On Feb. 8, the International Crisis Group (ICG) published a policy briefing titled “Armenia and Azerbaijan: Preventing War.” It is basically an update from earlier ICG briefs that have intimidated untrained readers into concluding that war between Armenia and Azerbaijan is inevitable without an immediate final settlement. The ICG stated, on page 1, that the best settlement is to agree on the basic principles “first outlined by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in 2005.” The ICG states that the current status quo is not in the interest of Azerbaijan, yet on page 2 recommends that “Armenia and the de-facto Nagorno-Karabakh authorities should cease supporting activities that make the status quo more intolerable for Azerbaijan…” The ICG puts the burden of conflict settlement squarely on the shoulders of Armenians. This makes the ICG as partisan today as it was in 2007.
In November 2007, the ICG recommended in “Nagorno-Karabakh: Risking War” the “withdrawal of Armenian and Nagorno-Karabagh forces from all occupied territories adjacent to Karabagh, with special modalities for Kelbajar and Lachin,” adding, “The de facto Nagorno-Karabakh authorities should end support for settlement of occupied territories with Armenians” and “Azerbaijan should allow Karabakh Azeris to elect the head of their community and make a concerted effort to increase transparency and reduce corruption so that oil revenues are used to benefit all citizens, particularly internally displaced persons (IDPs)” (see pages i-ii).
On page 4 of the 2011 brief, the ICG claimed, “The Armenian front-line units that came under attack [June 18-19, 2010] reportedly ‘panicked’ and initially fled, producing some concern among military officials in Yerevan that their troops’ training and combat experience may not be as superior as often claimed.” This claim appeared odd; moreover, the reference provided looked bogus. The ICG needed to explain. Below is the email I sent to the ICG on Feb. 9, 2011.
***
Subject: Request for References: Europe Briefing N°60, 8 February 2011
From: “David Davidian” dbd@urartu.sdpa.org
Date: Wed, February 9, 2011 9:15 am
To: brussels@crisisgroup.org
Dear International Crisis Group,
I have two short informational questions regarding a report you published yesterday.
In report: Europe Briefing N°60, 8 February 2011, Armenia and Azerbaijan: Preventing War, you made a reference on page 4:
“The Armenian front-line units that came under attack reportedly ‘panicked’ and initially fled, producing some concern among military officials in Yerevan that their troops’ training and combat experience may not be as superior as often claimed.14“
and footnote 14 states: “14 Crisis Group interview, military analyst, Yerevan, November, 2010.”
However, I cannot find this reference on the ICG site after extensive searching. Can you provide a link to reference 14?
Also, you noted on page 1: “…the country’s [Azerbaijan] oil revenues are projected to decline after 2014.” Can you provide a reference for this claim as well.
Thank you for your time and effort,
David Davidian
***
There has been no response to this request. A reference for a 2014 oil declination claim on page 1 was used as a control case. Actually, this 2014 oil claim is made again later in the brief, and there it is referenced with footnote 98.
The ICG should provide clarity when using references in their policy briefs, considering they provided 152 of them in a 16-body page publication. A reference that cannot be located or clarified calls into doubt the author’s intent and questions the entire report. Even high school term papers are required to have verifiable references. It would be interesting to examine the entire ICG brief, but the effort would only reinforce the partisanship exhibited by the ICG.
The ICG is engaging in tactics generally associated with psychological warfare. The function of their latest brief is crafted to pressure Armenian and “de facto Nagorno-Karabakh authorities” to accept the deal proposed by mediators. The ICG’s analysis and recommendations are clearly not convincing at the expert level; however, the ICG’s target is really the unsuspecting general public.
Azerbaijani and Turkish English-language media apparently had no issues with the ICG 2011 brief, as they merely quoted directly from the ICG. See a sampling:
www.news.az/articles/politics/31052,
www.todayszaman.com/news-234804-armenia-and-azerbaijan-preventing-war.html, www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=icg-warns-of-war-risk-between-armenia-azerbaijan-2011-02-08.
In particular, note the article—apparently worthy of being published in the Turkish Sunday’s Zaman—by Sabine Freizer, the Europe program director at the ICG:
www.sundayszaman.com/sunday/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=234935.
David Davidian
Latest posts by David Davidian (see all)
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Such editorialisation of quotations and “references” is a hallmark of the writings of Lawrence Sheets, ICG Caucasus Program Director. This is consistent with Sheets’s problematic coverage of Armenia, when he used to work for Reuters, especially the 1998 elections, see this link http://groong.usc.edu/ro/ro-19980402.html .
Thanks to David Davidian. He is, of course, correct in his assessment that the ICG is engaged in psychological warfare against Armenians.
I have never had the slightest respect for the ICG. You know, if you have a high-sounding name like “International Crisis Group”, I guess we’re all supposed to be impressed.
Hugh Pope is in charge of ICG’s Turkey – Cyprus program, and it would not surprise me if he had a hand in the current report on Artsakh. He certainly had a hand a year or two back on the ICG “report” on Armenia and Turkey.
Pope is a huge Turkophile (author of the ridiculous “Sons of the Conquerors: The Rise of the Turkic World”) and other Turkish propaganda. His wife Nicole is co-author with him of yet another kissy-face book on Turkey: http://www.amazon.com/Turkey-Unveiled-Nicole-Pope/dp/1585675814.
If Turkey did not exist, you wonder what they’d do for work.
Nicole Pope also writes for Zaman. The last time I looked, they owned a vacation home in Turkey.
This tells us a bit about who the lackeys are that are writing ICG reports.
Look at the characters who direct the ICG (http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/about/board.aspx): Pickering, Abramowitz, Soros, and the Turkish industrialist, Sabanci.
Check out the governments (including Turkey), corporations, and others that contribute to (in other words, bribe) the ICG:
http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/support/who-supports.aspx
Carnegie Corporation, headed by – yes – Vartan Gregorian – also contributes to the ICG:
http://carnegie.org/about-us/presidents-corner/.
Nice, huh?
The aim of these nice-sounding organizations hoping to fool people that they are independent analyst, objective, non-governmental, humanitarian, etc., is to spread strategic-misrepresentations (i.e. lies) and mis-information (i.e. twisted facts or deliberate missing information), with the aim to crush Armenians and force Armenia to capitulate.
Beware of organizations such as the ICG, ICTJ, RFE/RL, IWPR, US State Department, organizations affiliated with the US State Department, British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) and British affiliated organizations, and many Armenian individuals and Armenian reporters engaged in their services.
Thanks to the article writer and the comments of David Boyajian and Berge Jololian, we understand how far the Turkish propaganda bribery machine has infiltrated into virtually all U.S. national and international “respectable” institutions, who have become the lackeys (well said David) of the Turcs. All the good things we have been hearing about Turkey for the past decade are empty noises, they are hoaxes, propagated by those lackeys, the greedy money-loving journalists, activists and politicians who are ready to sell their soul; but unfortunately they are infecting the National Institutions with incurable diseases thus, brain-washing only the few naive citizens; luckily the masses are not interested and the money spent by Turkey goes, with no result, into the pockets of the lackeys.The latest of these hoaxes, is the brou-ha-ha about how great the Turkish economy is, we could lately hear on NPR during Tom Ashbrooks’ On Point, where one of the guests, lackey of course, said that Turkey is the sixth largest economy; which meant that Turkey is somewhere between the U.K. and France; whereas economic figures show that, Turkey’s GDP per capita is below Greece’s GDP.
The reality, that the lackeys preciously hide from the public, is that Turkey is in a desperate psychological dilemna; Europe’s doors are definately slammed to their face, no nation likes them, they all know their devious criminal intents; Turkey’s nightmare, Armenia, which they thought they had wiped out 96 years ago and recently illegally territorially blockaded, is well and alive by their side, and growing territorially in size. These facts are turning Turkey very nervous and frustrated, and their mongol nature for appetite to conquer and rob other nations is making them behave neurotically.
Armenians are the worst enemies Turks can have. The dellusions you guys spew is ridiculous. “Armenia, which they thought they had wiped out 96 years ago and recently illegally territorially blockaded, is well and alive by their side, and growing territorially in size.” Get a reality check. How long will you be able to hold on to what you stole, when you population is the only one in our geographical proximity that is receding? And your vision is so blocked by hatred is that you do not see the fact that there is a one way immigration from Armenia to Turkey. Every year the number of Armenians who seek a better life in Turkey is increasing. Either illegally or by legal norms. And finally, 15 years. That is when Turkey is going to to be a member of the EU. And if not the EU another economic bloc. What is the future of Armenia? Do you think EU membership is possible as long as Armenia still occupies its neighbor? You are surrounded by two hostile countries, which one almost wiped you out 90 so years ago. If you continue this route of deluding yourself and hatred, war is imminent.
Ari,
Armenians didn’t steal anyone’s lands, they regained part of historic Armenia (Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh) that was transferred under Azerbaijani rule by Stalin’s unilateral decision in the 1920s. In contrast, Turks have, no doubt, stolen in 1915-1923 what was the Armenian homeland for several millennia.
Armenia’s population in our region is not the only one that is receding. After the demise of the Soviet Union emigration is typical to virtually every former Soviet republic, Georgia and Azerbaijan included.
Armenians do not emigrate to Turkey, some are foreign workers in the country, as well as other countries (Russia, Ukraine, UAE, European and Central Asian countries, etc.) Again, this situation is not typically Armenian, it’s universal. You conveniently forget about millions of Turkish workers who travel to foreign countries. In Germany they even became a large settled segment of the local population. Might you know why Turks are emigrating from a “piece of paradise” called Turkey?
And finally, it is already clear to everyone (apparently, Turks are lagging behind) that Turkey will never become a member of the EU. Do please leave the future of Armenia on Armenians and mind your own business: how come Turkey fervently wished to become an EU member while discriminating Kurds and occupying a sovereign UN nation-state of Cyprus?
Nothing can be more gruesome for Armenians that the genocide perpetrated by Ottoman Turks. Restoration of historical justice for this worst crime against humanity is not hatred, it’s what it is: a demand for justice.
To Ari.
1. “You are surrounded by two hostile countries, which one almost wiped you out 90 so years ago.” Your single sentence proves what your paragraph rejects! You do not think that future belong to people of this mentality?!
2. One-way migration of Armenians simply means that soon all the vitally important points of your countries prosperity will belong to Armenians. So, future of Turkey for Turks depends on strong Armenia for Armenians.
3. Think rather about Turkey serving both sides of any conflict. What is a proper word for that?
I would like to see Armenian organizations in the US and even around the world get together and condemn and expose the ICG, Armenia must do the same.
Why is the Carnegie Corporation, for example, run by Vartan Gregorian, funding the ICG? Can Gregorian point to something wonderful the ICG has done, or is this just another example of you scratch my back and I’ll scratch yours and we’ll all make a living off it?
You know who the Chairman of the Carnegie Corp. is? Tom Keane, formerly governor of NJ, and an OIL man. I recall his having deals with Azerbaijan some years back. He was also co-chair of the bogus 9/11 Commission with the Lee Hamilton, who just retired as head of the corrupt, pro-Turkish Woodrow Wilson Center. Also on the Carnegie Corp. Board is Tom Pickering of BOEING. Boeing has lobbied against the Armenian genocide resolution. Pickering is also an advisor to the ICG. So what we have is a bunch of bought-off oilmen and genocide deniers and, sadly, Vartan Gregorian is a member of that pack, and they all scratch each others’ backs. And whose money is it? Ultimately, it’s our money they play with.
As for the ICG, I might go so far as to hope that Armenia would take ICG personnel who are in Armenia or who might go there and put them on the next plane home.
There are ways to do all this. We don’t have to sit around take this sort of abuse from think tanks who pose as “objective” yet are anything but. The ICG has offices all over the world including NY and DC.
Thanks to David Davidian for drawing our attention to the ICG and to the Weekly.
As long as we remain passive, these groups – and there are lots of them as Mr. Jololian points out – all part of the pro-Turkish, pro-Azeri foreign policy establishment in the US and Europe – will continue to wage war, what David Davidian rightly calls psychological warfare, against us,
This is who the ICG is: http://www.crisisgroup.org/en/about.aspx
This is who the Carnegie Corporation is: http://carnegie.org/about-us/board-of-directors/
David Boyajian:
Great background info on ICG: one for the files.
Best way to expose the harmful machinations of these evil outfits is to shine a searchlight on them and expose who is supporting them from the shadows.
ICG, other policy institutes like Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, and many other political, commercial, academic, and financial institutions are cabals of those shadowy supragovernmental societies, collectively known as “internationalist power elites” whose goal is world domination. These sinister forces tend to rule the Earth forgetting that they are mere dust and that only omnipotent God in entitled to it: “Thy Will be Done on Earth, as it is in Heaven”…
Ari:
[1] re: “ …Get a reality check. How long will you be able to hold on to what you stole,…“
Read some history books other than Turkish mythology that’s fed to all schoolchildren in Turkey. Armenians are the indigenous population of Armenia, Artsakh, and Western Armenia: for 4,000-5,000 year. Turks/Tatars INVADED from the Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountain regions about 1,000 years ago. I know they teach you guys only Turkish math in high schools, but for the rest of the civilized world: (4,000-1,000)=3,000; you guys invaded and stole out lands.
[2] re: “.., when you population is the only one in our geographical proximity that is receding?…”
Right, continue rehashing information from 5 years ago.
And the fact that about 200,000 Artsakhtsi Armenians crushed a nation of 7,000,000 million Azeris and chased them out of our lands – way out – means what ?
BTW: you guys had sent hundreds of Grey Wolves and NATO trained Turk officers to assist your Azeri buddies: how did that work out ?
Artsakhtsi warriors liberated hundreds Wolves from their miserable existence on this Earth.
[3] re: “…. That is when Turkey is going to to be a member of the EU…”
Turkey is not becoming member of EU in 15 years or 150 years. They are not going to allow a Muslim nation – that is growing more militantly Islamic every year – to get into a Union of Christian nations. Read what Angela Merkel said about you Turks; look up what the Austrian MP said about you Turks; read what Sarkozy said about multiculturalism (…he meant Moslems in France). They hate and despise you Turks: they want you out, but can’t figure out a way to do it.
[4] re: “…And if not the EU another economic bloc…”
Which other economic block: please enlighten us.
[5] re: “…What is the future of Armenia? Do you think EU membership is possible as long as Armenia still occupies its neighbor?…”
Armenia’s future is very bright. Why would Armenia need EU membership ?
The made-up country of ‘Azerbaijan’ is still occupying Armenian lands, e.g. Nakhichevan; Turkey is still occupying Western Armenia and Cilicia.
[6] re: “…You are surrounded by two hostile countries, which one almost wiped you out 90 so years ago….”
Quite so, except you guys screwed up: almost is not good enough. Enough survived to regenerate into 12,000 Armenians worldwide. Each and every one of them now knows what and who Turks are. Not like in 1915 when they trusted you guys and allowed themselves to be disarmed.
[7] re: “…If you continue this route of deluding yourself and hatred, war is imminent….”
Really: and Ari, I am sure you will be commanding the first Turkish tank that will cross Armenia’s border – the one that will be incinerated, right ?
Or you will be flying in the first jet that will be shot down, right ?
These are the questions I will answer.
a. Turkey is not becoming member of EU in 15 years or 150 years. They are not going to allow a Muslim nation – that is growing more militantly Islamic every year – to get into a Union of Christian nations. Read what Angela Merkel said about you Turks; look up what the Austrian MP said about you Turks; read what Sarkozy said about multiculturalism (…he meant Moslems in France). They hate and despise you Turks: they want you out, but can’t figure out a way to do it.
b. Which other economic block: please enlighten us.
c. Armenia’s future is very bright. Why would Armenia need EU membership ?
The made-up country of ‘Azerbaijan’ is still occupying Armenian lands, e.g. Nakhichevan; Turkey is still occupying Western Armenia and Cilicia.
d. Really: and Ari, I am sure you will be commanding the first Turkish tank that will cross Armenia’s border – the one that will be incinerated, right ?
Or you will be flying in the first jet that will be shot down, right ?
e. And the fact that about 200,000 Artsakhtsi Armenians crushed a nation of 7,000,000 million Azeris and chased them out of our lands – way out – means what ?
BTW: you guys had sent hundreds of Grey Wolves and NATO trained Turk officers to assist your Azeri buddies: how did that work out ?
Artsakhtsi warriors liberated hundreds Wolves from their miserable existence on this Earth.
f. Right, continue rehashing information from 5 years ago.
And the fact that about 200,000 Artsakhtsi Armenians crushed a nation of 7,000,000 million Azeris and chased them out of our lands – way out – means what ?
a And b.
According to BRAD (Bit Rate Annual Doubling) the speed of the internet doubles every 12 months. That means in 15 years it will be 1015. Now take 2011 it causing revolutions throughout the Arab world, because people don’t want to live freely and openly and are willing to risk their lives for it. Now in 15 years when the internet is 215 times faster , that by the way means it will be half a billion times faster than it is today, the world will be even more globalized than it is today. That means cultures will resemble each other more, even if they are Christian, Jewish or Muslim. That will lead in the creation of more economic blocs like the EU and AU. And the creation of the Asian Union is very viable. So if the EU is closed another will open and I say will not might. How will the EU whose population is 400 mil and growing very slowly compete in a global arena with the Asian Union whose population will be more than 3 billion people? Who will become more and more educated, because in 30 years the internet will have been 230 times faster ( a billion times faster ) therefore education will even more easily accessible and people who were poor and had no access to education before will even have a greater chance of educating themselves and becoming middle class. So again EU membership, not that important. And to close this part off, the EU a 100 years ago were the colonizers of Africa. One EU country like Britain controlled half of the continent through its military might. Today not one EU country, separately or collectively, is capable of enforcing a no fly zone over Libya. The EU is stuck in the past, the world is changing that is why they EU membership isn’t a big deal.
c. Get a reality check. Armenia is the only one stating so. Not the EU, not the U.S. not China. Not anyone that matters. Every accepts those lands belong to Azeris.
And I do not know of any country that does not accept the validity of Turkish territorial integrity. So nothing to worry about on that front.
d. Not to Armenia. Why would anyone support war with Armenia? There is no reason for that. No oil, no economy or no natural resources. The war will be to liberate Nagorno-Karabakh and once it is liberated from the occupiers it will stop. No need to spill innocent blood.
e. Because of our assistance Nakhichevan is in Azeri control and not occupied.
f. I just read what I am stating a month ago. Armenia’s population keeps decreasing and there is STILL a huge migration from Armenia to Turkey. Once almost gone because of the genocide now the Armenian community of Turkey is growing. Which I think is a good thing, because providing a better life for people seeking to escape poverty is something every nation should support. And here is something from the IMF 2010 report on GDP per capita (PPP) available @: http://www.imf.org data and statistic section, world economic outlook section.
Armenia per capita GDP: 2,767 $
Turkey per capita GDP: 10,206 $
Poland per capita GDP: 11,521 $
But of course the figures are one year old and the IMF is infiltrated by Turks so the numbers must be hyped up. And the funniest thing is Turkey’s population is almost twice that of Poland and Armenia combined. And I really doubt that this website will let this be published, because you guys are on the losing team and you need all the propaganda you can muster to keep your morales high.
To clear a point I first wrote on word and then pasted it on the website and it didn’t paste properly so to clarify that my answers to a and b edited version. And again sorry for the mistake, English is my third language.
According to BRAD (Bit Rate Annual Doubling) the speed of the internet doubles every 12 months. That means in 15 years it will be 2 squared 15. Now take 2011, it is causing revolutions throughout the Arab world, because people want to live freely and openly and are willing to risk their lives for it. Now in 15 years when the internet will be 2 squared 15 meaning it will be half a billion times faster than it is today making the world even more globalized than it is today. That means cultures will resemble each other more, even if they are Christian, Jewish or Muslim. That will lead in the creation of more economic blocs like the EU and AU. And the creation of the Asian Union is very viable. So if the EU is closed another will open and I say will not might. How will the EU whose population is 400 mil and growing very slowly compete in a global arena with the Asian Union whose population will be more than 3 billion people? Who will become more and more educated, because in 30 years the internet will have been 2 squared 30 times faster ( a billion times faster ) therefore education will become even more easily accessible and people who were poor and had no access to education before will have a greater chance of educating themselves and becoming middle class. So again EU membership is not that important, because for it to compete economically it will have to join the billions club. The world is going to be more interconnected than ever before.
And to close this part off, the EU a 100 years ago were the colonizers of Africa. One EU country like Britain controlled half of the continent through its military might. Today not one EU country, separately or collectively, is capable of enforcing a no fly zone over Libya. The EU is stuck in the past, the world is changing that is why they EU membership isn’t a big deal.
To Ari
one important thing is missing in your “analysis”. same internet first of all and most of all will boil the “media soup” and bring to the surface bubble-thinkers full of ignorance and hatred.
what will you do with nakhichevan and karabakh? what you did to anatolya? destroy, erase and then destroy, erase again?
now your hope is to get educated. all the years of ottoman empire statehood lead you nowhere. the end of the empire demonstrated the darkest, the worst beast-nature of human being possible. genocide, your words are these “Once almost gone because of the genocide now the Armenian community of Turkey is growing.”
yes, it is clear that western civilization runs parallel to you, does not become part of a fabric of your existence. only colors it. you will easily wash it out when commanded. will be internet mighty to change these? a lot of fight with brothers ahead.
Ari,
Of all the rubbish you wrote, this caught my attention: “Once almost gone because of the genocide now the Armenian community of Turkey is growing.” Well, thanks, at least, for calling Turkish crime against the Armenian civilization by its name… And remember, there has been no such thing as “Armenian community” in Turkey. Armenians inhabited the lands on the Armenian Plateau (now eastern Turkey) from times immemorial. In other words, we were no “community” before Seljuk and Ottoman Turks invaded, colonized, and ultimately, as you correctly pointed out, perpetrated genocide against us. We were masters on those lands. Are Turks at all capable of understanding what other peoples say or you just harp on one string, regardless? Likewise with Artsakh and Nakhichevan. You say: “Armenia is the only one stating so. Everyone accepts those lands belong to Azeris.” Who everyone? How well do you know the topic? How well did you familiarize yourself with what politicians and historians stated with regard to great injustice when both historical Armenian provinces were transferred to a newly-cooked “nation” of Azerbaijan in the 1920s? If you ever tried to do any research by yourself, I challenge you to show me any country or a nation (except for the Azerbaijan province in Northern Iran from whom modern-day Azeris stole the name for their “nation”) that existed on the world map before 1918, i.e. when the Azerbaijani Democratic Republic was proclaimed? Go on, prove Armenians wrong… Where were the Azeris before 1918? As for Armenians being “on the losing team,” you, as a Turk, should be ashamed for stating this, because the whole civilized world knows that our losses were caused by your bloodthirsty barbarian grandparents. But guess what, we still exist, as we did for the past 4000+ years, and we gradually regain our lands because we believe in our Cause. This belief, and not the propaganda, keeps our morale high.
Ari:
Before I begin: you write quite well in English, it being your 3rd language.
Re: . “And I really doubt that this website will let this be published”
Well, maybe you should post an apology to ArmenianWeekly.
[8] re: BRAD, interconnected world, etc.
Not really sure what is being said here: people will definitely be better informed. However, I do not equate being better informed with being better educated. USA has about 80% Internet penetration rate, US Constitution expressly prohibits the Government from censoring anything, yet our people believe in stuff that I am embarrassed to mention here.
[9] re: “That means cultures will resemble each other more, even if they are Christian, Jewish or Muslim.”
Nope, they won’t: the opposite will occur: Turks have been living in Germany for something like 30 years. A very tiny percentage have been Germanized. Most live as Moslem Turks.
In fact, Erdogan recently advised Turks in Europe NOT to integrate or assimilate. For better or worse, religion – be it Christian, Moslem, or Jewish – has very deep roots in the psyche of people. Soviets tried to eradicate religion for 70 years, sometimes using very brutal methods. As soon as USSR collapsed, all religions started blooming again.
Kemal’s dream of a secular Turkey is slowly dissolving. Islam is re-asserting itself in Turkey: The secular Turkish military tried to remove AKP from power (Sledgehammer Security Operation Plan), but this time it didn’t work.
Islamists are so confident of their power base that they have arrested and will put on trial Turkish military men – something unheard of before.
[10] re: “One EU country like Britain controlled half of the continent through its military might. Today not one EU country, separately or collectively, is capable of enforcing a no fly zone over Libya.”
USA, an Anglo-Saxon country, has replaced Britain: USA, with 300 million people rules the World (not just half), militarily and economically.
Any one of the powerhouse European countries – e.g. Germany, France, Britain – is quite capable: they wisely don’t want to get involved. Why should they ?
11] re: “The EU is stuck in the past, the world is changing that is why they EU membership isn’t a big deal”
Is that why the allegedly ‘proud’ Turks are begging Europeans to let them in ? Europeans have been playing and humiliating Turkey along for 25 years, yet Turks are still asking Christian Europe let them in. If it’s no big deal, why doesn’t ‘proud’ Islamist Erdogan go on national TV and announce that Turkey is withdrawing its application to EU ?
Continued
[12] re; “. Not to Armenia.”
I take it then you’ll join another Grey Wolf pack in Baku to assist the ‘Azeri’ invaders, same as in early 1990s – the ones that are resting peacefully in Moslem Heaven, courtesy of Artsakh’s Armenian Warriors ?
[13] re: “Why would anyone support war with Armenia? There is no reason for that. No oil, no economy or no natural resources. The war will be to liberate Nagorno-Karabakh and once it is liberated from the occupiers it will stop”
Same reason as in 1993, when Turkey massed a whole Army on the border of Armenia, threatening to invade: to save their Azeri buddies from total defeat; to cut Armenia in half; to complete the centuries old Turkish dream of creating an unbroken Pan-Turanic chain. BTW: Russian General Staff faxed some pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (as they appeared in August 1945) to Ms. Tansu Çiller. Shortly thereafter, she wisely ordered the Turk troops back into their barracks.
[14] re: “. No need to spill innocent blood”
Is that why your Ottoman Turk ancestors murdered 2,000,000 Armenians ? because they were guilty of some crime ? including the children and babies ?
[15] re: “I just read what I am stating a month ago. Armenia’s population keeps decreasing and there is STILL a huge migration from Armenia to Turkey”
I am sure you read that. I also read lots of stuff, that I know not to be true. Just the same there is negligible migration from Armenia to Turkey. 80% of the emigration is to Russia. Rest to the West. Emigration out of Armenia in 2010 was 12,000 people – not exactly huge. Emigration is definitely a concern for RoA, but it will correct itself: part of the growing pains of a new republic. Out of Azerbaijan’s 8-9 million people, 3 million live outside of Azerbaijan, even though the country has enormous wealth. How do you explain that ?
[16] re; “the Armenian community of Turkey is growing. Which I think is a good thing”
You are right: it is a good thing. However, the increase is not due to immigration of Armenians; it is due to a new process – forcibly Islamized Armenians discovering their roots and converting back: a MIRACLE !
[17] re: .” because providing a better life for people seeking to escape poverty is something every nation should support.”
Yes, indeed. So now that Turkey is a prosperous paradise, millions of Turks living in Europe – who had previously escaped poverty in Turkey – will start coming back to Turkey, right ? Particularly since Europeans want them out.
Continued
[18] re: “But of course the figures are one year old and the IMF is infiltrated by Turks so the numbers must be hyped up”
Nope, the IMF is not Infiltrated by Turks – as far as I know. But your numbers are off.
Here are the GDP numbers as per CIA: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/
Poland: $18,800 (2010 est.)
Turkey: $12,300 (2010 est.)
Greece: $30,200 (2010 est.)
Bulgaria: $12,800 (2010 est.)
Armenia: $5,800 (2010 est.)
Azerbaijan: $11,000 (2010 est.)
Georgia: $4,800 (2010 est.)
Let’s look at those numbers:
Turkey has been basically at peace since 1920s; was not under a Communist economic system; has benefitted from massive investment from the wealthy (Christian) West, to the tune of US$ 100s of Billions over 60 years (since joining NATO); its military budget is paid for by the West, mainly US; the rich markets of the West are fully open to Turkey; Europeans, mainly Germans have placed entire German-design factories in Turkey, and on, and on, and on.
Greece was not in the Communist block either, yet they have 3 times the GDP of Turks – and you guys are boasting about your GDP ?
Bulgaria was in the Communist block, yet they have the same GDP as Turkey – and you guys are boasting about your GDP ?
Azerbaijan doesn’t count: all their GDP is in their oil; once it runs out in about 5 years – goodby Ilham.
Armenia was in the Communist block; experienced a devastating earthquake; had to divert attention from economic development to go on a war footing to prevent extermination of Artsakh’s Armenians; has to spend huge percentage of its budget to keep ‘Azeri’ warmongers from starting anything; has been blockaded by Azerbaijan and Turkey; has no reliable trade routes through Georgia; has only rudimentary trade routes though Iran at this time (more being built).
Considering all that, Armenia is doing fine: things will only get better.
END
Vahe, don’t worry I am not in the slighest bit offended, because if you as a people were able to comprehend or imagine the future, you would not be following the path you are right now. Just read the UNSC statements concerning Nagorno-Karabakh. All of them states Armenia is the occupier, what cave have you been hiding under? At least you are not delusional enough to see that Turkey’s GDP per capita is three times bigger than Armenians. So good luck with its future.
I really don’t see a reason to be ashamed. Clearly at the time the two people were unable to co-exit together and either the Turks were going to get rid of the Armenians or the Armenians were going to get rid of the Turks. This happened in the early 1900s, but look at what happened in the last decade of the 1900s. Armenians occupied an area of Azerbaijan and either killed the unlucky ones and deported the lucky ones who saved were able to escape with their lives. So I can live with having barbarian grand parents.
@ Lusik. If you want my personal opinion concerning Nagorno-Karabakh, I think Armenia’s should be allowed to keep it. For two reasons, one as compensation for what happened in 1915 and the more important reason being and I am not sure on this but the Armenian population is around 200,000 or something and they should not be forced to pack their bags and leave. In return Armenia should return the seven other regions that it occupied and allow Azerbaijan to have safe transit route to Nakhcivan. Other than that what good is it to have land if you are drowning under the economic blockade set by two of your neighbours and your population’s migration rate is higher than its birth rate. I am more than happy to accept my blame for what befell your grandparents, but Armenia must also fix its relations with Azerbaijan and then we can have real peace and cooperation. Otherwise, if the status –quo is to continue, when the international dynamics are right war is the best option, because no amount of diplomacy or talk is having an impact.
avary I can’t read anymore of your post, you are so delusional and blind. I can’t even bother to show you links, documents by UN agencies on the immigration of Armenia’s to Turkey. Believe what you believe, but the reality is there is a one way immigration to Turkey. I am not even going to bother answering the rest of your statememts.
Ari,
This will be my last post because it seems to me you have a serious reading comprehension problem. I responded not to the UNSC statements concerning Nagorno-Karabakh, which are politically motivated, but to your historically distortive statements that “these lands [Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh] belong to Azeris” and [Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh] is an “area of Azerbaijan.” I challenged you to show me any evidence if there ever was a country in history called “Azerbaijan” whose internationally recognized borders before 1920s included Artsakh and Nakhichevan. I now see that you failed to prove it. By the way, I don’t know what cave you’ve been hiding in, but in no UNSC resolutions concerning the situation in and around Nagorno-Karabakh will you find “Armenia” as occupier. Have you read the texts? All of them refer to “local Armenian forces”, not the Republic of Armenia. Can you make a distinction?
It’s too bad that you don’t see a reason to be ashamed that your nation has perpetrated genocides of several ancient peoples living in Asia Minor before the arrival of Seljuk and Ottoman Turks and that you can live realizing that your grandparents were involved in acts of barbarism against innocent human beings: mass murders, forced deportations, horrifying mutilations, indescribable tortures, public rapes, forced conversion to Islam, etc. This demonstrates that modern Turkey is still operating within the confines of Seljuk/Mongol mentality, not the civilized mentality which expects that murderer-nations repent and clean themselves from past crimes. The way Germans have done.
It’s also historically distortive to suggest that “at the time the two people were unable to co-exit and either the Turks were going to get rid of the Armenians or the Armenians were going to get rid of the Turks.” Rubbish! Armenians represented an oppressed, heavily taxed, unarmed, and impoverished millet in the Ottoman Empire. Whereas Turks, considering themselves a “dominant” nation, had all the tools of oppression under their fingertips: government, army, police, prisons, arms and weapons, foreign policy, state propaganda, etc. It’s a very cozy cave that your government has prepared for you to hide in to believe that Armenians were at all capable of getting rid of Turks even if they wished to (which is in and of itself another misconception).
Another sugar-coated, distortive statement is about “keeping Nagorno-Karabakh as compensation for what happened in 1915.” What an ignobility! These are two divergently different cases. Artsakh was a war of liberation, and “what happened in 1915” was a genocide as a result of which 2 mln people were murdered and deported and two-thirds of historic Armenian lands stolen and incorporated into the Republic of Turkey. You dare to offer us “compensation” in the form of a land that lies beyond modern Turkey’s borders? You know, when someone thinks of others as gooseys, it can only mean that he himself is one…
On the last note. Armenia’s relations with Turkey are one thing. Armenia’s relations with all third countries, including Azerbaijan, are another thing. You speak for your country, your guilt, your crimes, your unrepentance, your denialism, while we’ll figure out how to conduct relations with all other countries, OK?
Ari,you present things from a very skewed perspective. Do you read publications other than those prepared and released by pro-Turkish outfits?
I appreciate your concessions regarding NK and also your willingness to acknowledge the crime of you forefathers. However, from an historical perspective you are being a bit narrow. Azerbaijan was a made-up nation created by a now defunct nation and has existed for merely a blip in time. Its borders were artificially drawn across traditional Armenian territory and intended to act as buffer zones between enemies that became “strange-bed-fellows” (USSR, Turkey, and Iran). Armenians want to correct the injustice of these actions which wrongfully usurped their traditional homeland and assert their right to self-determination and self-preservation against the Azeri aggressors. These are justifiable goals in the court of public opinion.
Ari:
re; “avary I can’t read anymore of your post, you are so delusional and blind.”
Very civilized of you to resort to a personal insult: why am I not surprised, after all you are a Turk.
re: “am not even going to bother answering the rest of your statememts.”
Of course not: when faced with facts and logical arguments most Turks become hysterical and delusional.
Ari, for all the truths, Abrees. Manooshag
Hye, appears the Turk leaderships have moved into all the various facets of the USA
government, corporations and more… legally? illegally? Who grants Turkey the right to implode into the republic of the United States of America? And of course, the desecration of the Woodrow Wilson memorial foundation, attached by the Turks, is a prime example. Manooshag
P.S. of course, the question is why is Sibel Edmonds still “gagged”… for she first gave evidences of all anti-American actions of the Turkeys in our own government offices!! Manooshag
Does the USA , or for that matter, is any nation allowed to “intrude” into the workings of the government and corporations of a Turkey?? Manooshag
Appears many such organizations/corporations therefore, have been actively involved, and thus supportive in allowing all ongoing Genocides of innocents and with a turkey’s pursuit of Genocides. Hence, the cycle of Genocides has many more facets… and the histories of the ‘civilized’ nations of the world shall continue to the pursuit of the cancer of Genocides of innocents into 2011… and more. Sadly.
Manooshag
Just for the record: It had been over a month and a half and still no response from the ICG.
-David Davidian
http://www.regionalkinetics.com
Dear Mr. Davidian
I by chance came across this writing of yours on the Internet. Though you state that you tried to contact ICG with your questions, I never received any communication from you, although my email address, and telephone contacts, are freely available through our ICG offices in Brussels, on our website, through Armenian government officials, and our representative in Armenia. Since you personally employ my name in your blog post, I ask you to please contact me at once on +995 599 39 62 61 or+1 517 639 0012 .
Also, please forward your stated email communications with ICG on this matter with date stamps and email origins.
Best regards
Lawrence Scott Sheets
Caucasus Project Director
International Crisis Group
—
Lawrence Scott Sheets
Caucasus Project Director
International Crisis Group
+995 599 39 62 61
+1 517 639 0012
+1 646 573 4529 (Until 12 September, 2011)
Mr Sheets,
As I just wrote to you privately:
As I recall I could not find your email address at that time — anywhere. I was not about to start calling the ICG. What remained was to respond to the Brussels email address on the report in question. You can find that email attached. It appears your Brussels office was remiss in their responsibilities to you in forwarding email.
The email in my above article IS the email I sent to your Brussels address. Below is that same email’s full transcript header in case your IT department wishes to trace its path.
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