Thousands of articles are posted on the internet every day. But, very few make us fall off our chairs!
Last week I came across a shocking news item posted by the Turkish Forum, the largest website for Turkish news. It was titled, “Forgotten Ambassador in Sierra Leone Uses Armenian Genocide Resolution to Solve His Problem.” Here is the translated summary of that incredible article:
“In recent years, parliaments of several countries have adopted resolutions on the Armenian Genocide. In retaliation, Turkey has recalled its ambassadors from these countries. It has been revealed that some opportunistic ambassadors exploited this situation, by abusing their position.
“According to a Foreign Ministry announcement this morning, Orhan Emin Turkone, Turkey ’s ambassador in Sierra Leone for the past 12 years, has been fired for having lobbied for the passage of the Armenian Genocide bill in that country’s parliament.
“During a press conference this morning, the Foreign Ministry’s undersecretary, Ersin Ozbukey, explained: ‘Recently, it came to our attention that the so-called Armenian Genocide bill was placed on the agenda of the parliaments of Chad, Eritrea, and Djibouti. But, when we saw that this bill was unanimously adopted by the parliament of Sierra Leone, we started suspecting that something had gone terribly wrong.’ Ozbukey added: ‘We formed an investigative committee that uncovered some interesting, but disturbing information.’
“‘We confirmed that Ambassador Turkone had carried out lobbying activities in favor of the Armenian Genocide bill,’ Ozbukey stated. ‘Of course, this can’t be excused, but the ministry also has its fault in this affair. This man was abandoned and forgotten in a far away country. He got that idea, after [Turkish] ambassadors were recalled following the adoption of the genocide resolution by other countries. Twelve years is a long time,’ Ozbukey admitted.
“Ozbukey then provided the details of Turkone’s unbelievable actions in publicizing the Armenian Genocide in Sierra Leone. Ozbukey said that whenever the ambassador visited a bar, he would write on facebook: ‘We massacred the Armenians in such a nasty way.’ He told bartenders: ‘My grandfather alone killed 100-150 Armenians whose bones are in the basement of our home.’ The ambassador made up such falsehoods and lies. He basically said whatever came to his head. Sierra Leone is a small place. Word spreads quickly. No one had ever heard of either Armenia or Turkey. But, within a month, everyone in the whole country was agitated over this issue. People were dancing in the streets when they learned that the genocide was recognized. This shouldn’t have happened, but unfortunately, it did!
“Ozbukey explained that after this revelation, the Turkish government started paying more attention to the agenda of various parliaments. In order to avoid such situations in the future, instead of recalling ambassadors, ‘we are now considering the possibility of cutting off trade relations, until the resolution is removed from the parliament’s agenda.’”
***
Even though this article sounded too good to be true, the amount of detail and specific names mentioned in it led dozens of Turkish websites to post it, without realizing that it was a hoax. After learning that Turkey did not have an embassy in Sierra Leone, the Turkish Forum deleted the fake news from its website. It was also not true that Armenian Genocide resolutions were being considered by the parliaments of Chad, Djibouti, and Eritrea in recent months.
It is not known who concocted this elaborate hoax. Given the extensive amount of criticism directed at Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan within Turkey in recent weeks, the author could well be a disgruntled Turk with a sense of humor who decided to take a sarcastic swipe at his Don Quixotic leader. The article was accompanied by an authentic looking photo of three African officials along with a non-African individual at a signing ceremony. The photo gave the false impression that the latter was the Turkish ambassador to Sierra Leone.
It is not at all surprising that several Turkish websites fell for this ruse, as the government of Turkey has made a practice of recalling its ambassadors from France, Canada , the United States, and other countries for having recognized the Armenian Genocide.
Namik Tan, the newly appointed Turkish ambassador to Washington, was recalled on March 4 after the House Foreign Affairs Committee approved the Armenian Genocide Resolution. It was reported that he might stay in Ankara until after April 24. This is great news for Armenian American activists, as they can lobby Congress without facing any opposition from the Turkish ambassador during the crucial weeks leading to April 24, when he needs to be in Washington trying to block the genocide resolution in the House and persuade President Obama not to refer to the Armenian Genocide in his annual statement.
To the best of our knowledge, Tan did not lobby Congress for passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution, as did the fictional ambassador in Sierre Leone in order to take an extended vacation with family and friends back home. However, judging from Erdogan’s recent self-defeating statements, sometimes truth is indeed stranger than fiction.
Harut Sassounian
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real source of this news is here: http://www.zaytung.com/haberdetay.asp?newsid=5135
zaytung.com is a turkish satire news website…
LOL!!!!!!! What a bunch of wackos. There is a reason why they call Turkey the sick man of Europe. Although, they should be called the sick men of China/Asia.
Hye Garlicky Basterma EXACTLY, IT’S TRUE
Very interesting =D I read the article from the original source which is Zaytung.com . It is the most famous news portal parody in Turkey and claiming the source is unknown is nothing but a joke. =D It is also important to underline the fact that the author is not disgruntled at all but because of this news, there was a heading in a famous news paper, saying “Armenians took the joke serious!”.
I especially loved the part: the photo was authentic :D I dont blame anyone for not recognizing the Sierra Leone flag though. But just a tip, it is not THAT blue :D
Now just an endnote: I didnt kill anyone, and I dont like being accused for it. Neither would you. Trust me. =3 But digging the Turkish news even the news parodies for smearing and for blaming a nation and its people, this is just vicious…
you losers the website is just like onion, they make funny news and this is one of them:)
lol. busted!!
It’s disappointing to see people incapable of processing what they read will jump on every opportunity to attack a whole country. The source of the story, as blah blah already said, is Zaytung, a satire Web site that published stories of this kind every single day. The main source quoted in the story, Ersin Ozbukey, is quoted in every single story published on the Web site.
Unfortunately, this post will cause a flood of aimless comments filled with racist remarks like the previous two. Keep writing and speaking, cause your hate-speech will surely take you where you want to be, someday.
Turkish media serviced this article in a sarcastic way this morning.we are just laughing to that.the source as mentioned zaytung.com.this web site publishing news in an ironic way and that news is inspired by ambassador’s withdrawals of Turkey.sassounian’s article is based on a joke
LOL. Why so serious? :)
Origin of that news is from Zaytung. All the articles written there is only for fun (and apparently waiting for someone to take them serious lol).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe
http://www.chinahighlights.com/image/map/locationmap.jpg
It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant some people can be. Well, I have heard that it’s a bliss, so keep up the good work I guess! “LOL” indeed..
It is really pathetic how you believe in what a few nationalist papers in Turkey are saying! Sassounian’s column was never changed. In fact, it was the Turkish newspapers that believed the story and perpetuated it. Why don’t you read newspapers like Radikal (see its today’s issue, for example) that will actually tell you the truth about this story and about how idiotic nationalists believed and perpetuated this story…
The nationalists feed you crap and you swallow it without even pausing and thinking for a second.
Turks are very honest and good men. arent like you.
Yeah, Turks are very ‘honest’. For 95 years they reject to acknowledge honestly that they perpatrated henious crimes against humanity by exterminating several of ancient civilizations – Bysantinians, Armenias, Greeks, Assyrians, and others. Being nomadic Seljuk tribes from Central Asia they ‘honestly’ invaded their lands, and then as Ottomans destroyed their cultural, educational, and religious treasures, transformed Christian churches to mosques, sold Christian girls to filthy Muslim harems, converted Christian children to Islam. On top of that, Turks ‘honestly’ wiped out millions of Armenians. And Turks are so ‘good’ people that they have done so by burning and burying men, women, children, and the elders alive, ripping off pregnant women’s bellies, smashing infants heads against the walls or killing them with bayonets, organizing death marches, burning them in Syrian deserts’ caves or let them starve to death. Look, peoples of the world, what ‘good’ people Turks are… Caould eny other nation be better? FYI: Turks are internationally known as barbaric, cunning, and sly. Expand your knowledge about your savage nation by doing a research beyond Turkish sources.
“Les Turcs ont passé a tout est ruine et deuil.” (The Turks have traversed there, all is ruin and mourning.) — Victor Hugo.
Three things naught but evil work —
The locust the vermin, and the Turk. — Old Arab song.
why so serious son?
but the photo was realistic.:D:D
Harut writes that “It is not known who concocted this elaborate
hoax.” But why speculate it was a hoax and not check the sources?
All one would have to do is take a few of the names in the article and
type them into Google and it would’ve led you directly to Zaytung.
Since you apparently don’t know Turkish, you could’ve then gotten
someone who does explain the website to you and they
would’ve quickly understood from other articles that this is
clearly a satire newspaper like The Onion.
Instead you used this opportunity to speculate upon why someone would
create a “hoax” because apparently your imagination could not believe that it was in fact written by Turks.
This article doesn’t meet even basic journalistic standards and reads more like propaganda.
Dear “Armenian, and Proud” Guy,
I can totally understand how you feel about the issue. You are furious, disappointed, and seek for justice, right? However, you are off topic. If we are talking about a historical issue, we should look over it from a scientific methodology that historians use. Therefore, we should keep our own point of view at the back of our minds. It is true and we all accept that the Armenian were exiled in the WW I period out of Anatolia. Have you ever thought why? Have you ever attempted to dig the reasons out? Or have you ever put yourself in a Turk’s shoes? How might they feel about being accused for a genocide? Neither I nor you have not seen what exactly happened in 1915. We are talking from the perspective what we have been taught and supposed to talk. You are accusing my nation for killing children, pregnant women, babies etc. What do your claims exactly depend on? On some silly, manipulated, black-white photographs without references? Or on some bullshit quotations? I have grown up in Turkish education system and I have been taugth exactly the opposite you have been taught. The Armenian killed children, raped women, ripped off the bellies of pregnant women, burned villages down. They showed us the similar photos that you have been propagating on as the proof. There are also many famous quotations, jokes that insulting Armenians. Those quotations are not taught in schools, but the public knew them anyway. Should I use them as an item to support my thesis? No, because, they are bullshit. You also should not believe those bullshits you have just used. You have to understand that I feel the same pain you feel because my nation also lost almost 1 milion people during the wars between the years 1914-1922. For example, it is told me that my grand grandfather went to the war as a soldier during WW I and the Armenian invaded the village in which he was serving and locked up all the people in the village including my grand grandfather into a mosque and burned all down. We have never got even the corpse of him. Just a letter says he is dead. What can you say about that? or let me ask it that way: Should I accuse you for that? I do not accuse you for that. You should not also accuse me for what happened in a stupid war that I have never involved in. I am just asking you to understand the point that, there was a war in 1915, and both sides have prosecuted extreme violance each other. Turks were holding the authority power in their hands and they practiced it in the way of banishment. If the Armenian had the authority power, they would have taken the similar decisions and exiled all the Turks out of Anatolia. That is how politics work. So, we have got similar pain inside, we have to understand and respect to the pain we all feel. I respect your pain and sorry for all your losses. Do you understand and respect my pain and apologize for my losses?
Hey, “Human” and Proud Boy –
God forbid, I’d never try to put myself in a Turk’s shoes: I don’t want to become a nomadic savage, invader, genocide perpetrator, death march organizer, rapist, sly, cunning, and soulless mass exterminator, and the like. Oh, no, for Christ’s sake…
Let’s accept for a split second that none of us know what happened in 1915-1921 under the Young Turks, and even earlier in the 1890s under Bloody Sultan Hamid, as the world came to know this Turk. Let’s pretend that Armenian and Turks can be biased in their judgments of the past events. At this juncture, historical methodology, as you quite correctly remarked, comes forth, and one of the methodological tools in the hands of unbiased historians is a comparative study on the issue in the world archiveseyHeical too and repositories (note, not just Turkish archives, where materials pertaining to the Armenian Genocide have been destroyed and those that remain distorted to benefit the Turkish position, but other countries’ archives). There’s an abundance of materials in the British, French, German, Greek, Italian, Russian, and the U.S. archives to name the few. These archives contain clear, well-documented, and referenced materials about the Ottoman government-planned and government-executed genocidal campaign against the Ottoman subjects – the Armenians. For your knowledge, the International Association of the Genocide Scholars, that unites thousands of leading world genocide scholars, has already made an unambiguous conclusion: in 1915-1921 the Turkish government has committed an act of mass extermination of a specific ethnic, racial, and religious minority group – the Armenians. The acts of the Turkish government fall under the definition of the Genocide. If the Association’s conclusion is not enough, please add some 30 foreign parliaments and governments that accepted the fact of the Genocide perpetrated by the Turks, some 44 states of the United States of America, the European Parliament, leading international human rights organizations, scores of respectable historians, genocide scholars and international lawyers, as well as dozens of your own intellectuals who were expelled from Turkey for “insulting Turkishness,” that is for speaking the truth about the Armenian Genocide.
And I’m not surprised that you’re being taught exactly the opposite in your schools. In fact, your school children are still being taught to hate Armenians at an accelerated rate, more than ever. It’s come to the world’s attention recently that 12 million DVDs of “how the Armenians committed genocide against Turks” have been distributed among the schools to teach exactly the opposite. Because your government knows too well that it’s hard to sell to the Turkish public the fact that their founding fathers were essentially mass murderers and criminals. And it seems easier for them to continue to deny that the Genocide of Armenians happened rather than repent, apologize to the Armenians, and acknowledge the historical truth.
I have nothing to apologize to you, because you’re a government propaganda-brainwashed Turk believing, in contrast to the civilized world’s opinion and acknowledgment, that it was “the Armenians who killed Turks”. What a profound cynicism, ignorance, and impudence on the part of the Turkish government who, knowing the truth, disallows its citizens to even research and speak about the issue out loud by threatening to use Provision 301 of the Turkish Penal Code. Those who speak out the truth are either being expelled, or thrown in prison, or killed in the daylight in the centre of Constantinople, as Hrant Dink.
As for your “scientific methodology that historians use”, please read further and you’ll find out in preferably non-Turkish sources, that there was no war front in the provinces inhabited by Armenians in Western Armenia (that Turks transformed into “Eastern Anatolia”: you’re good at transforming everything non-Turkish into Turkish). No war was going on in the remote central and eastern parts of Turkey where Armenians resided in their lands for millennia. The fronts were in the Western parts, in the Balkans, and until 1917 in the remote Eastern part bordering Russia. Is this what you’re being taught in schools about the WWI? Poor, brainwashed people. Even if we admit there was a front crossing through the Armenian-populated towns and villages, what do innocent, unarmed, impoverished, defenseless women, children, and the elderly had to do with it that all were massacred in the most indescribable, barbaric manner, that is typically Turkish? What was their guilt?
The Genocide of the Armenians is not about war, which implies there were enemies, or about intercommunal violence, which implies there were ethnic or religious communities. It’s about the targeted, deliberate, government-executed annihilation en masse of an ancient civilization of the Western Armenians. And no, Christian Armenians are not savages who, had they had authority power, “would have taken the similar decisions and exiled all the Turks out of Anatolia.” We don’t have a wolf-like, undeveloped, uncivilized mentality like yours to mass murder human beings. I have nothing to apologize for your pain because my forefathers haven’t inflicted it on you by wiping out your civilization, exterminating your whole population, and depriving them of your historical homeland. I don’t have to apologize to you because Armenians haven’t mass murdered your nation. But YOU WILL, sooner or later. And it’s better be sooner than later, because you’d have a chance to show to the civilized world that you progressed a yota from being nomadic savages to becoming compassionate and repenting nation.
Sorry i couldn’t translate to English, I think lots of people know Turkish in web site, also lots of Turkish people writing and reading to this web site.
Bizim Ermeniler
Bahçelerde mor meni
Verem ettin sen beni
Ya sen İslam ol Ahçik
Ya ben olam Ermeni
Aşk bu, ferman dinler mi? Aynı pınardan su içerken eli eline değmiştir, gözü gözüne. Ne aşklar yaşanmış şu topraklarda, ne güzel çocuklar doğmuş. Ana tarafından şuralı, baba tarafından buralı. . .
Kırk çeşit kavim gelmiş geçmiş, hepsi ayrı bir güzellik bırakmış Anadolu’ya, bin çeşit birbirine benzemez fidan yeşermiş.
Yüzyıllardır bu toprakların suyunu, havasını paylaşan Ermeniler de çeşnimize çeşni katanlardan. Yemekleriyle, ezgileriyle, takılarıyla, sanatçı ruh ve becerileriyle bir güzel süslemişler dört bir yanımızı. Ülkemizin nakışlarında emekleri, duyguları, düşünceleri, ustalıkları var.
Türkiye’nin ilkleri
İlk Batılı anlamda tiyatro, Ortaköy, Hasköy ve Kuzguncuk Ermeni okullarında başlıyor. Agop Artovyan Türkçe oyunlar sahneleyen ilk tiyatroyu kuruyor. Sahneye çıkan ilk kadın oyuncu bir Ermeni, Aruşyak Papazyan. 1857’de hem öğretmenliğe, hem sahne oyunculuğuna başlamış. Garip rastlantı o da ilk müslüman kadın tiyatro oyuncusu Afife Jale gibi hastanede sefalet içinde ölmüş.
Türkiye’de çoksesli müziğin önderi, opera ve operetin, Şark Musiki Cemiyeti adlı ilk müzik derneğinin kurucusu Dikran Çuhacıyan. İlk Türkçe operayı, ilk Türk opereti “Arif’in Hilesi”ni de Çuhacıyan bestelemiş. Batılı kaynaklar Çuhacıyan’dan Türkiye’nin Verdi’si, Doğu’nun Offenbach’ı diye sözediyorlar.
Kirkor Sinanyan İstanbul’da ilk orkestrayı kurmuş. Yervant Oskan Efendi ilk Osmanlı heykeltraşı. Sanayi-i Nefise Mektebi’nin heykel bölümünün kurucusu. Dünya resim tarihinde ilk kez perspektifi kullandığı söylenen Thoros Roslin Rumkale, Tarsus civarından bir Ermeni.
İstiklal Marşı’nın armonisi
Mekteb’i Bahriye’nin ilk keman öğretmeni, Prof. Vahram Mühendisyan. İlk piyano öğretmeni ise, “İttihat ve Terakki” ve “Prens Sabahaddin” marşlarının bestecisi Harutyun Snanyan’dı.
Prof. Edgar Manas ilk Türk kadınlar korosunun kurucusu. Güftesiz olarak yapılan “İstiklal Marşı” daha sonra E. Manas’ın tashihinden geçerek armonize edildi. Bugün Bolşoy Balesi’nden, Viyana Flarmoni Orkestrası’na, ünlü cazcılara kadar tüm dünyaya “Türk Zilleri” adıyla zil satan, Zilciyan ailesi, Karadeniz kıyılarından gelip Samatya’ya yerleşmiş, Topkapı Surları’nın arkasında ilk zil yapımevini kurmuş. Torunlar, 1908’de ABD’ye göçmüş ve ailenin geliştirdiği özel karışımı hala kullanıyorlar.
İstanbul’da ilk çiçek satış dükkanını açan Bogos Karakaş’ın kızı Mari Luiz, sahneye çıkan ilk kadın opera sanatçısı ve soprano.
Türk dilinin ilk etimolojik (kelime kökenlerini araştıran) sözlüğünü Bedros Keresteciyan yazmış. Bedros Efendi’den (1840-1909) bu yana bu konuda başka yeterli yapıt henüz üretilmemiş.
Karl Marks’ın Manifesto’su daha 1887’de, Ermenice’ye çevrilmiş. İlk İngilizce basımından bir yıl önce! İstanbul’da bir yayıncıya verilmiş. Ancak yayıncı çekinmiş ve çevirmene kitaba kendi adını koymasını önermiş. Çevirmen kabul etmeyince basılmadan elyazması olarak kalmış.
İlk Türkçe mizah dergisi, Hovsep Vartanyan Paşa’dan (1852), “Boşboğaz Bir Adem”; 2. Abdulhamit ve Abdüaziz’in baskılarına karşı siyasal ve toplumsal olayları eleştiren Nişan Berberyan ve Harutyun Hekimyan Türk karikatürünün öncülerinden.
İstanbul’un nakışları
Bir de Balyan ailesi var. Kayserili Balyanlar. 18. ve 19. yüzyıl Osmanlı-Türk mimarlık sanatına damgalarını vurmuşlar. Saray mimarı olarak devlet merkezi İstanbul’u ve çevresini sanki baştan inşa etmişler. Balyanların yapılarında Doğu sanatının Batı Rönesans’ı ile uyumlu bir biçimde kucaklaştığı söylenir. Bu yapıların bir özelliği de dayanıklı olmaları. Hemen tümü h‰l‰ ayakta, İstanbul’un en güzel yapıları.
Dolmabahça Sarayı, Çırağan Sarayı, Baltalimanı, Yıldız Sarayı, Beylerbeyi Sarayı; Kalender Kasrı, Aynalı Kavak, Göksu, Ihlamur Kasrları, Validebağ Kasrı, Çağlayan ve Ayazağa Kasrı; Balmumcu Kışlası, Davutpaşa, Maltepe, Rami, Selimiye, Topçular, Taşkışla, Gümüşsuyu Kışlaları; Valide Camii, Nusretiye Camii, Ortaköy Camii, Üç Horon Kilisesi, çeşitli bendler, Terkos Tesisi, Tophane Saat Kulesi, Gümüşsuyu ve Yedikule Ermeni Hastaneleri, Beykoz Kösele Fabrikası, Akaretler’deki binalar, Darphane, eski Harbiye nezareti, şimdiki üniversite binası, onların yapıtlarından yalnızca bazı örnekler.
İlk Türkçe Latin alfabesini Kuyumcu Mazlumyan Usta, TBMM Müzesi’nde sergilenen altın plaket üzerine kazımış. Atatürk’ün ünlü, “K. Atatürk” imzası da bir Ermeni’nin elinden çıkmış. Robert Kolej’de kırk yıl güzel yazı hocalığı yapan Vahram Çerçiyan’dan da imza örneği istenmiş. Gelen beş örnek arasında Çerçiyan’ınkini seçmiş Atatürk.
Türker soyadının yakışığı
Osmanlı döneminde, bakanlık, müsteşarlık, elçilik, Şuray’ı Devlet üyeliği, milletvekilliği yapmış Ermeniler, otuza yakın önemli bakanlıklarda bulunmuşlar. Haydarpaşa Garı’mızın açılış konuşmasını bile Bakan Bedros Halaçyan yapmış.
Berç Keresteciyan Cumhuriyet döneminin ilk Hıristiyan milletvekili. Osmanlı Bankası Genel Müdürü ve Hilal-i Ahmer (Kızılay) Cemiyeti İkinci Başkanı. Atatürk’e Bandırma vapurunun Boğaz’dan çıktıktan sonra batırılacağı haberini iletmiş, önlem alınmasını sağlamış. Bütün milli mücadele dönemi boyunca yalnız sağılık malzemesi değil, ihtiyaçları olan her şeyi ilaç sandıkları içinde Anadolu’ya göndermiş.
Atatürk, Türker soyadını vermiş kendisine. Anlamlı, Atatürk’ün “Türk”ten ne anladığını görme açısından. Keresticiyan Taksim’deki Cumhuriyet Anıtı’nın komisyonunda da yer almış.
Fransız vapur kumpanyası müdürü Kalçi Efendi, “Sizi haklı buluyorum, mücadelemizin büyüklüğünü biliyorum. Bu toprağı severim. Ailem burada yaşadı ve mutlu oldu. Son vapur da elimden çıkıncaya kadar sizinle çalışacağım” diyerek. M. M. Teşkilatı’na (Mahsus-u Milli Teaşkilatı) destek olmuş. Pandikyan Terziyan ve Hogasyan efendiler de teşkilatta görev alıp, Anadolu’ya yardım etmişler.
Daha sayamadığımız, unuttuğumuz veya bilmediğimiz çok ad var mutlaka. Bir çok “ilk”i getirmişler. Başımıza örttüğümüz yazmadan, operasına kadar. Bir Toto Karaca (Felekyan), Alis Manukyan, Elize Binemeciyan, Nubar Terziyan, Kenan Pars (Kirkor Cezveciyan), Asu Maralman, Hayko, Garbis Zaharyan (milli boksör), Anta Toros, Aram Gülyüz, Agop Arat, Vahram Yavru (Balkan Tenis Şampiyonu). Bir Onno Tunç, Garo Mafyan, Ara Güler, Pars Tuğlacı olmasaydı, Türkiye’de çok şey eksik olurdu.
Paskalya çörekleri, Ramazan pideleri!
Ani İpekkaya, 25 yıldır tiyatro sahnelerinde. Babası Ermeni, annesinin bir tarafı Arnavut Rum, bir tarafı Rus. Ani bir Türk’le evlenmiş. Asaf Çiğiltepe nikah şahitleri. Bir yıl sonra açıklamış ailesine. Sadece nikah cüzdanını görmek istemişler Ani İpekkaya’nın. Ne de olsa kız çocuğu.
Ani İpekkaya’nın kızı nereli? Bilmece gibi. Çocukluğu Bakırköy’de geçmiş. Kocaman ıhlamur ağaçlarının olduğu bir mahalle. Mahallede Karamanlı Rumlar, Ermeniler, Türkler otururmuş. Yılbaşını, noeli, bayramları konu komşu hep birlikte kutlarlarmış. Paskalya’da paskalya çörekleri, Ramazan’da pastırmalı pideler. Evlerinde namazlı niyazlı iftar açılırmış. Mahallenin tüm çocukları, Türk’ü Rum’u, Ermeni’si bağırırmış kandiller yanınca.
“Balıklı Rum mezarlığına giderdik yortularda, piknik yapmak için. Dolmaları sarar, bütün mahalleli hazırlanırdı. Herkes ölülerine dualar okurdu. O birlikteliğin duygusallığını h‰l‰ yaşıyorum. Ailem Van’dan gelmiş. Dedem Çanakkale’de İngilizlere karşı savaşmış. Annem burada mutlu oldu, mezarı burada. Bayramda kapıma gelen çocuklara mendil vermek istiyorum. Hiç ayrı gayrı bilmeden büyüdüm. Bu topraklarda Ermeniler ile Türkler birbirlerini çok sevdiler, aşık oldular, kız aldılar, oğlan verdiler. Kayıpederim Elazığ’ın Palu ilçesindendi. Sulu bulgur köftesine glorik derdi. Ermenice ‘yuvarlacık’ demek.
“Şimdi bir olay oldu mu, sanki etime değiyor.”
Yılların sinema sanatçısı Kenan Pars, yani Kirkor Cezveciyan’ın annesi Beşiktaşlı, babası Balatlı, beş yüz yıllık İstanbullu Ermeni. Dedesi Ohannes’in elinden çıkmış, Yıldız Sarayı’nın avizeleri. Kenan Pars’ın kızı “Müslümanla” evlenmiş, torunu da “Müslüman.”
“Müslüman diyorum, çünkü hepimiz Türkiyeliyiz. Bin arkadaşımdan dokuz yüz doksan dokuzu Müslümandır. Aynı fasulyeyi, dolmayı yemişiz yıllardır” diyor Kenan Pars. Kendini çok duygulandıran Balıkesir’deki askerlik anısını anlatıyor. “Ali Bey diye bir komutanın emir eriydim. Karısı bir gün ‘paskalyada Ermeni aileler ne pişirir, yerler’ diye sordu. Zenginlerimizin sofrasında uskumru dolması, midye dolması, paskalya çöreği, kırmızı yumurta olur dedim. Paskalya geldiğinde ‘Oğlum gel beraber aile yemeği yiyelim’ diye beni çağırdı. Masada, hem de Balıkesir’de uskumru dolması, midye, kırmızı yumurta ve paskalya çöreği vardı. Ben sevincimi, acımı paylaştım bu insanlarla. Biz dostuz, kaynaşmışız. Bu düşmanlık nereden çıktı bu kadar yıl sonra?”
Bizim “memeket” nasıl?
İstanbul’da Marmara adında bir Ermenice gazete yayımlanıyor. Gazetenin sorumlu müdürü Rober Haddeler Akşehirli bir aileden geliyor. “Ben bir Anadolu çocuğuyum” diyor. “Türk Ermenileri vatanlarına bağlılar. Birinci Dünya Savaşı’ndan sonra, aileden geri kalanlar annem, babam ve amcamın bir kaç kızı Suriye’ye göç etmişler. Ancak sonra tekrar Türkiye’ye dönüp İstanbul’a yeleşmişler. Şimdi Anadolu’da kalan Ermenilerin sayısı 5 bini bulmaz. Anadolu’da yaşayanların Ermenilerle pek ilişkileri yok. ‘Duvardaki Kan’ gibi dizileri seyredenler ne düşünecekler? Sanki bütün Ermenilerle, bütün Türklerin arasında düşmanlık varmış duygusuna kapılacaklar.”
Ani İpekkaya’nın Elazığ’ın Palu ilçesiden kayunpederinin sevdiği “Glorik” köftesi, Erzurum’un bar’ı (dans), rakı sofralarının çarmakçuru (aslan sütü), Eğin’in güzelim ezgilerideki klarnet, kargir (taş ve kireç), bızdık, kodaman, torba, haç, örnek. Kaynaşmış gitmişiz işte!
Son 10-15 yıl içinde birkaç bin Ermeni vatandaş İstanbul’a göç etmiş. …nemli bir bölümü Birinci Dünya Savaşı’ndan sonra dışarıya göç etmek zorunda kalmış. Çocukları buralarda doğup büyümüşler. Analarından, babalarından onların yaşamış olduğu toprakların güzelliğini dile getiren öyküler dinliyorlar. “Oranın suyu başkaydı, havası başkaydı: Ah sen bir de bizim oradaki dağları göreceksin.” Rober Haddeler’e göre bu, çocuklarda sıla özlemine, belki de biraz tepkiye yol açıyor.
Haddeler, son elli yıllık devrede Batı Ermeni edebiyatından söz ediyor. Ana temalarından biri Türk Ermenilerinin vatan olarak bildikleri topraklara özlem duyguları.
Gurbet elde de birbirimizi buluruz
Dışarıya göç edip yerleşenlerin hiç biri Batılı olamamış. Doğu’nun geleneklerini h‰l‰ südürüyorlar. Konukseverlikleri, sıcak aile ilişkileri, sosyal yaşantıdaki bağlılıkları. “Giderken götüreceğin en iyi hediye, kolunun altına sıkıştıracağın bir rakı şişesidir. Oraların konyağını, viskisini bir türlü benimseyemezler” diyor Haddeler. On beş yıl önce gazetede çalışan bir arkadaşları Amerika’ya gitmiş ve Amerikalıyla evlenmiş.. “Çok sevdiğim, en iyi arkadaşım” diye mektupta söz ettiği kişi çıkmış gelmiş. Bir Türk! “Orada da birbirlerini buluyorlar” diyor Haddeler.
“İnsanlar arasındaki bazı tepkiler çok çabuk dostluk duygusuna çevrilebilir. En ufak bir jestle tersine dönüşebilir. İki kişi karşı karşıya gelince her şey unutulur. Burada Ermenice gazete çıkarıyorum. On kişi çalışıyor, dördü Türk.
“Bu ASALA’nın filan yöneticileri, başındakiler, Ermeni değil mutlaka. Kanıtlayabilmiş değiliz, ama böyle. Onlar bazı şeyleri kullanıyorlar.”
Keşke devlet adamları da sanatçı olsa
Değil Türkiye’de, düyada sayılı 40 yıl süren müzik toplulukları. Dedeleri Kevork Aslanyan 50 yıl İstanbul Patrikliği yapmış. Üç kardeş abileri Vahakn’ın ölümüne kadar kırk yıl oda müziği yapmışlar. Vahakn, Devlet Senfoni Orkestrası ikinci keman grupları şefiymiş ölene kadar.
Varujyan, 51 yıldır piyano çalıyor. İstanbul Şehir Operası’nın kuruluşunda görev almış. Şimdi emekli, Kurtuluş’ta mütevazı bir evde piyano dersleri veriyor. Evin yarısını dededen kalma antika bir büfe, diğer yarısını piyano kaplıyor. Duvarda, yine dededen kalma madalyalar.
“Geçenlerde Patrik’in Atatürk Kültür Merkezi’nde jübilesi vardı. Devlet Opera ve Balesi’nde sahne amiri olan Asım Bey’le karşılaştım. 23 yıldır birbirimizi görmemiştik. Dakikalarca sarıldık. Yanan Tepebaşı Tiyatrosu’nda geceleri saat birlere kadar beraber çalışırdık.”
“Ermiş millet”
“Müzik, güzel sanatlar, insanları öylesine kaşnaştırır ki! Keşke devlet adamları da sanatçı olsalar” diyor Aslanyan. Karısı Alis, “Müziğe meleklerin dili derler” diye ekliyor. Madam Alis, Üsküdar Amerikan Kız Koleji’nde okurken okul doktoru Muhittin Bey’miş. “Kızım biz size neden Ermeni diyoruz biliyor musun? Ermişten gelir. Ermeni milleti ermiştir de ondan” der, sevgiyle takılırmış.
Varujyan Aslanyan’ın gücüne giden bir şey var. “Niye haberlerde ‘Ermeni katil veya katil Ermeni’ diyorlar? Katil bilmem kim deseler ya, her cinayeti işleyen gibi.”
…yle ya o adamın özelliği insan öldürmesi. Ermeni olması değil! “Niye hepimize mal ediyorlar?” diyor Aslanyan, ince sanatçı duyarlılığıyla.
“Niye kötü haberler kocaman verilir de, iyilerden söz edilmez?” Abraham Bodurgil, Beyaz Saray Türk Kütüphanesi Müdürü. 2000 kitaplık Atatürk bibliyografyasını hazırlamış. Aslanyan, TV’de haber verilirken Bodurgil’in adının anılmadan geçilmesini anlayamıyor haklı olarak.
Madam Pamuk, h‰l‰ yıllar öncesindeki gibi alımlı. “Bu toprağın insanlarıyız. Havasından, suyundan vazgeçemem. Başka yerlerde yaşayamam, ama bir Türkle çok rahat paylaşırım her şeyimi. Acılarım oldu, en yakın ilgiyi Türk arkadaşlarımdan gördüm. Sıcak bir millet. Çıkın Nordik’lere, soğuk ırk. Bizim gibi olamazlar.
“Bir şey olacak diye yüreğim hop hop atıyor. Nasıl başladı, nasıl biçimlendi aklım almıyor. Bazen aile içinde kavga olur, iki kapı komşu kavga eder. Biri der ki, ‘ben haklıyım’, öbürü der ki ‘ben’. Ama ortada bir gerçek vardır. İkisi de kabul etse. Niye çocuklarımız böyle şeyler duyarak büyüsünler? Sarayları, tiyatroları, Türkçe grameri bile birlikte yapmışız. Niye bunlar yeteri kadar hatırlanmaz? Agop Martayan’a, Atatürk, Dilaçar soyadını vemişti. …ldüğü zaman gazetelerin çoğunda ufak bir haber oldu.”
A nokta Dilaçar!
Agop Martayan, Atatürk’ün verdiği soyadıyla Dilaçar, sonraları basında geçen adıyla sadece A. Dilaçar. Devekuşu misali. A nokta Dilaçar! Gedikpaşa’dan Boyacıköy’e taşınınca, en yakın okul Robert Kolej’de okumuş. Birinci Dünya Savaşı’nda Kafkas Cephesi’ne gönderilmiş. özellikle Ermeniler ve Kürtler Rus Cephesi’ne gönderiliyorlar. Martayan da Şam’a gidiyor. Atatürk’le ilk orada karşılaşıyor. Kafkasya’dan gelen bir Ermeni subay ve kaçmamış. Atatürk’ün dikkatini çekiyor, orada kaçmayan adam burada hiç kaçmaz diye, bir hafta izin veriyor. Savaştan sonra İstanbul. Her bunalımlı dönemde, önemli olayların ardından azınlıklar arasında göçler oluyor. Sofya’ya göç ediyor Martayan ailesi. Türk dili ve kültürü üzerine çalışmalarını orada da sürdürüyor. Orhun Yazıtları’yla ilgili bir yazısı Cumhuriyet gazetesinde yayımlanıyor. Atatürk, Türk Dil Kurultayı’nın toplantısına onun da çağırılmasnı istiyor. Göç edenler vatandaşlıktan çıkarılıyor, gittiği yerin vatandaşı da olamıyor. Elinde bir Nasen belgesi var Martayan’ın. Atatürk’e durum anlatılıyor. “Davetlidir gelsin!”
Sofya Konsolosu tatil demiyor, pazar günü Vitoşa Dağı’na çıkıp Martayan’a haber veriyor. Pazartesi konsoloslukta, pasaportu olmadığı için Nasen belgesinin üstüne vize damgası atılarak sorun çözülüyor. Ama konsolosun aklına pek yatmadığı için eline ayrıca “gerekli kolaylık gösterilsin, Atatürk’ün özel davetlisidir” diye bir mektup veriliyor.
25 Eylül 1932’de 1. Türk Dil Kurultayı’na katılıyor. Türk diline önemli katkıları olan İstepan Gurdikyan, Kevork Şimkeşyan da özel çağrılı. Dilaçar’dan Türiye’de kalması isteniyor. TDK’nun başuzmanlığına atanıyor. 1979’da ölene kadar da orada görev yapıyor. Liselerde, fakültelerde öğretmenlik yapıyor. İnönü Ansiklopedisi’nin kurucularından ve redaktörü.
Oğlu Vahe Dilaçar’la konuşuyoruz. Türkçesi tertemiz. Belki Ermenilerin dil öğrenme yeteneğinden, belki de babadan miras.
“Bütün yaşantımız, Atatürk’ün yaşantısı ile ilgiliydi” diyor oğul Dilaçar. “İstanbul’a gideceği zaman biz de taşınırdık. Eski cephane sandıklarının içine kitaplar konur, özel trenle giderdik. Akşam 6-7 gibi köşkün arabası gelir, yaver babamı alır gider, ertesi sabah getirirdi. İlk başta annem ürkerdi. Niye alıp alıp götürüyorlar diye. Yaver, ‘Korkmayınız, aldığımız gibi getiririz’ diye şakalaşırdı.”
Antranik Paşa’ya Atatürk’ten saygı
Atatürk’ün sofrasında sürekli, arkadaşları, bilim adamları ve tartışmak istediği konuyla ilgili uzmanlar oluyor. Bir kez bir kelimenin kökenini tartışmak üzere Rumca bilen birinin çağrılmasını ister Atatürk. Rum Zografyan Lisesi’nden bir öğretmen davet ediliyor. Hitler’den kaçan Musevi bilim adamları da sık sık sofranın konukları. O akşam tartışma bittikten sonra herkes sırayla bir şeyler yapıyor. Alman profesör Almanca bir halk şarkısı söylüyor. Rum öğretmenden Rumca bir şiir okuması isteniyor. Yunan edebiyatından, klasiklerden bir şiirdir beklenen.
– “Ben Türk’üm, yaşasın Türkiye”
Atatürk’ün kaşları çatılıyor. Oysa Rum olduğu için sofraya çağırılmış.
Agop Dilaçar bir Ermeni marşı söylüyor. Kafkas cepphesinde, Osmanlılara karşı savaşan Antranik Paşa’nın adının da geçtiği bir marş. Sofrada bir gerginlik, fısıldamalar. Atatürk uyarıyor. “Bu marşla insanlar inananarak ölüme yürüdü. Saygıyla dinleyiniz.”
O kadarından vazgeçtik, yıllar sonra, Türk Dil Kurumu bilimsel kıstaslarla değil, sadece Ermeni olduğu için bir Pars Tuğlacı’nın üyeliğe kabülünü reddediyor. “Başımızda bir tane var zaten o yetiyor” deniyor. Agop Dilaçar’a ölene kadar pasaport vermemişiz.
“Olaylar olduğunda arkadaşlarımız, dostlarımız bir şey söylemiyor. Ama ne düşünüyor acaba diye tedirgin oluyorum” diyor Vahe Dilaçar. “Dışarıdaki Ermeniler de çeşit çeşit. Ama, ASALA’nın amacı başka. Buradan kalkıp kim gider oralara, dışarıdan da kimsenin gelip yerleşeceğini sanmıyorum. Savaş durumu, iki taraf da birbirine aynı şeyi yapmıştır. Tarihte olanları unutup yeni bir dünyada yer almak gerekir. ‘…zür dilerim, hatalı davranmışım’ tavrı çok şeyi çözebilir, olanları haksız kılar. Zor ama niye olmasın!”
Niye olmasın?
Kapıları çalarken içimizede bir tedirginlik. Ermeni lafını yuvarlayarak, konumuzu açıklamaya çalışıyoruz. Hani, acaba alınırlar mı? Kırar mıyız diye. Ama gerçekten biz bize benziyoruz. “Bizim Ermeniler” dost, sıcak insanlar, çok şey paylaşıyoruz. Dile kolay, yüzyıllarca emek vermiş, taş üstüne taş koymuşuz, mendil kenarına oya işler gibi birlikte göz nuru dökmüşüz bu “memlekete.”
Atatürk’le dans eden Ermeni
– Nasılsın kızım?
Genç kız alımlı, dimdik elini sıkar Atatürk’ün, yanıt verir:
– Teşekkür ederim efendim, siz nasılsınız?
Celel Bayar telaşla uyarır,
– Eğil, eğil elini öp. Hiç siz nasılsınız denir mi?
– Rahat bırakın kızı. Şimdiki gençlik böyle. Ben de öylesini seviyorum.
Ajda Pamuk, o zaman Martayan, Park Otel’de dansa ilk kez gelmiştir. Onun genç kızlığa ilk adımıdır.
Biraz önce ortalık karışmış, garsonlar koşuşmuş, tam karşılarında otuz-kırk kişilik masa hazırlanmıştır. Atatürk masanın başına oturur, göz göze gelirler. Biraz sonra yanındakilerden biri gelir, Antuvan Martayan’dan izin ister.Madam Pamuk gözleri ışıl ışıl anlatıyor: “Biliyordum zaten, bekliyordum çağıracak diye, uçarak gittim.” Hayrandır hem fiziğine, hem gücüne. Okulda hep arkadaşlarıyla konuşurlar.
Dansa kaldırır Atatürk, vals yaparlar. Sofrada iki saat boyunca Avrupa gençliğini, izlenimlerini konuşurlar. Türkçesin kutlar. Ayrılırken bir dileği olup olmadığını sorar. “Sağlığınız efendim dedim. Nereden bilirdim, bir süre sonra onu kaybedeceğimizi. Keşke bir anı isteseydim. Ama bu anı değil mi, yıllar sonra kapım onun için çalınıyor.”
Birbirinize sarılır, siz kardeşsiniz
1915 yılında ıstepanyan ailesi de diğerleriyle birlikte Adapazarı’ndan Simav’a sürgün gelirler . Eski, kullanılmayan bir yana yerleştirilirler. Altı ay geçer, yerli halkla hiçbir ilişki yoktur.
Bir gün küçük Torkom yalnız başına oynarken, çocuklar gelir. Ama o onlarla oynamak istemez. annesi hemen hanın kapısını açar, çocuklara içerideki manzarayı gösterir. Yanlarında getirebildikleri yok denecek kadar az eşyaların üstünde, açlıklarını uykuyla bastırmaya çalışan insanlar. “Büyüdüğünüz zaman çocuklarınızın böyle şeyler görmesini istemiyorsanız, birbirinize sımsıkı sarılın. Siz kardeşsiniz.”
Garnizon komutanı Marizaruhi Istepanyan’ın bu sözlerini duyar. Simavlılar sürgün Ermeni ailelerini paylaşıp, evlerinde misafir etmeye başlarlar.
İstepanyanlar, bu kez hüzünlü ayrıldıkları Simav’dan tekrar Adapazarı’na döndüklerinde kıymetli eşyalarını Türk komşularından bıraktıkları gibi alırlar. Anadolu’nun çok yerinde olmuş böyle dayanışma. Benzer bir anıyı da Avedis Mazmanyan’dan dinlemiştik. Eğin’in Apcağa köyünden sürgün giderken altınlarını Cemal Beylere bırakırlar. 18 yıl sonra geri döndüklerinde bohçaları hiç açılmadan, Rahime Hanım’ın sandığından çıkar. Bir gün Atatürk Adapazarı’na gelir. Simav komutanı Musta Bey karşılayanlar arasında Marizaruhi’yi görür, atatürk’ün hizmetini yapmayı kabul edip etmeyeceğini sorar. Uzun yıllar Atatürk’e hizmet eder Marizaruhi.
Saroyan çalmış, Yaşar Kemal söylemiş
“Bir sabah saat dokuz muydu neydi, kapı çaldı. Bir baktım ‘Ben William Saroyan’ diye girdi içeri. ‘Hoş geldin sefalar getirdin’ İstanbul’u gezdik beraber. Türküler biliyordu çok güzel. Sözlerini değil havalarını. Ben söyledim, o çaldı.”
Yaşar Kemal bunları anlatırken aklımıza üç-dört asır öncesinin halk ozanları geliyor. Ermeni alfabesiyle yazılmış, Türkçe elyazması halk şiirleri, hatta bir kıtası, mısrası ya da beyiti Ermenice şiirler, destanlar.
Asırlar geleneği bozmamış, Florya, Menekşe sırtlarında gecekondu mahallelerinde, Çamlıca tepelerinde, İstanbul’un sırtlarında, Yaşar Kemal sözlerini söylemiş türkülerin, Saroyan havalarını. Beyti Lokantası’na gitmişler. Saroyan kalkmak bilmemiş. Sonradan Beyti’yle ilgili bir yazı yazmış. Beyti h‰l‰ reklamlarında, kibrit kutularının arkasında kullanırmış Saroyan’ın sözlerini.
Saroyan’ın Bitlis’i göresi gelmiş. Çok küçükmüş göçtüklerinde, ama olsun. Fikret Otyam’la doğduğu yerleri görmeye gitmiş. …yle olurmuş. Bir Ermeni vatandaşımızın vasiyeti varmış. …ldükten sonra mezarıma bir avuç doğduğum yerlerin toprağını serpin diye. Oysa göç edeli kırk yıl olmuş. Olsun. Oğlu ta Amerikalardan gelmiş, bir avuç toprak için.
Avrupa’nın, Amerika’nın bazı kentlerinde Türkçe konuşmaya çekinirmiş insanlar. Sadi Koçaş’ın konsoloslukta çalışan bir arkadaşı söylemiş “Duydular mı hemen evlerine çağırıyorlar, bizden ayrılmak istemiyorlar. Onların konukseverliklerini istismar etmemek için, sokakta kendi aramızda bile Türkçe konuşmuyorduk.”
Şule Perinçek
Yazı, 2000’e Doğru dergisinin 12-18 Nisan 1987 tarihli sayısında yayımlandı
It is obviously clear who is actually close-minded and brainwashed from your insultive and offensive attitude. I do not even care in which parliament they decided on what. Historical issues should be discussed and studied in academy, not in parliaments. Although, I do not actually support the actions of our current government, I think they have practiced right policies on that issue so far. They lastly proposed to form a commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue altogether. In addition to that, they announced that we are ready to open all our archieve to that commission and asked you to open all your archieve also. Why do you insistently avoid to join in such a commission? Do not you trust enough to your so-called well-documented and fairly referenced documents? You have got to realized that your collocutor is Turkey. If you have problem with us, you should directly come and talk to us. Passing some legislative actions in some other countries’ parliaments is not the solution. Why do you need such protective actions of your big brothers like the US, France, the UK? Why do you turn the issue which is actually quite deep and serious into lobbying wars? For a final word, I am taking back my apology until you realize and apologize for what your forefathers did to my grand grandfather.
If Arab scolars find difficulty in analyzing ‘The Quran Almubeen’
I wonder how the Turks can analyze ‘The Quran’,
Because their writing changed from Arabic letters to Latin.
Persian letters are Arabic, so they know more and can analyze better.
Can any Turk give me an answer, why they changed from Arabic to Latin letters!Do they think they belong to Europe more than Islamic lands?
In “The Quran Almubeen” never mentioned you should kill the Armenians
Or force them to change their religion.
Written, “You have a religion- I have a religion” i.e, to say respect my religion I will respect yours—[“ Laka deenoon wa li deen”]
I ‘ve never heard any Arab has forced an Armenian to change thy religion.
I think forcing others to change their ethnicity, religion, language ( Turkification) are related to Turkish culture and nothing to do with Islamic religion.
Yes, Sylva, the reason for changing the letters to Latin could be to stay closer to European Culture which has been a real pain for the most, since people may have a hard time in terms of social life in a culture decorated with Islamic, Turkic and Western elements.
Though, it makes life easier. Having the same scales, weekend days, and working hours, letters etc. with almost the rest of the world. :)
Armenian and Proud person, for you, there is not much to say. You’re so full of hatred. I infer it as you would commit the same massacre if you had the chance, I know I would not. Keep in mind that I am not saying a single thing about what has happened. But regarding the political reasons, I have to point out that British, French, German, Greek, Italian, Russian, and the U.S you refer to as historical source countries, had and still have affairs in the region. So no comment is and will be unbiased on this matter.
But I suggest you reconsider your mindset. Regarding your words, directly insulting a group of people would go beyond imposing your ideas. Your outrage goes beyond the issue.
Unfortunately, all states have blood on their hands. Starting from the very defenders of this cause. You know who I am referring to. American, British, French…..and nevertheless, Japanese, Russian, Turkish, Somalian, Nigerian states killed, and they still do.
People should not!
I hope you come to your senses. You may defend your cause, totally fine. Some people may defend the otherwise. But with reason, if not, you will go unnoticed, cause the world is full of dimwitted already.
Sorry Istanbul, but Armenian people don’t know Turkish, in fact, it makes many of us sick when we hear Turkish. Could you give us a brief summary of your comment in any European language, please? English, French, perhaps? Thanks.
Human, and Proud, you write:
I do not even care in which parliament they decided on what. Historical issues should be discussed and studied in academy, not in parliaments
Well, let us test the truth of your statement then. The vast majority, overwhelmingly, of worldwide genocide scholarship agrees that the murder of 1.5 million Armenians beginning in 1915 by the Turkish government was GENOCIDE and fits all the formal, legal definitions of that word. The International Association of Genocide Scholars has repeatedly encouraged every government, including a specific letter in 2009 written to President Obama, to declare the systematic destruction of the Armenian people in Turkey beginning in 1915 GENOCIDE. So, do you accept the truth of scholarship as you claim? This commission is a blind, a bluff. All the scholarship overwhelmingly agrees. Except the handful in Turkey officially gagged by their government, and maybe one professor in the US who has been consistently exposed as a paid shill.
Human, and Proud
Here is the letter you can read from the INTERNATIONAL Association of Genocide Scholars. That means the whole body of genocide academics in the entire world. Let us see what “science” and “academic” scholarship you can accept.
http://www.genocidescholars.org/images/IAGS_Obama_Letter.pdf
To zuluguay:
Never in the Armenian history, that extends back for millennia before Christ, have we committed mass massacres as you forefathers have in late 19th- early 20th century against the Armenians. We would never commit the same massacre if we had the chance. Why? Because if we could, we would have done it for numerous times in our history, since in many historical periods we were conquered by invaders and fell under the yoke of the foreign rule. Have we committed anything of that magnitude being under the Ottoman yoke for almost 600 years? Give me examples if you can.
Hatred, you say? Yes, but not towards the Turkish people, but toward your coward governments that deny and distort the truth about the Armenian genocide for decades. What would YOU feel towards a hostile government had your whole nation be wiped out by it from their ancestral lands, and their rich culture and architecture destroyed or transformed into sheep yards in ‘modern’ Turkey? Travel around your country and see for yourself… Keep in mind, that it is so because of WHAT HAPPENNED. And what happened was not just a crime against the Armenians. Genocides are crimes against humanity. Maybe you wouldn’t commit mass exterminations, I don’t know, but your grandfathers DID. And by denying acknowledging the truth your government fuels suspicions into the Armenians and other civilized peoples of the world that you’ll do it again if you’re given a chance.
As for political reasons, please be aware that because Germany, Britain, and Russia had affairs in the region during the WWI, they indirectly instigated the Turks to commit the crime and no one of them protected the Armenians. Here’s one unbiased comment that I hope you’ll appreciate. But regardless, the archives of these countries do contain a plethora of well-documented and referenced materials undeniably confirming the fact of deliberate race extermination by the Turks. In fact, some of these countries, like Russia, accepted the fact of the genocide, and Britain has started deliberations on the issue in the parliament.
Please reconsider your mindset: some, not all of course, states have blood on their hands, yes, but many of them have ACKNOWLEDGED it: Germans apologized to the Jews, French apologized to the Algerians, Americans accepted their guilt against Indians and Blacks by enacting the Civil Rights Act, Russia accepted Stalin’s mass purges against their own people, Holy See of Vatican accepted mass wrongdoings during the Inquisition, the list goes on and on… It’s not about defending a single case because the case of the Armenians, just as the Jewish holocaust, genocides of Ukrainians, Cambodians, Rwandans, and Darfurians, represents a crime against humanity and not an individual war episode or an instance of intercommunal violence.
I hope you come to your senses and appreciate the difference and comprehend the reasoning underlying the international demand from Turkey to acknowledge its past.
JANINE,
I GOT CURIOUS ABT YOUR INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS. I CHECKED IT OUT.
INDEED THERE IS A PART ON THEIR SITE ON 1915 EVENTS.
I WONDERED WHAT THEIR SOURCES WERE. THEY HAVE TWO SOURCES : ARMENIAN NATIONAL INSTITUTE AND ARMENIAN RESSEARCH CENTRE.
HOW OBJECTIVE CAN THEY BE?
ONE LAST WORD TO EVERYBODY:
ON THIS SITE EVERYBODY COMMENTING FROM TURKEY HAVE A VERY POSITIVE ATTITUDE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND YOUR CLAIMS ON 1915 EVENTS.
WHY THE ARMENIANS ON THIS SITE ARE INSULTING PEOPLE COMMENTING FROM TURKEY?
AFTER ALL YOU(ARMENIANS) WANT THE TURKS TO RECOGNIZE THEIR MISTAKE OF 1915. THE TURKISH COMMENTATOR ON THIS SITE HAVE NOT PERSONNALY COMMITED THE CRIMES YOU CLAIM THEIR ANCESTORS COMMITTED. WHAT THEY DO IS TO TRY TO UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT OF VIEW.
WHY DON’T YOU TRY TO HELP THEM UNDERSTAND IT INSTEAD OF INSULTING THEM?
Look people…you are embarrassments. I am Armenian and grew up hearing Turkish, English and a mix of Armenian and Turkish. If you have a problem with that, it’s YOUR problem. Please stop insulting a language that your ancestors spoke for probably 900 years or more and stop insulting people you have never met. It’s juvenile and sad. I have been many places in the world and met many people, but none have been more hospitable, polite and welcoming to me than in Turkey. This is no joke…this is true. And, if you ever go to Turkey, it will feel as comfortable to you as an old blanket or shoe…like you’ve been there before in a dream. You should be glad you are not native American, who saw 20 million compatriots decimated by the Spanish, Portugese, English, French and Dutch. You should be glad you are not Irish…starved to death by their British lords, or Algerians, mowed down by the French. Heck, even my Jewish friends drive BMWs and Mercedes…can you believe it? If anyone should be hateful, it is them. Yes, of course…Armenians were treated horribly at the end of the Ottoman Empire. Examine this history, and you will learn exactly who did this and why. It was not the general Turkish population, it was a group of nutcases who worked in secret. They were not patriots, but criminals and murderers and their paid for their crimes. Now, it is time to move on.
To: AB –
I welcome your curiosity about the world’s International Association of Genocide Scholars. May it be a belated sign of Turks’ genuine interest in properly acknowledging their forefathers’ crimes against humanity and their government’s shameless denial of the crime or just a maneuver to be better prepared to continue to deny the internationally recognized fact of the Armenian Genocide perpetrated by the Turks, especially as they scent that yet another wave of genocide recognitions us rumbling? I wonder…
But I can still see the attempts to minimize the significance of the issue in virtually all its factors.
First, note the very first sentence of AB’s comment: “your(?!) International Association of Genocide Scholars.” Low lovely… As if the whole Association is flooded by Armenians. False. Whereas only Peter Balakin, i.e ONE Armenian scholar in in the Advisory Council.
Second, “There is a part(?!) on their site on 1915 events”. False. Out of 11 resolutions and statements made by the Association, 6, i.e. more than a half, pertain to the Armenian Genocide.
Third, I wonder where you wondered about their sources. Sources are references supporting a specific argument in a written work. Janine’s link was an Association’s president letter to U.S. President Obama. If you refer to RESOURCES section on the Association’s website, well, then that’s a different story. Typically, on organizations’ website there are Resources Sections, i.e. links to other organizations’ websites where readers can obtain additional information on a topic. Indeed, on the Association’s website there are “Resources on specific genocides”: Armenian National Institute’s and Armenian Research Center’s links. False is that the Association’s work and resolutions are not based on sources limited to Armenian National Institute and Armenian Research Center. These international academics have been involved in genocide studies for decades utilizing dozens of sources in archives and repositories, as well as witness accounts, whether in Armenia, Turkey, the U.S., Britain, France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Russia, and other countries. Looks more than objective to me.
One last thing, Armenians don’t have claims, they have demands for Turkey to acknowledge the historical truth and apologize to them for wiping out on of the ancient civilizations inhabiting the earth from Western Armenian provinces of Van, Bitlis, Sassoun, Sivas, Kharpert, Kars, Ardaghan, Diyarberkir (‘Tigranakert’ in Armenian), and many others. And they demand apology not for a ‘mistake’, but for heinous crime against humanity that is internationally called Genocide. If you feel anxiety in their comments, try to imagine for a split second what it feels being mass murdered in the most brutal Turkish way, starved to death, endure death marches, widespread tortures, deported and expelled from the homeland where Armenians lived for millennia long before the Ottoman Empire formed in only 14th century AD. Imagine also how it feels that mass murderers for 95 years deny their crime and use every arsenal in their hands to avoid responsibility. I hope then you’ll understand Armenians’ frustration.
Karekin – I think in some instances it may look as if commentators here accuse the Turkish nation, but in reality I know that Armenians mean their governments – both genocide-perpetrators and all subsequent denialist regimes, including the most recent one under Erdogan. We all know that it was their Hamidian and Young Turk governments, not the general public, that instigated the genocidal mass murder of the Armenians. But it doesn’t diminish their responsibility for the horrific crime as many Turk commentators here whom, as you say, we never met, continue to sing the old crap about ‘Armenians butchering poor Turks’. If these people are nice, as you say, why wouldn’t they first take a thorough look into a plethora of materials available in their own archives (for instance, the 1918 Turkish Military Tribunal’s verdict against Young Turks for perpetrating the Armenian Genocide) or in the Internet where there’s a wealth of unbiased and referenced materials (non-Armenian) pertaining to the crime of their governments? And you sound really embarrassing, dude, by daring to say this: “You should be glad(?!) you’re not Irish starved to death by their British lords, or Algerians, mowed down by the French.” Get a grip, dude… What’s wrong with you? What is it that Armenians should be ‘glad’ about? That the whole Western Armenian civilization has been wiped out in Ottoman Turkey? Virtually whole population of 3 mln people, churches, monasteries, educational centers, architectural marbles, agricultural lands, houses, personal property, wealth and money?! Why shouldn’t I be hateful just like the Irish, Algerians, and the Jews, when my grandmother’s whole family has been burnt alive along with the others in a church and she miraculously survived, being a little girl, through a wall niche? The history of those cataclysmic for Armenians years has already been examined by international scholars. And no, Turkish criminals and murderers have not paid for their crimes: many of the CUP executives-genocide perpetrators later appeared in the high-ranking echelons of consecutive Turkish governments, many others have been moved away from Turkey by the British to avoid punishment. Turkish crimes will be paid for when their government stops denying the historical truth and apologize to the Armenians, just as Germans did to the Jews, French to the Algerians, and Americans to the Indians and Blacks by means of the Civil Rights Act.
After that, and only after that will be the time to move on.
to istanbul:
couldn’t read the entire menu; but I’ll take a lahmajeun and shish kebab , medium rare please.
TO CDEFG AND MSHECI,
AS A HALF ARMENIAN HALF LEBANESE TURKISH CITIZEN LIVING IN TURKEY I CAN TELL YOU THAT I AM PROUD TO BE TURKISH.
FROM MY MOTHER’S FAMILY AND HER RELATIVES LIVING IN THE US I KEPT HEARING THE SAME STORIES ON 1915 EVENTS.
I PERSONALY HAVE MY OWN OPINION ON 1915 EVENTS AND I BELIEVE EVERYTHING HAS A REASON TO HAPPEN. AND PLEASE DON’T SAY THAT IT HAPPENED BECAUSE ARMENIANS WERE SMARTER THAN THE TURKS, BECAUSE SUCH ARGUMENTS ARE RIDICULOUS.
SOME OF TURKISH COMMENTATOR HAVE STATED THAT THEIR GRAND PARENTS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS AND I AM SURE THAT THIS ALSO HAPPENED. SURELY A FEW THOUSANDS TURKS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS.
MY TURKISH NEIGHBOOR NEXT DOOR HAS ALWAYS BEEN VERY NICE TO ME AND I NEVER FELT AN ALIEN. AND I REPEAT NEITHER MY NEXT DOOR NEIGHBOOR NOR THE TURKISH COMMENTATORS ON THIS SITE HAVE COMITTED ANY CRIME AGAINST YOU/ME AND YOUR/MY ANCESTORS.
THEY ARE JUST IN THIS SITE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND AND YOU INSTEAD OF TRYING TO HELP THEM TO DO SO YOU KEEP INSULTING THEM.
HOW CAN THEY ADMIT AND APOLOGIZES FOR SOMETHING THEY DO NOT KNOW ABT? DON’T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU HAVE TO EARN PEOPLE’S SYMPATHY IN ORDER FOR THE ELECTED POLITICIANS TO CHANGE THEIR POLICIES?
THE TURKISH NATION IS COMPOSED OF ARMENIAN, TURKS, ROMAN, TCHERKEZ, LAZSS, ETC… AND WE ALL LIVE TOGETHER.
ONE LAST NOTE ON HRANT DINK:
ARMENIAN COMMENTATORS HAVE EXTENSIVELY TALKED ABT HRANT DINK AND SAVAGE HIS MURDER. NOBODY IS TALKING ABT THOUSAND OF TURKISH PEOPLE WHICH HAVE WALKED SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE DINK FAMILY TO CONDEMN THE CRIME WHICH WAS COMITTED AND TO SUPPORT THEM.
APPROACH SUCH AS THE ONE DISPLAYED BY SOME OF THE ARMENIANS IN THIS PAGE IS KILLING THE SYMPATHY FELT BY TURKISH PEOPLE ON THE STREET AND IT DOES NOT HELP AT ALL.
I wrote
“Turkish Government lastly proposed to form a commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue altogether. In addition to that, they announced that we are ready to open all our archieve to that commission and asked you to open all your archieve also.”
and got no satisfactory answers yet.
just tell me,
Why do you insistently avoid to join in such a commission? Don’t you trust your so-called internationally accepted, fairly referenced documents?
Why don’t you directly come and negotiate it with Turkey?
Why have you turned the issue which is quite deep and serious into lobby wars?
Why do you need such protective actions of your big brothers like the US, France, the UK?
Just tell me why? And I will stop writing.
The reality is that outside of Turkey, the scholarly community knows the truth, but that’s also true in Turkey. I’ve heard it told to me multiple times there. The propaganda effort of the ultranationalists to bury the truth may appear to have succeeded, but just about anyone in Turkey can point to a vacant house and tell you it is an Armenian house, or that the govt got rid of the Armenians. Eventually, those at the top will have to drop the curtain and reveal 95 years of lies to their own people, and yes, apologize to Armenians all over the world. And then hopefully, this nightmare can wind down. In fact, if Turkey gets really serious, they should invite Armenians from all over the world to visit, not just Pres. Sarkisyan. It is not the Turkey of our grandparents’ horror stories, but the Turkey of their positive stories. Much of the negativity said here exists mostly in the minds of those who write it. They should all go to Turkey and experience it. Khachig did…and aside from the psychological trauma, it sounds like he had a very revelatory and perhaps, wonderful, experience in the lands of our forefathers.
To Mr. Zulugury and others
Why Armenians are unable to kill,
Because… they don’t have that wicked gene.
What you said is true
They don’t like to hear any Turkish name
Because their scimitars
Still shinning on our face.
We can still see our innocent ancestors’ fresh blood
Dripping from that faithless metal
On our Anatolian Land.
We don’t have hate
We respect every religion
We love every race.
Every spirit loves us
Because we are heartily honest
You can never change us.
We die with smile in our face
Because it stamped in our DNAs
No one can wipe our special gene.
One day an honest man told me:
You are European by your hard effort
Being perfectionist honest,
With an eastern passionate sense.
That always ignites our eyes
Shines from our deep clean heart
And clever brain cells.
We don’t kill,
Because we don’t think
If we can kill we will live
Our faith has ‘Gomidasian Grace’
And We don’t have to kill
As our hands birthed to build always.
Paint, write and like to grasp every language
To share agonies of every human race.
This is our poem to every one
Showing what is in our frank heart and true mind.
Every Turkish knows these facts well
For that reason you vanished
Our gifted soul without understanding
The true base!
Now Anatolia is an arid land
Full of dirt and destruction.
However our crosses are still praying there
Still shinning clean
Stays washed with our tears
Blowing from every corners of earth.
This what every Armenian every second
See their genocide and Remember with prayers.
To one God, who is your God and every one else.
Written Instantly
To: general koofta — Loved it, absolutely loved it! Dude, lol, burst in laughter…
To Karekin:
I can understand your psychological affinity to Turkey: your previous posts are suggesting that your parents might have escaped from the country and Turkish language was one of the languages they spoke. But please don’t generalize based on your individual experience. First, our ancestors have not spoken Turkish for probably 900 years or more, those who invaded Armenia and other nations in Asia Minor in the 11th century AD were nomadic Seljuks who at the time were in the process of settling down on occupied lands and yet to develop all characteristics of a nation-state, including the language. Although Armenian Major fell to their conquest, please don’t forget that Little Armenia, Cilicia, existed until the 14th century when it fell to Egyptian Mameluks and afterwards to Ottoman Turks. Our ancestors, therefore, lived under the Turkish yoke for about 600 and not 900 years. Many of them didn’t know Turkish: the family of my grandparents has escaped Turkish barbarism in 1915 from Moush and Kars, and they never spoke Turkish because they didn’t know it well at all.
I can also understand that when you visit Turkey they might show their hospitality with a typically Turkish emphasis on insinuation and appeasement, and you or Khachig might have had ‘a revelatory and perhaps, wonderful, experience in Turkey,’ but one needs to be real and sober-minded and present the issue in all objectivity. One cannot but avoid mentioning that along with Turkish hospitality and appeasement there exists also barbarism and intolerance towards ethnic, racial, and religious minorities, very similar to that of the Germans. From the one hand, this highly civilized nation has contributed heavily to the human civilization producing world-renowned scientists, musicians, architects, poets, writers, military leaders and statesmen. On the other, the same Germans have shown barbarity and uncivilized inhumanity towards the Jews, Slavs, Gypsies, and others. You may argue that those were Young Turks and Nazis, respectively, yes, but in contrast to the Turks, Germans have apologized to the Jews for their mass extermination by the Nazis, whereas the Turks for 95 years in a typically cunning and sly Turkish manner utilize all the arsenal in their possession to deny the crime that Young Turks have committed against the Armenians.
In this context, Karekin, I’m really bewildered by your statement that “it is not the Turkey of our grandparents’ horror stories, but the Turkey of their positive stories.” What is it that happened in the course of time that passed from our grandparents’ horror stories, read: after 1915-1921, that could qualify Turkey as ‘the Turkey of their positive stories’? Section 301 of their Penal Code now allows them to call Young Turks’ crime a Genocide? Those dozens of Turkish intellectuals who heroically raise their voice to speak the truth about the Genocide are not being imprisoned and expelled from the country? Those intellectuals of Armenian origin who invite Turkish authorities to open up and admit the guilt committed against the Armenians, like Hrant Dink, are not shot in the daylight on the streets? Or maybe 12 million pure disinformation DVDs describing ‘how Armenians butchered poor Turks en masse’ have not been distributed to the Turkish schools? Or the modern Turkish government stopped denying the truth of the crime against humanity that all previous governments were denying as well? Or their modern prime minister, in unison with the Young Turks’ murderous regime, hasn’t just recently declared that he’d deport Armenians from the country? Or even in this discussion forum, basically all Turkish commentators attempt not to understand our pain and frustration, but systematically advance their brainwashed propaganda that genocide has never occurred, despite the overwhelming historical, institutional, and legislative acknowledgement of the fact by nearly 30 countries of the world, the International Association of the Genocide scholars, 44 state legislatures in the U.S., the European Parliament, leading human rights organizations, historians, and international lawyers?
What is it that essentially changed in the Turkish society with regard to their denialist stance that can make me suspect for a split second that Turkey has become a country of ‘positive’ stories?
URFACI,
I CANNOT READ YOUR POST WITHOUT SMILING.
I WANDER WHO IS BRAINWASHED. MOST OF THE TURKS WRITING IN THIS SITE ARE TRYING TO SHARE YOUR PAIN AN SOME EVEN APOLOGIZING.
YOU ON THE OTHER HAND, ARE TRYING TO WARN A FELLOW ARMENIAN ON NOT GETTING SOFT AND REMEMBERING WHO THE TURKS ARE.
IN MY VIEW (I KNOW IT FOR A FACT), ARMENIANS ARE BRAINWASHED TO HATE THE TURKS AS A RACE. WHAT THE COMMENTATORS FROM TURKEY OR THE TURK FROM THE STREET DID TO YOU?
I REPEAT WHAT I SAID EARLIER. FOR OPINIONS AND POLITICS TO CHANGE IN TURKEY YOU HAVE TO WIN PEOPLE’S SYMPATHY.
YOU ARE NOT GOING TO DO THAT BY INSULTING THE TURKS AS A RACE WITHOUT DISTINGUISHING EACH AND EVERY INDIVIDUAL.
To: “Human” and Proud
You wrote: “Turkish Government lastly proposed to form a commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue altogether. This is a wrong, misleading statement.
Article 2 and Article 3 of the Protocol on Development of Relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey clearly states:
2. Agree to conduct regular political consultations between the Ministries of Foreign Affairs of the two countries;
implement a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations;
3. Agree on the establishment of an intergovernmental bilateral commission which shall comprise separate sub-commissions for the prompt implementation of the commitments mentioned in operational paragraph 2 above in this Protocol.
(Source: The Journal of Turkish Weekly, http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/88032/full-text-of-the-protocols-signed-by-turkey-and-armenia.html)
Your statement is false in the point that the mentioned Articles 2 and 3 call for a sub-commission to implement “a dialogue on the historical dimension with the aim to restore mutual confidence between the two nations, including an impartial scientific examination of the historical records and archives to define existing problems and formulate recommendations; and not a “commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue [of the Armenian Genocide].”
As for the issue unrelated to the Protocols that is raised by you, as to why the majority of Armenians reject “a commission in which Turkish and Armenian historians will be studying and discussing the issue [of the Armenian Genocide],” Armenians have for numerous occasions made their arguments clear. Here they are:
1) Why do you insistently avoid to join such a commission? Don’t you trust your so-called internationally accepted, fairly referenced documents?
We, as well as the increasing number of member-states in the international community, professional associations and human rights organizations, the European Parliament, and other professionals, do trust internationally accepted, researched, studied, scrutinized, and referenced documents pertaining to the Genocide. In fact, it is based on them that those countries, organizations, and historians have come to a conclusion that actions of the Young Turks unambiguously fall under the definition of genocide. Because these countries, organizations, professional associations, genocide scholars, historians, archivists, and international lawyers have already firmly concluded that in 1915-1921 Ottoman Turks perpetrated mass massacres and deportations aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population (read: Genocide), Armenians believe that, given their conclusion and international recognition of the fact, the creation of a bilateral Armenian-Turkish commission is unnecessary.
2) Why don’t you directly come and negotiate it with Turkey?
Firstly, Armenians don’t have to ‘come’ to Turkey, it is Turkey, as genocide-perpetrator state, needs to come to Armenians and extend their apologies for mass exterminating the whole population, historical monuments, and properties of nearly 3 mln Ottoman subjects of Armenian descent. Secondly, for 95 years Turkey has continuously denied its crime against humanity, spread misinformation and lies about the true facts, distorted its archives, Even nowadays, 12 mln DVDs have been distributed to the Turkish schools shamelessly describing how ‘Armenians exterminated the Turks. In addition, those who speak the truth about the Genocide in the Turkish society are either being imprisoned, or deported, or shot to death, as in the case of Hrant Dink. Turkish prime-minister declares to the whole world, just as his murderous Young Turk predecessors implemented in 1915-1921, that he’d deport Armenians from Turkey. In other words, Turks have not shown credibility that’d allow the Armenians to negotiate with Turkey. It is clear for the Armenians that Turks will use negotiations as another tool to prolong the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by engaging themselves in negotiations that could last for another 95 years. Armenians rightfully consider such sly Turkish statements as an attempt to drag the issue for indefinite time and avoid responsibility.
3) Why have you turned the issue which is quite deep and serious into lobby wars?
Because of the same reason, explained in 2), that is: because Turkey for 95 years denies the fact and avoids acknowledging its crime, the issue, along with other tools demanding justice, has been also transformed into international lobbying efforts.
4) Why do you need such protective actions of your big brothers like the US, France, the UK?
Because of the same reason, explained in 2), that is: because Turkey by itself is unwilling and unable for 95 years to face the truth and accept guilt for heinous crime. Besides, these countries are not our ‘big brothers’. In fact, only France has adopted a parliamentary resolution acknowledging the Genocide and punishment for all those who deny it. The U.S. has not (so far), and the UK has not (so far). Historically, the UK government, for your knowledge, played a destructive role (for Armenians) in the course of the Armenian Genocide, indirectly instigating the Turks by not trying to stop their atrocities. During the genocide Armenians were totally unprotected by anyone, whether big or small ‘brothers.’ By the way, the only government that was obliged to protect them was the Ottoman Turkish government that chose to exterminate all of its Armenian subjects.
And now you tell me (and I’m using this part with the permission of ‘Kharpert’, one of the authors in this Forum):
1) According to the Ottoman census of the early 1900s, there were roughly 3 mln Armenian subjects inhabiting the Ottoman Empire before 1915. According to your prime-minister Erdogan, there are just nearly 60,000 Armenians living in Turkey nowadays. Could you tell the readers of this site as to what could possibly happen to the remaining 2 mln 940 thousands?
2) According to the Ottoman census of the early 1900s, there were some 3000 Armenian churches and monasteries across the country at the time. How many, do you think, remained intact now after 1915-1921, and what do you think could have happened to them?
3) How, in your view, Armenian diasporas spreading all over the world have been formed and what, in your view, might possibly be the reason for them to be uprooted and live not in their ancestral lands in Western Armenian provinces of Bitlis, Kars, Van, Sivas, Diyarbekir, Erzerum, and others, but in the countries they never previously inhabited, such as the U.S., Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Britain, Russia, Georgia, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Greece, Cyprus, Argentina, Brazil, Australia, and others?
4) How, in your view, could hundreds of thousands of bones of Armenians who were deported to the Syrian desert of Deyr Zor (which in 1915 was a part of the Ottoman Empire) and left there to starve to death, are still found all around the vast area? If you answer that those could be non-Armenian, I’d refer you to DNA tests proving their Armenian genetic origin.
5) How would you explain that after the Ottoman Empire surrendered to the Allies in 1918, Turkey’s new government decided to try the Young Turks leaders and the members of the Committee for Union and Progress for involving the Ottoman Empire in WWI and organizing the Armenian Genocide. The encoded telegraphs and letters attached to the Turkish Court’s verdicts that still exist in modern Turkish archives, attested to the fact that Armenians were not deported or massacred for security reasons. These documents proved that mass massacres and deportations were aimed at total annihilation of the Armenian population. This plan for “final solution” was carried out in 1915 exceptionally on the initiative of the central Turkish government.
Answer these questions, if you can, and I, too, will stop posting comments in this Forum.
Every Turkish writer who writes at this side
should analyze his DNA and give as the result of analysis
what sort of genes he carries (Turkish, Armenian, Seljuk genes ….etc)
and keep us uptodate…!
To: AB – You cannot read posts without smiling and I cannot have peace of mind without grieving for millions of massacred and deported, whose souls are still awaiting repentance. What to do? After reading the Turks’ comments in this site, I tend to think that they’re essentially trying to oppose the Armenians’ arguments, avoid responsibility for their forefathers’ criminal deeds, and whitewash their government’s crimes. Do you really share our pain? Do you understand where the pain is coming? Do you understand who inflicted the pain and by means of what atrocious crime? I’m not sure… In fact, I’m not sure at all, because in most of the comments I see attempts to deny that genocide happened, but not repentance.
No, AB, I haven’t seen any single comment in this Forum (I admit it might have slipped my attention) in which a Turk has apologized for the genocide of ethnic Armenians in the Ottoman Empire commited by the Turkish government. If you find an apology containing all such apologetic words, do please post it for my attention.
As for racial hatred, it’s below Armenians. You should have perhaps read here how grateful Armenians are for those ordinary Turks who saved them form the Ottoman government-executed mass annihilation. In every country of the world where deported or barely survived Armenians ended up living as Diaspora after the Genocide, they have become grateful and contributed to the development of those countries immensely. Ask your fellow Muslim Arabs or Iranians and see if they don’t respect their Armenian co-citizens. It is the Turkish government’s deliberate denial policy, and not racial hatred towards the Turks, that aggravates most of the Armenians. Many of us believe that nothing has changed after 1915-1921: the same denialist, unapologetic government; the same heavy lobbying efforts internationally against resolutions recognizing the Genocide; the same persecutions against those who speak out the truth about the Genocide; the same threats to deport Armenians; the same distortion of the historical facts; the same widespread misinformation campaign in the Turkish schools as evidenced by the recent distribution of over 10 mln falsified DVDs showing how ‘Armenians killed pitiable Turks’; and so on and so forth…
I don’t think I need to win your people’s sympathy for opinions and policies to change in your society. That’s not my prerogative. Even your own citizens cannot do it because of the most illiberal Article 301 of the Penal Code that hangs over your people’s heads as Damoclean sword. Recall what happened to Hrant Dink, as well as dozens of other Turkish intellectuals and don’t try to sell me that crap about winning your people’s sympathy. Have you created any legal mechanisms for that? Hell no… By the way, those intellectuals who spoke out loud were INDIVIDUALS first and foremost, not a race. Some of them even Nobel Prize laureates… And we all know how your government treated them. So don’t you think that it may be your own government that hates you as a race?
so, what is the answer folks? are Armenians going to angry forever? are you all so psychologically damaged that you cannot get over this? this is not the answer. if it is, go see a shrink. do you think the Young Turks were the only ones to ever genocide Armenians in the course of history? look back into time, and you will probably hate everyone on every side…because they ALL caused great pain and hardship to Armenians, including the Greeks, the Germans, the Mongols, the Mamluks, etc. where does it stop? or, are we the angriest people in the world? time for a change in attitude? it really becomes a tiring old song….
AB,
Repel Provision 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, and I could come over securely to win your people’s sympathy re: recognition of the genocide. I somehow feel when the stupid Provision is lifted many millions will reveal their true non-Turkic, non-Muslim identity and many more other millions of people will sympathize with the Armenians without a fear of being shot, deported, or persecuted.
Regards.
Just saw this news in Haberturk. Poor fellow, he may be the next Hrant Dink:
“Turkish lawyer Bendal Celil Ezman appealed to the Turkish court, demanding the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, condemnation of Talat Pasha and renaming of streets with the latter’s name. Haberturk reports, that the lawyer participated in a signature-gathering “Forgive us, Armenians” campaign. He insisted that in 1915 Armenians fell victims to the planned pogroms. The lawyer pointed out that he was denied to be given the documents on the trials held in 1918 and 1922, when those responsible for displacing Armenians in April and May 1915 were found guilty. “Turkey should face its history. It is the first time Turkey hears such a case,” he said.
Karekin –
Your logic is incomprehensible, I’m sorry to say. Every genocide- or other calamity-stricken nation is psycologically and morally damaged, didn’t you know? Doesn’t it seem natural to you? If it doesn’t, it means your family hasn’t been affected by the horrors of the Turkish mistreatment and, in sharp contrast to millions of other massacred or deported Armenians, enjoyed perfect life in Turkey… Just let readers know, we’ll understand. Of course, the Armenians can get over this, but don’t you think that it’s hard to do for obvious reasons because your exterminator nations denies their crime and avoids extending apologies to the victim-nation?
I’ m trying to understand what is it that annoys you in Armenians’ behavior in response to Turkish denialist stance? What do you essentially want Armenians to do? To erase their genetic memory? To erase their historical memory? To erase their demographic, civilizational memory? What kind of a crap are you saying about other nations’ massacring Armenians in the course of the history? Do you know anything that happened of THAT magnitude in our history? Give me an example. Even if I trust your sophisticated historical knowledge and admit that calamity of such magnitude had happened to Armenians before, is it so hard for you to understand that whatever could have happened before, might have happened in prehistoric, feudal, medieval times. We are talking about the 20th century, dude, wake up! We’re talking about the era where the ‘modern,’ as they call it, Turkish state was about to be formed. Is perpetrating a genocide and deprivation of the whole historical homeland is considered an accepted behavior of a modern, civilized nation in the 20th century, that Turks claim themselves to be? What’s wrong with you, bro? Don’t you mix invasions, wars, interethnic, interracial, interreligious clashes with a targeted deliberate annihilation of an ancient civilization. I do hope you’re not psychologically damaged not to appreciate the difference. Jesus Christ…
Where does it stop, you ask? I’ll tell ya. Wherever the Turkish government extends an apology to all Armenians for the genocide committed by the Ottoman government. Happy now?
Yes, I’ve advocated for the Turkish govt to issue a blanket apology to all Armenians worldwide, asap. And yes, if you were wondering, both my grandparents families and their properties disappeared in 1915. However, time moves on and the idea of carrying around anger for many generations is a bit odd to me. In a strange twist, we all know that most Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey and are probably thankful they’re not there now. Perhaps they should thank Talaat Pasha for that. Yes, 1915 onward were truly horrible, horrific years….no question about it and Armenians are owed an apology, at the least, but I would like to see a civil discussion without anger or hatred, which are both unnecessary and very unproductive.
I have been in Hrant Dinks funeral and protests against the bloody murder because i really loved him as a person and as a journalist, I still read AGOS newspaper keeping a yearly membership.
I dont believe what i hear without knowing that there is evidence so dont call me brainwashed because of carrying Turkish blood. What i saw and found on this page is extremly scary, the comments of Armenians are sometimes racist, sometimes derogatory.
That was not the way mister Dink used to be or wanted you guys to be.
If I will be called a murderer just because of where I was born, I’d rather really kill someone…
Move on guys…
TO SOULS OF DEYR ZOR,
MY COMMENTS ON SMILING AFTER READING THE COMMENTS OF URFACI WAS IN RELATION TO HOW BRAINWASHED HE IS AND WAS NEVER IN RELATION TO 1915 EVENTS. IF YOU THOUGHT THAT WAS MY INTENTION WAS TO MAKE FUN OF 1915 EVENTS I APOLOGIZE FOR THAT.
MY POINT IS VERY SIMPLE:
-AS A HALF ARMENIAN HALF LEBANESE ORIGIN TURKISH CITIZEN I HAVE NEVER FELT AN ALIEN IN TURKEY. ANY CLAIMS ON THIS SITE FROM ARMENIANS STATING THAT ARMENIANS IN TURKEY ARE OPRESSED AND ARE BEING MISTREATED IS WRONG.
-TURKISH PEOPLE ON THE STREET (AND THE COMMENTATORS ON THIS SITE) HAVE NOT KILLED YOUR/MY ANCESTORS.
-THEY DO NOT DESERVE THE INSULTS THEY ARE GETTING FROM SOME OF THE COMMENTATORS OF THIS SITE (STUPID, IMBECILE, CRUEL, UGLY AND GOD KNOWS WHAT ELSE)
-REGARDING 1915 EVENTS, I PERSONALY HAVE MY OWN OPINION ON THEM AND I BELIEVE EVERYTHING HAS A REASON TO HAPPEN. AND PLEASE DON’T SAY THAT IT HAPPENED BECAUSE ARMENIANS WERE SMARTER THAN THE TURKS (THIS IS BRAINWASHED ARMENIAN TALK), BECAUSE SUCH ARGUMENTS ARE RIDICULOUS.
-SOME OF TURKISH COMMENTATOR HAVE STATED THAT THEIR GRAND PARENTS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS AND I AM SURE THAT THIS ALSO HAPPENED. SURELY A FEW THOUSANDS TURKS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS.
-ON HRANT DINK: HE WAS AN ARMENIAN NEWSPAPER WRITER THAT NOBODY KNEW UNTIL HE GOT MURDERED. ONCE HE WAS MURDERED HE BECAME A REFERENCE SUBJECT ON HOW SAVAGE TURKS CAN BE. I PERSONALY SEE THE MATTER ON A DIFFERENT ANGLE. I CAN’T ERASE FROM MY HEAD HIS FUNERALS WHERE 100.000 TURKS WALKED SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE DINK FAMILY. THIS IS THE SYMBOL I LIKE TO REMEMBER RATHER THAN HIS MURDER.
-ON HIS MURDERER: SOME HAVE STATED IN THIS SITE THAT HIS MURDERER WAS STILL AT LARGE. THIS IS WRONG, HIS MURDERER IS CURRENTLY IN JAIL ON A LIFE IMPRISONNEMENT SENTENCE FOR MURDERING HRANT DINK. THERE ARE SOME SPECULATIONS IN TURKEY THAT HE WAS ONLY PULLING THE TRIGGER AND THAT SOME ULTRANATIONALIST GROUPS HAVE SPONSORED HIM, BUT THIS IS YET TO BE PROVEN.
-REGARDING PROVISION 301 OF THE TURKISH PENAL CODE (ADANA PLEASE DO NOT TALK ABT MATTERS YOU DO NOT KNOW): I AM NOT A LAWYER OR AN EXPERT BUT THIS ARTICLE STATES THAT INSULTING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY IS PUNISHABLE BY UP TO 3 YEARS OF PRISON.THE SAME LAW ALSO STATES THAT CRITICISING ACTION OR POLICY OF THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY IS NOT PUNISHABLE.
-IT IS INDEED TRUE THAT SOME COURT CASE WERE UNDERTAKEN BY PROSECUTORS AGAINST WRITER, LAWYER ETC..IN EACH INSTANCE THE JUDGES DECISIONS WERE THAT IT WAS FALLING UNDER “CRITICIZING” AND NOT “INSULTING”. ORHAN PAMUK THAT YOU CITE AS EXEMPLE WAS NEVER FOUND GUILTY UNDER 301 FOR INSULTING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY.
-NOW TAKING THIS ARTICLE 301 AND TURNING IT AND PRESENTING IT IN A WAY THAT IT LIMITS THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN TURKEY IS A DISTORTION.
-WHEN YOU STATE THAT EVERY TURK’S INTENTION ON THIS SITE IS TO DENY THE FACTS, SORRY I TOTALLY DIAGREE WITH YOU. TO DENY MEANS TO NOT ACCEPT SOMETHING YOU KNOW. THE TURKISH COMMENTATORS OPINION IS THAT SUCH EVENTS DID NOT OCCUR IN THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE DESCRIBING.
THIS IS WHY DIALOGUE WILL PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE FOR THE FUTURE OF ARMENIAN AND TURKISH PEOPLE. THEY WILL SHARE THEIR VERSIONS OF THE FACTS AD EVENTUALLY THE TRUTH WILL TRIUMPH.
To Karekin:
First of all, Armenians are not obsessed with an ‘idea of carrying around anger for many generations’ that is odd to you. Your judgments are so skewed! Armenians are angered by the continuous policy of denial that all consecutive Turkish governments starting 1923 onwards have adopted and aggressively carry on both domestically and in the international arena. Do you get the difference?
Second, what’s this strange prophecy of yours: ‘In a strange twist, we all know that most Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey and are probably thankful they’re not there now.” If you were referring to you personally, I’d understand it. But do you posses that prophetic capability, or a crystal ball to gaze into, to affirm that ‘Armenians are living much better lives now than they would have in Turkey?’ For you, perhaps. But many of my friends and I sometimes ask ourselves: ‘why shouldn’t my children have been raised and lived in their historical homeland, but on the remote Atlantic shores?’ Don’t you think that the very notion of ‘better lives’ is loose and controversial at best? If that ‘better life’ is given to me at the expense of my ancestors’ lands and the whole massacred and destroyed civilization, then hell no, I don’t want such a ‘better life.’ Had Armenians not been massacred, they’d retain the most valuable thing that a ‘better life’ abroad: their Homeland. I’m sorry for you, Karekin. I really am. As for your outrageous phrase ‘perhaps Armenians should thank Talaat Pasha for that,’ what can I say, and I’m sorry to do this, but you either suffer from soullessness and indifferentism or are a mind-tilter just like many of Turks posting comments here, or are a Turk in disguise. If you think Turks who treated you better than anyone else in the world, are not angry and hateful, then let them accept guilt and repent, and you’ll see how discussions will gradually become productive and anger-free.
You annoy me with your freaked views, please don’t reply or if you do, consider this as my last response to you…
A
To: Burak Can,
Do all Turks have a serious reading comprehension problem? Noone in this site called you personally ‘a murderer just because of where you were born.’ Murderers were your forefathers, as it’s been internationally recognized and increasingly accepted by the growing number of nations and organizations. And denialists of the crime were all consecutive Turkish governments. Do you see anything in these words that insults YOU personally?
As for ‘I’d rather really kill someone…’, well, I don’t know to what extent you value other human being’s life, but your forefathers: butchers of Bloody Sultan Hamid and Devil’s advocates Young Turks certainly did kill, and massively so. Armenians know this wa-a-a-y too well…
Move on guys, admit the guilt of your forefathers, repent for their crime of slaughtering and destroying the whole civilization of Armenians, and apologize to them. Why can’t you do this if you consider yourselves the most merciful people on Earth who could never mass murder other human beings? Move on, do it…
Mustafa,
I certainly appreciate your admiring words for the Turk-assassinated Hrant Dink.
From my readings of these posts I believe commentators don’t typify Turkish visitors as ‘brainwashed’ because, as you wrongly attest, ‘of carrying Turkish blood.’ It is your comments that leave an impression that what the Turks have studied at schools and learnt from their media might have made them brainwashed. One thing is crystal clear: what you studied at schools and learnt from the media is very different from what the rest of the world knows, especially when it comes to the issue of the Armenian Genocide.
You want evidence to believe that this crime against humanity happened and with the hands of your grandfathers? Go to your own National Archives and read the Verdict (as well as all attached telegrams and dépêches) that your own Military Tribunal has issued in 1918, and see with your own eyes that Young Turk butchers, devil’s advocates Tallat, Enver, and Jemal have been announced guilty for mass annihilation of the Ottoman Armenian subjects. Note, Mustafa, I’m not referring you to the Armenian sources or repositories, nor to a massive evidence of the genocide of Armenians currently piled in the voluminous archives or repositories of the UK, the US, France, Germany, Austria, Russia, Greece, and other European capitals.
As for what you found on these pages, just imagine how re-e-e-ally scary it should have been fro the millions of burnt and buried alive, mutilated, raped, let starve to death, and deported Armenian men, women, children, and elders.
Lastly, Armenians have problems with your denialist governments and not with the nation of Turkey. Ask your fellow Muslims: Arabs or Iranians where there are large Aremnian Diaspora as a result of the Genocide in Turkey, as to what they think about their Armenian co-citizens. See if any of those Muslim nations could even dare compare us with racists…
Who do you think who is more racist: a Turkish government that exterminated the whole Armenian race or Armenian commentators here who accuse the Turkish government of denying this fact and avoiding repenting and apologizing? Think for a second…
so the term “genocide” was first pronounced by Raphael Lemkin in 1944…and was acknowledged by the UN in 1948…..
noone really puts so much emphasis on stalin’s famine (7 million deaths) in 1932-33, or assyrian deaths in 1914-20….or mass killings of the native americans well before 1900s….or the massmurders of aborigins in australia in 1800s…..
there is only one truth…we are inhabitants of a planet that is plagued by WAR….and when at war, people die….1 or 1000….labelling wars as genocides will only help countries sue one another and cause hostility….and this is just what politics is all about….
Islam and Turkishness are inseparable. they will be so till the end of the time.
Excellent points.
What concerns me most here are the dogmatic, black & white comments made by those like Artavazd…whom I would ask…have you been to Turkey anytime recently? Do you realize that there are real, live, thinking people living there who don’t hate you? Yes, there are many Armenians in Turkey today, living pretty nice lives, much like those who live in Glendale, but perhaps not as spectacular. They want for nothing. Along with them are the poor, hardworking newcomers from Armenia. Have you visited the beautiful Armenian island Kinialada ? Have you seen the incredible architecture built by the Armenian architect Sinan? Guess what? You actually CAN move to Turkey and live there…lots of people do these days, the British, the Dutch, the Danes…even some Americans. My fear is that blind hatred is being used to cover up all kinds of other inadequacies and avoid a realization that history has moved on. Live in the present and enjoy it, for it will not last…your life is temporary…do not spend it being angry. There are amazing places to go and wonderful people to meet, even in Turkey…which is yes…all our homeland. Just because Armenians haven’t ruled it for 1000 years doesn’t mean you can’t go there. Act like a Maya in Mexico, taken over by the Spanish who murdered 95% of them in the process and destoyed their history, and enjoy what is left instead of making a bad thing even worse, because you cannot turn back the clock of history. What’s done is done. The milk has been spilled…it cannot be put back in the bottle.
Dear Vaneci,
I think the obsession which is widespread in the Armenian diaspora leads to some lack of comprehension in sarcastic comments.
Let me be more straightforward. As much as I hate of my own governmental politics for the complete denial of the events in 1915 in foreign affairs and providing disinformation and creating a mass ignorance via mass propaganda, I also feel fed up with the obsession of some Armenian people about these genocide laws.
The funny thing is Mr. Sassounian finds it “too good to be true” that the ambassador of Sierra Leone admits the events in 1915. Let me tell you some other good news which are actually true: I, like most of other educated man, in Turkey are well informed via personal efforts (to avoid the mainstream ideology) about the Armenian issue in 1915.
Dear Vaneci, I moved on about admitting the crimes of my grandgrandfathers, for which sometimes words are not enough to express without losing sanity. However it is also obvious there is enormous hatred in a lot of Armenian people that actually makes me feel like a murderer.
But Sassounian somehow thinks it is an achievement that this genocide law is passed by Sierra Leone. For God’s sake, where the hell is Sierra Leone!! Would you really be happy guys to hear that Swedish people recognize what happened in 1915?? Or would it be actually better to hear a Turk writes down (non-anonymously with his full name) here on this very website that “he feels extremely sorry what has been done to you” and “he wished that you guys remained here and grew up with him in Adana, Kayseri or Istanbul”??
My point is I am here to repent for the crimes of my grandfathers!!
But you need to see Swedish, American or Sierra Leone parliaments instead. Right??? Do u guys need pity?? Well thats what these nations, organizations etc.. can give you…
But if you ever feel like your suffering to be shared by the people of your own land, I say, do it the difficult way!! Try to tell us what we have done. Talk to us…
Talk to me.
AB,
Please excuse my ignorance, maybe Turkish keyboards are different from the others, but normally there’s a ‘Caps Lock’ button in the left side of any keyboard. When it’s released, typists can type in plain letters and not capitalize all of them. Capitalizing letters doesn’t necessarily make comments more convincing. Just a remark, needless, perhaps…
Now to you points (my responses are in plain letters):
-AS A HALF ARMENIAN HALF LEBANESE ORIGIN TURKISH CITIZEN I HAVE NEVER FELT AN ALIEN IN TURKEY.
Ok. But that doesn’t preclude many other Turks of non-Turkish origin to discover their true genes and feel depressed in your society. See this video (non-Armenian, don’t worry), if you will: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h69Zz0sV0GY
ANY CLAIMS ON THIS SITE FROM ARMENIANS STATING THAT ARMENIANS IN TURKEY ARE OPRESSED AND ARE BEING MISTREATED IS WRONG.
Then you’d need to sufficiently explain attacks on the Armenian communities in the 1950s in Turkey, destruction of virtually all Armenian monuments in the country, reasons for mass emigration of the remaining Armenians from Turkey, plots to kill the Armenian Patriarch, assassination of Hrant Dink, distribution to the schools of 12 mln falsified DVDs about ‘mass murders’ committed by Armenians, and your prime-minister’s threats to deport Armenians from Turkey (I’ve got many more facts for you, but just wanted to save time and space in this Forum).
-TURKISH PEOPLE ON THE STREET (AND THE COMMENTATORS ON THIS SITE) HAVE NOT KILLED YOUR/MY ANCESTORS.
Agreed. Their grandparents did.
-THEY DO NOT DESERVE THE INSULTS THEY ARE GETTING FROM SOME OF THE COMMENTATORS OF THIS SITE (STUPID, IMBECILE, CRUEL, UGLY AND GOD KNOWS WHAT ELSE)
They certainly don’t. But my reading into these comments suggest that commentators mostly referred to your forefathers in derogatory words who did mass murdered Armenians under the centralized Ottoman policy of race annihilation or to your government who shamelessly denies the fact.
-REGARDING 1915 EVENTS, I PERSONALY HAVE MY OWN OPINION ON THEM AND I BELIEVE EVERYTHING HAS A REASON TO HAPPEN. AND PLEASE DON’T SAY THAT IT HAPPENED BECAUSE ARMENIANS WERE SMARTER THAN THE TURKS (THIS IS BRAINWASHED ARMENIAN TALK), BECAUSE SUCH ARGUMENTS ARE RIDICULOUS.
I’d be interested to know what YOU think the reason was. No, it didn’t happen because Armenians were smarter than the Turks, but many historians (non-Armenian, don’t worry) agree that one of the reasons was the fact that Armenians were socially more dominant at the time than the Turks. No one here said anything about being smarter.
-SOME OF TURKISH COMMENTATOR HAVE STATED THAT THEIR GRAND PARENTS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS AND I AM SURE THAT THIS ALSO HAPPENED. SURELY A FEW THOUSANDS TURKS HAVE BEEN DECIMATED BY ARMENIANS.
We’d need to draw a careful cause-consequence connection in this particular case. Was it a result of outrage for widespread mistreatment by the Turks? I admit that inter-communal violence happened, as well as Armenian national-liberation uprising against the Turkish yoke happened, but you stubbornly miss the most important point: the response that Armenians received from the Turks was, mildly speaking, INADEQUATE: 3 million Ottoman citizens of Armenian descent have been wiped out one way or the other from the face of the Earth. Could you give me a single example in historical sources found anywhere in the world that Armenians have done anything close of THAT magnitude?
-ON HRANT DINK: HE WAS AN ARMENIAN NEWSPAPER WRITER THAT NOBODY KNEW UNTIL HE GOT MURDERED. ONCE HE WAS MURDERED HE BECAME A REFERENCE SUBJECT ON HOW SAVAGE TURKS CAN BE. I PERSONALY SEE THE MATTER ON A DIFFERENT ANGLE. I CAN’T ERASE FROM MY HEAD HIS FUNERALS WHERE 100.000 TURKS WALKED SIDE BY SIDE WITH THE DINK FAMILY. THIS IS THE SYMBOL I LIKE TO REMEMBER RATHER THAN HIS MURDER.
Your remark that he was nobody before he got murdered is off the subject. But if you wish, he WAS known outside Turkey; he travelled and received awards for pioneering human rights in Turkey. Besides, if nobody knew him how come 100,000 people appeared at his funeral? Also, how can you be sure that those were 100,000 Turks and not mixed or hidden Armenians or Armenian-sympathizers? The international community looked at his funeral from a very different prospective than that of yours. People of the world considered it as a symbol of long-awaited changes in the Turkish society with regard to Turkey’s horrible record on human rights, humiliating provision 301, grave mistreatment of Kurds, hawkish attitude towards the Armenians and all those intellectual Turks who speak the truth about the Genocide.
-ON HIS MURDERER: SOME HAVE STATED IN THIS SITE THAT HIS MURDERER WAS STILL AT LARGE. THIS IS WRONG, HIS MURDERER IS CURRENTLY IN JAIL ON A LIFE IMPRISONNEMENT SENTENCE FOR MURDERING HRANT DINK. THERE ARE SOME SPECULATIONS IN TURKEY THAT HE WAS ONLY PULLING THE TRIGGER AND THAT SOME ULTRANATIONALIST GROUPS HAVE SPONSORED HIM, BUT THIS IS YET TO BE PROVEN.
Yes, Turkish sources say Dink’s murderer is in prison. Maybe yes, maybe he’s enjoying good life in Antalian resorts, I don’t know, neither do you. But if you indeed think that a lonely maniac pulled the trigger with no backing from powerful forces, then I think I’ll stop right here.
-REGARDING PROVISION 301 OF THE TURKISH PENAL CODE: I AM NOT A LAWYER OR AN EXPERT BUT THIS ARTICLE STATES THAT INSULTING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY IS PUNISHABLE BY UP TO 3 YEARS OF PRISON.THE SAME LAW ALSO STATES THAT CRITICISING ACTION OR POLICY OF THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY IS NOT PUNISHABLE.
Article 301 states not just that insulting the Republic of Turkey is punishable, but all of the following (Source is non-Armenian, don’t worry, http://www.osce.org/documents/rfm/2005/03/14223_en.pdf):
1. A person who publicly denigrates Turkishness, the Republic or the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, shall be sentenced a penalty of imprisonment for a term of six months to three years.
2. A person who publicly denigrates the Government of the Republic of Turkey, the judicial bodies of the State, the military or security organizations, shall be sentenced to a penalty of imprisonment for a term of six months to two years.
3. Where denigrating of Turkishness is committed by a Turkish citizen in another country, the penalty to be imposed shall be increased by one third.
4. Expressions of thought intended to criticize shall not constitute a crime.
It is exactly this loose insult-criticism schism, that the government can use however it wishes to, that makes 301 so controversial, illiberal, and discriminatory in the eyes of the world.
-IT IS INDEED TRUE THAT SOME COURT CASE WERE UNDERTAKEN BY PROSECUTORS AGAINST WRITER, LAWYER ETC. IN EACH INSTANCE THE JUDGES DECISIONS WERE THAT IT WAS FALLING UNDER “CRITICIZING” AND NOT “INSULTING”. ORHAN PAMUK THAT YOU CITE AS EXEMPLE WAS NEVER FOUND GUILTY UNDER 301 FOR INSULTING THE REPUBLIQUE OF TURKEY.
Yes, some of the several thousands of the accused Turks were not put in prison, but they were tried, sometimes several times, and many deported or escaped. Orhan Pamuk was tried because he said that “30,000 Kurds and one million Ottoman Armenians were killed in Turkey.” Elif Safak was tried because of her expressions in her book “Father and Bastard,” saying “I am the grandchild of genocide survivors who lost all their relatives to the hands of the Turkish butchers in 1915, but I myself have been brainwashed to deny the genocide because I was raised by some Turk named Mustafa.” For a great number of other well-known cases emanating from article 301 and their summaries, please see this (non-Armenian, don’t worry) document: ‘Turkey: Article 301: How the Law on ‘Denigrating Turkishness’ Is an Insult to Free Expression, Amnesty International,’ 10 May 2008, at: http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/EUR44/003/2006/en/dom-EUR440032006en.html.
-NOW TAKING THIS ARTICLE 301 AND TURNING IT AND PRESENTING IT IN A WAY THAT IT LIMITS THE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN TURKEY IS A DISTORTION.
That’s your personal opinion, which substantially differs from the opinion of many regional organizations and human rights and advocacy groups and international lawyers, like OSCE and Amnesty International. Repel the Article and you’ll see how many millions of Turks will reveal their true identity and the stories of their persecuted families.
-WHEN YOU STATE THAT EVERY TURK’S INTENTION ON THIS SITE IS TO DENY THE FACTS, SORRY I TOTALLY DIAGREE WITH YOU. TO DENY MEANS TO NOT ACCEPT SOMETHING YOU KNOW. THE TURKISH COMMENTATORS OPINION IS THAT SUCH EVENTS DID NOT OCCUR IN THE WAY YOU GUYS ARE DESCRIBING.
THIS IS WHY DIALOGUE WILL PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE FOR THE FUTURE OF ARMENIAN AND TURKISH PEOPLE. THEY WILL SHARE THEIR VERSIONS OF THE FACTS AD EVENTUALLY THE TRUTH WILL TRIUMPH.
Then describe the events the Turkish way. Bear in mind, though, that what we describe is not typically and narrowly the Armenian story, but basically what many other nations, governments, organizations, and professionals in the field agree upon.
Given Turkish denialist stance for decades, their obstruction of internationally-recognized facts, lobbying against resolutions acknowledging the Genocide, distortion of the historical facts in the Turkish educational system, and Article 301 that would most certainly prevent Turkish historians to acknowledge the truth because by that they will insult Turkishness, Armenians came to firmly believe that any dialogue on the issue of the Armenian Genocide will not yield any results except for its prolongation and forgetfulness, which certainly fits Turkey’s agenda.
Akhtamar
I am not here as an advocate defending Turkish government. So far I read on these pages, i found out that Turks were called to be mongol, barbarian, most of them have Armenian, Greek, Assyiran origin, Turks didnt create anything, every ottoman treasury has Armenian, Greek or Assyrian signatures, Turks only knew how to hold a sword and kill. Well dear friend, there are many other aspects like this.
I didnt ask you to point out an evidence, I know horrible things had happened. I feel and say sorry for everybody who lost their grand parents. But I have a question, what is the criterias to call a murder -genocide-? The way it is done or the amount that is murdered? In the same archieves you can find how many Turks and other muslims lost their life due to Armenian riots. There had been 18 riots as far as i know.
The problem is not denying but the way of describing. As you say Turkish media and schools teach us different than the rest of the world, is that because some countries call these events a murder but not a genocide such as Danmark? By the way Danmark is far from being an ally of Turkey.
Like Hrant Dink says, “It will not make any sense to call it a genocide or murder, both sides should try to understand each other and work for a better life. It is the western powers who caused all the problems in anatolia and they never accepted any responsibilities. Armenians are murdered one more time when they are used as a political weapon in the international arena.”
To: silent
Yes, before 1940s there was no term that could exactly reflect Turkish barbarity against Armenians, although many witnesses, including the U.S. Ambassador to Turkey Henry Morgenthau did use the terms “race annihilation” and “crime against humanity” in his letters to the State Department. By the way, Polish Jew Raphael Lemkin introduced the term based exactly on the horrors of the extermination of the Armenians by the Turks.
It is short-sighted and small-minded, I’m sorry to say, to state that “no one really puts so much emphasis on Stalin’s famine in 1932-33, or Assyrian deaths in 1914-20 or mass killings of the native Americans well before 1900s or the mass murders of aborigines in Australia in 1800s.” People who value human life and understand that any mass loss of life as a result of deliberate policy of race extermination (read: Genocide), DO put emphasis on every instance of genocide. They believe that if the Armenian Genocide were properly condemned by Turkey and the international community, much less probability could there be for the Germans to exterminate Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and others. Before his extermination campaign in 1939, Hitler cynically pronounced: “Who today remembers of the annihilation of the Armenians?” And you today dare to use roughly similar phrase: “who really puts emphasis on Stalin’s famine, or Assyrian deaths, mass killings of the native Americans or the mass murders of aborigines in Australia?”. Well, WE DO.
WE, all those people of good will who clearly understand that in the cases you’ve presented there was no WAR, and people have died en masse because of government-planned mass murder. Whenever this mass murder involves a planned extermination of an ethnic, racial, and religious minority, as in case of the Armenians, the civilized world calls it GENOCIDE, and not WAR. Can you appreciate the difference? Use your brains and try…
P.S. For your information: Ukrainians DO put emphasis on their famine in the Stalin’s years that they consider a genocide; Assyrians DO put emphasis on their extermination by the Turks along with Greeks and Armenians; Americans DID that in regard to Indians and Blacks by enacting the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s; Germans DID put emphasis on acknowledging extermination of the Jews in the 1970s and pay reparations until the present day; the French DID put emphasis on mistreatment of the Algerians and apologized to them.
You know why they did it? Because normal nations, in contrast to the Turks, are willing to wash off the guilt from their nations’ past, repent, live stainless so to speak, and entered the family of civilized nations of the world.
News flash: has anyone considered that the architects of the Armenian genocide may not have even been true Turks, themselves? This is the irony…and the saddest part…that today’s Turks have been hoodwinked into supporting the criminal and murderous actions of a bunch of crazy, non-Turks of the CUP, who ran the country into the ground, stole the properties of the minorities and created a hundred year mess for Turkey. Just as the Nazis ruined Germany w/ their antics, the characters of the CUP were a disaster for everyone, Turks, Armenians, Greeks and anyone living in that country. Let’s look at exactly who benefited from their actions and we will find the criminals and place the blame accurately. In any criminal case, it always helps to follow the money…the same thing is the case in Turkey. It is no different, except the ‘set-up’ blames all the wrong people. To some degree, the current events in Turkey that have exposed the Ergenekon activities, shows where these things come from, as they are all related to the plans of the Ittihadists. Forcing people to drink poisoned kool-aid doesn’t make them guilty of anything but being easily manipulated and perhaps stupid…but, being stupid isn’t a crime. The crimes are always instigated and coordinated by those at the top. Let’s remember that important point.
CDEFG,
I HAVE NOTHING LEFT TO TELL YOU…
YOUR HATRED IS CLOUDING YOUR JUDGEMENT. BLACK YOU SEE IT AS WHITE, WHITE YOU SEE IT AS BLACK…
YOU ARE FREE TO TALK ON BEHALF OF ARMENIANS FROM DIASPORA (SINCE I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE PART OF IT), BUT DON’T SPECULATE ON THE LIFES AND FEELINGS OF MINORITIES IN TURKEY TODAY.
SURELY YOU HAVE NEVER BEEN TO TURKEY AND YOU HAVE NEVER TALKED TO ANY MINORITY FROM TURKEY.
I WISH YOU GOOD LUCK IN YOUR HATRED.
Dear Burak,
I appreciate your straightforwardness in abhorring your ‘governmental politics for the complete denial of the events in 1915 and providing disinformation and creating a mass ignorance via mass propaganda.’ Most impressive and touching is your admittance of the crimes of your grandfathers,’ and that you are here ‘to repent for the crimes of my grandfathers.’ I appreciate your sincerity, believe me, I really do, knowing how dangerous it is in Turkey to take such a courageous step.
With this appreciation in mind I’d also like that you understand that what you characterize as ‘widespread obsession’ about genocide resolutions that ‘leads to lack of comprehension in sarcastic comments,’ is considered by Armenians as the only effective tool to invite your denialist government to acknowledge the truth. Of course, it’d be more appropriate to hear that Turkish government itself accepted recognition of the genocide, and not Sierra Leone or Sweden. But where is it, Burak? How many more decades do we need to await your government’s repentance for crime? It is important for you to know that not only your government denies the crime, it engages itself in aggressive countermeasures, such as lobbying against resolutions recognizing the genocide, persecuting and convicting Turkish intellectuals for speaking the truth about the genocide, murdering them on the streets as in the case of Hrant Dink, disseminating disinformational DVDs to the Turkish elementary schools that portray Armenians as mass murderers of the Turks, imposing Article 301 of your Penal Code on all those who insult Turkishness by telling the truth, threatening to expel Armenians from Turkey, and completing the destruction of almost all ancient Armenian monuments in Western Armenian provinces of Turkey.
Armenians need not pity, they need acknowledgment of the historical truth and repentance that should come not from the people like you, although it is, again, very touching and commendable, but from the government that for decades denies the truth.
As for telling you what the Turks have done to the Armenians, I’m afraid no discussion in this forum will be enough time- and space-wise to satisfy your curiosity. If you’re interested, there’s a whole wealth of information in the leading world archives and repositories in Great Britain, France, Germany, Greece, Russia, Italy, and the U.S., not to mention the Republic of Armenia. If travelling there is costly, there’s a lot of evidence in the Turkish Archives. Lots of evidence is distorted, of course, (and this one other countermeasure that your government takes against the truth), but some evidence, especially Verdicts and supporting materials of the Turkish Military Tribunal of 1918 and 1920, that clearly pronounce the Young Turk regime guilty for the total annihilation of the Ottoman Armenian citizens.
When you familiarize yourself with these documents, do please talk to us…
AB —
I’m confused. You asked that I answer your questions. I did in all honesty spending a lot of my otherwise busy time. Where exactly have you seen hatred in my response to you? These are my views, they may be incompatible to yours, but it doesn’t mean they can be qualified as “hatred.” Re-read them and ask yourself in which passage you felt anything Turkophobic or personally offensive?
And, no, I’m not an Armenia from the Diaspora. I live in the Republic of Armenia. We are one, indivisable nation.
Good luck to you, too, in comprehending other people’s opinions and viewpoints.
Mr. Ahmet = Ahmad this is correct name if you are real Muslim.
Written in Al Qurran Al Kareem.
Islam says, the nearest to us is Al Nasarah (The Christians),
It seems the Armenians know Islamic religion better than Turks.
Humanity is more important than religion.
Arabs protected Armenians without knowing human rights.
Who hanged 43 Arab literates in Lebanon and Syria in two Squares.
In may 6, 1916 and August 1916.
Is this written in your history, or you vanished it
But Arab poet has written so much about you no one can vanish that.
You pushed ancestors of prophet Muhammad Al Hashimite to get rid of you
by help of British.
You hanged the Arab Muslim Literates because they called you,
“You Turks, You are never Muslims.”
Every one can change his religion,
but they can never change their cruel genes.
Needs Genetic Engineering to turn clean.
I’m afraid people like Karekin (actually he’s one of the kind in these pages given the ‘originality’ of his views) venture into engaging themselves in mind-tilting efforts that no sober-minded Armenian would ever succumb to. I’m bewildered as to where his apologetic attitude towards the Ottoman Turkey comes from.
Whoever the architects of the Armenian Genocide were, Young Turks or the others, whether Young Turks were forced to carry out race annihilation or have done so in clear mind and soberness, essentially don’t matter at this historical juncture. The genocide has been executed based on orders of the central Turkish government that in 1915 comprised of the Young Turks, and voluminous evidence exists to that effect in the Turkish and world archives. And Young Turks claimed to be true ethnic Turks. Even if they claimed to be tribesmen of the African tribe Mumbo-Yumbo, they were the central power authority in Turkey in 1915-1918, who dispatched well-documented and referenced orders to annihilate their Armenian subjects. The Young Turks’ actions might have been a disaster for everyone in Turkey, yes, but my people have suffered in an incomparable magnitude having been wiped out the whole Western Armenian civilization from the face of the earth. Armenians and international experts rightfully blame Young Turks as perpetrators and demand an apology from the modern Turkish government for the actions of their predecessors. Whether Young Turks were ethnic Eskimos or African Zulus doesn’t matter. Whether they might have been instigated or coordinated by someone mysterious on the top doesn’t matter, it’s been done by their hands. Whether there might have been other motives for their actions (money, political preferences, etc.) don’t matter, the goal doesn’t justify the means in the modern, civilized world. In fact, no historical evidence exists to prove the opposite, or even if it’s found, will the Turkish government more easily repent and recognize the genocide? Or will the Armenians be able to return to their ancestral homeland now?
What does matter at this historical juncture is that all consecutive Turkish governments continue to deny the fact of the genocide. Or people like Karekin would say that all consecutive Turkish governments also were non-Turks? Well, then why wouldn’t they move away from other peoples’ lands if they’re non-Turks? And I don’t care who benefitted from the Young Turks’ crime. First and foremost, Turks did: they captured, distorted, de-populated, and destroyed the lands of my ancestors. Understanding who else might have benefitted wouldn’t make my grief any easier or help the genocide acknowledged or give my homeland back to me.
To the editorial board,
WHERE ARE MY POSTS?
Dear Vaneci,
I guess my English was not good enough to make my point. I am not curious about what had happened personally. You say “I’m afraid no discussion in this forum will be enough time“. I agree with you and luckily there’s no need for that. I know enough of what has happened. I basically meant that you guys have to make sure people keep on talking and learning from each other. Especially Turks have a lot to learn.
You also state “Armenians need not pity, they need acknowledgment of the historical truth and repentance that should come … from the government“. Do you sincerely think that a Turkish government one day will say “We apologize” in a society where the majority have no idea actually what Armenia is? That’s why, once again, I said you should talk to people. You should approach them not as if they are responsible for what has happened but just as people. Once people see what terrible things have happened then a governmental admittance of the events will naturally follow.
You also ask me when this apology will come: “where is it, Burak? How many more decades do we need to await your government’s repentance for crime?”. I tell you how it should work! You simply have to talk to people. Make them acquinted with your culture, history etc. Once you do these, then people will ask themselves “What have we done??”. No government can deny something that is a majority belief. Yet no Turkish government “will” give a repentance (even if every single country including Liechtenstein passes a relevant law recognizing this issue) as long as the majority of Turkish people have no idea about 1915!!
My personal enlightment has happened luckily due to encounters with Armenians with whom I can talk to and learn from. I have acquired enormous sympathy and shared feelings towards this culture.Yet I just cant stop hating this Diaspora attitude which doesnt come to me to show what kind of cursed lands I have born into but expects pity from Sierra Leone parliament. This, what I call diaspora obsession, drives me crazy. Same obsession was called as the “poisonous blood” by Hrant Dink.
Best
Burak
P.S: It is not as bad as it looks actually in Turkey. You can say that you believe it was a genocide. You can say it was not a genocide but a massacre. You can also say it was a retaliation. It just doesnt change what we have done to you. Does it? Once again, -knowing that you will appreciate but wont be satisfied- I am deeply sorry for our mutualy past.
Burak,
I basically agree with you re: the importance of people-to-people contacts, but disagree that these contacts should replace the international pressure on your government. Both venues must continue if the efforts of Armenians and the international community are to yield a result. If we leave it on people-to-people contacts only, imagine how many more hundreds of years will be necessary for a nation of 10 mln (Armenia and Armenian communities abroad combined) to enlighten the nation of 73 mln. We believe that international pressure on your government is of utmost importance; otherwise a reluctant government will always conformably deny the truth as it did for 95 years and prolong recognition of the crime for another 95 years.
Of course, pressure from within the country is very important, but you’ve got to admit that because of the discriminatory Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, few people can be secure to speak out the truth. In the current reality, those who did were either tried in courts, or deported, or escaped themselves, or been shot. Some Turks might not know where Armenia is, as you say, yes, but many of them know or heard about Article 301. Why won’t you better pressure your government to lift the Article? According to you, ‘no government can deny something that is a majority’s belief.’ So don’t you think you’d be better off persuading your government to repel the ban on the freedom of speech, than to have Armenians educate 73 mln Turks about the Armenian genocide. Hrant Dink tried to go against 301 and been shot. Orhan Pamuk and dozens of others tried and been expelled or escaped. But if millions of Turks try, you can succeed. And when you succeed, there’s no doubt in my mind that millions of Turks will reveal their true non-Turkic, non-Muslim identity, and many more millions will tell stories of persecutions of Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians that their grandparents, neighbors, community leaders witnessed in those horror years.
As for Diaspora (and I’m not a Diasporan Armenian), you have to understand: they’re the direct descendents of those deported or bearly survived hundreds of thousands of Armenians who lost EVERYTHING: their homeland, their lands and pastures, their houses, their neighborhoods, their property and valuables. One need to be an Armenian to understand the pain that exists in these people and it’s not going away. Even Diasporan Armenian children, in their third or fourth generations, born and raised outside their homeland, bear this burden in their genes and blood. They’re not obsessed, they carry the memories of those persecuted millions of innocent people and just follow the call of their blood: to achieve Justice for their victims. This cannot be called ‘obsession’ or ‘poisonous blood.’
P.S: Burak, things look different on the outside. Maybe you can say to your friend or even a group of friends that you believe it was genocide. But listen to this: I can be on the Armenian TV and declare that genocide of Armenians never happened, but I will not be prosecuted or tried in courts afterwards. Can you come out on Turkish TV, declare that Turks mass murdered 1.5 mln Armenians and you believe it was genocide? I wonder what would happen to you afterwards…
As you quite correctly predicted, I’m not satisfied, but I truly appreciate your candor and courage.
Dear Vaneci,
I hope all will be settled.
Best
turks are the same old bloodthirsty barbarians NOTHING has changed except they’ve manged to learn to wear western clothes to pass self as one, and a new mask to hide their real uglines. the ugly turk is alive and well.
Dear Armine….and anyone else…while I don’t intend to upset you or anyone else, let me just say that 1) there are lots of Armenians in the diaspora who really know nothing about their own history (I am not one of them!) and 2) there are many who are done w/ the genocide obsession….and 3) it does matter who ordered the genocide because the political relatives of those people are still running the show and still causing problems for everyone in Turkey. There is a connection. That said, you should know that Turkey is not the deep, dark, horrible place that you have in your mind…it’s actually quite wonderful. And guess what? I live in America, which is land that technically was owned by native American Indians for at least 50,000 years….so, what am I supposed to do about it at this point? Feel guilty? Hand my house over to them? What do you suggest? And, more importantly, how are native Americans supposed to feel or act? You must realize that history, tough as it is, moves on. Stop being stuck in the past! It’s a dangerous place…so, don’t go there.
“Every one can change his religion,
but they can never change their cruel genes.
Needs Genetic Engineering to turn clean”
That is so true! You are the living proof! Some people never tire of shouting their bigotry and shortcomings from tree tops.
Here is another small tip that may help you in life: If a man says his name is XYZ, it means his name is XYZ, not your or another version of it. It is simple manners not to correct someone’s name and imply they do not know their very own name.
“Three things naught but evil work–
The locust the vermin, and the Turk.”
— An old Arab song
That is so true! You are a living proof!
Here is another small tip that may help you in life:
“Les Turcs ont passé a tout est ruine et deuil.”
(The Turks have traversed there, all is ruin and mourning.)
— French writer Victor Hugo
In case you don’t know the Turks’ real name…
Sick man of Europe = Turks. Armenian, Pontiff Greeks ,Assyrian & now Kurdish Genocide perpetrator = Turks. Western Armenia and Cyprus occupier = Turks. Historical revisionists = Turks. Dark stain on human history = Turks.
Fellow Armenian commentators,
Today is Easter, the resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. God has given Christians a new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus from the dead so that we may walk in a new way of life.
Let’s forgive our transgressors and love our enemies, as Jesus teaches us. It is not us who need to judge the Turks who committed a heinous crime against us and inflicted pain upon us, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. What is required of us is forgiveness, for it is written:“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.” Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good (Romans 12:17-21). – Holy Bible
Karekin – If you’re done with genocide recognition efforts that the prevailing majority of Armenians make for decades in order to achieve Justice, why are you posting comments in a site that, among other issues, deals with the genocide recognition? Don’t you think it’d be more suitable for a person with your one-of-a-kind mentality to comment in Zaman or Turkish Daily in your ‘quite wonderful land of Turkey’? The majority of Armenians cannot erase their genetic and historical memories just like that, as simple as you tend to advocate in these pages. It’ll be possible to overcome ONLY when we know that the murderer-government has apologized to the victim-nation. PERIOD.
Your outlandish comparisons with American Indians are, mildly speaking, naïve and, strikingly, lack the depth of the Armenian thinking. American Indians did not inhabit America as condense as Greeks, Assyrians, Hittites, Armenians, and other ancient nations did in Asia Minor. At the time of Portuguese/Spanish/British arrival America was MOSTLY uninhabited, not counting several disconnected Indian tribes. Was there a wrongdoing on part of early Americans with regard to the Indians? Yes, there was. But guess what: a) It was NOT on the magnitude that Armenians suffered in the hands of the Turks; and b) Americans felt guilty and have acknowledged their wrongdoings (both with regard to the Indians and Afro-Americans) when the U.S. government has enacted into law the Civil Rights Act in the 1960s. If you travel to Washington, DC you’ll see the grandiose Museum of the American Indian right next to the Capitol, heart of the nation. Besides, Indians have not created a civilization in a true sense of the word (agricultural development, urban construction, settlement development, architectural development, educational network, religious institutions’ development, arts and sciences development, libraries and repositories’ development, and other infrastructures), whereas Armenians have created one empire, several statehoods, and several dynasties starting 2nd millennium BC up until the Seljuk-Mongol invasions of the 11-13th centuries. Even more, they retained their statehood up until the 14th century in the Cilician kingdom. Our case is unique in many respects, the most important one being that the Turks have wiped out our whole ancient civilization, not just segmental nomadic tribes in mostly uninhabited lands as in the case of American Indians.
Turks cannot hand out our houses, remnant of our churches, monasteries and educational centers to us on their own will just because no invader hands out the occupied lands to their rightful masters, the lands need to be fought back. But what Turks CAN do is to stop their shameless denialist policies, repent for their crimes and extend apologies to all Armenians. And, for your knowledge, this by no means pertains to the past, in which, as you personally think Armenians are stuck. Apology that the world is demanding from the Turks is a matter of the present, and it’s needed exactly to overcome the grievances from the dangerous past.
Jesus… Your mentality is so twisted and weird.
Sorry Takuhi, but you really now what you’re talking about. The European invasion of the Americas resulted in 95% of the 20 million inhabitants being completely wiped out, to be replaced w/ the languages and cultures of the conquerors. This is history. You may not like to hear it, but other human beings have had it much worse along the way. Armenians, whether you like it or not, did very well under all the empires that conquered them. Here’s a tough idea to swallow…Armenians lost and lost big. That doesn’t mean abandonning genocide recognition, but come on…let’s be real…all the recognition in the world will not turn back the clock of history, I’m sorry to say. We should be very happy that there’s an azad Hayastan right now….that’s something very unique in history…and, it needs our help…not petty arguments about battles that have been lost a long time ago and can never be won. The Armenian case is not unique. Very sad and yes, painful, but not unique. Get out of your Armenian bubble and see the world in its entirety. Yes, apology is due, but you can pound your fist and jump up and down all you want, it will not produce a sincere response or one that you want.
To Mrs. Anahid,
I wish we were not Christian; one Armenian said,
Because we were Christian we were slaughtered.
Recently I started calling our selves ‘Gomidasian’
which means Culture and Religion.
To Mrs. Taquhi
Thanks for your clear article,
Our case cannot be compared with any other.
We were the heart of civilization,
America was an empty lands when invaders entered, and still empty they call for immigrants to come and build.
Western Armenia had churches, cathedrals,
Till now such cathedrals can’t be build in USA.
I am more proud of my culture than my religion.
Religion is a faith, but culture is what you created in the past and what you will do in the future.
Still we have minds and hands to create as we did and do everywhere.
We Turks also tried to exterminate the Chinese. That’s why they built the Great Wall.
Oh, and the Byzantines!! How can one forget?!
But I suggest you all to accuse Mongolia as well. Like a couple of millenia ago, they massacred all Eurasia. No?
Why is no one doing anything about Mongolia? They pose a bigger threat than we do. Funny what some people say about Turkishness :)
Pontus – Actually, you’re not far from truth. Turkish nation is essentially an amalgamation of Seljuk and Mongol nomadic tribes that originated in the steppes of wider Central Asia and scorched numerous developed ancient civilizations in Asia Minor in the 11th-13th centuries AD.
No one argues that Mongol invasions on Eurasia were destructive, but Mongols destroyed other, more civilized, nations in order to settle in their hands. Whereas in 1915-1921 their descendants, Ottoman Turks, exterminated in the most barbaric ways and on orders of a central Turkish government the whole ancient civilization of THEIR OWN Ottoman Armenian citizens.
Also, I don’t know what they teach you in schools (apparently what caring for other peoples’ lives Turks have been throughout their history), but modern-day state of Mongolia is NOT the same Mongol khanate known from the past.
Sylva-MD-Poetry,
What are you talking about? if armenians knew Islam better than Turks, they would be Muslim by now and would not believe such a nonsense as trinity.
we did not push anybody to get rid of us. they sold themselves to the british. now they are paying for their betrayal to the Ottoman Empire.
anyone who betrays, pays for it. history is a lesson my dear!!! you know it best….
Pontus and Erzurum,
the Turks are great warriors. you are not. this is what really pisses you off. because you are not as strong as Turks, you smear on them by claiming that they are barbarians. this is the tactic that the westerners adopt.
if you cant beat the Turks, at least lie about them and try to ruin their reputation.
pathetic…
Hey, Ahmet oghlu or whatever abusive name has been given you –
Has any Armenian in these pages ever insulted your religion? With your hand on your heart, has any Christina in this or any other discussion ever said anything remotely insulting Islam or your prophet as you just did with regard to the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit? You’re so narrow-minded, ignorant, and uncivilized Turk that it’s beyond your grasp to comprehend the universal truth that by insulting others you first and foremost insult yourself and highlight the primitivism and stupidity of your thinking… Besides, don’t you think that by insulting the Son of God you also insult one of your prophets in the Holy Koran and his mother Mary about whom the whole sura is written, you pathetic moron?!
You did not push anybody to get rid of you? That’s right, you found a simpler solution: you got rid of anybody by yourselves. Any indigenous, ancient nation that the Ottoman Turks enslaved was wiped out by you. But a person like you may be proud of your barbarism, I assume?
Exactly who betrayed whom? Unarmed, impoverished, defenseless men, women, children and the elderly betrayed? And exactly where? On the frontlines with the British, Russians, and others that never passed through the Armenian-populated provinces of the Ottoman Empire?
Turks are great conquerors of other peoples’ lands, looters, scorchers, rapists, mutilators, and genocide-perpetrators that the world-renowned French writer Victor Hugo has described based on what the civilized Europeans have seen in horror from 11th to18th centuries: “The Turks went through there. Everything is ruin and mourning.” Had Armenians not been good warriors defending their ancient lands and civilization from all sides, we’d by now ceased to exist. Yes, we were not as strong in number as the hordes of uncivilized, barbaric Seljuks and Mongols because we, as settlers, throughout centuries concentrated our attention on creating: towns and villages, architectural marbles, manuscripts and books, agriculture and trade, education and arts. And not on scorching other peoples’ lands, pastures in order to settle there by themselves. Your ‘reputation’, if the term is at all applicable to you, is already known to the world especially after wiping out the Armenians in 1915 from the face of the earth, and it is below our self-esteem to ruin it further.
Don’t you worry: soon YOU will pay for your crimes. The history teaches us that no crime is passed unpunished…
In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
Heavenly Father,
As a follower of Jesus Christ, I pray that you forgive Ahmet for insulting you as ONE Godhead, as he doesn’t know what he’s saying. Jesus teaches us to love our enemies and bless those who curse us, but not hate and kill them as others do.
“Do not repay evil with evil or insult with insult, but with blessing, because to this you were called so that you may inherit a blessing (1 Peter 3:9).”
– Holy Bible
Ahmet,
Not only you sound retarded on the issues of historical, ethnographic, and geographical significance, but you also distort your own religion’s friendly and tolerant view of Christians, who are named “the People of the Book” in the Koran, by daring to insult Holy Trinity, that is, One Godhead, as ‘nonsense.’ It appears that you’ve been a non-achiever at school not only in the subjects above, but also in Islamic studies.
So may I, as a Christian, remind you of just one verse of the Koran that states:
“… You will find the people most affectionate to those who believe are those who say, ‘We are Christians.’ That is because some of them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.” (Surat al-Ma’ida, 82)
Your fellow Muslim nations of Arabs and Persians would never descent so low as to insult Christian Armenians because they respect us greatly, and because they’re ancient nations, too, who contributed immensely to the world civilization in poetry, literature, arts and sciences, medicine, military art, architecture, trade and commerce. But you insulted my religion because you’re a Turk, whose ancestors were known to the world as ‘barbaric’ and unimaginative people.
May God give you wisdom…
Well, guess what? Not many real Turks entered Anatolia and those who did were ‘warriors’ yes, but all men…so, they took native Armenians as wives…which means that in a very short time period, their offspring were all half-Armenian. Add to that, for hundreds and hundreds of years, every sultan had only non-Turkish wives….meaning that the ruling eschelon of the empire was also, essentially, non-Turkish. This was a very smart method of using their much more sophisticated subjects to their advantage, but it also meant that they respected them and treated them fairly well, at least compared to how minorities were treated in other parts of the world at that time. The ruling Turks were not only warriors, but actually very good people managers. As a result, ‘Turkish’ is actually not an ethnicity at all at this point, but more a state of mind, since ethnically, all ‘Turks’ are of mixed background. That’s why Ataturk, who wasn’t even ethnically Turkish himself, felt so comfortable getting rid of the last traces of the original Turkish culture…down to people’s family names…and replaced them with bogus names that meant nothing. He had no real connection to anything Turkish….he was Ottoman of course, but not Turkish. Armenians were always much more ‘Anatolian’ than any Turks ever were, that’s for sure…because they were the natives, but over time, they adopted the language of their rulers, not unlike the natives of Central America who adopted Spanish.
Karekin –
You’re back with more nonsense. It’s alien to my ears to hear that nomadic Seljuk and Mongol tribal conquerors, ‘warriors’ as you say, entered ‘Anatolia’ in 11th-13th centuries AD. There is not and has never been such a geographical toponym in history as ‘Anatolia’; it’s a modern Turkish novelty. The area is known to historians as Asia Minor, whereas the local area populated by the Armenians is known to geographers as Armenian Plateau or Armenian Highlands.
Seljuks’ and Mongols’ intermarriages with Armenian women pursued the aim of establishing barbaric nomads as noblemen. To achieve this objective, interbreeding with more settled, more civilized nations was imperative for them. Subsequently, Armenians are NOT known form the historical and ethnographic perspectives as being ‘Anatolians’ first of all, like I said, there was no such a toponym in history, and, secondly, because Armenians belong to a distinct Indo-European family of nations. Thirdly, Armenians never essentially ‘adopted’ the language of their rulers, many of them knew it as the second language because they were subjects of the Ottoman Empire, just like people like me who lived in the Soviet Empire, and were required to know Russian in addition to my native Armenian. Armenians were able to mostly preserve their national identity and language under different rulers.
You’re correct in stating that all Turks are of mixed background because throughout centuries they deliberately interbred with a great number of other, more civilized, nobler peoples: Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Jews, Georgians, Arabs, Slavs, etc.
And, yes, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk was of Jewish origin and a Freemason. Not to say anything about his sexual orientation…
I love the way how everyone joins hands to insult Turks…
To ones who are insulting rather than defending their cause:
Do you really have lives? Or do you have issues with your life and try to take it out on something?
Because if you do, you may go on spitting hatred here, just to keep safe the real living people.
Regards,
Ataturk: “The destiny of the boy born in Salonika in 1880 was in no way forseen, or desired, by the mother who gave him birth, and called him Mustafa. Her name was Zubeyda and the father’s name was Ali Riza. She was a Macedonian Turk and he an Albanian, both Turkish subjects and faithful Moslems. Other earlier, unknown blood strains coursed in this boy, just as in those of us who call ourselves Americans. Turkey also has the virility that comes from the blending of many blood streams. But there was never a question in Mustafa’s mind that he ws anything but Turkish. .. (revolutionary….xenophobic). Turkey, Key to the East.
btw, I have no prejudice against liberals and gays.
If future generations in my family years from now discover they have a little Jewish or Armenian blood, would you consider them to be Jewish or Armenian, in spite of the fact that they are more English, German, Swedish or whoever else they mix with and they go to Protestant Christian churches?
In a few generations, no one of them will have kept in contact with or know much about their ancestors.
As to Ataturk being Jewish, it is not known for sure if there even was only a drop of it in his blood?
The fact that many muslim Turks formed a racist ideology with pan turan at its center, following in the steps of Genghis Khan (who invented genocide) and Timerlane, has more to do with the genocide than Jewish conspiracy or freemason conspiracy theories.
I think that is why Jews in Israel wonder who will really remember or care about the Holocaust ten generations from now? History can be distorted and the victims will be long gone. Each year, the world seems to care less and less. When this generation is gone (the children and grandchildren of genocide survivors), who will remember when the Turks, Nazis or others try to hide their guilt and no one will oppose them.
most turks are so mixed, they don’t even know what or who they are. so many of them are mixed armenian, greek, jews, assyrians, kurds…..
Takuhi…let’s stop dissecting historical minutia…it makes absolutely no difference if you call it Asia Minor and/or Anatolia. In fact, who cares? My family is from there….and it makes no difference what it’s called. Mexico used to be called something else, too. So what? There are bigger fish to fry. The point is, Armenians need to stop this ‘us and them’ mentality….because we are all of the same land. Whether you like the historical record or not…you have to deal w/ the results, and you can’t do that by attempting to turn the clock backwards. We all must move forward in a positive way.
genocide denial,
By your comment you not only concur your name, but also sound like the monster of all times, Adolf Hitler: “After all, who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?” Well, if kinds like you don’t, WE DO. And not only the genocide of the Armenians, but the Jewish holocaust, golodomor of the Ukrainians, genocide of Cambodians, Rwandans, Darfurians, etc. This is all-human history, all-human tragedy, and genocides are crimes against the whole humanity. Recognizing the crimes, extending apology to the victims, keeping and passing the memories of these crimes from generation to generation are absolutely necessary so that future generations of the mankind be aware of them to minimize the risk of cruelty and unspeakable barbarity against fellow human beings, to be more considerate, open-minded, and tolerant towards each other. And you’re dead wrong that the world seems to care less and less about such crimes. May the increasing number of foreign nations recognizing the Armenian genocide be a reminder for people like you that this world is not filled with ignorance and indifferentism alone, but also with knowledge, understanding, and compassion.
You say you’d have no problem with discovering your family having Jewish or Armenian blood? Then why wait for future generations? Act now. Raise your voice against the discriminatory Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code and I’m absolutely positive that you’ll witness a massive wave of revelations from millions of Turks as to being of non-Turkic and non-Muslim origin. Why wait? You hope that in a few generations all will be forgotten? How gravely you’re mistaken… Or, perhaps, maybe it will given the artificial nature of your nation, but certainly not with homogeneous nations like Armenians. Genetic memory is a very serious and obstinate thing, you know… And documentary-based history is a discipline that comes to denounce lies and distortions of the present. Therefore, criminals, falsifications, revisionists, and denilaists like Ottoman Turks or Nazis will always be unearthed and exposed. Make no mistake…
Karekin, then following your logic the male half of my next-of-kins can break in your house (and I apologize for such an untypical for Armenians comparison, rather cruel, I admit, sorry); slaughter every living thing in it, destroy it to the ground; scorch the lawn, trees, and bushes; ruin sculptures and shrines that you erected; declare them as being of handwork of other people; convert children to an alien religion; and then change the name of the street where your house stood for 3000 years and declare that it’s been theirs for millennia? And then when you’d cry out to them to repent for the crime, you’ll be told to “stop this ‘us and them’ mentality….because we are all of the same land.” I’m sorry, I’m having trouble comprehending you logic. What is bigger fish to fry? I read somewhere in your comment that building the remnant of our homeland, the Republic of Armenia, is important. Indeed, it is, but how on earth a mere apology from Turks can denigrate building a strong and prosperous Armenia?
And I’d perhaps repeat for the last time. It DOES matter if you call it Asia Minor or Anatolia, because by calling it Anatolia you latently concur that Turks inhabited the area for all times, since the term is their newest creation. Whereas historians, ethnographers, demographers, geographers know the area as Asia Minor, which was inhabited by many nations, including Armenians. Why pretend that it wasn’t? Why would Turks, and you portray them as different, modern, civilized, would deny the fact that, yes, other peoples inhabited the area before the 14th century and before 1915? What’s going to happen? Apocalypses?
And I’m tired to repeat this trivial fact: we are NOT from the same land, or let me re-phrase it: we are from the same land ONLY beginning the 11-13th centuries AD. But the ethnogenesis of the Armenians, as you know, goes WELL beyond 11th-13th centuries and onto the 2nd millennium BC. Why are you trying to impose parity, juxtaposition on essentially disparate parties? Disparate in every sense: ethnic, racial, linguistic, religious, cultural, civilizational?
On the final note. Yes, the clock cannot be turned backwards, but there’s no such a thing in history as ‘result.’ What you see as ‘result’ in this very point in time will be different 20, 50, or 100 years from now. Armenians living in their ancestral homeland up until 1915 was also a ‘result’ at the time, wasn’t it? But look what happened… We need to believe that historical circumstances change and NOTHING is permanent, and moving forward in a positive way by no means implies that we must forget historical facts, use renamed geographical areas, equalize unequal, diverse peoples, etc.
Don’t misunderstand what I said. I said I hope no one forgets. I said it is a tragedy and would be further tragedy if no one remembers.
I know of and remember the Armenian genocide and the Holocaust. Au contraire, ma cher, I know and care a lot.
My name is not genocide denial because I deny the genocides.
It is because many others do.
On the risk of being further misunderstood, I will not post any more.
It is shocking to me you interpreted what I said the way you did.
Harutyun,
how about armenians mixed with Turks? after all more than half of armenians have Turkish last names.
or, were your fathers Turks???
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article7053138.ece
Takuhi…you need to learn something about physics….for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Hate begets hate, anger begets anger, war begets war, but compassion begets compassion, kindness begets kindness. Try it…it works. Saying that many Armenians need to adopt a new attitude does not diminish the losses or sufferings that have taken place, and asking Turks to adopt a new attitude isn’t about letting anyone off the hook, but about changing the future and how we all look at the past. And, if anyone really wants to avoid an alien religion, they might do better to go back to the original Armenian sun-oriented pantheon and Zoroastrianism, instead of worshipping the ideas of some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks.
Moderators,
Are derogatory words insulting one’s religion or one’s religious feelings, like those found in the comments by Ahmet and Karekin, are at all allowed on your site?!
Hey, Karekin,
It’d be more appropriate, in my view, to address Newton’s law of motion to the Turks, because it is their action in the first place that generated the reaction of the Armenians. Don’t you think? Had they shown compassion by recognizing their crime and repenting, it’d no doubt generate compassion on the part of the Armenians. This is the only way how both people ought to look at the past.
P.S. Many people posting comments here may be faithful Christians. I, for one, am a strong believer in Jesus Christ. Posting derogatory words about any religion or knowingly offending other peoples’ religious feelings doesn’t give credibility to your peace-loving, humane appeals and certainly characterizes you as a dishonorable man. May God forgive you!
Dear Mt. Ararat – please learn how to read things in context and not have a knee jerk reaction. My comment about religion had to do with Takuhi’s apparent indignation that Armenians were forced to adopt an ‘alien’ religion. The point is that Christianity too, is an ‘alien’, non-Armenian religion, that’s all. I don’t want to walk into or open a religious debate or discussion here. If anything, however, the Armenian version of Christianity is probably my favorite, due to it’s oriental nature, the vestiges of Zoroastrianism that remain and its somewhat unique approach. All that aside, while I truly would like to see an honest apology from the Turkish govt, so this can all go away, I did appreciate the apology letter written and signed by 30,000 Turkish intellectuals. It was a good start and in some way, put pressure on their govt. to do the same. But realize, this can only come from within Turkey, if it is to be genuine and lasting, and cannot be imposed from outside. I guess that’s where we differ…I don’t believe banging the drum over and over is the proper way for Armenians to achieve their goals. It hasn’t worked in 95 years…so, maybe it’s time for a new strategy…one that has a different tone. I’ve seen and heard that from Pres. Sarkisyan. Hopefully, it will continue and we will continue to see a more mature response from Turkey.
I object to SasnaLerner also. I am totally anti-nazi and anti-Hitler. The insult was totally inappropriate as it is inappropriate for “fascist” people to parade around with pictures of Obama pictured as Hitler. These fascist people include followers of certain political candidates and certain settlers in Israel. Sorry people, Obama is no Hitler either.
You should save your insults for the real Hitler. By the way, homogeneous is really prejudiced isn’t it? (diversity and tolerance is the way, isn’t it?).
Calling the USA an artificial nation. OMG, it is not fascist nor communist. It is a democracy. Maybe you have never lived in one or understand the idea. USA is far better than the soviets or any other totalitarian state.
You trivialize the words “Hitler,” “Genocide”, etc. when you use them too loosely and inappropriately. I am for women’s and gay rights, something no Hitler will ever be.
I said doesn’t it make you anti-semitic or anti-Armenian if you or someone else finds out one of my relatives has Jewish or Armenian blood?
I said doesn’t it make you anti-semitic if you keep calling Ataturk Jewish, when it is not known he was Jewish; or if so, how very little Jewish blood he had; and that he was muslim and in no way concerned with a Jewish conspiracy to take over the world, but rather in pan turan.
I would like to also add: please be careful how you use the term “genetic” : in our genes, genetic engineering. Because it has racist connotations. What you probably should be referring to is: it is in our memory; it is part of our MORALITY, our teaching to be a moral human being, a choice left to human beings in their conscience.
Putting new genes in a person may not change his moral choices, his morality.
Maybe not.
Karekin – Have you ever considered converting to Islam, applying for Turkish citizenship, and changing your name to some Ahmet or Murat or Tallat? No, seriously? Because as a newly-cooked Muslim Turk your comments would sound more authentic and credible, so to speak, to the Armenian readers, rather than under the name ‘Karekin,’ a name of an honorable Armenian fedayi and political thinker Karekin Nzhdeh, an Armenian Braveheart who fought the Turks in the years of genocide. Even a Turk wouldn’t insult us in such a disgraceful manner as you did. You’re talking about compassion and kindness, but outrightly blaspheme our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, whose teachings were exactly about these all-human virtues. There must be something fundamentally wrong in your psyche, man, but as a Christian I’m not allowed to judge others in order not to be judged. May God be your judge…
Karekin;
I mean no offense to you personally or to your prophet Mohammad (as it’s below me to derogate anyone’s religious relics) but rare, out-of-the-ordinary species like you are called “up-end” or “shur tvats” in Armenia. The term refers to individuals who suffer from xenophilia, whose reasons for excessive affinity with and interminable admiration for alien cultures can be found in natal and adolescent experiences of their parents. These are essentially weak-willed and self-deprecating individuals who can easily resort to obsequiousness and genuflexion in virtually all life situations.
I believe you owe an apology for your misdemeanor for insulting Jesus Christ to all those commentators in this page who consider themselves his followers.
Karekin,
If you now have a knee jerk reaction so to misinterpret my unselfconscious reaction re: a specific passage in your comment, and not how it needs to be read in context, I’d like to introduce your blasphemous passage in its entirety. You wrote:
“And, if anyone really wants to avoid an alien religion, they might do better to go back to the original Armenian sun-oriented pantheon and Zoroastrianism, instead of worshipping the ideas of some carpenter from Nazareth and his magic tricks.”
No Muslim that I’ve met in great numbers and, actually, worked amongst them for years in the Middle East, would ever dare to call Son of God ‘some carpenter’ and his Mission and miracles as ‘magic tricks’ because even in Koran Jesus is a prophet; Mary, his mother, is revered by the Muslims as the whole Sura is dedicated to her, and Christians are considered ‘People of the Book’ whom prophet Mohammad specifically urged his believers to respect. But you did, and I’d like to add my outrage to that of several commentators in these pages in that you should be ashamed for your derogatory words and should apologize for insulting our Lord and Savior.
For your information, and the fact is so world-wide known that I don’t care whether you read it in context or outside the context, Christianity has been an Armenian religion for 17 centuries starting 301 AD and it has NEVER been alien to the Armenians because it were Armenians THEMSELVES who voluntarily adopted it, and not been forced to adopt. By adopting Christianity as their state religion Armenians thus became the first official Christian nation in the history of the human civilization.
I’d like to omit any counterarguments that a plethora of commentators here presented re: the paramount need for the Turks to apologize and repent for their crime (read: action) which will only then lead to compassion and forgiveness by the Armenians (read: reaction).
Karekin – Not only do you insult most sacred Christian relic, but you keep posting wicked and distorted views on these pages. One may suspect after reading them that, like some Turkish commentators here, you, too, may be on the Turkish payroll to try to mindflip Armenians. If you truly wish to see an honest apology from the Turkish government, then post comments in the Turkish discussion forums, not here. If you think the apology ‘can come from within Turkey, if it is to be genuine and lasting,’ then where has it been the past 95 years? The majority of observers believe that it is precisely because of the pressure imposed from outside that the Turks now fidget in their seat. Recognition hasn’t worked in 95 years for a variety of reasons, mostly geopolitical, economic, and military. Because up until 1991 there was a Cold War confrontation between the West and the Soviet Union, between the North Atlantic alliance and the Warsaw Pact. One fundamental reason is that the independent Republic of Armenia has become a player in the international arena for 18 years now. I do think that Diaspora’s efforts before Armenia’s independence have prepared a solid ground form Armenia, as a subject of international law, to advance recognition campaign in an official capacity. About ‘a new strategy that has a different tone’ that you’ve ‘heard’ from President Sarkisyan, first, you never know what politicians say out loud and what they really think; when they pretend to play the games imposed by the powerful and when they tacitly advance national agendas. Besides, Serge Sarkisyan does not represent the Armenian nation: he’s an unelected, unrepresentative president of Armenia and is not so respected in the Diaspora either due to his defeatist stance on idiotic Turkish-Armenian protocols. From the historical perspective, it is nations, not presidents who ultimately determine their destiny and stand to defend their dignity.
Jesus died on the Cross for your sins, too, Karekin. I strongly believe he loves you even though you insulted him by calling him ‘trickster’. Jesus said on the Cross: “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.”
And I can only forgive you, too.
In order to have an open discussion it is important to get away from the boundaries of a restrictive ideology and focus on some real issues, without the constraints of your own, personal mindset. Let’s just say that if you see fit to try and ‘insult’ a fellow Armenian by invoking the word ‘Turk’, don’t bother. That won’t work. You should also realize that Armenians have changed their religion fairly often in the course of history and that yes, there are Armenians of all faiths in the world…even quite a few Muslim Armenians, such as the Hemshinlis. I don’t care what religion you are, as long as you not only see fit to uphold Armenian rights, but also universal human rights. I will say it again, if you want to be treated well, you must treat others well, even those you don’t agree with, because when you stop doing that, you are putting yourself into a category that is not very flattering or respectable.
Karekin, you completely discreditted yourself in this discussion… May God give you wisdom.
Where is your apology, Karekin? Oh, sorry, I forgot that you act similar to your Turkish brethren who’ve made it a habit not to apologize for crimes or explicit religious insults…
Slayers prayand kill to live.
We pray to be killed.
At the end
No one will save us.
We prayed enough for the same god.
Park kez der, Astvadz mer…please open your minds.
Dear Readers,
This article is not real actually. There is no Ersin Ozbukey as Foreign Ministery’s undersecretary. This is a fake character from a fake news web site that is built on total prank.
Sincerely,
Koray.