Sassounian: Azerbaijan Wins Security Council Seat While Armenians Remain Idle

Good point Mr Sassounian well said.

Mr.Kerim,
Firstly, Those borders that  both Azerbaijan(this country  is a fake  made up one ,before 1918 did  not even exist) and great Turkey parrot like repeat were created by Revolutionary  russia-during turmoil,hoping  They (the Russians) could also include  great Turkey as  anyet another Soviet Republic.Gave gold and armament to Mustafa kemal to suppress newly independent Armenian 1920´s,setting  up  those  fake borders. All monumenets including  recently discovered   Centurires  old ruins  of Tigranaker(in Artsakh, Nk) attest  to it and many many Monasteries  like  Gandzasar  etc.,.Population composed  of Lazis, lenkorani Persians,Dagestanis etc.,please go check it out. As to being jealous,no not at all,cause  we  know  you cannot accomplish anything at that Council.We have liberated  our ancient   lands (squattered  in by your tataar,turco mongol hordes).We shall and Will  claim and some day also get back/liberate  Nakhijevan, Gandzak(Ganje  in your lingo),Shahumian to begin with. I shall not refer to Western armenia ,which is another phase  of  the whole futuristic  Whole  United Armenia.
Just suffice it that we know  what  is ours and that your people came from UYGHURLAND,like  your own FM DAutohglu  stated  in  recent visit to China…
We are  yet to see what  latter  has to say about  Uyghurland… 

 
“Election” of Azerbaijan as a non-veto member of the UN Security Council is a great outcome for Armenia!!  
 
It is not about Artsakh anymore.  The current illegitimate Sultan Ilham Heydar ogly Aliyev, needed this trick to prolong his dictatorship.  Ideally, he would want to stay in power until his son Heydar Ilham ogly Aliyev Jr. reaches a “presidential age” of 20 something.  But the Arab Spring got Ilham-baba thinking hard.  The $.25+ billion is a small price to pay for this sort of “international legitimacy” of his regime.  He is very afraid that the West can choose his thiefdome to democratize next.  
 
He did consider another approach – sort of a “Putin-Medvedev” trick in an Azeri Turk way – to get his wife Mehriban-hanum elected as president for a few years, but had to rule out that option because her clan became too powerful and there is no guarantee that he would be allowed to return back.  
 
The West is considering bringing democracy to his oilfields anyway.  It’s not about Armenians anymore.  It is about other native peoples who live in Azerbaijan under the Azeri Turk yoke.  The Turks there are actually the true minority and they are afraid that Tolysh, Lezgi, Udin, and other “minorities” could get support from outside and come to Baku to talk to Aliyevs “Benghazi” style.  This would mean a long trip back to the Altai mountains for these Azeri Turks who would manage to survive the genuine expressions of love from their non-Turkic Muslim brothers.

stay tuned … Azerbaijan will soon make a fool of itself .. relax .. just give them enough rope to hang themselves.  At times, the strategy is to retreat or do nothing ;)  

This a travesty. Azerbaijan, a country that started and finished a well-documented ethnic cleansing campaign against its own citizens, within recent, living memory (as in Sumgait, Baku, etc ), and then expelled almost 400,000 Armenians from its cities and towns, reminds us about the power of oil and having influential, well-placed friends. Armenia should always take the high road, remain honest and steadfast, and then work hard to see that criminal behavior is not rewarded. Everyone knows that Karabagh was never part of an independent Azerbaijan until Stalin handed it over. Now that it has been returned to its rightful owners, the Azeris need to calm down. If their treatment of Nakhicevan is any indication of their stewardship (of lack thereof), then Karabagh can never revert back to their rule, unless the world wants it to become another ethnically cleansed wasteland.    

Mr. Kerim
For your information, the teritories of Kars and Artahan ( including the ancient city of 1001 churches, Ani ) were formally part of the Armenian Republic established in 1918 and this was less than a hundred years ago.As to the enitre part of eastern Turkey, this area is called Armenia , weather you like it or not, in all historical maps.
As to legal claims of property , yes we also have legal claims as families of x-ottoman citizens whose identity, property and life was stolen from them in 1915 from all over eastern Anatolia.  
And regarding internationally recognized boundries, are you ready to recognize the boundries of N.K. as an indipendent country if this is recognized internationally ?

AR, Gaytzag et al,

Wow, after reading these comments, Kerim single-handedly swabed the decks with all of you! Not one of you provides any legitimate argument! Many of you are lost in a “field of dreams” from days gone by! All of you do have one thing in common though…you all exhibit an extreme case of SOUR GRAPES!! Get over it and get a life already! Tell us please then…would you all like some cheese with your collective WHINES?!! 

“And regarding internationally recognized boundries, are you ready to recognize the boundries of N.K. as an indipendent country if this is recognized internationally ?”
 
Kerim is trying to trick us with his claim that Azeri Sultanate’s borders are “internationally recognized” – this is a lie.  There is no such thing as internationally recognized borders. 
It is true that the state of Azeri Turks is recognized by the UN, but it does not mean that it is recognized in the borders it claims.  UN recognizes member states as independent entities that control certain territories, but it does not rule which territory should be given to which state.  The same goes to the countries that recognize the government of Sultan Ilham-baba.  All it means is that they sent ambassadors that can talk government-to-government, but they are not going to send troops or UN peacekeepers to annex territories Azeri Turks would like to have. 
The border recognition issue is a BI-LATERAL deal between the bordering countries.  There is a process of mutual recognition that Azerbaijan should complete with all of its neighbors including Artsakh.  It is important to note that Azerbaijan has unsettled territorial claims against all of its neighbors except its illegitimate parent turkey state. 
Basically, Sultan Aliyev and his cronies live in a fantasy country with enormous borders covering half of Iran, almost all of Georgia, Russian Caucasus, and even Turkmen and Kazakh oil fields in the Caspian lake.  
UN should pay attention to Azeri Turk discrimination against the native peoples of the lands under their yoke – namely Lezgi in the North and Tolysh in the South.  These peoples have their right for self-determination.  Azeri Turk’s right for territorial sovereignty is dependent on how they guarantee their minorities rights.  In other words it is not absolute and the borders constantly change.
 
In civilized countries the central government guaranties minority rights including the right to secede in a peaceful process of self determination.  In exchange for such behavior such countries are protected from others trying to break their territorial integrity.  Take Canada for example – Quebec population was allowed to vote for independence in multiple referendums.  Until the majority of the province votes for independence, the right of Canada to claim this land is protected provided that the central government creates conditions necessary for the minority French speaking Canadians to live free of discrimination.  The same way the population of Newfoundland voted to secede from the United States and peacefully join Canada – it happened!
 
But the moment when a country like Azeri Turk Sultanate in response to peaceful calls for self determination by minority Armenians launches a military campaign of ethnic cleansing against civilian population of Artsakh the right for territorial integrity is lost and void. 

@ ROBERT “Wow, after reading these comments, Kerim single-handedly swabed the decks with all of you!” :DDD Are you kidding me!!!! Some how I feel you are the type of person TOO easily impressed. Probably a simpleton, and easily pleased :D  BTW the last 10 years ALIEVBAIJAN has surpassed Armenia in the WHINING contest. READ THE NEWS. :DDDDDD

To Robert,
To your first `post addressed to me et al:-
Claim to land that at present seves as Airport(in Incirlik) has been legally lodged at appropriate Courts/Instances. The outcome is pending,so pleaase wait. This is in response to your first  short  post addresssed to me.  It is claimed  by ACTIUAL  owne´s heirs by attorneys. Not me, as you write….

As to your second post -addressed to me-mainly, regarding claim  for lands,I would suggest  you study present situation in occupied  Western Armenia(Anadolou)
A. These lands were  the habitat  of Armenians(and I don´t  deny) kurds living  there for millenia side by side. After the Genocide perpetrated  on us by ottoman Turkey and Young turks Gov.t ,plus kemal Ataturk´final try to completely wipe our trace  of Armenians ,Greeks,Assyrians there, kurds ,at that point  of time-period-being your accomplices, stayed  on those lands looting the riches  of the aforementioned and usurping lands. They,the kurds(not Mountain turks,that your gov.ts tried to fake) stayed  on and multiplied since  then, NOW  A WHOPPING   18 million.
My question now being posed to you is :-How do you figure  out you can get rid  of such a huge population?  thorw  them  into the  Black  Sea( comes to min Peter Balakian´s  ¨TIGRIS  IS BURNING¨ and other facts  that it happened .That  Mustafa Kemal did  that to Greeks and Armenians .bUT  HOW DO YPOU PROPOSE TO FILL BALCK SEA WITH 18 million kurds? bodies?or what…Think  of that puzzle,an important  one at that.
K u r d s, not the turkish gov.t authorized brainwashed  ones acting  as  their agents(like before)  have  come to realize  that  what   turks  did to armenians ,greeks and Assyrian, can be repeated to them.this time  over  crushing  them as much as possible by fire and bombarding(including in Iraq),thus for the time being suppressing their demands.But  for  HOW LONG  CAN  THIS GO  ON? IS THE QUESTION.
Personally  I don´t  believe  it is time for Armenians to claim  LAND  NOW,i.e.  in general  a  few here and there example (to keep subject alive  ,like Incirlik) is good for said reason.MY  IDEA  OF  CLAIM TO BE LODGED WITH GREAT  TURKEY  NOW, IS THE PREPARATION OF THE  MAIN FILE/CLAIM  FOR….. B   L   O   O   D    M   O   N   E   Y !!!
wHICH HAS PRECEDENT  AND IT HAS BASE  TO IT,WITH PLENTY OF FACTS..
LAND ISSUE  WE CAN BY AND BY DISCUSS WITH EMANCIPATED  K U R D S ,no not  in great Turkey but outside  of their boundaries…
Rest assured  that we mean to carry  on our JUST CAUSE TO ITS FINAL SUCCESS!!!
 

‘There is no need for us or anyone to challenge Azerbaijan’s legitimacy at this point.’

Actually there is: I can’t list the many reason why, but their legitimacy  must be questioned and challenged constantly. There are very sound scientific reasons for doing so.  The fact that Azerbaijan  exists is one of  the reasons  it  must  be challenged. Part of the program.  

Avery – I get your point, but come on…why waste one’s time, energy, resources and intelligence on such an activity?  Ridiculous as it is, they were just given a seat on the security council and you think you can challenge their legitimacy?  Time to get real.  Let’s not forget that it was an Armenian (Stepan Shahumian) who helped to establish Azerbaijan as a republic in the first place, plus there are many Armenians who were instrumental in getting Azerbaijan started.  So, going down the road you suggest is just another diversion Armenians cannot waste time on, and I’m sure the govt of Armenia has much larger (real) issues to tackle. As they say, talk is cheap, but wasting even cheap talk on cheap ideas isn’t helping to solve existing problems.

No  ,Karekin,
Avery  is right.We must  insist  and show to the world that Azerbaijan  is a FAKE.I explained above  how it came to be. You have erroneously-permit me to say- presented the picture  that Stepan Shaumian  helped  create  it .Nothing  of the sort.Shahumian was  a communist(but a true Armenian)  he was an activist at that time trying to revolutionize  both Armenians and turco-tatar and other nationality workers in BAKI(not Azerbaijan)Baku was becoming  the centre for such socialist revolutionaries ,which did  not sit well with the British( I went to school in England and know  they don´t  mind  if I write  the facts.Facts? day in day out  Mr. Robert Fisk  of ¨The Independent¨atacks British wrongdoers,U.K.,like the U.s.  is a free  country you can express  yoursself freely..so much for  that.
Now then ,Shahumian at  any rate , together with 19  more revolutionaries, were grouped together and shot  by the British!!!!!  they did  not approve  of these advancing  further.
However,  much more  important  wave  of communist  led ,RED Army units  swarmed  over Baki and took over the Whole area.The British  had  devised  the name for that area as Azerbaijan.I explained  that  before,up above  that  it was a replica  of the other Aterpatakan ,called Azerbaijan by the  Iranians.Yes, there are over 16 million ,now probably more ,within North  Iran, but  these unlike  the Bakili  Azeris are  quite more  civil(I know  thenm personally, and are  well governed  by the Central iranian gov.t.
This  to the chagrin  of both Baku and Ankara. 
Here  I would like to add the following for all to think  over. If  Shahumian, Miasnikian ,Mikoyan  and a host  of others did  not harm Armenian  rights but were adamant  in their ideologies,shouln´t  we Armenians -Those who aspire to be or feel as real freedom lovers-approve  of them.Example, in Armenia  right  now exist the Marxist  party, head  of which is Davit Hakobian  a stout Armenian(that  when khatchklars in nakhijevan were being destroyed, in direct TV. from Yerevan,a discussion on -I was watching-angrily insisted  that  OSCE Minsk Grouop negotiations for peace  ought to stop right  then until they stopped destorying  the Khatchkars ,begged  pardon and then go back to table to negotiate…No one  listned to him not Oskanian  no Kocharian  nobody…Is  he a bad Armenian?We armenians  must  begin to appreciate  what  is said or  offered suggested,  by any person with any ideology,Main issue is to weigh and measure the subject matter,if found beneficial ACCEPT  IT WITHOUT GOD  D  (come form  old times) Armenian  bad  trait  of being jealous….
Going back to above  subject  matter. No karekin shahumian to me , at  least  is as  much a person  of respect as  is Njdeh or Mura , Cahvoush or Andranik.A true Armenian -never  mind  his ,her ideology-is one  that  NEVER PUTS BEHIND  HIS ARMENITY!!!!
SO kAREKIN OR OTHERS TRY TO BE  MORE  REALISTIC. tHE bRITS  came back  didnn´t  they????ACCEPT  FACTS.tHEY ARE  THERE  NOW,NOTWITHSTANDING WHAT Shahumians or russian bolsheviks  did to stop  them.This  is like a chess game ,capiche, Politics   is  the art  of the clever and the cunning  minds  yes  even the G.D. Toikish cunningness. 

sorry Karekin, you are deliberately reframing what I was advocating to create a strawman – and then present arguments against it.
(Nothing new: have seen it from you before more times than I can remember.)

You are quite right that Armenians helped establish the fake state of  Azerbaijan. However, you deliberately left out the part about them being Bolsheviks, Shahumyan included. Unfortunately  Armenian Bolsheviks’ loyalty was not to their own people – in most cases. Their misguide loyalty was to the ideology of Bolshevism: they did what their leadership (V.I. Lenin) told them to do.
Ottoman Turks, with the help of the highly experienced  British Imperialists,  outsmarted  and outmaneuvered the Bolsheviks in  Azerbaijan– and we Armenians are still paying the price.
Ethnic Georgian Bolshevik  Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili aka Joseph Stalin illegally gave NKR and Nakhichevan to Soviet Azerbaijan despite furious objections from Soviet Armenian leadership (gave…with Lenin’s approval).
Was that the fault of Armenians too ?
 
As to the worth of the security council seat, here is a news item from a couple years ago:
{Oct 17, 2007 | The Associated Press
Libya Wins Seat on U.N. Security Council
Libya _ a former pariah state condemned by the U.S. as a sponsor of terrorism _ won a seat on the U.N. Security Council Tuesday without opposition from the Bush administration.
“We really felt let down when the State Department didn’t make the objections it has in the past”
The U.S. decision not to support a rival African country for the seat angered families of victims of the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland _ some of whom watched the vote in the U.N. General Assembly from the visitors gallery. They said the United States should have done more to prevent Libya from getting a seat on the U.N.’s most powerful body.}
 
 
 
On Sept 17, 2011 UN gave Libya’s UN  Security Council seat to the Libyan rebels. Yep, rebels, who overthrew the previously legally recognized government headed by Gaddafi. So much for the value of a UNSC seat. So much for legitimacy conferred by UN.
And the  legally recognized head of a UN State who only a short time ago was ceremoniously received at the UN and gave a speech, with the requisite enthusiastic applause, was unceremoniously killed  like a common sewer rat hiding in a large pipe. (….as a bonus insult, other awful and degrading things were done to Gaddafi before he was killed, but this is a G-rated  online magazine).
 
 
So phony legitimacy conferred by this or that world body is very fleeting. We Armenians have the kind of legitimacy that very few nations have.
Our legitimacy and the sense of nationhood has survived the test of time. Our sense of  nationhood  is not something one can measure, but it is very real and very powerful.
 
 
Deep down, Azeris know they are a fake, artificial  country, a  non-existent ethnos, with no roots. It manifests itself  in almost every action and pronouncement of their leaders. For example, in their  deep desire to gain legitimacy where there is none, they even claim that  the Khachkars of Nakhichevan were created by their mythical Christian ancestors, before they converted to Islam. 10,000 irreplaceable  centuries-old Khachkars which they, Azeris, themselves destroyed. The absolute  illogic of the claim somehow escapes the brilliant minds of Azeri leaders. But it makes perfect sense if one considers the deep fakosis psychosis they are collectively suffering from.

Ahmet –
 
The simplicity of your Turkish mentality is in that you think Armenians fight against Turks. No, we don’t fight against Turks, we fight for historical justice. Therefore, whether Turkey will preside over G-20 or not, essentially doesn’t matter for the advancement of justice. Besides, Turkey is too minor a player in the world affairs to stop international recognition of the Armenian genocide. The recent statements by Sarkozy are a demonstration that the recognition will happen whenever it suits the world power centers and Israel. They would care less about whether or not Turkey will preside over G-20.  Don’t fool yourself.

“For  I do believe we shall reach there prior to 2015..” GAYtzag, keep believing!!! :-)
Sarkozy’s recent statements? Who is Sarko? He is trying to save his behind in the French elections. that is all.
Berch, what did it give to Turkey? What do you think? Could it be the G-20 presidency? :-)
All of my friends here in USA are telling me they have been hearing a lot about Turkey recently as the regional power. Turkey is the trend now.  
But wait a minute. The world has been hearing a lot about Armenians too. Kardashian just got divorced right? :-)
 

Not matter how frequently you recyle a lie, it does not become a truth (unless you are doing as part of a myopic community drunk on its own delusions of grandeur). Now, about the lie about Staline giving Azerbaijan to Karabak. You misrepresent facts. Your claim implies that Karabak was part of an Armenian state and Stalin took it from Armenia and gave it to Azerbaijan. THis is incorrect. What happened he voted in favor of KEEPING it as part of Azerbaijan during a meeting in which Armenia’s petition to take it from Azerbaijan was being considered. As the leader of the subsuming country of USSR, he felt their claim was a bogus. Now, by attaching a bogey-man name like Stalin to Azerbaijan’s historical ownership of Karabak, you try to create a negative association in people’s mind (“Oh, wow, Stalin is evil. Stailin gave Karabak to Azerbaijan. Therefore, Azerbaijan owning Karabak is bad.” How pathetic of you!). As for using the word Artsakh as the name of Karabak, this too is an attempt to obfuscate real facts. Kabak is a historical name of the land, which means Black Garden in Azeri. And its capital city was called Khankendi, before being renamed after the Armenian communist of 1920s, Stepan Shamuyan. And guess what, Khankendi means King’s Village in Azeri. You know why? Because it was established by the Azeri khan (king) of Karabak as a summer get-away for his family. And you know who signed the capitulation agreement with the Russian tsar to acknowledge Russian ownership of the land: an Azeri king. Now if this land was Armenian, what business did Russian have getting a signature from an Azeri, who according to you, had no ownership of the land? Now, where did the Armenians come to Karabak? As part of that very agreement with the Russian, Russian, migrated a lot of Armenians from Turkey and Iran to create a Christian presence as a buffer. This is a historical fact. Not a long time ago there was a monument the ARmenians built in Karabak (in Martuni town I believe), which celeberated the 150 year anniversary of ARmenian settlement in Karabak. Facts are facts. Another fact: we Azeris will come back!

Kerim,
 
Let’s first correct the flaws of your grammatical literacy, or illiteracy, rather. Stalin not Staline, Karabakh or Gharabagh not Karabak or Kabak, Shahumian not Shamuyan. Let’s now proceed to your historical illiteracy. There has never been such a nation as ‘Azerbaijanis’ or ‘Azeris’ as people inhabiting present-day Azerbaijan in history before 1918. Those who lived on those lands were known as Caucasian Tatars, Caucasian Turks, or simply Muslims, i.e. tribes with no particular national identification. ‘Azerbaijan’ or ‘Azerbaijanis’ was historically a Persian, repeat: Persian toponym known as ‘Atrpatakan’ in antiquity. This genuinely Persian name was stolen by the Caucasian Turks in the early 20th century to have some kind of national identity for the new nation-state artificially created by the British and the Russians. Therefore, Artsakh (ancient Armenian name for Nagrono-Karabakh), could not be a part of a modern entity called Azerbaijan. For a short period of time this Armenian land has become a Persian khanate, but was nevertheless ruled by Armenian meliks. Even before artificial state of Azerbaijan was established in 1918, Artsakh was a “disputed territory” based on the decision of the Paris Conference convened to redraw the world map after the World War I. When Bolsheviks came to the region in the early 1920s, their Caucasian Party Bureau first decided to attach Artsakh to the Armenian Soviet Republic given its historical background, cultural ties, architectural monuments, and ethnic composition, but then changed their own decision overnight as a result of intervention by the Soviet Comissar on Nationalities Joseph Stalin. Stalin’s unilateral decision was not because he felt the Armenians’ “claim was a bogus”, but because he simply followed the principle of the Bolshevik nationalities’ policies: to place particular ethno-territorial units under the jurisdiction of other units in order to facilitate the pyramidal centralized governance.
 
Now let’s refute some toponymical inaccuracies. “Gharabagh” does mean Black Garden, but in Persian and Turkic, not Azeri. What is Azeri? Is it a separate language ever known to the humans? It’s a Turkic language. Nagorno-Karabakh is often referred to by the Armenians as Artsakh, designating a province of the ancient Kingdom of Armenia. In Urartian Armenian inscriptions (9th-7th centuries BC), the name Urtekhini is used for the region. Ancient Greek sources called the area Orkhistene. Same with Khankendi. It does mean Khan’s Village, but in Persian and Turkic, not Azeri. According to medieval Armenian sources, the settlement was first mentioned as Vararakn, meaning Rapid Spring in Armenian, which remained under this name until it was renamed Khankendi only in 1847 by a Persian khan.
 
The last part about where the Armenians came to Karabakh generates a pity for the simplicity of an Azeri mind. A land where one of the four ancient Armenian capitals of Tigranakert, founded in the 1st century BC by the Armenian Emperor Tigran the Great was found, is one of the many proofs of the Armenian presence at the times when no such thing as Turk or Azeri ever existed.
 
“Another fact: we Azeris will come back!”  What weed are you smoking, Kerim?

sure you will Ahmet. Are you and Kerim going to be in the first invading jet that will be shot down over Artsakh ?
Are you both going to be in the first invading tank that will be blown up in the territory of Artsakh ? 

Are you two prepared to join the 30,000 Azeri-Tatar-Turk troops KIA during the war by the  Armenian defenders ? 

Paul, thanks for spell-checking my post. You made me laugh :) Did you really think that Staline versus Stalin was anything other than a typo of someone who did not care to spell-check? :)

Now, before I believe anything you say, I have to test your credibility with the things I or any other person (Azeri or non-Azeri) who knoes (spellcheck, Paul!) the Azeri knows. Garabagh means Black Garden in Azeri, and NOT in Turkish or Person. Off a very bad start, my friend.

Now, about your claims that Azerbaijan is a fictional nation. As a thought experiment, let’s imagine we are standing in front of a UN council, and you gave them the speech you just wrote, which in a nutshell is this: “Ladies and gentlemen, the land that you UN and all other internaional organization call Azerbaijan is a fiction. It is a made-up nation. Accordingly, we have every right to kill and plunder them, and make homeless over 1 million people who now live in the refugee camps.” They would boo you down in a heart-beat. They would see you for who you are: a self-delusional, self-righteous fascist who distorts and misinterprets history in justification of violation of internation law. No country in the world would want to be your neigbor (spell-check, Paul, please).

Avery, as for your post, as soon as I saw the ad hominem with which you started your post, I decided not to read the rest of it. Why waste my time reading the post of a bigot. At least, Paul tries to be reasonable. Also, I am sorry, but your post was just way too long! You should get a life. I know I know you get a great pleasure from the warm fuzzy feeling you get from your compatriots congratulating you for yet another great profound post. But trust me (and we Azeris have own Averies in our own forums), many of them laugh at you zeal when reading such long posts, and wonder the same thing: doesn’t he/she have a life?

here is a question, again,  for the two boastful  tough guys Ahmet and Kerim, that they avoided answering:

Are you two going to be in the first invading jet that will be shot down over Artsakh ?
Are you both going to be in the first invading tank that will be blown up in the territory of free and independent Artsakh ? 
Are you two prepared to join the 30,000 Azeri-Tatar-Turk troops KIA during the war by the  Armenian defenders ? (at the cost of (only) 5,000 Armenian KIA).

Armenia:  Internally strong. Only two external  enemies
                   (both with internal ethnic or religious issues)
               No internal ethic or religious issues in RoA.
               Cohesive, solid population base. 
               Strong, wealthy Armenian diaspora both in Russia
                  and West: an asset for RoA.                
               Bright future.
 
Turkey: Internally weak.  Conflict ridden.
            Multiple powerful external enemies. 
            Ongoing internal ethnic armed conflict. 
            Population base unreliable, in turmoil over multiple issues.
            Turk diaspora in Europe a liability due to religious and ethnic conflict with
                natives.
            Islamist vs.  Kemalist  division within ethnic  Turks themselves.
            Bloated, weak military: 5,000-10,000 PKK have tied down entire TSK.
            TSK unable to defeat PKK for 30 years.
            Rapidly multiplying 25-30 million Kurds slowly consuming the State from
                inside.
            Practically no ethnic Turks left in Eastern Turkey.
            Ripe for disintegration into 2-4 parts.
            Free and Independent Kurdistan coming up.
            Powerful external enemies working to breakup Turkey.          
            Bleak future.

Paul,

You know, it is easy to believe the conclusion of a fallacious argument as long as it gives you what you so badly want to believe. Now, let’s take a more adult view of things and try to think through the logic of all of this. And by “all of this” I mean the ubiquitous Armenian claim that since the Turkish tribes came to Caucasus in about X century, this means somehow that you Armenians have a right to Karabak, and even to the whole of Azerbaijan. It is a strawman argument. Of course, no one can deny the fact that Turkish tribes did come around that time – this is a fact. But before you conveniently rush to derive from this a justification for Armenian fascism, halt a second and think more logically. Here is some help for you. (and yes, I will spell-check this time, since it seems to bother you so much :)

Now, you know what also is a fact? All DNA studies of the people of Caucasus have revealed that the people of modern Azeris are not that different from the other peoples of Caucasus. They are much much more similar to Georgians and others than, even remotely, to Mongolians. You and others like you cannot deny this fact. Genetics do not lie. The modern Azeris belong to the region no less than their neighbors if not more (more on that in a moment). But what happened to the Turks coming in? Now, forget about your ideology of calling Azeris subhuman, and listen to your eyes. Who do Azeris look like more, Armenians, or Mongols or even Turkmens? Do you really think that in mere 900 years the Mongols have completely transformed into a Caucasian people?  This is genetically impossible and as the DNA tests have shown a practical falsity. What has instead happened, the ancestors of modern Azeris (Albanians) simply adapted the Turkish language and culture. An analogue of this is what has happened to the Hispanics of Latin America. Or do you think that the entire population of theirs all came in a ship from the tiny country of Spain? And therefore, the indigenous people who still speak a non-Spanish language somehow own the entire continent? And you might ask why the Armenians did not adopt the Turkish language? Perhaps they were braver, but it is also possible that no one cared enough to do the same to Armenia (it was a landlocked parking lot, while Azerbaijan lied at the Silk road, had a port, etc, and was thus a more attractive target).

So, if we went back generation by generation, just because my ancestors adapted the Turkish language, it does not mean that your ancestors owned their land! This may or may not be the case: maybe your ancestor did own their land. But this definitely does not follow from the fact that Turkic tribes invaded Caucasus. If anything, it is probably more likely that it was the other way around, given what happened to Armenians elsewhere in the region. The Ottoman Turks slaughtered their Armenians and Russia migrated a lot of Persia’s Armenians to the Caucasus region. It is not wonder that Armenians in Karabak had a monument to the 150th anniversary of their move to the region, furtively demolished by them later for obvious reasons.

Do you now see what I meant earlier by the logical fallacy of your argument? A logical fallacy occurs when the person thinks mistakenly that his/her conclusion necessarily follows from his/her premises, which in your case, as I have just demonstrated, does not hold. True, what I describe may or may not have actually happened that way, but what is clear is that it was possible for it to have happened that way (and even likely, given the DNA evidence). All this means that the necessary connection you rely on is not Necessary after all, since there is a pretty strong alternative feasible explanation.

Regarding your racist comments about Turks and Mongols. If they lacked culture and were so stupid and worthless, how come they built the biggest empire the world has ever seen, and their descendents Ottomans ruled the world, with so many scientists and philosophers who flourished in their states? I know I know you have read in your history books how smelly they were and brutal, and barbaric. I read this in my history books too. But even though I was a child back then, I could understand the following: consider the source! It was written by the Russians, whom Mongols had vanquished for so many centuries. Of course, they would say such things about Mongols. Perhaps yours were written by the Westerners. Still, the bias, the racism of it, is still true.

As for the UN thought experiment, you appear to miss the whole point of a thought experiment, i.e., what it means, etc. So I won’t burden you with it any more. Besides, I have already become an Avery by typing a long message such as this, which will be my last.

Whoever  ,or  plurally  who  have engaged  us  in above  and other such discussions/debates know at heart  that  they also  have to COMMENT, now and then on the positive COMMENTS, COME EVEN, from, Turks, or ¨supposedly¨  Turk adversaries.
I shall do  that  NOW here as  to at least  one Commentator-poster,namely AVETIS|||
Sadly but manly, I wish to confirm  that  part  of your  above comments  are TRUE!!!
And  in order  not to waste all others´ otherwise precioous  time  Here goes my REMEDY!!
Yes ,Armenians  -maily due to their innate  JEALOUS  stance, DO NOT tolerate  each other and  feel very Jealous  to each other(this partially due also to centureis  old insecurity  having shrunk each into  his her own family  and self. Remedy?
My Suggested  ¨Professional  Colleagues  Associations¨¨ that  is where  they will mingle  with their OWN work -type  colleagues  exchange views, try to compromis , in short SOCIETIZATION(MY INVENTED WORD) fOR TRUE, our hereto fore political parties  benvolent sportive compatriotic  association  have  done some work towards  that  but  >HAVE  IN VIEW  WHAT  %  OF US  BELONGS  TO THOSE.tHE gREAT  MAJORITY  IS LEFT  TO SHIFT AWAY,FOR  REASONS KNOWN TO THEMSELVES  THEY DO NOT WISH -LIKE SELF -TO ADHERE  TO THE POLITICO NOR  THE CHURCH, OR ANY OTHER  ABOVE. wHY ? SIMPLE  THOSE  ARE RATHER FOR THE  old way thinking  people, set against  ea  other (by turkish agents , perfectly Armenian speaking  and adopted Armen  names…yeah don´t  be surprised  even  RIGHT  NOW  according  to haratch two yrs ago French armen  Newspaper. 120 Turkish officers  in Ankara  are undergoing armenian  learning,language  et al, what  TOI BE ASSIGNED TO THE MOON? OR PENETRATE  INTO  OUR COMMUNITIES  AND SAY LIKE PARROTS ¨wE aRMENIANS DO NOT COOPERATE , WE  SHALL NEVER  uNITE,SUCH PHRASES  AND POISONING  US…
uNITY?  WHAT  uNITY?? France  has  extreme  left  extreme  right political parties  and their offshoots  they NEVER   UNITER,wrong  word. ..Especially usefull  though for Turks  to utilize  amongst  us.BUT THE FRENCH  KNOW  THAT  POLITICAL IDEOLOGIES ARE  NOT ABOVE  NATIONAL  INTERESTS  AND  THEY   C O  O P E R A T E     MIAPANIL!!!!
HELL THAT  IS WHAT  IS NEEDED BY US and for  that we can only go through that crystalization mode  I suggest. Otherwise  a Construction field  man sitting with  an armenian Physician  does  not  ahv e much in common, nor a Banker/financial expert  with a  store keeper( in my  15  fields  of prof. Colleagues  though ,latter, storekeeper  is classified as  FOOD & Catering  field, who also can congregate  within their  Grouping and through themselves ELECT   their  Delegagte to the Interprofessional , the ONES  THAT  ARFE  ENDOWED  WITH ONE  OF 3  MERITS:::Hope I have  not taken  your time
But avetis, please rest  assured  that  soemthign  has to give , to give  in to thios GARDZR  Armenian old  ottoman  Armenian mentality!!! have to begin to respect, tolerate ea  other…
As to toilet s in ra. You err ,there  has been a  huge  change  since i go there every year  and those  may exist  only  in very far flung  villages of the republic. Thank god, RA/Artsakh are by and by progressing a t a not to fast pace ,  but  O.K. to chagrin of  our ONLY TWO ADVERSARIES:Today ´s  good  news  is  I R A N    is offering more coop  with RA and this is good newsindeed.
So be patient.I shall terminate saying  that  I am writing my  well written ,say manifdesto  to  a hundred  armenian Press media  , etc,m plus  many  ,many establishments  for the NEW  ELECTORAL  SYSTEM  to be kindly  employed  in RA and diaspora alike,in PARALLEL  WITH  THE  EXISTING  that  is political  party setting forth  their candidaters and the THE WEALTHY  (AS  IN NEAR ALL COUNTRIES)  by campaigning  money spending!!!  which  is self  explanatory!!! 

Likewise, Kerim:  I don’t think I’m willing to reduce myself to debating with an Azeri or a Turk, if he thinks that believing the conclusion of an argument—whether or not it’s fallacious and whether or not it gives one what one wants to believe—is considered “fascism”. The conclusion I came to believe is based on readings of history, extensive readings, by the way, mostly of primary sources and historical accounts of non-Armenian authors. Your arguments are so primitive that I even posed for a while to decide if they’re worth replying at all.
 
Maybe for the last time:
 
A reference to DNA studies would be useful, but even if such studies demonstrate some genetic similarity, they can’t disprove of the fact that modern Azeris are not the indigenous inhabitants of the lands they now occupy. They are the outgrowth of Turkic invaders who penetrated into Asia Minor (with the Persian province of Khorasan as their first stop) from the Central Asian steppes. In the course of centuries their descendants interbred with native inhabitants: Persians, Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, Assyrians, etc. There may be some genetic similarity as a result of it, but interbreeding doesn’t support the fact that their origins were, in fact, in the Caucasus.
 
I don’t think that in mere 900 years the Mongols have completely transformed into a Caucasian people via interbreeding with nobler peoples. On the contrary, I think a lot of nomadic traits, such as brutality and revulsion towards civilized people, remain in modern Azeris: indescribable savagery against Armenians in Sumgait and Baku are just one indication of it.
 
The ancestors of modern Azeris are not Albanians who adopted the Turkish language and culture. This is a myth that was created to satisfy the inferiority complex of the Azeris as aliens to these lands. Geographically, Caucasian Albania laid to the north of modern-day Azerbaijan, not to mention that Turkic Azerbaijan never existed in the days of Caucasian Albania. Throughout history, Azarbaijan was a Persian province; it was never ethnically Turkic. Religiously, Caucasian Albania was a Christian state. Culturally, Caucasian Albanians had their own achievements. Turkish language and culture—which modern Azeris, as the Turks’ outgrowth, have adopted—is a result of heavy borrowing from Arabic script, as well as Persian, Byzantine Greek, and Armenian culture. What culture could tent-living Turkic nomads possibly have when they appeared in Asia Minor? Is it not clear that they had to borrow the language, the script, the cuisine, the religion from others in order to put some civilizational clothing on?
 
If you truly believe that Armenians were brought to Artsakh and it happened 150 years ago, pull your socks up and explain to yourself the presence of the 4th century Tzitzernavank monastery or numerous Armenian medieval churches. Or even better, if your brain fuses won’t blow, try to explain the presence of Tigranakert, one of the capital cities built throughout the Armenian Plateau by emperor Tigran the Great in the 1st century BC.
 
Turks and Mongols certainly lacked culture, but they were not stupid. There’s tons of scholarly material on how Mongols built the biggest empire the world, major reason being their terrorizing warrior skills and brutality, certainly not culture or civilized manners. You suggest not reading Russian or Western sources because you consider them biased and racist. But, excuse me, did Mongols know how to write or read in order to leave chronicles for future generations?
 
Ottomans did rule a part of the world for 5 centuries, certainly not the whole world, but at the expense of the indigenous peoples they conquered and colonized. It was by conquest and oppression that they created their empire, certainly not by tolerance and civility. Most of scientists and philosophers who became prominent in the Ottoman empire were non-Turks. Turks were there where wars and slaughters were needed, whilst Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, and Jews were there where craft, business, arts, literature, engineering, and architecture were needed.
 
P.S.  I never called Azeris “subhuman”. Either you show me my post where I did so or you apologize to me or I request that moderators ban you from posting here for falsely ascribing racism. Fair deal?

“Armenians = constant bickering, constant airing of dirty laundry and constant infighting leading to disunity, undermining of the state and utter indifference towards the fledgling Armenian state.”
 
Armenians = one of a few nations in the world who never had a civil war in their long history.
 
“While Turks unconditionally serve their rubber-corrupt leaders literally to the death, Armenians are ready to either boycott or overthrow the Armenian president at the drop of a hat.”
 
Armenians are ready to either boycott or overthrow the unelected and unpopular Armenian president at the drop of a hat.

Armenians are more concerned about silly/unessential internal/domestic matters such as “there is corruption in Armenia” and “toilets stink in Armenia” than in serious nation-building.
 
Armenians are concerned about silly/unessential internal/domestic matters such as “there is corruption in Armenia” because they understand that this, among other vices, impedes serious nation-building.

“This is essentially how a small bunch of primitive Turks from Central Asia brought “civilized” Armenians and Greeks to their knees. I personally think we have a lot to learn for our “barbaric” enemies.”
 
Actually, there were hordes of Turkic nomadic tribes, not a small bunch. Their horde mentality, terrorizing belligerence, and indescribable brutality brought civilized Armenians and Greeks to their knees. But then the same happened to the civilized Romans in the hands of barbarians. Are we encouraged to resemble savages?

Paul, Avery,

First, disclaimer. This is my last post on Armenian Weekly. As you probably already think, yes, I need to get a life. Also, I have already said everything I can say in this debate. And I thank the moderators for posting my comments. To be frank with you, most Azeri moderators would not have.

Another upfront disclaimer: I actually do believe that is is likely that the Turks committed a Genocide against you. In that sense, the Turks owe us Azeris a big time. Having pissed off and wronged you so much, they have left you hating antyhing that has anything to do with the Turks. And since Turkey is way to strong fo you to tackle, you have transferred your hatred to the Azeris, even though we had nothing to do with the 1915 events. For you, it suffices that we speak a similar language and that we all “descended” from some Mongolian “barbarians.” Pretty childish, I think. In any event, Turkey owes it to us: they should never open the border with Armenia, pretending that the fight between Armenia and Azerbaijan has nothing to do with them.

Now to your posts regard about Azeri’s place in Caucasus…

Now, Paul, the flow of your argument is ultimately based on subjective interpretation of history’s implications. In contrast, hard science does not lie. When you say the modern Azeris do not belong to Caucasus as much as Armenian do, the best evidence you have, even assuming it all is true, is based on history. Compare that to the DNA analysis, based on chemistry. And chemistry does not lie, unlike biased history books and their misinterpreters like yourself.. Here is one academic article clearly showing that the modern Azeris are genetically at home in Caucasus. Google it; it is free to read:

“Mitochondrial DNA and Y-Chromosome Variation in the Caucasus” published in Annals of Human Genetics Annals of Human Genetics (2004) 68, p 205–221

Compared to such hard scientific facts, you and Avery provide essentially self-serving interpretations of history. I think it is a clear-cut check mate. In sum, it does not matter what language we speak, its is the genetics that count.

Avery, all this does not mean that we Azeris secretly wish we were Armenians. Don’t flatter yourself. Being a native of Caucasus is not synonymous with being an Armenian. If anything, your genetic make-up is much more mixed up with the Middle Eastern people than purely Caucasian, since, according to your own very historical claims, your heartland is in Mount Ararat area, which is not part of Caucasus.

On Albanians … What happened to them? Did they evaporate into thin air? No, they are the Azeri ancestors. And note you cannot say they turned into Armenians because that would contravene your sacred creed that Armenians are the most primordial people of all.

On the Mongolians … Now, your claims to greatness critically refer to Tigran’s territorial conquests. So, your claim to greatness is ultimately based on territorial possession. And yet you downplay the Mongolian’s merit in that area. If taking over a large area is a sign of superiority, then Armenia dwindles in comparison with the Turks and Mongols. And Mongols could not run the biggest empire the world had ever seen solely based on burtality and barbarism. Running an empire requires administrative and political skills, and not just a sword.

Avery, about your comment on Asian eyes … It made me laugh. Your thinking is so naïve, especially compared to the hard-core scientific evidence behind my position. So naïve that it does not even merit a rebuttal.

Paul, about your claims that you are not making racist remarks. What to make of these words of yours: “I don’t think that in mere 900 years the Mongols have completely transformed into a Caucasian people via interbreeding with *nobler* peoples. On the contrary, I think a lot of nomadic traits, such as brutality and *revulsion towards civilized people*, remain in modern Azeris: indescribable savagery against Armenians in Sumgait and Baku are just one indication of it.” Do I really need to comment on this? If you miss the bigotry flagrant in this comment, you are truly blind to your bigotry, which is the case for all bigots. As for burtality, Azeris made homes a couple of thousands Sumgayiti Armenians. You, over 1 million Azeris!

Now, what do you really have to show for the Armenians that makes you feel so superior to the Mongols? Do you think your Tigran used flowers and chocolate to conquer his neighbors? “The Mongols we especially brutal.” Says who? The people they conquered (e.g., Russians, etc). Don’t you see the bias? But still, what is it that makes you Armenians so much better than everyone else? Yes, you have Cher, Andre Agassi? You say your nation is 3000 year old. What do you have to show for it? Yes, like most nations, you are not without achievements, and I personnaly do hold you in respect even if we are enemies (e.g., the best carpenters in Baku were Armenians). But not to the extent that justifies the almost-mythological self-worship of Armenians.

Kerim,
 
It is no sweat to refute this recurrent round of your gibberish, calmly and in a factual manner. But before anything else, you’d need to either show me where in any of my posts I called the Azeris “subhuman” or apologize to me for slander or I bring the matter to the moderators’ attention since false accusations of racism are not allowed on these pages.
 
  “[…] your [paul’s] ideology of calling Azeris subhuman”—  Posted by Kerim, November 8, 2011

Kerim:  What’s your problem with the characterizations such as “noble vs. barbarian” or “civilized vs. uncultured” that are used here to describe past historical events? What makes you think they’re “racist” if, clearly, they’re not addressed in a pejorative way to any modern people? All I see here is references to the Mongols. No history book would describe the Mongols as “noble” people. Is it not so in Azerbaijan?  Throughout ancient history, Greeks called Zoroastrian Persians, Medes, Celts, Germans, Phoenicians, Etruscans and Carthaginians barbarians. Ancient Hindus referred to foreign peoples as barbarians. The Chinese thought of the Qiang, Guifang, and Di  tribes as barbarians. The Aztecs called a group of nomadic hunter-gatherers in Mexico as primitive and uncivilized. The Incas used the term for all peoples living outside of their empire. The North African Berbers were among the many peoples called barbarian by the Romans, as were the Gauls, Huns, and Visigoths.  In ancient times, people who had an advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and social development marked by the extensive use of record-keeping, especially writing, and by the progress in the arts and sciences, were considered nobler and civilized. What is wrong with reiterating this universal truth with regard to the Mongols? You can find references to the Mongols as uncultured and uncouth in any book written on the topic. Are all the authors “racists”?
 
B

mardehros,

One would like to know what is Azerbaijan’s claim on the same land.  It has been majority Armenian populated, home to ancient Armenian monuments, an Armenian autonomous republic, even if within Azerbaijan. So what is Azerbaijan’s claim on it? That it was “owned” by Azerbaijan for about 70 years?

The population of Artsakh has a right for self-deermination. They don’t want to be part of Azerbaijan. 
    

Karim
Thanks for the article you forwarded on this site… 
I read it in great detail about the Genetics— 
About the genes of Armenian and Azeris being similar… 
The study is done from many institutes I copied the article here but it was removed.
Having my self done many epidemiological studies…I feel the sample is very small from each ethnicity…Also it is most probable they took the swab from educated ethnicities…
not from all type of populace…Lower and middle class and above…
So it has bias… Such studies are not easy to do…You need time and consents…
I have already contacted the author, I Nasdize Who forwarded to me the complete article
I will comunicate more…

I met once an Azeri female music teacher…after she knew me I am Armenian…She said my grandmother is Armenian and I got the genetics of music from her…and my father Azeri…
So people are mixed…Educated one know every thing but illiterates they are causing the problems and killing…Using their religion as gun against others…
Before BC they had one religion through the years changed
but the genes remained genes…Unchangeable…
So may be you and me we have the same genes…

Sylva

If some once to read the article…the reference is this…

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=Annals%20of%20human%20genetics%202004%2C68%2C205#
 
Mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome variation in the caucasus.
Nasidze I, Ling EY, Quinque D, Dupanloup I, Cordaux R, Rychkov S, Naumova O, Zhukova O, Sarraf-Zadegan N, Naderi GA, Asgary S, Sardas S, Farhud DD, Sarkisian T,Asadov C, Kerimov A, Stoneking M.
Please don’t remove…It takes us time to collect and write and educate…
Many of my poems are removed by the sensors…
SP