Who knew that being a KGB operative during the Soviet era qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that having political opponents killed during the war for Artsakh’s liberation qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that “winning” the Republic of Armenia’s first presidential election through fraud qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that founding the current, corrupt, kleptocratic oligarchy that rules the RoA qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that banning the ARF from operating publicly and jailing many of its leaders under trumped up charges during the mid-1990’s qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that engaging in activities designed to disrupt and disable the three original Armenian political parties qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that once ousted from office, completely disappearing from the public arena until the opportunity arose for another ego-driven, anti-Armenian-interests-serving-based candidacy for president qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that cynically meeting with ARF leaders in an effort to rehabilitate one’s public image in the lead-up to the 2008 election qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that being a proximate cause of the death of 10 people (though clearly the ultimate blame lies with the authorities in power) during the post-2008 election demonstrations qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that arrogantly ignoring Raffi Hovannisian’s presence in Freedom Square while he was engaged in a hunger strike in service of, ostensibly, the same cause—Armenians’ liberation and Armenia’s development—while leading a rally in the same place qualified someone to be a Christian?
Who knew that saying “Christianity to me is primarily a moral code [of conduct]… This code categorically rejects the blatant display of virtues—piety, charity, humility—including a public display of fasting. When a virtue is put on exhibit, it ceases to be a virtue” and then, quoting from a 5th-century writer (whom he probably read during his years as a scholar in the bowels of the Madenataran and not out of any pious interest), adding, “Satan destroys a person that’s fasting who puts himself above others and wants to make his actions public for others to admire his courage,” thus demonstrating extreme cynicism in doing exactly what he’s condemning by wrapping himself in religiosity to deflect appropriate criticism, qualified someone to be a Christian?
In short, who knew that one of the most destructive elements on the Armenian political scene, Levon Ter Petrosian, was such a Christian? You might write him and tell him not to dishonor the church and Armenians by cloaking his chicanery in Christianity.
Garen, I would suggest you instead of advocating your pointless Dashnag agenda of personal grievances towards Ter-Petrossian to formulate your opinion pieces in accordance with the democratic development of Armenia if you chose to talk about Armenian politics at all.
To Armenia’s first looser Levon Ter-Petrosyan,
As a result of how you truly feel deep inside for wrongfully not encouraging and supporting Raffi Hovhanessian’s hunger strike you now are trying to defend yourself by any means.
First, i do NOT belong to any Armenian political party.Your statement that Garen is advocating one party’s agenda is absurd at best. I read this same article and found about the middle of the piece ; he(Garen) mentions about the original 3 THREE parties being adversely affected by this vagabond (L TB).
Would you please provide evidence of any of your wild allegations against Pres. Levon Ter Petrossian ?
Let’s see: LTP was a KGB agent, who spent 6 months in a Moscow jail.
Oh, I see how it works: it was done to establish his bona-fides as an Armenian Patriot, so that he would be more effective as a KGB agent.
The actions of Karabagh Committee indirectly led to the dissolution of the Soviet Union: so, in reality, he was an Agent of the West; take your pick – CIA, MI6, Mossad, a Crypto-Jew, a Zionist… – pretending to be a KGB agent, working for the destruction of Soviet Union: see how nicely it fits ?
Meanwhile, while you and the 3 traditional Armenian political parties were comfortably and safely ensconced here in the West, LTP:
 Joined and became a leader of the Karabagh Committee in 1988, which started the movement to free Artsakh from the yoke of Azeri Tatars.
(The actions of Karabagh Committee, BTW, were the spark that led to the dissolution of the Soviet Union.)
 In 1989 spent 6 months in a Moscow prison for his actions on behalf of Artsakh and Armenia.
 Stayed in Yerevan, with his people, during the darkest days of the Republic, with no fuel, reserves of food almost gone, snow piling up on the streets, war going badly for us …who, when addressing Armenian people in those days never uttered a word of compromise, always speaking of victory, not a hint of panic or fear in his voice, always calm – almost serene – self confident, inspiring a country under siege.
 Replaced the ineffectual former Defense Minister…. and appointed the heroic late Vazgen Sargsyan in 1992, who was largely credited with forging Armenian warriors into a modern, coordinated, disciplined Army – leading to massive defeats of Azeri invaders.
 Was at the helm of RoA in 1994 when Haydar Aliev begged the world powers for a ceasefire.
 Instituted a radical land privatization program that incentivized Armenia’s villagers to produce more than enough food to meet the young nation’s needs.
It is unfortunate that ARF cannot get over the fact that despite their well deserved reputation for carrying the flag of our people in the Diaspora, doing exemplary work to preserve the Diaspora Armenian culture and traditions, and having sacrificed much, it had little to do with the independence of current Republic of Armenia. Even the Liberation of Artsakh was mainly accomplished by Artsakhtsi and volunteers from Armenia, despite the fact that Dashnak volunteers and the Dashnak battalion fought fiercely and won many impossible battles.
Despite its well-deserved popularity in the Diaspora, ARF is simply not that popular in Armenia.
Was it also LTP’s fault that ARF’s candidate in the 2008 RoA Presidential Election got 6% of the vote ?
Was it also LTP’s fault that ARF got 13% of the vote in 2007 RoA Parliamentary Election ?
All Armenians need to push their party loyalty – any party loyalty – to the 2nd rung and think only as Armenians, First and Foremost.
Hate is a stronger passion than love. You’re either ARF or you’re nothing. That line has been preached for over a hundred years. For us nothings, its meant the ultimate sacrifice in the past.
Avery, why was DerBedrossian ‘removed’ from presidential position? For years I heard of all the assets of our Haiastan were being sold by him to pocket the monies for himself. He must have had quite some monies to have fled to France with his Jewish wife and son and purchased a home there. AND, his most revealing unpatriotic stance was when he forbid any ARF forming then in fledgling Haiastan to become as one with ARF worldwide!! DerBedrossian was the first of all the dishonest, communistic minded leaders that have stolen from Haiastan – which continues today. Now, he has the gall to assume he should follow all the current misdirected, ill equipped, inexperienced leaderships – AGAIN to lead our Haiastan? When what Haiastan needs – especially at this point in our history shall be true patriots who can give to ALL the citizens of Haiastan (rather than steal from Haiastan) to UNITE together with all the diasporan Armenians for over all these generations since the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation too while Haiastan was part of the USSR and not a free nation… All the diasporans, these generations of the ARF have carried their hopes and their spirit for our Azad Haiastan. Now, why have all leaders been, as DerBedrossian, self-seekers? Beginning with a DerBedrossian and followed, sadly, by all those and into today, Serge and his cohorts – ill prepared, communistic attitudes still in use in all the levels of Haiastan’s government!
Some of these actions are as vile as what Turks use against the Armenians!!
NONE OF THESE LEADERS OF HAIASTAN HAVE BEEN PATRIOTS!! Not one was/is of the caliber of an Aram Manougian – an honest patriot. Our citizens of Haiastan are worthy and deserving of greatness from their leaders… Leaders to join together with all the generations since our Survivors, and now diasporans, the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generations seeking – together – our Azad Angagh Haiastan – PATRIOTICALLY!! That which today all these current leaderships ALL have been lacking – love of our citizens of Haiastan, love of our homeland of Haiastan – PATRIOTS! Manooshag
Փորձուածը փորձել յիմարութիւն է:
P.S. Avery, and who do you credit with Haiastan being freed of the USSR? I remember thinking that we had been “gifted”… not gained via wars, or worse. Manooshag
His name is Ter Petrosyan not Der Bedrosyan so stop changing people’s names to your liking – respect the spelling. It is easy to trash Armenian politicians about this or that but when you have been sitting on your a$$ in the safety of the US you have no right to talk about how the Armenians in Armenia should behave themselves. Move there and then you can complain all you want!
Avery –– One need not necessarily be a salaried, in-service agent so that an evidence of his association with dreadful intelligence agencies could be produced. Some people sell their souls to the Satan and agree to become recruitees or influence agents, and evidence on them is extremely hard to obtain unless an agency allows a leak to discredit such a person. Too much ado about LTP’s connections with some of the agencies you’ve mentioned, as well as with a sinister secret society, is not evidence per se, but the persistence of it goes beyond allegations. His marriage to Lyudmila Froim Pleskovskaya, the niece of the president of a Soviet Jewish organization, gives people another cause for doubting his bona fides as a leader/politician totally devoted to Armenia and Armenians.
Garen, too many allegations, too few facts.
Who knew bearing false witness qualified someone to be a Christian.
Of course not…. Pres. Levon T-P. is not a Christian. The only true Christians here are the Tashnag party. The following paragraph attests to the Christian values upheld by the Tashnag party.
“On December 24, 1933, a group of assassins attacked Eastern Diocese Archbishop Levon Tourian as he walked down the aisle of Holy Cross Armenian Church in the Washington Heights neighborhood of New York City during the Divine Liturgy, and killed him with a butcher knife. Nine Tashnags were later arrested, tried and convicted. The incident divided the Armenian community, as Tashnag sympathizers established congregations independent of Etchmiadzin, declaring loyalty instead to the See based in Antelias in Lebanon.” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Apostolic_Church
Don’t you people get it…… they just don’t like your party in Haiastan. Tashnags should stick to doing great work in the U.S. and worldwide as they have done for so long…. but not in Armenia. At least not until the people of Armenia want your party to be in power.
And as for the Heritage party leader Raffi, no matter how hard he tries he will not win people over from Pres. Levon’s camp…. Levon is just too smart! Let’s see what Raffi will come up during the next ANC meeting.
I sometimes think that LTP is required to come forward in Armenian politics whenever a turmoil is needed to warn the people that if they become hyperactive in demanding resignation of Robiks and Serjiks, none other than LTP, whom the majority of citizens despise, may pop up in the presidential palace again. I suspect LTP is just being used both by external and some domestic forces to stage the smokescreen of “opposition” and “democratic” elections. Serj, as well as Rob before him, were members of the same LTP cohort. Now they are on opposite sides of a barricade? Hilarious…
What was this churchman’s position politically – as a churchman? Was his stance to perpetrate divisions of our people – rather then that of the need of our churchmen to keep our scattered people together. This is what the Tashnag part has done – now these nearly 100 years – into today. Tashnagtztiun has been IN THE ARENA. (See what Theodore Roosevelt said of the ARENA) Erring, even failing, but what other Armenian organization has placed their efforts, now (nearly our four generations) kept our goals in sight – bringing together – rather than dividing – our diaspora today. Your support for DerBedrossian is as ‘off the wall’ as is DerBedrossian’s mentality. He may well be in the pay of ‘others’ who seek the downfall of Haiastan. He claims Christianity, marries a Jew, steals assets of the citizens of the Armenian fledgling nation, is forced out of office, then leaves for his home in France with his family and has the GALL to return today to continue to ruin the need for patriots to lead our Haiastan in this most vital time of it young, 20 year, history. You and Levon are not smart – you are both mentally misdirected – you are divisive when unity is now what patriots should be pursuing. You are of the ilk who are not patriots which Haiastan needs NOW. Manooshag
your first post:
“why was DerBedrossian ‘removed’ from presidential position ?”
He advocated a “phased” settlement process to the Artsakh matter (?); and the terrible economic condition in Armenia at the time (real, actual, severe situation).
Many in his administration were afraid that Artsakh’s security would be compromised: policy differences.(real ?)
When you are at the helm, you get credit for the good things and get blamed for the bad things (same as here in the USA, btw).
LTP was big enough to resign in view of popular demand, and avoid a possible civil war: I say that was very patriotic.(real ?)
That’s what was presented to the Armenian public world powers. Knowing that little in world politics which is released to the public is the truth, and knowing that the real stuff rarely is publicized, and knowing what the situation was in Armenia and Russia at the time, I am quite sure what happened was pre-planned and executed by LTP, Robert Kocharian, Vazgen Sargsyan, Serzh Sargsyan and the rest of Armenia’s leadership – as response to an untenable situation Armenia was forced into by external powers. It was brilliant and it worked quite well.
“For years I heard of all the assets of our Haiastan were being sold by him to pocket the monies for himself.”
manooshag, can you appreciate how absurd that statement is ? you ‘heard’ ?
I hear a lot of things about a lot of people: show me some hard evidence.
There are volumes of ‘studies’ and ‘analysis’, even by some Professors that ‘prove’ there was no Armenian Genocide – “…only deportations, and some unfortunate deaths on the way, you see”. I am sure you have read lots of those: do you believe that too ?
“. He must have had quite some monies to have fled to France with his Jewish wife and son and purchased a home there.”
When did he ‘flee’ to France: I saw him a couple of weeks ago on TV in public in Yerevan.
Him having a Jewish wife was no secret when he was popularly elected 1st President of the 3rd Armenian Republic.
Do you have any evidence he purchased a home in France ? put up some links from French web sites – let’s see it.
The only information that’s out there remotely related to this is that LTP sent his son to Los Angeles during the political turmoil in early 2008, out of concern for his safety/life – a very reasonable thing for a father to do, wouldn’t you say ? (the information is from Yerevan US Embassy leaks: I don’t have hard evidence)
And the correct English transliteration of Լևոն Տեր-Պետրոսյան is Levon Ter-Petrossian (or Ter Petrossian), NOT DerBedrossian – as Panos above pointed out: You and other ARF members/sympathizers don’t like him (hate him ?), that’s fine. But remember that he was the popularly and legitimately elected 1st President of Republic of Armenia – elected by your brothers and sisters in Armenia. Maybe not ARF members, but patriotic Armenians just the same.
And please re-read the last sentence in my first post – and see if you can take it to heart.
you second post:
“Success has many fathers, while failure is an orphan”
[1942 G. Ciano La vittoria trova cento padri, e nessuno vuole riconoscere l’insuccesso. Victory has a hundred fathers, and no one acknowledges a failure.]
An innumerable number of people contributed to the demise and dissolution of the Soviet Union, which of course allowed Armenia to declare independence. Everyone claims the Lion’s share – naturally. Reaganites claim it was his massive defense expenditures that bankrupted the USSR. Afghans claim it was their defeat of the Red Army that did it. Famous dissidents, like Andrei Sakharov, who risked life and limb when it was quite dangerous to be a dissident certainly deserve credit for planting the seeds of liberty in USSR, which eventually and in a roundabout way led to someone like Mikhail Gorbachev being ‘elected’ General Secretary. Taking advantage of his policy of Perestroika, Karabagh Committee pushed the envelope and demanded Nagorno-Karabagh’s separation from Azerbaijan, under the laws and constitution of USSR. The ham-handed and ineffectual response of Soviet authorities to the events in Sumgait and Baku, and the legitimate, peaceful demands of Artsakh’s Armenians finally exposed the fact that Soviet authorities had completely lost any legitimacy they had remaining.
I have a comment and a question for you, manooshag:
Jews will take full credit for something positive, even if they had only peripheral involvement in it – and I say good for them, and very smart.
Many Armenians, on the other hand, will overlook the great things an Armenian has done and look for something, anything negative to beat them down with.
It’s a fact that the Karabagh Committee’s actions were the final trigger that collapsed the USSR – a historic event.
Yet because the ARF was not involved, and LTP was – it does not merit immense pride in what our Armenians have accomplished ?
Why is that ?
re: “One need not necessarily be a salaried, in-service agent….”
I can assure you that I have a pretty good idea how these games are played in real life: I certainly wouldn’t expect to see pay stubs, wire transfers, etc.
re: “His marriage to Lyudmila Froim Pleskovskaya, the niece of the president of a Soviet Jewish organization, gives people another cause for doubting his bona fides as a leader/politician totally devoted to Armenia and Armenians”.
People can believe and suspect all sorts of things. Please re-read  thru  above in my original post and tell me which one of those historical facts is false.
Then tell which one of those actions you consider not devoted enough to Armenia.
Tell me why LTP would be arrested in his 20s in Yerevan for his active participation of April 24 demonstrations, which Soviet authorities were strictly against.
I can argue that the fact that he is the son Հայրենադարց parents – he himself was 1 year old when his parents immigrated to Armenia – and the fact that his wife is publicly known of who and what she is, precludes him being anything other than what his public actions say he is – too obvious to be a good candidate for an agent.
Of course you can argue that, because he is such an obviously bad candidate to be an agent, he would be a great candidate because being an obviously bad candidate – nobody would suspect him. I can argue the next level down ….. and pretty soon we’d be lost in a ‘Wilderness of Mirrors’ (that by the way, is the title of book about CIA Master Spy James Angleton, who went insane chasing double-spies, double-double-spies, double-triple…..a great book, a great read)
Here is some more stuff, for conspiracy buffs:
 Kim Philby, a high ranking MI6 officer, with impeccable British blue-blood bloodlines, was a KGB spy.
 The Walker Family of spies here in the US, had impeccable American patriotic ancestry, yet were KGB spies.
 FM of Russia, Sergei Lavrov is half-Armenian: is he working for Armenia or Russia ?
 Current FM of Armenia, Nalbandyan is married to the daughter of Yevgeni Primakov – a notorious Anti-Armenia, Anti-Artsakh, Baku-lover: is Nalbandyan an Azeri agent ?
btw: ‘Primakov’ is apparently not his given name: he is said to be Jewish, ‘Finkelstein’. Primakov has neither confirmed nor denied being Jewish.
 Anastas Mikoyan was Armenian as far as the eye could see, and so whas his wife Ashkhen: did he do good for Armenia or do harm ?
 Sultan Hamid is reputed to have had some Armenian ancestry: true ? false ?
 The Young Turk Triumvirate is reputed to have had some Armenian ancestry: true ? false ?
Yegparian is using religion to criticize someone who used religion to criticize someone else who is fasting publicly. Does any of this advance the cause of justice and prosperity for the nation?
I think it is very ugly of Armenians to keep referring to Ter-Petrossian’s ‘Jewish wife’ as a negative. This is beneath those who proudly wear the banner of ‘first Christian nation.’ Also we suffered discrimination and genocide because of our ethnicity and that alone should keep us from doing the same to others. I wish we could discuss the merits or faults of this man as a leader, without bringing his marital choice into the mix. She is not the one in the arena.
Other than this, I like what Manooshag suggests about the ‘arena’ and ARF being in it.
I also agree that we should respect Ter-Petrossian’s chosen spelling of his name. How unbelievably petty when people are suffering and the nation’s security is at risk.
Finally, these words from Avery bear repeating:
All Armenians need to push their party loyalty – any party loyalty – to the 2nd rung and think only as Armenians, First and Foremost.
Now, lets get back to discussing whether Ter-Petrossian should lead the nation.
But first say a prayer for that patriotic ‘public faster’ in Liberty Square.
Boyajian —- I think you rushed into a hasty and essentially wrong conclusion with regard to a segment of my comment re: LTP’s wife. Nothing “very ugly” about his wife can possibly be found in my innocuous statement. The statement, if you re-read it thoroughly, pertained to the uncle of LTP’s wife that formed a societal stereotype and had nothing to do with being “beneath those who proudly wear the banner of ‘first Christian nation.’” Still, the next-to-kin relation proves nothing, and his wife is, certainly, not the one in the arena. But the statement didn’t intend to prove the opposite. It just reiterated the doubts widely held within the Armenian society about LTP’s bona fides as a trully Armenocentric politician. One cannot be stigmatized as “very ugly” for bringing forth a view (however debatable) that exists in a society. Re-read the comment and re-evaluate your response, if you so wish… Yes, we suffered “discrimination and genocide because of our ethnicity and that alone should keep us from doing the same to others.” But those in the highest echelons of the CUP party, who masterminded the mass slaughter of our nation, also belonged to a particular ethnicity or ethnicities and, almost certainly, had an affiliation with a sinister secret society. Emphasizing the former and omitting the latter does not, in my view, contribute to objectivity.
Is it not beneath those who proudly wear the banner of ‘God’s chosen people’ to disparage the similar tragic fate that’s befallen other people?
Soghomon, you were not the first or only one to make reference to Mrs. Ter-Petrossian’s ethnicity, and my comment was not directed to you specifically. I apologize if you felt attacked. I re-read your comment and understand the point you are trying to make regarding persistent accusations about affiliations to questionable and sinister organizations casting a shadow on a person’s reputation. Still, rumors should be carefully examined before being repeated. I am not sure I fully get all your veiled inferences.
Arm-K, of course, I agree that ‘God’s chosen people’ would logically be expected to be more supportive of our cause, based on their own similar history, but you and I both know that geo-politics makes for some very bizarre bedfellows. All the more reason for us to work hard to find good leaders who will be our champions and keep their perspective sharp and focused on growing the nation. But is there more that we should get from your point?
Sorry, Boyajian, if I misunderstood you. But, again, no reference to Mrs. Ter-Petrossian’s ethnicity was made. My reference was directed at the fact that her uncle affiliation with an influential ethnic association that functioned during the Soviet times might have generated added doubts in the public perception–however contentious–of LTP’s bona fides as a totally Armenia-spirited politician. No veiled inferences. Extended family connections and social affiliations may (repeat: MAY) become factors shaping a person as an individual or affecting his or her worldview, attitudes, or even political convictions. But I agree with you that rumors should be carefully examined before being repeated. The easiest way, to me, is to judge a person by his deeds. In this, I wear much less rosier glasses re: the saga of LTP’s tenure in the office than, for example, Avery posting here.
I wonder where was Raffi last three years.He did not know where to fit himself. Instead from “Heritage” party we were seeing a true hero and activist named Zarouhi Postangian who was fighting and dealing all kind of issues. Raffi was doing nothing and, suddenly he came to the Freedom Square, looking so thin and different. I did not know what to think. Whatever he is doing I hope is going to be for his and ,our benefit. God helps us.
Avery —- At least we found a common ground in that spies, collaborators, recruitees, or agents of influence—irrespective of anyone in particular—do not necessarily have to hold “I’m a KGB Agent” signs while marching in the midst of crowds of people at the walk to raise breath cancer awareness, so that co-walkers or bystanders could have evidence of their affiliation. The three traditional Armenian political parties that, as you say, were comfortably and safely ensconced in the West, found their way here as a result of known turn of events in 1915 and the formation of the Soviet Union in which Armenia was a part. I somehow feel I’d insult your intellect if I go into detail as to what happened and why in 1988 (when the Karabakh movement started) or by 1991 (when the Soviet Union broke up), the Armenian parties found themselves outside of Armenia. If you can, kindly explain why when after 1991 all of them did establish presence in Armenia, the biggest and the most prominent nationalist party was refused to comfortably and safely function and was banned based on some wild (and false, as it turned out) allegations? I agree that people can believe and suspect all sorts of things. But the intellectual elite of a society or a nation, as I hope you understand, differs from the bulk of people in that they have analytical-deductive ability to see things through based on sophisticated education, higher level of literacy, knowledge-driven curiosity, diverse professional expertise, and, as a result, broader worldview. Your points  through  are historical facts only on the surface. While these facts—taken at the face value—can easily leave people with a belief that everything happened just the way they were fed, in the intellectuals’ case they must not. Intellectuals attempt to understand the causation of events and I have counterarguments to all of your six points. Many of them, such as how the Karabakh Committee emerged overnight in Yerevan’s Opera Square, what deal the Soviet authorities worked out with some members of the Committee while in Moscow’s Butirskaya prison, and how LTP was “elected” first president in place of Vazgen Manoukian—are evidence- or witness account-based facts that’d take up much space and time here. But if you believe some events or some individuals in the political world appear out of the blue, please read, if you haven’t already, “Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World in Our Time” by Carroll Quigley. This is not a so-called “conspiracy theory” (although these theories often times make the mainstream history look like buffoonery), but a monumental survey of a distinguished Georgetown University professor, Bill Clinton’s tutor, in which he asserts that the course of recent history has been determined at least partially by a small group of elite planners. Many intelligence agencies, among other organizations, in many countries are the cabals of these planners.
Big deal, criticizing spelling name of Levon… HOW when one cannot even respect him. Too, your asinine comment re ” the safety of the US you have no right to talk about how the Armenians in Armenian should behave themselves.” Are you aware that Survivors fled to the civilized nations of the world to flee the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation. Are you aware your insipid attitude is divisive and stupid. All the diasporans world over have had to recover from Turkish Genocide… as did most those living in Haiastan suffering the communism’s mentality – which all these 20 years of Haiastan is still being used against the citizens of Haiastan. Are you aware that the diasporans were the SURVIVORS who had to recover in strange lands, language, foods, cultures and more. Are you aware that the miracle of our diasporans is that they have remained and maintained their allegiance and their efforts for our Haiastan of today to succeed now the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generations!! Your divisive attitude reeks of all the leaders since DerBedrossian until today, Serge and his cohorts. Are you aware that the faults lie with the leaderships of Haiastan today – who being self-centered, steal from the citizenry of Haiastan, filling their own pockets and to hell with the worthy and deserving citizens of Haiastan.It is those such as DerBedrossian who have caused the downfall of the Armenian nation. Don’t blame the diasporans who have fought to maintain their identities as Armenians for nearly 100 years and not, as the Turks had hoped, were to become dissolved in the melting pots – eventually to cease to exist as Armenians. It is attitudes as yours that adds to the divisiveness. When honest and dedicated patriots lead our Haiastan, Haiastan will advance and progress… Armenians, together the world over – are united for our Haiastan – been supportive and despite negative attitudes such as yours. It is the leaderships of Armenia to date that wish to segregate our homeland from the diasporans – foolish mentality, when our strength for Haiastan will progress and advance via ALL Armenians – dedicated and intelligently applied… Aren’t you aware that such as you are still – divisive. Manooshag
DER PETROSIAN? CHRISTIAN? THAT’S THE BIGGEST JOKE EVER! WE HAVE WITNESSED A LOT OF NONSENSE FROM THIS TRAITOR THROUGHOUT THE YEARS. BUT THIS ONE? TOPS IT ALL. LOL
Leave LTP’s name alone …. And your comment about LTP dishonoring our church… I think the church has done a fabulous job of dishonoring our church thank you!! I mean what do you mean he destabilized the 3 original political parties? Is this a joke? These parties have been destabilized decades ago by themselves with their petty politics and weekly kef-nights! All in all, a very shallow article- to many quick conclusions…
Raffi Hovannisian is the MAN FOR THE JOB guys!
I will certainly read “Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World in Our Time” by Carroll Quigley.
re: “…in which he asserts that the course of recent history has been determined at least partially by a small group of elite planners”
Obviously I cannot discuss the book not having read it. However, people write about and develop hypothesis about a lot of things.
From my analysis of publicly available information and postmortems of world events, I have reached my present worldview that: Certainly groups of humans or individuals do oftentimes influence and alter world events, by way of having previously been prepared (as in having prepared the resources) to take advantage of events that randomly develop: however, not as much as is commonly believed. Somewhat analogous to how wealthy people can take advantage of financial situations, and you and I can’t: because they have the resources.
(I do know that ‘they’ – sometimes – do create the crises they later take advantage of: but only sometimes)
Clearly I, like any other layman, have very little, if any, access to classified info.
However, as Mr. Spock said in one of the Star Trek episodes “…If I let go a hammer on a planet that has positive gravity, I don’t have to be present to know that it WILL hit the ground…”
That statement somewhat explains why I see things in the world the way I do.
From your detailed posts and mine, it is obvious that there is only a very small intersection of our sets of beliefs: I am not going to convince you to see things my way, and you are not going to convince me to see things your way: So, we just have to agree to disagree, as they say – and continue working for the betterment of Armenia and our people in our own separate ways.
Regarding the banning of ARF in Armenia in 1994, and subsequent expulsion of the party’s leader at the time, Mr. Hrair Marukhian: I cannot possibly give you an answer that will satisfy you, because of what I noted above in this post.
However, I’ll answer it in a roundabout way, by posing a question to you:
When Mr. Marukian entered Armenia and decided to get involved in RoA’s internal politics, he was a citizen of which sovereign state:
c) Republic of Armenia.
Leave him alone. He’s a walking zombie. Most people who lived in the 1990s in Armenia can’t forget the deliberately harshened consequences of the blockade aimed at crashing the people’s revolutionary spirit. Darkness, hunger, misery, destitution, and unequalled emigration that were allowed to spread. Thousands of deaths, natural and violent. Suppression of dissent and arrests of opposition. Wholesale theft and pillage of Armenia’s natural resources and industrial by-products. Neo-Bolshevik attitudes and mode of government. Impoverishment of intelligentsia. Destruction of academic and scientific structures. Near-surrender of Artsakh. May God judge LTP for his deeds. We must not.
Avery —- An intersection of our sets of beliefs has gotten bigger now with you recognizing that “groups of humans or individuals do oftentimes influence and alter world events.” I’d add: in the world of international politics and international finance even more often- than sometimes. Now, when you have reached this worldview, are you able to admit that influencing and altering world events may sometimes include a county like Armenia and the country’s leaders? I agree that sometimes the events are planned and sometimes “they” just take advantage of events that randomly develop. Moreover, sometimes “they” succeed as, in my view, was the case of bringing LTP to power, at other times, as with his resignation in 1998, they don’t. Neither of the two eternal enemies: the Good and the Evil, can claim permanent victory or permanent failure with a difference being that, as Christians, we must believe that the Good will be victorious at the end.
I’m a layman, too, and have no access to classified information. But in recent years some unclassified primary information has appeared in archives and repositories. Clearly, it doesn’t reveal that a leader is affiliated with an agency or a secret society, but it gives you some food for thought. Each Armenian will continue working for the betterment of Armenia and our people in separate ways, but can this work be done based on what such insignificant, forgotten factor as the PEOPLE, think and aspire for? Can we shift our attention to people’s needs and distance ourselves from past or present presidents, all of whom were not public-spirited leaders?
Re: banning of ARF. I feel you didn’t mean it, but posing a multiple choice question is somewhat condescending. From your “roundabout way” am I expected to understand that ARF was banned as a political party, its headquarters and branch offices closed, damaged, its property thrown outside or confiscated, because Hrayr Marukhian was not a citizen of the RoA? Even if being a foreign citizen involved in internal politics was such grave a crime for LTP-ruled “democratic” regime, might you know why Marukhian alone was not put on trial and prosecuted?
P.S. Carroll Quigley’s account is not “a hypothesis” or a writing about “a lot of things”. As he himself wrote: “I know of the operations of this network [of global secret planners] because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records.” Therefore, it’s an academic study based on primary material made available to him.
thank you for reminding and telling Avery how it was as it was in Haiastan starting from a DerBedrossian leadership and continuing today, sadly, with Serge and his cohorts – all stealing from our bretheren in Haiastan. Too, none of these leaders were prepared to ably lead our fledgling nation – freed of the USSR, and needing the best of our patriots to lead our nation – when, instead, these have been who actually stole the presidency of Haiastan – were the worst that our Haiastan was worthy and deserving of. Those of the same mind set as an Avery, those who support the ilk of a DerBedrossian and all those who have followed him in the governing of our Haiastan have been thieves – not only our citizenry of our Haiastan – but. appears these so-called ‘leaders’ too, have stolen from the diasporans – the 2nd, 3rd, 4th generations since our Survivors. NONE OF THESE LEADERS HAVE BEEN PATRIOTS – ONLY SELF-SEEKERS! AHMOT.
When shall patriots, as those historically were the honest leaders of Haiastan are again the leaders of Haiastan – Haiastan will progress, advance and shine amongst the civilized nations of the world – honest patriots giving to Haiastan – not divisive – but joined together, ALL together,
awaiting all these years – joined with the Armenians of the diaspora – miaseen. Manooshag
It behooves me to add: DerBedrossian and all who have followed in leaderships of Haiastan are
interested in keeping the diasporans away… it suits their convoluted mindsets.
Our bretheren in our homeland shall remember the great difference of why and how our diasporans of Armenians – whole world over – were forced by Genocides to seek havens in other nations. Armenians fled for their lives… and formed “little Armenias” wherever and whenever they were able. Now today, nearly 100 years since the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation, menk miaseen enk, menk tehr Haiastan guh bashban-enk yev miaseen bedee mehr Haiastan-eh hachogh yev ahrsheni ennenk – MIASEEN!! Manooshag
P.S. Odars who fled from other nations (i.e. to USA) were not forced to leave their native lands via any Genocides… that is the difference! Turkish Genocides caused the Armenians to flee from our homeland. Survivors, now looking down upon us, our existence/unity- still. Manooshag
re: “…but posing a multiple choice question is somewhat condescending.”
Obviously it was not meant to be condescending: no offense was meant – heartfelt apologies cheerfully offered.
Based on your previous posts, and having gauged the level of your intellect, I guessed you (…and not many others) would get the meaning.
You have seen the posts: there is a lot of (understandable) emotion re LTP, ARF, RoA, and such.
If I had said it out straight, it would have certainly created more ‘emotion’.
One thing I absolutely seek to avoid on these threads is starting any kind of argument amongst us. I will confront Ittihadist Turks that post on these web sites with relish, know how to get under their skin, and will go the distance – until they give up. However, I’ll go out of my way to keep us united, as much as humanly possible.
You read the same posts I did/do on this thread: there are a lot infuriating things said (not by you,) – I try to convey my positions with as much tact as possible to convince others.
We often read our history and marvel, negatively, how the infighting amongst us allowed our weaker enemies to chomp away our lands.
We ask ourselves “How could our leaders/people be that stupid ?…” Well, we are living our history now: it starts with us….our current and future leaders are people from amongst us: they did not and do not descent from a spaceship. We all need to set an example for each other.
I have a question that you may help me resolve. Others who have a view are also encouraged to comment. First, let me establish my perspective which may account for why an issue that is so obvious to you is somewhat obscure to me. Similar to most people with Armenian background-I have genocide survivors in the family tree. In fact on one side-two generations. Der-el-Zor plays a prominent part of the family narrative. At this point in time so does Guadalcanal, Midway, Iwo, Indochina, and now Afghanistan. This leads to the fundamental difference in perspective–This family identifies unequivocally as Americans-albeit Americans with Armenian lineage. I want to more fully understand why individuals who think of themselves first as Armenian don’t return to Armenia. What convinces people whose reason d’tra is Armenia and what is broadly referred to as the Armenian cause to believe those ends are best served by living apart from Armenia.
Someone may wish to respond by denigrating or pejoratively labeling my perspective or the way I identify. That won’t be helpful. The assertion of why it is more of a service to Armenia to live outside of Armenia versus in Armenia would be more on target.
Avery —- Your point is well taken and your patriotic sentiments appreciated. Truly. What puzzles me, still, is since you realize “there is a lot of (understandable) emotion re: LTP, ARF, RoA, and such” on these pages, in the Republic, and the Diaspora, why would you step in a discussion with explicitly pro-LTP views? Why aggravate the situation knowingly? Doesn’t this “invite infighting amongst us” that you seem to denounce? Having gauged the level of your intellect I, in turn, hoped you’d understand that our leaders (so far) are not “people from amongst us.” Yes, they may have very common Armenian first and last names, have lived and worked in Armenia, some of them even displayed civil disobedience to the authorities on an Armenian issue, but, nonetheless, for some reasons they couldn’t keep their identity and resoluteness and, ultimately, most probably have sold their souls to the satan, namely: those sneaking intelligence agencies and sinister globalist societies. Technically, they are “people from amongst us,” but does their origin alone make them Armenians in a true sense of the word? Besides, Avery, did we elect them to be our leaders, in the first place? Really, who is it amongst our past or present leaders that we, as people, have elected? I have witness accounts that even LTP during the very first presidential election in early 1990s (generally viewed as Armenia’s first and last democratic election), was not actually elected by the people. Fake ballots from residents of several apartment buildings in Yerevan were stuffed in the ballot boxes to make LTP win. Vazgen Manoukian was widely believed to become Armenia’s first president. Some shadowy forces intervened at the last moment when it became clear to them that their selectee LTP was about to lose the elections. Mere ethnic affiliation doesn’t make our leaders “people from amongst us.” Your and my vote of confidence (not faked, not falsified) to them does. Their accountability to the people does. Their devotion to the betterment of Armenia and Armenians does.
re: “why would you step in a discussion with explicitly pro-LTP views? Why aggravate the situation knowingly? Doesn’t this “invite infighting amongst us” that you seem to denounce?”
I found Mr. Yegparian’s statements against LTP extremely unfair, unsubstantiated, and divisive – in view of the fact that Mr. Yegparian is not an ordinary poster, is not an ordinary ARF member, but is in its leadership. If an Armenian initiates divisiveness – as I see it – I will not remain on the sidelines, just because he/she is Armenian.
And no, I am neither pro- nor anti-LTP; neither pro- nor anti-ARF.
(I have numerous close ARF relatives, both by blood and by marriage)
Based on what I know, Pres. Levon Ter-Petrossian was a great 1st President of our 3rd Republic of Armenia.
I consider him akin to Winston Churchill when he led his nation of England during WW2: that’s my reasoned judgment.
I blame LTP for the events of 2008: not that he personally caused the violence, but that he did initiate and lead a mass demonstration.
He should have known that in the ensuing chaos, our enemies would emerge and attempt to damage the Republic.
He should have stayed a private citizen in 2008, and should have stayed a private citizen in 2011.
You can cite witnesses and documents; I can cite witnesses and documents – until the cows come home.
As before: we just have to agree to disagree.
And as to the phrase ‘step in’: I can step in and out of any discussion on these threads, like you or anybody else. Myself and all others post at the pleasure of ArmenianWeekly owners, management/moderators. If they don’t like a post, they edit it or flush it.
I applaud ArmenianWeekly for posting my comments critical of Mr. Yegparian.
My apologies, Avery, if you felt attacked by the phrase “step in.” I’m in no position to decide whether anyone’s comments should be posted in AW. The moderators are. I used it in conjunction with explicitly pro-LTP views in a situation that, in your own words, creates “a lot of (understandable) emotion.” As for Mr. Yegparian’s statements against LTP being “extremely unfair, unsubstantiated, and divisive”, that’s your personal opinion. Chronologically, may I remind you, it was LTP who initiated divisiveness—as many see it—by bashing ARF and other opposition forces or simply dissidents. Very many people in Armenia would disagree with your reasoned judgments re: LTP. Those people who lived in Armenia during his years and experienced his “Winston Churchill-like leadership” resulting in man-made blockade consequences, Bolshevik-style governance, mass emigration, and treasonous attempt on Artsakh resolution. But, like you said, you can cite witnesses and documents and I can cite mine. Moreover, I can also cite my own experience living in those years in Armenia. Nothing and no one will ever convince me in the opposite to what I’ve experienced firsthand.
Soghomon: Fair enough. All The Best.
– when the leaderships of our Haiastan is composed of patriots,
– when the leaders of Haiastan are not stealing from the citizenry of Haiastan (obviously filling their own pockets) ill prepared to lead our fledgling young nation,
– when such patriots are serving our Haiastan for their own love of our nation,
– when such patriots serve for their love of our citizens of Haiastan,
– when such patriots love of and recognition of the diasporans who from 2nd, 3rd, and now 4th generations been seeking AZAD ANGAGH HAIASTAN – and maintaining our Armenian identities in nations all across the world,
(Diasporans are lost to the ‘melting pots’ of the nations where they live).
– when PATRIOTS are the leaders of Haiastan – Haiastan will be worthy and deserving of patriots returning, even beginning with those now retired… more will follow,
– when Patriots form the honest governments of our Haiastan,
– in remembrance of the Survivors whose lives were shattered, yet believing that one day our Haiastan would be resurrected…
THEN more shall seek to live in our Haiastan – with patriots!! Manooshag
Thanks for letting me know why someone whose is strongly Armenian would not repatriate to Armenia. Is the perspective that Armenia must first become a country characterized by democratic governance and honest administration before good/patriotic Armenians return a broadly held view among diasporans? I would be interested in hearing from others–is Manooshag’s perspective representative? Let’s accept the view that some maybe even the majority of the political-economic-military leadership of Armenia is primarily driven by the desire to gain power and wealth. Further, lets presume honest Armenian patriots don’t repatriate from California or France etc. Then, I am left with the question just who will build this better Armenia?
Harb, obviously, leaderships of Haiastan to date have all been of the mentality of their experiences coming out of the the communistic ‘mentality’. (Take and keep for themselves – fill their own pockets – and to hell with ALL the citizens of Haiastan)!! Too, the input from the diasporans would bring to Haiastan enlightenments which they have learned and experienced – that which ALL the citizenry of Haiastan are worthy and deserving of learning, of knowing.
It is as if opening the windows and letting fresh and clean ideas enter. Our fledgling nation, rising from the horrors of Genocides, needs such leaders – PATRIOTS, as our history has shown we have had… and need today. Manooshag
Harb, seems to me you negate the ‘power and strengths’ that the diasporans have given in their support for our Haiastan… Honestly, than any of the so-called leaderships which Haiastan has had to date. I never knew any of my grandparents, my aunts, uncles, their children – in their memory I, and my family’s dedication and aspirations for Haiastan shall not be simplified… ignored… and certainly not belittled since my immigrant parents, mother and father pledged to each other (mother from an orphanage in Syria to my father in New Jersey)… whose children (5) and their grandchildren were educated to became lawyers and teachers!! This is how our family – and so many families with their same dedications to a resurrected Haiastan have been faithful and supportive of Haiastan today, historically, our 2nd, 3rd, and 4th generations , today for our Haiastan – needing such support (lacking WITHIN from dishonest leaders of Haiastan) but which continues from Haiastan’s diasporans – still. Honesty in government in Haiastan will lead many Armenians back to Haiastan. Too, you shall know that during the ‘communist’ period our bretheren had to bear in USSR there were many in diaspora which deemed that ‘condition’ best for our Armenians. When I visited Haiastan in those years, my first time, as we rode a sight seeing bus (locals were ‘allowed’ to use this bus too) and in no time at all… Tashnags and our Haisatansis were singing all our patriotic songs!
For perspective: are you of Armenian descent ? Anglo-Saxon ?….
What country are you living in now ?
I was born in Yerevan many moons ago, of Հայրենադարց parents.
I am now a U.S. citizen living in California.
I have blood relatives and close childhood friends currently living in Armenia.
the above should have said Avery.
Avery, the correct spelling in Eastern Armenian is հայրենադարձ not հայրենադարց. Just an “ethno-friendly” correction…
right you are Soghomon.
Yes, Armenian lineage on both sides. Yes, the USA is my country. At this point in time 5 generations in the US(includes 2 generations of genocide survivors plus 3 generations born here).