YEREVAN (A.W.)–On Aug. 4, Gallup published the results from a 2009 poll showing that over a third of participating Armenians wanted to leave Armenia permanently—a staggering 39 percent, to be exact. The percentage was highest in Armenia out of the 10 Commonwealth of Independent States (CIS), as well as the former CIS member Georgia and associate CIS member Turkmenistan.
Around a third as many poll participants from neighboring Georgia and Azerbaijan desired to move to another country permanently. Their percentages were 14 and 12 percent, respectively.
The study further revealed that about the same number of participants from Armenia (39 percent) wanted to study or participate in a work-study program abroad—the highest in the polled countries—while 44 percent would like to move for temporary work—the second highest after Moldova (53 percent).
Moldova is second to Armenia in the percentage of those willing to migrate permanently. The Gallup report cites the large Armenian Diaspora—“one of the largest…in the world”—as at least a partial explanation of the poll results. “In countries where residents are among the most likely to want to migrate permanently, the percentage of respondents who say they have people outside their own countries whom they rely on is also higher,” it states. “A majority of Moldovans (54 percent) and about a third of Armenians (32 percent) and Belarusians (30 percent) say they have relatives or friends living in another country whom they can count on for help.”
Overall, the Gallup poll shows that in the 12 former Soviet states, an estimated 70 million people would like to migrate temporarily and 30 million permanently.
The results were based on one-on-one interviews with adults aged 15 years and older; the findings were subsequently projected to the total population of each country, using 2008 World Bank population estimates. At least 1,000 interviews were conducted in Armenia.
To view the full report, visit www.gallup.com/poll/141746/million-cis-migrate-temporarily-work-study.aspx.
Nanore Barsoumian
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The wide spread of corruption is Armenia’s number one enemy…
I wonder who sponsored this poll. The Diaspora already knew that many would like to leave Armenia. If this poll is even roughly close to the reality, it is psychologically devastating, and it gives our enemies more encouragement to suffocate Armenia. I hope that this poll will shock the authorities to work on improving the social conditions of the people and establish a lawful society. The government should create a welcoming atmosphere to attract diasporans to settle in their fatherland and increase its population. But the government has done the opposite by allowing criminal elements to control the country and demoralize the people to the point of depopulating the fatherland.
I could not agree with you more Murad.. You hit the nail on its head..
It is absolutely devastating to see these numbers… even though it is not a shocking surprise to any Armenian living out of Armenia because our own govt gives rat’s a***** what happens to her people as long as her corrupt and huligan govt officials’ bellies are fat and full…
it is just breaks my heart that our own govt allows such a gem to cramble apart and have her people wanting to leave instead of staying to rebuild and make it stronger…
Thank you
Gayane
Corruption is everywhere in the world.
I agree that this is sad but not surprising. For may of us in the diaspora, Armenia is a romantic notion of the image created by our parents and grandparents. It is the noble
repository of 3000 years of our heritage and serves to inspire our fight against assimilation. For the Armenians in the homeland, it is a story of economics. It is easy for us in the diaspora to talk about Armenia with our six figure jobs and assets. For our breathren, they also have dreams…. sometimes Armenia cannot fullfill those dreams and they take their dreams elsewhere. They are no different from any of us. The impact, however, is much more significant to our nation.
The most important thing that we can do as Armenians of the diaspora is to support the economy of Armenia… from small ways to big. With opportunity comes hope and the work ethic of the Armenians will do the rest. But we need to help. Think of the Jews in the 1950’s building Israel. That is our job. That is where we are. With hope that percentage will drop and Armenia will emerge as the nation my grandparents dreamed of.
“Think of the Jews in the 1950′s building Israel.”
May I respectfully point out that Israel was receiving *billions* from Germany in the form of reparations, and those reparations were necessary (though not sufficient) to sustain that country.
Can we dump this stupid comparison with the Jews once and for all, please?
Armenians always thrive for better and if they cant get it in their country that drive takes them elsewhere. That’s the downside of people who have the drive. However, I don’t think the number is too high for the region. It’s also little bit higher for Armenians because there are so many of them in diaspora setting examples of better life that many people there cant resist. They are also the magnet on which people count to rely on to survive in foreign lands. Without hope of help in settling on foreign soil from family, friends and diaspora most wouldn’t even think of moving. So, blame yourself first:)
It’s estimated that over 6,000 people leave Armenia each month. Many come to Turkey to work and eventually live. There are around 70,000 Armenians who are legal Turkish citizens living and working in Turkey (mostly in Istanbul), while another 100,000 are illegal. We tolerate and accept them, even though, just like the illegal Mexicans in this country take away jobs from Americans, these 100K illegals take away jobs from Turks. Thanks to the new immigration law in Arizona, this has set a precedent to back up Erdogan’s statement saying that he was under no obligation to take care of those 100,000 illegals in Turkey! All he has to do is point to Arizona’s law!
So be careful in your future actions and bizzare statements…we may just enact Arizona’s new law ourselves!!
What do you expect when the ruling thugs steal the elections, all the money, have all the wealth and don’t allow any counter movement or counter opinion or even allow a middle class to exist? Sarkisian and his cronies are thieves par extraordinaire. How do you blame anyone who would want to exit? Correct me if I’m wrong but Robert Kacharian is said to be worth hundreds of millions of dollars. How is that possible other then theft?
Stepan’s remark
‘The most important thing that we can do as Armenians of the diaspora is to support the economy of Armenia…
… the work ethic of the Armenians will do the rest. But we need to help!
Think of the Jews in the 1950′s building Israel. That is our job. That is where we are.’
is aboslutey true! We can and should learn from the Jewish people’s success.
Amen Stepan jan.. Amen…
I was born and raised in Armenia… I have been away from my homeland since 1989…I have not been myself ever since.. I felt like my heart is still in Armenia.. I can’t find my place in US.. no matter how much I have accomplished..
My father’s side (all 100+) are still in ARmenia.. we do everything in our power to help them as well everyone else that need a helping hand.. unfortunately, our family is not well off so we can’t give as much as possible… but we do what we can.. and that is what every Armenian outside of Armenia should do. help with whatever and however they can..
We only have one birthplace and it is our duty to protect her…
Gayane
In which city of Armenia did they conduct this survey ( The Armenian wish to live Hayasdan permanently ).
This survey most likely was done in Yerevan and 1000 citizens of Yerevan do not represent Armania.
Robert, Armenians that survived the genocide found homes all over the world. We don’t have problems anywhere or with anyone other then you Turks. It seems that you Turks have the problem as Europe doesn’t want you and knows all too well that a. Turks will exit to Europe by the millions taxing the European system and of course creating brothels and sex shops everywhere. (It seems you people are experts in that department), & b. Turks do not assimilate well. Just ask the Germans whether they, given the choice, would ship all of you back to Turkey. Of course they would. Also your stupid analogy of Armenians and Mexicans is totally wrong. It’s more like Armenians and American Indians as really modern Turkey was founded upon the mass murder and theft of the Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians. So expelling Armenians in Turkey would the same as expelling American Indians in America. Let’s face it, your whole existence is of criminal origins. Your people haven’t changed much since the Armenian Genocide.Your people should be very proud.
Of course Robert (the Turk) has to interfer with his absurd and Anti- Armenian remarks by stating that Armenians leave Armenia to go to Turkey ..ARE YOU OUR OF YOUR BRAINWASHED and NATZI MIND??? I rather die of starvation then move where you are..
Also, SIR, all the illegal Armenians living in Turkey ARE AND WILL BE the rightful owners of the land.. one should tell YOU to get the heck out of our lands because you are the illegal person walking on the lands that do not belong to you and your kind.. such nerve….. unham mart…
i simply laugh at your comments….
Gayane
I’m not sure if he was living in Turkey or Arizona, but it doesn’t matter you couldn’t pay me to live in either place.
Robert, I find it incredible and almost amusing(I agree with Gayane) that all the opportunities that Turks have had to advance their society, you will continue to represent them with such uncivilized commentary. Do you feel the same way about the Turkish employment motivated migration to Germany and how you would expect them to be treated? When you use phases like ” we tolerate” and “so be careful in your future actions”. you remind me of your Ittihad ancestors and the current denial administration.
But what can we expect of a nation with a history of murdering its own citizens and as a result rendering themelves dysfunctional with the loss of doctors, pharmacists, lawyers, tradespeople and countless other infrastructure rolesas after the genocide of its Christian citizens.
Just remember, when you look to the east, you will always see Armenia and her people. Turkey must admit their crimes of the past, the truth will set you free and get on with building a modern relationship.
The funniest is that most of the others nations on the Gallup list that supposedly have less number of people willing to abandon their homeland are more “corrupt” (whatever that means) than Armenia – including the West’s darling Georgia and Azerbaijan. Could it be that the problem with Armenia is actually her self-destructive and ignorant population (both in and out of the country), ready in a heart beat to cut and run? Nevertheless, these “polls” are commissioned by foreign interests towards political purposes. It’s sad that we Armenians are too stupid to see what’s going on around us.
Dear Gayane,
this Robert guy likes to put his nose into every business, which is matter to Armenians…just don’t bother and do not get upset…his Kemalist mind is same as AKP, Islamist, leftist, or Ergenokons…..they are “Turk” and they have penal code 301…we don’t.. we talk openly and we don’t hide…we do for the best of our beloved Armenia.. and we will have the best country in Near East..all we need time and will power..
True Grish jan.. very true…
Gayane
Don’t come to America, i would never recommend it. The lifestyle, culture, people, it’s a mess.
Actually, i would rather say, if any person who comes from any conservative country, then America is not for you.
It’s capitalism, people are constantly competing with eachother, they discriminate eachother, they are racist towards eachother, there is segregation between the different races and where they live, the crime is frightening, the gun lawas are too open and in some states people can carry them openly, ILLEGAL DRUGS and kidnapping most in southern borders, and also if you are not willing to accept the American way of life and most of which is very open and loose, then you will NOT survive here.
And unless you are psychologically and physically strong and you truly understand the American way, then you won’t make it here.
Hey Grish,
So, Armenians don’t put their noses into everyone else’s business, particularly anything to do with Turkey, Turks, Azerbaijan or Azeris? Guess again!
Hey Gayane,
I’m confused about your statement, so I just thought asking is a good idea. You wrote:
“all the illegal Armenians living in Turkey ARE AND WILL BE the rightful owners of the land..”.
So, what you said may be understood as Armenian should be able to turn back (live-work-vote legally) freely. Or you may mean that Armania will-should take these lands back?
If you meant the former, what do you think the status of them shuld be in legal terms? Should they be considered as a citizen-minority o what?
If you meant the latter, for you, what is the probability that Armenia may be able to occupy these lands/ or what is the chance that an international court would give these lands to Armenia?
thank you
HEY is for the horses teoman… you should address people with a proper way.. such as…
Hi Gayane or Hello, or just Gayane…
So that said…
Teoman,
What I meant and I am going to say this one last time whether or not you know this or not.. :
but before I continue.. not sure if you are a Turk or an Armenian but I am assuming you are of Turkish descent wanting to know our plan…but if I am wrong, my apologies…
What I meant is this:
Armenians are NOT and WILL NOT be illegal no matter how Robert and Turks like him spin it….. how can one group of people be illegal on the lands that belong to them… you DO know that Armenians were indigenous people in Turkey and the lands my ancestors lived were taken by mass slaughter and deportation right??? if you did not know, hope this piece of information was a little history lesson for you….
Now how we will get our own lands back and live on our own lands as her rightful owners … (and not as illegals as our brainwashed Robert keeps calling those Armenians who live in Turkey and not realizing that he is the illegal body living in Turkey)is something you should not concern yourself with..again, i don’t know if you are a Turk and the intentions behind your questions……. but all you need to remember is once that happens…you will know ……..
Thank you and have a great day..
Robert.. as always.. it is just hopeless…
Gayane
Hello Gayane,
Firstly, I did not mean to insult you by calling “hey”. if this is a thing made you angry, sorry about that. Secondly, I’m a turk from konya and i didn’t try to hide it either. I just wanted to understand your point, there is no hidden intentions behind it, i’m just an ordinary guy =)). I asked you this question because what i think is that Armenians and turks should understand each other properly and communicate directly in order to end this conflict between them. My aim was to learn your “red lines” in this issue.
So, let me share my own observations:
Armenians’ main red line is their history (specifically genocide), they will never discuss on the existence of the genocide. Second red line is their historical existance in the land i guess. (Correct me if i’m wrong please – again i’m guessing, not trying to insult you, not trying to imply something)
Turks’ main red line is the land. It’s a kind of an obsession for them. They will never argue about the borders of the country. These borders are called Misak-i Milli. I don’t think that history is a red-line for us, even if it seems like.
So, within this framework, I hope there exist a common point, which our children (if not us) will be able to reach. I don’t think that full citizenship would be a problem for the government if those armenian people accept.
Again, i don’t write these things to fight, if there is something very offensive for you in this message, believe me, I don’t try to mean it.
best
teo
Teoman, when you say “Turks’ main red line is the land. It’s a kind of an obsession for them,” you mean land of other, nobler and more ancient and more civilized peoples’ land? If yes, then I must agree it is an obsession with the Turks starting from your forefathers’ Sekjuk and Mongol invasions into the area and the consequent extermination of all native peoples under the Ottoman regime. Armenians will never accept full citizenship in Turkey because it’ll look idiotic to become citizens of a state that wiped out two thirds of Greater Armenia from the face of the earth. Secondly, because the Turks are unrepentant for committing genocide of ancient inhabitants, such as Assyrians, Greeks, and especially the Armenians whose loss was the greatest, there is no guarantee that an unrepentant Turks will not do the same to their “new” Armenian co-citizens. For the Turks land maybe the red line, but so is the land precious for others and Turks who appeared on the world map only in the 14th century are not an exception. There are other ways that our lands could be ours again whether or not Turks will like it. Disintegration of your state, founded on the blood and bones of millions of slaughtered, mutilated, burnt and buried alive, starved to death Christian people, is just one of them. Never forget about the Kurds: I think they hold the key to the beginning of your end.
Hello Teoman,
Thank you for your comment….My apologies if I came off a bit too angry… I also appreciate your genuine sincerity (hopefully it is what you want to portray) as I have met only few Turks who want to learn, and understand what can be done to fix these red marks…
however, we all do respect, i don’t think having a citizenship will work or be accepted.. it simply will not suffice….. like Teylerian said…we have no guarantee that our people will have protection from a second Genocide happening…
Also, even though I understand that Turkey is obsessed with her lands, i hope you understand that those lands never belonged to Turks to begin with…having said that, when a Turk like Robert comes here and tells me that my people are migrating from Armenia to live in Turkey, and they are considered illegals, my blood pressure goes up… you know why? because that is ignorance speaking, that is racism talking, that is hatred talking, that is someone whose brain was filled with false history and anti ARmenian BS… You said it yourself.. Turks dont’ care about the history.. I agree with you 110%.. The reason they dont’ care about the history is because if they find out the truth, the true history of their ancestors, and how barbaric their forefathers were, one would not want to associate themselves with being a Turk.. The true history will be much too painful….which is why they are fighting soooo hard to cover up the history and the truth.. have you ever questioned as to why would a country who says Genocide never happened or could not happen by the hands of the Turks, spend millions of dollars (i would not be surprised if your tax money and those unfortunate Armenians living in Turkey who are being taxed) to cover your people’s bloody past and history…..???
If you truly want understand where Armenians think, feel, want and dream about, we can always start here where you can share your thoughts and ideas as you have done and we can do the same .. as long as you are open to hear the truth…
Thank you for your interest…
Gayane
Teylerian,Jr:
When you use the term “disintegration” of our state, what exactly are you in reference to? Are you saying that you are not in favor of the integration of peoples there? If so, then you are nothing more than a blatent racist! Tell me, is a Christian life worth more (have more value and/or meaning) than a Moslem life? How about a Jewish one? What about a Hindu’s life? All, or some? Which one(s)?
Now, if you mean to use the term in a destructive manner, such as a nuclear holocaust, then your nothing more than a war monger with no regard to life or the environment! In that case, you are insane and need to be hospitalized in a maximum security mental asylum for the criminally insane. Or to be executed to prevent you from becoming another Stalin, Mao or Hitler, should you ever gain power and nuclear weapons!
So, which is it? Let’s see where your heart and mind REALLY are!
Dear Gayane and Teylerian,
first of all thank you for your comments. I think i have a counter argument for some parts of your messages. Let me summarize these parts.
Teylerian, in his message, argued that armenians will not accept citizenship because of this two reasons:
1. “it’ll look idiotic to become citizens of a state that wiped out two thirds of Greater Armenia from the face of the earth”
2. “there is no guarantee that (another genocide) an unrepentant Turks will not do the same to their “new” Armenian co-citizens”
Gayane indicated that she shares the same view about citizenship and referenced to the second point above.
My counter argument for the 1. reasoning: I follow the speeches of two Armenian citizens of Turkey whenever i can: Markar Esayan (a columnist in the national newspaper Taraf), and Sevan Nisanyan (I watched him on television several times). These people complains about lots of things in this country, as many turks also do. They are talking about genocide, human right abuses in the past and present, armenia-turkey relations etc. But it is clear for me and many more “neutral turks” to understand that they are not ashamed of – or angry with their citizenship of this country. They do desire more equal rights of course, but they are not against this state. So, if they can be a citizen intentionally why wouldn’t other armenias do the same? (Of course, given that equal representation – in all terms, not only about legal issues but education, history etc.)
Counter argument for 2nd response: You claim that armenians cannot-should not risk another genocide. But consider the flip side of the coin. There are many unofficial Armenian workers (I chose the word unofficially to indicate their legal status in the country, i am not refering to moral, historical issues. If it is offensive for you, we can call it to another word). These people cannot go to hospital when they are ill; they cannot call police when something happens to them; and the worst is that when they have a baby in turkey, they have to turn back thousands of kilometers to Armenia to get them nationality. So, it is also very risky. I think it is much more riskier way of life compared to a second genocide in a “foreseable” future.
I emphasise this citizenship, or “living together” issue very much because of this: In many comments, one of the main complain is that: “turks do not accept what their ancestors do to ours”. Well i wouldn’t choose the word “accept” there. Rather, “they don’t know…” is more precise, i guess. Let me illustrate my point: Under one of the other topic Raegg Naese shared a video which explains why/how Armenians condiser Cemal-Talat-Enver Pashas as hitlers of turks, and how Turks see them as heroes in contrast. I’m 24 years old, and until i watched it I hadn’t had any idea that you could have suffer from my honoring of these pashas. You see my point?: turks and armenians have to contact each other. Armenians have to explain their concerns face to face (their past in these lands, their suffering etc.). The reason is in Turkish politics and media, Armenia, Armenians, Karabagh all have low priority. We only remember Armenians when US president talks about genocide. So, i think “living together” is the most efficient way to solve problems.
It was a long message sorry about that. If something in it is rude for you, please just say and i can happily word it again in a more acceptable way.
thanks
teo
Robert,
First of all, let me say that you disgraced yourself in these pages by posting racist, intolerant, Armenophobic comments. One unaware would get an impression that it was the Armenians who mass slaughtered, forcibly deported, mutilated, raped, burnt and buried alive, and let die of starvation millions of Turks and not the other way round. And now Robert spits out spite and hatred towards those Armenians. Might it be a guilt complex that prompts you to show your angry side or you feel it’s hard to admit that your ancestors were mass murderers, rapists, mutilators, and soulless, heartless subhumans? Or both?
Regarding the term “disintegration.” You’re again showing the angry side of you because of the possible complexes I indicated above (or maybe just because of your “Turkishness”, meaning angry intolerance to the truth that can potentially insult your nation, but still the truth…). I’d easily re-direct your questions to you: are you saying that Ottoman Turks were in favor of the integration of peoples inhabiting Turkey long before the term “Turkey” appeared on the world map? Then as a result of their “integration” efforts might you know what happened to the millions of Assyrians, Greeks, and especially the Armenians living there. You descended as low as to call a person “blatant racist,” but how would you characterize the actions of your state at annihilating many indigenous races and denying the truth for 95 years? If it’s not racism, what is it according to you: tolerance and internationalism? As for the second question re: Christian life being worth more than Muslim, etc., I didn’t get the meaning since it was completely out of context of my comment. But as a separate note I’ll answer: no, I don’t see peoples in terms of religion and I don’t think Christina life is more worth that Muslim, Hindu, Jewish, etc. With the same “logic” of yours, however, I’d reiterate: do you think that Muslim life was more worth when millions of innocent Christian lives were exterminated by your forefathers? Don’t you know from Koran, as we know from the Holy Bible, that a human life can only be given and taken by God and not another human being? Then try to apply this universal truth to what your ancestors did to the whole Armenian civilization and find the answer as to who your state essentially is, OK?
Further, I meant no disintegration in a destructive manner, such as a nuclear holocaust, but you again descended as low as to call a person a “war monger with no regard to life or the environment,” or “an insane hospitalized in a maximum security mental asylum” or the one “executed to prevent from becoming another Stalin, Mao or Hitler” and other bull***. There must be something fundamentally wrong in your psyche, Robert, and I truly pity you. I have no doubt in my mind that had you been in a position to kill an Armenian, you’d do it again just like you savage forefathers did. In these pages you are a vivid demonstration of what Armenian believe the Turks are in their majority. Thank God that we also saw open-minded, liberal, and understanding Turks here, and we just hope that they will gradually prevail over psychopaths like you.
Having said this, I’ll try, nevertheless, to answer your questions. Disintegration of states can proceed in a variety of ways: I’d advise you to start with the Roman empire onward up until the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia. Nuclear holocaust has nothing to do with it; it’s just a figment of your “rich” and potentially hazardous imagination. Reasons for disintegration are many, but in case of Turkey—and it was only my prediction—the state may collapse because several factors may expedite the process, such as : (1)distortion of history of the formation of your state one day will have to be revealed and people would know that Kemalist Turkey was founded as a result of Turkish extermination of many native peoples inhabiting Asia Minor, their highly-developed civilizations, and scores of architectural monuments throughout the country testifying their Assyrian, Greek, Hittite, Armenian, but in no way Seljuk origin; (2)liberalization of society, removal of idiotic laws such as Article 301 of the Penal Code may inevitably lead to millions of people revealing their non-Turkish, non-Muslim identity that’s now suppressed by the state; (3)in case of removal of prohibiting articles in the Turkish legislation, true history may surface that’d demonstrate that Ottoman Turks’ atrocities against their Assyrian, Greek, and Armenian populations constituted a deliberate, centrally-organized extermination aimed at particular national, ethnic, racial, and religious groups, read: the genocide. I tend to believe that millions of people would want to urge the government to offer official apology and pay reparations to the descendants of the genocide victims; and (4)Kurds, I believe, may become be the locomotive for your state’s disintegration. As the Turks have done with other minorities, they continue the same policy of ethnic intolerance towards the Kurds, but Kurds are in great number, they’re better mobilized, and I just don’t see that Turks can find “final solution” to the Kurdish question as they did in regard to millions of the Armenians.
P.S. I now can understand why on a couple of occasions your comments might have been deleted by moderators.
Teoman,
Than you for your comments…
You seem mature for your age.. unfortunately I can’t say about Robert… I don’t know how old Robert is but all I can say about Robert is this: just like Teylerian said he is the perfect example and representative of everything how we see a “Turk” to be.. Trust me.. there are many many more of him everywhere especially in Turkey.. Which is why having a citizenship and being treated equally does not seem promising….. you beautifully said
Of course, given that equal representation – in all terms, not only about legal issues but education, history etc.)
I can say this will not happen.. not until the Genocidal Regime of the Turkish State crambles and people like Robert get thrown out of the country…..
You also said…
Rather, “they don’t know…” is more precise, i guess.
I agree with you Teoman.. Many Turks do not know… and I hope that they are as open minded and civilized as you are to allow the truth be told… i hope they are willing to learn the history and willing to stand up to the lies, denial, corruption, manipulation, evil, and destructive that their State represents. ….On the flip side of this is that many Turks know the history, many see what is going on, yet they refuse to accept it. Why?? Well maybe they are as physco as Robert and will not budge from their Genocidal self, maybe many are afraid of their lives living in Turkey, maybe many are afraid to find out that their family members may turn out to be Armenians and they may have Armenian, Greek, or Assyrian blood and that will throw everything out of norm… who knows?? but I can tell you that as many Turks that they are who are ” neutral”.. they are as many if not more Turks who refuse to get out of their mental blockage… this is all because of the State of Turkey.. Turkish Govt is doing this to you and people like you.. They are the devils of this planet.. and many already know.. all that needs to be happen is break away from it… Education is a way to freedom.. Acceptance is way to freedom… Knowledge is a way to indepdence.. :)
Teylerian jan.. excellent comment…kefs ekav when I read it.. apres…
Robert– it is just sad to know that people like you coexist among the civilized societies…i guess the devil does walk among us.. but I know God will defeat such evil forces and put a stop to it.. sooner or later..
Thank you and have a great day
Gayane
Hi, teo, and thanks for responding to my comment. As I said in a comment addressed to Robert, we thank God to have here Turks like you, young men who at least try to know the truth, look inwards, find cure to many illnesses their society suffers from.
I can understand that the views the majority of young men and women in your country have with regard to Armenia or Armenians are based on distorted history that’s been taught for decades in schools. Even today, so they tell me, 12 mln DVDs are being distributed to the Turkish schools depicting Armenians(?!) mass murdering innocent Turks. What can we expect from the majority of your brainwashed citizens (by “brainwashed” I only mean “deceived”, “disoriented”, so please take this as no offense)?
You claim to be 24 years of age, and there are many things that you’d still research to have the whole picture of what had happened in 1915-1923; what’s been happening during the past 95 years in your state and the world in regard to the Armenian Question; and what’s happening to those courageous Turkish intellectuals like Orhan Pamuk, Taner Akcam, and Hrant Dink, who dare to speak the truth about the Armenian Genocide, as well as many other related issues. I wholeheartedly agree with you that “Turks and Armenians have to contact each other and that Armenians have to explain their concerns face to face: their past in these lands, their suffering etc. However, I appear to disagree on the form of those contacts. We cannot accept co-citizenship in order to have face-to-face contacts under the current circumstances. And they’re as follows: First, Turkey continues to deny on the state level that the genocide of the Armenian ever occurred, whereas roughly 30 world parliaments and governments; provincial governments of dozens of countries; the Vatican; reputable international organizations, such as the European Parliament; UN Sub-commission on Minorities; professional associations, such as the International Association of Genocide Scholars; international human rights and advocacy groups; 44 state legislatures of the United States; US Congress’ international relations subcommittee; the majority of scholars, historians, and international lawyers; and hundreds of Nobel Prize laureates, including your own Orhan Pamuk, have already unequivocally recognized that Ottoman Turks have committed genocide against the Armenian people. Now think about this: how can Armenian have face-to-face contacts with the Turks knowing that their state for 95 years denies the fact and punished those who speak the truth of the issue. Imagine if I meet you face to face in Constantinople, would you be able to discuss the issue openly with me knowing that there’s Article 301 in your Penal Code that could potentially prosecute you for insulting Turkishness for your open ideas on the Armenian genocide? Second, how technically can we meet face-to-face if your state shortly after the Republic of Armenia became independent closed the borders with the country and links the normalization of bilateral relations with an issue that has no relation to the Armenian-Turkish relations whatsoever, read: Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh)? How can we contact each other knowing that your state pours hundreds of millions of US dollars internationally to suppress the truth about the Armenian genocide: it hires lobbying groups, bribes historians, bullies foreign governments whose parliaments recognize the Armenian genocide, and much more. Do you think that under these circumstances your state will allow you and the like-minded young people like you to openly discuss the issue? I strongly doubt so. Third, please don’t leave it upon Armenian to educate the Turks about “Turks do not accept what their ancestors do to ours,” as you put it. This is, first of all, the prerogative of your government. With distorted education and Armenophobia in your society what do you think ordinary Armenians could achieve if not added anger at that they try to twist the minds of the Turks? Historical education and admittance of guilt for the crime of genocide is the government priority. In my mind, we can only assist the process, but not initiate it under the circumstances that are generally hostile toward the Armenians in the Turkish society. Teo, if your government could prosecute and deport your own Nobel Prize winner and dozens of other brilliant intellectuals, as well as cover the murder of Hrant Dink and his lawyer, can you imagine what it can do with ordinary people like us? Anything…
In order not so sound inflexible to your propositions, I can only think of a reconciliation process that’d need to originate within the Turkish society to have substantial results. Your state needs to liberalize, democratize, become more tolerant towards the opposite opinions, towards ethnic and religious minorities, more open-minded, more compassionate towards the millions of innocent people it’s mass murdered in cold blood, more truthful in terms of its history. Don’t expect other to help you out with this because others, i.e. your immediate neighbors and the Europeans, are generally antagonistic towards your state, I repeat: state not ordinary citizens. Think why Turkey is surrounded by antagonistic nations, why Ottomans are generally perceived as “barbarian,” why there’s so much antagonism in scholarly literature on Assyrian, Greek, and Armenian genocides; why the remaining religious groups are prohibited to function freely in your country with their seminaries closed and their religious identities jeopardized; why scores of architectural monuments throughout the country are being portrayed as “Seljuk” whereas in reality these are marble of Armenian, Assyrian, the Hittite, and Greek civilizations? On the most recent example, the restoration of the Akhtamar church on Lake Van: think why a 10th century Armenian church was transformed into a museum that had no annotation whatsoever as to its Armenian origin (and I’m silent on Hagia Sophia here presuming you’d know what happened to this marble of Greek Byzantine civilization). What happened to the parishioners of the Akhtamar church? Who lived in the vicinity of the Akhtamar church for thousands of years? If it’s a 10th century Armenian church, where were the Turks in the 10thcentury, had they existed at all? You say “Armenia and Armenians have low priority” in the Turkish society, well, we believe we can make it a high priority by continuing to demand justice for the Armenian civilization wiped out in Ottoman empire and by means of international recognition of the genocide. This can stop only when your government repents and admits the guilt for the crime against humanity. We also believe that repentance is important not only for the Armenian people so they can overcome the victim complex, but also for Turkey. It’ll demonstrate to the world that your state undergoes societal transformation, it’s becoming more open-minded, more tolerant, more repentant, more civilized… That the world cannot refer to the Turks as “barbarian,” but as “civilized partners.”
I have to log off now, but will make sure I’ll answer your counterarguments no. 1 and 2 shortly. So long.
Very true Karen,you are right 100%
OK, teo, here’s my comments to both of your counterarguments, as promised.
For counterargument no. 1: First of all, you need to know that it’s very hard to be an Armenian in Turkey. Out of 2-2.5 million of Ottoman Armenians only some 60-70,000 remain mostly in Constantinople. This, in and of itself, is a puzzle for you and your like-minded friends: what happened to the remaining millions of Armenians? In the U.S. there are many Armenians (we call them Polsahays, meaning Armenians from Constantinople) who emigrated from Turkey. From them I’ve learnt that being an Armenian in Turkey always runs a risk of being socially denigrated, oppressed, or even killed as in the case of Hrant Dink. They used to behave themselves very cautiously as to not to aggregate the government or ultranationalist forces; most of them were compelled to change their names to make them sound more Turkish (for instance many here have “oghlu” in their surnames); they don’t widely reveal their ethnicity or the religion they practice. On the issue of recognition of the Armenian genocide they are much more reserved than the Armenians living anywhere in the world but Turkey. Not because they don’t support the cause, but because they’re afraid of repercussions and threat to their lives. This is very real. Now, having said this, I presume many of them wouldn’t be against the state because, after all, it’s their homeland, the land where they had social affiliations, some cultural affinity, ate good food, drank delicious water. After all, Armenians lived in Constantinople since times immemorial, long before the establishment of the House of Osman in the 15th century AD, just like Armenians in the six vilayets of Western Armenia: Erzrum, Van, Bitlis, Tigranakert (Turk: Diyarbekir), Kharbert (Turk: Mamuretul-Aziz) and Sebastia (Turk: Sivas). I guess what I’m trying to say is that these people were born and raised in Constantinople, their grandparents lived in the Ottoman empire, and their remote ancestors lived in Byzantine. Second major point here is that the CUP government who, as you know, is the major perpetrator of the Armenian genocide, intentionally left the Constantinople Armenians largely untouched in contrast to the six vilayets and Cilicia on the Mediterranean shore, where all of the Armenians were slaughtered and forcibly deported. This has been done purposefully: because foreign embassies, missionaries, trade representations were concentrated in Constantinople, CUP leadership wanted to create a wrong illusion that Armenians are not being mass massacred in the Armenian vilayets. Hence, several dozens of thousands of Armenians survived the massacres. It’s one thing to be born and raised as an Armenian in Constantinople and quite a different thing for the descendants of those barely survived or deported who now are spread all over the world to become co-citizens in the lands of their ancestors—now completely inhabited by the Kurds and Turks—that remain under the jurisdiction of the Turkish state. I hope you’d understand this psychological discomfort of becoming new co-citizens of the same Turkish state that hasn’t changed an inch in treating its minorities (after the exterminated Assyrians, Greeks, and Armenians, Kurds now serve as an example), close-minded, religiously-intolerant, non-Turkish ethnicity- sustainmentanxious society. How can such a close illiberal society provide equal representation to the new citizens, who’ll be again living under its jurisdiction?
For counterargument no. 2: The eastern part of what was once Greater Armenia that included three quarters of its territory known as Western Armenia under the Ottoman empire, is now the Republic of Armenia. It’s a newly-independent state, almost 20 years of existence after the demise of the Soviet Union. The existence of unofficial workers, as you put it, mostly in Russia, European and some Arab states, as well as maybe several thousands in Turkey, is part of the difficult process of self-sustainment as a new state, a state that’s for roughly 20 years is still blockaded by Turkey and Azerbaijan. But we’re Armenians and we’re internationally known for our entrepreneurship, resilience, and ability to ride out difficult conditions, and the country is doing relatively well, of course, as compared to some other former Soviet republics, even under the blockade and closed borders with Turkey. Unofficial workers provide additional support for their families, just like millions of Turkish unofficial workers do the same in, for example, Germany. Although I’d assume that Germany would provide minimal medical or legal aid to these illegal Gasterbaiters. I’m afraid your counterargument is weak in that no hardships as illegal workers can be compared to the risk of being massacred and looted again for being Armenians living amongst Kurds and Turks. There are houses in Kars, Moush, and elsewhere that were built by Armenians. They were given to the Turks and Kurds after Armenians were forcibly expelled or massacred; all their property, gold, cattle, bank accounts, and insurance indemnities have been stolen by your state. Imagine if Armenians prosper again as new co-citizens having in their memory the facts of theft that happened just 90-95 years ago. How would you feel? I don’t think we’d buy that this time.
I strongly believe that the only way to proceed further as neighbors is for Turkey to apologize for its crime. I know it’s difficult to admit that Turks are capable of barbarism, inhumanity, indescribable tortures and total disrespect for human dignity and life, but, teo, this needs to be done. Not only for us, victims of the genocide, but for your nation, too. Wouldn’t you want to clean yourselves of the stigma of unrepentant genocide-perpetrator nation?
Robert should read your comments over and over Teylerian jan…thank you for the most educational and detailed counter arguments…
God Bless you
Gayane
P.S. Karen.. I also agree with you 100%…
Gayane and Teylerian,
Thank you for allocating time for me and sharing your opinions. Writing this long probably took 1 hour at least, so i am really grateful for that.
To answer yor last question Teylerian: I honesly believe that your ancestor experienced terrible things as you said. There is nothing for me to deny here.. and I think you are very sad/angry with this. It is very easy to see that you are not acting (not personally, whole Armenians).
But you have already mentioned several times that accepting these, apologising for them, memorizing them together is not enough for you. For example disentegration of the state: I respect your ancestors presence here, I respect your suffer for them, I think it is also your land, and I anticipate you miss here very much. But I also love my country, I also feel belonging to here as you do. This is what I am, and I think I will never change my opinion about this, as you won’t change your opinion about the cause. And I am quite sure I am not the only turk thinking this way. Just let me give you a humble advice: Next time you visit your home, Choose some guys randomly and ask these: What they think the gov’t should do to protect the country? What would they individually do to protect it? The answers will be like this: 1. gov’t would do anything. 2. They happily sacrifice their life to protect the country. For example, in the december, i will join the military to fulfill my military obligation. It will be for six months. I don’t want to kill anyone of course, but if i die, i don’t think it will be for nothing. (I’m not trying to irritate you here, my aim is to emphasise what I (or generalize and say turks) feel about the country.)
This is why i mentioned the redlines of each side in my second message. After I began to learn your perspectives from you directly, I begin to understand why this conflict couldn’t be solved for 100 years. I think both sides tend to underestimate the other sides redlines. For example, Turks think that one day, you will give up defending your cause passionately. Given that, the optimum strategy for them is to postpone the problem. But as you see their assumption is wrong, so the strategy is wrong. For Armenians, they think that some day Turkey will disentegrate (as the Treaty of Serves provided). But we are told that our ancestor did everything to reject this treaty in the War of Independence, leaded by Atatürk, and most of us probably to the same thing. So, I am pretty sure that me and my children will not see the disintegration of the state in their lifetime. Therefore, I think Armenians should evaluate their demads either. For example, Teylerian metioned about Kurds for disintegration. I wouldn’t bet Kurds will aim-achieve to disintegrate, if I were you. Here is just some reasons:
1. Unlike the Turks-Armenians, Turks-Greeks etc. There is a hybrid generation between Turks and Kurds (I think the important element is common religion here). For example, I am Turk but indeed I am 15/16 turk and 1/16 kurd. Of course 1/16 kurdishness is nothing but the number of this hybrid generation is increasing day by day as the kurds move to the west part of the country. They are very improtant for keeping two nations together, because they understand both sides.
2. As the Kurds move west, the geographical difference disappears. For example the city which contains the largest kurdish population in the world is Istanbul. There are 3million kurds living there. Hence everybody is aware of disintegration would cause much more problems than it solves. There is no visible border behind turkish lands and kurdish lands.
3. If you follow turkish domestic politics, you can see that the kurdish movement use the words “autonomy” and “freedom”. But they never use “independence”. It is because they don’t want a seperate state but a kind of federation as opposed to unitary state. They want to express their Kurdishness freely, preserve their culture, education in mother tongue (indeed the demands are similar, with armenian citizens except federation or autonomy- armenian citizens don’t demand it because they are minority anyway). I’m quite confident thay It is the TUrks that create imaginary kurdish seperalists in order to keep the priviledge of some groups (like military).
Anyway I think the things above are slightly out of our topic. In the whole message, I tried to show an ordinary turk’s feeling about the land and country. You are intellegent people. Now you can respond me with dozens of things about the real owners of land, your 3000 years history here, ottoman empire etc. But believe me it doesn’t change my feelings about my country.It is why I think we try to understand/learn each other and build the future above this mutual understanding.
I’m not sure we will meet in the forum again. if we don’t thanks for everything, I appreciate that you share your opinions. I hope life treats you wonderful.
goodbye
=))
Hi, teo. I can understand your point, but your point is based on the distorted history and false government propaganda. You love your country, that’s fine, but eastern parts of your country don’t actually belong to you and your government is hiding this truth for 90 years of existence of the republic. I appreciate your understanding of our position, but there’s also one very important factor to add to your understanding: Turkey is on the wrong side of the equation and we believe that truth will sooner or later, in 100 or 200 years, ultimately prevail because the murderer-state cannot hide forever, it just cannot get away with murder forever. You may think this statement sounds naïve, but Christians believe in miracles, in God’s judgment and His punishment for evil-doers. One way or the other, whether it’s disintegration of the state, establishment of a Kurdish separate state (by the way I disagree on how you described the situation with the Kurds, but won’t expand on it now), apology for committing the genocide, international condemnation for this crime against humanity, or revitalization of the Treaty of Sevres, Turkey will have to face the truth and accept its guilt in committing race annihilation of the whole Western Armenian civilization. It just won’t go anywhere…