Cemal Pasha’s Grandson Says Genocide, Morgenthau’s Great Granddaughter Doesn’t

Hundreds of Armenians turned out at UCLA last Thursday night to hear with great apprehension Hasan Cemal, the grandson of Cemal Pasha, one of the top three Turkish butchers of the Armenian nation. This unique and controversial event, titled “From Der Zor to Dzidzernagapert: A Conversation with Hasan Cemal,” was organized by AGBU Asbeds.

Understandably, there was great tension in the air. The large hall was filled to capacity and many were turned away due to a lack of room. The presence of armed policemen and security guards inside the hall was both reassuring and disturbing. Cemal confirmed that he was cautioned against coming to Los Angeles, but fortunately everything proceeded calmly. The most shocking thing that evening was not what Cemal said, but what another speaker, Dr. Pamela Steiner, the great granddaughter of Ambassador Henry Morgenthau, did not say.

Kurken Berksanlar, the chairman of ABGU Asbeds, welcomed everyone to “an open-minded conversation.” While admitting that some Armenians view with great suspicion Turks who acknowledge the genocide, he believed that “progressive” Turks, who are speaking openly about the events of 1915, “appear to be above and beyond the reach and control of today’s Turkish government.” Berksanlar then introduced the keynote speaker, Hasan Cemal, and the two discussants, Dr. Pamela Steiner and Prof. Richard Hovannisian.

A columnist at Milliyet newspaper, Cemal immediately won over his skeptical audience by greeting them in Armenian—”parev harkeli paregamner“—and telling them, “I came here to open my heart and open my mind to you…. I know your pain, your grief of genocide, your grief of Meds Yeghern.” Ignoring Article 301 of the Turkish Penal Code, which bans the use of the term Armenian Genocide, he courageously repeated those words several more times during his talk. He also condemned the Turkish government’s denial of the Armenian Genocide, calling it “colluding in the crime!”

Cemal described his deeply moving 2008 visit to the Armenian Genocide Monument in Yerevan, where he laid three carnations in memory of his close friend, Hrant Dink, the Armenian journalist who was assassinated in Istanbul by a Turkish extremist. While visiting Yerevan, he had a startling encounter with Armen Gevorkyan, the grandson of the man who in 1922 assassinated his grandfather, Cemal Pasha.

Cemal described the progress made in Turkey during the past three decades on the recognition of the Armenian Genocide, going from total denial to an apology campaign, the restoration of Armenian churches, and holding academic conferences on this topic. He asked Armenians to come to Turkey to participate in the “recovery of memory.” He urged them never to forget the past, without becoming its captives.

While Cemal’s candid remarks left a good impression on the audience, Steiner turned off the attendees with her adamant and intentional refusal to use the word genocide. Instead, she used such typical Turkish denialist terminology as “tragedy,” “suffering,” and “events of 1915.” As director of the Inter-Communal Trust-Building Project, she spoke about “possible steps towards building trust between Armenians and Turks.” She stunned the audience by asking Armenians to acknowledge that “the Turkish people [who] suffered horrendously during World War I…need and deserve acknowledgment for that!” As if that request was not outrageous enough, she went on to urge Armenians to “consider acknowledging Turkish suffering before they receive an acknowledgment for theirs!”

During the question and answer period, when I pointed out the irony of Cemal Pasha’s grandson freely using the term Armenian Genocide, while the great granddaughter of Amb. Morgenthau would not, Steiner’s response was inadequate. Her justification was that she was playing the role of a “facilitator,” seeking “conciliation” between Armenians and Turks.

The final discussant, Prof. Hovannisian, in a stern voice, gave a polite, yet powerful response to the previous speakers. He told Cemal that the large Armenian audience had come not to listen to him as a Turkish journalist, but as the grandson of Cemal Pasha. He explained that understanding the Turkish perpetrators’ mindset cannot in any way justify their actions. He cautioned everyone not to equate Armenian suffering resulting from intentional destruction with the suffering of Turks as a result of war. He emphasized that Armenians were seeking not only recognition, but, more importantly, restitution of their confiscated properties. He urged the Turkish government to return the hundreds of Armenian churches in Turkey to the Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul. Finally, in a direct allusion to Steiner, Hovannisian emphasized that “conciliation” required “acts of contrition.” His remarks were greeted with a standing ovation.

I found Cemal to be both candid and brave. He could have easily avoided the use of the term Armenian Genocide, maintaining that doing so could land him in jail. However, he made no excuses and used the genocide term several times. Considering his grandfather responsible for “the Great Catastrophe,” he described today’s Turkey as “a manic-depressive country.”

Although it is not easy to forget that Hasan Cemal is the grandson of one of the three masterminds of the Armenian Genocide, it would be wrong to hold children responsible for the sins of their parents. His position has dramatically evolved since his Boston appearance two years ago, when he avoided the term Armenian Genocide. I asked him privately at the end of his UCLA talk if he was not concerned that he could be taken to court for using the word genocide. Even though he said he did not think so, he found it important enough to mention my concern in a column he wrote in Milliyet upon his return to Istanbul.

The only sour note in Cemal’s words that evening was his rejection of demands for the return of Armenian territories from Turkey. Nevertheless, it is not surprising to hear a Turk, no matter how tolerant, defend his country’s territorial integrity. He did state, however, that the Turkish government should apologize to Armenians and pay compensation to them.

On the other hand, Steiner, as a Jewish American and direct descendant of Amb. Morgenthau, cannot be excused for her persistent refusal to use the term genocide, despite her self-avowed good intentions. Anyone who does not acknowledge the truth of the Armenian Genocide loses the moral authority to play a constructive role in Armenian-Turkish relations. One cannot remain neutral between a victim and victimizer. She should heed the wise words of Holocaust survivor and Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel who stated: “Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim!”

As facilitator between the two communities, Steiner probably believes that she should not take sides. But telling the truth is not taking sides between Armenians and Turks, any more than acknowledging the Holocaust is siding with Jews. Furthermore, it is not clear what exactly her role is as facilitator. Genocide is not a dispute that requires the services of a mediator. How can she reconcile two nations without the victimizer first making amends for what her own great grandfather called “the murder of a nation!”

Two days after her talk at UCLA, Steiner sent me a lengthy e-mail explaining further her role as facilitator and insisting that Amb. Morgenthau would have supported her work. I cannot pretend to know her great grandfather better than her, but being familiar with the ambassador’s humanitarian efforts during and after the genocide, I have no doubt that he would have done everything possible to bring justice to Armenians, rather than remaining neutral between the perpetrators and their victims.

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Harut Sassounian

Harut Sassounian is the publisher of The California Courier, a weekly newspaper based in Glendale, Calif. He is the president of the United Armenian Fund, a coalition of the seven largest Armenian-American organizations. He has been decorated by the president and prime minister of the Republic of Armenia, and the heads of the Armenian Apostolic and Catholic churches. He is also the recipient of the Ellis Island Medal of Honor.

80 Comments

  1. I want readers to know that some of us have known for years that Pam Steiner has been conducting her secret own version of TARC at Harvard University.

    We have urged the Armenian American press to cover this, and we have been totally ignored.

  2.   It sound like it was an extraordinary event. I attended the Harvard sponsored appearance of Hasab Cemal  and i agree that his position has become much more direct with the truth. In Boston, he was courageous and somewhat enlightening, but it sounds like he has really come to terms with his identity. i recall during the Q&A he took on a fellow Turks who had taken a denialist position. He was visibly moved by the comment and challenged him. it was a new dynamic for many in the room to see a Turk challenge another Turk on the genocide.
             Despite the challenges and setbacks, let’s step back and minute a gauge the progress. Turks and Armenians sharing a stage on the genocide. Every time a Turk speaks publically on the genocide the impact is exponential.

  3. Sometimes those of us writers and researchers know more about well known individuals than their own flesh and blood.  I have done intense research on Ambassador Morgenthau and plan to inform facilitator Steiner that while Ambassador Morgenthau never used the word genocide, since that word was not in the English vocabulary until WWII, he did use the word EXTERMINATION, which means to get rid of (as by killing).  He used this word in one of his messages to Secretary of State Lansing and it can be found in reel 22 of Ambassador’s papers in the Library of Congress. 

    For those interested in reading Morgenthau’s history of the Armenian Question it can be found on Groong:  http://www.groong.org/orig/km-2010021.html 

  4. Ambassador Morgenthau also used the term “annihilation of race” with regard to the events he witnessed in 1915 in the Armenian-populated vilayets of the Ottoman Empire. The term “genocide” was coined by Lemkin only in the early 1940s. So, at least she could repeat the term which her great grandfather used in his official telegrams to Washington. What a shame!

  5. As an Armenian, I’m a little confused about the statement “… that some Armenians view with great suspicion Turks who acknowledge the genocide.” So we want them to acknowledge it, but we view those that do with great suspicion? huh?

    As for Ms. Steiner, there is no need for the “mediate” anything. Justice has nothing to do with mediation.

  6. I know I am going to be ‘stoned’ for being unpatriotic. But sometimes I think we Armenians live in a totally different reality than the rest of the world. I can’t believe that some of us still think about restitution of confiscated goods not to talk about confiscated land!!!! Soon Armenia is going to be left without anyone. What are we going to do with the possible ‘restituted land’???? Of course, this will never happen, but even to THINK that this is a possibility… I think we are just totally mad and out of touch from world politics. And I don’t think this is at all a good think if we want to survive as a people.

  7.  I’m not clear as to who hired and is paying Steiner to be a “facilitator.”  What is this person supposed to be facilitating? Thanks David Boyajian for this info about her. Please tell us more.

  8. People’s opinion on issue of Armenian Genocide should not replace Armenians who were murdered (not only killed) and Armenian’s homeland. What Armenians should and must do is to become a powerful nation so that their guns would speak for them rather tan their tongs.

  9. It is very sad that Pam Steiner pussyfooting around the word Genocide!It is also good to know about Prof.  Hovannisian’s statements.
    Last but not least, Mr. Camal’s statements are encouraging that yes there ARE enlightened Turks in this world and we don’t hate anything but their governments who keep on denying the Armenian Genocide” !!

  10. I wonder would the Jewish community need to hear about the mass suffering of the German population during WW2 BEFORE THERE COULD BE RESOLUTION BETWEEN THE TWO?

  11. Anonymous, you certainly have a point. But then kindly explain how out of the blue the State of Israel has been created, how Eastern German lands were reunited with FRG, how Hong Kong was attached to China, how Eritrea, East Timor, and Kosovo became independent states, how empires, such as British, Ottoman, and Soviet break into many independent states? Did these nations, too, live in a totally different reality than the rest of the world?

  12. It was encouraging to hear Hasan Cemal’s recognition of the Armenian Genocide at the lecture at UCLA, whom is Jemal Pasha’s Grandson, but the big disapointment was Dr. Pamela Steiner’s talk on not using the “G” word on the well documented Armenian Genocide.  Did she not read her Great Grandfathers book on what the Turks did to our people or did the Turks or Jewish Organizations silence her on this issue?  She must be further interviewed on our Genocide and ask why. Stephen T. Dulgarian

  13. If Pam Steiner is from Morgenthau’s Family 
    It doesn’t mean she carries the same honest genes like him
    The opposite is true for Hassan…Jamal pashas grandson. 

    Every one of them are mixed from many genes
    They carry only the names 
    Which doesn’t mean much 

    Famous Arab poet Almutannabi said,
    “Don’t say who was your father, 
    Say who I am.”
    (La taql man kana abi, kul man ana)

    “The names can me changed but never the genes.”

    Sylva

  14. maybe it’s because we were backstabbed multiple times by the turk’s…what would you like for the armenian’s to do..MR.AGBU

  15. Morgenthau’s Great Granddaughter must be under influence of Mr. Fein and Mr. foxman…
    I will not surprise during 95-Th anniversary of Jewish Holocaust, the wealth and money of  Mr. Fein and Foxman will prevent their great granddaughters to remember Jewish Holocaust, just like Mr. Ahmadinejad of Iran…

  16. I’ve been told the link to Reel 22 from the Morgenthau’s papers from the Library of Congress is not working.  Here is a draft from Morgenthau’s papers.  It’s interesting this same article is no longer on my webpage.

    For the last six hundred years their history is a record of persecutions, a real martyrdom. No where else the abuse of brutal force has been so great as in Turkey. The conquered Christians have not had security of life, honor or property. Religious toleration has been practiced under most humiliating conditions. Churches should be small and not conspicuous; no bells should ring; a Moslem had a perfect right to stop a Christian on the street and cut his head off to see if his sword was sharp enough. A Christian should have an extra handkerchief t take the dust off the shoes of a Moslem at a signal.
    It is only after second half of the 19th century, under pressure of the European countries, whose influence was growing- that the condition of Christians in the capital was improved; those living in the interior were and are still in the same insecure state.
    As a result of this oppressive rule, the number of Armenians has greatly decreased.
    Massacres: Thousands have been massacred periodically:
    In 1896 (reign of Abdul Hamid) 300,000 perished by violent death, disease, hunger and exposure.
    In 1909 (Young Turk Regime) 20,000 were massacred at Adana. Thousands have been forced to become Moslems, and many have emigrated to Europe and America.
    But the mass of the people have persisted to stay in their country and maintained, in spite of all persecutions, their national institutions, racial traditions, language and religion.
    European Powers have principally taken interest in the Armenian Question since the last Russo-Turkish War (1878), when they obligated Turkey by Article 61 of the Treaty of Berlin to introduce reforms in the Administration of the Armenian provinces.
    The demands of the Armenians were most elementary: They wanted rights of security of life, honor, and property and equality before the law. They wanted the establishment of a regime of order and justice under European control, as experience had proved to them that the Turks would and could do nothing by themselves in the matter of reforms. These simple rights have been denied them.
    On account of political considerations and rivalry, the Great Powers have never been able To agree to force the Turks to fulfill the provisions of Article 61 of the Berlin Treaty.
    Reasons of Persecution manifold: 1. Political 2. Economic 3. Social and Religious Political: The Turks have been unable to assimilate the Armenians. The latter are on a higher plane by their civilization and culture. On account of the terrible sufferings they have endured, in spite of their loyalty and services to the State, they, the Armenians, have naturally turned their eyes to the European Christian Powers for help and deliverance. Turks have resented this bitterly and in order to avoid foreign interference-instead of following the wiser course of reforming their administration and thereby solve the problem at its roots- they have decided to annihilate the Armenian race and thus terminate the Armenian Question.
    The Turks want Turkey for the Turks alone. Therefore by all imaginable means they have tried to exterminate the Armenians.
    A misconceived, narrow, nationalism-combined with a fanaticism of the blindest and darkest kind- has been one of the chief causes of these unprecedented persecutions.
    Economic: The Turks have been a warring race. They left the Commercial field to the Christians and the Jews. They have had the army and the administration of the country in their control.
    There are some merchants, artisans and agriculturists among them, but the vast majority of the Turks are public officials, soldiers and laborers.
    The non-Moslems have become rich through commerce and industry, while the Turks, in spite of all the assistance they have received from the Government have made no progress in that line.
    To show you how the Armenians control commerce and industry in Asia Minor, I will mention the following statistical facts regarding the province of Sivas, where the Armenian population is not so large as in some other vilayets.

    Of 153 factories in vilayet of Sivas, 130 belonged to Armenians, 20 to Turks.
    Number of workmen amounted to 17,000, of these 14,000 were Armenians.
    Of 316 merchants, 268 were Armenians, 36 Turks, and 12 Greeks.
    Of 37 bankers, 32 were Armenians and 5 Turks.

    As the Turks could not overtake the Armenians, the Government would periodically organize massacres and hamper them all the time in order to check their progress.
    Social and Religious:
    Fanaticism. The masses of the Turkish people are in dense ignorance and fanaticism. The number of Turkish schools very limited. Armenians are unquestionably far more advanced in culture. They have their own schools which they run at their own expense, while the Turkish government schools are subsidized by the Government.
    The Armenians (like all other non-Moslems in the country) pay taxes for public instruction but receive no support from the Government for their schools.
    The Government does not favor the creation of new schools by the Christians, on the contrary they raise all sorts of difficulties to hamper and obstruct.
    Just before the deportations there were:
    785 Armenian schools in Turkey, with an attendance of 82,000 students, while there are only 150 Turkish schools, with an attendance of 17,000. The Kurds do not have a single school.
    This ignorance of the Turks, coupled with religious prejudices, has been another cause of disagreement between the Turks and the Armenians, and has rendered the masses of the Turks a ready tool of persecution in the hands of wicked leaders.
    A Christian is never regarded by a Moslem as his equal. A Christian is considered as a raya, a serf, a subject, never a citizen enjoying equal rights. And when you consider that not only the ordinary people, but the rulers also think the same way, and that really there is not a single governor thoroughly prepared for his position, you would naturally expect nothing else but these lamentable results. Recent Developments: Present European War and its bearing on the Armenian Question.
    The present party in power; its sympathy for the Germans growing out of their enmity to Russia.
    While they were at war with the European Powers, they wanted to avail themselves of the opportunity to exterminate the Armenians while nobody could stop them. Political considerations prevented Germany and Austria from interfering with the atrocities committed by their Turkish ally.
    The Turks claim that they had to resort to these stringent means for their safety as the Armenians were not loyal. But even supposing that the deportations were necessary, nothing can justify, as the Turks admit it themselves, the atrocious crimes which were committed.
    Methods of Extermination:

    Requisitions, goods taken without payment, resulting in economic ruin.
    Confiscations
    Forced exorbitant contributions and taxes
    Searches in Armenian houses for arms, but in reality for pillage.
    Bastinado, torture beyond imagination, too obscene to be related.
    Forced conversion to Mohammedanism.
    Massacres, partial and wholesale, women, children and old men and women not spared.
    Deportations: Slow death, with all accompanying horrors on the way. No means of Transportation, had to walk on foot most of the way. En route attacks by bands of criminals especially liberated from prisons for that purpose. Women, young ladies violated daily, at each village on their way; many of them taken to harems; families separated; mothers threw themselves into river with their children to save themselves from shame.

    No provisions made for food or shelter for these unfortunate people, many of whom are educated, and well-to-do people, who are not allowed to draw their own money from their bank as the Government had confiscated it together with their property as `abandoned property’.
    They sold their furniture at ridiculously low prices when they were ordered to leave their homes and start on a trip with an unknown destination. They sold pianos at $5, cows at $3. Even these moneys were stolen from them on the way.
    There are bishops, doctors, lawyers, professors, journalists among them, dead, dying…Thousands have died of exhaustion, exposure, disease, want of food. Corpses of children were seen on roads by travelers.
    Relief Work:
    Americans have been the first and most important helpers.
    Interest of America purely humanitarian.
    Missionaries have been foremost. Their sympathy towards Armenians very deep their whole work has been among them.
    Activities of Embassy, consulates, and Missionaries in distribution of funds and food among sufferers.
    Money goes direct to its object; no expenses, New York philanthropist is paying expenses himself.
    Present rupture of relations between America and Turkey has not affected work of relief. We have three distinct channels for transmission of relief funds, and have devoted and reliable workers on the field there for their distribution.
    Hundreds of thousands of Armenians need immediate help. Latest telegrams received from Turkey and the Caucasus make strong appeals for continued help. No funds on hand, already overdrawn $40,000 to give the poor people a morsel of bread.
    If interested in reading more from Kay Mouradian’s historical research, connect through her website.
     

    Professor Kay Mouradian is a health and physical education specialist
    retired from the Los Angeles Community Colleges. Her publications
    include Reflective Meditation: a Mind Calming Technique, A Guide for
    Those Teaching Yoga in the Community Colleges, and she has also
    contributed publications in several magazines and newspapers. Her
    first novel, “A Gift In The Sunlight: An Armenian Story”, now in its
    second edition, was inspired by her mother’s remarkable survival of
    the Armenian Genocide. http://www.aGiftInTheSunlight.com/

  17. I wish Cemal Pasha’s grandson visits Sydney Australia too, so we can have the same emmotion like the armenians in USA

  18. I agree with David Boyadjian that Dr. Pamela Steiner’s stated position should not come as a surprise to any one who has followed her professional activities. On more than one occasion she has stated  that “members of a facilitation team, such as myself, do not express our own views on issues that are controversial between the communities with whom we work. Thus in our work with Armenians and Turks , we do not express our views on whether there was genocide” ( page 5, Healing and Reconciliation For all Peoples of Asia Minor and Istanbul,The Henry Morgenthau Remembrance, Athens , 26-27 September 2008).
    The real and most important question is therefore  to find out who has commissioned her, or invited her, to play such a role ? Did Armenians and Turks approach her (jointly, separately?) to ask her to facilitate such a dialogue between the two parties? And if so, where do we stand on actual results since this initiative was launched?
    Sassounian seems to be shocked that the “greatgrandaughter” of Morgenthau has refused to characterize the events, massacres or the tragedy of 1915 as genocide. But why attach importance to her simply because she was the greagrandaughter of Morgenthau (what does that mean in any case and why idolize her ) ?
    Dr. Steiner is not an authority on genocide by her own admission and she is only “interested” in exploring approaches that bring “about the possible healing of Armenian and Turkish communities”. Why is she doing this ? I assume that in doing this  she is either motivated by i) humanitarian interests and feelings, or ii)  scholarly pursuits and research  and/or iii) making a living as a consultant (paid by whom?). In inviting her to this event, the organizers gave her a unique opportunity to express her personal views from a very narrow professional perspective. The fact that she is a greatgrandaughter  of Morgenthau does not mean much from that perspective, nor should we bestow on her any “credentialsm of moral authority ” based on progenitive considerations.
     

  19. It must certainly be true that Hasan Cemal has evolved since his Boston appearance, a process that must have been a prolonged storm of the soul and something difficult for us to imagine. He has certainly opened a door and set a sterling example for his fellow citizens. Mr. Sassounian asked him if he was concerned about being tried for using the word genocide and he bravely shrugged it off. But I’m not so sure. In his case and in that of Pamuk we see the long arm of article 301, which reaches across all national borders to squelch the free speech of Turkish citizens wherever they are. This is the reach of the most benighted element within Turkish society which, I dare say, passes even over the head of the president and the prime minister to make a complete mockery of the idea of a “European Turkey”. I wish Mr. Cemal the best of luck in avoiding the penalties of article 301. Maybe others will be emboldened to follow his lead and dare to use the only term that gives focus to efforts at reconciliation.

  20. You are absolutely correct, Hovsep. Who is paying this woman? What is she trying to facilitate? I hope it’s the return of my father’s land, money, cattle, pillaged goods. I hope she’s trying to facilitate an apology to me for the brutal rape and murder of the women and children in my family. I don’t care whose greatgrandaughter she is.Why are we giving her a platform? It’s getting close to April 24. Careful.
    thanks, Kay, for taking the time to write this informative account.

  21. Յարգելի հայրենակիցներ,
    Արթնացէք եւ ուշքի եկէք, ասպիսի ելոյթներ նպատակ ունեն մեզ անընդհատ շեղել մեր բուն ուղուց։ Իրականում այստեղ կան երկու կարեւոր հետին հպատակներ։ Առաջինը այն է որ այս ելոյթներով Թուրքիոյ պետութիւնը փորձում է սպիտակ PR սփռել իրենց մասին ի դէմս ամբողջ հայ ազգին, մանաւանդ Սփիւռքի հայութեան հանդէպ։ Իսկ երկրորդը այն է ինչ որ միշտ էր, այսինքն՝ Աթաթուրքի արտաքին քաղաքականութեան թակարդը, պարզ ասած՝ շեղել հայ ժողովուրդի միասնութեան եւ կազմակերպման ներուժը, ենթարկելով զայն շփոթի եւ հակասական ընդհանուր կարծիքների։ Զբաղեցնել նրանց խելքն ու միտքը անպտուղ ճառաբանութիւններով եւ ըսի ըսաւներով, մինչ Մայր Հայրենիքը օրից օր շրջապատել, պառակտել, ծակ ընդդիմութիւններով մոլորել, եւայլն։
    Վեր կացէք քոյրեր եւ եղբայրներ, Հայրենիքը 100 տարուայ ընթացքում վերանալու է աշխարհի քարտէզից։ Թէ՞ Ցեղասպանութիւնը ճանաչեն թէ՞ ոչ, ջահանամի կոռը… Մեզ մեր հողերն եւ փոխհատուցումն է միայն հետաքրքրում։ Մեր հողերը ամբողջութեամբ…
     

  22. Thank you  for bring it up Hovsep Melkonian, 
    (The real and most important question is therefore  to find out who has commissioned her, or invited her, to play such a role ?)
    I’m  interested to know that also.
    Does she thinks that she knows the truth better than her grandpa? If it’s so, let her only to fool herself but not me.  

  23. Anonymous, why NOT think that recovering our lost lands in possibility?  Certainly the Turks think so, otherwise they would have acknowledged the Genocide long ago. 

    How many years was the ARF ridiculed for not being realistic about the end of Soviet control of Armenia?  While the ARF did not, and perhaps could not, do anything which could objectively create the fall of the USSR, at least by keeping hope alive it laid the subjective groundwork which helped Armenia sieze the opportunity when it arrived.  Instead of dreaming like those crazy Tashies, it seems everyone else was too busy trashing the Yerakouyn and kissing Uncle Joe’s ring.

    As for your call for realism, try breaking free of your defeatist, giavoor mentality and let yourself walk with the dreamers and romantics.  Who would move to our newly liberated territories?  First, there are many crypto Armenians who already live there who would welcome the right to live in freedom.  Second, payment of financial reparations to individuals could be conditioned on returning to those lands.  Forget about patriotism, let good old capitalist financial incentives, the same ones that you are claiming are depopulating our country, be used to repopulate our recovered lands.

  24. Thanks Kay for sending the article about Morgenthau and your professional written book. 
    We should be proud as Armenians to have a lady like you, humble and intelligent.
    Although i know many stories about Genocide including my mother’s, but you spoke about yours in an American way…first you ignored your mother’s life because you were involved with your hard life in America to live and survive and later you realized you should know how much your mother suffered through her life…and she never forgot her childhood painful stories till she died…this happened to my mother also…I can understand well what you went through… 
    Your long years research…as you said for twelve years in every angle of Genocide and finding Morgenthau’s most important article which covers almost everything is very important for every Armenian to read and distribute.

    Every story has its pain and yours is very dedicated and professional
    and we all are proud.

    Please, I advice every reader on this site to see professor Kay Mouradian’s interview an know about her book ” A gift in the Sunlight”

    Sylva

  25. Hovsep is right on the money! We all know that such programs are funded and sponsored . Someone is footing the bill… Who and why?
    Secondly, I find this obsession with the Morgenthau family unhealthy.Why do we treat them like royalty ? Ambassador Morgenthau did what his conscious dictated. The rest that came after him are they of the same caliber? Treat them, and respect them as individuals in their own right, not because they accidentally bear the name. How many idiots we know became king in spite of themselves .Who cares for them, any way.
    I also question organizor’s selection of Dr. Pamela Steiner as a speaker. If they knew  she was no genocide expert, why did they invite her ? If they knew of the work she had done in her professional capacity , and still invited her, they should face the music and be charged with the responsibility  of causing stress to the entire Armenian community by their irresponsible behavior. Mind you, I am not advocating censoring people and their opinion. You can always invite Dr. Steiner to speak to any audience about conflict resolution, reconciliation so on when there are others presenting their views and techniques too to the audience. Whether you agree with her objectives is another matter. Whether such experts are effective is another matter .I for one , because of my past responsibilities in international organizations, have seen and worked closely with such academic experts whether in Rwanda, Iraq, Cyprus and Palestine. The results are there for all to see. Unfortunately this is the world of academicians: lots of good ideas that have a short life because they are not of practical nature , baed on the notion of quick fixes, with no follow up and hence give no results. The only think they do is to add some books on the shelves…
     

  26. I think Hamasdegh has the right take on the issue.  The organizers bear responsibility for who they invite as speakers.  We don’t have to agree with or like what Ms. Steiner has to say.  But it is instructive for us to hear this point of view and formulate our response to it.  We are entitled to question her motives and to challenge her position, but not to assume that she will see things as her grandfather did.  She is Morgenthau’s grand-daughter, not clone, though I too feel disappointed that she seems to have allowed a veil to be pulled over her eyes and obscure the truth her grandfather understood.   I hope those who are qualified, will debate points with her, but her genetics are not relevant to the discussion.  She is an individual.  

    I personally have no problem acknowledging that the Turkish people suffered during WWI.  War is hell, after all.   But don’t compare those apples with the oranges that are the suffering of the Armenians at the hands of the Ottomans.  The two can’t be put on opposite sides of a scale to see if they balance.  Clearly the genocide of the Armenians and deliberate destruction of a nation far outweigh the inevitable casualties of war.  What’s the point anyway?  Is the idea to say, “Let’s just agree that both sides suffered and move forward from here.”  This simply dilutes the magnitude of the crime committed by the Ottomans and CUP and dodges the scales of Justice. Or is the point to appease the Turks to lure them to the negotiating table?  This may have some merit if it can lead to a true peace, but not if it means that the truth is compromised along the way.  Turkey must face the truth they have denied for 96 years and allow their citizens to confront their history and then move forward from there…

  27. My question would be the following:  Why not a larger auditorium?  When you go to all the trouble of inviting a Turkish journalist, a close friend of Hrant Dink, the grandson of Cemal Pasha, to Los Angeles to speak, why not have an auditorium large enough to accommodate the community? Some teachers had required their students to attend; unfortunately, over 150 students were asked to leave the auditorium (they may have been able to watch over closed cable in another room, but for that, they could have seen a recording in their classroom), and older folks were turned away from the door by ‘bouncers’; in fact, Marash Girl had to push her way past the ‘bouncer’ in order to witness this historic event, and then watch as disappointed young people were made to leave — good for the planners for putting this together, but next time let’s have a bigger auditorium, please.

  28. It’s really stunning that Ms. Steiner is unable to see what her grandfather clearly saw: that an imperial army, reinforced with and abetted by criminals, was used to eliminate the indigenous citizens of that very country!  War – entered into by the rulers of the bankrupt empire – was just a convenient cover, a curtain, behind which they carried out their crimes of theft, murder and pillage. Does anyone find it odd that the grandson of a key architect of the genocide can admit to the truth, yet someone else, neither Turkish or Armenian, is defending the denialist point of view?  I’d be very surprised if Abe Foxman & Co. are not somehow involved, in addition to all their neo-con Turkish friends. I’m all for resolving differences, but blaming the victims or equating them with the imperial Ottoman army and the Young Turks is no way to do it. She should stay away from all this, just as Armenians should stay very far away from her.  Her cards have been put on the table, so it’s very obvious who she works for. Not clear, however, is why.  

  29. Henry Morgenthau III, the grandson of the ambassador does not hold the same view as Steiner. So something went wrong with Steiner at some point.
    The comment “consider acknowledging Turkish suffering before they receive an acknowledgment for theirs!” is infuriating! No Armenian is denying suffering to begin with. It’s not about who suffered, it’s about how and why. War brings suffering even without adding genocide into the mix. I think Steiner is completely misguided here. She seems to be of the opinion, like many others, that it’s easier to push the Armenians to ask for reconciliation than the Turks.

  30. Dear Krikor,
    perhaps I am defeatist, but this defeatism comes from my experience of what is going on in Armenia and Karabakh presently. People are leaving the country in HUGE numbers and I am becoming ever more depressed about our inaptitude to govern ourselves. You talk about financial incentives and crypto-Armenians. Who is going to put these good financial incentives in place to attract people on the hypothetically liberated lands?  I still think it’s folly to think we could get any land from a country which has 60 min (may be more, I don’t know the exact statistics) population and one of the greatest armies in Europe if not the world. Moreover, I traveled to Turkey last year and having seen what is going on there, on our lands… No one, or, let’s say, very few people, have any second thoughts about the fact that these is THEIR country. The Turkish flag is omnipresent, on Armenian or Byzantine monuments (may be a sing of insecurity, on the other hand?) What are we going to do with these people? Massacre them, like what was done to the Palestinians? Again, only hypothetical questions about a hypothetical future. But I hope you are right, that I have a giavoor mentality and that the future will prove me wrong!

  31. Steiner appears to continue Israeli stance… none others shall have suffered Genocides.  Too, using the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians as a truth to be bandied about – together with a Turkey.
    Manooshag

  32. Hye, evidently the AGBU are inept in the politics of presenting the issue of Genocide… over these many years. This event was ill prepared and represented… Too, to have turned away those of our own – even our youth turned away…  AHMOT!

  33. TO ANONYMOUS  and all who think like him.
    Firstly if Armenians have left for work over the past  dozen or so yrs  
    Armenia, there is nothing to be surprised about.
    1.The horrible Earthquake-Gorbachov´s promise  to rebuild Leninakan in 2 yrs a bluff.People suffered  there tremendously.i was there after 3 months  w/help saw the devastated areas.Fact  is could not find house where far relative left.2 had taken refuge in school,was told and rest  under debris…dead.
    2.The war  ,our good neighbours(cousins  of great Turkey) imposed  on Armenia/Artsakh took so much effort  to get them OUT ,ONCE  AND FOR ALL OF OUR BELOVED ARTSAKH…
    3. When  when  aid arrived and after that monies  pumped  in regularly.no wonder  some ex-soviet  minded  thieves,as well as  new ones started to steal,also commenced  to do even worse sell off  the soviet  installed  machinary  of plants.The INFRASTRUCTURE  THUS WAS  RENDERED  RUPTURED…GONE  KA P U T!!!
    Enter  new int´l Loans aids(with kick  backs attached to same)what Armenians are all ANGELS, NO KORRUPCIA?
    wHEN
    REGIMES CHANGED  IN OTHER  PARTS OR REVOLUTIONS  CIVIL WARS OCCURED IN NEIGHBOURING COUNTRIES…Why even from great Turkey 576 million left  it…
    let alone yugoslavs  when latter got dissected, from even Ex-soviet   near all republics.Spain is famous  for  this phenomenon back in 1939 after Civil  war  there 2  million Republicans(communists  left  for good.
    So what  are you trying to do to dishesarten  us further Anonymous.We shall .
    This  Mr. Kourken-another  person  like those  who concocted  up  TARC, or the previous so started  offf long ago with a NEW Sea port Project with  great Turkey some 15  yrs  or so ago , that Armenians should  together buyild with turks. With who,m with Turlkey that  once shut  down the Bosphorus  Dardanelles to mighty soviet Fleet?
    indeed for  short , for when they got notice to OPEN UP  ,IMMEDIATLEYU DID  SO.bUT  WHO IS GOING TO TRUST THESE tURKS yOU?
    ;Mr. Cemal is admitting that  Genocide took place  LET ME ASSURE ALL OF MY COMPTARIOTS  THE DAY IS NOT FAR  SWHEN THEY WILL COME AND KNEEL  AT TSITZERNAGAPERT.  BUT…ONLY THAT  NO  RETURN  OF REAL PROPERTY MY UNCLE AND GRANDFATER  HAD  IN wESTERN ARMENIA , THEIR CHURCHES MONASTERIES , SCHOOLS DESTROYED  OR TURNED INTO MOSQUES…
    FOR GOD´S  SAKE DON´T YOU UNDERSTAND  IT IS ONE OF THEIR TACTICS, WHEN..
    APRIL 24  APPROACHES,LATER  OCCASIONALLY.FOR THEY FEAR MR. OBAMA MAY ANOUNCE AND PRONOUNCE  WORD   GENOCIDE!!!!!
    THEN,it is our turn to tell them go to hell.come up and not only make  MONETARY COMPENSATION FOR   BLOOD  MONEY  OF MY GRAND FATHJER  AND UNCLE  PUT  ON DEATH MARCH TO DER EL ZOE  BUT  I WANT THEIR PROPERTY HOUSE  BACK THEIR STORE RETURNED  ALL THE RICHES  LOOTED  RETURNED.
    IT DOES  NOT STOP THERE,THERE ARE  HUNDREDS  IF NOT A THOUSAND CHURCHES  ERASED AND  OR BURNT DOWN, RUINED  NOT  5 CHURS  LEFT OR A DOZEN TO REPAIR AND SHOW THE EURO AMS  THAT THEY AHVE EMANCIPATED  AND ARE REPAIRTING T HESE .WHO DO YOU KID  MR. CEMAL AND COMPNAY..YOU CAN DO THAT  TO ABOVE  MENTIONED FEW NAIVE ARMENIANS ,WHO ARE ALSO AFRAID  THAT THEY MIGHT GET REPREMAND FROM HIGHER UPS  IF THEY DO NOT ABIDE WITH THEIR RULES..

  34. Boyajian is right. We can acknowledge that the Turkish people suffered during WWI. But I’ll do it in conjunction with the greater numbers of the Russians, the French, the Germans, and the Austro-Hungarians who suffered during the WWI. The question is where were the Armenians in WWI? Were we one of the warring sides representing the Allied Powers? Were we one of the warring sides representing the Central Powers? How humiliating is this juxtaposition of Turkish victims of a military conflict (which they themselves unleashed by bombarding the Black Sea Russian Fleet in 1914), and the citizens of the Ottoman Empire of Armenian origin who were subjected to race annihilation by their own government?! If a speaker at a Holocaust conference suggested that the tragic fates of Germans, as victims of WWII that they unleashed, and Jews, as victims of the genocide, should be juxtaposed, imagine what outcry there would have been in the course of the conference and afterwards. I have a high respect and compassion towards the Jews, but their minimization of the sufferings of the Armenians is incomprehensible and repulsive. How can one victim-nation diminish the sufferings of another victim-nation?

  35. Anonymous – We won’t disappear as a nation due to emigration. We’ll disappear as a nation whenever we lose hope and resilience. No post-Soviet country, even Russia, is apt of governing themselves sufficiently after being a part of the Soviet Union for decades. Armenia is not an exception. And we don’t need to massacre Kurds and some Turks living on our lands in Western Armenia. Kurds and Turks can live with us on those lands. The important issue here is that the lands be placed under the Armenian jurisdiction.

  36. Dear  forum members,
    Please excuse  my very badly written post  above.I typed rather fast and with many typographical errors.Also partially because I had read what Anonymous  or  his like write.These new  lines are to clarify  a few issues.
    Turkey´s 60 0r even 70 million population  is composed  of over 20 million kurds. Add  to that Alevis, hamshentsi Armenians, islamized Armenian(lately converting back to chritianity),greeks and Lezgis what  not some near 6/7 million or  more then you get some 50 million or so turks.
    He writes  Turkey has  the strongest or largest Army in €urope…
    COULD BE, I DO NOT DISPUTE THAT.But can imagine  that  these are let  loose ,let  us say Westward towars Armenia.
    Do you sseriously think the russian are  that simple  that  they will confront  these ASKYARS…with some 5000  or so Russian soldiers stationed  in Gyumri?
    You think they are that STUPID?
    This the age  of Supersonic  Missiles, Rockets.Why even Iran  has quite a few  of those, let alone  a Giant  like Russia.And you believe  the Euro countries  that so far  HAVE NOT ACCEEDED  TURKEY´S  ENTRY  INTO EUROPE ,WOULD NOW WELCOME A TURKISH ONSLAUGHT ALSO TOWARDS  GREECE, BULGARIA OR SYRIA ?
    aLL OTHER  POWERS IN THE AREA  HAVE SOME SORT  OF DEFENSE AND ARE NOT THAT MUCH WEAK AS  MR. ANONYMOUS MAY WISH TO THINK.
    Speculations  are  one thing Reality  another. What  is more  even the Anglo Americans or Europeans wish to have  that  area IN PEACE  SO PRECIOUS DARK GOLD WILL BE PUMPED OUT  WITHOUT HINDRANCES.SO DOES THE RF(Russian Federation)
    Like an Iranian  friend once told me, Turkey is a paper tiger. A bit exagerated, I admit,but again he meant  to say more than anything great Turkey,likewise little brother Azerbaijan are  GIVEN TO THREATS,CHANTAGE  AND OTHER SUCH TACTICS and will continue to do so,in order to be able to fish in muddy waters.
    Fact  of the matter  is the Iraqi Oilfields  coveted by great Turkey is not to be …
    The so called allies  of Turkey will not allow latter to claim it.This maddens  thenm even further.For they had most possibly calculated  they could get  their hands  on it,what  with saddam gone and Iraq  in turmoil etc.,
    So easy Mr. Anoynmous easy.You cannot scare the little Armenia or its huge Diaspora.

  37. Anonymous:
    Have to agree with Krikor: you are too pessimistic.
     
    You say: still think it’s folly to think we could get any land from a country which has 60 min (may be more, I don’t know the exact statistics) population and…”
    Here is the actual  figure (per CIA): 78.8 Million (July 2011 est.) I know it bolsters your case – outwardly.
    However: Kurds constitute about 20-25 Million of that. Their population growth rate inside Turkey is
    twice the rate of the rest of the country. What do you think will happen in say 10, 20, 30 years ?
    No one really knows how many of the rest are real Bozkurt Turks. How many are forcibly Islamized Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians ?
    When Soviet Union was intact, outward displays of Religion were harshly suppressed. If you travelled around any of the 15 republics, you’d think the new Atheist ‘Soviet Man’ was real. As soon as the lid came off, religious practice – Christian, Moslem, etc – exploded.
    What do you think might happen if the Bozkurt Turk-ruled suppression lid comes off ?
     
     
    People that think like you imagine that Armenia’s Army is going to take on Turkey’s Army, defeat them, then Armenians go and repopulate Western Armenia.
    People that think like me (or, I think like them), have this scenario in mind:
    [1] Turkey’s internal structural weaknesses and pressures eventually reach critical mass and Turkey starts disintegrating as a Nation State – with a little or a lot of help from her numerous enemies.
    [2] Forces that previously supported Turkey for selfish reasons now turn against her – for selfish reasons.
    [3] Turkey’s numerous enemies pounce on her and carve her up, same as after the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire.
    [4] Armenia and Armenians wait and watch on the sidelines – until just the right moment has arrived.
    [5] Armenia and Armenians  use this interim time to become wealthy enough, militarily and economically powerful enough, confident enough to take advantage of the opportunity that will present itself.
    [6] This also includes laying the legal foundation for our claims: you know the Big Boys loooove to have the fig leaf of legality and all that….
     
    Even though many people now say they predicted the demise of USSR, in reality nobody did: they just claim they did, after the fact.
    A few years prior to its collapse and disintegration, USSR had the outward appearance of a solid, monolithic Super-State.
    There were Hammer & Sickle Red flags everywhere. There was no end to slogans confidently proclaiming all sorts of fantastic achievements, past and future.
     
    Complex systems (and counties) are inherently unstable: they grow complex and unstable over a long period, but collapse rather quickly when they tip over the point of equilibrium.
     
    Who as late as 1987 or 1988  could  have imagined a Free and Independent Armenia or Artsakh ?
    Did Artsakhtsi warriors abandon their weapons and give up in 1992 –  when the  resurgent Azeri Army had occupied 48% of Artsakh ?
    Did Armenians who had gathered at Sardarabad think “…it’s hopeless, we might as well give up…” ?
     
    Have some confidence in your people, Will Ya ?
     
    ——–
     
    You say: What are we going to do with these people? Massacre them, like what was done to the Palestinians?”
    Not at all. First off, ‘we’ don’t have the massacre-gene in us; we couldn’t do it even if we wanted to.
    At the proper time, there will be a mutually agreed, forced exchange of populations.
    Same procedure that took place between Turkey and Greece in 1923: about 1.5 million Greeks and ½ million Turks were forcibly moved, which was agreed to by their respective ethnic governments at the Treaty of Lausanne 1923.
    I envision a similar exchange not only between Armenians and Turks, but with Kurds who currently live in Western Armenia (trade land for land).
     
    —-
     
    You say: perhaps I am defeatist, but this defeatism comes from my experience of what is going on in Armenia and Karabakh presently.”
    Sorry, it’s the proverbial looking at the ½ full vs. ½ empty glass.
    Nothing that’s going on in Armenia today is unusual: it’s the legacy of about 70 years of lawless Communist rule and economic mis-management: plus centuries of Asiatic/Islamic domination. It’s a miracle Armenia is not worse off than it is now: a tribute to the perseverance and ingenuity of our people.
    Communist rule wasn’t all bad though: Armenia was the most advanced and industrialized of the 15 Republics of USSR, per capita.
    The Armenian SSR Higher Education was unrivalled. Armenian NPP was built then: a crucial source of electric energy.
    Given where it has been, things are GREAT in RoA (yes I know of all the problems; nothing terminal, nothing unique to RoA).
     
    And what exactly is happening in Artsakh that you find so pessimistic ?
    They just built a beautiful new Airport: there will be regular flights; commerce and tourism will grow even more.
    Lots of new highways and roads. New water mains. Lots of new buildings, hotels. A well equipped, battle tested, battle hardened Army, whose leadership has actual battle experience.
    Many problems still, sure. But what did you expect ? Artsakh to become Switzerland overnight ?
     
    ————
     
    You say: The Turkish flag is omnipresent”
    You are correct: it is a display of paranoia and insecurity. How many other self-confident, self-secure countries do you know of with such a ridiculous overabundant display  of national flags ?
     
    Delusional paranoia has gripped the rulers of Turkey. What self-confident, normal leader would order the destruction of an insignificant statue out in the middle of nowhere, as Erdogan did ? What self-confident normal leader would sue (and win), because someone alleged that his mother was of Armenian descent –  as if having an Armenian mother is equivalent to having a non-human mother – as Gul did.
    Fact is, despite their outward displays, Turks are gripped with self-doubt and paranoia. The rulers know that their State is built on lies and quicksand. They know they are living in someone else’s house. They know what happened to the Ottoman Empire – almost overnight it crumbled and disappeared.
    They rightly  fear the same thing might happen to the present State of Turkey. You know the saying:  “You are not paranoid it people are really out to get you”
     
    ——
     
    You say: one of the greatest armies in Europe if not the world”
    I take it by ‘greatest’ you meant largest: it is the 2nd largest in NATO (after US): that’s it. No more, no less.
    It’s combat capabilities are untested and unknown. Last time they were involved in a country vs. country war was the invasion of Cyprus: do you think that was a real test ?
    (I do not include the 20 year battle against Kurds, because it’s very hard to defeat indigenous guerilla forces – who have outside support – even for the best militaries in the world)
     
    Here is another more recent incident that might give a clue of how powerful Turks think their own Armed Forces really are – despite the puffed up image they have created, with the collusion of the West.
    In May of 2010, Israeli Navy attacked and boarded the Turkish civilian ship Mavi Marmara in International waters.
    Israeli naval commandoes murdered 9 civilians on board the ship: 8 Turkish citizens, 1 US citizen of Turkish descent.
    (Like or dislike the Turks, in this case they were in the right, and Israel in the wrong)
    Erdogan huffed and puffed; threatened to send the Turkish Navy to accompany the next aid flotilla.
    Promised to be on board one of the vessels. We are still waiting.
    What happened ? Most likely one of his sane aids informed him that the very capable IAF would  send every one of the Turkish Navy ships to the bottom of the Mediterranean sea, with him on board  to keep the sunken ships and  fish company.
     
    —–
    And finally:
     
    Armenia has tremendous inherent strengths that very few other counties in the world  have: you have to think about it on your own and figure out what those might be.
     
    Global Macro-forces that were aligned in Turks’ favor past 100 years or so, are slowly receding or aligning to the detriment of Turks’ and in Armenia’s favor. We don’t have to fight the Turks: we just need to be prepared to take advantage when they bleed themselves dry fighting more powerful enemies.
     

  38. Stephen T. Dulgarian writes:…did the Turks or Jewish Organizations silence her on this issue?…
    She has a strong and respected position at Harvard University and it may be that the University very likely receives more money from Turkish sources than Armenian. That should paint a clear picture and we Armenians need to recognize that we do have unseen enemies among us, let’s not be naive. 
          AND 
    Kay Mouradian writes:  I’ve been told the link to Reel 22 from the Morgenthau’s papers from the Library of Congress is not working. 
    For everyone, do not rely on saved web pages, always copy and paste them in a document format. I too have lost web pages, it makes one wonder if there’s not more happening to the advantage of some who think ahead of others.

  39. Avery,
    Your in depth description  leaves almost  no room for further details.You are doing fine.
    This Mardheros  is also commenting important issues. This I have also suffered.I had a web site  of my own ,on which I had worked for 5/6 years.My articles  in that  web  page entitled  www.Armenidad-worldwide.org  was taken off the world web,as I was away on a long trip and failed to make the monthly payments. Then when  back i pleaded with them to place  it back on(with my past dues to be paid  by me)  No.deal they have  taken  it to a hosting  or something like that in Australia and after long follow up by me  they said it  is  in another depository-to that effect- called   WAY BACK MACHINE.This is right I now and then go there and can see my articles  that  are marked as Bulletins  there.But try hard as I can I cannot get  these out and bring them back on either to be hosted  again by them, or any other…
    Thence, it looks like  the ¨unseen  enemies amongst  us¨ as he points out could be right.I also have mentioned  a  few times  that our adversary  has Armenian speaking writing agents  who do that sort  of work amongst us.Oh , my grandson-may he rest  in peace- had  once  personally kicked out  some of ¨their¨  hackers  out of our important  web  sites.

  40. Avery,  I really appreciate your optimistic and ‘winning’ attitude as displayed in your last post. Charlie Sheen has nothing on you.  ( No offense intended in that comparison—you have to give the guy credit for never giving up in a fight!).

    Thanks for all the info and for framing our dilemma in terms of the opportunities for success we can hope to achieve if we hang in there with classic Armenian tenacity, industriousness and wit.  I agree that we need to focus on our strengths and build on those.  If only leaders would emerge who could inspire the community to believe, to work together and believe some more…

    I just wish that you would take the time to expand on this statement:

    Armenia has tremendous inherent strengths that very few other counties in the world have: you have to think about it on your own and figure out what those might be.

  41. I wonder how many Armenian from diaspora went to live in liberated Artsakh? How many in free and independent Armenia? As far as I know 1 million left in 20 years. Do a simple math. Then, maybe one fine day we can concentrate ourselves on the most important    issues. 
    It is good to have dreams .

  42. It is great that Dr. Pamela Steiner has an opinion on this matter, it is also wonderful that Cemal Bey has a strong opinion too, and even Mr.  Sassounian has one though none of them seem to be on the same page. 

    John King Fairbank said “history is mostly in our minds”.  Facts are not. 

  43. Murat, go tell the Jews that you have “your own opinion” on mass killings of the East European Jews and see what happens to you. As for facts, kindly provide, as fact of the matter, an explanation as to what could possibly happen to up to 2 mln Western Armenians inhabbitting their lands in the Ottoman Empire? Where are those people, based on your “factual” vision of history?

  44. Yes Murat – everyone is entitled to their opinion on anything, but as we know, opinions are like assholes… everyone has one.  However, if Dr. Steiner really wants to resolve conflicts, since it seems to be her hobby, there are plenty of others that she could and should work on, such as the Holocaust deniers and the Jews, the Palestinians and the Israelis and maybe even the neo-cons and Muslims. If she wants to resolve ‘conflict’ between Turks and Armenians, maybe she should tell her masters that they should – at the very, very least – APOLOGIZE to the descendants of their former subjects, whose land, homes and buildings they have appropriated, live in and use to this very day – for free.  That one little gesture could possibly make a tiny chip on this huge glacier of resentment and anger, just a bit….but I don’t see her doing that. Instead, to her, the Ottoman Empire and its massive army is somehow equal in weight to one of its minority communities, albeit the oldest and most indigenous of all of them. Her duplicitousness in this matter is transparent and frankly, treacherous. Armenians don’t need her to play middleman in this….they need Turkey to step up and act like a responsible adult, not a criminal. Oddly, I think it’s entirely possible, because where there’s a will, there’s a way.  It will take guts on both sides of the equation, but Dr. Steiner is playing with a stacked deck. She should take her cards and go home.

  45. Karekin, Are you the same Karekin who was advocating pure moral suasion and pacifism in dealing with Turkish denialism (on the subject of Turks attending commemoration events) and berating Armenians for being too antagonistic? If so, it seems you have undergone a big change in your thinking. In fact, you’re sounding right on target now!  What happened?

  46. Hye, with all the “misdirected” leaderships which our fledgling Armenian nation has had all these 20 years – beginning with the worst, DerBedrossian until the Serge and his cohorts of today – it is no wonder that citizens had to leave our Haiastan.  When PATRIOTS are elected to leaderships THEN many will return to Haiastan – for their love of the land, for the love of their culture, for their love of Haiastan.

  47. Hye, Paul, as you say:  “How can one victim-nation diminish the sufferings of another victim-nation?” Too, how can a victim-nation of Genocides, the
    Jews, ally with a nation which perpetrates Genocide as Turkeys. Morally!

  48. As most my attempts previously to answer some of the questions and comments such as above in more depth have not met the approval of the esteeemed editors, I will keep it short.

    Who knows maybe one day there will be a Turkish government who will take it upon themselves to offer an apology.  It would not be from me.  I can not think of a single good reason why any government of Turkish Republic should feel obliged or authorized to offer an apology on this or any other historical matter.  Why not then apologize for the conquest of Constantinople?  In fact, why even bother with a rather meaningless and empty gesture?  Those individuals who feel otherwise should do whatever their hearts dictate, all the power to them I say. On the other hand I also expect some respect for the facts, you know, the real actual facts.

    Are there no wrongs that call for a real official apology from the Turkish Government?  Of course there are.  The treatment of the Greek minorities in the early 50s, Varlik Vergisi outrage, the assault on the left leaning intellectuals during the cold war years, treatment of innocent Kurdish citizens, Christian minorities etc..  These are all black stains on every Turkish citizen’s conscience and I personally find the recent gestures, policy improvement and admissions totally inadequate.

    Can there not be a gesture without an unwarranted apology?  Certainly.  Restoration of old churches, relaxation of numerous and ridiculous restrictions on minority groups, full acknowledgement of the rich multi-ethhinc and multi-religious cultural heritage of Turkey, fostering the ancient Christian communities in Asia Minor are good examples and some have become reality already.  Much more meaningful and productive than an empty gesture in my opinion. 

  49. Maybe one day a Turkish Government will take it upon itself to issue an apology.  It will not be from me.  I can not think of a single good reason why any government of Turkish Republic should apologize to anyone on this matter.  Not only this is not in a government’s job description, they simply do not have the moral authority for such empty “gestures”.  By the way, it would be empty.

    Does this mean there can not be any real gestures towards this much abused minority in recognition of the thousands of years of Armenian heritage on these lands and how they are and have been an inseperable part of Turkish identity?  Of course not. 

    Does this mean there are no wrongs done by the Republic of Turkey governments in the past, no blemishes, no truly shameful acts for which the Turkish parliament should issue an apology?  Of course not.

  50. Manooshag, I too want to see patriots lead Armenia.  I understand why so many have left Armenia in order to make a living.  But what kind of patriot leaves their nation to the “wolves?” We need patriots and repatriots to lead the nation at every social stratum now, not just when some ‘hero’ comes along and saves the nation.  What one person could accomplish this without the help of an army of ordinary patriotic citizens who are willing to serve their nation and each other?  

    Murat, at least you are honest enough to admit you don’t feel the need to apologize.  But I find fault with your reasoning.  You suggest that since earlier conquests are unapologetically accepted as history, the genocide should similarly be taken in stride.  “All’s fair in love and war”, eh?

    However this thinking fails to reflect the development of humanity and civilized society in our current era.  You are a man of our times, aren’t you Murat?  We live in the post genocide convention era.  We (humanity) have seen the evil that nations commit against their own citizens and against one another and have given it a name and have agreed to condemn it.  Are you suggesting that we turn the clock back?  Are you suggesting that if my clan decides to pillage your home, kill your sons and force your daughters into servitude (euphemism for all sorts of evils), you would shrug your shoulders and accept it as part of life?  Man, at least acknowledge evil for what it is.  Explain why Greeks and Kurds, Christian minorities (does this include Armenians?) and left-leaners are worthy of apologies, but not the Armenian nation. You speak of a black stain on Turks consciences for these acts.  Why not for the genocide?  What facts, ‘real facts’ are you suggesting we lack knowledge of?  

    Keep your apology, but at least admit the truth.  That’s where I’d like to start.

  51. If her strategy of neutrality works then she could have avoided some bloodshed by boarding Mavi Marmara heading to Gaza strip last year. 
    OPINION: There are three possible reasons why Dr. Steiner refused to use the word Genocide. 1) She has been paid to not use the word Genocide. 2) She envies Armenians. 3) She is very smart and knows that by leading Turks not to recognize the Armenian Genocide she will lead Turkey to self destruction.  

  52. Dear Ananymous,

    There were roughly 2 million Armenians living in Armenia 2000 years ago.  Today there are approximately 2 million Armenians living in Armenia.  Coincidence? I suggest not to worry about Armenians leaving Armenia and instead encourage them to do so. Why? Because had there not been a Armenian Diaspora, be it in US, Europe or Russia, then we could have probably be without Armenia.  We don’t need more than 2 million Armenians in Armenia (with today’s borders).  So we need to either take back our lands and populate according to our land size or emmigrate to all corners of the globe (and still keep on populating) untill Turkey volunteerly gives us back what belongs to us.  They know we are smarter than them and that they will soon come to a dead end. As long as we don’t give up.  I won’t.

  53. Murat: You wrote: Does this mean there are no wrongs done by the Republic of Turkey governments in the past, no blemishes, no truly shameful acts for which the Turkish parliament should issue an apology?  Of course not.
    If you can bear the truth and want to know the extent of those “shameful acts,” read Taner Akcam’s “A Shameful Act.”
    then go and hang your head in shame for being a genocide denier.
    AR. Steiner doesn’t sound “very smart” to me.

  54. Murat, you say:

    Can there not be a gesture without an unwarranted apology?  Certainly.  Restoration of old churches, relaxation of numerous and ridiculous restrictions on minority groups, full acknowledgement of the rich multi-ethhinc and multi-religious cultural heritage of Turkey, fostering the ancient Christian communities in Asia Minor are good examples and some have become reality already.  Much more meaningful and productive than an empty gesture in my opinion.

     
    My question is: Can there not be an apology that is not an empty gesture, but one that brings about true healing for both peoples? 

    Your April 9 and 10 post are inconsistent with each other.  From the the latter post I gather you advocate restorative acts by your government that acknowledge Armenians, their contributions and their rightful cultural institutions, but not an apology for genocide. Is this because you see it as an empty (meaningless) gesture, or because you don’t accept the designation of genocide?  What then do you call what happened to the Armenians?  And what “warrants” an apology.  Do you simply choose to dismiss all the abuses of the Ottomans and the CUP as “pre-republic” and “prehistorical” and thus no longer relevant?

  55. I suspect Murat does not know or realize, or perhaps does not want to acknowledge that pre-1915, Armenians were the largest non-Muslim minority group in the country, and represented 25% of the overall population. Or, that Anatolia and the Armenian plateau have always been the Armenians’ native land until it was all stolen from them by the Young Turks…or that Armenians built everything in Turkey from Seljuk monuments to the Blue Mosque to the Dolmabache palace for their masters, as well as thousands of edifaces for themselves, such as Ani, Akhtamar and others. I suspect that Orhan Pamuk and lots of others in Turkey know these facts very well, and are embarrassed by their government’s idiotic position on the genocide, the disappearance of a huge swath of native peoples and are just ‘confused’  and perplexed at how to come clean about it all in the 21st C.

  56. Karekin…You reached a stage you can’t tolerate any more…Like the famous Arab poet Al-Mutanabbi (915-965) who said I am a prophet and he was killed and has very famous stanza…and many others…I like this stanza very much…

    “Eda anta akramta alkarema  Malaktaho
    wa id anta akramta al laeema tamarda”

    “If you dedicate for a gifted person…you will own him forever
    and if dedicate for a cunning person…he will be against you and your enemy”

    The first line of this stanza applies on gifted Armenians those who worked hard and build Ottoman’s dynasty
    and the second line applies on Turks…for what they did to Armenians…

    The stanza is more powerful than what i translated…with gifted beautiful meaningful words and artful rhymes…

    I wrote because it applies on Turks and every inhuman… 

    Sylva

  57. COINCIDING  WITH DISCUSSION HERE RE ABOVE,I READ  IN ARMENIANWEEKLY-ARMENIAN VERSION- WHAT PANTURKISM  OR PANTURFANMISM  MEANS TO A VAST MAJORITY OF THE TURKS AND/OR POPULATION,PEOPLE INFLUENCED  BY  THESE.WHOSE LEADERS ARE THE INHERITORS  OF THE FAMOUS  ARPARSLAN TURKESH(died)DOCTRINE…THAT  OF GREAT  TURAN AND AS THEIR MILITANTS  THE   G R E Y   W O L V E S . UP ABOVE  BOYAJIAN IS TRYING TO TEACH ONE  OF THESE WOLVES WHAT  HSITORY IS….AND THAT FURTHER BELOW OTHERS COMMENT AND TRY TO EDUCATE  THESE  PEOPLE. I SUGGEST INSTEAD  OF THAT ASK THEM TO GO TO ANY EUROPEAN OR AMERICAN LIBRARY OR OTHERS  AND GET BOOKS  TO READ RE ARMENIANS.DON´T WASTE  YOUR TIME BY INVOLVING YOURSELVES  WITH FRUITLESS STRIFES. THESE PEOPLE ARE  THERE ALONGSIDE A VERY SOPHISTICATED GOVT.OFFICIALS  WHO SAFEGUARD THE TURKISHNESS…AND UNFORTUNATELY…THE EURO AM GOVT.S  SUPPORT  THEM  THINKING  OR CALCULATING  THAT  LIKE ARNOLD TOYNBEE  WROTE  THEY WILL  DRAW  A BLACK  LINE  BELOW THE UNDERBELLY  OF  THE EX SOVIET  UNION WHICH IS STILL A GREAT RUSSIA  TO COPE  WITH…
    FURTHERMORE,OUR PRESENT SITUATION AS A DIASPORA ,NEAR SEVEN MILLION PEOPLE OR LESS WHATEVER, WITH A SMALL INDEPENDENT  REPUBLIC AND ANOTHER NEXT  TO IT LIBERATED  LAND  OF  ARTSAKH-A THORN IN THE SIDE  OF GREAT  TURKEY ,MORE  THAN AZERBAIJAN,DAY IN DAY OUT WORRIES   THEM…THEY ARE  VERY MUCH AFRAID  OUR MARCH TOWARDS TOTAL RECOGNITION AND RESTITUTION WILL PREVAIL.
    IT IS ONLY DEPENDENT  ON OUR  EFFORTS  TO GO AND SEEK RECOGNITION NEAR SMALL AND MIDDLE SIZED GOVT.S  NOT  THOSE  ABOVE  MENTIONED…WE NEED THE WORLD  MORE  THAN A COUPLE SUPERPOWERS…FOR  OURS  IS A ONE NATION CRUSADE  SO FAR. NPO OTHER IMPORTANT  ONE HAS REALLY AIDED  US WHOLEHEARTEDLY.YES EVEN  A COUNTRY  LIKE  FRANCE HESITATES TO HAVE  THE OTHER ISSUE AT SENATE  CONFIRMED  ADN PROBABLY  USES  IT AS A BARGAINING CHIP  WITH TURKEY.ALL THESE  POWERS ARE OUT  FOR THEIR BENEFITS  NOT OURS.WHILE WE SLUMBER AND DO NOT WISH TO STRENGTHEN OUR DIASPORAS  BY BECOMING  ONE   F  I  S  T

  58. why do you make a big difference between apologizing for the varlik vergisi and the crimes against the Ottoman Armenians, Murat? Why should the Erdogan Government apologize for the one and not for the other? The present government is technically speaking not responsible for any of these misdeeds. Yet we see today governments apologize for misdeeds of previous governments, manned by the forefathers of the present rulers.
    Why this difference? I am just curious!

  59. The bottom line remains – Dr. Steiner has no business in this matter. She’s clearly an opportunist who is also very partial. To Murat’s point…yes, positive ‘gestures’ can be helpful, and it is true that small things do add up over time. They give a hint as to what is really possible.  However, if a true change of policy and approach is what is really desired by Turkey, it will take something that literally costs nothing….such as a blanket apology to Armenians. No cost….high symbolic value. Every child learns this….every responsible adult should not forget it.  When does Turkey grow up?

  60. 1.   The only Armenians who must deal with Turks are our oppressed brothers and sisters in the so-called Republic of Turkey.

    2.    Why do we care if the Turkish state acknowledges and apologizes if these hypothetical acts are unrelated to the welfare of Armenia and reparations?   I would prefer that they be a good neighbopr, end state-sanctioned racism,  and make reparations to making an apology, which is just words. Can we expect a state which murdered and oppresses its own people to act liberally with regard to the descendants of those against whom it and its predecessors committed Genocide?

    3. As both Easter and April 24 approach, let us ignore Turks [other than to pray for the enlightenment of their souls] and contemplate instead how to strengthen each other and maintain our culture.  

  61. “The present government is technically speaking not responsible for any of these misdeeds.”
    If the present Turkish government is not responsible for the Armenian Genocide, what
    does possibly prevent them to apologize for what their Ittihadist predecessors
    have done? Another puzzle based on bizarre Turkish mentality…
    “[…] the crimes against the Ottoman Armenians”
    The crimes against Ottoman Armenians have a specific name, as acknowledged by the
    inventor of the term “genocide” Raphael Lemkin, the consequent UN Genocide Convention
    of 1948, dozens of foreign federal and provincial parliaments, UN Subcommission
    on the Rights of Minorities, 44 states of the US, scores of professional
    associations, many advocacy and human rights organizations, the most prominent
    Nobel Prize winners, and the prevailing number of genocide scholars, historians,
    and international lawyers. Every crime has its specific name… The crime of genocide
    against the Western Armenians is not an exception.

  62. “These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. –– Mustafa “Ataturk” Kemal, founder of the modern Turkish Republic and revered throughout Turkey, in an interview published on August 1, 1926 in The Los Angeles Examiner, talking about former Young Turks regime in his country.

  63. The reason an apology is important is that it is an admission of guilt and shows some remorse. It also serves to cleanse in a way that will benefit not just Armenians, but also Turkish society. It is a first step that will lead to more positive developments. Why do we care about Turkish society? We have to care because of the hundreds of thousands of Armenians who still live there, as well as many of our most revered historic sites. We also caannot forget that it is the original homeland for a large percentage of those in the diaspora. Where are Mush, Aintab, Harput, Kars, Van, Sepastia, Malatya, etc., as well as the thousands of kyughs?  These places are not in today’s Armenia.

  64. Unfortunately, a logical and detailed answer to the all imprtant question of why not an apoloogy is not deemed appropriate for the readers here.

  65. I don’t believe it, Murat.  But if it is true that the administrators of this page censored your post, its content must have been objectionable.  I am sure well-substantiated con positions would be permitted, while sheer, unsupportable genocide denial may be rejected.  This site has no obligation to assist those who wish to deny the truth and spread genocide denial propaganda.  Don’t know what you said, but if it would serve justice, I encourage you to try again and ask the administrators to allow it.  But don’t expect this site to help you, and others so inclined, to shroud the truth in darkness.

  66. Murat, what would you demand from a murderer of your grandparents, mother, your pregnant sister and her small children? Does this question deem appropriate to you? If yes, be a man: answer it!

  67. Many historians now agree that the denial of genocide is the perpetuation of it.  It is innapropriate for it to be repeatedly published here. Censorship is not what happens on this site. Good judgment is simply being used. Most sites ban offensive or libelous material. here’s what censorship really is: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=ipi-report-declares-turkey-world-leader-of-imprisoned-journalists-2011-04-08
    this was carried in many international papers, including this turkish one.

  68. It sounds like Murat is blaming the administrators for his inability to make a convincing argument.
    Maybe he should simply follow the lead of the Turkish columnists below who have had enough of
    article 301 and the jailing of journalists and openly referred to the Armenian genocide without saying “so-called” or using quotation marks around it. The truth cannot be hidden forever.

    See paragraphs 6 and 7 of

    http://www.todayszaman.com/news-241509-monstrosity-in-kars-is-striking-back-by-orhan-kemal-cengiz.html

    =================
    See 7th paragraph of

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=what-unites-and-divides-turkey-and-iran-8211-on-israel-2011-04-07

  69. In my opinion, some people like Murad do know very well what did happen to Hrant Dink, who spoke the truth not to long ago, it is much easyer to be ignorant than be a civilized, to aknowledge the wrong treatment to the others and then try to repair the damage. Unfortunately, people  like Murad have a long way to get there .

  70. By no means I am bitter or resentful for some of my posts being witheld on this site.  Though it is a strange coincidence that they seem to be to be the more substantial and fundemental ones.  After all I do realize that there is no obligation and this is a highly nationalist outlet. 

    Those of you who are regulars here also know or have observed that I do not resort to name calling or insults or pettiness.  There is nothing objectionable as far as language and general good manners is concerened in any of my posts, published or not.

    Maybe another time another thread, but just keep in mind that some of your questions are left without an answer, from me at least, because the editors make those choices.

    What I expect, even for my ancestors who are wronged?  Nothing.  Just simple respect of facts would suffice.  As I pointed out earlier, for me history is history, nothing personal. If we use it as an excuse for self-definition or easy comfort of victomhood, then we need to accept the fact that it works both ways.

  71. “What I expect, even for my ancestors who are wronged? Nothing. Just simple respect of facts would suffice. As I pointed out earlier, for me history is history, nothing personal. If we use it as an excuse for self-definition or easy comfort of victimhood, then we need to accept the fact that it works both ways.”

    Well, this was the most cynical answer. Does the whole nation of Turks think like you? If they do, then it just reassures me that Armenians must employ every method and for as long as necessary until your nation is faced the fact that the bulk of the international community has recognized your ancestors’ crime as genocide and Turkey is obliged by the international legal verdicts to pay
    reparations and land restitution for committing it.
     
    If you expect nothing from others who wronged your relatives, will you accept it as “simple respect of fact” if tomorrow Armenians break into your house and burn your relatives alive (as Turks have done to the whole Armenians villages) in front of your own eyes? Or you comfort yourself to the fact that as Christians, not nomadic Seljuk barbarians, Armenians will never do this to other human beings? If so, might you know why you nation complains about the Kurdish insurgency? Why won’t you “respect it as a fact” that Kurds are entitled to killing your Turkish ilk? Whatever is done stays in history, according to you, right? So, just watch your sister raped in front of you (a widespread Turkish practice in 1915), and leave it in the history a minute after the crime. Can you do it? After all, according to you, “history is history”, right?

    Our sense of victimhood is not a comfort; it exists because of your unrepentant nation and individuals with weird mentality like yours. It will cease the moment your nation apologizes to us for the wrongdoings. If it won’t, then, I’m sorry to ask this, what is the difference between compassionate human beings and unrepentant animals?

  72. That wrong treatment  by the Turkish  government  to Armenians on 1915,  UN and many civilized nations  called it a Genocide . Until today Armenians are living by it’s affects, scattered all over the world, instead living in there ancestral homeland, this is also because, the Turkish governments hasn’t taken any steps to do something about repairing the damages of their predecessors.
     As long as the Turkish government do not return the belongings of the Armenians back to them, and keep it secret from the people, then this government is participant in the crime also, and this could be bad on a long run not only for Armenians, but for Turks as well . 

  73. Hasan Cemal is so empty that he does not even know that he has not READ deep enough and he talks based on hearsay for bravados. Morgenthau’s book is directly belied by his own hand written diary. (some twenty) US Consuls reports sent to Morgenthau at time of relocation does not carry one word of massacre, and strangely they were not sent to Washington; he sent them to Lord Bryce and these came up in British archives. “Preposterous Paradoxes of Ambassador Morgenthau” is available free on line. My experience is that it is a complete waste of time to make any “documentarily supported argument” with your blog and you DO NOT POST ANY “different view or voice”… Enjoy and celebrate “myths” ladies and gentlemen… I do not know how many commentators have taken the trouble to cross check the information they hear or read… It seems there are too many “authorities who have not read or checked” the Dunning Kruger syndrome for a start. Best wishes and regards

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