Dear President Aliyev,
It has been nearly 20 years since the Karabagh Armenians of historic Armenian Artsakh declared their independence.
Ever since the Bolsheviks created your country, you, your father Heydar, and those who came before him have methodically destroyed Armenian churches, cemeteries, and other irrefutable physical evidence that these were Armenian lands ruled by Armenian kings millennia before the Republic of Azerbaijan ever existed.
I’ll let that rest for now, but I would be a bit surprised if someone with a Ph.D. in history was not acutely aware of these facts.
The south Caucasus could be enjoying the peace and prosperity that all its people desire if you had accepted the legitimate right of the Karabagh Armenians to declare their independence to live on their historic lands. The basic fact that you should not ignore is that the Karabagh Armenians will protect their hard-won freedom at any and all cost if your military forces once again challenge them on the battlefield.
Having had the good fortune to visit Artsakh again, most recently a few months ago, I witnessed the tremendous economic strides the Karabagh Armenians have made since the ceasefire was established 17 years ago. Politically they have established a democratic system of government that could, quite frankly, serve as a model for your people.
But I digress. My purpose in writing this letter is to offer some useful suggestions. You are spending billions of dollars to, as we say in the United States, “supersize” your military forces. For what purpose?
You are aware that no nation, other than possibly Turkey, would favor a resumption of military operations against the Karabagh Armenians. That being said, I am not convinced that your Turkish brothers-in-arms think that the Azerbaijan military could mount a successful operation against the Karabagh Armenians. That raises the question: What do you plan to do with all the military equipment you have on hand and that, from your constant public announcements, you plan to continue purchasing? This is 2011. There are no new worlds to conquer, least of all Karabagh.
Here is a suggestion as to what could be done with all those tanks, armored personnel carriers, self-propelled artillery pieces, missile launchers, and helicopter gunships.
Never having had the opportunity to visit Azerbaijan, I don’t know if you have “service areas” or “rest areas” along your highways as we do in the United States. If you do, such locations would be ideal places for a display of combat vehicles and related military equipment. Several standard displays could be used simultaneously throughout Azerbaijan, or a set of rotating displays might be made available.
Since there would be no need for all those men in the army, some could be trained as military information specialists similar to the park rangers we have in the United States. These specialists could provide technical information as well as answer questions that travelers may have.
However, there is both an upside and a downside to these displays—a plus and a minus, as they say. These displays would remind your people of the billions of dollars you invested to create the largest military force in the south Caucasus. They might question the wisdom of this decision or, through sheer pride in your accomplishment, might accept you as the “father” of the modern Azerbaijan military. No one during the 90-year history of the Republic of Azerbaijan could be cited to challenge that distinction.
Another suggestion might be to give former service members who served with distinction in a tank platoon the older model T-72A or T-72B tank for his personal use. I understand the T-72M is the latest model being used by the Azerbaijan Army. With a tank in the family driveway, not only would the family have a means of transportation, but the designated driver could perform first-echelon maintenance on the vehicle that he was trained to do while on active duty. Active duty military teams could check the vehicle, say every three months, to see that proper maintenance had been performed, as well as provide on-site assistance. If required the vehicle could be taken to a maintenance depot for further inspection, repairs, etc. A loaner tank could be provided during this downtime.
Some retrofitting would have to be done to comply with civilian safety requirements, such as better forward vision for the driver, exterior rear-view mirrors, brake and directional lights, etc. Special rubber pads would be available to cover the tank treads to eliminate damage to the highways when the family goes for a spin.
Larger families could opt for the ubiquitous 2.5-ton truck that is used by all the world’s military forces. All families with a military vehicle could petition the government for a 1.5-ton cargo trailer as a useful accessory to bring crops to the market, carry building materials, etc.
The Pars 8-wheel armored personnel carrier could also double as a civilian transport vehicle. I understand they have a cargo capacity of eight tons if not carrying troops. A rental fleet of these vehicles operated by a government agency could fill a niche for the transport of goods in all kinds of weather and terrain.
I understand that you are increasing the number of Matador and Marauder four-wheeled armored personnel carriers. Although both are sharp looking vehicles, style-wise they don’t measure up to the Humvee used by the United States Army. However, if you could retrofit them for civilian use, they might become very popular with the young people for cross-country recreational activities. This would be a healthier alternative to their intended use on the battlefield. What a statement a modified civilian model of either one would make parked in someone’s driveway. Another suggestion would be to use them as armored transport vehicles for the movement of money, other valuables, and important people. These services are provided by companies such as Brinks, Loomis, or Dunbar in the United States
Given your oil resources, you wouldn’t have to worry about the use of these gas guzzlers. Your government could afford to subsidize the price of diesel fuel and gasoline to operate the vehicles. Since more people would have the means to travel in all kinds of weather, it would create a demand for service stations, restaurants, motels, shopping centers, amusement parks, etc. You would be responsible for an economic expansion that would surely endear you to your people and make neighboring leaders envious.
Here is a suggestion for your helicopter gunships. Some could be modified for civilian use as sightseeing helicopters. Such helicopter rides are very popular over the Grand Canyon, New York City, and other places in the United States. A quasi-public entity could be formed to provide commercial tourist flights over some interesting and beautiful landscapes throughout Azerbaijan, such as the city of Baku, the Mingachevir Reservoir, the towering Caucasus Mountains, the oil rigs in the Caspian Sea, or the farmlands on the Kura River floodplain.
No doubt you would still have a sizeable catalog of military equipment remaining. But the only problem with a sizeable military force is finding a productive use for it. Unfortunately war is not a productive use. Maintaining a supersized military establishment is a costly business. Equipment has to be constantly upgraded and replaced. Enlisted men and officers must continually undergo classroom training and participate in meaningful field exercises to remain combat ready. New recruits have to be trained and indoctrinated. It is a never-ending enterprise and costs keep escalating. I am sure you already know this. However, there is a real danger you may not have considered in having a large combat-ready military force that has little to do.
If you, supported by a coterie of privileged families, continue to rule in an imperious manner, enjoying the wealth produced by your citizens and ignoring the grinding poverty that many of your people experience, this combat-ready force may come to the realization that the only enemy that Azerbaijan has is you.
Knowing this, shouldn’t the Arab Spring give you some cause for concern?
Respectfully,
Michael G. Mensoian
Michael Mensoian
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Michael, A very good article indeed.
This open letter should really be addressed to the US State Department – the real culprit behind Azerbaijan’s intransigence, belligerence and support of Azeri-war mongering and military armaments directly or indirectly via the State Department extension (i.e Israel) at the tune of $1.5 billion per year.
The Arabs tried in vain to teach the Turks “Vejdan” from the Arabic “Wejdan” because the Turks, their Azeri cousins and the Brits with their British Petroleum Foreign Affairs Office don’t have one.
ԻՄԱՑՈՂԻՆ ՄԵԿ ՉԻՄԱՑՈՂԻՆ ՀԱԶԱՐ
ԻՄԱՑՈՂԻՆ ՄԵԿ ՉԻՄԱՑՈՂԻՆ ՀԱԶԱՐ
Michael, What a great idea. Hopefully your suggestion as to what could be done with all those tanks, armored personnel carriers, self-propelled artillery pieces, missile launchers, helicopter gunships, etc. will be embraced and implemented by Azerbaijan, thereby transforming dear President Aliev into a wizard and a top candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize!
Michael, this is a great idea. Hopefully your suggestion as to what could be done with all those tanks, armored personnel carriers, self-propelled artillery pieces, missile launchers, helicopter gunships, etc., will be fervently embraced and implemented by Azerbaijan, thereby transforming “dear President” Ilham Aliev into a champion for peace in the South
Caucasus region and a top candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize!!
Dear Michael,
Before the collapse of USSR the world was in sort of “Balance”, we had West/East Blocs, some countries “Belonged” to one side and some to other and both blocs were pointing everything on each other, until USSR vanished after which there was a chaos where one Bloc was in disarray and the other gobbled some countries from the other; and you know the story…..
I’m sure you’re aware that when a superpower finds a country with natural resources puts it’s pawn on it starts with creating a situation that the ruler of that country starts with minus and owes a lot of money to the BOSS and then the SP (Sup. Power Or Service Provider :-)) decides what
that country needs in order to survive and that’s nothing but what the so-called “Military-Industrial
Complex” of SP dictates.
That’s how the “Can of Worms” is opened because right after the first batch of merchandize arrives the subject country learns that doesn’t know how to use it and that’s when a sea of military technicians starts pouring in (of course not for free) and they get deeper and beeper in that quicksand; and it doesn’t stop there because the SP creates some unrests and small
explosions in the subject country by some internal opposition groups and/or agents of his giant Security Companies of mercenaries and when those people with their 10 gigits or more contracts get involved (like B. W. & Julianies company) to take care of….. and etc.
Now I’ll give you a “True Story” that I was involved in sounds like a joke but it means something:
I was working in an office among 6 otheres that was a big hall without partitions.
Pepsi was new in town and one us was pronouncing it Fefsi making us laugh inside; an old timer told us:
“I kill the guy who tries to correct him, let it stay as is; we are enjoying the moments”.
Now it’s you Michael this guy is getting Deep and Deeper in that S… and you are alarming him, why? At least It’s good for our economy here.
In a war where no power is involved, Azerbaijan would take Karabag back in a week. Mark my words.
Aliev wants to buy more weapons? No problemo here, let him do it. Someday, the Karabakh Defense Forces, will own it. Keep up the good work, Haji Ali.
In the beginning of the war in 1988-1991, Soviet army and OMON were fighting on the side of Azeris (e.g. Operation Koltso 1991), Ahmet Bey.
In 1994, Heydar Aliyev was pleading with his KGB friends in Moscow to stop Artsakh’s tank columns from racing to Baku. In 1994 Azeris had no Army left able to put up any resistance. Azeris had 30,000 KIA. Read that again 30,000 Azeri troops killed in action. The rest of Azeri Army troops wounded and out of action. By January 1994 Aliyev was sending untrained Azeri teenagers to the front to stem the tide of surging Armenian onslaught.
If outside powers – Moscow and Washington – had not intervened, there would be no country of Azerbaijan as we know it today. There would only be a City State of Baku, like Singapore.
There would be a whole bunch of little states: Lezgistan, Talishestan, Udinestan, Zakhorestan, Luitsistan, Avarstan, etc.
Delusional Azeris have created the myth and have convinced themselves that Russians won the war for Armenians.
Armenians won the war despite Russia: during most of the Artsakh war Russia was helping Azeris as much as they were helping Armenians. Russians asked Armenians to stop their advance in 1994. Russia saved Azerbaijan.
What’s your problem homeboy? Why do you care to see the Azeris take Artsakh in a week? Are you not aware that those lands have historically been Armenian or do you just want it anyway?
If you’re a greedy punk than I hope your greedy face meets a really hard object and changes your outlook on things otherwise go learn some history.
Ahmet, You mean like last time? :-)))
Ahmet, You mean like the last time? :-)))
Ahmet,
See now you by saying “war where no power is involved” are setting conditions for the war; which is Okay because same condition must be applied to both sides and by that
you just cornered yourself because if West; which is on your side pulls out; it won’t live all those weaponry in the unreliable hands of a man like your President; and in that case; what remains is nothing but the same president with his same “Chicken” army.
Do you still want to take the same risk again?
You are free to do it but don’t forget what President Sarkissyan said:
“Armenia this time won’t stop and will go all the way”.
Ahmet,
See now you by saying “war where no power is involved” are setting
conditions for the war; which is Okay because same condition must be applied to both sides and by that you just cornered yourself because if West which is on your side pulls out; it won’t live all those weaponry in the unreliable hands of a man like your President; and in that case; what remains is nothing but the same president with his same “Chicken” army.
Do you still want to take the same risk again?
You are free to do it but don’t forget what President Sarkissyan said:
“Armenia this time won’t stop and will go all the way”.
Ahmet,
In a war where no powers involved, Turkey would face the Armenians, Greeks, Cypriots and the Kurds all alone. And the results will not be all too rosie for Turkey.
Avery, Thank you for the part of history. Isn’t that sad though that Russia’s Stalin gave the Tatars a newly formed country called Azerbaijan and again Russia would stop our troops to go further and re-claim our own anscestral homeland which at a good many centuries our lands went as far as the Kaspian Sea.
@Ahmet:
Read these earlier postings by Menosian to understand just how the Azeris would/will fail.
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/03/26/mensoian-assessing-azerbaijans-military-threat-to-retake-karabagh-part-i/
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/03/31/mensoian-assessing-azerbaijans-military-threat-to-retake-karabagh-part-ii/
Armenian forces have only grown stronger since this time. They are very prepared.
This is a very funt and well written article. Thank you.
Ahmed sana na zahmat, You people never realize that you have
a big problem with your neighbor. Historically, so called Azerbaijan is part of another country. Ahmed ask Osta Aliyev for a solution before jumping to conclusion. hahaha
In a war, the country that starts the war ALWAYS looses. Facts speak for themselves. Rest assured, Azerbaijan will be foolish to take this disastrous step.
What a funny article… But sad too. What do you forget to mention 800,000 Azeri refugess who had to leave the lands currently under Armenian occupation? You make it sound like they did not even exist and have no right to return.
But this is not the main reason I am writing this comment. You guys wonder why we Azeris spend all this money on military if we cannot use it (because the superpowers will not allow it). Yes, you are right; there will not. So here is the real reason: this is arms race, whereby we will drain out Armenia’s much more limited funds (remember how the USA bled out the USSR with their own arms race). And it is working: Armenia is spending a lot more on military too. The effect? Your economy will suffer, living conditions will get worse and worse, which will in turn increase the already high emigration, etc, etc, a chain reaction of sort. We have a lot more money than you, and we can outlast you in this arms race. In the end, even if we do not start a war, there may actually never be a need for it in the future: Armenia will be a desolate and failed state, with some loud diaspora members beating their chests in California and Paris. We have patience. We will drain out your treasury, make you make yourself even more dependent on Russia (which will exploit your vulnerability by pillaging your important economic properties, such as gas companies, etc), and we will win. It is just basic math, my friends.
Nazim,
First of all you are not buying those weapons by choice as I explained above when they buy your oil you MUST buy weapons; that is almost like barter, although money is involved but it’s exchanging commodities, if you look around there were/are too many examples like Saudi; Shah of Iran, Gadhafi (who got killed today) and there are more, bottom line they take your oil and
give you some toys to play but the final Red button is under their thumb and that’s
how it works, so don’t get excited at all.
800,000 refugees; aren’t you exaggerating? Are you doing that thinking someone is going
to distribute free sugar, bread and blankets per person? Yes there were some refugees which your scared and defeated So-Called “Army” while running back used them as human shields where unfortunately until our side realized that some of them got killed; if you are playing with numbers then in Sumgait and Baku pogroms how many Armenians got killed and how many took refuge in Armenia and other neighboring countries and what happened to their belongings?
Did you president spend any oil money on those 800,000 refugees or your masses?
Finally; Please push a cork in one ear of your president and with a bullhorn shout in his other ear “you started a war and you lost it to our local militia, those Armenian lands that you are begging are colored by our blood; therefor are Sacred, AND REMEMBER; THE SIDE WHO WINS THE WAR SETS THE TERMS FOR THE LOOSER AND YOU GUYS ARE THE LOOSER”.
Hey Nazim
It is never good to have a rational, analytical enemy like yourself. It is kind of scary actually.
But, you probably can’t relate to what I am saying because it seems like while you do possess some intellect you lack wisdom, compassion and respect.
To rebut your analytical argument: USSR didn’t lose because of money they lost because the enemy found a way to wage war from within and destroyed the USSR from inside out.
As far as winning by bankrupting us goes – you are spending 5-20 times more than us on arms. We don’t need to match your level of armament at all, we just need a bare minimum to defend ourselves. So keep spending and we’ll see who goes bankrupt first.
Good luck to you in your personal progress Nazim.
Nazim Xanum.. was it basic math when you people lost the first war?? hmmmmm basic math or not.. the fact remains DOES NOT MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY (BEGGERS like your govt is) you get from WEST, your govt has no strong soldiers to fight for your country…
ONE HUGEEEEEEEEEE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AZERIS AND ARMENIANS.. Armenians fight for a PURPOSE, they fight for their HEART AND SOUL.. their lands, their culture, their history… Their determination is stronger than any weapon your loser president puts out… your soldierns lost because they did not know what they were fighting for.. they had no reason to fight for… hence, they lost the war even though they outnumbered my brothers and sisters in thousands.. are you following me? or are you lost?
Ahmet oglu- you and Nazim should sit together and really crunch some numbers and figure out how much you will lose if your loser President decides to pull another stunt like that… it is as simple as common sense my friends…. but then again who am i kidding about common sense?….
Michael M– absolutely brilliant letter.. I LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE IT… and I agree this should be sent to Hillary and Obama….every month..:) THANK YOU…
I just don’t know if Alyev would comprehend such letter.. i mean look at his fact in this picture…does he look like someone who has the capability to read and understand as intelligent letter… he would most likely be like “ummmmmmm.. i am droppy….can you repeat??? “””
Avery jan– great post.. as always..:)
Dears Osik, Caren and Gayane, Excellent answers to, Ahmet and Nazim. I almost couldn’t add more, except one. Instead of being such a spenddrift your very intelligent Aliyev, wouldn’t he should have beern humanly enough in 20 years to have provided for his country’s refugees, rather than buying billion dollars of armamants? On the other hand, Armenia’s presidents took in all the Armenian refugees from Sumgeit and Baku regions and treated them the exact same way as the rest of their people. Do you see the difference? Like my brothers and sisters said above, we already won the war 20 years ago. The lands that belonged to us from thousands of years to begin with!
All Mr. Alioff should do drop one of his drones out of his useless military collection, and spend the drone money for his “politically created refugees”, where he kept them in tents, with their livestock, keep embarrassing himself in front of European leaders… Artsakh is gone and he will never ever get it back (he knows that very well) he is just fooling his own people, for how many more years he is willing to collect military hardware and no war???”Ghadafi baba” did for 42 years and was killed in a water sewer, worse than a rat!!This is why Islamic dictatorial Sultanate regimes exist in this world, just like Mary-Go-Round…
Nazim,
All those weapons that Alioff is buying will be used against your own people there is no military race, Armenia has a unique military, the only time you will know the might of Armenian army when Tatars and Turks attack us …USSR came to his knees because of corruption… Heidar Aliev kicked out of Kremlin because of his terrible corruption habits, before the fall of USSR, but he managed to introduce his new KGB style corruption in our native stolen land of Armenia, NAKHICHEVAN and finally to his son, family members, military friends, corrupted ministers, and finally to the people of newly crowned oil Sheikhdom!! The terrible viruses of USSR is very much alive in your beloved azerPYjan!!
Dear Michael G. Mensoian, I did not like your letter, because if I was the Azeri president I would not read your letter because you were kind of making fun of him and his country. I think you should kept your letter serious and not kept making fun of their military. even if you don’t think Azeri Army can take Karabagh back, you should agree they can do lot of damage and most of all kill lot of people from both sides. so i don’t think it’s a joking matter when specially you are sitting in United States away from harms way. Turkey has a satellite that can watch all over Armenia and share that to Azeri Military, Israel is selling $300 million weapons to Azeri Military just this year, which includes unman ed drones that can spy on Armenia. Azeri’s spend 3 Billion on military in 1 year, this is not joke.
I am not quite sure what this article aims to achieve. I could write a similar “open letter” to President Sargsyan and his ilk, or some Dashnak folks (or whatever you guys call them), and discuss what they could have done with their few military equipment, whcih they certainly aim to increase, even more than Azerbaijan, albeit with less success. The fact of the matter is there is a conflict, which as you implicitly, and even to some extent, explicityly admit started with Armenians trying to gain a piece of land. Yes, Michael, you are right, that is true – the core of the problem is Armenians claiming that Garabagh belongs to them. While it is certainly not true, and I have in fact spoken to some objective (non-Armenian) historians about this, but all in all, does what you say sound to you OK? I mean in the 21th century there are people like you or some other ideologists, if you will, of Armenian aggression, who talk and advocate taking over other country’s land, separatism, aggression and similar ideas. To me this is just so wrong. It is absolutely unacceptable. Soon you will write an open letter to Turkey’s and Georgia’s President claiming “your right” to their territory and that those territoies “are historic land” of Armenias. This isn’t right Michael, this is morally wrong, this leads to war, aggression, casualties – and that is the core of the problem. What have Azerbaijanies done other than providing food and shelter to many Armenians, who fled from other countries, including Iran. What have they done other than sharing their home with Armenians. It was Armenians who erected a statute in Garabagh dedicated to 100 years anniversary of immigration of thouthands of Armenians to Nagorno Garabagh. No one made them to. If in fact you look at the history, you will notice that over time since 1828 (the date which you would have to mention) the Armenian population of Nagorno Garabagh increased, while Azerbaijani population decreased. It is reflected in many reports. Your “open letter” does not soung like “thank you” to me…
It is well accepted and I would think you would agree that many Armenians, and especially, who live outside Armenia, are too aggressive towards Azerbaijanis and, generally, against turks. They teach their children to be aggressive. They try to hide it, yet advocate it aggressively, including using inappropriate means, such ash bribing politicians. This is not right… Time to move on and teach your children something much better and serve their country and the world much better… and the world will become a much better place. Time to stop hating others just like their are of different nationality. I should remind you that Armenia is one of the most mononationalistic states in the former Soviet Union and the entire world. Wonder why? Time to stop claiming that other people’s land belong to you. Time to stop being aggressive….
Rashid:
the statements in your post clearly indicate you have absolutely no knowledge of the history of Armenians in Caucasus, the Armenian Highlands – which progeny of Seljuk Turk invaders currently occupy – and you have no knowledge of history of Azerbaijan.
Briefly:
Armenians are indigenous to both Caucasus and Armenian Highlands.
Azeri-Tatar-Turks and Seljuk Turks invaded our lands about the year 1000 A.D.
Altai Mountains region, where Azeri-Tatar-Turks invaded from, is 3,000 kilometers to the East of Caucasus.
By that time proto-Armenians then Armenians had been living on our lands for 4,000 years. Including Artsakh.
Invaders had previously ethnically cleansed Armenians from Artsakh: native Armenians came back to their own historic lands: where is the problem.
YOUR NAME RASHID, MEANING COURAGES does not become you,since all giobberish that you hve uttered above is just that!!
ILK yourself and your people or your Khan Alibaba!!!
From Gandzak(Genjeh in your lingo) to Shaumian to Nakhijevan is Armenian land from millenia.Your people the turco-tatar seljuk mongols invaded thse lands around 1400 as herdsmen and Genkis Teimur like wild leaders of your ancestors…
Time to CLEAR OUT!!!, THAT MOST OF YOU WERE,FROM THE BALKANS!!!!
Pretty soon your mian problem now namely the ex-mountain turks(actually K U R D S ) WILL SURFACE, SOME 18 MILLION? WHAT TO THROW THEM INTO BLACK SEA?
Then in parallel with that the E R M E N I MASALASI(problem)..
As to Azerbaijan, as of a few days the T A L I S H have convened conference in Yerevan and are getting ready to prove that their lands are in your Azerbaijan, and next to follow will be the L E N K O R A N I people, of Persian origine definitely not turco tatar monghol. SO YOU HAVE THESE ISSUES TO THINK ABOUT.
N AGORNYI KARABAGH , ALSO KNOWN AS khamsai melikutyunner , khamsa was thrown on the Armenian Princes there(long before your folk ¨¨squattered¨ into NK) Arabs, yes Arabs like they had done in Spain had reached also Artsakh NK, but kicked out like in Spain.,go learn history please then come here to bla bla!!
Wow.. I thought we had the last of the human “confused, lost, and brainwashed” minds but alas, nope.. they are still popping up one after another.. one more ridiculeous than the last.. Rashid.. wow.. Rashid.. I have no words to describe your existance on this page right now..
All I can say is this.. if you want to know the REAL truth, you might want to stir away and stop inhaling lying manipulating information your govt is feeding you… please do us ALL a favor and cite EVERY single accusations against Armenians you listed in your post.. Please provide maps, and links to everything that you pointed out about our lands and show us exactly where it says it belonged to Azeris and Turks… back the data up with facts Rashid because if you don’t, we will take you as another crazed up, messed up denialists..
Have a nice day SIR
Gayane
Dear Rashid Bay Gandonoglou from the Aliyevbaijan Sultanate,
What is wrong and unacceptable is your fascist governments incessant and disgusting anti-Armenian, and most recently, anti-Iranian propaganda. From birth to death, your children are fed gianormous lies about Armenians and Persians. No one outside the so called fake republic of Azerbaijan believes in your lies about your made up history. No matter how much oil money the Aliyev clan spends on rewriting the history books and on other forms of propaganda, the truth is know to all. By the way, how is your claim for “free south Azerbaijan” going :) I strongly urge you to prepare for a rain of Shahab III missiles raining down on Baki from Iran :) If the current trends continue in Aliyevbaijan, Aliyev and his clan will soon end up hiding in a sewer pipe like rats, just like Gadaffi :) You will never win in the info-wars or any other form of war. Your attempts at such things are crude and primitive at best. Back your anti-Armenian statements with hard facts like Gayane pointed out, or we will take you to the cleaners!
I made some comments, and all I hear you guys saying is that “this or other land belongs to us!”, “this is ours and not yours”, almost “only we have the right to exist in this soil, not you” etc. Folks, it is so much easy to manipulate with the historic facts, which you have been doing for many years. What I am saying is that you all guys should look to the future, teach the next generation not to hate others, quite saying “this belongs to us”, because this type of thinking is just at the core of all the problems we are facing. I think the evidence is plain and you all do admit that your approach at the outset had been “this land belongs to us” – this just had to cause conflict and war and you knew that, better than anyone else. It is like two people live side by side, and the one of them (typical Armenian) bangs his neightbors head everyday, saying “this belongs to me”, “this also belongs to me”, and at one point his words turn into action and he just comes and takes over his neighbors property. Hence, the conflict, way, casualties. you know your approach was going to to cause a conflict… you can be absolutely sure about that. But you nevertheless do it. Which country is next? Turkey? Maybe, as President Sargysyan told one young Armenian that the goal of the youth must be trying to take over, what you have called, “West Armenia”, which I understand is the eastern part of Turkey, you should be able to confirm this. What I am saying is this is the problem, you cannot teach your young generation these things, you cannot teach them to be aggressive and hate others.
Tell me: is there any country in the world, other than Armenia, which is the party to this conflict, that recognizes “Nagorno-Karabakh Republic” as an independent state? None!! Instead thre are 4 (four) fully effective resolutions of the UN Security Council demanding withdraval of Armenian troops from Azerbaijan’s territories. I do not want to go into history, despite that if we did, that would not be to your benefit, but would want to repeat and did his Excellency President Aliyev, that we need to resolve tihs conflict in accordance with the principles of international law, which clearly call for withdrawal of Armenian forces from Azerbaijani legally owned territories.
With respect to troops and army we have, we are certainly proud of it, and will use them when necessary. You know that the capacity of Azerbaijan’s army well exceed the capacity of Armenian army. We also know that! We do also realize that we live and border with countries that are not quite favorable to us. We aim to ensure that we could fight not just in one front line, but several. I can assure we can do that, and will do that if necessary.
Azerbaijan is becomming one of the world’s strongest and well respected countries. There is not much secret here behind this. We are honest, we are generally friendly, we keep our promises, we respect each other and others. I suggest you watch some reports about Azerbaijan on CNN, which were prepared in the context of their program called “Eye on Azerbaijan”. We offer to you right way to solving the problems. No shorcuts. Just comply with the law – that’s all we say. You say No, because of some YOUR historic considerations or, put this otherwise, because you interpret history the way you want. This does not bring peace… and not just with Azerbaijan.
Rashid, self-defense is not aggression. Armenians didn’t start the conflict in Azerbaijan. Azeris did. Armenians of Nagorno Karabakh had a right to seek independence for the land they call Artsakh. Azeris responded by massacring the Armenians and from that flows the real history of so-called Armenia aggression.
Yes Rashid, in a short sentence, most world’s oil sheikhdoms are well respected…US Condi Rice back few years ago used to play happy birthday melody on piano for Gaddafi, he was killed in a water sewer!!Saddam Hussein was most respected man in 80s and 90s by US both presidents “The Bushes”…late Shah of Iran was the most educated and liberal minded and Western oriented leader for Iran…They all gone in the name of OILY businesses…just be happy with your sheikhdom for now until the end come, when North AzerPyjan join to Iran’s South Azerbaijan back to motherland Iranic people…some of your Sheikhdom land still belong to Armenia such as Nakhichevan, where Kurdish man Alioff was born!! 50% of your beloved azePYjan are consider themselves have Persian roots not TURKIC…the dictatorial rule of Alioff keep them in a poor and disastrous condition…and now you are here become an agent and propagandist for alioff dynasty and Turkic world in AW….
The legal (and God given) right of Self Determination of Human beings trumps the (Man made) concept of Territorial Integrity.
NKR’s 75% Armenians voted by about 98% “Yes” for Independence. 25% Azeris of NKR boycotted the vote: their loss.
Azerbaijan lost any legal or moral right to govern NKR when they responded to peaceful declaration of self-rule by a full fledged military invasion.
Look up Operation Koltso (Ring).
Azeri-Tatar-Turks lost any moral right – if they ever had any – to govern Armenians of NKR when they completely surrounded capital Stepanakert and subjected it to months of terror-bombing: about 2,000 Armenian civilians were killed, plus thousands more wounded, crippled, maimed (including children).
In response to PEACEFUL demonstrations by Armenians for self-rule, Azeri-Tatar-Turks started massacring Armenians in Sumgait(1988), Kirovabad(1988), and Baku(1990).
As to War: I am sure in the fertile Azeri imagination they can fight on multiple fronts and win. Even the mighty Wehrmacht – the toughest, best fighting force in the world in modern times – was unable to fight on two fronts. Yet Azeris are going to fight and win on multiple fronts. Riiiiiiight.
Both RoA Pres Serj Sarksyan and RoA DM Ohanian are war veterans. DM Ohanian lost a leg during war. Your chickenhawk Pres Aliyev makes tough war-speeches. How close has he ever been to actual bloodshed ? Neither Artsakh’s, nor Armenia’s people nor leadership want war. We all know real war is not a video game. However, you Azeri-Tatar-Truks have been told this many times before, but I’ll say it again: after 1915 – everything changed. You come to kill our people, every able bodied man and woman will fight to the death. They all know Turks will massacre them anyway – why not kill as many invaders as one can ?
AMEN TO THAT AVERY JAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNN.. nicely said my friend.. nicely said… and you are 100% RIGHT….
Rashid rhymes with Raxid…ghat is how he sounds after his second embarassing comment above..t hese people don’t learn do they? they have no shame……
Gayane
Rashid.. you are right..the evidence is very plain… Azeris and Turks can’t handle the truth and all they do is whine, cry, b#$*(#*$(*#($*ch, lie, manipulate, and the only resort for you people is kill innocent people to get what DOES NOT BELONG TO YOU… we can see from your comments above that if most norotrious denialists/nationalist Azeris/Turks think like you, then conversations won’t work …you guys speak an alien language.. a language only people like you will understand and not the normal human beings… so because you have a problem communicating with human beings, all you can do is wage wars and massacre people to get your point across.. unfortunately in modern world this is unacceptable… YOU should not talk about peace, or teaching children to love thy neighbor.. YOU have no clue what these two sentences mean..
Tell me (repeating what you said:)… did you produce any evidence to show that the lands you stole from Armenians are yours??? Did you produce any evidence that what you accuse Armenians are true?? Did you produce any evidence to what you claim is yours is truly yours??? NO??? of course not…. either show us the evidence or shut the heck up….
Gayane
Look how much hate there is… You are just saying it. Look at this “Azeri-Tatar-Turks” hating expressions, you keep repeating your hate speeches and then cursing me? I am not sure where you guys are going with this. I can say the same nasty things, I could just throw comments like: there is a lot of evidence that the land that Armenian reside on and the land that you used to build your independent state belonged to Azerbaijan and it was taken and given to Armenia in 1828, when thouthands of Armenian familites immigrated to Irevan. But this is just one short introduction to history. Again, it is too easy to manipulate with historic facts, and if you were to tell the truth, you would admit that at no point in history did the current territory of Armenia or Nogorno-Karabakh belonged to Armenia.
There is a lot of evidence that Nagorno-Garabakh is rightly and legally (again, this is very importnat: LEGALLY) Azerbaijan’s territory. Just to name couple: (1) Nagorno-Garabagh was part of Azerbaijan SSR, which was, at least, theoretically, a relatively independent state, (2) it was part of Azerbaijan when the Soviet Union collapsed, (3) all countries in the world recognize NK as part of Azerbaijan, (4) consequently, no country in the world recognizes NK as part of Armenia or independent state, and (5) there are 4 fully effective resolutions of the UN Security Council demanding withdrawal of Armenian forces from Azerbaijn;s territory. These are just few basic facts.
To the extent you have any legal approach: I would assume that would be some argument based on “self-determination”. But the principle of self-determination is well defined and does not apply to this situation at all – it does not even come close to our situation. Why does the principle of territorial intergritty so importnat?: because if your argument were true, that would mean that any small population residing within a territory of a particular state could claim cessation, or separation. Right? Then there would be war everywhere. As our Great National Leader Heydar Aliyev would say – Armenians as a nation already exercise their self-determination within the boundaries of the Republic of Armenia. All I hear you saying is that “just because we lieve in a particular territory, we must be able to exercise our right to self-determination over that territory”. All historic considerations are just supplementary, and you know it. Laws, whether local or international, cannot support this reason; If they did, there would be no peace in the world.
The rest of your arguments are built on some historic reasons. Not that your reasons or interpretations of history is correct, but people cannot resolve conflicts based on historic considerations. For number of reasons: because it is easy to manipulate historic facts, it would add uncertanty to world relations and bring more conflict etc.
If we were to summarize the above, we can firmly state that Nagorno-Garabagh legally is part of Azerbaijan, it was and will be. I think you people should really work hard on making sure that your children do not grow with the hate towards “Azeri-Tata-Turks”. This kind of ultra-nationalism, disrespect to other nationalities and hatred is just unacceptable.
Unfortunately though the wold community is just does not care about this!
Rashid… it is not IRiVAN.. It is YEREVAN.. when you speak of places … please refer to them with THEIR PROPER NAMES….
And here is a revelation for you… ARTSAGH WAS, IS and WILL BE PART OF ARMENIA…
I understand how hard it is to have a tyrant and a Genocidal physco as a leader but believe me, it is much better if you stop your nonsense and learn the history from the right sources and not from your GREAT dictator Aliyev…just a suggestion..
And when we point out the truth.. it does not mean we are doing hate speeches.. you denialists are VERY GOOD at using this line for our advantage but not realizing that everything said on our pages are pretty much 100% justified… If i am not mistaken what we are dealing with are Turks-Tartar-Azeris… right??? When you refer to us you refer to us Armenians correct?? so WHAT IS THE PROBLEM with us calling you Tartar-Azeri-Turk.. are you not an Azeri-Tartar or a Turk????
Gayane
We were nearly exterminate as a people. Don’t you understand that at all?
We all lost relatives in the genocide. I personally lost 8 great-grandfathers, 1 great-grandmother and their father who were burned alive in a barn.
You are demanding generosity, forgiveness and peace from the wrong side.
I couldn’t even read your last comment. You clearly think we are on equal footing and you have regular arguments in a very irregular situation which you cannot possibly relate to.
Show some compassion or stop arguing.
Caren jan.. unfortunately we can’t expect much from such denialists… who have been misdirected and misinformed… they have no heart nor brain cells to think on their own feet.. they throw back what they have been taught…
I don’t know why Rashid keeps talking because we told him to produce evidence or shut the heck up..
Rashid,
The strongest argument is a people’s right for self-determination. Artskah’s population has decided that they are NOT a part of Azerbaijan. They want to be independent. Do you get it? Get over it for your own sake.
I am sorry to disagree with you Gina but I don’t think that’s right.
You are suggesting that the principal ‘Possession is nine tenths of the law’ be applied here. That isn’t appropriate because of possible situations where someone came to be in possession of a contested item/land or whatever through a crime or an unfair dealing.
You may also feel like Nachigevan is Armenian land but the minute it was handed over to Azerbaijan the first thing they did was remove our language from being taught at the schools, destroyed our churches and indirectly pushed out the entire Armenian population. There are no Armenians left there now and by your principal there never will be again.
The right method is to make sure that a crime isn’t being or hasn’t been committed when possession of the land changed hands. I think when Nachigevan was handed over we had no leverage and no say so whoever had power to divvy up land back then had their own agenda in remapping it the way that they did.
Rashid,
Just be happy a place like azerPyjan exist today!! and thanks to stupid Gorbachev, who gave freedom to azerPYjan as a new republic…you supposed to be part of Daghestan of Russia today!! Armenia has a long long Christian civilization, way before Turkic and Tatar invaders to Caucasus area.. check Google map in internet check Armenian Highlands, you will have full of surprises, that azerPYjan name is not there…your beloved country supposed to be part of Iran’s Azerbaijan. Your Southern brothers and sisters are so proud to be part of Iranian people and culture today, and they don’t consider themselves as part of Turkic world, or part of Heidar and Ilham dynasty!!
good retort to Rashid, Gayane. When someone writes this: ‘our Great National Leader Heydar Aliyev ‘, in capital letters no less – you know they have drunk the Azeri version of the “Jim Jones cool aid”.
BTW Rashid, ‘Azeri-Tatar-Turk’ is no insult: it is an accurate description of the ancestry of some people that reside in Azerbaijan.
Unless you belong to one of these other ethnic groups that also reside in the present country of Azerbaijan: Tats, Talishes, Udins, Lezgins, Zakhors, Luitsis, Avars, Kurds.
Tatar is not an insult either. Tatars are a Turkic speaking ethnic group. (look it up). We say Azeri-Tatar-Turk to differentiate Turkic tribes that settled in the present country of Azerbaijan from ethnic Turks in Turkey.
There is no Ethnos ‘Azeri’: it is made up, fake. Like ‘Soviet Man’
There is an Ethnos ‘Turk’. Also ‘Tatar’. Same as ‘Armenian’, or ‘Persian/Iranian’.
The word ‘Azeri’ was misappropriated from North Iranian region ‘Azarbaijan’ (with a).
Well said Avery jan.. Thank you.. Excellent post…
Gayane
Sorry Caren: your interpretation of what Gina said is incorrect. Self-determination is not the same as (adverse) possession. Gina is not advocating adverse possession.
Armenians of Artsakh are NOT in adverse possession of Artsakh: they were and are the indigenous inhabitants. They did not invade and dispossess others.
Self-Determination (of Human Beings) is a superior right to Territorial Integrity.
Why ? because:
“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”
Ahmed teach your illiterate leader the facts of the history (His Royal Highness, lol, laham Aliyev) that your communist father Joseph Stalin swapped Artsakh for oil. Artsakh and the rest of our forefathers’ lands captivated by your Tatar’s bros. must be returned to the indigenous people (namely Armenians) and you Azaris and Turks race back to your country of origin (Tataristan). I hope you will pass this message to your rulers. Case closed.
Avery,
Thanks for the clarification. The bottom line is that Artsakh was Armenian, is Armenian,m and will be Armenian from whatever angle one looks at the issue.
I think we are having a misunderstanding between ourselves.
My general argument is that you can’t claim ownership of something simply because you are in possession of it if it can be demonstrated that you took it without having rights to it.
So what I am saying is that we shouldn’t use “adverse possession” to claim that land because we have stronger, more tangible bonds/rights to it.
It is as if we make our claim more tenuous by invoking adverse possession.
Rashid,
You still do not get it… your country brain washing machine is so strong, that most Tatar-Turks do not see the reality, before kneeling to Allah, for very first “namaz” of the day.. Alioff created so much hate toward Armenians, that even people with Armenian sure name can not get into Baku’s Airport, same when Alioff’s daddy, Haidar created pogroms against Armenians in Baku and Samgait.. raping and killing Armenian women was a very common honorable behavior among Tatar-Turks gang bang groups!!They even gone further and finalized and destroyed all Armenian monuments in Nakhichevan, something even Hitler never done to Jewish monuments…your little children got trained and paid by daddy Ilham to become future snipers for Artsakhi and Armenia’s border lines ..How that possible for Armenians live side by side with Tatar-Turks population peacefully???who started all these wars and hate crimes?? in 1988 if Armenians of Artsakh voted for independence, Turks were included at the time…plus USSR was fully alive when Artsakhi Armenians voted 1n 1988 ahead of any other Soviet republic, but you Turks went for your ancestral old habits with the help of Soviet troops started orgy killing and bombing Artsakhi Armenian population…yes Rashid never again we are not in 1915 of Ottomans time.. we Armenians observed and learnt all Mongol-Turk treats and tactics for over 1000 years now..no more brotherhood and no more blood shade and genocide…you invade to our country, Armenia or Artsakh , we will kill as many as Tatar-Turks we can…never think that “GarabaGH” will return back to Tatars again…very next goal is how to liberate our next ancestral land, Nakhichevan, so be prepared for that!! I am sure Alioff’s gold visa card is loaded with Israeli Shekel, they will make strong and proper underground shelters for brave Tatar-Turk soldiers.
Apres Grish jan… lav asetsir…
Rashid, Read all about it – We, the Armenians, are expecting (sooner or later) for such an apology from your leaders for massacring 1.1/2 million of Armenians. Thereforer, shut your big mouth and don’t utter your words as a politician/historian – hahahahahahah:>>>
Turkey’s prime minister apologized Wednesday for the first time for the killings of nearly 14,000 people in a bombing and strafing campaign to crush a Kurdish rebellion in the 1930s, reported the Associated Press.
The apology by Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan was no big change of heart but a political tactic to tarnish the reputation of the opposition party, which was in power at that time. Still, comes at a tense time for relations between Turkey and its minority Kurds, and it sparked calls for Turkey to face another dark chapter of its history—the Armenian Genocide.