After years of being what I called a die-hard Armenian, this year I went soft. Maybe it had to do with the pessimism I have towards the world in general; perhaps it finally crept into my sentiments of my Armenian heritage. Whatever the cause, I came down from the ladder of resolute nationalism, while my 18-year-old brother climbed up and has been going higher every passing day.
I see in him who I used to be: dedicated to the struggle of justice for the Armenian Genocide, supporting any anti-government protestor in the streets of Yerevan, and a convinced believer in the unique greatness of these unique Armenians. It is not that I have lost my commitments to these ideals. I have only changed my perceptions of them, and with the changed perceptions, I have re-evaluated my approach to them.
He, along with the rest of my family and close friends, believe me to have fallen away from my Armenian roots, due to my “supposed” constant critique of Armenians, gloomy assessments of Armenia (though I correct that it’s a realistic assessment), and my unorthodox presentation of Armenian culture. Thus to them, my behavior has been highlighting the norms that are uncommon—or, to an extent unwanted—in our traditional communities. I use the word “traditional” in the sense of what socio-political ideas are dominant.
This past summer, while in Armenia, I decided to wash my hands clean of the country and return in 10 years. The rising poverty, evident unemployment, and degradation of justice had made me heavily disillusioned.
I saw how Armenia has been reduced to a simple breeze on the international arena, where Russia pulls strings comfortably from Moscow or the EU threatens our political reforms from Brussels. It is then you realize that Armenia—as a state, not a country—is a failure that hasn’t produced a single worthy contribution to the world; it has only given emigration. The oligarchs have hijacked the government for their personal benefit, and the opposition is so pathetically divided and scattered that the likes of Shant Harutyunyan and his Nazi-loving hooligans have taken over the streets of Yerevan.
Thus, I turned my back on Armenia. Maybe I was too weak in the face of disappointments. Maybe my expectations had been too high. Maybe the traditional ideas fed into me by the community no longer had their effect. I was stuck between a directionless-country in a down spiral and a lethargic, delusional diaspora on an endless wander. I woke up to find us a lost nation.
Then I traveled to Western Europe…
It was in the beautiful hills of the Basque country that I, lost in translation, understood from a stranger that the theory of their supposed Armenian roots is quite known in the region. We said goodbye with a simple exchange: “Yo Armenos, tu Basque.”
It was during a stroll in Vienna that I accidentally found an Armenian couple chatting about the price of jewelry. My self-imposed introduction triggered only enthusiasm, and we departed after comically agreeing that “there are a lot of Turks in this city.”
It was a random left turn that brought me in front of the Armenian embassy in Madrid, “the closest embassy to the Royal Palace,” as the ambassador stressed when he invited me in for a chat. I left with this comfortable feeling that for once, the Republic of Armenia had lived up to its responsibility to the Armenian people, and not only to the citizens. “Can a French person knock on the French embassy’s door and sit down with the ambassador,” I later asked myself. I think we all know the answer.
It was hearing two men arguing in the dark-lit streets of Berlin that led me to follow them for a good 15 minutes to understand what language they were speaking, knowing that although it sounded like a functional mix between Turkish and Russian, it was undoubtedly Caucasian. And when one of the men sighed, “Vosh insh, vosh insh ara,” I knew I had just witnessed Hamshen Armenians from Abkhazia debating in front of the Reichstag.
And finally, it was the chanting of Gregorian music that reminded me of the goosebump-producing effect that Komitas and Armenian folk music have on me. I sat in that church and listened to the serene melodies, interpreting them in my mind as the seducing whispers of our beautiful mountains.
I found our lost nation, and I joined them in the loss. Although I still hold my “pessimistic and provocative” views on our people, and persist in my defiance of the traditional ideals, I have found pleasure in these disagreements and see it as the only way forward to a more comprehensive understanding of where we as a nation are heading.
Apo Sahagian is a Jerusalemite-Armenian musician and writer. He holds a bachelor’s degree in government, diplomacy, and strategy, and is currently involved with NGOs that work for peace between Palestinians and Israelis.
Apo Sahagian
Latest posts by Apo Sahagian (see all)
- Our Useless Diaspora, Our Future Armenia - February 3, 2021
- The Myth of the “Western Armenian” - January 2, 2019
- Did We Dream a Bit too Much? - June 23, 2015
Akh, yeghpaïr… You fed me with strange, uncommon hope. Abriss.
Great article! I loved the image of the author trailing the two men in Berlin to try and discern their language. I think that Armenia needs more of this kind of tough love.
So, Apo, you have also found that the Armenian spirit is bigger than a mere piece of land that a people once used to inhabit and has transcended physical space. It has attained a life beyond the skies and mountains which, though beautiful and beckoning, cannot constrain or sadly retain, that spirit.
The soul of your people is now a true soul. Beyond national boundaries, natural boundaries or even cultural boundaries. It is now in the eyes of your people – those beautiful windows to that soul. And in the eyes of my children as well.
Achker’t Louys!
Dear Apo, good or bad the Armenia is ours, you cannot turn your back on Armenia. We have to change, we have to help our people to understand what the real VOTE is. If you really did turn your back – DON’T come back, nobody is waiting for you.
Asya
This is what is wrong with a lot of so called hayastantsis. 3 million citizen with 3 million paths, word unity is not in the dictionary and you would tell someone not to come back to Armenia? You must feel like it’s your backyard. Serzhik sold Armenia to Gasprom wake up Armenia. Either you sell to EU or Russia. Never ever will Armenia truly attain freedom as it should be.
Asya Jan,
In the article, I do imply that I do not have my back to Armenia. I never will. However, I do find it interesting when people (ie you) mistake it for otherwise and charge at me. I find that, in an unusual way, encouraging since we need passionate Armenians of all stripes to charge ahead for the betterment of our nation. Sirov.
So, Apo, you have also found that the Armenian spirit is bigger than a mere piece of land that a people once used to inhabit and has transcended physical space. It has attained a life beyond the skies and mountains which, though beautiful and beckoning, cannot constrain or sadly retain, that spirit.
The soul of your people is now a true soul. Beyond national boundaries, natural boundaries or even cultural boundaries. It is now in the eyes of your people – those beautiful windows to that soul.
And in the eyes of my children as well.
Achker’t Louys!
Apo Jan, thank you for the beautiful piece. There is nothing nobler than being an Armenian. The Armenians can use their intellect and wisdom for betterment of Armenia or for themselves. They can use it for good or evil, but at the end of the day, they have the capability to influence their lot. Almost anything an Armenian puts his/her mind to succeeds. Even though this may be, being the best oligarch. Unfortunately majority of the Armenians do not realize what they have and how they can use it. Centuries of constantly being told that they are a second class people has taken its toll. The high standards that still could be found in many of us have declined. The interest in benefiting the Armenians and our nation in general has given way to self-serving goals. But I am optimistic about the new generation and what they can do. I have high hopes for the Armenia and Armenia’s future thanks to our new generation who is not afraid to ask for what is rightfully theirs. Your article proves my point that there is still hope.
Agree fully. I was going to comment on this great sincere article, but after I read your comment all I can do is to admit you expressed it so much better.
We all go through this. The common thread in all our experiences is this – Armenia is inside us, and we cannot run away from ourselves. We fall, and we get up, and we get up again. To become frustrated is part of the solution. The deSovietization of the country will take some time, not decades, perhaps a century, but you cannot lose hope and faith in the people of the country and their will to live and build futures for their children. If you walk away, they will continue, but you will be missing a piece of yourself.
Whether you accept it or not, the future of Armenia depends on its reconciliation with Turkey. Or, Armenia will vanish even before anybody realizes.
Dear Ahmet,
Armenia will never be vanished, and our future does not depend on reconciliation with Turkey. It is time for Turkey to recognize the history and accept the Genocide against the Armenians. Remember we were here, we are still here and will always be here and will never vanish as you were hoping.
Ahmet Bey Efendi@ “Armenia depends on reconciling w/ Turkey. Or Armenia will vanish before it realizes.” People like you are the reason why we cannot get along with our neighbors. You must be a Tayyip supporter I’d bet. This will fuel more ammunition for Turkophobia, especially with the Armenian community.
To all Armenian users@
Don’t mind Ahmet’s stupid comments. We all have many uneducated fanatics on both ends. I am of Turkish origin and I think we need to booster our civil society/democracy movements to help start the healing process between our peoples. Armenia is struggling with Oligarchs and Turkey has the Megalomaniac Muslim Brotherhood member Recep Tayyip Wahhabi-dogan.
I also believe that by 2015, we should set up our border via the Kars treaty and there should be a small chunk of territory ceded to Armenia. I personally believe that doing such things will help strengthen the Armenian and Turkish democracy movements. We have to live as neighbors and work together for a better future for our peoples, period.
Whether you like it or now, the future of turGAY depends on making reparations to Armenia. There is no harm in Armenia harboring animosity towards a bastardized group of people who didn’t even develop a written language on their own, but relied on Armenian intellectuals to develop it for them. I really can’t see the purpose of your stupid response, because as long as turkey gets out of line, the whole world will step in as they did with hitler.
Okay, unless I am wrong and this essay is not as transparent as it seems to be, the author is pretty much saying that he cannot be in love with the country when it is in trouble. There is an old saying: “a friend in need is a friend indeed”. As for Mr. Sahagian, judged by his writing, he is deeply ashamed of Armenia (I was about to say “his country” but Armenia is definitely not his country).
I did turn my back to Armenia a while ago, after hearing all these non sense oligarch ‘s movements plus our dear vehapars poor involvements in different business sectors, I GOT VERY COLD, I am sorry but like me I hear a lot of people feel the same way !
I have a friend very pessimist about Armenia. All the articles he used to write were about what is wrong over there.
I don’t share his opinion. I know the history of Armenia, it has always overcom his fate. It is because the character of the Armenian people, they are very courageous.
I applaud you for your candor and giving a voice to those of us in the diasporan community who have been disillusioned by Armenia’s seeming inability to get out of her own way. Instead of blindly throwing money at a multitude of well meaning charities, perhaps this article can be the first step to a truly meaningful discourse of how to realistically guide Armenia to becoming a strong, independent nation.
Apo, it is not far the day when our nation will rise again against all injustice. I follow up the news every day and it gives me hope that our new generation will turn the wheel of fortune for oour nation and it is coming…
Please read the, “COMMENTS”‘
Is your back still turned ?????????????
Ahmet, you give too much credit to Turkey. Ottoman empire is dead and Turkey is nothing but a puppet of Western powers. The only thing that makes Turkey important to the Western Powers is Russia’s existence. Armenia has survived for hundreds of years under Turkey and other powers. Under Turkey it had no future and now it has a future. Your statement is nothing but an attempt to weaken Armenia’s position with Turkey. Ottoman Empire is dead and Turkish citizens are waking up from the great brainwash. They are not all Turks. The truth is that they are Greek, Kurd, Armenian, Assyrian, Serbs, Hungarians and so forth.
Apo, Thanks for your article. There isn’t an Armenian on the planet that hasn’t already gone through your emotional roller coaster or at least they will sooner or later. It’s innate.
As for “Ahmet”, your people tried to eradicate us once and failed. There is no second chance as we are scattered the world over. We’re like the hydra, we grew new heads all over the globe and unlike you Turks we assimilated, we’re are loved wherever we settled and contribute to our respective societies. You had one chance and you failed. Those towns and villages where Armenians once lived and thrived haven’t evolved since your attempt to destroy us and they are still a century behind. Modern Turkey, no-one still likes you. The Arabs hate you, the Iranians hate you, the Kurds hate you and Europe not only despises you but she looks down on you as the lesser breed that you are. LOL. There is karma. You made your bed and now you can live in it all alone.
As for Armenia she will go through her growing pains but it’s the only country in Europe that doesn’t have Turks, and blessed for it. That alone will be of great value in another 50 years as a place to live.
For me personally, I thank you because my children live in a modern and more civilized world and are not subject to your whims of jealousy and rage. In a world of museums, art, culture and decency. Where our women don’t have to cover themselves and hide from your animal instincts. God bless our children and keep them from harm.
“As for Armenia she will go through her growing pains but it’s the only country in Europe that doesn’t have Turks, and blessed for it”
.
We’re using the term “in Europe” slightly liberally here, no?
Other than the so called almighty armenian spirit, which is no good for starving armenians in armenia, give me one reason why armenia should remain? You call Turkey a puppet? Turkey said NO to USA in 2003. Let me see what happens to armenia even it hints a NO to Russia. 2.9 million poor armenians, mostly confined in yerevan, would freeze to death. Talk about puppet. What a joke…By the way I could not see armenia in this list: http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2011/jan/07/gdp-projections-china-us-uk-brazil
Ahmet, put it this way, we’re more European than you are? We’re Christians and if we had a better economy we’d be a shoe-in. You guys are never going to be European!!! LOLOLOL
CTJ, I can tell you live in USA because you have no idea how things work on the other side of the world, in the Caucasus. Even if you had the greatest economy in the world, Russia would not let you move into EU. You don’t see what happened to Georgia? Ukraine? Armenia is doomed to remain what it is now. You think that armenia is european all you want but your geography dictates that it is semi middle eastern semi caucasian. Besides, who gives a crap about EU anymore? It is a damn sinking ship. College professors from Greece are coming to Turkey to find job. It is a matter of time before EU falls apart.
Ahmet, I actually live in Europe. I’m currently visiting friends in the US. I have been to Armenia many times. I have no problem with our relationship with Russia. The Russians stand behind their allies unlike the Americans who jettison their allies when it suits them. Your turn will come and we’ll see that smile wiped of your face. For as long as the Russians are our friends you and your Azeri brothers can’t touch us. Clearly that bothers you.
As for Europe, especially the French, they have your number. The Germans just adore you. The Italians mock you. The Brits loathe you.
Actually, once again that little Armenia that you like to diss enjoys a good relationship with Europe, Russia and the USA simultaneously.
PS: The love for Turks goes back many moons:
Bishop Fabri of Vienna (1536–41) claimed that: “There are no crueler and more audacious villains under the heavens than the Turks who spare no age or sex and mercilessly cut down young and old alike and pluck unripe fruit from the wombs of mothers”.
Voltaire and other European writers criticized the Turks as tyrants who destroyed Europe’s heritage.“…tyrants of the women and enemies of arts…” —Voltaire (1694-1778)
“They [the Turks] were, upon the whole, from the black day when they first entered Europe, the one great anti-human specimen of humanity. Wherever they went, a broad line of blood marked the track behind them, and, as far as their dominion reached, civilization disappeared from view. They represented everywhere government by force, as opposed to government by law.” (nothing has changed) — William Gladstone, 1876
“When I consider history, I find that there has been no nation that has practiced more blasphemy of God, brutally, shameful fornication, and every kind of wild and chaotic living than the Turks.” – Philipp Melanchthon
“…and lied like a Turk when he said it.” — Mark Twain, 1869
************************
Ahmet, the sad part is I don’t hate you. You hate us and that’s why I pity you, because you and your ilk are ignorant barbarians. Merry Christmas!
There are two merits that glorify a person. For a man, to be courageous, and for a woman, to be virtuous. Besides these two, there is another merit that glorifies both man and woman. So much loving the homeland to be ready to sacrifice his life if needed. Turks are such courageous and virtuous people. That is why you can kill a Turk but you can never defeat them.
Napoleon Bonaparte
The greatest ornament of a Turkish woman is precisely being Turkish itself. They do not adorn themselves by using diamonds or emeralds; they honor diamonds and emeralds by putting them on. Because each Turkish woman is an alive priceless jewelry herself.
Lady Mary Wortley Montagu
Turks are heroes. They never hurt their friends. This honorable nation will not leave a hand that reaches to the, will not renege on their promises, and will not let their friends alone at the times of hardship. Whoever becomes friends with this amazing nation will have on his side a priceless power to manage through any hardship.
Comenius (Check Scholar)
Turks not only have a boundless bravery but also a dazzling level of intelligence. With such intelligence thay they have become victorious, build civilizations, and accomplish the highest achievements of mankind. Without such intelligence they would not be able to rule half the Europe for centuries.
Carnayev (Russian Commander)
There are two unknowns in the World. The Poles and the Turks! Albert Sorel
The hand of a Turk who uses a sword with utmost skill is also skillful to heal the wounds of those whom he has defeated.
Lord Byron
You can never find a soldier in any other nation like the Turks who smile to death. All they need to succeed is a good commander.
Mulman
You can ask any army in the World and they will admit how hard to plan against Turksih soldiers. Turks are for two thousand years professional soldiers. Every Turk’s profession is to become a soldier.
Donaldson
Whoever wants taste the pleasure of a war should war against the Turks.
Towsend (British Commander)
Among all nations it is only Turks that is the most honorable and with whom one shall not hesitate building ties of friendship. Just go to a Turkish village and you will learn what it means hospitality.
William Martin
Turkish soldiers are very brave. They love their homeland and they do not hesitate to give their lives for it if necessary.
Albert Einstein
We failed at Dardanelles. How could we succeed? Turks were fighting like furious, angry and courageous lions whose homes have been transgressed. I have never seen a nation like Turks.
Sir Julien Corbet
Be friends of Turks, never their enemies.
Gianni de Michelis
When one examines the Turkish language, he discovers the big miracle that human intelligence has achieved.
Max Muller
Apo! are you sure you are a good Armenian???
Oh, it’s so easy to find fault than fight for reform.
We came to US because there was no free Armenian to go to then. Now we know better how to stand back and critic.
You don’t give up on reform no matter what the odds. We don’t give up on seeking justice for our fathers who walked the deserts hungry and alone. I don’t believe in what you say
{Apo Sahagian is a Jerusalemite-Armenian….and is currently involved with NGOs that work for peace between Palestinians and Israelis.}
That pretty much says it all, doesn’t ?
There is a poster in this thread: Anna Astvatsaturian Turcotte.
Mr. Sahagian, do you know who she is ?
Have you read her story ?
Do you know what happened in Sumgait, Kirovabad, Baku 20 years ago ?
You are currently involved in work for peace between Palestinians and Israelis: a very honorable pursuit. Nice of you to do so.
But do you know that AzeriTatarTurks have killed and wounded several hundred young Armenian men like you since the “ceasefire’ of 1994.
Do you know how many Armenian men and women were KIA in NKR to prevent the Genocide of 150,000 indigenous Armenian Artsakhtsi ?
Nice of you to work for peace between Palestinians and Israelis.
Meanwhile, thousands of young Armenian men like you are guarding the borders of NKR and RoA right now: in cold, in snow.
Every other month or so another Armenian family loses one of their sons to AzeriTatarTurk snipers: some “ceasefire”.
And you “Turned Your Back on Armenia” ?
So long brother. Please keep it turned.
Avery, thank you for the mention of the Sumgait, Kirovabad, Baku massacres. This is just mere 25 years ago. That is what happens when the back was turned. I believe there is the need for instant gratification of reform. Romanticizing about being Armenian or what it means to love Armenia is a wonderful luxury many in Karabakh don’t have being in danger every day. The same goes for people of Armenia who try to feed their children and find work and keep warm through the winter. That is the luxury afforded to the members of the diaspora who try hard to dig deep and “understand Armenia.” There’s nothing to understand – just help, now! Yes, it’s frustrating! But the results are not instant, but your deeds today will make the difference for the centuries to come.
Lucy,Kiffer (sorry if I spell your names badly-All you guys here…including poor old Ahmet,that thinks we depend on ERussia only….ONLY A FEW DAYS AGO IRAN´S Ministre of Energy was in Yerevan and I am certain he also wants badly to sell oil-gas to RA in exchange of electricity for Iran´s North West territories…so calm down Ahmet effendi.
We simply are not the old ermenis to be taken in that easilu.Even if a few out of 10-12 million Armenians are attempted to the Shker Helvasi-Bakhlava or whatever you can offer like renewing YET ANOTHER CHURCH in Sivas……(in lieu of 1000 there before your attempt to wipe us out)…so easy man easy….
Some o one has just offered RA another version of Govt. that will keep both EU and CU a bit at stand off!!!!!
We may yet come up with another version of Gov.t and rule RA pretty much like another country in central Europe. Ni fu ni fa(Hispano catalan) means neither nor…..
Or else deal with both PLUS Iran and USA.Latter is a country that knows quite well by now,after she got to learn about GREAT Turkey.Indeed you have good sources of income ,even from aid from Putin(lately `promised a ten billion loan to build nuclear plants for yo.Business is business after all.Latter learned that quickly…but we armens know how to deal and wheel or is it vice versa.–so WAIT AND SEE as the Brits say.have patience…
To all those in diaspora who had been ‘disillusoned’ in Armenia: Armenia is not a some kind of philosophical concept, or a set of belifs, or any that sort of a thing to be disillusioned in… It is a REAL contry with REAL problems, and it is in this particular state of affairs now because this is the ways we Armneians care for it and look after it. And when I say WE, I mean diaspora and Hayastancy-s aike. For some reason, Armenians like to sit and wait until SOMEONE ELSE (I wonder, who?) will come forward and make Armenia a place that THEY all would be able to love and be proud of. Armenia will never recover its wounds, unless EVERY SINGLE ARMENIAN starts thinking about it as something for which they are personally responsible. We can hate the oligarchs and corruption in the country all we want, but if we personally do nothing to fight it, I mean NOTHING, then we shouldn’t blame anyone else – it is our fault too.
Perfect.
Great article, Apo. As an Armenian, I feel your pain.
Fellow Armenians, Apo’s article proves exactly how Armenia’s ruling thugs are destroying the country. Their oppression of our people is disillusioning our people both inside Armenia and outside. As a result, many will keep leaving, while others staying in Armenia will be further disillusioned. There was another time when Armenians were deeply disillusioned from their authoritarian government: the fall of 1920. And they gave up Kars to Turks without a fight. That is what is waiting Armenia, unless we force Armenia’s government to either become democratic or get out. That is why we need to help our brothers and sisters establish democracy in Armenia, and that is why we need to do it now rather than later.
The Battle of Kars was the largest battle in the Turkish-Armenian war.
Ahmad Oghlu,
Once US and NATO pull their 24 military bases out of Turkey, then you will see how your beloved Turkey will be divided into 4 pieces…the fake Turkish nation are not turks from Central Asian tribes.. they are hidden Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, Alevis, who desire to be called with their real ancestral names…they are ashamed to be called “turks” regardless of their religion or beliefs!!
“they are ashamed to be called “turks” regardless of their religion or beliefs!!”
.
I’m not. There’s nothing to be ashamed about of simply being a Turk. Btw, what are the 4 pieces? Kurds and Armenians want the same lands. Alevis are so poorly organized is laughable. Turkey and Greece have no border disputes or issues, except a few cases of maritime rights where the Greek islands are literally right off the Turkish coast.
Turkey is strong enough to survive without NATO. NATO is meaningless now. Turkey is now becoming increasingly self sufficient in it builds its own weaponry. Turkey now has its own tank, helicopter, naval and UAV production. Also, who will attack Turkey in its region? poor armenia? bankrupt greece? south cyprus? all of them combined is smaller than a neighborhood in Istanbul. Now, tell me what happens if Russia pulls out of armenia? oh..wait a minute. armenia has its own special forces in Glendale, CA. They will come to the aid of armenia once they finish their white chocolate mocha!! You guys are but joke…
{“Turkey is strong enough to survive without NATO.”}
is that why they ran to Big Christian Daddy NATO, begging for protection from that terrible Muslim superpower……Syria ?
whose Patriots are guarding turkey’s borders near Syria, turk ?
which turkish design fighter jets are in turkey’s airforce ?
which turkish design tanks are in tSK ?
the crap Anka – a copy of Israeli UAV (itself a copy of US UAV) – has been crashing constantly.
Armenia has been in serial production of its home-design UAV for 3 years already.
Russia pull out of RoA ? you wish.
Russia has reverted to its old nationalist Orthodox Christian policy of..well you know what it is, don’t you, turk ?
you worry about what will happen when turkey is kicked out of NATO.
you losers have 40,000 troops stationed in tiny Cyprus, because you are afraid of its 12,000 man National Guard.
you think turkey would survive militarily more than a year without NATO ?
who do you think saved your ‘Father’ Kemal from imminent disaster ?
(hint: V.I. what ?)
who do you think stopped Soviet Union from rolling in and taking Western Armenia right after WW2 ?
Why would Turkey touch fire when there are tongs? Remember! It took only 3 days to take half of the Cyprus island from the Greeks in 1974. The whole island would have been Turkish if it was not for the US President Ford. What is armenia without russia? a barren land…yerevan is 20km from the Turkish border.
turk oglu Denialist Ahmet:
You don’t learn too well, do you ?
1. “which is no good for starving armenians in armenia,..” (Ahmet // December 10, 2013 at 5:58 pm // )
You savage Denialist nomad turks keep regurgitating that tired old lie: I keep giving you Anti-Armenian denialists proof that you turks are the ones who are starving,
But you nomads quickly forget.
Hate to bring up this tragic story again and again, but I must.
“Must you ?”
“I must, I must” (what movie is that from ?)
[Mother of impoverished family commits suicide in Adana] (16 March 2012 /TODAYSZAMAN.COM)
{The mother of two children Emine Akçay hanged herself after she was unable to pay for food to feed her children or for coal to
keep them warm in the southern province of Adana, the Vatan daily reported on Friday.}
Yep, a family in ‘prosperous’ turkey, Adana, year 2012, commits suicide because he family was starving and freezing to death.
God bless her soul. God protect her children.
2. “Talk about puppet.”
Yes, let’s talk about puppet, turk oglu. Assuming Armenia is a puppet, at least it would be a puppet of a powerful, rich country with 10,000 nuclear warheads that can obliterate the world, if push comes to shove.
A country that stood up to USA, England, France, Turkey, Saudi Arabia combined. All of them…..in Syria and made all of them blink.
All by itself. One Russia.
On the other hand, you miserable ‘proud’ turks are the puppets of a tin-pot, two-bit dictator that tells you what to do – because you will freeze to death without his cheap oil and gas.
Turkish commentators openly complain about Aliyev Sultanate’s interference in Turkey’s foreign policy, but there is nothing you turks can do.
When Ilham says “Jump”, ‘proud’ Erdogan asks “How High, Effendi” ?
And Ilham is not even a turk.
3. About that Guardian projection:
No, there is no Armenia on the list.
There is no Azerbaijan, nor Georgia, nor Ukraine, nor ….on the list either.
There is no Switzerland, nor Austria, nor …
Get the picture ?
Turkey is on that list because it has a population base of 75 million and an economy set up and propped up by the wealthy Christian West: EU and US in particular.
Only because Turks exterminated the local indigenous populations and ended up next door to Europe.
How are your cousins in Uyguristan and Turkmenistan doing, btw, turk oglu ?
And Saudi Arabia being on that list tells you it is bogus: they produce nothing but oil.
How are they projecting Saudi Arabia will have any oil left in 2050 ?
Economists can’t predict what will happen next year, and you take comfort in some projection for 2050 ?
Will there be a country called Turkey in 2050 ?
How can you be sure ?
PM Erdogan screamed with terror a couple years ago “…catastrophe …. in 2038…if trends continue…”
You know what it was about, turk ? Projection that Kurds will become majority in turkey in 2038, if trends continue.
Have a nice nightmare, worrying about what those “Mountain Turks” will do to you turks when they become majority.
Long before 2050.
Avery,
Thank you for your response. your outburst was emotional, but lacking a rational approach.
If Turkey has the backing of NATO to do the donkey work of fighting, why expend your valuable resources and manpower on the Syrian front ?
Turkey is a Level 3 contributor to the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II fifth-generation multirole fighter craft…
Yes, you are right, you cannot compare Turkey with Armenia, Turkey is a regional power whereas Armenia is a Russian Minion.
I would like to congragulate you for the effort you took to find a man died of starvation in turkey… BTW do you know that nearly 40% of the population in the US is on food stamps, many of whom go hungry to feed their children..
BTW do you know that Erdogan is Georgian, his forefathers were Georgian Christians from Batumi ? Davatouglu has Arab ancestory ? yet the proudly call themselves Turks ?
“vahagn”
Armenians never gave up Kars, after Genocide there were no Armenian left to fight against genocidal Turkish gendarmes and Kurdish gangs.. Lenin ordered his troops out of Western Armenia back to Moscow,
for 1917 October Bolshevik revolution…Armenians retreated around today’s town of Gyumri, Armenia, and fought a heroic war against invading Turkish army and finally they have manged to save Eastern part of Armenia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sardarabad
“gb”, you are either confused or your history is off (as with all your other gibberish posts). The battle of Kars happened in 1920 (as clearly mentioned in my post), not 1917. Kars was part of RoA, and there were plenty of Armenians to defend it. Yet, the Armenian “army” gave up Kars almost without a fight. Here is a link for your education:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kars_(1920)
RVDV
I thought you are an intelligent person…why you forget about Pontik Greeks in “Anatolia” and Black sea are…perhaps they are Islamized like Armenians, but still they are proud Roman citizens!!
What about Christianized armenians 1700 years ago?
The “Pontic Greeks” are irrelevant. Greece is not Armenia. They have no land claims. They pursue no “pontic or greek genocide”.Turkey is not same towards Greece as it is towards Armenia. There is economic cooperation, relative peace, NATO, etc. Plus, with the population exchanges between Turkey and Greece I highly doubt there are Greeks in Anatolia in any significant numbers. Maybe in Istanbul and Izmir a few thousand, but not much more.
Thank You ArmenianWeekly moderators for the prompt service.
and it’s all free.
compatriots: support AW whenever you can.
I enjoy reading articles like this because it gives me hope that there are intelligent armenians out there who are not looking for simplistic solutions and answers. The world has complex political systems that weave many agendas. To understand these and look for progress within this mosaic, is admirable. Thanks for your understandings and hope you find continued peace.
After the elation I experienced in reading this brilliant article I am really saddened by the uncalled for criticisms of this earnest young man by people who seem to have not read the article or ,if they read, understood what he is trying to say.
apo, not sure i understand your article. if you are saying you give up on armenia because it’s corrupt, it produces nothing and does not compare well to russia, the EU etc. did anyone ever expect armenia was going to produce anything like russia or europe?? by numbers alone its impossible. armenia is small on the international stage of course………the ancient greeks had a saying. one does not love his city because it is great. one loves his city because it is HIS. (cities in ancient greece being equivalent to countries or nations.) the types of people who love armenia only because it is allegedly great do not really love armenia they love greatness and they love to convince themselves that they are great because they are armenians.
ahmet – im not going to argue with you like these others are doing. you say that armenia must make peace with turkey or it will disappear. armenia, the country can do what they like, to make peace or not. lets say you are right and armenia will be forced to make peace with turkey? are you proud of this? are you happy that your country (as I assume you are a Turk) has destroyed 2 thirds of the Armenians and now the Armenians are dependent on making peace with the Turks to survive? Good for you, you managed to destroy a civilization through genocide and make them beg for mercy. You have a lot to be proud of, now that you are in the hall of fame of the tyrants and killers of this world. Well, that is in this life. Its Talat who will be begging for mercy on judgment day in the next life for what he did to the Armenians. But even in this life…no matter what you do or say, even if Armenia is wiped off the map there will be Armenians in some corner of the world remaining. You tried to destroy us once and you failed. No one who understands what it is to be an Armenian cares about anything you have to say. This little nation of people will continue to live together, to help each other. You can continue to deny what your great grandfathers did. You can continue to try to push Armenians around. I wonder if you can continue to live with yourself if you do so.
Ahmed Oghlu
I have to congratulate you, that finally you have gained some wisdom and interest about Armenia, that most Turkic tribes, until today was kept in dark side of civilization!! If your rapist uncivilized genocidal ancestors knew few things about Armenia, then for sure they would have think twice before slaughtering and raping an entire peaceful indigenous people of Asia minor!!
https://www.facebook.com/First.Christian.Nation.Armenians
You got it all backwards. You Turks with your twisted logic and hollow pride never cease to amaze me. The future of Armenia does NOT depend on her normalization with Turkey. The very existence of the illegal state of Turkey is the obstacle that must be removed in order for the region to get back to its normal state. What amazes me even more is that you people are totally oblivious to the fact you are the very reason why there is so much chaos in the region yet you consider yourselves the saviors of everybody in the region.
You are a nation of looters that owes its existence to the demise of others. You are the bully in the region that must not only be resisted but punched in the face. If you can’t get what you want from your victims, in order to get away with and absolve yourselves of your genocidal crime, you resort to your inner instinct and do what you know how to do best and that is to try to force them into submission with bogus border blockade and normalization nonsense.
You Turks should take a page from history and educate yourselves that it is not by accident that Armenia and the Armenians still exist, unlike many other ancient nation states that no longer exist, despite what you put them through over the centuries. Keep flexing your muscles illiterate Asiatic nomads. We don’t need you ill-gotten charities you thieves. On a level playing field you Turks have ZERO chance against Armenians.
I strongly beleive that old nations and genes are like the mithical phoenix bird. they rise from their own ashes and start a new life provided they have an agenda in front of them. Otherwise the vicious cycle repeats itself……
There is no turning your back.
You live with it and you die with it. If you don’t, you never loved it at all.
I also have found a place of my own within this beautifully written reflection of our ancestry, our connections, and our questions about where we are headed as a culture. As a fighting minority suffering from generations of post-traumatic stress, we are lost. We are grasping the dirt roads, the scriptures the battles between colloquialisms and classical words, while we still aim to secure our identities. We speak the language, try our best to master writing and reading, tell our stories, and yet we remain the same. All we can do is in fact what is said here, connect. Whether we encounter fellow Armenians or not, we owe it to ourselves to question our identities, to challenge and investigate the confusion that stirs us as Armenians. This is why I found comfort in this article and I related to it as an American, an Armenian, and a Jerusalemite. However, I am still unsure which identity I am personally connecting to the most, or if any of the three truly matter.
I’m with you man. Armenia and Armenian state policies can tear ones soul apart but maybe its good to reshape oneself. IDK
Apo jan,
thank you for a great article, I agree that Armenia goes down the hill instead of understanding that it can be stopped whenever we want. But firstly let me tell you something. Armenia is not less or more than any other countries, but you leave Armenia because your hopes aren’t fulfilled, but there is no such person who can convince me that everything we want we get right away or everything is possible and easy. This is my country and your country as well. And there is something that I can do to make it better I will do. I am fed up too, you can’t imagine, but I still fight, even sometimes I feel that I am worthless or nothing will going to change ever, but here is the truth nothing is permanent, even the power, even the poverty or whatever, life is changing, and you have to decide whether be part of the change or turn your back from Armenia. Thanks for your contribution to Armenia’s developpment, but we need you here, we need more Armenians, or half Armenians to help the citizens of Armenia to fight oligarchs and injustice.
For the first time,I hesitated writing a comment.I’m just like you Apo,with one difference whenever I decide to quit on Armenia, I come back and stronger. You can’t just ignore what’s going on .I do watch tv and mostly the Armenian channels,yes,there are constructive programs.I can enumerate : Azad kodi,Martgayeen Kortzon,Mii Vakhetzir( health related),Hayataran,hayasdani areghdzvadznere,Hayotz hartze,Hai Asbed…..I can go on and on. These are directly and indirectly “tasdyaragchagan”. I let you go through some and then you would realize why you can’t turn your back on Armenia,it’s your homeland,your home,we have to help,until they get to the stage to resolve some of and then most of the problems hopefully. For entertainment,I suggest to watch the last episode of the serial “Mer Kughe”,I wish I could write in the right spelling. All of the above mentioned you could find them on the Internet,and you can see for yourself what topics they are discussing ,in other words,what is bothering the society.I’ve been to Armenia five times.I’ve been in touch with the new generation persay those attending AUA,since I was living close by,they are very promising and they need encouragement. I know,deep inside of you,it’s not what you put down on the paper.I’ve been there. Let’s try to do what we can,pessimism won’t get us anywhere,optimism we still have HOPE.
I am not ashamed of being called a Turk even though I am an islamized Armenian
This is it. Nicely said. These guys are so desperate they exhausted all other means and failed, now trying this hoax. They forget that christianity is not armenians’ only religion. They also forget they were christinized centuries ago.
Well it is time that you be ashamed of the statement you made. If you are a true Armenian you can neither be a Turk nor a Muslim. To claim to be all three at the same time either shows your lack of understanding of what it means to be an Armenian or how lost and empty you are inside. You can’t be an Armenian and be one of the other two, let alone be all three at the same time. They are mutually exclusive and, just like oil and water, they don’t mix.
A genuine Armenian would cleanse himself of anything Turkish just like a rattler sheds its skin and becomes anew. And those who think Christianity and Islam can be mutually inclusive know nothing about the Christian Catechism, the principles of Christian religion, and are heretics. Study your Armenian roots and then put your learning side by side with the other two and then let’s see if you still dare make the same statement.
I agree with Asya Akopyan and Anna Astvatsaturian Turcotte: Good or bad, ARMENIA is ours, Armenia is inside us, and we cannot run away from ourselves, you cannot turn your back on Armenia.
I’m not Yerevantsi, nor Hayastantsi. I’m ARMENIAN, and that’s the most important. I don’t give a sh*t (sorry for the words) about where some Armenian was born or what language he speaks. But one thing is sure:
If you do turn you back to Armenia, don’t come back!
All of us have positive and negative sides: Armenian from the current republic, Armenians from Russia, Armenians from USA, Armenians from Europe,… But most of Armenians do not try to unite around common points, instead they search differences.
Like the author tells, I also was and am often disillusioned and disappointments by the acts/words coming from some particular persons or a group of Armenians. I also often disagree with Armenians from one or another region. … But I do not give up because of this: I don’t do it for Yerevantsi, or Libanatsi, or Amerikatsi or somebody else.
All I do, is for ARMENIA and ARMENIANS, our ancestors and our successors. And that’s what we should live/fight/struggle for.
If I being you guys I’ll ignore all the “Ahmed …”, and reading all the comments I feel like no one of you live in Armenia, or it was million years ago…you are all out of reality
Ahmad oghlu,
As long as penal code 301 exist in a deep state turkey, even an Armenian man in Turkey will call himself a “turk”, otherwise he will be dead like Hrant Dink!!
http://www.worldwatchmonitor.org/2013/09/article_2724558.html/
http://www.tert.am/en/news/2013/11/16/haykazun-alvrcyan/
Apo jan,
I think you’ve mentioned what many of us think and feel. But even by writing this piece, you have in fact not turned your back on Armenia. These types of topics need to be brought to the table to ensure that the Diaspora keep fighting, but to also know for real what Armenia is like, and not the perfectly painted picture most of us have prior to traveling to Armenia. So, thank you.
Though I cannot speak for you, I think you’ll be back in Armenia much sooner. May I suggest you try it this time through Birthright Armenia.
I loved the sentence “I found our lost nation and I joined them in the loss”. It says it all! We can never turn our back on ourselves but we have a lot to work on like the discussions triggered by this article.
{“I am not ashamed of being called a Turk even though I am an islamized Armenian”} (An islamized Armenian // December 11, 2013 at 7:37 am // )
Ummm..OOOOK.
some person posting under ‘An islamized Armenian’ handle says he/she is an Islamized Armenian, and is not ashamed to be called a Turk.
No problem: good for you Sir/Madam.
There are millions of wonderful Turks.
We have one right here, ArmenianWeekly columnist Ms. Ayse Gunaysu.
An unbelievably brave, unique individual. A Turk.
Turks should be proud there are Turks like her amongst you.
Too bad Turks like her are a tiny, tiny minority in Turkey, and are considered alien creatures by the super-majority Turkish nationalist fascists.
But any more out there like you ‘An islamized Armenian’ ?
yooohooo…come out….come out….wherever you are.
‘Islamized Armenian’: would you like me to start listing some of the formerly forcibly Islamized Armenians in Turkey who are just now coming out of the shadows, changing their Turkish names back to Armenian, being Baptized ?
Why do you think they are doing it ?
Do you know that only about 20 years ago 150,000 Christian Armenians of Armenian Artsakh stood firm on their ancestral lands and fought like lions for their God given right to live as Christian Armenians ?
For their God given right _Not_ to be forcibly Islamized or be murdered ? (some choice, eh, unashamed Islamized Armenian Turk (….is that even possible ?))
Why do you think they did it ?
Who do you think was attempting to exterminate or forcibly Islamize them ? the Klingons ?
Live long and prosper as an unashamed Turk, ‘Islamized Armenian’.
Live long, and always remember that Ottoman and CUP Turks murdered 2 million of your non-Islamized Armenian ancestors (1895-1923).
Disarmed men, defenseless senior citizens, women, children, babies (born and yet to be born).
Live long knowing that young Armenian women, boys and girls were abducted by unashamed Turks and forcibly Islamized – after their parents were savagely murdered.
Live long knowing that Armenian mothers-to-be were cut open while still alive by Turks in a ‘game’ of “guess the baby’s gender”.
Live long as an unashamed Turk, ‘Islamized Armenian’: may your God be with you.
Those of us who _choose_ to live as UnIslamized Armenians will do so.
Proudly.
By the Grace of our Christian God and the steady arm of our Heroic Warriors.
And will insist – if we have to.
Like our heroic Christian Primate of Artsakh Diocese, fearless Archbishop Parkev Martirosyan, who stood on his ancestral land, firm, unbowed, shoulder-to-shoulder with his handful of Armenian warriors, as invading TatarTurk hordes were coming over the Artsakh’s hills in their thousands.
Such a unique and GREAT people are we: Armenians.
This is for unashamed-Turk Islamized ‘Armenians’.
[Turkish-Americans celebrating the Armenian Genocide, Washington DC, 2010.]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNfpYNeSyfE
Your adopted savage denialist unashamed Turkish-American compatriots are _celebrating_ the beginning of the Armenian Genocide.
April 24, 2010.
Washington D.C., USA.
Watch the Video.
Behold the young Turks happily dancing and singing.
What is the occasion for the happy celebration ? The ‘launch party’ of the mass murder of Armenian civilians: April 24, 1915.
Eventually about 1.5 Million Armenian civilians would be murdered.
By unashamed Turks.
What later became known as the Armenian Genocide.
Be proud of being unashamed-Turks, Islamized ‘Armenians’.
Progeny of your adopted ethnos are publicly dancing and singing, celebrating the savage mass murder of your Armenian ancestors.
Be proud.
I, a ‘non-islamized’ Armenian, am ashamed for them, these Turks, whose singing and dancing exposed their pitiful ignorance for all to see. Many in this group may be the descendants of raped and enslaved Armenian orphan girls; their souls still enslaved by their ignorance.
Hey, these girls are cute. Some look totally Armenian. Would be interesting to go and mingle with them. Too bad I don’t speak the language.
They are not celebrating the Genocide. They are just celebrating. They cannot celebrate the Genocide because they do not believe that it happened.
(Vahagn // December 12, 2013 at 4:55 pm //)
Hey քոչվորoğlu:
you can go and mingle. It is Washington DC. The signs are in English.
They are Turkish-Americans.
You know, your cousins, Turkbeijani-American nomad.
they are your nomad kin. go and mingle, քոչվորoğlu buddy boy.
“They are not celebrating the Genocide. They are just celebrating.”
Your eyesight bad or just confused, son ?
Do I need to keep educating you ?
Read the sign, nomad:
STOP ARMENIAN LIES
What so-called ‘lies’ would they be talking about
on April 24, 2010 ? Turkbeijani Քոչվորoğlu.
Hey gyavuroghlu:
Are you saying that the Armenian Genocide is an Armenian lie? Funny how easily gyavurs expose their inner slave.
I knew from the beginning. Of your writing that you would “find” what you thought you had lost. It,,s I our bone marrow….never to dissolve. Stay proud. We are survivors and will continue.
Perhaps what Armenians need today is a touch of inspiration from Zionism. We can rise again in the voices of our children. If there is a dream it can be renewed.
Hi L[arry] King! When are you visiting Karabakh?
Yes Mr. King, when Shimon Peres go to Yerevan and lay a memorial wreath in front of Armenian Genocide Monument, and honor Mr. Raphael Lemkin’s well deserved Genocide word!!
Hey Vahagn, when it comes to learning about something, can’t you do any better than Wikipedia? That’s the least accurate source of information. Why don’t you try reading a book for a change? Your statement, in reference to the Armenians abandoning Kars without any kind of fight, is totally false. What truthfully happened in October, 1920, was that the Armenians of Kars, saw an army approaching the city, but due to communications failures, political infighting, and propaganda, they were led to believe that it was a Bolshevik army, coming to assist them. As the army entered the city, the Armenians quickly realized that the invading army was the enemy, the Turkish Kemalist army. But by then, it was already too late. The Armenians, with extremely inadequate arms, were stunned and unprepared, and what ensued was another Turkish massacre of innocent Armenian civilians, women, and children, followed by the customary Turkish pillaging, looting, and raping. In the end, six thousand Armenians were killed. The truth of the matter, is that the Armenians did not abandon Kars without a fight. On the contrary, those courageous Armenians, with the very few guns they had, did everything they could to save their town and people from the much bigger and extremely well armed Turkish army. Hey everybody, if only it had been a fair fight, with equal manpower and an equal number of military weapons on both sides, just imagine what the result would have been? The result would have been that the coward Turkish army would never have shown up for such a fight.
Hey, Yerevanian, Wikipedia is good enough for educating ignorant people. More academic sources might be too confusing for folks like you. If you have a better source, show it, if you don’t, stop putting people to sleep with your annoying posts, for a change. Armenians thought the Bolshevik army was coming to assist them? Where did you get that nonsense? Do you have any sources? Here is another source to educate you, from Christopher J. Walker, quoting prime minister Vratsian. Armenian commanders knew full well that the Turkish army was coming. Yet the Armenian soldiers refused to obey the orders. And when they Turks approached, they fled. That is what happens when the people are sick of their government.
http://armenia-survival.50megs.com/Survival_Ch_8-2.htm
Turks were not better armed than Armenians. Here is yet another source to educate you, from 1st prime minister Katchaznuni’s famous manifesto:
“Our army was well fed and well armed and dressed but it did not fight. The troops were constantly retreating and deserting their positions”
http://louisville.edu/a-s/history/turks/Katchaznouni.pdf
Reading all the comments has been a sad and happy journey. The one thing that is interesting to note is the difference between the Turkish and Armenian cultures represented in this discussion. The Turkish culture represented here is so full of hate and the culture represented here by the Armenians in so full of life, optimism and rebirth. Makes you wonder the world will be a better place by which one of the two.
Ahmet,
for turks of your species, it’s not surprising to call criminals and bandits “courageous, gentelman and patriotic “.
Your government gives you the example, the Bloodthirsty TALAAT is revered as a hero in your country.
I am totally dismayed not only of your past persuasion, but of the
arrogance of writing about it as if a “heroes’ comeback”! I find no
valid reason to “weaken” (using your description) in the wake of dis-
appointments. It takes perseverance, pride and altruism to remain &
support Armenia/Armenian-ism! You apparently are void of those traits. I had 2 brothers with similar traits and attitudes; I turned
my back on them and sure enough will turn my back on you. To repudiate ones’ culture, language, and/or ethniticity, is tantamount
to disowning his/her own personality and predilections. In any event, welcome back and good luck!
my
Avedis,
If you turn your back on individual Armenians, you are also turning your back on a segment of the Armenian nation. You are angry at the author, but you yourself are doing the same thing. Armenians like your brothers can come back. Cutting them off makes it harder for them to come back.
Besides, they’re your brothers. Family should come first.
I’m sorry but I find your post more dismaying. The author has shown that his connection with the Armenian nation is not broken.
Ahmet:
re: (Ahmet // December 10, 2013 at 11:29 pm //)
{“ Remember! It took only 3 days to take half of the Cyprus island from the Greeks in 1974”}
Oh wow: 40,000 turkish troops facing 14,000 Greek Cypriot troops.
Some military accomplishment.
And how far is Cyprus from turkey ? less than 50 miles.
And how far is Cyprus from Greece ? about 300-400 miles, depending.
{“ The whole island would have been turkish if it was not for the US President Ford.”}
No, you got it backwards, turk: if US (Kissinger) had not given turkey the green light, turks would not dare send even one soldier.
US allowed turkey to occupy part of Cyprus. Lots of murky reasons for it back in 1974.
And the whole of turkey would have been occupied right after WW2 by the Soviet Red Army steamroller if not for the US and GB saving your sorry a___es.
And those are historical facts, turk.
{“ What is armenia without russia? a barren land…”}
What is turkey without Christian NATO ?
What is turkey without Christian EU ?
What is turkey without the backing of wealthy, advanced Christian West ?
A barren land.
As barren and backwards as its Eastern parts.
The parts far away from Christian Europe.
Mired in poverty and arrested development.
So how are your cousins doing in Uyguristan and Turkmenistan, turk Ahmet ?
Ahmet:
Re: (Ahmet // December 10, 2013 at 11:00 pm //)
you can Google and find all sorts of obscure sayings about the greatness of turk from some ‘topix’ blog praising turks.
Let us see how turks are doing today, shall we ?
Please explain to the readers of ArmenianWeekly why is it that turks are hated in despised all over Europe ? Today.
Explain the massive hostility to turks in Germany –- from both politicians and ordinary people –- while other non-turk immigrants have successfully integrated.
Explain why is it that for 50 years ‘proud’, ‘magnificent’ turks have been begging on their knees to be allowed into EU, without success.
While EU keeps admitting new non-turk countries left and right.
EU is even having a fight over Ukraine: they are desperately trying to pull Ukraine _in_ by hook or crook, while they desperately try to find ways to keep turks _out_: as far away from Europe as possible.
Can you explain why they are eager to forcibly bring Ukraine IN ?
(pssst: little secret; Ukrainians are Slavs, not turks).
And now our feature presentation:
“turks are great. Really great. The Greatest people in the world”
Grab your popcorn, 24oz cup of CocaCola, sit back and enjoy.
[Austrian MP Ewald Stadler to turkish Ambassador: “People are Sick and Tired”]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThQ61K04Sbo
behold the wild applause from the Austrian MPs, ‘praising’ the ‘greatness’ of turks, turk oglu Ahmet.
Avery, disprove the accuracy of those so called obscure statements about Turks? You can not. They are accurate. We are brave, honest, hospitable. We are peaceful But, once disturbed, we kick …ss.
NATO needed Turkey as much as Turkey needed NATO. Now Turkey is much more independent. EU is sinking. Turkey’s economy is soaring. Turkey is strong like never before. Who gives a flip to EU…
Europe has always failed absorbing immigrants. Germany, France and all are nation states. They are hostile not only towards Turks but also other immigrants including Greeks and Serbs. The Ottoman Empire was able to accommodate peacefully the religious and ethnic identities for centuries. Europe is a violent continent. The most violent wars in history were fought in Europe It has only been peaceful for the last 50 years. Turkey is projected to be in the top 10 economies of the world by 2050, right behind Germany. armenia and armenians have and will always be doomed to remain peripheral and trivial. The Ottoman Empire is coming back. Wait and see…
“Please explain to the readers of ArmenianWeekly why is it that turks are hated in despised all over Europe ? Today.
Explain the massive hostility to turks in Germany –- from both politicians and ordinary people –- while other non-turk immigrants have successfully integrated.”
.
I don’t think that’s necessarily true, and I don’t think the Austrian MPs statements are necessarily reflective of the societies views as a whole. There are, of course, always tensions between the so-called native population and immigrants, but I think ‘hate’ is overdoing it. I think you’ll find few in western Europe that say they openly hate Turks, but we’re not the most popular people there too, I concede. About half of my family lives in Germany, and I have been to Germany 5 times. Not once have I ever felt or seen any sort of disdain or discrimination by Germans towards Turks or any other people. Certainly those that hate us exist, but I don’t think you have a basis to make such a wide/broad claim.
.
I also think large segments of Turkish society have integrated in Germany- see Mesut Ozil- Turkish-German soccer superstar.
.
I do have an answer/theory to why many other large segments of Turks have failed to integrate. (Just for example, my aunt moved to Germany in 1971 and still speaks virtually no German. This is obviously a problem) These people, very large numbers of Kurds and Alevis included, left for a reason. They were poor, or disenfranchised, or persecuted, often a combination. The well-off, big city folk, in other words, the progressives and more modern segments of our society did not immigrate to Germany and the rest of Europe- they had no reason to. Also, if we leave Istanbul to the side, I think you will find that few of these immigrants trace their roots to western (modern, liberal, etc.) Turkey. So expecting successful integration from people who, quite literally, went straight from village life in Turkey to the heart of western civilization is unrealistic. 2nd generation and on have been much more successful.
.
As for the EU, I don’t really care much for it. Sure, it would be nice to get in, but to be perfectly honest I don’t think we belong. Yes, we have land in Europe, but I don’t think that alone can classify you as “European”. And I also don’t think the reason we’re not getting in is because we’re Muslim but more because we’re Turks and we terrorized and colonized parts of the continent for centuries.
My Euro-Turkish brother RSVP. Good points. But as I have told you before, you do not need to separate your paragraphs with dots. Not any more. I started that practice a while ago when AW revamped the website, and others followed. But AW has fixed the issue. You can just use good ol’ line breaks.
Hey Avery!!!
Your yesterday´s post-above-can also be explained thus:-
QWhile I was in Europe some 20 yrs ago,great Turkey had sent an envoy of a bunch of so called kurds(actually their MIT agents,presenting themselves as Kurdish Turks and had paid for an ad in a Madrid Newspaper inserting the future map of a Kurdistan(within Turkey) that had , (git a load of this now!!!!) showing Erevan within that map..
Your pal Guytzag immediately refuted that in another newspaper of Madrid saying, (in brief.)Republic of Armenia cannot be disputed as to its capital city Yerevan,For if any one dare do that will have to answer to the mighty soviet Union of which soviet Republic of armenia is a part…
Now then back to your post above.My God what a shame that of the turkish Ambassador being chucked out, or about to be asked to leave,like the other one in Egypt only a couple weeks ago..
NOW TO ALL HERE ON LINE TONIGHT AT 8 P.M.(EASERN U.S. TIME)the feature film ´ORPHANS OF THE GENOCIDE¨ will be aired on WPBT2-org.I SUGGEST ALL TO THROWN ON THEIR T.V. ´S AND WATCH IT….
=================================================================
ANOTHER NEWS ALERT.TODAY HARUT SASSOUNIAN AND SHAHAN KANDEHARIAN (BEIRUT)WERE BEING INTERVIOEWED IN YEREVAN, BY NVER( A yEREVANITE INTERVIEWER COMMENTATOR…VERY GOOD RESPONSES FROM HARUT AS TO WHY MR.FM DAVOUT OGHLU WAS IN YEREVAN.iNDEED FOR THE bLACK sEA NEIGHBOURHOOD CONF. BUT MADE SO TO APPEAR BY THE TURKISH PRESS THAT HE WAS IN A R M E N I A, A COUNTRY WITH WHICH THERE ARE NO DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS…(pretty much like the ¨¨protocols¨¨ made to appear for the World that Turkey is approaching armenia for good relations .But FM of Armenia explained short and curt. He is not here ,but for the Black sea Conf.so as the non Armenians would not get the wrong idea that there is rapprochement.Especialñly becaUSE fm daVOUT OGHLU HAD EXPRESSED HIS VIEW THAT aRMENIAN WOULD AGREE TO GIVE BACK 2 REGIONS OF nK TO AXERBEIAN ,WHEN GREAT Turkey would condescend to open border!!!
>hell their main intyention is to build on the railway link via Armenia to Baki(Baku) and for that, only….
Hey Vahagn, when it comes to sources, I always have much better sources than you, who is only capable of reading Wikipedia. The truth of the matter is you’re not capable of reading a book. The story of Kars, I have read in Armenian history books, French books, and also in The Burning Tigris, by Peter Balakian. For Christmas, make sure to request Mr. Santa, to get you this book. It’ll be good education for you, Vahagn. But then again, I don’t think you’re capable of reading this book. Are my posts really annoying you that much, Vahagn? That makes perfect sense after all, because these posts of mine reveal all of the false information you’ve been telling up to now. By the way, Vahagn, who’s been feeding you all of that false information on the story of Kars? Your brother,RVDV, or your brother, Ahmet?
Hey, Yerevanian, if you had better sources, you would have cited them, as I cited my sources, instead of regurgitating the same bs. Is there anything in your “French” or other books that supports your absurd claim that “Armenians at Kars fought, but at the same time thought the attacking army was the Bolshevik army coming to their aid.” The answer is no, because no reputable book would make such an absurd statement. If the Armenian army thought the attackers were the Bolshevik army coming to their aid, why did they fight them? And why would Armenians think that the Russian army was coming from the West, the direction from which the Turks attacked? Do yourself a favor and ask Santa for a self-help book on how to read, use, and cite real sources.
Your posts have not revealed anything or accomplished anything other than putting the readers to sleep. They are not annoying for their content. They are annoying for resembling a Beatles song on a broken record (you know, like “Hey Jude…”).
No mention of Davutoglu in armenianweekly? Denialists ;-)
RVDV:
Re: (RVDV // December 12, 2013 at 5:34 pm //)
I agree with you that EU is against Turkey because Turks are Turks, not because they are Muslim. Being Muslim probably adds some to the package, but primary ingredient is the ethnos.
And Ozil is a great player: I know who he is; enjoyed watching him play for the German national team during World cups.
Who were the other two high scoring German team forwards working with him ? One I believe is Polish. Great group.
You make several other valid counterarguments to my assertions.
I accept that ‘hate’ is at the top of the scale: too strong an emotion for the average European to exhibit towards the average Turk in Europe.
But I couldn’t think of anything else at the time: “dislike” (or “not most popular” ) seemed too mild to capture the emotion.
Something between ‘hate’ and ‘dislike’.
I would have also liked to counter some of your other counters, but regretfully have to pass at this time.
Too many other ‘cases’ to process.
Take care.
“the dog howls and caravan moves on”, since 98 years and two years before 2015.
_______________________________________________________________________________
“it ürür kervan yürür”, 98 yildan beri ve 2015’e iki yil kala.
Ahmet:
Re:{“Avery, disprove the accuracy of those so called obscure statements about Turks”} (Ahmet // December 12, 2013 at 5:22 pm //)
Right now I have some other projects on my plate.
But let me see what I can do for you on a few items for now.
“brave,”
Here it is, about the bravery of tSK soldiers, from the mouth of the Chief of Staff of tSK
{Two [PKK] guys can appear and scare away 30 soldiers. This is a scandal. One soldier opens fire after seeing a shadow; others start firing at random and shoot one of our own in the forehead. Our situation is shameful.} turk Chief of Staff Gen. Koşaner’s said that.
You were saying about turk bravery…Ahmet
“peaceful”
Do you consider murdering 2 million defenseless Armenian civilians peaceful ?
Do you consider your country, turkey, launching an unprovoked sneak attack on Russia in 1914 peaceful ?
“hospitable.”
Really ? is that why your invading nomadic ancestors exterminated the hospitable indigenous populations of Asia Minor ?
The real hospitable people: Armenians, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks.
“EU is sinking. Turkey’s economy is soaring”
Let me give you some figures first from CIA Factbook:
Per Capita GDP PPP is normalized for currency diff (Purchasing Power Parity).
turkey: $15,200 (2012 est.)
Germany: $39,700 (2012 est.)
Greece: $24,900 (2012 est.)
Bulgaria: $14,500 (2012 est.)
The reason turkey’s economy is growing faster than Europe, is because they are coming up from behind, from a lower base.
Even one of the basket cases of EU, Greece, has a PPP about 10K higher than turkey.
Their economy is sinking, but they live a lot better than the ‘soaring’ Turks.
Bulgaria, a former Soviet block basket case joined EU only 5 years ago, yet its PPP is about the same as Turkey.
{One in every four children in Turkey lives in poverty and despite the fact that Turkey has the 16th largest economy in the world, the country ranks bottom amongst the 34 member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).}
(15 January 2012 /LATİFA AKAY TodaysZaman)
So much for turkey’s ‘soaring’ economy.
We have to cover Ottoman Empire 2.0 some other time.
btw: How did I do turk oglu turk Ahmet ?
Did I successfully disprove ?
[EuroStat ranks Turkey 30th out of 37 countries in purchasing power]
http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action;jsessionid=14F09F1638051F119CCA36C456D1384A?newsId=333836&columnistId=0
{According to the EU’s statistics agency, Turkey ranks 30th among 37 countries in terms of the index for gross domestic product (GDP) per capita based on purchasing power parity (PPP), the Turkish Statistics Institute (TurkStat) said on Thursday.}
Turkey is soaring allright.
Mir:
Re: (Mir // December 11, 2013 at 10:45 am //)
{“ Thank you for your response. your outburst was emotional, but lacking a rational approach.”}
Thank you for your response to my response: I always appreciate praise from our Turkish guests.
{“ If Turkey has the backing of NATO to do the donkey work of fighting….”}
So you Turks consider Europeans and Americans donkeys ?
This is a family show, so I will phrase it to comply with G-rating of AW: is that why you Turks have had your brown noses up ……donkey’s……all these years, begging, begging,…., begging to be _allowed_ into EU ? for 50 years ?
{“ Turkey is a Level 3 contributor to the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II fifth-generation multirole fighter craft…”}
Turkish technical firms setup and established by the West are participating in the F-35 make-work project.
And ?
What exactly are Turks contributing that is original ?
Can you name one thing that Turks themselves have developed without input from Europeans or Americans ?
Anything ?
Turkey is a NATO member, there are available Turkish engineers to work on projects at lower salaries. So ?
Nobody here said Turkish engineers are stupid: lots of smart Turkish engineers.
There is an interesting guy at Hurriyet Daily News: Burak BEKDİL.
A Turk.
He endlessly mocks and ridicules the grandiose official Turkish claims of ‘Turkish’ this , ‘Turkish’ that.
Anka is ‘Turkish’, except it is not.
The trainer aircraft is ‘Turkish’, except it is not.
It never ends: tanks, ships, trucks, UAVs; everything is ‘Turkish’. Right.
Read his non-emotional, rational mocking of the ‘Turkish’ military design and development.
{“ Yes, you are right, you cannot compare Turkey with Armenia, Turkey is a regional power whereas Armenia is a Russian Minion.”}
Is that why FM Davutoglu (read, the State of Turkey) is desperately trying to find a way to get back together with Armenia ?
Read your Turkish press: Armenia is not trying to get together with Turkey; Turkey is trying to get on the good side of RoA.
75 million population regional power attempting to warm up to a little 3 million population ‘minion’.
Wonder why.
{“ BTW do you know that nearly 40% of the population in the US is on food stamps, many of whom go hungry to feed their children..”}
I know a lot about US. I live in the US. And it is not 40%: it is 15%.
47 million are on food stamps: free food, free milk, free groceries. Free. Free. Free.
US population 310 million. 15% on food stamps, not 40%. Clear ?
And there are parents who do not feed their children properly. Former drug addicts, people with emotional problems.
All sorts of reasons.
Not because there is no food available.
There is so much food in US, 40% gets thrown away.
Did you know that ?
btw: Is that why there is an endless stream of American emigrants trying to go and live in Turkey ?
How about Europe: how many of the 5 million estimated Turkish immigrants living in Europe have returned back to Turkey ?
(I know that number too: I know lots of numbers; read next paragraph)
And it took no effort to find the unfortunate Turkish family near starvation and nearly freezing to death: it’s all readily available in my vast mental database of facts and figures.
I read TodaysZaman and Hurriyet regularly.
I also read a lot of other stuff regularly.
Like I said: I hate to bring up the tragic story of a Turkish mother committing suicide, but when your denialist, nomadoğullar Turk compatriots bring up so-called “starvation” in Armenia, I will respond.
And plenty.
We treat our fair Turkish guests with fairness.
But I have told you Turkish guests before: if you want to play dirty, let’s play.
I have absolutely no compunction whatsoever getting deep into a pool of muck.
And there is tons more dirt on you mocking, sneering Turks from where that tragic story came from.
Anytime you guys feel like throwing mud at Armenian people, Armenia, Artsakh…do it: don’t be shy.
I can’t wait. Neither can lots of our compatriots.
I tried to be as unemotional and brimming with rational approach as I could in my response to your response to my response.
So, how did I do, Mir ?
Hi Avery,
Hope you are well. To start with, I wish you and your family a very warm Christmas. May the new year bring health and happiness to you and your family.
Please do not take it as criticism, albeit constructive… you seem to write too long sentences, it becomes quite long winded that someone might just fall asleep…it is almost like reading a novel…
To start with I am not a Turk…
Donkey work as you are aware is a figure of speech to signify something mundane / getting your hands dirty.. etc. what I meant is if NATO can do the fighting on behalf of Turkey then why bother…Also EU is a sinking ship..it has no foreseeable future in the years to come… it is going to be an Asian century….
You are right that while Turkey had an ambition of joining the EU long ago, but not any more with all the problems emanating from EU.. it is prudent to watch them from a fair distance…The only thing good to come out of the EU trade agreements and customs union has made Turkey into EU’s largest exporter of consumer electronics, developed its ship building, automotive and construction sectors but most importantly opening up the Tourism sector which contributes nearly $30 billion annually.
If Turkey were warming up with Armenia, they would have opened the borders which are currently closed for the past 20 odd years….
I am not sure if you are aware that Erdogan has Georgian parentage from Batumi, his forefathers were Christian…but calls himself a Turk… similarly Davatoglu has Arab ancestory while still calling himself Turk… your general notion of Turks being Mongols is not correct… I will prove it using Mitochondrial analysis. mtDNA as it is called profiles mother to son and provides an accurate DNA fingerprint… DNA samples of Turks a study looking into allele frequencies suggested that there is a lack of genetic relationship between the Mongols and the Turks which you allege… infact during a research on leukemia, a group of Armenian scientists observed high genetic matching between Turks, Kurds, and Armenians….
Can you counter this ?
Random Armenian:
While your reply may have some merit, both of my brothers are deceased and the legacy they left behind (their children) not only
avoid anything Armenian but they consider it to be repugnant!
Avedis,
Sorry to hear about your brothers. That is a sad story.
I’m not familiar with your brothers’ kids, but sometimes something awakens in a person down the road and they want to reconnect. It can happen.
presentday Armenia is proof our spirit still prevails. the turks failed in their genocidal plan to erase our identity. But we survived. Then we survived the rule of soviet communism to regain freedom. yes our nation remains in a state of crisis, but present-day Hyes are the sons and daughters of genocide survivors. They now live in a free nation and will overcome the obstacles of life and diplomacy. Our two best friends are Russia and Iran. As for the Azeri-Turkish blockade, you can thank America for it. The USA ==Congress and the White House–allow the turks to enforce it and strangle our economy and foster the departure of Hyes to the diaspora for jobs. So when we blame Ankara. please include Washington. We can not turn our backs on fellow Hyes. If we do then Sultan Hamid will laugh in his grave. When Hyes in war-torn Syria need help we must help them. The Hyes at Sardarabad did not turn their backs. They stood their ground to stop the Turkish attack to eradicate our nation. Standfast my fellow Hyes.
Hey Vahagn, why do you have so much difficulty comprehending what you read? You are again desperately trying to create false information about the story of Kars. In my earlier post, I already mentioned to you the name of a book, The Burning Tigris, by Peter Balakian, which happens to contain the details on the story of Kars. All you need to do, is send a letter over to Santa, and request him to deliver this book to you on Christmas morning. What’s so hard about that?
Hey Vahagn, if my posts truly put you to sleep, then why do you keep returning back for more education?
He has difficulty comprehending because he is on a mission and wikipedia is one of the few places he can find which which is contaminated with Turkish/Azeri propaganda and which also might seem “credible” since it is an American site, and does not end in .az or .tr. Its interesting you asked why he’s always stuck on wikipedia too… that’s why he is the ‘Wikipedia Warrior’. He can “heroically” quote anti-Armenian drivel from wikipedia edited freely and openly by an Azeri propagandist or the like.
Hey, Yerevanian, you were challenged to cite your sources. Where exactly does Balakian make your absurd claim that the Armenian army at Kars thought the Turkish army was the Bolshevik army? Gives us a page number, and while you are at it, quote from your source, as I did form mine. Hey, Yerevanian, which part of “cite” you don’t understand? Hey, Yerevanian, do you really have such trouble understanding simple English? Hey, Yerevanian, why do you have the annoying habit of putting “hey” before everything?
Although Armenians can get very self-destructive and weird, I am 100% certain that this “Vahagn” character is either working Turks or is a cyber-warrior working for Washington. The task at hand is to spread false information and to sow desperation. And his/her/its presence is proof that one the most dangerous things facing Armenia today is the poison called “democracy”.
Hey Ahmet, that’s a rather hilarious post you made, back on December 10th, at 11p.m. Did your Turkish government masters send you over here to this Armenian site, to provide us with such hilarious entertainment? You really believe that Turks are courageous people? Due to the fact, that your people committed 3 genocides against the Armenians (1.5 million murders), Greeks (1 million murders), and Assyrians (250 thousand murders), and then proceeded to steal their properties and lands, makes the Turkish people courageous? That doesn’t make much sense, Ahmet? You really believe that the Turks can never be defeated? Hey Ahmet, if you at least study a little bit of history, you will discover that the Turks were defeated in World War One. As a matter of fact, even in the few fair fight battles between Turks and Armenians, in which there happened to be equal manpower and equal weapons on both sides, the Turks would always get whipped. Hey Ahmet, your people are not capable of facing my people in an equal fight. Even in the Battle of Sardarabad, which saved the Armenian nation from being wiped out, the Armenian soldiers who consisted of genocide survivors, were outnumbered 2 to 1, and still managed to defeat the Turks.
Hey Ahmet, you really believe that a Turkish woman is a priceless jewel? How’s that possible, Ahmet? No matter how many showers a Turkish woman might take in any particular day, she still continues to smell of all that blood from the 3 genocides committed by her Turkish forefathers. You really believe that Turks are heroes? That actually makes perfect sense for you to believe that. After all, in the Islamic Crescent nation of Turkey, those particular people who were responsible for the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian Genocides, are worshipped as heroes by the Turkish people. As a matter of fact, you even have streets and parks in Turkey, that are named after these savage murderers.
You really believe that the Turks have built an amazing civilization? How’s that possible, Ahmet? The whole entire culture of Turkey, from top to bottom, is a stolen culture. Everything that the Turks have, such as art, cuisine, theater, and ancient buildings, have been stolen from either the Greeks or Armenians. The land of the Turkish nation itself is stolen. Even the genes of the Turkish people happen to be stolen, as a result of raping Armenian and Greek women for hundreds of years.
Hey Ahmet, no matter how hard your Islamic Crescent nation of Turkey attempts to escape from its horrible past, it just can’t pull it off. Your whole entire culture is surrounded by the horror of its past. And everywhere Turkey tries to go, it’s persistently being followed by the Armenian Genocide issue. All of this, is making Turkey sick in the head. The Turkish government has no more tricks to pull out of its bag. It’s all a matter of time, before the Turkish nation begins to collapse. Hey Ahmet, have you been paying attention to those twenty million unhappy Kurds over in the southeast region of Turkey, who are already making noise of their desire for independence? When they do finally revolt, they will easily be able to break off the whole entire southeast region of the country. And, once that happens, it will be very easy for the northeast region of Turkey to also be broken off. After all, northeastern Turkey is almost entirely populated by Kurdified Armenians. Just think about all that for a moment. It is indeed a huge nightmare for the Turkish government. Hey Ahmet, Turkey’s long overdue punishment is coming, and its precious Islamic Crescent is going to be shattered into 1915 pieces. Just wait and see.
{“Although Armenians can get very self-destructive and weird, I am 100% certain that this “Vahagn” character is either working (for) Turks or is a cyber-warrior working for Washington.”} (Harutik // December 14, 2013 at 2:14 pm // )
Judging by the hate-filled vitriol spewing from քոչվորoğlu ‘Vahagn’, most likely a Turkbejani. Possibly an Azerbaijani that used to live in Armenia SSR and moved to US to live amongst Armenian Diaspora as an ‘Armenian’ to sow division and discord.
(there were about 170,000 Azerbaijanis living in Armenia SSR for many generations, superficially indistinguishable from Armenians: most went to Azerbaijan circa 1988-1990: some were reportedly sent to Armenian Diaspora with a mission)
There are many examples of the base hatred directed at Armenians, particularly at Artsakhtsi, but here is one recent sample:
(Vahagn // December 12, 2013 at 4:51 pm //)
{“… unlike the thugs in the pathetic state of “Armenia” (oh, and in that terrorist entity called “nkr”.)”}
{“ Most likely, these thugs from “Karabakh” and the “Fund” would end up with broken bones or worse. Which is bound to happen sooner or later. That, or the Azeris will invade and rape these thugs when the people are gone. I personally prefer the first option.”}
How many Armenians do you know who would call Artsakh a: “….terrorist entity called “nkr”….” ?
How many Armenians do you know who would write this: “….the Azeris will invade and rape these thugs…” ?
Q.E.D.
Exactly what or who the hell is “artsakh”, gyavuroghlu? You mean that Azebaijani region whose Azerbaijani citizen “leaders” pretend to be “presidents”? And who have usurped Armenia? Dont be offended for your favorite gyavur “president”-wannabes, but any wannabe “republic” that mistreats my people, the Armenian people, that disrespects the heroic activist Ara Manoogian (himself a grandson of the hero Shahan Natali, the chief executioner of Talaat and others), does not deserve the slightest respect. Remember, gyavur, the Armenian people always come above any Armenian state. We created the state of Armenia (and “nkr”) and we have the right to end their existence.
Contrary to what you and your gyavur buddy boys claim, many Armenians criticize the state of Armenia and “artsakh” for their mistreatment of the Armenian people. However, unlike a self hating gyavuroghlu such as you, we patriotic Armenians never make offending generalizations about the Armenian people. You know, by claiming that we suffer from “national diseases”. Or by calling our Genocide victims “sheep”. Lets read your anti-Armenian drivel again, buddy boy:
post by “Avery” // November 8, 2013 at 10:39 am // “The twin national diseases that many of our people suffer from: Ստրկամտություն and Օդարամոլություն.”
http://armenianweekly.com/2013/11/07/2003-nobel-prize-for-mri-denied-to-raymond-vahan-damadian/
post by “Avery” // February 26, 2013 at 3:17 am // “no wonder we were slaughtered like sheep by Turks. Turks glorify their military, while we glorify our spoiled brats.” http://armenianweekly.com/2013/02/23/a-story-of-defiance-activists-reject-international-observers-assessment-of-election/
He sounds more American than a Turanian. Or maybe he is a American-Turkbejani working for Washington. Let’s face it, the American-Armenian community and Armenia are one of Washington’s targets. Nevertheless, I have to give you credit Avery, you are the only one here that sees right through his/her/its nonsense and stands up to him. Keep up the good work, enker.
you keep digging yourself deeper into the Turkbeijani hole with each post, Turkbeijani քոչվորoğlu.
You TatarTurk nomads are hysterical that the people you Turks derisively call ‘gyavur’ cleaned your clock and made you invading savages beg for a ceasefire in 1994.
{“ Exactly what or who the hell is “artsakh”,}
{“ that Azebaijani region whose Azerbaijani citizen “leaders” pretend to be “presidents”}
Wow, buddy boy: did you forget for a moment there that you were supposed to be ‘Armenian’ ?
Quite entertaining to observe you keep exposing yourself as the Turkbeijani քոչվորoğlu that you are.
“heroic activist” Manoogian ? Is that why he ‘heroically’ ran as soon as GPD showed up ?
Another loser who has nothing better to do with his life than be a loser “activist”.
His Anti-RoA Anti-NKR “activism” fell flat on its face, again, when this year Western region US and LA County collected record amounts, despite his proselytizing.
btw: what the heck is an “activist” ? do you go to an “activist” university to become an “activist” ?
about them sheeps, nomad: here you are.
[Is Turkey’s Consul Unhappy that not All Armenians were Slaughtered like Sheep?](Friday, May 7th, 2010 Posted by Harut Sassounian)
{I am very proud of grandma Gadar, because at a time when more than a million Armenians were being marched to their deaths by the genocidal rulers of Tekin’s ancestors, she and her fellow Zeitountsis — men, women and children — defended themselves valiantly and refused to be slaughtered like sheep}
“How many Armenians do you know who would call Artsakh a: “….terrorist entity called “nkr”….” ?
How many Armenians do you know who would write this: “….the Azeris will invade and rape these thugs…” ?”
Not a single one and I know many Armenians with different backgrounds and beliefs.
It took me a while to figure out this “Vahagn” and his intentions. He managed to fool me for a while until he lost self-control. Apparently, I don’t have Avery’s intuition. At this point, however, there is very little doubt in my mind that he is an Azerbaijani living in the US.
We should let people in Armenia suffer, deny any help just to get a revenge on Serge Sarkisian? Makes no sense to me.
So “Vahagn” or whoever you are, whatever you are trying to do is not working.
Harutik, there are many posters who see right through this “Vahagn” bozo and stand up to him. If you post more often, you’ll notice.
Dear Avery
Remember we used to have a Robert named person? We all agreed to rename him in AW as “Robert the Turk” and he gladly accepted…. can we name this new Axerbaijani tatar as “Axeri vahagn”…I like to read more intelligent comments like RVDV, who is a Turk himself, but has more natural intelligent than this tatar vahagn..he acts like a wounded animal, paid by his Sultan, for a lip service job in AW!!
Great article, very sincere. I was very impressed and touched, we all need to look at the painful reality and reassess our attitude and role to play.
Hello Avery! Isn’t it amusing how that Turkbeijani clown, who pretends to be Armenian, persistently tries to insult the two Armenian nations of Hayastan and Artsakh, as well as the Armenian people. He’s become very desperate lately. I guess that explains the reason why he has suddenly become so deeply in love with Ara Manoogian. Isn’t it amazing that as hard as Ara Manoogian attempted to prevent Armenians from donating to the Hayastan All-Armenian Fund, he failed in every which way possible. As we all observed, the 2013 Armenian Telethon raised more money than previous years, including 1.2 million dollars more than last year. As always, these yearly telethons bring the Armenian people together in enabling economic projects to take place in our beloved Fatherland. This is truly the definition of Armenian unity. I look forward to next year’s telethon, where we will again set a new record. Let’s see what kind of a new plan, Ara Manoogian devises for next year.
Yerevanian: that’s right.
Dear Yerevanian,
One things that I noticed, those “none Armenians” like our buddy boy, “Turkbaijani Axeri vahagn” can’t control their anti-Armenian feeling for a long time…he reminds me of their Sultan of oil, where he preach like a wonderful Muslim Sheikh, like a wounded dog, 5 times a day for his oppressed brainwashed oil Sheikhdom people!! I wonder who is writing his English essay for him on daily bases!!
Thanks [Harutik].
[John] is right: many of our compatriots, including John, picked on the entity a while back, and confront him regularly on various threads @AW.
I am a little more visible, perhaps because have more time to post.
[Gina] Where have you been ? Long time.
And it is not intuition: all technical and careful observation of facts.
When he/she/it first started posting a while back, the Anti-Armenian propaganda was very subtle, barely perceptible at first look.
Looked like any other genuine Armenian poster that expresses legitimate concern about something objectionable in RoA, for example.
Even then though, there are very subtle indicators that raise suspicion: all there, if you know what to look for.
And then the entity started making little mistakes. They always do.
It’s like the classic stories of super-spies who take the identity of a deceased child, learn everything about the target country, operate successfully for years, but since they have never lived there, they eventually make a tiny mistake in a conversation, for example, and get caught.
After inadvertently revealing his true identity and purpose of visiting and posting @AW and being called out on it by several Armenian posters, ‘Vahagn’ started getting more desperate and shrill. In recent posts, the entity has dropped all pretense, and is openly spewing Anti-Armenian hate.
I mean, I do not recall seeing anything like the vile comment he posted above re NKR and their Reps even from Denialist fascist Turks and AzeriTatarTurks who openly post without pretending to be ‘Armenian’.
Finally, none of us needs to thank others for countering Anti-Armenian propaganda and disinformation anywhere and everywhere in the blogosphere.
It is our obligation to our Hayastan.
However, it is important that a lot more of us become knowledgeable about these things and become more active.
Our young guys are serving at LOC and sometimes being killed protecting RoA and NKR from invasion.
We, keyboard warriors, need to cover all other fronts, including info- and psych-wars being waged against RoA and NKR (….not that what we do here is anywhere near the level of sacrifice our young compatriots in uniform are making).
Avery,
I may have have not noticed others such as John standing up to cyberwarrior “Vahagn” because I don’t visit this site much, being that this place is for the most part comprised anti-Armenia propagandists from top to bottom. I am not one of the many anti-Sargsyan yahoos you see running around yelling that the Armenian sky is falling and calling for Raffiolution, nor do I think democracy is a healthy political system.
Having said that, I did start noticing Vahagn’s comments several months earlier. Vahagn’s obsessive nonsense about how “democracy” will save Armenia from destruction blew his cover, as well as his/her/its very generic writing style. Take a close look at his/her/its writings, they are almost like a tacky infomercial. I know Armenians are naive about topics such as democracy, history, political West and geopolitics and such, but the way Vahagn carried him/her/itself was very suspicious right from the start.
So, from the first post I read by him I had my suspicions. Needless to say, he has since totally blew his cover. Yes, Vahagn is getting desperate, and sloppy.
Avery,
I have been around this whole time, reading everything, just not writing. I have been following “Vahagn” since he first appeared on this forum.
Avery // December 16, 2013 at 5:05 pm // [“I am a little more visible, perhaps because have more time to post.”]
Cool story, buddy boy. Maybe you can hope that some of your “patriot” buddy boys and girls will buy it. However, when it comes to “uncovering my identity,” you were quite a late bloomer.
The first poster who doubted my identity was Gurgen, a typical knee-jerk conspiracist. He voiced his doubts back in October of 2012, just a few days after I started posting. As in here:
Gourgen // October 6, 2012 at 12:42 pm // “Vahagn, are you an Armenian?”
http://armenianweekly.com/2012/10/01/political-persecution-in-armenia-against-former-foreign-minister-oskanian/
My dear “patriot” Sella was another one, back in October of 2012:
Sella // October 15, 2012 at 10:15 am // “Vahagn, What would have Armenia been today if we did not have Armenians like you, assuming that you indeed are one.”
http://armenianweekly.com/2012/10/05/khardalian-with-the-pruner-in-our-defense/
And Sella made this comment after I gave instructions to Karim on how Azerbaijan can defeat my homeland Armenia (i.e. by being democratic).
These early “doubters” were typical conspiracy theorists below the sophistication of an average Armenian. You, gyavuroghlu, actually noted my Armenian patriotism as late as February 28, 2013. Here is your post, directed at me, your regular debunker:
Avery // February 28, 2013 at 9:39 am //: “You consider what you are doing is for the benefit of Armenia, I don’t: you can voice your opinion, so can I.”
http://armenianweekly.com/2013/02/25/hovannisian-defiant-as-official-election-results-released/
Your “delayed” reaction shows that your ridiculous “revelation” of my identity has more to do with the fact that your arguments in favor of Armenia’s regime were repeatedly debunked by me, as they are up to this day. But again, hypocrisy is one of the traits of apologists and pseudo-patriots.
As for my comments about “nkr,” there is nothing vile about them. The fact that “nkr” is an internationally recognized territory of Azerbaijan is the truth, and we Armenians are truth lovers. Now, we Armenian patriots are willing to throw a bone to the “nkr” folks as long as they behave. When they mistreat the Armenian people and usurp the government of RoA, we are willing to throw them back to their long-standing masters (you know, the Azeris).
As for the Armenian “army” and the line of contact, interestingly pseudo-patriots do not care much about the suicides, abuses, and rapes of Armenian soldiers occurring because of the corrupt undemocratic system in Armenia and “nkr.” Here is a recent example of a suicide of an Armenian soldier:
http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/news/130811/
These examples are just some of the reasons as to why, as long as Armenia remains an undemocratic state, the Armenian “army” will be overrun, and the Armenian state will cease to exist, as it happened in 1920. As things stand now, in twenty years there will be no Armenia. And that is what we, the Armenian patriots, are trying to stop.
@Ahmet, I suggest you quit smoking that Turkish hashish when making remarks here. It is eroding what little brain you got left.
Here is what Turks are good at:
1. Invasion
2. Occupation
3. Subjugation
4. Confisation
5. Extermination
6. Falsification
7. Turkificaion
8. Shish Kebob
9. Dried Fruits
Happy hallucination!
Number 10: Joining the European Un– oh wait.
Numbers 8 and 9 are irrelevant. Kebob is Arabic and the dried fruits are produced on the Armenian ancestral lands.
Hey, the language of the Turks is quite beautiful. Take, for example, the phrase “Orun Yıldırım.” The syllables just glide seamlessly. Many notable Armenians (such as Petros Duryan) wrote in the language. Many still use the language (especially the older generation).
Vahagn: too bad that phrase makes no sense.
We have deleted several long comments on this thread because of an insulting word or two, but the insults continue. We kindly ask all those who comment here (and elsewhere on this site) to refrain from name-calling and insults.
Thank you, dear Admin. The honorable thing to do, however, would be to apply that policy impartially, without choosing sides. After all, we Armenians are supposed to be honorable and objective.
Hey Vahagn, you were wishing for me to provide you with the page numbers of the details in the Burning Tigris, in regard to the story of Kars. Absolutely! You can find these details on pages 328, and 329. Page 328, gives the details right before Kars, and page 329, gives the details on Kars. As you will notice, these details totally reject that false story you got from your Turkish sources. Hey Vahagn, in your previous post, you were again telling me how annoying my habits are. But yet, you keep returning back to me for more education.
Hey, Yerevanian, good start, you are starting to learn how to cite your sources. Now, quote exactly where does Balakian make your absurd claims. So it will be easier to debunk you. Hey, Yerevanian, I have no problem of educating you regardless of how sleep-inducing your posts are. Having an annoying student should not stop a good teacher like me.
It is funny watching this witch-hunt … a stereotypical paranoid search for the Other amongst ourselves. I find it fascinating that the predominant assumption here among Armenians is that an Armenian is incapable of taking a contrarian, supra-jingoistic, supra-fake-patriotic stance … Oh, no, Germans (Nietzsche hated Germans) or Ikram Aylisli (an Azeri writer taking the Armenian side) can be such bravely free-thinking individuals. But an Armenian? Psh, oh, no! There cannot be such an Armenian. We all think and talk alike. Anyone who strays from the pan-Armenian script of greatness must not be an Armenian. :)
Karim:
I may respond to some of the illogical assertions in your post later on. (depending on workload).
But first, a short trip down the memory lane:
This what you wrote a little while ago about ‘Vahagn’:
(Karim // July 17, 2013 at 1:28 am //)
{Vahagn, not to join the crowd, and I hate to agree with Avery … but I too think that you are at least a partial Turk. Otherwise, I cannot understand why you feel this urge to take the Turkish perspective, without being prompted or provoked to do so. If my ancestors had been nearly exterminated by another nation, I would be reluctant to GRATUITOUSLY advocate a pro-They interpretation of anything. True, as an Azeri I like reading what you are saying … but at some point it is like … what is he trying to prove? But of course, it is also possible that you are someone (Armenian or not) who likes being contrarian and agitating for disagreement. Still, quit being pro-Turkish, would you please? Let us do that.}
In view of the entirely honest and rational sentiment you expressed in that post, would you consider withdrawing or amending your entirely unfounded and scurrilous charge of a, quote, “witch hunt” being allegedly conducted, in part, by yours truly ?
Thank you.
Avery // December 17, 2013 at 11:29 am // [“In view of the entirely honest and rational sentiment you expressed in that post”]
Try to use some logic, buddy boy. Why would a known anti-Armenian Azerbaijani poster, who has expressed his wish of Armenia’s defeat, expose an Azerbaijani poster? Our Oghuz brother clearly saw a threat in my posts to his country. He realized that if my ideas of Armenia’s democracy are adopted, nothing much will be left of Azerbaijan. Its fun to watch how the unsophisticated pseudo-patriots among us are easily fooled by an Azerbaijani.
Karim, my Oghuz brother, where have you been? You are absolutely correct. Watching some of my simple minded compatriots scurry around is like watching an episode of “South Park” (if you are not familiar with the famous American cartoon, I highly encourage you to watch a few on the internet). As in any nation, there are naturally some among us Armenians who are either less than sophisticated or who prey upon these simple minded folks for their own agendas. My comments here seem to attract them as ants are attracted to honey, explaining why we see more of them and less of the more numerous, intelligent Armenians.
I find that this thread has badly degraded and its usefulness as a source of news or reliable info has been compromised. The integrity of several posters has come into question. Be aware that this format is vulnerable to being abused by those who wish to spread misinformation and dissent among Armenians.
@Avery, my two posts are perfectly consistent and even enforce each other. Yes, I too would have doubts about Vahagn’s real ethnicity BUT, and here is what you are missing in my both posts, I consider it POSSIBLE, and you don’t, that he might very well be a very patriotic Armenian in his own contrarian way. My point, which you miss, is precisely that: you assume this to be impossible, which is what I find amusing. You expect all Armenians to think mostly alike in order to qualify as an Armenian.
@Boyajian, I am sorry, but your note sounds so sinister and paranoid. I even got scared for a minute, and had to look around. Come one, this is just a bunch of people with too much time in their hands, agreeing, disagreeing … no need to jump into a witch-hunt / counterintelligence mode. But I do find it amusing that such contrarian opinions, such as the author of this article and Vahagan, make a lot of Armenians very uncomfortable and they want to shut up the discussion.
@Vahagn, I find your democracy-philia misguided. As an Azeri, I actually do hope Armenia becomes “democratic”. You know, we Azeris tried that in 1990s, and had a total chaos, which Armenia amply took advantage of in the Karabak war. I was, e.g., hoping that Sarkissian’s pro-democracy ally would come to power and destabilize the country thru experiments, and unconditional love of West, and piss off Russia, who would then withdraw its support of Armenia, even if temporarily (we just need 3-6 months to take care of business in Karabak, should Russia look away for a while). In sum, I agree with Avery on the democracy point. It is not a cure for all. If you ask me, demands for democracy is a way for the West to put pressure on the post-USSR space.
“I consider it POSSIBLE, and you don’t, that he might very well be a very patriotic Armenian in his own contrarian way”
“You expect all Armenians to think mostly alike in order to qualify as an Armenian.”
So true in any group (ethnic or otherwise). There will always be hardlined ones that have a hard time accepting someone can be critical of issue plaguing their group. Saying “you’re not one of us.” or “you’re not a real ‘X'” is also a way of bullying others in line. Avery has become quite the online bully overtime and it’s hard to watch.
I understand, Karim, but nevertheless, what do you think about “South Park”?
Vahagniyev,
South Park is a cartoon in which you belong, since it has no creativity, no integrity, no knowledge, and relies on sarcasm and not in a funny way. No wonder your posts are all disturbed. Look what you grew up on.
Not feeling paranoid in the least, Karim. Just stating things as I see them. The Armenian Cause for justice is not a game. I welcome an open discussion among people who disagree with one another, but people are being manipulated here by mind-benders. I find it hard to participate in a discussion where overt and covert agendas compete. You find it amusing, I find it a waste of precious time.
[Hagop D // December 18, 2013 at 12:34 pm // ] [“South Park is a cartoon”]
Hagopoghlu, my question was directed to Karim, an Azeri. If you were confused because you consider yourself an Azeri, be my guest.
[Random Armenian // December 17, 2013 at 10:13 pm //: “Avery has become quite the online bully overtime and it’s hard to watch.”]
Yes. And every bully has its bully-buster. You can be one too. Real easy, just debunk his “points.” Most his posts are filled with gas anyway.
{“Yes. And every bully has its bully-buster.”}
would that be you by some leap of self delusional fantasy, Turkbeijani քոչվորoğlu ?
you are not even the same league, son.
I am surprised you are still here: having your cover blown wide open and having been thoroughly debunked in every one of your gas-filled nonsense bloviations that you try to pass as a ‘post’.
and I have been doing it with 3/4 of my brain tied behind my back.
[“I am surprised you are still here”]
Expect to be surprised for a long time, gyavuroghlu. The smackdowns will keep raining down from your regular debunker. The only thing blown wide open is your wounded ego, as it always happens with bullyboys once they get what they ask for.
I have some good news for you girls ;-)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/12/17/us-switzerland-turkey-genocide-idUSBRE9BG0O820131217
you little Muslim turk girls get excited every time big Christian Euro Daddy throws you little girls some candy.
lots of court decisions, lots of AG Denialist laws, lots of Recognitions still to come: your nightmare will never end, sweet child.
it’s funny how you terrified denialist turks suffering from generations of inferiority complexes of all shades get giddy when your European master throws you denialist turks a little bone ;-) ;-)
From the European Kangaroo Court making a comparison for the Holocaust in a feeble attempt to avoid a double standard embarrassment:
“In those cases, the plaintiffs had denied sometimes very concrete historical facts such as the existence of gas chambers,”.
Ironically the European Kangaroo Court is opening its own passage for denying the Holocaust, since there is no “concrete” evidence of gas chambers, only testimonies.
“Genocide is a very narrowly defined legal notion which is difficult to prove,”.
Translation: “we consider Turkey to be our friend even if we make fools of ourselves through a Kangaroo Court.”
A people scattered all over the world, their ancestral land under occupation, their ancestors bones dug up everywhere such as in deir ezzor, the term Genocide having been invented for their case, countless newspaper articles of the period describing in detail of race extermination, countless foreign reports and testimonies, and these bozos have the audacity to claim “[Armenian] Genocide is difficult to prove”. No, Genocide is not a difficult thing to prove at all, it is quite easy in fact. What is difficult to prove is the hidden bigotry of a so-called “court” – the European Kangaroo Court of Justice.
Why is Ahmet even here? Just ignore him sheesh.
Why is Ahmet even here? Just ignore him sheesh…
Actually Karim, your assumption that all Armenians think and talk alike, is extremely false. As a matter of fact, one of the big problems among Armenians in the diaspora, is that they’re constantly at odds with each other over so many different things. Truthfully speaking, how I would wish for my Armenian people to be more in agreement with each other.
Your statement, in reference to the possibility of poster, Vahagn, being a patriotic Armenian, is absolutely absurd. That just comes to show how little you know about the Armenian people. If you actually take the time to carefully read many of his/her posts, you will observe how this person persistently degrades the Armenian people, as well as the two Armenian nations of Armenia and Artsakh. As a matter of fact, he/she is actually more extreme than a typical Turkish or Azeri nationalist. This particular person is the definition of a patriotic Turkbaijani.
As for the 1991-1994 Karabakh War, despite the fact that the Azeris had so many more military weapons than the Armenians, we Armenians ended up crushing your Azerbaijani military in a rather horrible manner. Not only did my Armenian people succeed in liberating their land of Artsakh, but in addition, they also managed to capture several other territories as well. And, after nearly twenty years, your Azerbaijani nation still hasn’t recovered from that brutal beating. By the way, Karim, for your information, Russia has nothing to do with protecting the Nagorno-Karabakh Republic. The Russian military base is in Armenia. It’s the NKR Defense Army, that protects Artsakh. And, they’re doing a remarkable job too. That explains the reason why President Aliyev has not attempted to send his troops across the border in all this time. The truth of the matter, is that he’s frightened to engage into an all out war with the Armenians. As a matter of fact, President Aliyev is fully aware that if a war breaks out, the defense army of Nagorno-Karabakh can easily wipe out Azerbaijan’s oil and gas pipelines within two days. And, if that were to happen, the entire economy of Azerbaijan would be in ruin. So, because of all this, there’s really very little that your beloved President Aliyev can do, other than to make constant threats against the Armenian population of the world.
Actually, Yerevanian, you are wrong again. I never degraded the Armenian people. I did criticize, sometimes harshly, entities that mistreat the Armenian people, including the state of Armenia, its regime, and the “representatives” of “nkr”. The two are quite different. The first is racism, the second is the duty of every Armenian. In fact, this statement of yours is quite degrading of the Armenian people:
[Yerevanian // December 18, 2013 at 12:28 am //: “one of the big problems among Armenians in the diaspora, is that they’re constantly at odds with each other over so many different things”]
You are basically making a negative generalization about the Armenian people, i.e. that they are quarrelsome and incapable of unity. The truth is quite the opposite: we are capable of diverse ideas, as any human group, and we can unite when the need presents itself. Trying to push Armenians “to be more in agreement with each other”, as you put it, is how dictators and simple minded folk think. It will never work with Armenians, and such attempts will produce the opposite reaction. We are too freedom loving as a people.
[“as well as the two Armenian nations of Armenia and Artsakh”]
Actually, Yerevanian, there are no two Armenian nations. There is one Armenian nation, which includes the Diaspora. And then there is the state of Armenia, and then there is that piece of aborted fetus called “nkr”. These two are not nations, just entities, one internationally recognized, the other, well, pretty much ignored. Your absurd line above shows just how little you know about Armenians.
And by the way, watching the arrogance and cowardliness of the “representatives” of “nkr” in the way they treated heroic human rights activist Ara Manoogian (grandson of Talaat’s executioner Shahan Natali), any patriotic Armenian should have no problem characterizing “nkr” the way I did. Let’s again watch the embarrassing video:
http://www.thetruthmustbetold.com/category/charity/hayastan-all-armenian-fund-charity/
{“ that piece of aborted fetus called “nkr”.”}
Spoken like a true Turkbeijani քոչվորoğlu, unable to digest the humiliation of the massive defeat that NKR heroes visited on his nomadic invading TatarTurk kin.
btw: the real aborted fetus is your Aliyevistan Sultanate gas station, masquerading as a fake country with a misappropriated name.
{“ heroic human rights activist Ara Manoogian”}
is that why he heroically ran from Glendale Hilton as soon as GPD showed up and mentioned the word “arrest” ?
The loser has nothing better to do than go and hang out at a local Hotel so he can accost NKR Government officials.
It was quite heroic of Glendale’s finest to show the bullyboy that his tactics will cut no muster with GPD: quite entertaining to watch him being unceremoniously thrown out.
Karim:
That’s what I like about Azerbaijanis: with complete self delusional confidence they can see white, where everybody else sees black, and vice versa.
Sort of like you being in Baku in 1990 and not seeing any pogroms of Armenians.
Read your post again from July 17 in its entirety.
Yeah, sure: there is also a possibility that he might be a Klingon.
But what does the preponderance of evidence show.
There is a possibility that Azerbaijan will say: “Yes, we accept NKR; we give up all our claims to your historic Armenian lands; also, we will withdraw from Lowlands Karabagh all the way back to Kur river”.
But history and preponderance of evidence says the theoretical possibility has 0.0000000001% actual statistical probability of coming true.
{“ such as the author of this article and ……, make a lot of Armenians very uncomfortable and they want to shut up the discussion”}
As [Yerevanian] wrote above, you know very little about Armenians.
You think you do, but you don’t
We are united in many ways, but not nearly enough.
One of the reasons we are in the pickle we are in today.
Obviously your false charge that Armenians want to shut up the discussion flows out of either malice or ignorance.
I challenge you to show me a single Azerbaijani version of ArmenianWeekly from Azerbaijan or Azerbaijanis anywhere in the world, where posters from all sorts of backgrounds, Armenians and non-Armenians, are given the opportunity to present their views, and let the best ideas win.
You can’t.
The Azerbaijani version of really shutting up discussion is to offer $10,000 to anyone to cut off an ear of a harmless 75 year old Azerbaijani writer.
Discussion ended when his books were publicly burned and his family harassed and threatened.
And you are ragging on Armenians about “shutting up discussion” ?
As to the author of this article: I applaud AW for giving people like him a forum.
They exist in our community: hiding them will not make them disappear.
This gives us the opportunity to publicly counter and debunk his arguments.
I am disappointed that _any_ Armenian poster would support his views, but also very happy that many more gave him a vigorous pushback.
Nobody is trying to shut anybody up: the author presents his views, and we present ours in a public forum courtesy of ArmenianWeekly.
What is the expectation, that we just sit back and accept what he says ? If we do not challenge him, we are in effect saying “You are right, Sir”.
The idea is to demonstrate to the readers of AW the error of his ways by facts and rational counter-arguments.
That is how Armenians operate: we don’t put out a bounty on someone’s ear.
Finally: one of the briefest and most poignant replies to the author and to end vacuous discussion was given by this poster:
[William Bairamian // December 11, 2013 at 2:09 am // Reply
There is no turning your back.
You live with it and you die with it. If you don’t, you never loved it at all.]
Quite so: “…you never loved it at all”.
[Avery // December 18, 2013 at 2:26 pm]
[“Read your post again from July 17 in its entirety”]
Here is another post by Karim, buddy boy, from that exact page, which you conveniently “forgot” to quote. It perfectly explains why he suddenly decided to “expose” me:
[Karim // July 1, 2013 at 10:20 am //}
[“As an Azeri, I’d rather have Avery (and those like him) as the enemy than Vahagn, Random Armenian, et al. It is much better if your enemy’s eyes are clouded by overconfidence and blind hatred, than have someone who can think straight.”]
http://armenianweekly.com/2013/06/20/rendahl-vay-vay-vay/
In other words, our good brother Karim views Armenians like me or Random, i.e. Armenians who are capable of thinking and presenting fresh ideas, as a threat.
[“I challenge you to show me a single Azerbaijani version of ArmenianWeekly”]
I have always said that we Armenians are a great, tolerant people, and Armenian Weekly is one example. As I pointed to Karim, the problem is not the Armenian people in general, but those like you and your little group who, when hearing something smacking against their simplistic line of thinking, have the usual pathetic reaction starting with the same phrase: “no Armenian would …” Amusing and yet pathetic.
[“What is the expectation, that we just sit back and accept what he says ?”]
The expectation that we have of intelligent Armenians is to challenge the points that they disagree with. The less intelligent, however, are expected to try to push decent people like the author of this article away from the Armenian nation. A good example (from this page) of such less than intelligent reaction is this:
[“And you “Turned Your Back on Armenia” ? So long brother. Please keep it turned.”] Avery // December 10, 2013 at 7:01 pm
Avery I don’t think the author is really turning his back on Armenia, just the higher ups and certain people, which is in effect the state. Not the people or the culture or anything like that. After all what makes a person an Armenian? Where he lives? Or who rules over them? No man, it’s in the heart. He is an Armenian in his own way, he hasn’t forgotten the genocide or his roots, he says as much if you had been actually reading. Just disillusioned from all the sociopolitical infighting, which of course will never get anything done.
{“ Avery has become quite the online bully overtime and it’s hard to watch.”}( Random Armenian // December 17, 2013 at 10:13 pm //)
Then don’t watch: anybody forcing you pal ?
Told you before: you don’t like my posts, don’t read them; skip and go to the next.
Lots of stuff for you to read besides mine.
One more time: I don’t give a rats what you or anybody else thinks about what or how I post.
Only one entity has a say: ArmenianWeekly.
Don’t like the way I post, start an online petition and convince AW to ban me.
Otherwise, go pound sand.
re: (Mir Ali // December 17, 2013 at 6:43 pm //)
Hi Mir Ali:
Thank you, I am quite well. And very best wishes for the coming New Year to you and to your family too.
May God’s blessings be upon you and yours.
You say you are not a Turk: OK, so what ethnicity are you ?
In any case, you are advocating on behalf of Turkey and Turks: so it does not really matter to me what ethnicity you are for the purposes of this and similar discussions.
And if you find my posts long and putting you to sleep, then please don’t read them: no obligation and no penalty.
Little secret for you; my posts are not meant to convince you, for example.
Your mind and the minds of most other posters are already made up long before they post.
My posts have another purpose.
Regarding the donkey: I am aware of all sorts of figures of speech. I would not use the image of ‘donkey’ to describe people and counties that have helped Turkey so much. The fact that you used it shows how you really feel: you slipped up, and inadvertently revealed your true feelings.
I would never call our allies Russia and Iran donkeys, in a manner of “figure of speech” or any other way.
Re: {“… your general notion of Turks being Mongols is not correct…”}
Show me the post where I supposedly gave a general notion of Turks being Mongols, then I will “counter this”.
I already put enough people to sleep today: need to stop here before it gets out of hand.
“You say you are not a Turk: OK, so what ethnicity are you ?”
A typical comment from a racist.
According to Oxford English Dictionary, racist is a person who believes that a particular race is superior to another. Based on this definition, what exactly was racist in the phrase “what ethnicity are you”? You, Turks, are… something
Well I think the Author is turning his back on the state of Armenia, you know, the higher ups and all that. But not Armenia as a nation of people and it’s culture. He is still an Armenian, and he definitely loves his country he hasn’t forgotten his roots or the genocide. I believe he is just disillusioned by all the sociopolitical infighting going on, which of course will accomplish nothing and only serve to further separate it’s people further. His usage of his “realistic” approach would make sense if one were to read his other posts at different websites, they would also know what he said about the Kurds living in Western Armenia would not just sit there idly by, soon Armenians will become the aggressors to another and the cycle would repeat itself. And if that’s what someone wants then, hey more power to them. But do not denounce this man, for he is fighting for Armenia in a different way. After all what is it that makes someone Armenian? No it’s in the heart man?
Hey Vahagn, exactly what do you plan to educate me with? Your Turkish sources or your Wikipedia? Why is there a need for me to recite to you, the story of Kars for a second time? I already recited the story of Kars to you, in my earlier post from December 12th, at 2:50 a.m. If your reading comprehension is that poor, then that’s your problem. Anyway, as I told you earlier, you can find the details leading up to Kars, on page 328, and the details of Kars, on page 329. These details run parallel with the story of Kars, which I recited in my earlier post, as opposed to that false and absurd story you’ve told so many times, about the Armenians abandoning Kars without a fight. Hey Vahagn, no matter how hard you try, your desperation in creating false information will never prevail. You can be sure about that. By the way Vahagn, in your previous post, for the second time, you were again telling me that my posts cause you to sleep. But yet, you keep returning back to me for more education.
Regarding Avery’s question, how many Armenians would call Artsakh a “terrorist entity” – the answer is ZERO, barring of course Armenians with mental illness. In the case of Vahagniyev’s comments, some of them are so far removed from Armenian reality, it is often painful watching him make a fool of himself. Some of his other comments are actually shared by many Armenians, but mixing a ‘fair’ differing opinion and silly delusion, not to mention a seemingly underlying hatred of Armenian culture which sometimes comes out, is not going to cut it for us to accept as “just another Armenian who thinks differently”.
Armenians who fought for their lives and prevented another genocide, “terrorists”?? Never mind Armenians for a sec. The only people that would have any reason to call Artsakh “terrorist” are Azeris. Not even the average Turk in Turkey would resort to that kind of a description, unless they are extremists. There actually are Armenians out there who at the time of the NK war believed that Armenians should not engage in the war and give up the lands, in the name of peace, some of them well known authors. That’s called a “difference of opinion”. But saying stuff like terrorists and Azerbaijan will take over soon (as if that’s what’s supposed to happen) is an entirely different ballgame. It is too suspicious to be a difference of opinion.
And it is no secret that Azeris are obsessed day and night over Artsakh, they want more than the land itself, they want the culture and history that goes along with it, because as of now without Artsakh, they are having an extremely hard time making their fantasy culture believable. Karim can take a hint that there is a difference between having a ‘difference of opinion’ and ‘pretending’ to have it with suspicious behavior for a specific purpose. After reading Vahagniyev’s “comments”, it appears his primary objective is to create division, and not much else, since he doesn’t have much common sense to have any kind of real impact.
@ Mir Ali
You say scientists found a genetic similarities between Armenians and Turks. Were you expecting any different? For at least three centuries Ottoman Turks were confiscating Armenian children by force, who grew up to become Turks. So what else is new? When we speak of Turks of Central Asian origin, nomadic past, Mongolian kin, etc, today it is largely a cultural aspect, or rather a primitive mindset alien to Anatolian culture even though in many cases traits of Central Asian genetics are still visible amongst Turks.
[Hagop D // December 19, 2013 at 1:48 am //: “Regarding Avery’s question, how many Armenians would call Artsakh a “terrorist entity” – the answer is ZERO”]
How do you know that, Hagopoghlu? There are 10 million Armenians in the world. Have you interviewed every single one of them? Show us your report. Your statement is precisely differentiates intelligent Armenians from the simple minded chaps.
“nkr” is a terrorist entity because it terrorizes my fellow Armenians. Let’s again watch the video of these coward thugs first trying to bully heroic activist Ara Manoogian and then cowardly scurrying around, trying to cover up the truth that he speaks about “nkr”
http://www.thetruthmustbetold.com/category/charity/hayastan-all-armenian-fund-charity/
Regarding this article and Apo Sahagian the author, I do not think I share the negative opinion of some of my compatriots here and I do not think this is a hopeless case. There are many Armenians in the traditional diaspora who feel this way, in my opinion out of frustration and not due to anti-Armenianism. Although I started out not liking the article, and read defensively, by the time I finished I felt like Apo let the reader figure out the second part which he did not admit. A more fitting title, or rather a concluding remark to this article would have been:
“I Turned My Back on Armenia but I Cannot Walk Away”
This is what I felt he was trying to say. I felt the author tried somehow unsuccessfully to turn his back on Armenia. He turned his back but perhaps it is a call for help.
Although he wasn’t too specific, I probably do not share some of Apo’s opinions, but I did like his independent line of reasoning when he stated “Russia pulls strings comfortably from Moscow or the EU threatens our political reforms from Brussels” – at least he did not fall into the trap of “either-or”… a sovereign, free and independent Armenia is ideal, if unrealistic at this time.
Hey Vahagn, what happened? On two separate occasions, you were telling me that my posts put you to sleep. Well, my previous post to your Azeri brother, Karim, sure didn’t put you to sleep. On the contrary, it awakened you deeply. Hey Vahagn, with all your desperation, you’re again trying to tell us that you never degrade the Armenian people? This site is filled with witnesses who’ve observed how you’ve been degrading the Armenian people in an extremely persistent manner. Have you already forgotten that post, in which you stated that the Armenian women of Armenia, run to Turkey to become prostitutes?
By the way, Vahagn, you again are attempting to create false information about what I said earlier in reference to, “one of the big problems among Armenians in the diaspora is that they’re constantly at odds with each other, over so many different things.” The vast majority of Armenians in the diaspora, will agree that they are divided on many issues, such as how to improve the situation in Armenia, what role the Armenian Apostolic Church should play in the Armenian culture, how to approach the issue of the Islamized Armenians in present day eastern Turkey, how to go about seeking reparations from Turkey for the Armenian Genocide, as well as many other issues. However, just because Armenians in the diaspora might be divided with each other on so many different things, does not at all mean that I’m implying they’re not capable of unity, as you are desperately trying to put forth. On the contrary, when they feel like it, they’re very capable of unity. A good example of this, would be the yearly Armenian telethons which do a great job in uniting the Armenian diaspora. Another good example, is the strong Armenian unity which is present right here on Armenian Weekly. Hey Vahagn, as hard as you’ve attempted to disrupt the Armenian unity on this site, you’ve failed in every possible way. And, for your own education, there are two Armenian nations. One is called the Republic of Hayastan. The other is called the Republic of Artsakh. The Armenians who live outside these two nations, constitute the diaspora. Your level of knowledge on the Armenian people, is just as bad as your Azeri brother Karim’s knowledge. Hey Vahagn, it’s rather amusing that every time I bring up the subject of Artsakh, you become deeply disturbed and annoyed.
As for your sweetheart, Ara Manoogian, there is certainly nothing heroic about him. The only thing he has tried to do up to now, is block the Hayastan All-Armenian Fund, which enables economic projects to take place in the two Armenian nations of Hayastan and Artsakh, which benefits the Armenian people. However, he has failed in every which way. In that video, it was rather amusing, observing how Mr. Manoogian gets forced out of the hotel. In that particular moment, he certainly didn’t look like a hero. He looked like a loser.
Hey, Yerevanian, you view the diversity of Armenians’ opinions as a negative trait. I view it as an asset. In other words, you make a negative generalization about our people. I do the opposite. That makes our comment degrading of the Armenian people, and that is how self-haters think. If you still have trouble understanding it, let me know, and I will educate you some more.
Here is further education. Once again, ROA and “nkr” are not nations. Try to avoid making such illiterate statements. Armenians are a nation. Here is the definition of “nation.” Either “nationality” (like we, Armenians), or “a large area of land that is controlled by its own government,” like my country of United States
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nation
“nkr” is not a large territory. As I stated earlier, it’s a pathetic little piece of aborted fetus (geopolitically speaking, of course).
Hagop, you speak of fantasy, and yet you say: “And it is no secret that Azeris are obsessed day and night over Artsakh, they want more than the land itself, they want the culture and history that goes along with it, because as of now without Artsakh, they are having an extremely hard time making their fantasy culture believable.” Artsakh? Don’t make stuff up. The name, the internationally recognized name, and its name since inception has been Karabak! You try to find some obscure name in Armenian history that could potentially refer to a place around the same area, and since Karabak is clearly an Azeri word (Black garden), you try to bring that in. Also, fantasy: there is no such nation as Artask. There is such a nation as Armenian, yes. But with your logic, there is Glendale Armenian Nation, blah, blah. Yes, Karabak is under dirty invaders’ feet, and we will liberate it. Armenia is a dying land, people like Avery and yourself have felt. Left behind are good-for-nothing losers, not smart enough to find a way out. Think of it as a natural selection, leaving behind only the least capable ones among your enemy – which is a great news for us. Now, about Karabak being a historic Armenian land, I challenge you to name any period in history in the last 1000 years where it was ruled by Armenia? It has not. It has always been by Azeri ancestors. As for what happened to 1000 years ago, it becomes murky with Albania, etc. But quite very clear for the last 1000 years. And I think it is more than enough … Do you know its last ruler was before Russians came over? Ibrahim Khalil khan Javanshir (1732–1806), who signed the Kurekchay Treaty between Russia and Karabakh in 1805. If it was Armenian, if Stalin is who had given it to Azb (as you Armenians love to tell yourselves), why the heck were Russian signining the treaty with an Azeri ~100 years before Stalin was born?! Can you tell me that? Checkmate. Go, listen to you grandma’s fairy tales, my friend. Leave history to adults. Were there ever Armenians in Karabak? Sure. Like gypsies, Armenians have been scattered all over the place, leaving under other people’s rules for at least 1000+ years.
And to you and to Avery, who imply that Armenia keeps occupying Karabak due to your singular bravery, answer me this, sir. Why the heck then have you given up the control over your country to Russia due to reasons that your own president calls “security reasons”. If you don’t need Russia, why the heck do you need them so much?
As for Vahagn, I don’t care what ethnicity he is. It is just becoming really painful and disgusting to watch a large group of people harassing and ganging-up on a single individual, like watching a bunch of surprised chicken corner a little lizard to peck. But if you are curious about my opinion, if he is not an Armenian, I doubt he is an Azeri. We never refer to ourselves as Oghuz as he has mentioned regarding Azeri’s. Only Turks or other Turkic speaking people in Turkey (such as Meskheti Turks, or Cherkez, etc) may be doing so, per their pan-Turkic history books.
Vahagn, yes, I like South Park. But you are looking in vain here for a sense of humor. These guys are out for blood, Armenian, Azeris, fake-Armenian, or whatever, as long as it is blood. Once the herd mentality kicks in, it is best to get out of the way.
@Avery, yes AW is a great publication, as I have acknowledged many times. And I am grateful to them for letting me participate in these discussions. But don’t rush to derive therefrom the inferiority of Azeris because we don’t have something similar. For one, AW is an AMERICAN enterprise. I would imagine that it is mostly staffed and made possible by Americans used to the idea of free speech, professionalism etc. And there are much more of you in America than us Azeris – no secret that you are better organized, largely due to your larger numbers. AW is an accomplishment of America as a nation more than of Armenians. As for freedom of speech, Armenia itself is no such champion. Just a few days ago your dictator Sarkissian arrested a bunch of protestors when Putin was visiting there. As for our Aylisli, no one has cut off his ears. He is still living in Azerbaijan. How many Aylisli are in Armenia? Looking at how you are cyber-bullying Vahagn and others out here, I am not surprised that there are none. At least we have an Aylisli. You don’t. And you don’t seem to want to have one …. That would be a sign of being a fake Armenian.
Arto Tunçboyacıyan got ripped off in Armenia:
http://hetq.am/eng/news/31420/tun%C3%A7boyac%C4%B1yan-goes-public-how-they-ripped-me-off-for-$28000.html
Stuff like this adds up to low opinion and morale within the country.
We are shocked, shocked that there fraud in Armenia.
Shocked, shocked.
We need to do everything to to make sure Armenia becomes like USA, where fraud is unheard of.
What ? there is fraud in these Unites States ? I don’t believe it.
If there was, these Anti-RoA shills would surely also mention it, wouldn’t they ?
No they wouldn’t, because they have an inherent Anti-RoA bias.
And stop calling me “Shirley” (love that line from Airplane).
In addition to the link presented by the great friend of RoA Random Armenian, who spares no effort finding good news about Armenia, we add our own list of transgressions from that land of corruption and oligarchs.
[Alan Grayson’s Lost $18 million in Ponzi Scheme]
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/09/Alan-Grayson-s-18-million-Loss-from-Being-Defrauded
[Bernie Madoff’s $50 Billion Ponzi Scheme]
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/12/madoff-ponzi-hedge-pf-ii-in_rl_1212croesus_inl.html
[Pentagon guilty of billion-dollar accounting fraud, reveals Reuters investigation]
http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/18/5117816/pentagon-guilty-of-billion-dollar-accounting-fraud-reveals-reuters
Shocking: the level of corruption and fraud in Armenia is beyond…..something.
We are truly shocked, shocked.
Stuff like this gets played out millions of times in Western countries on a regular basis yet not a single one of them is turned into a major “political matter”. Self-destructive Armenian natives, naive Diasporans (with major attitudes nonetheless) and Western funded propaganda outlets such as Hetq, Radio Liberty, Lragir and ArmeniaNow are turning these otherwise normal criminal matters into an issue of life and death. Guess what folks, every single one of Armenia’s neighbors live just as bad if not worst than the average Armenian – yet it is only the Armenian that freaks out and seeks to abandon his homeland. Why is that? Could this be a genetic/cultural problem? Could this be a result of Western psy-ops? Perhaps both. We Armenians are not yet ready for full independence. The most revealing part of all in this story is that Arto got had by a Diasporan Armenian with ties to the ARF.
Let’s debunk our ROA-apologist buddy boy, from his own sources:
“William Dean Chapman, 44, of Sterling, Va., pilfered more than $35 million from more than 100 investors and was sentenced to 12 years in federal prison on Friday.”
“Expect Madoff to be one of the first jailed investors of the 2008 market meltdown”
You see, gyavuroghlu, while corruption exists everywhere, in a democracy the thieves are held responsible. How many oligarchs have gone to jail in Armenia for stealing from the people? Unless they fell out of favor with the regime.
Avery, you are so full of straw man arguments sometimes. It’s never about having corruption and fraud, and none at all. It’s about the level of corruption and if there is a justice system that is dealing with them. What happened to Arto is very common in Armenia. The less corruption and fraud, the better Armenia will be. This is a universal goal in all countries and not about “let’s be like the USA where everything is perfect.”
Accusing me of being anti-RoA is a dishonest debate tactic. It’s painful to watch all the corruption and oligarchs in Armenia. And it’s painful because we care. Pointing out that these are happening is the first step in changing the government AND society. Trying to silence this through shaming actually makes the problems linger. Talking about these openly is not anti-RoA, but pro-RoA. That’s the one thing one should learn from the USA. Openly talking about an issue, raising ones voices, changes the public mindset and in turn the government. This has happened over and over in the USA, and the country has progressively improved.
So it’s ok to have corruption and fraud in Armenia because it also happens in the USA? I’m assuming your answer would be no. But I could ask such a question to dishonestly insinuate that you’re actually ok with fraud and corruption in Armenia.
Harutik,
“We Armenians are not yet ready for full independence.”
And how do you propose Armenia becomes ready for full independence? Being content that Armenia is just as bad or only slightly better than her neighbors is not the right attitude. People of a country must demand better from their government.
And people pooh-poohing democracy, what form of government do you propose? How do you choose who leads your country?
Hey Vahagn, are you so desperate that now you’re going to attempt to create additional false information and say that I have a negative generalization about my Armenian people? By now, all of the Armenians on this site, know how extremely devoted I am to the Armenian people. As for you, Vahagn, you have been firmly against anything that has to do with the word,”Armenian.” That explains the reason why you have invested so much of your time in delivering horrible insults against the Armenian people, and their Fatherland. Would you like a few more examples from very recent? How about that post of yours, underneath the video, showing those Turkish women ridiculing Armenians on Armenian Genocide Day, in which you state how much you would like to go and mingle with the Turkish women in that particular crowd? That statement by itself, is extremely insulting to the Armenian people. What about that post of yours, in which you refer to the Artsakh Armenians as being terrorists? The vast majority of your posts are filled with insults directed against Armenians.
Hey Vahagn, how can you possibly say that if a territory happens to not be large, then therefore it cannot possibly be a nation? That’s ridiculous. Not only is your knowledge of law and democracy poor, but in addition, your knowledge of nations is just as bad. By the way Vahagn, no matter how hard you and your Turkish/Azeri brothers attempt to label the Republics of Armenia and Artsakh as not being nations, you will always fail. The two nations of Armenia and Artsakh, are here to stay forever.
the terrorist entity is your own fascist terrorist homeland of Turkbeijan, քոչվորoğlu.
the aborted-fetus is your own fascist terrorist abortion called Turkbeijan, քոչվորoğlu.
and your fake tough-guy idol Ara Manoogian ran ‘heroically’, as soon as GPG officers showed up and mentioned the magic word ‘Arrest’.
Pathetic.
Actually Karim, that statement by Hagop in reference to Azerbaijan being deeply obsessed with Artsakh, is very true. This explains the reason why Azerbaijan’s terrorist leader, President Aliyev, persistently makes threats at the two Republics of Armenia and Artsakh, on a daily and nightly basis. By the way, Karim, let me take a moment to correct your lack of education. The internationally recognized name of the country we’re talking about here, is Nagorno-Karabakh. The name, Karabakh, was first used among Persian and Georgian sources in the 13th and 14th centuries, to refer to an Armenian principality known by modern historians as the Kingdom of Artsakh. That, of course, explains the reason why the people of this country refer to their land as Artsakh.
Hey Karim, in your previous post, you were desperately and falsely trying to point out that Nagorno-Karabakh was never Armenian. Are you ready for some more education? To begin with, Karabakh is mentioned for the very first time in inscriptions by Sardur 2, the king of Urartu (763-734 BC), which is located in Armenia, in the village of Tsovk. In 180 BC, Karabakh (Artsakh), became one of the 15 provinces of the Armenian kingdom, and remained a province until the 4th century AD. As a matter of fact, Tigran the Great, who happened to be the king of Armenia, from 95-55 BC, founded the city of Tigranakert in Artsakh, which he named after himself. In 387 AD, after the partition of Armenia between Byzantium and Persia, the Armenian province of Karabakh came under the rule of the Persian Empire. Despite also being under the rule of the Byzantines, Arab Caliphs, and Turks, during various periods of time, Karabakh would remain under Persia’s rule, on and off, until 1813. However, even during this period of over 1400 years, of being under the rule of these foreign aliens, the Armenian culture and civilization continued to flourish in Karabakh. In the 5th century, the first ever Armenian school was opened by Mesrob Mashtots, on the territory of Karabakh, at the Amaras Monastery. And, in addition, the ancient inhabitants of Karabakh, spoke a special dialect of the Armenian language. The Armenian territory of Karabakh, would eventually come under the rule of the Russian Empire, following its war with Persia, which resulted in the Treaty of Gulistan in 1813. One hundred and ten years later in 1923, the Russians who were by then functioning as the newly formed Soviet Union, gave away Artsakh to Azerbaijan, with the belief that this action among other things would persuade Turkey to join the Soviet Union. Turkey, of course, did not join the Soviet Union. As for Artsakh, even though it happened to be part of Azerbaijan for 68 years, until the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, the overwhelming majority of its population remained Armenian during that entire period of time. And, as soon as the Soviet Union dissolved, it became totally evident that the Armenian territory of Artsakh, would no longer be part of Azerbaijan. After all, the constitution of the former Soviet Union was no longer in effect, and because of that, Artsakh was finally free to claim its independence. And that’s exactly what it did. The Azeris, of course, had a huge problem with that, and thru military force, they attempted to conquer Artsakh and attach it to their miserable country. However, as you observed, your country of Azerbaijan failed miserably, and was treated to a horrible beating which it still hasn’t recovered from, after nearly twenty years.
Hey Karim, you continuously say that your Islamic Crescent terrorist nation of Azerbaijan is going to liberate Artsakh. But yet, during this whole entire time, your coward country hasn’t been sending any soldiers across the border. The only thing that those coward Azeri soldiers are capable of doing, is engaging into sniper gunfire while hiding behind their doghouse on the other side of the border. By the way Karim, let me remind you again that if a war breaks out, the Artsakh Defense Army will easily wipe out Azerbaijan’s oil and gas pipelines within two days. This explains the reason why that coward terrorist leader of yours, President Aliyev, is so frightened to start a full scale war with the Armenians.
Hey Karim, how can you possibly believe that the Azeri people existed a thousand years ago? The words,”Azeri”, and “Azerbaijan”, did not come into existence until 1918. Prior to 1918, the people who inhabited present-day Azerbaijan, were called Tatar Muslims, the descendants of the Turkish savages who arrived in Azerbaijan from central Asia, back in the eleventh century.
“Stuff like this gets played out millions of times in Western countries on a regular basis yet not a single one of them is turned into a major “political matter”. Self-destructive Armenian natives, naive Diasporans (with major attitudes nonetheless) and Western funded propaganda outlets such as Hetq, Radio Liberty, Lragir and ArmeniaNow are turning these otherwise normal criminal matters into an issue of life and death. Guess what folks, every single one of Armenia’s neighbors live just as bad if not worst than the average Armenian – yet it is only the Armenian that freaks out and seeks to abandon his homeland. Why is that? Could this be a genetic/cultural problem? Could this be a result of Western psy-ops? Perhaps both. We Armenians are not yet ready for full independence. The most revealing part of all in this story is that Arto got had by a Diasporan Armenian with ties to the ARF.”
Bravo Harutik, you spoke my mind WORD FOR WORD! History has shown us that we are indeed our biggest enemy. Thank you for your honesty and intellectual clarity! But don’t expect the typical Armo to understand you.
Talk about setting low expectations for Armenia. Let’s not talk about these. Let’s look the other way. The way it is is like everyone else and it’s good enough for our brothers and sisters in Armenia, where we don’t actually live.
Amazing how one Armenian cheating another out of thousands of dollars, and having this play out all the way to the top of government is not self-destructive and acting like our own worst enemy, but pointing these things out is some how hurting Armenia. Or self-hate. Or being an enemy to the Armenian nation. Abso-bleepinlootly-amazing!
You guys either do not like to see or read anything critical of the problems going in Armenia or you’re just excusing it because your favorite man is in power.
{“ You see, gyavuroghlu, while corruption exists everywhere, in a democracy the thieves are held responsible.”}
{“ How many oligarchs have gone to jail in Armenia for stealing from the people?”}
(Vahagn // December 20, 2013 at 10:04 pm //)
Let us educate and debunk our քոչվորoğlu guest from Turkbeijan some more.
And as soon as the քոչվորoğlu can provide information about how many people responsible for the massive billion dollar fraud at the Pentagon, as reported by Reuters, have gone to jail, we will try our best not to provide any information to our Turkbeijani shill.
Here is some more education from the good old democratic USA, քոչվորoğlu:
[Contractor Fraud Runs Rampant in Hurricane Sandy-Hit Areas]
http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20131028/far-rockaway/contractor-fraud-runs-rampant-hurricane-sandy-hit-areas
{First, she forked over a $6,000 deposit. When the contractor wanted another $4,000 for materials, she obliged.
Then he abandoned the job without finishing.
He left mold-ridden walls and dangerously exposed wires. He installed fixtures he picked up in dumpsters, tossed from other damaged homes.
Another contractor told her it would cost roughly $23,000 to fix the shoddy job, said Wilkes, who is unable to afford the repairs.}
[New Orleans contractor fraud runs rampant]
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/27/contractor-fraud-runs-rampant/?page=all
{NEW ORLEANS | Herreast Harrison wanted to rebuild after Katrina and thought she did everything right – she hired a contractor who seemed kind and listened to Christian music on the job.
Months later, she claimed, he pocketed $57,000 and walked off with work undone, leaving a mess behind.
Miss Harrison said it took thousands of dollars more to put things straight.
Three years after Hurricane Katrina, complaints about contractors continue, swamping legal aid attorneys and watchdog groups alike. Victims are left coping with shoddy work, incomplete work and sometimes outright fraud}.
[Not One Top Wall Street Executive Has Been Convicted Of Criminal Charges Related To 2008 Crisis]
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/13/wall-street-prosecution_n_3919792.html
“Not One Top Wall Street Executive Has Been Convicted Of Criminal Charges Related To 2008 Crisis”
Repeat please:
“Not One Top Wall Street Executive Has Been Convicted Of Criminal Charges Related To 2008 Crisis”
Քոչվորoğlu: you were blabbering something about “….in a democracy the thieves are held responsible.”, Turkbeijani քոչվորoğlu ?
Have you been debunked and educated enough, քոչվորoğlu Turkbeijani nomad ?
Oh about that ‘democracy’ thing, nomad: go and preach democracy to your nomad cousins in Aliyevoglu Crime Syndicate Sultanate.
Avery,
Do you prefer that all these thefts and crimes go unpunished, or that something is done about it so that there is less of it? You’ve cherry picked examples, but it’s also about the overall level of crime.
Do you want to see more corruption in Armenia or less? And that’s the issue. Your childish responses are a red herring. Corruption is part of human nature. Wherever there are humans, you will find some form of corruption and abuse of power. What do you do to deal with it?
If you, or anyone else, is saying that corruption is ok and does not hurt anyone or the country, then there is nothing else to discuss.
[Avery // December 23, 2013 at 4:30 pm // “Not One Top Wall Street Executive Has Been Convicted Of Criminal Charges Related To 2008 Crisis”]
What time is it again? It’s time to debunk our buddy boy.
Let’s recap what we have done with our buddy boy so far. He posted some articles about fraud in the U.S. I kindly educated our gyavuroghlu that his examples actually involved in powerful people going to jail:
“William Dean Chapman … sentenced to 12 years in federal prison”
http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/09/Alan-Grayson-s-18-million-Loss-from-Being-Defrauded
“[Bernie] Madoff to be one of the first jailed investors of the 2008 market meltdow”
http://www.forbes.com/2008/12/12/madoff-ponzi-hedge-pf-ii-in_rl_1212croesus_inl.html
Of course, I then challenged our pro-regime apologist to name one powerful oligarch in Armenia who has gone to jail without falling out of favor with the regime. Well, our gyavuroghlu couldn’t do it, so he came up with some more irrelevant articles.
Let’s first look at the big picture to educate our buddy boy. Let’s see how the U.S. and Armenia compare in terms of corruption.
Here are the ranks of the countries in terms of corruption (the smaller the number, the better):
U.S.: 19
Armenia: 94
Let’s now look at the score (the higher, the better)
U.S.: 73
Armenia: 36
http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2013/results/
In other words, Armenia is doing worse than countries such as Zambia and Morocco. No wonder Armenians are fleeing the country.
Now, let’s look at some of our gyavuroghlu’s newer examples. We established that rich criminals such as Madoff did actually go to jail in the U.S. Why haven’t top Wall Street executives gone to jail? As our buddy boy’s own article explains, they haven’t violated actual criminal laws. Or, as stated in the article: “cases could not be brought against people merely for ‘bad judgment’”.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/13/wall-street-prosecution_n_3919792.html
And what is this “Pentagon fraud” that our buddy boy is so obsessed about? Let’s look at the actual Reuters article, not some bs secondary website:
“Reuters has found that the Pentagon is largely incapable of keeping track of its vast stores of weapons, ammunition and other supplies”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/18/us-usa-pentagon-waste-specialreport-idUSBRE9AH0LQ20131118
So, we are talking about wasteful accounting, not blatant and widespread bribe-taking as in Armenia. And what happens to those contractors and government employees in the U.S. who try to take advantage of this government inefficiency?
“Mariano was sentenced November 1 to 10 years in prison and fined $18 million.”
“Alexander in 2010 pleaded guilty to defrauding the Navy and filing false tax returns. He was sentenced to 75 months in prison”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/18/us-usa-pentagon-waste-specialreport-idUSBRE9AH0LQ20131118
So, the corruption in our buddy-boy’s examples are bad business decisions and government waste. Still inexcusable. Now let’s see what we have in Armenia:
“According to findings published on December 9 by the country’s human rights ombudsman, Karen Andreasian, bribe-taking is so rampant in Armenian courts that judges even use an unofficial price list for kickbacks.”
http://www.rferl.org/content/armenia-judicial-corruption-price-list/25197495.html
And what happens to these corrupt judges in Armenia?
“The ombudsman’s team says no judge has been brought to justice yet in Armenia for taking bribes.”
And finally, what are the results of all this for Armenia?
“Experts in the migration field warn that the outflow of people searching either permanent residence or employment opportunities abroad has reached a disastrous scale in Armenia. According to the National Statistical Service, 108,005 people left within the last quarter (June-September) who did not return.”
http://www.armenianow.com/society/50966/emigration_armenia_national_statistical_service
While the U.S. certainly is not perfect, but Armenians would dream about having that system with all its flaws than the utter lawlessness in Armenia. Which is why they flee the country.
{“Avery, you are so full of straw man arguments sometimes. “}
(Random Armenian // December 20, 2013 at 11:36 pm //)
Random:
The reason you have to resort to vacuous labels in desperation is because you are unable to factually and coherently refute my lucid arguments and cogent rebuttals.
I am “an online bully”.
I “cherry pick examples”.
The Patriot is a “red herring”.
I am “full of strawman arguments”.
My “childish responses are a red herring.”
Right: there is the gist of your rebuttals to my posts.
Quite elegant, wouldn’t you say ?
Kind regards.
Avery the Online Bully.
Avery,
I pointed out an example of an issue in Armenia where there should be less of, without saying Armenia should be more like country X, and you brought the USA and followed it with examples of corruption. Which by the way happen to be examples of people actually going to jail. You then scrambled to find other examples where people did not go to jail. Why didn’t you bring up Canada, or the Scandavian countries? Where there is less corruption and a very good standard of living?
Your response to my post regarding Arto was a straw man argument. And I would add knee-jerk reaction to that as well.
As I’ve mentioned it before, less corruption is better. Corruption is a universal issue. it needs be addressed and not let it fester and get worse. Most countries have laws on corruption and enforce it. Those who enforce it better are better off. Don’t you want this? People in other countries want corruption and fraud to be dealt with by their governments.
And I’m still waiting for you to clarify something. Are you ok with the corruption in Armenia? Are you saying it’s acceptable for what happened to Arto in Armenia? As well as other diasporans who are trying to help improve Armenia and get cheated?
How do you feel about the wall street thieves who went unpunished? Should they not be in jail? Did that not make you angry?
Armenia has many issues, and they need to be talked about and dealt with concurrently.
Accusing people who openly talk about things like corruption in Armenia of being anti-RoA is a form of bullying! We are not anti-RoA. Those in Armenia who are corrupt are anti-RoA and they’re hurting RoA!
Again, this is not a black-and-white issue where we live in a corruption free utopian democracy. It’s about less bad, more good and not staying silent.
This is the *real* gist of my post and you’ve been ignoring it.
I believe I’m being lucid in my arguments as well.
OOOKKKKK. Things are looking up for me:
Previously I had the following accolades to my name:
I am “an online bully”.
I “cherry pick examples”.
The Patriot is a “red herring”.
I am “full of strawman arguments”.
My “childish responses are a red herring.”
Two new commendations were recently added:
My response was a “knee-jerk reaction”
My response was a “form of bullying!” (with an exclamation mark this time: it’s like when you get a medal, but enhanced with a ribbon; a greater honor)
{“And I’m still waiting for you to clarify something. Are you ok with the corruption in Armenia?”}
(Random Armenian // December 24, 2013 at 1:19 pm //)
{“Amazing how one Armenian cheating another out of thousands of dollars, and having this play out all the way to the top of government”}
(Random Armenian // December 23, 2013 at 6:10 pm //)
Let’s make a deal, Random:
You show me where in that story in Hetq.am is there anything to suggest that {“…play out all the way to the top of government”}, then I’ll see if I can answer your question.
Again, just to be clear: show me which sentence in the story of one private Armenian individual cheating another of 1000s of dollars is there any involvement of any Gov agent or agency, let alone “top of government”.
Maybe its there, but I don’t see it.
See if you can point to the specific sentence or sentences that implicates the RoA Gov in that mess.
Not a proof, mind you: but just an allegation.
Show me.
Thank you.
Avery the Online Bully.
[Avery // December 27, 2013 at 4:29 pm // “You show me where in that story in Hetq.am is there anything to suggest that {“…play out all the way to the top of government”}”]
Here is some homework for you, buddy boy. Show us where Random Armenian wrote that it was the Hetq article which stated that corruption goes all the way to the top. The fact that Armenia is corrupt from top to bottom is a matter of common knowledge. The real problem in the story of Arto Tunçboyacıyan being ripped off is not the fact that some thug defrauded him, but that, unlike in a democracy, he has no legal recourse to achieve justice. And here is why:
“According to findings published on December 9 by the country’s human rights ombudsman, Karen Andreasian, bribe-taking is so rampant in Armenian courts that judges even use an unofficial price list for kickbacks.”
“The ombudsman’s team says no judge has been brought to justice yet in Armenia for taking bribes.”
http://www.rferl.org/content/armenia-judicial-corruption-price-list/25197495.html
And here is about corruption going all the way to the top (literally, as a ladder):
“bribe rates fluctuate within the following range — from $500 to $10,000 at courts of first instance, from $200 to $15,000 at the Court of Appeals, and from $10,000 to $50,000 at the Court of Cassation.”
You see, gyavuroghlu, in a democracy such as the U.S., where the courts are independent by design, the talented Armenian singer would have the option to go to court to sue the thugs. Not to mention filing a complaint that could result in a criminal conviction for the thugs. By contrast, in Armenia, where judges are pawns of the ruling elite, thugs prosper in Armenia. All the way to the top.
Ara’s comment has drawn heavy criticism and gushing admiration from many of us. Like it or not, it’s incoherent. If Ara fancies himself a writer, he might think again about whether he wants his posh-o English chums to see something as breezy and unbaked as his column. I think he has turned his back on good writing and clear thinking as well as Armenia, which will survive without his meager gifts.
One of the meatier points Ara seems to state is that there is much to be disappointed about in Armenia. You don’t say, Sherlock.
He makes reference to, and sets himself in opposition to something he calls a traditional Armenian set of communities, but does not tell us where they are, what their members believe or do, or how it is that he stands athwart them, Joan of Arc style. These “communities” are the false rhetorical device he sets up in order to portray himself as a rebel. Or something.
The most idiotic remark is Ara’s statement that Armenia has not given the world things sufficient to make the cut of great nations, like say England. Armenians and Armenia have made outsize contributions to civilization as he well knows. The modern state is effectively on a war footing, surrounded by hot and cold enemies, its economy as wracked as the other post Soviet states, but only more so given the threats of Turks, and its recent history is not so comfy either. Armenia lost about 40 per cent of her population in WW II, and its soldiers were the shock troops at places Ara maybe never heard of like Stalingrad and Berlin.
If a Turk had written this gibberish we would not praise him. Why do we applaud the same anti-Armenian bigotry merely because Ara presents it as rebellion? These insults are written by a young man wanting to strip off his birthright and family in public, as if they were filthy rags not up to the style of Saville Row.
Apo, not Ara, sorry.
excuse me my Armenian compatriots. RE: this mr. ahmet, is it not time to sweep him under some turkish carpet along with all the others of his kind hiding there. all the articles against his feeble points have been very well answered in an intelligent and factual way by all you people. what more does he want. please don’t return his post, he’ll go mad because he has nothing else to do.
one more thing, someone should remind this moron that the biggest u.s. air force base in turkey is sitting on Armenian land. the owners have “deed in hand” and it’s a matter of time before Armenian is spoken there.
I come back to re-read this article all the time. Something about it; I get it.
Wonderful article! I respect how you talked about the faults but your brought it back to how wonderful the ethnic and traditional factors are and that we as a group always try to flourish in other countries. Thank you for the positivity. It gave me hope that there are good people and wonderful Armenians out there too (: Harganknerov, Elizabeth Minasian
Well I am an Armenian, proud to be one for sure, but I am guilty Armenian, why? because I never put my foot on Armenian soil…why? again, because I am scared, I am scared to blow my image of my motherland by smallest negative comment or unloving attitude towards me when visiting my own traditional country. I am scared to hell not to hesitate that am I really an Armenian? no, I can’t be one, I was born in a neighbouring country of Armenia called Persia/Iran. a country accepted my heritage, religion and gave me opportunity to live, breed and study whatever ambitious thoughts and dreams I had in my mind, without discrimination. Then I suddenly decided not to live there, probably I thought I am a Christian and they are Moslems, what a ridiculous thought, Persians never wanted to Islamised us, never, and we know very well that THIS didn’t happen. But, going back to my guilt and embarrassment of never put foot on my ancestors soil , last year I broke the curse and travelled to Yerevan to see and experience myself …. I saw people kind, with high standard guest loving attitude, big long table full of traditional Armenian food , all was there…all, no complain…but did I go there for their food and measurement of their hospitality level, NO, I wanted to go beyond and find out what Armenia looked like from inside, not from the point of a diasporan member of community view…and I saw, struggle, I saw poverty , I saw some big belly Barons who smoked , laughed and bossed around the community, indirectly telling their country men and women, if you want me to look after you and your family, show me this $$$$$$, not Dram…sad, sad , sad…but saying this again did not interrupt my genuine feelings of my being an Armenian…bossing, bullying , killing, stealing, injustice and all those horrible human created crimes are everywhere, in USA, in England, in Russia, in everywhere on our planet…it wasn’t only in Armenia , but it is everywhere, the only difference is Armenia is the small version of other countries inhumaine attitude towards their own nation…I return back to USA from Armenia thinking, well I didn’t see anything unusual in Armenia which it doesn’t exist anywhere else…I still love my ancestral land, I will love it for ever, and ever and I will never turn my back on them…never.
John 3:16
Romans 10:9-10
Jeremiah 33:3