Reparations as Essential Element of any Just Resolution of Genocide

The Armenian Weekly
April 2011 Magazine

For decades, the issue of reparations was largely absent from the discourse on the Armenian Genocide. For some, it was implicit in the issue. Once the case was recognized widely as genocide, they expected that reparations could become a central part of the discourse. For others, the notion was an impossible pipedream or a destabilizing fantasy. Mention of it betrayed a “nationalist” agenda and interfered with practical attempts to get international and ultimately Turkish recognition of the Armenian Genocide.

Turks today enjoy economic power built in part on the massive amount of expropriated wealth taken from Armenians and on land depopulated of Armenians. Not only has the wealth been passed down through the generations, it has been the basis for further economic development. This gain has been matched by the increasing loss of not only the initial wealth and land, but all the economic gains that would have been made with it by Armenians.

A decade ago, many of those considering the issue of the Armenian Genocide, including some deniers, recognized that some kind of development on the issue was necessary. Desires for a resolution of the issue were loaded into a vague notion of “dialogue” that dominated for a number of years. Hoped-for progress in Turkish-Armenian dialogue was presented as the path to the resolution of the Armenian Genocide issue. Dialogue about dialogue, however, did not engage substantively the issue of justice—or, in fact, that of differential power between Turks and Armenians in their national dimensions.[i] Some in the Armenian community, echoed by a few voices in Turkey such as Ragip Zarakolu and Temel Demirer, raised this challenge. The Armenian Genocide should be addressed not with just any resolution, but with a just resolution.

By perhaps three years ago, a critical mass of Armenians followed other victim groups in recognizing the importance of justness in any resolution of genocide, slavery, Apartheid, etc., and reparations as the most obvious and productive means of gaining that justice.  As a result, reparations is now recognized as a legitimate concern regarding the Armenian Genocide. While in previous eras, the question was whether or not the concept of reparations would even be allowed a minimal presence in discourse concerning the Armenian Genocide—in scholarly works on it, in commemoration programs, in political discussions, etc.—the issue is now no longer whether reparations for the genocide will be a topic of discussion, but instead whether reparations are a requirement for a just, long-term resolution of the Armenian Genocide. Some genocide scholars, Armenian Genocide scholars, Turkish scholars, Turkish political activists, Turkish community members, Armenian community members, and others still reject reparations as a component of a just resolution, but even they now recognize that formulation of a legitimate plan for resolution of the Armenian Genocide issue must go through a consideration of and debate about reparations.

And so the reparations question is now on the radar screen of those inside and out of the global Armenian community, as well as scholars, political activists, and others who take up the genocide as a contemporary issue. The increase in community discussion of reparations has, however, been undermined somewhat by a lack of clarity regarding what the term “reparations” means in these discussions. There are, in fact, two very different concepts operating. The conflation of the concepts can be an innocent simplification of the issue, but it can also serve the cause of those who are against the second, more meaningful form of reparations.

The first concept of reparations is as individual compensation for particular material losses resulting from actions taken by members of the perpetrator group during the Armenian Genocide. While the harms referenced were certainly genocidal, and recognition of the Armenian Genocide would be helpful support for making the case that these individuals experienced unjust losses during the genocide period—of movable or fixed property that would have been available for inheritance by their descendants, and so the property in question should be returned or compensated in the present—such returns or compensation would not be reparation for the Armenian Genocide itself. It is this form of reparation that is the subject of recent lawsuits filed in the United States.[ii]

The second concept views reparations as a possible form of justice for the overall Armenian Genocide, taken as a single, cohesive process of destruction planned and orchestrated by a set of people, executed by a broader set of participants, and targeting Armenians generally.[iii] While reparation is not an exclusive form of justice for the genocide, because such things as criminal punishment are no longer possible, it is now a focal point. The key goal of reparations thus conceived is rehabilitation. “Rehabilitation” has two dimensions here: First is rehabilitation of the perpetrator society away from the genocidal elements that were embedded through broad elite and common participation in the genocide, and that have persisted in the military, political, economic, and cultural institutions and practices of the Turkish state and society since, because they have never been exposed for what they are and expunged. Second is rehabilitation of the victim group that continues to suffer and be disadvantaged in significant ways that are a direct result of the Armenian Genocide.

What are the outstanding unjust benefits and harms of the genocide that reparations would address? Turks today enjoy economic power built in part on the massive amount of expropriated wealth taken from Armenians and on land depopulated of Armenians. Not only has the wealth been passed down through the generations, it has been the basis for further economic development. This gain has been matched by the increasing loss of not only the initial wealth and land, but all the economic gains that would have been made with it by Armenians. Similarly, Turkey is a major regional power, with political supremacy and a large territory and population. Had no genocide occurred, or even a genocide occurred but Turkish nationalists left the new Armenian Republic alone after World War I, then Armenia would be much larger territorially and thus much more sustainable and secure than the small landlocked country now is. A large state would have supported much greater population growth.  It would have provided a safer and more secure place for the development of Armenian families and communities by survivors.  This would have allowed survivors, including refugees who had fled far and Armenians forcibly Turkified during the Genocide, the space in which to reclaim their identity and rebuild their lives and communities. The population of this larger Armenian Republic might have been 20 million today, making Armenia a secure regional power next to a Turkey smaller than its current population.[iv]

This in turn would have meant a very different power relation between Armenia/Armenians and Turkey. For instance, with both having large territories and populations, it would be much more difficult if not impossible for Turkey to impose a blockade on Armenia, however much ethnic hatred might exist against Armenians. Turkey would have to treat Armenia and Armenians, including those within its borders, with at least outward shows of respect and care. Instead, today, as a result of the dominance existing under the millet system and maximized through the assertion of absolute Turkish power over life and property of Armenians through the genocide, Turkey and Turks exercise significant power over Armenia and Armenians in Turkey and around the world. They can denigrate Armenians, deny the genocide, interfere with the functioning of the Armenian state, and more, without consequences. They can destroy the Armenian cultural and architectural heritage still remaining in Turkey with impunity.[v] Armenians around the world remain subject to an asymmetrical domination relation that shows how much the genocide consolidated and extended the previous millet system.[vi] The genocide has ensured the long-term perpetuation of the millet system in effect, if not in formal legal structure. The “independence” of the Armenian Republic means only a constant struggle for survival and against forces of repression by a much more powerful—and unfairly powerful—Turkish state and society. Perhaps the most difficult irony to face is that much of the power of Turkey and Turks now deployed to further oppress Armenians is the direct or indirect product of the genocide. Of course, this is a common feature of large-scale systems and acts of oppression, as any study of the history of U.S. slavery and Jim Crow, Native American genocides, South African Apartheid, and so on will readily show.

Individual and culturally and institutionally embedded attitudes against Armenians persist in Turkey as well. According to these attitudes, Armenians are still fit targets of violence and frustration, and if an Armenian acts as an equal of a Turk—even in “progressive” Turkish circles—and demands to be treated as an equal human being with dignity and autonomy and to have his/her rights respected out of abstract ethical principle, not the whims of his/her overlords, s/he is subject to anger, hatred, and reprisals.[vii] Many Turks actually perceive Armenians acting as their equals as Armenians asserting dominance over Turks, because the presumption of Turkish superiority over Armenians is so deeply entrenched in Turkish culture.[viii]

To these effects of the genocide today, of course, many more can be added, not the least of which is the loss of 1.5 million Armenians who were killed and all those Armenians who would have been born to them, or their children, grandchildren, etc. There is also the suffering of hundreds of thousands of women and girls, as well as some boys, forced into sexual and/or domestic slavery. To this can also be added the effects of the trauma of genocide victimization for survivors and later generations.[ix] Indeed, a full listing and description of the impacts of the genocide on Armenians, and the gains for the Turkish state and society that correspond, could easily fill the pages of this publication and more.

As conceived by the Armenian Genocide Reparations Study Group and explained in its draft report,[x] the second form of reparations seeks to address these kinds of losses/gains, imbalances/dominations, and their continuing effects through a complex set of financial, territorial, educational, social, and symbolic initiatives. Reparations are not about a cash payment, for instance, though financial compensation should be part of the comprehensive approach. Instead, reparations are about the Turkish state and society taking responsibility for the ways in which they have benefited from the Genocide territorially, economically, politically, militarily, etc., and how much Armenians continue to be affected in terms of their identity, psychologies, culture, political prospects, economics, and more; reparations are about addressing both the morally wrong benefits and the desperate political and material needs of Armenians and their undermined identity and dignity resulting from the Genocide. These problems must be addressed, if not fully, at least to a reasonable degree, to change the horrific legacy of the Armenian Genocide. Reparations are the most appropriate means to do this.[xi] Offering substantive reparations would be a choice by the Turkish state and society to make some kind of meaningful sacrifice to share the burden of genocide in some very partial ways with Armenians, for whom the burden will always be much more than for Turks, even if Turks do as much as possible to address the genocide’s outstanding harms.

It is certainly true that the effects of genocidal violence and individual property theft have deeply affected specific Armenian individuals and families, and have been intertwined with the effects of the overall genocidal process for many Armenian individuals. At the same time, these two approaches to reparations are profoundly different, and in the coming discussions and debates about reparations must be kept clearly distinct. As more than a century of bitter experience with Turkish denial (starting in relation to the massacres of 1894-96) should have taught Armenians and others concerned with Armenians’ basic just existence, in the emerging debate on Armenian Genocide reparations, there will be those supporting Turkish impunity and genocidal gain who will do all they can to confuse the reparations issue. There will also be those in the Armenian community—from the Turkish Republic to the United States—who for their own agendas will subvert and manipulate discussions about reparations and any reparations process that ultimately comes out of them. While pursuit of individual compensation is an individual choice and no individual should be prevented from doing so by any kind of pressure, but should be supported in such endeavors, individual compensation lawsuits and related approaches should never be mistaken for a comprehensive reparations process toward justice for the Armenian Genocide. Successful individual claims should never be misrepresented as justice for the genocide and used to interfere with pursuit of justice. Individual suits could produce justice, but only justice for individual wrongful killings and wrongful thefts, not the whole genocide. Even class-action suits remain aggregations of individual concerns. Individual reparations payments go to individual Armenians. There is no requirement that they benefit any other Armenians or Armenian social, cultural, and political institutions and structures. Even if suit winners donate what they are awarded to Armenian organizations or invest them in the Armenian Republic, this still remains a private choice and activity that cannot address the Armenian Genocide on the broad political, cultural, and psychological levels it affects so deeply. Individual reparations as simply lawsuit processes do not function symbolically as justice. They cannot drive social rehabilitation in Turkey or support repair to the dignity and human worth of Armenians as Armenians. Such individual efforts at most complement rather than replace a broader, justice-focused approach.

The difference between these two concepts of reparations goes to the very core of genocide. There is a long-standing philosophical debate over whether groups are aggregates of individuals or have aspects that are not reducible to properties of the individuals who make them up. In specific terms, is the harming of a group merely the harming of each or many individuals within it, or are there added dimensions such that we can differentiate truly group harm from individual harm? Is justice for a group simply a just resolution for each member of the group, or is there something more that concerns the group that cannot be reduced to individual results? It would seem that this is the fault line between the two forms of reparation discussed in this paper, but this is not the case. Even those who reject the notion of “group harm” as anything more than an aggregate of individual harms recognize that when a group of individuals—with its social, cultural, and political interdependencies, shared interests, etc.—is harmed, the harm to the group as it affects individuals (they each lose aspects of their identity, dignity, social support network, supports for economic livelihoods, possibilities for political impact, etc.) is not simply a set of individual harms as would exist were there no group.[xii] The loss of the group is an individual harm, but not like individual harms in the absence of a group. As Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term “genocide” in 1943, conceived it, “genocide” is the destruction not just of the physical lives of a population but of the “essential foundations of the life of national groups,” including “the disintegration of the political and social institutions of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups.”[xiii] Addressing the Armenian Genocide requires addressing these harms, which means supporting reconstitution of the group structure insofar as it supports individual wellbeing. Individual compensation might help an individual balance a genocide’s long-term impact on him/her, but it will not support reconstitution of the group itself. Group reparation is required for this. And, if group reparation is required to address the harm of genocide as genocide—that is, as a group harm—then a just resolution of a genocide must include a reparative dimension.


[i] For an analysis of the Turkish-Armenian asymmetrical domination relation maximized through the Armenian Genocide and left intact ever since, see Theriault, “Genocide, Denial, and Domination: Armenian-Turkish Relations From Conflict Resolution to Just Transformation,” Journal of African Conflicts and Peace Studies 1:2 (September 2009), 82-96.

[ii] See, for instance, “Armenian Americans Sue Turkey for Genocide Losses,” The Armenian Weekly, July 30, 2010, www.armenianweekly.com/2010/07/30/armenian-americans-sue-turkey-for-genocide-losses.

[iii] The same Committee of Union and Progress/Young Turk genocidal process directed toward the destruction of Armenians targeted Assyrians and Greeks. While the present paper is focused on reparations for Armenians and the author does not have the expertise or standing to make claims about how Assyrians or Greeks should engage a reparations process, the basis of any reparations claims by Assyrians or Greeks, or made on their behalf, is the same basis of genocide that undergirds Armenian claims.

[iv] Alfred de Zayas, Jermaine McCalpin, Ara Papian, and Henry Theriault, Resolution With Justice–Reparations for the Armenian Genocide: The Report of the Armenian Genocide Reparations Study Group, unpublished draft, Oct. 20, 2010.

[v] Dickran Kouymjian, “Confiscation of Armenian Property and the Destruction of Armenian Historical Monuments as a Manifestation of the Genocidal Process,” Armenian Studies Program/California State University, Fresno, http://armenianstudies.csufresno.edu/faculty/kouymjian/articles/confiscation.htm.

[vi] Theriault, “Post-Genocide Imperial Domination,” in Khatchig Mouradian, editor, Controversy and Debate: Special Armenian Genocide Insert of the Armenian Weekly, April 24, 2007, pp. 6-8, 26.

[vii] Hrant Dink’s assassination is an example of this.

[viii] Theriault, “Rethinking Dehumanization in Genocide” in Richard G. Hovannisian, editor, The Armenian Genocide: Cultural and Ethical Legacies (New Brunswick, NJ: Transaction Press, 2007), pp. 27-40.

[ix] See, for instance, Anie Kalayjian, Siroon P. Shahinian, E.L. Gergerian, and L. Saraydian, “Coping with Ottoman Turkish Genocide: An Exploration of the Experience of Armenian Survivors,” Journal of Traumatic Stress 9 (1996): 87-97.

[x] De Zayas et al, op. cit.

[xi] See, for instance, Theriault, “Reparations as the Necessary Path to Improved Armenian-Turkish Relations,” paper presented as part of the “Issue of Reinstating the Rights of the Armenian People and Armenian-Turkish Relations” panel at the Pan-Armenian Conference for the Discussion of Armenian-Turkish Relations and the Artsakh Conflict,

Parliament Building, Stepanakert, Republic of Mountainous Karabakh, July 10, 2009.

[xii] See, as an example, Stephen Winter, “On the Possibilities of Group Injury,” in Claudia Card and Armen Marsoobian, editors, Genocide’s Aftermath: Responsibility and Repair (Malden, MA: Blackwell, 2007), pp. 111-131.

[xiii] Israel Charny, “Classification of Genocide in Multiple Categories,” in Charny, editor, The Encyclopedia of Genocide, Vol. 1 (Santa Barbara, CA: ABC-Clio, 1999), pp. 3-7 at 5.

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Henry Theriault

Henry C. Theriault earned his Ph.D. in Philosophy in 1999 from the University of Massachusetts, with a specialization in social and political philosophy. He is currently a professor in and chair of the Philosophy Department at Worcester State College, where he has taught since 1998. Since 2007, he has served as coeditor-in-chief of the peer-reviewed journal Genocide Studies and Prevention. His research focuses on philosophical approaches to genocide issues, especially genocide denial, long-term justice, and the role of violence against women in genocide. He has lectured widely in the United States and internationally.

81 Comments

  1. Reading this article, I must admit, has consolidated a distinct change in my thinking concerning the Armenian Genocide.  I say consolidated because the article puts into words an approach to the Genocide quite opposite to what I use to think.  That is I use to think, no way no how should reparations be mentioned until the Genocide is formerly recognized by the Turks.  The reasoning here is that the Turks would never admit to a crime for which the they do not know the punishment.  But this is exactly the point, why should they?  One only needs to think how they would act if the signing of a traffic ticket could mean life imprisonment or worse.  What I’m suggesting here is that rather than shy away from reparations we should embrace it, i.e. let the Turks know up front that yes, we want fair compensation for the pain and suffering endured over the last nearly 100 years because of the Genocide.  An important point though is that we let the Turks know that we do not want to destroy them in some kind of life imprisonment.  Rather, let Turks and Armenians come to some kind of mutually beneficial agreement such that both peoples can start the process of reconciliation based on truth and justice.  I emphasize mutually beneficial because Turks and Armenians could then start working together instead of fighting each other.  Wow… just imagine the possibilities.

  2. A truly excellent and enlightening article by Dr. Henry Theriault.

    What the US, Europe, and even Russia, along with the ICTJ report, David Phillips of TARC, some Congressmen, a US ambassador or two, Samantha Power, and several others want – and some of them have stated this explicitly in resolutions and articles – is what they see as the following “grand compromise”: 

    Turkey would acknowledge the genocide in some way – probably insincerely or not even using the word “genocide” – and walk away, while Armenians would formally give up all claims of reparations, restitution, and territory.  (And has anyone considered that one Turkish government can acknowledge the genocide while the next Turkish government in power will renounce that acknowledgment?)

    This grand “compromise” is their aim, and some Armenians – the reconcilation types – have fallen for this. 

    Some people love David Phillips, for example.  They don’t understand that these people have their own goals (to open the Armenian border for Western penetration, for example), and don’t care one whit about Armenian rights. 

    I touched on this issue a few years ago in an article, and I believe it is still relevant and something we must  watch out for.  Genocide acknowledgment will come at a steep price if our alleged “friends” have their way:
    http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Ambassador_Evans_and_the_Denial_of_Armenian_Rights

  3. Dear Mr. Henry Thenault,

    Simple calculations shows that had Genocide never occurred, the number of Armenians living worldwide would be between 50 million to 80 million (the later value is more likely, because genocidal campaign started from Adana massacres and not in 1915, and continued until the Sardarabad battle). Therefore, although I respect your good work, I cannot ignore such exponential population miscalculation. It was my humble thought to point this mistake in your otherwise good article.

    Please note also that reparation for Genocide was and is very concretely defined by President Wilson’s decision and final signature. There never was any confusion on this matter (as your article assumes). We want all our lands back, but Wilson’s drawn map would be a first step towards the negotiation process.
    The major first step of reparation is the return of the homeland of the indigenous people. Homeland is not just a land or property, but the cradle for their indigenous people in which they can survive.
    With the current Turkish, NATO and US policies (along with assimilation processes worldwide), Armenia and therefore Armenians may not survive another century, unless a miracle in the political and cultural chains occurs. In other words, Turkish genocidal campaign being incorporated by Turkey’s current allies is being aggressively pursued and still in force even as we speak of.
     

  4. Maybe this opens the possibility of millions of Turks being able to recover immeasurable wealth and benefit they lost as result of unjust wars, rebellions and outright ethnic cleansings from all over Europe, Middle East and Asia.. 

  5. A quick question…let’s assume, for arguments sake, that everything that you dashnaks wanted/ demanded came true. Your demands include 1/3 of Eastern Anatolia and over $64 Billion. My question is this…how would you enforce the ruling? Which country, in this age of mass turmoil and war, will be willing to send their kids to battle just to appease your nation? Of course, you dashnaks and Armenia are always free to try it yourselves! Wake up!!!! You’re living in a dream world!!

  6. Murat:  First of all, Turks who “lost immeasurable wealth and benefit as result of unjust wars, rebellions and outright ethnic cleansings from all over Europe, Middle East and Asia” were occupiers. As, I hope, you understand. Seljuk Turks invading from the Kazakh steppes and Altay mountains had never in the history of the mankind been the owners of those lands. Therefore, their loss was REGAINING of the lands and property for their rightful owners: Greeks, Serbs, Romanians, Bulgarians, Albanians, and Arabs. Second, could you please indentify, if you can, where are the Armenians in the equation even if we admit that Turks “lost immeasurable wealth and benefit as result of unjust wars, rebellions and outright ethnic cleansings from all over Europe, Middle East and Asia”? Would be curious to know an “expert” opinion of a Turk…

  7. Sometimes I am really surprised ,reading some comments as to the effect , that great Turkey will be cajoled,convinced ,persuaded-take your choice-to make restitutions that easily. They either must be pressed  by their master-allies to do so,when indeed no monies will be shown- to arbitrating parties  -in their govt.coffers-or else Armenians must  mainly rely on getting cuts(percentage) from non-returnable handouts  that  great Turkey  receives, say , as an example…from the 1.6 billion dollars  Transit Duties  of the Oil pipeline.
    Reason? simple…they have been accustomed to RECEIVE  never to give…

  8. Murat (or whoever is writing under that name this time), I agree with Gor.  Turkish people may have suffered defeat, massacre and displacement when subjugated peoples in the Balkans and elsewhere rebelled against the Ottoman domination in order to realize their own national independence, but how does this justify the genocide of the Armenians?  The Turkish refugees from Rumelia who found new homes in Anatolia following the Balkan Wars, were incited by CUP to find outlet of their wish for vengeance by attacking the Armenians, who, though they too wanted the right to self-determination, had nothing to do with the Turkish losses in the Balkans or elsewhere in Europe, Russia and Asia.  It was pan-turanism fueled by anger over losses in Europe that directly led to the Armenian Genocide.

    People want to be free to live on the land they call home and in the traditions of their forefathers. That was all the people of the Balkans wanted and that is all the Armenians wanted. But your war-mongering ancestors just couldn’t accept this then, just as your over-exaggerated national pride rejects it today.   Turkey has no right to claim my history and my traditions as her own, or to benefit from all she stole from Armenians.

  9. Dear all,
    reparations for property appropriated or destroyed is an acknowledged principle anyhow. If Turks or the Turkish government wanted to raise the issue, they are free to do. I was informed last year by an Armenian living in Norway that actually talks about reparations for Ottoman property held by Ottoman Armenians whose decendants live in Syria today are underway as part of negotiations between the two governments. I assume that this also applies to Ottoman turks who owned land and enterprises in Syria.

    I would however be careful about the term “occupier”. What does it mean? The present citizens of the US are in an important sense occupiers because they live on the lands of indigenous Americans, who indeed can be said to be subjected to genocide. Or is this unreasonable?

    Since it is april 24 today, at least here in Russia where I am at the moment, I want to submit a greeting to all who commemorate mass killings and genocide, and particularly to Armenians all over the world.

  10. Now you can be surprised, as a Turkish person I agree that some kind of reparation should be paid but I also think it will be unfair to present people because people took Armenian wealth are dead and a new generation who has nothing with this will pay this with their hard labor. I think a way should be found to find who benefits now from this and only they should be punished.

  11. I think every Armenian, who reads this grate article, must  pass it to his or her friends, thank you Dr. Henry Theriault and The Armenian Weekly, good job.

  12. Mr.RN*

    You are speaking about an apple lost in the desert…
    We are speaking about apple trees …
    Orchids in our lands in vast lands 
    Before BC…before you’re born…

    Ottomans killed and confiscated everything 
    From pen to ink

    Arabs are honest people…
    Turks spoiled their names…
    By saying bad proverb about them…
    If you don’t know turkish I can translate to you
    We lived with Arabs all our lives
    We know them better than you do…
    Turks killed Us… Arabs saved us
    From the so called soulless humans…

    I hear every now and then
    How many Arabs looked after our orphans and married them
    Now their grand children tell their painful stories…and curse the Turks 
    Sometimes I ask what was orphan’s original name…they don’t know
    Because they could not pronounce Armenian names… 
    They called them Miriam as Mary because they were christian
    Respecting their origin and religion… 
    Ottomans Turkified Armenians changed their names,
    Their language, religion and they lost their complete identity…

    I heard this story just a week ago
    Arab Sheik found an Armenian orphan in the Arabian desert
    They called the orphan Muhammad Alnusrani (The christian Muhammad)…
    (Lived with Al-Dufairi Tribe, God bless their soil)
    He was 7 years when they found him and cared for him
    until he died at old age…he did not get married…

    The largest tribe cared for Armenian are
    Al-Anzi, Al-Shammari, Al-Dufairi…Saudi Royal Family.
    They tell me there is old man from Al-Anzi Tribe
    He keep his Armenian Mother’s Photo under his pillow
    And prays for her… telling his grand children
    How kind and beautiful she was…   

    Mr RN
    Don’t defend for genes…
    They did horrible things
    Can’t be cleaned from history
    By finding silly excuses
    From a blood…you aren’t from thems…
    I can’t understand your defend
    Do you have some of their blood to act this way???
    Even who belongs to them
    Like Orhan Pamuk and many others
    Recognized Armenian Genocide 
    Abandoning them…
    Thus…Awake…Awake
    Don’t protect the slayers…their race
    And their endless crimes till today…

    Sylva
     

  13. REALPOLITIK-You see, only Mert,up above  understood what I meant to convey.The present turkish govt.(s) are the responsibles,as inheritor  of previous Ottoman ,Ataturk rulers.
    Only way that  the governing Body of said entity called Turkey  should be summoned to appear at  the ICJ at the Haague and any verdict that will ensue ,indeed will befall them,not the ordinary turk on the street or village.The Govt. must then make restitutions!!!
    Only way facile/feasible  is through what I have suggested .That  is at present ona  yearly basis the BP, and other Oil companies  pay for Oil Transit that passes  through Turkey $1.600.000.000.Part  of this revenue  that goes to the govt. coffers/treasury ought to be  paid directly-not by the turkish govt. but by the POil companies(who were also instrumental in by-passing Armenia(shortest route ) to Jeyhan,turkish port.You see,in a way  the Oil companies  are  involved in this…
    Thence once, the govt(s) of the aforementioned  countries admit to Genocide against armenians by prev.Govt. of Turkey, they will -probably-be required  bythhe  ICJ to make amends,since the culprit ,i.e.  great Turkey is very unlikely to make monetary restitutions directly. Above method may be employed in order to receive the CASH part  of  the reparations and that in my humble opinion  for BLOOD  MONEY(which has precedent-the jewish  one-also insurance companies  made to pay to Armenian survivors
    Most importantly our quest for Real property(land etc.) will undergo yet another process ,which will-whether we like it  or not-the KURDS.they are  there on land ,some 16 million…
    These issues  are to be handled  not by one or a few Armenian Attorneys  but the already existing  Armenian BAR Association,which includes International  Law attorneys judges,barristers as well. So until then we must concentrate on this last paragraph.

  14. NEW  DEVELOPMENTS  TAKE SOME OF US BY SURPRISE.THIS MAINLY OUR BRETHREN IN RA AND SOME NAIVE  ONES IN DIASPORA.SUCH AS EVEN FROM THE TURKISH PARLIAMENT-   THIS MINUITE- 9 P.M. YEREVAN TIME,APRIL 24,2011.-THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT THE GENOCIDE TO ARMENIANS,BUT THEY IMMEDIATELY STOPPED  HIM.WAS A KURD,THEY STIFLED  HIS VOICE,WENT BACK TO SIT  IN IN SEAT.THEN NOW WITH SAME GUY THE KURD  A N INTERVIEW  IS IN PLACE AT  HIS HOME OR OFFICE.THIS IS  200%turkish style  their yavash yavash  by abd by.hasan Jemal COMES  THEN OTHERS TO TZITZERNAKAPERT  KNEEL DOWN  , THEN MAKE IT KNOWN  THAT  THIS WAS  IN THE PAST  , WE DO ACCEPT  IT HAS HAPPEND  A  MEDZ  YEGHERN BUT TURKS  SUFFEWRED  TOO. SO ON SO FORTH .IT MAKES  ONE SICK TO LISTEN OR WATCH THIS VERY UGLY TIURKS .MAIN THING  IS IF  THESE -SOME GOOD PEOPLE- HAVE THE GUTTS  , THEY SHOULD GO TALK TO THE EREGENKON GOD  D  S-B … ING  BS…
    IT IS ENOUGH STOP IT OR GO .
    RIGHT NOW ANOTHER  SUCH OMEN OYMEN  OR  SOME SUCH G-D SELJUK NAME  WHO PUT MY UNCLE AND GRADNFATHER ON DEATH  MARCH  TO THEIR DEATH..CONFISCATING  THEIR HOUSE  SHOP AND ALL. AND NOW  THIS CHAP IS SAING    THAT 36000  TURKS WERE  KILLED-JUST  GO FIGURE OUT  HOW THIS GUY DOES  NOT SAY 40/50 thousnad ..armenians have the obligation to beg  pardon from us  for  these deaths…
    Oymen  is the name  of this low character..
    Hell. it is not worth talking to  these people.if some do and listen to them let  thm  do so.i for one  believe  IN NJDEH AND HIS LIKE..FIRST WE MUST TAKE CARE  OF THE LITTLE  BROTHER  ,TELL THEM AS  OF TOMORROW YES TOMORROW  WE WAXNT  SHAHUMIAN BACK  AND NAKHIJEVAN RETURNED TO  UNDER OUR JURISDICTION AS  AN AUTONOMOUS REPUBLIC,WHICH IT IS  NOT UNDER AZERI …SO GO GRIND YOUR  OXYDATED AXES  ELSEWHERE. THIS OTHER  YOUNG CHAP NOW  RIGHT NOW ON SHANT T-.V. SAYS  ARMENIANS KILLED   HUNDREDS  OF THOUSANDS  OF TURKS….
    ONE WOULD ASK  WITH WHAT  WITH AF EW  MOUSERS  OR PAPER CUTTING KNIVES -LIKE MY DAD  USED TO SAY…YOU S.O  B  ING  LIARS. TO HELL WITH YOU!!!!!
    OUR  YOUNG  ARE  THERE  RIGHT NOW  I AM ENJOYING  ANOTHER ONE THIS WAS  MY YOUNG FRIEND  SHAHINIAN  IN SWITZERLAND  TAKING THAT  B. TO COURT ,FOR HE DENIED  THE GENOCIDE TO ARMENIANS  THE COURT  FINED  HIM AND THRE  HIM OUT  OF SWITZERLAND  WE SHALL YET WIN  MANY LIKE  THSE….IT IS OUR TIME  NOW  NEXT  IS THE FRENCH SENATE…JUSGT  WAIT.THIS  OTHER YOUNG TURK NOW  ON T.V. SCREEN SAYS ARMENIASN  LEFDT  ON THEIR OWN WISH..DECISION  YOU SO AND SO

  15. “I would however be careful about the term “occupier”. What does it mean? The present
    citizens of the US are in an important sense occupiers because they live on the
    lands of indigenous Americans, who indeed can be said to be subjected to
    genocide. Or is this unreasonable?”

     
    From Oxford dictionary: “Occupation” is the action, state, or period of occupying by military force. In the 11-12 centuries AD nomadic Seljuk Turks, coming from the steppes of Mongolia and Altay Mountains have occupied by military force the indigenous, sedentary nations densely inhabiting Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau: mainly Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, and the Armenians. Their occupation has ultimately resulted in the settlement of Turks on the lands of those nations and the widespread physical extermination of these Christian nations that are largely viewed as an act of genocide. Occupation and the consequent genocide should not be mixed with the colonization of the New World, as in North and South Americas, because Europeans and Conquistadors did not represent the official governments for the North American Indians or Latin American aborigines. Whereas the race extermination of the Armenians, Greeks,
    and Assyrians was clearly conducted by the Ottoman Turkish government that they
    were subjects of. This does not in any way diminish the tragedy of the Indians in the hands of the European colonizers. And, no, the present citizens of the US are not in any case occupiers, their ancestors were. But at least the modern US governments acknowledged the gross mistreatment of Indians, whereas the Turks stubbornly deny the truth that the rest of the world knows so well…

  16. Murat, I have no fear or shame for going to the courts. My ancestors have not exterminated Turks as a race in an act of genocide and now live in your original lands in the Kazakh steppes and the Altay mountains presenting Turkish mosques as Christian churches… See the difference??

  17. Good article.

    1.That’s why I say again: go TODAY and visit/invest/live/buy a property in liberated Armenian territories in Republic of Artsakh (Karabakh). Start from THERE.

    2. In the future Armenia will have KURDS (officially) as its neighbor, which is GOOD news for both ones. We need a new song: half in Armenian, half in Kurdish.
    
    Turkey has a HUGE Kurdish problem-a ticking bomb, which is being exploded. Once it explodes fully, it will shake EVERYTHING in Turkey.

    EU rejected Turkey- this time directly  to its FACE. Well, now Turks look towards their “old friends” in the East. “zero problem”? or zero memory?

    First the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and now the collapse of Turkish State/Empire?  Looks like that.  And, of course, they have to blame someone. And who is left? Kurds, of course. Genocide is a Turkish Hobby.  20 million Kurds. Plus 10+ million in surrounding countries and mountains. THIS time WE will be the spectator.

    PS. Robert- do not worry. There will always be one.

  18. FIRST, Resolution in the International Court of Justice at the Haague; SECOND, Reparations of land and payment of monies for stolen properties and personal wealth; THIRD, Reconcilation.

    No other sequence will satisfy the descendants of the one and a half million Armenian people murdered on their historic lands by an occupying government.

  19. Time for a strong, clear, unapologetic push for justice that includes reparations, reparations reparations.  This has nothing to do with racism or hatred of Turks.   Genocide is universally condemned and it’s perpetrators (and descendants) should not be allowed to gain from their crimes. Armenians have rights and have every reason to fight for what is theirs.  No more shame, no more victimology, no more defeatism.  Just courageous action that comes from knowing that wrongs must be set right.   We have spent too much money on getting US Genocide recognition which has limited benefit to us at best.  Also arguing with close-minded Turks on this website is fruitless.  We should take our case to the courts and obtain money, land, and determinations of guilt.

  20. i think that the armenians has a real mental problem here.they are a thiny community but they pretend to be great nation competing with turkey.the same habit caused your removal from turkey a century ago.stick to your old habit .congratualion.

  21. “In the 11-12 centuries AD nomadic Seljuk Turks, coming from the steppes of Mongolia and Altay Mountains have occupied by military force the indigenous, sedentary nations densely inhabiting Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau.”

    See, one learns something new here every time.  I thought Seljuk Turks fought Romans to gain entry into Asia Minor, not any other indigenous nation or state.  In fact, they had many “locals”, including various Armenian tribes and other Christian regiments on their side.  Then again, I know there is history, then there are facts and then there are myths.  What do I know…

    Was it not those very Romans who had buthchered the early Christians?  One of these days go to Goreme and see the wonderful underground cities and fortified castles built by the earliest Christians to escape the Roman massacres.

    Seljuks did not really hail from Central Asia either of course.  It took a few centuries for them to slowly cross Persia and Trans-Saxonia.  Picking up many local cultures and habits along the way, including Islam.  Then again, what do I know, there are so many experts here!

  22. Monastras wrote:

    i think that the armenians has a real mental problem here.they are a thiny community but they pretend to be great nation competing with turkey.the same habit caused your removal from turkey a century ago.stick to your old habit .congratualion.

    That’s funny Monastras because I would describe Turks as having the problem:  1. An over-exaggerated national pride based on a long history of war-mongering and subjugating indigenous nations; 2. Pretending to be a great nation based on cultural traditions stolen from subjugated peoples subsumed through forced islamization; 3. Securing their foothold on the Armenian plateau by committing genocide almost a century ago; and 4. Revealed the cold barbarism that lies just beneath their skin. 

    Sticking to old habits.  Sorry, no congratulations.

  23. This is a very touching article, but I have just one question that I am unable to come up with an answer. How are Armenians/Armenia going to get compensation and territorial ones at that from Turkey. I don’t that a genocide did not happen, but it happened almost a 100 years ago and in a couple of years it will be more than a hundred years ago. No one alive today took part in it or has recollection of it. So again how are Armenias going to achieve this goal when the most powerful country in the world doesn’t recognize it?

  24. Greatness of a nation is not measured by the size of territory it occupies or the number of its population. Greatness of a nation is measured by the contribution it has made in the human civilization. Armenians have made significant contributions in the spheres of arts, sciences, architecture, business and trade, etc. We are not a community, we are one of the most ancient nations inhabiting the Earth at the times when the term “Turkey” or “Turks” were non-existent. We don’t have to “pretend” to be a great nation, because our great history is witnessed and documented in historical manuscripts written by Hebrews, ancient Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Persians, and Byzantine Greeks. It’s not a habit, it’s a documented historical fact. Only those nations that popped up on the world map recently pretend to be great nations, because they lack history, national identity, and the record of contributions into the world civilization. Ancient nations normally laugh at such cheap pretentiousness.

    As for our “removal” from Turkey, first, we’ve been on those lands for millennia and the fact that we just happened to be occupied by the Seljuk Turks and colonized by the Ottoman Empire doesn’t mean that we were “in” Turkey forever. History- and chronology-ise, it’d be correct to say that Seljuk and Ottoman Turks have appeared in Asia Minor and paved tgheir way by sword and fire amongst Armenians, Byzantine Greeks, and Assyrians only in the 11th century AD. Second, no guest nation, such as Turks, is given the right to “remove” indigenous nations inhabiting a region, especially by means of barbarism exhibited by the Turks. This forced “removal” had led to the crime that the world increasingly recognizes as genocide. Are you proud that your ancestors were mass murderers, rapists, torturers, mutilators, convertors to Islam, and thieves. Great nations wouldn’t be proud of such barbarian record, because great nations largely create, whereas petty nations largely destroy. I can see that even in the 21st century your nation sticks to the old habit of destroying anything non-Turkish, and not creating something or apologizing for destroying other nations that could make your nation great as well. Congratulations to you, too…

  25. One, indeed, learns something new—and moronic—here sometimes, especially when the author is a Turk by the name Murat. I always knew that Romans ceased to exist in the 4th century AD, but a Turk by the name Murat assures us that “Seljuk Turks fought Romans(?!) to gain entry into Asia Minor.” Hmmm, I wonder, how could nomadic hordes of Seljuk Turks that originated in the Mongolian steppes and the Altay mountains and invaded Asia Minor only in the 11th century AD fight Romans who ceased to exist in the 4th century?! One should know the peculiarities of a Turkish mentality to find a clue and also understand Kemalist egomania in individuals like Murat who claims he can distinguish between historical facts and myths… If by “Romans” the newly-cooked historian Murat really meant the Byzantine Greeks, then let us forgive this commentator for sheer ignorance…

    But on one point he is, amazingly, half-right. Some Armenian and other Christian regiments did fight on the part of the invading Seljuk tribes. But he seems to fail to understand that it was not done because of civilized nature of the Seljuk Turks or their unconditional love for the natives of Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau. At the time Armenian principalities (Murat, reserve the term “tribes” to Seljuk Turks, since Armenians had statehood at the times when the term “Turks” was non-existent) were sandwiched between the Byzantines from the West and the new-comer nomads, Seljuk Turks, from the East. Therefore, fighting one force against the other was the only thing Armenians (as well as any other nation) could do to preserve their sovereignty.

    Then, the historian Murat gives an example of Romans (this time Romans indeed, Romans to their bones, so to speak) who had butchered early Christians. What does this have to do with the Seljuk invasion into Asia Minor, we wouldn’t know unless we try to understand the peculiar Turkish mentality and their superb knowledge of undistorted history, but the fact is that pagan Romans indeed saw the spread of Christianity with alarm and the Christians were subjected to all kinds of most oppressive, murderous treatment at first. Then, as Christianity spread in the 2nd-3rd centuries in Rome and beyond, the genuinely Roman emperor Constantine has adopted the new religion in the 4th century after it was adopted as a state religion by the Armenians in 301AD, who thus became the first officially Christian nation on the Earth. However, Roman mistreatment of the early Christians was seen as prevention for the spread of a new religion, whereas the Seljuk and Ottoman Turks’ oppression of the Christians was a way for gaining new territories, theft of national culture and edifices, and, at the times of the Ottoman Empire, millet oppression and finally physical extermination of the Christian Greeks, Assyrians, and the Armenians in the acts of genocide.

    On the “expert” point of the origins of the Seljuks. Yes, it took some time for them to reach the new lands of Asia Minor, but their origin (repeat: origin) is documented to be in the Central Asian steppes and the Altay mountains, that is nowhere near where the descendants of the Seljuks and Mongols (read: modern-day Turks) currently live. But what do I know? There’s an expert Murat writing here. Thanks for at least acknowledging that on their way to Asia Minor nomadic Seljuk Turkish tribes picked up many local cultures and habits. Why? Because nomads never have their own. And as such they largely remain…

  26. Mert (4/24/2011) writes:

    “I also think it will be unfair to present people because people took Armenian wealth are dead and a new generation who has nothing with this will pay this with their hard labor. I think a way should be found to find who benefits now from this and only they should be punished.”

    I understand your concern regarding fairness to the Turks of today.  It is a not surprising; but sometimes when the scales of justice have tilted so fair off center as they did during the Armenian Genocide, the correction for the imbalance involves a hard swing in the other direction before it can find its proper balance again.  It’s simple physics in a way.  

    I am not looking for revenge, but how do you propose that Armenians can be properly compensated without Turks feeling a ‘pinch.’  Perhaps if Turks could come to the proper realization of the evil that was done in their name they would not feel a ‘pinch’ from the correction, but a ‘sigh of relief’ as the burden of guilt is eased from they’re shoulders through acts of redemption.  People can be surprisingly capable of forgiveness and forgiveness can be surprisingly abundant in the face of sincere repentance.

    You are more open minded than most.  Perhaps you can start a conversation within your circle that will contemplate how to accomplish this in a way that promotes peace for all the peoples of Asia Minor and the Caucasus.   It starts with us.  ‘Government’ always seeks to preserves imbalance of power in its own favor.  Plus there is a very sick element within your society (ultra-nationalists) that glorifies Turkish dominance that must be confronted by peace loving Turks.

  27. monastras:
     
    The ones with mental problem are the Turks, at least their leadership.
    Do you think a normal national leader would order the destruction of  a nothing-statue in the middle of nowhere as Erdogan did, because it had the word ‘Armenian’ in it ?
    Do you think a normal national leader would sue someone because he ‘insulted’ him by ‘alleging’ his mother was Armenian, as Gul did ?
     
     
    Turks have improbably deluded themselves that they are a “proud”, “great” nation.
    Tell me, if you are so proud and great why is that for 25 years you have been  knocking on the door of Christian EU to be let in – they don’t let you in – and you still beg to be let in ?
     
     
    Tell me, if you are so great, why is it that every modern factory in Turkey was designed and created by Christian Europeans, mainly Germans.
    Why is it that every piece of military hardware your military uses was designed and created by Christian engineers and scientists in Europe, Russia, and US ? Without the massive financial and military aid from the Christian West, Turkey would be as modern as Afghanistan: consider that next time you hallucinate about Moslem Turkish greatness.
     
     
    If you are such a great military power, why is that after Israeli commandos murdered 9 Turks on Mavi Marmara, Erdogan has yet to sail to Gaza on a Turkish Navy ship, as he promised he would a year ago ?
     
     
    And Armenians were not, quote, ‘removed’: your cowardly Ottoman ancestors first disarmed all fighting age Armenian men, massacred them (very ‘brave’ of Turks), before they proceeded to murder unarmed, defensless old-men, women, children, babies, and the unborn.
     
     
    And don’t be too cocky: half of Turkey’s  population is not of Turk origin.  Turkey will disintegrate in due course  just like the Ottoman empire.
    Armenians will simply wait and reclaim what’s ours – without shedding a drop of our blood.
     

  28. Alp asks, regarding territorial compensation:

    “…how are Armenias going to achieve this goal when the most powerful country in the world doesn’t recognize it? ”

    The truth is that the world has always recognized that what happened to the Armenians was Genocide, even before Lemkin coined the word that names the act.  And the United States long ago recognized the genocide when it led the way for the reilef efforts during and after WWI as well as the effort to find justice for Armenians through President Wilson’s work on the Treaty of Sevres.  More recently, in 1981, President Ronald Reagan officially recognized the Genocide in a Presidential Declaration.   The lack of a clear statement from Obama today does not change any of this.  Even Obama states diplomatically that his pre-presidential declarations regarding his views on the Genocide “have not changed.”  Armenians have spent too much time, energy, and money in recent years trying to garner this declaration.  We don’t need it.  The Truth stands and the US history supports it.  We can achieve our goals without a genocide resolution.

  29. Even though what Avery ,Gor  and Anmanoon  have very masterly(varbedoren) cleverly and perfectly pinpointed the faults  of that self-acclaimed SECOND  master Race(After Hitler) and the turks may not have any substantial facts to contradict them.-I suggest ,that we also consider and  THINK whyThe Europeans to begin with since  WWI and  Since  WWII also the  Anglo-Ams  have  not only sided  with this Evil breeding nation.If only for their own safety,what safety? Against a ten fold-especially then,during WWII-soviet union,the  important Northern neighbour,when they should know better  than  that.Also what they did THEN,i.e., when at the 11th hour  only they declared war  on Germany.Prior to which they were awaiting to see Germany triumph  so as to attack first RA (/Caucasses,then thrust Northward…
    But if  it has been for other reasons than that,which has recently become quite obvious,which is the OIL  rich regions of the Caspian and the Warm waters surrounding area  of the Gulf,then this becomes obvious that we should resign from staking  our hopes  on above  Euro -Ams.They prefer Turkey to us and will invest help and side with them to the chagrion of Armenians ,Greeks and Arabs,Kurds alike.
    What would a clever  of the latter  do or think to do to save skin and also not fall behind from neighbour great Turkey(made so by above  mentione ¨allies¨) ? Simple  enough.
    Try to find allies elsewhere and also build on self abilities  full-throttle wise
    Never underestimate  our own capabilitites.We  are small,but we can muster up clout,courageously defend our rights and amongst  similar  small and middle size  nations seek partners.Also recently EMERGING  POWERS,SAY, INDIA, CHINA, AND BRAZIL.We have good contacts  in Brazil with an old Armenian Colony there,even older in India, less so with China.But china did  not like at all what  Mr. Davutoglu said  while visiting China´s  UYGHUR  region….
    Thence , we can also develop relations with  that  Giant  as well.Iran, is and  has always maintained  a positively  neutral position,while also getting developed  and rich with Oil and other minerals.A  neighbour  that  has potential and abilities  to share  with.
    best to you all and easy, please easy…

  30. LOL. “I thought Seljuk Turks fought Romans to gain entry into Asia Minor.” A new terminology used by Turks as opposed to the rest of the world. It turns out that explicit military invasion and occupation is now called “entry into an area”. How lovely! Following the Turkish example, the rest of the world must now call Nazi invasion into Europe as “entry” into Europe. Maybe the 1974 Turkish military occupation should also be termed as “entry” into Cyprus?

  31. Be careful, people. While you are focusing all of your energies on the genocide, the traditional anti-Armenian powers are plotting its demise once again. Oil is the prize, and yes, they see us as an obstacle. This threat is very real…in some ways, much more real than 1915, if you can imagine outside the box…you will see this reality. So, wake up…pay close attention…and do not fall for the distractions that are thrown in your faces to keep you busy, while behind the scenes, alot of evil is being planned. Many ‘leaders’ have taken the bait, but I urge them all to be very careful.

  32. To a commentator posting under penname “Alp”:

    You say: “No one alive today took part in [the genocide of Armenians] or has recollection of it.” If this is so, why doesn’t your modern-day government acknowledge that your predecessors, who are not alive today, have committed a crime of genocide against millions of Armenians?  Might you know?  As for recollection of the genocide, how can a modern Turk have any recollection of this shameful crime of your grandfathers if your history books and state propaganda methodically stuff your Turkish heads with the rubbish that it was unarmed disorganized Ottoman Armenians who massacred poor Turks in central and central-eastern provinces of the Empire that haven’t seen any war frontlines?

  33. Hey Arm_K,

    How about the illegal occupation of NK in 1992!!! Do not dare make any comparrisson to Cyprus (something that you know NOTHING about)!! ARMENIA…GET OUT OF NK!!!!

  34. The only illegal occupation of Karabagh/Artsakh came about as a result of Stalin handing it over to the newly minted ‘republic’ of Azerbaijan. Try to find a country called Azerbaijan before 1920…it never existed !  The dozens of ancient Armenian historical edifices that date to the earliest eras of history, both pre and post-Christian didn’t build themselves. So please, get real.

  35. Hey Robert, NK (Artsakh) was wrongfully incorporated into the made up nation of Azerbaijan.   It was never truly Azeri; even Azerbaijan isn’t truly Azeri, but the bastard child of a dirty deal between USSR and Turkey.  Study the finer points of this history.  It is an unavoidable conclusion that Artsakh should never have been ‘Azerized’ and the people of Artsakh have the right to their self-determination.

  36. Yes, and Cyprus was once 100% Turkish and should have never ben annexed by UK and then handed over to Greeks against their own treaties….  EU should have never accepted a diviced Cyprus… Russians should have not cleansed Crimea of its Crimean Tatrs, should not have leveled Chechneya to keep it Russian, the Palestine and on and so on…  The fact is massive amount of Azeris had to be cleansed out of Karabag to make it Armenian.  Internationally recognized borders were trempled upon and lands confiscated.  So in essence, what is said is guns rule, I understand, which is a fact of life, except when it is the Turkish guns it seems.  What a strange line of thought in a thread discussing justice and reperations.  Can you spell hipocracy?

  37. Karekin — Genocide recognition is an inseparable part of the all-national cause. The advancement of it and the strengthening of the Republic and Artsakh must go hand in hand. Not focusing energy on one element of the cause will automatically invite greater threat for the other. You need to understand this.

  38. On the other hand, Karekin, why should Armenians be seen as an obstacle for the traditional anti-Armenian powers’ oil paranoia? As far as we know, the Baku oil uninterruptedly flows via TBC to Turkey and the West. Let them eat it! Why should bypassed Armenia be “careful”?

  39. While I totally understand the importance of genocide, there seems to be some lack of awareness of the precarious and delicate situation Armenia is in right now. Yes, you can want everything….but in reality, you can’t have it. If it were otherwise, we would have recognition, we would have reunited w/ Karabagh by now, free and clear, etc, etc, etc. To constantly swim against the tide is not productive. As for Armenia being an ‘obstacle’, that is not my personal view, but clearly is the view of Turkey, the US and others who would prefer to see it dry up and go away. They have all had their chance to help, support and encourage Armenia, recognize the genocide, etc., but instead, they do just the opposite…over and over again. These are just the facts and they must think we are truly stupid to put up with their nasty games. No one is being honest and sadly Armenia suffers.

  40. “Yes, you can want everything….but in reality, you can’t have it.” It is true Karekin, but why only for Armenians?  Maybe a time is near when Turks and Turko-Azeris can finally have not all what they want? And be accountable for their crimes, too?

  41. I don’t know the answer, Gor, but maybe we should examine the roots of geopolitics, western sponsored military/capitalism, the power of oil, etc. Sadly, very sadly, Armenians have been used in the past and are being used again even now. Armenians have paid a huge price that is beyond imagination, as a result.  Historic lands stolen, history destroyed, families dispersed, thousands of years of civilization gone….for what and by whom?  Who were the benficiaries?  It was not by sultans who often had Armenian and other minority blood in their veins.  Their descendants also live in exile outisde of Turkey.  To find a criminal, always follow the money. There you will find your answer.   

  42. To Mr. Henry Theriault,
    Author of above article, entitled ¨Reparations are Essential…¨
    I trust  you have knowledge  of the Ottoman turkish character.which is quite different from Arab,Persian and Jewish and Armenian ones.
    When we started  our quest  for justice upon 50th Anniversary of the Genocide viz.,1965 perpetrated on us by Ottoman, Young tusk and Ataturk turkish governments,we had only just recuperated,regained only  a part  of our wholeness.We were very weak then.
    Since then all of our pleas  have fallen on non-hearing ears…
    As a christian nation situated in a very ¨sensitive¨ geographic area(read  oil rich)we have none the less behaved very appropriately,not stepping on anyone´s toes…
    tried  and maintained peaceful co-existance,after the demise  of the soviet union.We have succeeded  in this stance.Even in light of aggressive attitudes displayed towards  our tiny Republic and the brave  people  of Artsakh (Nagornyi Karabagh).At most  we have retaliated best we could against azeri(fake republic,created by no. not  soviet union, but endorsed  by latter,hoping to have  turco-azeris alike jump on the  Lenin -Stain advocated  World communist  brotherhood   wagon).
    Alas  this was  not to be.After the infamous Sumgait-Baku pogroms,it became clear to us that the truco -azeris are vigorously following  up the panturanistic dream.We fought back,as best  we could.NK ,contrary to what some may think is a fait a complit.Only reason it is being focused  upon(erroneously or intentionally) as yet to be resolved a complot. It is great Turkey policy to make this appear  as THE ONLY CONFLICT, or problem Armenians  have. They know full well the NK issue ,but they press on to make that appear as  such(only issue)This is clarevidente(clearly evident) when the Protocols, the infamous so,was advanced  by the powers,thinking they could thus iron out all issues ,as regards the Armenian  CAUSE/CASE.Not  so.We the vanguards  of the ¨remnants´of the Genocide against us,are just beginning are convalescence period. Getting geared  up so to speaj ,yet to prepare the file/claim ,that we shall present  in due course at ICJ and other instances  such as  the UN etc. This  is a Legacy  passed  on to us  by our Martyrs.
    I would earnestly ask  you to re-consider  the following.-
    1.  Hopefully, having by now acquainted  yourself with the turco-azeri character you will kindly consider to direct  your valued attention to our cause by appealing  to the powers to be and great Turkey-their diplomacy-if you will- to study more in depth our CASE.
    2. We intend to commence  -like  the Jews did- claiming  BLOOD  MONEY.With this precendent and other smaller  ones.
    2. Land  ,houses, churches  monasteries  ,schools and other Real estate,are lined  up to follow,subject to in depth studies  ,who lived  there and still do(Kurds,until  recently called  mountain turks) islamized  Armenians and above all,riches confiscated ,upon eviction.
    3. We are  famed  as  patient people(could not be otherwise),but with the advent  of a world  that believes  and lives  in a speedier environment,our desire and determination is to follow  up our CASE/CAUSE a bit faster.
    I do hope I have clarified to you and others that  Justice owed to us by the world is  overdue and awaits fair resolution.Fake,concocted  up turkish offers for concilliation -without begging pardon and restitution-  no more  valid.
    respectfully,
    G.P

  43. Listen, Murat:  Since when Cyprus was once 100% Turkish? OMG! It was once only a part of the Ottoman Empire, an occupational and colonizing creation of the Turks whose origins were nowhere near Asia Minor or the Balkans. You hint at our hypocrisy, but isn’t it hypocritical to claim as yours what has become yours only as a result of sheer military invasion and occupation (Seljuk Turks in the 11th and Mongols in the 13th centuries)? If Cyprus, whose history geos back to the 10th millennium BC, was once subjugated to the Ottoman Turks, does it make the island “yours”?! Where is your mentioning that the island was a part of the Hittite empire, Mycenaean Greece, that Cyprus occupies an important role in the world-renowned Greek mythology, was part of Assyria, and Alexander the Great’s Empire? Under all rules Cyprus managed to maintain a high degree of autonomy and remained oriented towards the Greek world.

    As for all other cases in history that you’ve enumerated—Russians in Crimea, Chechnya, Palestine, or Artsakh (Karabakh) that’s been an Armenian land throughout its history or at least an autonomous Armenian principality until the artificial creation of a nation now called Azerbaijan in (only!) the 20th century, no such crime as the deliberate extermination of a specific ethnic and religious group by its own government (as in the case of the genocide of Armenians by the Turks) has been registered.

    You need to understand that the Turkish crime against the Armenians was not an inter-ethnic clash or war, it was a crime against humanity, that’s been studied in the 1943and coined GENOCIDE. Can you spell it? A hint: start with the letter “G”…

  44. Murat, thanks for clearing that up.  I wasn’t sure, but now I know that you are ill-informed.

    This so called ‘fact’ is a lie:
    “The fact is massive amount of Azeris had to be cleansed out of Karabag to make it Armenian.” 

    Kindly provide the reference to support this statement or humbly retract it and admit that your anti-Armeniansm got the best of you.

    I urge you to study the history and not merely repeat this propaganda.  When was Cyprus 100% Turkish?  Do you simply ignore all world history prior to the emergence of the Ottomans in Asia Minor?  Do you mean to suggest that Turks are mere victims?

    Can you spell voluntary ignorance?

  45. Murat  —  Turks are not by any rate the hub of the world, they are the pimp of the world. Your nation emerged only in the 11-13th centuries AD with the invasion of the Seljuk Turks and Mongols and then got consolidated only in the 15th century with the formation of a colonizing and repressive Ottoman Empire. Your typically Turkish narrow-mindedness and self-centeredness unfortunately prevents you to develop a wider worldview and understand that many more people have lived and have created highly-developed civilizations l-o-o-o-ng before the popping-up of the Turks on the world map. Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, and Arabs inhabited the lands you now live on as a result of your invasions and subjugation long before the mankind came to know who the “Turks” were. This is the primary reason why your nation keeps experiencing hostility towards yourselves by many nations: Greeks, Cypriots, Bulgarians, Syrians, Assyrians, Persians, and Armenians, virtually every nation your artificial state is surrounded by. Because your ancestors breached into the region with fire and sword and by means of oppression and physical extermination made themselves a room in the area inhabited by others for millennia. Not only that, but your ancestors also ennobled their nomadic origin by interbreeding with and converting to Islam the representatives of civilized sedentary nations, stole their traditions and habits, and converted their cultural and architectural edifices into Turkic or Muslim, Hagya Sophia being the most vivid example. This is a typical nomadic, barbarian behavior. That’s why your state is being openly or implicitly despised and you need to understand that their hostility has solid historical grounds. In order for your nation to start getting civilized the first thing you must do, in the view of many nations, is to admit the crimes of your predecessors. As long as you deny the truth and evade justice, the hostility towards your nation will persevere.

  46. Turkey was at war in World War One.  Turkey had enemies to cope with then… and suffered the losses from those enemies.  When Turk leaderships claim that Armenians had killed the Turks they are exaggerating/lying. First,  Turk leaders UNarmed the Armenians.  If Armenians did not ‘turn in’ any arms they were abused.  Thus, Armenians would buy guns to give to the Turks!
    Thus the UNarmed Armenians were unable to kill the Turks.  The Turk leaders lie in their denials of committing the Turkish Genocides of the Armenian nation, too, Turk leaders lie when they accuse Armenians of killing Turkeys. Turkey had many enemies to fight in World War One! Imagine, how fine the Armenian homeland would have been today if the Turkeys had been made to withdraw and returned  to their own Asian homeland. Today the populations of the peaceful Christian Armenians would be numbering in the 50-90 milions of humanity… a people who have much to share and with which to join with the civilized nations of the world.

  47. Murat,

    Do you know that ignorance is the root of all evil?????  If you do then stop practicing evil and stop running away from the truth.  If you percieve the truth as danger, (which I can understand why you would), then by running from it you will only double the danger.

    The longer you carry that burden, the heavier it will become.  Get rid of everything that does NOT belong to you. (while you can).  Altough I read some very educated and interesting comments above, none of them can change you.  All answers are within you.  Take a deep dive inside you and try to find out who you are.    ONE BEAUTIFUL DAY YOU MIGHT FIND OUT THAT ONE OR MORE OF YOUR ANCESTORS WERE ARMENIANS.  BE READY FOR THAT!

  48. Let’s add that very few of today’s ‘Turks’ are actually Turkish in the central Asian sense of the word. They are an amalgam based on the original inhabitants of Anatolia….Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians…with only the slightest tinge of Turkishness. Heck, even the sultans all had mothers and grandmothers who were never Turkish…in order to elevate their bloodlines and status. The ‘Turk’ moniker is self-assumed, that’s about it.

  49. Gor   You said ” artificial state “. I think that you should consider if turkey is artificial one more time. Turks came to anatolia 1000 years ago. They are still there.So this can not be an argumant to discredit Turks. In your logic , America is artificial state as it was only discovered 500 yeras ago. You still have to credit the Turks for the difference which is 500 years. Some armenians are really funny. According to them, Turks should go back to central Asia as they came to ME and destroy the Armenians and other cultures. If we think that what a brilliant idea is this then we should advise the native americans(indians) to send  a petition to tye white house saying all people including Armenians apart from indians must leave the USA as the country isn’t their historic land. I am sure the american government and the relevant people will take it seriously and organise a massive immigration project towards their original countries. than you send a petition to the turkey’s government in the hope they take the same action.Congraculation on your new mission.

  50. “ONE BEAUTIFUL DAY YOU MIGHT FIND OUT THAT ONE OR MORE OF YOUR ANCESTORS WERE ARMENIANS.  BE READY FOR THAT!”

    This is so precious.  Hold on to your pants.  My ancestors were from Bitlis and they arrived there from Caucuses.  I know for a fact there is Kurdish, Lezgi, Azeri and Armenian in my blood.  What does it mean?  You think it makes me less of a Turk?  I doubt your racist mind can wrap itself around these facts.  Still busy with who conquered whom a thousand years ago?

    That is the difference between us.  That is the reality of Turkey and I am proud of it.

  51. First of all, Monastras, “Anatolia” that the Seljuk Turks breached into from the steppes of Mongolia and Altay mountains was for all of the history known as Asia Minor and its eastern north-eastern part as Armenian Plateau. Second, nomadic Seljuk Turks did not actually “come” to the region. They invaded the region that was for millennia inhabited by sedentary nations: Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, and Armenians. The fact that Turks are still there does not in any way diminish the historical truth that they’re there as a result of invasion, occupation of the lands of others, and mass physical extermination of indigenous nations. I don’t say this in order to discredit your nation. I say it in order to reiterate the known historical fact. Don’t mix this up with the discovery of the New World in the Americas and the arrival of the Europeans to the vastly uninhabited, undeveloped new lands. Yes, native Indians were subjected to cruelty and many died mostly of the lack of immunity towards new diseases that the Europeans brought with them. But Asia Minor was relatively densely inhabited before the invasion of the Seljuk Turks in the 11th and Mongols in the 13th century. The region has hosted many ancient nations who already developed high civilizations. Nomadic Seljuk Turks invaded the region, destructed all, and then subjugated these indigenous nations into the Ottoman Empire in the 15th century. If you think Armenians are funny, how funnier the Turks look denying this documented historical facts? And, no, we’re not suggesting that Turks go back to their lands of origin, but we rightfully demand that Turks recognize that they were new-comers into these lands (1000 years is nothing for the nations whose origin goes back in the BC era: Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, etc.) and that these indigenous nations should have been respected and not forcibly made millets and ultimately annihilated in the acts of genocide. Whatever the early Americans have done to Indians, they apologized to them and legally acknowledged their rights as equal citizens of the United States. And whatever early Americans have done to the aborigine Indians was wrongdoings of the colonizers, whereas what Turks have done to the Armenians was a deliberate act of race extermination perpetrated by their own Ottoman government. Can you appreciate the difference? Besides, what are these cheap, deplorable comparisons with other nations’ wrongdoings? Yes, not only Turks are guilty of genocide, Germans, Cambodians, Sudanese also are. But you admit and apologize for YOUR crimes. If you seek a precedent for this look into how Germans have apologized to the Jews or the Russian government for Stalin’s purges. Seeking stupid analogies in other cases only reinforces Armenians’ belief that little have you advanced from your Seljuk/Mongol ancestors towards being a civilized member of the community of nations. Re: artificiality of your state. It is artificial because, first, it originated not as a result of human evolution in a specific area, but as a result of a sheer military invasion. Second, it is artificial because the nation that now claims the area as “theirs” is a result of artificial amalgamation of Seljuk Turks and nomadic Mongols, not of sedentary peoples. Third, it is artificial because the state formation that these two groups were able to set was the Ottoman Empire that forcibly colonized many indigenous Christian nations. Fourth, it is artificial because the Turkish Republic of 1923 was founded on the lands of other nations that were by then all slaughtered, deported, or converted and their rich cultural heritage proclaimed as Seljuk or Muslim. And, fifth, it is artificial because the state doesn’t acknowledge that great segments of its population are not genuinely Turkish (what is Turkish, no one really knows…), that the remnants of more ancient and indigenous nations exist but are afraid of revealing their true identity. History shows that states based on lies, distortion, and oppression of ethnic and cultural minorities do not survive for long. If, in contrast to human experience on this issue, you believe otherwise, congratulations on your ignorance…

  52. Murat:   Nobody here needs to hold on to their pants: the fact that you have some Armenian blood is no surprise: it would be hard for a Turk not to. Having abducted  millions of Armenian girls, young women, and boys, having raped and having forcibly Islamized them, over a period of about 5 centuries the surprise would be if you didn’t have Armenian blood in you.     Nevertheless, having some Armenian blood will not prevent a Turk from hating everything Armenian. Sultan Hamid is reputed to have had an Armenian grandmother. One or more of the Young Turk triumvirate are reputed to have had Armenian blood in their ancestry. Hitler was reliably proven – thru genetic tests with his blood relatives  –  to have had Jewish blood in his ancestry: didn’t stop him from hating and mass-murdering Jews.     As to your, quote, ‘Azeri’ blood: there is no such thing. Maybe Tatar blood, or Persian Azari blood, but there is no such thing as ‘Azeri’ blood.     And as to racism:     Q: Who was it that ordered the destruction of a nothing-statue in the middle of nowhere because it had the word ‘Armenian+friendship’ it its description ? A: your Turk PM Erdogan.   Q: Who was it that sued and won because someone ‘insulted’ him by ‘alleging’ he has an Armenian mother ? A: your Turk President Gul.   Q: Which country produced and disseminated the racist Anti-Armenian, Armenophobic DVD “Sari Gelin” thru Turkish education system; so vicious was the tone that even many Turk parents sued to stop their children form seeing it ? A: Turkey.   Q: In which country an unarmed man is shot in the back of the head because he is a Turkish citizen, but unfortunately for him an Armenian, and the suspected killer is photographed next to a proudly  smiling, ranking Turk Police Officer at the police station ? A: Turkey.   Q: In which country a high school exists –  today –  proudly named after Talat, which would be equivalent to a high school being named after Adolf Hitler in today’s Germany ? A: Turkey.     Need I go on ?  

  53. Monastras, The only difference between the America with native Indians and Turkey with Armenians is that the USA’s government does Not reject what happened to Native Indians plus there are areas in US that are called INDIAN RESERVATIONS, which means in those areas Native Americans are still considered SUPERIORS.  By law, you and I can not open up businesses there unless we can prove we are Native Americans. And much more.  Do some research before you can get into comparing Americans and Turks.  Some Armenians are maybe funny because they have a sence of humor.  But you, by comparing Turks to Americans are the best humorologist on the face of this planet.  I invite you to HOLLYWOOD to try your luck.  You will be the best comedian of turkish or azeri origin.  Don’t worry we don’t trow eggs on comedians for bad humor.

  54. You know what? I’ll take it, Murat: I’ll hold on to my pants, but you Turks, as a nation, hold on to your inevitably disintegrating fictional state formation of Turkey. Which one would be trickier to hold on to, you think?

  55. “Still busy with who conquered whom a thousand years ago?” A thousand years maybe a lengthy time period for you, Murat, since you’re a Turk representing a “nation” that popped up on the world map merely a thousand years ago. Whereas for Armenians a thousand years is roughly one-fourth, or even one-fifth, of their overall period of existence on Earth. Capable of grasping the difference or for you time only starts when your ancestor Seljuk and Mongol nomads have invaded the lands on which you now live? If you’re desensitized to the extent that you mock us for remembering the Seljuk conquest that effectively destroyed our developed civilization and ultimately led to the deliberate annihilation of our nation under the Ottomans, it means that tomorrow, hypothetically speaking, if, say, the Russians will wipe out Turks from the face of the Earth, you’ll be proudly silent? Is this mentality typical to all Turks or you just happened to be one of the kind?

  56. Murat, I see why you are so disturbed with the idea of holding on to pants.  Correct me if I am wrong, as I understand in case tomorrow Russia conquers turkey and commits Genocide and renames the country with a new name, then you will turn around, D*** D*** your pants and (whatever happens next) in a few years claim that your ancestors came from Turkey but it doesn’t make you less of an Russian or whoever the counquerer may be.  YES? NO?  Choosing and being forced to choose are two different things. Have you ever heard of the slogan “WHAT GOES AROUND COMES AROUND”?  I bet you have and that is why your eyes are always wondering around thinking which direction will it come from and subsequently thinking if you should hold on to your pants or experiance it ONE MORE TIME.  IF YOU ARE ALWAYS ON THE SIDE OF THE STRONG, THEN YOU CERTAINLY HAVE LOST YOUR IDENTITY AND YOU ARE ON YOUR WAY TO LOOSE YOUR SOUL. 

  57. Hitler would have been proud to see his ideology well and alive among your ranks.  You know who a Turk is?  Whoever calls himself one.  That is what identity is.  It is not your DNA, your skull dimensions or color of your skin.  You have at least another century more to go to even absorb what I just said.

  58. The homogenization of Anatolia was essentially a racist, fascist scheme devised by Ataturk – Turkey’s very own Hitler….his idea was to just blend everyone into a bland soup where ethnic origins are crushed into dust so that ‘Turks’ can rise to the top and lord over everyone else. Oddly, he rewarded those closest to him – again, not really Turks – for their efforts to push his program. The ultranationalist Ergenekon crowd is part and parcel of his legacy and that of the Ittihadists.  The funny thing is, Ataturk (aka, Mustafa Kemal) was given the title Ataturk by an Armenian, even though Ataturk could not have been less Turkish, less Muslim and less honest. He was an opportunistic drunk of indetermined origin, yet his face is forced on the inhabitants of Turkey to this day, as if he was sacred.  Think of how clever his scheme was…he took away everyone’s identity – family names, religion, written language, clothing, etc. and replaced them with an artificial facade created by he, himself!  Nothing could have been more absurd….and there are still many parts of Turkey where his scheme was not successful, despite burning to the ground 3500 Kurdish villages and displacing millions of people to the cities.  Ataturk’s legacy has been brutal. Perhaps if Turks can put it aside, the way the Russian put aside communism, they can eventually distance themselves from his peculiar brand of racist evil, imported to Turkey from Salonika by some of the worst characters to ever exist anywhere.   

     

  59. From Oxford Dictionaries to Murat the Turk:  Identity is (1)the fact of being who or what a person is and (2)the characteristics determining who or what a person is, but not the fact of calling himself whoever: a Turk, a Mongol, or a Zulu. Got it or you need another century to grasp the concept? We can wait for this to eventually happen. We’ve been on the Earth since time immemorial and can wait a bit longer… And since the world, and especially the nations whom the Turks have invaded, subjugated, and ultimately physically exterminated, know too well who the Turk is and what characteristics determine who he is, you don’t need to give us this rubbish about being a Turk based solely on calling oneself as such. We know too well whose genes a Turk carries and won’t buy this oversimplified Turkish delirium: “A Turk is whoever calls himself one.” DUH, DUH, DUH… Our knowledge of how Turks have created a “nation” for themselves has nothing to do with Hitler’s racist ideology. Nothing hurts like the truth, doesn’t it, Murat? And one more thing re: Hitler. Might you know which exterminator-nation he had in mind when in 1939 he declared: “Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?”

  60. Russians, too, attempted to create a new identity: “Soviet people,” and they failed, as will any made-up nations, including the Turks. But at least Russians have preserved—to varying degrees—national-territorial formations within the Soviet Union: republics, autonomous republics, oblasts (provinces), etc. based on specific national characteristics of their respective inhabitants. Russians allowed each Soviet citizen’s nationality to be registered in his or her passport, allowed national schools, universities, and distinct languages to operate in the republics. Russians did not oppress non-Russian nationalities to the extent as to make them hide their true identity, as in Turkey. Russians did not call non-Russians Russians, as Turks do with regard to the Kurds (“Mountainous Turks” absurd). Only Turks have this pathological, explicitly racist tendency of suppressing the histories, cultures, and identities of non-Turkic peoples inhabiting their makeshift country. Why? Because deep within Turks know that the lands they occupy are not originally theirs…

  61. Turkish ‘powers that be’ are driven by insecurity that comes from knowing that those who Turks have tried to oppress will not stay down forever, but will rise up and defend their right to self-determination and to claim their true identity.  All their desperate acts of repression, suppression, denial, distortion of history, aggression, genocide, duplicitous diplomacy, and homogenization stem from this insecurity.    The truth is that the ultra-nationalist Turks want power in their own hands.  They fear the non-turkish and non-muslim elements whose roots have extended deeply into the soil of Asia Minor for thousands of years before the Turks arrived.  They can’t tolerate a pluralistic society that might embrace the truth of the Ottoman atrocities and cause the general masses to realize the stolen origin of their ‘rich culture’ and the evil that was done in the name of greed and racist pan-Turkism.  “Allah forbid”, the hidden Armenians come into the light and claim their heritage.

    When the Young Turk/CUP/Ittihadists were in charge, they tried to fool the Armenians into believing that we could all live together as equal citizens of the Ottoman empire, but they secretly incited anti-Christian massacres by released prisoners and by Kurdish gangs in order to justify their plans for “deportation” when the Christians defended themselves.  They didn’t want a pluralistic society then, and Turkey doesn’t want it now.  They want the minorities to simply disappear into the walls and die a slow death of attrition and assimilation as they pretend that the offsprings of invader Turks and indigenous people and displaced Balkan Turkish/Muslim refugees can constitute a distinct homogenous nationality that will bow down to the memory of the proto-Fuhrer, Ataturk.  No way!

    The Deep State in Turkey is all about control and domination and their goals and methods are covert by nature.  In the end it is all about money and the control of resources within an imagined pan-Turan republic, a goal that we Armenians thwart by our existence.   As long as Armenia and Artsakh exist and Armenians eat, breathe, sing, dance and worship as Armenians, we will force Turkey to confront its crime and prevent racism and greed to defeat truth and justice.  And our Christianity will stand for something more than a badge we wear on our chests declaring us as the first Christian nation.

  62. Murat:   Before you invoke Hitler in reference to us Armenians, please read the following:   http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-racism-an-unpleasant-story-2010-07-13 (the link should work OK: I just checked it. If it doesn’t, I’ll paste the article next post)   After you have read the article Murat, please do come back and either apologize to every Armenian poster here, or explain what your National ‘Father’ Mustafa Kemal was doing measuring skulls, what did he mean when he noted ….[ “the tall, white, thin-nosed, proper-lipped, often blue-eyed Alpin race,” ]     re:  You have at least another century more to go to even absorb what I just said.” Don’t know about my fellow Armenian posters, but I am deeply touched by your confidence in our intellectual ability: only 1 century ? that’s nothing: we’ll get there in a jiffy.  

  63. :) Murat, Let me interpret whote you wrote:  Ready???  #1. “Hitler would have been proud to see his ideology well and alive among your ranks.”    It was not Hitler’s ideology, he simly borrowed it from you and your ranks.  That’s why before ordering the murder of Polish Jews (including women and children), in his speech he said “who after all remembers the massacre of Armenians?”  #2.    “You know who a Turk is?  Whoever calls himself one.”  “It is not your DNA, your skull dimensions or color of your skin.”  You are again like Monastras above are confusing Turks with Americans.   And somehow  I am starting to detect a pattern that you turks are becoming a clear danger for America.  #3.   “You have at least another century more to go to even absorb what I just said.”  With your attitude towards comparing yourself to Americans it is obvious that you Turks have laid your eyes by now on the Americans and American wealth, (NOT TO MENTION HOW YOU POPULATE EUROPE AT ALRMING RATES ) which is why you certainly don’t have another century to go.  You know what cancer is???  When the cells of a particullar organ forget who they are, then they start attacking the same organ that they live in, subsequently destroying both demselves and the organ.  You are neither in the best interests of USA, nor EU, nor Russia, and by now all those governments know about it.  And what are they planning, I don’t know, but soon we will find out.  So your best ticket out of it is to recognize the Armenian Genocide before it is too late.  I don’t blame you for NOT understanding it because your mind is always and only busy with distroying the truth.  Because when the truth surfaces you turks will colapse like a house of cards.   

  64. Avery, re: the article. Thanks. Not to mention that architect Mimar Sinan is believed to have been born an Armenian in a small town of Aghurnas (present-day Mimarsinanköy) near Kayseri. He was influential in preserving the dome of the Christian Byzantine cathedral of Hagya Sophia from collapsing. I bet Murat the Turk would l-o-o-ve to hear this…

  65. Monsastras, by your method of computing, Turks were in the Armenian lands 1,000 years ago
    howsomever, Armenia, Armenians were on these lands earlier… over 3,000 years before the barbaric  hordes from the Asian mountains came to rape the Caucasus.   Turks chose to steal the Armenian advanced and ancient lands, properties, culture and more – eliminated the Armenians – stole their lands and more – all ready made,- (for turkeys had not any lands, agriculture – or even a history of their own). Until today, so many of the foods which a Turk cites as ‘turkish’ – all are Armenian.  Nothing is what a Turk presents is as of their own –  all stolen from Armenian culture. For these hordes came with nothing, except that at which they excell, even today in the 21st century, still – Genocides!

  66. you are welcome Gor:

    credit for that link goes to poster Alex in the thread a while back that discussed “Gul is Armenian” lawsuit @ ArmenianWeekly. I didn’t know about the article before Alex linked it in his post.

  67. It is clear you do not get it, possibly incapable of it too.

    Your identity is so tightly wrapped around ethnicity, race, religion, dna, and tragic events, that it is hard to imagine it to be otherwise.  It is even more clear that Hitler idelogy analogy was very apt.

    Ironically someone brought up the example of USA.  Which is very appropriate in this regard.  So what is the American identity?  Following your logic and definition, there should not be a nation of Americans and no such identity.

    In fact, similarities beteen Turkey and USA is a lot more than people realize.  Modern Turkey is after all a collection of various mostly Muslim nations and groups converging on Asia Minor, having been ethncially cleansed and forced out of Europe, Asia and Middle East for two centuries, those masses who are not Arab or Persian that is.  That is the melting pot of Turkey. Circassians, Albanians, Pomaks, Bosnians, Georgians, Tatars, Azeris, Turkmen, Kazak, Lezgi, Chehcen, Abaza, Laz, Arabs, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Jews, etc. 

    Genius of Ataturk was to mold a nation out of this that was not based on religion, not race nor ethnicity.  It is a shame this is not recognized here by anyone.  A nation had to be created and defined as that was the only successful model in the modern world.  In fact, Turks were rather late in this effort.  Sure there was a lot of trials and experimentation and some failures and much necessary myth-making. Show me one nation that does not have its founding myth. In the end he found the essence of Turkish identity: a shared fate, experience, aspirations, flag and a country.  Ataturk for most is appropriately a symbol of the Republic, just like a flag. 

    Certainly there are extremists, nationalists who think Ataturk worshipping is patriotic, and people with hate in their hearts among the 75M Turkish citizens, but there is still a majority of common sense people, different voices, unlike on these pages.

    It is truly sad and beyond pathertic that after 100 years, some here still consider Turkey an “experiemnt” doomed to fail.  Just think of the actual experiments that actually failed all throughout Europe, Asia and Middle East within that time period with such disasterous results.

    Of course Sinan was of Armenian origin, many Ottoman leaders and statesmen and diplomats were of Greek, Serb or Armenian stock.  That says a lot about the kind of state it was, and why it endured so long.

    Most nationalist Turk I ever met was an Armenian. 

    Recently they cleaned up and organized the famous 57th regiment cemetery in Gallipoli.  This is the regiment Mustafa Kemal ordered to die and they all did.  Among the 300 or so tombs, 4 were of non-Muslim soldiers and officers. 

    That is the difference between a tribe and nation.  In one there is no question of identity, it is clear cut, in another, one can legitimately pose the question, not because there is a lack of identity but it is not a simple single word.  I am rather proud of that.

  68. This is all very informative, but what does it have to do with Turkey denying genocide and making reparations?

  69. Yes, Murat….for centuries, in fact, almost a millenium, the people who actually did all the real work for the Seljuks and Ottomans were the native Armenians and Greeks.  These people worked diligently on behalf of their conquerors and developed a symbiosis that allowed them to succeed. They made important intellectual contributions that were appreciated by the sultans and others who ran the state, because they did not have the same skill sets. Yes, they could conquer and run an army or the machine of government, but they could not feed the empire, not house the empire, nor educate the empire. For those and many other capabilities, the minorities were highly valued. However, for reasons some of us know and others refuse to acknowledge, this all changed when the Ittihadists came to power.  During the lowest point of the empire, a group of Salonikan crazies hijacked an entire empire and conspired to steal the work of centuries for themselves and their cronies.  Yes, Turkey is doing quite well today, but this is all very recent….for many years, it was a scary, pathetic place. Would you have wanted to be a Greek, Armenian or Jew in Istanbul in the 1940s or in 1955?  I think not.  What about being an Alavi in 1938 ?  You may laud Turkey today as it has overcome quite a long horror show, but the loss of the minorities hurt Turkey proufoundly and on many levels. And, it is not done. You have 15 million Kurds to contend with at this point.  As for Turkey being like America, I think you’re right on some level…they were both built on the genocide and ethnic cleansing of the native peoples. Very charming resemblance. 

  70. Murat your post is quite interesting and informative, but what does it have to do with Turkish denial of the genocide and the need for this crime to be brought to justice? Also, what you describe is merely the ‘ideal’ version that Turks would like the world to see them as, but we know that the reality of life for minorities in Turkey is not this way.  Being forced to deny your heritage in order to fit in is not freedom and democracy.  If calling yourself a Turk means you must deny your ancestry or risk being marginalized, than this is repressive. Are you proud of that?

  71. Perhaps you, Murat, are incapable of getting it.
     
     
    Here is your post from May 2:
    “Hitler would have been proud to see his ideology well and alive among your ranks.  You know who a Turk is?  Whoever calls himself one.  That is what identity is.  It is not your DNA, your skull dimensions or color of your skin.  You have at least another century more to go to even absorb what I just said.”
     
     
    I provide a reference to a Turkish-sourced article clearly showing that your national hero Mustafa Kemal was as depraved and delusional as Hitler and his Nazi cohorts. Mustafa Kemal’s ideology was no different than Nazis’. Yet you seem to admire him as much as your brainwashed countrymen, e.g. your comment “Genius of Ataturk ….” Clearly, by inference, it is you who Hitler would have been proud of. Yet you persist in your primitive attempts of transference.
     
     
    re: Genius of Ataturk was to mold a nation out of this that was not based on religion, not race nor ethnicity.  It is a shame this is not recognized here by anyone. “
    Surely you jest – please comment on the following citation from Freedemocracy’s Weblog:
     
     
    [Mustafa Kemal (Ataturk) was formerly himself a member of the governing body of Committee of Union and Progress (CUP), the political organization of murderous Young Turks. Once in power, Ataturk and the Kemalists not only continued the Armenian Genocide, but directed their tested policies of extermination of an entire people against Greeks and other ethnic minorities. In Eastern Armenia alone, the Kemalists destroyed 200,000 Armenians (1920-1921), in Smyrna – 100,000 Greeks and Armenians (September 1922), in the Black Sea regions – about 300,000 Pontian Greeks (1919-1923). They also continued the Genocide against the Assyrians, of whom about 500,000 were annihilated by the Turkish forces from 1915 to 1923. Deportations, mass exterminations, political and cultural repressions against the Kurds, the second largest ethnic group in modern Turkey, began immediately after the Armenian Genocide and continue to this day. All Kurdish attempts to protect their basic national and human rights were brutally suppressed in 1925, 1927, and 1937. In 1980s and 1990s, more than a million Kurds were deported to large cities (during these deportations, according to various estimates, two to three thousand Kurdish villages were destroyed).]
     
     
    And I don’t know what country you currently live in (I live in USA), but if you think there is or see any similarity between the evolving nationality ‘American’ and Turks,  then you are incapable of  ‘getting it’ even less than I expected.
     

  72. Bearing in mind that we’re exchanging views with a Turk, I’m compelled to repeat the definition of identity. Identity is the fact of being who or what a person is and the characteristics determining who or what a person is. Therefore, what Murat the Turk accuses Armenians of being “tightly wrapped around ethnicity, race, religion, DNA, and tragic events” is for the reasonable people those very characteristics determining who or what a person (or a nation) is. But, again, as they say, if you don’t get it, you don’t get it…
     
    Let’s move to another absurd. “Modern Turkey,” we are told, “is a collection of various mostly Muslim nations and groups converging on Asia Minor, having been ethnically cleansed and forced out of Europe, Asia and Middle East for two centuries, those masses who are not Arab or Persian that is.” How interesting it is to observe the “lucidity” of a Turkish mind when the bearer of it—given his narrow-mindedness and ethnic self-centeredness—is capable of only grasping events that took place when his nation popped up in a given event or when his nation had experienced atrocities. Note that nowhere in the passage above was he capable of analyzing as to what a Turk was doing in Europe, Asia and the Middle East, how a Turk had appeared in Europe, Asia and Middle East, and why a Turk was forced out of there. That is, for him time starts when Turks appear in a given historical instance or on a given geographic place. Is he capable to grasp that nomadic Seljuk and Mongol tribes—the amalgamation of which led to the formation of the nation of Turk—whose origins are in the steppes of Mongolia, Central Asia, and the Altay mountains, have never before the 11th century been anywhere close to Europe, Asia and the Middle East? Instead, he emphasizes only the fact that Turks have been ethnically cleansed and forced out of Europe, Asia and the Middle East, conveniently forgetting that Turks were the ones who invaded and colonized Europe, Asia and the Middle East in the first place. Therefore, ethnic cleansing and forcing Turkish invaders and colonizers out of Europe, Asia and the Middle East was for the indigenous nations inhabiting those regions a just cause, a cause of independence wars, liberation movements, throwing off the shackles of loathed Ottoman Turkish regime.
     
    Next magnum opus: “That is the melting pot of Turkey: Circassians, Albanians, Pomaks, Bosnians, Georgians, Tatars, Azeris, Turkmen, Kazak, Lezgi, Chehcen, Abaza, Laz, Arabs, Greeks, Armenians, Kurds, Jews, etc.” The impression is given as if, like the American melting pot, those distinct ethnos have voluntarily formed the nation of Turkey. In reality, the Turkish melting pot is the result of an explicit projection of invading force by the nomadic Seljuks in the 11th and the Mongols in the 13th centuries and their occupation of sedentary, indigenous peoples of Asia Minor, the Balkans, and the Middle East. Those peoples did not voluntarily sail to the “piece of paradise” called the Ottoman Empire, as did European pilgrims to the New World, but were ruthlessly incorporated in to the Turkish empire and were given the humiliating and oppressive status of millet. The owners of the ancient lands that Turks have occupied were given the millet status and then barbarously murdered en masse, their residues converted to Islam or sold to harems. This is what Murat the Turk proudly calls “the melting pot of Turkey.”
     
    Then we’re given a shame for not recognizing the “genius” of Mustafa Kemal who “molded a nation out of this that was not based on religion, not race or ethnicity.” Don’t you understand? We should recognize the efforts of a drunkard with dubious affiliation, sexual orientation, and ethnicity, who first effectively finished the bloody business of his Ittihadist predecessors by emptying the remaining pockets of Armenians and other non-Turks in the new Republic (in Smyrna, for example), and then embarked upon a “grandiose” project of molding a new nation by effectively Turkifying all the remnants of the distinct, indigenous, nobler, and more civilized peoples once inhabiting those lands. Wiping out their racial, ethnic, religious, cultural characteristics; calling a distinct ancient Christian Armenian a “Turk”; calling a distinct ancient Christian Greek a “Turk”; calling a distinct ancient Kurd a “mountainous Turk”. This fascistic Turkification is to some “molding of a nation”. Moreover, it should be recognized, we’re being ashamed. Molding of a nation out of more ancient, nobler, and more civilized nations is indicative of the fact that the newly-cooked “nation” of Turks never had an identity, never excelled in making its own cultural, civilizational achievements. How easier it should have been to “mold a nation” when the Byzantine Greek, Assyrian, Balkan, Arab, and Armenian civilizational edifices were readily available to the newly-cooked Turks? How easier it should have been not to build a mosque but transform a Christian church into it? Or re-settle Muslim Turks in the homes owned for centuries by Armenians effectively massacred and deported prior to the re-settlement? Or steal the music, the cuisine, and architectural marvels of the Greeks, Assyrians, or Armenians? Re-write their history? Desecrate their cemeteries, their ancient capitals, their churches, cathedrals, monasteries, schools, and seminaries? We are led to believe that all this was necessary because a genius Turk was molding a nation… The hell with all other nations that existed before Turks for millennia and were annihilated by them; the most important thing, shamelessly not recognized by us, Armenians, was that Ataturk was molding a nation out of our survivors, our ancient and rich cultural and Christian heritage. In the end, we are told, “he founded the essence of Turkish identity: a shared fate, experience, aspirations, flag and a country.” A fascistic project of wiping out ancient civilizations and all-Turkification is being portrayed to us as the “essence of Turkish identity.” If we extrapolate this into the classic definition of identity above as the fact of being who or what a person is and the characteristics determining who or what a person is, the “Turkish identity” is nothing else than the theft of ethnic, religious, cultural, and civilizational identities of other nations. This is what Murat the Turk is proud of…

  73. Karekin:   While it is true that native Indians suffered in the hands of European colonizers, they were never citizens of a European empire near-annihilated by their own government. This is the huge difference between the atrocities that happened during the discovery and colonization of the New World and the Turkish government’s deliberate and systematic extermination of its own Armenian citizens as an ethnic and religious group. Turks—other than Murat who as I come to see is blinded by Kemalist ultranationalism and Armenophobic racism—need to understand the difference and it is us who need to make it clear for them.

  74. Karekin,
     
    One other inaccuracy in your comment, if I may. You say: “However, […] this [Ottoman valuing of minorities as laborers] all changed when the Ittihadists came to power.” The oppression and the harsh treatment of Armenians as Millet was going on throughout the Ottoman centuries. However, its first brutal outbreak happened not when the Ittihadists came to power but before, during the reign of the Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid. The genocide perpetrated by the Ittihadists was the culmination of the centuries-long Ottoman oppression of the Armenians, and not a single event of a new regime, although unmatched in scope and barbarism.

  75. “Genius of Ataturk”…  Isn’t he the Salonika outlaw who, as a revolutionary fighting the legitimate government of the Sultan, characterized the genocidal extermination of Armenians as “a shameful act” but once in power continued his Salonika CUP brothers’ exterminatory acts against Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Alawis, and Kurds?  “Genius of Ataturk”…

  76. Well, at least in the US, native American place names are preserved in many places..notably the names of states (Massachusetts, Connecticut, etc), rivers, regions, etc.  There are laws that protect native American burial places. There are commemorative statues all over the place and native Americans even feature on our currency. While yes, they were ethnically cleansed in a brutal way typical of conquest, they have not been forgotten. None of this exists in Turkey nor is there any positive sponsorship of the minority contribution over the centuries by the government. The policies begun by the CUP, to treat the native, indigenous groups of the country as (suspicious) foreigners, continues to this day and perpetuates the concept that you must blend in as a Turk to be accepted by the society. National citizenship is a political thing, and as we all know, can change depending on where you are born or which government is running the show. The 2 million Turks and Kurds in Germany have learned this quite well, as of late…and needless to say, they don’t like being treated poorly by Germans, even if they were born in Germany, and they complain about it. It’s worse for Armenians in Turkey, whose roots go back many millenia, and pre-date any government or conqueror.

  77. Why are you all even bothering to argue with Murat. You can’t really argue with people who are so rooted in their ignorance. He is a denialist and he will try and justify a genocide and that just shows you that he has a feeble mind.

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