararat.

    • Perouz, civilized people don’t train young women to attack innocent people. Kurds have been attacking and killing innocent people since the 80’s. My question to you is….Were Armenians at that rally supporting the Kurds, or did they show up because of their own “struggle” against the “savage Turks”. I have a totally off topic question for anybody who would like to chime in on it. What percent of Armenians world wide speak Turkish? Also, what percent of Armenians watch Turkish Television in the USA. (DFH) I read a statistic somewhere that more Armenians had Turkish Television than that of Turkish households? Is that true? Why do Armenian women watch the soap operas of those savage beasts? If they’re going to be Anti-Turkish, they should do it the right way.

    • ‘Celebrating Genocide’

      We don’t celebrate Genocide. We are peaceful people. Your people say “Turkey run Turkey hide”. To us, those are fighting words. We’ll never run and we’ll never hide. If you want to be friends, we are here to be your friends. If you want to fight, we can fight. If you want war, we can do that also. The ball is in your court. The status quo is also fine with us. For years you made our diplomats uncomfortable and we did very little to stop you. You can say or do what you want on the other side of the street from now on. I think it is tasteless on both sides. Some of the Turkish posters are classless and disturbing. I am man enough to admit that. Your people can never admit wrong. On a separate note, I encourage your people to stop moving to Istanbul for work. I also encourage your people to stop vacationing in resort towns like Bodrum, Fethiye, Antalya, and Alanya. God forbid they spend money in enemy territory. If they are looking for work, they can go to Russia, Europe or even America. They don’t need to go to Istanbul do they? Greece has hundreds of vacation spots. They are begging for tourist right now. They will gladly receive you.

    • Eren, I wish you could hear yourself from my perspective. You come off as a very prejudiced and shallow thinking person. You say ‘we’ made your diplomats ‘uncomfortable.’ Correction: Some young Armenians became frustrated with the non-stop denial and distortion of the truth and of the unwillingness of Turkey to face justice. These few took the law in their own hands and targeted Turkish diplomats. 99% of Armenians did not approve of these tactics and had compassion for those who died, but we understood and sympathized with the young men and their desire to avenge the death of their ancestors. Do you think that your diplomats were more ‘uncomfortable’ than my great Aunt who starved to death in Der Zor because all Armenians were made to pay for the liberation struggles of a few? Can you not see through your prejudice and propaganda generated fear to recognize Turkey’s responsibility in having created this ‘Armenian Problem.’ Turkey started it and TUrkey holds the key to ending it.

      Who wants war? We want justice. Can you give that to us? Isn’t it time that Turkey deal honestly with this history?

    • {“I am a peaceful Turkish American. I can discuss this issue in a peaceful manner any day of the week. “}

      wrote peaceful Turkish-American ‘eren’.

      {” If you want to fight, we can fight.”}

      I guess the fake “peaceful” mask finally came off (…that was quick: usually it takes me several rounds to expose the fake “peaceful” Turk.)

      Something for you to consider “ready to fight Turk peaceful Turkish-American” Eren: during the Artsakh war of 1988-1994, several hundred of your Grey Wolf Turk volunteers (actually TSK Special Forces) came over to help the AzeriTurks in their failed attempt to exterminate more Armenians. I guess they came over thinking they’d kill a few more gyavurs for sport; they are are still there: resting peacefully on beautiful Artsakh meadows – 6 feet under.

      Don’t threaten us, Turk-oglu Eren-Bey: we are not the same naive Armenians of 1915 who believed the Turkish lies and walked meekly without resistance to their deaths in long columns.

  13. “I read a statistic somewhere that more Armenians had Turkish Television than that of Turkish households ?”

    If you had any concept of numbers, or any idea of how many people the country of Turkey has and how many Armenians there are in RoA, you would see how absurd that statement is.
    Or maybe you are reading the Turkish National Book of (Fake) Statistics: that would explain it. Does the same book state there are more Unicorns in Armenia than Turkey ?

    And I read a statistic somewhere that says Turks stole the 1000s years old culture of Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians – and present it to the world as “Turkish Culture”.

    Don’t believe me ? latest theft was the symbol of Turkish Lira released last week: it was stolen from Armenians. Look it up. It is an upside down symbol of RoA’s currency Dram, which predates it by years.

    • Bull’s eye Avery jan..

      maybe Eren has a secret book of facts the world does not have..i think it is the same book that Turkish govt is using…..ohhhhhhhhh I know.. it is their made belief book of secret facts.. of course … no wonder the world does not see the same facts as the Turkish nationalists and turkish govt is soooo vehemenlty pushing on them because this book of facts is written by physopaths.got it.. ok..

    • Avery, You’re not answering my question. I made no reference to the populations of Turkey and Armenia. I asked how many Armenians in America watched Turkish television. It is an astronomical number. What that tells me is Armenians are fascinated with Turkish Culture, just like the rest of the world. It is the propagandist Armenians who still claim that Turkey stole Armenian, Assyrian and Greek Culture. I love how Armenians always seem to link themselves to Greek people lol. The TRUTH is, All of us have different cultures and different genes. Armenians think Greeks are their brothers and compatriots. Greeks don’t care about you. Greeks care about themselves. I have more Greek friends than I do Turkish friends. You are an afterthought to Greeks. Your priests get into fights with Greek priests in Jerusalem. Is that normal? It’s interesting how you bring up The Turkish Lira symbol. Why don’t you bring up the fact that half of the music you all produce is Turkish Music.

      “As to borders: very soon there will be an independent Kurdistan in what is called Eastern Turkey. The rulers of Turkey cannot keep 30 million Kurds suppressed forever. Borders will start changing very quickly after that.”

      There are 15 million Kurds in Turkey. Once again, Armenians find it convenient to exaggerate numbers. Out of that 15 million, there are only 10,000 PKK fighthers. In other words, less than 1 percent. You are very ambitious Avery in regards to destroying a country that the world recognizes. That is the same ambition that you had in the early 20th century. Is it not? How did that turn out? The Western powers and Russia whispered sweet melodies in your ear. While Turks were getting slaughtered all over Anatolia, were there not atrocities committed against Turks by Armenians? I’m not comparing it to what happened to Armenians, but you are truly deluted and sick if you think Turks just woke up one morning and decided to deport Armenians.

      Enjoy this song, but don’t steal it

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOie9pu904U&feature=related

    • eren: I don’t answer questions from Denialists – of whatever ethnicity.

      I counter their disinformation and propaganda: everywhere I run into it
      You are new here: you will find out. If you stay long enough.

    • eren,

      I really don’t get why you bring up Tarkan’s music and tell us not to steal it. The Armenian songs that Avery gave the links for have actually been stolen by Turks.

      Why do you think we want Tarkan’s music? Personally, I think it sounds very Turkish, feel no connection to it and don’t care for it. We have very beautiful music and world-known musicians such as Khachaturian, Aznavour and many others in and outside Armenia. We don’t need any “help” from Turks.

      “Why don’t you bring up the fact that half of the music you all produce is Turkish Music.” Again, what half are you talking about? Can you give a specific example of Turkish music and the Armenian version of it or you are simply shooting in the air? Any classical piece that was stolen? Any specific song?

      I am not surprised that Armenian music sounds familiar or Turkish to your ears. There are many things besides music that Turks have stolen from other cultures and now they either truly believe or pretend that those things are their own creation. Some tunes in today’s Turkish music have Anatolian character. It doesn’t mean it’s Turkish music. Quite the contrary, actually.

  14. thank you RVDV for correcting me on the age of this girl’s 8 year imprisonment sentence. Civilized countries do not imprison 15 year old children.
    This may be a very difficult concept for those like eren to grasp, but many people attend rallies in order to support human rights; to support the protection of the innocent; to ensure the physical and sexual safety of women and children; to promote democracy; to prevent genocide; to prevent corruption; to ensure justice for the innocent.The list is even longer, but surely, even eren can identify within it, a reason for Armenians to rally against the imprisonment of a 15 year old girl on psuedo charges of terrorism, whatever her ethnicity. And yes, many will rally against immoral, denialist regimes for the return of their property.
    As for eren’s comment that “civilized people don’t train young women to attack innocent people.” I ask him to again view the photographs of those uncivilized turks holding up signs threatening to attack “bastard Armenians” without warning in the night. A child is standing in front of them. University students are threatening to descend on Yerevan in the dark. Turks are training their next generation to continue their genocidal acts of hatred and violence us.

    • Perouz, they are not teaching genocidal acts, they are teaching the new generation to defend themselves and defend their territorial integrity. Everything you see and hear is in response to Armenian claims of “Liberation of Western Armenia”. Again, as I mentioned in a previous post, we can be your friends, and we can be your worst enemy. The choice is yours. You expect us to sit back while you burn our flag and threaten us with war rhetoric. Not gonna happen

    • There is no choice EREN..Fake peaceful Turkish American.. YOU LOST THE PRIVILAGE TO BE OUR FRIENDS when your ancestors perpetrated cold blooded Genocide upon my ancestors and your govt to this day denies the fact… You lost the opportunity to even call us your friends now or in the future because Turkey never was, never is and never will be a country that anyone can feel comfortable to call it a friend. because as your aggressive idiots who said ” we will attack when you are sleeping” and stupid slogans like that during a rally does not give any of us the URGE to run and embrace your people with hugs and kisses..

      You are soooo hysterically funny that I can’t believe I am actually responding to you… thanks for the laughs Eren…

      Keep up the good job of showing how hate filled and ignorant and superior you think TUrks are over Armenians with your idiotic comments…

    • Okay enough of this “we want to be your friends.”

      Armenia made the gesture to sign the protocols, alienating the Diaspora in the process and putting a question mark over the events of 1915.

      Turkey’s response? Find another excuse not to open the border.

      Eren, if you want to be friends of Armenians, go lobby your government to follow through with its promise and ratify the protocols.

      Teshekulederim.

  15. The PKK members aren’t 10.000. The authorities estimates that it is around 3.500-5000 and some 1500 deployed in Turkey the rest is in Iraq.I think that the armed struggle of PKK is about to end although it may take longer than what we think.The PKK is not able to operate for months so they apparently decided to plot bombs here and there but they too are uncovered by police with the help of the Kurdish community before they can detonate. By the way, I want everything for the Kurdish community what I want for myself but slicing or dividing the country and depriving my rights isn’t a solution

    • “depriving my rights isn’t a solution”

      :))

      good thing i wasn’t eating or drinking

    • LNG… i was not that lucky.. I was drinking water when I read J The Turks manifesto and I spewed everything…

      “Depriving my rights is not a solution” is something J The Turk came up himself… WOW.. did not know he even knows what depriving the rights of a person or a nation to exist even means.. apparently these words are only valid in his messed up coo koo world.. no surprise.. Most denialists operate like he does..

      But it was hillarious.. lol

      Gayane

  16. Perouz
    “Civilized countries do not imprison 15 year old children.
    This may be a very difficult concept for those”
    Do your homework then make a comment. Do not try to distort the informations. Yes the European countries can jail a ten years old girl that’s the threshold
    Can you tell us what the civilised county or Armenia would do? Ha promote democracy in Armenia he he he

  17. Turks stealing something Armenian and presenting it to the world as “Turkish” – as usual.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Tj5-hez44&feature=player_embedded

    Զարթիր լաո – ZARTIR LAO – ETHNIC ARMENIAN SONG stolen by Turks
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtH8b-rAHS0&feature=related
    Enjoy it, but don’t steal it.

    One more: this one is so depraved, that I never imagined even Denialist Turks could sink that low..
    A Turkish singer steals the music of a mournful Armenian song that laments the Adana Massacre (30,000 Armenians massacred), and changes it to a slutty pop song: sick.

    Sebebim Aşk (Seden Gürel)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zk0BbTwqZw

    And here is the original. Again, enjoy it, our peacful Turkish-American guest: but don’t steal what belongs to Armenians.
    Agapi Ghazaryan “Adanayi Voghperge”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQXGqRo6RvE

    • Avery, very nice attempt. I can’t even notice the correlation between the last two songs. I’ll take your word for it though since I am not familiar with Armenian songs.

      http://www.armenianplanet.com/post-842698.html&highlight=

      I’m sure there are hundreds of more websites that Armenians have created where they discuss how they have taken Turkish songs and used them. They also discuss how they like Turkish music and they use Turkish words on a daily basis. I am so shocked that Armenians use words from the enemy language. Surely, they are not taught Turkish words in Armenian schools. They should no better than to lower themselves to the level of a blonde hair blue eyed Muslim Mongolian. I have a question for Boyajian, isn’t “boya” a Turkish word? To the best of my knowledge it is. After your family moved to America, why wasn’t your named changed to Ohanyan? Or Yepremian? Shouldn’t you have cleansed your name of it’s abominable Turkification. Maybe I am wrong, maybe Boya is an Armenian word and we stole that like we did everything else. Enlighten me

    • Avery, the music from the song was clearly stolen, better add it to the growing lawsuits against Big Bird. Here, (US), an immediate injunction against.the artist in her underwear would be filed prohibiting its distribution until it’s settled in court. The good news is that she’s singing a song about the AG but I’ve got to ask, how do the lyrics contrast line for line with the Armenian original? I’m curious how you make a “pop” tune out of a song about mass-murder?

    • {“I’m sure there are hundreds of more websites that Armenians have created where they discuss how they have taken Turkish songs and used them.”}

      of course there are.

      let’s see: Armenians (and Greeks, and Assyrians, and Kurds) were in the region for thousands of years prior to about 1000 A.D. when Seljuk Tribes arrived (well, invaded) from their homeland in East and Central Asia.
      I don’t know a lot about others, but Armenians had about a 4,000 old civilization (at least) before the Nomadic Warrior Seljuk Tribes invaded Armenian Highlands around 1000 AD.
      Now, there is no question that nomadic – as in NOMADIC – warrior tribes excelled in the arts of war and killing.
      But “Turkish music” ? surely you jest.
      Did they develop musical instruments simultaneously with the development of compound bows or silk under-armor ?

      Music, alphabet, writing, high culture, architecture, etc is associated with advanced civilizations everywhere else in the world. How are the nomadic – there is that word again, NOMADIC – warrior tribes supposed to have composed music that Armenians are supposed to have stolen form ?

    • Eren could you be less respectful? My ancestors, like many Armenians, were forced to take Turkish names. The fact that the name was not changed was to allow lost and seperated family members to find each other in the years following the genocide. Secondly, we don’t hate the name, the language or the people, we hate the injustice of our deliberate extermination from our homeland. I can see you have no interest in open minded discussion. Let’s leave it here, Aren..

    • {” I can’t even notice the correlation between the last two songs.”}

      don’t take my word for it pal.

      if you cannot tell the music is identical – as in copied, stolen, filched, plagiarized – you may need to see a specialist.

    • Eren by providing the video of a woman who took almost 3 minutes to start singing because she was busy showing off her plastic surgery job on her lips eyes and nose among other places (not to say they didnt do a good job) is not a great example my turkish american peace loving but i can cut your throat if given a chance.

      I personnaly love Arabic vs Turkish. Turks tried to throw in Arabic into this video but didnt have the soul the depth and better musical tones like Arabic has but thanks for the show. Watched a few min but dont have the desire to go back to it. Hence why would more Armenians watch Turkish tv if we dont even enjoy the most primitaive music video oozing with sexuality and a pretty lady full of plastic surgeory.

  18. “I asked how many Armenians in America watched Turkish television. It is an astronomical number. What that tells me is Armenians are fascinated with Turkish Culture, just like the rest of the world. It is the propagandist Armenians who still claim that Turkey stole Armenian, Assyrian and Greek Culture.”

    eren,

    Where do you get this ridiculous information? I don’t know any Armenian family in the US who watch Turkish TV, and I know so many Armenians. There are far better things to watch and do, believe me.

    And what Turkish culture are you talking about, may I ask? The The food we make, the music we play and everything else are Armenian and passed to us by our grandparents. It’s just a turkish habit to think of them as turkish. Who stole from whom this beautiful song?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVJSUYkkXSk

    And yes, Turks stole pretty much everything valuable they have from Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians. I understand that it’s hard for you to accept it but that’s the truth.

  19. More manifestations of ‘peaceful’ and ‘civilized’ Turkish society.

    The level of civilization reached by the modern State of Turkey can be judged by the following: below are the military marching chants that were part of officially sanctioned chants of the TSK. They were stopped this year, 2012.
    But were the sanctioned chants up until 2011.

    That is not a typo: not up to 1911, or 1921, or 1931,….. but up until year 2011; ‘civilized’, ‘peaceful’ Turks were Officially advocating mass rapes of the females of the invaded country. (I guess gang rape in their universe does not count as mass violence: it must be a massively peaceful, loving act)
    And this is the country that EU was considering allowing to join it ?

    [‘Military marches that degrade women now barred’ (TodaysZaman March 9, 2012)]
    “Women with light skin, dark skin or everything in between — it doesn’t matter, we are soldiers and soldiers won’t let them escape.”

    [‘Military to abolish misogynous marches’ (Hurriyet March 9, 2012)]
    “Blonde, brunette or fair; the infantry takes its share”
    “Take over the neighbor’s girl”
    “Go back where you came from and bring your sis back”

    • Mr Avery, Your Nomad comments are so very accurate. Here is a disgusting nomad for you. Close one eye, you might not be able to handle it

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ABYS-hgLmc&list=FLxBVd1dyajf4lcx31856KyQ&index=17&feature=plpp_video

      Nomad at it’s finest. The beauty of Turkey and Turkish people is that we are a mix society. We are proud of that. I very well may have Armenian blood in me. Or Greek blood. Who knows. America is a multicultural, multiple ethnicity country. Nobody complains about that. Armenians all look the same. Jet black hair, olive toned skin with a wide Joker smile. If your people were raped and pillaged for thousands of years by the Nomad Turks, why do you all still look the same. Half of my family has blond hair and blue/green eyes. Where did that come from? I doubt it was mongolia. If you walked by me in the mall, you’d think I was a 5th generation American.

      I totally appreciate what Armenians contributed to the Ottoman empire. I was extremely impressed when I learned Dolmabahce Palace was designed by an Armenian. Adile Nasit was an amazing actress. Rober Hatemo’s music is very good. Cem Karaca is a legend.

      You misinterpreted my war words Avery, I came here in peace, but on the same token, your war rhetoric is not tolerated in the Turkish community is what I am trying to say.

      You claim that Turks stole Assyrian, Armenian and Greek cultures. One of my counter arguments to that would be……Why is it that Turkish restaurants have better food than Greek, Armenian, Persian etc etc restaurants??? I am not saying that to be biased. Go to an authentic Turkish Restaurant and you will notice the difference. I swear by it. Hmm maybe it’s because you learned a thing or two from the Ottomans. Germans who visit America go through withdrawal when they can’t find a Doner Kebab sandwich. Let me guess, an Armenian from the 5th century BC created Doner. The Nomad city Istanbul rivals any city in the world. Travelers who visit come back astonished at the social and cultural aspects. 50% of Greeks watch Turkish TV. If you go to the Athens Airport, the custom agent has a mini TV next to him while he’s stamping passports. Guess what he’s watching? A bunch of Nomads. The drama EZEL is broadcasted in over 10 countries and has a cult like following. We probably learned drama and acting from Kurds in 1200 AD

      Boyajian, I wasn’t trying to disrespect your name. I very much like your name. I am truly saddened that people were forced to change their names. I believe you should be able to have whatever name you want. I am also saddened to learn that it was used to find lost and separated family members. I meant no harm, I am just trying to figure out why, 97 years later, you still have a name linked to the enemy. There are many Armenians in California with the last name Polat, safak, Celik, *****oglu etc etc. I could go on all day. Why don’t they change their name to an Armenian name in the year 2012. This isn’t a derogatory comment. I’m trying to learn your point of view. I have an off topic question. Does Kardashian come from the Turkish word Kardesh. Or is Kardashian an Armenian name. I won’t be bothering you all too much longer. I just stumbled upon the website recently. It is interesting to say the least. I’ll come and go here and there. Hopefully we can agree to disagree. G night to all….

    • eren.. your parents must be very proud to raise such an ignorant misinformed denialist who pretends to come here in peace yet call Armenians Joker faces yet speaks openly how you would attack if wanted to, yet spews nonsense such as Armenians stole music when Turks were not even on the map when Armenians were creating music…. you definintely need help just lke your other lost minds such as Necati, Ahmet, J The Turk, Murat, and ilk…

      Get your head out of your high superiority mode and come to realization that you are part of the denialist propoganda my confused Turkish American peaceful whatever you call yourself…and people like you need a good dose of reality and history classes…

    • Eren,

      Your level of confidence is great, but unlike Necati you sound very inexperienced.
      Shall we begin?

      OK.

      1) The “nomad” in the video clip was not discusting at all, exept she was not a nomad. She was either from Greek or ARmenian descent.

      2) “The beauty of Turkey and Turkish people is that we are a mix society”. I guess you meant the beauty of turkish citizens. If so, then indeed true.

      3) “America is a multicultural, multiple ethnicity country.” True, but Americans are
      brave enough to admit what they did to Native Americans. So before turks admit ARmenian Genocide it will be premature to compare yourself with Americans. You need balls when it comes to admiting your past.

      4) “If your people were raped and pillaged for thousands of years by the Nomad Turks, why do you all still look the same”. Most of the ones that were raped became modern day turks. If you don’t believe me ask your senior friend Necati.

      5) “You claim that Turks stole Assyrian, Armenian and Greek cultures. One of my counter arguments to that would be……Why is it that Turkish restaurants have better food than Greek, Armenian, Persian etc etc restaurants???” No matter how much we may respect your egocentric oppinon, after all it is your oppinion based on your taste, in turn based on misinformation. LOL. Sorry.

      6) “Go to an authentic Turkish Restaurant and you will notice the difference. I swear by it”. Swear by what? FOOD????????????????????

      7) “Germans who visit America go through withdrawal when they can’t find a Doner Kebab sandwich”. It is not doner, it is TONIR.

      8) “Let me guess, an Armenian from the 5th century BC created Doner”. Good guess, but not from 5th century BC, but from 5th millenium BC. And I already told you that it is not doner, it is TONIR.

      9) “Boyajian, I wasn’t trying to disrespect your name. I very much like your name”.
      Your names is a nice name too. Except turkish people have a tendency to change letter “a” to letter “e” which is not nesseceraly bad, but a variation of the original name. Like ARmani becomes ERmeni, or ARan becomes EREN.

      10) “I meant no harm, I am just trying to figure out why, 97 years later, you still have a name linked to the enemy”. I don’t know. It is something that you should ask your turkish intelectuals. Why 97 years after tryting to wipe out ARmenians from the face of “this” earth you are still carrying an ARmenian name. Was it because turks wanted to stole their identity?

      11) “Why don’t they change their name to an Armenian name in the year 2012.”
      Because it is your idea to change names in 2012, why don’t you make the first move and change your name? Is it because you like ARmenian names too much? Can’t blame you.

      12) “Does Kardashian come from the Turkish word Kardesh”? Absolutely yes. Don’t you know that “Kar” in turkish means stone and “Dash”el means to polish? What kind of a turk are you? And “ian” or “yan” is the same as “oglu” in ARmenian. LOL. oops sory.

  20. Please do your homework, john the turk. Armenia has no 15 year old girls in prison. And turkey? How old do you have to be before the Midnight Express toots past you in turkey?

    • I would go that far. Armenia has a juvenile court system, and there are minors imprisoned.

  21. This really makes me angry !! It’s not enough those turks stole our Zartir Lao, but stealing the horrible Adana Massacre song and make it a turkish pop song makes me really angry !!! No decency with those stealer turkish people. No decency whatsoever !!!!

    • Dear Seervart,

      just remember that we are dealing with Turks. They stole our homeland, our money, houses, gold, culture, our women and children. Why our songs should be treated differently? When it comes to Turks there is nothing that will surprise me. We just have to learn who we are dealing with and take necessary measures in reaction to their actions.

  22. I watched that turkish music which arkadash eren put on.it is something very popular internationally,i.e. Rap, even the japs , chinese Armenians you name it employ it with a twisst of some their own music ¨¨mixed¨¨ with it…
    Also the rythm in it also reminds one of the Arabic belly dance music…
    Latter indeed more popular as the belly dance has caught on and IT DOES ATTRACT ATTENTION OF MOSTLY MALES…no doubt about that!!!
    But frankly no nothing interesting about the turkish music eren put on..I prefer the arabic rthym .Oh belly dancing.I have seen Naide jamal and then Samieh jaml(two sisters9 in Belgoium and Cairo respectively yrs ago…fantastic dance and accompanying music THAT MUSIC IS THE REAL EASTERN CREME of happy to dance to.Whereas, ( I ´m not a musician) the world knows about Aram Khachaturian, classic music GOMIDAS….!!!! music etc.,
    As to current Armenian music (no rap )it is still something admirable..
    One more thing Why wave the Bloody red Toikish flag,when chanting and dancing????
    No Armenian or otherwise other youth do that…also why mix the football players with that supposedly toikish original music .Is it because the music per se is nothing to boast about or to offer..as such?
    come come mr. eren, you can do better than that.
    As to only 10,000 kurds (amongst, let´s compromise 18/20 million) being opposed to their turkish forcefully imposed rule on them, very much questionable.I fathom at the very least a tenth of that count can be considered as KURDS that vye and crave for riddance of the toikish yolk…Witness the Kurdish mayor of Diarbakira(Tigranakert) that was immediately imprisoned after he welcome the Armenian PILGRIMS TO THE ST.GIRAGOS RE OPENING THEREAT…Go ask your Govt. why????
    Realy ,as some above have pointed out to you, your efforts to deny the genocide perpetrated on our ancdestors and riches,land, etc., confiscated,prior to putting them(whatever was remaining of them after (slaughterhouse Provinces…)-latter name of a book by a compatriot that describes same in Western armenia …I have really exhausted mysself trying to prove thios chap eeren who his ancestors were and what crime they committed EVICTING THE ARMENIANS…from millenia old habitat..
    ¨you took up arms against us ,stabbed us on the back etc., are VERY CHEAP WORDS…you sided with the Russians…again very cheap.Indeed the ¨raya¨
    Armenian had the god given choice to fight FOR FREEDOM.
    You say you ,live in the U.S, and you have not learnt how THE US. HAS COMPENSATED THE NATIVE AMEERICANS AND/or the African Americans and still it does. then what have you learnt here????
    Oh please go grind your old very old oxydated axe elsewhere.
    Keep your thrash music and soviet style red Falg to yourselves and boast that there is no one better than your people.Live in the clouds in short!!!

  23. Necatik and muratik,

    Lets analyze who the real bastards are. For the past at least 18 thousand years ARmenians have looked like both their Fathers and Mothers. We cant say the same thing for turks even for the last five hundred years. Turks suposedly are the descendants of asiatic Mongols whom they do not look like at all. Somethings must have happened in that transition. But what? Could it be intermingling with ARmenians? What else if not that! So to be academicaly correct, instead of saying that ARmenians are bastards, we can say that turks are bastard armenians.

    • Very good observation AR…

      Is not it hysterical that even with MAJOR and STRONG evidence that points to Turks and Azeris stealing our, Greeks, and Assyrians national identity and everything else that comes with that, they still have a face to tell the world otherwise.. but only guilty will turn around and blame the other person.. Turkey is doing just that very well.. and Turkey’s broken soldiers as we see on our pages peddlig sooo hard to move their broken boat with their lies, made up stories and accusations that in the midst of all that, they fall one by one and drawn… sooo sad…

    • I hope you meant to say at least 1,800 years, not 18,000. If that is the case, please disregard the rest of my post.

      18,000? The first sedentary people in the world were the Natufians, who first became sedentary some 14 thousand years ago. The emergence of the first civilizations were 10 thousand years ago. And the first permanent settlements in the Armenian highland was 8000 years ago. So I am supposed to believe that the Armenian people predate sedentism AND civilization AND the first permanent settlements in the Armenian highland by THOUSANDS of years?

      http://www.littlearmenia.com/html/little_armenia/armenian_history.asp

      An Armenian website dates Ancient Armenia to 3500 BC, or 5500 years ago.

      http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Armenian_History:

      “The earliest record identified with Armenians is from Armenic Sumerian inscriptions around 2700 BC, in which the Armenians are referred to as the sons of Haya, after the regional god of the Armenian Highlands.”

    • I have to agree with RVDV.

      There is no evidence that Armenians can trace their ancestry back to 18,000 years.

      All the research by RoA historians and scientists I have studied, reliably traces our roots back to about 5,000 years. Future research may extend it some: but I doubt it could go back to 18,000.

      I am no historian. But, logically, I just don’t see how can one trace a specific Ethnos back to beyond 10,000 years – at the absolute limit. (my guesstimate).

      Even getting close to 10,000 would be a stretch, in my opinion..
      There is some DNA evidence referenced in Rouben Galichian book “The Invention of History” that people currently inhabiting NKR can trace their DNA back to 40,000 years. But I just don’t see how can one identify any ethnos as ‘Armenian’ or any other ethnos that far back.

      Indigenous humanoids most likely continuously inhabited the Karabagh highlands for 10s of thousands of years. But, at this time I can’t find any way to say they were Armenians. Meaning: the concept of being ‘Armenian’ could not be traced that far back. Some of the various humanoid tribes that lived there probably coalesced into pro-Armenian tribes over time, and thence to Armenians. But, my take is that before to about 5,000 years or so, they were just humanoid tribes living there.

      Just the same: even 5,000 years is more than enough.

    • If we can trace our ancestry 18K years, so can anyone else, because you would need to play fast and loose with the definition of what an Armenian is. Such comments are based on ignorance of how cultures develop, DNA and anthropology in general.

      If you trace back Armenians through DNA 18K years, then you’ll most likely point to a group of people you would not recognize and in fact could be the common ancestor of several different ethnic groups in the region. If you think Armenians were an isolated, independent and unchanging group of people going back 10K years or more, you’re mistaken. We can trace our history way back before Turks on our historical territories, but I hope you don’t think there hasn’t been any mingling with other groups over the millennia. You can’t prevent such things from happening.

      And this goes for culture as well. How much of our Armenian culture is influenced and borrowed from others we lived with? How many of our musical instruments are of Armenian origin? Is this theft or influence? One can’t prevent cross-cultural pollination. It’s human nature.

      That said, there are legitimate complaints contraversies when one group deliberately hides the origin of a cultural element in order to claim ownership of it.

  24. “For the past at least 18 thousand years ARmenians have looked like both their Fathers and Mothers”

    i told you Hay people long time ago ..

    Adam and Eve were Armenians… and all of a sudden , a Turk gave them an apple ..they eat it and were put in the hell…

  25. “we can say that turks are bastard armenians”

    YES, yes , yes ……. That is what i am saying..!

    A Turk saying ” we are all ermeni” is a bastard .
    since he does not know who his father is…

    AR, you are my best here… thank you..!

    i dont know why Avery does not agree with that..

    • Necati,

      You did not get what AR said. What he meant is unless Turks have slanted eyes they are bastard Armenians (Greeks). That applies to you too unless you have slanted eyes.
      Let’s also not forget that significant number of your ancestors were born of rape. Your Ottoman grandfathers would go around, steal all the beautiful Armenian and Greek girls and take them into their sultans’ harems. Sultans would rape those girls and breed like rabbits.

    • Just so you know, the use of the term “slanted eyes” has been used in an offensive manner towards Asians.

    • Thank you for the information. I know that “slanted eyes” term sometimes is used in an offensive way even though I would not be offended if I had eyes with epicanthic folds. Anyway, I did not mean to offend people who had eyes with epicanthic folds. In my opinion, no phenotypic trait should be considered offensive simply because no trait is better than other. Humans living in different part of the planet genetically are distinct and there should be a way to address those differences without being labeled as racist.

  26. A bit of European,rather world history to eren and co.
    Another people subjugated -like the Armenians-far away in Western Europe, were conquered and their lands occupied for 600 years by North Western African Khaliphates…
    Btu a spanish princess gathered around her the Princes ,secretly got well armed and drove the invadors out.She then declared herself Queen of Spain Izabel La Catolica.read history ere and learn that invaded/conquered peoples/countries can drive out the invadors…nothing new and special about that.so stop thinking that Armenian should always be within turkey as your subjects…..
    Also Armenians like I explaioned to you or others before were intentionally dispersed over Eastern Turkey 8Western armenia9 and the ruling ottomans were not quite liek areabs.They ruined everything they lahyed they hands uponm….witness the ruined armenian monasteries churches etc.,,,most tha t is.Wehre as the Arabs have leeft in Spain Architectural MARVELS…The Al Hamra the othe mostques that are well kept by the Spanish Gov.t

  27. Tom writes: Your problem is that you refer to humans as second rate citizens…shame on you…

    oh Tom, the Turks regarded the Armenians as 2nd-rate citizens and called them ‘dogs.’ Erdogan is a recent rant to another Turkish person exclaimed, ‘how dare you compare me to an Armenian.’ It doesn’t sound very complimentary and kinda categorizing Armenians as 2nd-class people, like some others in the Middle East do too…

    • Tom probably was having a bad day Mardehros jan.. lol i am sure he knows by now that his comment was embarassing to write to say the least…or he felt he had to contribute to our discussion and came up with that comment in a spur of a moment.. but i am sure he will think twice before writing such a comment again..

  28. RVDV and Avery,

    ARmenian is not the right word I guess. My appologies for any confussion. I should have said HAYs and the ARmenian language are easily trace back to much-much more than 18,000 (RVDV – Eighteen thousand) years.

    • “. I should have said HAYs and the ARmenian language are easily trace back to much-much more than 18,000 (RVDV – Eighteen thousand) years.”

      Still, No. You can trace the Armenian language back to 4,000 BC, as it was one of the younger Proto-Indo-European Languages. No Further. Even the oldest Anatolian languages are only traced to 7000 BC. But I get your point either way, the newer culture logically will steal from the older one.

    • AR, Dont worry man !

      you are the most intelligent armenian i have ever met here in AW..

      at least more than Avery..

      you are good at fabrication.. keep going..

    • Necati,

      The TRUTH hurts, doesn’t it?
      I don’t look at you as my enemy. I am only asking you to admit what happened a century ago. Is it a lot to ask???????????????????????????????????????

  29. Boyajian
    Why are you compelled to lie about changing your family name? Turks borrow many words from Armenians or vice verse but it is the first time I have heard that Armenians were forced to change their family names. If that was correct. Why on earth some Armenians weren’t forced to change their names in Turkey since some names are of Armenian origines ? I do not understand why most Armenians can tell a lie as long as it serves their pupose?

    • I met many Armenians who left Turkey and immigrated to other countries. Any time I asked why their last name was not Armenian they said they were forced to change.
      You ask why some Armenians changed their names some did not? For so many reasons. Because Some parts of Turkey is a little bit more tolerant then others. It also depends what occupation they had etc.

      I am surprised that you are asking this question. As if you do not know what Turkey is about. For how many years Kurds have been saying we are Kurds but Turkey was saying no you are mountain Turks?

  30. John, I really think this discussion about changing names is a diversion from the main and most important issue which is justice owed to Armenians for the genocide of 1915-1923 where the indigenous Armenian population of Asia Minor was wiped out.

    We were conquered—exchange of culture and language happens when people mix. This is not a sin, nor does it change anything about what Turkey owes Armenia. The main point is that Turkey needs to stop being the bully of the neighborhood and give proper respect and recognition to the cultures and artistry of the people who pre-existed them in the region. When Turkey claims an artifact of ancient Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians as an example of “Ancient Turks” they are negating the pre-existence of these indigenous cultures and trying to claim it as their own. That is dishonest and deliberately distorts history. Erasing people and their culture is a crime.

    • I recall an article in these pages by Ara Sarafian perhaps three years ago recounting a trip to museums in eastern Anatolia where no mention is made of Armenians. In one museum an ancient Armenian church door was displayed, but there is no description of who made it or where it stood.

  31. Sireli Boyajian,
    No one on this site owes personal information to anyone, most certainly not to a denialist turk. It is highly offensive that you have been asked to explain your own family name by john the turk. This further violation of human decency and normal civilized behaviour, by calling you a “liar,” does not deserve a response from you.

    • Thanks Perouz. I agree. Some denialists here are like annoying mosquitos. They show their level of culture and education, nothing more.

  32. AR
    You hit the wall very hard man. Why didn’t you do your homework before make a long comment. In your delusional world, you spotted something very important but you are dead wrong. when you read and digest, you will realize that your entire comment is trash talk

    Turkish -> English

    eren

    1. one who has become one with God through self-denial.
    2. saint.
    3. a mystic; dervish.

    erenler mode of address among dervishes.

    erenlerin sağı solu olmaz. proverb
    1. A knowledgeable person achieves success no matter what course he follows.
    2. Even the best of masters is unpredictable.

    • John the turk,

      I feel your heart bit man, relax. It is not your fault that turks have stolen a lot of ARmenian names. They kind of had to, because how else could they come up with so many names so quick.

      A bit of information for you regarding your name, and its evolution.

      ARmenian Hovannes became ARmeno-Sumero-Akkadian Oannes. That in turn became Jovannes, then Jovan, then John.

      Oh yeah i forgot, then john the turk.

      Also its funny to mention turkish-english translations during serious conversations.
      You can do it here and make us laugh, but you don’t want to do it in your professional career. If you don’t believe, ask Necati.

  33. Boyajian
    You are right and we aren’t discussing a personal information and should stop here. I do not consider whether or not the person I am responding a man or woman but I think you are a lady if I remember correctly so I apologize for my rude comment
    —————————————————————————————
    I am sorry but I do not understand why is it so hard to understand that Armenians have to set up a history commission with Turks or take their case to ICJ? Without doing that it is just a pipe dream to expect that something will happen.
    If you follow the legal path then whatever the conclusion will be, you will be able to move forward. Yes Armenians suffered yes they were removed from their ancestral land but genocide claims must be proven at a competent court. France or USA or anyone else accepted this or that has no meaning whatsoever

    • J the turk before you address Boyajian about a name why dont you explain your name? Apparently you ran out of Turkish names when it was time for you to pick one?

      It also not your concern whether or not one is a female or male. Boyajian’s one strand of hair has more heart concsious and intelligent that all you denialist put together.

      Also get this through your denialist head your claim for us to go to court and forget world recognition is just what you prefer right? After 97 years of destroying and burning evidence and archives and now controlling most everyone with flaahing the money your govt stole from my people you expect Armenians to humbly accept this ridiculeous oh lets sit and talk BS? Are not you clever. ???? Nooott

      You and your govt are not capable and dont have the intelligence and deceny to be honest for Armenians to take that steps. My people trusted in their govt almost 100 years ago and we know what happened to them.

    • The idea of the need for a ‘history commission’ to decide a truth that has long been known and accepted world-wide, just because the guilty have successfully avoided justice for 97 years and now prey on the fading memory and ignorance of some greedy politicians and academics is nothing short of repulsive to most Armenians. But if it ever came to that, I have no fear that the facts will show that Turkey is guilty of genocide and its denial.

  34. How sad it is that as humans we are so divided. The division is there almost in all ethnic groups and religions mostly among neighbors. Utopian ideas such as Wendell Wilkie’s One World , never had achance. Until we realize that we are first humans and next a member of an ethnic group we shall continue fighting. Should Turks come to terms with their past? Of course. But this will happen only when the veneer of ultra-nationalism disappears and is replaced by humanism. It may well be that this is an unachievable goal. One is almost driven to hope for a global disaster to bring nations to cooperate and love each other. Would a meteor hit be enough?

    • Alan Cartwright,

      The meteor hit may or may not be enough! It will not change the facts of what happened in the history of mankind before it hit the Earth.

      Lets start with asking you this: Do you think what turks did to ARmenians was a Genocide? Yes or NO?

    • “Until we realize that we are first humans and next a member of an ethnic group we shall continue fighting”

      probably, one of the better sentences on this website, ever
      but, it would be better if it is “Until we realize that we are individuals first, humans 2nd, everything else next…”

      well, at least i am like that

    • alan,

      i’ld like to add that not only ultra-nationalism but nationalism itself is one of the causes

      also, nationalism is ABSOLUTELY unnecessary
      tragically, most ppl can’t realize that

  35. No Alan,I beg to differ.By dreaming one also can live says the spanish proverb¨soñando uno tambien vive¨.But we live in a real world.
    Above a turk writes that we go to Court ICJ.The armenian proverb says ¨Gogh sird Dogh¨¨, means ¨¨Thief, w/heart shaky¨¨ more or less to that effect..
    Armenians will ,when the time comes Lodge their Claims ,no doubt about that at proper instances.
    However,back to our discussion now. History shows that there have always been world powers(some) that have ¨corrected¨ wrongs made by wronmg doers. It may take time to bring culprit to JUSTICE,but Armenians are famous for being over patient…
    As to nationalism -being-on the rise (note.-not ULTRA nationalism) a reality all over the world,since IDEOLOGIES seem to have given in to this phenomenae. Fact is people all over the world are by and by becoming wary of Ideologies…
    New generations need to classify themselves,apart from being part of a nation/state, crusaders? shall we say of a NEW modality of ,what I call in my Theme/Projections ¨¨A New Concept of electoral system & Governance¨More about latter in a future post by me.

  36. Reply to Ar: What the Ottoman Turkish Government did to Armenians was genocide, and most, but not all, Turks and Kurds participated in it.
    Reply to gaytzag Palandjian: I am afraid your thoughts on the subject are at a level that my comprehension can not reach. I will be interested (sincerely) to hear more.
    What I am trying to say, (apparently rather badly), is that genocides are ubiquitous to empires and powerful states. Man’s territorial nature has historically been responsible to massacre smaller and weaker states under the pretense of spreading civilization and religion. While there is some hope that U.N. may be able to prevent future genocides the evidence to date is discouraging. Therefore, to bring out our common human bonds and to establish the brotherhood of man, I am speculating whether what we need is a global catastrophe so that we can bond together. That is all I am saying.

    • Alan.. you may not know a thing or two about Turkey and how she operates which is why you write about brotherhood and bonding together.. if you knew the history and also current situation you would not promote such brotherhood..

      Armenians have been bonding very well with every nations as you can see or maybe learned that Armenians are EVERYWHERE in the world prospering and beautifying their host nations by being great citizens contributing their talent, knowledge and sense of community… Armenians dont’ have an issue bonding or being brotherly to other nations.. The problem is Turkey does not want that and frankly I personally dont’ want to be their friend.. not now, not ever.. knowing her history and what she is capable of, no one is safe with Turkey… NO ONE…so I kind of get what you are saying but you are preaching to the wrong crowd my friend…

      No need for catastrophe to have humans to bond (especially Armenians.. God knows they have been through so many catastrophies including the Genocide to know how to bond).. Catastrophe may be needed to jolt Turkey out of their denialism.. but that may never happen until the entire world basically puts her denialist state on the edge of a very high clif and make them jump without mercy if they dont’ accept their wrong doings and continue the White Genocide….

      Gayane

    • Alan Cartwright,

      Ronald Reagan asked the same question in the late 80’s during the UN speech. My aswer is maybe we do.

      But, genes have memory…

  37. To whom it may concern:
    Treasured history of Turkish music housed in Yerevan library
    Hurriyet,Tuesday, October 26, 2010
    VERCİHAN ZİFLİOĞLU
    YEREVAN – Hürriyet Daily News
    A part of the Armenian Music and Science Library in Yerevan, home to the some of the world’s most priceless musical notes, documents, manuscripts and gramophone recordings, is dedicated to maintaining a Turkish and Azeri music archive. Museum director Gulo Nahadakyan has called on Turkey to help maintain the archive. ‘The language of music is universal. We want to meet with you in the universal denominator,’ she says.

    A treasured history of Turkish music is housed in the Armenian Music and Science Library, located a few kilometers away from the center of the Armenian capital, which maintains an archive of world music.
    Besides maintaining recordings of the usual international names in music, from Beethoven to Mozart, and to Armenian music’s best-known figures such as Gomidas and Khacaduryan, and tens of thousands of documents, manuscripts, musical notes, gramophone recordings and some famous composers’ private correspondence, an archive of Turkish classical and pop music is kept in a special room in the library, which also features an impressive collection of Azeri music. It is almost impossible to find such a comprehensive archive in Turkey.
    The museum’s director, Gulo Nahadakyan, told the Hürriyet Daily News & Economic Review the reason for maintaining the archive was to preserve especially regional music, because music transcends geography and politics. “Turkey and Azerbaijan are our neighbors. Moreover, art does not have a religion and language. Music is universal,” Nahadakyan said, adding that her biggest wish is to collaborate with a Turkish organization and university working in the field of music in order to safeguard the archive.
    Dilapidated conditions and a lack of funds
    Unfortunately, the library, which accommodates hundreds of years’ worth of world music history, has been severely neglected and some of the documents in the archive are kept in dust and dirt because of a lack of funds. Nahadakyan said the archive is deprived of financial support and has severe economic problems.
    “If these documents belonged to another country, they would have been kept like priceless treasures. But unfortunately, this is our situation,” said Nahadakyan, adding that the condition of the building was far from secure. “People are not aware of the riches here. If they knew, they would steal everything in one night,” she said.
    The museum employs 36 expert staff, almost 90 percent of whom are women. Nahadakyan said the reason why it is mostly women who work in the museum is again one of funding. “The maximum amount of money we can pay is $30 dollars a month. A man cannot support a family with this money.”
    Nilüfer moves the library to tears
    The room where the Turkish and Azeri collections are kept is full of gramophone recordings. A Turkish music expert who simply calls herself Ruzan said they had transferred the collection of gramophone recordings onto CD over the last few years in order to make things easy for researchers. “In this way, we try to protect gramophone recordings as much as possible. Researchers can take them home, which makes things easier for them,” she said.
    Yet one day, as a surprise, Ruzan and her friends brought a record player to the library one day and played a record of renowned Turkish pop singer Nilüfer. The Turkish singer’s voice echoed around the library on the other side of the closed border and everyone in the room was moved to tears, she said. The name of the song was “Taa Uzak Yollardan” (From Very Far Roads). Nilüfer is the most beloved Turkish pop singer among the women working in the library, Ruzan said.
    She added that recordings by many famous artists who have left their mark on Turkish and Azeri music are kept in the Turkish and Azeri music archive room.
    Nahakdakyan said that all documents in the library are the common heritage of mankind and required support, calling on Turkey to contribute to the archive. “The language of music is universal. We want to meet with you in the universal denominator. Let’s collaborate. Our doors and archives are open to you,” she said.
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=history-of-world-music-kept-in-yerevan-2010-10-25

    See the difference between us & our 2 neighbors? One safeguards the others’ cultures & the other two destroy & try to erase our past.
    Now tell me which one is better & who needs to change?PLEASE!

    • thanks for sharing this VTiger (I did not know).

      Kudos to Hurriyet for sending someone to Yerevan to do the background and publishing the story (might be Vercihan herself: she is Armenian, and she speaks Armenian fluently)

      I will put the Music library on my list to support with available funds..
      We need to help preserve it of course.

  38. VTiger, Armenians are prone to love more than to hate, to education for education sake, and openness of mind and heart that at times gives too much freedom to those who would take advantage of this openness. Our term “khnamee” which lovingly describes the relationship between families through marriage demonstrates our tendency toward inclusiveness! Does any other nation have a term like this to show family closeness toward extended ‘in-laws’? I am proud to know that our sense of culture and art guides us to guard the treasures around us, despite the hate thrown our way. Thanks for sharing this news.

  39. AR
    I am sure we use many Armenian words and we will continue to use them . If we didn’t have many Armenian words in our language I would think something must be wrong with us. If you take away non-English words from the language, what you would have got left?

    My point wasn’t the prove that we do not use any Armenian words but expose that you lied in this particular case.

    I also get the impression that in the dashnak holy bible

  40. AR

    I also get the impression that the Dashnak holy bible says that if you tell Turks that they do not look like Mongolian, Turks will look at the mirror and realize the reality and melt away immediately.Unfortunately, I haven’t seen more obsessed people with the race, colour and the Mongolian stuff other than Armenian people. Have you ever seen a black African Turk? I met a few nice black African ladies who are more Turkish than many people

    • That is unfortunate for them J the Turk is not it? Especially when they associate themselves with you. you are not the best person to go to when it comes to Armenians and history …. They need someone who can share the accurate information and not have bias and denialists blood in them.. Sorry to say…

      Can you please tell me what Armenian words Turks use please? I am curious..

      Thanks

    • John the Turk,

      My goal is not to have you melt away. My goal is to turn on the light bulb in your brain that we ARmenians and you Turks have the same ARMENIAN mother. And you (your ancestors) decided to kill your half brothers and sisters (us ARmenians) because you had a different Fatrher (Mongolians).
      What is done is done! But!!!!!!! If you don’t admit what your anscestors did to us and appologize then we will never forgive you.

      It has nothing to do with being obsessed with race or colour. And remember that denying a genocide is the same as continuing a genocide. It will backfire to you guys sooner or later. The only way to prevent it from happening is to recognize the AG. You don’t need to be a genius to understand that.

  41. To Alan Cartwrite,
    I believe I understood you well enough.You desire/expect a catastrophy(football size hail,etc) in order that mankind undergo a change to the better.Be kind instead of evil,no boundaries,all equal etc.,kisses and love all around(last two wrods a bit sarcasti,please excus..).
    No such thing is forthcoming.Like I wrote ¨soñañndo tambien uno vive¨ keep it up if it pleases you. Adding my bit, that there has always been ¨power(s) that have corrected WRONGDOERS…
    WANT AN EXAMPLE?
    The WWII allies, The U.S.,GB.Russia united to root out Hiltler´s ultra nationalism Nazim…
    Who knows -I wished to imply or suggdst-that perhaps one of the above (still powers…may wish to teach great Turkey a lesson???
    That simple.No,Not invade and Bombard it ,but A TOTAL SANCTION style or complete ISOLATION FROM THE U.N. and other such…

  42. Boyajian, also ‘khnamagal’ or ‘khnamagaloutyoun’…These are subtle beauties of our language which springs out of our national character.
    Another example of being prone to love more is the family name ‘Nahadagyan’ of this museum’s director. As you know ‘nahadag’ means massacred & martyr, which means that she is from the family of the massacred…
    What a soul she’s got! Yours is the same!

  43. Avery, definitely at present a lot of such institutions & their dedicated employees in Armenia need financial help & technical support. My available support goes for the education of the young talented musicians from both Artsakh & Armenia. Please google Anush Hovhannissian & see her achievements.

  44. {“Unfortunately, I haven’t seen more obsessed people with the race, colour and the Mongolian stuff other than Armenian people.”}

    [A quest for the historical Atatürk]
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=a-quest-for-the-historical-ataturk-2011-08-05

    Some excerpts from the article:

    {“Atatürk promoted extravagant theories that defined the Turks as the seed of all ancient civilizations and the best of the “brachycephalic Alpine race” (the term referred to a particular skull type). No wonder, with Atatürk’s orders, many “racial” studies were carried out, in which Turkish skulls, of the living or the dead, were measured. The Kemalist researchers were particularly delighted, when, in 1935, they opened up the tomb of Sinan, the great Ottoman architect of Armenian or Greek origin, to measure his skull and to discover that he “was not only culturally, but racially Turkish.”}

    The man is revered as a demi-God in modern Turkey.
    His portrait hangs in every public place.

    Q.E.D.

    • well done Avery jan.. well done…

      of course J the Turk is talking out of his you know what.. but he forgets that he is not talking to bunch of kids who do not know what Turkey is all about and what she breed in her dark but yet open corners…

  45. “she was busy showing off her plastic surgery job on her lips eyes and nose among other places (not to say they didnt do a good job) is not a great example my turkish american peace loving but i can cut your throat if given a chance.”

    GAYANE Hanım,

    i too watched the clip but could not notice the plastic job she has done. You seem experienced with that.. Have you ever ?

    if given a chance, would you cut my throat also ? or only Eren’s ?

    i have a sharp knife (made in Bursa ) , you need it ?

    • Because your brain capacity is limited Necati Xhanum.. i won’t get into details with you as it will be waste of my time…

      actually i am surprised you did not catch that Necati Xhanum.. being you and your nation is as fake as it can get stealing everyone else’s identity and making it on your own…

      and your comment about cutting your throat or only Eren’s does not even deserve a reply..but then again we know both know who the physco is on these pages… with or without your sharp tool…

      have a nice day…

    • AR,

      Gayane Hanım

      You want to cut off my head … why ?

      you want to cut off the heads of all Turks ? why ?

      Do you need an automatic cutting machine ?

    • Gayane Hanım,

      if an armenian would ever cut my throat , i would prefer YOU cutting my throat so that i could look in deep your eyes before die.. and see what kind of hatred is there..

      i would not move .. keep silence …and just wait for you sharpen your knife ..

      because you are the first armenian speaking out frankly..

      Avery is a man but always plays with the words.. he is not as much brave as you are..

      so , i respect you , my angel of death..

    • I believe this is the appropriate time for this quote: “you live because it is illegal to kill you.”

    • Necati,

      I am assuming that Gayane’s comment was sarcastic. She just counteracted Eren’s fake peace loving. She did not mean to cut anyone’s throat.

      Please, stop dramatizing.

      We all know that Turks cut our ancestors’ throats and deprived them from their own land that they lived for 4000 years. Armenians were robbed by Ottoman Turks in every imaginable and unimaginable way.

      Again, please stop indulging in self-dramatization!

      After reading all your comments full of hatered, you have no moral right to act as a victim.

      I am surprised you did not get what Gayane meant in her initial post.

    • Necati,

      When did I tell you that I want to cut your head?????
      You must have had a bad dream after my previous comments, lol, relax dude.

    • Here is what Gayane actually wrote: {“Eren by providing the video of a woman who took almost 3 minutes to start singing because she was busy showing off her plastic surgery job on her lips eyes and nose among other places (not to say they didnt do a good job) is not a great example my turkish american peace loving but i can cut your throat if given a chance.”}

      This was after a long chain of comments preceding it.

      Eren first wrote he is a “peaceful Turkish American”, then wrote {“If you want to fight, we can fight.”} in a later post.
      Gayane was responding to that incongruence. Her sentence was meant to read thus: {‘not a great example, my Turkish American (allegedly) peace loving (friend), but “I can cut your throat if given a chance” (kind of guy)‘ } (in quotes.), sarcastically.

      The pronoun “I” means Erin, not Gayane, when written in that context: one of the subtleties of the English language.

      And someone who has openly stated that he hates “gaymenians” and considers it normal to insult an Armenian poster’s dead Grandmother in most vile language, cannot be beneath manufacturing a fake dramatization based on his poor grasp of English and a warped worldview.

      As I have written previously: the man needs competent profession help.

    • I agree with Avery’s interpretation above. I hope we can we stop feeding the beast with our attention? He degrades this site with his ravings intended to stir others up. Let’s ignore him.

    • Thank you Sella jan for your accurate description of Necatis idiotic dramatization because she knew exactly what my post was referring to yet she cut and pasted “i will cut your throat” part and posted a message on todays zaman saying how much Armenians spread hatred and fascism on our pages and she can prove so many examples like that. Only a person with evil heart and drenched in hatred toward Armenians would take that far and not only mistepresent my statement by using partial comment but also putting Armenians in a very unpleasant place.

      This is how this lunetic works. Its a good thing she was caught and i replied to her accusations but have to go back and check whether or not it was posted.

      Avery jan thank you very much for clarifyng it for our notorious Necati cause obviously she is playing a game that she cant win. Slapping her with details and catching her red handed as we always do hopefully will teach her a lesson not to screw up like that again. But then again she will continue to act vile and nasty but unfortunate for her she will always be caught.

    • “I am assuming that Gayane’s comment was sarcastic.”

      Sella,

      i asked her 2 times in two different posts. She did not answer .

      You “assume” she did not mean. but i assume she did mean it.
      and i believe she wants to, too much..

      i think , it is she , not you , who can simply say : No , i did not mean it…!

    • Necati,

      Did you read Avery’s post? He clearly explained what Gayane’s comment means. He also pointed out that you might have had some difficulties to comprehend her post.

      I do not know about you, but what Gayane said means the following to me:
      this peace loving Turk (Eren), if given a chance, will cut my (Armenians’) throat.

    • Necati… aka liar dialist

      The reason i did not respond to your hate filled and unbelievably stupid comment.. is because it did not deserve a reply.. i even said this in my first post to you

      “and your comment about cutting your throat or only Eren’s does not even deserve a reply..but then again we know both know who the physco is on these pages… with or without your sharp tool”

      But read my comment on March 14th.. hopefully that will shut you up and stop you from making up messed up stories that we both know brew in your head 24-7…

    • Gayane,

      You don’t owe any explanation or clarification to anyone. Certainly, not to some “superior” Turk, who feels free to insult an Armenian poster’s dead grandmother using vulgar low-life language, fill the space with fascist ravings about Armenians, Kurds, and anyone else whom he/she thinks of as a “problem” for Turks, and never ever apologize for anything. But the “superior” Turk keeps pushing for clarification from you, over and over and over again. Look at how important this Turk is. The Turk wants to hear it from you and won’t give up.

      Gayane,

      What you mean should be crystal clear to anybody with basic comprehension of English. People below that level must spend time working on their language and reading comprehension skills before demanding clarification from you. I hope you are not going to satisfy their ego.

    • Gina jan of course you are 100% correct in all your points made.

      People with serious mental problem like Necati clearly demonstrates would go that far as to accuse an Armenian to satisfy their for sick ego is lower than scum.

      Its odd to me that these denialists especially robert the turk and now necati develop these unhealthy attachment and obsession with me. Must be the withrawal syndrome where one is isolated from humans for obvious reasons in the necati’s case yet feel the need to get some attention by being nasty rude crude and outright obnoxious cause they get lonely in their dark worlds.

  46. [Turkish racism: an unpleasant story]

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=turkish-racism-an-unpleasant-story-2010-07-13

    Excerpts:

    {Last week Turkish Chief of Staff Gen. İlker Başbuğ said something very bizarre. It came in an interview on a popular TV show, where he was criticizing the harsh critics of his institution in the Turkish media. “I don’t believe,” the irritated general suddenly noted, “those people really have Turkish blood in their veins.”} (the year is 2010)

    {The First Turkish Historical Congress held in Ankara in 1932 was the first big step. In the 10-day-long official gathering, many “scientists” presented many “findings” about the origins of the Turkish people. Dr. Reşit Galip, a passionate supporter of Atatürk, defined this “superior race” as “the tall, white, thin-nosed, proper-lipped, often blue-eyed Alpin race,” known for virtues such as “civility, heroism, and artistic and social talent.”}

    Q.E.D., again.

  47. Turkey and Azerbaijan are actively financing Armenians visiting or working in Turkey to gather information about Armenia’s and Artsakh’s military. You can watch it in youtube.

    The report was uploaded by yerkirmediatv in youtube.

    Ադրբեջանի օգտին լրտեսել է մի ողջ ցանց
    /watch?v=o-03Q8Q2QLI&feature=related

    • well done Armenian NSS/KGB.

      Oh, BTW: we have people inside the Azeri government and military.

    • Dear Gayane,

      AW did not let me post a link to youtube last time that is why I removed the first part this time.

      Either you have to type http://www.youtube.com before the link I have posted or just copy and paste “Ադրբեջանի օգտին լրտեսել է մի ողջ ցանց” in the youtube search engine.

    • From yerkirmedia (It covers the video I posted earlier)

      A whole network spied for Azerbaijan: 6 people to be sentenced for treason

      17:52 . 02/12

      The trial of the sixth criminal case initiated on charge of treason is scheduled for December 5. The charge was brought against 6 people. The Azerbaijani spy network in Armenia was uncovered still back in July, when national security service coworkers arrested an Armenian citizen, Yerevan resident Karen Mehrabyan while crossing the Armenian-Georgian border.

      Besides him, 5 more people are charged with treason. Prosecutor of the Prosecutor-General’s Office Department for Cases Investigated at National Security Bodies Aram Amirzadyan prepared the indictment in this criminal.

      On December 5, three of the accused, Karen Mehrabyan, Roman Matevosyan and Ashot Chtrkyan will appear before court at Nork-Marash First Instance Court of General Jurisdiction. In Turkey they appeared in the sight of Azerbaijan’s intelligence service and received an offer to collaborate with the Azerbaijani intelligence service for payment.

      To recall, Mehrabyan was arrested in summer in Yerevan-Istanbul bus while crossing the Armenian-Georgian border. Later, the national investigation service coworkers arrested the other two. Besides them, three more people are involved in this criminal case, who are accused of being aware of the crime and not reporting about it.

      “I confirmed the indictment and submitted the case to court. The court sitting will be open, though I think certain evidence must examined in closed sitting,” Aram Amirzadyan said.

      Preliminary investigation found out that the accused triple assumed to collect information on Artsakh’s army, weapons and ammunition, equipment, military units, commanders, defense areas, engineer structures and their quantity for payment. For that purpose a corresponding mode of communication was developed between them and Azerbaijan’s special services. According to cryptography, the military units should be written “shops”, and Karabakh should be written by “K” Latin letter.

      Over the past years, 5 criminal cases on charges of treason and spying against 9 people were examined in judicial bodies in Armenia. In all the cases the state court instances found the charges grounded. Only in the criminal case brought against Murad Bojayan for spying for Turkey, his appeal reached the European Court, and was disallowed there.

      To note, 10-15 years of imprisonment and 8-15 years of imprisonment for spying are prescribed by RA Criminal Code.

      “If in the past, the special services were interested in our inner political life, now they are interested in the military situation in Artsakh and Armenia. They spend much funds for this purpose,” the prosecutor said.

      According to Aram Amirzadyan, it is these funds that attract people and involve them in treason or spying.

  48. “Nobody complains about that. Armenians all look the same. Jet black hair, olive toned skin with a wide Joker smile”

    Eren,

    Never heard of that before. Armenians do not look the same. Where did you get it? Did you visit Armenia and saw it by yourself or you read it in Turkish history books?
    More than half of my family (I mean extended family which includes over 100 people) is blue- and green-eyed. Majority of my family have very light skin. People in Europe and America always comment how light my skin is, a situation, which makes me uncomfortable every time, since I do not think that skin color is something that should be commented.

    We did have about 10 Turkish students in the graduate school I attended in Europe and all of them had olive skin. I believe that there are blue- and green-eyed Turks-I just have not met any.

    If you need a proof you have to visit Armenia. I would gladly introduce my extended family to you. Just do not forget your camera. LOL

  49. Sella jan.. these denialistts don’t realize that they are the jokers in the society with their stupid idiotic comments.. i swear.. sometimes I wonder how their mind works but then again, I dont’ even want to go there…

  50. First of all, I want to say that this is the typical behaviour of a genocidal people such as the Turks.

    The messages they displayed (“Bugun taksim yarin Erivan – bir gece ansizin gelebiliriz” “You are all Armenians, you are all Bastards” “Hrant’s bastards cannot scare us” “Agri Mountain [Mount Ararat] will be your graves” “Let Armenia be wiped out” etc.) perfectly illustrates the fact that genocidal denial goes hand in hand with genocide celebration and that the next step of genocidal denial is genocide continuation.

    Of course, I as an Armenian feel hate when I see the pictures of these evil Turks insulting, humiliating and threatening my people with extinction.

    But aren’t we to blame as well? Why are we so defensive? Do we not see that the message on the photo: “bir gece ansizin gelebiliriz” is a hint to the Azeri vampire Ramil Safarov’s deed in Budapest 8 years ago? Why have we let this act go unpunished? Why are we asleep!?

    The Turks will continue mocking us until someone decides to teach them a lesson and put them in their place.

    Until that happens they will continue spitting on us. AND WE SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF OURSELVES FOR LETTING THEM!!!

    • assuming you are Armenian, իմկարծիքով, when you write {” the typical behaviour of a genocidal people such as the Turks.”}, you include every Turk alive today.

      There are many fascistic Turks today that certainly meant what they wrote on the placards. But by implicitly ascribing that kind of behaviour to all Turks is illogical and wrong.

      And hatred clouds the mind: if you are a true Armenian patriot, you will have no hate in your heart towards either AzeriTurks or Turks: you will cause more harm to us than help if you are filled with hate.

      It appears you are someone who is trying to create unnecessary conflict.

      And if you are so full of adrenaline, please go to Artsakh and render your services at the LOC.

    • Ramil Safarov got a life sentence in Hungary, so I don’t know what you mean by unpunished. You want an eye for an eye sort of deal? What place does that have in any civilized place?

    • RVDV.. so you would rather have cold blooded murderors who murder innocent people for no reason other than for their own greed and fear of lost power without remorse be given a chance to breath even a second?? I think not.. in those instances it SHOULD be eye for an eye.

    • RDVD,

      Maybe by saying “we let this act go unpunished” Imkarciqov meant that Ramil Safarov is treated as a national hero in Azerbaijan, and we did not do enough to bring this issue up at the international level.

      Ramil Safarov is indeed treated as a national hero in Azerbaijan. This is totally unacceptable for so many reasons. Let’s put the morality aside-how can someone become a hero by killing a sleeping person? Should not a person do something heroic in order to be called a hero? What’s wrong with Azeri’s standards?

      http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/politics/details/42419/

    • Gayane: I understand why you feel that way, many do, but I just don’t agree with the death penalty.

      Sella: I agree. It doesn’t take much of a hero to kill a sleeping person. You fight wars, you lose some wars, it happens. No need to continue to kick and whine like Azerbaijan does.

    • I do rvdv sorry. People like that do not deserve to live period. They cant be considered humans

  51. Sella is right!!
    Armenians ,world over should by all means apply to relevant instances and bring it to their attn: that the Azeris HAVE MADE A HERO OF A CRIMINAL, A MURDERER OF A A VERY SPECIAL KIND…THAT PRAYS ON HIS VICTIMS ..WHEN LATTER ARE ASLEEP.
    This indeed deserves plenty of effort on our behalf in the int´l media…

  52. Despertar!! is a very significant word in spanish, more or less Stapvel in Armenian(not quite wake up,for it is not meant to address sleeping people) No,I ´m not to comment on above criminal azeri fascist …
    This has to be a VERY IMPORTANT REMINDER, THAT OF ABOVE H E R O!!!
    NOT ONLYU THEY ARE PRAISING AND MAKING HIM A HERO …BUT…
    AVERY ET AL!!!!! time to give the AHAZANG!!!!MEANS CALL TO DESPERTAR!!!
    =============================================================
    Azerbaijan is GETTING ARMED, NAY OVER – ARMED……
    WHY? to attack Russia?, OR OBJECT OF THEIR HATE SINCE 1905….WAKE UP Armenians in Diaspora and RA/Artsakh ..they did start it at above date when they massacred the TataR MOGUL(THEN THEY WERE NOT CALLED AZERIS) 5,000 INNOCENT ARMENIANS…
    they will try that again and again..but since they got well punished in 1991-4 war in Artsakh, THEY ARE PREPARING THIS TIME OVER GETTING OVER-ARMED.Big brother boasting to our West that they ARE THERE TOO!!!!
    What would a wise Armenian think of in light of this?????
    INDEED…NOT TO BE CAUGHT INA CROSS FIRE AND BE PREPARED FOR ALL EVENTUALITIES …NOTWITSTANDING ASSURANCE OF MINSK OSCE GROUPS, BIG POWER INTERESTS IN THE ZONE OF OIL….
    IF THEY WERE REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT OIL STOPPAGE B ECASUE OF A POSSIBLE WAR AGAIN,THEN THEY WOULD NOT ALLOW THEIR (ALL OF THEM) govt.s to sell and ARM THE AZERIS…..OR GREAT TURKEY…
    =======================================================
    In order not to be caught unaware AND UNPREPARED ,THEN WHAT NEXT???you guessed it GET OVER ARMED TOO!!!!
    Also,since we live in Diaspora and are not ,rather will not be at war with these ever war seeking arm seeking people, then as I have written in…………..
    http://www.armeniannews.info (click on users articles top left corner)
    Our Youth and Young should get Special residency paqssports a 100,000 or more in all consiulates of RA at $75.and spend their Summer vacations in Armenia/Artskah , besides language/history and culture, getting cadet military training thereat at special military compounds…..
    I have in depth described that those whoa t present go with back pack(sine 15 or more yrs, are tourist and pilgrim like…whereas this would be …
    also the Govt.s there ought to ahve some budget(besides what they would get through consiultates zabove $75 .-to pay to families who would welcome these youth from Diaspora…TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE.
    Otherwise what with silly FORMALITY LIKE…¨¨¨ A R I T U N ¨¨ BY THE mINISTRY OF dIASPORA AND DANCE AROUND A BONFIRE..IS A HOAX!!!
    we need to mobilize our youth /young<
    DID YOU KNOW THAT IN 1918 SOME 5,000 ARMENIAN AMERICANS WENT TO FIGHT IN sSARDARAPAT???? WAKE UP KIDS WILLYA????INSTEAD OF JUST DEMONSTRATING AGAINST TURCO AZERIS IN L.A, OR PARIS etc., think seriously about above….save your pennies to get ready to travel to Mt. Armenian country…enough with those hate infested people threatening us!!!! how many more times do they wish to attack us???
    whether in sleep of in streets of Istanbulla….unarmed Armenians?????

  53. A question to all Turks posting in AW.

    We sometimes hear some of your ilk saying that modern-day Turks are not the ones who perpetrated the genocide of Armenians in 1915, conveniently avoiding the fact that the Republic of Turkey is the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire and that according to the 1948 UN Genocide Convention, the prescribed punishment for genocide is not subject to the limitations of time and place.

    But these masses of people chanting “Today Taksim, tomorrow Yerevan, we may suddenly come there one night”, “Mount Ararat will be your grave”, and “Let Armenia be wiped out”, are they not modern-day Turks? Are these modern-day Turks not threatening the Armenians by their slogans and actions? Has anything changed at all in your wolf-like behavior since the terrorizing Seljuk warriors invaded Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau in the 11th century? Has anything changed at all in your barbarous behavior as it became known to the world witnessing Ottoman Turkish savagery when mass murdering, raping, and mutilating Armenians and other Christians?

    How can you consider yourselves a civilized nation given your historical and modern record of intolerance and savagery with regard to other peoples, religions, and cultures?!

    • Some historical actions I can defend, genocide is not included is this of course. There is no excuse for that- EVER. I will still maintain that for most of Ottoman history, Ottomans were no more savage and brutal than other empires. Empires oppress, kill, etc. We had the Spanish “genocide” debate- you think it wasn’t genocide, I respect that view, but the Spanish empire much like the Ottoman empire committed atrocities in the New World, kicked out its Jewish citizens (reconquista), etc. The point I tried to make was that Ottomans were people of their time, for better or (frequently) worse.. Again this is all excluding the AG. Now, given Turkey’s modern (since 1923) record, of oppression, genocide denial, murder, massacres, and human rights violations- yes, we are NOT very civil or very modern people. Majority of us are intolerant and hateful people- AG denial is proof. We judge others without looking in the mirror first. We are an example of hypocrisy.

    • Paul, your comments read rather like self-fulfilling vitriol than genuine questions. Needless to say you shouldn’t paint Turk with the same brush. I tend to see those who were chanting as the extremist fringe minority rather than the significant majority whom generally are not preoccupied with Armenian matters.

      Curiously however, if Turkey is the “legal successor to the Ottoman Empire” then what is stopping the ROA and individual Armenians worldwide from taking legal action now? Surely Armenians don’t have a shortage of legal talent or collective financial resources to get something happening. Perhaps you will respond with ‘Armenians are waiting for the right time’ which I have heard before. I suspect, however, the right time will never come because the legal chain has been successfully broken. Did you notice how even France went out of its way to point out that the constitutionally rejected bill was directed to the Ottoman empire and not to the Turkish republic?

    • Rvdv again with your reasoning that really does not hold water because no one comes close to what Ottomas did to Armenians and what Turks are doing now. Sorry to say but using Spanish French Americans or whatever history you want to bring in the picture is not going to change the fact

    • Gayane: yes, that’s why I said excluding genocide- of which there can be no reasoning or defense. Much of my comparison excluded the AG.

    • Zeki,

      Even if ”the legal chain has been successfully broken” it does not mean it does not exist or it can not be restored.

      If Turkey is not a legal successor to the Ottoman empire why Turkey is occupying lands that were brutality seized from Armenians and Greeks? Why Turkey is possessing all the wealth that were stolen from Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians and other Christians? Why Turkish citizens are still living in houses that belonged to Armenians? Too many whys and no answers from Turkey.
      Not only modern Turkey is the legal successor to Ottoman empire but modern Turkey is nothing more nothing less but another Turkish empire.

  54. Shantagizoum,I totally agree with you that the diaspora youth should get military training. Under current conditions sooner or later war is inevitable. All these arms pouring into the region need to be used unfortunately. Oil & armaments industry are the biggest money earners for the big countries.
    What we hear & read is that our army is quite ready & capable of giving a deadly blow to the enemy. How can we be sure about this point, can we? How can anybody guess the outcome of a future war?
    However one thing is certain that with war it will be the end of super corrupt Aliyev & his clan.

  55. Dear Paul et al…
    Unfortunately Armenians do not wish to understand the following:-
    When I wrote few days quoting myu father(may he rest in peace)that you dont say to his face to a THIEF , that¨you are a thief¨ he knows quite well that,and/or to an immoral same thing…Youare immoral…
    Thence, we are to delve far more in depth to see why these ARE ENCOURAGED to go as such.that is pretending that they are quassi Euorpean and near ready to enter EU(Brit,wish latter) in order to turn EU upside down…yes I´m talking high level politics..some still wish turks to be in the mid Balkans..witness herzegovion, kosovo Albania etc.,
    In the interim now.Am watching CNN during war in Serbia over doz yrs ago ..a Briotish officeer asks a Serb fighter,¨who are you fighting against¨comes answer¨don´t you know? Turks!!!!¨….
    So, fist of all we must somehow produce Films I was just posting re Eric bogosian on this Forum elsewhere8check it out) that we need a movie such as ¨Schindler´´s list¨¨not( Tehlirian´story,w/due respect to latter).I suggested he get hold of book and all who so desire and read book by Jack Hashian-ex state Dept. functionary, but apparently a good armenian- entitled…m a m i g o n.That is the kind of story/film we need ,read me more on that thread please.
    Otherwise, we cannot rouse awareness as to our CAYSE, with old Tehlirian or Moussa dAgh stories.This one m a m i g o n is action packed ,starts in Western armenia ends up on streets of Boston…
    What is more,we cannot pursuade/convince great Turkey is no ally to Anglo American alliance, untill they see for themselves how they get betrayed by them and or disappointed when latter, in case of need drops them and sides with say RRRusia…
    Don´t be surprised they can bring that about they are real cunning diplomats.Or they can pursuade Anglo Ams to attack Iran,so as their supremacy will continue in the area…they are that cunning.But let us wait and see what next.I do hope that FRANCE will turn the situation abit towards us , in what is Western Europe(less British isles of course)..

  56. “How can you consider yourselves a civilized nation given your historical and modern record of intolerance and savagery with regard to other peoples, religions, and cultures?!”

    Umm, that’s the problem. They DON*T consider themselves a civilized nation. The Turkish national self-image is that of a genocidal and victorious state exterminating its conquered subjects..

    When Turks talk about “Ottoman tolerance” they mean tolerance in the Islamic sense of the word: tolerance of non-Muslim minorities to live under the yataghan as slaves.

    PS. Khojali is a LIE & Nakhichevan is ours

  57. “Excluding the AG” only, RVDV? What about the Hamidian massacres in which up to 300,000 innocent Armenians were butchered? What about Adana in 1909. What about Smyrna (Izmir) in 1922? What about “dropping a couple of bombs on Armenia” uttered as recently as 1993 by none other than the president of the country? Was Turgut Ozal an Ottoman? Was Turkey an Ottoman Empire in 1993? Turks are different from all other empires in that they effectively annihilated the physical presence and almost all traces of native cultures and civilizations. Hardly ever any other empire committed such horrendous crimes against the indigenous peoples.

  58. Well, Zeki, of course to a certain degree my question contains a self-fulfilling vitriol. It couldn’t be otherwise having almost all of my maternal relatives burnt alive in a church by Turkish gendarmes. So, if you can use your Turkish mental capabilities to understand this, it’d certainly do you credit.

    You say you tend to see those who were chanting as the extremist fringe minority rather than the significant majority. Ten where is the “significant majority”? Are 30,000 who signed the “I apologize” petition a significant majority? Or maybe 100,000 who showed at Dink’s funeral were the significant majority in a 70 mln-strong country?

    You say the significant majority are generally not preoccupied with Armenian matters. If one day they become preoccupied (and that day is clearly approaching given how much attention the civilized world is now paying to the recognition of Armenian genocide), do you think this ignorant significant majority will be radically different from the wolf-like youths whom you call “extremist fringe minority”? I have serious doubts that this dormant majority will be anything different than these “extremists”, because it’s been stuffed in most of your people’s brains throughout decades that it was the Armenians who mass murdered, raped, mutilated, burnt and buried alive the Turks.

    As for what is stopping the ROA and individual Armenians worldwide from taking legal action, you and your ilk were given clear answers in the past. Individual Armenians have already taken legal actions and won many cases. BTW, what do you mean “IF” Turkey is the legal successor to the Ottoman Empire? Are you not? Maybe Turks came from the Moon? If you’re not successors, then what stops Turkey from recognizing the crimes of aliens called Ottomans? Don’t worry about the RoA taking a legal action. At the right time, in the right place, and under the favorable circumstances. Don’t also place your hopes that France won’t be consistent in pursuing genocide recognition worldwide. By tactically retracting from the process France sends a clear message to the Turks to recognize their crimes by themselves, rather than have the whole Western world do it, thus internationally reinstating the Ottoman Turkish nation as a nation of mass murderers, rapists, child-killers, and demonic torturers.

    • {“ I tend to see those who were chanting as the extremist fringe minority rather than the significant majority whom generally….. “}

      The false narrative being currently promoted by official and unofficial Turkey that it was a handful of extremists at Taksim with the racist slogans, is belied by the undeniable, inconvenient fact that Turkey’s Interior Minister was there, made a speech, and did not say one word condemning the placards, thereby endorsing the message of hate and violence. AK Party members were there. The signs were prominently displayed all around Istanbul weeks – that is correct, weeks – before the event (according to Mr. Mustafa Akyol of Hurriyet Daily News). Everything was planned well in advance. Does anyone believe Turkish authorities had no prior knowledge of the placards ?

      Various surveys done recently in Turkey clearly show Turks becoming progressively less tolerant of Christians in their midst. (World Values Survey 2011: 82 percent have negative opinion of Christians). So, this was no isolated incident. And 82 percent is not a minority of Turks: it is a super majority. There are many righteous Turks, but they are the ones in the minority – not the hatemongers.

    • Paul,

      I think you should read RVDV’s posts as the work of an individual, quite a well meaning one at that, instead of the personification of an abstract world historical
      evil. He has signed the apology and affirmed the Genocide. He has bent over backwards to be polite and restrained while responding to attacks based on things he didn’t do, and attitudes he does not hold.

      He signed the apology in his own name, which makes him a target. if the curent veneer of democracy and free speech is wiped clean by the Generals or the other parts of the deep state, he will be at risk. Actually, if he was in Turkey today, he would be at risk as a supposed traitor.

      Let’s at least separate our friends from our enemies.

    • I would not call him as our friend just yet JDA..just cause he says Genocide and says it happened, it does not mean he is our friend..

      there were things that he said created confusion and raised doubt…

      no one is being rude or bullying rvdv but it also does not mean we have to call him our friend and not challenge his comments we don’t agree with..

      Just my own opinion…

    • Paul, yes, both those who signed the ‘apology’ and those recently protesting are likely to be in the minority to answer your question.

      Also, I don’t dispute that the Republic is the historical successor to the OE. However, you should distinguish between historical successor and “legal successor” (as you introduced on your original post). I’m not aware of any nation or state specifically holding the republic of Turkey responsible in any of their resolutions. If there are, please enlighten me. So even if Turkey recognized the AG tomorrow I’m not convinced any serious legal ramifications would follow (in my opinion, why the political establishment chooses to follow a confrontational approach with other countries is not something I agree with).

      It is no accident that the worldwide recognition campaign is geared to political outcomes. The right time has certainly passed (following the death of the OE) and there is no right place (because no international body exists to deliver and execute judgment). So what favorable circumstances were you relying on?

    • Thank you JDA for the support.

      Gayane, I havent said things that have caused doubt- people here have drawn illogical conclusions from what I have said created doubt about my intentions. I am trying to be on your side, I want to be on your side, but how do you expect me to be on your side if you’re not willing to trust me? There was even debate if JDA was a Turk because he said somethings people didn’t agree with. There are some serious trust issues that need to be addressed.

    • to Zaki,

      Noyan Tapan
      Armenians Today
      Apr 24 2006

      YEREVAN, APRIL 24, NOYAN TAPAN – ARMENIANS TODAY. RA President’s
      Press Service provided Noyan Tapan Robert Kocharian’s address on the
      occasion of the day of memory of the Armenian Genocide victims. The
      address reads: “Dear compatriots, Today is the day of commemoration
      of the Armenian Genocide victims. The Ottoman Turkey and its legal
      successor bear full responsibility for this crime. The whole future
      history of the Armenian people having experienced the Genocide bore the
      hard consequences of the committed crime. The pain is stronger as we
      also have to struggle for recognition and condemnation of that black
      page of our history. The Republic of Armenia as the one expressing
      the national interests of Armenians living both in their homeland and
      spread all over the world will continue this struggle. We are grateful
      to the countries, organizations and individuals who support us. The
      consciousness that this is a global issue and the most efficient way
      of preventing such crimes becomes deeper year by year. The struggle
      of the Armenian people has no implication of revengefulness. We are
      looking forward as the best answer to the negationism should be a
      firm statehood, Armenia’s prosperity and progress”.

  59. I re-read your post. What “some” historical actions by Turks can you defend, even if you admit that genocide is not included in this? Please lay them out. Start from the beginning, i.e. the invasion of Central Asian Seljuk nomads into the territories inhabited by civilized sedentary peoples of Asia Minor and the Armenian Highland. I still maintain, and am ready to supply historical evidence, that for the most of Ottoman history, Ottoman Turks were savage and brutal as compared to other empires. The most distinctive characteristic of Ottoman Turks as compared to other empires is that at the end of their colonization period they have physically wiped out—in the most barbarous and horrendous forms—all of the indigenous Christian populations inhabiting Asia Minor. Proof? How many Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians are there in modern Turkey and what is the reason that millions of natives have evaporated from their ancestral lands?

    • Proof is not necessary, you can find evidence of negative, I can find evidence of positive. And what’s the point anyways, seeing as neither of us will change our opinions. The biggest of the crimes occurred during the decline of the empire- 1828 on. I will remind you that under Byzantine rule, the Armenian church- being deemed as heretical- was not allowed to operate in Constantinople.

      ” One eye-witness, Father de Guyan, describes the predicament of the refugees thus:
      It was not only the winter cold that was causing torture and death to the deportees. The greatest suffering came from hunger. The provisions which the deportees had brought with them were soon consumed… The children were crying for food or milk, none of which existed, because the women’s breasts had dried up from hunger… Many women, hungry and exhausted, would leave their famished children on the roadside, and continue their tortuous journey. Some would go to nearby forests in search of something to eat. Usually they would not come back. Often those who died, served as food for the living.”

      This is not a story from the Armenian genocide- it is the story of what the Safavid Empire did to 300,000 people- mostly Armenian in the Ararat region in 1605. And to further harm the Ottomans, Shah Abbas ordered the land and towns in the Ararat region to be burned- in 1606 Armenians constituted just 20% of Ararat. So when I say Ottoman were people of their time, I don’t just mean when compared to Europeans. When I say Ottomans were people of their time, I’m not saying they were good, moral, upstanding citizens of the world.

  60. RVDV,

    Armenians suffered under various invaders and colonizers—whether Parthians, Romans, Byzantines, etc. No doubt about it. But you consistently and, I fear, intentionally, omit the ONE major characteristic that stands out as distinctive when the comparison of the plight of Armenians under the Ottoman Turkish colonization is made. In none of previous colonization periods were the Armenians deliberately annihilated en masse as a national, ethnic, religious, and racial group. The atrocities that you’ve dug from the Safavid Persian period were horrendous, but nonetheless they have not resulted, nor were it the intention of Shah Abbas, in the total extermination of Armenians and their historical presence on their ancestral lands. The intention was to use the Armenian factor against the Ottomans, unfortunately, in some instances, in horrendous forms. But only Ottoman Turks, however hard you try to prove the opposite, had the state-sponsored deliberate policy of total physical annihilation of Armenians and other native Christians of Asia Minor. In that, Ottoman Empire is DISTINCTLY different from other empires.

    I’d be interested to know as to what “evidence of positive” you’d be presenting in defense of the Ottoman Empire in its treatment of native peoples. Start with the invasion of the Central Asian Seljuk nomads and the siege of Constantinople by Ottoman Turks, if you will. Was all that “positive” for the native peoples?

    • If you want evidence of some positive, you need look no further than the 10th Sultan of the Ottoman Empire- Suleiman. You know, the guy who implemented radical reforms in the Ottoman legal system, including laws that protected minority interests. From Lord Kinross, British historian: “His (Suleiman’s) Kanune Raya, or “Code of the Rayas”, reformed the law governing levies and taxes to be paid by the rayas, raising their status above serfdom to the extent that Christian serfs would migrate to Turkish territories to benefit from the reforms.

      Also: “The Sultan also played a role in protecting the Jewish subjects of his empire for centuries to come. In late 1553 or 1554, on the suggestion of his favorite doctor and dentist, the Spanish Jew Moses Hamon, the Sultan issued a firman formally denouncing blood libels against the Jews.”

      These law reforms lasted for over 300 years. I’d say these were positive examples of how Ottomans treated the minority populations.

  61. On Shah Abbas and Armenians:

    {When Shah Abbas the Great (1587 – 1629) transferred a large proportion of the population of Armenia to Persia in the first years of the 17th century, his motives were as varied as the consequences of his act.

    Having moved his capital from Qazvin to Isfahan in 1598, he then conducted a series of campaigns against the Ottoman Turks in Armenia and Georgia. After his initial successes, he prudently decided to depopulate the area between the two empires, so that the Turks would be deprived of territory into which they might forage before engaging in any further hostilities. A more ruthless victor than Shah Abbas might have annihilated the local population but instead he transferred it to Persia, where he rightly foresaw that the emigrants would prove to be an asset to the economy. The peasants were settled in the Persian countryside, particularly in the silk-growing province of Gilan bordering the Caspian Sea, to which he sent 30.000 families. Other country-folk were settled in villages south and west of Isfahan, where they served as a buffer against the incursions of the Bakhtiyari tribes.}

    {Many travelers remarked on the Shah’s liberal attitude towards his Armenian subjects. He relieved them of certain taxes, and in disputes involving Moslems he was quite likely to give judgement in favour of the Armenians if he felt their cause was just. He allowed the Armenians to erect churches in Isfahan, and Julfa, as well as in the country villages. They practised their religion freely, and the dead were buried in their cemetery outside the town to the south, with appropriate ceremony and safe from derision by the Persians. This was all the more remarkable as the Persians were Shi’ites and not especially tolerant. Such patronage did not endear Shah Abbas to the more fanatical of his Moslem subjects, but he answered his critics by maintaining that the older Armenians would die off and the next generation easily converted to Islam, and that persecution would simply make martyrs of them. In the event, there were few cases of apostasy then or later, and most attempts to induce the Armenians to change their faith only served to make them hold on to it even more tenaciously. }
    (Source, book: New Julfa – The Armenian churches and other buildings. John Carswell, 1968)

    From other sources:

    {When Shah Abbas came to power in Persia in 1587, he faced threats from the Uzbeks in the east and the Ottomans in the west. He made peace with the Ottomans in 1590 to allow himself time to defeat the Uzbeks before turning his attention again to the Ottomans. He needed to augment the number of soldiers in his army, and Persia needed skilled artisans and merchants. To address these problems, Shah Abbas ordered the forcible removal of all Armenians from the regions of Van, Bayazit, and Nakhichevan. Over 300,000 people were marched across the Arax River into Persia. The land they had left was laid waste so that the Ottomans could not benefit from it. The wealthier Armenians were taken to Isfahan, and a new city was built for them nearby, which they named New Julfa in honor of the town from which they had come, Julfa. These Armenians established schools and churches, developed through their previous European contacts a thriving trade, and plied the creative arts. From these communities, Armenians migrated to India and more distant parts of Asia, extending their merchant trade.}

    Commentary:

    Certainly, the forced relocation of such large numbers of Armenians was no picnic. Thousands did die on the way. But the majority made it.
    A thriving, well-to-do Iranian-Armenian community was eventually created.

    As Carswell noted above: Abbas could have simply exterminated the local population. Or could have just destroyed the crops, buildings, livestock, etc and left the people to the mercies of Ottoman invaders: is there any doubt that not a single Armenian would be left alive in the area ?

    That is why there is no collective memory amongst Armenians of any ill-feelings towards Persians/Iranians. (None that I am aware of).
    On the contrary, Iranians and Armenians have had very cordial relations. We share much – vocabulary, cuisine, music, etc. We have freely borrowed from each other and both our people are richer for it.

    During the Karabagh War, Islamic Republic of Iran provided massive humanitarian aid to landlocked, blockaded Armenia and Artsakh, despite coming under heavy criticism from some Islamic quarters for “…siding with Christians against Moslems”.
    During the same period, modern Republic of Turkey massively assisted Azerbaijan in the latter’s attempt to ethnically cleanse and exterminate Armenians of Artsakh.

    Yes, Empires at the time did commit atrocities routinely.
    But to try to dilute the unique destructiveness and evil that Turkic tribes brought with them when they invaded from their homelands in East and Central Asia, is an exercise in futility.
    Even today, Islamic Republic of Iran is no threat to any of its neighbors: they have not attacked anyone in centuries.
    Modern Republic of Turkey threatens, threatens to invade, or has invaded its neighbors as matter of course.

    Read the following snippets of Shah Abbas’s treatment of Armenians and contrast it with what Ottoman Turks did:

    “He relieved them of certain taxes, and in disputes involving Moslems he was quite likely to give judgement in favour of the Armenians if he felt their cause was just.”

    “He allowed the Armenians to erect churches in Isfahan”

    “…attempts to induce the Armenians to change their faith…” (just “induce”: no ‘convert or die’, a la Turka)

    “The wealthier Armenians were taken to Isfahan, and a new city was built for them nearby, which they named New Julfa”

    • Part of the original millet system (pre-1828) was that in exchange for higher taxes and being second class citizens, Armenians, Greeks, etc. got to keep their religious autonomy. Ottomans gave Christians enough freedom to suppress widespread revolts and appease them somewhat, but limited that freedom to ensure they would always be second class.

      ““He allowed the Armenians to erect churches in Isfahan”

      And..? Ottomans allowed NO Armenian or Greek churches to be built? They allowed no Synagogues to be built? If the roles were reversed, if Armenia was controlled by the Safavids, and the Turks came in and ordered 300,000 Armenians to be moved from Ararat to say Izmir (and a thriving Armenian community in Izmir emerged later on), and several thousand died in horrible ways like my above eye witness account tells, and then the Turks proceeded to lay waste to most of the land, would you say the Turks intentions were good, or would you say atrocities and forced deportation and destruction of ancestral homeland Turks?

      What I’m doing may seem futile, perhaps it is- I know I’m biased on the issue. But the picture of total intolerance is equally futile.

    • We can play the hypothetical game all you want.

      Fact is, Ottoman Turks, then CUP Turks massacred, then exterminated Armenians – deliberately. To leave no indigenous people alive. To take our lands.

      Persians/Iranians did not.

    • RVDV,

      My comment is not directed to you by no means. I consider you a noble and fair person, and I am happy that people like you exist in Turkey or elsewhere.
      But please, do not compare Turkish people to Persians, or Persia/Iran to Ottoman empire/Turkey.

      What “Turkish government” did to Armenians can never be justified in any way. And when I say Turkish government I do not mean only Ottoman government I mean modern Turkish government as well. Thanks to Turkish government our ancestral land was brutally stolen from us, genetic pool of 1.5 million people is gone, millions of genocide survivors have been assimilated in different countries, our history and historical monuments have been destroyed and distorted, and I do not want to talk about financial losses.

      I think you do not really realize how evil Turkey has been, and still is towards Armenia even today. Turkey is thinking day and night how to annihilate Armenia. I do not know how you do not see it. In 1993 Turkey was ready to attack Armenia if Russia did not stop them. I was a child at that time, and since we lived very close to the Turkish border we could clearly see how Turkey mobilized her tanks and troops and how they have lined up close to the boarder within days. That picture will never go away from my mind.

      Why Turkey did not ratify the treaty of Serves?

      Turkey is still blockading Armenia for a third country. Turkish hypocrisy has no limits-it is O.K. for Turkey to occupy Northern Cyprus (non-Turkish land), but it is not O.K. for Armenia to liberate Artsakh (Armenian land). As if this is not enough, now Turkey is sticking her nose in Artsakh’s and Armenian’s business .

      Last but not least, Turkey is shamefully using those 17-100,000 illegal Armenian emigrants as human shields at international level whenever she gets a chance. I think it is a total disgrace for Turkey to boast how she feeds those illegal Armenians when Turkey owes Armenia/Armenians billions of dollars.

      Persians were very civilized and noble nation-even we fought wars and they oppressed us, I still consider them as a noble nation.
      The fact that Persians were very civilized nation is well documented and widely accepted by historians, something we cannot say about Seljuk or Ottoman Turks.
      Just look how Armenians are treated in Iran today and how Armenians are treated in Turkey.

    • Good post Sella:

      Greatly appreciate your eyewitness confirmation of Turkish invasion Army in 1993 at RoA border. (…some Armenian posters had doubted me when I had stated it as fact)

      A couple of clarifications, if I may:

      1) It is not 1.5 million lost from our irreplaceable genetic pool: it is at least 2 million that we know of (e.g. 300K 1895, 30K 1909; 1.5 million 1915; hidden Armenians @ Dersim massacre 1937: 70K-100K total loss (majority Kurds, but a large number of hidden Armenians as well)).

      Plus, given that Seljuk Turks invaded Armenia about 1000 AD, and started massacring and kidnapping our young women, girls and boys the cursed day they arrived, our loss of the genetic pool must be much, much larger than 2 million.

      2) Illegal RoA citizens in Turkey. (17K-100K)

      Let us not repeat the false figure of 100,000 promulgated by Turkish authorities.
      In 2009 TodaysZaman published the results of survey by Eurasia Partnership Foundation.

      [‘Report: 12,000 Armenian citizens working illegally in Turkey’ (Dec 5, 2009)]
      Their estimate was 12K-13K. Let’s up to 15K max.
      (RoA Gov says the number is about 5K; but I discount that as too few.)

      Native Turkish-Armenians are around 60K in Turkey: 100K additional Armenians would stick out like a sore thumb: not plausible at all.
      So, unless someone can provide hard evidence that there are in fact around 100K illegals, I will have to assume the number is fake.

    • Avery,

      Thanks for the clarifications.

      Loosing over 2 million Armenians from our genetic pool was truly devastating for our nation. We can never replace this loss, not in 100 and not in 1000 years. They are gone forever-except that they will forever live in our memories.

      Unfortunately, many people when comparing Jewish holocaust with Armenian genocide think that Jewish holocaust was more horrific than Armenian genocide since number of massacred people was greater in Jewish holocaust. What they do not realize is that when you are talking about Genocide numbers do not matter any more. Many people do not realize that the only reason why only 1.5 million Armenians were annihilated by Ottoman Turks, was because the Armenian population in Ottoman empire was 2-2.3 million. If Armenian population was 6 million, I have no doubt that majority of them would be exterminated.
      As a side note, when we are talking about Armenian genocide we have to state that about 75% (or whatever the correct percentage is) of Armenians were exterminated by Ottoman Turks (not only the number of people). Because some people from big counties with 100 million- 1 billion population do not understand what it means for a nation to loose 1.5 million people.

    • Excellent point Sella Jan. We should make a point to include the % of the Armenian population was wiped out.

  62. Zaki,

    If Turkey is not a legal successor to Ottoman empire, did Turkey inherit her land and wealth from Ottoman empire illegally? Please, shed some light on this issue.
    So, if tomorrow Republic of Armenia and NK will be broken down and a new Armenia State will be formed-can the newly formed state claim that she is the historical successor of Republic of Armenia and NK, and hence has no business with Azerbaijan? Or we have to wait 100 years to claim it?

  63. RVDV
    ONE SMALL,but huge in context and meaning CORRECTION in your above post. Sha Abbas of Persia did order to burn villages in western Armenia ,when retreating,but the other shot of yours as to ¨what he did to 300,000 people::¨
    Facts are not only in archives and books etc., but ALIVE to be seen.
    He ordered the Armenians to move to Ispahan area ,as he had perceived the craftsmen and artsmen in the Armenian people and their other capabilities and wanted the armenians to teach thoscrafts to his native Persians…
    He set up Julfa, New Julfa in memoroium of the other Julfa(now renderd to near ruin with the thousands of Armenian khatchkars destroyed by little brother Azerbaboons…there…) where they have stayed upto todya.Indeed thousands repatriated during 1945 REPATRIATION to RA,but quite a few still there and under the protection of the Iranian Gov.t in many ways….
    So please do not compare the Noble persian people with the wild hoards that came from the Central Russian stepps to Asia Minor…

    • Only 30,000 made it to New Julfa. The other 270,000 what? The noble Persians made them disappear?

    • No the book does not say only 30,000 made it to New Julfa: it says 30,000 FAMILIES were moved to Gilan.

      What is your non-dubious source on the number ?

    • RVDV,

      It was 30,000 families. Considering the size of families at that time it could easily be 180,000-250,000 people.

    • Something seemed wrong with the number from the beginning. It was 30,000 families as you say. My mistake.

  64. Zeki,

    If Turkey is not a legal successor to Ottoman empire, did Turkey inherit her land and wealth from Ottoman empire illegally?

    • Dear Sella and Avery,
      Permit me to throw more light on Armenians that shah Abbas removed from their habitat mainly from Nakhichevan and (Where Julfa is located) albeit some from Van and overlapping areas-this because of war w/Ottoman turkey…
      As to the immigrants being given space to live in Gilan, is erroneous.
      The Caravans were headed straight to hi (shah Abbas)capital Ispahan,where nearby town of Julfa was built to hourse the carftsmen and merchants, whereas the farmers were strewn over around the area. I have been there long ago and know for sure they were not relocated to Gilan(that foreign writer was wrong) .Very limited number of Armenians later came from the Caucauses,Baku,Tiflis(Tbilisi) and Armenia, in the aftermath of the Bolshevik incursion and these somehow later resettled in Hamadan,Teheran Ahwaz and Abadan (the oilfields ).
      As to above comment of yours that Turkey was preparing to attack ,I was at the time in Yerevan and it was Mr. Bulent Ecevit-then prime Ministre of Turkey that threatened to ENTER NAKHIJEVAN,when General Shaposhnikov, chief of the russian forces based near Armenian border with turkey that replied ¨¨Just you dare¨…
      This is well documented and in the newsprints of the time.

    • Sella jan.. Zeki can’t answer that question because he or she knows very well that her or his argument is unstable and weak…. he or she knows very well what he or she is coming back with can’t hold in court.. Turkey is and will be forever the successor of the Ottoman Empire no matter how much he or she twists matters..

    • Dear Gaytzag,

      Thanks for the information. I did not know that Turkey threatened to attack from Nakhijevan as well. But what I eyewitnessed was how Turkish tanks and troops were mobilized and lined up at the northern border of RoA, just a few miles away from Gyumri, very close to Akhuryan river. You could clearly see how Turkish tanks were moving towards Armenian border (very close). They stayed there for a few days then backed up.

  65. Hence why I question rvdv’s intention on these pages. He may sound very civilized but his comments have very subtle but yet obvious purpose of diluting what Armenians are fighting for. I could be wrong here but my hunch is close to accurate. Just as I gathered that Ragnar the Norwegian was a closet denialist and he still is no matter how sophisticated and I telligent he sounds.

    • I think the reason for your doubt is that a Turk says he doesn’t hate Armenians, supports AG recognition, and feels entitled to his own opinion on other issues, and you don’t know how to cope with that. I don’t hate you Gayane. You need to get out of the habit of thinking that anyone who ever says anything pro-Turkish is automatically anti-Armenian.

    • RVDV:

      you underestimate Gayane: it is not her (or me), but you that does not know how to cope.

      We have discussed this many times before. You yourself have admitted previously that your posts sometimes cause confusion.

      Your current post is in the same vein: you say “….a Turk says….”.
      On the one hand you say you are a Kurd, and many of your posts clearly show your pride and love for your Kurdish ancestry, yet you also claim you are a “Turk”: not a Turkish citizen mind you, but a Turk: how is that not confusing ?

      You yourself have stated previously that you are not sure yourself where you stand sometimes: how can you expect us to be ?

      You have made a strong stand on AG: thank you.
      But you have also posted comments that cause doubt and confusion.

  66. Zeki,

    Turks would do anything to evade recognition of their crime against Armenians. Now we’re told a fairy tale that Turkey is not a legal successor of the Ottoman Empire, just an “historical” successor. But the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne is wholly dedicated to legal succession matters. The Treaty led to the international recognition of the sovereignty of the Republic of Turkey as the legal successor state of the Ottoman Empire. If it were just a “historical” succession, why would there be a treaty dealing with legal matters—debts, loans, territories, borders, communications, treatment of religious minorities, etc.—related to the succession?

    What’s the next fairly tale, Turks?

    • Paul, the fact that the Lausanne Treaty dealt with legal matters is the problem as far as your concerned. That’s because once the boundaries were delineated and rights to former territories, assets, loans were renounced it ensured legal finality between Turkey and the Ottoman empire, quid pro quo. Turkey has absolutely no rights to the former territories or assets of its colonial past just as its former subjects do not have rights over its present boundaries and assets.

      Recognition is entirely separate matter. The point is recognition won’t automatically result in legal repercussions through international channels.
      Recogition may facilitate religious foundations and individuals from accessing courts for restitution of their private rights through Turkish or foreign courts. But even then privity and jurisdiction, or the lack of it by foreign courts may be a problem.

  67. “I would not call him as our friend just yet JDA..just cause he says Genocide and says it happened, it does not mean he is our friend..” said Gayane…

    RVDV,

    Do you still think you are their “best” friend ?

    • Necati,

      Yes, RVDV is our friend, something that we cannot say about you. Do you have problem with RVDV being our friend or with you not being our friend? What is exactly your problem here?

    • An armenian/kurd friendship ? no suprise…especially when we remember 80% of PKK chiefs are of Armenian origin.

    • You don’t have the right to open your dirty mouth Necati .. aka lying denialist… until you learn how to play nice and decide to join humans and become civilized,anything you say will be voided and thrown out of the window in the name of “no idiotic comments are welcomed on the Armenian Weekly, an online publication that is too sophisticated for your kind”…

      That said.. your last few posts are voided…

    • You know Necati, I’d like to see things from your point of view but I can’t seem to get my head that far up my you know what.

  68. RVDV,
    I regret it was my hasty response to your above exagerrated 300,000 Armenians displaced to New Julfa…picking up your said number.
    I cannot be sure or anyone else, there is no records of those that were forced to leave, yes forced BUT NOT KILLED OR SLAUGHTEERED.
    Quite the contrary upt untill this day Persian(Irarnians) treat Armenians Well.!!!!
    so please you take the trouble and find out how many were displaced or forced to Leave.But like I wrote above they were allowed to REPATRIATE to RA.
    Especially those from rural areas around Ispahan..that is a fact.

  69. “Part of the original millet system (pre-1828) was that in exchange for higher taxes and being second class citizens, Armenians, Greeks, etc. got to keep their religious autonomy.”

    RVDV,

    It seems to me we’re having a psychological problem in assessing events, because you tend to assess the situation of Western (Ottoman) Armenians from the point of view of the colonizer nation, whereas we assess the situation from the point of view of the colonized nation. This creates a friction.

    The exchange of privileges and obligations that you’ve set forth wasn’t a square deal, because no indigenous nation, a master of its lands for millennia, would tolerate for long being a second-class minority in exchange for religious autonomy. As a matter of fact, the religious autonomy and the use of the national language were, essentially, the ONLY rights that Armenians and other Christians were able to maintain under the loathed Ottoman regime. Mind you, even the religious autonomy was limited: distribution of Holy Bibles in the Armenian churches and the parish communities was restricted by the authorities. Outdoor religious activities were restricted. Bell tolls at the churches and monasteries were prohibited.

    I guess what I’m trying to demonstrate to you and other Turks reading this thread is that it was not a fair and square deal by the Ottoman authorities to have non-Turks and non-Muslims as subservient, unbearably-taxed, legally unprotected, and largely rightless and voiceless millets in exchange of a limited religious autonomy. Don’t try to present this as a major privilege given to non-Turks. After all, Turks understood too well that practice of religion was something that they couldn’t possibly suppress amongst significant segment of the Ottoman population, in which 2-2.5 mln people were Armenians and another several millions were Greeks, Assyrians, and Jews. Be real!

    “Ottomans gave Christians enough freedom to suppress widespread revolts and appease them somewhat, but limited that freedom to ensure they would always be second class.”

    I didn’t quite get what “freedom” in suppressing revolts gracious Ottoman Turks have given to Christians? All we read in the literature and from the recollections of our own grandparents is that Ottoman Christians, especially those living in greater numbers in rural areas, were the most vulnerable group, subject to constant pogroms, pillages, abductions, and murders by the marauding Turkish, Kurdish, and Circassian bands. Also, how was it a “freedom” in suppressing unidentified revolts, if non-Turks and non-Muslims were barred from bearing arms? Makes no sense.

    “Ottomans allowed NO Armenian or Greek churches to be built? They allowed no Synagogues to be built?”

    Certainly, under the limited religious autonomy, a few churches occasionally were built, but the prevailing majority of Armenian churches, monasteries, and cathedrals were built in the PRE-Ottoman times. That’s the fact.

    “If the roles were reversed, if Armenia was controlled by the Safavids, and the Turks came in and ordered 300,000 Armenians to be moved from Ararat to say Izmir (and a thriving Armenian community in Izmir emerged later on), and several thousand died in horrible ways like my above eye witness account tells, and then the Turks proceeded to lay waste to most of the land, would you say the Turks intentions were good, or would you say atrocities and forced deportation and destruction of ancestral homeland Turks?”

    You stubbornly miss or, as I suspect, deliberately refuse to understand that the transfer of Armenians under Shah Abbas as a gesture aimed at halting the Ottoman expansion and the forced deportations of Armenians without food and water to the sunny Syrian deserts to die of starvation, accompanied with mass murder, rape, mutilation, forced religious conversions, and indiscernible barbarous tortures and killings of innocent adults, children, and the unborn by Ottoman Turks were DIVERGENTLY different things. What Turks did to the Armenians was a deliberate, state-sponsored policy of physical extermination of a nation group, read: the GENOCIDE. A mere comparison of Turks’ genocidal policy with Shah Abbas’ tactical population transfer and his subsequent fair treatment of Armenians would give any unbiased observer a clear picture. The problem is that you appear to be a biased observer. Hence, the nature of some of your remarks.

    “But the picture of total intolerance is equally futile.”

    It wasn’t a total intolerance. It was a tolerance to the extent that non-Turks remained oppressed, subservient, and voiceless.

    RVDV, why do you think most of the oppressed native people generally rise against the colonizing oppressors, as history has shown us?

    • Good post Paul, I actually agree with most of your points. I am biased so maybe do get overly defensive at times.
      You mentioned “Turks understood too well that practice of religion was something that they couldn’t possibly suppress amongst significant segment of the Ottoman population.”

      I agree, and I never implied that they did it out of the kindness of their hearts. But what you said right there backs up what I said. I said “Ottomans gave Christians enough freedom to suppress widespread revolts and appease them somewhat.”

      Granted freedom probably wasn’t the most accurate word to describe it- but these basic rights were given to appease and suppress violence. If they tried to completely oppress religious freedom, not only would the Ottomans have failed, they would have had to resort to violent measures to frighten people into compliance. What you would then have is a bunch of fed up people who hate you, and those people would also side with any foreign power who promised them the basic rights they deserve- like 1604 Yerevan with Shah Abbas proved.

      Regarding: “RVDV, why do you think most of the oppressed native people generally rise against the colonizing oppressors, as history has shown us?”

      Whether they are tolerated or not, treated fairly or not, no people want to be ruled by a foreign/ outside people.

  70. Rvdv reminds me of Ragnar. One difference is rvdv openly say Genocide and ragnar plays around the word and does not firmly say or believe it. but that means nothing cause how i see it is both are bringing up subject matters that throws off the main topic.

    Hence why doubts and confusion.

  71. “Turkey and Azerbaijan are actively financing Armenians visiting or working in Turkey to gather information about Armenia’s and Artsakh’s military. ”

    You are right SELLA ,

    so,

    All Armenians living in Turkey should leave..
    All Turks living in Armenia should also leave..

  72. Necati,
    Don´t you think you are being pretty much like those on taksim square???
    inciting hatred and bragging with your country´s powerfull position…
    Have in mind frist of all that few Armenians live in Turkey nowadays.if you mean those in Constantinople(Istanbulla, by your definition) city is famed as being Byzantian,Greek, Euro and inhabioted by Armenians there BEDFDORE THE TURCO TATARS CAME IN…so be nice a bit to your guests now.
    After all your Arkadashlar aspire to and try to pass as a European people…
    As those Armenians ,already islamizesd living in Western Armenia, they have endured all kinds of hardships and can go on for sometime too…
    What is moe most Armenians who came to work in Istanbulla, are hired into Armenian families there..and/or more or less civilized Turks…
    So easy man easy…
    getting fired up like that won´t solve the Main issues …..

  73. Necati,

    Where were the Turks when Armenians have resided in the lands of what is now Eastern Turkey and Cilicia? Also, the only “Turks”, so to speak, living in Armenia (you mean the current Republic?) were some unidentified Muslims or Caucasus Tartars, as they were known before the 20th century, who then stole the name of a historical Parthian/Persian province of Azerbaijan and became “Azerbaijanis”. However, in contrast to Armenians in the Republic and in the eastern provinces of modern-day Turkey and beyond, they have never been indigenous inhabitants of those lands.

    Logically, those who should leave are those who came as aliens to the lands inhabited by native peoples. Alien hordes that intruded into the territory of Asia Minor, may I remind you, were Seljuk and then Ottoman Turks. So, who is it that should leave, Necati? Think twice and answer for yourself.

    • Paul jan.. unfortunately Necati does not have the ability to think.. we already know that by her many idiotic posts.. so anything thought provoking will go unanswered by her….

  74. RVDV, I appreciate your straight forward acceptance of Turkey’s responsibility for the genocide and your assertion that Turkey should apologize and make ‘appropriate’ compensation. However, I think Paul made an excellent point above when he differentiated your viewpoint from most Armenians here, i.e.; colonizer vs. colonized.

    Clearly, you are proud of the Ottoman history which you have been taught that depicts ‘accommodations’ for minorities, innovations in social stratification, and a modicum of religious tolerance. But you certainly can’t expect groups with historical precedence in the region for thousands of years (like Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians) to be satisfied with less than equal rights within their own lands granted to them by invaders. Certainly they were happy to receive concessions that closed the privilege gap, but that didn’t stop them from eventually seeking to regain their full, independent status and God-given rights to freedom and self-determination. Why shouldn’t they?

    And why should Turks be so proud of their random pockets of tolerance intended to appease the masses and prevent riots? It was expedient and somewhat advanced, perhaps even clever, but far short of sufficient and eventually devolved into resentment on both sides. Can you really call it enlightened to invade, pillage, rape and subjugate? Subjugation is contrary to human nature and is unsustainable in the long run as history has repeatedly shown. Wouldn’t it be better to be proud of having embraced one’s history and learned from one’s mistakes and advanced one’s society to be democratic and inclusive?

  75. He or she is from Hamshen but denies his her origin.
    Those who deny their origins / roots have no origins / roots… This is an Arabic proverb from sixth century AD.

  76. The hub of this discussion, as I understand it, RVDV, is to show, as dispassionately as possible, the difference in treatment of the natives by the colonizers. You fail, I’m sorry to say, to support your argument that any empire treats subjugated native peoples in a virtually similar way. Although there are, undoubtedly, some common characteristics, this argument is far from truth. Here’s why. Although horrendous atrocities do occur during colonization (South and North America under the New Europeans, India under the British, Maghreb under the French, to take a few), only in the case of the Ottoman Empire has the colonization resulted in the deliberate mass extermination of the natives. Even though Native Americans suffered immensely, you still have vast and populous reservations in the US and developing Latin American nations in the South. You have Indians soon becoming the most heavily populated nation in the world despite British atrocities at the time. You have Arabs in the Maghreb countries (Algeria, Tunis) almost unaffected by occasional atrocities of the French. But you have virtually NONE Armenian, Greek, or Assyrian native group residing in modern-day Turkey. And the one still existing, the Kurds, have to fight the Turks for survival as a distinct ethnic group on daily basis. Shouldn’t this be thought-provoking for the Turks, to say the least?

    • I acknowledge that none of the other colonizers have committed a crime on the level of the AG, and the basis of my argument was based on events/principles that EXCLUDED the Armenian genocide, my argument was really based on pre- late 19th century Ottoman Empire- before the inevitable decline, before the rise of nationalism.

  77. No, Zeki, the fact that the Lausanne Treaty dealt with legal matters is the problem as far as all signatories to the Treaty were concerned. In a disgraceful attempt to evade responsibility for the many crimes against humanity that your Ottoman predecessors have committed, you come up with a bizarre idea of quid pro quo, i.e. “because the boundaries were delineated and rights to former territories, assets, loans were renounced by the Treaty, it has ensured legal finality between Turkey and the Ottoman empire”. I’m certain that any international lawyer will kill this gibberish of yours at one fell swoop, because in international law legal succession of states not only refers to the change of boundaries and transfer of rights, obligations, and property from a prior state (the predecessor state) to the new one (the successor state), but, according to the UN Commission on Human Rights, “the doctrine of legal continuity and principles of state responsibility make a successor state liable (repeat: liable!) in respect of claims arising from a prior state’s violations.”

    This applies in the case of Armenian genocide and its consequences for the survivors and their descendants, because state responsibility attaches to the successor state itself and doesn’t allow for a need to start from the beginning. Thus, it was consistent for Germany to assume full responsibility for the crimes committed by the Third Reich; for France to repair the wrongs committed by the Vichy government during the Nazi occupation; and for Norway to grant restitution for confiscations and injuries perpetrated against the Jews during the Quisling regime.

    You say “Turkey has absolutely no rights to the former territories or assets of its colonial past just as its former subjects do not have rights over its present boundaries and assets.” Dead wrong. The Vienna Convention on Succession of States in Respect of State Property, Archives and Debts provides that a succession of states does not affect the rights and obligations of creditors. Thus, the claims of the Armenians for their wrongfully confiscated properties, bank accounts, and insurance indemnities don’t disappear with the change from the Ottoman empire to the Kemalist government.

    You say “The point is recognition won’t automatically result in legal repercussions through international channels. Recognition may facilitate religious foundations and individuals from accessing courts for restitution of their private rights through Turkish or foreign courts.” Dead wrong again. Since both Turkey and Armenia are states parties to the 1948 UN Genocide Convention, Armenia can at the right time invoke article VIII, which provides that any contracting party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action as they consider appropriate for the suppression of genocide, suppression meaning not just retributive justice for a crime, but its consequences as well. This entails, besides punishing the guilty, providing restitution and compensation to the surviving generations. Armenia may also invoke article IX of the Convention, which provides that “Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application, or fulfillment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide, shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.” You point that restitution of private rights must be done through Turkish or foreign courts, therefore, doesn’t hold water.

    Do you care to answer the following questions?

    If modern Turkey has transcended the consciousness of the Ottoman Empire, why would it in any way object to Armenian mass murders being labeled as genocide?

    If modern Turkey no longer identifies itself with or as the Ottoman Empire, what difference could it possibly make to modern Turkey if the Ottoman Empire–a dead empire from the past–had committed genocide?

    It should be an irrelevant matter, if Turkey has indeed transcended its past. Zeki, has Turkey transcended its past or is it still hanging on to the sense of perceived importance that the Ottoman Empire had for four centuries?

    No Armenian would seriously say that modern Turks are guilty of genocide, as no Jew would seriously say that modern Germans are guilty of holocaust. Yet it’s a fact that modern Germans have transcended their Nazi past to a far greater extent than modern Turks have transcended their Ottoman past. That’s seems to be a problem with you, too, as a Turk.

    • Paul, the Vienna Convention on Succession of States was promulgated in 1978. Unless a successor State agrees otherwise, the 1978 Convention does not apply to a succession of States which occurs before its entry into force (6 November 1996). I would suggest the treaty appears to be a weak proposition for making any claims against nation states founded pre 1978.

      In respect of the 1948 UN Genocide convention, I would be inclined to accept Geoffrey Robinson QC’s opinion. In particular, refer to paragraph 29 in respect of restrospective application of the treaty – “I do not consider the Genocide Convention retroactive”. So even if the term “genocide” may be applied the legal consquences won’t follow.

      http://groong.usc.edu/Geoffrey-Robertson-QC-Genocide.pdf

      Your questions deal with the political/social dilemma confronting Turkey. I don’t have much to offer on that but I would suggest that when the following three options where on the table:
      1) Acknowledge
      2) Silence
      3) Deny
      in my personal opinion, successive governments chose the wrong option.

  78. But, RVDV, haven’t I invited you to discuss the pre-late 19th century Ottoman treatment of the natives? I maintain that Turks have consistently mistreated Christians irrespective of the rise of nationalism, starting from the terrorizing invasion of the Seljuk Turks and throughout the Ottoman centuries. I’m ready to supply evidence in support of such an argument. Do please care to answer one related question. How do you explain the Hamidian massacres of 1894-96, if the apex of the Armenian nationalism falls at the time span during and after these massacres? There were no radical nationalistic proclamations or actions by the Armenians before these massacres. None of the Armenian political parties (the Dashnaks were formed as recently as 1890) advocated anything less than civil and agricultural improvements in the Armenian provinces. One minor uprising against unbearable taxes, a clearly non-nationalistic measure, sparked a disproportionate reaction of the maniacal Abdulhamid resulting in butchery of up to 300,000 Armenians. How do you explain that? Was there any “nationalism” in sight?

    • Yes, you did invite me to discuss pre 19th century: and on March 17th I said regarding this:

      “If you want evidence of some positive, you need look no further than the 10th Sultan of the Ottoman Empire- Suleiman. You know, the guy who implemented radical reforms in the Ottoman legal system, including laws that protected minority interests. From Lord Kinross, British historian: “His (Suleiman’s) Kanune Raya, or “Code of the Rayas”, reformed the law governing levies and taxes to be paid by the rayas, raising their status above serfdom to the extent that Christian serfs would migrate to Turkish territories to benefit from the reforms.

      Also: “The Sultan also played a role in protecting the Jewish subjects of his empire for centuries to come. In late 1553 or 1554, on the suggestion of his favorite doctor and dentist, the Spanish Jew Moses Hamon, the Sultan issued a firman formally denouncing blood libels against the Jews.”

      These law reforms lasted for over 3 centuries.”

      Regarding nationalism- it wasn’t Armenian nationalism that caused Turks to attack Armenians, it was Turkish nationalism (beginning in 1839) and glorification of the Turkish people which led to intolerance, massacres, and genocide ultimately of other ethnic groups..

      “Turks have consistently mistreated Christians irrespective of the rise of nationalism, starting from the terrorizing invasion of the Seljuk Turks and throughout the Ottoman centuries.”

      Yeah, I agree, I hope I didn’t say anything to lead you to think that I disputed this. Until modern times (and into modern times in many places), religious minorities were almost always persecuted (me living in the US is an example of Turks doing this), though often not on the level of the Ottomans.

      Side note: Abdulhamid II’s mother was an ethnic Armenian- you’d think he’d have been a bit humane to Armenians considering this.

  79. Every time I read the Armenian Diaspora publications, newsletters, articles, bragging and self-praising, I remember “Odyssey” and the story of nymphs or sirens dragging boats to go on rocks for final destruction.

  80. yahya the turk,

    What final destruction can there be other than the mass murder of 2 million innocent human beings, the loss of two thirds of ancestral lands, and the desecration of all the cultural and civilizational traces of Armenians–all committed by the Turks? What else?!

  81. First of all, Zeki, the Vienna Convention on Succession of States was not “promulgated in 1978” and “entered into force on 6 November 1996”. In March of 1983, the UN Conference on Succession of States was held at Vienna, at the end of which, in April 1983, the Conference adopted “The Vienna Convention on the Succession of States in respect of State Property, Archives, and Debts”. Please check facts before posting comments.

    Now, let’s examine three other fallacies in your comment.

    Fallacy One:
    “Unless a successor State agrees otherwise, the Convention [on Succession of States] does not apply to a succession of States which occurs before its entry into force. [The Convention] appears to be a weak proposition for making any claims against nation states founded [before its entry into force].”

    The basic principle of succession of states, as laid out in the UN Commission on Human Rights Report, reads as follows: “In international law, the doctrine of legal continuity and principles of State responsibility make a successor Government liable in respect of claims arising from a former government’s violations.” The principle of responsibility of successor states has been held to apply even when the state that committed the wrong was not that of the successor state founded after the entry of the Convention on the Succession of States into force. It was before 1983 that the Federal Republic of Germany assumed responsibility for the crimes committed by the Third Reich. It was before 1983 that France assumed responsibility to repair the wrongs committed by the Vichy Government during the Nazi occupation. It was before 1983 that Norway granted restitution for confiscations and atrocities committed against Jews during the Quisling regime. Furthermore, Article 36 of the Convention on Succession of States in Respect of State Property, Archives and Debts clearly states that “a succession of States does not as such affect the rights and obligations of creditors”.

    Fallacy Two:
    “In respect of the 1948 UN Genocide Convention, I would be inclined to accept [that] the Convention cannot be retroactive.”

    Although the Genocide Convention fits the Armenian demand for justice, these claims are derived not only from it, but from the doctrine of state responsibility for crimes against humanity, which pre-dates the entry into force of the Convention. The Turkish liability for genocide was reflected in Articles 230 and 144 of the Treaty of Sèvres of 1920, and the German liability for the holocaust was reflected in the London Agreement of 1945. As one can see, both predated the Genocide Convention, with the London Agreement serving as Charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal. Thus, the Convention can be applied retroactively, because it is declarative of pre-existing international law. The general rule of non-retroactivity of treaties and conventions is not of relevance in the context of the crime of genocide, which has always been seen as an international crime under general principles of law.

    Fallacy Three:
    “Even if the term ‘genocide’ may be applied, the legal consequences won’t follow.”

    Since both Turkey and Armenia are states parties to the 1948 UN Genocide Convention, they can invoke article VIII, which provides that any contracting party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action as they consider appropriate for the “suppression of genocide”, suppression meaning not just retributive justice for the crime, but its consequences, as well. Besides punishing the guilty nation, suppression entails providing restitution and compensation to the surviving generations of the victim nation.

    • and here it is….sealed and delivered… :) Apres Paul jan… your competence and intelligence on this matter is much appreciated and clearly shows the lack of it in the party who is trying to win his argument by fallacy.

    • Paul, I was referring to the “Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties” Just check the first page where it states:

      “Done at Vienna on 23 August 1978. Entered into force on 6 November 1996.”
      http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/3_2_1978.pdf

      The treaty you are referring to is apparently “NOT YET IN FORCE”! is: “http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/3_3_1983.pdf

      Regardless, all those examples that you have cited are of nations that have voluntarily assumed their responsibilities under the respective treaty. My basic point is, there is no mechanism in the first treaty to impose legal obligations to any country created pre 1978, that isn’t a signatory and does not voluntarily accept any obligations. Where is your evidence to the contrary? The second treaty isn’t even worth discussing because it has about has much authority as a blank sheet of coloring paper. Its not even in force yet.

      I beg to differ with your comments regarding the 1948 UN Convention. If Armenian can invoke any articles then I eagerly look forward to seeing that day. At the moment however, all I hear is the sound of crickets chirping.

  82. the Yahya the Paul

    If your coward editor doesn’t allow me to post my comments and you carry on your monologue, I descent suddenly upon Yerevan in the night as Turkey isn’t big enough for us any more

    • several hundred of your Grey Wolf volunteers descended suddenly upon Artsakh in the night not too long ago.

      They were met warmly by Artsakh’s Armenian Mountain Warriors.
      The reception was so warm – actually quite hot, as in hot lead – that the Turks had no choice but to stay.

      They are still there, resting peacefully on Artsakh’s beautiful mountain meadows.

      Six feet under.

    • that would be so good.. we need to be neighbour with Azerbaijan..and then, with all Turkic world…

      i think no need for military means..armenia will disappear , by itself , by time..
      you know its population is getting smaller day by day..

    • I would call someone who presents themselves like you, confused yahya the turk, a pure sad and messed up in the head individual

    • Hey john,

      I will be there with my friends waiting for you with arms open, bring your tribe with you.
      A friendly suggestion, before taking a huge step like suddenly “descending” on Yerevan at night, try to “drive” to Dyarbakir (soon to be Independent Kurdistan)and meet my cousins there; I’m sure they will assist you to find the right path to your final destination.

    • and six feet under is where they are Avery jan…

      apparently these denialists have memory loss.. HUGE ONE.. because every chance they get, they open their dirty mouth but forgetting that what they talk is nothing but cheap….

    • it seems like necati bey (you have nothing ladylike about you and behave just like your ancestors so we will refer you as such)…

      was it your nonexistant kingdom’s dream to be the ultimate power house 100 years ago when they decided to wipe out close to 75% the Armenian population??? apparently it was; otherwise your cold blooded ancestors would not carry out the first Genocide of the 20th century…. but unfortunately your sorry ancestors did not accomplish what they dreamed of.. guess now our current govt is working hard to try again.. but sorry to say that will never happen..unless you carry out another GEnocide….unfortunately people like you who are genocidal including Yahya the Turk who is threating to descend upon us while we are sleeping is not a good sign for you sorry govt…

    • Ummmmmm does not really make or break the fact necati is an uncuth rude and rude denialist so…….

      Also if i remember correctly from sometime ago it was said necati is a female. My memory could serve me wrong. In any case, i have been referring to necati as if she was a woman. If that was not the case he could have corrected me. But then again we are talking about necati…….never mind

  83. Dear Paul,
    Your above detailed explanations were verhy much worth of reading and re reading.I believe there was one just one Armenian attorney historian or acting as both in switzerland-I forget his name,now passsed away- that had then,more a dozen yrs ago compiled conventions existing then.I read them long ago.
    But yours definitely is updated and has 1983 and before enlappping into it.
    I wonder if you would pass this one to AW staff who might wish to file it.
    Few bother studying these treaties and conventions,whereas for future reference they are of the utmost importance.Especially if our 500 (now more) strong attorney Association would also take it upon themselves to study these.
    I have n ow and then cc ed my ¨¨suggestions¨ to them,from long ago,say near 8/9 yrts, when they invited me to one of their Annual conventions in Miami.Their e-mail should not have changed…that of …
    Armenian Bar Association or ArmenBar ..I shall look it up and emial here again …
    best

  84. If your descent at night is a visit then you are most welcomed & I personally will meet & take you to Artsakh to see the heroics of our boys.You’ll feel proud.
    If your descent at night is to try to conquer make sure to be lifted back as we do not have enough space to…you know to what…you should understand…you’ve taken it all!
    Aliyev used to bark the same tune! Yes I forgot, street dogs pack together.

  85. In my March 19 post, to which you, Zeki, responded, I clearly mentioned The Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of State Property, Archives and Debts. I don’t see why you’d refer to The Vienna Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties? The Convention in respect of State Property, Archives and Debts was relevant to refute your misleading remark that “Turkey has no rights to the former territories or assets of its colonial past just as its former subjects do not have rights over its present boundaries and assets.” Whereas the Convention provides that “a succession of states does not affect the rights and obligations of creditors”. No need to make a big deal out of entry into force; it’s purely a technical issue. No international treaty or convention enters into force when it’s adopted. Typically, the provisions of the treaty determine the date on which the treaty enters into force, often at a specified time following its ratification or accession by a fixed number of states. Important is the concept and the language that were adopted in respect of state property and liabilities of a successor state.

    If you think that the Convention in respect of State Property, Archives and Debts “isn’t even worth discussing because it has about much authority as a blank sheet of coloring paper; it’s not even in force yet”, then please refer to Article 5 of the Convention on Succession of States in respect of Treaties that you appear to be so affectionate about:

    Article 5. Obligations imposed by international law independently of a treaty
    “The fact that a treaty is not considered to be in force in respect of a State by virtue of the application of the present Convention shall not in any way impair the duty of that State to fulfil any obligation embodied in the treaty to which it is subject under international law independently of the treaty.”

    Further, “Regardless, all those examples that you have cited are of nations that have voluntarily assumed their responsibilities under the respective treaty.”

    Some of them were courageous enough to do so voluntarily as they felt guilt and remorse, which clearly doesn’t apply to Turks. But others, like Germany and Italy, had done so after they were legally accused of committing war crimes, crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity. The 1945 London Agreement (usually referred to as the London Charter) set down the laws and procedures for Nuremberg trials where Germany’s and Italy’s crimes were tried and responsibilities imposed. But, then, may it be reminded, there were the Allied Powers-endorsed 1919-1920 Turkish Court Martial trials, which exposed the government complicity in the mass murders and forced deportations of Armenians and Greeks. There was also a trial by “The Commission on Responsibilities and Sanctions” established by the Paris Peace Conference in January 1919, chaired by the US Secretary of State. Based on the Commission’s work, the Treaty of Sèvres planned another trial to determine those responsible for the “barbarous and illegitimate methods of warfare [against Armenians]… [including] offenses against the laws and customs of war and the principles of humanity”.

    “My basic point is, there is no mechanism in the treaty [on Succession of States in respect of Treaties] to impose legal obligations to any country created pre 1978, that isn’t a signatory and does not voluntarily accept any obligations. Where is your evidence to the contrary?”

    There’s plenty.
    (1) In its 1951 Advisory Opinion, the International Court of Justice stated: “The principles underlying the [Genocide] Convention are principles which are recognized by civilized nations as binding on all States, even without any conventional obligation.”
    (2) In 1969 the UN Commission on Human Rights noted: “It is therefore taken for granted that as a codification of existing international law the Convention on the prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide did neither extend nor restrain the notion genocide, but that it only defined it more precisely.”
    (3) In 1970 the International Court of Justice stated: “By its very nature, the outlawing of genocide [is] the concern of all States. In view of the importance of the rights involved, all States can be held to have a legal interest in their protection; they are obligations towards the international community as a whole”.
    (4) The London Agreement of 8 August 1945 (London Charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal).
    (5) The 1968 Convention on the Non-Applicability of Statutes of Limitation to War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity of 1968.
    (6) UN Security Council Statute of the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda, and the International Tribunal for Sierra Leone.

    “I beg to differ with your comments regarding the 1948 UN Convention. If Armenia can invoke any articles then I eagerly look forward to seeing that day. At the moment however, all I hear is the sound of crickets chirping.”

    Have ants in the pants? Or eager to offer apology, make reparations and land restitutions for your ancestors’ barbarity? Everything’s good in its season… You don’t have to differ with my comments re: the Genocide Convention, unless you oppose everything that the victim nation says. It’s all there. Article VIII: “[…] any contracting party may call upon the competent organs of the United Nations to take such action as they consider appropriate for the suppression of genocide.” Article IX: “Disputes between the Contracting Parties relating to the interpretation, application, or fulfillment of the present Convention, including those relating to the responsibility of a State for genocide […], shall be submitted to the International Court of Justice at the request of any of the parties to the dispute.”

  86. i say it is the fear to offer apology, make reparations and land restitutions for his ancetors’ barbarity… we all know the more guilty you are, the more creative one gets and of course in our case, the denialists will turn every stone just to find a way to slther themselves out of their responsibility but they always fall into the trap.. :)

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