Sassounian: Federal Judge Wrongfully Dismisses Lawsuit on Armenian Properties in Turkey

Federal Judge Dolly M. Gee, wrongfully claiming lack of jurisdiction, dismissed a lawsuit on March 26 filed by Armenian-Americans demanding compensation from the Republic of Turkey for confiscating their properties during the Armenian Genocide.

On July 29, 2010, Attorneys Berj Boyajian, Mark Geragos, Ara Jabagchourian, and Brian Kabateck had filed a class action lawsuit on behalf of Garbis Davoyan of Los Angeles, Hrayr Turabian of New York City, and all Armenians whose ancestors had real estate holdings in Turkey. The grandparents of Davoyan and Turabian had owned land near Aintab and Adana. The complaint also charged Turkey’s Central Bank and Ziraat Bankasi of unjust enrichment by benefiting from the proceeds of the confiscated Armenian properties.

While the Republic of Turkey and its two major banks contended that U.S. courts lacked jurisdiction over foreign entities due to sovereign immunity, the Armenian plaintiffs argued that the lawsuit should proceed due to two exceptions to the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA): Commercial Activity and Expropriation.

The federal judge ruled that both of these exceptions did not apply in this case. She found the banks’ commercial role in the U.S. to be minimal and unrelated to the claimed grievances. She ruled that the expropriation exception is also not valid because the property was not “taken in violation of international law.” She stated that the appropriation of personal property contravenes international law if: 1) it does not serve a public purpose; 2) it discriminates against or singles out aliens; and 3) the foreign government does not pay compensation. Judge Gee held that Armenians were citizens of the Ottoman Empire based on the Law of Nationality of Jan. 19, 1869, “which treated all persons found within the Ottoman Empire as Ottoman subjects.” According to the judge, this law “remained in effect until May 23, 1927, when Law No. 1041 stripped Turkish citizenship from the Armenians who had fled or were deported from the Empire during the events at issue in this lawsuit.” She concluded, “Legally, Armenians whose property was taken and who were deported from the Ottoman Empire were citizens at the time.”

In making these rulings, Judge Gee made a series of grave factual errors and misapplied the law. Her contention that Armenians were Ottoman citizens at the time of the genocide and deportations, and therefore not subject to U.S. court jurisdiction, is flatly wrong. In a telegram dated Sept. 9, 1915, Minister of Interior Talaat Pasha issued the following order: “The rights of Armenians to live and work on Turkish soil are totally abolished.” Thus, Talaat had revoked the Armenians’ Ottoman citizenship as of Sept. 9, 1915, making them non-citizens at the time of the expropriation of their properties. This fact alone invalidates the fundamental premise of the judge’s ruling that the Federal Court has no jurisdiction over Turkey’s expropriation of its citizens’ property.

Furthermore, since Ottoman citizenship was imposed upon native Armenians after their territory was overrun by Ottoman armies, Armenians were forced to become the unwilling subjects of a foreign invader. The judge’s erroneous ruling leads to the absurd and dangerous notion that the rights of people under occupation can be violated without any recourse to international law, once the conquering nation declares them to be its citizens.

Judge Gee committed a second serious error when she made the convoluted argument that the expropriation of foreign properties could have fallen under the jurisdiction of her court if carried out in conjunction with acts of genocide, because “genocide violates international law.” However, she ruled that the Armenian lawsuit does not meet the foregoing criteria because it involves a “political question” related to foreign policy that falls under the jurisdiction of the executive and legislative branches, not the judiciary. She completely ignored the fact that the lawsuit was not filed under a claim of genocide, but as a violation of international law that includes Crimes Against Humanity, not necessarily genocide. Apparently, the judge was not aware that the U.S. government on several occasions had recognized the Armenian Genocide, making her argument about the separation of powers completely meaningless.

There is a good possibility that the Federal Court of Appeals will reverse Judge Gee’s baseless and erroneous ruling. The plaintiffs’ lawyers could strengthen their case considerably by pointing out some of the factual errors in her ruling, as well as rectifying the shortcomings in their own filing.

Lawsuits against Turkey must be filed with utmost care, preparation, and professionalism, as they impact the interests of the entire Armenian nation, particularly on the eve of the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.

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Harut Sassounian

California Courier Editor
Harut Sassounian is the publisher of The California Courier, a weekly newspaper based in Glendale, Calif. He is the president of the Armenia Artsakh Fund, a non-profit organization that has donated to Armenia and Artsakh $917 million of humanitarian aid, mostly medicines, since 1989 (including its predecessor, the United Armenian Fund). He has been decorated by the presidents of Armenia and Artsakh and the heads of the Armenian Apostolic and Catholic churches. He is also the recipient of the Ellis Island Medal of Honor.

37 Comments

  1. “Lawsuits against Turkey must be filed with utmost care, preparation, and professionalism, as they impact the interests of the entire Armenian nation, particularly on the eve of the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.”
    You have lost all of them, and you will lose again if you insist.

    • Maxime,

      is that why you still have not sued TodaysZaman for libel and defamation ?

      for outing you, Maxime Gauin, an intern at USAK in Ankara, as an intelligence agent ?

      because you know you will lose ?

    • Dear Mr. Gauin:

      I find it intriguing that you are everywhere , you write on everything whether in Europe,USA and Turkey when it comes to Armenian questions. I must admit though I “admire” your persistence.

    • More importantly, the Turkish lobby’s absurd lawsuits against American educational institutions for teaching Genocide have all lost.

      he lawsuit was symbolic, and it established the jurisdiction of US LAW over Turk banks – a victory your associates can ill afford. Maybe a RICO case by a cheated Turkish depositor here will be next. Sacre Bleu!

      Mr. Gauin, it seems you are gloating over the temporary limited success your Turkish nazi idols have achieved. But soon, you will be swallowed by Muslim overlords anyway …you live in France, right?

  2. I love this part: “Furthermore, since Ottoman citizenship was imposed upon native Armenians after their territory was overrun by Ottoman armies, Armenians were forced to become the unwilling subjects of a foreign invader.”

    I wonder what the former citizenship was prior to the invasion :) Byzantine???? Was there a “citizenship” institution at all that time? Clearly, there was no independent Armenian statehood by the time of the Ottoman arrival, hence no Armenian citizenship. Why doesn’t Sassounian appeal to the Byzantine court? :)

    “Apparently, the judge was not aware that the U.S. government on several occasions had recognized the Armenian Genocide, making her argument about the separation of powers completely meaningless.” This has never happened.

    • Unrepentant Turkey? Armenian’s blood on her hands, in her mouth, in her veins and on her mind.

      What you fail to realize is that Armenians living on lands of historic Armenia and Armenians living on lands of neighboring regions never legally voted to accept your lawlessness and corruption. You claimed they were citizens of your imaginary human construct called an empire. You stole girls, boys, people, farms, trees, lands, buildings, and churches. When you began to annihilate Armenian women and children, after conscripting all able bodied males, you knew you would have to pay. You shall pay. You will pay. You will pay. You do pay. And you will continue to pay, until you repent and give Armenian lands back. Unrepentant Turkey? Armenian’s blood on her hands, in her mouth, in her veins and on her mind. Go look in the mirror, little Turk, and see your Armenian friend looking back at you. Are you the son of a stolen Armenian boy from 1544, a stolen girl from 1794, or both? A Serbian or Armenian girl stolen in 1822? During genocide?

    • @Ham… “there was no independent Armenian statehood by the time of the Ottoman arrival, hence no Armenian citizenship”.

      You obviously confused yourself while trying to make a ridiculous claim. Its like saying people two thousand years ago were not creditworthy because they had no credit history.

      The modern concept of citizenship with “legal papers” does not apply to periods of history where such instruments did not exist. By your argument there were no Ottoman “citizens” either, since they got documented strictly for taxation purposes.

      A citizen of a country is any inhabitant of a country associated with it as determined by that country through methods OF THAT TIME PERIOD.

      Just as the Ottoman empire consisted of several nations, one of them happened to be ARMENIA both before any Ottoman arrival AND after, as is evidenced by the concept of “Armenian Vilayets”. And when you say “Why doesn’t Sassounian appeal to the Byzantine court?”… perhaps you can first point to us what the successor state to the Byzantine court was/is? Does it go something like this… Byzantine court –> Ottoman court –> Turkish republic?

      The point of all this is, a nation may not be founded and legitimized as a result of acts of genocide, like the present republic of Turkey. This is what the pursuit of justice is all about for our nation.

  3. Harut; Was this lawsuit filed only on behalf of all Armenians in the USA? If so, are class action lawsuits that represent the entire Diaspora going to follow in an international court? I know exactly where my father’s land is – and I want it.

  4. Mr. Gauin, the misinformed and misguided decision made by the judge will be overturned on appeal. Perseverance and patience is on our side, as well as simple justice.

    What is your motivation in helping Turkey deny history?

    • {“What is your motivation in helping Turkey deny history?”}

      He is employed by an organization called USAK, in Ankara: is there a better motivator than money ?

      Here are some excerpts from Turkish TodaysZaman article about Mr. Gauin:

      [“This website is officially administered by one of our esteemed intelligence officials. Upon our order our employee has gone against the education in history he received and lobbies in favor of the Turks. His education in history strengthens his ties with the Turks. He is now serving as an intern at a nationalist think tank in Ankara. Thanks to his efforts, we learn the working principles of our Turkish colleagues and their attitude toward opponents in France — mainly Armenians and Kurds,” says the report.
      Sources told Today’s Zaman on condition of anonymity that the intelligence official in question is historian and researcher Maxime Gauin, who has written books against Armenian claims of genocide. He is currently an intern at the International Strategic Research Organization (USAK) in Ankara. Gauin earlier won a compensation case he filed against Movses Nisanyan, a member of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, who had accused him of being a collaborator of the “genocide.”]

      [….Sources told Today’s Zaman that the report is authentic. The report has a fourth level of confidentiality, which is restricted distribution.]

      Quite interesting then that Mr. Gauin – who has denied the TZ statements and who is not shy about suing for libel and defamation – has not sued Turkish TodaysZaman for libel and defamation.

      Inquiring minds want to know the reason: maybe the reason is that TZ statements are true and Mr. Gauin is afraid the truth will come out in a court of law under cross examination.

  5. Dear Harut,
    I really admire your expertise as rgds international law.Really!!!
    Did you study int´l law or is the above article of yours written with cooperation of a Legal Council?
    However, I am apt to think that like Maxime Gauin -above- writes,professionalism is the key to an otherwise very important Class Action-or even more than that- a ¨National Armenian Genocide survivors heirs¨ lodging THE CLAIM at the Int´l Courts of Law and other int´l important instances.
    For if we continue to act each one on his her own we are to shake the bases of our Age Old premise of DEMANDING JUSTICE FROM THE WORLD!
    for the world owes Armenians justice,not a Judge in this that corner of it.

  6. Let’s say Armenians win these lawsuits.. then what? Turkey will just accept the ruling and return the properties? Seems like a lot of time and energy spent on getting some publicity.

  7. Now i have found the answer to the question why armenians refrain from bringing a lawsuit against Ottoman Empire in IJC.

    They are afraid of losing.

    • No, they are not afraid of losing. They are afraid of immoral, degenerate corruption.

    • The ‘denial of Armenians can never match the denial and blindness of Turks to the facts of what happened to the Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians of Asia Minor.

      Your pleasure at the difficulty of Armenians to achieve their long sought after justice is quite an ugly thing.

  8. We have not only lands there
    We have our DNAs’ there
    One day our DNAs will prove
    We not only own the lands…!!!
    We do not only have lands there…
    Our grandfathers skulls are there
    With open eyes…still…
    All the world knows
    They are first class killers and thieves…
    Godless race by all means…!!!
    They continue doing what they planned to do …
    By another ‘godless group’ like them
    Named godless judges…
    Thus…They support them to continue…!

    Sylva-MD-Poetry

  9. In our pursuit of justice and compensation we have currently reached a stage where current knowledge on the Armenian Genocide, and its popular perception and understanding by the vast majority of the international public opinion, falls short of the weight necessary to move any civil society in general to provide the mass support that can be a determining factor in the political outcome of the Armenian question. We are still relying on the “goodwill” of people to understand our quest for justice , whereas we all know in our daily interactions that while “goodwill” is part of the human relations, nothing trumps the persistent repetition of facts,facts and finally facts by all means made available by the modern communications world.Continuing and expanding education on the Armenian Genocide must be institutionalized so that people not only understand what the issues are, but they are also able to relate it to their own societal experiences.It is unfortunate that we still are inept in coming up with a unified,comprehensive and structured approach at all levels that disseminate knowledge about the Armenian Genocide, irrespective of the short term expectations or results.

  10. To rvdv above all…..
    You err,we know by now great Turkey over the centuries-especially past 60/70 yrs has been led to believe and gotten usesd to FREE , NON RETURNABLE HANDOUTS, maily of course ,from uncle Sam.
    Contrary to what you and a host of my compatriots here think,I do not believe in presssing for land return…
    That can wait jsut a bit more..
    What we can base our demands on ,has precedent…the Jewish one from Germany…..THAT OF BLOOD M O N E Y ….
    I ,e.g. want my uncle’s and grandfather’s BLOOD MONEY from great Turkey!!!!!
    This is what and where we can build our CASE upon ,do you follow what’m saying Avery,harut and others here on line..even Turks and Azerbababoons!!
    latter also are to be held for payment of BLOOD MONEY spilled during past 25 yrs at Sumgait and Baki!!!!
    Wake up Armenian!!!! get you attorneys *group of 500 strong BAR Association of L.A. to work onm that premise..I wish to hear from editor of AW*English section( mr. khatchik Mouradian in this respect.
    Also indeed from harut Sassounian our Journmalist Editor /activist!!!

  11. Harut writes:
    In a telegram dated Sept. 9, 1915, Minister of Interior Talaat Pasha issued the following order: “The rights of Armenians to live and work on Turkish soil are totally abolished.” Thus, Talaat had revoked the Armenians’ Ottoman citizenship as of Sept. 9, 1915, making them non-citizens at the time of the expropriation of their properties.
    comment: This is extraordinary news, and if true of course an important argument for the presence of genocidal intent. Harut does not give the reference. Does anybody have the reference?

  12. Great News this morning Armenian H1 TV Channel informs that a TURKISH LADIES DELEGATION IS IN YEREVAN TO MEET WITH COUNTERPARTS,IN ORDER TO ENHANCE BIZ-NIS(business) w/ea other…Oley!!!!!!Bravo!!!!
    We Armenians are good forgiving people.We know how to forgive, kiss and make up with people who evicted our parents/grandparents from milleni old habitat, confiscated whatever they had ,putting them on DEATH MARCH to Meopotomia!!!!!
    After two minutes same TV channel shows how thousands of J E W S have gathered in AUSHVITZ -mainly their young women and young men with Torch in Hand memorializaing the H O L O C A U S T!!!!
    Yerevanites can now celebrate what the Government and its head the pres. has been able to achieve!!!! at the cost of our 98 years mourning suffering strewen all over the Globe!!!
    YOU JUDGE WHO DESERVES TO BE PRESIDENT OF REPUBLIC OF ARMENIA now.One that so easily gives in ..for he is incognizant of Tloikish WRATH…HE IS SOVIET TRAINED TAVARISH mentality ,as Lenin had dictated and all people are BROTHERS!!!!
    YEAH EVEN THE bAKI sUMGAIT TURCO AZERIS WHO SLAUGHTERED aRMENIANS THROWING THEM FROM BALCONIES TO STREETS.wHY????
    bECAUSE ARTSAKH ARMENIANS LEGGALY OPTED TO BE SEPERATED FROM THEM.He does not see at least this recent one.ç
    `probably he thinks people of kars derzeroum and ine xtension Ankara Istanbulla are all ANGELS NOW, who willingly forget the past that some Armenian freedomfighteers wanted to disobey the yataghan and live free and fought in those cities..later to abandon them in light of Turoc soviet FRIENDSHIP!!!!
    Hurrah and thousand >Hurrahs to these armenian women who have just xstruck up friendhsip…
    Right now they are also (on same T.v.) talking aobut how the sim’pleton armenians fought with all their heasrts in it for the HAIRENAGAN BADERAZM…
    Forgetting how only few yrs ago the Ex soviet Russians now took over a f ew armenian industries for a meagre º120 million dollars debts…instead of restarting said factories and bestowing these upon the veterans or their heirs…
    This is how the Pioneragan trained Armenian still believes in they have not learnt the lesson from past.At all cost, to do BIZ, so as some repeat some will make a few bucks..forgetting that the other part will by and by penetrate into Armenian BIZ sphere and take over whatever is left there…gp tp work in Russia and send money home and bring in more Turks from Turkey …this is your best way of governing Armnenia!!!
    Tzeghasbanutyiun!!!! Genocide!!!no such thing!! or if there is it is just one day we go to Tsitzeernagabert and VOILA !!! we have done justic e to our parents and grandparents”!”””””””

  13. Sireli Gaytzag, շատ նէղուած էս. You have, of course, made some very good points, but those women have made your blood pressure readings too high. Turn the tv off and go and read Mamigon again or maybe the new 40 days of Musa Dagh. Ask your granddaughter to bring you a little paklava or maybe some nice flaky boerag with պանիր էւ սպնախ. Healthy. You have to take better care of yourself so you can keep fighting the good fight.

  14. I received information that the document on the decision to deprive Armenians of citizenship is from the Memoirs of Naim bey (the Andonian documents)! Even some historians who support the genocide thesis, for instance Erik Zurcher, claims that these documents are forgeries. They are seldoim referred to any more by historians. Further it is said by my source that Sassounian refers to the French Version of the Andonian documents (page 33- 34) because he declares that the telegram is dated to Sept. 9, 1915. But the funny thing is that in the English Version (the same document!) is dated to March 9, 1915 (page 15). There is so far no answer from others here in AW about this assertion.And nobody can help Harut with providing a reference foir this piece of information. I leave it to the participants to ponder on this.

    • Hi Ragnar: while we are pondering this, did you ask the secret person you received information from (hint, hint, French denialist) about them little Qurans supposedly found on supposed ‘Muslim’ skeletons ?

      Obviously you emailed your French denialist buddy working at USAK to ask for help, yet ‘forgot’ to ask him about the Qurans, because it messes up your (plural) denialist narrative ? Am I right or am I right ?

      You did promise to ask the Frenchman about thems little Qurans, didnt ya, pardner ?

      Oh, and about Erik Zurcher : [This opinion is shared by Dutch professor Erik-Jan Zürcher; Zürcher does however point to many other corroborating documents supporting the Andonian Telegrams assertion of core involvement and premeditation of the killing by the central CUP members.]

      Next.

  15. Thanks dear Perouz.
    Before I revert to more such outbusts of mine,I´d like to inform you that I feel better when I utter truthfull things.For instance above Avery is quite right and I agree with him,while sometimes ,I am at a loss and cannot believe what he writes as to present situation in Yerevan,Armenia.I just wrote my take on last night´s very serious interview being conducted with interlocutor with Vartan Oskanian.Please read that on another thread here at AW.We must understand that we <ARE ALL TOGETHER IN IT,whether it is Serge Sargsyan whom I addressed as Sireli Serge Sargsyan,for I have nothing personal agaisnt him..as a person.But if he makes erros -like anyone may do so-he me, you should bow out saying,I was wrong.For at hand is the destiny of a newborn republic ,that is our last chance of staying asa _STATE/Nation..otherwise we go back to being a pueblo/people…prior to our re independence in 1990/91-That mjuch must be observed and respected by SIMPLY ALL ARMENIANS.WE are all brothers and we are All armenians.i have respect for a man who is a Marxist,rather head of that political party in Ra.No not because of his belief in that line of ideology(but as a clever person) that sometimes he opines very correctly and it is beneficial for the nation.For me Tashnag is as good an Armenian as the aforementioend,if he puts first the nation´s rights to be on a free independent a nd hopefully by and by regaining all its rights ..and I mean ALL!!
    Best Hasgcoghin

  16. Hi Avery,
    you dodge the issue which is the authenticity of the alleged Talat Pasha document. If you dont say anymore about it, I note your dodge. If you feel the need to refresh documentation of the genocidal premeditation of the central CUP members, I will listen. As you know I dont have any definite opinion, the available data do not suffice to my mind, but I listen to arguments.
    I have already asked Maxime about the small Korans and I will ask again. Maxime, what you said about the small Korans attached to
    the skeletons of Turks killed by Armenians in 1915-18,by which one knows that the skeletons bewlonged to Muslims, are you serious? Or maybe yoiu will admit that you were just carried away by your intense wish to win a discussion, brother?— It was not Maxime who furnished me with the information on the Andonian source, it was an anonymous Turkish source which has provided me with a number of important informations, and with whom I have very good discussions, but he is more polite to me than some of you Armenains are – or used to be. I am proud to be the vehicle of arguments from all sides and sources. Arguments must be judged by their truth value and relevance, not by their source. And factual assertions must be independently checked. This is a long process – I need both the French and the English Andonian book version, and they must be had from libraries abroad. But then this is a small contribution to a process that – if properly publicised – will show who has the greatest and the smallest burden of proof in the end regarding the questions of what hapopened to the Ottoman Armenians in 1915-18 (and later). But since the Armenian side refused the Commission of Historians, headed by UNESCO, in 2005, claiming that everything has been satisfactorily proven (also the question of Armenians loosing their citizenship ALREADY IN MARCH 1915!!), I do not have hope for the realization of such a truth and justice commission, that is not before 2016, when the parties relaize the inconclusive nature of the campaigns as executed until now, and possibly realize that this is the only option to create a durable closure. But then in all probability you will also need the really interested outsiders who have no axe to grind (Lewy cliamed to do this, but obviously fell prey to his convictions on the exclusivity of the Holocaust).

  17. Yes, Gaytzag, you are right; we are in this together if we want our country to not only survive, but to thrive. I think that the primary problem that must be addressed is that our people are leaving our country in the hundreds of thousands. No democratic country on earth would tolerate that without taking drastic measures to change the underlying causes for such a horrific voluntary exodus. It cannot continue. In tandem with this is that our people do not have the power of an unhampered, legal vote to affect change. They want change, but they feel powerless to affect it, so they leave. They know that without change, tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow will be the same; the country’s wealth will be drained and they will remain in poverty. We have to start with a legal vote that echoes the voice of the people. In leaving, they are telling us that they will no longer endure the Soviet legacy being imposed on them; they want a clean vote count.
    Many thanks to AW for the new design of these pages. It is very crisp, modern, absolutely wonderful!

  18. Avery, please keep us posted on anything you find out about the Magic “Small Kurans” that can survive intact in spite of sleet, rain, snow, sun, winds, earthquakes, donkey poop, worms, micro-organisms, vultures, wild dogs, wolves, and the acidity in the effusions of decomposing human flesh surrounding them. You know that this is going to put the archival storage people right out of business.

    • Perouz:

      I have my best soil, materials and b___s___ scientists working on it.
      Will update my compatriots and denialists on any breakthrough.

  19. Ragnar:

    1) Regarding the authenticity of Naim-Andonian documents.
    Addressing your contention of a dodge: I gave you a brief retort, referencing Erik-Jan Zürcher, but it apparently did not register.
    Here: {“Oh, and about Erik Zurcher : [This opinion is shared by Dutch professor Erik-Jan Zürcher; Zürcher does however point to many other corroborating documents supporting the Andonian Telegrams assertion of core involvement and premeditation of the killing by the central CUP members.]”}
    Let me expand on that then.
    I am not an AG scholar or historian: and neither are you. I am aware that there is controversy. Andonian himself has acknowledged some validity to the critiques of his book. The denialist camp has seized on some inconsistencies in one book – one book – to deny the entire AG. The discussion about Naim-Andonian documents has been going on for decades: I am not going to waste time debating minute details that experts, such Vahakn N. Dadrian, Niall Ferguson, Richard Albrecht, etc. have already examined extensively, and have adequately responded to denialist abjections.
    To me it is very simple: the Andonian document and the controversy are a distraction seized on by AG denialists to engage Armenians in endless, fruitless debates of minutiae – to run out the clock. Fat chance.
    The disingenuous AG “truth and justice” commission or fake Commission of Historians and all other Denialist commissions are DOA.
    The jig is up: we know all about it, although some naïve, or stupid, or compromised Armenians still take the bait.
    We can throw the Andonian documents away: all other evidence and documentation is more than enough. Far more than enough.
    Both direct and circumstantial evidence is overwhelming: an Armenian Genocide; preplanned, organized, supervised, and executed by Turks.
    Turks and their hired guns in academia, and volunteer Turcophile denialists such as yourself, are desperately trying to prove the Earth is flat.
    All others – Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, Alevis (Dersim) – lie, and only Turks are telling the truth.
    The same denialist arguments about AG have been made about the Jewish Holocaust.
    No order signed by Adolf Hitler authorizing the ‘Final Solution’ has ever been found. The same ‘doubts’ about ‘intent’ have been similarly raised.
    There is a whole industry that even today purports to ‘prove’ with supposedly ‘scientific analysis’ (e.g. amount of ash residue, radar imaging,..) that there were no extermination ovens. Books have been written ‘proving’ the Holocaust did not happen.
    The difference is that we Armenians are not wealthy enough, politically powerful enough, organized enough to put denialists in jail – yet – like Holocaust denialists are put in jail: say hello to Ernst Christof Friedrich Zündel.
    The other main difference is that the German nation proved itself to be a civilized nation, rising far above its brief descent into barbarism and savagery. And no, it is not only because they lost the war: no one forced Chancellor Brandt to kneel; it was a genuine act of remorse and contrition.
    One of your Turkish friends, EU (!) Affairs Minister Egemen Bagis, recently compared the Assyrian Genocide to “masturbation,”: that is the difference between civilized Germans and your love interest Turkish denialists.

    2) Your role: {“. I am proud to be the vehicle of arguments from all sides and sources.”}
    You present yourself an honest broker, in the middle, supposedly trying to discover some ‘truth’ after sober, reasoned ‘debate’ and ‘discussion’. Quite laughable really.
    I do not know if you really believe that yourself, or are pretending, but I can assure you based on detailed readings of hundreds of AW posts in about 2 years that no one on our side buys it. (at least those who post).
    You yourself have publicly confessed your love and infatuation for Turkey: so how can you possibly be unbiased ?
    Your acknowledged friends, e.g. Maxime Gauin, Justin McCarthy, are notorious denialists: so how can you possibly be unbiased ?
    Then there is the long history of AW posts of your condescending attitude and disdain towards Armenians and the victims of AG.
    (you know what I am talking about).
    But aside from all that history, the recent matter with the little Qurans and the clothing clearly demonstrated that you, Ragnar Naess, are engaged in AG Denialism under the guise of ‘debate’, ‘discussion’, etc.
    2a) When the little Qurans were first mentioned by your friend/brother Maxime, you said absolutely nothing. Nothing.
    After Perouz and myself pointed out how ludicrous the claim was on its face, you suddenly found yourself questioning its credibility: Right ?
    The forgery was so obvious that you would have jumped on it immediately – IF you were not biased: yet you didn’t, because you are pro-Turkish and anti-Armenian. After Perouz and myself pointed it out, you had no choice but to question it to maintain the fiction of your impartiality.
    Otherwise, your bias would have been too obvious.
    As I have said before: you are an educated and intelligent man. A sophisticated, master-level denialist.
    2b)The other item was the clothing: as noted before, I am no scholar of Islamic religion, but knew that Quran requires that Muslims be buried covered head to toe in a shroud. You either didn’t know or knew and deliberately overlooked it because it did not fit your denialist agenda.
    In either case, clear evidence of your lack of knowledge on the subject or bias.
    How can you then pretend to ‘debate’ the authenticity or lack thereof of a document that has been examined over decades by dozens of real experts ?
    ——-
    So there you have it.
    And the dodge by your friend/brother denialist Maxime Gauin re the little Qurans is noted and on record.
    (can we henceforth call it the “The infamous little Qurans forgery by Maxime Bey” ?)

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