Ever since the genocide, after nearly a century of banning Armenian church services, the Turkish government has finally decided to allow a one-time celebration of Mass to be held at the 10th-century Holy Cross Church on Akhtamar Island.
Questions have been raised about the prudence of attending the Sept. 19 church services to which the Turkish government has invited Armenians from around the world, members of the international media, and foreign ambassadors and dignitaries. Those calling for a boycott indicate that the true aim of the Turkish authorities is to score propaganda points with the European Union and the United States, by feigning tolerance towards Christians and other minorities. In reality, successive Turkish governments have carried out a systematic policy of eliminating all visible signs of Armenian presence throughout Western Armenia (Eastern Turkey) for over nine decades, during which more than 2,000 Armenian churches and monasteries have been destroyed or converted into non-religious use. The Holy Cross Church itself was targeted for demolition some years ago, but was saved by the intervention of a local Turkish official.
Critics of those traveling to Akhtamar also object to the Turkish government’s classification of the historic church as a “museum,” and holding services only once a year. After many requests and complaints, Turkish officials have finally promised to place a cross on the church’s dome.
There is no reason for Armenians to be grateful to a country that, after confiscating and destroying thousands of churches, is now allowing a religious ceremony in a single church, which it classifies as a museum. This church and thousands of others should belong to the Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul, and services should be held as needed, without governmental permission or interference.
Last week, tempers flared in Armenia when the Holy See of Etchmiadzin announced its intention to send two clergymen to the Sept. 19 ceremonies. His Holiness Catholicos Karekin II usually consults with Armenian officials before taking decisions on matters involving foreign countries. Since he was absent from Armenia while this announcement was made and possibly unaware of the objections raised, His Holiness now has the opportunity to make a final determination regarding the sending of representatives of the Holy See to Akhtamar. As Armenians in Turkey are not permitted to freely express their views, church officials and lay leaders outside Turkey should take the initiative to condemn the Turkish exploitation of Armenian religious ceremonies.
The Foreign Ministry of Armenia announced that it has not received an official invitation from Ankara to send a delegation to the Holy Cross Church. It is hoped that if and when such an invitation is extended, the Armenian government would reject it. Yerevan handed the Turks a propaganda victory last year by signing the Armenia-Turkey protocols. Participating in the Akhtamar church services would be tantamount to presenting the Turks an undeserved additional reward.
There are indications, however, that this time around the Armenian government may not be as accommodating. Eduard Sharmazanov, spokesman of President Serge Sarkisian’s ruling Republican Party and Member of Parliament, harshly criticized the planned church services, calling it a “publicity stunt” and a “provocation” to mislead the international community.
In addition, a subcommittee of the Public Council, an advisory body formed by Sarkisian, issued a statement urging Armenians to boycott the Holy Cross church services. It called on all self-respecting Armenians to refrain from participating in “this cheap Turkish show.” Giro Manoyan, spokesman of the opposition Armenian Revolutionary Federation in Yerevan, also advocated boycotting the church services and criticized the Holy See of Etchmiadzin for planning to send two clerics to Akhtamar.
A clear indication of Turkish disinterest in preserving Armenian churches is the interrogation by the secret police of several thousand families who have offered to host Armenian visitors in the nearby city of Van on Sept. 19, due to a shortage of hotel rooms. Turkish officials are suspicious that host families may be forcefully Turkified or Kurdified remnants of Armenian Genocide victims. By this appalling action, reminiscent of Nazi Germany’s Gestapo tactics, the Turkish regime is showing its obsession to keep track of its citizens’ ethnic origin. In fact, after this racist investigation, a number of families have been officially banned from hosting Diaspora Armenians in Van.
Armenians who naively plan to attend religious ceremonies in “a museum” would inadvertently legitimize the confiscation of a historic Armenian Church and promote a political show staged by Turkish authorities.
It is perfectly understandable that Turkish leaders would want to create a positive image in order to facilitate their country’s entry into the European Union, and counter Armenian efforts for the international recognition of the Armenian Genocide. It is far less understandable, however, why Armenians would help advance the Turks’ anti-Armenian objectives.
Harut Sassounian
How many times are we Armenians going to endorse deliberate propaganda ploys aimed at countering the efforts of our own cause?
Newsflash: This cheap publicity stunt seeks to bait as wide a net of suckers as possible in order to support Turkey’s active efforts of trying to brandish themselves as something their clearly not.
Mark my words. The next letter sent by the Turkish Coalition in America to our friends in congress and the senate, against any Armenian endorsed Genocide Resolution will not only discuss the defeatist protocols but also highlight this Akhtamar stunt as a reason why a Genocide Resolution should not be passed. Its going to happen and each of you politically astute Armenians reading this knows it well.
In other words, we can choose to be the cause of our own demise by deciding to participate in this Akhtamar fiasco OR this time we can choose NOT to hand Turkey yet ANOTHER effortless victory on a golden platter on our tab.
Any FOOL who thinks this MAJOR News Story (and it will be, get ready for it…) will not be splashed across the pages of every major newspaper with talk of reconciliation has not read enough or been alive long enough to understand Turkey’s influence in the media and their ability to spin stories in their favor. If you are naive enough to think that this story is not being “advertised” or “pushed” to several different media outlets by Turkish groups in America as I type…you are dead wrong.
Its PR stunts like this that Turkish lobbyists thrive on. Our stamp of approval with our participation only helps their cause at the expense of ours. So if you feel like giving Turkey another pat on the back for denying us justice, our property and our legal rights 95 years after murdering our ancestors then enjoy your trip to Turkey!
The Turk waits behind the door with his knife, believe you me my Armenian brothers.
“When the Turk calls for peace, the man knows it’s time to kiss his wife goodbye and prepare for war”
Greek proverb
Thank you, Harut, I was not aware of the interrogation by the turkish secret police. Thank you Dikranagertzi for your right-on comments. Let us continue to encourage those who have naively fallen into the Turkish trap and signed up to go, to cancel and go another time of their own choosing, perhaps to another church. What makes them think that they will even get inside Holy Cross? It is a very small church. Most of them will end up standing outside, perhaps in September rain, listening to the shortened service on loudspeakers. They will then stand in line-ups in order to pay for the hole in the ground toilet. They will then pay an exorbitant boat fare to get back to the shore in order to sleep in a turk’s house and eat at a turk’s table. And for those who do get inside – an important, still unanswered question – will the large photo of Ataturk be taken down or will you have to bend your knee in its presence? How will you feel when you get home and find the turks have not stopped rubbing their hands in glee?
Couldn’t agree more with what you said. This is a deliberate propaganda campaign by the Turkish authorities.
This really is an easy decision to make. I can hardly believe its even an issue worth discussing within our community. After what our people have experienced first hand over the last 90 years and even within this last year with the protocols, no Armenian with any semblance of dignity would step foot into this trap.
I’m sure the likes of karekin and his subservient flock of defeatist gentiles will soon be up in arms in defense of this not so veiled attempt at so called olive branch diplomacy…
LOL! Give it a rest karekin. The Turkish embassy should have replaced you a while back.
The whole thing is a dog and pony show for the Turkish regime. Had they even been remotely magnanimous they would just open the church to be used for worship full stop without any fanfare. It is actually more of an insult if anything. I realize that some of canaries in a cage (Armenians in Turkey) will be coerced or tricked into going, but the Catholicos should not send anyone from Etchmiadzin in protest. To have the church opened for one single day for mass and the remainder as a museum with a Turkish flag atop is an indication of how little the Turks have/or will change.
I respect everyones opinion and respect their choices. I have serious qualms about not attending. Like in a chess game, what then next? Will the Turkish authorities say than, for lack of interest by the Armenians, we will hand it over to the local religious authorities, who will dispose of it at their pleasure. I think that we should hold on to every gain, every inch, every hand-hold. Next, we should find a way to finance a few armenian families from Turkey to move around the complex. Perhaps like a kibutz. Anything, even if it turns out to be wrong. Anything !
It is just sand.. absolutely heartbreaking that Turkish govt is using such matters to gain brownie points… they use every manipulative way to show their willingness to be brotherly with their neighbors…like how they demonstrated when they allowed Greeks to conduct their mass recently in their own cathedral after 88 years… just like the Armenians, the Greeks also got only ONE DAY out of the year to pray and worship in their catherdral..what a joke… by doing this, i see no advancement in Turkish Govt actions.. they are still telling us and the Greeks that they are the boss, that Turkey is their land and they will dictate the terms..
I say… Hell with them.. if they want to play dirty, well hopefully only handful will show up at the Holly Church’s grounds…
Another thing we can do is this: if Turkey is soooooo open to change and soooooo eager to become civilized, then she should not have a problem if people decide to go to church every week, every month, every year instead of once a year.. If they get stopped, or harrassed or bullied or thrown in the jail for not listening to the Turkish rules, then the media should capture all that and blast it all over the world to show how fake and ugly Turkey truely is..
Until then, I do not and will not be part of this dark and ugly show… let Turkish govt tap on her shoulder for the job well done.. but the world will know how the job was done: under false pretense and for manipulative and evil reasons…
Gayane
Well said Harut. I echo your sentiments and wouldn’t be caught dead at this venue. For those willing to go, you might as well save yourself the hassle and just make a $10,000 donation to your local Turkish American Association chapter.
Hye, as the Muslim Turk chose to convert Holy Cross Church at Aghtamar into a Turkish museum, too, Turkish mosques the world over can be diverted too, in many of these nations in this same method – as each nation chooses. Muslims have not the rights, nor are Muslims worthy of choosing what shall become of the histories of any ancient cultures, ancient structures, ancient histories of any advanced peoples of our world.
Today, in New York City where Muslim’s seek to build their mosque near to September 11th site has not any meaning for a Turkey – they have not any comprehension of what that area of Muslim destruction holds for the families and the citizens of the USA – the loss of nearly 3,000 innocents murdered by the planned treachery of the Muslims. An IN YOUR FACE AMERICA from a Turkey!
Truth: Turkey seeks to re-gain their Ottoman empire – proud of their Ottoman past. Brave Turks who murdered and worse the unarmed – bravely!
Truth: The leaders who planned the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians are revered in a Turkey – even today, unbelivable, as ‘heroes’ of the Turkish nation… ‘Heroes’ who perpetrated the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation – bravely. Yet, a Turkey denies that there has been a Turkish Genocide of the Armenians (Turks declare Muslims do not commit Genocides) but these ‘heroes’ planned and perpetrated the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation! Bravely – without any war – just via Genocides murders and worse, stole a nation (1890s-2010). But a Turkey has never committed the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation… recognized the world over… but the Turk just refuses to admit – but will choose to make this Armenian church an issue. Turks say IN YOUR FACE ARMENIA your holy church is now a museum of the Turks… the non-Genocided Holy Martyrs Church of Aghtamar – which you may only use one day each year ONLY. Manooshag
It looks like I will stand alone on this post. Harut, I look forward to your commentary and respect your insight, but on this one I will disagree. I am not a Turkish apologist..nor am I an advocate of compromising in the name of pseudo-reconciliaton.
I simply believe that when you overtly boycott, your take away your voice. Several weeks ago, Harut wrote a column outlining a series of demands that the Armenians should put forth as it relates to the Holy Cross church…. re-consecration, under the jurisdiction of the patriarchate and open always not just when the Turkish government allows. I feel that this is a sound strategy,but we need to be present to articulate it. Are we so insecure that we feel that only in our absence can we not lose? The faces of the descendants of the gencide should stand tall on September 19, proudly confront the Turks and proclaim”we are here in western Armenia”; while we praise God.
I have been listening to many of you voice concern over the Turks gaining financially over this event through tourism. Are you saying tha no Armenians should go to any part of Turkey, be it historic Armenia or western Turkey for fear that some Turks is financially benefitting from this visit. How silly! Look, we don’t live there. Are we to forget our past and as a result have no hope for the future. How do you expect young Armenians to have any type of relationship with the concept of Turkish Armenia if we don’t encourage visits.
Instead of venting our tired anger about the Turks(look we all have it, but our cause has to be more than that), can’t WE VIEW THIS as an opportunity for more of our people to connect with western Armenia and to PRAY TO OUR LORD IN A MOST HOLY PLACE. Many of you have said to pray at Akhtamar is okay, but not on a day that the Turks dictate. Fine. Some of you sincerely have a problem being told to pray on that day. I respect that. But let’s be honest, opposition to this is also an easy out.
TO ME THE FUNDAMENTAL QUESTION IS WHETHER WE WILL EVER GET OVER LETTING ANGER GUIDE US TO SEE AN OPPORTUNITY WHERE TODAY ALL WE SEE IS A PROBLEM. HAVE WE BECOME SO FRUSTRATED BY OUR CURRENT STATE THAT WE HAVE LOST FAITH AND NOW ONLY SEE DARKNESS. WE KNOW THE TURKISH GOVERNMENT’S INTENTIONS ARE NOT PURE. THE QUESTION IS WHETTHER WE HAVE THE WILL TO DRIVE OUR AGENDA. I, FOR ONE, AM TIRED OF THE LOW RISK , STANDARD APPROACH OF OUR COMMUNITY. HARUT, I CONSIDER YOU TO BE ONE OF THE BRIGHTEST MINDS IN OUR COMMUNITY, BUT ON THIS ONE I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE.
I find myself in agreement with Stepan again especially the notion that boycotting is nullifying our voice in the event. You do not stand alone, Stepan.
I also agree with Stepan. Whatever the underlying motivation of Turks, I don’t think we are gaining anything by boycotting this event. Absence of Armenians can be interpreted and presented as indifference from our part.
I wonder why most people outside the Middle East are negative to a church ceremony in Aghtamar. Why would you consider only a Turkish propaganda and not an Armenian propaganda in the sense that Armenian are attached to their values, civilization, to their churches even if destoyed, occupied and Islamized. Why don’t we use this occasion for an Armenian propaganda. Can we? Do we? Shall we? What happened to Armenian churches and the clergy during the 70 years of communist regime? Here is a chance for the Armenians in the world to attend a church ceremony. on our land which we say it is occupied. We have many problems with the Turks (the new Ottoman generation) we should solve them face to face and one by one and with time ; aren’t we, Armenians in the Diaspora descendents of Ottoman citizens? Afterall, they are geographic neighbours.
I’m sorry but there is a major flaw in the argument of those advocating to attend this glaringly obvious public relations show put forth by the Turkish government. Some of you like Stepan base your fallacious defense of this ploy with the false premise, that “when you overtly boycott, you take away your voice.”
In arguing from this vantage point, people erroneously assume that Armenians living in Turkey are not restricted in their freedoms to date and can say and do what they want without worrying about being brought under litigation or even being gunned down in public for expressing themselves. This is complete hogwash I’m sorry to say and most well informed observers can attest to the fact that Armenians living in Turkey do NOT share the same freedoms as other Turks. Canaries living in a cage is the right analogy, unfortunately. Basically, Armenians living in Turkey don’t have the unadulterated voice you think we would loose if we did boycott this ploy. It doesn’t exist. This is why our struggle continues. Armenians are treated as second class citizens in Turkey. Their voices continue to be taken away and are currently nullified with or without a boycott in September. Article 301, the murder of Hrant Dink and the continued prosecution of anyone who speaks about the Armenian Genocide attests to this fact.
IF Armenians in Turkey were living on equal footing with the rest of Turks in society,
and we were not still considered ‘infidels’ by the majority of Turks,
and the Turkish government had atoned with their barbaric past,
THEN I could understand how this small step to reconcile its relations with Armenians would help showcase Armenian culture and civilization to the world and not further add insult to murder.
However, when the Turkish government is trying to hurdle these necessary steps by replacing them with insincere gestures to masquerade on the international scene as ‘tolerant Turkey’ then our involvement in this charade does more harm than good to our noble cause and sends a contradictory message to world leaders about our resolute pursuit of truth and justice.
OHhhhhhhhhhhh ppppppppppaaaaaaaaalllllleeeeaaaseeeeeee!
“when you overtly boycott you take away your voice”…? In Turkey? Really???? Regarding Armenians? They have a voice like other Turks? This is news. I almost fell off my chair in jubilant laughter…
What “voice” are you referring to Stepan?
The one muzzled by the turkish authorities on an hourly basis by the likes of good for nothing zealots like Robert, Murat and the other stooge that entertain us every week on this site?
Any other lame excuse for going I could have stomached I guess, but the “take away your voice” bit really is out there…
I think the issue is different from what some introduce here. To my mind, it’s not about attending/not attending the mass on Akhtamar per se, but whether it’s wise to attend the mass on Turkish terms, i.e. for one day, to a particular church, and providing money flow for a one-day tourism to the Turkish state. Let’s put the propaganda issue aside for a moment: it’s clear to almost everyone here that the Turks will try to portray themselves as “religiously tolerant” to the world and, in all probability, the world mass media outlets will pick this cheap Turkish crumb. I just don’t believe that any news agency would go as far as to explain to the readers or listeners as to why the 10th-century Armenian church was transformed into a museum, who were the parishioners, what happened to worshippers, who lived in the vicinity of the church or, broadly, in the Van province, and, most unlikely, why and as a result of what crime on the part of the Turks the church stood idle for 95 years. I have two major reservations, and Bouldoukian, it doesn’t matter whether they are “people outside the Middle East” or anywhere else where there are Armenian communities. I myself am an Armenian from the Republic of Armenia and this is, perhaps, the only instance when I’d support otherwise unpopular president Serge Sarkissian: Armenians anticipate substantial steps (establishment of diplomatic relations, opening of the borders, border trade, decoupling of Turkish-Armenian relations from an unrelated issue of Artsakh, discontinuation of the state denialist policy for the Armenian genocide, discontinuation of distortion of history, etc.) towards repentance by the Turks, not masquerades that’d profit the Turks’ image-building and not the reconciliation process in general.
Bravo, Zohrab. This was the most compelling argument against partakin in the Turkish masquerade. Well put!
So, are you suggesting that the Armenians who attend church at the Patriarchate in Istanbul or any of the 29 other churches in the city also partaking in ‘propaganda’? Should they all boycott all the Armenian churches in Turkey? What planet are you living on? This would serve no one at all…least of all, Armenians.
Those of you who still want to go should ask yourselves if you are willing to honour the name of Ataturk by bending your knee in the presence of his image hanging in our cathedral which has become a turk museum. Are you willing to support what has become a re-run of the Ottoman legacy with your money and your presence? Why are you willing to accept the invitation of a butcher by presenting Armenians to the world as lambs knowingly going to a turkish shish-kebob?
The following excerpt has the byline Istanbul and was sent to me today by Groong.
Today, the legacy of the Ottomans is enjoying a makeover.
Today, Ataturk’s image adorns state offices, shops and many private homes. Roads and sports stadiums bear his name. A huge mausoleum in the capital, Ankara, harbors his remains, and most visiting foreign dignitaries are expected to pay tribute. It is a crime in Turkey to insult the memory of Ataturk, whose name means “father of the Turks.”
Dear Gordon P. and Zohrab. To clarify based on your comments. The voice I am refering is the voice of the Armenian nation, the voice of our martyred ancestors, the voice of the diaspora and the voice of our future generations. I understand and respect the shameful limitations on our breathren in Turkey. All the more reason for the Armenians of the diaspora outside of Turkey to “carry the ball” and make our presence felt.
I must admit that I am a bit saddened by the fact that almost all the comments reflect little enthusuam for the spiritual emotion I feel this event represents. I couls care less about the Turks motivation. Someone earleir said, you can go any time ; just not on September 19. The badarak being celebrated is the difference. perhaps this is onme of the effects of assimilation or the hardened impact of decades of frustration, but for our ancestors , this is a holy place. Let US honor that.
That being said, let us all remember that we are all brothers and sisters of the Armenian nation united in our common commitment. Gordon P. and Zohrab, we may not agree, but I respect you because you care. Boyajian and Gina, thank you.
I agree with Stepan as well. Yes, the fact that there was a genocide and that Armenians no longer occupy these lands will undoubtedly come up as Diaspora Armenians visit and give interviews to press. This is exactly what happened in Trabizond last weekend. Pontian Greeks were looking for their grandparents’ homes, grandparents who had to flee the Genocide. And the whole world press carried their stories, including the Turkish press. Slowly, the Turks are learning that they have many skeletons in the closet.
Additionaly, I would like to mention that September 19 was not an arbitrary day the Turks decided. The mass was supposed to take place on September 12th, the date of “Don Veratztman Sourp Khatchi” in the Armenian calender. The day pilgrimages used to take place at Sourp Khatch church on Aktamar before 1915. However, the date was postponed due to the conflict with the constitutional referandum in Turkey. It might have been wiser to allow advance voting for the pilgrims and keep the date, but who knows? Maybe security could not be guaranteed on the 12th or the Patriarch staff didn’t think of advanced polling.
I am not suggesting we be happy with the crumbs Turks throw at us, but let’s take advantage of every chance we get to promote our cause. This is one such occassions Armenians should not miss!
Church and the Patriarchate in Istanbul or any of the other churches in the city have been functional because Armenians of Constantinople (not to count 250 beheaded intellectuals) were purposefully left largely unharmed to blow dust to the eyes of foreign embassies and representations whereas Armenians in the six Armenian vilayets and Cilicia were being slaughtered en masse and forcibly deported to meet their deaths in Syrian deserts. These have been functional churches and one needs to have enough intellectual prowess to distinguish them from a church which along with thousands of others stood idle for 95 years. Its renovation and invitation to partake in a one-day mass is “propaganda.” If other churches in Western Armenia would be allowed to have a one-day mass this would also be “propaganda,” because in a society that considers itself “civilized,” “religiously tolerant,” “genuinely secular,” and “compassionately caring” for the lives of millions of ancient peoples inhabiting Asia Minor, churches should not have been detonated, intentionally destroyed, transformed to mosques, sheepyards, or transformed to museums. Ask your beloved Turks: can mosques operate once a year and tell us what they’d tell you. We’re living on a part of the planet that’s seen Turkish sword, fire, and insolence: border to border, land to land, people to people.
Whoever wants to go and visit Armenian churches in Western Armenia, go. Whoever wants to pray in the Armenian churches in Western Armenia, pray, but not on a day designated by “their majesties” the savage Turks in our own church and not as part of image-building effort that’d benefit the Turks and Turks only.
Altough I am getting sick to the stomach by this latest stunt by the Turks to kiss up to the EU, ie: by renovating an Armenian Church to show that they have sensibilities towards old monuments, while keeping the church to themselves as a museum to generate more Tourism income for their country by none other than the Armenians from whom the church was stolen in the first place, I think we should all step back, take a deep breath and think about how we will respond.
A response such as a boycott which would be the “decent and respectable” thing to do by turning down an invitation to see “our property” by a victimizer who took it away, not only still keeps it but plans on making money off of the viewing of this stolen property, will unfortunately only translate into a Negative response within the international media whose attention span will not allow it to delve into the reasons behind such a stance, and Turkey will win this propaganda round. The Boycott will only be effective if we work hard and invest money in having it highly exposed and publicized in the media. It will not serve its purpose if it stays within our community. I am talking about major news coverage on international news stations delving into the history of the 10th Century church which was taken away by Genocide and is now the property of the 90 year old Turkish Republic… it should cover the outrage within the Armenian communities and splash interviews with Armenian individuals about how them feel about this… The Boycott will only be effective if it is vocal enough to overshadow the grand opening/the one day pilgrimage to Holy Cross Church.
If we do not have the funds/resources that will allow us exposure in the media to rival the media exposure that the Turks will have for the renovation of the church, the other option would be something along the lines of what Stepan suggested. We should invite the international media to the Holy Cross church to report our reactions there. We can even make symbolic statements by for example asking all the attendees to wear Black and be very articulate about why they feel that the renovation of the church by Turkey was a step in the right direction and yet so far from the “right thing to do” which would be returning the church to its rightful owner, the Armenian people. Why can’t we learn from the Jews and become more expressive by articulating with tears and outrage on national TV in front of the church, about what a confusing situation this is, where the country that ruined thousands of our churches decided to do the right thing and renovate this particular church which has fallen into disrepair because it was taken away from its owners by the same government. How hurtful it is for us that the church was renovated without the consultation of our experts and the Turks had decided not to put a cross on it.
We have to learn to start doing the unexpected in a world where decency has become boring and ineffective. A “No Show” which stays UNEXPLAINED will be a great opportunity lost for us. It will also leave the spotlight on an unchallenged “good deed” by the Turks.
Ani, just how can you be sure that “the fact that there was genocide and that Armenians no longer occupy these lands will undoubtedly come up”? Look at the media coverage of the Pontian Church mass: no single word on the genocide of the Greeks or the fate of their civilizational heritage in Asia Minor. How do you know that the Diaspora Armenians will be required to give interviews to press? Even if they are, how can you be sure that mentioning of the genocide of the Armenians and Turkish policies at transforming Christian religious sites into museums, mosques, and sheepfolds will take place in them? Again, read how the world media covered the Pontian Church mass: there’s virtually nothing except for praise for “societal and cultural transformation” of the Turks. Why do we, Armenians, need to repeat the same mistakes over and over again when dealing with sly and uncompassionate Turks?
Katia K., I tend to believe that even if we invite international media to “report our reactions there,” international media is after all controlled by several magnates and no matter what we report, they’ll air to the world what they were instructed to say. Let’s appear again on these pages after September 19th: I challenge anyone who supports attending the mass to witness how international media will praise “tolerant” policies of the Turkish state that shows how “sensible” she is towards old Christian—maybe even “Armenian” could be mentioned, in passing—monuments and religious sites. I challenge anyone here who supports attending the mass that international media will not address the issue of the Armenian genocide as a result of which the church stood dysfunctional for 95 years, nor will they address our sorrows for the stolen property and mass exterminated worshippers. Get real, people!
Yes, unfortunately I do agree with you MJM that anything and everything the Armenians will say at the church that can remotely shed a negative light on Turkey will be sensored by the Turkish government, and the international media which is dominated by Turkish allies the US, Israel, Britain and to some extent the European countries which want to brainwash their people that Turkey is ready to join the EU.
I agree with you that we need to study very closely how the Pontian Church opening went. In order to be effective, the Boycott must be either an all or none response. But getting the different Armenian sects to agree on this will be challenging. How can it be effective when Armenian is sending two top clerics. Therefore, we should from our part, make an effort to somehow expose the history of the Church and the way we feel about this hypocritical gesture by Turkey in the international media.
Bottom line is we need to get our “yergateh sherep” one way or another by strenghtening our people and our homeland economically, militarily and politically. If as a nation we are not strong on these levels, we will never be given a voice.
I meant to say: ” when Armenia is sending two top clergy…”
Katia jan… you took my words out of my mouth.
It seems Turkey found a way to throw a divide among us..it makes me soooo upset when i see this happening..but then again, i am not worried as i know all of us are fighting for our country and people…
I personally would not want to go there on the day set by the Turks..it is like a slap on my face.. as I stated, by dictating us when to go and how to do things is like having no voice whether we go there or not.. As Katia jan said it loud and clear and i hope all our wealthy and influential people read and respond to this immediately: many don’t want to particiate in this show that the Turkish authorities organized; however the world should know as to WHY the Armenians do not want to attend this mass.. they need to know the history, the background.. . and by blasting this all over the newspapers and media outlets we may accomplish our goal… but this can only happen if we pull this through as Katia said…
I also agree with Mjm, Zohrab, Perouz, and Karo. Even though I am saddened that we can’t find a common ground on this matter.. Taghem Turqeri gluxa for doing this to us…
We also should look at the Greek Mass that took place recently… I read nothing about the Genocide, nothing about why it was closed for 88 years old.. all i read was positive wave toward Turkey.. that is just wrong.. very wrong.. and I am afraid the same thing will happen with Akhtamar’s mass….i just hope that we come up with a plan very very soon…
Gayane
OK, Armenian two top clergymen are going, fine. The government has already made a statement that it’d most probably reject the invitation to attend. ARF called it, and rightfully so, a “cheap Turkish show.” Hopefully, other “sects,” as you call them, would join in partaking in the Turkish masquerade, too.
I meant to say “not partaking in the masquerade”
I like Katia K.’s suggestion that all who attend the Sourp Khatch mass wear black as a symbolic gesture highlighting the sorrow we feel as a nation for all the souls and other churches lost to us. I would only add to this a slight alteration. We should wear white with a black arm band. White to signify our hope and faith in the enduring place of Armenians in that part of the world and the black arm band to represent our mourning for what has been decimated, stolen, denied but not forsaken by us.
Katia, correction again. It is the Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of All Armenians that is sending two clergy, not Armenia. Maybe a subtle point, but an important one nevertheless.
Also Katia, you say “How hurtful it is for us that the church was renovated without the consultation of our experts…”. Our experts were indeed consulted, in fact the architects in charge of the renovation were Armenian (from Istanbul). And I know for a fact that they consulted not only experts from Armenia but also from the Diaspora.
Karo, I am afraid, you are mistaken. Armenians of Istanbul did in fact experience genocide. Some even in the streets of Istanbul. It is a widely held misconception that they were saved because of the existence foreign embassies. Most of those embassies could not or would not do anything to save them. Also Armenians NOT living in the 6 vilayets and Cilicia (for example living in Western Turkey) were also subjected to genocide. I understand and share your anger, however if the Diaspora boycotts the mass, who will be there to promote our cause?
I agree that we need to study the coverage of the Greek ceremony in Sumelia last Sunday. However, there was a lot of confusion in expressing the Pontian Genocide. Even the AW used an awkwardly worded paragraph on this. It did come out though that there were massacres and that the Greeks were driven from their ancestral lands. (Reuters and Associated Press stories had snippets of this) And if there are some Diasporan Armenians who are there and can eloquently and calmly give some comments we can hope that they will be picked up by the press. If not, nothing will come out. Then for sure it will just be Turkish propaganda.
Unless Erdogan plans on making a visit to recognize the truth of the Armenian Genocide during this Akhtamar show, Armenians have NO business being there.
Its our church, our land, our religion, our rules and our agenda. We should dictate what, how and when anything happens not take orders from the sultan and his diabolical henchmen. Well said mjm, zohrab andperouz.
Commentators, please identify your full names when you express and do not hide yourselves by abbreviations of names, nicknames or first names.
Thank you Gayane jan :)
Boyajian, I like your suggestion for the white clothing and black arm band for the Armenians who will attend the mass at Holy Cross church even more: white for hope and black for the grief of loss and injustice. Symbolic gestures like that not only will make a statement, but will also create an opportunity for discussion.
Ani, thank you for the corrections. I am aware that the Armenian government is planning on officially turning down an invite to the Holy Cross mass and that the clergy are being sent on behalf of the Supreme Patriarch and Catholicos of all Armenians, however, I doubt that the international media will pick up on that. My take is that they will either completely ignore it, or marginalize the matter by announcing that “Armenia” had sent two clergy.
Yes, I was wrong, Armenian experts were consulted in the renovation of the church. However, it is predictably obvious that the Turkish government has not or ever would have given them complete “cart Blanche” in the decision making process. Bringing in the Armenian experts is part of this charade, because at the end of the day, those Armenians will not have the power to weigh in on their expertise of the architectural authenticity of the church if the Turkish side decides that a cross should not be placed on it and a picture of Ataturk will be placed inside the church… sorry the Turkish museum. Either way, the Armenians are second class citizens in Turkey, to be used for their expertise when the need arises. Can you imagine how insulted the Islamic world would have been if this had happened to them; if we had called in on their experts to renovate their mosque and then kicked them out and made the mosque into a museum?
Dear M. H. BOULDOUKIAN,
Armenian Weekly staff is setting rules in these pages and it’s not against their rules to use abbreviations of names, nicknames or first names when posting comments. Please understand that some commentators might have personal motives behind using pen names. Some commentators posting here might also don’t reside in a free society like the U.S.
Cheers.
Hi, Ani,
You misread my post. I didn’t say that “Armenians of Istanbul did [not] in fact experience genocide.” I said they were largely (as compared to other Armenian-populated areas) were left unharmed. I also didn’t imply that they were “saved because of the existence foreign embassies.” I said they were left largely unharmed because the Turks “blew dust to the eyes of foreign embassies and representations” in an attempt to cover mass massacres of Armenians undergoing elsewhere in the country.
“Most of those embassies could not or would not do anything to save them.” Yes.
“Also Armenians NOT living in the 6 vilayets and Cilicia (for example living in Western Turkey) were also subjected to genocide.” Yes.
“I understand and share your anger, however if the Diaspora boycotts the mass, who will be there to promote our cause?” Two clergymen from Etchmiadzin and several representatives of the Constantinople Diaspora.
Turks are still playing the Armenians like a fiddle. First the protocols and now this!!! When are you guys going to wakeup and start to lead? I guess due to hundreds of years of being subservient to the Turks it has become a second nature! I am really sorry to see this in a nation who should be proud of their accomplishments and heritage. Civilization has thrived for having Armenians in this world. Has it really benefited for having the Turks?
Dear Katia, I agree that it was,and still is, a disgrace to convert the renovated church to a museum and not allow the cross (which was duly re-built) to be installed. And to have a huge Turkish flag and a picture of Ataturk makes us all cringe. However, I must disagree with you on the renovation process. You say “… it is predictably obvious that the Turkish government has not or ever would have given them [the experts] complete “cart Blanche” in the decision making process.” I don’t know if you have some specific knowledge or this is purely conjecture. The architects in charge in this case were Armenians, they did have the power to utilize any and all feedback by other experts and the renovations was done in an authentic manner. This is very important point, because we need to promote this relationship and celebrate their accomplishment under difficult circumstances so that their services can be utilized in any future reconstruction (take for example the work being done in Ani)
Dear Karo, thank you for the clarifications. I guess the point is that Armenians were not safe anywhere in the Empire. I don’t have exact numbers of Armenians massacred in Constantinople but I have heard numbers as high as 125-150,000. Not insignificant…
Who will promote the Armenian cause on Sep 19? I don’t know if the fellows from Etchmiatzin will even be interviewed as they might be under security. I suspect Constantinople Armenians will be in great fear. So there will be no quotes from those who can speak. I do like Boyajian’s idea of the white and black. I think our leadership should give this some thought.
You took the words right out of my mouth Fredrick. Unfortunately you are right and i have the courage to admit it.
I love how some people in their comments here suggest softening the approach to turks by making quirky “symbolic gestures highlighting the sorrow we feel as a nation”. FOR HEAVENS SAKE PEOPLE WAKE THE HELL UP! The majority of these people still relish in the fact that their great grandfathers put a stake into the ground with your ancestors sliced off head on it as a head bust to display their pride in killing off everything non-Turkish.
Jesus, Mary and Joseph is their no limit to how much patience and tolerance WE, the unjustly victimized and still vilified to this day Armenians, are going to swallow before we start thinking about calling the shots or even considering to demand that WE do.
Gee whizzz…talk about slave mentality. This event at Akhtamar is a HUGE insult to injury and nothing more. I really don’t know what else to say.
Why are we trying SO hard to dilute and/or circumvent the real issues here for the sake of Turkish pride and their distorted understandings of history?
Its more scientifically fascinating than sad really. Anyone thinking about a potential psych PHD topic here…?
I’m sorry if these comments came across somewhat crass or offensive to anyone here but I just couldn’t help it after reading all the comments above.
Hye, http://www.groong.com Tuesday, 8/17 there was a ‘release’ from Ankara describing the Pontic Greek ONE DAY religious event… as interpreted by the Turk. As this will be the same as that which the Turk will ‘release’ describing the September 19th Armenian’s ONE DAY at Holy Cross Church – as interpreted by the Turk – on the day following the Armenian’s ONE DAY – September 20th.
Dr. Gregory Stanton, a Genocide scholar and director of GENOCIDE WATCH has said, “Genocide denial is a double killing, it is considered the last stage of Genocide where the perpetrators and their successive states attempt to cowardly rewrite history, vilify the victims and thus trivialize their fate. Thus the Turkish state has extended its denialist propaganda by hiring lucrative public relations companies, lobbying firms and as well, even academics to lie to continue to pursue in the United States and Canada denials of the Turkish Genocide of the Christian Armenian nation. Too, with the policy of denials of the Armenian Genocide, the Turk’s own governments continues to victimize the Armenians. Too, the Turkish leaders also, by lying to their own citizens, thus corrupts the conscience of their own Turkish people. Turkey must acknowledge its own history. By doing so Turkey will contribute to ending the cycle of Genocides. Turkish leaderships must end their hostilities toward the Armenians. Turkish education should promote justice and reconciliation with the Armenians. Further, the civilized nations of the world, together, must urge Turkey to become, too, a civilized nation. Manooshag
Ani,
I’m afraid there’ll be no quotes from those who cannot speak just as like there’ll be no quotes from those who can speak. World mass media outlets most probably won’t broadcast our concerns regarding the fate of Armenians as a result of genocidal practices of the Ottoman Turks, nor will they touch upon Western Armenian lands occupied by the Turks as a result of genocide, nor will they mention the fate of thousands of other monuments of Western Armenian civilization scattered throughout the six Armenian vilayets, Cilicia, and beyond, that were blown up, desecrated, transformed into mosques, or sheepfolds bby the Turks. The reason I’m so sure is the way the mass media handled the Mass at the Greek Church last week. Except for spiritual communion while being at an Armenian church on Akhtamar island, which in and of itself is important, I see no other gains, so to speak—political, counter-propagandistic, informational—that Armenian would get. Sorry. The point that several commentators here raise is not about attending a church or churches or ruins of other religious and educational sites in Western Armenia. It’s about attending Holy Cross on a day designated by the Turks and on their conditions. I consider this humiliating, and frankly, don’t understand why can’t we just go and pray at any other time, the way late Archbishop Asjian and several Diasporan Armenians did several years ago? Why on one day so mockingly designated by the Turks? If you end up being there, could you ask a question to whoever you hope to give an interview: “Will Turks be happy if a mosque be open for just one day, whether in Turkey, or in a Muslim or non-Muslim country?” And see if your question will appear anywhere in the news. I bet it won’t.
It would be treachery and betrayal of Armenians all over the world to attend and pay money to Turkey. Not one cent to go to the Turks.
Dear Ani,
I have absolutely no doubt that the Armenian architects did their utmost to renovate the church in a historically authentic manner. My hope is that I will have the opportunity to one day see the church myself and marvel at their work. However, it would be naive of our part to disregard all of our past experiences with the Turks and somehow imagine that the Turks were silent investors in this renovation. Forbidding the Architects to place the cross on the dome of the church does not really qualify as giving them creative “cart Blanche”. The cross of a Christian church is its most symbolic relic and no renovation would qualify as being complete without it.
The only positive outcome from this arrangement is the fact that an archaeological treasure has been for now saved from further deterioration. It was a monumental achievement on the part of the Turkish Armenians, to secure government funds for this renovation. I completely agree with you that this success should not be lost on us, and their work should be highly praised.
Socially and politically however it is a deja vue. In the aftermath of the renovation, we have again been disrespected and used. The Turkish government approved the renovation only under its own terms of making it into a museum. It made sure that the renovation was authentic by allowing the Armenian architects to work on it, but at the end of the day the whole project is being viewed as a “tourism” investment and a “propaganda scheme” to cozy up to the EU.
If you delve into the sensitivities surrounding the property’s background, you cannot help but become “irate”. These are the facts:
1. Holy Cross Church is an Armenian church on lake Van which was awarded back to the Armenians in the 1920 Treaty of Sevres.
2. Not only has the Treaty of Sevres been disregarded, Turkey treats the property as its own, allows the Armenian architects to renovate it so that it may increase Turkey’s prospects of joining the EU.
3. Not only does Turkey not do the right thing by returning it to the Armenian church, it decides that mass will be allowed on one specific day, and makes sure to fly the Turkish flag on it. The Armenians will come to marvel at their church which is no longer theirs and contribute their tourism funds towards the expense the Turkish government incurred in renovating it.
If you are able to ignore all of the above, you will be able to appreciate the gesture of saving the monument archeologically.
Advertise – via the internet – to all honest religions of the civilized world… To local churches in USA and Canada.. of the Turkish PLOY of rebuilding the revered ancient Holy Cross Armenian Church… NOT as a Christian site by a Turkey – rebuilt ONLY to benefit and gain tourism for a Turkey. Even the American Muslims who may now have recognized the a Turkey’s goals using their ‘diverted’ Muslim religion to gain a TURKEY FOR TURKS ONLY… eliminating non-Turks.
ONE DAY EACH YEAR FOR ARMENIANS OBSERVANCES – 364 days of the year it is a Turkey’s museum… will probably honor their leaders who bravely perpetrated the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation – murderers and worse, whom Turks’ leaderships foist upon their citizens as examples of ‘leadership’…
Our ancient edifice, built centuries before the Turkish hordes from the Asian mountains descended to commit their Genocides of the peoples of the Caucasus… another effort to steal the Armenians talents, Armenians culture – eliminate symbols of the Armenians – now a Turkey’s museum to praise their gains via all their Genocides…
The American media is unavailable to the Armenian cause – Turks’ Genocides continue to be perpetrated and the guilt of the Turks’ ignored… Too, the NYTimes, who, finally admitted it had covered the years of Armenian Genocide (in the the Genocide years) realizing their printed articles of the Armenian Genocide – today, allegedly, would no longer ‘deny’ any coverage of the Armenians issues with Turks – don’t hold your breath… Omission works too…Manooshag
Just a minute – let’s back up a little. I was at Holy Cross 2 years ago. If you think it is “restored” think again. Renovated is not the same thing as restored. It is not restored until all the large wall paintings inside are restored. turks aren’t going to restore the paintings -they are religious works of Christian faith. Their notion of art is to have Ataturk hanging on the wall. Our paintings are still just fragments of faded colour chips on the wall. If you think they are going to “restore” Holy Cross, go to Istanbul and look at how they have “restored” the Greek’s Hagia Sophia. The marble columns are still in pieces in the courtyard. That magnificent Greek Christian church which once glittered with gold and jewels and light and artworks is a dark pit in which it is almost impossible to photograph. And Greeks as well as the rest of us pay U.S. $12 to go in and look at it. Holy Cross has been “renovated” so that it is no longer falling apart, rain is no longer pounding down in it, but “restored”? No. “Restored” means it need to look like it did in the time of our fathers. Restored means they take down their flag and their photo poster and put back our baptismal font and our lights and our crucifix and our paintings and prayer books and hand woven carpets and altar of gold. “Restored” means it looks like an Armenian cathedral. It’s a long way from “restored.” When you walk into it, you know you are in a money-making, political, turk museum, not an Armenian cathedral. So, get over it. Move on. Go to Ani, soaked with our blood – you’ll pay to get in there too. You think that Armenian architects had a free hand with the renovation? You are talking about turkey where you go to jail for using the big G word- no one has a free hand at anything, least of all an Armenian. Why don’t you go to the church in Gyumri? Our people who live there still need our support. and you can go there anytime. The Armenian priest will pray in our church with you.
Perouz, I appreciate your distinction between renovation and restoration. Good point. And I agree that Armenia needs our dollars and support much more than Turkey.
Irate Armenian, your criticism of the notion of a symbolic gesture is crass and insensitive to your fellow Armenians. The idea of a symbolic gesture is not intended to “soften” our approach with Turks. It is a way of participating in the first steps to reclaiming Akhtamar on our terms, however small the gesture. Would you rather some “irate Armenian” create a riot on this holy site? Of course not. Or perhaps you think our absence at this event speaks volumes. I think it would be interpreted as indifference and to the uninformed public it would only weaken global support of the Armenian Cause. Why should Europe, US, etc., care when we don’t appear to?
Clearly Turkey’s agenda is self-serving. It is a joke to think otherwise. But how does it serve us to not attend? I still don’t see what is to be gained by a boycott or what is lost by our attendance. This is our Akhtamar. Our Sourp Khatch. We should be there to honor the memory of our forefathers who built that architectural marvel as an expression of their faith. We lose more in world awareness by engaging in a boycott that will not even appear as as a blip on the media’s radar for news. Let’s face it. This is not a big event for the world. But it is an opportunity, however small, for Armenians to speak for truth.
Let’s keep our perspective. No one wants to help Turkey help herself as she adds injury to insult at Akhtamar, but to think that we can have things on our terms, on our lands which are being held hostage by the Turkish invaders is naive. We must move forward one step at a time, putting pressure on Turkey where we can, but being willing to take small steps when the greater long term goals are on the line. In this case, the greater goal is the return of Akhtamar to our care, which will never occur if we choose to appear indifferent. It may appear that we get a tiny nibble while Turkey helps herself to a nice big slice of the EU pie, but as long as we keep nibbling we will eventually tear a hole in the Turkish curtain behind which hides all her deceit and pan-turanic fanaticism.
Our duty is to not forget who we are in the meantime. We are the people of Asia Minor. We are the architects of a 3-4 thousand year old culture, we are the rightful inheritors of that blood-soaked soil, we are the true defenders of Sourp Khatch.
I think the underlying notion that really undermines arguments for going to Akhtamar is the false belief that Armenians have an influential say in what happens to Akhtamar post September regardless of whether we attend or not. It’s an unfounded assumption that many of you are making. Do you really think this is the beginning of real change in Turkey? We don’t have as much control as some of you think. The Turks are doing a fantastic job however in creating that misconception that some of you have already fallen head over heels for from what I can surmise.
We are being used as pawns to flaunt the very idea that Turkey can still do what they like with our property even in our attendance and not only that but with our blessing now. How demeaning and perverse.
I hope many of you are not as naive to think that ‘symbolic gestures’ of any sort on any ones terms would be permitted without the approval of the Turkish gov.
If not a single Armenian showed up for this event, but each of our leading church’s and the official Armenian Government released a one page press release that day explaining our peoples absence and our historical roots to the land accompanied by our demands this would guarantee attention from the media more so than symbolic gestures that bank on wishful thinking if at all permitted by Turkish authorities in the first place.
May I also add that even if those attending were allowed to make ‘symbolic gestures’ in whatever form, and even if the media did document the symbolism of your gestures it would have to pass the numerous pro Turkish filters before publication. If you understand the dynamics of how media operate with regard to our issues you know the probability of a handful of symbolic gesturing Armenians making the AP cut is close to nil.
Right on Boyajian!! I appreciate the balance in your thinking…. never naive to the Turks, but always keeping the goal first in our thoughts. Honoring the past and comitted to the future. I am sure the community you serve is the benficiary of your thought process.
Boyajian,
You are probably on the Turkish payroll to promote tourism in Turkey. You are probably not even Armenian. You certainly don’t have the vocabulary as an Armenian. You sound like a staff member on Hillary’s team. The Armenian Church should send one or two low level priests to observe but not to encourage attendance. Not one cent to go to Turkey that purchases drones and bullets to kill Armenians and deny the Genocide. They must come to terms first.
Boyajian… as eloquent as always. I completely agree with you. A silent Boycott will be an opportunity lost as I said in a previous post. If we do not make noise in the international media and just stay away from the mass at Sourp Khach, we will have abandonned an opportunity at exposing the truth about the church. The truth is that the church belongs to us, it belongs in the Wilsonian map of Western Armenia, and it is being exploited by its occupier.
Can anyone succinctly explain as to why our absence at the Turk-designated one-day-a-year event at our own church “speaks volumes?” Why our absence at a one-day-a-year show would be interpreted as “indifference to the uninformed public”? I don’t believe that uninformed public would be more informed as a result of our attendance at the event because no one mass media outlet would want to inform the public about the prerequisites, pre-history, or modern-day reverberations surrounding the event. Tha’s for sure. As if watching Armenians’ attendance or non-attendance at the event is no.1 item on uninformed public’s checklist. Conversely, maybe our absence would generate curiosity of “uninformed public” as to the reasons why Armenians declined to attend a mass at an ancient Armenian Church? And just how our absence “would weaken global support of the Armenian Cause issue,” I fail to see? More than the preceding defeatist Turkish-Armenian protocols that affected foreign parliaments in that they potentially could impede the pace of international recognition of genocide? Are the “global watchers” happy with the way the Turks have “renovated” the pearl of Christian Byzantine Greek architecture, the Hagia Sophia, with “Allah-u-Akbar” and “La Illahi illa Allah wa Mohamad Rasul al-llah” signs hanging all across its interior? Is this called renovation or renovation a la Turk? Whoever wants to go, go, but I know that the Armenian government rejected participating in a staged show. Nor do opposition parties, including the ARF, are in support of attending. Nor do many citizens of Armenia with whom I communicated support partaking in a Turkish masquerade in a 10th-century Armenian church, when toponym “Turkey” or a nation of “Turks” didn’t even exist, and with a portrait of a great falsificator, freemason Mustafa Kemal hanging inside the church. If any Christian country would allow such disparagement inside a Muslim religious site, I imagine what indignation there’d be in the Islamic world. I fail to understand why, and I ask this question for the fourth time already, is it necessary to attend one of 3000 churches, most of them destroyed, in Western Armenian on a day and conditions set by the Turks? Why on that particular day and not on any other day and in the same or any other church?
I don’t have to go to Akhtamar on the day the turks invite me too in order to make my claim on that property as one that belongs to Armenians. Does the fact that I’m not there right this minute without their invitation mean that Akhtamar didn’t belong to Armenians? Sheer absurdity.
If we are all convinced of the fact that this is a Turkish ploy directed to benefit Turkey’s self-serving agenda (which we all know is Anti-Armenian) someone please elaborate on what difference our absence or attendance will serve other than too fulfill our critical role as obedient subjects of propaganda?
Hye, advertise… via internet to all the civilized religions of the world – of the ongoing inhumanity the Turks espouse – permitting a ONE DAY event at a supposedly renovated Holy Cross Church in Aghtamar. The other 364 days this holy edifice is to be a Turkish museum – obviously where Turks shall display all the cultures they stole of the peoples whom they Turk slaughtered and worse to gain their goal of a Turkey Only For Turks… Send Press Releases – the world over, the USA/Canada and more… to all the local churches as well… The Turks lie as they pursue anohter PLOY, obviously, as though the Turk magnanimously saved the Holy Cross Church for posterity. This same ‘method’ was offered to the Pontic Greeks recently – entrance fee – payable to Turks was $12 – to enter a church – Turkish mentality. Manooshag
Kaizer Souze, I thought I liked your clever name and its reference to one of my favorite movies, but now I see you are an undignified and insulting person who makes false accusations against another Armenian simply because you don’t agree. Are you sure you’re Armenian?
No need to elaborate Zhorab, the Turkish tourism frontmen with false Armenian identities are posting here. As one blogger said, and in which I agree, the Church belongs to Armenians and it will always do so. Not one cent to go to the Turkish economy which in turn buys drones or bullets to murder Armenians. Don’t forget about Hrant Dink and who paid for the assasin’s bullet and gun.
You are right on, Zorab. Those who go are bending their knee in obedience to the butchers of our people. what else is it when turkey tells Armenians when and where and for how long, and all we can say is how much?
mjm, you make very good arguments and I respect your well reasoned opinion. I can’t really provide answers that will satisfy you. I just go with my heart and my heart feels pulled to Akhtamar. Even so, I don’t disagree with your contempt for the absurdity of Turkey calling the shots as to when we can attend and worship at one of our ancient churches. And of course I advocate Armenians worship at any of the many Armenian churches throught RA, Artsakh, Western Armenia and the rest of the disapora on any of the 365 days of the year.
I agree with Gayane’s early observation and warning not to allow Turkey to create a controversy that divides us. To Zohrab, Garbis, etc.,: I and others who support Armenians attending mass at Sourp Khatch are not the enemy. How about a little tolerance for a difference of opinion.
A comment to Garbis: I read your earlier post carefully and tend to agree that whether or not we go, realistically, this will be a controlled event in which Turkish media censors will dictate what gets broadcast. I am not naive. However, when I weigh both sides of the issue, my Armenian soul wishes I had the power to bring us all there on September 19 to smell the Armenian air, to walk on the Armenian ground and to hear our sharagans coming from inside Sourp Khatch. This may be a small event on the world stage but it is still important to me as an Armenian and may provide an opportunity for us to share our story. Turkish propaganda and hypocrisy duly noted.
It is just what Turkey wants.. they know VERY well that this event will divide Armenians.. they know that all of us are driven by passion for our country, our history, and our ancestry…and they know VERY well that no matter what they do, especially when it relates to the Armenian Cause/Armenians will create such distruction…and if they get the smallest % on their side, they will be absolutely content…because our passion can be expressed in many different ways.. perfect example was this mass.. and also when the protocols were being written…I personally did not agree with the Protocols and I personally do not agree with attending the mass.. but That is just my gut feelings…
However, not every Armenian thinks the same I do.. we definintely need to express our views: whether it is pro or con the mass… however, we should never put each other down.. NEVER… that is one thing I vowed myself in front of GOD… Never put down another fellow Armenian.. no matter what.. and I honored that vow for as long as I remember…
Even though I respect Boyajian’s, Ani’s and few others who are in support of attending the mass… I personally do not agree with it..but that does not mean I don’t like them..
I still think what needs to be done is MEDIA OUTREACH EVERYWHERE.. NON STOP..INTERNATIONALLY..to tell everyone about why so many Armenians do not want to attend the mass..we have to spread the word out.. why our newspapers, media sooo quite????
those who will be attending the Mass, I would request they gather information and report back to us.. to share their reaction/feelings/experiences not only what it meant to be there but how Turkey was conducting herself during this entire ordeal….. their insight story… as I understand TV and Newspapers may not have the greatest coverage due to many obstacles i am sure..all i want is great exposure of Turkey’s wrongdoing and fakeness..whether we attend the Mass or not…
Gayane
Iper dibar Krisdonia Hye, I make no slight towards you Boyajian and others who opine attending mass at Sourp Khatch. I’m also pretty sure that you are not a Turkish frontman although I cant say the same about the ‘Roberts’ within us. They will always be there trying to divide and conquer but as long we understand and respect each other I have no qualms with you personally, so let the discussion amongst us all continue with a healthy tolerance of different opinions.
Unsubstantiated opinions void of any considerations as to the repercussions of certain decisions however is a sign of weakness when arguing for or against a position. A vibrantly fulfilling debate of serious issues with fellow compatriots is healthy, normal and invigorating. I take great pride in discussing these issues with you all, especially our passionate fedayoohees Gayane and Katia K and do not consider you enemies.
If I may proceed, this is not a decision for the heart but for the head to make. Our feelings are important no doubt but don’t assume that my heart doesn’t also pull me to our infamous island. Just not on their watch and under their rules.
Armenians will not have a more predominant say in what happens to Akhtamar if we have Armenians present their on that specific day in September. Politically its a no brainer. PR wise its a bonanza for the Turks and their already salivating.
I tend to believe that attitudes and policy on Armenians and Armenia in Turkey are in no way shape or form changing for our best interests. If you all believe this as truth then what difference will having 1000 Armenians in attendance or 0 Armenians in attendance make if we are convinced of the states Anti-Armenian agenda (which i have no evidence to question)?
Interesting read Garbis and great insight.
So your basically saying that:
If we go with 1000 Armenians they’ll use reconciliation rhetoric in the media to blindfold justice and create misguided perceptions of Armenian divisions.
Or if 0 Armenians attend, at least we wont play a leading role in crafting our own demise that way giving the media an opportunity to get our take of the days activities by consulting our official Republic and religious leaders for opinions.
So in other words the risk of being screwed by Turkish propagandists is there in both cases, perhaps more with us attending, but by not going its the lesser evil.
Ayo Zohrab jishd es. Hamastayn em Boyajian yev ge hasgenam esadzneret.
Sireli Boyajian, Katia, Perouz, Gayane, Zohrab, manooshag yev Kiazre Souze.
Purk Asdouzo vor tzezi bes hyortiner oonink mer mech.
Luv heshetzek: MYASNAPAR bedk eh baykarink minchev verch.
I agree both with Mr. Boyajian’s and Zohrab, Garbis, etc. points of views.
I have to say though both views are not fundamentally at odds with each another.
Yes, we all know the turk will TRY to use this as a propaganda tool. But believe me, world opinion is NOT as gullible as some of you might think. in fact this a very good way of showcasing the absolute cynicism of the turk. These FEW Armenians are simply representatives of Armenians people are to say a prayer for the the souls of the Genocide victims will in a very small way help bring a tiny bit of “closure” to the survivors. As usual, turk is expert at putting it’s foot in it’s mouth. just look at all the recent turkish debacles. the turk is much more primitive and stupider animal than most of us think. let them do their usual games. their games are very transparent to world opinion by now.
Kiazer Souze,
I came to know Boyajian when I engaged myself in the second most-commented discussion here in Armenian Weekly. I admired her well-thought, eloquent, and utterly patriotic views on a variety of issues pertinent to the Cause. False accusations against another Armenian, indeed, do you no credit and I think you owe an apology to Boyajian for undignified and discourteous remark.
Msheci jan.. it is sooooooooooooooo nice to hear from you..:)
I second what Mscheci said.. I was also part of the second most-commented discussion forum on AW.. and I have to say.. that was THE MOST and UNFORGETTABLE discussions I have ever experienced.. thanks to Msheci, Katia K, and Boyajian for running the show.. I still think AW should record that discussion in their achives for being the longest and passion heated and fact driven discussion forum EVER…
My dear commentators.. I am sure KS did not realize how the comments came off.. I am sure KS did not mean to hurt anyone’s feelings.. we are all frustrated and angry with what Turkey is doing and sometimes we say things that simply was born out of anger and annoyance… I don’t know this 100% but I have a feeling that KS did not mean to be intentionally rude or mean…especially when the passion burns in him or her like it does in us..
Zohrab jan and Garbis jan.. thank you very much for your kind words…it is much appreciated.. my passion and dedication came from my great grandfather who dedicated his entire life finding orphans and reuniting with their families after the Genocide…and I am sooo greateful for that…
God Bless..
Gayane
Thanks to all (Stepan, mjm, Zohrab, Garbis, John, Ani, etc., who understand the need to stand together and respect one another as we struggle for justice for our ancestors. Even you, Kaizer Souze, because I suspect your passion comes from the same place mine does; our Armenian soul. Shad shnorhagal em to Msheci, Katia and Gayane whose support means a lot to me because we got to know and respect each other in a previous lengthy discussion.
Zohrab you write that “Unsubstantiated opinions void of any considerations as to the repercussions of certain decisions however is a sign of weakness when arguing for or against a position.” I agree with this in general theory, but I have yet to see an explanation of the negative repercussions of Armenians attending the mass. Maybe I have not read carefully enough. To me it seems that the Turks gain ground whether or not we attend, so why not attend to honor our own people (thanks John for acknowledging this) and to take whatever small gain we can from this. I know many do not agree and I understand their aversion to attending the event. I admit to my own ambivalence in doing anything that might help Turkey’s image. This is not an easy issue for any Armenian, whether they use their head, their heart or both!
I support Gayane and Manooshag in their assertion that we must exploit the media NOW in explaining why so many of us oppose attending this Mass on Turkey’s terms. I think it is important to recognize that some of us will attend the Mass and many will not, but that both sides on this issue can use their respective positions as platforms from which to promote our cause.
Msheci, Boyajian, Gayane,… it is great to be in your company again! Although no forum can top the “discussion” we had over the Taner Akcam article challenging Davutoglu.
Thank you Zohrab and Garbis for your kind words. Internet news sites should be encouraged and more people should comment to make these discussions/brainstorming healthier and more informative to us and non Armenians alike. For a people as disbursed as we are, the Internet can have a vital role in bringing our communities closer, and helping us better identify our nation’s needs and goals.
Coming back to the issue at hand… I think our frustration and anger do not stem from our dislike of the ideas of our fellow Armenians, but from the fact that this Turkish propaganda stunt seems destined to be a win win situation for Turkey no matter what angle you look at it. If Armenians attend the Holy Cross mass, they will help Turkey enhance its chances of joining the EU by portraying itself as tolerant to all religions and conciliatory towards the Armenians. Not to mention, we will help generate touristic income for Turkey by visiting a monument that belongs to our people. If we boycott and don’t go, we will dishearten the Turkish Armenians, give the international community the impression that we are indifferent and an excuse for Turkey to deny further renovations of Armenian monuments, and these historic sites will fall into further disrepair. I think the choice should be left to individual Armenians, but the Armenian nation should not waste this opportunity to shed light to our cause, by electing to conduct a quiet boycott.
We need to make lemon out of lemonade, but turning the tables around. The only place where we have a sliver of an opening to make our “voice” heard is in public perception. We can steel the spotlight from this fake “tolerance” show, by for example holding a huge mass in Armenia around a small replica of Sourp Khach, on the same day and at the same time as the one being held in Turkey. We need to invite the international media and explain to them that although we welcome the renovation of Sourp Khach by Turkey, we feel it is not an honest attempt in tolerance because: Sourp Khach is an Armenian church which should be returned to its owners, a holy site that the Turks have turned into a touristic income generating museum, an official invitation was not extended to the government of Armenia, the international archaeological/historical society should be outraged that the government refused to put a cross on the dome of the church, and that Turkey continues our Genocide by renaming our ancient monuments with similar sounding Turkish names aimed at erasing any trace of our civilization from eastern Turkey and making its people think that these ancient Christian monuments belong to them…. We should tell them that we have elected not to go, but Holy Cross church is in our minds and hearts as one of the symbols of the Armenian nation along with our mount Ararat.
There should be a whole month of Holy Cross church coverage on Public Armenian TV, with documentaries talking about the history of Holy Cross turned into the international media. Who but us, should expose the truth about Holy Cross and that it was awarded back to us by President Woodrow Wilson along with the six Armenian Vilayets in the 1920 Treaty of Sevres? Who but us, should explain the origin of the island’s name and the story of how Armenian Princess Tamar’s forbidden love had cried “Akh Tamar” with his last breath before drowning in Lake Van in the 10th century? Who but us, should be outraged that Turkey would dare to rename the island “Akdamar” after its recent renovation: “AK” apparently means “white” after the AKparty of Erdogan, and “damar” means “vein”.
Where is our propaganda machine? Where are our leaders? How can they waste such golden opportunities to shed light to our cause? Books, the Internet, movies, documentaries, symbolic gestures, coverage in the international media… We won’t have an effective voice if we don’t speak up using all communications methods available. Leaving the entire spotlight to Turkey and disappearing in a quiet boycott is not the way to go. It is exactly what the Turks are hoping for.
Katia, I love the fact that your mind is always working, thinking of ways to use situations to our benefit. I agree that is what we need to do now.
Some Armenians will be in attendance at this event, while others will boycott. This is clear and I respect both these choices. Those who must boycott the event should not do it in silence. Check your contact lists. Who do you know? Who can help bring attention to this matter? Get Peter Balakian to bring this to 60 minutes. Ask Kim Kardashian to twitter about it. Write editorials to newspapers, magazines, websites… Diocese and Prelacy, where is your leadership? Are our clergy men speaking about this? What of an ANCA response to this.
We must harness our outrage into a positive and productive response.
For those who still consider attending the mass on Aghtamar, please read Sat, Aug 21 2010 article “Armenian Kids Made to Leave Sourp Khatch in Aghtamar.” While I understand that the “museum” will be so “graciously” transformed to the church by “religiously tolerant” state of Turkey for just one day on Sept 19, I invite you to take a deeper look at the general attitude of the Turks towards the heritage of nobler and more ancient peoples inhabiting Asia Minor before they were wiped out in 1915-1923. I fail to see how our attendance might change this intolerant, xenophobic attitude unless full international media coverage of the prerequisites and current reverberations pertaining to the Armenian genocide and the state of thousands of Christian monuments and heritage attributes in Turkey happens, which I have strong doubts about. In short, I understand from the comments above that the only small “gain” that we can expect is “honoring our own people.” It’s important, but in dealing with such a duplicitous state as Turkey, is, to me, highly insufficient. I suggest that our groups organize annual voyages of Armenians from Armenia, Artsakh, and Diaspora worldwide that can be dubbed “Road to Home,” that’d visit all the remnants of Armenian civilization in Asia Minor, pray inside those ones that still stand ruined or half-ruined, if not allowed to pray inside, pray outside near a church or a monastery or a khatchkar or even a house from which Armenians were forcibly expelled and viciously murdered by the Turks. These voyages must be accompanied by the representatives of mass media—Armenian and foreign—and their coverage would have to make its way to the online or mainstream media outlets. To me, this would be more effective way than attending a one-day event so mockingly arranged by the loathed Turks. Sorry.
Here’s the link to the article mjm is referring to:
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/08/21/armenian-kids-made-to-leave-sourp-khatch-in-aghtamar/
Talat Pasha declared his goal as having “one Armenian left to be displayed in a museum.”
It is no irony that the Turks will achieve their goals through their propoganda in a museum (The Church).
If you cannot see how attending this museum and paying money to the Turkish government is treasoness and symbolically shameful, then I doubt that you are an Armenian.
Kiazer Souze: “The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist, and…..pouf…like that…..he was gone.”
The greatest trick the Turks will ever pull is convincing the world that it didn’t have intent to commit Genocide, and pouf…(sound of flatulence)…..like that, they paid nothing.
mjm, please be careful not to diminish the need to honor our people and our history and faith. I know you don’t intend this. I like your Road to Home suggestion. I believe there are many avenues from which to keep pressure on the Turks and we should exploit as many as we can. Imagine the domino effect of more and more Armenians praying at Armenian sacred sites throughout Turkey. I watched the clip of the kids at Sourp Khatch and was moved to tears by their bravery and civil disobedience which demonstrated Armenian dedication to our heritage and revealed the true nature of Turkish religious tolerance. They can call it a museum and attempt to stifle our expression of faith in that holy space, but they can never change our hearts. Bravo Hai Aspet!
I have seen the tube. What a prospective occasion to turn the propaganda on our side and show to the international press the behaviour of the soldiers forbidding the lighting of candles and the singing of DER VOGHORMIA by the Armenian children.
This happened. It will happen in the future. Do not forget that We are on enemy territory even if we consider a ZAVTEWADZ land. If we are KHIZAKH, then we accept the challenge and attend this religious ceremony on Sept. 19. Soldiers follow orders everywhere, in every country; they do not use their minds. Being a soldiers is a lifetime job. No unemployment. Do you want them to lose their job. Rare are the MUTINIES TO ORDERS. History today is for us Armenians worldwide is a chess game. You move a stone, I move a stone until the game is over; comes then the following games.
Perhaps this invitation to attend the Aghtamar religious ceremony is only for Armenians living in Turkey which includes the Hamshems, the Zazas and many Islamized Armenian generations
Sorry for the hurry for the query:
To all Commentators: do you attend regularly religious ceremonies every sunday in the area you live? Do you stay at least 2 hours and pray during the BADARAK? Do you light a candle(s) when you enter an Armenian church, so as your lifepath is illuminated? When was the last time you took the HAGHORTOUT YOUN? Do you encourage and support the Armenian clergy of the town you live in?
to M.H. Bouldoukian – I fail to see the connection between the current discussion and your question.Please do not assume that all of us live even remotely close to an Armenian church. Many, many, of us in the Diaspora live in cities and towns with less than half a dozen Armenians, let alone a church. It is a struggle simply to maintain our language. This does not mean that we have no interest in what is happening on Aghtamar, or that we do not have spiritualy held beliefs.it also does not mean that we are not politicaly astute or aware of Turkish propoganda .
Do any of you know if the deliberate conversion of a religious building into a “museum” by force falls under any definition of cultural genocide by the UN?
Hrag,
You pose an interesting question that I don’t think on these blogs have an answer to.
However, what I do know is that the Turks are going to make the so-called renovations with Armenian tourism monies. It is rather a sick joke on their part–kind of like building a moseque at ground zero of the World Trade Center. If any repirations are going to be made by the Turks, they are going to do it by taking your hard earned cash and giving us back a token percentage.
If people don’t see the Turkish cruelty in this, then I don’t know if they Armenians despite what they espouse.
Cultural Genocide is not a part of the UN Genocide Convention. However, the destruction of monuments falls within the purview of UNESCO.
UNESCO needs to step up!
Thanks Harut. Thinking out loud here again..
I wonder if UNESCO considers the unauthorized transformation of a religious monument a breach of human development and/or cultural diversity? More so, does the act of transformation itself constitute a form of destroying monuments?
If so, what can be done about it and how can we use a possible UNESCO acknowledgment or condemnation of Turkey’s illicit appropriation to ensure all of our Akhtamars remain Churches as they were meant to be?
Interesting line of thinking Hrag. This action seems to represent a strategy more powerful than any wrist band wearing activist seeking the medias attention could ever garner by showing up at Akhtamar. Our efforts should be channeled to these ends if we truly are irate.
Wheres the Armenian Patriarchate’s pull in all of this?
Mr Sassounian,
Although there is plenty of literature covering the Genocide, there is a palpable lack of material delving into the Cultural Genocide of Western Armenia. Perfect opportunities come once in a lifetime, and if we do not react to them at the opportune time, the moment and its possible impact is lost forever.
The scheduled mass at Sourp Khach is such a window of opportunity, open to us at this moment, to use as a platform from which to launch awareness for the archaeological/historical/cultural Genocide of the indigenous Armenian race in what is now eastern Turkey.
There is a serious need for documentary coverage of the irreparable damage done to our ancient civilization’s monuments, historic sites and churches; in itself a crime against humanity. This is the time, where our historians, writers and producers have to converge their talents to prepare a complete inventory of the thousands of churches that the Turks have intentionally desecrated, bombed, turned into mosques and stables, of our ruined historic treasures of Cilicia, our art and ancient Bible pages that turn up in museums such as the Getty Museum, our thousand year old cemeteries that are being destroyed… etc. The documentary can then transition to known current Turkish landmarks such as the Turkish Presidential Palace that sits on the Kassabian property… We should at the least, do this for our record keeping purposes and for the awareness of our coming generations. The lacking/inadequate response by world cultural/historical/archeological authorities such as UNESCO should also be documented.
This is the time to put together very well researched and prepared documentaries and push them in social, online communication networks and mainstream media outlets. A perfect storm comes once in a lifetime. I think we are in such a storm now. Let’s have all this information pour down on the world. It is long time in coming.
Turkey and its allies have teamed up to keep all of this information buried. Politics can be influenced by public opinion, and that’s where our work lies now.
Peter Balakian’s documentary on 60 minutes was just perfect. We need more of those, in addition to hour long detailed documentaries. Saying that Turkey destroyed thousands of our churches does not have the same impact as showing before and after pictures, listing the actual names of the churches and bringing in eyewitness accounts. Complaints should also be directed to UNESCO.
We look up to you as someone who has the connections to convey this message to the appropriate sources.
Hrag and Zohrab, I couldn’t agree with you more. Where are our political and religious leaders, and why aren’t they voicing their outrage to UNESCO. How can a government decide to convert the ancient church of a nation that it’s predecessor exterminated by Genocide into an income generating museum for its own benefit? And the income is mostly going to come from the victimized race itself! The message here is:”You are done with. You belong only in museums, and we are still going to milk profits from the very idea of your existance”. Disgusting, uncivilized and immoral to the max. Shame on UNESCO. Shame on the United States for closing its eye on human rights/cultural abuses by its so called allies, in exchange to political and economical gains.
The decent thing for Turkey to have done would have been to repair the church in goodwill and gifted it back to the Armenian people. That would have been something that Turkey could have earned major “kudos” on. I guess it’s too much to expect…
Zohrab, I disagree with you on the “armbands” idea. Yes we need to apply pressure on UNESCO, but “symbolic” messages can be instrumental in touching the public nerve of leading countries if they are effectively presented and publicized. People nowadays have zero attention span and desire to “read” the news. They only react to VISUAL and FAST information. I watched the Youtube of the Armenian kids inside Sourp Khach,… and I am telling you… the stories that can be woven from that footage can indead be very valuable. I would definitely include their video in any documentary concerning our Cultural Genocide and the impact it has on our kids, their sense of identity and their social development. Bring in the psychological effect of how an individual feels when the property of his ancestors, and a holy place at that, is being freely converted and utilized by another people as a “museum”! Does he feel that he does not exist? Does he feel that he does not belong anywhere?… It’s called SPIN. Very effective in this fast paced world if enough resources are put into it and it is done well.
Why haven’t we heard from America? There is such a thing as the
International Religious Freedom Act of 1998
International Religious Freedom Act of 1998
U.S. Congress
Title:
International Religious Freedom Act of 1998
Introduced by:
Rep. Frank Wolf, September 9, 1997; Sen. Arlen Specter
Dates
Date passed:
May 14, 1998 (House), October 9, 1998 (Senate)
Date signed into law:
October 27, 1998
Amendments:
Related legislation:
Foreign Service Act of 1980
The International Religious Freedom Act of 1998 (Public Law 105–292, as amended by Public Law 106–55, Public Law 106–113, Public Law 107–228, Public Law 108–332, and Public Law 108–458)[1] was passed to promote religious freedom as a foreign policy of the United States, and to advocate on the behalf of the individuals viewed as persecuted in foreign countries on the account of religion. The United States, through its constitution and various international agreements, supposedly has an obligation to support religious freedom around the world by skirmishing religious intolerance in countries that put sanctions on the religious rights of the people. The Act was signed into law by President Bill Clinton on October 27, 1998.[2] Three cooperative entities have been maintained by this act to monitor religious persecution.
An Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom within the Department of State,
A bipartisan United States Commission on International Religious Freedom, and
A Special Adviser on International Religious Freedom within the National Security Council.[2]
As per the Act, the Congress and the President are obligated to take into account the various issues of religious freedom while developing the country’s foreign policy. As under the Title I of the Act, a bureaucratic infrastructure is created for dealing with religious issues. This is known as the Office of the International Religious Freedom which is regulated under the US Department of State. Title II creates the Commission on International Religious Freedom and Title III a special advisor to the president on international religious freedom within the National Security Council. The crux of the Act lies in Title IV. Title IV details the possible options available to the president and his actions based upon them in response to the states which violate the provisions under the Act. Under Sec. 401(b)(1), the President shall identify specific countries that the Commission on International Religious Freedom designates as having obstructed religious freedom. The president must then, with the consultation of the secretary of state, the ambassador at large, the National Security Council special advisor, and the commission, design a response to those countries.[6]
Countries that are severe violators of religious freedom are categorized under Sec 402 of the Act and this subjects them to punitive sanctions which are listed in Sec. 405. Under this section, the president must either enter into a binding agreement with the concerned country to end the religious persecution, or to choose from remedies outlined in Sec. 405 of the Act. This section offers the president with fifteen options to exercise against countries engaging in religious persecution. These include
a private or a public demarche;
a private or public condemnation;
the delay or cancellation of scientific or cultural exchanges;
the denial, delay, or cancellation of working, official or state visits;
the withdrawing, limitation, or suspension of some forms of U.S. aid;
direction to public and private international institutions to deny assistance;
and sanctions prohibiting the US government from entering into import or export agreements with the designated governments.[6]
I echo Katia K’s letter to Mr. Sassounian. This is a time for action.
We should become more sensitive to the Armenian cause by boycotting all goods and services to countries that have not recognized the Armenian Genocide in which we do not live in. I love seeing Turkish products left untouched in the super market shelves. I love kicking a politician out if he/she has not lived up to their promises with our issues. It should be your patriotic duty to do so and it is called freedom of speech.
I do not buy anything that is made in Turkey… especially the loghums that I love so much..
I do not even buy Chevron gas because they being heavily supported by the Turkish money..
However, Kaizer may have a point even though it may be hard but it is not difficult to accomplish.
Gayane
Armenia will become a powerhouse of a tiny country (concentrated wealth in Artsagh as well) if it can export its stuff to all over the world and not allow any other country’s products or services if they have not recognized the Armenian Genocide. Look at how China has done it. It is a seller nation, not a consumer nation. That is why this century belongs to the Chineese. And, no American can stop us Armenians from expressing ourselves in this manner including the right to speak out at Jews, from the ADL, against their aparthiad and victim exclusivity.
At Christmas, our markets are flooded with turk figs. small, dried-out hard fruits. Read the label and buy the wonderful ones from Greece. They are superior in flavour and worth every single penny more. They are big sweet juicy figs when they are cooked. serve them with your Christmas dinner. Everyone will ask for more and you will never buy the cheap turk ones again. turkey is now making towels and jeans and textiles of all kinds. Wonderful things come from countries of the world whose workers and government deserve our support. you are making a statement every time you open your wallet, whether it is for figs or jeans or an airline ticket to Aghtamar.
for all those who think it is pointless to claim what belongs to us. click in on this web site’s current news story, http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/kremlin-is-ours-say-heirs-of-ivan-the-terrible-2306520.html
Katia JAN… you are definintely a think tank with full of ideas… I nominate you to be the Director of Organizing a Media Outreach about this..:) and I will be more than happy to assist..
As Boyajian suggested and I have been doing it every time I find an interesting and provoking article, I share it with EVERYONE on my contact list, Armenian and Non.. It is interesting that I got an e-mail from one of my close friends who is not an Armenian.. she sent me two e-mails.. one before she knew the background and the history of the Aghtamar and another one after she took the initiative to read about it.. to illustrate how important it is to educate Non-Armenians, full and detailed background as Katia and Boyajian suggested need to be exposed to EVERYONE.. especially Non-Armenians; otherwise we will not be successful in reaching massive groups of people…
My friend’s First E-mail
Hey G – I know how sensitive the Turk- Armenian relations are. And I do not condone anyone mistreating anyone else. But this sounds like normal museum rules to me. It makes sense that burning candles would not be allowed anywhere inside. Even if the kids moved to the center of the structure, the smoke from the candles could still do damage.
(In fact, if you go to the MET in New York City or up to the Getty in LA, you would not be able to burn candles there either.)
The heartwarming part of the newspaper article is that the kids went to visit the site. I’m glad that Armenian kids go to to visit Turkey. And I hope that Turkish children visit Armenia. That is a good thing.
Her Second e-mail
G – I googled and read a little bit more about this matter. I can see the issue is more complex that just the act of burning candles. There is controversy around the church itself and the very fact that it was restored by Turkey and then turned into a museum in the first place. I barely read for five minutes and already I can see that a lot of emotion is involved.
Armenians want to worship in the building – sing, pray, light candles. Turks say no because the building is now a museum that they spent a lot of money fixing up.
The controversy was not made clear in the article, initially, but that’s probably because the article was intended to be read by Armenians who already know the history of the church and the island.
I’m emailing all this to say, I undestand now why you would be upset. Your church is not a museum to you, whether the Turks say it is or not. And photographing a group of kids who attempted to sing, pray, and light candles was probably intended to get people stirred up about the subject. Which it did. I can see that it made you angry and I understand why.
I wish things were different between the Armenians and the Turks. But there’s no easy answer and probably won’t be resolved anytime soon, i’m afraid. In the meantime, I will pray for you and your family and for all of Armenia and Turkey. I know that God is bigger and more powerful than even the mightiest nation. He is the One who can handle this situation.
I love you, Gigita, and I will pray that one day all Christians everywhere will be able to worship freely in places that are holy to us. That includes those places in Armenia and Turkey. I think we can do this and still respect other religions. I think that in this case, based on what I have read so far, that Turkey is wrong in what they are doing with the Akhtamar church. They should allow Armenians to worship there.
Very very different when one does not know and reads about why Aghtamar is being boycutted and why Children are being thrown out and when someone actually learns of the history and background and understand the matter in detail. This is how we need to do it..
God Bless
Gayane
“You are making a statement every time you open your wallet, whether it is for figs or jeans or an airline ticket to Aghtamar.”
Right on the mark Perouz. Very well said. Not a single penny.
I beg to differ with many on this line.I wrote on another forum that our Babiks Mamiks and/or middle aged and the young who have signed up,ought to go,notwithstanding all adversities mentioned.Why? and How to proceed:-
Firstly if this rare occasion to be on ARMENIAN SOIL in huge numbers and attending Mass in Akhtamar church by Armenian King Gagik Artzrouni is passed up, we fail to drive home that it is SO,for the world public at large.A Tremendous plus to our Cause!!!
However,I also suggested that if -like at opening ceremonies-Ataturk or turkish Flag is draped on facade of church or even inside,the pilgrims should NOT enter,even if mass is conducted inside church.Stay outside in huge numbers,pray there,even if not allowed to light candles.The International media correspondence will understand toroughly what is going on.WE will have scored best this way.never mind if our clergy inside are surprised.
Meanwhile the local authorities will also comprehend that they cannot impose upon the remnants of the Armenian Genocide,as they did before.
Let’s get together here after September 19 and, if there’s a larger gathering of Armenians on Akhtamar island, analyze as to what we essentially achieved by attending the Turkish masquerade. I should like to hear achievements other than “honoring our people” or “hearing bells and badaraks” on the shores of the Armenian Lake Van. These are very important, but I’d like to concentrate on what impact our attendance had in the mass media and the international support for the recognition of the genocide of Armenians whose churches and monasteries in Western Armenia, such as Holy Cross, have been desecrated and transformed into museums, and most of 3000 others transformed to mosques, sheepfolds, or just piles of stones by the Turks. I hope we’ll learn another lesson of how we should deal with the Turks from then on.
Good proposition mjm. Yes ge yegrortem.
gayane,
Every Armenian knows about Talat Pasha’s proclamation to leave one Armenian living to be displayed in a museum and have the admission paid for the sightseers.
The opening of our sacred relics to be trampled on by sightseers and who are paying the Turkish government revives Talat Pasha’s dreams and is teasoness to Armenians all over the world. Why not turn the moseques into museums where Armenians get paid for admission? Turkey has to come to grips with its evil past and pay repirations that does not have our blood on it.
“The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist, and …..puff….like that….he was gone.”
“The greates trick the Turks will ever pull is convincing the world that they had no intent to commit Genocide, and …..pouffff (sound of flatulance)….like that, they will escape justice.”
Good idea mjm. I hope those who boycott along with those who attend will be able to have their voices heard. Park Asdoudzo. We will see…
Despite my ambivalence, I still lean with Gaytzag Palandjian above toward attending this mass and following the example of peaceful civil disobedience demonstrated by the Hai Aspet children last week. Most participants will not be able to be inside for the Mass anyway so the gathering outside of peaceful, faithful Armenians will be a media opportunity I hope we will be able to capitalize on.
Boyajian,
Your suggestion of attending the museum would be symbolically treasoness and fall into the sick Turkish joke played against the Armenian people. It would be like saying Talat Pasha’s goals have been accomplished of the only way to see the Armenian culture is to go to a museum.
Kiazer Souze, I disagree with you. I don’t think it is treasoness for Armenians to be drawn to Sourp Khatch to show the Turks that this church will never be a museum to an Armenian. I respect your opinion and understand it and other’s decisions to reject these Turkish terms. However, if you need to criticize, you should criticize them, not your fellow Armenians.
Refusing to engage with Turks, even as they continue to be denialists, will not benefit us. These are times for action. I hope you will find an active way to express your voice other than passively boycotting and finding fault with other Armenians that you disagree with on a website. We have enough enemies.
Maybe you and Azad could have a cup of sourj together after your next ABA meeting (Armenian Bashers Anonymous) and discuss ways of supporting each other in getting over these destructive tendencies.
(Just kidding; I owed you one.)
I wonder if Kiazer Souze has any clue about the origin of his handle here.
Not sure, Boyajian, absolutely not sure. As much as those in attendance would hope to capitalize on the event, so do those in the Turkish government and the world mass media who’d want to narrow the Armenians’ attendance to our acceptance of Turkey’s miraculous metamorphosis from internationally known pluralist fascist state to open, religiously tolerant, and transforming society. There’s no doubt in my mind that the emphasis will be made on the latter rather than on whose church it was; what happened to thousands of parishioners and hundreds of thousands of parishioners and their families inhabiting mostly Armenian-populated Van vilayet of the Ottoman empire; as a result of what crime against humanity committed by the Turks the church stood idle for 95 years; what right does an “open” and “religiously tolerant” Turkish society have to transform a Christian church into a museum; and what is the state of roughly 3000 other Armenian churches and monasteries in Western Armenia that have been blown up by the authorities, desecrated, ruined, transformed into mosques and sheepfolds? There’s just no way, Boyajian, that any of these pressing issues would make their way to the mainstream media even if tens of thousands of Armenians be in attendance on the island and along the shoreline of Lake Van. Let’s also agree that if this happens the way I and many others here predict, by means of AW and other Armenian online publications we’d advise Armenians in the Diaspora and the Republic to never again fall into such primitive Turkish traps however emotional we can become towards our heritage in Van and other provinces of Western Armenia until there are substantial steps towards rapprochement and admittance of guilt on the part of the Turkish government to which we could reciprocate.
You’re correct, Boyajian, in stating that “refusing to engage with Turks, even as they continue to be denialists, will not benefit us.” No one here denies this trivial truth, but many of us would like to see substantial steps on their part so we could engage with them, not a masquerade on Akhtamar island or elsewhere. You may argue that substantial steps start from minor ones, but allowing a 10th-century Armenian church—when there was no toponym as “Turkey” or a nation as “Turks”—to function as a church for just one day is not even a minor step; it’s a cheap Turkish demonstration of who’s the current “boss” on ancient Armenian lands from where Armenians were forcibly expelled and massacred en masse.
Ohh look our provocative pet pipsqueak from the peanut gallery is looking for more attention…
Get another hobby murat.
My dear mjm, we all want substantial steps! We only differ on the notion of when to engage with Turks.
I endorse the idea of asserting our rights and using our voices whenever possible to advance our cause. I really don’t think Armenian attendance at Sourp Khatch is a one dimensional event, (i.e., that it only serves to play into the hands of the Turkish desire to appear religiously tolerant and magnanimous.) I think a swell of Armenians at Sourp Khatch to worship on September, 19th, serves to point to the absurdity of the Turks decision to make this house of worship a museum. It pointedly begs the questions the Turks fear: Who built this church? What happened to all the Armenians that 95 years ago worshipped here? If there are still Armenians willing to come and worship, and there is an Armenian Patriarchate in Istanbul, why are they not allowed to administrate this site as a church. Where is the altar?
I respect your opinion, mjm, but pray that those who attend on Sept., 19th do not do so in vain. Though you and others disagree with my (and others) opinion, I hope we can all pray this together.
Garbis jan.. thank you for the laugh..:) that was straight to the point to our beloved Murat…lol….
Mjm.. I agree with you…
Boyajian jan.. I also see and understand your stand.. we are all torn about this.. whichever way we take, Turks will benefit it.. UNLESS we use our media very intelligently as Katia jan and myself advocated so much.. That is the ONLY way to get the truth out… not only for Armenians around the world but also for NON-ARMENIANS just like the story of my non-Armenian friend that I shared with you all on the other forum…
Gayane
Murat,
I wonder if you know the origin of my handle. A lot of Turks try to shut me up as well. I am hear to let people know that it is symbolically treasoness to visit this museum in Turkey. Leting a few low level clerics go to view the shape it is in is ok. Otherwise, going there and feeding the population that has occupied my grandparents’ land is outrageous and hurtful.
Boyajian,
“I think a swell of Armenians at Sourp Khatch to worship on September, 19th, serves to point to the absurdity of the Turks decision to make this house of worship a museum.” I fail to see how it could serve to this point unless a mass media outlet raises it up. Further, “It pointedly begs the questions the Turks fear: Who built this church, [etc.]? Question raised by whom? Again, if by a mass media outlet, then Turks would indeed fear, but by a swell of Armenians, I strongly doubt. I’ll pray that only two mid-level clerics appear in the church and not a swell of Armenians because in my view this is NOT the time and NOT the event to engage with the Turks. Only if major news agencies report on it raising the questions you raised: “Who built this church? What happened to all the Armenians that 95 years ago worshipped here? If there are still Armenians willing to come and worship, and there is an Armenian Patriarchate in Istanbul, why are they not allowed to administrate this site as a church. Where is the altar?,” etc., then I’d accept that it was worth going. As things stand, there’s virtually no chance that any of those major agencies would touch upon these issues. It’s a grave mistake to attend this Turkish mockery, and I hope there will be no Armenians except for clerics.
mjm,
I totally agree with you. However, Hillary’s non-Armenian propaganda team are hard at work.
One good thing is that, in contrast to “Hillary’s’ non-Armenian propaganda team”, as you correctly dubbed it, Kiazer Souze, the government of the Republic this time has shown will and determination not to attend the Turkish show. I’ve heard from many people in Artsakh and the Republic who cracked this cheap Turkish-US ploy and are strongly opposed to attendance. Many in the Diaspora also object. Those who follow orders from their bosses, let them go, but regardless, those who object will be triumphant, because it’s already obvious that no word on the pre-history of the church, its worshippers, fate of inhabitants of the Van province, or the state of 3000 other churches and monasteries in Armenian provinces will be uttered by a few magnate-controlled media.
mjm, you are right. It is necessary for the media to be present for any Armenian presence to be worthwhile at Sourp Khatch. Meanwhile an unnoticed silent boycott will only help underscore Turkey’s ‘magnanimous’ decision to preserve as a museum ‘the abandoned church of long gone inhabitants.’ Makes me sick!
It was s imple question: Do you know the origin of the handle? I get the feeling you do not. What is this have anything to do with “people” trying to shut anyone up?
Murat,
The origin of my handle was from a myth told to Turkish kids if they misbehaved; namely, that if they didn’t behave …you know….Kiazer Souze would get them. I am the Usual Armenian Suspect.
With regards to Boyajian, a silent boycott is the best thing to do and then have ANCA explain that Armenians are not interested in feeding the Turkish occupying population with tourist dollars to go see a museum and fullfill Talat Pasha’s dream. This idea of visiting a museum is sick Turkish joke.
Boyajian, if you admit that “it is necessary for the media to be present for any Armenian presence to be worthwhile at Sourp Khatch,” have those who can’t wait to rush to the island checked if there’s going to be media presence? Have they checked if the media would tend to represent the Armenian (i.e. truthful) side of the story? Are they sure that Armenians’ attendance–if not truthfully presented by the media in terms of factual demonstration of events in 1915-1923 in Ottoman Turkey–could prevent “Turkey’s ‘magnanimous’ decision to preserve as a museum ‘the abandoned church of long gone inhabitants.’”? And what if the media that are present play the same tune as the Turks, i.e. how “compassionate” and “religiously-tolerant” they have now become and being known to the world as savages for hundreds of years?
And, for the fifth time, why can’t Armenians go to our sacred ancestral lands, visit churches or whatever is left of them as a result of Turkish “preservation” of the Armenian heritage, on any other day, not the date designated by the Turks for their own advantage? Have we heard of any forces within the US government that push Armenians to attend the mass on that particular day? And if some Armenians respond favorably, then how should we call those few?
Kiazer Souze, ANCA will explain this to who? Who will be noticing a silent protest?
I am sure you were inspired by the movie Usual Suspects, and a worthy source it is, but as you must know then there is no such myth told to Turkish kids in reality, it was simply a myth, told in a story in a film. In the movie, the myth the victim, survior of a gang shootout, tells the police is about a Turkish gangster hardened by the brutal murder of his family and goes on to be a mythical figure, never seen but always leaving a trail of violence and sows fear among even the most hard core criminals. It turns out, the victim (Kevin Spacey) who spins these stories is himself is Kiaser Souze, and the poor detective realizes that Souze was inspired by the common objects in the office around him to spin his tale, but he has already been set free. The viewer is left wondering how much of it was myth and how much real, so to speak.
Still, where did this name come from? A little bit more of trivia here, but for real now. I am not sure where McQarrie, the writer of the script, took Kiazer from, but Souze was apparently a Turkish friend named (probably last name) Sozer. He liked the way it sounded and changed it to the way he heard it. Though I have also heard slight variations on this.
So, you can understand why I am puzzled by this choice of a handle here by an avowed turkophobe.
Boyajian,
ANCA can explain this to the American congress and the media. Hillary’s staff that you work for will notice the protest. How hard is it to understand that we must boycott anything Turkish?
Boyajian,
I am an Armenian and as such, I note that you have ignored some the questions posed by certain of my compatriots.
For one thing, you have not explained how the cost of attending this humilating event of visiting a museum and spending my hard earned cash to feed a Turkish population occupying my lands is worth any sort of a small lopsided media event.
Murat, we’ve seen the movie and could make out the meaning of the screenplay without a Turk explaining it to us, except for your presumption that “Souze” could have been a Turkish name of “Sozer”, which is least important for the viewers .
Boyajian, one of the questions that’s been ignored is: “What’s the rationale behind attending a Turkish mockery in our own church and on our own ancestral land where millions of Armenian were slathered by Turkish savages on a day designated by the Turks and on their conditions?” Why can’t we attend this church or any other church or monastery that still stands ruined or half-ruined as a result of Turkish “religiously-tolerant, caring preservation” of ancient Christian monuments, on any other date and on our own conditions (i.e. visit whenever we want; pray inside, or, if not allowed by “religiously tolerant” local Turkish authorities, say a massive, sound prayer outside a church; and have all these on the tape with trusted media reps present with us)? Can anyone answer this question? Or it doesn’t sit well with an agenda that’s already been worked out for Armenians’ to attend the Holy Cross mass on the 19th?
Kaizer Souze and mjm, it appears that you think that I have ignored your questions. Not true. I have read your comments to me which have become increasingly contentious (rather than a respectful exchange of ideas) and needlessly hostile in tone. Also several untrue and unwarranted ‘Hillary’s team’ comments from both of you demonstrate that you are not really talking to me (who you do not even know) but to some imagined character that got stirred up in your mind by my comments. I can’t speak for this character. I am not on Hillary’s team (whatever that means?). I am simply an Armenian woman sharing ideas and opinions on one of my favorite sites for Armenian news.
Now if you want to take it down a notch and recognize that we are on the same team but feel differently on some points, I think we would have a more productive discussion. But remember, I represent only my own voice, not some monolithic body of “treasonness Armenians willing to sell their souls to the devil for a cheap couple of minutes of minor media attention.” I can’t answer questions directed to this mythical body.
I shared my honest opinion which I reiterate here: I respect your viewpoint that it is wrong for an Armenian to go to Akhtamar on Sept. 19 and become a willing participant in what is essentially a Turkish propaganda stunt. If this is how you feel, I support your decision not to go there and to advocate that others not go. On the other hand, I just recognize that going to Akhtamar holds a potential opportunity to advance our cause in the media rather than allow the media to portray the event as solely Turkey’s generous contribution to the world of antiquity preservation and religious tolerance. I find the thought of this sickening.
If two “low level clerics” can go to Akhtamar and handle the responsibility to make the most of whatever media attention we have access to, than Amen! But if a body of faithful, remembering their dead and voicing their objection to the desecration of their church and homeland, would garner more sympathy from the media, than so be it. Why do these two sides have to be mutually exclusive? Let the ANCA put out its position paper/news releases against the event. Let the RA reject the invitation. Let Etchmiadzin cry foul! AND let some go to Akhtamar, not for the Turks, but to stake our claim.
As far as explaining: “how the cost of attending this humilating event of visiting a museum and spending my hard earned cash to feed a Turkish population occupying my lands is worth any sort of a small lopsided media event.” What do you want me to say? This is a personal decision. In my way of thinking, you place way too much value on your dollars and not enough on your voice or the spiritual significance of the event. Just my opinion. Forget the few million dollars (if that!) that Turkey might get from this. It’s nothing compared to the benefits we could derive from both a well-publicized boycott and a clarion voice of truth at the event. How do you know the media event will be lop-sided? Unflattering news reports, films and documentaries come out of Turkey all the time. Couldn’t we work to create this opportunity rather than argue amongst ourselves? Since it is likely that some Armenians will attend, doesn’t it make more sense to try to figure out how to capitalize on their presence while also inundating the media with our outrage at the charade the event represents?
Mjm you ask: “What’s the rationale behind attending a Turkish mockery in our own church and on our own ancestral land where millions of Armenian were slathered by Turkish savages on a day designated by the Turks and on their conditions?” Why can’t we attend this church or any other church or monastery that still stands ruined or half-ruined as a result of Turkish “religiously-tolerant, caring preservation” of ancient Christian monuments, on any other date and on our own conditions (i.e. visit whenever we want; pray inside, or, if not allowed by “religiously tolerant” local Turkish authorities, say a massive, sound prayer outside a church; and have all these on the tape with trusted media reps present with us)? Can anyone answer this question? Or it doesn’t sit well with an agenda that’s already been worked out for Armenians’ to attend the Holy Cross mass on the 19th?”
Again, just my opinion, but I think you make a good point and I have already agreed with you on this previously. Armenians should visit as many other Armenian religious sites as we can, on our terms, on dates of our choosing, thus avoiding taking part in this Turkish show. But aren’t we still transferring dollars to Turkey if we do this? No agenda here. Go or don’t go. It is a personal decision. For some it will be a spiritual pull that draws them there for others it is a political statement. But if one chooses to go, I would say that the most common rationale would be that it is a rare opportunity to worship in an important Armenian Cathedral which bears witness to our thousands of years presence in Asia Minor and begs the question “What happened to these indigenous people?” Who better to answer this question and to declare we are still here and waiting to bring it all home?
KS, I agree the ANCA should speak out about this and represent to the world the hypocrisy of this Turkish show. I have yet to see anything from ANCA but hope it will be coming soon as it would be helpful for all of us if they would put out a fact sheet on the situation. In the mean time I ask you both to be a little more respectful of those who don’t agree lock-step fashion with your politics and refrain from falsely accusing fellow Armenians of treachery, treason or mind-bending. I respect your opinion and your passion, but I believe the Armenian Cause can and should be approached from many angles for the greatest benefit. Just my opinion.
Just a thought….can anyone call the Kardashian sisters and convince them to go to Akhtamar on Sept.19? Watch the rush of media that would follow them there! Then Kim can twitter from Sourp Khatch about how pleasant the weather is there in mid September and “btw, isn’t it time for Turkey to just admit to the genocide, already?”
Boyajian,
From your vocabulary, I am not convinced that you are a woman let alone an Armenian. From your thought process, I am having a very difficult time understanding how you can justify (as a so-called Armenian) going to a museum in Turkey and feeding the population there occupying my land after they murdered my great grand parents. This total disregard of the symbolicly treasoness act and constant reweighing of it with something of no or very little return is what is causing great trepidations that one, you are Armenian. Apparently, you were not told by your grandparents of Talat Pasha’s goal of having one Armenian left to be displayed in a museum.
…I remember that old Armenian man who confessed about his Turkish neighbors…
if just happened to share a house or a room with a “Turkish friend” never forget to keep your long stick beside your bed…Turk will strike and slit your neck, while you are in sleep, that is their ancestral habit…..opening of Akhtamar Armenian church is a trap toward Diaspora Armenians…..”Never trust a Turk’…..
Wow, KS, this is getting really, really weird. I don’t even know how to respond to such sexist and prejudicial thinking. My vocabulary is manly? Is there such a thing? And my vocabulary is odar-ish? What? Your detective radar is giving you false readings. Don’t give up your day job.
I am not the only person who has commented on this site that they find some merit in Armenians attending the mass on Sept. 19th. Why so much attention on me? Really weird. Hostility and suspiciousness are unfortunate byproducts of having been victimized and marginalized as a people. Not one of our best features.
Also, Kaizer, Talaat failed!
I accept that you think it is an act of treason for an Armenian to go to Akhtamar under these Turkish terms. I just don’t see it that way. I’m sorry it bothers you so much. As far as your comment regarding ‘constant reweighing,’ I really don’t understand what you mean, but I will just say that I only repeat my views on this because you repeatedly ask me to justify my opinion. No more.
Dear Boyajian,
Kim Kardashian should follow the example of Jennifer Lopez….Turkish state policy addressed, especially to Diaspora Armenians. where they can break-up the “unity” of Armenians against Turkey’s “goodwill intention” toward Armenians, for their immediate political goal, in order to neutralize the truth of “Armenian Genocide” especially to make confusion within members of US Congress, where on going debate will be moderated and eventually will be favored to Turkish false propaganda machine, philosophy…
filled in Congress regars’ the “truth of of Armenian Genocide!!
mjm, Kiazer Souze… I thought we had completed our useful dialogue on this important sujbect, but I can not let Boyajian take the heat on this matter. Boyajian , i continue to be impressed with the balanced , rational and clarity of your expressions. It is thinking like this that will advance our cause.Very respectful of others but always open to opportunities.
Kiazer Souzer… the core of Armenian values is to connect with each otherbased on our common bond with our heritage. It transends and subordinates all minor conflicts. You should be more respectful of not crossing that line with Boyajian. She is not the issue. Her comments have been consistently full of commitment and openness to others views. What else could you ask for in a post such as this.
Now, abck to the issue which you have attempted to divert us from. I will not repaat what Boyajian eloquently stated… I agree with the spirit and tone. I will add that you remind me of many Armenians who are trapped in anger. I feel that you consider yourself a committed Armenian, but I pray that one day you will realize that with anger only you are missing many opportunities for the cause you claim to love.
We all think of “my grandparent’s land” and feel the emotion, but if all our cause becomes is a nostolgic display of anger, we will make little progress and it will remain a distant notion.
We live in exciting times. A public opportunity in Western Armenia? Wow! and the only response we can garner to the same old “hate Turks” mentality. Come on. We can be better than that. Are we that insecure that we don’t think we can find a way to get a benefit from this? We have a serious victim mentality that we need to move beyond. I am not intimidated by the Turkish attempts. If this is our land and church, THEN LET’S BEHAVE AS IF IT IS. IGNORING THIS IS NOT HONORING OUR GRANDPARENTS.IT IS CONTINUING TO BEHAVE LIKE A VICTIM. IT IS TIME FOR US TO ACT LIKE THE OWNERS.
I pray for the strength and wisdom of our nation and thank God for this opportunity.
Thanks, Stepan. I feel the love. Bacheegs to you.
Boyajian,
I’m afraid you failed to provide a convincing answer to my question above and thus justify attending Holy Cross precisely on the 19th and on Turkish conditions. By “visiting as many other Armenian religious sites as we can, on our terms, on dates of our choosing, thus avoiding taking part in this Turkish show” we, of course, will be “transferring dollars to Turkey,” but it’ll be based on OUR PERSONAL will to visit our ancestral lands and in a manner that WE PERSONALLY will choose to obey with. For these personally-set plans, I’ll be willing to “transfer dollars to Turkey” in order not to be a part of Turkish masquerade. You fail to see, or maybe deliberately omit, the difference between a staged and a freely-chosen setting for attendance. You also fail to see that a personal decision may take a variety of forms for attendance, whereas a staged event will, almost certainly, benefit those who staged it in every respect. I’m afraid you err as well in that “it is a rare opportunity to worship in an important Armenian Cathedral which bears witness to our thousands of years presence in Asia Minor and begs the question “What happened to these indigenous people?” It is NOT a “rare opportunity” unless you attend it on a Turk-designated date and participate in it in a Turk-decorated fashion. If you’d prefer our own choosing, there’ll be PLENTY of opportunities to worship in this or any other important Armenian cathedral. No biblical connotation urges you to worship inside a church especially that you know that a portrait of great falsificator freemason Mustafa Kemal will be hanging inside instead of holy silhouette of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ effectively desecrated by the “religiously tolerant” Turks. As for “declaring we are still here and waiting to bring it all home,” you fail to explain how it’s achievable if no international media coverage, not just Armenian ANCA, will shed light on this?
Stepan, I personally don’t hold Boyajian responsible for the desire of some Armenians to attend the event, so there’s no need for you to state that you “won’t let Boyajian to take the heat on this matter.” I’m just offering my observations and always provide arguments in support to my position. I disagree fundamentally that attending a mass on the date and in the form designed by the Turks would “underestimate our behavior towards the church as ours.” Why? How can ignoring the Turkish masquerade be classified as “dishonoring our grandparents”? How? How does any other date and our own choosing be less honoring our grandparents” than the Turk-staged show? Just how? As for continuing to “behave like a victim,” you’re dead wrong, I’m afraid. For me, the best illustration of the opposite is those groups of Armenians that visit our churches, monasteries, and other sites independently, like the group led by the late Archbishop Asjian. I’ve watched the film while in Armenia and became overwhelmed by the courage and the civil position that the group was able to ascertain there as OWNERS, not victims, of all the sites that they visited. Why don’t we capitalize on this experience, make it all-national, and with as expansive coverage as possible by the media reps accompanying such groups? KS maybe tougher on the issue than I am, but I can understand his point: visiting our lands must be done on OUR terms to an optimal degree, as OWNERS of those lands and architectural monuments that belong to us. This has nothing to do with a victim mentality, on the contrary: it demonstrates our increasing tendency towards asserting our rights on our heritage on the level of all-national, not narrowly Turkish, choosing.
Okay, mjm. Just one problem. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am only sharing my personal thoughts on the matter and my understanding of how and why some may see positives in going to Akhtamar. As always, I respect your opinion and even see your point regarding visiting on our own terms. I am not familiar with the visit led by the late Archbishop Ashjian but would love to hear more about it.
If I understand you correctly you do not object to going to Akhtamar or any other Armenian site on any other day, just not on a day set by Turkey as if they have the right to grant this permission. You reject the idea of Turkish sovereignty over our historic sites and resent the destruction they have allowed to happen to them. You also resent the idea that they will use this event to pretend they are caretakers of our antiquities and religiously tolerant. You do not see the value of being present at Akhtamar to “declare we are still here and waiting to bring it all home if there is no international media there to witness it.” I agree.
Oh how nice; while the Turks and ADL lobby against an Armenian Genocide resolution in the coming months, Turks set a trap to have Armenians spend tourist dollars at a museum to make them selves look good at the same time fulfill Talat’s dreams.
Instead of spending that money in a museum in the coming months, we should tell the filthy scumbags to take a hike in circles from Istanbul to Der Zhor without food or water.
We should spend our money in excavating the bones of our ancestors in Der Zhor to get our genetic information.
Turkish diplomacy works against Armenian interest!!
Does anybody know why Turkish president Abdullah Gul chose to visit US on Sept19,2010????
Gul will try to prevent Armenian Genocide Resolution adoption by US Congress
There is a “male” vocabulary and a “female” vocabulary? For God’s sake guys… this is getting out of hand!… Which century are we living in? Boyajian, I would not bother if I were you!
The fate of our cause does not rest solely on how the media will perceive this September 19th Sourp Khach Propaganda stunt! Instead of holding our breaths and waiting for Turkey’s next propaganda stunt, we should become the “Captains” of our cause, by strengthening our motherland and by having Armenia ARTICULATE “our demands from Turkey”. This whole propaganda shenanigans will be “nullified”, and the spotlight will be snatched form Turkey, if our Armenian government makes an official complaint about our Armenian church being turned into an income generating Museum instead of allowing two Etchmiazin clergy attend! The Armenian President can summon the International media on September 19th, and expose this event for the outrageously immoral deed that it is. Why is our Armenian government sleeping is beyond me! Can you imagine how the Jewish leadership would have reacted, and what a big international fuss they would have made out of this! People do not disrespect you… You LET people disrespect you. Stand up as a government and express the outrage of your people!
They massacred us… out of the 2.5 million that we were, they massacred 1.5 million of us to take our lands and make them their own… they took over our homes, farms, businesses, bank accounts, treasures and even life insurances..now they are changing the names of our historical/archaeological/worship sites into “Turkish” sounding names, and making “museums” out of Christian Armenian churches to make money even from the remaining traces of our ancient civilization… and our Armenian government is mum about this!
Why do you think they were able to massacre our women, children and men in the first place… can you guess?… we did not have a government to protect us,… we did not have an army… now we have one… and it is choosing to stay quiet in front of this latest assault! When you have to speak up, you need to speak up! The Armenians who chose to attend can do a lot to ruin Turkey’s day in the sun if they want to! They marched us to our deaths like sheep… we can refuse to visit Sourp Khach like sheep, and that applies to both going there and to boycotting! Can the Turks arrest Armenian tourists for holding up our flags inside the church? It is an Armenian church!
If we still want to use our churches, then we should be outraged that they are turning them into museums! No voice=you do not exist=you belong in museums! Do we only want to be good in crying, wining and bickering amongst us!
Katia, well said. I agree with you.
Indeed, KS. I’d add that we failed spending money for such an important endeavor as building a monument in memory of hundreds of thousands of Armenians let starve and burnt alive by the Turks in the Deyr Zor dessert. Has any Armenian group ever explored the possibility and the Syrian government’s reaction to that? I don’t see why Syrians would object to this commemorative monument.
“Can the Turks arrest Armenian tourists for holding up our flags inside the church? It is an Armenian church!”
Obviously the intention and wish is not a celebration of the Armenian culture and heritage and say prayers in a space that has heard the prayers of ancestors for a thousand years but to wave a flag, challenge the sovereignity of a nation, a host nation, and make a nationalistic and cheuvensitic deomnstration and cause trouble and embaressment for the Turks.
Can anyone blame the Turkish government moving so gingerely on this? How can they be expected to accomodate virulent Armenian nationalism on their own soil? I have only lately became aware of the risks the Turkish government is taking on this and similar issues. Thanks to you.
Stepan: Continuing to knowingly succumb to Turkish trickery, ploys, image-building, and point-scoring means continuing to behave like a victim. Conversely, attempting to change the rules to an optimal extent possible, based on our claims on the lands, churches and monasteries, and the entire heritage stolen from us, to me, means starting to behave like an owner.
I tend to think that the event on the 19th is a continuation of the same policy of KS-dubbed “Hillary’s anti-Armenian team” to bring the two nations together in order to advance her government’s interests, not restoration of justice for Armenians. First, idiotic attempt at having two polarized sides sign and ratify ill-conceived, out-of-reality protocols by exerting pressure on the government in the Republic. Now, it’s the Diaspora’s turn to succumb to the same careless policy by attending the Turkish masquerade. In both cases, tactical considerations for rapprochement are greatly flawed as they avoid addressing the core issue of Armenian-Turkish “relations”: recognition of genocide, and focus on mending fences between the victim and the unrepentant murderer-nation without regard for the core issue. Nothing will come out of this, even with the group of flattering Diasporans rushing to Akhtamar on the 19th. How many times the U.S. administration would need to repeat the same mistake over and over again to understand that for a problem to be solved the CAUSE, not the consequence, needs to be addressed?
Murat you wrote:
Obviously the intention and wish is not a celebration of the Armenian culture and heritage and say prayers in a space that has heard the prayers of ancestors for a thousand years but to wave a flag, challenge the sovereignity of a nation, a host nation, and make a nationalistic and cheuvensitic deomnstration and cause trouble and embaressment for the Turks.
Twisted logic Murat, to think that murdering thieves can be considered the “host nation.” You still don’t get it. Nobody wants to “embarrass” Turks. We want to make Turkey face justice. We want to let the world know the truth of how Turkey came to turn a church into a museum for tourists to visit. We want the world to ask why is Turkey sponsoring this one day a year religious service for an ancient church? Who does it belong to? What happened to these people? Why isn’t the Armenian Patriarchate of Istanbul allowed to administrate the church for its faithful? And we want to answer these questions with a piercing and unwavering truth. Does this really surprise you?
Do you recognize the remnant of Ottoman mentality in your thinking? You think Armenians should be ‘grateful’ to Turkey for ‘restoring’ this church by turning it into a museum. It ‘annoys’ you that we should find fault in Turkey’s self-serving gesture. We ‘rudely’ insult Turkey with a nationalistic demonstration on Turkey’s sovereign territory. It doesn’t even occur to you how Turkey insults Armenians by turning a house of worship into a an “architectural marvel” that they will proudly display and that tourists will pay to view. This church does not belong to Turkey and it offends me that Turkey couldn’t just repair Sourp Khatch because it was the right thing to do for Armenians, for history and for justice.
Can you not see how twisted you and your sick little nation are not to recognize the need to finally face the truth and apologize?
Listen, Murat: You’ve been asked a direct question which you chose to avoid in the best sneaky Turkish tradition: “What’s your position on these pages with regard to the core issue of Armenian Question during the final years of the Ottoman empire and subsequent years?” If your mental ability only allows you to copy and paste excerpts from Armenian commentators’ posts, do please state unambiguously: “Ladies and Gentlemen, being a Turk, my mental abilities are limited only to extracting excerpts from your comments and spit out spite on them.” Believe me, knowing the Turks better than anyone else in the world, Armenians would understand this completely. Likewise with your most recent “masterpiece”: “Obviously the intention and wish is not a celebration of the Armenian culture and heritage and say prayers in a space that has heard the prayers of ancestors for a thousand years but to wave a flag, challenge the sovereignty of a nation, a host nation, and make a nationalistic and chauvinistic demonstration and cause trouble and embarrassment for the Turks.” But, dude, haven’t your ilk mounted a Turkish flag on an Armenian church after wiping out its parishioners in 1915-1923? Hasn’t your state, mildly speaking, “challenged,” and factually speaking, annihilated the whole civilization of Western Armenians? Hasn’t your state become a “host” on the lands of genuinely host nations inhabiting Asia Minor as a result of scorching, devastating invasions of your nomadic Seljuk and Mongol forefathers? Hasn’t it ever occurred to you that when an indigenous nation is colonized, nationalistic demonstration is inevitable in an attempt to free the nation from the repressive foreign yoke? Finally, hasn’t it ever occurred to you that when the whole nation is massacred by your savage, barbarous grandfathers, the remnant of that nation may become chauvinistic and rightfully indignant against the unrepentant murderer nation? Oh, and excuse me, look who’s talking about causing “trouble and embarrassment for the Turks:” a Turk, whose ilk caused 1.5 million of innocent people to disappear from the face of the earth; hundreds of thousands of others forcibly deported; three quarters of our ancestral lands stolen; and almost all monuments of ancient Armenian civilization desecrated; thus committing genocide of people and incorporating their lands and properties into the filthy republic of turkey. See, ungrateful Armenians who were annihilated in millions by the Turks are causing “trouble and embarrassment” for the most compassionate, human life-valuing, religiously tolerant, most respectful, and open-minded Turks. Why would they come to be known in the world as “barbarian Turks,” might anyone know?
mjm,
Well said. I don’t know why, but you sound like an Armenian to me. Even Murat gets it that it is a trap. Those who don’t see it as a trap are either purposefully leading the lambs to the wolves or are just outright wreckless.
Murat,
Armenians don’t have to wave a flag ….all they have to do to wear a shirt written “ARMENIA MY LAND”………let’s Turks come and arrest American or European citizens….
Your beloved nation is joke of the world…..
Turkey ruffled by Iranian official’s comment on Armenian genocide
“How can they be expected to accomodate virulent Armenian nationalism on their own soil?”
“Obviously the intention and wish is not a celebration of the Armenian culture and heritage and say prayers in a space that has heard the prayers of ancestors for a thousand years but to wave a flag,”
Very interesting statements… The Armenian ancestors said prayers in this church for a thousand years, but somehow the soil that the church is standing on is Turkish soil, even though the Turkish Republic is only 90 years old! And before that the Turkish empire had ruled 3,000 year old Armenia for 700 years, the same amount of time that it ruled Lebanon, Syria and Palestine… but somehow those are no longer Turkish soil, but the Armenian lands are Turkish soil because the Armenian population was killed off. It is not acceptable for the Armenians to be nationalistic and celebrate their nationality holding the flag that the church truly belongs to, a flag that stands for their culture, history and religion, but somehow, it is civilized to place the Turkish flag on top of a thousand year old Armenian church and claim it as a Turkish museum. It is wrong for a people to celebrate its nationality, but it is not wrong for a people to destroy another nationality.
Turkey is very tolerant of other religions and nationalities… as long as they don’t mention anything about their nationalities and do not put their cross on their church…
Hmmmmm…..
Real tolerance would have meant returning the church to the Armenian theologians, not milking a sacred site for touristic income! Can you imagine if we put the Armenian flag on top of a mosque, and asked Muslims to pray there on a specific day, but not mention that the mosque belongs to them, because now it is an Armenian museum… There are all sorts of flags displayed in the United States of America. No one calls the different nationalities “virulent” and “dangerous”!
Bizarre….
Why all this worry… unless you have something to hide… It is one thing for a nationality to naturally disappear from the history of a land.. it is another when that nationality has been brutally wiped out from that land. You do not put your flag on the church of a people who’s women you raped, and children you drowned and men you beheaded and ask them to be thankful and come in and pray nicely…
You renovate the church, apologize for what you have done, and return it in good will to the Armenian church. Now that is something that all Armenians would appreciate and be impressed and thankful about. That would be the difference between a racist backwards nation and a strong modern nation that is not scared to admit its wrongdoings and moving on.
Not to worry… the idea of waving the Armenian flag was just that:an idea …
Bravo Katia, brilliant!
Katia K — Correction: “And before that the Turkish empire had ruled 3,000 year old Armenia for 700 years…” Ottoman Turkish empire (The House of Osman) was established in the 15th century AD. This makes the duration of Ottoman rule over Armenia for roughly 500 not 700 years.
mjm,
I agree with you 100% Unfortunately, there are a lot of ADL and Turkish lobbiests who are either paid by the ADL and the Turks to say certain key words that are repetitive all over the blogisphere. Not to mention the FBI and CIA monitoring these web sites. You have to be carefull as to whom you are speaking to. I’m glad you caught on to the sharades.
Mjm.. you are brilliant.. qefs galisa when i read your comments..You remind me of Msheci who has the same wealth of knowledge and can shut Murat and his kind one word at a time.. Bravo……
Boyajian and Katia jan….you have been and will always be my role models..:)
KS- you have strong points and i agree with you on many levels… except Boyajian is our sister.. i warned everyone very early on that Turks are doing things like this knowing very well that it will put a divide in us.. ari ch@toghenq es anter shunerin to do this to us….i am sure you would agree…
Grish you mentioned that Turkey’s President will be visiting USA on the same day that Aghtamar’s event will take place.. I am going to read the news that you provided to us.. thank you for that..
Stepan- thank you for your encouraging words.. it is our love and passion for our ancestors, lands, and culture that will keep the fight alive.. it will never die..
Murat-i just don’t get it.. are you not embarrassed by your stupidity and Anti- Armenian mentality… absolutely incredible how one can be sooo clueless… i feel sorry for you..
have a great day…
Thanks, KS, for refreshing my memory as to who some of the commentators here might actually be and that the FBI and CIA are monitoring these websites. Well, if they now do, let me tell them out loud: I don’t give a f**** damn. Being cabals of certain sinister supranational, supragovernmental forces, the so-called “internationalist power elites” that assumed a blasphemous right of orchestrating world events, these agencies should distinguish between anti-government, anti-establishment proclamations or actions from rightful indignation of a people who were subjected to genocide and who raise their voices in an attempt to restore justice. If these agencies don’t distinguish between these two things, then I really pity them. I alsod question the level of their professionalism and knowledge of the subject that’s being discussed on these pages. My motto is never be anyone’s b***, especially the government’s.
mjm, I appreciate the scrutiny, however, I am afraid you are wrong on this one. The Ottoman Empire ruled from 1299 to 1923; for roughly 700 years.
I used the number “700” in my earlier post, because that is the number I encountered in the books and literature that I have read.
Gayane and Boyajian… always great to hear from you!
Actually, the correct lifespan of the Ottoman Empire is 624 years. The number is rounded up to 700 or rounded down to 600. Most Arabic history books place it at 600 years.
Either way, Sourp Khatch church was built between years 915-921, about 400 years before the Ottoman Empire even existed.
So much rich history and culture stolen from us…
Katia K: My comment was in response to your remark: “And before that the Turkish empire had ruled 3,000 year-old Armenia for 700 years.” You’re wrong: the duration of Ottoman rule over Armenia is less than that. I’m not arguing that the Ottoman Empire existed for roughly 700 years, but its rule over Armenia spread only during the 16th century AD when the Ottoman Empire and Safavid Persia divided Armenia among themselves. This (i.e. Ottoman empire’s rule of Armenia) makes it roughly 500, not 700 years. You either misread my post or I wasn’t clear enough, sorry.
The 400 years that preceded the Ottoman empire were filled w/ Seljuk rule, where they acted not only as rulers, but as patrons who used Armenian architects and stone masons to build their monuments. Those ‘Seljuk’ buildings, turbes, etc. were all built by Armenians since the Seljuks knew nothing of architecture. Ahktamar, as well as Armenian domed churches built in prior centuries provided a firm foundation for what came later on, not just during the Seljuk period, but the Ottoman as well. If it were not for an Armenian architect (Drtad), the dome of the mightly Hagia Sofia would probably not be standing today…about 900 years after he directed a restoration made necessary because of an earthquake. The point being that Anatolian Turkish history owes alot to the Armenian civilization that preceded it. Unfortunately, their ability to give credit to Armenians for anything was squashed during the Republican period of the 20th C, when virulent anti-Armenianism reached a zenith unmatched during any other period of Turkish history.
Karekin: “The 400 years that preceded the Ottoman empire were not completely filled with Seljuk rule” [over Armenia], but also with self-rule of several mighty independent Armenian principalities, such as, for example, the Bagratounis’.
MJM,you may want to check your historical chronology – the Bagratunis came to power just as Arab rule over Armenia came to an end, but Bagratuni rule ended as a result of the dual onslaught of the Greek Byzantines and then the arrival of the Seljuks shortly thereafter. The Bagratunis and Armenians of the day were not fans of the Greeks at all, who little by little encroached upon the Armenian kingdom. They were only too glad to help the Seljuks, if that meant an end to Greek domination…which it did.
Karekin, you seem to have a serious reading comprehension problem, thus there’s no need for me to check “my historical chronology.” I didn’t go that far as to dissect historical minutia with you in terms whom the Armenians were fans of: civilized Greek Byzantines or tent-living savage Seljuk nomads. I only responded to your misleading remark that “the 400 years that preceded the Ottoman empire were filled with Seljuk rule” by illustrating that those centuries were not totally filled with Seljuk rule: the Armenian Bagratid dynasty existed until the 11th century and the dynasty’s branch in Georgia at the end of the 11th century drove out the Seljuks and retook a part of Armenia which included Ani and Kars. During the Seljuk colonization many other independent Armenian principalities also existed, such as in Dzoraget, Zangezour, Sasoun, and Moks. Also, do please check you historical chronology: where did you get 400 years of Seljuk rule? Seljuk savages appeared at the gates of Armenia at the end of the 10th century and parts of Armenia remained under their rule until the beginning of the 13th century. I have hard time calculating this time span as 400 years; to me, it’s slightly more than 200 years.
Love the hisorical knowledge here…
Meanwhile, as Armenians bicker about dates and who is right regarding the history of conquests and long gone empires, Turks are standing on the shores of Akhtamar Island rubbing their hands together in anticipation of the tourists arriving on Sept., 19.
People, we need to focus here! How should we best respond to this upcoming event? How do we best serve the needs of the Armenian nation at this time?
boyajian,
What you are asking about is a no brainer. The Church has spoken on the topic and it is simple, “boycott.” Why do you insist on determining the so-called “best way to respond” on the topic when the Church has already spoken?
KS, a boycott is a partial response recommended by a part of The Church. It doesn’t close discussion on the realm of possible innovative responses to the larger question of how to get a step ahead of Turkey instead of only responding to its self-serving provocations.
Boyajian: I thought you’ve already made up your mind: you’re going, aren’t you? You also heavily tried to persuade others to go, so why would you still need the “best response to this upcoming event”? As for history insights, they are part of our Cause. Some individuals here, like Karekin, try effortlessly to justify rapprochement with the Turks by tilting our minds that Armenians were always subjugated to other nations, most recently, to the Seljuk-Mongol-Turk ilk. Proving them wrong is my obligation as an Armenian. You have time to object that? I thought you were already packing suitcases for a flight to Turkey for the Sept 19th event…
mjm you are too smart to be such a careless reader or for the need to resort to snarky remarks against a fellow Armenian. Check your assumptions.
I am quite familiar with Karekin and the need to correct some of his propaganda. More power to you. Also, I support historical insights and have engaged in and benefited from many. You purposely twist my intent.
No propaganda here, folks, sorry to disappoint you. Just facts….not created by me, I can assure you. No one is trying to discredit anyone or anything Armenian, though it appears there are plenty of Armenians who are quite willing to do that to their countrymen. But, if you want a more detailed history that is quite good, you can try Robert Hewsen’s Historical Atlas of Armenia, or try this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagratuni_Kingdom_of_Armenia
What if Etchmiadzin held a massive memorial service either at Dzidzernagaberd or the cathedral on Sept.19th instead and invited the international media? Or perhaps our Diocesan centers in America should organize such an event? Could this be effective in bringing attention to the Armenian response to Turkey turning Sourp Khatch into a museum that they control rather than restoring a church that the patriarchate of Istanbul controls?
What’s the rationale behind continuing to debate on this issue? Everything’s clear now. Catholicosate of Cilicia has made an unambiguous statement; their message to all Diasporan Armenians is crystal clear. Two mid-level clerics from Etchmiadzin are enough so that Turkish distortionists won’t say that Armenians have abandoned their heritage stolen from them by their Young Turk mass murderers.
Offering an idea or raising a question does not constitute a debate, in this case, simply an idea that is not contrary to Cilicia’s statement. This forum invites ideas as well as allows others to respond to ideas.
Boyajian.. I think that is a great idea…
Any media attention at this event or away from this event is absolutely necessary.. Media outlets that will tell the story… the correct story….the more noise this makes, the better for us because education is the key here.
Any regular American or a non-Armenian who does not knwo the history behind this church will not understand the purpose of us boycutting or attending.. a crystal clear story with the background of the church up till now needs to be told to the world.. and this needs to be done now until the day of… not sure why our media is soooo quite….
Gayane
mjm,
as always, I agree 100% with you.
One of the unfortunate byproducts of a creative and talented community such as the Armenians is that we , at critical times, have DIFFICULTY PROVIDING LEADERSHIP AND DISPLAYING A WILLINGNESS TO FOLLOW. This Aktamar situation is an excellent example of where the Armenian people should be looking to their church for leadership and they should be ready to follow.
So what have they delivered? The patriachate is essentially silent due to the political constraints and internal issues. The Mother See comes out publically in support of this event and the See of Cilicia does the opposite…essentially advocating a boycott.
So we will do what we tend to do….that is follow our parochial interests. We simply do not understand or value the power of unity. We don’t have an “in house” approach to our diiferences. We would rather let them play out publically… in a not so subtle competition for public approval. Aram I”s statement may be direct and strong, but in the absence of a unified position, its effect is greatly diluted. We have to have higher expectatons of our leaders.
I read relentless criticism.. some of which is justified… some of which is just do the populat thing. What about our church? The Armenian church always played a central role in the life of the Armenian nation. Our heritage and our faith are inseparable; yet we have such tolerance for the disunity of the church because it aligns with our local community behavior. For years , we have been walled off and sub-optimized. Aram I makes a statement and we respond because he “ours” Karekin II makes a statement and others respond similarly. yet few of us demand or more importantly pray that they
work as one unit publically … for the good of our nation.
When we started this dialogue, I felt the issue of Turkish manipulation verses
the Armenian Cause was the issue. As time has transpired, unfortunatley our disunity has become far too prominent. I pray for our strength in unity.
I can understand that many Armenians will not visit a country where their ancestors were killed, and also that many will not attend a once in a year religious service in a church turned into a museum by the unrepentant descendants of those responsible for the bloodshed. In this way I can understand Kiazer Souze and mjm. But the matter can also be seen according to the general experiences of political opposition and activism. In the first place, public protest will nearly always happen according to rules made by those in power and these rules may make the protest seem impotent and twisted to support the adversary. In many cases, this makes protesters prefer illegal protest, not to be associated with the power holders. This view has some merits and some drawback. To allow a demonstration against injustices may be construed as an admission of democratic attitude in those in power who are responsible for the injustice, but also for the permission to demonstrate.
Isnt the main question whether a large Armenian attendance in the ceremony in Sourp Khatch – or boycott – will strengthen the campaign for Turkey to go into the black spots in its history, admit and repair?
Now Harut Sassounian was – if I remember correctly – protesting against the Istanbul Armenian church leader, Karekin, I believe, attending the re-opening of the church/museum. But Karekin had earlier refused to attend if the opening was to be on april 24, which was the intention of the Turkish authorities. He said that by using this day the Turkish authorities were portraing the opening as an atonement for the Medz Yeghern, whereas in fact the Turkish authorities had not admitted anything. And the Turkish authorities backed down and changed the date. This can be taken as a sign of Armenian influence. Other examples might be cited. But would Harut Sassounian prefer this event never to have happened, would he prefer that the desecrated church should never be visited by Armenians at all? You can say that this would have been better because it would not have created any illusions about the Turks, and that Armenians would not have been lured into a trap in the form of a rotten compromise. On the other hand, there would have been no stage for actions like the youths who recently were thrown out because they sang and lighted candles,staging a quite effective demonstration of Armenian claims to the church. I can see the force of the boicott of the Cilician catholicosate, and that it is unfortunate for Armenians to be divided. However isnt it better to discuss the matter in terms of the general experiences of political protest and activism rather that accusing each others of not being Armenian?
Stepan,
I’m afraid you’re wrong. The leadership has been provided and a willingness to follow displayed. The government of the Republic and the Catholicosate of Cilicia have unambiguously denounced the event as a Turkish show that’d only benefit advancement of Turkey’s image as “religiously tolerant” state having throughout the country thousands of intentionally ruined, detonated, transformed into museums or sheepfolds architectural monuments and artifacts that belong to the civilizations that Turks have wiped out from the face of the earth. What other leadership do you want from a diasporan nation, a part of which lives in eastern Armenia and most of it scattered all over the world? There hardly can be any centralization under such circumstances unless all Armenians are declared citizens of the Republic, the two Catholicosates be unified as one Mother See, and our political parties come to understanding—at last—that they need to drop differences, unify, and serve one all-Armenian goal.
I can understand the motives behind the Mother See’s actions to dispatch two mid-level clergymen to Akhtamar: after all, if there’s no presence at all, sly Turks would interpret it as a sign of Armenians’ willingness to abandon their rich heritage in Western Armenia. As for the Armenian Patriarchate in Constantinople, come on, man, what can you possibly expect from this oppressed, Turkish government-bullied institution?
As far as points raised by you and Ragnar, until now I haven’t received a satisfying answer to my question repeated for the sixth time already. Why necessarily on the 19th? Why as a part of Turkish government-orchestrated event that they’d reap benefits from? Why in a church on top of which there’s no cross and a Turkish flag instead? Why inside a church where most probably a snout of Mustafa Kemal will be hanging? Why not on a day that we ourselves choose? Why not in the same or any other ruined or half-ruined Armenian church, monastery, town, district, village, house? Why not on our own will to pray inside or, if denied, outside a church? Why not on our own conditions, i.e. large groups of Diasporan Armenians and Armenians from the Republic wearing “Road to Home” or “Back to Home” shirts? Why not accompanied with the media reps that’d almost certainly air the pre-history of Armenians’ presence in their ancestral lands associated with our visits?
Why wouldn’t these actions strengthen the campaign for Turkey “to go into the black spots in its history, admit, and repair,” and only a large Armenian attendance in the ceremony in Sourp Khatch on the 19th would?
Ragnar Naess: I consider it cynical, just utterly cynical, to formulate the “main question” as to whether “a large Armenian attendance in the ceremony in Sourp Khatch–or boycott–will strengthen the campaign for Turkey to go into the black spots in its history, admit and repair,” when you know too well what’s happening in Turkey as we exchange comments: human rights activist Dogan Akhanli is imprisoned in Istanbul and a linguist, columnist, academic, and outspoken critic Sevan Nisanyan is facing a demolition order on his hotels because of his criticism of Turkey’s persecution of her minority citizens. How dare you to suggest that our attendance on Akhtamar would “strengthen the campaign for Turkey to go into the black spots in its history, admit and repair” knowing that Turkey’s own actions as we speak sharply contradict any such possibility? I consider such a statement as being in the realm of sheer cynicism. Sorry.
Will someone please explain to me – Why Aghtamar on Sept 17 and not Ani on April 24? At least at Ani there is no pretense at “restoration.” You will still have to pay turks at the entrance of land that is ours; you will still be confronted by a turkish flag and posters, but at least you will be bending your knee when and where you want. There is more than just one church to pray in at Ani; there is more room for large numbers of us; we are more able to control the event. It is a deeper part of who we are. Aghtamar is a small island. Holy Cross is the only church there. It is not large enough to accomodate more than a couple hundred people. Ani is more easily accessible from Yerevan. You would not have to start your trip in Istanbul. You could drop your bucks in Yerevan instead of turkey. my people were forced to obey by the turkish sword. I live in a democracy. I don’t obey turks. I’m busy with other things on Sept. 17.
It’s very unfortunate that in our need for genocide recognition, etc., Armenians find it necessary to endlessly demean another ethnic group. I can understand denouncing the Young Turks and the CUP and their policies, as well as those who continued them. But, believe it or not, we are all humans and deserve recognition as such. None is better than another. This is a big world, our pain (which is now 100 years old) is not bigger than that of those who are suffering around the world right now. If we want compassion, recognition, etc., then be prepared to give it yourselves, even if you find it painful. Yes, the CUP murderers wiped out 75% of the Armenian population in Anatolia and this was, without a doubt, one of humanity’s worst moments. But sadly, the world at large closed the chapter on the Armenian genocide a long time ago and has moved on – and forgets our history in the light of newer crimes and atrocities. Even my grandparents, who lost their land, homes, relatives and friends in Turkey, were able to move on. Why can’t you? I agree with those who say that being physically present at Akhtamar (or Ani, or Kayseri or even Istanbul) is a good thing, not a bad one. It reaffirms and honors the Armenian history of Anatolia for everyone in Turkey. In rejecting Akhtamar and its preservation – as a church or as a monument – it’s important to think about what you’re really objecting to and why. I think people are largely avoiding the central issue…which is that Akhtamar was saved from destruction and the risk of further degradation, which was the fate of many Armenian monuments in Turkey. At the very least, let’s be happy about that because no matter what anyone says, it is much better for Armenians and their history as a conserved monument than as a pile of stones.
Karekin,
I don’t like you insulance towards our Church. They have already spoken. It is their property to tend to not yours. The only thing that belongs to you is your identity and you will not be representing your identity by paying money to visit a museum with Kemal Attaturk’s picture at the altar.
Incorrigible Karekin – Aren’t you tired of repeating the same charades over and over again? Give us a break, will you?
None of the humans are better that another: OK, admitted. Armenians haven’t mass murdered and mutilated virtually whole Turkish nation, the Turks did it to Armenians, but we’re no better that the Turks. If no humans are better than another, why wouldn’t Turks apologize to Armenians? Aren’t they, too, not better that anyone else? Our pain (which is now 95 not 100 years old) can be considered bigger than that of those who are suffering around the world right now, in that based on the Turks’ mass extermination of Armenians the international term “genocide” has been coined and the world generally admits that had there been admittance of guilt and proper recognition of Turkish crime against humanity, there would have been no Holocaust of the Jews, or genocides of the Cambodians, Bosnians, Rwandans, and Darfurians. We don’t have to give compassion to an unrepentant murderer; the murderer has to offer an apology to the victim, this is how things work. The world at large didn’t “close the chapter on the Armenian genocide a long time ago and has moved on”: as lately as several months ago the nation of Sweden joined other nations in recognizing the Armenian genocide. Other nations and organizations have the issue on their agendas. An unrecognized atrocity brings newer crimes and atrocities, not the one that’s been forgotten. There’s no panacea for atrocities to reoccur, if the humanity forgets the previous ones. Your grandparents were able to move on because of maybe some peculiarities of their fundamental nature; mine were not, so were millions of other Armenian grandparents, parents, and contemporary youth, because the pain has become a part of our genetic memory. It can’t just fade away until we know that a perpetrator-nation has repented.
“Akhtamar was saved from destruction and the risk of further degradation, which was the fate of many Armenian monuments in Turkey.” Aren’t you ashamed of yourself? Who blew them up, deliberately ruined, desecrated, and transferred to mosques and sheep stables all these beautiful ancient monuments? Don’t you understand that Turks did external restoration for propagandistic purposes as the event on Akhtamar clearly demonstrates? And haven’t you seen piles of stones left from St. Karapet in Moush and hundreds of other magnificent structures in Armenian-populated provinces? Who did this to them? Eskimos? And you urge us to be “happy” with it? You should be ashamed of yourself …
Stepan, maybe this is what happened…
Etchmiadzin: “You know we are going to have to send someone to Aghtamar on the 19th. It is the politically prudent thing to do while we are still negotiating opening borders, etc.”
Antelias: “We understand the situation. Don’t worry, we will issue the press release stating that we will not attend this mockery and call on Turkey to restore the church to the Patriarchate in Istanbul.”
Etchmiadzin: “Good, that will cover the bases.”
Antelias: “Plus we are speaking up for the Patriarchate who are practically muzzled!”
Etchmiadzin: “Coming for sourj, Tuesday afternoon?”
“Armenians were always subjugated to other nations, most recently, to the Seljuk-Mongol-Turk ilk.”
I came accross above and it may be irrelevant now but just for those interested in historical accuracy and trivia, following may be of interest.
Battle of Malazgirt in 1071 is considered to be the event that opened the flood gates for these “barbarians” into Asia Minor, where suppposedly people lived happily under the Roman rule. In additon to various Muslim and Christian nations and tribes, Alp Aslan, the commander of the Seljuk army, also had a large number of Armenians fighting on his side. It seems your ancestors had a slightly different view of these barbarians.
A few days ago, it was the anniversary of the Battle of Ain Jalut, or “Spring of Goliath”, in 1260. Mongol armies were for the first time defeated in a battle. Some consider it one of those events that changed the course of history. Mamluks managed to stop this seemingly unbeatable force of nature somewhere near Palestine, but only after it laid to waste great civilizations, Abbasids and Eyyuibis. There were Christian Nestorian Turkish and Armenian armies under his command, helping him demolish much of Middle East, and bring an early end to the Islamic enlightment. In any case, again here the choice of your ancestors in choosing sides and allies seems to contradict your modern sensibilities.
mjm
How can discussing possible options be termed cynicism? Further, I do not understand why you on the one hand accept the sending by the Mother See of two clergyment to “prevent” a Turkish interpretation, and on the other hand advocate boicott. Does this make sense? How reconcile your lack of general belief in official Turkish versions and interpretations (a disbelief which I share to a great extent) with your idea that Turkish interpretations may be influenced by the attendance of two Armenian clergymen?
Ragnar Naess: It is not “discussing possible options” that’s been termed “cynicism.” It’s your suggestion that “a large Armenian attendance in the ceremony in Sourp Khatch–or boycott–will strengthen the campaign for Turkey to go into the black spots in its history, admit and repair.” I responded that based on what we see happening in Turkey as we exchange views, that you’re well aware of, large Armenian attendance cannot “strengthen the campaign for Turkey to go into the black spots in its history, admit and repair,” because these are unrepentant Turks and based on their conduct against the remnants of ethnic Armenians, or Kurds, or their own human rights activists they’ll always remain as such. If 500 years of their prison-of-nations-turned empire and 90 years of their fabricated republic didn’t change them, no one-time attendance of Armenians at a mocking event will. I don’t advocate boycott; I advocate presence of clergymen, but not crowds of people. It should be obvious that two clerics conducting mass vs. large crowds of Armenians will have different degree of impact on both Turkish domestic audience and international mass media coverage. Turkish interpretations of the attendance of two Armenian clergymen will have lesser effect and will leave lesser room for possible misinterpretations simply because the number of Armenians was small and they were all clergymen. For a one-day Christian mass Turks will get just one or two Armenian clerics. That simple.
Dear mjm,
For sure for those Armenians who are going to visit “Sourp Khatch” Church, will be a day of anxiety attacks and hopelessness, unless Armenians tranquilize themselves with Doxepin…Turkey will decorate the Church walls with blood color flags, and Ataturk picture on top of altar, if there is any, for Blessed Virgin Mary Picture!!
Murat would you mind providing the source of your quote?
mjm
thank you for your answer. I respect your opinion and I clearly see that attending the mass will not immediately change much. And I see the point about Armenians being divided on the issue.
However I am still puzzled why you say that I am cynical. My main point is that attendance may be one of many symbolic acts that will make Armenians and their claims visible in Turkey. And is not influencing Turks one of the goals? And as I tried to say, whether attending is meaningful or not must be judged in the context of how we organise fights for justice more generally. Must not a decision be anchored in a more general idea of how to further a cause? So that it can be discussed in terms of what actions give the most effect. Was it cynical to say this? Now I understand and respect your feelings, and I have learned much about how the genocide is still a living reality in Armenians, so maybe I simply should shut up because I cannot as an outsider make any ciontribution ? But since we actually are discussing it does not seem so.
I apologize if I offend your sensibilities, but again – you speak as if it is impossible to influence turks at all. I disagree with you in this, but again – why then the two clerics?
I’m not going to live my life in reaction to what is good or bad for Turkey. I don’t want to live my life as a simple stimulus and response creature pegged to Turkey. That is, what I chose to do or not do will not be in reaction to the perceived impact on Turkey. I am 4 generations removed from that part of the world. If I have an interest in my ethnic lineage and that interest takes me to an event in Turkey-that’s ok. It won’t seem OK for someone who on balance has punishing Turkey as a main focus of their life.
I apologize if I offended your sensibilities, Ragnar Naess, by using the word “cynicism” to describe your recent comment on possible parallels between “a large Armenian attendance in the ceremony in Sourp Khatch–or boycott–will strengthen the campaign for Turkey to go into the black spots in its history, admit and repair” and your first-hand knowledge of the fact that the Turkish government actually does everything to prevent and suppress any attempts at “going into the black spots in the country’s history.” I can now see that using the term “cynicism” was unnecessary. My apologies.
Harb: For an unidentified “someone,” who actually represents the prevailing majority of the Armenian nation, it’s not about “punishing” Turkey as a “main focus of their life.” It’s about restoring justice for the heinous crime against my nation. If tomorrow I receive an apology from the Turkish government for the actions of the Young Turk government that caused death of my relatives in Sassoun, I would no longer care about “punishment” as a “main focus of my life.”
I guess what you and I, as well as several other commentators among themselves, disagree with is that we don’t see the masquerade on Akhtamar island as a substantial step at rapprochement on the part of the Turkish government so that our attendance “may be one of many symbolic acts that will make Armenians and their claims visible in Turkey.” I’m certain that due to the Turks’ traditional distortion of any event that’d reveal the true history of their country and the crimes committed by their governments, coupled with the general reluctance of the world mass media outlets to look deeper into the causes of why an Armenian church—out of thousands of others—has been transformed into a museum; why it’s been dysfunctional after 1915; what happened to its parishioners; and where the families of worshippers inhabiting the Armenian-populated province of Van vanished, our attendance at the event in Holy Cross, in all likelihood, has little potential of furthering a cause, unless the world mass media outlets substantiate our attendance by making known to the world the answers to the questions that I posed. However, no commentator here displayed certainty as to whether these outlets would do that. Hence, under these circumstances, I think for a one-day mass in our own church Armenians should dispatch a one or two clerics, but not a large audience. We can argue ‘til the cows come home and each one of us might be right in his or her own mind. I only share what I feel and what my knowledge of the Turks’ behavior and proven record of unrepentance tells me. I don’t advocate anything.
Harb, I really appreciate your thoughts. I think most Armenians (and probably other minorities who have suffered under Turkish oppression) struggle to find their place on the continuum between feelings of hatred and vengeance against Turkey on one end and complete detachment from this history on the other. The balance is not as easy to find as you might expect. It depends a lot on how your family has coped with the tragedies and your own personal emotional make-up as well as your concept of right and wrong and fairness. Most Armenians I know do not hate Turks as much as they are angry that Turkey seems to be getting away with murder and a cover-up. That offends most people at the level of justice and basic human dignity. It is both an internal conflict and a societal conflict. If you choose to just accept the status quo and not struggle for a resolution to this obvious and glaring injustice, than what does that mean about your own self worth? Who are you when your ancestors lives and history are disposable and easily forgotten? And what kind of world are we part of when political and economic expediencies trump the moral imperative to stand up for the weak and oppressed amongst us?
Most Armenians distinguish between the average Turkish citizen and the acts of a corrupt government which has brainwashed it citizens to believe that the deportations and massacres of minorities during 1915-1923 due to Ittihadists/CUP policy were justified for “national security reasons.” Our fight is with powers that are for the most part unseen and purposely hidden behind figure heads and insincere rhetoric. This is a struggle that has to be fought on several levels at the same time. The movement to get governments and political and academic bodies to recognize the genocide is very important for putting pressure on Turkey from the outside. But I think it is also important to educate the Turkish citizenry so that they can put pressure on their government and judicial system from the inside. An Armenian presence inside Turkey that can assert our rights in a way that the average “oglu” can hear it and begin to question their own brain-washing is quite a challenge.
Hye, so says Harb (the Turk).
Manooshag
As I said, I’m quite happy that Akhtamar did not suffer the same fate as many other Armenian monuments in Turkey. That does not equate with being happy about the fate of Armenians in Turkey or with being happy about Turkey. Far from it. But, there’s little you or I can do to change those sad facts. Armenia’s borders have shifted constantly over the last 4000+ years. Perhaps they’ll shift again in the future, but we live for now, as we can’t change the past and have little impact on the future. In some ways, this is very much like being caught in the rain without an umbrella, and holding a grudge against the clouds as a result. We all have to learn to live with the rain in our lives and our histories. If you have a destination (whether that’s a physical place or a psychological space – such as happiness), you may need to walk thru some rain to reach it, but standing in the rain and crying about it doesn’t change the situation for the better. Harb’s points are well made. Don’t let your lives and your attitudes be ruled by Turkey or even by history, otherwise you will be continually depressed and unhappy, which isn’t good for anyone.
“There’s little you or I can do to change those sad facts,” says incorrigible Karekin. I agree. But there’s a lot a nation can do to restore justice for those sad facts. And I’m pleased to see that Armenians succeeded in keeping the genocide recognition issue on the agendas of many governments, organizations, prominent individuals, and academia. “Armenia’s borders have shifted constantly over the last 4000+ years.” I agree. However, whereas in the past they shifted as a result of wars and invasions, in the modern history, from 1915 to 1923 they shifted as a result of the most heinous crime against humanity committed by the Turks: the genocide. Big difference. But it’s not about shifting borders, it’s about our dignity as a nation that’s been trampled by barbarous crime. Our lives are not “ruled” by Turkey; now it’s our time to make Turkey follow our rules that are also the rules of the whole civilized world: repent and admit the guilt. Until that happens, we’ll be continually depressed and unhappy.
Boyajian, the quote was from another post here, maybe mjm. Others have also made statements to the effect as if Armenians were innocent and neutral bystanders as the Asia Minor was overun by Turks and Mongols.
The commentators are coming at this issue from several different perspectives and most likely from several different countries. There are some who perceive themselves as Armenians in exile. I can and do respect their dedication to our common ancestors and their commitment to righting the heinous injustices they suffered. They see the best interests of their children and future generations are served by regaining Western Armenia. Clearly, these folks ought to be investing their time, their energy and their lives in that pursuit. At the other end of the spectrum there are those who see themselves as Americans or French etc.. We see the best interests of our children as served by the economic and political vitality of the US. I’m in that camp-my nation is the USA. We see the US/Mexico border issues as having much more impact our lives and those of our children than the demarcation of the Armenian border. Please understand that doesn’t mean we are indifferent to what happens in or to Armenia. It does mean that we see the issues of Armenian policy and interest as most appropriately the province of the people of Armenia. It does mean that what is good or bad for Turkey is not a big swing factor in our calculus.
Murat, I meant your remarks. Where did you get the info?
Changing borders for 4000 years! Yes Karekin, and yet with all that change, we Armenians stayed, prospered, built, farmed, harvested, wrote, sang, invented, danced, fought, rebuilt, worshiped, and remained Armenian on those lands. What’s your point? In my opinion you only illustrate just how horrendous the crime of genocide is and why we Armenians owe it to our ancestors and all mankind to fight for the guilty to pay and help prevent this atrocity from happening to others. In a few short years, Turkey did what 4000 years of tumultuous history never accomplished. This should make you unhappy but also move you to take action, not succumb to depression.
Listen, typical Turk Murat: Scroll up to my September 1, 2010 post in response to Karekin’s post and re-read it two times to understand. In case you won’t succeed in understanding, here it is a sentence from my post in its entirety, from which you, in the berst sly Turkish tradition, have extracted a portion and presented it in a distorted fashion. Here’s what I wrote: “Some individuals here, like Karekin, try effortlessly to justify rapprochement with the Turks by tilting our minds that Armenians were always subjugated to other nations, most recently, to the Seljuk-Mongol-Turk ilk. Proving them wrong is my obligation as an Armenian.” That is that commentators try to tilt our mind by asserting falsely that Armenias were always subjugated to other nations, a stance that is historically wrong as I proved in my response. And here’s what you extracted from my comment and presented that as if I’ve stated it affirmatively: “Armenians were always subjugated to other nations, most recently, to the Seljuk-Mongol-Turk ilk.” Knowing you’re a Turks, such cheap, low-mentality tricks come to no surprise to Armenians. You only ridicule yourself and your country known to us as distortionist state. As for your further statement, and I quote: “Others have also made statements to the effect as if Armenians were innocent and neutral bystanders as the Asia Minor was overrun by Turks and Mongols.” Well, at least thank you for admitting that Asia Minor was “overrun” by Turks and Mongols, but here’s a distortion again. Asia Minor was actually invaded by Seljuks and then Mongols in the 11th-13th centuries AD, and the amalgamation of these two tent-living, horse-riding savage tribes laid a foundation for the emergence of the Turks. Therefore, to separate Turks from Mongols by saying “Asia Minor was overrun by Turks and Mongols” is laughable. Maybe you wished to say “by Seljuks and Mongols,” but erred, than it’s excusable. The worst centuries for Armenians in the course of our 4000 year-old history were the Seljuk-Mongol-Ottoman centuries. And the most resistance was shown to Seljuks, and being sandwiched by the Byzantines on the one side and Seljuks on the other, Armenian kings and princes had to maneuver between the two invaders in order to salvage their land. You don’t have to present the picture as if civilized Armenians were longing for the invasions of your nomadic forefathers, but having been unable to resist hordes of savages, they had to sometimes take sides to be able to play upon the differences between the Byzantines and the Seljuks. Turkish distortionism of history is well-known to us, as a matter of fact your republic is founded on sheer distortion that your governments brainwashed you for decades.As a result we have Murat on these pages.
mjm
thank you for your apologies, mjm.
Well of course Harb, we all want economic prosperity and security for what ever nation we live in and this is right. But take care not to lose sight of how interconnected the world is now. The undue influence that Turkey has on our policies and the State department should worry you as secularism gives way to Islamization of Turkish life and government and ultranationalist ideology.
Everyone seems to forget that pre-genocide, that is, pre-1915, there had not been an independent Armenia for about 600 years! Isn’t that something to cheer? Isn’t that something that should not be taken for granted? The last was the Cilician kingdom, that ended in 1375. It could be argued that today’s Armenia (as well as any other border changes in history) came about ONLY as a result of war and the dissolution of empires, not the generosity of some ruling power. And, in the most recent case, it was the combo of dismantling of the Russian/Soviet and the Ottoman empires which created space for the smaller parts to emerge. The reality is that during the 600 year Ottoman period, Armenians were provided with a relatively safe haven. Now, you may want to argue that fact, but while the overwhelming power of the Ottomans denied Armenians independent political freedom, it did allow other freedoms to grow without the worry of maintaining a government, an army, etc, etc, etc. Not the best outcome perhaps, but in that era, they had protection from many outside forces who wanted their land and transit routes, and would kill to get them. And, as everyone knows, when the elephants fight, the grass gets trampled. Best of all, Armenians did not live as slaves, as did most people of the world during those years, but as a respected millet because they provided a huge number of services and skills the ruling Ottomans were unable to offer. The ruling class focused on the military and running a government, while the minorities did everything else and provided the tax base to keep the entire machine running smoothly. Sadly, Karo has a fantasy that ‘we’ can force Turkey ‘to follow our rules’. Fat chance. Instead of indulging in such useless (and arrogant) thinking, why don’t we work hard to create the best possible world for people living in Armenia and Karabagh? You can spend alot of time throwing stones at others, but if your own people are suffering (the poverty rate in Armenia is out of control), why would you waste your time or your focus on trying to change someone else, especially when you have no plans to pick up and move to the heart of Turkey anytime soon? If you really care so deeply for Akhtamar or any other Armenian monument in Turkey, start a fund or an organization to collect money to maintain them. Many people would contribute and appreciate that effort, since that is our heritage. If you don’t like the Turkish govt doing it, do something yourself. Make an effort. Show an active interest instead of just complaining about the status quo. I can guarantee you that the Patriarchate does not have the money to do it on their own and would appreciate all the help it could get. Do something positive – because doing something for the larger community always helps people overcome depression and anger.
FYI – a correction is in order: in case you were wondering, the ‘cheering’ I refer to should be for the independent Armenia that came about after the genocide and the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union, not for the 600 years of Ottoman rule.
Boyajian, what I have stated are simple facts, easily availabe if you google or wiki. In fact, wiki, a reliable source of Armenian propaganda, is a good starting point. Now, I can make a few cynical remarks about text books and such, but I will refrain. There is this myth that Armenians were hapless victims of Turkic AND Mongol invasions. In our modern nationalistic interpratation of 1000 yr-histories we tend to ignore certain realities, since it conflicts with national myths, that kingdoms and nations did whatever was expedient. All are prone to such notions, but I noticed, Armenians more than others. None of these large armies were uniformly composed of one ethnicity or religion etc. It did not matter at the time at all. Alp Aslan’s army was heavily fortified by Armenians and other groups, who benefited from his conquests. Similarly, Mongols did not just use pure-bred Mongols in their armies. That is what made them succeed, ability to work with locals. There were opportunities and rewards for those siding with the winners. In any case, this is truly ancient history, it is beyond ridiculous to try to judge history from such a distance, but here we are, I felt the need to point these out.
Can anyone tell me the benefit of paying my hard earned money to feed Turks by visiting a museum that has the picture of a homosexual pedophile (kemal Ataturk) at the altar?
I am dieing to know.
Harb — No doubt, of course you’re free to “see see the best interests of our children as served by the economic and political vitality of the US,” and [that] you’re in that camp-my nation is the USA.” As such, aren’t you bothered by the fact that our nation, while portraying herself as a beacon of democracy, morality, and human rights all over the world, is crawling behind such totalitarian, undemocratic countries as Russia or such minor world players as Uruguay in recognizing the Turkish crime that the humanity has termed as “genocide” based on Turkish extermination of Armenians? Don’t you feel disgrace for every other US presidential candidate who admits the fact of and pledges himself to recognize the genocide, but in a cowardly fashion retreats from his position after becoming president? Aren’t you irritated by the fact that a minor nation of Turkey can have influence on America’s moral standing on the human rights issue, such as the heinous crime against humanity: the genocide? I’d be greatly bothered, and not because I’m an Armenian, but because “America the Beautiful America the Great” is, essentially, subservient to pressure of a country that owes America its very existence, military prowess, and national security. I feel ashamed when Russian president Medvedev bowed at the Genocide Memorial in Yerevan, while the US president plays “ring around the rosy” with the issue. I really do.
KS, you do realize that no one is asking or expecting you to go to Akhtamar, only to be less harsh in your judgment of those who feel they have good reason to go. Your reason for boycotting is valid and you’re entitled to hold to your position without feeling that others are trying to change your mind. We don’t all have to think alike to respect each others decisions.
Now don’t you think it’s time to stop baiting an argument with others about this?
Karekin you say:
But sadly, the world at large closed the chapter on the Armenian genocide a long time ago and has moved on
EXCUSE ME? Are you living on planet Mars Karekin? Do tell us as to how you came to a conclusion that the world has closed its chapter on the Genocide… is it written somewhere? did someone tell you? did you talk to Turkey’s President or Foreign Minister??? …. .. WOW…on the contreray Karekin, the world IS MORE AWARE and works at her hardest to get recognition and spread the education of her FIRST Genocide…. Are YOU even an Armenian??? I wonder sometimes….
Karekin you say:
which is that Akhtamar was saved from destruction and the risk of further degradation, which was the fate of many Armenian monuments in Turkey. At the very least, let’s be happy about that because no matter what anyone says, it is much better for Armenians and their history as a conserved monument than as a pile of stones.
So we should be happy that our OWN church is now a museum for the sake of the argument.. that it was saved from being pile of stones? ARE YOU our of your mind??? So you think a church turned into a museum with Turkish flag flying on it, their ugly ass Ataturk’s picture hanging inside our sacred church wall and WITHOUT A Cross is a happy moment???? So you think we should kneel and kiss their feet for saving our church?? Should we send our thankful and heartfelt messages to the Turkish govt for doing us a favor for ruining our history and our ancient church???? is that what you are suggesting??? just so you know.. TO ME, having our church turned into a museum is AS BAD as having pile of stones…
….
Karekin you say:
But, there’s little you or I can do to change those sad facts.
Well.. i don’t know about you but i do as much as i can to change those sad facts.. with whatever i can and i will NEVER give up…. but how i see you Karekin is this: someone who says forget history, move on and be happy with what we have… DEAD WRONG.. it is unfortunate that we have Armenians like you…. Turqera heriq chein, we have Armenians who try to stir the matter in the wrong direction and try to convince the rest of us that we should forget and forgive.. all i say to that Karkin: OHH..HELL NO.. you may do that but don’t preach to me to see your point because you are WRONG…
Karekin you say:
Don’t let your lives and your attitudes be ruled by Turkey or even by history, otherwise you will be continually depressed and unhappy, which isn’t good for anyone.
Well i guess i am willing to live my life depressed and unhappy cause until TUrkey comes to realization with her past and what happened by showing signs of democracy and humanity..i, and hoping many many more like me minus you of course will continue to fight for what is right and just for the Armenia and her people… oh and just so you know.. to me…history IS OUR lives and attitude.. duhhhhhh… without history, without your ancestry, YOU won’t fully exist…
I don’t know about many, but I get dumbfounded when I read your comments Karekin… simply, and utterly dumbfounded…
Gayane
I have to agree with Mjm…..
I would also love to see answers to Mjm’s questions as it will give me a better undertanding of this matter..this is not to say that those who want to go are wrong.. on the contrary, everyone has a choice and need to follow their instinct and heart… I have personally expressed from the start that I don’t support in going to this event but I won’t put down or dislike those who decided to go…that said..
Why necessarily on the 19th? Why as a part of Turkish government-orchestrated event that they’d reap benefits from? Why in a church on top of which there’s no cross and a Turkish flag instead? Why inside a church where most probably a snout of Mustafa Kemal will be hanging? Why not on a day that we ourselves choose? Why not in the same or any other ruined or half-ruined Armenian church, monastery, town, district, village, house? Why not on our own will to pray inside or, if denied, outside a church? Why not on our own conditions, i.e. large groups of Diasporan Armenians and Armenians from the Republic wearing “Road to Home” or “Back to Home” shirts? Why not accompanied with the media reps that’d almost certainly air the pre-history of Armenians’ presence in their ancestral lands associated with our visits?
Thank you
Gayane
Harb you said:
It won’t seem OK for someone who on balance has punishing Turkey as a main focus of their life.
Boyajian and Mjm said it beautifully…. I want to tell you that my main goal and focus is not to “punish” Turkey but to bring awareness, and recognition of a history that has been and being distorted by Turkey and her manipulative and bastards state…not only that.. the govt has been injecting the poison in her citizens turning them into zombies who think only one way: TURKEY is not capable of horrible Genocide, and it is Armenians who started this whole bloodbath.. now.. that said…one of our main focus needs to be to break that cycle and that is what I intend to do with the help of millions of other Armenians who care and love their country, history and culture..
and i believe..you should too…just my opinion… take it what is worth.
Harb you said:
We see the best interests of our children as served by the economic and political vitality of the US. I’m in that camp-my nation is the USA.
I agree with this statement but ONLY if: No matter where I live, no matter who I meet, no matter who I marry, no matter what govt I support, i am an ARMENIAN first and foremost.. and THEN that country’s citizen..I strongly disagree with those who say “well i am detached from my roots because for whatever reasons and these matters don’t really mean much to us here….” I say the only time you detach yourself from your ancestry, your culture, your history is when you stop caring where you came from and what race you represent… my heart, and nation is ARMENIA… my country I live in is US…that said… Karo posed a great argument to your statement Harb.. EXCELLENT comment by Karo…Please reread it…
Harb you said:
It does mean that we see the issues of Armenian policy and interest as most appropriately the province of the people of Armenia.
I am sorry but i have to disagree with this… Even though your statement is partially accurate, I have to say that Armenian issues should and need to be for ALL OF ARMENIANS.. not just people of Armenia… We are part of one nation, one culture, one history… to say that what goes on in Armenia should not be imposed or bothered by people living in US, France, Argentina, Peru, Spain, Israel, Moscow or Japan is very selfish statement.. I sort of understand where you are coming from and being 4 generation detached from your roots you still have an ARmenian blood running through your veins.. and these issues should interest and affect you in some way… ESPECIALLY when what you consider Armenian issues is not just Armenian issues.. Boyajian said it absolutely beautifully and she is 100% correct. …
Well of course Harb, we all want economic prosperity and security for what ever nation we live in and this is right. But take care not to lose sight of how interconnected the world is now. The undue influence that Turkey has on our policies and the State department should worry you as secularism gives way to Islamization of Turkish life and government and ultranationalist ideology.
Don’t ever lose sight of what you represent and where you came from no matter where you are..and no matter what economic and political vitality you follow…..that is just my two cents..
Thank you
Gayane
Karekin,
You said:”Everyone seems to forget that pre-genocide, that is, pre-1915, there had not been an independent Armenia for about 600 years!”
Yes, Armenia was ruled by the Ottoman Empire for 600 years, therefore it could not have been independent during those years… and your point?!!!!
Guess what:
Albania, Bulgaria, Greece, Serbia, Hungary, Rumania, Yugoslavia, Syria, Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt and parts of Iraq were also not independent for 600 years under the Ottoman rule. The Empire was falling apart, nationalism, human rights, ethnic and civic rights were burgeoning and most of the above countries were handed their independence. Some did not have designated borders until then. What happened to Armenia? Its quest for independence was regarded as treason and its lands were taken over by massacring its people! You are right about one thing, we were the “trusted millet”, who patiently waited for the Ottomans to grant them their freedom, we depended on the whims of an empire that carried out massacres against our people even before 1915, instead of relying on ourselves, strengthening our people and taking charge of the protection of our people, monuments and lands. By the way, Spain was ruled by the Arabs for 781 years, even longer in comparison! That did not stop the Spanish people to demand their freedom back.
In the past and now our main weakness has been the pursuit of personal gains and comfort rather then pursuit of the dream of a homeland such as the Jews. If more and more of us will only concern themselves with their day to day living, forget about their homeland and just adopt the country they are living in such as Harb, then we do not deserve a homeland, and what happened to us in 1915 was partly to be blamed on this nonchalance. While Russian Jews who settled in Ottoman Turkey refused to become Turkish citizens, we willingly helped out the Ottomans in all aspects of their nationhood, earned the nickname of the “faithful millet”, enlisted as soldiers, gave up our weapons when we were asked, and were butchered very easily when the time came. Where was the prudence of our leadership?
Murat,
You said:”Alp Aslan’s army was heavily fortified by Armenians and other groups, who benefited from his conquests. Similarly”. You do not have to go that far back!… there were thousands of Armenian soldiers in the Ottoman army, fighting along side the Turks during WWI. The Armenians, again the “faithful millet”, hoped and waited for the Ottomans to eventually grant them their free nation peacefully. What did the CUP do? It ordered all those Turkish Armenian soldiers killed by their own Turkish colleagues… A baby will get this: THEY DID NOT WANT TO LET GO OF OUR LANDS!
Shame on anyone who makes a mockery of the History of Armenia. Shame on anyone who marginalizes what a horrendous crime it is to wipe out an entire ethnic population in order to take over their lands. Yes, wars come and go and lands get conquered, but unarming a nation, massacring its population, taking over its lands and wiping out all traces of its existence is the most cowardly way of conquering a land. Refusing to acknowledge the truth, keeping all that’s been stolen, denying justice so that not a penny is paid in reparations and not an inch of land is given back, is lower than low…. it has no word to describe it!
Harb,
You said that you were four generations removed American Armenian. Since the Genocide happened only about three generations ago, I am guessing that your immediate family has not been victimized. I hope I am right, and you have been spared of that kind of family history. Your position on this is something that the Turks envisioned will eventually happen to the Armenians, as their Genocide continues to be denied and they settle more and more in other countries. What happened to you will happen to the majority of us down the road as the years go by. This is exactly what was intended by the Genocide, and I guess it was successful in your and many other Armenians lives… It was very easy for two empires to decide among themselves how they wanted to draw our borders… there was no people to object! However, our numbers have grown again, and many of us do have legal matters to settle with Turkey. There is new momentum in exposing the truth. We owe that to our ancestors. We can’t allow the Turks to succeed in annihilating our people, by treating our ancient treasures, churches and monuments as archaeological interests.
Be a proud American, but also be proud and happy that in addition to that you carry in you the blood of one of the oldest people on the face of the earth. Many Americans who have become part of the “melting pot” would die to have a background as rich as yours.
This is why I have great respect for the way the Kardashians promote the idea of being Armenian, and they are only half Armenian!
Excellent Katia jan..Apres.. well said….
Gayane
Dear Gayane,
Person like Karekin either has a Turkish blood or he is paid “historian” by Turks to use a name like KAREKIN……
Karekin, my blood line do no go through Genocide of Turkey, but I feel “Genocide of my people” inside my vein and soul… it is not “forgettable” or “ignorable” and I am not under influence of the world politics, about the “truth of Armenian Genocide”….
Ok Karekin, I read another post of yours where you explained why you mentioned the fact that Armenia was not independent for 600 years. I understand what you were trying to say. Yes, we should be very grateful that we now have an independent Armenia that we dreamt about for so long. This smaller version of our nation was kept through the sacrifice of then destitute Genocide survivors and refugees who took up arms and defended the remnant of their country with all their might in the battle of Sardarabad. Turkey not only had massacred us, but openly moved its armies on Yerevan in to finish us off. The reason why the Armenian Genocide was supported by Turkey’s ally Germany was because of the Pan Turkic dream that was going to join Turks with their brothers the Azeris and open the roadonto India to form a new empire with all sorts of economic and geopolitical promises. And lo and behold, we were smack in the middle of this territory, and preventing this Pan Turkic expansion.
Gayane jan, absolutely excellent post, bravo!
Harb,
I want to know how you feel as an American about the fact that the US government, the world leader in human rights, continuously avoids acknowledging the Armenian Genocide in order to protect its Caucasus interests, even though it has in its national archives the most damning documents on the Genocide?
Also, since you are American first and foremost, did you know the following facts (and if you did, how do you feel about them?):
1. The Armenian Genocide was openly condemned in the US as it was happening. The American newspapers covered all the atrocities, and the Americans raised money for the starving Armenians.
2. The American President, Woodraw Wilson, promised he will push for the return of the Armenian lands back to the Armenians after the war, and did just that in the Treaty of Sevres. All six of the Armenian Villayets (that includes mount Ararat, Lake Van, Akhtamar island and the Holy Cross church we are discussing here) were awarded to the Armenians. The sad reality was that most of the Armenian leaders were killed and the population was down by 60%,… how were they going to reclaim these lands when thousands were still dying of hunger and disease?
3. Ataturk negotiated his way out of the Treaty of Sevres by holding many negotiations, including the keeping of the Armenian Villayets in exchange to a percentage of Iraqi oil revenues to the US government (the US Secretary of State back then was the CEO of the largest American Oil company and he struck this deal).
4. Injirlik, the present American base in Turkey, sits on an Armenian property whose deeds we still possess. How do you feel about the Turks making money out of leasing this Armenian property to the Americans?
Karekin,
If all human beings are born equal, than why did the Jews deserve the justice due to them and the Armenians do not? Were the 1.5 million human beings or flies? How is it that rules of justice and civility apply to the rest of the world and not to Turkey? We would not be vilifying the Turkish State if it had done the decent thing and acknowledged the wrong doing of its ancestor instead of denying the Genocide victims and their descendants the justice, recognition and reparations due to them. How are we not to vilify a state that hopes to literally get away with murder and desecration of history?
Some details and clarifications on my previous comments:
1. The Sevres Treaty was signed on August 10, 1920, and it said that Erzrum, Van, Bitlis and Trabizon should be incorporated to the Republic of Armenia. While Wilson was contemplating on drawing the southwestern borders of Armenia, the Turks attacked the Republic of Armenia in September 1920, after having signed the Treaty of Sevres.
2. In the earlier “Reform Measure” of 1914, Germany and Turkey on one side and Russia representing the Entente powers and the Armenians on the other side had named the six provinces of Erzrum, Van, Bitlis, Trabizon, Harput, Diarbekir and Sivas as the “Armenian Vilayets”.
3. Charles E. Hughes who was a counsel (not CEO) with the US Standard Oil Company, pushed for the Lausane Treaty once he became the US Secretary of State. He pushed for the interests of the Standard Oil company, by negotiating away the four Armenian provinces awarded to the Armenians in the Treaty of Sevres. The deal secured the US Standard Oil company shares of Mosul oil revenue, as well as oil in the Armenian provinces of Erzrum, Van, Bitlis and Trabizon.
In defense of Americans, 42 out of 51 of the US states have officially acknowledged the Armenian Genocide, and the congressmen who voted against the recent Armenian Genocide Resolution did not deny the Genocide, they just said that it will not be politically correct at this time to officially acknowledge it.
Most Armenians do not vilify regular Turkish citizens. We cannot blame them, because they have been brainwashed by State propaganda… their alphabet was even changed to obscure their history. The Genocide was mainly concocted by the CUP regime to satisfy its PanTurkic aspirations. Many Turkish governors refused to take part in the Genocide and were either demoted or assassinated. I owe my life to the Turkish neighbors who saved my grandmother’s life by claiming that she was their daughter.
We understand that no price can be put on our loss as a nation, in resources, lands, farms, businesses, bank accounts, historical monuments, churches, fortresses, human lives and everything that we could have potentially become as a people had we not endured this horrific crime. But a recognition and apology by the perpetrator can be a good start. Had Turks and Armenians parted in a civilized manner… who knows? They might have now evolved into allies… we have after all a lot of history in common.
Katia, you know i agree with you absolutely. I’m glad you included the info about the US oil interests trumping justice for Armenians in the abandoning of the Treaty of Sevres. US State department has its own skeletons in the closet that emerge when the truth regarding justice for the genocide is explored. France, Russia and Britain also had their hands in the pot.
I don’t blame people like Harb for the position they take. It’s a coping mechanism in the face of injustice when we feel we can do nothing about; probably one that many of our down-trodden grandparents experienced and unwittingly passed on through the generations. “Let go of the past. Focus on health and prosperity here for yourself and your family. Be grateful you are now in the land of opportunity. Thank God you were spared. Move on.”
But Harb, times are different now. Armenians are not down-trodden refugees. We are a strong, educated and wealthy group many of whom willingly take up the fight that their ancestors could not; not out of sheer hatred or vengeance but out of a sense indignity and a commitment to right a wrong. It is a modern day David and Goliath battle and every Armenian Christian knows how that story ended and should draw courage from it. I am in that camp.
Karekin — “There had not been an independent Armenia for about 600 years.” So…? And there had been no independent Jewish state for 2000 years. And there had been no independent Serbia, Montenegro, Albania, Romania, Bulgaria, Hungary, for roughly 500-600 years, too. And there had never existed such nation-states as Iraq, Pakistan at all, but now they exist. WHAT’S YOUR POINT? What do you want Armenians to become? Brain-dead, spineless, memory-lacking, inactive, motionless, justice-undemanding creatures? Bury our civilizational memory, our genetic memory, our pain, our pride, our 4000-year old ancestral lands and culture, our generational connectivity? Become more resembling sheep than human beings?
Boyajian: Clearly, myself and all of my friends are in that camp, too. “We are few, but we are Armenians…”
I believe the issue of going to Akhtamar is now closed: Mother See of Etchmiadzin has spoken against sending clergymen for a divine liturgy because it’s absurd and blasphemy for Christians to conduct a mass in a “museum” that has no cross on it. Hence, we now have government of the Republic, Catholicosate of Cilicia and Mother See rejecting to participate in a Turkish masquerade. If Patriarchate in Constantinople sends clerics, that’d be OK for me. But Turks, I’m sure, will get the message, and hopefully learn a lesson, in light of the absence of major Armenian government- and spiritual leadership and large crowds of worshippers.
I part company with many on this site on a couple of few fundamental points.
One, I am an American first.
Two, the people of Armenia need to drive the domestic and foreign policy of that country to maximize their welfare and the development of their country.
Three, I can’t support the calls for sacrifice on the part of the people of Armenia by the diaspora. The most ardent champions for sacrifice seem to live in comparatively safe and well removed venues.
These fundamentals of perspective result in much different positions on almost every question that confronts the Armenian community. To some, this makes me a person who has disavowed his heritage.
I see myself as someone who wants the country of Armenia to develop into a viable state, where the rule of law prevails, and democratic governance prevails. This may mean that the country of Armenia is the prime focus and not the genocide or reclamation of Western Armenia.
I would love to see Etchmiadzin commission a small scale replica of Sourp Khatch be built complete with cross, place it in Republic square and call all Armenians to attend an open air mass remembering the Armenians and historical churches lost due to the genocide.
to mjm:
It is extremely unfortunate but many Armenians have already booked to go. They have put down their money in order to pray, not just in any museum, but in one with the turkish flag and a large photo of a genocidal mass murderer smirking down on them. As well, many, if not most, of them will now have to pay to sleep and eat in turkish homes with descendants of those who pillaged our people and drove them out of their homes before murdering them. The turkish govt has screened all these bed and breakfast homes to make sure that none of them have any Armenian ancestors. Don’t go looking for 3 star accommodations. Since most people will end up praying outside on the thin grass, I recommend they take their own foam pads to kneel on and umbrellas to pray under. Take a portable potty with you unless you have an extremely strong bladder. I doubt they have installed flush toilets, but they may have dug a few more holes. Bravo, bravo, bravo,to the heads of our churches who are boycotting. Let us show our gratitude for their wisdom and leadership by sending a much needed donation to them. I too, can understand the Istanbul church having to go. Their lives are already difficult in this country that wants to get into the EU. If you want to know how difficult it can be for an Armenian in turkey, read today’s Armenian Weekly article, “Nisanyan to sue turkey at the european court,” and take note of the 50 year jail sentence.
Exactly, Katia: Armenians’ psychological detachment from genocide recognition cause, as their genocide continues to be denied and they settle more and more in other countries, is what “the Turks envisioned would eventually happen to the Armenians.” But guess what: they grossly miscalculated the workings of genetic memory, our capabilities at survival, ability to keep our memories alive and ability to never cease efforts at restoring justice. I’m thrilled to see hundreds of thousands of youths going to the Genocide Memorial in Yerevan with rightful indignation expressed on their faces, as well as millions of young people in the Diaspora fighting for justice for Armenians in the countries they settled in. Of course, there are many assimilated Armenians like Harb, but virtually everything in the history of a nation is being accomplished by its best and brightest. It gives me pride to see my children protesting in front of a Turkish consulate even though no one in the family ever bred hatred towards the Turks. I’m proud because their indignation was formed mostly as a result of their genetic attachment to their great grandparents’ fate and also as a result of their readings into genocide literature and Internet by their own initiative. It means something reverberates in their souls, something that’s distinctively inner, hard to explain even by themselves.
Perouz: Obviously, it was expected that there’d be those who’d book to go. I doubt there’d be “many” of them at the event, though. Regardless, I’m pleased that our leadership has expressed unity on the issue. That’s our major achievement, as well as the major message for the Turks. I pray that their absence will be noticed by the media more than the attendance of a few Armenians.
Hye, since so many have planned to attend the Sunday, September 19th, Holy Cross Church (Turk museum)
– why not have the Armenian religious observances held outside and surrounding Holy Cross Church… .since the innards bear evidence of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation… celebrating the killers of Armenians as the heroes of the Turkish nation.
– why not have the Armenians all across the world, our Armenian diasporas,(and all others who would want to join us) to celebrate on this date, together, outside our churches in tribute to the fact that Holy Cross Church at Aghtamar, is now a Turkish museum… and, in our pain, we all, across the world join with those at Aghtamar through all 24 hours of the day – in our prayers for all peoples lost to Genocides, to pray too, for the civilized nations of the world to seek to work together to end the cycle of Genocides… to end the killing of innocents – forever,,,
Bringing those guilty to justice will deter despots whose ongoing use of Genocides to gain their convoluted goals via eliminating humans – using mans’ inhumanity to humans (not even wars) but violating Armenian lives from the 1890s until today, 2010…
Too, let us use this date to speak out for the ending of all Genocides by asking the civilized religions and peoples of like minds of the world to join with us in this observance of Sunday, September 19th… all across the world to end the cycle of Genoicdes… the guilty brought to justice. Manooshag
Harb, I agree with points 2 and 3 in your comment above. I believe these are sound fundamentals, but I also believe that the interests of the Republic of Armenia and the achievement of justice for the genocide aren’t mutually exclusive. It’s a matter of balance and RA has priority in calling the shots. But diasporan Armenians have a vested interest as well as actual legal claims to land in Turkey. They have a right to pursue these.
As far as your first point regarding being American first, I can’t say that I completely agree with this. It’s not that I am unpatriotic, but I look at my American citizenship as an accident of my birth. A fortunate one; I’m glad to live here! I want the best for this country, I say the pledge, but I am not a flag waver. My parents were immigrants and most of my relatives still live in Armenia and Europe and I feel very connected to my roots. It’s more like a split allegiance; one that is sometimes quite conflicted, especially when my country of birth fails to support Armenia but sides with Turkish interests instead.
I’m puzzled, Harb: Why then you chose to comment in a discussion forum that deals with the Armenian Cause, i.e. the Cause of ALL Armenians: whether in the Republic, or Artsakh, or communities worldwide? You might as well chose to continue living in comparatively safe and well removed venues, why bother? Millions of other Armenians, whether or not they consider themselves Americans of New Zelandians first, will continue advancing the Cause for the Armenian nation. If you choose not to be one amongst others who dedicate time, nerves, and resources for the Cause, then why emerge on these pages at all? Continue to be proud for the country that pursues double standards in the issues of moral values and human rights while pounding its chest for being a pioneer in these fields. What can I say? Don’t worry, be happy…
Harb,
If you are American first, then why are you on this site? Why are you reading the Armenian Weekly instead of the New York Times?
There is an underlying hint of disgust in your post. You seem to be ashamed of the way the Republic of Armenia is being run, and you seem to say that the Diasporan Armenians are hypocrites.
It seems you are inpatient with the pace with which the burgeoning Armenian Republic, which happens to be blockaded on both sides with arch enemies, is advancing toward let’s say the level of the United States, which happens to reign free from sea to sea. The corruption in Armenia has not evolved into the modern day sophisticated Enron, AIG and Bernie Madoff models which might be more palatable for you. There is corruption everywhere, especially in a newly formed country. You are right, a lot must be changed and improved in Armenia, but nothing can be changed if its people is indifferent and uninvolved.
You have chosen a 300 year old “Melting Pot” which is being run by major companies and interests over your 4,000 year old history laden nationality. You want Armenia to be strong, then get involved. If not,… than have a great “American” life!
I see my American citizenship as a privilege. I believe in the American Constitution and the American dream, which allows everyone to be proud of who he is. I fear the US has veered very far from the vision of its founding fathers, however, I am grateful for all the equal human rights that I enjoy in this country. But my heart belongs to Armenia. I am proud to be an Armenian!
By the way, you did not answer the questions I asked you… maybe you feel they are beneath you, coming from a Diasporan… And oh yes, if someone stole an American’s house, bank accounts, family herlooms and treasures, doesn’t this American have the right to sue for his stolen property? And let’s say someone killed this American’s entire family, don’t you agree that the legal system allows him to get justice and go after the criminal? That is exactly what the Diasporans who are the descendants of the orphans of the Genocide are doing. How is this not our right? And who are you to decide that we should not pursue justice? Again, I am glad that the Genocide has not touched your family directly…
Everyone has the right to pave his own road, I am glad that millions have not chosen the road you took. You can always make a U turn! Look at Kirk Krikorian… he is the embodiement of the American dream. He had not given an interview in two decades, and he just consented to give an interview in Yerevan magazine. And what did he say:”I have always been proud to be Armenian”. He has not let the mishaps in Armenia deter him from helping out as much as he can, because he knows that it takes resiliency and dedication to put a new country in the right path. Nothing will improve with criticism alone.
Manooshag, i think your idea is excellent. Now that the Armenian Church has a united position, they should direct all parishes in the world to say special prayers on the 19th for the return of Holy Cross to the Armenian Church as well as other historic sites( a public campaign over Ani is not far away). In parallel, our political capability(ANC, AAA ) should be focused on bringing public attention to this matter. We must mount a sustained effort to resolve this matter and use it to show the connection to the core issues(Genocide regcognition and reparitions).
I’m sorry, but I really don’t understand 1) the insinuations that there are some sinister (aka, Turkish) links or forces that are influencing my thoughts since there is nothing of the sort and 2) the refusal to accept the tides of history, which admittedly have not always been kind to Armenians. It is one thing to be patriotic/nationalistic, but to reject historical outcomes just because you don’t like them and hope them to be different is really another kettle of fish. It is called fantasy. Aren’t Armenians allowed to think outside the rather restrictive idealogical, nationalistic box? Once again, I’m certain none of you actually live in today’s Armenia and have no plans whatsoever to move, lock, stock and barrel, to western Armenia/eastern Turkey. In fact, for hundreds if not thousands of years, Armenians have, either by force or by choice, left their homeland to explore the world. In many ways, being Armenian might actually be more a state of mind than a physical place. For most Armenians, it is a virtual ethnicity that does not require anyone to even step foot on Armenian soil…let alone live there. So, why the fuss about territory you and most Armenians will never live on anytime soon? Yes, eastern Turkey was the Armenian heartland for 4000+ years…no argument there. That is undisputable. But, as a result of many nasty variables, most out of our control, Armenians were driven out by non-natives. And yes, this was a truly horrible outcome after so many millenia…I get that…I really do get that. My entire family had lived there since very ancient times, and all was lost. Lacking both an army and a population that could fight back effectively, not to mention diplomatic setbacks, it’s hard to see how a new Armenia in eastern Anatolia could have come about, except in our dreams and wishes. The world was against us and that’s a tough place to be, especially if you’ve already been decimated by genocide. This is why I’m thankful for today’s Armenia, and want to preserve it, as well as for what appear to be positive changes in today’s Turkey. We need to deal w/ the world as it is, not as the fantasy we want or wish it to be. If Armenia is to survive, it will need all the help we can give it. It does not need to antagonize a powerful neighbor, nor can it afford to. It does need to consolidate its reunification w/ Karabagh, if for no other reason than to compensate for the loss of sovereignty over old Armenia. You know, not that long ago, native American tribes were forcibly removed from many places on the east coast of the US and relocated to areas in the west. These deportations cost millions of lives and decimated native American culture in many areas. In similar fashion, we are the true natives of Turkey who were rejected by a small group of newcomers (some of who were not even Turkish at all), who wanted to steal land, resources and control. If we could not prevent that 900, 600 or even 100 years ago…what makes you think we – a truly dispersed people – can do it now, on land where we have virtually no presence at all? As I said, I understand nationalism very well, but fantasy – on a serious subject like this – I do not.
BRAVO KATIA JAN.. apres…
Harb.. i am sorry but i feel ashamed of you… yes.. i am.. I guess you did not really pay attention to my statement:.. no matter where i live, no matter what economic and political vitalities I follow, no matter what languages I speak, no matter what citizenship I carry, I am an ARMENIAN first and foremost…it is my duty to fight, and protect what is ours and never lose ties with my motherland and my heritage… my heart bleeds when I meet or read about Armenians who are indifferent and care less what is going on … just heartbreaking.. i just want to take them and shake them sooo hard to wake them up from their dreamland.. to melt the ice that surrounds their heart and brain and bring them back to what they are: ARMENIANS first and then French, Argentinians, Spanish, Russians, ect…i just hope that we don’t have too many Harbs in this world even though I know they exist…i hope the flame of love for culture, history and heritage that burns in soooo many of us will ignite in Harb and those like him.. and i don’t care how long it takes.. as long as it happens..
Everyone except few on this forum provided excellent comments.. thank you all for that ….
Gayane
Harb, I don’t think that you have disavowed your heritage. I just think that you have distanced yourself. Look, all of us in the diaspora are fighting two battles if we choose to….. one are the issues of our people,…. the unfinished business caused by the unprecedented expulsion of Armenians from their homeland. The other is the war against assimilation. In the diaspora, especially in America, we remain Armenian by choice…. and we assimilate by choice. There is not one commited Armenian here who doesn’t worry about retention of their heritage and the future for their children as Armenians. This is the great irony of the diaspora. For me, my grandparents came to this country after the genocide, like many American-Armenians. This country gave them life and freedom; for which we should all be grateful. It is only when you are denied such things that they are fully appreciated. My grandparents understood that. We do live in a society, however, that enables assimilation. But , at the end of the day; it is our choice.
Thank God , we have that freedom. So we build schools and churches and community centers. We have youth organizations, socials and networking group…. all with the intent of maintaining identity.
This was the plan for the diaspora for several decades. But now we have an nidependent Armenia to support. It should be a mutual beneficial relationship for the diasporan Armenian. We help support(economically, financially, etc.) our ancestral homeland and we receive a gift in return. That gift is a way to address assimilation by helpingto make identity with our heritage real. How many young Armenians have gone to Armenia and come back inspired?
All of us enjoy our Armenian heritage in some way. For many , it is a deep commitment. For others it is based on convenience. Regardless, we need to remember that for centuries our people have survived based on a conection in their heart to this history, to this identity and to each other. This is a sacred responsibilty that each of us has. But like many responsibilities, sometimes they are ignored. It is what ties us to Tigranes, Mashdotz, Taniel Varoujan and the countless others who have given us this gift. A gift that all of us, to varying degrees, including you Harb, enjoy. Be guided by your heart and free yourself to take your place in the long line of those who have recieved and passed this gift along. Those in the future should not be denied.
Boycotting is a waste of time. Why do you always think that your boycotting will change anything? What’s your goal: move on or keep the status quo?
For those who want to move on, one thing to advice. Go to Akhtamar and profit from Ambassadors and cameras of world media outlets to shout and claim the genocide recognition. Hold banners, sing songs, shout “Erdogan, we are not dupes. We want Akhtamar’s Holly Cross and other churches returned to the Armenian Church”. I mean, use this opportunity to attract the attention to your cause instead of loosing it.
Karekin, I feel for you, but you have to realize you put your own head on the chopping block when you try to convince the descendants of victims and survivors of the Genocide to “move on.” You are definitely in the minority on this site. No one disagrees that the strength and security of the Republic of Armenia is paramount. We are grateful to have a free and independent state, fledgling and struggling though it is. However, you are wrong to tell people who have a legitimate claim on property in Turkey to forget about it. This is their right. More power to them.
But as Armenians we have a further claim, and that is the claim of outrage against the injustice that was dealt against us and in the subsequent genocides that followed. We have earned the right to our voice of indignation and the right to repeatedly call the world’s attention to these injustices until the forces that allow such things to happen are stopped. You might find this futile or depressing. Others find inspiration in the thought that their lives are connected to such a worthy cause. Or do dispute that standing for justice is a worthy cause?
Being Armenian is a state of mind? So you give no credence to the concept of feeling connected to place? 4000, indisputable years, do not create a character in a people? 4000 years of fighting the survival odds in a tumultuous area with ever changing boundaries only to be wiped out in a blink of the eye doesn’t outrage you? 4000 years to develop a distinct language and a distinct Armenian kind of Orthodoxy, distinct art and architecture that draws directly from its environment for inspiration, and you would say “Oh well, things happen.”
The dirt is still under my fingernails.
Misha from Paris: Since you just popped up in these pages, I’ll repeat for you personally: it’s not about boycotting, it’s about whether it makes sense for Armenians to visit and pray in our own church on a day and in the form designated by the Turks, and not on a day and in the form that we ourselves choose. Secondly, many of us don’t see this mockery on Akhtamar island as a substantial step towards rapprochement on the part of the Turkish government so that we, as you say, “move on.” Think for moment about the format of the event: a “museum” is “graciously” allowed to function as a church for just one day—with a Turkish flag and no cross on the top and with a portrait of Kemal instead of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ that’s been effectively desecrated—and by authorities of a nation that 95 years ago exterminated all worshippers of the church, as we as well all inhabitants of the Van province where the church is situated. Do you consider this a substantial platform to “move on”?
As for media, even those who want to, as you say, “move on,” expressed no certainty that those media outlets will touch upon genocide recognition even if we “shout and claim,” because the goal is to portray Turkey as an “open, religiously tolerant” society, not the reasons why they church stood idle for 95 years, what happened to its Armenian worshippers, and what’s the state of thousands of other Armenian churches and monasteries in the Turkey-occupied Western Armenian lands. How do you attract attention to the Cause if media stops short of getting the message across?
I didn’t get what “ambassadors” you had in mind? You don’t really think that members of the diplomatic corps accredited in the host country would want to be present in an event where Armenians will be, as you suggest, “holding banners, singing songs, and shouting ‘Erdogan is a Nazi p**’”?
Katia,
Katia you have asked so many questions-few about matters of fact but several about my feelings. My feelings are unlikely to contribute to a thoughtful discussion. You’ve also made assertions about my lack of ties to the genocide. Maybe we ought to start there.
If we include all adult generations of our extended family here in the USA–the count is 5. This includes TWO generations of genocide survivors. Among my great grandparents one survived to reach the US. Among my grandparents 2 survived to reach the US. Subsequently 3 generations have been born in the US. My surviving grandparents met and married other survivors here in the US. I spent a lot of time with my grandparents. I can’t tell you how many nights I heard my grandmother cry out in her sleep in anguish and pain. My guess is my story is no different than anyone else in this forum. Similar to many of you-it comes through in your writings–I have struggled with the hate and anger. Some of you play down the hate and anger that has hold of you but it comes through. I am no different. I struggle to insure it does not become my driving force.
Katia, you ask why I am reading the Weekly and not the NYT. Katia, it is not apparent to me why you would conclude that reading the NYT and the Weekly are mutually exclusive or why being an Armerican would also preclude an interest in my lineage. Even if you could explain the thought process that led you to these conclusions or the set of assumptions that led you to believe that my predecessors got a pass on the genocide–it would not be helpful or relevant.
To the participants of this forum. Let me approach in a different way and tone that might resonate more easily with some.
Some assumptions in no particular order:
Success is the best revenge
That getting what you want on the international stage is a function of the leverage you bring to the negotiating table. It is not a matter of right or wrong or justice. Granted these are descriptors invoked widely and effusively in foreign affairs and policy.
That a victims mentality doesn’t play out well over time. At some point it is just whining.
If you expect other countries to sacrifice their interests for Armenia-then you are going to be disappointed more often than not.
Lets drill down a bit more.
If you want justice-you need leverage-you need to bring currency to the negotiating table. Right now, Turkey has a lot more leverage than Armenia. Turkey can provide influence plus support for basing and logistcs to the US. I fully expect the US to take advantage of those capabilities regardless of who really owns the land. The US in-turn has to make it worthwhile for Turkey. Genocide recognition is part of the quid pro quo in the US-Turkey relationship. When the US determines it isn’t getting what it needs from Turkey or it gets annoyed with Turkey and Armenia develops to the point of being able to offer something of value to the US-then Genocide Recognition happens. Yes, the world is an ugly place replete with competing interests. As much as you may want it to work on principle it doesn’t and won’t. Principle merely provides the terminology to wrap around what is nothing more or less than expediency.
To have leverage you need a strong-successful, viable Armenia. An Armenia that is dependent on the largess of Russia, the USA (armenia is the second largest per capita recipient of US aid). the EU and yes, the diaspora–has no leverage. Each of these parties has its own strings and agenda-including the diaspora. Armenia is just whipped around by these often competing patrons.
Justice for the genocide is best indirectly pursued. Diaspora efforts-110% should be directed to supporting Armenia and its needs. The people who live in Armenia need the latitude to pursue their best interests even if those interests are not apparently aligned with the diaspora agenda. Example, Armenia can not become a viable-truly independent state while blockaded. If the protocols open the border-so be it. Many in the diaspora are outrage by the thought for many reasons. Among them-the issue of border recognition. This is of course bogus in real terms. Remember Sevres–that treaty was overturned by the success of the Turkish Independence War and the Treaty of Lausanne. Treaties only bind until they don’t.
If small gestures between the two states-Turkey and Armenia help in some measure to move towards an open border then great-which brings us back to the Church Service.
I could go on-but you get the drift. You will see some merit or not.
Karekin: I actually live in today’s Republic and for me and millions of others being Armenian is both a state of mind and a physical place. As such, we’re not “rejecting” historical outcomes “just because [we] don’t like them and hope them to be different.” We’re rejecting continuation of denial for the crime against us and obstruction of justice for us. This can be perceived as nationalistic—and “nationalism” has many definitions—only in terms of a nation’s claim for restoration of justice. In no way is it reminiscent to thinking inside a “restrictive ideological box.” We’re also rejecting your distorted interpretations of historical timeframes and events, the most recent one being: “Armenians have—either by force or by choice—left their homeland to explore the world.” Why do you typify this as a distinctly Armenian behavior? What nation didn’t leave their homeland to explore the world? Didn’t Italians or the Irish come to America from their respective homeland by choice? The nation is formed not only as a result of attachment to a particular territory, but even more so, as a result of languistic, traditional, cultural, and, broadly, civilizational heritage that it develops on a particular territory. To say “why the fuss about territory most Armenians will never live on anytime soon” is, to me, robotic and insensitive. Such a rigid statement may be applicable to a nation with a 250 year-old history, but not to a nation with 4000 year-old history. It also oversimplifies the situation: those territories were not voluntarily abandoned by Armenians: they’re soaked in blood and covered with bones of our mass-murdered ancestors, therefore, there’s a great psychological, generational element in our attachment to these territories. As for Armenia, no one denies that it’s high on the priority list, but here again you distort by saying: “Armenia… does not need to antagonize a powerful neighbor, nor can it afford to.” In 1991 Armenia became independent and least of all on the foreign policy and national security agenda of the newly-formed state was “antagonizing a neighbor.” Have we witnessed Ankara’s willingness to establish diplomatic relations with the Republic, as a result? On the contrary, we came to witness imposition of blockade and closing of the border. It is Turkey that continues its genocide against Armenians by denying recognition of her crime and attempting to suffocate the new Republic. Even if we forget the genocide recognition and territorial compensation issue tomorrow, Turkey will still trample us in pursuit of her “make-your-neighbor-weak” policy and in pursuit of the remnants of her pan-Turkic, pan-Islamic euphoria. I think genocide recognition and strengthening of the Republic and Artsakh are mutually inclusive notions that represent a unified front against Turkish unrepentant, expansionist, and intolerant policies towards Armenia and Armenians. Lastly, forcible relocation of native American tribes didn’t cost “millions” of lives; native American lands were not as densely populated as Asia Minor; native American tribes didn’t develop high civilizations as peoples of Asia Minor; native American tribes didn’t face centuries-long colonial millet treatment that ultimately led to their total annihilation. Most importantly, colonizers of native American tribes could find the courage to officially apologize to them for maltreatment. Armenians couldn’t prevent nomadic Turkish barbarians from stealing our land and resources and eliminating our people, but we can do is to hold them responsible for their crime. You’re, obviously, not on the same train with us…
Wow Harb! What kind of a – me and my people are hopeless saps and should just accept the status quo – commentary was that? I truly feel sorry for ingratiated defeatists like yourself. Good day and good lu
ck to you.
Harb,
the only thing that is unsettling for me about what you said is the way you presented yourself, especially in your first post. You projected some kind of “above it all” detachment, which made me sad. Nevertheless, I agree with your points, 100%, although I am an Armenian, first, and an American, second. “Success is the best revenge” is my mantra. If Armenia goes underwater, it will be the last page in our nation’s history. It will be irrelevant whether the genocide is recognized or not. Survival and success is the best victory over those who wanted us dead.
Genocide recognition is extremely important to me. However, our resources are not unlimited. If we have to choose a priority, I think a succesful finale to the Karabagh issue and a strong and economically powerful Armenia, along with a prosperous Armenian diaspora, are number one. From there, it will be a lot easier to restore the justice that is long overdue.
In particular, as important as the question of going to Akhtamar is, I think there is way too much energy devoted on this forum to it. In general, I would like to see many more articles on these pages devoted to what’s happening in Armenia and how we can help.
Dear Gina,
You speak from my heart….
Thank You!!
Gina you are absolutely correct regarding Armenia succeeding as an independent nation. Genocide recognition cannot take precedence over a living, breathing prospering Armenia where our language and culture flourish and transform into new innovative expressions of what being Armenian means. Strong economy equals strong families equals well fed children equals vibrant schools equals invention and creation of a new Armenia for the future; all of which requires security and sound relations with neighbors as a prerequisite.
Hye, our leaderships of our fledgling nation of Armenia have been, obviously, to put it bluntly, been the worst that a new nation, overcoming the Turkish Genocide of our people, and then the USSR communisim too. Then a first president who ‘gave away the store’ and those that followed too, including the ill equipped leaders of today, still of their communist mentality – today filling first their own pockets, endlessly, and to hell with the worthy citizens of Haiastan. Nearly twenty (20) years old, Haiastan today young, and in need of patriots who are able to give of themselves for all the citizenry of Haiastan. It appears that the leadership of Artsakh (NK) is proving to better the lives of their citizens – at a dedicated pace – than the leaders of Haiastan… Yerevan is as a city in the USA- the villages are waiting. Hopefully Serge and Edward take an early leave of office; hopefully our citizens of Haiastan are learning to choose leaders dedicated for a Haiastan. And yet, even here in the USA, we sometimes have not elected (from the choices that were) the most dedicated, patriotic and selfless leaders the citizens of the USA has need of and deserves. Seems to me that if Abraham Lincoln, a fine leader, were he running for office of the presidency he would not be elected!! Good and honest leaders in all the world’s history come along from time to time… as at Sardarbad and Artsakh – and in the meantime… mediocrocy rules. Sadly. Manooshag
Gina said:
the only thing that is unsettling for me about what you said is the way you presented yourself, especially in your first post. You projected some kind of “above it all” detachment, which made me sad.
Gina, I went back an read that initial note. You are right-I don’t like the tone either.
MJM – it’s great that you are living in Armenia – bravo to you! Though, you may have to consult your history books again, because unbeknownst to you, as many as 20 million native Americans died or were put to death as a result of the European arrival in the new world. You may think the Americas were underpopulated in comparison to Asia Minor, but keep in mind, as of 1915, there were only about 10 million people living in Anatolia (approx. 2.5 milliion of them Armenians) …18 million in the entire Ottoman Empire. Today, Istanbul has 15 million people all by itself. That said, I have to agree w/ Gina…she makes the point very well and sounds very pragmatic…that today’s Armenia and Karabagh are all we have and are, or should be, the most important priorities for all Armenians. People in the diaspora are pretty much doing just fine now…they are comfortable, successful, professional. They may have wants (such as wanting the genocide to be recognized), but in most ways, they have no needs as do the vast majority of people in Armenia. This may sound a bit harsh, though it’s not meant to be, but yearning, crying and wringing hands over what has been lost is not going to get it back….history just doesn’t work that way, especially when you don’t have either the numbers or political winds on your side. My family also has deeds and property papers for land in Turkey. So what? What shall we do with those? Will we, can we – get that land back? Doubtful. Am I sad about it? A bit. Do I care to make a fuss about it? Not likely. However, if you want to see and experience the old Turkish-Armenia of our great-grandparents, you can go there, see history – touch it, taste it and smell it – and there is no overwhelming Russian influence to tinge things. Plus, just like Khatchig Mouradian did, you can in many ways, get a sense of the past, with all the good and bad. It may not be perfect, I’ll admit, but neither is Armenia itself, which has its own share of crumbling churches and long vacant historic sites.
Harb- again.. by presenting your reasons does not change the fact that i don’t agree how you view yourself… because at the end of the day, you call yourself an American and not an Armenian.. which truly bugs me… i understand what you are trying to explain by giving us reasons… but those are reasons only…and you use these reasons to turn yourself away from your culture, heritage and history. .. also, you let these reasons turn you into something you are not by blood and that is to call yourself an American and not an Armenian… that is to me an easy way out and that is wrong….. i am sorry..
Karekin- please stop talking.. you are making my blood pressure go up… i jst can’t read your convoluted comments too long.. MJM along with many already commented and gave you excellent arguments… ALSO, NO ONE said we should forget Armenia, and Kharabagh.. on the contrary, we are doing everything to help our motherland.. however, Armenia and the Genocide Reognition go hand in hand.. we have explained this to you many times over… to care and look after our country does not mean we have to drop the Genocide Recognition ticket.. you with “forget the past, and lets move on” truly makes me angry…
and you with your ignorant comment of People in the diaspora are pretty much doing just fine now…they are comfortable, successful, professional
and how do you know that?? do you live with my family or other families who struggle every day to make ends meet ??? DO YOU? my guess would be NO. so stop with your stupid remarks and ignorant comments.. because there are many families like my family who use any means to save as much as we can just to assist those who need our help in ARmenia (including my 100+ family members who are still living in Armenia)…we also support organizations such as Armenian Tree Project, ANCA or any well known and humanitarian groups regardless the dollar amount to make sure we rebuild our nation stone by stone, tree by tree, and voice by voice…. ..
If you think those living in Diaspora are spoiled, rich, ignorant, and selfish people and they care less about Armenia than they do about their cars houses, degrees, and career, you are dead wrong.. my family and many that I know who live in America live in an apartment, drive a salvaged car, don’t own a house, incomes combined do not even equal to $70,000 annually, don’t use too much hot water and turn off any lights that are not in use, purchase non brand clothes and do not have extra money to gamble away in vegas or san manuel casinos just to be able to save a little extra money to send to our people in need in ARmenia… now i don’t think this is a comfortable life or a selfish act.. do you??? so get off your high horse and think twice before you put down your own countrymen and women…as you can see, even though many of us who can’t greatly assist with our financial aid (i just wish I had the money..) we help with other ways.. like how we fight with our keyboard strokes, our pen and our words every day to educate non-Armenians about our history, culture and heritage which is probably more than what you contribute Karekin.. ….i just don’t know ….
MJM, Boyajian and Katia jan… thank you for your great comments.. always a pleasure to read them…
Have a great evening..
Gayane
Look, Gayane, I support all the same organizations and charities that you do and some others as well that are important to me, so I am not here to criticize your giving habits, but…to equate genocide recognition with supporting today’s Armenia is just a bit of a stretch. Living people always trump memories for very good reasons…the living represent the future. Some people might be on a high horse, but it’s not me. In the US, those who endlessly advocate war without actually ever being in the military are called ‘chicken hawks’. I think we can see a similar phenomenon in the Armenian community. I know that people support whatever they can, and it’s all about individual choice and ability. It’s all great. However, since this discussion is focused on attendance of badarak at Akhtamar, I would also suggest that those who expend endless energies demeaning Turkey’s work there as a pure PR stunt could at least be appreciative that one of our most cherished monuments is still standing and that it will not get worse. That’s all. If you really care about Armenian history, then you should be ecstatic about Akhtamar receiving protected status, whether it’s from the govt of Turkey, UNESCO of any other agency or organization. Restoring Akhtamar, at the least, is evidence of some kind of respect. So please, give your grudge a rest. When you complain about anything and everything, then nothing can be important and you cannot ever be satisfied, even in a minimal way. This is not the behavior or mindset of a balanced adult, it is the mindset of a spoiled child who has not learned to accept that yesterday’s spilled milk cannot be put back in the glass. It may be a ‘tough love’ message, but it’s one that some of my fellow Armenians need to accept. This does NOT mean abandoning history or the genocide, far from it, but rather accepting that Rome (real or conceptual), was not built in a day. Repairing Akhtamar is one small step of a very long and difficult process that can deliver many benefits across the board if it is accepted and nurtured to the next step, and then the next, and then the next. One small step at a time. Accept the fact that you cannot get everything you want all at once or exactly when you want it, but if you can be patient, good things will come your way. It’s not unlike wine….open it too early and you just get sour grape juice, wait the proper time and you will enjoy a wonderful taste. Is this such a hard lesson?
Karekin: You have a pathological inclination towards inflating figures, as in: “Armenians were not independent for 1000 years,” or “Armenians were ruled by the Ottoman empire for 700 years,” or “Seljuks ruled Armenia for 400 years,” or deflating them when it comes to supporting your arguments, as in: “as of 1915, there were only about 10 million people living in Anatolia, 18 million in the entire Ottoman Empire.” You also continually distort historically-known geographical toponyms, as in: “Anatolia.” This is a Turkish creation, geography knows no such a toponym as “Anatolia.” The area has been known as Asia Minor or Eastern Asia Minor in case you’d want to use “Eastern Anatolia.” In Eastern Asia Minor the plateau which Armenians inhabited for millennia has been known as “Armenian Plateau.” This time, too: “as many as 20 million native Americans died or were put to death as a result of the European arrival in the new world.” The number of Indians who died at the hands of the Europeans is highly debatable. An estimate sponsored by the U.S. government shows between 1 million to 4 million Indians killed. Independent researchers give higher figures, from 4 to 12 million Indians, as a result of Europeans’ arrival. But you omit the fact that widespread epidemic disease, to which the natives had no prior exposure or resistance, was the overwhelming cause of the massive population decline of the Native Americans. You also omit the fact that the U.S. enacted laws that were previously not applicable to American Indians recognizing their rights, such as The Indian Civil Rights Act of 1968, the Indian Education Act of 1972, the Indian Self-Determination and Education Assistance Act of 1975, as well as the establishment of the Senate Select Committee on Indian Affairs and the opening of the Museum of the American Indian near the U.S. Capitol.
According to Encyclopedia Britannica, in 1914, i.e. before the genocide of Armenians, the total population of the Ottoman Empire was approximately 25 million, of which about 10 million were Turks, 6 million Arabs, 1.5 million Kurds, 1.5 million Greeks, and between 1.5 million and 2.5 million Armenians.
Lastly, your family has deeds and property papers for land in Turkey, and you ask: “So what? What shall we do with those? Do I care to make a fuss about it? Not likely.” You fail to understand that for most of the Armenians it’s not only about their ancestors’ stolen property, but most importantly, it’s about the memory of their massacred ancestors and desecrated civilizational heritage that need to be acknowledged as a premeditated physical and cultural genocide and be apologized for by the Turks. Now, if you dare to ask the same humiliating question “So what?” in this case, then go ahead and keep asking it to yourself in a haunted latrine.
MJM – I don’t want to get into a pissing match about numbers, but here are some real numbers – from Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Ottoman_Empire
As for the Americas:
Using an estimate of approximately 30 million people in 1492 (including 15 million in the Aztec Empire and 6 million in the Inca Empire), the lowest estimates give a death toll due from disease of an astonishing 80% by the end of the 16th century (8 million people in 1650).[3] Latin America would only recover its 15th century population early in the 20th century; it numbered 17 million in 1800, 30 million in 1850, 61 million in 1900, 105 million in 1930, 218 million in 1960, 361 million in 1980, and 563 million in 2005.[3] In the last three decades of the 16th century, the population of present-day Mexico dropped to about one million people.[3] The Maya population is today estimated at 6 million, which is about the same as at the end of the 15th century, according to some estimates.[3] In what is now Brazil, the indigenous population declined from a pre-Columbian high of an estimated 4 million to some 300,000.
The Aboriginal population of Canada during the late 15th century is estimated to have been between 200,000[4] and two million,[5] with a figure of 500,000 currently accepted by Canada’s Royal Commission on Aboriginal Health.[6] Repeated outbreaks of European infectious diseases such as influenza, measles and smallpox (to which they had no natural immunity), combined with dispossession from European/Canadian settlements and repressive policies, resulted in a forty to eighty percent aboriginal population decrease post-contact.[4] For example, during the late 1630s, smallpox killed over half of the Wyandot (Huron), who controlled most of the early North American fur trade in what became Canada, were reduced to fewer than 10,000 people.[7]
Wikipedia is believed to be the most unreliable source of information because virtually anyone can add, edit, or otherwise revise any given section that contains information on a subject.
Hey Karekin, if you are not willing “to make a fuss” about your families deeds and property in Turkey and don’t feel particularly inclined to collect what rightfully belongs to you, perhaps you wouldn’t mind handing over your family’s deeds and property to other Armenians willing to do the legwork in reclaiming what rightfully belongs to us?
sadly, while there is a lively discussion in “Armenian Weekly” on this issue it is hardly noticed in Turkish papers. I regularly follow the “Daily Zaman” and “the Daily Hurriyet” and “Taraf”, some times the “Bianet.tr” and try to find anything similar to the discussions in “Armenian Weekly. There is very little to find, and few opportunities for debate of the kind we see here. The Turkish side is resting on its assumed laurels after the reluctance of the Armenian side to support the historical commission which by the way would have provided a very important forum, properly organized, to demonstrate again the inadquacy and sometimes sheer falsity of standard turkish claims. Yiou refuse a debate referring to holy truths. Thisd is hardly satisfactory. A chance was lost. Mr. Sassiounian’s campaign for boicott of the 19 september mass follows the same logic. Boicott, boicott, never counter the adversary directly. I will not criticise Karekin II for not attending. He is actually in a realistic political tug of war with Turkish authorities, but Mr. Sassounian’s policies seems geared at maintaining his own political constituency rather than further the Armenian cause by using opportunities to influence Turks and demonstrating for the world what is going on. I posted the following message after an article today (9.septemberI in “Daily Zaman”), but wish that some of the eloquence and energy of many of the posts in “Armenian Weekly” were seen in Turkish papers. You win a war by enganging the enemy – metaphorically speaking – not by lively discussions in your own camp.
My text;
it sounds extremely strange that Turkish entrepreneurs, who regularly are assigned to difficult tasks abroad should not be able to solve the technical questions of mounting the cross on the church. This smacks of political bickering. Turkey has a very long way to go to be able to go into the dark spots of its history and make repairs to the Armenians. The alleged inability to mount a cross in time is hardly convincing
“….seems geared at maintaining his own political constituency…” I wrote my last post at the spur of the moment, and want to emphasize that I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of Mr. Sassounian. The formulation was not a good one. There is however a logic to your approach, Mr. Sassounian, and I tried to show it by recapitulating your stand on different stages of the debate on the Sourp Khatch church. There are several possible interpretatons of this logic. Does it mean that one hopes to force Turkey exclusively from the outside, and can neglect to support any piecemeal progress in Turkey because it, as the revolutionaries used to say, only fosters illusions? It it useless to support Turkish human rights activists for instance when they launch the “I apologize movement”? Is it useless for Armenians to go to smaller or greater events or places or institutions in Turkey itself (for instance Turkish newspapers) to further the Armenian cause? Or do you believe that political pressure outside Turkey itself will be sufficient?
Hrayr…do you know that Turkish law stipulates that Armenians are entitled to their land/properties, but only if they have not been ‘appropriated’ by someone else. Unfortunately, the saying that a treaty, a deed, etc. isn’t worth the paper it is written on seems to be germaine here. While it might be nice to have those properties, I doubt that any of my family members would ever move to the center of Turkey at this point in time. Maybe you or your family would…if so, bravo for you. At the same time, I’ve also read that another Turkish law stipulates that if a religious edifice (church, mosque, synagogue) does not have a community to support it financially, then it falls under state control. While it is clear that these policies were largely designed to hinder or disable the minorities and steal their properties, I can say that every entity handles such affairs in their own way. In the US, there are many vacant churches across the landscape…. boarded up, closed, turned into condos or community centers. Perhaps they aren’t really churches unless someone is using them as such and can maintain them? In any event, my point is that if we really want to see Akhtamar preserved for future generations, it makes alot more sense to become active participants in its revival, rather than backseat drivers or naysayers sitting at the sidelines. And, while I agree w/ Ragnar that it might be good if the Turkish public and press were more aware of these discussions, we also have to recognize that the significance of all this for today’s Turks is minimal due to the small size of the Armenian community there, even if it is represents huge and significant part of Anatolian history.
There’s no such a thing as “Anatolian” history, because there’s been no such a geographical toponym as “Anatolia” in history before the Turks have colonized indigenous peoples living in Asia Minor, transforming them to millets of the Ottoman empire in the 16th century AD. The correct toponym is “Asia Minor” or its eastern part where Armenians lived for millennia. If you’re so concerned about Akhtamar being preserved for future generations, why aren’t you similarly concerned about calling geographical places by their correct names for the present and future generations?
Ragnar says: “You win a war by enganging the enemy – metaphorically speaking – not by lively discussions in your own camp.” I have to agree with you, Ragnar. We have to talk to the Turks, the good guys and the bad guys. Also, despite the fact that I am offended by the absence of the cross on the church and I am not going to Akhtamar, I agree that there can be some benefits in going there. The answer to that question isn’t as black and white to me as it is to some others.
As for not supporting the establishment of a historical commission, I thought the reasons have been discussed many times. What do you personally expect the commission to find out that is going to be news for you?
Karekin since your looking into it anyway, I wonder if you know of any Turkish law that regulates the entitlement to those who faced forced appropriation of land and property 95 years ago as a result of state planned butcher campaigns with the intent to eliminate a particular race? Any clue? If not, do you have any clue as to why these laws may not exist?
Gina
I dont necessarily expect a historical commission, properly organized, to find out anything new at all, if we speak about answers in the sense of definitely cracking a code or finding a logically compelling and empirically 100 percent unassailable conclusion or “definite truth”. Science does not work like that in the end as long as somebody is objecting. But I expected there to surface so many examples of the Turkish side having the burden of proof that the main denialist Turkish versions would have been destroyed for ever, not because the bulk of historians disagree with them, but because it would be evident more in detail to a much broader international scene.
But this presupposes that there had to be an international audience following the procedures of a commission, hearing in detail how the Turkish side answers questions properly posed. This would completely discredit the traditional Turkish side as it is vastly inferior to the scholarly assets the Armenian side can muster. Provided the existence of a commission, which surely would draw international attention, the main denialist stances would be more more clearly exposed than it has been so far. And this again would have an impact in Turkey. We have seen it before. The linguists told Atatürk that he must stop talking about Turkish being the source of all other languages, or make himself ridiculous in the eyues of the world. and he stopped.
–But of course a number of the assertions I see from time to time from Armenians in these discussions in “Armenian weekly” would also have to go. But to my mind it would have been a victory for the Armenian side. This is my view since you ask.
Gina: “The answer to that question [going to Akhtamar] isn’t as black and white to me as it is to some others.” Well, “some others” actually never put the question as black and white, i.e. to go or not to go. On the contrary, they—myself included—offered a different dimension to it, namely: why precisely on the 19th and why in the format designed by the Turks? Why not on any other date, on our own initiative, and in the format that we ourselves choose? So far, “some others” haven’t heard any objective, rational, and balanced response to it.
Ragnar Naess: These questions were addressed to Harout, but I’d like to comment on them anyway. Hope you don’t mind.
“Is it useless for Armenians to go to smaller or greater events or places or institutions in Turkey itself (for instance Turkish newspapers) to further the Armenian cause?” I’d be interested to know how you technically envision this having in mind that Turkish citizens themselves are being harassed by their authorities for speaking the truth?
“It it useless to support Turkish human rights activists, for instance, when they launch the “I apologize movement?” The “movement” that gathered 30,000 signatures in a country of 73 million people was not as immaculate as it might seem. It’s been revealed by some initiators of the movement (Ayse Gunaysu, for example) that the movement also pursued the goal of calming the waves of international recognition of the Armenian genocide.
“Do you believe that political pressure outside Turkey itself will be sufficient?” It IS, actually, so far sufficient: we have growing number of foreign governments—central and provincial—recognizing the genocide, as well reputable international organizations, regional organizations, professional associations, advocacy groups and human rights organizations, as well as scores of genocide scholars, historians, and Nobel Prize laureates on our side. I’m more than sure that in addition to such major world players as France, Russia, and Germany (although Bundestag avoided the term “genocide” because Germany was Turkish accomplice at the time), other major countries will follow the lead.
Ragnar,
if there is nothing new to learn from a commission, why do we need it at all?
You think that the process will finally expose the bankruptcy of all denialist arguments for the world to see. Good point. Assuming things with the commission go as you describe in your first paragraph, Turks will have to finally accept the inconvenient truth in front of the international community with all the implied concequences.
Now, knowing the majority of Turks as well as you and I do, why would they want to do that? Why would they want a commission like the one that you suggest? I hope, you are not going to tell me that they don’t know the truth and want to find it out for themselves. If so, why would they have the infamous Article 301 to punish whoever speaks the truth?
Ironically, it’s the most vehement denialists who talk about a commission simply because they know very well that the existing cummulative knowledge is overwhelmingly not in their favor. The progressive forces, such as Pamuk and Akcam, who care for the long-term interests of their country, do not need help from any commission. See, I am having a very hard time reconciling the sigle-minded by all means denialist behavior with a willingness to find out the truth. If I think that I need a commission to find out the truth, why make the strong denialist statements ex ante? Shouldn’t I abstain from doing that until I find out the truth?
The bottom line is, I don’t think what you describe is the kind of commission and the process Turks have in mind. I am sure that you understand their hidden agendas very well and the way you describe the process in your second paragraph suggests that you, too, have serious doubts about whether we can realistically expect such a commission enhance the international awarness of the truth.
Ragnar,
You established an odious record in these pages and elsewhere on the issue of the Ottoman and Kemalist Genocide and massacres of Armenians, Greeks, Pontians, and Assyrians. Frankly, I would prefer to read the fascist ravings of Ergun Kirlikovali than this poisonous honey.
First, there is no “Armenian position” on the AG. That’s the way your friends the Turkish nationalists frame the issue – its just a psat between Armenians and Turks. What it actually was, in the Words of the British War Mionistry in 1915 and to this day – is a crime against humanity. The Holocaust of the Jews, is in the same measure not something only Jews assert.
Don’t counsel the grandchildren of the slaughtered and dispossessed as to how they should frame any argument, who cares what you in Norway find satisfying. The truth is that you deny the Genocide, and like to pussyfoot around that simple fact.
If you are here in good faith – which you aren’t – counsel your Turkish nationalist buds about the Genocide that needs acknowledgment, apology and reparation.
mjm,
perhaps, I haven’t read your comments on Akhtamar as carefully as I should’ve. However, I got an impression that some people had very strong views on whether we should go or not. I guess, you are not one of them. But what I meant was that, even on the existing terms set by Turks, it would not be an easy decision for me to make.
Exactly Zara jan.. good question..
Karekin since your looking into it anyway, I wonder if you know of any Turkish law that regulates the entitlement to those who faced forced appropriation of land and property 95 years ago as a result of state planned butcher campaigns with the intent to eliminate a particular race? Any clue? If not, do you have any clue as to why these laws may not exist?
I would like to know that as well..
karekin?? your turn…
Ragnar.. i don’t get it…
it seems like you have a tendency of going from one forum to another and ignite a long list of discussions and then abruptly leaving when you see you have nothing else to say or convince us or simply being defeated…
We have expressed to you many times over.. no matter what you say.. you are not ON OUR SIDE SIR.. until you truly believe that Genocide did happen and it happened by the hands of the Turks, you beloved fair and civilized friends, no matter what you say, I will still see you as a deniar… sorry.. truly sorry.. but that is how it will be..get that through your head.. and no matter what reasons or comments or justifications or examples you provide to us.. I will not take any of it as anything but smoke blown into my eyes because i know underneath all that there is an agenda… and that agenda is not a venue that will support the Armenian cause. Not by you…
So your suggestions and input may be entertaining but does not mean anything…
Pay attention to Gina’s and mjm’s comments…they are very valuable..
Good Day
Spoken like a true Karekin.. we have a sayin in Armenian when you try to educate or try to explain someone something but in return they do their own same thing… we say..’ iranq irants ESH nen qshum” or ” Chor glux”…
You say:
So please, give your grudge a rest. When you complain about anything and everything, then nothing can be important and you cannot ever be satisfied, even in a minimal way
ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? and you think by pointing out how corrupt and manipulative Turks and demanding what is owed to us is complaining? So to make you happy, why don’t I go and kiss the Turks feet to thank them for keeping our church..oh oh.. i am sorry.. my error.. our MUSEUM in tact for everyone to enjoy..oh Gosh.. I did it again.. i am sorry.. dang.. i meant to say… for TURKISH STATE to enjoy the benefits and rip the fruit of everything conceived and prospered by my ancestors… or should I simply hand over my hard earned money to Turks.. will that make you happy? is that what you are suggesting me to do? You want me to jump up and down from joy that Turkey did a HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE FAVOR to poor Armenians by renovating the church now a museum with Turkish flag and their bastard icon hanging in our church? You must be smoking something produced or manufactured by the Turks .. seriously…
Here is a reality check for you SIR…. most everything that the Turks do has an underlying agenda which usually benefits them… THE ONLY WAY and THE ONLY TIME i will be greateful or be happy about something is when I know FOR A FACT that Turks propose or do something out of goodwill and genuine desire without any hidden agendas..but as we have seen it for many many years, Turks don’t do anything out of good will or genuine desire..so until then.. you continue to support Turkey by patting them on their shoulder for saving our church, and I will continue to support our cause…
and if you are trying to say that you are a strong player and by suggesting to get into a match with MJM.. all I can say is good luck because you won’t win…..
Good Day Karekin..
Gayane
JDA… i just loved your comment.. i finished typing my comment when I saw yours…. you took the word out of my mouth.. you hit the bulls eye…apres..
Gayane
Loved your comment, jda: laconic and strong, at the same time.
Ragnar Naess: A question of mine in AW’s another discussion “Armenian Kids Made to Leave Sourp Khatch Church in Akhtamar” of September 5, 2010 is still awaiting your response.
Gina: You’re right. I’m for going to Akhtamar on any day but the 19th; with a group of Armenians from Diaspora, the Republic, and Artsakh visiting that and several other Armenian churches and monasteries; wearing T-shirts with “Road to Home” on them, and praying inside—and if denied by compassionate, religiously so tolerant, and human life-valuing Turks—outside of them.
gayane – you gave me my laugh for the day when you said “iranq irants esh nem qsum or chor glux.” – too funny, but appropriate.
let’s all be clear about who paid for the very basic renovation of Holy Cross when turkey turned it into a museum. There is no reason for gratitude on our part. The artifacts they removed from our church are worth millions today and desired by museums around the world. the Illuminated manuscripts alone would see a frenzy of bidding world-wide. Where is all this? In their storehouses? sold? the cost of renovation is nowhere near the value of the artifacts that were in that church. We have more than paid for any restoration. The reality is that we would have preferred to do it ourselves. And before any simple mind asks why we didn’t, let me say that of course we would have – but if we had lifted even one shovel, we would all have been sent on the Midnight Express.
does anyone have any numbers yet of how many are going?
Harb, responding to your post… many posts ago.
You wrote:”Katia you have asked so many questions-few about matters of fact but several about my feelings”.
Harb, that’s nonsense. All the questions that I asked you had to do with facts. Since you are American first, i asked you how you “felt about” the following “facts” about your country:
1. The US says that it advocates Human Rights and condemns Genocides, but has consistently refused to officially recognize the Armenian Genocide because the perpetrator is a key ally. A FACT.
2. Injirlik, the US base in Turkey, sits on Armenian property of which we have the deeds. A FACT.
3. US Secretary, Charles E. Hughes was instrumental in bartering the Armenian provinces that the Sevres Treaty had awarded to the Armenians, in return to a percentage in oil revenues in those provinces as well as Mosul Oil. A FACT (check the book Vahan Cardashian, Advocate Extraordinaire of the Armenian Cause)
For some people, the facts are so hurtful, or the crime so debasing and painful, that it’s better to become closed off and not deal with feeling the pain at all. Of course, If you don’t like the word “feel” in my questions, you can substitute it with the word “think”… same idea. The “fact” is that you avoided answering those questions. The FACT is Harb, that you are not simply an American… you are an Armenian-American. (Only the Native Indians are true Americans). My comment of “if you are American, why are you reading the Armenian Weekly instead of the New York Times” was intentionally “absurd” and aimed at shattering the cold facade of “I am only American”. Of course you are free to read whatever you please. But you are here, because deep down you CARE… caring is a feeling. And blood is thicker… I was not surprised at all to learn about your ancestors. I was taunting you to open up and talk about your background.
And guess what, not only did your tone change in your recent posts, but I am in complete agreement with the points you raised in your post of Sept. 7! I have made similar points myself several times. “No one feels your pain like you do”, therefore it makes no sense for the Armenian nation to expect the US, Europe or Israel to feel our pain with us and put all of their interests aside and rescue us. All of these countries are busy tending to all of their painful issues in this race of “the survival of the fittest”. The main objective should be for us to be “fit” as a nation. The Diaspora will realistically not go anywhere soon. A strong Diaspora can be however very beneficial to Armenia. I often suggest creating a Diaspora,Armenia,Artsakh Union (much like the EU) so that we can link all the parts of our nation and have a platform that represents a cohesive national vision/goal. I also agree and echo your thought that whining will not get us anything. We need to have “things” to barter with, whether it be advancements in technology/arts/tourism/fashion. We need to become so viable a nation that the world will take notice and consider sitting on the table with us and listen to our demands.
Another thing that we are lacking in as a nation, is being better “politicians”. It’s amazing how through all the years that we lived with the Turks, we did not learn the art of how to be good liars, sorry, good “politicians” like them. Yes, we should learn a thing or two from the Turks! I don’t know how they manage to be with the West, the East, Europe and Islam all at once. Instead, we stil can’t help but getting all hyped up about what the correct response is to this phony Akhtamar Museum/Mass charade… and we are worried about how each possible reaction of ours will be viewed by Europe and the entire world… as if Europe does not know who Turkey truly is… as if any of the involved countries will be truly buying this masquerade… as if UNESCO is not aware of what Turkey is doing… (but they will all join the show becaue it $uit$ them).. as if it will even matter what Europe and UNESCO thought once we are “Successful”, “Solid” as a nation. They will all then line up to condemn Turkey. Yes, Success is the best revenge… and it should be our “main” target. Gina said it so well! Does Israel care what Europe thinks! Isn’t the US bending backwards to trade with the same Japan it bombed? We cannot afford to lose sight of this “main” target, and “only” work on convincing the world to acknowledge the Genocide and raising awareness to our cause. And in order to be successful as a nation, we need to learn to put the needs of our Nation at the same level as the needs of its separate parts (Unity everyone!)
Welcome home Harb… my Armenian bro… sorry Armenian-American bro…
I know that we are all part of a traditional society that has a traditional mindset, and that mindset almost always dictates that everyone in the group think and act in the same way. That kind of conformity is valued, supported and esteemed. However, there are times when it becomes very obvious, even to those within the society, that such conformity is oppressive and hinders, rather than encourages, open thinking. I’m not sorry for thinking outside the box and strongly suspect that’s why my words are continually criticized here. You may notice that I’ve not hurled insults or barbs toward those who’ve been so harsh to new ideas. That said, I would also add this. Diapsora Armenians (and yes, that includes me), have been banging the same drum about Turkey for a very long time without a change in tune….and after 90 years, have yet to see results that please them. Maybe it’s time to change the tune? I think that’s exactly what Pres. Sarkisyan and his government have been thinking. There are many ways to skin a cat. If the tactic you’ve used does not produce the desired results, try a different method, employ a new strategy. If I tell you I support Armenia 100%, if I tell you I support Karabagh 100%, if I tell you I support genocide recognition and acknowledgment 100%, but that I differ on how we best get there….why is that a problem? Your methods haven’t worked – plain and simple. Shunning Turkey 1000% hasn’t produced the outcome you want…so why not adopt a different and potentially more effective strategy? Learning to adapt to new situations is a key to survival. All I’m asking is that everyone think about some new ways to accomplish our goals, but sadly, that’s heresy for some people who find it easier to just be critical, without offering any constructive, NEW ideas. I’ve heard all the same, old Armenian mantras all my life…and clearly, they have not worked, which is why they’re still being repeated. Pave a new road people – you may find something very new (and good) at the other end.
Katia K.: “It’s amazing how through all the years that we lived with the Turks, we did not learn the art of how to be good liars… like them. […] I don’t know how they manage to be with the West, the East, Europe and Islam all at once.” This can be explained. Turks are pathological liars, i.e. they lie to achieve their goals without caring a bit about hurting the feelings of other nations. Pathological liar-nations would always tend to exaggerate about things and often go on the forceful defensive whenever other nation attempts to cross-examine them. As for Turkey’s ability to “manage” to be everywhere at once, there’s no ability per se. The formulation of foreign policy of any state, and Turkey is no exception, depends on a number of variables. Among them, geographical location represents perhaps the most powerful incentive on the way foreign policy is made. This has nothing to do with “intellectual prowess” of the Turks, it is just an instinctive behavior motivated by geography.
mjm, I am not sure if we can say that Turks are pathological liars by virtue of their ethnicity, so much as that Islam is a religion that permits lying to infidels if the end is in service of Allah. (I hope someone corrects me on this if I am wrong.) And even though Turkey purports to be a secular society, theirs is a culture that developed over centuries of societal discrimination and stratification along ethnic and religious lines (millet system, unfair tax codes, Article 301, abuse of minorities, ethnic eliminationism through deportation and massacres, desecration of churches in order to create mosques and sheep holds, turning churches into museums when their is a patriarchate waiting for its return). These policies create deeply held attitudes of ethnic superiority which go unexamined until enough members of the society begin to question them. The key to changing Turkey is in enlightening individual Turks to the pathological attitudes that they subscribe to which allow theirs to be a weak democracy, ultra-nationalist society and not quite EU ready.
Incorrigible Karekin says: “Your methods haven’t worked – plain and simple.” Boyajian responded perhaps best of all of us to that in “Akhtamar: Wrong Church, Wrong Pew!”: “There is no doubt that our goal has not yet been achieved, but Armenians who blame other Armenians without recognizing that geopolitical dynamics play a major role in determining outcomes in power struggles around the world, are very short sighted, analytically deficient and verging on self-deprecation.” So, you believe “our methods” haven’t worked, hah? What’s your “method”? Come up to Turks with drooped heads, saying: “Yeah, we know you slaughtered our nation, mutilated men, women, children, and elders, raped virgins in front of their families, burnt and buried human beings alive, left hundreds of thousands of living people starve to death in the desert, slit pregnant women’s bellies, crashed newborns’ heads against the wall, wiped out virtually all remnants of our ancient civilization, appropriated our lands, pastures, houses, and properties, stole our bank accounts and insurance indemnities, but that’s OK, pals, why won’t we just forget everything overnight and befriend you? Haven’t you undergone a miraculous metamorphosis from being nomadic savages to a truly secular, democratic, repentant, religiously tolerant, life-valuing nation? That’s OK, pals, that you still deny that your grandparents have committed a heinous crime against humanity and for 95 years avoid taking responsibility for it, moreover, aggressively hamper foreign governments’ genocide recognition resolutions, fund lewd scholars to write anti-genocidal accounts, harass, deport, and kill your own intellectuals who speak the truth, and even distribute DVDs to schools showing young kids how bloodthirsty, dreadful, atrocious Armenians slaughter millions of so innocent, compassionate for other peoples’ lives Turks. Even though you haven’t progressed an inch in realizing what unrecoverable damage you’ve done to the whole nation, why won’t we just be friends without regard for 1.5 million of people slaughtered, 1 million of others forcibly deported, 80 percent of Armenian lands occupied, and 95 years of denying the crime? What…? Why do we now wish to befriend after decades of rightful indignation against you? Well, you know, we’re now employing a “new method” so graciously offered to us by a self-deprecating person by the name of Karekin.”
By the way MJM, I am so happy that you are joining this forum from Armenia. I hope we will have more and more of our brothers and sisters in Armenia join these sites. They’re input/thoughts are very important. I am very thankful for the Internet technology and sites such as AW that provide us a place/opportunity to come together from all over to world and carry conversations such as this.
Regarding the Turkish nation…. yes I know they are pathological liars… I was not the bit surprised when they came up with a predictable “technical difficulties” excuse, and changed their minds about placing the cross on Holy Cross church, after making the promise and waiting for everyone to buy their plane tickets. Very predictable. Very typical. However, the saying goes that “you can learn something from anyone”. Being the patological liars that consecutive Turkish governments have been, they also were successful and bold to recognize/seize opportunities and maximize negotiations. We, the first Christians of the world, have been at the other end of the spectrum, always doing what was honorable etc. But if we look around us… none of the Christian leading countries came to our help…on the contrary they are all Turkey’s partners. Russia’s Stalin gave Karabagh to Azerbaijan. Russia can solve the problem of Karabagh in an instant by reversing Stalin’s deed and acknowledging Karabagh’s sovereignty. But that won’t be beneficial to Russia. The Americans granted us our lands back, and then went back on their promise when they realized they will gain more geopolitically if they let Turkey keep our lands…. I wonder who gave them that idea…
More recent “Political” moves (lies) come to mind… President Obama promised on record that he will recognize the Armenian Genocide, when he needed the millions the Armenian-Americans donated towards his campaign… we know how that went when he got elected.
Bottom line guys… we can’t just keep on getting scr…ed by everyone… we must be doing something wrong. We need to analyze what is working with the times we are living in, and what is making us more predictable and vulnerable. We can’t just ask the world to do the right thing. We need to have benefits to offer them in return. Turkey and Russia, left us a piece of landlocked land with no access to sea. Turkey has been blockading us for the last 15 years, with the hopes that more Armenians will emigrate and the country will fall apart. We have to come up with ways to improve the quality of life of Armenians in Armenia by controlling oligarchy, by creating a free economy, new industries and jobs…. We need to invest in Armenia’s Tourism industry (check out the Tatev project) and promote our motherland from all over the world. Armenia already has the Human Resources that will promote it all over the Globe… the Diaspora.
Oops… “their input and thoughts” not “They’re input and thoughts”… sorry…
Gina
I think you misunderstood my answer. Anyhow, this is my opinion.
mjm
if you from innumerable questions you posed to me have one I have not answered, please repeat it. It is better than me going back and try to guess what question you have in mind
about my writing in these discussions. I do exactly as the others, as I look from debate to debate and find many of the same people. I express my opinions because I hold it is an important subject
Well said Karo. Some people on this site are advocating new approach, claiming we need to think out of the box. These are the same people that are insisting that we need to peel ourselves off of victim mentality and yet they are the ones who are bowing their heads to Turkish ploys. I’m sorry, kissing Turkey’s A.. can not be considered a new approach.
Ragnar,
I am not sure what you are trying to get at with you questions. Your fallacy is that you make it sound like I am the only Armenian on this planet. While I take a strong position on justified Armenian demands from Turkey. there are many other Armenians who are engaged in a variety of actiivities with so-called “liberal,” “tolerant” or “sympathetic” Turks. As long as these Armenians are helping Turks learn about the historical facts and our just demands, I have no problem with such activities. I am opposed, however, to a Genocide commission because I don’t need a commission to tell me, a desdendant the Genocide victims, that there was an Armenian Genocide. This is not an academic exercise for me. You and others could study the Genocide, if you wish, but do not ask me to study whether there was a Genocide or not.
By the way, you promised to send you a copy of an article you were writing a few years ago. You asked for my permission to quote from one of my columns. I gave you my permission, but you never sent me a copy of your article. So I do not know what you quoted me as saying. I see that since then you have migrated from Muge Gocek’s armworkshop to the Armenian Weekly. What happened? Did you get kicked out of armworkshop. Did you irritate even the so-called “liberal” Turks to such a degree that they had to kick you out of their website?
“mjm
if you from innumerable questions you posed to me have one I have not answered, please repeat it.”
Ragnar,
don’t you worry. I will help you with find the question. Go to “Armenian Kids Made to Leave Sourp Khatch” and read mjm’s question of 9/5 (it’s the third most resecnt comment on the article, I believe). The following link should take you right there
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/08/21/armenian-kids-made-to-leave-sourp-khatch-in-aghtamar/
I am sure you know what the question is that we expect you to answer. You just pretend not to remember because there is no reasonable answer that you can give at this point without contradicting all your stories.
Apres Katia jan.. I am with you 100% on your last comment.
I also agree with you on the comment directed to Harb…..
I believe our wealthy should invest in Armenia as much as possible… that should be one of the most immediate step to rebuild our economy…. If I had the money, I would definintely do that…
I love your last statement Katia jan.. very true..
Karo.. I share your thoughts exactly…mersi..:)
Perouz- glad we can share a laugh together.. :)
Have a wonderful day…
Gayane
It’s amazing to me that some people here can be asking the world to recognize the pain of Armenians (which I admit is very real and deserves recognition), while at the same time hurling an endless barrage of insults and racist comments at those you want to give you that recognition. You’re selling a concept and a point of view – and insulting those you want to come to your side isn’t very effective – trust me. Policies and actions are valid targets, but not humans, at least if you don’t want to be a target yourself. What about ‘do unto others’? Isn’t that a cornerstone of our faith? Have any of you ever read the book, How to Make Friends and Influence People? You might try it. Well worth reading. As you have seen, the lack of basic dignity and respect shown here will often be mirrored by those you most hope to persuade.
“…hurling an endless barrage of insults and racist comments at those you want to give you that recognition [of the pain of Armenians].”
Who exactly do you have in mind? Who do we insult that we want to come to our side? Turks, for Christ’s sake? How? Demonstrate just one substantial move on their part so we, ungrateful Armenian saps, would finally stuff it into our dumb heads that by refusing to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia, closing the common border, strangling the Republic by the blockade, dispatching military advisors to Azerbaijan, denying to admit the crime of genocide, hindering its international recognition, harassing and killing their own human rights activists, distributing DVDs to the schoolchildren showing Armenians massacring poor Turks, or transforming one out of 3000 ancient Armenian churches into a museum, Turks “want to give us that recognition and come to our side.”
TYPO: The line in my earlier posting, “you promised to send you…” should be “you promised to send me….”
just a minute now, Karekin. You have really hit a new low here. Armenians are not “selling a concept and a point of view.”We don’t need to “sell” anything. We are stating documented historical fact. The International Association of Genocide Scholars, whose members are intellectuals associated with universities around the world, long ago made it clear that the genocide of the Armenian people is a historical truth. Please, don’t embarrass yourself by attempting to pit your intellect against that of such an august body of scholars in the study of genocide and holocaust.
If we were to “do unto others” as you so ridiculously suggest, we would murder 2 million turks, pillage and rape them. Turks do not live in the Diaspora except by choice. We live here as a result of their barbaric slaughter of our people which goes back many generations before 1915.
Please also be well advised that we are not interested in winning the friendship of turks. nor do we think in terms of “influencing” them. As gayane so pointed said “iranq irants ESH nen qshum” or ” Chor glux”…
Karekin,
We are demanding that our human rights be tolerated and our people’s property rights be respected under accepted norms of international law. Is that too much to demand from a fascist government whose underhanded policies and offensive actions towards our people and our country for decades have consistently and blatantly undermined mutual trust and respect since illegally appropriating our assets?
How do you think an unrepentant perpetrator of genocide is best able to repair its relations with our people? Is transforming our Church into a money making enterprise to fill their own coffers with more ‘blood money’ really their best effort at reconciling our relations? Does that sound friendly and genuine to you? If you perceive these types of actions to be genuine and friendly, I can just imagine what you would consider to be fraudulent and hostile.
We are not looking for friends Karekin. And we are NOT “selling a concept and a point of view” (you really sounded like a denier there, be careful next time not to show your cards to that many Armenians on this forum…). This is not a business proposition. And this is not about influence peddling. Its about a government being courageous enough to live with truth and the consequences of that truth.
Remember, in order to be able to reason with people, the people your conversing with need to be able to to listen first. Even Dale Carnegie knows that. And we all know Turkey is not yet ready to enter the listening stage of their development. It’s still stuck in the act now, reason (lie) later stage. Indeed, a sad yet realistic truth.
btw the books title is “How to Win Friends and Influence People”.
Karekin,
Over 95 years “Armenian Genocide” of Turkey become unnecessary tools and subject within various Turkish leadership and circles..yet, I agree with you, most Turkish innocent population have no idea, what happened to their Christian populations, some may even have Armenian or other Christian blood..
I have to admit, that we should have never insult Turkish population…it is their leadership who chose to be “anti Armenian” on behalf of Turkish population, and they are very much alive in this forum..
Those individuals, who are part of Turkish Government intelligence team, are targeting civilian infrastructure of Turkey, feed them with hatred information about Armenians, especially “dashnaks” and other none related subjects.
Their immediate goal is to falsify and distort the history and seed hatred disease into their population minds and souls, in order to harvest their immediate political goals of future, for their selfish political propaganda interest..
Gina
The link you gave me leads to a post by mjm posing a question regarding the arrests of Armenians on april 24, towards the end of his post-
I think mgm should confirm that this is the question he is referring to.
Apart from this, to my mind Karekin has a cogent point when he refers to the “hurling of accusations” against those from whom you want an apology. By the way: I was asked back in spring in the debate on the articule on Davutoglu why I hadnt done fieldwork with Armenians (I have done fieldwork in Turkey). I want now to say that I regard this debate here in the “Armenian weekly” as a kind of fieldwork. I try to get acquainted with a way of thinking and a way of responding in debates. A possible summing up on my part: A big segment, possibly the majority, of participants on the Armenian side seem to feel that they can only honestly and determinedly defend their cause by way of levelling accusations and offensive interpretations that are launched as absolute truths.
I am by now accustomed to it but if I were to make synopsis of the “way of arguing of the Armenians participants in the debate in “Armenian weekly””, I would use your comment, Gina, as an example of a negative aspect (there are also positive ones). You write: You just pretend not to remember because there is no reasonable answer that you can give at this point without contradicting all your stories”.
We never discussed before, Gina, and your remark is remarkable for its lack of courtesy, and also your alleged access to an understanding of my motives and even that “I pretend not to remember”. Fantastic!
Because I am genuinely interested in your Armenian cause and discuss/quarrel with Turkish friends fairly frequently about it, I participate in these discussions. I also learn a lot and have to try to be updated on the late Ottoman history. I also lecture on this in the University of Oslo I and would be doing a bad job if I did not use time disucssing with Armenians. But at some point i must say that I am amazed and saddened at the style of debate of many of the participants. There are important exceptions to this barrage of insults – people doing fieldwork must adopt to the local mores regarding how outsiders are treated – it is hardly a sign of self confidence if they are badly treated – but since this is the first time we discuss, Gina, I will ask you really in full seriousness to reconsider your assertion: You just pretend not to remember because there is no reasonable answer that you can give at this point without contradicting all your stories. “. I believe this style which you exemplify here, is part of the reality prompting Karekin to ask his question, a quite sensible question….how would you fare in a discussion with liberal Turks – those who are close to providing the apology but also are not sure, and maybe will disagree on some points? – if you adopt this style the moment you disagree with them on some point? Would you convert more Turks?
Harut
Nice to meet a person here who is not anonymous…..
the article I was planning never materialized. Otherwise you would have receved a copy. Yes, you and I had a discussion at that time, a quite amicable one, so I do not understand your present tone. Yes, they – those who organized the listserve- kicked me out for very strange reasons. About who participated and liberal Turks in this discussion forum I have no comment, since a prerequisite of participation was not to divulge details on the discussions. –
I have one question: werent you also kicked out by Suny, Gochek and Libaridian? You and I at that time discussed privately the question of leakages from the assumed internal discussion forum. I have the copy of our discussion, I believe. I can paste it here, but of course I need your permission. I have nothing to hide. I even found a copy of one of my posts at that time in which I support your idea of demanding reparations, but with certain qualifications.
At that time you wrote me: “You have your convictions and I have mine”. This represented a very commendable attitude to my mind. However, your tone now disappoints me.
About my views on the commission, see my post to Gina. If anything here is not clear i will be happy to answer. But your comment – I dont need a commission – is not relevant to my view of the matter. About my reasons to be here, see earlier posts and what I say in the long debate following the artcile “What Davutoglu fails to understand”. But again – I like that you appear under your full name. So far I only met Ayda Erbal who did the same in the debates here in “Armenian weekly”.
Hoping all is well
Ragnar Naess
When you try to force a square peg into a round hole, the only way you can do it is to trim the corners. As Armenians, we need to learn that lesson. I don’t care how many demands we have…no one responds to demands, especially if they become increasingly angry and hostile 95 years after the fact. If you want respect, you need to give respect, even to those you may not admire, especially if they have something you want and you hope to get it. You may say there is no negotiation, no debate, no discussion…and that’s the exact point where you fail…at the very beginning…because it is a false premise – even if you have all the facts on your side. Every issue has two sides or perhaps more, especially if there are two people involved, whether you like it or not. You do not live in Armenian bubble, and if you think you do, you will fail at this. You cannot force your point of view on anyone against their will…because you need them to buy into your concepts, your ideas and your thesis in order to have success. To some degree, this is about education, not about bludgeoning people into ideological submission. Learning the art of negotiation and strategy is a valuable skill, and only those who’ve mastered them can be successful in the realm of human interaction. So stop the begging, pleading and harrassing…as these are useless characteristics that are not effective when it comes to reaching Armenian goals. I want to see Armenians succeed at this as much as anyone else, but again, a change of tactics is in order if that is going to ever happen.
“I think mgm should confirm that this is the question he is referring to.”
“Gina, I will ask you really in full seriousness to reconsider your assertion: You just pretend not to remember because there is no reasonable answer that you can give at this point without contradicting all your stories. ” ”
Ragnar,
beating around the bush? Why do you need a confirmation from mjm? You were actively participating in the debate. A simple question was asked that made you uncomfortable and you disappeared. What do you expect me to think? Don’t you agree that any believable answer is going to contradict your previous argumemnts? If not, simply answer the question now. Why do you need permission from mjm?
Let’s say mjm is busy now and cannot confirm. May I please ask you the exact same question myself? I confirm that I ask the same question. I confirm one more time that I ask the same exact question. If you answer, I will reconsider my statement and apologize. If you don’t, let me know please how else I should interpret your refusal to answer the question.
“Because I am genuinely interested in your Armenian cause” Somehow, I find it hard to believe.
“discuss/quarrel with Turkish friends fairly frequently about it” If Murat and Robert aare among those friends, I don’t remember you dissecting any of their statements with the same zeal and persistency that you show to us.
You don’t have to try and convince us that you “don’t care about how many demands we have” Karekin. If anything is clear to us all from your writings thus far, its that you not only don’t care about our demands, you would eliminate them if you could (reparations for example). But you can’t. Why? Because the majority of Armenians don’t share your defeatist approach in our dealings with Turks, especially after 95 offensive years of the same trite Turkish propaganda.
Karekin your living in a hypothetical bubble of supposed ‘Turkish tolerance’. You are basing your comments on the far fetched assumption that Turks are not limited by what they can say, write and think in Turkey. You may have overlooked this minute detail but ‘Turkish tolerance and freedom’ is a figment of your imagination. Do you consider Article 301 another example of a ‘friendly’ gesture of ‘genuine’ Turkish ‘respect’ shown towards those whom they seek to converse with?
You place such a high premium on “negotiation, debate and discussion” of the Armenian Genocide with Turks when in fact these same people – that Armenians are supposed to cradle in our arms and spoon-feed the truth too – are prohibited by law from “discussing” this topic. Since when has it been the responsibility of Armenians to re-educate all Turks to undue the Turkish governments 95 year old propaganda campaign? Let the government who fed and spun the denial campaign come clean to their OWN people and then re-educate them with the truth using their own state funds. Armenians can only do so much. Can Armenians really be expected to re-educate 70 million brainwashed Turks into believing an ‘illegal’ truth? Are we to incur that financial cost as well????
The Turkish government has insulted its own peoples intelligence by lying to them about their history. Can this be considered a violation under ‘insulting Turkishness’?
The Turkish government can be criminally liable itself, under its own Machiavellian laws, for ‘insulting Turkishness’ by insulting the intelligence of Turks with lies! Where’s a lawyer when you need one? Any supposed ‘liberal Turk’ interested in taking this one up?
Ragnar Naess: I don’t need to confirm the question, because earlier in this discussion, in the September 9, 2010 post, I myself already wrote to you: “A question of mine in ‘Armenian Kids Made to Leave Sourp Khatch Church in Akhtamar’ of September 5, 2010 is still awaiting your response.” What special invitation are you waiting for? You undoubtedly learnt a lot of sneaky tricks from the Turks. Moreover, the question was not regarding “the arrests of Armenians on April 24,” it was regarding your perverted remark: “The powers prayed on the Ottoman Empire, for instance Russia who aided the Bulgarians, and the Turks reacted by seeing Armenians as enemies who maybe wanted to repeat the ‘Bulgarian way’.” I don’t think Gina’s reminder to respond was “remarkable for its lack of courtesy,” I think your negligence to answer the question was a lack of courtesy.
Since you consider yourself a scholar, I presume you should know that fieldwork is a work done in the field to gain practical experience and knowledge through firsthand observation. Fieldwork also is the gathering of anthropological or sociological data through the interviewing and observation of subjects in the field. I’m sorry to say but I consider it unscholarly to state that “[you] regard this debate in the “Armenian weekly” as a kind of fieldwork.” As a “kind,” maybe; but as a “fieldwork” per se, hardly, until you travel to Armenia and Turkey and do fieldwork—in the classical sense of the word—in archives, libraries, and other repositories, as well as gather observation of subjects. I’d also suggest that you visit repositories of several countries whose emissaries, humanitarians, and missionaries witnessed the genocide of the Armenians, namely: Germany, Austria, Russia, the US, the UK, France, even your native Norway whose missionaries saw the consequences of Turkish slaughters.
Lastly, least of all I’d think of “converting the Turks.” It’s not my prerogative, it’s the prerogative of their government, social associations, and human rights organizations. To me, a fundamental mistake is being made here by commentators like Karekin and Ragnar Naess: it is the Turks’ prerogative to wash themselves off a stigma of the genocide-perpetrator nation and the classification “barbarous Turks,” not Armenians’. Turks need to clean themselves from within, not wait for Armenians—the bulk of whom they wiped out from the face of the earth—to come to their rescue. We won’t.
It’s derogatory to suggest that “if Turks have something we want and we hope to get it,” then “we need to give respect.” We’re not hoping to get what we want, namely: recognition of genocide, from the Turks. If they arrive at this point after 95 long years, it’d be, first and foremost, good for them. If they don’t, well, genocide is a crime against humanity, and Armenians will continue to advance the issue in world governments, international organizations, and courts. We owe no respect to a murderer-state. They owe us an apology.
Ragnar, I just want to let you know that Armenians, on his site and other sites, are willing to discuss calmly, openly and politely with Turks (or Norwegians) who are sincerely exploring the truth. It is genocide denial that makes the hair on the back of the neck stand up. It is those who engage in a pseudo-academic analysis of well-established facts for the purpose of explaining why Turks did what they did, that stir the anger of those who seek justice. It is smokescreens that obscure facts that are met with impatience and distrust by Armenians. If you have received undue contempt and been subjected to undeserved accusations, i do apologize. But you continually align yourself with those who work to water-down the truth of the genocide. And you fail to tell the uncouth boor Robert when he is out of line and offensive or argue with Murat when he distorts history. What kind of reception do you expect? Should we help you practice/develop your arguments for a future Turkish apologist’s book or lecture by deceptively being drawn in by your pseudo-conciliatory language which amounts to non-commital emptiness. Your goal is not clear after all these months…
Sorry if years of deception and blatant disregard of justice has made us a bit “sensitive.” Like a beaten dog, we can’t help but bare our teeth and growl when we sense danger.
mjm
you wrote:”A vivid example of such one-sided influence (Turkish influence, RN) is found in the statement as follows: “The powers prayed on the Ottoman Empire, for instance Russia who aided the Bulgarians, and the Turks reacted by seeing Armenians as enemies who maybe wanted to repeat the ‘Bulgarian way’. This is cause and effect.” It’s like saying: “A group of policemen entered my neighbors’ house and evicted them, and because of that my neighbors intruded my house and slaughtered all the members of family: newborns, kids, women, and ailing elders.”
Now your “it is like saying…” is not very enlightening. First, to make this a kind of parallel you must add that you and your neighbour belong to the same group and the assailants to another. Secondly, I believe you, as so many here in the discussions, equate “cause” with “excuse” when I talk about mechanisms in history. I have many times here emphasized that this is not so. the theme we were discussing were the causes of events. –Unfortunately people’s experiences may lead to quite disproportionate responses. Many of the Circassians who were ethnically cleansed in 1864 and ended up in Anatolia viewed Armenians fighting for their rights as dangerous enemies, indeed deadly dangerous enemies. This is about mechanisms, causes and effects, not about moral judgement. Morally, needless to say, the atrocities against Armenians – children, women, old men, young men – were despicable, inexcusable whatever the triggering incidents and ideas in the heads of the perpetrators
I said this because I react to the simplifications that appear here from time to time. It is interesting that Murat pointed to the alleged fact that the Selchuks were aided by Armenians in attacking the Byzantines. In a onedimensional historical view, to which I unfortunately feel, maybe mistakenly, that you adhere, such facts have no place. All Turks are bad, all Armenians good.–
Gina, Robert and Murat are not my friends. I dont know who they are. It is also not true that I do not challenge Murat. I challenged him on his comment on the “old building on Akhtamar island – why not a museum?”, but I received no answer. In earlier debates I have challenged him on the merits of Turkish history writing. But we also share some points of view.
The people mostly asking me questions and challenging me are Armenians, so for this reason you get this impression that I only debate with – or attack – Armenians. My Turkish friends are Turks in Norway. Last time I saw them I distributed the leaflet I have distributed to Norwegian tourists going to Turkey asking them to ask Turks what happened to Armenians in the Antalya area, and in Anatolia generally.
Boyajian
part of what you say I answer in my comment to Gina. My criticism also does not concern you. Certainly there are Armenians here who discuss calmly and are willing to listen to arguments.
I have in mind people who simply uncritically assume that I am on the Turkish payroll because I say that genocidal intent – in the juridical sense – in the upper ittihadist echelons are so far not proved. And then feel that they do not have to listen to my arguments. Or Msheci who held that Turks – at least some of them – are genetically determined to kill. Or you, Sylvia, who in your bizarre way presents her poems claiming that Turks are not real Muslims and also launched insults against me of the most incredible kind. Now as you understand I am not impressed by this, only saddened– But then of course there are counterexamples, for instance of mjm recently apologizing to me. And I apologize to all Armenians in the dialogue forum if I at the heat of the moment behave inconsiderately. The Armenian I apologized to latest was Harut Sassounian. This is my idea of dialogue.
I was one of the participants in the 500 posts long “What Davutoglu fails to understand” discussion that our Norwegian friend Ragnar is referring to. I have to say that I will always remember it as the most dizzying, confusing, convoluted debates that I have ever participated in. I advise mjm as well as Mr. Sassounian not to bother embroiling themselves in a discussion with Ragnar, because it will not go anywhere. The man has a talent of entrapping individuals by portraying himself as a “scientific scholar”, while his main goal is inflating his “ego”. Sorry Ragnar, you know how I feel about your style. You gave Msheci, Boyajian, Gayane and myself the goose chase of our lifetime…
Karekin,
You must be either out of your wits, or completely unaware of our history with the Turks. The “new strategy” you are talking about, is not new at all, it has been tried over and over again by none other than our ancestors. Throughout the reign of the Ottoman Empire, the Armenians tried to employ a soft friendly approach, by giving in to all of their demands/needs, we even were instrumental in drawing the Ottoman Constitution for them, but the Turkish attitude has always been “we are your masters and you should be out faithful millet” period. With all the concessions, the humiliating unfair discriminatory laws they subjected us to, their leaders never ever strayed from their abusive treatment of their Armenian subjects. To the point that they drove us crazy and made us revolt and demand fairer laws. And what happened then? They branded us as traitors, rebellers and massacred us. You cannot win with them. “Being nice” to them only means that you are officially allowing them to “take advantage of you” period. The Dashnaks were fooled by the Young Turks promises of equal civic rights when they take over the government. The Armenians went ahead and pledged their complete support of the Young Turks and helped them out during the Revolution when they toppled the Sultan. Agnouni even saved Talat’s life by hiding him in his house… And when Talat took power, he himself signed the arrest warrant and murder of Agnouni on April 24, 1915. How can you deal with people who’s laws are completely different than yours. How can you deal with a nation who’s Jihad law allows lying, abusing and murdering in the name of spreading Islamic/Turkic power. Our only hope are the modern, educated, liberal Turks and Kurds who are fighting for their own human rights in Turkey. How can you strike a deal with people, who do not think twice about reversing the deal. It has happened over and over with them… Good luck with your strategies…
Dikranagertzi, Very well said!!!
mistake: I wrote:
…..Or you, Sylvia, who in your bizarre way presents her poems claiming that Turks are not real Muslims…..
it should of course be
Or you, Sylvia, who in your bizarre way present your poems claiming that Turks are not real Muslims
“Should we help you practice/develop your arguments for a future Turkish apologist’s book or lecture by deceptively being drawn in by your pseudo-conciliatory language which amounts to non-commital emptiness.”
Boyajian,
I am afraid that’s exactly what we are doing. I can’t find any other explanation for Ragnar spending all this time here and never ever for a second doubting his convictions. I think he presented an article titled “Polarization of Discourses and Quality of Dialogue” in April, 2010, at a conference at the Univeristy of Utah. It was in “Panel IV: The Armenian Question” for which the discussant was Justin McCarty, a notorious denier of AG, the author of “Death and Exile; The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims.” (And I was wondering who were Ragnar’s mentors.) God knows what he is telling in his article but my impression is that he has already taken his stance on the issue and is not going to suddenly change it no matter how long we discuss. I do academic research myself (not on the issue of AG) and I don’t see any genuine interest in him. It’s just a job he does.
Following an earlier discussion that you and others had with Ragnar, I had decided not to fall into the trap of providing him with material for his “scholarly” activities, since his intentions did not seem earnest. Somehow I started talking to him. It’s up to you what you want to do but I am totally out of this. This is it for me.
I would disagree with you that it is about religion, It is about Turkish nationalism and that’s all it is. If Turks put their religion first, how do you explain the Kurdish situation. If you are talking about Muslims as a whole, why did the Arab Muslims welcome us into their lands?
(http://www.armenian-genocide.org/Affirmation.4/current_category.1/affirmation_detail.html)
I do agree that the key to change is target Turkish individuals, human rights organizations, etc. Don’t forget these people are raised the same as us. From when they are children they are taught that it was the Armenians fault of what happened and that we were traitors to the empire and a danger. Imagine growing up in this way, it is very hard to get minds to change. I know that since I was a child I grew up hearing about the Genocide and what the Turks did, from Church to School to Scouts, etc. This issue has been pushed deep into the minds of both Armenians and Turks. So its best to use patience and not hate when trying to deal with Turks and educate them.
Ragnar,
Your incessant pedantry is a bore. And an insult to the memory of the dead. If you have something to add to Ottoman history, or Genocide research, then publish it, and let your peers have at it. You try to roll over lay people, and they’re crushing you at every turn.
In the meantime, I recommend that the posters here avoid and ignore you. You thrive, it seems, on lecturing Turks and Armenians from the lofty heights of some Norwegian Junior College. Your scholarship us unknown and unheralded.
Dwell that brain on this: Not only did Ottomanist and former AG agnostic Donald Quataert expose the efforts Turkey made to distort scholarship, but he also in 2000 admitted that the same pattern of killings, esp. of the men, throughout Anatolia and European Turkey implied a common plan, namely to kill Armenians because they are Armenians. Ditto for Assyrians, whom we might view as a type of control group in testing the Genocide hypothesis.
Explain to us the de Nogales admissions that were made both by Jevdet Bey and the Tigranagert Governor, to the effect that their orders were to kill all Armenians. Or perhaps the General of the Third Army’s 1919 admissions.
Maybe you can tell us what happened to the scores of thousands of Armenian, Greek and Assyrian men drafted into the OE Army, who were disarmed in 1915, and for whom no records have ever been provided. We know what happened to them. They were murdered outright or starved to death while in the Army. Wouldn’t you agree that if these men were massacred in uniform, by their officers and fellow soldiers, that might be good evidence of governmental intent to kill?
Please use your dubious gifts to afflict Turkish Nazis, leaving the descendants of the slaughtered, without access to their properties, Churches, and physical culture alone.
In the west, we know the Norwegians to have been uncommmonly brave and resolute in defending their country from Nazi Germans. You, on the other hand, would doubtless have demanded that your countrymen justify self-defense.
Hi, Ragnar – Our paths have crossed again. It’s come to my attention thanks to a fellow commentator who knows my Facebook address that in your September 11, 2010 comment, as I see it right away on the screen, you contended that [I] ‘held that Turks–at least some of them–are genetically determined to kill’ in the ‘What Davutoglu Fails to Understand’ discussion. I find it outrageous and challenge you to refer me and all commentators in this discussion to a particular comment of mine that confirms precisely, word by word, that I’ve ever said that ‘Turks–at least some of them–are genetically determined to kill.’ If you don’t, I’ll have to request moderators of this Forum to accuse you of blackmailing a fellow-commentator. I continue to visit AW from time to time, but withdrew myself from posting any further comments because, just like Gina said here, I tend not to provide you or any other genocide intent-denying individual with material for your activities whatever they might be, since your intentions don’t seem earnest. I can see that our second heavily-commented discussion left a little impact on your way of thinking. Well, then so be it, stick to your guns, and we’ll stick to ours. I’ll only emerge when the Storting will acknowledge the Armenian genocide, or when another major power—the US, Israel, or the UK—will do the same. So long.
I will say it again, though you don’t like my suggestions for a new strategy and approach toward Turkey, you just won’t admit that the standard tactics used over the last 95 years have not worked. Turkey has not acknowledged the genocide. Plain and simple. So, what new ideas do you have? Repeat: NEW ideas. I’ve heard none, just the same old lines repeated as if from mindless parrots. Moreover, you’ve fallen into the trap of stimulus and response…every action from Turkey is met with the same response. If you want to talk about a victim mentality, that defines it quite well. Until that pattern can be broken, nothing will change. It is encouraging that leaders in Armenia are exploring new approaches, but sad to see that the diaspora is largely unchanged.
Ragnar you said:
I was asked back in spring in the debate on the articule on Davutoglu why I hadnt done fieldwork with Armenians (I have done fieldwork in Turkey). I want now to say that I regard this debate here in the “Armenian weekly” as a kind of fieldwork.
how quickly you forget that THE FIRST PERSON to ask you this question over and over and over again was me on the most discussed/commented forum on AW (as Katia jan said.. the same forum that you send me, Katia, Boyajian and Msheci on a goose chase).. and the reason I asked that question Ragnar was because i caught you and your twisted game right away.. i distrusted you right away.. and to this day i don’t trust you and do not see you as someone who is credible and reliable.. you are operating on thin ice sir…… i am sorry… I knew your agenda was not pure… you gather information from these forums to use in your twisted and distorted lectures and what not.. now that is kind of disturbing as we have no idea how you are using these comments.. only God knows… and of course you consider discussing and commenting on AW as fieldwork….I say HA HA HA.. very funny indeed…
Mjm said it perfectly so i am going to copy and paste it …..
Since you consider yourself a scholar, I presume you should know that fieldwork is a work done in the field to gain practical experience and knowledge through firsthand observation. Fieldwork also is the gathering of anthropological or sociological data through the interviewing and observation of subjects in the field. I’m sorry to say but I consider it unscholarly to state that “[you] regard this debate in the “Armenian weekly” as a kind of fieldwork.”
I know I beat this one to death but i will say it again: until you do an extensive fieldwork with ARmenians and Non-ARmenians as you did with the Turks, don’t give us your comments, thoughts and what not…because as I always do, I read and dismiss as it does not stand ground.. it is a fluke…zilch…zero…
and you as I said many many times over are another type of a deniar..YOU do not believe in Genocide.. PERIOD…
Ragnar you said:
Because I am genuinely interested in your Armenian cause and discuss/quarrel with Turkish friends fairly frequently about it, I participate in these discussions
I say.. HUGEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE and ASTRONOMICAL B.S…..
Ragnar you said:
Morally, needless to say, the atrocities against Armenians – children, women, old men, young men – were despicable, inexcusable whatever the triggering incidents and ideas in the heads of the perpetrators
See what i mean???? You can’t even say the word Genocide.. your favorite words are atrocities, tragedy, catastrophy, casualties.ect ect ect… Let me correct your sentence if I may….
Morally, needless to say, The Ottoman Genocide of Western and Eastern Armenians- children, women, old men, young men- were despicable, inexcusable and morally wrong that was viciously organized and carried out by the then Turkish govt…
such a deniar…
Ragnar you said:
The people mostly asking me questions and challenging me are Armenians, so for this reason you get this impression that I only debate with – or attack – Armenians
ummmm.. duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh… of course the challengers will be Armenians..because only ARmenians know that what you present is outright wrong and twisted..only Armenians see how confused you are and how one-sided you are.. Turks love you because you are helping their cause and not he Armenians. of course they will not challenge you.. Also, you yourself told me you have off line contact with Murat and who knows maybe Robert too.. The stooges…
Ragnar you said:
Now as you understand I am not impressed by this, only saddened– But then of course there are counterexamples, for instance of mjm recently apologizing to me. And I apologize to all Armenians in the dialogue forum if I at the heat of the moment behave inconsiderately. The Armenian I apologized to latest was Harut Sassounian. This is my idea of dialogue.
Well you know what? i am saddened too..I am saddened that someone non-Turkish supports the Turkish tactics… someone who is from Norway believes with such strong beliefs what Turks fed him..even though he says he did the fieldwork himself.. HA….. and someone who thinks he is smart yet gets caught every turn he takes and continues to deny..now THAT is sad Ragnar….. but that is the reality of the matter..
oh and you should apologize to Harut Sassounian…no doubt about that…
Good Day sir..
Incorrigible Karekin – Do please elaborate on your “new strategy.” So far we’ve heard a perverted viewpoint to “show respect” to a murderer- and denialist state in order to get “what we want.” Lay out details as to how technically you envision this “new strategy” of yours can work out. Oh, and you’re dead wrong that our “standard tactics” as compared to your non-standard ones have not worked over the last 95 years. What planet do you live on? Aren’t you aware of the fact that almost 30 foreign governments and dozens of provincial governments have recognized the mass extermination of Armenians as genocide? Don’t you know that 44 state legislatures of the United States have done the same and every presidential candidate, including Barak Obama, acknowledges unambiguously that Turkish actions constitute genocide? Are you unaware of the fact that leading international and regional organizations, such European Parliament, the EU, and the UN Commission on Minority Rights, have done the same? Haven’t you come across the resolutions of reputable professional associations, such as the International Association of Genocide Scholars, admitting mass murders of Armenians as an act of genocide? Aren’t you aware that hundreds of Nobel laureates signed petitions recognizing the killings as genocide? Don’t you know that a number of advocacy groups and human rights organizations did the same? Haven’t you read the accounts of scores of genocide scholars—Armenian and mostly non-Armenian—as well as historians and international lawyers recognizing the annihilation of Armenians as genocide? If these are not results of our “standard tactics” and moral integrity of these individuals and organizations, then what is it?! “Turkey has not acknowledged the genocide?” Well, the Hell with the murderer-state and its acknowledgment. Plain and simple. Genocide is a crime against humanity punished by the UN Convention, it’s not just an individual prerogative of a perpetrator-state to admit it, it’s a prerogative of the community of nations to admit and condemn the crime committed by an individual state, and the number of recognizing countries is growing. We don’t have to show respect to a denialist state. It’s in Turks’ best interest to relieve themselves from the burden and shame of a genocide-perpetrator nation, not Armenians’ obligation to “educate” them. We owe them nothing: THEY owe us an apology. We haven’t wiped out 1.5 million people from the face of the earth: THEY have. We haven’t stolen their ancestral homeland: THEY have. We haven’t slaughtered, raped, mutilated innocent human beings: THEY have. What “respect” are you calling upon us to show to these barbarians? And exactly what “every action from Turkey is met with the same response [of stimulus and response]? What honest, repentant action is it that Turks have done that Armenians didn’t appreciate? Established diplomatic relations with Armenia? Lifted 17-year old blockade? Opened common border? Ceased to tie the issue of normalization of bilateral relation with an unrelated issue of Artsakh? Stopped sending military advisors and sharing intelligence with the Azeries to the detriment of Armenians? Ceased efforts at hampering genocide resolutions across the globe? Stopped harassments and killings of their intellectuals who speak the truth about the Armenian genocide? Re-opened Armenian churches and monasteries—or whatever remain of them as a result of the cultural genocide, to be exact—to serve their primary goal as spiritual centers not museums? Placed them under the jurisdiction of the Armenian Patriarchate in Constantinople? REPEAT: What is it the Turks have done so far that we, ungrateful Armenians, haven’t recognized and reciprocated? Victim mentality my a**, it’s exactly your mentality that falls under this definition. Had you lived during 1915-1921, you’d almost certainly put your head into a noose of the Turkish assassins not partake in resistance movements.
And for the thousandth time, leaders in Armenia, repeat: are not exploring new approaches with Turkey. All initiatives at rapprochement, be it notorious TARC or defeatist Protocols have been imposed on both sides by external forces. One should be blind not to see this. And don’t you dare to join your Turks in their futile attempts at dividing the Republic and Diaspora Armenians. We are one nation, having one history and one destiny. Nothing will come out of this. The more we’re being pushed to the wall, the more resistant we’ll be. Don’t forget that.
Hi Msheci,
the passage I am referring to is the following which you wrote on june 7:
“We’re dealing with the Turks, a nation-state that appeared on the world map, as a result of nomadic invasions from Mongolian steppes and destruction of the natives in Asia Minor, only in the 11th-14th centuries AD. Their’ modern’, as they call it, state was formed only in the beginning of the 20th century. Essentially, these people, not all of course, inherited in their genes the mentality of their savage forefathers: kill to gain new pastures; demolish ancient structures of the natives and build mosques;….”.
Now of course the expression “….inherited in their genes the mentality of their savage forefathers: kill to….” is not exactly the same as “being genetically determined to…” but it amounts to more or less the same in my understanding.
As far as I remembered I returned to your words on this topic several times during our discussion following the Akcam article on Davutoglu, but i never eceived any satidsfying answer.
I wish I could say something mopre conciliatory, but this remark of yours made a very negative impression on me.
Gina
Do you infer something about my presentation from the fact that Justin McCarthy presided the session?
Because the presentations may be turned into articles that may be published I am not free to circulate the presentation, but I can say as much as the following: the main input is a comparison between Anaide Ter Minassian’s treatment (article “Van, 1915”) of the fighting at Van and the analysis of the same events in the book “The Armenian rebellion at Van” by Justin McCarthy and his associates. I criticise both versions for failing to relate to the main points in the opposite narrative. In a way my criticism of McCarthy is stronger because he cites Ter Minassian fairly much, but fails to relate to central aspects of her narrative, whereas Minassian wiriting earlier obviously does not cite McCarthy, but fails to relate to the alleged documentation on Armenian preparations for aid to the Russian army in a serious way. And the main message is that in so far as we intend to debate in a scholarly fashion we must relate explicitly to the main tenets of our adversaries.
Karekin there’s quite a difference between people with a “victim mentality” and those of us with a justice mentality.
Those with a “victim mentality” (a.k.a. “slave mentality”) advocate a defeatist approach in our dealings with the Turkish government and are usually the same crowd who thought an independent Armenia and the liberation of Artsakh were a pipe dream. They also tend to be the first to fall head over heels over offensive propaganda ploys that Mr. Sassounian has correctly identified over the years as ‘bait and switch’ tactics. This crowd of obedient slaves, it turns out, is also Ankara’s most fertile picking ground in their search for the next top Armenian turncoat, who they plan to place on a podium for hire in order to showcase to the world as the so called “good Armenian.”
Those with a justice mentality on the other hand, are usually demonized by people such as you, for merely demanding what belongs to us as legal guardians of our own assets. We do not believe that the passage of time has undermined our legitimate rights to our assets which by the way are backed by accepted tenets of international law. And we demand that the human rights of our people living in Turkey today be respected, tolerated and protected. While those with this mentality do accept that new strategies and approaches with Turkey are required in our battle for truth and justice, we neither acquiesce nor endorse the Turkish governments every whim to insult and provoke Armenians with insincere disparaging actions cloaked in pseudo-conciliatory rhetoric. They also acknowledge that much has been accomplished over the decades in not only recovering from a nearly successful attempt at race extermination but also in liberating some of our people’s mindset from the slavish yokes of empires past.
Karekin, you claim to be “encouraged” by how “leaders in Armenia are exploring new approaches” with Turkey.
Is slavish adherence to Turkey’s attempts to re-subjugate our people your idea of an “encouraging” “new” approach with Turkey? For how many more years are you willing to take orders from an unrepentant foreign government intent on dividing and conquering our people? The strategy you’re advocating was tried and tested by your great grand parents and their ancestors for nearly 600 years. Guess what? It culminated in the Armenian Genocide. This was the product of 600 years of subjugation and persecution. Expecting anything different by embracing that same approach today IS INSANE. Advocating a defeatist approach with our Turkish neighbors would only repeat our history. You, Karekin, should heed your own advice and realize that “repeating the same actions over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity.”
How may I ask, have Armenian leaders been “exploring new approaches” with Turkey?
Has the Armenian President demanded reparations for the Armenian Genocide from the unrepentant Turkish government? Has the RA officially demanded an apology and the return of our occupied lands? Has the RA launched legal action against the Republic of Turkey to reclaim our people’s assets from illegal appropriation?
And what exactly have you been “encouraged” by Karekin?
The fact that now instead of Turkish authorities laughing behind our backs in Ankara they can laugh AT our ‘leaders’ while sipping coffee WITH our ‘leaders’ WHILE IN THE PRESENCE of international dignitaries IN Yerevan? I guess that can be considered “encouraging” if those of us still afflicted by slave mentality are looking for a NEW LOW!
Wake up Karekin. You are fast asleep my friend.
Well, Ragnar, if you agree that the expression “….inherited in their genes the mentality of their savage forefathers: kill to….” is not exactly the same as “being genetically determined to kill…,” then, I guess, there was no need to twist words and the meaning that I put in them. I don’t think it does you credit. As for your understanding of the passage, it’s incorrect first and foremost because the passage particularly referred to a nation-state and not ordinary individual Turks, as you portrayed it. Secondly, the passage clearly refers to invasions of their nomadic forefathers that, as I’m sure you’re aware, brought destruction to half of the globe and reached as far as the walls of Vienna. And lastly, it should have been understood from the last part: “inherited in their genes the mentality of their savage forefathers: kill to gain new pastures; demolish ancient structures of the natives and build mosques,” that I particularly referred to how the Ottoman Turks behaved in regard to Armenians during a particular period of 1915-1923. Yes, just like their savage forefathers, having inherited in their genes the mentality of their 11th-14th centuries’ destructionist invaders, Ottomans, too, forcibly deported Armenian natives; gained their pastures, houses, properties, bank accounts, and insurance indemnities; demolished their cultural heritage or transformed their structures into mosques. Yes, I tend to draw parallels between their forefathers’ behavior back in 11th-14th centuries and their Ottoman predecessors’ behavior in the early 20th century. You have a problem with that? It saddens me that virtually little changed in the mentality and behavior of their nation-state in the course of the 11th to the beginning of the 20th century. And the only explanation I can find—and I don’t claim to be correct—is that it might be the genes of their nomadic invaders that Ottoman Turks were bearing when exterminating innocent human beings in 1915. However, this speculation of mine and your portrayal of it as if it referred to modern-day Turks who are “being genetically determined to kill” sit on divergently different poles and is utterly distorting in essence.
Ragnar Naess: Since you intend to “in so far debate in a scholarly fashion,” do bear in mind that Van resistance of April 19 began after Armenians who were enlisted in the Ottoman armies were disarmed and after Armenians of Zeitoun were forcibly deported en masse on April 8, that is almost two weeks before the events in Van. Shortly after the expulsions from Zeitoun, other Cilician Armenian towns suffered a similar fate. Therefore, whatever you may refer to as “alleged documentation on Armenian preparations for aid to the Russian army” runs the gantlet of criticism, because Ottoman Turkish atrocities aimed at forced expulsions and accompanying mass murders of Armenians had already begun by the time of Van resistance. Another indication of a planned incitement at Van is the fact that the chief provocateur and ugly executioner in the province was Jevdet Bey, the brother-in-law of Enver Pasha, one of the three main premeditators and perpetrators of the genocide of Armenians within the inner circles of the Ittihadists. In this capacity, Jevdet’s extremism towards Armenians was explicit. A man of dangerously unpredictable moods, friendly one moment, ferociously hostile the next, capable of treacherous brutality, he had been nicknamed “Nalband Bey” (in Turkish: “Lord Blacksmith”) after atrocities committed at Bashkale in which he had nailed horseshoes onto his victims’ feet. Your argument on Armenian “serious preparations for aid to the Russian army” at Van will be bombarded, ridiculed, and ultimately defeated with no sweat by serious historical scholarship based on an easily-verifiable fact that the Ottoman authorities had already started the deportation and mass murder campaign of Armenians earlier in Cilicia.
Ragnar Naess: As I see it, you failed to respond to my question of September 5, 2010 in “Armenian Kids Made to Leave Sourp Khatch Church in Akhtamar.” What you did, you just extracted the “neighbor” parallel out of it, hazily dropped an inarticulate remark thus offering nothing “enlightening,” as you say. Secondly, I don’t think that many here in the discussions equate “cause” with “excuse” when you talk about “mechanisms in history.” Rather, from the tone of your writings we get an impression that you’re prone to finding excuse for Turkish actions, albeit tacitly. Of course, “people’s experiences may lead to quite disproportionate responses,” and you hastily supported this argument by this remark : “Many of the Circassians who were ethnically cleansed in 1864 and ended up in Anatolia viewed Armenians fighting for their rights as dangerous enemies, indeed deadly dangerous enemies.” But I won’t tire to repeat the same question over and over again, this time not about Balkan Turks, but Circassians: “ethnically cleansed by whom, for Christ’s sake, so they viewed Armenians as deadly dangerous enemies?” All Turks are not bad, and all Armenians are not saints, but the Ottoman Turkish response to the ideas of a few Armenian revolutionaries or their isolated freedom-fighting acts or retaliation against the non-stop maltreatment by the government and pillages by the Turkish and Kurdish bands, as well as the same Circassians, who would pillage the Armenian villages themselves, but God knows why would view the Armenians as “deadly dangerous enemies,” in the form of annihilation of the whole race is inadequate, to say the least! Why are you debating this trivial, obvious actuality?
God bless you Karo. I thank you with deep gratitude for summing up so accurately, for speaking out with such passion and committment, particularly in your last posting.
Pro-Turks, Turks, and citizens of a Turkey: Can you deny that your leaderships are commiting Genocides since the 19th, the 20th and now the 21st centuries (currently the Kurds) and enjoined with the Sudanese in their denials of the Darfurians Genocide – ala Turkish denials of all the Genocides committed by Ottomans and their subsequent leaderships. Slaughtering, rapings, kidnappings, torturing humans all these centuries and you – citizens of a Turkey – are not aware of your nations’ violations of any humans eliminating humans? You must wallow in this ‘title’ as the nation which promotes Genocides to steal and then to lie to world… How can you live with these lies, how can you sleep at nights, knowing your status as a people who allow such mentally misdirected leadership to continue to lie to all your citizens and to the world. Your leaderships today continue to perpetrate Genocides to gain their convoluted goals… and use the Muslim religion, distorted, for their own purposes. Lying to you, are you unaware, a nation of 70 million Turks before all the world? There is such a thing as a revolution… peoples who see and know their governments are not in sync with the civilized nations of the world… Are you not ashamed to be counted amongst the 70 millions of your citizens who still are in pursuit of eliminating humans. Your own Muslim religion is used to convince you of the need to slaughter and worse humans… Fpr all these years since your forbears came down from the Asian mountains to steal lands – eliminating peoples to steal cultures, properties, wealths that today your leaderships have built upon – as wealthy Turks. Turks are known the world over as the mentality that seeks to commit the Genocides to advance their own goals – to hell with humanity. (Mind you, not by wars – Genocides). But yet, how else shall the world see these actions of Turks – continuing Genocides still today – 2010. Too, Turkey’s relationships with all their ‘foreign relations’ are a farce – on again/off again – and the PLOYS – desperate acts of your leaderships to delay, distract and their lies abound in pursuit of ‘allies’ – none of which Turks can retain – since a Turkey cannot sign and maintain agreements with other nations… Turks are in fear of any agreements… especially the Sevres Treaty! How many centuries shall it take for the Turk to join the civilized nations of the world? Too, our young Armenian women captured to live Turkish lives. Manooshag
P.S. Nations have had revolutions against the tyranny of their governments – perhaps the Turk leaders are careful not to ‘upset’ your citizenry for they have mis-educated students with the lies of their true history with the omissions by your own Turkish governments of all their Genocides against the Syrians, Assyrians, Greeks and the Armenians… all non-Muslims. Now, today the Kurds – Today the brave Turks use fighter planes and chemical warfare against the Kurds… For the Turk does not declare wars – Genocides are easier, just overwhelm the unarmed and kill, rape, kidnap, slaughter pregnant women and toss their embryos to catch upon their swords, and too, hammer horse shoes to the victims feet… torture and worse – is the true history of the Turk – which Turk leaderships delete/omit in your history books. Lately, Turkish brave accomplishment was the young 15 year old Kurd girl, supposedly tosses pebbles at a Turk policeman – she is in jail for about seven (7) years (the heinous Turkish jails) – and the big brave Turks shall be proud of this vilest accomplishment?? Thus your Turkish reputation before the world via the Turkish leaderships – cruel and vile – still unable to join the civilized nations of the world – too, still seeks to gain back their demented Ottoman empire, and more. No matter the cost for lives – still seeking to offer inhumanity to humans – at which they excell, Turkish style. M.
Getsehs Karo!
Getsehs Dikranagertsi!
We are not doing anything wrong in the pursuit of the justice due to us as the victims of 20th century’s first Genocide. Get this into your skulls. We did not ask to be massacred. We never asked Turkey to steel our lands. The perpetrator nation is the one that despite the affirmation of 30 countries and the leading authorities on Genocide, is stubbornly denying its crime and going to every length including distorting its own history and brainwashing its own people in order to avoid justice. I see merit in educating the Turkish people about the truth and especially supporting their human rights activists and honest courageous historians such as Pamuk and Ackam.
Turkey will only earn our respect when it is civilized enough to apologize and make reparations in the example of Germany. A country that with no shame enjoys the fruits of the land that it stole from a population that it massacred, a country that used the Genocide victims bank accounts, jewelry, abandonned property, business inventories and farms to fund its new Republic and armies, a country that persecutes anyone who mentions the truth and produces demolition warrants of the properties belonging to an individual who is using his God given right of expression, a country that shamelessly renovates a church as a museum and plans to charge money from the same church’s rightful owners deserves the respect of only spineless people with no integrity.
Yes, we can always improve on our diplomacy, but there is nothing to improve on our rightful claims. The claims are based on international laws and speak for themselves.
Not only should we stay firm on our rightful demands, but Armenia should stop being an enabler, and giving Turkey, Europe, the US and Israel the time, space and luxury to keep the status quo. It should stand up and oppenly demand from Turkey reparations for its crimes against the Armenian nation. What will Turkey and the rest do if Armenia demands an apology, restoration and reparation? What are we scared of? If we are on the side of the truth, we should have nothing to fear unless we are still entrenched in the slave mentality that is playing to everyone but our advantage. We have a free nation, we have our own government and we should have screamed these demands from Turkey yesterday… How is it that Armenia did not voice its outrage on the way Dink’s case is proceeding and the recent demolition warrants?
We are a victimized nation with legitimate demands for justice. Our luck, we are dealing with the most notoriously uncivilized, faceless, cheating and conniving state on the face of the earth. What kind of a government covers up the truth and reaps the benefits of murdering innocent women, children and men?
We will earn everyone’s respect when we stand up for our rights, and Turkey will earn respect when it is big enough as a nation to accept its ancestors crimes and stops all the equally criminal covering up and threatening that it is engaged in.
Rita, i think you commented to me regarding the idea that religion is not the cause of Turkish attitudes regarding mistreatment of Armenians. I agree that nationalistic chauvinism is a root cause, but i meant to say in my comment that in the case of the Turks (not all Muslims) Islam’s teachings help to provide a fertile ground in which such chauvinism can grow. I think we agree…? I do not mean to be disrespectful toward Islam.
Dikranagertzi and Karo, very strong comments. Really liked the distinction between victim mentality and justice mentality. Katia, I agree with your comment, especially your strong advocacy for standing up for our rights, which does not preclude reevaluating and re-strategizing when necessary but never compromising on the truth. I appreciate the optimistic and determined attitude in your writing. We need to persevere knowing that we are going in the right direction, even though it may be slowly. As long as we keep moving forward, I am not going to lose heart.
However, I do want to say that I think Karekin has a valid point regarding how difficult it is for the average Turk to be told they are a member of a barbaric race, especially when they have been misinformed all their lives. They do not know our shared history as we know it. In fact, they have been cutoff from this history because their alphabet was changed with the creation of the modern Turkish state; only a few select scholars know the old script and have access to historical and archival Ottoman records. They have been led to believe that we were the aggressors with nationalistic aspirations. In their view, we refused to join them in being ‘happy Turks’, aided the Russians and threatened them. None of this justifies Genocide of course or lets the Turkish government off the hook, but we could be smarter about our rhetoric and more precise in our language just by remembering these facts and consequently more effective in our dialogue with Turks. I know this challenges us to avoid repeating some of the accusations against Turks that we have all heard since we were children, but if it makes for more fruitful dialogue, I think it is worth it. Not sugar-coating, just straight forward, non-inflammatory discussion of the facts in a tone that says “We have been terribly wronged by what happened in 1915 and continue to be wronged by your nations refusal to acknowledge the genocide of 80% of Ottoman Armenians and the appropriation of their wealth and property, as well as the desecration of our historical monuments and churches. We are waiting for your nation to stop the denial and to treat us with respect and dignity by acknowledging the truth that numerous nations and genocide scholars have confirmed.”
Apres Katia jan… well said.
Karo.. bravo
Dikranagertsi- excellent post…
Msheci- i always said.. ….qefs galisa havata when I read your comments.. so glad you can join again…..
Mjm- as always.. great posts…
Thank you for everyone who believe in our Cause and stand firm and tall…
Gayane
msheci
your attempt at answer baffles me. The central point is that you talk about behavioural traits being caused by, or determined by, the genes. Is there any way you can avoid the connotation of such a statement? Who, and what political parties, and what historical movement, has argued that the behaviour of certain people is so because it is “laying in their genes”? Honestly, Msheci, I had some respect for you and I hope you will re-establish it by re-evaluing your point of view
Mjm
the point you raise is one which is central to the debate on crimes and criminology the last 150 years. the disjunction between explaining and excusing. Let me make an example: Somebody steals or murders or embezzles. In some cases you can say that this is done because of what you may call pure evil. For instance if somebody attacks a total stranger and kills him or her. Then you look if the person is insane. No, no insanity. Then you look if the person was living under strong stress and had been humiliated by others, and had a strong suppressed feeling of anger. YOU LOOK FOR EXPLANATIONS, MECHANISMS. But nothing of this kind materializes. On the contrary, the person is ostensibly well adjusted, and moreover selected his victim with cunning. Then you may conclude that what we see is unadulterated evil. There was nothing the murdered symbolized in the eyes of the perpetrator, nothing in the previous life of the perpetrator that could explain the act.
Then you take resort to the concept of pure evil. Evil is ioften defined as crime in the absense of any provocation or external explanation.
But say that the person killed the other because the other symbolized something by force of the previous experiences of the perpetrator, then this may provide an explanation, but not an excuse. But if the killed person earlier had attempted to kill the one who later murdered, then you may speak of extenuating circumstances. But still the murdered person is GUILTY. there is no EXCUSE, properly speaking. In the same way the Circassian who murdered Armenian men, and then murdered Armenian women and children so that a new generation of Armenians should not grow up, did not murder in a vacuum. The Armenians symbolized the Christian oppressions for him. The very real experiences of what the Russian army did. To answer that “Armenians did not do this to the Circassians” is immaterial. The Armenians symbolized the deadly enemy experienced in actual experience. This does not condone Turkish or Circassian acts towards Armenians, but it explains them. and if you refuse any explanation, you indirectly accuse the Turks of an absolute or pure evil. The Turks had absolutely no problems with the armenians, you say, and if the Turks had any problems is it because they were evil in the first place, they were invaders, murderers who have it in their genes, as Msheci implies (and no Armenian in the discussion objected….) .
Given this attitude of yours, mjm, I again ask: whom do you expect to convice? Not the people who have studied history and who always talk about mechanisms and developments, but maybe people who are blinded by some kind of hatred and who behave as if they are looking for the representatives of evil on earth, and then select the Armenians as their champions and Turks as their object of hatred? I know some non-Armenians, champions of the Armenian cause in Norway, who behave like this and I believe the Armenian cause is not well served by them. They interpret any attempt at explanation as an attempt at excuse. But so say that Turks did not act in 1915 out of poure evil is not an excuse.—Well, maybe I spoke too long. This is my view. The ittihadists did not act out of pure evil, but they can never be excused, and Turkey should apologize and make reparations.
Thank you Gayane and Boyajian…
Gayane you light up these conversations with your generosity…
Boyajian, the ever elegant and eloquent…
Msheci, so great to hear from you… I wouldn’t bother with you know who…
What happened to our people, was truly truly unfair, unjust and inhuman… It has now boiled down to the battle of the wills… on one side Turkey distorting, brainwashing and covering up the truth with all the resources that it has, and relying on the passing of the time and the forgetfulness of the world … on the other side is the entire Armenian people, armed with the Internet, books, documentaries, movies, historians and political activists… it is another battle of Sardarabad in a way. We are driven with the pain of every mother who abandoned her dead child under a tree, with the pain of each child who witnessed the murder of his mother, with the pain of each grandfather who walked away from the farms he nurtured with his hands, the anguish of children who were forced into slavery or orphanages and who yearned for their parents, the pain of living with unspeakable memories… these were our grandparents… and we will tell the whole world about what happened to them. We hold nothing against today’s regular Turkish citizen. We just want to inform him that there are thousands of ghosts roaming his lands. The lands that used to be theirs. They were massacred because they wanted their freedom. They were massacred because Turkey needed their lands. All we want is for the memory of these people to be respected. We want what happened to them acknowledged and reparations made to their descendants. And we want to put them to rest like every human being deserves. And if we ask for our mount Ararat back… it is only because, it has always been Armenian…
Redemption is the ultimate victory…
Katia K. great post! Our day will come because the truth always has the stronger will and reliable foundation to lean on. The lies lose their strength because lies never add value.
The one concern that I have is that we must continue to educate and instill the sense of responsibility I see on this board in our children!! Assimilation and ambivilence are Talaat’s victory. It is a personal responsibility that each of us have in the diaspora. Part of the denial strategy is to let the ravages of assimilation close the book on the genocide. Of course, they have completely misunderstood the core of what an Armenian is. But we must continue to instill in the new generations in our homes, in our churches, in our schools and in our centers. This the same responsibility that our ancestors had after continuous invasions scattered our people…only to see them regroup and regenerate. This is who we are. This is why the Turkish government will one day admit the crimes of their predecessors and account for their denial.
Once a young Armenian understands this responsibility, the torch will never be extinguished. This is our sacred mission.
The Ittihadists did not act out of pure evil? I’m sorry, but you must be joking. They decide to solve Turkey’s financial crisis by killing and deporting 25% of the population and stealing all their property and worldly goods, and you don’t think this was pure evil??? Please. Yes, it was pure evil, but it was not an act masterminded or committed by all Turks, but rather by a tiny group of largely non-Turks who hijacked the government, and saw an opportunity for themselves to exercise control over one of the world’s oldest empires, and then rise to the top in that society, by eliminating their only competition. It was calculated with precision and yes, that kind of premeditation is intrinsically evil.
Karekin: This is one rare instance in these discussions when I applaud you and generally support your argument above, except for the “non-Turk” part. I understand what you mean by it, but I firmly believe that whoever some of the inner circle of the Ittihadists were ethnicity-wise, they nonetheless represented the official government of the Ottoman Turkish empire. Besides, hundreds of thousands—if not millions—of employees of the central government and provincial administrations, local governors’ apparatus, village heads, gendarmes, army commanders and soldiers, prisoners set free with the aim of massacring Armenians, the Chettes, as well scores of ordinary pillagers, thieves, and murderers were predominantly of Turkish, and to some degree, Kurdish nationals.
Karekin
you mean that the ittihadists did what they did “in the absense of any provocation or external explanation”? This is how I understand “pure evil”
Ragnar,
I think I made myself perfectly clear in that in no way have I ever mysteriously alluded, or remotely implied, or, what is more, explicitly stated, that Turks are “being genetically determined to kill.” Yet, I can see that you again misinterpret my words in your September 13, 2010 comment, this time paraphrasing them a bit: “murderers who have it in their genes, as mscheci implies.” I hereby denounce in the strongest terms your citing of words never written by me in the order, form, meaning, or implication as you portray them. Just as nowhere in my comments have I implied any such thing in regard to ordinary Turks, I won’t deny that I tend to draw parallels between the behavior of Seljuks and Mongols and the behavior of their Ottoman successors with regard to destructive 11th-14th centuries invasions in the first case and early 20th century genocidal extermination in the second. I don’t claim to be right because I’m not a geneticist, but this is how I feel based, for example, on my reading into Gabriel García Márquez’ “100 years of solitude,” where he depicts with brilliance that in closed societies generations repeat themselves. I’d like to close this exchange of views, and to request that you refrain in the future from twisting my words. I might be wrong, but that’s just my speculation. Otherwise, I know that a human being is a product of nature and nurture, i.e. social upbringing. And if this is what you believe, too, then this time you’d have to explain to all of us: if the Ittihadists did not act out of pure evil; if the Ittihadists did not act out of mentality genetically similar to destructionist Seljuks and Mongols; if the Ittihadists were expelled from and subjected to murder by other freedom-fighting nations but poured their vengeance on a nation that played no role in their expulsions or murders; then a natural question arises as to what kind of weird people in the Ottoman government are we dealing with?
Farewell.
Thank you, Gayane, Katia K. et al, for your kind words. Having my hands full with other important things, I know I’ll “pop up” again on these pages in the future. For now, all the very best to all of you.
Ragnar, I will be honest and admit that I did not completely follow everything in your last post above. However, you are incorrect when you state that no Armenian objected to the idea that Turks are genetically predisposed to kill. This is untrue. I objected to this statement and asserted that I believe behaviors and attitudes about using violence to solve problems are passed down from generation to generation but are not necessarily genetically determined. I believe Katia did as well. Please check our previous dialogue. Also, you may be misunderstanding Msheci’s idea. You should allow him to explain before you permit your own prejudice about Armenians to creep into your comments. Armenians have a common cause but we are not a monolithic body with one voice.
Also, I agree that to explain an act doesn’t mean that you excuse the act. I am happy that you state that “the ittihadists can never be excused and that Turkey should apologize and make reparation. “ Can you clarify what you think ittihadists can not be excused from and what Turkey must apologize for? I know we don’t see eye to eye on the explanations or mechanisms you offer, but let’s clarify our terms for the sake of dialogue.
Ragnar, as for pure evil… please clarify. Do you mean to say if there are extenuating circumstances, it diminishes the evilness of the act? If so, are we talking about imperfect or incomplete evil? If circumstances can predispose one to commit evil, can we say that one’s cultural milieu can be such a contributing factor?
Ragnar Naess: First, I raise no point, I just happen to respond to the one you raised earlier in another discussion. Shall I repeat it? Here it is: “The powers prayed on the Ottoman Empire, for instance Russia who aided the Bulgarians, and the Turks reacted by seeing Armenians as enemies who maybe wanted to repeat the ‘Bulgarian way’.” I offered my extensive comments on this perverted remark in “Armenian Kids Made to Leave Sourp Khatch Church in Akhtamar” that I’d prefer not to repeat here. There I learnt that you were an expert in the theory of science, a Norwegian human rights defender, and an activist. In this discussion I was surprised to learn that you were also an expert in criminology. Your comments also indicate that you’re an “expert”—if I may say so knowing you’ve done no fieldwork in Armenia—on the Armenian genocide. One can only wonder as to why having so many impressive qualifications you incessantly try to look for “explanations or mechanisms” of an historical event that’s been extensively researched by genocide scholars, foreign governments, international organizations, and professional associations, most of whom admit that the only major “explanation or mechanism” for Turkish atrocities against Armenians in 1915 was the premeditated, pure-evil campaign of race annihilation, read: genocide. Do I really look like I’m trying to “convince” anyone beyond what’s been already admitted by those who, as you say, “have studied history and who always talk about mechanisms and developments”?
Well, guess what? I’m not a historian, nor am I a criminologist, but—in contrast to you—I’ve done research in Armenian archives, and am having hard time understanding how “a person kills the other because the other symbolizes something by force of the previous experiences of the perpetrator” may provide an explanation of a killing? And then you went on: “The Circassian [or a Turk for that matter] who murdered Armenian men, women, and children did not murder in a vacuum: the Armenians symbolized the Christian oppressions for [the killer].” So, indirectly you admit that there actually was an underlying religious element in the mass killings of Christian Armenians? Does it imply that a part of the genocide definition, as given by the 1948 UN Convention, i.e. “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group” is now admitted by you? Secondly, you tend to portray Turks as conventional, evil-free human beings. Does it look like a conventional behavior to you that state authorities can give orders at forced deportations and mass killings based on what one of their national, ethnical, and racial minority groups “symbolized” for them? Turks are Muslims for Armenians, but nowhere in these pages or beyond will you find any Armenian who’d blame Muslims for the catastrophe that’ befallen us because Turks “symbolize” Islam or centuries-long Muslim oppression for us. Why is it so? Maybe the extent of evil in one nation might be bigger than in the other? Maybe there are different behavioral, societal, civilizational levels of understanding of “otherness”, different worldviews, different extents of extreme nationalism, different levels of religious tolerance, different systems of values, including the value of human life? Maybe these may serve as “explanations or mechanisms” for a particular behavior of a killer? Also, what “Christian oppressions” are you talking about? You mean it were nomadic Christian tribes whose invasions into Asia Minor brought grief and destruction to the Turks who lived there for millennia? Strange, we all know that it was the Ottoman empire that enchained indigenous Christian peoples, colonized them, occupied their lands, and oppressed them as millets for centuries. Explain “Christian oppressions,” please. Couldn’t find any centuries-long, state-imposed methodical oppressions against Turkish and Circassian millets in, say, Russian empire. In this context, you stubbornly continue to hit the same nail on its head by repeating again that “the experiences of what the Russian army did [to the Turks were] very real.” Whaever Russian army did to the Turks was a part of a war in which BOTH sides: Russians as well as Turks, were involved. The very notion of war presupposes human suffering of both or multiple sides, and not those who were in no way involved in or aided any warring side. Also, please explain how the answer “Armenians did not do this to the Circassians [or Turks] is immaterial”? If actual non-participation, non-involvement of Armenians in expulsions and killings of the Turks from the colonized lands is immaterial, how can Turks’ illusionary “symbolization” of largely non-provocative Armenians as “deadly enemy” be material?!
“[Turks] did not murder in a vacuum.” I agree, they did not murder in a vacuum, they murdered out of pure evil, simply because Armenians, as you say, “symbolized” some other nations, who kicked them out from the lands Turks occupied earlier. Give way to your imagination, and just visualize what mayhem could have been on Earth had any given nation mass murdered any other nation simply because the latter “symbolized” something to it. It’s a very weak “explanation and mechanism’ of the motives and actions of the Turks. To me, explanations and mechanisms for their genocidal actions lie in evil programmatic policies outlined by leading Ittihadists already in 1907 and 1910, which I cited in “Armenian Kids Made to Leave Sourp Khatch Church in Akhtamar.”:
— Already in 1906-1907 rising Young Turk leaders Drs. Mehmed Nazim and Behaeddin Shakir described the Armenians as enemies of Turkish and Caucasian Muslims “to be dealt with.” They called Armenians “tubercular microbes” that were contaminating the state. Then on August 6, 1910, a secret top-level CUP conclave assembled in Saloniki at which CUP leader Talaat announced that equality between Muslims and [Armenian] infidels was “unrealizable” and that “there can therefore be no question of equality until we have succeeded in our task of Ottomanizing the Empire,” which was feasible because “[t]he army is solidly ranged in our support … we remain all-powerful.” Talaat called for crushing the non-Muslim communities “by force and by arms.” —
Note that these ruling party programmatic statements were made before Balkan Wars of 1912-1913 and before the World War I of 1914, during which Armenians could have “symbolized” the experiences of the perpetrator side.
Mjm jan.. i also agree with this statement of yours below, even though I can never know what will come out Karekin’s mouth….but for the time being, Karekin finally received one agreement from me.. that is huge……..
Karekin: This is one rare instance in these discussions when I applaud you and generally support your argument above, except for the “non-Turk” part.
Also, excellent post to Ragnar Mjm jan…
Msheci jan.. i learned alot.. and it is because of you, Katia, Mjm, and Boyajian…when I see you guys post, I drop everything to read your comments..:) that is how connected I feel to you all… you are my online family who give me the wisdom and education I need …and trust me.. i will carry this to teach my children if i ever do have them in the future.. i also use my learnings to educate my non-Armenians..
Ragnar– ahhhhh (BIG SIGH)… sooo tired and frustrated with your games..
“But if the killed person earlier attempted to kill the one who later murdered, then you may speak of extenuating circumstances”. This is what is called shaping your research and limiting its scope in order to fit your theory. It is also called taking things out of context and ignoring what came before. The more scientific examination would go even further back and attempt to understand why did the victim try to “kill” the murderer in the past? Actually this is not really an accurate hypothetical juxtaposition at all because it assumes that the Armenians were trying to annihilate the Turks, an unfounded assumption. If we want to reduce the subject to a more simplified smaller scale model, it would fit more to the following scenario: A woman is forced into a marriage she never wanted. Since she is an only child the new husband takes over all of her father’s properties as well. The husband is very controlling and abusive. He confides to his family that he only married her for her father’s wealth. Despite the fact that he doesn’t give her any pocket money, the wife manages to embelish their dwelling by doing odd jobs here and there, which ignites his jealousy and irritates him. The husband hopes he can somehow get rid of her, and in time becomes more abusive. The more the wife pleads with him to stop abusing her, the worse he gets. In her desperation, she starts complaining to the neighbors which embarrasses the husband and infuriates him further. The wife decides that she wants no part in this marriage anymore. She tells him that she wants a divorce and wants all of her father’s assets back to start a new life. The husband cannot invision giving her back all her inheritance. They have been married for so long that he considers them his. Fearing for her life, the wife heeds the advice of a particular neighbor who also gives her a bat to defend herself with the next time her husband hits her. The neighbor assures her that he will give her refuge whenever she decides to leave her husband, and also promises that he would find her a divorce lawyer who will fight to get her father’s inheritance back. The wife does not really trust this neighbor, but being in a desperate bind starts considering enlisting his help. The next time her husband raises his hand on her she hits him with the bat. The husband is shaken and eases off a little. He finds out from his relatives that one of their neighbors has given his wife the bat and is giving her legal advice on how to leave him. The husband bides his time. He starts spreading rumors that his wife is having an affair with that certain neighbor. All his relatives are angry at his wife now. They tell him that he should kick her out, because she is an adultress, and she deserves nothing. At home however, the husband feigns that he has changed his ways, promises his wife that he will never abuse her again, and convinces her to give him the bat. The wife, being peaceful in nature, wants to resolve the matter amicably. She gives him the bat with the condition that they will have an amicable divorce. The minute the husband gets the bat away from her hands, he stabs and kills her. He tells everyone that his wife attacked him with the bat and he killed her in self defense. He keeps all of her father’s inheritance, burns everything that will remind him of her and carries on as if she never existed.
If a detective from another city takes over the case and listens only to the husband’s lies and claims of self defense, he will never charge him with murder…(or Genocide). He will say that what the husband did was criminal but there were extenuating circumstances.
Thank God that criminal investigations do not work this way.
Katia, I love the hypothetical analogy that you created! Let’s make a movie about this. We’ll call the wife Haigouhi and the husband Osman and title the movie Extenuating Circumstances.
Right on Boyajian!
How about:”A scientist who is following the trail of peanuts when the elephant is standing right in front of him”!
Ragnar,
please explain what you think you have accomplished with all the “analysis” that you have been trying to carry out on these pages for months. Have you learned anything new? If yes, what is it? If no, why go on?
Dear Katya, Boyajian, Gayane, mjm, msheci, and others, your patience with this guy is extraordinary. Really. Save your nerves and energy for something better.
Dear Boyajian,
I like the title of the movie to be “Midnight Express 2”, of course if Katia agrees …and I wonder who will be the director??I’ll vote for Mr. Alan Parker!!
HA HA HA.. I love ITTTT..:)
BRAVO Katia jan.. brilliant….. and Boyajian…GREAT IDEA……
You guys just created a masterpiece..:)
Hugs
Gayane
Thank you Stepan,
You raise a very important point. Assimilation is the final chapter of the long term effect of a Genocide. Turkey steadfastly denies the Genocide, hoping that with the passing of time, our demands for justice and attempts to uphold our culture will burn out of steam, and be abandonned by the coming generations. The identity of the coming generations and their ancestral lineage will become fuzzy with time and melt within the different societies they happen to live in.
Denying our Genocide, erasing our trace from the land, not making reparations until everything disappears in oblivion, it seems are their goal and vision for the final stage of the crime of Genocide.
Therefore, every Armenian should be involved in their community in any shape or form possible. Whether it be in church, schools, volunteering for youth organizations,… writing commentaries on newspaper sites,… anything and everything counts when it comes to upholding our culture, history and rights. And the longetivity and survival of our people will be secured if we all work on making Armenia safe, democratic, strong and prosperous.
sorry, Msheci, you are evading the issue, and I understand that you leave now. There is but an insignificant difference between saying that they had it in their genes to kill and saying that they were “determined”. It smacks of the same stuff. Dont befuddle the issue by talking about something else. But then of course you qualify your words by saying that they are your speculations, so OK.
Boyajian
first, I think that discussing evil and the nature of evil is important in our case, even if my presentation was not clear. The way I see it msheci is conceptualizing the process leading up to the Armenian mass death of 1915-16 in a way that makes it impossible to talk about mechanisms of the kind that influence ordinary human beings. My point is that if you respond to any assertion of the existence of mechanisms with pointing to moral blame – and accusing the one who talks about mechanisms as a denier – you end up with an ethics – in the given case – that will have to assert the existence of an evil that was never prompted by external circumstances in a way analogous to how ordinary human beings are prompted to do evil acts. This I call “pure evil”. You might also call it “absolute evil” or “unadulterated evil”.
My point is that pure evil is seldom seen and its existence – or imputing it to somebody, close the door to any reconciliation. The one who falsely is accused, directly or indirectly, of pure evil will feel excluded from the moral community and may as well just be unrepentant as trying to prove that he is human.
Regarding the question of “extenuating” and “aggravating” circumstances, this is a legal term, but be it as offensive to you as it may be, the Ottomans were in dire straits, branded by Europe with a vilification way beyond the reasonable, attacked and massacred, not by “freedomloving” subjects but by subjects led by murderous nationalists, and what they did to your countrymen and ancestors must partly be understood as answering in kind to a potential threat. This is extenuating circumstance in legal terms. Morals is something else. Personally I find it difficult to say that one heinous act is worse than another, because they both may be so bad that it defies comparison. How to compare? But I believe the distinction between evil acts that are not motivated by motives we recognise as human beings is something else than evil which seems unmotivated. Pure evil is in a way not committed by humans. The perpetrator is dehumanized and is this correct – or wise?
My point is that msheci by postulating an unbroken chain of Turkish evil from the pristine life in Central Asia, motivated by their genes, makes the Turks less human. Scientifically his idea is also rejected today and has negative political connotations. If it is true that Armenians assisted the selchuks against the Byzantines, as Murat holds, this is is a case in point.
But of course the dilemma surfaces the moment you say that the Turks, or ittihadists, were prompted by ordinary human desires to do evil. We protest if we feel that this means that we “understand”, i.e. condones it. So the challenge is to make our adversary human enough to admit that he was prompted by many usual sentiments, and at the same time stick to our moral condemnation.
To repeat again, my post was prompted by a tendency I see in msheci’s way of reasoning and in other posts by some Armenians and some champions of the Armenian cause in Norway.
It goes without saying that I believe that not all Armenians believe in Turks being genetically disposed to do evil. But I see a tendency in some of the posts, a tendecy that I partly tend to excuse (“the Armenians have been living with the Genocide for 95 years, and living with unrepenting descendants of the perpetrators”), partly I feel that I have to protest because this line of reasoning is unjust to Turks and to my mind it serves the Armenian cause badly.
Regarding the inexcusability of the ittihadists acts, it appears to me most clearly in the fact, as far as I have being able to ascertain, that perpetrators of massacres were never prosecuted and punished, except in a few instances by Cemal. This is a clearcut moral issue and a good, if not conclusive, argument for the existence of genocidal intent. It is also easy to see that this sent a signal both to Armenians and to the perpetrators and to the ottoman muslims at large that Armenians were singled out as a danger to be removed. The complete disappearance of Armenians from their homeland is understandable from this.
Mjm
I am surprised that you cannot admit that what happened to the Armenians partly was caused by the ottoman experiences with Bulgarian, Greek and Serb uprisings in combination with the imperialism of the great powers. I cited Donald Bloxham who says this. Why this anxiety that saying this may be understood as an excuse for ittihadist crimes?
Then I am not a specialist in criminology, but I am generally schooled in the social sciences, and all who have an interest know about trhe debate on the relationship between guilt and the knowledge of causes of crimes
Gayane
Maybe you are frustrated because you never really tried to understand my point of view. You say that “Ragnar says there wasd no genocide”. This is misleading because one has to define genocide, and for many definitions I admit that there was a genocide, but for others I see it as doubtful, and for still others I believe it was not genocide. We have to get beyond analysis that only uses one word.
Katya K
You jump too quickly to a diagnosis of my position. I believe our discussion would be more fruitful if you tried to follow my arguments. You also write regarding my parable: “Actually this is not really an accurate hypothetical juxtaposition at all because it assumes that the Armenians were trying to annihilate the Turks, an unfounded assumption”. Now my example was also my tale of the assumed Circassian and what Armenians SYMBOLIZED to him. So the question is if this symbolization along with certain Armenian actions and experiences of Armenians acting as scouts for Russian invasions since the early 1800-eds would count as an extenuating circumstance in an assumed court ruling. For instance if you as a judge had to compare with a case in which there was no such symbolization and pre-history of the relation between perpetrator and victim. And remember we are not talking about guilt, both are guilty. We talk about the penalty.
Karekin
I hope this was clarifying.
Boyajian, yes it would make a good movie. Certainly the concept of extenuating circumstances can be abused. But this doesn’t change the point that extenuating circumstances is a legal term. By the way, the term does not enter at the point of investigation, it enters in the decision regarding the punishment to be meted out. In the investigation it has no place. The investigation deals with establishing facts.
Good Katia; too bad “Eyes Wide Shut” has already been used.
Gina
I have 1) learned quite a lot on how the memory of the genocide is still a living reality among Armenians. The combined impressions of both the Michigan University listserve and the discussions in “Armenian Weekly” have made a profound impact on me, and I will continue my work towards Turks and Turkey to have them understand this and to go more seriously into the question. 2) Apart from this I have learned about different interpretations and a number of new facts.
About patience? Yes, maybe you all are to patient with me. This is up to you. The only thing i can say is that I profit from discussions with those I disagree with, including you. Not necessarily you personally but by discussing with some of the people here in the “Armenian Weekly”, and also by reading some posts from people I dont discuss with. I also believe in patience in dialogue. If you do not profit from reading my posts and discussing with me, please stop. So the question might be turned around: why do you relate to me at all, if you find what I say irrelevant, foolish and harmful? Are you sure that you are able to appreciate discussion with those you strongly disagree with?
Ragnar Naess,
why don’t you give us the list of your publications on Armenian-Turkish issues? I would like to read some of them.
I think if any of you were to investigate history beyond the superficial level, you would learn that Talaat and most of his closest, most murderous CUP collaborators were not Seljuk, nor even Ottoman Turkish in origin, and their connection to Islam was peripheral at best. As in any criminal investigation, if you want the truth, then follow the money. It could be argued that the genocide was largely an act of theft, more than anything else. Armenians, as well as Greeks and Assyrians were made out to be scapegoats, blamed for all kinds of false accusations and then declared persona non-grata on their own soil – by people who had little or nothing to do w/ Anatolia or Armenians (the Saloniki crowd was very anti-Anatolian, except when they could incite the masses to suit their purposes) – they commandeered the Ottoman government for their own purposes – not to benefit the population. Moreover, the act of grand theft did not stop after the CUP was deposed, but continued under Ataturk, another non-Turk, as well. The point is that our quest may possibly be failing because so few ‘real’ Turks have any connection w/ the leaders of the CUP or their memory. As of a result of this major disconnect, they reject attempts to equate them with a regime they are not proud of….one that destroyed Turkey during WWI. Again, Turks do not have a good understanding of their own pre-republican history or the important role of the minorities for hundreds of years. All of that was swept under the rug by those who sought to capitalize on the concept of ‘Turkey for the Turks’. This rally cry was very far removed from the multicultural, cosmopolitan record of the Ottoman Empire, yet was reinforced to secure their control on the country. All the minorities suffered, but then so did Turks, who in the aftermath had to learn the basics which had long been attended to by Armenians, Greeks and others. The process was long and arduous, because the practical backbone of the country had been removed, along with the head (sultan). For a long time, Turkey existed on life support as it tried to come back. It’s taken a while, but now it seems the role of the military, which was always ultra-nationalist and Ataturkist in nature and policy, has been pushed back somewhat. The hope is that democratic processes and a more European approach to human rights will prevail. Of course we don’t know what will happen over time, but the signs are that this could be a very significant change, particularly for Armenians and other minorities who still live in Turkey. It could hardly be worse than what’s come before….that’s for sure.
“Are you sure that you are able to appreciate discussion with those you strongly disagree with?”
Ragnar Naess,
don’t preach me about appreciating discussions with people who disagree with me. FYI, I am constantly exposed to ideas of people who disagree with me. I am doing just fine without any of your lessons and enjoy respect from others in my profession. I know very well how my work can benefit from their comments and I greatfully akwnoledge their input. It is clear to me that their only intention is to help me sharpen my arguments and improve my articles. This is fundamental.
The thing that bothers me in your case is that, as I said before, your intentions do not seem to be earnest at all. Among other things, I dislike how you jumped on the opportunity to twist msheci’s words and now you make statements about how Armenians view Turks that are completely baseless.
“It goes without saying that I believe that not all Armenians believe in Turks being genetically disposed to do evil. But I see a tendency in some of the posts, a tendecy that I partly tend to excuse … partly I feel that I have to protest because this line of reasoning is unjust to Turks and to my mind it serves the Armenian cause badly.”
Not all Armenians? … What do you mean? Who are the Armenians who do believe so? Give me their names. Why do you think you can feel free to throw accusations like this left and right without any responsibility? I think you owe us an apology, a big one.
You clearly feel very bad for any recognition or acknowledgement of the AG by any country, any organization, documentary, or individual. You try to diminish what’s been accomplished towards the recogniction of AG and you were even deeply annoyed by, as put it, our “congratulatory tone.” You try to hide your feelings but you are failing. What’s your problem?
Make a list of your publications available so we can read and see your true color. What are you afraid of?
Ragnar,
Why don’t you peddle your pedantry to the readers of Turkish Forum? You’ve worn out the hospitality of Armenians long ago.
Karekin,
Without saying so explicitly, you refer to the Doenmeh thesis recently quite popular among Turks and some Armenians to boot. The thesis is that among the CUP triumverate and its ideologues were to be found crypto-Jews. The corollaries of this wretched idea assert that these crypto-Jews eliminated Armenians and Greeks for economic reasons, as well as to obtain control over Palestine.
While the secret origins and allegiances of the leaders are anyone’s guess, their origins hardly compel the conclusion that they acted to advance Jewish goals, whatever those might be.
The other flaw in this thesis is that it ignores the nationwide participation in elimination of Christian minorities that was unleashed commencing in the 1890’s [before the CUP took power, by the way].
Killing Christians was a national and nationalist undertaking. A few crypto Jews at the top could not make a resistant population kill their neighbors and steal their property. Much of the killing was done at the local level, with impunity, and with the encouragement of eager Imams and greedy neighbors, all of whom knew that both Islamic fatwa and the state sanctioned the killings. It seems to me that Islam, not Jewish interests, were in play, if any religion was.
The Jews did not act in concert to exterminate the Armenians for Jewish goals. The Turks did. Don’t make anti-semitism a common ground between Turks, Armenians and Greeks.
This thesis is a smokescreen behind which the acts of the Turkish nation are obscured. Turks tortured and killed. Jews did not.
Ragnar,
Yes, I’d like to leave, but you seem to try to drag me back by making false accusations. Have I ever tended to “evade” or “befuddle” any issue based on your experience of exchanging views with me? Why do you reduce yourself to a pissing match of semantics? Haven’t you already agreed in your September 12, 2010 post that, “of course the expression ‘inherited in their genes the mentality of their savage forefathers: kill to…” is not exactly the same as ‘being genetically determined to kill…’? While I understand that you effectively evaded responsibility for twisting the words I’ve never uttered, I also think I’ve explained terse and clear that your understanding was incorrect. The meaning I put in “inherited in their genes” had to do, in my speculation, with the destructive behavior—not genetics per se—of their Seljuk/Mongol forefathers. To clear things up, I even gave an example of Gabriel García Márquez’ “100 years of solitude” in support of my argument, where he explained convincingly that in closed societies generations do repeat themselves. No, Ragnar, as I said before and never implied any other meaning, I don’t believe that ordinary Turks, using your twisted version, “are being genetically determined to kill.” Please memorize this confirmation as being in my September 14, 2010 comment in “Why Would Armenians Go to Akhtamar, and Become Tools of Turkish Propaganda?” If after this you’d still think that “inherited in their genes,” by which I meant generational repetition of certain behavior, still “amounts to more or less the same [as ‘genetically determined to kill’] in your understanding,” then, I’m afraid, you may have to attend a fundamental comprehension problem.
Till the next recognition of the Armenian genocide by a major world player or the Storting.
Is anyone else’s head spinning here? I think we have all been thrown into a big bowl of soup and our vision of the world and each other is obscured by the potatoes (mechanisms) and vegetables (explanations) floating around us.
Ragnar, you are certainly misguided and naive in thinking that you can conduct this philosophical discussion on guilt and evil with a group of descendants of genocide victims who have waited for justice for 95 years and have inherited the legacy of the collective memory of centuries of subjugation and oppression based on ethnic millet affiliation, and not expect some resistance. You are asking us to put aside our indignation against the continuing crime against us and embrace the concept that Turks felt desperate to preserve Turkey for Turks when they decided to dehumanize us and treat us as disposable. This is twisted. Turks are the one’s that need the lesson in empathy. What about explaining to Turks the mechanisms that helped produce the Armenian animosity against their nation?
What difference does it make if we call it pure evil or modified or incomplete or forced-by-circumstances evil? For the purposes of a just society, there is a bottom line. No nation should go unpunished when it encourages, allows, or fails to punish acts of genocide against a segment of its citizenry. Too simplified? I won’t apologize for that. I strongly believe that you are on the wrong side of this struggle if you are doing anything that helps Turkey avoid “looking at the dark spots of its history” (your words). This is what I believe you are doing when you focus on mechanisms and explanations. I have said it before. First comes the accountability. You yourself mention that “extenuating circumstances” constitute a legal construct that comes into play in the sentencing portion of a legal procedure. So if you don’t mind, could you get this cold discussion of mechanisms and explanations out of the way until we have achieved accountability.
You as a Norwegian, from the region of the Nobel Peace Prize should not allow personal ambitions to cloud your thinking when it comes to working for justice. And speculations about mechanisms and explanations for evil acts are not useful to a nation awaiting its just reparations. I recommend that you step back and examine some of your preconceived notions regarding Armenians and Turks and realize you lack the objectivity that is required to carry out this philosophical debate. You are clearly invested in sparing Turks the full weight of the condemnation that awaits them. However, it might help you to remember that one cannot receive the full blessing of healing through forgiveness until one is able to sincerely admit one’s guilt.
Katia, mjm, Msheci, Gayane, Stepan, Gina, Karo, Perouz, Manooshag, Dikranagertzti, Karekin and Ragnar, etal., I am grateful to all of you for the time and energy you put in to your comments and for your dedication to dialogue. I hope we will all see the day when Turks come to terms with the evil done in their name and we can all begin healing. But I believe that Turks have huge cultural/societal hurdles to jump before they can do this. Even the “I Apologize” campaign had self-serving motives to forestall the genocide recognition movement and spare Turkey accountability.
jda: You’ve spoken from my heart. On many occasions I offered the same counter-argument to Karekin. It’s historically distorted and potentially hazardous from the political of view to suggest that the genocide of Armenians, as well as extermination of other Christian minority groups, was carried out by a few Donmeh in the inner circles of the CUP. I’m tired to repeat that whoever those few were ethnicity-wise, they nonetheless followed CUP’s programmatic proclamations to crush non-Muslim communities “by force and by arms” in their official capacity as elected authorities of the Turkish Ottoman state. Even if a few CUP leaders were crypto-Jews, how could a small ethnic gang within a larger Turkish ruling party generate a societal hatred and consequent action of such a magnitude? They couldn’t, had there not been xenophobic, religiously-intolerant general attitude of the Turks at large towards their non-Turkish, non-Muslim co-citizens. The history of the Ottoman empire’s treatment of their minorities is the best testimony to that, indeed, it’d been there long before Young Turks’ coming to power. The most convincing example is Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid II’s massacres of up to 300,000 Armenians. Abdul Hamid is believed to have had some Armenian lineage, should we then blame Armenians for massacring fellow Armenians, if we follow Karekin’s logic? You’re so correct, making anti-Semitism a common ground between Turks, Armenians, and Greeks is a disreputable and historically- and politically distorted. From what I see on these pages, very few Armenians fall into this trap.
Gina
except the Salt Lake city presentation, all publications are in norwegian. No, I have not reason to doubt that you often talk, and talk well, with people with other convictions. But the way you have adressed me so far made me ask the question.
Karekin
I organised a conference in Oslo on february 1, and invited among others Hilmar Kaiser and Christian Gerlach. Gerlach made a very interesting presentation of the financial aspect of the Ittihadist Armenian policy. Talaat was minister of finance and the theft of the Armenian assets amounted to “….like robbing all Swiss banks today”. On the other hand, Gerlach believes that a great number of factors underlie the Armenian catastrope. There were economical, but also political and military considerations. People from all layers of society collaborated in attacking the Armenians, he said. It was not just a tiny minority.
Msheci
sorry again. You made the right thing by saying that this talk about the genes was speculations from your side. Dont reinterpret the word “gene” in the direction of cultural transmission of values across generaitons. This is not what “genes” means. You and I discussed a lot and I learned things from you. But let us not talk more about your speculations about Turkish genes.
jda
“Why not go somewhere else…?”. I have posted several messages in Turkish papers on the lack of credibility of the official Turkish assertion that the cross on the Sourp Khatch church has not been mounted for technical reasons. I will continue this and I am looking for fora to discuss with Turks, but I have not found many. I will continue to hand out my leaflet to Norwegian tourists, and I have som other plans. I will hopefully lecture again in february-march and my lecture will be influenced by my discussions in “Armenian Weekly”. But I dont necessarily agree, and i argue. Sorry. I might also add that you have here an extremely good and dynamic forum. It makes me return to you, and it bodes well for the Armenian cause.
Boyajian
I disagree with you on the question of evil and causes. These are questions that naturally pose themselves to my mind if one really thinks about strategy and about anchoring one’s strategy in a unified vision. But I can see that it is provocative. But to my mind either you discuss or you comfort. I prefer to discuss and also have the impression that you wear the mantle of discussant. To be blunt, I would rather travel many more times to hand out leaflets than restricting my message in certain ways from speaking my opinion because I talk to descendants of one of the worst crimes in the last century. I feel you have said this too many times, Boyajian: “you are talking to descendants of a genocide”. I feel you are mixing things here. I feel a solidarity with you and your cause, to my mind we agree on important things, but it will not prevent me from speaking my opinion. Finally: thank you for including me in your thank to the discussants.
Sorry, Ragnar, I was not born yesterday.
You deny the Genocide and lord your meager credentials over lay people. You have never posted on Turkish Forum, you have never denounced the overt racism of ATAA President Ergun Kirlikovali [who in 2008 said that the Genocide reminds him of a joke he heard about the death orf a fly].
You were kicked off the listserve [or perhaps you quit when real academics went after you hammer and tong], and you surface here.
Thank you all for joining me in my attempt for a little humor…. it is much needed when dealing with Ragnar Naess…
Ragnar… you do have the talent to suck people into absurd debates…
You wrote that I “jump too quickly to a diagnosis of [your] position. [you] believe our discussion would be more fruitful if [i] tried to follow [your] arguments”.
Ragnar… you are the only one who will ever understand your one sided “position”, and your unscientific “arguments”. You are not attempting at “diagnosing” the criminal deed of the Turks, you are coming up with attempts in “excusing” it. Please behave as a true scientist, and stop relying on “symbolisms”. The factual explanation of the Ottoman decision to resort to Genocide is: Western Armenia was occupied by the Ottoman Empire for a long time. The Ottomans treated the Armenians as second class citizens on their own lands, oppressed and abused them with unfair tax and civic laws. The abuse became so unbearable that the Armenians started revolting and asking other countries to intercede on their behalf. Instead of coming up with reforms that would assure them equal rights, the Sultan massacred 300,000 of them in 1895-1896. The other countries that were occupied by the Empire started rejecting this model and fought for their freedoms. The Armenians looked for help from the Russians to help them break away from the crumbling empire as well. The CUP decided they could not let go of Armenia because it was where most of the Turks lived. The Ottoman Empire was embattled and had lost most of its lands. Losing Armenia also was seen as detrimental. The CUP with the help and guidance of Germany devised a plan to wipe out the Armenian population and march eastward to spread a new PanTuranist empire. They first disarmed the Armenian population by promising them equal rights as Turkish citizens, and when the coast was clear they started the world’s first ever “massacre and take over their land” campaign”. This is how things happened.
Stop coming up with excuses by taking the Serbian and Caucassian revolts out of context. These were all people who were fed up by the oppressive Ottoman regime. You are conveniently keeping out the fact that the Ottomans were not loved by their subjects because of the way they mistreated them. You are probably the only European who sees merit in the Master/Subject model. No one can force anyone to stay in an unhealthy marriage (Haiguhi and Osman from above…) The model of EMPIRE was tried many times, and has proven itself as being a most unhealthy and flawed model of existence for nations. (The Roman empire, the Europen Colonies, Arab empires even the Soviet Union all failed).
Things would have looked very different for the Turks and Armenians now, if the Turks had abandoned their Master/Subject mentality and their dreams of a PanTurkic empire, and respected the right for the Armenian nation to exist (as they did with Serbia, Rumania etc). Instead they resorted to the most cowardly and barbaric ways of conquering a land.
Karekin,
Please do not make excuses for the Turks by delving into the ethnic background of the CUP. You are right that most of the leaders were Donmes, however, the hundreds and thousands of Turks who followed their orders earnestly were not. Even the Turks are not coming up with that excuse, because it will not hold up in the court of law. The CUP were their leaders at the time, and the country should take responsibility for their actions and make the appropriate reparations for them. The German nation did not point at Hitler and said “it was only him”. He was their representative and they took responsibility for his actions.
Karekin you lose a lot of credibility when you succumb to anti-semitic paranoia. I agree with mjm and jda when they point out that a small group of Donmeh/crypto Jews could not have managed to initiate a genocidal campaign without the cooperation and agreement of thousands, maybe millions of average Turks and Kurds. More was at play here that set the ground for the evil unleashed against the Armenians. It was an attitude that had been building for decades before the 1915 events and was evident in the Hamidian Massacres, the Adana Massacres, etc.
Ragnar, what can I say. If you continue to look for explanations for why Turks acted against Armenians as they did without keeping the chronology of events straight you will appear to be trying a little too eagerly to excuse the Turks of the full weight of their crimes.
Also, if we were simply talking about battles between the two side as if they were equal combatants or simply looking at a few sporadic incidences of massacres, then I might be able to accept this effort to explain mechanisms as an effort toward elucidation. But we are talking about the government of a nation engaging in and allowing the elimination of the majority of an ethnic group within the nation, followed by failure to prosecute perpetrators, followed by distortion of the historical record, followed by intentional neglect of the architectural remains of that ethnic group, followed by appropriation of the wealth and property of those eliminated, followed by instituting laws that prohibit open debate about the facts, followed by hostile policies against the remnant nation…I could go on.
I understand the value of examining mechanisms when trying to understand the root causes of conflicts—but this situation goes way beyond mere conflict and simple conflict resolution. This issue comprises the decline of the Ottoman Turkish society into the lowest depths that human beings can go. I feel sorry for those Turks who watched in horror the events of 1915 and were unable to prevent it. I’m sure it was traumatic to watch fellow Turks succumb to such evil impulses. But until Turks reconcile themselves to the truth of what their ancestors did, they will not succeed to climb out of this hole, nor will they ever be EU ready. We (including Turks) as civilized citizens of the world have a responsibility to make sure that such crimes are not tolerated, and especially careful not to minimize them through explanation.
Well, the point is that the donmeh are not Jews at all…they are donmeh, and as such are a very different and distinct group. They were/are not accepted as Jews by the Jewish community, but more importantly, no one is saying that the Jews caused the genocide…so don’t conflate the two. That is not what is being said here.
The other point is that they, the key masterminds of the genocide, were not Turkish…plain and simple….and had little connection to Anatolia or the Armenian heartland. Check your facts. Ottoman yes, Turkish no. In those facts, you will find that all of the key CUP leaders came from Salonika, where some descendants of Spanish Jews who wore the cloak of Islam in order to function under the radar and operate as Muslims, came into being. And, the idea that a small, powerful ruling group could commandeer an empire and the masses is very real…it happens all the time in history. Didn’t the Bush administration use lies to rally the public in support of a war on Iraq? It was no different in Turkey, where the masses were largely illiterate. This created a situation that was tailor-made for those who sought to take advantage. At the same time, let’s not forget that post WWI and post-genocide, it was the donmeh who left Salonika en masse (approx 150,000 people), and moved to Anatolia and largely took over Armenian properties and businesses, filling the void.
The other important fact is that all of this information is somewhat brand new for the general Turkish public. They have lived their lives unaware of and unaffected by anything related to the genocide. So, while it is paramount in the minds of diasporan and Hayastantsi Armenians, it is a relatively obscure issue for today’s Turks who have been alot more focused on Kurds, military coups and the overall economy of Turkey to worry about Armenian issues. Again, let’s ask…do most Americans ever give much thought about the native Americans whose soil they’re living on? Probably not. I’m sure it pains most Navajos and Cherokees, Sioux and Apaches to think they lost their entire world to the white man who is now abusing it, but there is little they can do….so, they have to live with it. I don’t know if you’ve read Deep Mountain, but if not, you really should:
http://zohrabcenter.com/2010/05/28/interview-with-ece-temelkuran-author-of-deep-mountain
Ragnar,
please provide links to your posts on the Turkish Forum. JDA is right. I visit the Turkish Forum pretty often, although I have never posted there. I don’t remember ever seeing anything from you.
Correction,
Not “the world’s first massacre and take over their lands campaign”. The” civilized 20th Century’s” first “massacre and take over their lands” campaign.
Exactly, Katia K. And the Russians did not point at Stalin and said “he was a Georgian.” He was their leader and they took responsibility for his purges.
Ragnar,
I am going to say this in four languages and i hope i don’t have to say it again:
THERE ARE ONLY TWO ANSWERS RAGNAR: YES to Genocide or NO to Genocide.. NO middle ground
Menq unenq miayn yerku patasghan Ragnar: AYO Genocidin kam VOCH Genocidin…Mechtegh chka..This is Armenian….
sadece iki cevap Ragnar vardır: EVET Soykırım veya NO Soykırım .. hiçbir orta yol yoktur This is Turkish… I used a translator and hope it translated correctly..you must know Turkish having spend soo much time with your beloved…right??
this one should look very familiar to you.. and again, i hope it tanslated correctly…it should be Norwegian..so what I do for you???….
Det er bare to svar Ragnar: JA til folkemord eller NEI til Folkemord .. det er ingen mellomting
Ragnar… that is my stand… and will never change.. i know i am ont he right side of the spectrum… you can’t be wishy washy on this subject.. i said it million times…you can’t, absolutely NO NO NO to say I think there was a Genocide or there was a partial Genocide.. NO NO NO.. Either there WAS a Genocide or there WAS NOT one.. pick a side and stick to it… but then again, I know which side you are on..
Good Day..
Gayane
Gina
I found some of my posts in Turkish newspapers. The november 2009 discussion of the article of Eberhard Demm (the third one below) is the only instance when I was able to participate in an extensive discussion. the Turkish deniers do no seem interested in participating in the current debate on the Akhdamar case. They do not answer my posts
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/columnists-190619-turkish-armenian-dialogue-initiative-by-harvard-university.html
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-216635-109-centerour-sophisticated-fascists-bribyi-brorhan-kemal-cengiz-center.html
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=a-new-interpretation-of-the-armenian-deportations-in-world-war-i-2009-11-30
I would like to comment about Mr. Sassounian’s question.
At first, I thought that there were equally strong political reasons for going or boycotting. The reasons for boycott are obvious and everywhere understood. The reasons to attend are to make some claim on this Church as moral property of the Armenian nation and faith. However, as events unfold, it is clear that the Turks, at best, invite Armenians to attend as guests, not as inheiritors or owners of some sort. The Cross debacle, the failure to invite the Culture Minister, and now we hear that the 500 families who volunteered to host Armenian visitors have received calls from the police, eager to make sure they are not crypto-Armenians. Armenians are not welcome, except as props for a Turkish charm offensive.
The Nazis planned to open a Jewish Museum in Berlin as soon as all the Jews were dead. This operation does the Nazis one better – they are inviting Armenians to walk around the museum and act as if they are happy to be there.
Apart from the politivcal, there is the spiritual realm. I can imagine a very important spiritual experience for worshippers in that Church. However, it could be equalled if all the Churches, Lousavorchagan and Anteliasagan and Pokhagan had a day of prayer
for the welfare of the Armenian culture and faith,
Ragnar Naess, thanks for the links.
EVERYBODY,
PLEASE LISTEN. I accidentally came across a comment by Ragnar in Today’s Zaman, and here’s what he says among other things:
“… It is not unusual to meet a crass anti-turkishness among Armenians who participate in the debates, for instance in “Weekly Armenian”. It is said that Turks are genetically disposed towards violence, to take one example…”
Check the following link and see for yourself.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/columnists-220171-cruelty-of-the-victim-jews-armenians-and-others.html
In case you were wondering how Ragnar is using the material he collects here for his “scholarly” activities, now you know.
I can’t find the right words for you, Ragnar.
Thanks Gina for the info on Ragnar’s Zaman post. I am disappointed that after spending all this time with us he misrepresents us to those who already hold a very biased and distorted view of us. Rather than helping to explain the desire for justice that motivates us he reinforces the notion that we are motivated by sheer hate. What credibility can he have left?
Ragnar, what possible gain do you hope to find in playing the two sides against each other in this way. What is your goal?
boyajian,
well, there are in fact a number of utterances like “the turks have never changed”, “the turns are not real muslims”, and also a lack of appreciation of the actual progress Turkey has made in human rights affairs. the identification of Turks at a certain juncture of their history with Turks at large. And very few countervoices.
Apart from this Gina has picked on only one sentence. The phraze I have repeated in several posts is that “Turks” still have a long way to go to to into the dark parts of their history”.
Regarding the utterance abpout Turks having it in their genes is was also repeated by Sylvia, and no Armenians in the discussion reacted then and there. It was only when I brought the issue up that you said that “not all Armenians….”. So this criticiosm you cannot avoid. It is ridicoiulous to say that I pit the groups against each others. Rather I would lessen my credibility if I did not admit to shortcomings among Armenians as I continuously do regarding Turks.
Finally, Gina has picked out just one sentence. First it was your idea, Gina, that it was not true that I had written anything. When you discovered that this was not the case you looked for some way to discredit me and you found this sentence. Where is your credibility as an unbiased judge of my writing?
And again, I must honestly confess that I am apalled by the anti-turkishness that sometimes appears in these discussions. It is so exaggerated and misinformed. It works against your own credibility in the eyes of the world.
Who is Karekin beside Ragnar???????????
I bet Karekin will change his name to “Hakop” next time!!!!!!!!!!!!
Honestly, I am very sorry that there is such a huge pressure to boycott the church service at Aghtamar. Turks are a nation of 60 mln people. Armenians in Armenia most likely do not even reach 3 mln. Turks have nothing to lose and have been destroying our churches for the last 90 years without any serious attempts on the part of international authorities to do anything. Realistically, any protests on the part of Armenia or the diaspora can have no real impact on this. Now, Turks are offering us something which could be a step, even a small one, for normalizing the relationship between Turkey and Armenia. Yes, we don’t trust them, but we could have used this chance to embarrass them. Instead of boycotting, we should have gathered 1.5 mln Armenians, one for each of the martyrs of the Genocide, to attend the mass and put the Turks in front of the fact that they would have to deal with 1.5 mln Armenians who have come to THEIR OWN LAND. I do not believe we can get anywhere with the boycott, also because we are in no way speaking from the position of force (and they are). Plus, we left the Turkish Armenians ALONE. And THESE are people who have no choice and who are, again, left alone…
Dear Moderators and Fellow Commentators –
Thanks to Gina’s post, I’ve learnt that a portion of my comment, namely: “[Ottomans might have] inherited in their genes the mentality of their savage forefathers [Seljuks and Mongols]: kill to…,” that implied possible behavioral parallels between the destruction spread by Seljuks and Mongols and extermination of Armenians by the Ottoman government, was used by Ragnar Naess in his comment in “Today’s Zaman” in the following perverted form: “It is said that Turks are genetically disposed towards violence.” In my September 12 and September 14, 2010 posts I expanded on my speculation, explaining to Ragnar that in closed societies, and certainly the Ottoman empire was one, generational repetition of certain behavior, which I meant by “inheritted mentality in their genes,” is not uncommon. Ragnar Naess agreed in his September 12, 2010 post that, “of course the expression ‘inherited in their genes the mentality of their savage forefathers’ is not exactly the same as ‘being genetically determined to kill.” Yet, in “Today’s Zaman” he used the words that neither I nor any other Armenian commentator here used the way he presented them there, namely: “Turks are genetically disposed towards violence.”
I consider it a cheap, two-faced, and dishonorable conduct and request that Ragnar Naess be warned for deliberate distortion of meaning and for citing the words of commentators in “Armenian Weekly” that were never written, meant, or implied in the way he presented them elsewhere. I encourage all commentators here to ignore his comments and stop responding to them. Outrageous!
Ragnar,
There is a world of difference between racist comments by individual Armenian and Turkish posters, and the express racism of institutions. I have never seen essentialist or racist comments on any Armenian site, such as those maintained by the Government of Armenia, the Churches, ANCA or AAA.
The same cannot be said of official and semi-official Turkish sites. Read ATAA’s, the Turkish Foreign Ministry’s or the posts of ATAA President Ergun Kirlikovali, who likens the Genocide to the death of a fly.
Who said that Dink was likely killed by an Armenian.
Who says regularly that the majority of Armenian Americans today want to kill any Turk on sight.
Who said that Armenian Americans cannot be trusted to serve in the American military because they are duplicitous.
Who promotes Sari Gelin, with its blood libel that Armenians made soup from the bones of Muslim children.
Who says that anyone who affirms the Genocide is a racist.
Who said that any person affirming the Genocide will be sued.
Why do you not attack THEIR INSTITUTIONAL RACISM when it is so abundant?
Don’t attack Gina for quoting you. You are sewing dischord between Armenians and Turks. You are serving no one, only your own desire to be the center of attention.
Ragnar Naess: I’m confused. Even if you were not given an explanation by an author as to what meaning he put in his words re: ‘mentality inheritted in genes’, how is it possible to post a crap like ‘It is said [by Armenians] that Turks are genetically disposed towards violence’ in a Turkish publication while considering yourself an activist who works relentlessly for rapproachment between Armenians and the Turks? Even IF exactly these words were uttered by anyone here—although they were not—don’t you think you’d devalue yourself as a ‘humanist’ had you tattletaled them in a Turkish forum? I regret I waisted so much time exchanging comments with you in a hope that you’d deliver our concerns to the other camp in an truthful manner or, at least, refering to them exactly as they were written. I’m sorry to say that you act as a naughty schoolboy, not a mature, accomplished “scientist.” Have a good life…
Dear ArmenianLady: Excellent idea. Really, loved it. But why necessarily on the 19th and as part of a Turkish “initiative”, so to speak, but not, say, on the 20th and as part of our own initiative?
Mjm you took the words out of my mouth when you posted for Armenian Lady.. we have said it over and over about how we feel about this matter.. she probably did not read the every post that was put on this forum…
Msheci jan.. when we first started communicating with Ragnar…a whole lot of emotions started to built up inside of me.. from the start mind you… i did not get a good vibe from Ragnar and i stuck to my guns of not letting him sweet talk me into liking and discussing openly with him.. he himself requested to give him a chance and that i was the only one that he was having such difficulty getting through… and here is the perfect reason as to why i never came to like this person.. because he is a fake, one-sided and Turkey loving individual.. he is not a scientist…i am just sorry that he took only very small % of all the wealth and data we provided and used it in a negative way….
Gayane
mjm
I acknowledge that it was unfortunate to say this in a Turkish daily, but I feel that you take too lightly on this type of anti-turkish statements. I was outraged, not in the least because other Armenians did not react. I am also not impressed by the attempts to re-interpret the statement of msheci away from the tendency to you-know-what. But I agree that I should not have written this in the Turkish paper
Ragnar you are a denialist…i am sorry.. please stop trying to dig deeper hole for yourself..
Not sure why but the part where I said i don’t know who is worst.. Karekin or Ragnar did not come through..because these two are soooooooooo confusing..soooo muddy in their responses and fight for justice and this and that… i can’t figure these two men out… i just cant…
Sooo frustrating that we have people like Ragnar that we need to go against on top of all those sympathizers of Turkish govt and deniars…
G
Ragnar Naess: Haven’t you been given an explanation of the meaningt? Was there a need to twist words and distort? It’s inflammatory. Moreover, “this type of anti-turkish statements,” as you perceived it, refered particularly to the behavior of Ottoman Turkish leaders in regard to Armenians, but the meaning I got from your comment in “Today’s Zaman” was that Armenians generally refer to Turks—Seljuk, Mongol, Ottoman, Young Turk, Kemalist, or modern-day—as being ‘genetically disposed towards violence.’ Lastly, our anti-Tukishness is targeted against the genocide-perpetrator and denialst state, not ordinary citizens, and has a VE-E-E-RY solid grounds to be as such. Having said this, I commend you for agreeing to admit your mistake, but nonetheless, will cease exchanging comments, sorry…
A decent individual who is advancing efforts in rapprochement would not have taken this type of a comment out of context, attributed it to the “Armenian Weekly” and communicated it to the group in question, who might find the comment very offensive, unless he has two objectives: to stir trouble, and get attention for himself.
Shame on you Ragnar, for calling yourself a human activist. This was extremely irresponsible of you. Why don’t you stop cheating by borrowing comments from this site without our knowledge, and do real scientifically controlled fieldwork with sensitivities to individual privacy, choice and by excluding comments that can potentially be inflammatory in your communication with both groups. Why would you chose that comment instead of the many positive and hopeful comments we also made about the Turks.
I had a terrible hunch when you constantly asked us to disclose our identities. I guess you were planning on quoting us personally. Why do fieldwork when you can work in front of your computer! We have asked you several times to disclose the reasons you were engaging in these conversations. You should have told us that you are posting our views on Turkish newspaper sites.
Msheci, I suggest you post your last comment on the “Today’s Zaman”, so that those Turkish readers realize how Ragnar has taken your comment out of context, unless if Ragnar himself will be gracious enough to clarify his post on “Today’s Zaman”
himself.
Once and for all, the Ottomans used ver barbaric and gruesome ways to kill the Armenians. We did not chose this adjective out of thin air. Many non-Armenians have also attributed this adjective to the ways we were massacred.
Ragnar,
Where is your “outrage” at the racism and race-baitng of the official and semi official Turkish sites I mentioned above?
Ragnar, you are wrong and you are a trouble maker. First, you come to a false conclusion to assume that Armenians “hold a crass anti-turkishness” and “believe that Turks are genetically disposed toward violence” based on a couple of questionable posts and the fact that few objected on the website. You fail to recognize that just because people did not object to the posts in question does not mean that they agree with them, only that they did not comment. What kind of social scientist makes such a faulty leap? I for one do not agree with everything others say on the website but do not comment on every instance when this occurs. Also, you conveniently forget all the conciliatory comments made by Armenians which recognizes the kindness shown to Armenians by some Turks, the fact that most average Turks do not know their true history nor were directly involved in the genocide or its denial, as well as the welcome offered to Turks willing to face the truth between us. Your limited acquaintance with Armenians on a website provides only anecdotal evidence from a self-limiting group of participants. Hardly random. Not nearly exhaustive. Not at all conclusive. I am offended.
Secondly, why should you be surprised by the existence of anti-turkish sentiment among those who have endured first, deportation and murder, theft of property, and loss of millenia-long homeland at the hands of Ottoman Turks, followed by denial of these crimes and bought and paid for deliberate distortion of the historical record by the government of modern Turkey. Would you not have less than warm feelings for those who deny your loss and instead imply your brought upon yourself whatever happened? Even so, these are feelings that stem from frustration at the lack of empathy and remorse that most Turks have toward the tragedy that their ancestors inflicted upon Armenians, not from deep-seated racism or hatred.
Why would you want to feed the irrational fear that Turks have of Armenian anger instead of using the knowledge you gleaned in “your fieldwork with Armenians” to help Turks better understand what they could do to move the process of reconciliation forward? You suggest instead that Armenians as a whole have an unrealistic anti-Turkish attitude. Who are you to make such a claim? Based on what unbiased research? It is prejudicial and inflammatory. And who are you to judge Armenian credibility in the ‘eyes of the world.’ You just ruined your own credibility with Armenians and have squandered an opportunity to better understand the Armenian viewpoint. But maybe you were never really interested in it or open to the idea that you had anything to learn from us. Only that you had a mission to help us understand Turks.
Please stop trying to pass yourself off as a peacemaker interested in bringing out the truth.
i am sure his Turkish friends are absolutely thankful for his contirbution to their cause …
I just posted a comment below in “Today’s Zaman”:
— Ragnar Naess who posted above referred to one particular comment posted by me in ‘Armenian Weekly’ that attempted to draw a parallel in a speculative form between the behavior of Seljuk and Mongol invaders from the one hand and their Ottoman Ittihadist successors’ behavior that resulted in mass extermination of Armenians in 1915. This comment was made in relation to that period. In particular, the comment speculated that the destructive mentality of the Ittihadists might have been inherited in their genes from Seljuk invaders. Nowhere in this or any other comment in ‘Armenian Weekly’ did any Armenian commentator stated or implied, as Ragnar Naess wrongly presented here, that ‘it is said [by Armenians] that [ordinary] Turks are genetically disposed towards violence.’ My comment implied a fact that in closed societies—and the Ottoman empire certainly was one—generations repeat themselves. As for “a crass anti-turkishness among Armenians who participate in the debates,” as Ragnar Naess portrays, please be aware that our anti-Turkish attitudes are mainly directed against the Ittihadist regime that committed a great crime against Armenians, as well as all consecutive Turkish governments who deny the crime. No anti-Turkishness has ever been displayed on the pages of “Armenian Weekly” in regard to ordinary Turkish citizens. —
An automated message that appeared after submitting reads as follows:
Your comment will shortly be read by the Today’s Zaman Internet editorial team. If it is selected for publication it would normally appear on the site within the next few hours. Due to the high volume of emails received by us we cannot guarantee that your comments will be published.
Thank you Msheci,
I commend you for your integrity!
Bravo, Msheci. Thank you. I hope it gets posted.
Ragnar,
If as a private person you wish to play these games, that is your business.But you claim broadly to be an academic, and you discredit Oslo University. I am sending them your handiwork. After all, you are m,erely a non-tenured lecturer.
Dear Boyajian,
You should have known about “Turkish bipolar syndromes”…Turkey’s “double standard” policy is well documented, and also reflect to their “bright and smart candidates” it is well known to “civilized world”, especially to members of European Union…just look at their actions and decisions toward Muslim world, Israelis, Iran, US, EU, Armenia, Russia…when the head is confused, do not expect other body parts function at satisfactory level, therefore I do not blame, Ragnar, about his misbehavior in “Armenian Weekly” .. “the sickman of Europe” is back after AKP landslide victory in Turkey!!
Ragnar,
Though this is the first time that I have “met” you, you seem to be a person who has a good head on his shoulders and is sincere and fair in their respective feelings. This is a rare thing in this day and age!
You’ll note that you’ve received a number of comments from a poster named JDA. I can tell you that this person is an imposter! He uses several aliases. He has long since shown that he lacks credibility and can only resort to classical defamation of Turks. He trolls around Turkish sites quite a bit. I have followed him for the past year and have caught him in numerous falsities!
I wish you the best and I bid you peace. Good luck.
sorry msheci,
you used the phraze “in their genes”. No twisting can change this. but then you recanted and said that it was a speculation. I will commend you for that. And thank you for our interesting exchanges
msheci
I congratulate you with posting a message in “Daily Zaman”. This is the kind of exchange we need inb order to move forwards
Robert you could not keep your mouth shot huh? it is not possible..we have discussed many many times in the past that you are an angry, anti-ARmenian human being..
I laugh at your comments.. you keep repeating the same thing over and over and over again.. are you obsessed with JDA? you say you follow JDA and you catch him…. what the heck does that got to do with anything? so by following JDA and trying to discredit him is your life goal?? or maybe because you can’t handle the truth that JDA is spreading? why would you follow him? is it to do what you do best.. threaten? as you have done many times on these pages? is that it? listen JDA has more intelligence in his pinky than you in your entire body.. please dont spread such filth among those who know him well….so your attempts to put an ARmenian down won’t fly here.. sorry to disspoint you…..
Whatever you say I hearby void…
Have a great violence free day
Gayane
Msheci jan.. Shat apres… EXCELLENT way to fight back…
Let every denialist and sympathizer of Turkish govt know that when you step on an Armenian you will be faced head on…you may get away with lies and denials but you can’t hide.. you wil be exposed sooner or later…like Ragnar…
I would love to know if your post will get printed.. please do keep us in the loop.
God Bless you
Gayane
boyajian
you write:
Ragnar, you are wrong and you are a trouble maker.
Comment:
Are you sure that you do not have a simplified picture of the dynamics of good discussions?
you write:
First, you come to a false conclusion to assume that Armenians “hold a crass anti-turkishness” and “believe that Turks are genetically disposed toward violence” based on a couple of questionable posts and the fact that few objected on the website. You fail to recognize that just because people did not object to the posts in question does not mean that they agree with them, only that they did not comment.
Comment:
Sorry, I believe you all should look into what is said about TURKS in these discussions. What Msheci now says about the target only being the ittihadists is excellent. The majority of Turks dislike the ittihadists. Only I wonder why Armenians havent earlier made this kind of messages in Turkish papers? Because this is the impression of many Turks, that Armenians simply hate Turks. To my experience, I have to add.
About the theme of commenting on questionable conduct in one’s own camp. But, Boyajian, you actually commented at the time, however indirectly, if I remember correctly, that you disapproved of msheci’s utterance. But given the extent of anti-turkish utterances in our discussions and the general lack of critical comments to these by other Armenians, I was provoked to put this onesided message in a Turkish paper. Sorry
You write:
What kind of social scientist makes such a faulty leap?
comment:
there is a theory about the responsibility of the silent bystander when something objectionable gos on. I think this is a good point. But honestly speaking, I also believe it has to do with loyalty between Armenians, and for this reason I wioll not be too critical.
you write:
I for one do not agree with everything others say on the website but do not comment on every instance when this occurs. Also, you conveniently forget all the conciliatory comments made by Armenians which recognizes the kindness shown to Armenians by some Turks, the fact that most average Turks do not know their true history nor were directly involved in the genocide or its denial, as well as the welcome offered to Turks willing to face the truth between us. Your limited acquaintance with Armenians on a website provides only anecdotal evidence from a self-limiting group of participants. Hardly random. Not nearly exhaustive. Not at all conclusive. I am offended.
Comment:
I am sorry that you are offended, and I should not have posted this message in this form, but I still feel that you could do more to stop people in your own ranks that maybe give vent to their feelings, and these feelings are real enough, but who use expressions that are hardly conducive to get a growing number of Turks to understand that they must listen to Armenians, take their complaints seriously, and go into the dark aspects of their history.
you write:
Secondly, why should you be surprised by the existence of anti-turkish sentiment among those who have endured first, deportation and murder, theft of property, and loss of millenia-long homeland at the hands of Ottoman Turks, followed by denial of these crimes and bought and paid for deliberate distortion of the historical record by the government of modern Turkey. Would you not have less than warm feelings for those who deny your loss and instead imply your brought upon yourself whatever happened?
Comment:
I am not surprised. Certainly many of the Armenian reactions, even the ASALA, are understandable. But should it not be criticised? And my participation in “Armenian weekly” has taught me a lot about how the genocide is still a living reality among Armenians. One might draw the conclusion that for this reason one should not criticise Armenians who display evidently exaggerated negative views of Turks generally. But is this right? Does it further the Armenian cause? Further, the tendency in Armenians on the one side to have an almost visceral hatred of Turks and on the other side to say things like “I dont hate Turks, my grandfather was rescrued by a Turk” or “I dont hate the common Turk. He was misled” was noted as one of the main characteristics of the testimonies of survivors collected by the Millers in the 1960-ies.
You write:
Even so, these are feelings that stem from frustration at the lack of empathy and remorse that most Turks have toward the tragedy that their ancestors inflicted upon Armenians, not from deep-seated racism or hatred.
Comment:
I agree, but comments like this feed the schismogenesis. I also see inputs to schiosmogenesis in many of the negative answers to attempts by Turks to make some amends according to their own ideas, Turks who still say that they expect some understanding and still do not agree with everything the Armenian side says. Many of the comments to Hasan Cemal were unnecessarily harsh, and Akcam should have recognised that Davutoglu did something that no other Turkish foreign minister has done.
Finally I am sorry that you do not see me as one who tried to do the good for both Turks and Armneians.
Here is a link to a CNN report and video of the services at Akhtamar. Click here to see the CNN article and video. Some may find it interesting-others just glad for even tepid acknowledgment of what happened to the Armenian population and others may be outraged because the genocide was not sufficiently revealed. There is speculation on the volume of visitors based on hotel rooms reserved.
Sadly, the level of hyped up anger, hate and outright racism here has reached a fever pitch and does not belong on this site at all. If anything, Armenians (like me) should be embarrassed to see their compatriots acting and talking this way. Amot eh, shad, shad amot eh. Lowering yourselves to that level should be beneath you, but apparently not. It appears to suit you, especially those who defend it. You should all face the fact that there are no pure Turks and no pure Armenians, at this point in history. No matter who you identify with at this point, a thousand years of blending, coupled with many thousands of years of mixing w/ Arabs, Kurds, Persians, Greeks, Assyrians and others has created a very interesting result. The other thing is that it is patently pointless to argue about or become angry about the Seljuks, the Mongols, etc. Do you really think you can change those events? You can’t even successfully reunite Karabagh with Armenia, and you’re upset about ancient history? Please – get real and stop the mindless babbling. Thankfully, none of you are in decision making or policy making positions, because your thinking is not only counterproductive, it is dangerous.
Sorry, I didn’t include this in the prior comment. Here is an article in News.am-an online Armenian news service about Akhtamar and Armenian investment in the area. It goes to the question raised by this thread.
Click here for article on Akhtamar and investment in Van by Armenians.
Also, please stop ascribing words to me that I have not – nor will ever – use. I have never and will never deny the genocide. For anyone to pin that label on me is just a plain old lie. So please, at least get that straight. Where we differ is on how we as a community, might encourage and promote this truth among those in Turkey who know nothing about it, because the truth has been blocked from their view. Indeed, Armenians, for the most part, are not even part of their mindset, except in a negative way. Armenians must be reintroduced to the Turkish public and for that to happen, we will need sensible, non-inflamatory dialogue, free of hate speech, accusations and racist commentary. We will need to counter the propaganda promoted by the ultranationalists, who are the inheritors of the CUP strategy. This is why I believe we should make a collective appearance at Akhtamar – to reinforce the fact that 1) Armenians still exist and remember their history, and 2) Armenians have a right to see and enjoy that history, even in eastern Turkey, which was Armenian land for many thousands of years. Some people seem to think that boycotting Akhtamar is going to hurt Turkey, but that’s hardly likely.
Karekin — Amot eh (it’s a shame) to call Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ “some carpenter with his magic tricks,” and, in your best Turkish tradition, never apologize to us for an explicit religious insult or admit the guilt for the misdemeanor.
Well, sorry, Ragnar, I used the words “in their genes,” and they’re just words not a phrase. These words—which you effectively took out of the context—were just a part of a phrase: [Young Turks] “inherited in their genes the mentality of their savage forefathers [Seljuks and Mongols]: kill to gain new pastures; demolish ancient structures of the natives and build mosques.” By the way, in this phrase, “mentality” is the predicate, not the “genes.” But you concentrate heavily on what caught your eye, didn’t you? Twisting, Ragnar? Even in ‘Today’s Zaman” I didn’t shy away from using the exact words I used, but explained that I implied generational behavior and mentality that in closed societies tends to repeat itself. If you think I’m twisting my words, then your sheer distortion “Turks are being genetically determined to kill” should stand next to Archangel Gabriel’s innocence, I presume? I didn’t recant, I explained the meaning I put in the phrase because you chose to dig it up for your divisive activities. After all, who’s the author of both the words and the meaning that’s put in them: you or me? Lastly, I don’t need to be congratulated by you with posting a message in “Today’s Zaman” (not “Daily Zaman,” I thought you know your beloved Turkish publications by heart, don’t you?), but it was done solely to subject you to the glare of truth. But you’re right, it may, as well, be considered a “kind of exchange we need in order to move forwards.” After all my contribution to “Today’s Zaman” by all means is more constructional that the explicit distortion of words never written or implied by Armenians that was posted there by Mr. Naess. Enjoy your Turkish delights, Ragnar…
No, Karekin, Armenians don’t think they can “change” ancient history events. Such a phrase is not applicable to Armenians in the first place, because only fools would think they can change the past. Secondly, it’s not about historical “events” in plural, such as wars, invasions, golden ages, adoption of Christianity, etc., it is about THE EVENT in singular, i.e. genocide of Armenians by the Turks, that we want to be acknowledged, certainly not changed, but acknowledged. And the notion of acknowledgement relates to the present, not ancient times. Clear enough? Let’s go further. Reunification of Artsakh with Armenia will happen when it is politically expedient to do so. Technically, these two Armenian entities can reunite tomorrow, but against the backdrop of Turkey’s closing of the border and blockade, as well as non-stop Azeri war threats, the issue needs to be kept as is for now. Finally, I thank God you’re not in decision making or policy making position, otherwise the very next day after inauguration you’d rush to compromise with your dearly-loved Turks the loss of 1.5 million innocent lives, a million of others deported or fled, 75% percent of historical Armenia stolen and pillaged, and continual denial of their crime on the part of the Turks.
It’s all metaphorical, whether it’s Noah’s ark, the garden of Eden, the Easter bunny or Christ’s miracles. The reality is that Armenians dumped their ancient, beloved gods, Avak, Vahakn, Anahid, Ara, Aramazd, Astghik, Nane, Mehr, Dzovinar, Aralez and others, and adopted a foreign belief system for political reasons. According to G. Brandes, “When Armenia accepted Christianity, it was not only the temples which were destroyed, but also the songs and poems about the old gods and heroes that the people sang. We have only rare segments of these songs and poems, segments which bear witness of a great spiritual wealth and the power of creation of this people and these alone are sufficient reason enough for recreating the temples of the old Armenian gods. These gods were neither the Asian heavenly demons nor the precious and the delicate Greek gods, but something that reflected the characteristics of the Armenian people which they have been polishing through the ages, namely ambitious, wise and good-hearted.”
Ragnar, I don’t believe you addressed my complaint to you.
I am suggesting that if this is the work of a serious social scientist, than it is irresponsible, inflammatory and prejudicial. You made a global generalized statement about Armenians based on no objective research. Anecdotal observations should be identified as such and not applied to a whole ethnic group as you did. You are entitled to your opinion, gleaned from a biased sample though it may be. But you are not entitled to present it as a fact to a Turkish audience that holds some serious misunderstandings and lack of knowledge about who Armenians are. I believe you know better and this is what is offensive to me.
I believe that to report to a Turkish newspaper that Armenians hold a ‘crass anti-turkishness’ is inflammatory. You stated it as a global fact without any qualifiers or acknowledging that it was only your personal opinion based on your exposure to a self-selected group in a pro-Armenian newspaper chat site. You could have said “some Armenians I have encountered on the AW website hold a crass…” but you didn’t. You chose your words very poorly and I can’t believe that you were naive to how these words come across to a Turkish audience.
You also didn’t balance your accusation with an acknowledgment that many Armenians have expressed willingness and desire for reconciliation, as well as an understanding that the modern Turk knows very little of the genocide history and is not personally responsible for the actions of their denialist government. The fact that you may not have encountered this ‘other side of the Armenian viewpoint’ only points to how skewed your sample has been and how wrong it was of you to make such a statement with so little evidence. I have read such conciliatory statements from Armenians on this website numerous times and also heard them in my personal dealings in my community.
This same criticism also applies to your statement that Armenians hold that ‘Turks are genetically disposed to violence.’ It is based on a few anecdotal remarks which you baited when you suggested that Armenians would have sought equally barbaric revenge on Turks if they had had the opportunity. Do you remember this…? You also cannot draw the conclusion that all Armenians hold this viewpoint simply from the fact that few argued against it on a self-selected sample of Armenians on a pro-Armenian website. This is extremely faulty thinking for a serious academic.
Yes, I disagreed with this notion and said so. I have no problem with commenting on questionable behavior in “my camp” and have done so on several occasions. As I have said to you before, Armenians are not one monolithic voice emanating from one single viewpoint. In fact the present discussion on Akhtamar included many heated words between Armenians that held divergent views on the idea of attending a service at Holy Cross Church on Akhtamar island.
You claim you were provoked to put this one-sided comment in a Turkish newspaper because of the fact that Anti-turkish statements were made and not objected to and you glibly say “Sorry.’ You should be sorry. Shouldn’t a serious social scientist possess more self-awareness and objectivity to monitor their own reactions and avoid taking an action that has the potential to harm the already tense relations between Turks and Armenians. You should retract your statement and clarify that it was a personal observation. This would be the ethical response of a serious academic or human rights activist.
You may sincerely believe that you are trying to do good between Armenians and Turks. However, your impulsive and ill-conceived comment in Today’s Zaman did more harm than good and tells me that you lack the objectivity to play the role of an effective mediator or conflict resolution facilitator. I find your apology weak.
By the way, folks, in the same link that Gina posted for Ragnar Naess’ comment in Today’s Zaman (http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/columnists-220171-cruelty-of-the-victim-jews-armenians-and-others.html), there’s a comment from an Armenian author Zareh Sahakian (apparently from Turkey) about the unconcealed Turkish hatred toward the Armenians. Here it is:
— Nice psychoanalysis but if this were a paper presented as a study it would not be accepted in any psychoanalytical publication because it is very weak indeed. Dear Mr. Cengiz the biggest fault in your analysis is that you confuse two issues a) hatred and b) striving for justice. It is entirely possible that in the absence of justice hatred might take root amongst certain individuals but you cannot paint an entire community, in this case the Armenian Diaspora with the brush of hatred. If this were true then Turks are in a worse shape because with a similar brush one can accuse Turks of being pathologically suffering from hating Armenians. It is in Turkey that we witness the association of the name “Armenian” with that of an insult. We live with a constant reminder of it almost on a daily basis. A few examples are enough to drive the point. A) Accusing President Gül having Armenian blood, and the latter counter-suing for defamation. (no comments needed) B) The big insult Mr. Dink committed by daring to defame Turks with the suggestion that Ataturk might possibly have adopted an Armenian girl, (all hell broke loose). I am sure you know many more examples. Mr. Cengiz. However, as the son of a survivor of the Armenian Genocide I can assure you that it is not hatred nor revenge that Armenians in Diaspora and in our Motherland strive for, but it is Justice, with all its fallout. —
Karekin you said: “Thankfully, none of you are in decision making or policy making positions, because your thinking is not only counterproductive, it is dangerous.”
EVERYONE: This is an Internet open forum site. It is not a “controlled” “formal” discussion by professionals. Anyone can express whatever they please on it. None of us know each other: and the comments are not being directed to a defined audience. It is open to the entire world. To take this forum seriously, or make it representative of the sentiments of the entire Armenian nation is immature and irresponsible. The views expressed here do not represent the views of Armenian Weekly. None of the participants should be held accountable or asked to take responsibility for each other’s comments. For all I know, someone can post an unrelated Mickey Mouse joke here and get away with it.
WHAT IS DANGEROUS is taking these “informal” comments/views by lay people, attributing them to the Armenian Weekly and the Armenian people in general, rewording potentially inflammatory comments and taking them to the Turkish Internet newspaper sites in order to stir trouble. And this is being done by an obviously anti-Armenian individual posing as a “peacemaker”.
Karekin, this is what I agree with you on: Most of us living outside of Turkey need to get acquainted with life inside Turkey. Being Armenian, the Armenian Genocide is central to our existance. It is not central in the life of the regular Turk. On the contrary, the regular Turkish citizen is not aware of the Armenian Genocide, just like you said, thanks to the intentional distortion/cover up orchestrated by all Turkish administrations post WWI. I agree with you a 100%, that we need to educated the regular Turk about what his ancestors have done to the indigenous Armenians who lived in those lands for thousands of years. There is a great movement by Turkish citizens, a lot of them with Armenian grandparents, who are researching the truth. We should support them in this endeavor. One way is by posting regularly in their newspaper internet sites (if they allow the comments to go through of course). Direct communication is more effective, and it avoids misunderstandings. When we don’t communicate to Turks directly, we allow trouble makers such as Ragnar, take advantage of the situation, misrepresent us and foster discord.
Karekin, what I do not agree with you on: You said that you felt we were being racist here. I don’t particularly see any blatant racism against the Turks on this site. What I see is the normal feeling of “hatred” that the Armenians feel about the fact that Turkey has gotten away with murdering 1.5 million people (not flies), taking away all their possessions, taking over their lands, and year after year, it has ignored calls from the entire world to acknowledge the Genocide and make reparartions for it so that the descendants of the victims can have legal and mental closure. The act of denying the Genocide has been psychologically abusive and detrimental to generations of descendants. It is the continuation of Genocide. How can you be a normal person, and not feel hurt and resentment for this.
Secondly, Turkey carries an immense intimidating power because it has gotten away with a terrible crime against humanity. People are scarred to speak up for fear of unchallenged and unaccounted for retaliation. So when you say that our comments are “dangerous”, are you sure you are not saying that because of “fear”? Some people are so intimidated by an unpunished criminal, that they chose to side with him and blame the “weak” victim instead. That is the way they deal with the inhumane and uncivilized situation: by blaming the victim. It is easier to put down the weak then to challenge the powerful. Who’s being racist?… I feel that you have put down the Armenians in every one of your posts… should I call you racist? You say you do not deny the Genocide… but that is as far as you want to go with it.
Ragnar,… The ways and means the Armenians were killed were described as Barbaric. No exageration there. Most nonArmenian witnesses have called them as such. By not denouncing and paying for these Barabaric killings, should we assume that Turkey is approving of them because they feel that those acts were normal? (genetic/cultural predisposition?) or should we assume that they are so ashamed of those acts that they just want to shut those parts of their “dark spots of history” out, by not acknowledging them or paying for them? Both options are not very civilized.
For you, Karekin the Incorrigible, Christ’s miracles might be “metaphorical.” For us, they are real, because He is real and in Him we find our salvation. This is the most important postulate of our 1700-year long Christian faith. You offended the Savior and never apologized in line of a typical Turkish behavior to commit a crime and never apologize. I imagine what hysteria you’d wind up had any Armenian here descended so low as to offend prophet Mohammad. As for your insights into the history of Christianity in Armenia, that’s virtually no different from most of ancient nations who previously were pagan or Zoroastrian, what does that have to do with “amotanq” that you gave us and my response that you, in the first place, must be ashamed for you religious insult? Is derogation of religious feelings all that you learnt being in the religiously-tolerant America? Or, maybe, you still are in the Ottoman Turkey with your mind and your soul similar to that of your Turkish masters?
It looks like everyone missed the headline reading “Turkish church”. There is no such thing as a Turkish church! Even our churches are becoming Turkish now. Talk about stealing everything!!!
Karo , thank you for the quote and giving visibility(also Gina) to an important. We must take the intelligence expressed here and take it to Turkish sources such as “Today’s Zaman” This where we can go beyond the experiences here and address our issues to what I am sure is a most challenging audience. Zareh Sahakian is courageous and to be admired. if we are to truly political capable , we need to read about what’s going on in Turkey and comment when appropriate. This is an effort we can all make as private citizens. Holding our cause dear to our heart is the foundation. Becoming and remaining informed Armenians is critical to our success. With today’s mediums, it is a real opportunity.
Harb: Thanks for the link to a CNN report on Akhtamar event. As we expected, one of the major media outlets didn’t even bother to utter the term that’s being increasingly recognized by the world governments: “the genocide.” Also noted was evasive and carefully-chosen wording: ‘Armenians were forcibly deported to the desert and massacred in hundreds of thousands by the Turkish troops.” Not the government, whose orders troops normally carry out, but “troops.” And, of course, no word on thousands of other churches and monuments in Western Armenia that were transformed into mosques, sheepfolds or simply blown up.
mjm – I really don’t understand the reasons for not reuniting Armenia w/ Karabagh after all this time. Turkey closed the border quite a while ago…ok, fine, whatever. Let them. Frankly, that was the time to reunify and get it over with. They’ll all get used to it. Unfortunately, the political figures in Armenia have been using an outdated concept based on the legalities of the USSR. Well, that’s long gone. Possession is 9/10ths of the law, and we have Karabagh back, though it’s not official yet. There are no Azeris there. Time to reverse Stalin’s giveaway. I realize they don’t want to jeopardize what they’ve achieved, that’s normal, but the longer they wait, the more tenuous it will become. Armenia should not hesitate because of fear, but should act in times of strength.
Harb: Thanks also for the link to the article in news.am about Akhtamar and Armenian investment in the area. Business contacts are welcome provided they might be more effective if the Turish government opened the border and lifted the blockade of Armenia. However, no bilateral contacts will ever compromise the imperative need for Turkey to admit the guilt and apologize to the Armenians for committing the genocide. Those who dream that it’ll vanish as bilateral contacts intensify may forget it as a bad dream…
No, Karekin, it’s not “fine” or “whatever” or “let them” that Turkey closed the border a while ago. It’s an indication that not only this state denies her shameful barbaric act in 1915, but she continues it onto the 21st century by attempting to strangulate Armenia. As for the reasons for not reuniting Armenia with Artsakh, I’m astonished to hear from you that “Armenia should not hesitate because of fear, but should act in times of strength.” Wow! I’d love to hear such a strong-minded, determined voice when you comment on Turkey’s admittance of guilt and Armenians’ demand for justice. This forum is open to our enemies, and I’d like to avoid responding to your question directly. I’d only say that there are certain political considerations that hold off reunification for now. These considerations are based on several imperatives, most important of them being “when the time is right.” The time is approaching.
BTW, Karekin, my comment to another round of your remarks is posted in the “Wrong Church, Wrong Pew” discussion. Cheers.
Stepan,
I have thought about that, too. Besides Zareh’s outstanding comment there were some others there that I thought were really sharp. It’s great to have discussions among ourselves but I agree with you that we could participate on Turkish websites, too. So far I have been only reading what’s going on there, since, at least at this point, I do not consider myself as knowledgable in terms of historical details, as some others that I have seen here.
Karekin – I hope you read Zareh Sahakian’s comment in “Today’s Zaman.” Being a bolsahay in Turkey, living in an atmosphere of animosity, as he describes, he nevertheless isn’t scared to speak up and even used the term “genocide” in his comment. Whereas you live in America, but tend to blame the victim out of fear for a mightier unrepentant criminal-state. But in the end of the day, it’s not geographical proportions of Armenia and Turkey, or their economic growth figures, or incomparability of their military prowess, or population ratio that matter. It is the strength of our spirit that matters. I’m sorry to say, but this is exactly what you don’t’ have: spirit, strong will, and resilience.
Ragnar,
You have a fan. Not just any Genocide Agnostic. His name is Robert. He has fond wishes for you, see his 9/16 post, above.
Robert posted today on Turkish Forum, that institute of fairness and evenhandedness which you do not deign to plague with your peacemaking. Robert posted that Hrant Dink deserved to die because he insulted Turkish blood. His words, not mine.
What can we say about Robert’s remarks? I think we can make three observations.
First, we can see that Robert cannot read or speak Turkish, as Hrant Dink never said anything like this, despite the best efforts of Turkish prosecutors and Turkish Nazis to pretend that he did.
Second, we can see that Robert has found in you a soul mate. He accurately discerns that you are an apologist for Genocide, that word which just sticks in your craw.
Third, we can see that you are unwilling to attack virulent instirutional racism, say by the publsihers of Turkish Forum etc. Maybe you’re looking for a nice Uni job there in your quickly approaching golden years.
Dear JDA,
Robert guy, is switching his head so fast, that even Ragnar can not keep up with him…
Robert is very upset that AKP won the election he is a die hard Kemalist, and “Ergenekons sympathizer”, and has very anti Armenian feeling in this forum, so I am not surprise about his inhuman behavior in front of his people!! I wonder why “Robert” do not use his real Turkish name, for some reason he hide his identity!!
Boyajian
You write:
Ragnar, I don’t believe you addressed my complaint to you.
Comment:
What do you mean?
My text took place within a concrete encounter of views. So I will first relate both the postr that prompted my answer and then my full answer, not just one sentence. Msheci claims with some right that he is cited out of context, and the same thing applies to me.
The start was the following section in Orhan Kemal Cengiz’ article “Cruelty of the victims: jews, armenians and others:
We should force perpetrators to confess what they did, we should remind them about history everyday in order to prevent them doing what they did before. But at the same time we should convince victims to bury their dead and carry on with their lives. We should pay great attention to this extremely sensitive balance in which a victim can turn into a perpetrator at any moment. If we can do that, we will create real change!
I commented on this:
(You write)”But at the same time we should convince victims to bury their dead and carry on with their lives”. It is a fact that many Armenians,Diaspora Armenians and other Armenians,continue the campaign to receive a recignition of the catastrophe that befell them and reparations for the extensive material losses they incurred. We have no right to question this. The phraze that they should “bury their dead and go on living” is unfortunate. But We should debate with them if we hold that their views are exaggerated or unfounded. It is not unusual to meet a crass anti-turkishness among Armenians who participate in the debates, for instance in “Weekly Armenian”. It is said that Turks are genetically disposed towards violence, to take one example. While acknowleding the great crime committed in 1915, I protest against such attitudes.Other Armenians are seldom protesting against these utterances. Then I agree with Orhan Kemal Cengiz.
I must repeat this point about the tone of many posts in ”Armenian Weekly”. To take some examples:
“No one with any knowledge of history trusts the Turks or their motives”. (Lolopeeg, july 14)
“A Turkey takes what it wants killings, tortures and worse – Turkish style and also the Azeris – to gain their convoluted goals… the world watches as the Turkics spread claws about taking lands via Genocides of the Armenians, takeover of the Greek’s Cyprus, today, the Genocide of the Kurds… this is the Turkics gift to our world – Turkic style! Turks excel at stealing lands, eliminating peoples from their own land, stealing properities and more upon which to advance themselves”(manooshag july 15)
“Hye, No, Turks are incapable of ‘getting along’ with the civilized nations of the world.” (manooshag july 14)
“There is nothing Turkey can do that will be genuine and democratic” (Gayane September 15)
“…..rather trying to educate a wolf´s offspring” (gaytzag Palandjian,November 21, 2009)
You wrote:
I am suggesting that if this is the work of a serious social scientist, than it is irresponsible, inflammatory and prejudicial. You made a global generalized statement about Armenians based on no objective research.
Comment: it is a myth that social sciantists only should express opinions that are buttressed by large statistical materials or published materials. In qualitative research, singe cases has a place. Look to any textbook. Then my observation is also that other Armenians do not object. Then also you make obvious mistakes. I did not make a general picture of Armenians, I conceded that Orhan Cengiz Kemal has a certain point and this I corroborated by “one example”. I mentioned one example from a particular Armenian newspaper. I do not say that all Armenians believe that Turks are genetically determined to kill.
You wrote:
Anecdotal observations should be identified as such and not applied to a whole ethnic group as you did.
Comment: this is what I did
You write:
You are entitled to your opinion, gleaned from a biased sample though it may be. But you are not entitled to present it as a fact to a Turkish audience that holds some serious misunderstandings and lack of knowledge about who Armenians are. I believe you know better and this is what is offensive to me.
Comment:
If you see my answer I object to certain parts of the Turkish writer’s views. But I also concede that he has a point, and I illustrate this by one example. I speak my opinion both in “Armenian Weekly” and in “Daily Zaman”. I do not make any censorship of my critical attitude to certain aspects of the debates in “Armenian Weekly”, because I am sriting in a Turksih newspaper. But IU might have made it even clearer that what I refer to regarding bringing genes into the picture are a few cases (as far as I have seen. I siuspect a full count would reveal a number of cases)
You write that what I do is inflammatory. I doint think so if you see the full text.
You write:
This same criticism also applies to your statement that Armenians hold that ‘Turks are genetically disposed to violence.’ It is based on a few anecdotal remarks which you baited when you suggested that Armenians would have sought equally barbaric revenge on Turks if they had had the opportunity. Do you remember this…?
Comment:
To say that I baited an answer referring to genes is extremely far fetched, Boyajian. My point is the obvious one that people are formed by their history and experiences.
You write:
Yes, I disagreed with this notion and said so. I have no problem with commenting on questionable behavior in “my camp” and have done so on several occasions.
Comment:
I agree and I explicitly excepted you, didn’t I?
You wrote:
You claim you were provoked to put this one-sided comment in a Turkish newspaper because of the fact that Anti-turkish statements were made and not objected to and you glibly say “Sorry.’ You should be sorry. Shouldn’t a serious social scientist possess more self-awareness and objectivity to monitor their own reactions and avoid taking an action that has the potential to harm the already tense relations between Turks and Armenians. You should retract your statement and clarify that it was a personal observation. This would be the ethical response of a serious academic or human rights activist.
Comment:
I have said that the remark was unfortunate.
you write:
You may sincerely believe that you are trying to do good between Armenians and Turks. However, your impulsive and ill-conceived comment in Today’s Zaman did more harm than good and tells me that you lack the objectivity to play the role of an effective mediator or conflict resolution facilitator. I find your apology weak.
Comment:
Yes, it was an unfortunate remark. And yes, I try to do good between Armenians and Turks and have received many thanks for it from Armenians. But obviously not from you, which I regret.
jda
I do not know about the Turkish Forum. Can you please forward a link? Regarding your point you really misrepresent me. I suggest you ask me directly. Further I suggest that you try to argue instead of providing diagnoses
Thanks for sharing the CNN link..
As many of you said, no surprise that even major network could not get the story straight…and the title of the clip was……….Armenians to hold historic service in ancient Turkish church………TURKISH CHURCH?? WHAT THE HELL? someone ought to contact CNN and tell them that before studying the history, DO NOT POST ANYTHING that can paint a picture in such way that the people watching or reading will think of the network as unintelligent or ignorant.. surprise, surprise…
and we think by having this even on the 19th will provide us with true coverage with accurate data???
Shame on CNN….
Ragnar.. when someone is guilty of something or hiding something, they keep talking, and talking and talking and talking and talking to cover up that guilt or hidden agenda…..you are doing just that..
Give it up.. you have been caught your hands in the cookie jar….finish, finito, the END….
Gayane
Karekin.. You definintely have no respect toward your own…Absolutely none.. it seems to me, du matnerit aranqov es nayum the Genocide Question, and your history.. all you care about is how to fix the issue with your comments…
and i hope you dont take my comments as vayreni…you remember your comment right? about how you described Armenians to be vayreni or act vayreni on another forum. VAYRENI??????? i am still not over that comment and will never get over it.. it was rude and inconsiderate of you to call your own people vayreni… amot qez…
Ragnar.. it seems like you have special archives of comments made by many commentators on the Armenian Weekly for your evil doings… do you have a special folder for each commentator on the forum???
that said. you used a comment of mine to demonstrate your twisted and demented point… here is the comment and my answer TO YOU…
There is nothing Turkey can do that will be genuine and democratic” (Gayane September 15
I STAND BY THIS COMMENT 100%.. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?????? and tell me which part of this comment IS NOT TRUE….
Get off your high horse …you are not God’s gift to science and will never be with your mentality and sneaky ways….
Go do REAL and EXTENSIVE research with Armenian and Non-ARmenian historians Ragnar.. stop hovering over us, making a choas, and giving us a dizziness…
Ragnar, I read your latest comment to me and I am willing to concede that on second reading of your words in the Today’s Zaman article in question, your statement was a little less global than I thought. You merely impugned AW commentators with your statement, not all Armenians! As one of these AW “debaters,” I am offended by your remarks.
I will not dissect your new response line by line; the discussion has become quite bloated. In my opinion your comments in Today’s Zaman were inflammatory. I agree with you when you say your words were “unfortunate” and you could have been “clearer.” I thank you for admitting this but believe that your apology is lacking. You could rectify any wrong impression you may have inadvertently left with a quick paragraph providing more balance. Will you do this?
My initial response when learning that you wrote these unfortunate words in a Turkish newspaper was deep disappointment that you would spend months on a website with Armenian Weekly commentators only to share a very negative impression with Turks. I still feel this way. You are entitled to your opinion, but I feel you misrepresented AW commentators and revealed your own bias against Armenians.
Boyajian: I think it’s become increasingly clear that by continuing to exchange views with Ragnar Naess we only boost up his apologist arsenal. It’s also understood that he tends to focus on comments where he can locate divisive elements or concentrate on their contextual misinterpretations rather than those that could have delivered Armenians’ concerns to the Turks in an objective form or build bridges between the murderer and the victim. It’s up to you, but like Gina and others here, I stopped responding to his comments. Playing upon mutual distrust between Armenians and Turks, Armenians’ demand for justice and Turks’ ostensive attempts to get away with mass murder appear to be his raison d’etre. “Don’t waste what is holy on people who are unholy…”
Ragnar,
Your stance as the disinterested, knowledgeable, academic is in shreds. You disgraced yourself on the listserve last year, and you have made a fool of yourself here.
You nitpick lay posters with a self-proclaimed sheen of learning, and attack the inevitable bits of racism you find. But you ignore the institutional racism of the Turkish state, its culture, and its official and semi-official publications. Its like being upset with Jewish antifascism, which contained stray racist anti German statements, and even actions, while saying you never heard of Der Sturmer or Hitler.
You say I should take on your argument. I don’t know what argument you are making, other than trying to chastise Armenians. You’ve made some truly moronic statements here and on the listserve, which have garnered scorn. You have also been exposed in these pages for stirring up tension.
I have placed a number of substantive questions to you, such as how can you reconcile for example the de Nogales book with your view that Genocide is not proven, or the observations of Quataert with your beliefs. The answer is plain – you lack one.
You have also written about what Genocide means legally, without the merest understanding legally of what it means. I suggest you read Geoff Robinson’s August 2009 report to get your feet wet.
Neither Armenians nor Turks need the pedantry of a fourth ranked “scholar” eager late in life to find a niche. Go defend the persecutors of the Roma, or maybe tell us why Quisling was misunderstood.
Cann’t find “Trkish Forum?”. Try google. I am not your porter.
Here’s a glimpse at our other abandoned churches in the area of Van and the city of Ani, before they disappear. The video also features Holy Cross of Akhtamar.
To the AW mediators: if posting this readily available Youtube video constitutes any copyright violation to Youtube, please feel free not to post my comment…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtUs-KgBWXk&feature=related
Well, guess what? The badarak took place at Akhtamar, whether you approved of it or not. At least 1000 people attended. Abrees. Khaghalutiun amenetzun. Now, if/when the dome is strengthened enough to put the cross on top, as a reciprocal gesture, maybe Pres. Sarkisyan will send a newly carved khatchkar to be mounted on the grounds in front of the church. Despite the ‘protest’ actions and negative hype of some people in the Armenian community, this badarak has alot of potential to do more good than harm, as well as to break the stubborn 100 year old ice that sits between Armenia and Turkey. Gamatz, gamatz, hayrenageetsner. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
Here’s how Radio Free Europe covered the event. Note the heavy Turkish tilt in the coverage. Shouldn’t we have expected it? http://www.rferl.org/content/Cross_Controversy_Mars_Historic_Church_Service_In_Turkey/2162151.html
Karekin; what exactly do you mean by “gamatz, gamatz?” You have used these words before. Do you have a calendar? Can you do basic math? 95 years have gone by. shake your head.
Well, it was a successful “Great political show” by Turks for their immediate political customers, from EU, and US justice Department…I wonder if those sincere foreign diplomats knew what happened to Armenians before and after 1915, of course if they were not brainwashed by so called “Turkish Historian”, before Sunday Mass at Holy Cross (with no cross) Church!!
Armenian Mass at church in Turkey
Perouz…as they say, better late than never. If Akhtamar had crumbled into dust, would you be happy? I hope not. At this point, this magnificent structure has been saved from oblivion to remind not only the world, but Turkey, that Armenians have an important place in Anatolian history. The message isn’t for you or for Armenians at all, but for Turks, and I think in that respect, it succeeded quite well and in a very good way.
Hi mjm, thanks for your advice. For Armenians, time is so precious. There have been so many and so much stolen from us and every Armenian feels this ache. To spend our time with someone so self-serving and who doesn’t hesitate to sell us down the river… well, it’s sad, but its not unfamiliar territory. Still wondering what his goal is?
Than there’s Karekin, who can’t resist a bit of snarky attitude and ‘I-know-best-ism’ when reporting about the service at Akhtamar.
Karekin, how can you refer to the difficult relationship between Turks and Armenians as a ‘stubborn 100 year old ice?’ As if Turkey and Armenia were two old friends who had a little spat long ago and stubbornly refuse to forgive each other! In your opinion, should Armenians now say to Turkey, “Thanks for fixing up our old church, let’s just forget about the other 2000 and that pesky 1.5 million thing and start over.”
Katia jan.. i cried when I watched the video… it is just heartbreaking.. simply criminal what Turks did to our churches..
Asa Perouz jan.. asa… Karekin thinks that this saga started just a year ago vor “gamatz gamatz”… (kamats kamats) Turkey is moving forward…
Karekin.. stop putting a negative light on everything that the Armenians who do not agree with you are doing.. yete etqan hayrenaser es, did you go to Aghtamar? Did you participate?? WHy don’t you tell us?
Mjm.. thank you for sharing the article… I sure felt the Turkish tilt as well.
Gayane
Karekin – Only a fraction of the planned multi-thousand attendance appeared at Akhtamar. Just several hundred people, a 1000 at most. The majority was local bolsahay Armenians led by their Archbishop. 90% of those who booked flights and hotels cancelled their reservations. The Turks and the world media noticed this. Almost all of their reports contained a clause about critics who said the Mass was merely a campaign to improve Turkey’s image and promote its bid to join the European Union. Also noted was Turkish slyness in promising one thing (placing a cross atop the church) and their last-minute backing from word in the best Turkish tradition. To strengthen the dome, if that was the reason for not mounting the cross which Armenians strongly doubt, Turks had three long years. As a commentator from Armenia has put it, “the whole mighty state of Turkey couldn’t lift a 100 kg cross atop of the church in three years.” By the way, “protest actions and negative hype” came not from “some” in the Armenian community. It’s come from the government of the Republic, Mother See, Cilician See, The Jerusalem Patriarchate, and most of the Armenian diasporas. By any account they represent “some” in the community, Karekin. “Some” are those who showed up at the event. This Badarak was never viewed as an event that could have “a lot of potential to do more good than harm.” It was viewed as a Turkish PR stunt aimed at advancing an image of the Turks that’s so far removed from them: “religiously-tolerant and democratic.” The prevailing majority of Armenians chose not to partake in the show. I agree with Boyajian, what “100 year old ice that sits between Armenia and Turkey”? It just sits there? How simple-minded this statement should be from a person who thinks of himself as a “know-it-all”? Why does it sit there, has it ever occurred to you? And who exactly Armenia and Turkey represent? The sides at war or to an ethnic conflict? Or a victim nation that suffered genocidal extermination by its former government? “Gamatz, gamatz” my a**. Isn’t 95 years of the Turks’ stubborn denial of crime and cowardice in admitting the guilt and offering an apology to Armenians not enough for you? And can you widen your mind as to not to focus on Akhtamar church only? Several commentators here provided links to the state of some 3000 Armenian churches and monasteries in Western Armenia. Look at Turks did to them and weep, if you can. Only small-minded people see the trees and not the forest.
Look, Turks, all 70 million of them, need to learn or be reminded that 1) Armenians originated in the eastern part of their country and have a history there that precedes theirs, 2) that they are not living there anymore due to actions of a previous Turkish govt, 3) that Armenians are not terrorists, traitors or subversives. If Akhtamar could do that, we are all the better for it. Armenians don’t need to learn about the genocide, about Akhtamar, etc, etc, etc. We know all about it, so stop preaching to the choir. THEY need to learn it, but if you don’t stop screaming and screeching, nothing will be learned by anyone. Why don’t you get that essential message? You are screaming so loudly and in such angry tones, no one is hearing you and no one is listening. If you want the message to get thru, the delivery has to change. That’s the case for anything in this world, whether it is an advertisement for toothpaste or a history lesson to those who know little or nothing about Armenian history. If nothing else, my many years in education has taught me this and it’s a lesson I would hope you all could learn.
On the other hand, had there not been “screaming and screeching,” the world wouldn’t respond to Armenians’ demand for justice by adopting genocide resolutions and the Turks wouldn’t arrive at the point of renovating our church except for the fear for widening international recognition of the genocide. 70 million of brainwashed Turks need to learn or be reminded of Armenians and their Cause? Fine. By whom? Just 10 millions of Armenians? Is it technically feasible? Or maybe their government should do the educating? Doesn’t their government consider Turks “democratic,” “secular,” and “religiously-tolerant” nation? So, what’s the problem in presenting an ugly event that the whole world knows as genocide to such an “advanced,” “perceptive,” and “compassionate” audience? Our anger has historical justification, and originates for one sole reason that’s related to your comment. Because all governments of Turkey from 1915 on distorted truth about the Armenian genocide and continue to deny it. No Armenian would show anger had we witnessed that the Turkish government is doing its best to educate their people about the crime their predecessors have committed against Armenians, stop distorting history, and hamper recognitions from foreign governments. We don’t see it happening thus our anger. After all, we are the victim-nation not the Turks.
Ragnar is quick to assert his academic background. His online resume states that he has the equivalent of a PhD in latin, obtained in 1969. He has no apParent training or specialized knowledge in the Armenian Genocide, see the resume:
http://www.developmentsupport.no/aboutus.rn.html
Karekin: Not so long ago the Turkish government has distributed 12 million DVDs to their schools that portrayed Armenians(?!) as murderers of the Turkish nation. How do you educate such brainwashed people if their own government continues to pump venom in their blood and minds? One of the ways to make their government comply with Armenians’ demands is by “screaming and screeching” that must effect the international community. Otherwise what murderer has ever accepted the guilt by his own?
Karekin, Please stop talking about what turkey has saved our culture or our people from. Give it up. It is highly offensive to descendants of genocide survivors. I repeat – we have paid for the renovation of Aghtamar ourselves. the amount spent is a pittance of what was stolen from us. return the spoils of genocide. Return our churches and our money. we will do it ourselves. And Karekin, when we build or renovate a church, we know how to make the dome capable of holding a crucifix. We knew how to do it thousands of years ago without modern technology and materials. Turkey cannot do it today. This is a clear indication of the poor job of so called renovation that you want us to bow our heads in gratitude for. It is all cosmetic. A substantial work would have had no trouble supporting a crucifix on the dome.
Boyajian
I did not say anything generally about the people discussing in AW. I said: It is not unusual to meet a crass anti-turkishness among Armenians who participate in the debates,
To my mind this is so. If you choose to take it as an insult to yourself, you who obviously have not done anything of the kind, along with a number of other Armenian commentators who stick to a more rational tone, I dont know what to say. I say “it is not unusual…! How you can translate this into my making a general comment on the AW discussions I do not know. I also qualify my utterance by pointing to the right of Armenians to press their claims. So you must excuse me, but I feel you over-react.
boyajian
I have a problem with apologizing because the problem I point to is very real. There are Armenians in the AW, to my mind, that harm the Armenian cause bewcause they do not stick to the main point about the ittihadists and the genocide, the 1895-96 massacrews and the 1909 massacres. They add all kinds of negative characterizations of Turks. To my mind this is a problem. Finally I have posted quite a number of statements in “Daily Zaman” and “Daily hurriyet” and all these are simply declarations of solidarity with the Armenian cause. Have you read my long disciussion with Turks on the Demm article? But if it makes a difference for you, I will send a message to the same discussion rectifying. Since I made a mistake in my formulations I apologise for this, but because of your insistance in not seeing the whole picture, the apology is less – what should I say – deep felt than it certainly would have been had I 1) said that all Armenians in the AW discussions believe Turks are genetically determined to kill, 2) made this my more or less only remark on the Armenian-Turkish relations in my posts to Turkish papers. But then I woiuld never say a thing like this.
Karekin and everyone else, speaking up for our rights in a clear and firm voice, defending what is ours, is not screeching and screaming. But if in the face of denial, distortion and cold-hearted political machinations, we become frustrated and our voices raise and our pitch heightens, should we be ashamed? We have a big struggle ahead of us, and must from time to time re-evaluate our methods, but we never have to be ashamed of our righteous indignation. We have earned our voice for genocide victims everywhere and have no need to demure for the perpetrator. Nonetheless, I advocate for firm and cool-headed assertion of the facts.
Ragnar, in your own words you acknowledge that I and other AW commentators maintain a balanced and rational tone, yet you did not include this balance in your comments in Today’s Zaman. This was an unfortunate choice on your part and awaits your correction.
Your brain is not washed, but bleached. Your bias is almost irreversible.
Ragnar,
How does one say ‘buzz off’ in Norwegian, or, for that matter in the other language your resume lists, Turkish?
Those in Turkey and here, who make state policy concerning the treatment of the Genocide, discrimination against Armenians in Turkey, the border closure and blockade, and the resumption of war etc. do not read the Armenian Weekly. If they did, the stray insult or essentialist remark would mean nothing.
You cannot seriously claim that these remarks are an impediment to progress. If they were, you should wear your elderly hands to the nib, writing letters of protest to the Turkish State, to Tall Armenian Tale, to the Turkish Foreign Ministry, to Turkish legislators, and to Ergun Kirlikovalui and the ATAA, protesting, for example, their daily celebrations of Genocide.
Perhaps you can look up the April 24, 2010 celebration of Genocide which took place directly in front of the Turk embassy in Washington. Pay special attention to the smiling, chubby man holding a sign saying “Armenian women like Turkish men” He was taunting peole – the real meaning of the sign was – “we raped your women”. After two hours of such celebrations, the Genocide dancers were invited into the Turkish Embassy, where Namik Tan greeted them.
Where is your outrage at such official actions? You claim to have represented Amnesty International in Turkey; where are your guts?
..
AMEN Boyajian jan…
Karekin- what we need from you is for you to show us how your quite demeanor and polite attitude really helped our cause.. give us specific examples please… i have asked you many times to give me your new strategies and how have they been working for you but instead of listing them to me, you told me to go and find it.. but i am not going to do that.. why don’t you in great detail provide us with some background and example of these new strategies of yours..
Ragnar– you are done.. I also read your resume.. thank you JDA for sharing.. nothing about work or research or learned about Armenia and Genocide… all i saw was Russian, Turkish, Norwegian… but then again i was not surprised…
Apres Perouz…great comment…
Gayane
Ahmet… i am sorry but i am not clear as to who you were directing your comment to…
Please clarify..
Thank you
Gayane
JDA.. excellent point… excellent….
Ragnar- one suggestion.. why don’t you invite all those friends of yours that are Turkish to join and read AW… and give us their opinion… we will then see what hatred lives in what group and who has distorted history in their heads.. go ahead… invite them…
Gayane
Ahmet – If our brain is bleached and yours is not, than explain what your government stuffs into you brain and brains of millions of your compatriots as to how could 2-2.5 millions of Ottoman co-citizens of Armenian descent vanish in thick air in the course of several years fbeginning 1915? Did they choose to voluntarily leave their ancestral lands that were their homeland for 4000 years for, say, Cape Verde Islands? What is the “non-brainwashed,” “non-bleached” version that your government serves you and your compatriots together with Turkish Delights in the mornings? Please advise us, so we, descendants of a barbarous genocide, know what happened to us and start being unbiased towards you. Enlighten us. Many thanks.
Armenian commentators,
I’d like to let you know that my comment denouncing Ragnar Naess’ provocative statement: “… It is not unusual to meet a crass anti-turkishness among Armenians who participate in the debates, for instance in ‘Weekly Armenian’. It is said that Turks are genetically disposed towards violence, to take one example…” was posted in ‘Today’s Zaman’.
Here’s the link: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/yorumDetay.do?kn=49931
Thanks Gayane. Good news Msheci!
Ragnar, I need to clarify. I don’t want an apology from you. What I want is for you to submit a balanced statement to Today’s Zaman that corrects the damage done by the implications your original statement made to an already biased Turkish audience. You need to undo the harm you have done.
Ay apres Karo jan.. i was not sure if Ahmet was directing the comment to us but i think i read it correctly.. i just wanted to make sure… i will get back to that..i am going to see if he will reply to my question.. that coward….
Msheci jan.. GREAT NEWS…!!!!!!…
Gayane
No Armenian should stay in a hotel in Turkey unless the hotel can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the property that it is situated was not stolen from Armenians.
Kiazer jan.. you are absolutely correct…
I would not be surprised that the lands these hotels are situated belongs to an Armenian…
Gayane
Having just returned from Van, I wanted to share some of my experience and some remarks.
The number of Armenian attendance was much less than expected, some say there were around 400 Armenians in Ahtamar yesterday (Sunday, 19th). I personally do not crıtıcıze anyone for boycottıng or anything. The government had enough time to install the cross but probably decided not to during the Constitutional Referandum process. Whilst goverment’s strategic stance, however, the mayor of Van–Munir Karaloglu–has shown genuine interest in installing the cross. Yet, he says he allowed to do so only a short time before the mass. nyway, we will see it there very soon… I don’t think Armenians owe the government any gratitude or whatsoever. But if your ultimate aim is the re-flourishment of Armenian culture in those lands, I don’t see any reason not to support the people like the mayor, or more generally, positive changes taking place in Turkey.
The people we met in Vanhave shown extra kindnes and care for Armenians, it was as if Armenians reminded them that they were the ‘offenders’ at some point, not always the ‘victims’. I was struck by a remark of a local Kurd that after watching the news about Hosrof Dink (Hrant’s brother) he realized that there were many with the same name around Van. Equally striking was Aram Ateshyan’s public call for the descendants of Armenian converts to Islam to embrace their ‘original’ religion. Hopefuly, such remarks won’t require any courage to make in Turkey in the near future, these will become normal. But the very confidence Ateshyan had shows that he enjoys proper support from Turkish government.
The mass was pretty well-organized, we were able to watch the mass happening inside the monastery and Turkish TV channels aired the event live. Municipality furnished the city with banners that welcomed the visitors in Turkish, Kurdish, English and Armenian. There was no over-presence of security forces, the Skorsky circling above–we were told–took care to keep the distance not to disturb the attendants. At first, it was weird to see riot police escorting the members of the Patriarchate and other VIP, but probably AKP didn’t want to take their chance for provocations that happen at a daily basis around there.
There are many brilliant churches in the immediate vicinity but the restoration of which would require much more than the amount spent on Ahtamar church. In one case, we saw that the mosk built in front of the church as about to be moved to somewhere else (in Mt. Erek, where the ‘Seven churches’ reside). Still, it appears that the damage done to churches continue (as in the ones on other islands).
In all, as a non-Armenian, it was important for me to be there in solidarity with my Armenian friends. I hope the church will eventualy be transferred to the authority of the Patriarchate and the event ‘de-politicized’ so that more Armenians can go there to familiarize with the reigon and its people…
Karekin,
The list of the names of the 250 intellectuals and leaders who were arrested on April 24, 1915, was given to the Turks by an Armenian. He probably thought that cooperating with the Turks and working with them would get them to warm up to us “gamatz, gamatz”. And those who believe that one of the leading economies in the world cannot install a cross on a church in three years time, remind me of our ancestors who packed diligently, because they believed that “they were being relocated because of the war” when they were being led to their deaths. Instead, the cross was placed down below on the ground…very telling of the respect they feel for our religion. They insist that they will be “miraculously” able to place it on the dome “after” the mass… If they are able to do it after, don’t you think they would have been able to do it in time for the mass? Classic Turkish diplomacy. It’s naïve of you to think that the Turks can be cajoled into admitting to the Genocide and recognizing our rights.
Karekin, If the Turkish state was civilized enough they would have acknowledged the Genocide a long time ago. Asking for our rights passively and in a low tone is exactly what they are hoping for from their “loyal millet” because it will allow them the cover to carry out the last stage of Genocide:”Denial, cover-up, distortion”. They massacred our people because they wanted to keep our lands, and their intention is to keep a hold on those lands by any means possible until our claims die out because of “battle fatigue”, assimilation and disinterest by the coming generations. We know this and that’s why we are making a conscious effort to “yell and scream” about the truth, and this is the right time to do it. I do not agree with your strategy, not after 95 years of abuse of justice, abuse of history and the abuse of a nation’s dignity. The Turkish state has long ago lost its proviledge of getting respect from us. The way to earn our respect is very clear. It consists of a civilized apology and reparations. The Turkish state has not even issued an apology yet for what befell an entire population. It evades law and justice by concocting all sorts of explanations, one being the laughable concept that 1.5 million unarmed women, men and children were systematically deported, massacred and all their lands and assets taken from them because of a civil war! Can you think of any civil war in the 20th century that worked out that way? Respect is earned. Once they do apologize and make reparations, then we will in turn respect them for their courage and their civility, and cooperate in our mutual healing.
In the mean time, do not waist your energy on suggesting a strategy that has been tried many times over. According to their own historian, Taner Ackam, lying regularly, rescinding on promises and negotiations, making public announcements but secretely sending off the record orders contrary to those announcements was an accepted norm within the Ittihadist leadership. The Turks signed the Sevres Treaty which gave Armenian Villayets including the area of Van in question to the Armenians, and right after they marched on Yerevan, and weazeled out of the Sevres with the Lauzane Treaty. The lies continue with Erdogan announcing that Muslims are not capable of Genocide. The distortions and spread of hatred continue with the video “Sari Gelin” which makes no mention of the fact that almost half of Turkey belonged to Armenia. It does not talk about the Armenians struggle for equal rights and freedom under the oppressive Ottoman empire. It does not explain how thousand year old churches happen to exist in a muslim country. It just spreads distortions and feeds hatred among school children.
Stop fantacizing Karekin. Stop blaming the victim. Stop putting down your own, and stand up for law and justice.
AMEN KATIA JAN.. AMEN…
Apres.. excellent comment..
Memik.. thank you for supporting your Armenian friends.. that is a very very nice thing to do…
Gayane
Ragnar,
I was hoping you would have a reaction to the Youtube link that I posted with pictures of the other abandoned/destroyed Armenian churches in Van and Ani. There are many other pictures of Armenian churches turned into stables and mosques, as well as abandoned Armenian homes turned into restaurants and hotels in present day Turkey. Well I guess all this does not “appall” you to the extent that a particular by now famous comment by Msheci did.
By the way, do not ever suggest that “our claims” about the Genocide “are exaggerated”. That is unbelievably unfeeling and hurtful of you. If anything, our claims of barbaric violence by the Turks during the Genocide are still limited and incomplete. They have been relayed by the few survivors who eye-witnessed or survived the atrocities. A lot of them held humiliating and traumatic experiences within them for years, and they could not get themselves to recount them. We do not even know half of the details, because the ones who were tortured the most, did not survive to tell us all the atrocious details of how they were killed. Yes if only 1.5 million skeletons could speak… Thirteen year old girls being raped repeatedly by different soldiers until they died, finger and toe nails being pulled by pliers, horseshoes being nailed to the soles of feet, beheading, tearing the bellies of pregnant women open and pulling out the fetuses, throwing babies in rivers, taking groups of women and children by boat and dumping them in a distance in the ocean, burning and burying alive, making the victims dig their graves before being killed, gouging of eyes, cutting of tongue, nose and ears, putting the heads of several in a well and cutting them off with one blow of sword, starving them to death so that they were forced to eat their deceased relatives’ flesh…I can go on and on… these are not “exaggerated”, they are documented accounts of the victims of the Genocide…. And shame on anyone who downplays them! Who are you, who has not studied the eyewitness and survivor accounts to decide they were exaggerated! It is not enough the history that we have to live with, we need to also listen to someone like you telling us we are being “offensive” to the perpetrator state by pointing out the truth!! If anything we have been commendably able to keep our outrage and anger under control, when every consecutive Turkish administration denies these atrocities and make us feel as if our ancestors imagined all of this! It is so psychologically hurtful….
In the words of German writer Armin Wegner, who was an eyewitness of the Genocide: The Armenians “died all the deaths on the earth, the deaths of all ages”…
I cannot believe that you still have the audacity to say that you were appalled by our critical comments about the Ittihadists and all the Turks who obeyed their orders? Talk about further abuse of the victim.. Does any of the above mentioned factual methods of torture that befell the Armenians appall you? Doesn’t it appall you that the Turkish government refuses to condemn what the Ittihadists and a whole section of the Turks and Kurds did to us?
Gayane jan, the pictures of those churches make me very sad too… just looking at them, the way they are left in those miserable conditions, with bullet holes and big gashes,… I feel violated as an Armenian. While ancient archeological sites are being celebrated and tended to around the world, our churches and fortresses are so disrespected, ignored and just abandonned to the mercy of the winds…
Msheci, I am so happy that your comment went through… I think we should try to post more comments in the Turkish news sites..
Excellent posts by Karo, Perouz, mjm… thank you Memik for your report from Van…
By the way, I do comment from work sometimes using my phone, that’s why my name appears in red …yes, these conversations have become addicting…
And of course, terrific comments by our Boyajian… and all others…
Karekin,
May Allah forgive those Jihadist Turks who killed and destroyed most of our nation in our Holly lands called “Anatolia”…you should join with your Turkish friends, go to Akhtamar Church, kneel down, on that holy dust, where silence is covered at night, and listen to your ancestors cries for help, cries of children, where their mothers were raped and killed … a total destruction and extermination of the ancient race by their owners called Turks!!then you gamatz,gamatz will come to your sober understanding, yes there was a Genocide…
msheci,
the link is to your post which does not contain the titel of the article. Please write the title of the article where you posted your message. I cannot find it. I will then answer.
Shall we now open a discussion on what impact the attendance of some 400 mostly Constantinople Armenians had on the international news coverage? I mean, whether by their attendance the goal of “advancing the Cause” was reached, as some on these pages have suggested?
As I said, today’s Turks need to be reminded and educated about Armenians, but let’s face facts…why direct you endless rage at just Turks? The list of invaders who massacred, destroyed and plundered Anatolian Armenia doesn’t end there….let’s keep going….let’s direct some rage at the Greeks, the Persians, the Arabs, the Mongols, the Russians who also closed many churches. With all that in mind, it is understandable that Armenians have probably been pissed off for a couple of thousand years at almost anyone and everyone. We hate living under someone else’s rule, yet voluntarily pick up and leave for distant lands, where we can live an ersatz Armenian life w/ imagined memories of the fantastic place we left behind. Perhaps if there were more Armenians, building secure and impenetrable fortresses instead of churches, we’d have been alot more secure and able to hold onto our land, but that DID NOT HAPPEN! I wish it did, but it didn’t. Begging, pleading, demanding recognition is not the way to get it. You don’t even seem to realize that many of those living in Turkey are not even Anatolian by origin….their families moved there from elsewhere to fill in the huge gap left after the genocide. As a result, they have been fertile and open ground for all the new myths about the new Turkey…and as you know, Armenians have been written out of that narrative. If we want to be written in and included, then an event like the Akhtamar renovation and badarak are essential. Not an end, in and of itself, but again, one small step. No matter what you want or how just it may be, you cannot impose it by force (which by the way, we don’t have) on anyone. I find it just mindly amusing that you think everyone can, should and will start thinking like you if you just scream loud enough. Where did this thinking come from, anyway? It’s bogus, pathetic and as you probably have noticed to your chagrine, highly inneffective. When you are in the right and have history on your side, screaming and insults are not necessary. Intelligent discourse is, especially with those you want to learn about your story…i.e., the Turkish public.
Memik, thanks for sharing your impressions from Akhtamar and for your compassion for the Armenian cause. Open dialogue between Armenians and Turks is rare and very much needed. I hope you keep adding your thoughts to these pages. I am curious if you are aware of the discussion between some of the commentators here and Ragnar Naess, regarding the presence of “crass anti-turkishness” in some comments. If you are, what is your impression, specifically regarding the prevalence of anti-turkishness in AW readers and Armenians in general? I am interested in your viewpoint as a fair-minded thinker who happens to be Turkish for the purpose of improving dialogue between our two sides.
Also, I was struck by your comment: “But if your ultimate aim is the re-flourishment of Armenian culture in those lands, I don’t see any reason not to support the people like the mayor (of Van), or more generally, the positive changes taking place in Turkey.” First of all, I agree with the idea that we Armenians should support even small steps in the right direction and avoid falling into the negativistic trap of rejecting them out of hand as ‘not enough’ or ‘sheer mockery.’ But more striking to me is the idea that there is a segment among Turks who could imagine and accept the “re-flourishment of Armenian culture in those lands.” Is their a group of Turks (and Kurds) who could envision such a turn of events and co-exist on the land without feeling threatened? Or even more radically, a group that can see the justice in such a scenario? Or do you posit this merely as a rhetorical question to draw out the argument against such a goal?
Katia, I loved your response to Karekin. Gamatz, gamatz (slowly, slowly)is fast compared to the pace this issue is being resolved. Loyal millet approach…been there, done that… failed times 1.5 million.
We are not in equal power positions in our struggle with Turkey and demurely pleading our case has never worked; we are not viewed as people with equal rights to life, liberty and “their” land. The ‘don’t rock the boat’ approach only serves those who want to deny the problem and hope we and our cause will die the inevitable death of attrition, assimilation and apathy. Time is not on our side. We can’t afford gamatz, gamatz, if it means we bide our time and wait for Turkey to come around. Gamatz, gamatz (kamats, kamats) is only useful as a mantra to encourage ourselves to stay the course, step by step, keeping the pressure up, and believing that justice will prevail in the end.
Turkey will not be interested in reconciliation unless it serves them in some way, such as helping their EU and geopolitical power broker ambitions. Or unless the internal pressure from an enlightened citizenry demands a dramatic shift in democratic and egalitarian policies toward minorities. Nor will the rest of the world care about helping a tiny country and a minority ethnic group achieve a moral victory unless we get and keep their attention by asserting our voices in strength and garnering their support as part of a greater human rights initiative that holds genocide perpetrators accountable.
Turkey wants to sweep the truth about the genocide under their oriental rug, but this won’t happen unless we let them through passivity and apathy.
Boyajian
I posted the following message to the dialogue following the debate on Orhan Kemal Cengiz’ article “The cruelty of the victim” in which he argues much along the lines of Karekin here. However, I did not find msheci’s or my earlier post there. it seems they have been erased.
I wrote in an earlier post commenting on this article that one often meets with a crass anti-turkishness in dialogues with Armenians, notably in the discussions in “Armenian Weekly”. I mentioned cases of Armenians holding that Turks are genetically determined to kill. I want to emphasize that the last point of view is seldom met with, I only noted two cases, and on of these (“msheci”) wrote here in “Daily Zaman” that he had been misunderstood. Even if there to my mind are many posts that are hostile to Turks as such, there are also many Armenians in these debates who do not hold such views and who do not condemn ordinary Turks , but the failure of Turkish governments to relate seriously to Armenians demands and claims that the events of 1915-16 constitutes genocide. But they do not have any explicit anti-turkish attitide to my mind.
Incorrigible Karekin — There is no such a thing as “Anatolian Armenia.” It’s historically “Western Armenia”, or, if mentioned within a specific time period, we may say “Ottoman Armenia” or “Ottoman Armenian provinces”, to be exact. What kind of stubbornness one calling himself an Armenian must have to repeat the same bull**** over and over again?
Have we ever focused our attention on these pages on “invaders who massacred, destroyed and plundered” Armenia? The whole history of human civilization is about wars and invasions, and Armenians are not exclusion. But very few world nations suffered the horror of a state policy of annihilation of a particular national, ethnic, racial, and religious group: the genocide. It is this crime against humanity that we direct our rage at, not wars between nations or invasions by enemy-states. The issue is fundamentally different. In 1915 Armenians suffered the consequence of an official policy of race annihilation instituted by their government, at the time the Ottoman Turkish government. Does it look like an inter-state war or a foreign invasion to you?
Russians closed many churches not because of their policy of extermination of ethnic minorities in their Bolshevik state, but because of atheist ideology that Bolsheviks adopted.
The phrase “Armenians voluntarily pick up and leave for distant lands, where we can live an ersatz Armenian life w/ imagined memories of the fantastic place we left behind” is just outrageous. Excuse me, we lived on our own lands for millennia up until 1915 and no one would pick up and leave. You mean we voluntarily abandoned our homes, pastures, properties, churches, bank accounts and left? Is it insanity or just sheer Armenophobia that you suffer from?
Throughout Western and Eastern Armenia, we also have many fortresses for your information, but when civilized peoples confronted hordes of Seljuk and Mongol savages and then Ottoman Turks, they unfortunately couldn’t protect themselves for a long. Even mighty Constantinople fell to those invaders from Mongolian steppes. Military fortifications cannot substitute churches, houses of Christian worship, that Armenians built to testify their faith and that are indicative of the fact that Armenians were not nomadic savages thinking of material gains, but settled, civilized people strengthening their faith, excelling in arts, literature, architecture, trade, and commerce.
As for “begging, pleading, demanding recognition is not the way to get it,” so many commentators here addressed this for so many times that I think it’s a waste of time to shake your head. We already have, as a result of our efforts and the integrity of many other individuals and institutions, an impressive array of foreign governments, international organizations, professional associations, and scholars that wrote Armenians back into the “narrative.” I don’t need Turks to write Armenians in it, the world knows who we are, whether by noticing “Urartu” on the Babylonian map Imago Mundi or “Armenia” on the World Map of Ptolemy. Let Turks learn more as to what tent-living invading ancestors they’ve had, where they came from, when they appeared on the world map, and whose lands and culture they’ve stolen.
There has to be a substantial step on the part of the Turkish government so we see they started to repent. Restoring the facade of a church for PR purposes, transferring it into a museum, then to a church for just one day, with no cross atop is not such a step. A substantial one, to me, would be placing all Armenian churches and monasteries—or what is left of them as a result of Turks’ “religiously tolerant” policy, to be exact—under the jurisdiction of Armenian Patriarchate in Constantinople. After all, allowing Armenians to practive religion in their houses of worship was the requirement of the Lausanne Treaty that the Turks signed in 1923.
katia
I cannot relate to your post since you do not adress things I actually said. Did I ever use the word “exaggerated”? And in what context? And I dont need the you tube video to know about the destruction of Armenian monuments. And dont interpret me like not caring. Your way of writing is………
— Of course the pain of the victims and the outrages committed can never be exagerrated, if you have in mind that what people experiences in situations like this can not be measured in words. For this reason we use expressionsa like “indescrabable” and “unthinkable”. But regarding the whole Armenian movement arising from the Medz Yeghern and the various actions arising from this, there are different opinions. One of them is that of Ara Sarafian who claims that Armenian historiograpy suppress memoirs that do not fit into the general picture. He dedicated himself to publishing memoirs who show a more nuanced picture.
Ragnar,
Ara Sarafian does take on several themes developed by other historians. But he affirms the Genocide. What is your point?
Ragnar,
The posters here are unknown, private people.
Why do you not take on the President Elect of the ATAA, Ergun Kirlikovali, who has said that the average Diasporan wants to kill any Turk on sight, is a liar, traitor etc.? Who wrote on 1/17/07 that Hrant Dink was likely killed by an Armenian? Who compared the Genocide to a joke about the death of a fly?
Dear boyajian,
Please be advised that both my and Ragnar Naess’ comments in the dialogue following the debate on Orhan Kemal Cengiz’ article “The cruelty of the victim” in “Today’s Zaman” have not been erased. Here’s the link to the article: http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/columnists-220171-cruelty-of-the-victim-jews-armenians-and-others.html. If you scroll down you’ll see both my (msheci , Sep 17 2010 01:37, Friday) and Mr Naess’ comments (ragnar naess , Aug 27 2010 20:45, Friday) present there safe and sound.
Regards,
M
Ragnar, I appreciate the effort you made to clarify your previous statement in Today’s Zaman and ameliorate any harm the original statement may have caused.
Ragnar Naess, commenting on Daily Zaman: “But at the same time we should convince victims to bury their dead and carry on with their lives”. “It is a fact that many Armenians,Diaspora Armenians and other Armenians,continue the campaign to receive a recignition of the catastrophe that befell them and reparations for the extensive material losses they incurred. We have no right to question this. The phraze that they should “bury their dead and go on living” is unfortunate. But We should debate with them if we hold that their views are exaggerated or unfounded. It is not unusual to meet a crass anti-turkishness among Armenians who participate in the debates, for instance in “Weekly Armenian”. It is said that Turks are genetically disposed towards violence, to take one example. While acknowleding the great crime committed in 1915, I protest against such attitudes.Other Armenians are seldom protesting against these utterances. Then I agree with Orhan Kemal Cengiz.”
Ragnar, I do not have the time to find all your past posts where you used the word “exaggerated” referring to our reaction to the atrocities that befell us (and you have several times). Yes, why don’t you and your friends debate with us if our views are exaggerated. To do that, you cannot hide behind adjectives such as “indescribable”, you need to face the facts and all the gory details head on… something you have not done, and yet you give yourself the authority to question if our views are exaggerated.
As usual you dismiss or ignore uncomfortable questions. I asked a question many posts ago that you did not respond to… Here’s the question one more time: You were appalled that someone here wondered if there could be a genetic factor or cultural factor in case of closed societies that allowed the Ittihadists and all the Turks and Kurds who helped them, massacre us in such a barbaric fashion that was reminiscent of their ancestors the Seljuks and Mongols, who throughout history have been know to be vicious warriors. You said several times that what appalled you most was the fact that the other commentators did not object to this outrageous observation, therefore you were propelled to attribute this view to all discussions in Armenian Weekly and take it to the Daily Zaman. I asked you, using the same logic that you employ, if we should assume that since the Turkish administrations have so far not voiced their condemnation of the known barbaric ways their ancestors killed the Armenians with, that they approved of them or considered them normal behavior?
And of course, you are not appalled by the pictures of the abandoned Armenian churches… you did not even have to see them!…. what kind of a “reaction” is this! All you do is downplay whatever we have to say… maybe because you cannot come up with anything to counter them, and you are waiting for another inflammatory remark to run to Daily Zaman with. Why don’t you be a braver scientist and take the question I just asked you to the Turks? If they are not condemning, does that mean they are approving?
mjm, I like your suggestion that we discuss the results of the Sourp Khatch event now that it has passed and assess whether it had a net positive or negative effect on the Armenian Cause. Not just because, I think it is important for us to learn and re-evaluate our approach to achieving our goals, but also because I am so tired of debating with Karekin. He is entitled to his goofy, self-deprecating, turko-groveling opinions. I even agree with some things he says at times. But I think, in general, we give too much energy toward engaging in debate with him. Let him offer a constructive suggestion that puts his viewpoint into action, then I’ll consider the merits of his thoughts. However, his incessant harping on Armenians is destructive as is our over-wrought attention to his provocative comments. Maybe if we stop reinforcing his babblings with our attention he will learn to re-evaluate his style of communicating his ideas. Just a thought.
Now to the Akhtamar event. Was it a ‘wash’ or did either side gain anything here? I agree with Harut Sassounian that it is a shame that we spent so much time debating between ourselves rather than pooling our energy and organizing protest around the world to inform the public of the more important back-story to this otherwise obvious pr stunt. It was an opportunity lost. But what can we learn from this and how should we go forward?
The following link is to an Aljazeera report on Akhtamar:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSd0rJAu2ls
Mjm, I liked your previous suggestion that we organize services at the numerous churches throughout the former vilayets under our own auspices. A ‘road to home’ tour is a great idea.
Katia, you are brilliant! Right on!: “Why don’t you be a braver scientist and take the question I just asked you to the Turks? If they are not condemning, does that mean they are approving?”
Ragnar, once again you have me wondering about your motives. Was it reckless anger, self-aggrandizement, feeble-mindedness or deliberate malice that propelled you to write such skewed remarks in the original comment you made in Today’s Zaman? Your clarification is helpful, but does little to reestablish trust in you. It came after much protestation on your part and you may merely be trying to smooth over the pavement in order to draw us back into discussion with you for whatever unknown purpose you may have. If there is any sincerity in your professed desire to help Turks and Armenians, I strongly recommend that you spend some time in self-reflection to assess your biases. Even so, some bridges cannot be rebuilt once burnt.
Agreed, Boyajian. To start with, I’ll come up with a summary of media responses to the Akhtamar event in terms of what aspects surrounding the event have been covered (i.e. those that might be considered relating to the Cause)
In the meantime, here’s one poll posted in Keghart.com re: the need for attendance:
http://www.keghart.com/poll/aghtamar-holy-mass
Once again, Armenians do not need to hear the genocide story over and over again, along with your tirades….we already know the drill, and frankly, considering the lack of results after 95 years, are rather sick of it and the lack of progress you’ve achieved. Self-reinforcement of your positions as seen here is patently useless. Yes, if someone will say the ‘right’ things, participate in group-think and support your views, they can get accolades. Big whoop! However, if you really want to see a change in this dysfunctional dynamic with Turks, you indeed need to change your approach and your message. Sorry, but the fact that you can’t see your own limitations is a huge part of the problem. I don’t see anyone here advocating a true dialogue or anything that would encourage crossing the divide between Armenians and Turks. I’ve noticed that many people here have dug in their heels and just repeat the same things over and over again. The point is…who is listening? Try this approach in any other area of your life and basically, people will walk away in disgust, shaking their heads. You may feel that you can bully people with your insults, but guess what? You can’t. It might make you feel better and feel important, but it does not work. Sadly, from what I read here, this is the exact same kind of resistance to dialogue that Hrant Dink encountered while he was alive. Not many people in the diaspora paid much attention to him while he was alive and in fact, often denigrated him and his message. Yet, it is exactly that message that needs to be heard and repeated within the Armenian community.
Boyajian,
My ‘impression, specifically regarding the prevalence of anti-turkishness in AW readers and Armenians in general’ is that it exists in some participants and although it can be really disturbing I agree that there are reasons for it that lies in the general ‘crass anti-Armenian-ness’ among Turks and also Turkish failure to recognize even slightest wrongs done in the past… So I see it as not agreeable but reasonable…
As for your second question, mine was not a ‘rhetorical question to draw out the argument against [re-flourishment of Armenian culture in those lands]’. I personally see justice in this scenario; it is the right thing no matter what practical benefits/problems it might bring.
Indeed there are many ‘Turks (and Kurds) who could imagine and accept the “re-flourishment of Armenian culture in those lands.”…‘land without feeling threatened’. There are those who wouldn’t care or feel unthreatened in some way. Actually, I was very much surprised to hear some Kurds from Van were talking about the ‘return’ as not a very distant prospect. But I’m very sure, remarks like the one made just recently by Giro Minoyan doesn’t help to keep the general Turkish-Kurdish public opinion feel ‘unthreatened’: he says no government in RoA can dismiss territorial claims from Turkey. If the translation of his words is correct, he says that Armenian people will not accept anything less than the transfer of ‘Western Armenia’ in terms of reparations.
Now, one may suggest Minoyan (or Tashnaks in general) merely mention how things are. But I don’t believe the majority of Armenians view this as a minimum for normalization of ties, if so, sorry to say, this will never ever happen. This is simply because no Turkish government can wilfully accept this. Unless we return back to nuclear-civil-extermination-war scenario, we have to support the strengthening of democratic values and political culture in Turkey. I’m not saying a strategy of appeasement is the only way to go. However, we can make claims that are regarded ‘controversial’ or even ‘shocking’ to our adversaries in two different ways: by emphasising that ‘our’ claim is more in line with ‘their’ own values/goals; or by openly confronting them by making them more threatened. I do not think Karekin would like to see Armenians dropping their ‘historical/moral’ claims but rendering them more acceptable from the point of view of progressive elements within Turkish civil society.
Actually, Boyajian, the idea of organizing services at the churches throughout the former vilayets under our own auspices came up based on a documentary that I watched back in late 1990s-early 2000s on Armenian TV. It was about Archbishop Mesrob Ashjian’s (then Prelate of the Eastern Prelacy of the Armenian Apostolic Church of America, now deceased) journey that took him into history of Armenia in eastern vilayets. Archbishop was accompanied by a group of Diasporan Armenians. What they did was they visited most of the churches and monasteries during a period of two or three weeks and prayed either outside a preserved structure or just near a pile of stones or a wall or whatever remained of a church or a monastery. You know, one thing is when you watch the ruins on the photos or the video, but quite a different thing is when a group of Armenians takes you with them on a virtual journey. The multi-part documentary was so touching and emotional that my whole family wept when watching. We still remember episodes of it. I could only find an article on this journey posted in the Armenian Reporter “Mesrob Ashjian on a Sentimental Journey to Western Armenia” dated July 19, 1997, but I’m pretty sure the video should exist either here, in Armenia, or in the Prelacy.
Katia jan… inch asem.. you are brilliant… I nominate you to be our spokeperson on all the Turkish sites along with Boyajian, Karo, Msheci, Mjm and Jda. Maybe with full force of this small group we can spread some truth and meaning to all those who are not part of our history and deny it with every living cell in their body ……………. (Murats)…… Maybe we can soften and spread some sense in those who are anti- Genocidal with education …… (Roberts….although i doubt this man has a chance to recover from his illnes)….maybe we can finally open those eyes that say there may be Genocide BUT ………………………….. (Ragnars)…. maybe we can shake them symphathizers out of their dream world….. (Karekins)… we have to sread our wealth of knowledge around and the Turkish site is the BEST way to express our thoughts, frustration, requests, and questions…
You are THE BEST TEAM I have ever worked with…Thank you…:)
Gayane
Karekin,
You repeat your point ad nauseum, and its not much of a point to begin with. Yes, we all know that we will not open the mind of the proverbial Turkish cab driver if we say things that offend him. Got it. Yes Haskanar. Really. Got it.
But the Turkish man in the street does not read the comments in AW. So I doubt that anyone has harmed the peace process. Moreover, as between the average AA, who is usually way too careful to minimize the role of the average 1915 Turk in the Genocide and theft, and the average Turk, who is schooled at the Academy of Sari Gelin, it is we who have a far stronger reason for taking offense.
The larger question is what are the benefits of demanding recognition, reparation and restoration.
I had favored backing off under the theory that Turks will not become honest and humane under external pressure. Then I met a v famous Turkish academic who said that honest Diaspora efforts and demands for justice are vital to achieving recognition by the Turkish state. Backing off demanding justice will make the TR forget the whole thing.
Why don’t you post on the variousTurkish hate sites such as Turkish Forum and demand humanity and honesty from them?
Memik: You appear to be a reasonable person, but do please elaborate as to how your paradigm “by emphasizing that our claim is more in line with [our adversaries’] own values and goals” can work out, if at the core of the issue is the lands of our ancestors that were stolen from us as a result of genocidal extermination of the population? I fail to see how our value and goal of making Turkey admit the guilt and make reparations to Armenians can be “in line” with Turkey’s own values and goals, i.e. deny the crime and make no reparations. What can lowering of the tone of our rightful indignation and justified pretensions do in such an equation?
No dialogue with Turks should be made untill their penal code 301 is abolished and they appologize for the Genocide or France criminalizes denial of the Armenian Genocide. No Armenian should visit Turkey unless the Turkish establishment or individual can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they are not sitting on stolen Armenian property or benefited somehow from the murder of Armenians. It is that simple. I can’t figure out why people want to have a dialogue with these denialists. Did the Jews start a dialogue with the Germans before the Nuerenberg trials?
Dear Boyajian and Gayane jan,
If I am “brilliant”, it is only because you all inspire me…
By the way, Senator Boxer just put a “hold” on Matt Bryza’s nomination… yelling and screeching does work sometimes doesn’t it!
Again, I find it amusing for anyone to issue rules of engagement that Armenians need to abide by…no this, no that until we get this or that from Turkey. What do you think we are, mindless robots or children? Everyone needs to remember that our situation is not the same as blacks demanding justice in a white America, where blacks are 10% of the population, nor the same as Jews after the Holocaust. The world is not going to do anything with regard to Armenian issues as you see them. It has moved on. So, with that in mind, it is up to Armenians to work things out with Turks and Turkey, directly and without anger, fear or rage. My point is that it can be done and can be successful if it is done properly, intelligently and calmly. Like it or not, you can scream at a rock until you are blue in the face, but that will not move the rock from point A to point B. So, if you really and sincerely want to move the rock, keep that lesson at the forefront of your minds and adjust your strategies accordingly. Unless of course, you enjoy screaming and get some kind of existential pleasure out of it, then keep screaming, but do it in private…please.
And by the way, how do you know I don’t post pro-Armenian commentary onto Turkish sites? There’s alot one can say that is very pro-Armenian without being angry, hateful, racist or even anti-Turkish. I know that may come as a surprise to some, but trust me, having a dialogue with those you hope to educate is much better than having none at all. It increases your chances for success immeasurably.
Karekin,
Your posts betray naivete about statecraft.
Nation States take actions when it is in their strategic and economic interest to do so. The Turks are heirs to 500 years of careful Ottoman statecraft, often designed by Armenian and Greek Christians. The state will not care how angry or combative Armenians may be. It will not care how friendly or warm Armenians may be. Turkey is only concerned with projecting power in her neighborhood and EU accession. She keeps AZ. happy in part because of a professed and quite superficial Turkic affinity, but one suspects that such solidarity is in direct proportion to Azeri oil and gas reserves, and not much more.
Turkey has made a few feeble gestures towards Armenians and Armenia, of which the Akhtamar debacle is the latest. These gestures all have in common that they lack substance, and are in part designed to appeal to some domestic constituency or project, such as the revitalization of eastern Anatolia. They probably represent the maximum which we can expect. These gestures were made grudgingly in part for the EU audience, not Yerevan or Glendale.
There is no deliverable which Armenians command that will influence the Turkish state much. It does not matter if we demonize or lionize them.
I agree that Armenians should treat individual Turks politely,if that is your point. Who cares.
boyajian
I was shocked because of the many anti-turkish statements, and I wrote this comment too quickly. Does that never happen to you?
jda
for my point read my message again and try to concentrate on what I wrote.
I have had innumerable discussions with Turks, and your “why dont you…” is very strange. You only see my posts here and not in other places
Keriken,
The answer to your question is yes. Furthermore, no Turk should be treated politely unless they accept and aknowledge the Armenian Genocide and start making repirations. If Turkey will not aknowledge the Genocide, then France will criminalize denial of the Armenian Genocide as a form of a hate crime. Turkey will never be allowed to join the EU untill it no longer occupies Cypruss (who has a veto right) and Western Armenia. It is that simple. No Christain European will visit Anatolia and the churches knowing the bloody treachery commited by Turks.
Karekin… maybe we should say it in Armenian what we have said in English over and over and over.. i don’t get it.. are you not capable of reading our comments and truly understanding what message we have been trying to instill in you?
WHERE IN THE WORLD do you get that Armenians are hateful, spiteful, rude, VAYRENI(your favorite word for Armenians), screamers, scratchers and racist.. are you out of your confused mind????
All we have done here is to try to make you and the rest of the people who are confused, in denial, or in their own crazed world, that we ARE NOTHING LIKE THAT.. on the contrary… i asked you SEVERAL TIMES.. and I will ask again…if you have such great ideas and strategies why don’t you share it with us….because according to you we are stupid and what we are doing currently is absolutely crazy and unacceptable by Turks standards… Go ahead.. enlighten this group of out of touch group…
This man is going to give all of us an ulcer with his remarks and comments… i swear…
Ragnar you said..
I was shocked because of the many anti-turkish statements, and I wrote this comment too quickly. Does that never happen to you
There is nothing to be shocked about Ragnar because we tell facts.. we tell what we know.. we don’t pull information out of thin air… so why are you shocked? do you need to see a shock therapist? i hope our fact filled comments did not give you a heart attack.. oh noo.. i would not want that…
Oh by the day, you never write anything too quickly Ragnar.. you are calculated, very careful….you yourself said you dont’ jump conclusino until you gather the information and make the analysis…. well if that is your job and you are soo socientific, then writing anything too quickly should not be part of your characteristic…right???
If you are talking about ordinary people, then that happens of course..people make an error of writing something to quickly but you are not an ordinary person Ragnar. did not you made that clear to us in our past experience with you?.. so the reasoning of writing something too quickly does not apply to you…at least i don’t think so.. you knew exactly what you were writing.. no doubt about that…you controdict yourself over and over and over Ragnar.. give it up.. you have been caught and you can’t make it right… PERIOD…
Actually Ragnar.. actually, after thinking about it… YOU can definintely make it right….. but that may take some time, great deal of soul searching, great deal of making comments on Turkish forums, and of course most important of them all.. for you to finally understand that Genocide DID HAPPEN…and work toward helping your Turkish friends and Turks get educated on that….
Ragnar,
Thank you for the help in formulating a winning strategy to understand your writing. I have really, really, deeply concentrated on your messages. I have ignored the typos and missing words, as well as the peculiar syntax, which makes it seem as if your native language is not Norwegian, but rather Martian.
I have never seen you denounce any writer or position denying Genocide or demonizing Armenians, for example, any of the 5,000 posts to date from Mr. Kirlikovali, some of which are different, and all of which describe Armenians [and now, Grek Cypriots] in language only he or Goebbels might appreciate e.g. Armenians are a race of traitors, murderers, liars, frauds, you get the picture. I do read Zaman and Hurriyet when I have Pepto Bismol handy.
One suspects that you are trying to get in on the Turkish money bonanza, e.g. write a third rate book crtitical of Armenains in some fashion, or maybe deliver some hack paper on conflict resolution, and get invites to teach at some Turk University. After all, winter there is far more inviting to those gnarled old hands than Winter in Oslo, nicht wahr?
Ragnar, you’re a pedant presuming to give lessons in manners and history, when you lack the former and are untutored in the latter, not to mention a true korkak on every score. Turkish word, that. I doubt even the Turks would have you. Although they did seem to appreciate Sam Weems, the disbarred lawyer a few years back. They always appreciate a white face, even if the brain behind is off duty .
Here’s a synopsis of extracts from major news agencies that covered the Akhtamar event. Please note that these are excerpts that I thought could shed light on whether the media outlets have covered issues associated with the event, i.e. genocide recognition, publicity stunt vs. gesture of reconciliation, Turkey’s “religious tolerance” buffoonery, state of Armenian cultural heritage in Turkey, etc., and, if they did, whether their coverage has made it clear why there’s no Armenians’ presence around the church, in the Van province and in Turkey more broadly; as a result of what action on the part of the Turks there are no Armenians nowadays; and whether the Turkish crumb of allowing a church to function as a house of worship for just one day in its bid to appease the Europeans is picked up by these news agencies. At this stage I’ll withhold comments, allowing you to share thoughts.
EurasiaNet.org:
[t]he Holy Cross Church has not hosted services for 95 years, since Ottoman Turkey’s 1915 slaughter of hundreds of thousands of ethnic Armenians in eastern Turkey
[t]he question many have is if the church’s one-day opening represents a true breakthrough in terms of Turkey’s willingness to confront its past or if the event was little more than a glorified public relations event
[t]he one-day opening of the church might not be enough to help start a thaw in the now frozen reconciliation process between Turkey and Armenia
Instead of broadcasting the Holy Cross service, Armenian television aired scenes from a protest held at Yerevan’s memorial to Ottoman Turkey’s 1915 slaughter of hundreds of thousands of ethnic Armenians in eastern Turkey, an act most Armenians consider as genocide. Prior to the September 19 service, Holy Cross had not functioned as a church since the massacre
FOCUS News Agency (Bulgarian private information agency):
The church, on an island in Lake Van, was damaged during the mass killing of Armenians during the First World War
Turkey has allowed the Mass to take place in the hope that it will be seen as a gesture of reconciliation, but some have denounced the move as a publicity stunt
Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty:
Critics said the Mass was merely a campaign to improve Turkey’s image and promote its bid to join the European Union
Van’s large Armenian community was expelled in 1915 during the upheaval that accompanied World War I and the breakup of the Ottoman Empire
The World War I-era mass killings of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey, which Armenia recognizes as the first genocide of the 20th century, still remains a major stumbling block to reconciliation between the two neighbors. Ankara rejects the term genocide and says large number of both Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks were killed
CNN World:
Communities of Armenians once thrived along the shores of Lake Van. Many were pushed out in 1915, however, when hundreds of thousands of ethnic Armenians were marched into the desert and massacred by Ottoman Turkish troops. Today, Armenians call the Ottoman-era massacres “genocide,” a term that is angrily rejected by the Turkish state.
AOL.news:
The Turkish government has portrayed the event as a gesture of religious tolerance and rapprochement with Armenia, which is at odds with Turkey over the classification of massacres carried out by Ottoman forces in the late 19th and early 20th centuries
The Armenians claim Turks killed up to 1.5 million Armenians between 1915 and 1917 in a deliberate attempt to eradicate them as an ethnic minority. Countries including France, Russia and Greece have recognized the genocide, while the U.S. and Britain have not, in line with Turkey’s position that the deaths were part of the events of World War I. Ankara acknowledges that large numbers of Armenians died but says the deaths did not constitute genocide. It accuses the Armenian population of working with foreign powers to try to bring down the Ottoman Empire
Some see the Mass as an attempt by Turkey to appear to be advancing the rights of its minorities in the eyes of the international community while shunning real engagement with Armenia. “We were the first to launch this initiative, order renovation and issue permission for annual liturgies. It shows Turks’ tolerance,” said Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, speaking about the Mass
The cross is thought to have been knocked off the top of the cathedral in 1915, when it was looted and the surrounding monastic buildings burned
Al Jazeera English:
The church was closed in 1915 and reopened as a museum in 1997. It is reopening for religious services for one day as a symbolic gesture by the Turkish government
Last month, the government also allowed the celebration of mass at the Sumela Greek Orthodox monastery. Religious services there had been banned for 88 years
Los Angeles Times:
It was the first service held in the 1,100-year-old Armenian Church of the Holy Cross since 1915, when a wave of violence nearly destroyed one of the largest Christian communities in the Middle East
The 8-year-old government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan has strived to heal the wounds of the past by reaching out to Armenians in Turkey and abroad in an attempt to bolster its international reputation and smooth out obstacles to possible Turkish entry into the European Union
Voice of America:
Turkey’s Van province and much of the country’s east was home to a large Armenian community until 1915 when they became the target of massacres and mass deportations during World War One
Armenia says the killings of an estimated 1.5 million Armenians between 1915 and 1923 constituted genocide, a charge rejected by Turkey. Turkey says the death toll is greatly exaggerated, and that the Armenians died in a civil war that accompanied the collapse of the Ottoman Empire
BBC Europe:
The church, on an island in Lake Van, was damaged during the mass killing of Armenians during World War I
Turkey has allowed the Mass to take place in the hope it will be seen as a gesture of reconciliation, but some have denounced the move as a publicity stunt
Many Armenians also chose not to come, seeing the service as an inadequate step from a government which still refuses to acknowledge the mass killings of Armenians in this area as a genocide
This region [Van] of Turkey was once mainly populated by Armenians
Turkey still tightly controls all forms of religious expression, and the government is only taking timid steps, fearing a nationalist backlash if it is seen to be making too big a concession towards the Armenians
Hundreds of thousands of Armenians died in mass killings and deportations by Ottoman Turk forces in 1915-16
Armenia says 1.5 million people were killed in a genocide, but Turkey strongly rejects the charge, saying the number of deaths has been inflated and that the people died as a result of the strife of World War I
[t]he monks and priests were all killed in 1915, along with most of the population of the area
“Let’s just say that this is a beginning,” said Harry Parsekian, a retired estate agent from Boston, whose parents escaped the Armenian killings
Paul Shahenian[‘s] family came from Van, and his grandparents barely escaped the mass slaughter which began in April 1915
Many Armenians boycotted this service, either because they do not trust a government which will not acknowledge the 1915 killings as a genocide, or over the government’s refusal to hand the church back to the Armenian Patriarchate
Nationalists in Turkey still fear that Armenia has designs on their eastern provinces
After all, the city of Van was briefly taken over by the Armenian community in 1915 after an armed uprising
At the Treaty of Sevres in 1920, following the Ottoman defeat in World War I, the city was awarded to a new Armenian state
It was only with the military successes of Turkish nationalists under Ataturk that the city reverted to Turkish rule
The Wall Street Journal:
Others exchanged stories about the ancient Armenian civilization that once existed in Turkey, but was almost erased in 1915 in what many regard as genocide. Turkey strongly denies that a genocide took place, describing the killings as the tragic result of a civil war in which all sides suffered
Often criticized for its treatment of Christian minorities, Ankara has promoted the services as proof of its growing commitment to religious tolerance. Critics say the tightly controlled services are a carefully choreographed public-relations campaign designed to boost Turkey’s prospects of joining the European Union, for which it is a candidate
Associated Press:
[t]he first Mass held in the church since it was abandoned during the mass killings of Armenians 95 years ago
Turkey and Armenia are locked in a bitter dispute over the deaths of Armenians in Turkey. Many historians estimate that up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks in what constituted a genocide around the time of World War I. Turkey disputes this, saying the toll has been inflated and those killed were victims of civil war and unrest
Efforts to overcome historical animosity and normalize ties between the neighbors launched last year have been dealt a setback by the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan over the enclave of Nagorno-Karabakh. Azerbaijan is a close Muslim ally of Ankara
Some of Turkey’s 65,000 Armenian Orthodox Christians complain of harassment in Turkey, which has an overwhelmingly Muslim population
Hrant Dink, an ethnic Armenian journalist murdered in Istanbul in 2007, was apparently targeted by nationalists for his commentaries on minority rights and the killings of Armenians a century ago
The Washington Post:
Hundreds of Armenians gathered at the 10th-century Holy Cross Church near Van for the first religious service there since the mass killings of Armenians in 1915. The event, at a site considered sacred by many Armenians, was seen as a symbolic gesture by Turkey to mend relations with Armenia. Last week, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan called the reopening of the church “an expression of Turks’ tolerance.”
Armenians claim that 1.5 million people were killed in an act of genocide between 1915 and 1917. The Turkish government acknowledges that thousands of Armenians were killed, but denies that the events constituted a genocide
But not all Armenians saw the ceremony as an honest effort by Turkey. Even before the cross controversy led some tour groups to cancel their visit to the church, Armenian commentators labeled the occasion a publicity stunt. The Turkish invitation to prayer at the church was seen as a way for Turkey to score points with the European Union, which has been pressuring the country to grant more freedom to its minorities.
Reuters UK:
The serenity of the scene belies a traumatic past that haunts Turkey and Armenia to this day.
For Armenians across the world, the church in eastern Anatolia is a testimony to centuries of persecution, deportations, and mass killings at the hands of Ottoman forces
Muslim Turkey and Christian Armenia are bitterly divided over their troubled history and the border between them remains closed despite U.S.-brokered peace accords signed last year
Church officials say the holy site in Akdamar has been appropriated by the Turkish state. Because it is a public building, expressions of religious belief are not tolerated under Turkey’s strict secular constitution
Often criticised in the West for its treatment of Christian minorities, Ankara has promoted the mass as proof of commitment to tolerance. Critics say the one-day service is a public relations campaign to improve EU candidate’s Turkey’s image
Efforts at normalising ties suffered a setback in April when Yerevan froze ratification of an accord after months of deadlock from both sides. It would establish ties and called for an “impartial and scientific” investigation into the 1915 events
Armenia, backed by many historians and world parliaments, says some 1.5 million Armenians died during the upheavals that accompanied World War I and labels the events as genocide.
Ankara rejects the term genocide and says large numbers of both Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks were killed
Reuters Canada:
Nearly a thousand Armenian Orthodox worshippers out of the expected 5,000 people attended the service at the Church of the Holy Cross, which the government has hailed as a sign of growing religious tolerance in the predominantly Muslim country, which is a European Union candidate
The church, which has been closed for services since the 1915 mass killings of Armenians at the hands of Ottoman troops, has become a symbol of Turkey’s troubled past with its Armenian minority and a painful process of reconciliation
Turkey closed its border with Armenia in 1993 in solidarity with Muslim ally Azerbaijan over its war with Armenia, but in recent years the two nations have sought to normalize relations
AsiaNews.it:
Built more than a thousand years ago, Holy Cross Armenian Church is a beautiful specimen of Armenian architecture, but for Armenians and the international community it symbolises the Armenian “genocide”, a term rejected by Turkey
In 2005, Turkish Armenian journalist Hrant Dink, who was murdered in January 2007, called for its reopening so as “to restore our spent souls”
Charlie Rose,
Last night Charlie Rose had the Turkish president Gul on the show. Apparently there is still a “Gag Order” on the show not to discuss Armenian Genocide issues so as not to disturb the sponsors of the Charlie Rose show (BIG OIL). As usual, Charlie put on soft gloves and asked questions that no one cared about in order to bolster Turkey’s image. I recall Charlie’s twisted questions to bolster the cause for the Iraq war. Currently, the news media has to be punished by Armenians as well for the lack of coverage of the Armenian cause. Gul didn’t even call Armenia by its name but instead lumped it as the “Caucuses”.
We need to punish Charlie Rose for his pandering to sponsors instead covering the unbiased news.
Yes, Ragnar, it has happened to me. I have said the wrong thing in the wrong place at the wrong time and lived to regret it. The understanding you request from me for your “unfortunate comment” written in anger is what you should have offered to those Armenians who you openly criticized in a Turkish Newspaper. My hope is that you come to realize that you can’t judge what you don’t understand. The so-called ‘crass anti-turkishness’ you see in some Armenians comes from a frustration you have no way of comprehending. Neither do you understand how painful it is for Armenians to hear you repeat some of the Turkish propaganda that has been designed for the sole purpose of avoiding facing a dark and shameful past.
As it is often said in psychiatry/psychology, there can only be change in a patient if the patient recognizes a problem exists and wants to make a change. In other words, he’s got to want it so badly that he will actively participate in the change process. Here the patient apparently is Turkey, and you want it to change to suit your wants/needs. Clearly, that is not enough to institute change, otherwise it would have happened by now. At this point, there is some positive movement and change is taking place, albeit slowly and in baby steps, as a result of some clearly tangible incentives. So, isn’t it better to encourage the patient to continue moving forward, rather than criticizing his every move and causing a setback? At some point, the diaspora needs to realize it is not in control of the situation. It is on the outisde looking in. That is why talk therapy is highly recommended in this case, because it has been shown to be highly effective. No one should be afraid of honest talk, on either side of this equation, unless they want the old status quo to continue.
Kiazer,
You MUST be joking, right? Your racism and gross biggoted hatred is showing just a tad. After reading your posts, all anyone can really say to you and your cohorts is…ZEIG HIEL!!!
Memik, you are very surprising. How rare are your opinions among Turks? I especially appreciate your compassionate understanding regarding negative feelings that some Armenians have toward Turkey and Turks. I also understand some of the confusion and animositythat uninformed and misinformed Turks have when encounter Armenian indignation toward Turkey.
Giro Minoyan’s comments, I am sure, were sincere. Many Armenians have the hope that Armenia can achieve the land mass that was outlined by President Wilson in the Treaty of Sevres. This was a plan that in recent history came closest to dignifying Armenians with the recognition of a claim to their historical territories. Can you blame them for not wanting to relinquish to Turkey what was taken through murder and theft? At minimum, Armenians look to Van, Ani, and Mt. Ararat, etc., and all the songs, stories, dances, foods, art and architecture, religious and historical heroes that originated there and feel we must rescue our own from captivity. The culture that evolved on that soil over thousands of years has not been erased even though its caretakers were forced out. A mere one hundred years can’t erase a millenia-long collective memory that has rooted into the very essence of a people.
First of all Gayane, calm down…nobody is threatening you nor wants to harm you. You are safe, believe me. And, the genocide is safe too…you really need to understand that there isn’t an Armenian on earth who would deny or challenge history or the truth. That said, the task at hand is how to break thru the protective shell that was created by Turkish nationalists, the inheritors of the CUP, and reach the audience that counts most….the Turkish public and Turkish policy makers. These are the people who put a stupid law like 301 into practice and demonize their own citizens for opening their mouths! You want to know what my idea of a strategy would be? It would be intelligent and endless dialogue, education and involvement with Armenians. Now, I’m not advocating a forum for an endless barrrage of demands, but I am advocating anything that will reacquaint Turks with Armenians in a positive way. The level of distrust must be ratcheted down and that can only happen if people from both sides can interact. Of course, there are Armenians in Turkey right now, but the problem is really with Armenians outside of Turkey, isn’t it? They need to be educated about Turkey as much as the Turkish public needs to learn about Armenians and the genocide. But believe me, it is happening slowly but surely. Just take a walk thru Istanbul, look into the windows of bookstores…you’d be shocked at how many books are on display that talk about Armenians, Akhtamar, etc, etc, etc. I certainly haven’t seen that many books on display in shop windows in the US that focus on American Indians. We all know that time heals all wounds…this is a very deep wound and will require alot of time, as we have seen…but, it will happen as long as the positive aspects of this process are encouraged and not squelched by lies, innuendos and false accusations.
Karekin you said
No one should be afraid of honest talk, on either side of this equation, unless they want the old status quo to continue.
Ok.. reality check… Armenians are not afraid of honest talk.. Turkish govt is.. because they know that once they open the doors to a tighly closed crime the flood would be nonstop…TURKISH GOVT has nothing honest about them.. is 95 years of covering the truth, bribing the low life politicians and threatening the world not to even try to utter the word Genocide tell you anything about honesty and integrity and willing to move forward? Wake up from your dream Karekin…
Karekin you say:
That is why talk therapy is highly recommended in this case, because it has been shown to be highly effective.
First: I am not their therapist nor i want to be.. that is not my job… that is their govt’s job who obviously will NEVER do that… why would they? Armenians have tried but they keep being shot down.. so your suggestion Karekin is not feasible or desirable.. Sorry… just so you know..you ONLY give care and help to make them recover IF one wants to recover and accept the help.. clearly from the many many years of show and tell by the Turkish govt, we know they are not willing to do such a thing.. and do tell us please the success affect of talk therapy that has been highly effective? We can’t even talk to you and get you understand .. let alone try to talk to Turkish govt who is manipulative, threatening, anti-Armenian and with Ataturk mentality..pleaseeeee…
Karekin you said:
First of all Gayane, calm down…nobody is threatening you nor wants to harm you. You are safe, believe me. And, the genocide is safe too
Ok.. this sentence was completely out of context.. what was this all about? No one said i am being threatened …but i did say you will give me an ulcer with your outrageous comments..
what do you mean Genocide is safe too? do mind expanding on this??? Also, if we have you advocating for it, i doubt it will be safe..for your history means nothing and we should forget and move on.. right?? …
Karekin you said
I’m not advocating a forum for an endless barrrage of demands, but I am advocating anything that will reacquaint Turks with Armenians in a positive way
What I have a problem Karekin is you think that we have NO RIGHT to demand what is ours.. Well as we told you many many many many many many times, by nicely asking we gained nothing.. 95 years of nothing.. it is time to demand and that is what I intend to do.. there is nothing wrong with demanding what is legally yours Karekin.. this notion is accepted by everyone… we are not threatening, we are not terrorizing, we are not killing, we are not destroying.. we are only demanding what was taken by brutality, and murder.. get it? UNLESS I feel the Turkish govt is willing to drop EVERYTHING that she is using to stop, distort, and deny Armenians and their history.. kabish???? and stop pretending or lying to yourself that with your honest talks you will be able to convince Turkish govt to shake your hand, give a kiss on your cheek and agree to recognize the Genocide, give back our possessions, lands and churches.. GOOD LUCK… in order to change the people in Turkey, you need to change their govt.. and as far as I can see, their govt will not budge on the matter of The Genocide and Armenians…
Really? Turks are selling books written by Armenians? Hmm.. do you have a concrete data about this? How many bookstores, who are the writers, what is in their books, is the Genocide included? I would love to know.. it is a great gesture but before we accept this as a positive step toward to reconciliations and agreements, i want more data….
You may have a vision Karekin of honest talks, talk therapy, peaceful talks… but you keep forgetting what type of govt you are dealing with….. Turkey is calculated, and cold minded and will never allow your peace talks and talk therapy fly unless you overthrow the Genocidal and Anti-Armenian govt of Turkey.. until then, your quite, calm and peace talks will not work…
Anyway… unlike you who thinks we are vayreni, and not willing to play nice (again this is outrageous to think), I also want peace, honest talks, and giving each other a chance but i am a realist in this case and not a dreamer..
Thank you
Gayane
KS jan.. thank you for the post on Charlie Rose..
I am not surprised.. Money talks and Turkey has the money.. Stolen from our ancestors and gotten rich on blood soiled riches… they will get theirs…. Karma is a B*****(()))))*****#*….
We should definintely write to Charlie Rose to say SHAME ON YOU for being soft and instead of being a strong journalist, you cave in to Turkish games… makes me absolutely sick…
Oh look human race.. Robert decided to grace us with his graceful comment yet again..
One person who stands for racism and strong denial is here to tell us we are racist because we are pointing out the ill of our society and media toward justice and truth…
Robert.. have not you learned that being angry, and racist and in denial will not help you succeed in life???..Let is go.. accept and move forward…
Karekin why don’t you use your new strategy on Robert.. lets see if we can have the first success story of honest talk and open communication strategy…
Please keep us updated of your progress…
Thank you and God Bless
Robert,
It was your grandfather who paved the way for the Germans in the methods of murdering and exterminating a race. The Armenian Genocide was the blue print for the Germans. The only persons filled with hate are those who deny the Genocide. Undoubtly, you are one of those. Therefore, follow your own advice.
Boyajian
we can never understand other people fully, but we can listen and we can argue. Especially if attitudes are tied to important themes. Of course the anti-turkishness is understandable, but does that mean we should not point to it? Most human actions are understandable, but it does not mean that we should not express disagreement, argue and so on? I try to repeat over and over again that you have a just cause, that Turkey has never gone honestly into the question of the Armenian genocide. But as you have I aksio have my own view and my own interpretation
Boyajian et al: Can we concentrate on the subject of this article and not reduce ourselves to responding to Turks and Turkophiles on these pages? I think it’s important to analyze media responses to the Akhtamar event, because by having the same mocking one-day Mass next year Turks most probably will try to habituate Armenians to the idea that our churches in eastern provinces can at best be transformed into museums, but under no circumstances can serve the very purpose they’ve been built, i.e. houses of worship. We need to analyze all this and come up with an alternative counter-action based on our first-hand knowledge of the Turkish slyness.
Ok ragnar, let’s agree to disagree. I politely ask you to leave. All you’ve really accomplished is to anger and alienate many people on this site which seems to be your modus operandi, just like your efforts on armworkshop. How about heading over to a Turkish site and pestering them for a change? Regardless of your motives, whether they are for good or evil, you have created more animosity than anything else so ultimately you have failed. Thank you for your consideration.
Ragnar, you need to listen much more and argue less. Your factual base is very skewed. Yes you acknowledge that Armenians have a just cause, but you try too hard to ‘explain’ the Turks as if that will open dialogue. It only pours salt in wounds. Armenians know that Turkey felt threatened and scape-goated us as the empire crumbled and that they somehow try to explain everything away as a by-product of fighting for national security. Really? A whole nation pays for the freedom fighting of a few? How can any civilized Turk buy this? Why does an educated Norwegian spend one second trying to explain to the victims why they were barbarically targeted instead of trying to explain to Turks the truth of their history. You are trying to playing both sides of the fence Ragnar.
Mjm thank you for the quick overview of all the articles about the Aghtamar… I read them and I believe and this is just my opinion.. no newspaper and no readio dived into the true sense of the questions you posted.. i believe the coverage was very minimal and very generic…not in depth…
I want to know your thoughts…
Ragnar.. Joseph gave you good advice.. transfer all your energy on to the Turkish forums.. and I agree with Boyajian.. i said this before too.. you are being wishy washy.. never firm about our cause.. you are playing both sides sir…
Thank you
Gayane
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-222318-centerfear-of-the-cross-the-nationalist-within-bribyi-brorhan-kemalcengizcenter.html
mjm, I agree. Let’s examine what we have learned about the media, about Turks, about the Kurds of Van, the viability of the Patriarch of Istanbul, and the idea of Armenians honoring their ancient churches with visits.
mjm,
thanks for all the work you put into this. I agree that it’s time to concentrate our energy on the task at hand. Where do you suggest we start? Shall we discuss where the equilibrium of international opinion is in terms whether it was a nice gesture versus a publicity stunt? Was Erdogan able to score the points he wanted?
Gina: I suggest we start from evaluating the core issue related to the article we comment on.
Based on how the event was covered by the mass media:
a) Has attendance of several hundreds of mostly Constantinople Armenians or non-attendance of greater numbers of Armenians representing the Republic, the Diaspora, Mother and Cilician Sees contributed to the advancement of the Cause?
b) Has attendance of the smaller group or non-attendance of the larger group of Armenians explained sufficiently as to why the church stood idle for 95 years?
c) Has attendance of the smaller group or non-attendance of the larger group reflected on inadmissibility of transferring a house of worship into a museum and allowing it to function as a church just for one day a year?
d) Has attendance of the smaller group or non-attendance of the larger group made it clear to the world that the event was a Turkish publicity stunt?
e) Has attendance of the smaller group or non-attendance of the larger group shed light on the state of vast Armenian cultural heritage in modern-day Turkey?
f) Has attendance of the smaller group or non-attendance of the larger group was explained by the Turkish trick of not mounting the cross atop or broader explanation of Armenians’ concerns about their cultural heritage, suppressed religious freedom, and xenophobic trends within the Turkish society was given?
g) Has attendance of the smaller group or non-attendance of the larger group of Armenians contributed to the reconciliation process between the Turkish and Armenian sociums?
Sorry mjm. I just saw your post summarizing the media coverage of the event at Akhtamar. Thanks for putting this together for us.
I know you have very strong feelings that non-attendance by Armenians was the right response, but I don’t understand why you want to focus your analysis in terms of the effect of an attending group versus a non-attending group. But I will answer your questions A – G soon.
I can see why MJM posed his questions the way he did… This entire matter was about attending or not attending.. at least the bulk of the debates among Armenians were about attending or not attending and its advantages and disadvantages.. so it is logical to evaluate this issue in those terms…
Once we do that, then whatever else we can talk about and evaluate, we have the option.. lets not have any limitations…
Thank you
Gayane
Boyajian: Let’s leave my strong feelings about non-attendance being the right response aside for a while. In my mind, “attending group versus a non-attending group” model would provide those who supported attendance a possibility to make their own assessment based on the summary of media responses (which might be incomplete, but everyone is welcome to add a response that I might have overlooked favoring his or her position) and the A-G questions that arose in relation to the Cause (they may be incomplete or not accurately posed, so please feel free to add and/or alter them as you wish). Hope this clarifies my position.
To the editorial board,
You are truly a work of art! You won’t even let someone defend themselves!! Is that why you censored and then once again deleted my post? Where is it? Perhaps you don’t realize that by constantly doing this, you are showing anyone, neutral or otherwise, that it’s impossible to post anything on this site that may offer a different point of view. You effectively prevent any chance for intellectual dialogue among site participants. There can only be one reason for this. Just as both Armenian archives (Boston and Yerevan) are still closed, due to the fact that they’re terrified of the truth being found (they’re hiding things, otherwise their doors would have been thrown wide open yeras ago), you refuse to post many of mine, as well as others, posts. The reason…you’re terrified of even a chance of truth coming out and forcing others to actually start to think for themselves! This is a very immature and childish behavior on your parts. But, if this makes you all feel “big”, then nothing that I nor anyone else says will ever make any difference. You are all to be pittied!
Mjm, I am no expert on these matters. My thoughts are my opinion based on my limited knowledge and experience. In general, I had mixed reactions to the media coverage of the Sourp Khatch event. Overall, the coverage was superficial; only the BBC attempted to address the historical background with some depth. I was happy that most articles (that you summarized) noted that the service was the first allowed in 95+ years, that the ‘restored’ church/museum had been damaged and the native Armenians driven out during fighting and massacres that coincided with WWI. Also most mentioned the fact that the true nature of the ‘goodwill gesture’ by Turkey was questioned and seen by some as a PR stunt for EU acceptance and that some Armenians stayed away because the gesture was seen as insufficient and duplicitous. Turkey was not portrayed as the well-intentioned peacemaker being snubbed by Armenians. This is good. I was especially pleased to see the Treaty of Sevres mentioned in the BBC coverage. That showed a little more insight into the complexity of the Armenian cause.
I was disappointed that most (not all) media outlets still talk about the genocide as if it is a claim made by Armenians alone and disputed by Turkey; not an established fact. This seems to indicate that Turkey is winning the PR battle in convincing news editors that the issue is debatable. I was sad to see that the issue is portrayed as a protracted religious/ethnic/tribal disagreement between Turks and Armenians, instead of a case of a government trying to eliminate an ethnic group that was perceived as a threat to national security and nation building aspirations. Or of Armenians waiting for the genocide perpetrators to be brought to justice and to make reparations to the victims.
The question becomes “Would the coverage have been different if more Armenians had attended?” Was the coverage different because so few attended? Who can say for sure? I do think that because relativiely few attended it was treated as a minor event and stock fact sheets were used to generate the articles. I think if a major gathering of Armenians had occurred (several thousands standing outside the church holding their individual wooden crosses and singing hymns) this would have generated more interest on the part of the media and perhaps been treated as a major event that stimulated real curiosity about why a 10th century church is now a museum. We might have seen more Armenians interviewed and quoted for the articles, as well as interviews with local Kurds. Instead it was treated as the run of the mill Turk/Armenian disagreement story.
In the end, I don’t think we advanced our cause, nor do I think we hurt it. It was kind of a non-event for us. (Though I would love to hear from those who attended regarding the impact it made on them and the local population.) I think for Turks it was a disappointment because it was not portrayed in the media as a sincere goodwill gesture of religious tolerance. I don’t think Turks got the mileage out of this that they hoped to get. This is a kind of a victory for us, I guess.
So now my answers to your questions A – G above:
A. I think I have answered this – no, our cause was not directly advanced.
B. The topic of the church standing abandoned for 95 years was touched upon, but only minimally addressed. So, no not sufficiently explained.
C. The idea of turning a church into a museum, and only used once a year, not well explored.
D. Does the ‘world’ now know that it was a PR Stunt? I am not sure about this, though I think most media coverage did address this aspect.
E. Has the vast Armenian cultural heritage in Turkey been made known to the world? I don’t think so.
F. No the Turkish trick of breaking the promise to mount the cross was not well explained to the world.
G. I do believe that the Kurds of Van may have gained some insight into the Armenian Cause through this event though I don’t think this small group in attendance help the reconciliation process with Turks in general.
To Robert: You have us confused with turkey. we don’t have an article 301 in Boston or Yerevan. We have no one imprisoned for something they wrote expressing an opinion. We honour our literary Nobel Prize winners. We don’t take them to court or throw them in jail for expressing an opinion in a book or in an interview.
Exactly Perouz…
AW.. what is this lunetic Robert talking about?? WHy does he keep raving and ranting about his comments being deleted… ??? What is he writing that he soooo desperately want us to read? Please do post whatever he writes.. lets see what unintelligent comments will he be sharing with us…
Robert.. if you are threatening with your Genocidal threats and crazy comments again don’t think you will have the luxury of being posted.. this is not 1915 Turkey.. you can’t threaten with your outrageous posts.. so if that is the case then AW is correct in deleting your comments.. be happy you are not being blocked from ever posting a comment on our sites.. anlamak????
Joseph
i politely ask you to accept that I am in these discussions that apparently are open to all. About what we accomplish in the long run – this is always an open question. I might answer by asking you to use more time in Turkish papers. By the way, I got a lot of positive feedback on the umich-edu listserve and then – and where have YOU been in these discussions. You just appear suddenly to give me an advice to leave…… at the moment I am deciphering the article of Baskin Oran and the comments in the last “Taraf” regarding the invitations of local people in Van to house Armenians who came to the september 19 religious services. It is in Turkish, and my Turkish is not good enough. Why cant YOU join this discussion in “Taraf””? Ask a Turkish friend, if you have one, to translate!!
boyajian
I am very surprised at your words.
you write:
Ragnar, you need to listen much more and argue less. Your factual base is very skewed.
Comment: No, my factual base is not skewed. If we counted the number of sources cited in these discussion, you will see that I cite many more sources that you do. I read Kevorkian, Dadrian and Akcam very carefully and I have referred to all. I simply cannot take your words seriously.
you write:
Yes you acknowledge that Armenians have a just cause, but you try too hard to ‘explain’ the Turks as if that will open dialogue. It only pours salt in wounds. Armenians know that Turkey felt threatened and scape-goated us as the empire crumbled and that they somehow try to explain everything away as a by-product of fighting for national security.
comment:
maybe you know it, maybe others know it, too, but to my mind many of you do not realize the implications of trying to make a diaogue with your adversaries. If we accept that dialogue with Turks are necessary, if we accept that one must address Turks, then inevitably the discussion may founder if Turks feel that “Armenians are just thinking about themselves, they refuse to talk bout our situation”. Then you may of course withdraw and say that you want to talk about the Armenian cause, but it is much better to concede the Turkish situation and then go on challenging the Turks. They know very little, and they have a weak cause once they are willing to discuss.
You write:
Really? A whole nation pays for the freedom fighting of a few? How can any civilized Turk buy this?
Comment:
Look into cases of ethnic cleansing and find the answer. The very presence of people of certain groups have been seen as a threat in given situations. So this is the uncanny reality and the tragedy – and the basis of the indescribable crimes.
you write:
Why does an educated Norwegian spend one second trying to explain to the victims why they were barbarically targeted instead of trying to explain to Turks the truth of their history.
Comment:
Boyajian
You know very well that I also discuss with Turks, as much as I can, and I am continually on the lookout for fora. But are you sure that Armenians do not need comments from those who disagree?
you write:
You are trying to playing both sides of the fence Ragnar.
Comment:
This depends on how yoiu define the fence and where it goes. It is a preposterous idea that you – if you were invited to discuss with two competing parties – that they should stop you from criticizing both sides. Doesnt this idea run counter to everything we know about conflicts? (in our case the theme is partly a question of historical truth, partly a conflict that needs to be solved)
Boyane
I have alredy transferred the bulk of my activities to the Turkish papers, but I clsaim the right to answer questions. Dont adress me, and I will only comment from time to time. If you adress me, please take the responsibility of my answering….is this so difficult to understand, Gayane?
Ragnar, your recent response to me is quite disappointing. You and I don’t seem to understand each other or to operate under the same rules of logic. Do you know what skewed means? Just because you cite articles doesn’t mean you are not skewed. I am suggesting that you rely too heavily on denialist writings. Just my opinion. You are free to write what you want and I am free to consider you a legitimate, open minded scholar, or not.
I say you are playing both sides of the fence because you appear to try to appease both sides by agreeing with certain pet issues of each side and rejecting others. You agree there were ‘genocidal consequences’ but you are not sure the Ittihadist central cadre intended them. You agree Armenians have a just cause, but you think Armenians need to show more compassion for Turkish losses during WWI, even though the vast majority of Turkish loss had nothing to do with Armenians and everything to do with the CUP nation building aspirations. (in other words, Armenians not only had to pay with 1.5 million lives and their historic homeland for these CUP national aspirations, we now have to pay the additional price of putting aside our right to justice for Turkey’s need to avoid facing the truth of its ill-conceived, ultra-nationalist and racist policies). You say that what happened to Armenians was a tragedy, but Armenians need to accept that they unleashed Turkish vengeance upon themselves with their own national aspirations. You don’t seem to see the barbaric absurdity of making an entire ethnic group pay for the freedom fighting of a few, because this is the way ethnic cleansing has always been done! Of course, how silly of me to suggest that this is unjust!
Unlike some, I am not asking you to go away. I am not asking you to stop communicating. I value the dialogue from both sides of the fence. But I don’t understand, never have, what you are doing here? I don’t think, even after all this time, that I understand what you stand for. Why do you think this is?
If you are not a turkophile, than you are someone who needs to get to know Armenians better so that your contributions reflect a deeper understanding of both sides of this issue. As an Armenian, I don’t get the impression from you that you understand the dynamics of a genocide surviving, dispersed community seeking recognition, restitution and reconciliation. I know you think you do, but in my opinion your words don’t portray this.
No intillectual dialogue is possible with Turks. 100 % of Genocide scholars who are not paid by the Turkish government agree that the Armenian Genocide occured. Those who disagree have been paid by the Turkish government to disagree.
Robert,
Please stop insulting my Armenianess or my intelligence. When you say that we (Armenians) cannot think for ourselves, you are insulting all Armenians. You forget that our oppinions have been formed by the factual witnessing of our grandparents. And, by your statements, you are calling our grandparents liars or frauds.
In order to have a dialogue on this forum, you have to first recognize that your Turkish government and grandparents were murderers, thieves and rapists.
Ragnar.. i am sorry did you say something? I did not think so… have a good day sir..
Boyajian, well said…
KS.. Robert has no ounce of intelligence in him when it comes to his history and/or the Armenian History.. he is spitting the venum that his govt injected in him for many years…and he is a very very frustrated man…if he had a chance, he would probably hurt an Armenian if one was to stand in front of him.. he is that angry…but yet the poisonous writer Kirlikovali had the nerves to say that about the Armenians and overlooking such people as Robert…. what a bastard…
Boyajian
you write:
Ragnar, your recent response to me is quite disappointing. You and I don’t seem to understand each other or to operate under the same rules of logic. Do you know what skewed means? Just because you cite articles doesn’t mean you are not skewed. I am suggesting that you rely too heavily on denialist writings. Just my opinion.
Comment:
Does skewed man the same as biased? It would have been better if you had said that I rely too much on denialist writings. but again this comment of yours I cannot use for anything if you do not concretizise it. You – well, not particularly you – but several others here – are masters in turning out evaluative statements in the hundreds, but seldom taking time to concretizise it, stop and try to do actual dialogue (using words like “do I get you right if you hold that….?” – “Don’t you see a problem in both holding A and B?” – “I admit that you have a point, but….”)- So I will think about what you say, but you must provide some examples if your words are to have have any meaning for me.
you write:
You are free to write what you want and I am free to consider you a legitimate, open minded scholar, or not. I say you are playing both sides of the fence because you appear to try to appease both sides by agreeing with certain pet issues of each side and rejecting others.
Comment:No, I see a complex picture in which both sides have valid points, even if the Turkish side has much less of it.(Read Libaridian’s article again) This has nothing to do with appeasement.
You write:You agree there were ‘genocidal consequences’ but you are not sure the Ittihadist central cadre intended them. You agree Armenians have a just cause, but you think Armenians need to show more compassion for Turkish losses during WWI, even though the vast majority of Turkish loss had nothing to do with Armenians and everything to do with the CUP nation building aspirations.
Comment: no, no compassion, but the recognition of an important part of the context. Unless yiou do this you lose your dialogue partner.
You write:
(in other words, Armenians not only had to pay with 1.5 million lives and their historic homeland for these CUP national aspirations, we now have to pay the additional price of putting aside our right to justice for Turkey’s need to avoid facing the truth of its ill-conceived, ultra-nationalist and racist policies).
Comment: If you really want dialogue, you have to take the position of the Other as a standard procedure. Sorry.
You write:
You say that what happened to Armenians was a tragedy, but Armenians need to accept that they unleashed Turkish vengeance upon themselves with their own national aspirations. You don’t seem to see the barbaric absurdity of making an entire ethnic group pay for the freedom fighting of a few, because this is the way ethnic cleansing has always been done! Of course, how silly of me to suggest that this is unjust!
Comment:
But Boyajian! we all know that this is barbarian and unjust. I feel you are induced by your outrage to demand more and more confirmations that it was bad, unjust, bad, unjust …ad infinitum.
You write:
Unlike some, I am not asking you to go away. I am not asking you to stop communicating. I value the dialogue from both sides of the fence. But I don’t understand, never have, what you are doing here? I don’t think, even after all this time, that I understand what you stand for. Why do you think this is?
If you are not a turkophile, than you are someone who needs to get to know Armenians better so that your contributions reflect a deeper understanding of both sides of this issue. As an Armenian, I don’t get the impression from you that you understand the dynamics of a genocide surviving, dispersed community seeking recognition, restitution and reconciliation. I know you think you do, but in my opinion your words don’t portray this.
comment:
I will try to explain. I believe that when the dialogue between Armenians and Turks increases in depth and broadness you will increasingly find yourself – or OUGHT TO FIND – in a discussion about what actually happened, what were the mechanisms, the contexts, the alternatives open to the actors, and hence have a basis for moral evaluation. Then ordinary method in history writing will press itself upon the participants, unless they will go on as most of you – excuse me for saying so, even the brilliant Karekin – do. Historical method deals with explanation. In the case of divergent interpretations one has to relate explicitly to different hypotheses. These must be fairly explicitly stated. In my presentation on February 1 in Oslo I outlined such hypotheses. The hypothesis of genocidal intent is fairly known,though it is mostly presented as truth. It is even considered immoral to present it as a hypothesis. I outlined a hypothesis implying that there was no genocidal intent in the leading cadres, properly speaking. I enumerated a number of mechanisms that might create the result without genocidal intent. The Turks who had turned up were jubilant because they believed that this was what was my opinion. They could not relate to the research situation at all in which one formulates hypotheses and tries them out against the known facts. If there had been any mainstream Armenians there they would have been angry because they would also have thought that this was my opinion. But to my mind unless both parties are willing to accept the normal context of analysis as the main framework of dialogue, you will have no solution in the form of agreeing on a common history. – Now this is also tied to the psychological and social aspects of the dialogue. Each party will have to admit partial defeat as ethem machupian says it. Admitting poartial defeat can be done by gestures like saying “We are all humans”, or conceding that there are ill feelings, and so on. Or by showing empathy to Armenians in view of their much greater catastrophy, by understanding their pain better, or being reconciled without agreeing on anything – which I, given the state of these debates in AW – believe is the most likely outcome in the end. But a common understanding of what actually happened cannot be reached by these methods. Karekin says that he is tired of repeating the facts of the genocide, but the question of these facts is the core of the question. I work in conflict solution and dialogue oriented change work, and in this case the conflict is tied to divergent interpretations of history. So I try to tell both parties that their analysis might be better, that they do not relate fully to the arguments of the Other. My presentation in Salt Lake city (“Polarization of discourses and quality of dialogue”) in april was about this. To relate honestly to the views of the other, not the emotions, is a prerequisite for collaborating for finding solutions, so that one party, or probably both, will admit that they were mistaken in some matters. Unless you create a context for dialogue in the sense of Jurgen Habermas, in which the better argument, not the loudest or most eloquent voice, wins, you will never succeed in convincing the Turks. So I tell you that you should put more emphasis on this. This is my message number one. The chorus of manooshags and mshecis with their anti-turkishness and the repetitious self-congratulary style of many participants (“Yes, you are right, we are right..”) is a part of the problem. They just reinforce the policies of hostility and hurt feelings and repeat slogans. In order to create a dialogue in which it is possible to analyse something together you have to leave this, start agreeing on common rules for analysis and follow them in practice. My second message is that Turks have a grave problem in human rights, and a problem of not being able to decentralize from ones own position, see ones own position from the outside, from the perspective of the Other, lays at the core of this human rights problem. They have been fed dogmatism, and function dogmatically. So I want to give my modest input to this betterment of human rights in turkey. Third, I want to support the Armenian cause because anybody who goes into the matter must do this. – Now it is very interesting that you are confused by my words here. I must return the question to you: what role do outsiders have in confliucts? What are your ideas of the processes in a dialogue? One obvious answer is to try to bring the combatants closer. But if the combatants disagree on a piece of history, but in actual practice define the conflict as one not demanding ordinary analysis, then you set the stage for an endless process in which both parties look for intentions, emotions ,empathy God knows what, but never understand that they must set up a common frameswork for analysis and work according to it. They wear themselves out in hope and recriminations because both parties are prisoners of their own hurt feelings and anger, and prefer to indulge in them. And then it becomes impossible for you to appreciate a voice that says that given that you disagree on what happened you must control your emotions and sit down to do the nitty-gritty of historical research together. As I have said if you actually do this it is beyond question that it is mainly the Turkish partner that will have to revise his views. You have very little little to loose once Turks are drawn into a dialogue. When I say this it is perceived as pedantry or being too pro-Turkish or too pro-Armenian (which my Turkish friends say), or simply too cold and unemphatic in an environment that indulges in hurt feelings (victim psychology, as Karekin rightly says). So I am here to say the obvious – IF YOU IN EARNEST WANT TO CONVINCE ANYBODY. But as usual I will end with a question, because this is the proper form of an endeavour like mine. Are you sure that you do not have a skewed view of dialogues between adversaries, underestimating the need to try to establish a common frame of reference as to dialogue rules, methodical prionciples in analysis, procedures of evaluating the extent to which participants adhere to accepted rules in the dialogue? Are you sure you should not put more effort into this, even if it is difficult?
The reality is probably somewhat different from what we read here in this forum, which allows people to vent their anger and frustration in a public manner. However, we should note that there are many Armenians who engage with Turks and Turkey on a regular, if not daily basis. Tour groups visit, individuals visit, both from Armenia and the diaspora. Those who visit Turkey, have and are willing to overcome the past with the promise of a more cooperative future because they realize they cannot change the past. Unfortunately, on both sides, nationalists have taken the reigns of the discourse and channeled it in their preferred directions which force people into narrow lanes of thought. While I understand the sadness that comes with such incredible loss and while it is preferable to live on one’s own soil, I wonder sometimes if Armenians are actually angry that they were forced to live in Paris, London, LA or NY? Are they angry that they don’t live in Erzerum or Bitlis anymore? How many of us have been to our ancestral villages to see what was left behind? Of course, it’s not just land, mud brick houses and vineyards, it’s the people we will never know except for the faded antique photos of people in charsharfs, fezzes and shalvars. Yes, Armenians lost big and paid a heavy price at the hands of the CUP madmen, but then, so did Turkey, because 25% of it’s native population was gone and as a result, almost a century of poverty set in. Perhaps, if the tone of this conversation can be softened a bit, a sincere apology from the Turkish may be forthcoming, as it’s long overdue. But, just as with wine, no apology can be served before its time. I do believe that when the time is right, it will be made officially and then everyone can move forward to the next step in this long, painful journey. At the very least, this is what must happen, if victim and victimizer are to move past the status quo. It would have helped tremendously if, along with restoring and opening Akhtamar, a national apology was made to the Armenian people along with returning the property to the auspices of the Armenian church.
ragnar, or I should rather put “chorus of ragnars” – You are a dishonorable man, I came to believe. I hope the word “dishonorable” will be allowed by the moderators in response to your derogatory “chorus of mshecis with their anti-turkishness” that they in turn allowed. When we engaged in the second most commented discussion here: “What Davutoglu Fails to Understand,” you never stopped thanking me for being patient, polite, knowledgeable, as well as for sharing ideas and references, which appeared to be your authentic motive for surfacing on these pages. When you needed ideas and references, msheci was as such. When you needed more but wouldn’t get them because most commentators came to believe that you simply stir up tensions between the two sides for your own benefit, you chose to derogate me first by misinterpreting a phrase dug up in just one comment and now by “chorus of mshecis with their anti-turkishness.” Re-read my comments in “What Davutoglu Fails to Understand,” if you will. Weren’t they predominantly oriented at discussing factual material and references to some scholarly accounts, and not at unfounded, unsubstantiated anti-turkishness? From 512 comments you only picked this clause: “mentality [of Ottomans] inherited in their genes [from Seljuks],” disregarding dozens of others that gave you reference- and evidence-based ideas in earnest. I denounced your outrageous misinterpretation of that singular clause, even posted a comment in “Today’s Zaman” to which you generally concurred afterwards. Yet, you again accuse me of being “anti-turkish” based not on the bulk of my comments but on a solitary misinterpreted phrase. You are a dishonorable man, and I pray God that He keeps “humanists” like you away from our just Cause. Now, go eat your “Turkish Delights” and be happy…
msheci,
Turkish culture is devoid of any renaissance other than the art of slavery and subjugation.
Ragnar writes: “But Boyajian! we all know that this is barbarian and unjust. I feel you are induced by your outrage to demand more and more confirmations that it was bad, unjust, bad, unjust …ad infinitum.”
Armenians may appear to demand more and more confirmations “that it is bad, unjust,” but we need only one; and that is the confirmation from the perpetrator that they recognize their crime. This is the validation that most abuse victims long for, strive for. In the absence of it, they often appear obsessed to the uninformed observer who doesn’t have the sensitivity/sophistication to realize that victims are driven toward the ‘healing’ that only a sincere apology can provide. That is why you are the target of indignation from many of us; because what you do in the effort to ‘help’ actually delays the apology and validation that Armenians need from Turkey.
You come across cold and detached about the morality of the crime against the Armenians, because you adhere to the rule that one must try to embrace (fully accept?) the other’s viewpoint in the process of mediating the differences or to draw out the sides. However, you fail to understand that when you detach from the moral outrage, it is difficult for Armenians to feel that you get the picture from their point of view. Think about this.
Ragnar, do you not realize that you play by a specific set of rules of dialogue, which you never delineated, nor did we agree to? So you come across as a bit of a know-it-all dialogue robot who presumes that he must let others know when they are breaking rules that they were never privy to.
As for it being a complex issue, you can say this if you mean there were many factors at play during the time the genocide took place. No one denies that complex factors existed then and now. Some may feel that it is academically interesting (and lucrative) to research and write ad infinitum about all these factors, but they obscure the most important thing. Justice.
When your goal is justice and you look at it from that point of view, the issue is not complex. You simply ask the question, “Is it true that Ottoman/CUP policy led to the death of 1.5 million Ottoman Armenian citizens and their elimination from a vast majority of their historic homeland?” and the answer is clear. Yes! “Do Armenians (or any people so injured) deserve to be compensated for their loss?” Yes, if rule of law exists! “Does the modern Turkish state, as the successors of the Ottoman Empire, have a responsibility to prosecute this crime and restitute the victims?” Yes! “Has the Turkish state engaged in efforts to deny the truth and deny justice to the victims?” Yes! “Does indulging the excuse making of the perpetrators serve a just society?” No!
This is not Turk-bashing or anti-Turkish propaganda. It is simply true.
Karekin – How can we propagate against tour groups visits, individuals’ visits, both from Armenia and the Diaspora to Turkey? After all, these are tour groups and individuals’ visits to our own lands. Who is not willing to overcome the past with the promise of a more cooperative future? We seem to disagree on the premise of how a more cooperative future can be achieved. You maintain that many realize they cannot change the past. You don’t really think that commentators on these pages don’t realize this, do you? I reiterated this several times, but I’d repeat it once more. Yes, Karekin, the past CANNOT be changed, but the past CAN be acknowledged, admitted, and apologized for. “To acknowledge”, “to admit”, and “to repent” are not past perfect tense verbs, they are present tense verbs. Therefore, it’s not about changing the past, it’s about admitting it in the present time.
It is wrong to suggest that “nationalists have taken the reigns of the discourse and channeled it in their preferred directions which force people into narrow lanes of thought.” Sorry, Sir, I have my own immediate family members who witnessed and documented Turkish atrocities, my own post-doctoral level of education, my own ability to read primary sources and secondary literature, and thus my own judgment of what had happened and how the issue should be resolved. In other words, I need no nationalist to “force me into narrow lanes of thought” to understand who did what and how it should be overcome.
Living in Paris, London, LA or NY wasn’t our choice, Karekin. My ancestors lived on lands they inhabited for millennia and were forced to flee. Had they continued to live there, I’m sure given the Armenian wit and industriousness they’d create a better homeland than the mud brick houses and vineyards they had in the backward Ottoman empire. I didn’t visit my ancestral village to see what was left behind because in my declining age I fear to have a heart attack if I see a pile of stones scattered on the ground—all that’s left from the Cathedral of the Holy Mother of God in Arapgir where my ancestors were from. Besides, I’m unenthusiastic to visit knowing that genocide perpetrators and our heritage desecrators didn’t repent.
I’m outraged by your words: “Yes, Armenians lost big and paid a heavy price at the hands of the CUP madmen, but then, so did Turkey, because 25% of its native population was gone and as a result, almost a century of poverty set in.” Karekin, what do you mean by “so did Turkey”? Armenians lost big at the hands of the CUP representing the official government of Ottoman Turkey. At whose hands was 25% of Turkey’s native population gone??
Vay Astvats jan.. qicha mnum indz krakem….. from reading Ragnar’s and Karekin’s outrageous comments..
Sometimes i think these two are related to each other…
Are you guys (Ragnar and Karekin) not tired of writing the same thing in different ways…
Msheci jan.. Ragnars of the world believe to know it all but in reality all they know is nothing.. we keep reading about how he gives a speech here or a presentation in Utah, Oslo or God knows where but yet why does he find the need to bring these up? because he needs to sound important.. another thing I noticed is that according to his resume, Turkish is one of the languages he speaks, writes and reads well but yet he said that he hardly reads Turkish..i say BS.. he keeps spewing lies and gets caught but he continues to speak up like padosh eres.. ira eshna qshum.. just like Karekin.. Ragnar does not realize that it is not us that are Anti-Turks.. it is him who is blind to see the real matter behind our time, effort and nerves wasted on him and on Karekin..
Boyajian and Karo well said.. apreq…
Gayane
Yes, Turkey lost big as a result of the genocide, because virtually all the people who did the hard work to feed the empire, clothe the empire, build the empire, teach the empire, make things used by people living in the empire, and maintain the empire were gone. All those services were provided by the native Arrmenians, because those who were seen as Turks, were largely involved in government service or the military. We all know that the settled, native minorities did all the work on behalf of the rulers. This is why the genocide was such a bad policy, not just for Armenians who lost lives and property, but also for Turks, who didn’t know how to make soap, an oil lamp, bulghur, medicine or even guns. As a result, their country limped along for a very long time because it was mortally wounded by its own leaders. Those same leaders then blamed the Armenians for everything bad that happened in Turkey. But, that was their evil game. At the time, they even blamed Armenians for fighting back in self defense, and Turkish nationalists connected to the original CUP crowd, still do. So, as I’ve said a thousand times here, a sincere apology from the govt of Turkey to the Armenian people would be a great start, but is only part of the solution and a first step. If Turkey truly wants to patch up the past, they do need to do more than preserve Akhtamar, but I trust they will, if we can accept each gesture with grace instead of complaints. And yes, we need to help them move in the right direction, as small as each step might be, because that will lead to the next positive step. No one can get everything they want, 1000%, right away…especially something as big as this. It will take time to repair such a deep level of hurt, but it can happen, if you’re open to it. Armenians need to want the change as much as Turkey does, if anything good is going to happen at all.
Msheci, it was wrong of Ragnar to represent you as a racist or to smear you yet again by disrespectfully refering to the “chorus of Mshecis. I agree with you that this is dishonorable. He needs to apologize to you and to examine his own bias.
Ragnar,
You betray a tenacious ignorance on the subject of the Armenian Genocide. I also infer a robust desire to place yourself in the midst of a non-existent dialogue, but only to enrich yourself.
First, you have at best a partial, lay understanding of the historical record. You have read perhaps a few dozen works, but have conducted no research. Unlike even Lewy, you are not equipped to review the works of others from a basis in political science or history. So, let’s admit it – you come to this arena as a pure amateur, and it is an amateur you remain. When you posted on the listserve, you were widely criticized for the evasiveness of your comments. So, you try to make camp here. We weren’t born yesterday either.
Instead of trying to learn new fields, you instead seek to make Delphic comments about the Armenian Turkish dialogue. You don’t identify what that is. Online comments hardly qualify. Yet you profess not even to know Turkish Forum, a premier Turk Nazi site. One concludes your research is a bit lax.
More disturbingly, you refer to the so called debate on the Genocide as a matter between Turks and Armenians. I will grant you that the denialist viewpoint is exclusively Turkish or Turk supported. But the crimes were crimes against humanity, in this case the Christian minorities of the OE. This was recognized as early as 1915. Those affirming it are not just the descendants of the victims, but all responsible historians. Even Lewy affirms Deringil’s famous conclusion that the Armenians suffered “colossal crimes” at the hands of the state, and that no historian with a conscience could subscribe to the civil war thesis.
You allude to a provocation defense or context argument, which FM came up with earlier this year. This is a slight variation of the discredited civil war thesis. It posits that if the CUP and its willing executioners murdered women and children, they had a good reason. You overlook that legally there is no provocation defense to simple premeditated murder on the individual level, or on the level of genocide. All genocidal regimes claim that there was provocation – this is exactly what we hear from Beshir in Sudan re Darfur.
You also participate in “scholarship” at the UU,which you deceptively call Salt Lake City. We all know that the TCA endowed almost 1M for what amounts to a denialist agenda there. Have you read Yavuz’ comments online about how rapprochemont between Turkey and Armenia is not in Turkey’s interests? He all but calls for invasion.
Finally, we can all agree you are no international lawyer. If you want to find out what the law holds, read Geoff Robinson’s report from last year. I know, I know, that’s a lot harder than posting unreadable stuff here But you might learn something.
OK, folks: Let me take the heat off the situation here and turn back to the issue of attendance at Akhtamar. I withheld my comments for some time hoping to get more responses to the summary of media excerpts related to the Cause. Thank you, Gayane and Boyajian, for responding. Others are so far silent: they either stick to their guns (whether attendance or non-attendance was the right move) or those who thought attendance was the right response admited that media coverage didn’t properly reflect on the attendance of a smaller group of Armenians. In order to avoid repetition, I’d like to say that I generally agree with Boyajian’s assessment above. Here are some additions of my own (and, Boyajian, neither am I an expert on these matters and my thoughts are my opinion, as well). Overall, the attendance of several hundreds of mostly Constantinople Armenians failed to advance the Armenian cause. Just like in the past, the talk about the genocide was portrayed as a claim made by Armenians and disputed by the Turks. When bringing some new insight into the story, news editors would utilize their “old good” technique of beating about the bush by means of evasive phrases like these: “but critics question goodwill gesture by Turkey,” etc. In other words, there was nothing new in terms of substance, only superficial acknowledgment that one-day service in the church-turned-museum was the first allowed in 95 years and that the indigenous Armenians had been driven out as a result of killings during the WWI. Even the Treaty of Sevres mentioned in the BBC coverage, while commendable, was not new. I’ve seen a couple of references to the Treaty earlier in the world news. It is good, as Boyajian mentioned, that Turkey was not portrayed as the well-intentioned peacemaker whom Armenians rebuffed by their decision not to attend in larger numbers. But disappointing points overshadow this. I’d agree with Boyajian that perhaps the bigger scale of the event and the larger number of attendants would have generated wider international resonance. Obviously, more Armenians could have been interviewed and quoted for the articles, if more attended. However, I don’t believe that headlines and evasive phrasing would be different and that interviews that Armenians would have given be treated unselectively. If noone can say for sure whether the coverage would have been different if more Armenians had attended and if noone can say for sure if it was different because so few attended, then, I guess, the question becomes “Would the coverage be different if large groups of Armenians attended houses of worships and other edifices and ruins on a regular basis and not for a one-day service designated by the Turks?” I think this is a very important question that needs to be addressed, because we may run the risk of habituating ourselves to the idea that our churches and monasteries are museums in Turkey and that we can only pray in them on a designated day. I sense Turks would be glad if we picked the crumb.
All I can say is this. Armenian repirations are going to cost the Turks 2 Trillion dollars. This is a lot of money to be concentrated to only a few million people. The U.S. and its allies don’t want to see this happen.
That would overrun other groups that have an elite status.
Ragnar, you wrote:”katia
I cannot relate to your post since you do not adress things I actually said. Did I ever use the word “exaggerated”?
And I quoted you from your Daily Zaman comment: “But We should debate with them if we hold that their views are exaggerated or unfounded. It is not unusual to meet a crass anti-turkishness among Armenians who participate in the debates”.
And then… silence from you…
For once you were speechless… I think I gave you plenty time to reflect about your comment and retrieve your mistake… but you did not reply to me… Shame on you to take it upon yourself to decide if our reaction to the massacre of our ancestors was “exaggerated”, when you have no authority in the subject. Who gives you the right to judge the reaction of the victim party when you have not studied the crime in all its gruesome details. I would not mind your arrogance if you show a minimum of authority?knowledge in the facts/details from the “Armenian” side. If anything you asked Msheci, Boyajian, Ani and the rest of us during our debate of “What Davutoglu fails to understand…” to furnish you with resources/articles and papers about the subject.
Mjm, I have been silent, but nevertheless reading all of your excerpts from the different media/news outlets about the Akhtamar event. Thank you for your elaborate reporting. I see great value in studying the media’s response/coverage to prepare for next year’s Akhtamar event… But here’s my concern:
1. It all comes down to resources and who’s more resilient. I share your concern that Turkey will work on training us to get excited about the crumbs it is throwing our way, and will use gullible (or threatened) Armenians to help promote itself as “religiously tolerant”.
2. All of our “studying” and “analyzing” on this site will be in vain if our leaders are not listening.
3. At the beginning of this conversation, I insisted to Mr. Sassunian that right before the “Akhtamar” event was the perfect time to raid all news/media outlets with background stories about Akhtamar with the goal to educate the public about the Genocide and all the Armenian churches that were either destroyed or converted to mosques etc. If we had played our hand right, our documentaries would have overshadowed if not crashed all prospect of Turkey getting Kudos for the mass. Now after the fact, Mr. Sassunian wrote an article that touched upon the “opportunity lost” that I was warning about in the case we did not utilize this limelight to shed light on the true story of Akhtamar with all its implications… again, my hope is that our leadership will develop faster reflexes and maximize exposure at the rare opportune times that present themselves. Hopefully, there will be documentaries or coverage similar to the latest 60 minutes segment, that will be prepared prior to next year’s “Akhtamar show”.
4. Overall however, I don’t think the coverage was a victory for Turkey. I think the boycott did work… at least with those media outlets that are not bought off by Turkey.
katia K
sorry for not answering you. I only noted your post now. Yes, I wrote:
“But We should debate with them if we hold that their views are exaggerated or unfounded.”
Then you commented:
Shame on you to take it upon yourself to decide if our reaction to the massacre of our ancestors was “exaggerated”, when you have no authority in the subject.
my comment:
this is another example fo why I find it difficult to argue with you and Gayane, whom I believe I actually was thinking most of in my remark. I speak about exaggerated views, but you twist it as if I spoke about exagerated reactions, that is you construed me as holding that certain of the Armenian’s reactions to the massacres and mass deaths of your ancestors were exaggerated. But I never said this, I spoke about views. To say to people what their emotional reactions to atrocities committed against people they feel close to is quite something else
Ragnar,
Why do you avoid responding to the substance of my now several emails. Are you able to, or shall we ascribe it to something else?
Nice try Ragnar… Nice try!
You are the only one misconstruing your own comments, as you go along, to suit your purposes.
Playing a game of words discredits you even further. Views are a part of a reaction to something. All of our comments here are cognitive “reactions” and “views”. You know that you used the word “exaggerated” several times in our other debate to describe our Genocide stories.
It is amazing how you never use this word while describing the lengths the Turkish government goes to cover up the Genocide, from converting churches to mosques, by persecuting journalists and human rights activists who speak about the truth, by having kids watch an anti Armenian propaganda video, by coming up with a law that makes challenging the state an insult to Turkishness punishable by law… No, all of these infringements on history and civic/human rights are not overboard for you, but when a commentator here wonders how a modern country does not have the civility to apologize for the barbarian way its ancestors massacred women, men and children…that shocks you… You never answered my question:”if they are not condeming, does that mean they are approving?”. (Which goes back to questioning a possible cultural background that not only allowed this kind of a crime, but also allows modern day Turkey to claim that this type of “things” happen in war). Well no, the ruled of war do not say that it is legal to deport a whole minority population, starve it to death, make it march 500 miles on foot, plunder, rape and masscre it. It is not civilized, it is murder, it is Genocide. We cannot move past this atrocious crime until the culprit apologizes and makes reparations for it. Very simple. Anything short of an apologyagrestitution is Evasion of law and justice, which has been happening now for 95 years. Exaggerated… If anything we have been plenty patient.
Just like Boyajian said, you are playing both sides, or simply playing a game which is ruining your credibility here.
Ragnar..
You have a tendency of jumping from one person to another on these forums.. before it was Msheci, then Manooshag, then Katia and myself..
Remember when I wrote: stop digging your own hole because it is getting deeper and deeper ?? and once you fall in it, it will be hard to get out? well you are in that hole sir….
In addition, you are not capable of understanding that how i see you is exactly how i see you..a denialist… no matter how much bits and pieces of “i am on your side” crap you throw at me.. to me there is no IF, BUT or MAYBE… Genocide happened and that is the end of it.. to you that is not the case.. but as I said in the past Ragnar.. there IS NO MIDDLE GROUND about this matter. you can’t be playing both sides… and you are doing exactly that.. and taking upon yourself to share YOUR OWN VIEWS on the Turkish forums by using bits and pieces of the data we provided you.. you preach that our views are exagerated but then you turn around and do even worst..
I am feeling dizzy just by communicating with you and from reading your comments…..we are damn if we share information with you and we are damn if we dont.. LORD….
G
I agree with Katia..
Boycott at some degree had its affect on Turkey and on the world… it is because our non attendance that pushed media to include it in their news… and include something even though very vague and short about why Armenians did not attend…
As Katia said and as I wished to see as well was to get our leaders to use the media outlets for our advantage to share the story and history about our church all over the world.. we should have been more outspoken about this before the event.. however, even the Armenian channels did nto have much about this event.. i saw few discussions but that was it.. i believe TV, Radio and newspapers need to be utilized to its max because without these outlets, we can’t get the message across to a larger audience….
Personally i dont’ think we helped our Cause at a larger scale but we damaged Turkey’s goal to some extent…
Gayane
jda
about my views on the Armenian genocide, see the discussion following the article on Davutoglu: “what Davutoglu fails to understand”. If there is some lack of clarity, please refer to my actual words and pose your questions. Otherwise we will only go in circles, to my mind.
katia
I cannot answer you about the point on exaggeration unless you cite what I say in this post and then ask. I cannot answer for wordings or opinions I dont have.
Gayane
I am sorry I cannot answer you better. If you remember it, I said that what happened to the Ottoman Armenians clearly was genocide (“yes, it happened!”), but that I will only use the label with certain clarifications. Maybe you remember our discussion of the question of genocidal intent in the juridical sense – in the upper echelons of the ittihadists. So I agree it was genocide, but we disagree on the documentation of genocidal intent – in the juridical sense – among the top echelons of the ittihadists. And mind you I dont say that they didnt have it. I say that it is not satisfactorily proved – in the juridical sense. And in this you and I disagree. Boyajian says that I believe it was genocidal because of the genocidal concequences, but this is not the whole story. As ICTJ said in 2002, the most likely conclusion is than many of the actors had genocidal intent, but ICTJ does not specify who…but I agree with ICTJ….. for me this also has to do with defining the meaning of words when we use them. Unless defined, words become slogans, open to the random interpretations the listeners or readers have. I try to avoid this.
What we agree on is that the ittihadists had a clear responsibility for the Armenian mortality and also for the massacres since they did very little to stop the perpetrators, something Talat also more or less concedes in his memoirs. To me this is the core of the moral issue.
So Turkey should concede this and make repairs. The restoration of the Sourp Khatch is possibly a beginning of a more honest appreciation on the part of Turks. Let us hope for this.
Boyajian
no, I will not stop communication if people ask me questions. But I guess you by now know about my views. Apart from this I posted my first comment in Turkish to a ghastly article in the “Turkish forum” yesterday, and hope to go on here in Norway raising the issue. Apart from this I never used the word “racism” regarding msheci. But his words were very unfortunate….I cannot conclude otherwise…. but now he has explained that he intended to speak about cultural traits transmitted across the generations and that of course is something else.
katia
you write
You never answered my question:”if they are not condeming, does that mean they are approving?”.
comment
I take it you mean “if they are not condemning the genocide – or atrocities, or injustices – perpetrated against the Armenians, does that mean that they are approving?”.
answer:
not necessarily. They may simply have another version which they believe in. So they do not approve – properly speaking – of actions that they do not believe took place. But I believe there exist Turkish nationalists who concede that the ittihadists committted genocide and who also say that this was a right thing to do. It is hard to imagine such callousness, but unfortunately this is so.
Ragnar — Kindly explain. You stated that you “believe there exist Turkish nationalists who concede that the Ittihadists committed genocide and who also say that this was a right thing to do. It is hard to imagine such callousness, but unfortunately this is so.” Do you denounce them as a “chorus of nationalists with their anti-Armenianness” based on their explicit racist statements? If you do, in which Armenian or Turkish online publication, please? Please provide links. Thanks.
Why are you people having a dialogue with denialists? I know what my grandfather told me to be facts as true and no poisonous seeds of denialists are going to be allowed to grow in my mind. My grandfather was haunted with his memories for 90 plus years. He also told me of the amount of land our family had that were confiscated.
Why does the Muslim world complain about occupations when they occupied Spain for 700 years and are now occupying Western Armenia for about 600 years? The US, France, Russia and Turkey have been using the Armenian Genocide and repirations as a political footbal. The Turks, and others, use this forum to formulate their new denialist arguments.
Karo
well, I say I BELIEVE that these people exist. I have no direct documentation. For instance, in Baskin Oran’s presentation to Clark University (“Civil society in Turkey”), a photo is displayed of a group of Turkish nationalists in Kayseri, responding to the demonstrations following the murder of Hrant Dink (“We are all Armenians” etc). These people handed out “sweets for the soul of Hitler”. Taken as a comment to the murder of an Armenian, this indicates that those people supported the general idea of killing off Armenians. I believe the activities of these people were also portrayed in the Turkish papers, but you can find the presentation in Oran’s website. Anyhow, to my mind they are pretty far out. The usual traditional Turkish reaction will be to minimise Armenian losses and suffering.
Ragnar,
I did as you asked. I read your comments. They make no sense.
You say that the Armenian Genocide is not proven to your satisfaction through what you call “juridical” documents, or in the “juridical” sense. You also seem to imply that there must be proof that the highest levels of the CUP intended the elimination of all Armenians. Let’s unpack your pseudo-scholarly opinions, shall we? Emperor, its time to disrobe.
First, Lemkin would be perplexed by your assertions. As I am sure even you know, he drew upon what was known of the Armenians massacres, forced conversions, abductions, and killings by state actors as a foundation for the drafting of the Convention, his entire interest being drawn to the Tehlerian trial as a touchstone.
To paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen, you are no scholar on the Genocide issue. If you were, you would know that the state crime of Genocide does not require intent to kill all of the members of a racial or religious group.
It is sufficient to demonstrate the intentional delivery of all or a portion of the group into conditions from which death is likely to occur to a substantial number. If you doubt it,read the bloody Convention. Read also the summary of the Convention as applied to the Armenan case by Geoff Robertson QC, in his famous report of last year. Neither must the decision be made by the top leader. A governor, an officer, anyone with state authority qualifies.
Geoff was the first presiding Magistrate over war crimes trials in Sierra Leone. If he thinks the historical record meets the legal – the ‘juridical’ requirements, what is your lay basis to deny it?
And, all of this ignores the admissions made by Talaat [you know who that is, right? – he’s got a big mauseleum in Turkey, his body was sent to Turkey by Hitler as a gift, and there are 12 boulevards in his Honor throughout that marvelous country].
The real hsitorian Niall Ferguson, in his work on WWI has no difficulty reaching swiftly the conclusion of Genocide based upon standard sources, such as the memoir of de Nogales.
The historical records shows, as Robertson and many,many others have recounted, that there are hundreds of German, Austrian, Missionary and US Ambassadorial and vice-counsel reports which all say the same essential things: the men were quickly shot, bludgeoned, beheaded near their homes, and the women, children and elderly were killed en route, Always by state actors or nearly so. The Anatolian and European Turkey – wide patterns imply a common design, right? Ask Donald Quataert.
Do you seriously contend that this evidence would not be admissible in a court, that it is not “juridical?”
What of the equally admissible admissions of Turkish Moslem military leaders, or the evidence at the trials – sounds kinda juridical to me, a lay person.
If you are searching for people to upbraid, try the Turkish nationalists and their state sanction, e.g. Namik Tan welcoming into his Embassy on 4/24/10 several dozen young people who danced in celebration of Genocide ifo the Embassy. One of the young men held a sign saying “Armenian women like Turkish guys.”
The Turkish state ratifies jokes about raping and killing Armenian women, and you ply filth here. At least one knows where the enemy stands.
Bravo jda!! Abris!
Throughout our Merry Go Round debate with Ragnar on “What Davudoglu fails to understand”, where he switched back and forth between being reasonable one second, and being outrageously illogical the next, I always said that at the very least our conversation produced a whole array of book titles, papers and sources about the Genocide. Your last post is again full of valuable scholarly resources that I am hoping will be picked up by the silent readers of this post, especially the ones who are not well informed about the facts.
I was thinking last night that some of the Genocide deniars probably think that we are making this up because it is so outrageously mind boggling, the details are so shockingly unacceptable to the human mind, the brutality of the idea of emptying a homeland of its indegenous people and making it your own is so callously uncivilized that it is more psychologically manageable to believe the lies than face a truth that is stranger than fiction. Taner Ackam touches on this in his book “From Empire to Republic”. His view is that the Turks who deny the Genocide do this because they cannot handle facing a truth that ravages the idea they hold about their ancestors and country. The pain and shame is so intense that they block this information in their minds and label it as a lie or blame the victims for what befell them, citing all sorts of political “complications”, as Ragnar puts it, that these regular citizens had nothing to do with.
We on the other hand, are a nation of traumatized people. We are living with the painful memories of our grandparents, with a deep outrage of a nation so rich with culture, art and discovery to be this brutally disrespected, and sent to oblivion with the most unjust and illegal conquests of all time. We want the culprit to admit to these outrages so that we can put a closure to the pain that we inherited in our genes, to have confirmation from Turkey that all these outrages were perpertrated, and to restore the dignity of our ancient people.
Being haunted by these painful memories and being told that they never happened, is as cruel as the barbaric acts themselves.
The sad thing is that the Turkish leadership do not recognize all the respect and possibilities their country will be open to once they come clean about the Genocide.
AMEN JDA and KATIA jan..
EXCELLENT…Excellent comments…
Gayane
jda
you obviously know a lot about this, and I am no expert, so maybe I am wrong. Do we really want to open this discussion? Isnt it enough to say that we disgree? Or rather I say that I have not yet seen any satisfactory proof of genocidal intent in the top echelons, but I dont deny that it may be proved. I will make a few comments, at least to dispel a misunderstanding. First, we obviously agree that it is not necessary for the application of the term “genocide” that the perpetrator should be a leader. The convention talks about “any of the following acts”, but the type of actor is not specified. I wrote yesterday: As ICTJ said in 2002, the most likely conclusion is thatmany of the actors had genocidal intent, but ICTJ does not specify who…but I agree with ICTJ…..
but then you write: You also seem to imply that there must be proof that the highest levels of the CUP intended the elimination of all Armenians……and then: It is sufficient to demonstrate the intentional delivery of all or a portion of the group into conditions from which death is likely to occur to a substantial number. If you doubt it,read the bloody Convention. Read also the summary of the Convention as applied to the Armenan case by Geoff Robertson QC, in his famous report of last year. Neither must the decision be made by the top leader. A governor, an officer, anyone with state authority qualifies.
comment:
but jda, I agree in all of this. Cant you see that we agree?
Let us start from this fact of agreement. I’d like you to concede that you misunderstood me. I never said that proving the genocidal intent of the top echelon is a prerequisite for applying the term “genocide”. I just said that I never saw any proof satisfying the criteria of proof for this assertion (“the ittihadist top echelons had genocidal intent”)as I understand them.
But again, why do you want to open this discussion with Ragnar Naess? What is your point? Honestly, I have my mind focussed on the Turkish papers.
Ragnar,
Well, if you say you BELIEVE that these people [supporting the general idea of killing off Armenians] exist, as displayed in Baskin Oran’s presentation to Clark University, I didn’t get from your response: have you or have you not ever denounced such explicitly racist, anti-Armenian outbursts as a “chorus of nationalists with their anti-Armenianness” anywhere in your voluminous publications and presentations? Thanks un advance for your precision.
karo
I dont use such expressions, so I have never said these words as far as I remember. I usually formulate myself in a different way.
Yes, sure, you’d hardly ever use expressions such as “chorus of Turkish nationalists with their anti-Armenianness” in your comments addressed to the explicitly racist Turks. Nonetheless, you can descend as low as to allow yourself to address rightfully angered Armenians with an expression “chorus of Armenians with their anti-Turkishness” on these pages. How “nice” of you…
Ragnar,
I see the Emperor slowly, if coyly disrobing.
We agree that you are no expert. That’s good. I trust you will disclose that salient bit of bedrock each time your comments otherwise hint that you are, by virtue of claiming to be an academic, a lecturer, a paper-presenter etc.
First, you still avoid stating outright that a Genocide of the Christian Ottoman subjects took place. All you purport to agree to is a legal framework.
Second, you state, as if with magisterial authority, that you are not yet convinced that the top echelons intended to destroy the Armenians. While you have the freedom of opinion, and can deny that gravity exists if you wish, you do not have freedom of facts. The assertion that there lacks sufficient evidence of genocidal intent by the CUP is disrespectful and ignorant.
First, we know that Genocidal intent is rarely documented. Hitler signed no such document. No less that Churchill thundered in May, 1915 that the CUP leaders would be hanged for crimes against humanity, because word of the state massacres reached even the far shores of Albion. When the mighty Empire says they will hang you for killing Christian civilians, you will not be likely to document your crimes.
Second, how can you deny that the leadership did not know what was going on in their country, subject to their commands? We know that Talaat kept a precise tally of the Armenians being deported. Do you think he did not know also that the conditions into which he was causing them to be delivered were also killing them in their hundreds of thousands?
Third, there are dozens of admissions in the record of the top echelon. Let’s start with Morgenthau’s alarmed reports to Washington, or the quotations of Jevdet Bey to de Nogales. Or even Vehib Pasa of the Third Army. Ataturk in 1926. How come they were persuaded of the CUP’s evil intent, but you aren’t?
The killings were done by state actors. The presumption must be that they acted on orders and with ratification for that reason. You even point out elsewhere that nobody was hanged for mistreating Armenians. They followed the same plans throughout Asian and European Turkey, other than in Constantinople and Smyrna, where Armenians were needed, and where Europeans were present.
I think your stance is more wretched, and more evil than even that of the Nazi Turks, who are raised in a Sari Gelin environment. You weren’t. Instead, you lord non existent credentials over both Turks and Armenians in some orientalist agenda.
You should apologize to the memory of 2M Armenian dead, 750,000 Assyrian dead, and 500,000 Pontic dead. When the TURKS killed these people and stole their culture, they knew that there would always be those around to help them defend, explain and obscure.
You fit the bill of that Turk agenda. Unlike a Turk, you have no excuse.
lda
I cannot discuss with you. Please cite me and argue. Otherwise You are welcome to go on talking to your audience. About the documentation of genocidal intent, read what Robertson writes about it. it does not presuppose any “Fuehrerbefehl”. Neither do your invectives impress me
This is crazy… we keep on saying we should not be carrying on a conversation with a Genocide denialist and we somehow get sucked into just that.
Yes jda… continue talking to your audience… your audience are civilized, reasonable, intelligent, informed, justice seeking people.
I wish for a change, someone with scholarly credentials can join our conversations, so that we have the opportunity to explore more, learn more and hopefully achieve more with these posts.
I wish we could carry a conversation with an informed, open minded Turk, who can open up about his side of the story, his feelings and how we can build bridges amongst our peoples. That would be a million times more preferable than this “debate going nowhere” that we continue to carry on with Ragnar, a self presumed know-it all who is still looking for a beautiful document of clear written order to massacre all Armenians by Talat! Is there one from Hitler about the Jews? There is a quotation from Hitler though that says to kill without any reservations after all “who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?”
Karo
to be rightfully angered is one thing, to be crassly anti-Turkish is something else. This of course does not apply to all Armenians in the discussion but unfortunately it applies to some, and other Armenians seldom correct them. But I would be lying if I am saying that I am not dismayed by the posts of some of the participants here.
Ragnar — My question was formulated in a very precise and easily digestive fashion: have you or have you not ever denounced explicitly racist, anti-Armenian outbursts as a “chorus of nationalists with their anti-Armenianness” anywhere in your voluminous publications and presentations, for instance when, as you brought up, you came across information in Baskin Oran’s presentation to Clark University about scumbags supporting the general idea of killing off Armenians. Have you or have you not denounced such explicit anti-Armenian racist outbursts? Yes or no? Check one.
Excuse me folks, but we’re just wasting time on a genocide denialist. We need to figure out what our next move will be when next year Turks will close the “museum” in Holy Cross or anywhere in the Armenian provinces, open it as a house of worship for two hours, and then close it again for uninformed public with no reference whatsoever what the museum actually represents. Where did this structure come from? Who built it? Who were the people in the vicinity of this “museum”? What happened to these people? We have a long and fierce fight with unrepentant Turks ahead of us. I’ve read here about one immediate event that awaits us in early October with the concert in NY “celebrating” the “re-opening” of the Holy Cross. What an impudence to celebrate something that in reality does not exist. Does Holy Cross exist as a re-opened church? Stop wasting energy on incurable cases, please…
Ragnar,
When your wretched Turk Nationalist-pleasing fallacies are exposed, you take shelter from the sunlight by claiming that I did not “cite” you or that I used invective. Neither is an answer to my points about the plentiful evidence of Genocidal intent at the highest level of the CUP.
Please try to answer the question, which is why do you not find these samples of evidence persuasive e.g. Morgenthau, Vehib Pasa, Ataturk, de Nogales quoting the Diyarbekir Governor’s orders. Niall Ferguson, a reputed historian, cites fewer sources than I in his WWI book on the issue.
The question has a separate identity from the questioner, whom you are free to disdain. Answer the question, or be exposed as a phony who can’t defend his Turk Nazi audience pleasing evasions. Oh, and I do differntiate between the Nazi variety, such as Can Aritman, or Kirlikovali, and the reasonable, honest varieties such as Deringil, Dundar, Ackarli, Aktar, Oran, Berktay, Ungor, Turkyilmaz [actually a Kurd], Gocek et al, along with 30k others who signed the petition, and those who are humane.
Karo
I believe I answered that one. The Turks in Kayseri in question I would call fashists, not nationalists. They are an apalling lot. But please – what do you intend by your question?
Explain! If I used the expression “chorus of Armenians with their anti-Turkishness” – I cannot find it – it is a remark on some of the Armenians in these discussions.
Katia
yes, why are you sucked into it? Sensible question. I simply try to answer questions, so I must be excused for prolonging the discussion which makes no sense at the moment. But then again you simply dont relate to what I say and just frame me into your prejudices. Why not make an attempt to read and relate to what I say?
I learned a lot from the debates here in AW. Sometimes I wondered why I was here or whether I had not gone astray. Some things I would have formulated diffewrently today, some things I said I regret. The main thing I learned is how deeply affected many Armenians are by the genocide. I have Armenian friends I communicate with, they appreciate my views and my approach. It is sad that you dont. And certainly you should not prolong any discussion with me if you dont want to.
Kiazer,
After reading your posts, it’s painfully clear that you live in a constant world of delusions. There’s really no point in even discussing anything with you.
Katia says: “There is a quotation from Hitler though that says to kill without any reservations after all “who today remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?” ”
Well, here is the funny part. There is actually no record of Hitler ever making such a statement, no such speech, no such document, no recording and no witnesses. But please do not let facts interfere with your myths.
Murat,
interested people like you will find easily the character of Amin Al-Husseini and contribution of his ” murderer personality” to Hitler and Nazism.. it was so easy why Hitler and his “Genocidal sadism” tied up with Islamic jihadist character such as Amin Al-Husseini..Hitler learnt a lot from his sympathizer super star, Amin Al-Hussieni…
the problem with this Turkish so called scholars, “do not want to hear the truth…they love to hear, covered-up lies, for the truth”
I wonder why the internet is blocked from ordinary Turkish citizens to read and learn about their own history!!
From the Armenian Genocide to the Hijacking of the Muslim World
Ragnar,
Thank you for answering my question from the third attempt. I intend to understand (because I can see I’m a bit behind the heated discussion that others had with you) as to what particular passage posted here would make you characterize Armenian commentators as a “chorus with anti-Turkishness” and what particular explicitly racist behavior or a proclamation on part of the Turks would make you characterize Turks as a “chorus with anti-Armenianness”. I can now see that the two instances are divergently different in character, form, scope, and possible ramifications. But thanks for answering the question.
P.S. One more question, if you don’t mind. Do your Armenian friends who, as you say, appreciate your views and your approach, know that you deny the genocidal intent in the actions of the higher echelons of the CUP? Thank you.
“Who after all speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” – Hitler, August 22, 1939, before marching on Poland.
Full speech by Hitler: “I have issued the command – and I’ll have anybody who utters but one word of criticism executed by a firing squad – that our war aim does not consist in reaching certain lines, but in the physical destruction of the enemy. Accordingly, I have placed my Death-Head formations in readiness – for the present only in the East – with orders to them to send to death mercilessly and without compassion, men, women, and children of Polish derivation and language. Only thus shall we gain the living space (Lebensraum) which we need. Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?”
Adolf Hitler, 1939-08-22, according to reports received by the Associated Press bureau chief in Berlin, Louis Lochner
This inscription is from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington D.C.
It is also in Lochner’s “What about Germany” (New York, Dodd, Mead & Co.,1942)
The Nurenberg Tribunal identifies it as Document L-3, or Exhibit USA 28.
Karo
thank you for your answer.
I do not deny genocidal intent in the upper echelons of the ittihadists. In one of my previous posts I tried to make this clear. I say it is to my mind insufficiently proved “in a juridical sense”. But of course genocidal intent may have been present and it may in principle be proved. I admit that the expression “in a juridical sense” is somewhat vague. If we can discuss in a civil way, I can repeat my analysis.
My main point, however, is something else. I hold that in focussing on a term with predominantly a juridical meaning, we may overlook the very obvious general moral aspect of the situation. The ittihadists deported Armenians in a situation where they must have known that the mortality would be great. They deported people with no affiliation to the Armenian rebels and revolutionaries. And to my mind, most importantly, the perpetrators of massacres, be they Kurdish tribes like the Reshvan and Baliban, or the Circassians in august 1916, or the many instances of the Ottoman military committing massacres, WERE NEVER TRIED AND PUNISHED, as Talaat himself more or less acknowledges. So the general focus should be on the obvious moral blame attaching to the acts of the ittihadists and their role in emptying the Armenian lands of Armenians. Turks and the Turkish government should acknowledge this, apologize and make repairs. But by putting the term genocide at center stage one invites a juridical lawyer-like discussion withe hairsplitting and wrangling over very technical aspects. Also it invites a totallty unnecessary comparison between the jewish fate in 1941-45 and the Armenian fate in 1915-16. The Armenian genocide stands on its own feet as a monumental atrocity towards a people. To infer intent from acts is further a complicated operation, but to point to moral shortcomings in a given situation is much easier and will probablty be much easier as a banner to have all peoples and governments to rally around in order to assist and pressure Turks to come to terms with the black spots in their past.
Regarding my Armenian friends they disagree with me. They believe that genocidal intent is sufficiently proved in the ittihadist leaders. But when they see what I do in practice in solidarity with the Armenian cause they thank me. One example is when I managed to have Turkish- Norwegian intellectuals and business men come and listen to Donald Bloxham’s lecture in 2007. This was the first time for all of them, I believe, that they actually were presented with the facts and common interpretation of 1915-16. From a specialist. Then they must think themselves. Because I believe in reflection and real dialogue as a force among humans, and not in terroristic rhetorics and propaganda.
I hope this answers your question.
I repeat, there was no such specific statement by Hitler, no record, no witnesses and no verification. Quoting it a million times does not make it a fact. That is my point.
Murat,
I understand you wish that it not be true. But it is verified. General Admiral Wilhelm Canaris, head of military intelligence for Germany, was a participant in that discussion. He documented Hitlers comments in his notes. The Book, The Origins of the Final Solution: The Evolution of Nazi Jewish Policy by Christofer R. Browning specifically cites the meeting as recorded by the head of German Military Intelligence.
click here for the link to the applicable pages of this text. To maintain your position you will now need proof that the Head of German Military Intelligence who took the minutes of the meeting falsified the real-time account of the meeting.
Murat,
You are entitled to freedom of speech, but not freedom of facts.
In addition to Lochner’s account, we also have the account of German author and journalist Richard Breitling, who interviewed Hitler in 1931, eight years before the 1939 quote was uttered. Breitling’s notes have been authenticated by two dozen contemporaries.
In these notes, Breitling recorded that Hitler said he intended to unleash resettlement and massacre on the east of what he called biblical proportions. In the course of his remarks, he specifically mentioned the Armenian-like massacres he intended.
The Armenian massacres were well-known throughout the world, especially in Germany, and in the German Army in which Hitler served. His chief Lieutenant Irwin Schribner Reuchter [spelling] had been a German Vice Consul in I believe Erzerum, and had seen the extermination of Armenians by Turkish state actors first hand.
Harb, thanks for providing the info on the famous Hitler quote. I am sure that the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC would never have placed this quote on a plaque on the wall in the museum without verifying its authenticity, but its good to know that other evidence can be pointed to when speak with doubters.
Murat is either ill-informed or mis-informed, or perhaps he is simply on a mission to deny the facts regardless of the evidence. I wonder if he will be able to take in this new information of simply discard it.
Harb — I’m baffled. Why do you care responding to a spiteful Turk? Weren’t you the one who stated in this discussion that, I quote, “[you were] not going to live [your] life in reaction to what is good or bad for Turkey” and that [you’re] 4 generations removed from that part of the world?”. So, why do you deign to educate a Turk?
Karo,
There is nothing that I have said that is inconsistent with checking the facts of a contention. If there wasn’t high confidence documentation that supported the Hitler quote-then I would have reported that outcome just as readily. There is nothing about being an American or 4 generations removed from Armenia that requires that I accept speculation or widely held belief as fact without checking. I have no insight into whether Murat is spiteful or not. Neither his state of mind nor his ethnicity are material to whether his contention is true or false.
Murat, your reaction reminds me of that of the austrich bird. “If I call it a lie and do not look at it, it must disappear”. The Genocide happened. Hitler used the Armenian Genocide as a German backed experiment to model the Jewish Holocaust on. The German envoys to Turkey were instrumental in the planning and cover up of the Armenian massacres, unbeknownst to the lower German officers and the German missionaries. It was said here already that some of the higher level officers/consuls who served in Turkey in WWI, were later recruited in the Nazi leadership. For names and details you can read “German responsibility in the Armenian Genocide” by Vahakn Dadrian.
Also, why are you angry at us. Complain to the Germans, and your Turkish allies, the Jews and the United States, that their this exhibit in their national archives is a lie.
Well, Harb, then with the same level of understanding you should have approached many others here and beyond who dedicate their lives to the just Cause and live them in reaction to what is good and just for Armenia and Armenians. As for Murat, you’re new on these pages, check other discussions and I’m sure you’ll get the insight how spiteful this Turk is. I believe his state of mind or his ethnicity are material to whether his contentions are true or false because it gives Armenians an idea as to what extent the minds of ethnic Turks are brainwashed by their state propaganda and distorted history taught at schools and universities. If you think that his state of mind will change due to a piece of information on Hitler’s quote that you’ve provided, you’re gravely mistaken. But, then, if all this means nothing to you, since you’re removed from this part of the world, why bother reading comments in AW, and not articles in NYT about how morally impeccable policy the US administration carries out with regard to the Armenian genocide that all presidential candidates admit before they become US presidents. Good luck.
Harb,
thanks for the link.
Dear Karo,
what is the problem with Harb pointing to the source? Isn’t it better to show Murat that he is wrong in assuming that we make things up? Especially, if you think he is spiteful. Now, he knows.
JDA.. you are absolutely amazing..
Katia jan and Boyajian jan….. no words to describe your dedication and passion..
Mjm- love your strength
Harb- thanks for the facts to badosh Murat (however small it was) even though you definintely rubbed us in a wrong way when you announced that you do not want any relations with your history and background and dont’ see the point of fighting for that….at least that is what i understood from your previous comments.. if i am wrong, my accept my apologies…but again, thanks for pointing out the facts to Murat the denialist.
Karo- as always, i can count on you to shut the denialists..:) Than you
Gayane
Gina,
There’s no problem with Harb pointing to the source. I just didn’t like the way he popped up in an Armenian forum with arrogant phrases like “I’m not going to live my life in reaction to what is good or bad for Turkey” or “I’m four generations removed from that part of the world”. Well, if so, why won’t he just stay removed and enjoy reading NYT in Hawaii, and leave defending of the Cause on more concerned people?
Gayane jan you have the talent to liven up any discussion!
Karo, I appreciate your passion, but it is always better to embrace any Armenian with any level of interest. Remember, we are already much fewer that God intended us to be. Just the fact that Harb is reading these posts tells me that he cares; which is better than many Armenians who couldn’t care less.
I agree with Gina and Katia, Karo. You are being hard on Harb. He made a positive input to this dialogue and I appreciate it, just as I always look forward to reading the ideas you share. We can be more generous with each other and accept that we do not all think alike.
Even though i agree with the notion of allowing everyone to posts facts and comments facts.. i really do…… but I also agree with Karo’s stand…
I personally did not appreciate Harb’s disconnect with his Armenianness and history and culture.. I still do not .. because when one truly is passionate about his or her history, culture and background, it truly should not matter how many generations away they are from it.. you are an Armenian first and then someone else.. but Harb does not see that and i don’t agree with that… but i dont’ have to agree with everything or everyone.that said..it does not mean i dislike the guy.. i dont’ condemn him nor i want him to go away..because maybe with his involvement in these pages he may be more inclined to relate to his roots…i don’t know..
But I support Karo’s comments.. I completely understand where he is coming from…
Gayane
I hate to repeat myself, but in short, there is no primary evidence, no direct recording, no tape or video or witnesses to Hitler ever making such a statement.
Everything written to date has attributed the purported Hitler quote, not to primary sources, but to an article that appeared in the Times of London on Saturday, November 24, 1945. Said article, entitled “Nazi Germany’s Road To War,” cites the quote and bases its attribution to Hitler on an address by him to his commanders-in-chief six year earlier, on August 22, 1939, a few days prior to his invasion of Poland.
The unnamed author turned out to be a Louis Lochner, who had came into posession (the source and veracity was never revealed) of a highly doctored version of this speech, and it seems he tried to use it to claim his 15 minutes of fame. He never heard it or witnessed it himself, in fact, no one has.
Instead, there are two formal transcripts of this important speech Hitler made that have been extracted from the notes and diaries of two high ranking German officers that have been entered as official evidence in Nuremberg trials. There is no reference to Armenians in these transcripts.
These are the facts. The actual story is a bit more tedious but I have a much longer and detailed version of it and how this little myth turned into one of the most quoted quotes, and I will submit it here if there is genuine interest and if it is ok with the editors. It is a lesson in the power of myths and myth-makers.
Murat, do you have anything to contribute that will move the dialogue with Armenians forward? You appear to be passionate to defend Turkey. You appear to have done some research(?) to support your passion. But are you willing to contribute to peace and reconciliation? Do you want peace with Armenians or do you want Armenians to disappear from the region so that Turks can have their pan-turanic empire? Does Allah inform your thoughts or are you a secular nationalist. Put it on the table, please…
Did Hitler say these words? It appears that there is evidence leaning in both directions, but clearly not enough doubt to prevent the quote from being displayed on a plaque in the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. (I have a feeling that even if an eye-witness to the speech were to step forward and confirm that these were Hitler’s words, you would still discredit it.) To me the quote is not important as evidence of proof of genocide as much as it is evidence that civilized people must stand up against such a mindset. It is showcased in the Holocaust Museum to remind humanity that there are consequences to not prosecuting governments for genocidal acts.
Historians have shown the German complicity in the CUP policies. The zeitgeist of eliminationism had been alive and well in the German military since WWI and it is no stretch to imagine that Der Fuehrer and his buddies (some of whom had served in the Ottoman regions) were emboldened by Turkey’s unpunished land grab and massacre of the Armenians. Even if Hitler didn’t actually say these words, his actions “screamed them.” The collective consciousness of civilized society knows this and that is why the quote holds up despite the doubters. It rings true. And you would not defend against it so strongly if it didn’t ring true in your conscience.
But what do you gain by arguing whether or not these words came from Hitler? Does it change the fact that Turkey eliminated the Armenians from their ancestral homeland and then benefitted from the acquisition of the property, bank accounts, life insurance policies and treasures left behind? The evidence on this is irrefutable. How do you defend Turkey on this Murat? How does a United Nations member nation defend itself against the fact that it built it’s rebirth as a modern republic in part on the blood and appropriation of wealth of 2.5 million Armenians driven out, starved to death, forceably converted and murdered? And what of the unabashed efforts to wipe the land clear of all things Armenian; destruction of churches and historical artifacts (world treasures!) and deliberate turkification in name changes of people and places? Does Turkey, or any country who takes such actions, not need to pay for this?
Go on daydreaming, Murat. Hitler’s quote on annihilation of Armenians is a myth; Raphael Lemkin’s coining the term “genocide” based on mass extermination of Armenians is a myth; foreign witness accounts back in 1915 are a myth; genocide survivors’ stories are a myth; Arabs and Kurds’ stories are a myth; Turkish own court marshal’s testimonies and verdicts are a myth; orphanages for Armenian children and escapees in many countries of the world are a myth; foreign governments and international organizations’ adoption of resolution admitting massacres of Armenians are a myth; Nobel Prize laureates’ petitions admitting and condemning Turkish crime are a myth; your own intellectuals’ growing admission of the fact is a myth; Armenian Diaspora that originated as a direct consequence of Turkish slaughters and deportations is a myth. The list goes on. If you don’t believe in these historical, documented, researched, and recognized facts, YOU are a myth…
In the strictly managed fantasy world of Murat x 50 Million, facts not supporting denialism and the uber-humanity of Turkishness are the products of bias and hidden Christian imperialism.
In the case of the Lochner and Breitiling, neither escape hatch operates. Lochner was a German American journalist, not an Armenian; Breitling a very conservative German Jew, believed to have been killed by poison by the Nazis for knowing Hitler’s intentions. His notes were authenticated as being in his hand, and they were discovered decades after his death. Murat, do you see the hidden hand of Armenians in these bits of history? There’s an app for that- its called paranoia.
As others point out, Hitler’s quote does not prove the AG took place. It does prove that the new form of state violence of 1915 gave rise to the Holocaust and each successive Genocide.
Murat,
Hear say or no hear say, documented or not documented… You will not be able to totally disprove or prove that those words were uttered by Hitler, unless you were standing next to him when he made them. However, based on enough documentation, based on the facts of history and Germany’s close relationship with Turkey in WWI, talk about the Armenian ethnic cleansing has no doubt taken place within Hitler’s circles.. Many German officers who had facilitated the planning/execution of the Armenian Genocide while stationed in Turkey during WWI, were later part of the Nazi machinery that executed the Jewish Holocaust. Germany was Turkey’s brother and ally in WWI; it funded Turkey’s military exercises, it supported CUP’s panTurkic ambitions, participated in spreading antiArmenian sentiment by purposefully distorting the truth about the Armenian freedom fighters to come up with an excuse/cover up for the Genocide, the main purpose of which was to clear/take over the Armenian lands and move on eastward. The German Kaiser bestowed the highest German military medals and honors upon the top echelon of the CUP. Talat, Enver etc were awarded the highest honorary medals from the Kaiser. And when the Turkish tribunals started, the Germans swept the CUP leaders out of Turkey and gave them amnesty. The Turkish tribunals sentenced Talat, Enver and company to death in absentia based on the testimony of hundreds of Turkish witnesses. These tribunals must have produced thousands of legal documents, however very little of those documents can be found today. Where did all those archives go? .Records about these tribunals are now mostly based on articles that were published at the time. However these articles were written in the old arabic alphabet and most Turks cannot even read the old Turkish anymore. Documents from the Tribunals have all but disappeared, the alphabet of the Turkish language was chaned to the latin alphabet by Ataturk, and an aggressive doctrine of cover up and denial started and continues till today. This after Ataturk called the mass killing of Armenians a “shameful act”.
As an Armenian, I couldn’t care less if the monster Hitler said any of those words, because the Genocide happened to my ancestors, my family, and all of our grandparents. They told us about what they went through, they described to us what their homes looked like, they told us about the killing of our relatives who did not have the chance to complete their lives, who did not have a proper burial and whom we never came to know. They described to us the fruit trees in their gardens and they said that their apricots and mulberries were the best in the world. They cried and shook when they mentioned about the siblings whom they left on the side of the road…they were dead, they would not wake up…we have so much to tell you if you only open your mind and ask, instead of just repeating that these things did not happen. They happened to us. They happened to our blood relatives, and no amount of denial or cheap technicalaties will change that fact.
Murat, you are wasting your energy in refuting the stories of OUR families. You will find many Turks in the Turkish mountainside who will describe to you exactly how they killed Armenians. If you do not want to listen to us, you should at least find these people and listen to them.
Amen, Katia K. I know that, in the mercy of our Lord, we WILL win this.
AMEN indeed….
Apres Katia jan.. tsavt tanem yes qo… for a minute i was taken to my great grandparents and grandparents lands as I was reading your post… the beautiful and rich lands they used to live on for generations.. i felt i was standing in front of their homes and gardens …but then it suddenly vanished and dissapeared just like them by the hands of blood thirsty Turkish Army and Govt…
Murat does not have an ounce of decency or mercy in his body… he brain is trained to think one way and that is what he is doing.. unfortunately, he does not know that one day he and his kind will answer to God.. the judgement day will come… so i dont’ care what he thinks and as Karo said very beautifully, Murat is the myth (Karo jan.. apres.. LAV asetsir)….
Gayane
Very well said Boyajian, Karo, JDA, Katia and Gayane.
Asdvadz tsesze bahe bashbane.
Of course there was such a quote, Murat, it’s inscribed on a wall in the US Holocaust Memorial Museum.
Nope, there was no such quote or statement by Hitler at any time. Facts do not lie. The fact that it made its way all the way to the Holocaust Memorial shows the scale and scope of the hoax.
Boyajian
you ask Murat:
Murat, do you have anything to contribute that will move the dialogue with Armenians forward?
Comment:
for curiosity’s sake, how does on in your opinion go on moving a dialogue forward?
Murat
we all probably know that Heath lowry questioned the hitler citation and held that this citation was probably falsely attributed to Hitler in a summary made by general Halder who at the time – shortly before the invasion of Poland – was working again Hitler and made up the citation to discredit him. But in the debating forum of the university of Michigan, – I believe I do not commit an illoyalty in referring this – the historian M. Lavinia Anderson – who specializes in German history – said that Lowry had overlooked one of the most thorough German historians who, if I remember correctly, in a publication in the 1950-ies – could cite other people present at the same speech made by Hitler and who could confirm that Hitler had said: “Who remembers the Armenians?”. Apart from this I believe it is confirmed that the ultra rightist Germans in the 20-ies and 20-ies made this kind of references to the events of 1915-6 as an example of Turks effectively, and ruthlessly, destroying the agressive potentials of an internal enemy. So Hitler seems to have been part of a tradition of admiration for the young Turks.
But if this is so, it only shows that the German rightists had this idea about the ittihadists. If this idea is truthful or not is of course something else. So the discussion in a way leads nowhere, or further away from a fruitful dialogue between Armenians and Turks. The ittihadist/nazi analogy is overexploited, and in many ways misleading.
“Facts do not lie” proclaimed Murat. Your prime-minister recently confirmed that there were 60-70,000 Armenians living in Turkey, mostly in Constantinople. Various sources—Ottoman , Armenian, and foreign—estimate the number of Ottoman Armenians being up to 2 mln, some even put the number as high as 2,5 mln people. These are facts that never lie unless you outrightly deny the ones that portray your state as a nation of barbarian genocide-perpetrators. Therefore, my question, based on these facts, is: What happened to the millions of Armenians living on their ancestral lands? Might you know?
Hitler didn’t say “Who remembers the Armenians?” He said “Who, after all, remembers the annihilation of Armenians.” Every year on April 24th dozens of US Congressmen and Senators cite this expression in their remarks commemorating the genocide of Armenians by Turks and honoring the innocent victims. Their commemorative remarks are archived in US Congress records. I don’t think that distinguished members of the US legislative body would cite the expression if it was false. But, of course, there are Turks who’d do anything to find excuses for annihilation of the Armenian race or Turkophiles who’d tell the victims old wives’ tales about no genocidal intent based on no note testifying to this left on a burnt down to the ground church with hundreds of burnt alive Armenian women and children in it, sealed and signed personally by Tallat, Jemal, and Enver.
A number of statements Hitler made in the 1920s and 30s indicate that he was knowledgeable about both Armenians and Turks in general, about the historical record of the persecution of the Armenians, and their demise in Turkey through Turkish extermination. Here are the statements and, especially for denialist Turks like Murat, the references.
HITLER’S REFERENCES TO THE ARMENIANS:
1924:
In one of the earliest surviving written documents containing statements and speeches by Hitler covering the period up to 1924, the future Nazi leader makes an allusion to the Armenians as victims of their lack of courage for combativeness.2
The “solution of the Jewish question,” he added, requires, therefore, “a bloody clash.” Otherwise, Hitler noted, “the German people will end up becoming just like the Armenians” (…das deutsche Volk wird ein Volk wie die Armenier…).3
1931:
Edouard Galic published his book Ohne Maske in 1968 in which the texts of two newly uncovered confidential 1931 interviews with Hitler were published. It develops that eight years before the famous speech delivered at Obersalzberg in 1939, Hitler had made exactly the same statement when he cited the historical fact of “the extermination of the Armenians.”
During the second interview in June 1931 he discussed his future plans of massive deportations and the inevitable ruination of the victim populations involved. He was being interviewed by Richard
Breiting, the powerful editor of the great German daily Leipziger Neueste Nachrichten, the organ of the conservative-nationalist Germans. Departing from his rigid policy, Hitler allowed Breiting to take short-hand notes swearing him, however, to secrecy. Here is his remark: 4
Everywhere people are awaiting a new world order. We intend to introduce a great resettlement policy…Think of the biblical deportations and the massacres of the Middle Ages…and remember the extermination of the Armenians [erinnern Sie sich doch an die Ausrottung Armeniens. One eventually reaches the conclusion that masses of men are mere biological plasticine.5 We will not allow ourselves to be turned into niggers as the French tried to do after 1918. The Nordic blood available in England, northern France and North America will eventually go with us to reorganize the world.
1933:
When in July 1933 Hitler was interviewed by the editor of the Turkish newspaper “Milliyet” he said that the movement in modern Turkey had been for him a “shining star.” Turkey had based itself upon the primitive native peasantry of Anatolia, and similarly one of Germany’s greatest
tasks was the building up (Aufbau) of the German peasant class.6
1939:
On November 24, 1945, The New York Times printed a number of texts of Hitler’s talks under the caption: “Partial Text of Talks.” It noted: “These are excerpts from documents reporting the talks Hitler gave to Reichmarshal Hermann Goering and the commanding generals at Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939.” The statement by Hitler, “who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians,” is from a very crucial document that was transmitted to British diplomats in Berlin in August 1939 by Louis Lochner who was for more than two decades chief of the Berlin Bureau of The Associated Press and for six years President of the Foreign Press Association there. It is a summary of one or two speeches Hitler delivered to the Chief Commanders and Commanding Generals at Obersalzberg, August 22, 1939, in preparation for the impending invasion of Poland. In that speech Hitler is telling the high ranking military officers to be brutal and merciless for a quick victory (Seien Sie hart, seien Sie schonungslos, handeln Sie schneller und brutaler als die andern).7
1943:
Hitler, at the Klessheim Conference (April 17, 1943), plunged into a speech full of invectives against the Jews as depraved parasites, as “tubercular bacilli that threatened a healthy body.” He was arguing in the sense that nations which could not defend themselves against what he viewed as the pernicious influence of the Jews were doomed to suffer the fate of “once so proud a people as the Persians, who now had to continue their miserable existence as Armenians.” 8
NOTES:
1 The explicit reference to the Armenians in Hitler’s speech “who still talks nowadays of the extermination of the Armenians” is made in a paragraph furnishing the context of one of Hitler’s notions. That notion provides for the creation of a new world order requiring mass murder for which Hitler cited the example of Genghis Khan who “sent millions of women and children to death knowingly and cheerfully (fröhlichen Herzens). Yet, history sees in him only the great founder of States.” This line of thought is introduced to conclude that the extermination of the Armenians served a similar purpose. The Turks destroyed them mercilessly allowing Mustafa Kemal to establish a new state system, and the world not only consigned the annihilation of the Armenians to oblivion but has accepted the new order of things because, “The world believes only in success” (Die Welt glaubt nur an den Erfolg.). NYT. 11/24/45, p.7, col.2. [Note: art work, facsimile of the NYT front page, and photograph of Hitler have been added.]
2 Eberhard Jäckel and Axel Kuhn eds., Hitler. Sämtliche Aufzeichnungen 1905-1924 (Stuttgart, 1980), 775. The respective document is identified as one emanating from the German Federal Archives (Bundesarchiv) R48 I, Reichs Chancellor’s Office (Reichskanzlei), dossier no. 2681, pp.85 ff. [Yale Journal of International Law, Vol. 23, No.2, 1998, p.537]
3 Ibid.
4 Breiting, Richard, 1882-1937.Uniform title: Ohne Maske. English.; Title: Secret Conversations with Hitler; The Two Newly – Discovered 1931 Interviews. Edited by Edouard Calic. With a foreword by Golo Mann. Translated from the German by Richard Barry. [1st American ed.] New York, John Day Co. [1971] Description: 191 p. 21 cm. Notes: Translation of Ohne Maske. “Transcript of Richard Breiting’s shorthand notes”: p. 17-93. Bibliography: p. 180-186. Calic, Edourd; Unmasked [n.8], 81; in the German original., 101. Here is an excerpt from Ludwig Krieger’s Memorandum regarding the interview [Yale Journal of International Law, Vol. 23, No.2, 1998, p.540]: “The transcript checks with the original…Having been a shorthand writer at Hitler’s briefing conferences in his headquarters during the Second World War, I recognize Hitler’s style and reactions throughout the record. Breiting’s papers as a whole confirm the sequence of events. Both from the factual and political points of view; the checking of these papers has been of extreme interest to me. Breiting’s shorthand record is assuredly of great historical value since, as far as I know, no shorthand notes of private discussions with Hitler in the pre-1933 period exist.”
5 The term “biological plasticine” is derived from the work of German political geographer and ethnographer Friedrich Ratzel, (1844-1904) who developed the theory of the organic state and introduced the concept of Lebensraum, or “living space,” which relates human groups to the spatial units where they develop. In his work, Ratzel introduced many concepts, including Lebensraum, and ideas that would eventually be called Social Darwinism. These would later be appropriated for use beyond Ratzel’s original intentions and ideas. His concept of Lebensraum in particular was seized upon by the German National Socialists as a basis for some of their policies in the 1930’s. Though Ratzel pointed out the propensity of a state to expand or contract its boundaries according to rational capabilities, the subsequent misuse of the Lebensraum concept by the Nazi regime in Germany was largely based on the interpretation of Ratzel’s concept by the Swedish political scientist Rudolf Kjellén. [see his essay “Lebensraum” (1901), often cited as a starting point in geopolitics, was a study in biogeography. When Ratzel developed the concept of Lebensraum, he hypothesized that the state naturally seeks to increase its size. If the state’s neighbors are weak, the state will grow larger and spread into other states. As evidence, Ratzel believed that space was a great political force. Unfortunately, Ratzel’s ideas were once again misinterpreted and used for the wrong purpose. People, such as Karl Haushofer and Adolf Hitler, used these ideas to formulate their own theories about world domination.[ibid]
6 Reported in the Frankfurter Zeitung, July 22, 1933; Quoted in The Speeches of Adolf Hitler. April 1922— August 1939. vol. 1. Norman H. Baynes. trans. and ed. (Oxford University Press, 1942), p.868. [The rise of the Turkish middle class was a direct consequence of the Armenian Genocide and the expropriation of the properties, goods, and monies belonging to Armenians throughout Anatolia.]
7 See note 1
8 R. Hillberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (Chicago, 1969), 524. The data are culled from a summary prepared by Dr. Paul Otto Schmidt, German Foreign Office interpreter, on the meeting at Klessheim. Hitler and Foreign Minister Ribbentrop were trying to induce Admiral Horty, the Hungarian Regent, to proceed against the Jews of Hungary mercilessly, namely, to have them killed off. . [Yale Journal of International Law, Vol. 14, No.2, 1989]
Oh, the notorious Heath Lowry. The one that’s been apprehended when taking bribe from a Turkish ambassador for falsifying facts about Armenian genocide. We know the guy…
Again, Murat, how does whether or not Hitler said these words change the fact that Turkey committed genocide against the Armenians? Hitler and the Nazis clearly knew the history and it is not a stretch to imagine that they were emboldened by the fact that Turkey built its new Republic on the bloodied backs of the Armenians and was getting away with it.
Ragnar, my old friend, for curiosity sake, why do you ask me? I am sure you could enlighten us with your vast mediation skills.
mjm, we are indebted to your research skills and dedication to the truth. Thank you for clearing that up.
And, to our buddy Murat, “Was sagst du jetzt?”
“Turks effectively and ruthlessly destroying the aggressive potentials of an internal enemy”. Ragnar, your words reek of antiArmenian sentiment. Where do you come up with this kind of unsubstentiated far fetched explanations? Defenseless women, men and children were not “potential” enemies of Turkey, “their rights for a free homeland” was the potential “enemy” of Turkey. You are twisting the facts in order to suit your purpose of propagating the same “fake excuse” the Ottoman empire fed its people in order to entice them to take over Armenian homes/assets and to kill their Armenian neighbors and friends. The “enemy within” is a very irresponsible and distorted picture of the Ottoman Armenians that you keep on refering to; which by the way has absolutely no contribution in “moving the dialogue forward”. The Armenian freedom foghters were the only Armenian military challenge, and their objective was to protect the Armenian population from the oppressive Ottoman empire and the regular massacres it unleashed on them. Who in their right mind would agree to live like a slave on their own ancestral land, and not fight for their freedom when the opportunity presented itself. All the other oppressed nations under the Ottoman empire did the same. I guess we should label them as “dangerous internal enemies” also; by the way “they” succeeded in breaking away from the empire. The truth is that the few groups of freedom fighters were no challenge to the Turkish and German battalions! As a matter of fact, whenever the Turks could not supress the Armenians who refused to leave their homes and decided to fight for their lives (like in Van where Akhtamar is) they brought the Germains over to finish them off with artillary bombing. This concept of “Armenian inside enemies” was the same exact one that was concocted by Turkey as a cover for their main objective of emptying the Armenian Villayets of the Armenians and keeping those lands for themselves. I guess this ruse is still working on people like you who label innocent civilians as “dangerous internal enemies”. And of course you label Hitler’s quote as “irrelevant” to our “dialogue” because it does not suit you. Well don’t worry it was not meant for you. It was meant for Murat whom we are trying to snap out of his brainwashed state.
The only way the dialogue can move forward is when Turkey gets enough guts and decency to face its past. It has been avoiding justice, spending millions of dollars, paying off politicians and historians to distort the truth and buying the silence of world leaders such as the US and Israel by striking strategic, geopolitical deals and making political concessions such as selling off the palestinians in return.
The bottom line is that an international crime against humanity has been committed that is going unpunished because of immoral political gain, and we are here to demand that Turkey answers to the law of the land instead of avoiding law and justice. We are encouraged by courageous Turks who are pushing their government to do what’s right. The Armenians are only asking for what is rightfully theirs. They are not closing borders, making war threats or threatening with economical/military boycotts. We are here asking for justice for our ancestors as well as reparations for everything that was taken from them. That is the dialogue that has been waiting for the past 95 years. We are ready.
Katia, from what I can tell Ragnar has gotten much of his information from Bernard Lewis with a healthy dose of Guenter Lewy thrown in for good measure. That says a lot right there. Those who want to know more about Lewis or Lewy as historians should google their names. Da’ Nile ain’t just a river…
Boyajian — Also noted is the careful language Ragnar chooses when addressing a comment to a Turk. “… events of 1915-6 as an example of Turks effectively, and ruthlessly, destroying the aggressive potentials of an internal enemy.” Lewis and Lewy need no introduction to many of us, I believe. What is noteworthy, however, is that even Lewis accepts that Turks emptied eastern provinces of Armenians because losing them to Armenian [national liberation] movement would be tantamount to losing Turkey. That is, implicitly a notorious genocide-denier like him accepted that there should have been an exterminatory intent for executing a plan of such magnitude. But some freshly-cooked “pundits” on these pages still bla-bla about some “potentials(?!) of internal enemy(?!)” Let them bla-bla… until we win!
Ragnar is very calculated.. he will never say anything out of the blue.. just like when we put him on the spot about his comment on the Turkish newspaper about Mscheci and Anti- Turkishness from the Armenian side.. he said it was a slip of a finger and don’t we make such mistakes… My response was.. yes .. any decent human being who is true to himself or herself will make such hasty mistake but Ragnar is not that.. in reality there is nothing slip of a finger about Ragnar.. he knows exactly what he writes and how he writes is…
Murat..is another case…
Thank you Karo and Boyajian for the tips and sources. Thank you MJM for your amazing list of historic excerpts mentioning the Hitler quote.
Yes, the sources that Ragnar continously refers to do explain much here…
gayane
you are incorrigible!! You only look for the things you want to see and if you dont find it you invent it, apparently.
I wrote:
Germans in the 20-ies and 20-ies made this kind of references to the events of 1915-6 as an example of Turks effectively, and ruthlessly, destroying the agressive potentials of an internal enemy.
comment:
But for heavens’ sake – this is a way of paraphrazing what those germans thoughts. It is not my opinion. These germans were obsessed with etnic purity and also with effectivity. you completely overlook the fact that I am REFERRING to VIEWS of OTHERS. Are you surprised that I generally do not answer your mails?
Karo
I am very sorry for the sake of the Armenian cause if you appear in discussions with these types of interventions and arguments. That is – if you want to speak to those who are not already part of the convinced. You cannot make any case of someone writing “events” isted of “genocide”. You are victim of a type of – I dont know what!!!! And especially not against me because I have explained in what sense I say it was a genocide and in what sense not. When you fail to relate to my arguments why should I take you seriously?
mjm
this touches on historical method. the answer is not only citations but also a discussion of the evidenice in question.
katia K
you write:
“Turks effectively and ruthlessly destroying the aggressive potentials of an internal enemy”. Ragnar, your words reek of antiArmenian sentiment
comment:
Katia K, if you were in any ordinary dialogue, in a working place, in a kinder garden, anywhere in normal life, you could never argue in this way. And then you mix up the fact of me REFERRING to an opinion (which some germans had) with me HAVING this opinion. Making dialogue in this way is a recipe for an ENDLESS QUARREL not for any dialogue in progress.
boyajian
you must have had a bad day when you wrote your last comment on me.
Lowry, Lewis, and Lewy…Ragnar, Murat, and Robert…Moe, Larry, and Curly…
Three blind mice, three blind mice…
Ragnar, is it untrue?
ragnar – First, I don’t give a d*** if you take me seriously or not. Second, I need not be apologetic to the ones whose state has near-annihilated my entire nation. Third, you are nobody for me so I reveal what I do for the sake of the Armenian Cause. And, lastly, if you’re cultured enough, then you should know that referring to an opinion which some Germans had should have been put in quotes or accompanied with parenthetical words, such as “as they say” or “as they put it”. Otherwise, readers take the opinion that the genocide was an “event” or that unarmed, disorganized Armenian civilians represented “aggressive potentials of an internal enemy,” as your own.
Boyajian, new – or should I say young? – friend,
I take your question as a joke. Check the people I have been referring to in these debates. Apart from this Lewis never gave any argumentation of the type that provides any analysis. Apart from a short assertion in “the emergence of modern Turkey” I never read any analysis from him. A much better guess is Justin McCarthy who provided the first account of the atrocities against Turks. His writings have meant a lot to me. But agree with him 100 percent? My starting point was my work with human rights in Turkey and it means our focus is different. I am now writing on “Turkish forum” against their anti-Armenian posts, some of which are quite ghastly as I say, further in “Daily Zaman” to support excellent people like Orhan Kemal Cengiz.
Karo
I see your point. I wrote: Apart from this I believe it is confirmed that the ultra rightist Germans in the 20-ies and 20-ies made this kind of references to the events of 1915-6 as an example of Turks effectively, and ruthlessly, destroying the agressive potentials of an internal enemy.
comment:
I would say that it is clear here that I refer to an opinion held by somebody else, not stating my own opinion. This is shown by my words: they made references to…..(something)…..AS….But since I wrote in English which is not my mother tongue, I may well have committed as mistake and opened the possibilities of misunderstanding.
karo
my apologies. I mixed you up with jda. It was jda who was the target of my post beginning with “I am very sorry for the sake of the Armenian cause…”. I really have no criticism of your posts, on the contrary. …..feblemindedness on my part….
Ragnar.. you only rely on scientific methods.. right? MJM gave you excellent sources yet you ignor it because they are historical methods.. so if it is not a scientific method, you will dismiss it correct? exactly…
oh..and don’t worry.. i have not lost sleep over AT ALL from your nonresponsiveness to my comments..i express what I have gathered from observing, reading and communicating with you not only from this forum but also from our previous discussions.. you are calculated, confused, manipulative and you love to twist words as well as rely heavinly on Genocide deniars work… so in reality, i am not saying anything that is not obvious to the readers… oh, and one more thing.. i am not nor i want to solicit any of your responses.. because your writings give me pain..so no worries.. it is all good in the neighborhood…
To be honest with you all, i believe there is something really seriously wrong with Ragnar, Murat and Robert and the rest who think and believe as they do.. they dont’ seem to understand or get it..
Vagharshag jan.. thank you for the laugh.. i needed it.. after reading Ragnar’s comments.. i needed a dose of humor.. thank you.. ;)
Karo.. you are my hero..:)
Gayane
Now we have Justin McCarthy popping up in this discussion. A “scholar on the Turkish side of the debate,” as most of genocide scholars know him. He holds an honorary doctorate from Boğaziçi University, Turkey, and is a board member of the Institute of Turkish Studies. McCarthy served in Peace Corps in Turkey from 1967-1969, where he taught at Middle East Technical University and Ankara University. What’s happening to all those who one way or the other were art and part in Turkey? Like McCarthy or our own Ragnar here? Are Turkish flattery and smoke-and-mirror that powerful? Don Bloxham identifies McCarthy’s work as part of a wider project of undermining scholarship affirming the Armenian Genocide, by reducing it to something analogous to a population exchange. Bloxham contends that McCarthy’s work serves “to muddy the waters for external observers, conflating war and one-sided murder with various discrete episodes of ethnic conflict… [A] series of easy get-out clauses for Western politicians and non-specialist historians keen not to offend Turkish opinion.” Some Armenian advocacy groups claimed that McCarthy lent support to the Assembly of Turkish American Associations, which led an effort to defeat recognition of the Armenian Genocide by the U.S. Congress in 1985. Isn’t this thought-provoking of what kind of individual we’re dealing with?
Ragnar, new, young, old, it’s all relative! There are days I feel as old as Armenia after reading what some Turks and Turkophiles write here. The weight of the injustice that Armenia has been asked to shoulder so that Turks don’t have to face their past and so that certain major powers can protect their petroleum interests is a heavy burden. There are bad days, indeed.
Which question do you take as a joke?
How do you believe one moves this dialogue forward?
I hope you hold a more sceptical position on McCarthy’s work. McCarthy has not helped the dialogue, but rather he helps Turks avoid looking at their culpability and he is a bit anti-Armenian himself. Not an unbiased historian from what I know. Nicht wahr?
I have not found your recent contributions to the Turkish Forum or Today’s Zaman challenging anti-Armenianism. I will look for it.
Boyajian jan.. i was going to ask the same question to Ragnar about his comments on Anti-Armenianess on the TUrkish forums but you already did..
Thank you..
Ragnar.. please do direct us to the comments you posted where you condemn Anti-Armenianness of the Turks..
Ragnar you said:
“we all probably know that Heath lowry questioned the hitler citation and held that this citation was probably falsely attributed to Hitler in a summary made by general Halder who at the time – shortly before the invasion of Poland – was working again Hitler and made up the citation to discredit him”
Can you please stop citing historians whose work is known to be funded by the government of Turkey. How do you know if Lowry did not concoct the story about “Hadler inventing the quote because he was against Hitler”, mainly to satisfy the agenda of his Turkish sponsors? By the way, what kind of a historian bases his paper on speculation about the intentions of witnesses, or draws up conclusions of his own by discrediting witness accounts? Does Lowry prove beyond any doubt that Hadler made up the quote “who after all remembers the Armenians…?”
You continue,
“But in the debating forum of the university of Michigan, –I believe I do not commit an illoyalty in referring this– the historian M. Lavinia Anderson – who specializes in German history – said that Lowry had overlooked one of the most thorough German historians who, if I remember correctly, in a publication in the 1950-ies – could cite other people present at the same speech made by Hitler and who could confirm that Hitler had said: “Who remembers the Armenians?””
What do you mean by ” I believe I do not commit an illoyalty in referring this“? Do you mean to say that you are not sure about the reference you are making? Also, do you think that it was a coincidence that Lowry who is supported by the Turkish lobbyists overlooked one of the most thorough German historians who confirmed the quote about the Armenians?
You continue further,
“Apart from this I believe it is confirmed that the ultra rightist Germans in the 20-ies and 20-ies made this kind of references to the events of 1915-6 as an example of Turks effectively, and ruthlessly, destroying the agressive potentials of an internal enemy”.
Thank you for conceding that your lack of mastery in the English language and grammar could have led us to believe that the last part of this sentence came from you. A couple of quotation marks would have shown that you attributed the thought to the Germans. However, Ragnar, you have yourself in many posts(esp during the “What Davutoglu fails to understand…” debate), consistantly pushed the idea of the Armenians being an “internal enemy” by saying that the Armenians had the Turks backed in a corner,and that Armenian soldiers joined the ranks of the Russian battalions etc… all in an attempt it seemed to find excuses for what the Turks did to the mass of the Armenian civilian population. Your past posts together with the linguistic problem in the sentence led me to believe that the affirmation of the Armenians being “internal enemies” came from you.
You continued:
“So Hitler seems to have been part of a tradition of admiration for the young Turks.
But if this is so, it only shows that the German rightists had this idea about the ittihadists. If this idea is truthful or not is of course something else. So the discussion in a way leads nowhere, or further away from a fruitful dialogue between Armenians and Turks. The ittihadist/nazi analogy is overexploited, and in many ways misleading.”
Please explain to me what you mean with the sentences that I highlighted in bold print. What idea did the Germans have about the Ittihadists? What do you mean with “misleading analogy”? By the way no one made that analogy in this discussion. This comes across as an attempt to change what is being discussed and make it about something it is not. We only said that some Germans who were very close to Talat and Enver and helped out with the extermination of the Armenians, were later part of Hitler’s Nazi machinery.
Germany, THE WWI ally of Turkey, acknowledged that the Turks ethnically cleansed the Armenians with the following resolution in 2005: “The German parliament deplores the acts of the Government of the Ottoman Empire regarding the almost complete destruction of Armenians in Anatolia and also the inglorious role of the German Reich in the face of the organized expulsion and extermination of Armenians which it did not try to stop. Women, children and elderly were from February 1915 sent on death marches towards the Syrian desert.” These were the people closest to the Ittihadists. They had the power to stop what they saw, but they did not. If Turkey’s number one ally of WWI acknowledges what happened to the Armenians, what is there left to say.
Ragnar, you later wrote that the way I debate is like a “kindergarten” person…
Well here are the problems with the way you are posting your comments here:
1. You take the liberty to criticize our style of “debating” even though we have reminded you a million times that we are regular people, and these are not formal, controlled discussions by professionals. You seem to constantly think of us as professional debaters or official representatives of the Armenians. While being critical to us, you are oblivious to the fact that your lack of mastery of the English language has caused many misunderstandings here.
2. You do not come across as an objective balanced researcher because you mainly quote or praise known Armenian Genocide deniers, most of whom are funded by Turkey.
3. You do not have a definitive position on the matter. You are going in circles, making contradictory comments, trying not to hurt the Turks but not completely denying the obvious. I don’t know what you are debating about. “The Genocide happened (proArmenian), but the “Genocidal Intent” cannot be proven (proTurkish). There is a condition that describes this state. It is called “paralysis of analysis”.
4. You say you are interested in applying the “scientific method” in proving if the Genocide happened. This I think qualifies as a “kindergarten idea”. How can the “scientific method” which is used to prove/disprove “scientific Hypotheses” about things happening in “nature” apply to history and politics? The only possible way that a “scientific method” can help here is by “explaining” how or why the Genocide happened. It cannot alter the obvious outcome. History is not a “natural science”. History is about what happened, based on facts/eye witness accounts/obvious consequences. Politics on the other hand has really nothing to do with facts. It is the art of manipulating individuals/masses to come to see your point of view in order to push your agenda. Denial is Politics. Genocide is History. Science, I am afraid is not designed to take into account human manipulations/falsifications/distortions. Science is black and white; Humanity involves an unlimited variations of color, made more complicated by different backgrounds of ethnicity and life experience. One is not equipped to explain the other. You cannot interfere with justice for a Genocide involving the demise of 1.5 million civilians, because you are not finding a “scientific” proof such as a document of a written order by Talat. The Genocide happened in the country of Turkey, it was not stopped by the Turkish leaders/authorities of the time, the deportees were intentionally sent into fatal conditions, therefore Turkey is responsible for what happened to the victims.
5. I am afraid your comments lack dept and richness of context. Your facts/sources are very weak and I do not see how they are proving/disproving your still not defined “scientific hypothesis”. Most of the time you pursue trivial “word games”, “technicalities”, or you preach about the “correct way of debating” and chose to ignore or side sweep many intelligent and seriously worthy points that come up.
Katia, Ragnar really got under your skin again! Remember, while he is criticized here for “inconsistency” as you point out, he would say that he is in the process of conducting an in depth analysis of the facts. He has told us that he is not sure that the Ittihadists intended genocide but agrees that their policies had genocidal results. He agrees that the Turks need to come to terms with their past, but…
Ragnar what do you think Turkey owes Armenia for these genocidal results which you acknowledge?
Murat, about a week ago I asked you some pointed questions and I am still waiting for your response. You have only appeared again to dispute the veracity of a Hitler quote. But I am still wondering: Do you want peace with Armenians or do want them to “go away” so that the pan-Turanic dream can be fulfilled? Also, does Allah inform your views or are you a secular nationalist?
I come from a Christian perspective of forgiveness, repentance and redemption and I welcome peace with peace-loving Turks. Is this even in the realm of possibility from your perspective? I am just wondering how open a dialogue can be found with you?
Boyajian: Murat only appears here and there to spit out venom and then hide when confronted with loaded questions. A typical nomadic behavior. All they can is to attack you in hordes and then hide as cowards. Remember their subhuman behavior during the genocide: hordes of gendarmes, chettes, and soldiers would attack defenseless women, children, and the elders. I bet deep in their sick psyche they’d think what courageous, vigorous, able-bodied men they were when slaughtering children and raping women. Many commentators asked Murat questions but he avoids entering the dialogue. Apparently, his mission on these pages is that of the one on an primitive level: just confront our reasoned comments and spit venom here and there. That’s an apex of their mentality.
Ragnar,
You lose track of your own comments. In a series of comments over two weeks on this thread alone, you deny Genocide in some unspecified manner, affirm it, say you don’t deny it, claim it is not proven in some mystical world of your own invention called “the juridical sense.” and blather on while purporting to tell Armenian people on this site that they don’t live up to your sclerotic ground rules.
And you bring up Justin McCarthy, the Turks’ favorite demographer, whom even Lewy lampoons for his advancing the civil war thesis.
Your comments are inconsistent and frantic. I can see why you fled from academics [except the Turk funded uu] who actually know their fields.
Your only function is to spit on the dead and pick fights with those in perpetual mourning. Who are you to tell Armenians how to conduct themselves, a poser and a dilettante? Its bad enough that our grandparents were murdered, it is worse still that anyone should try to justify their killings, as you do. You give aid and comfort to our enemies.
mjm, I was giving him the benefit of the doubt. I was wondering if he was merely driven to ‘sniping’ when emotions got high or one who wanted to pursue truth and reconciliation.
Ragnar, just some thoughts on Lewis: He compromised his reputation as a truthful historian when he went on record suggesting that there was a ‘massive armed rebellion’ among the Armenians that provoked the Turkish deportations which led to the ‘tragic deaths’ of vast numbers of Armenians. Like you, he suggests that there is no proof of genocidal intent.
First, where is the proof of this ‘massive armed rebellion?’ We have already noted that armed resistance took place, but no one has shown to my satisfaction why this should have necessarily led to ‘deportation with unfortunate and unintended consequences’ against an entire, primarily innocent, unarmed Armenian population. Nor does such a claim justify why the Armenian properties, bank accounts and insurance policies were appropriated by the government. The scale of the CUP response is what is questioned here. Also the paucity of CUP efforts to stop the massacres and provide relief to refugees. Society has a right to judge the fairness of the Turkish response to the perceived ‘Armenian threat’ and to deem it moral or immoral, justified or ghastly, and forgivable or requiring compensation.
Secondly, with regard to intent: it is not critical to establish intent to prove culpability for genocide. Check the definition. As you have noted, the results speak for themselves. And there is no statute of limitations on such claims.
So the question follows, what do we as a society say when humans are treated so disposably? It is a question that falls on each of us. When victims cry out at the wrong committed against them, whether they are Armenians, Rwandans, Darfurians, Kurds, Alevis, Jews, Palestinians or Cambodians, should we cringe and call them whiners? Or should we join with them in solidarity against such barbaric practices. And should these victims not cry out even louder when the perpetrators deny the offenses or blame the victims instead? And what of victims whose numbers have been so diminished and whose condition so compromised that they cannot defend themselves, shouldn’t champions for their cause emerge from among the rest of us?
The answer with respect to the Armenians is simple. The genocidal results are obvious. Historians can debate ad infinitum for the sake of historical record, but that has little to do with the question of who is responsible for the death of 1.5 million Armenians and their virtual elimination from 3/4 of their traditional homeland. Even the Turks acknowledge the ‘tragic deaths of the Armenians.’ Perceived provocations and excuses aside, Turkey must come to terms with its crime against the Armenians. The denial and deliberate distortion of the historical record for the sake of avoiding responsibility must end and ethical academics and researchers should avoid being pawns in the hands of unrepentant perpetrators.
The notion that Armenians should then also acknowledge the deaths of Turks caused by Armenian resistance opens a whole other can of worms. All murder is reprehensible. But should Turkey not also look honestly at itself and analyze the oppressive conditions in Ottoman society that led to uprisings, self-determination struggles and alliance with Russian forces among ethnic minorities in the waning days of the empire? What of the fact that the CUP reneged on its promise of reforms for Armenians, what of the perceived threat to Armenians that the CUP policies meant a continuation of Ottoman-style oppression? What of the right of a people to defend life, liberty and justice? A thorough analysis cannot ignore these facts when considering the determinants that led to the genocide.
Historians who point to a perceived ‘Armenian threat’ and to ‘massive armed rebellions’ are obfuscating the truth, not clarifying it. Armenians were a minority within the empire and even if every man woman and child was armed with rifles and machetes, this would not constitute justification for the actions that the Ittihadists took against them. That is the only point that matters. The rest is just excuses.
AMEN TO KATIA JAN and BOYAJIAN JAN…
Apreq… pshaqaghva when i read your comments… truly.. thank you
After all this education we still have these people come back with the same stupid comments..that is why i really think there is absolutely something seriously wrong with Ragnar, Robert, Murat and even karekin….
I say Murat and Robert pop up when the discussions JUST starting because they know they would not have too many readers on the forum yet..they say what they want to say and then leave the forum…avoiding questions and comments directed to them like a scary cats…they can’t face the music like men..typical..
THANK GOD menq unenq Katia, Boyajian, Mjm, Karo, Arm_K and the rest who assist with this never ending fight.. but yes giten vor mi or menq piti haxtenq… for sure…
I truly apologize if my responses and discussion here looks disconnected and “nomadic”and questions remain unanswered. Only a low percentage of my responses show up here for unknown reasons, and I have noticed that the ones I put in more time and thought are less preferred over the short snipes.
Murat: I don’t think you’re sincere in that “only a low percentage of my responses show up here”. I wish moderators could confirm if you’re telling us the truth, and if you’re not, as I suspect, then your “short snipes” are nothing else that a type of nomadic incursions. It shows that you either lack evidence to sustain your arguments or that you’re simply on a mission to mud waters and tilt minds. Waste of time.
The telegrams ordering the Armenian genocide, and telling the Special Organization to murder Armenians, were introduced as evidence at the post WW 1 trials in Constantinople in 1919. The Turks who testified were quite clear that they were given explicit orders to kill Armenians, not just deport them.
Turkish deniers say that these trials were unreliable because the Allies were occupying Turkey. That is absurd. No Turk could or would have any reason to deliberately manufacture evidence or testimony of that type. What, a man is going to incriminate himself of murder just so he can have the pleasure of going to jail or being hung?
And scores of Turks are going to admit to murder just to please England?
None of this evidence is actually needed anyway. When thousands of dead bodies are lying around a lake or on a road with bullet and bayonet holes, you know what happened.
The problem is that we Armenians have gotten locked into a historical debate, allowing genocide deniers to call the shots, to which we feel we must respond.
The very fact that so many Turks deny what happened to the Armenians and other Christians shows what a truly sick society Turkey still is.
boyajian
you write:
Secondly, with regard to intent: it is not critical to establish intent to prove culpability for genocide. Check the definition.
comment:
no, the definition of 1948 convention runs like the following:
IN THE PRESENT CONVENTION, GENOCIDE MEANS ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ACTS COMMITTED WITH INTENT TO DESTROY , IN WHOLE OR IN PART, A NATIONAL, ETHNICAL RACIAL OR RELIGIOUS GROUP, AS SUCH¨
As you see, intent is a constituent part of the definition.
see Shabaz (2000): Genocide in international law p. 214-222 for a discussion of the concept of intent.
For this reason it is very often said that it is a problem with the convention that intent is difficult to prove.
I repeat that I am not so interested in answering the question of the intent of the ittihadists. Their moral responsibility id obvious and also the results, as you say.
The deliberations here illustrate what I mean by “intent” in a juridical sense.
For the rest of your questions, I believe I would only repeat myself. Look at my earlier posts.
To make a dialogue you have to show some respect for the one you discuss with. If you dont, people will stop answering. This does not apply to you, but to many of the others whom I do not care to answer. And honestly speaking, the style of some of the people here is a liability for the Armenian cause.
I am willing to continue the dialogue with you, if you want, but then please make a comment on what I said about intent above.
Exactly Koko jan…
How can one deny all that evidence that was right in front of the eyes of so many.. .. so who killed all those innocent people? Did the Aliens land on the lands and had a strategy to attack Armenians and kill them all? How absurd one can be to say that Genocide did not happen Maybe the Turks were the Aliens themselves… after TRYING to complete their strategy of wiping an entire nation, they were called back by their leader in the Alien world…so they flew away to their distant planet and lived there since then… after many years of living in isolation, their offsprings decided to break away from this world and started to descend back to earth…but unfortunately their brain capacity was severly altered by their barbaric govt and all the memories were erased which is why so many believe the Genocide never happened and think that their motherland is not capable of such murder…well.. gone diggy dog… that explains it.. Geez..how can Armenians be soooooooo blind to blame Turkish govt for this cruel act?..seriously my TUrkish and Karekin friends…. lets end this ignorance already…it is laughable when such people say Armenians lie, Genocide was not perpetrated by the TUrkish govt, it is a myth, it is false.. i say those people are pathetic……
Oh please Ragnar.. you already burned your bridges with many here including myself who identified you as someone we can’t trust or rely on for so many reasons right from the very start… and then by your comments and actions you proved my identification of you to be valid..as many also noticed that…
You continue to say that Armenians do not know how to be nice or we don’t know how to communicate with you.. wow you sure are a piece of work..
Many tried to talk to you sir but you are unable to accept that simple gesture.. so spare me your ploys and your fake “i am noble, i follow the rules, i am not here to cause stir, i know my stuff, i know history and i know stats… i am a scientist and you need to listen to me..”…please.. get off your high horse.. .. …
Dialogue needs to be reciprocal Ragnar.. you can’t be pushing your point and ignore what we are giving you; which you have done majority of time….until you learn how to accept another point of view and drop your enqual scale mentality, don’t expect Armenians to believe your mumbo jumbo…no matter how much you think you are right..
I am sorry if I sound annoyed but we are tired of people like you who have no connection to history but yet s/he acts like historians or someone who knows or understands history..
Hopefully our dear Boyajian will be able to make you see clearly once and for all now that you want to communicate with her IF she does what you want her to do.. such a Turkish stance.. it is scary…but hoping it will be successful…but she has done a tremendous job already along with my other absolutely amazing friends here but we have not see any change in you… but can’t lose hope…
Good Day
Boyajian,
I’d humbly advise you not to respond to the chorus of RNs with their anti-Armenianness, because it appears to me from the discussion in “What Davutoghlu Fails to Understand” that he’s fishing for arguments that Armenians may have regarding the issue of genocidal intent. As you know, this is a cornerstone issue for the Turks in their denialist attempts. As we came to see, chorus of RNs may easily misinterpret your arguments in a Turkish forum or simply “sell” them to his Turkish buddies. Behold!
Murat,
I would like to know who “Murat” is. Thank you for acknowledging that your visits to these sites are nomadic. You have so far been hiding behind often repeated known Turkish denials. We have yet to get a glimpse of who you are inside. I would appreciate it if you shared your experiences growing up. You come across as a fairly intelligent person. When were you exposed to the history of the Anatolian Armenians? What questions did you wonder about growing up? Your posts only refute the historical facts that we bring up. But who are you inside? I wish we could communicate like human beings. I want you to know, that we do not hold anything personal against you or any contemporary Turk. We never asked for the Genocide to happen to our ancestors. We are stuck because the justice due to us is being denied. Boyajian and several others asked you what you thought “happened” to the Anatolian Armenians? A 2 to 2.5 million population in 1915 should have grown to almost 20 million by 2010. How come there are only 60 to 70,000 Armenians in Turkey now? We know what happened to them, because what happened to them happened to our grandmother, grandfather, mother, father, uncle and aunt. But I want to know what you were told or presume happened to them?
OK, Gayane, you write: Many tried to talk to you sir but you are unable to accept that simple gesture.. so spare me your ploys and your fake “i am noble, i follow the rules, i am not here to cause stir, i know my stuff, i know history and i know stats… i am a scientist and you need to listen to me..”…please.. get off your high horse.. .. …
comment: Honestly, Gayane, I really tried to answer questions! But on the other hand: Yes, I take that one about apparing as “noble”. I realize that this is how I appear to many in these discussions. I will try to make amends. But then of course we easily end up in the same corner again. So I wonder – what are we doing here? In a post of may 25 in the Davutoglu discussion you said that Murat has a “pea sized brain”. And still you react to him, talk to him. And he talks to you. Strange.
And then you say to me on may 28: in a way your comments sound intelligent but yet i feel and know you are someone who does not believe the Genocide happened and the reasons behind it……comment: you have said this to me many times: GENOCIDE HAPPENED, and I have said YES, but I say it in my way, with my qualifications. Then maybe we might discuss my qualifications, but we never achieve this. And if we never achieve it, what should we do? I say that the moral guilt of the ittihadists is overwhelming even if they were in a tight spot, that Turkey must acknowledge what happened, make repairs…..
If you feel that we cannot discuss this properly, should we say good bye and good luck to each others….or?
Katia, thank you such human inquiry. All of the questions about me you raised indicate your need for a civilized and personal exchange, instead of sniping and key-board jockeying, hidden behind anonimity. I surely would not mind it if we were sitting across a table, sipping kahve. That kind of personal exchange requires eye contact. I am not sure if it would work here.
I have actually shared more personal information here than I usually would have simply to show that others have family stories, histories and tragedies too. I am of the opinion that once we bring personal stories into an exchange, then objectivity goes out the door. There is no way to see (not justify) your or my grandparents horrible fates in a “big picture” perspective of history and events. Then how can one have a meaningful argument? The dialoge, as often it does here, turns into vent sessions, and sometimes into therapy. One can not really expect facts and truth matter that much in such settings. In fact, it does not, as Ragnar is still trying to learn.
Then the only solid reference left is the naked truth; not opinons, not interperatations, and not tribal or ethnic views and subjective values or moralizations from centuries away.
Contrary to common myth on these pages, average Turkish student rarely gets any exposure to Tehcir or Armenian history one way or another. That time period was so packed with wars and events that changed the course of global history and lives and futures of hundreds of millions of people in the region that frankly the tragedy of Armenians is only small footnote. I do not say this to be mean, but to give you an idea of the relative importance. There is no brain washing of this or that way on this topic in Turkish schools, it is not as if it is avoided intentionally either.
I do not mean to say there is no brain washing in Turkish text books and schools at all. Some of you know very well from personal experience that there is a heavy dose of nationalism and Kemalism infused in all such topics in Turkey.
Most of what I have learned on the details of this particular topic was learned later in life, and many times from non-Turksih sources. If you read enough, of either side and neutral sources, you get a picture. Not to mention, my family roots go back to Bitlis and grandpa was an Ottoman officer. So like most other Turks, I am not at the mercy of books and others, to be informed of what has happened in these lands.
The miracle of a Turkish Republic emerging from the ashes of WWI and Ottoman Empire is what dominates such topics in schools. What goes with it is unavoidably how the Great Powers for almost a century exploited ruthlessly the minorities (non-muslims and non-Turks would be a better term) in the Ottoman lands to tear apart not just the Ottoman Empire but also the society. This discourse has created much suspicion of all religious minorities and is responsible for the continued sensitivities on this topic. It is only within the last decade or so that Turkish nation seems to have found the self confidence to put such paranoia behind and put the gohsts of WWI and War of Independence to rest. It is a process and it wil take time, but direction is clear. As I mentioned before, this healing process has been greatly hamepred by the hate groups such as this and animosity that has surrounded Turkey and Turks from so many sides by people who are still fighting the wars of previous centuries.
Msheci, thank you for your advice. I have thought the same myself. But of course Ragnar was right about intent. I miscommunicated. What I meant was that the intent need not be proven with a document but can be determined from the result of policies instituted. All five of the subclauses of the definition apply to the Armenian situation:
The Convention defines genocide as any of a number of acts committed with the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group:
1. killing members of the group;
2. causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
3. deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
4. imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group,
5. and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
The genocidal results are clear. He doubts intent in the “upper echelons.” We don’t. You can not ‘accidentally’ wipe-out 1.5 million people. And the failure to prevent and prosecute those chettehs, irregulars, military personnel and private citizens responsible for massacres and other barbarous acts, is quite indicative of intent to permit harm, at the very least.
The Convention also declares that there shall be no immunity. Persons committing this crime shall be punished, whether they are constitutionally responsible rulers, public officials or private individuals.
Ragnar, as long as your work serves to confuse facts and stir up doubts in long accepted evidence, than I cannot view you as a friend of Armenians. I still don’t see how your work helps serve justice. Can you explain? Can you show that you have the necessary familiarity with the trauma of genocide on the Armenians to be an insightful commentator? To me, your work is not noble at all.
Ragnar,
I had earlier suggested that posters ignore you in the hope that you would afflict some other victimized group’s champions, but no such luck. You persist. As a result, I do too. I will ignore your pious, ill-informed inanities. You will not spit on my family.
If by the “juridical sense” you mean that the evidence of which you are aware in Oslo would not be sufficient to convict Talaat and other top state actors, on either the “clear and convincing” or “beyond a reasonable doubt” standards necessary to convict an individual leader in the dock, that’s merely your opinion as a non-lawyer and a non-historian, and a non-Ottomanist and a non-jurist.
It does not much matter to anyone what you think, apart from, perhaps your friends in the denialist community, whose intellectual initiation fees are remarkably low. The last Turk they lionized was a disbarred Arkansas lawyer, a Mr. Weems by name. It is colossally arrogant for a lay person posing on the fringes of the academy to assert that he finds the evidence inconclusive when he has no comprehensive knowledge of what the evidence is. It is more arrogant still for him to purport to tell Armenians which of their feelings and information are legitimate, and which among their remarks pass your standards.
Your position also lacks common sense.
If men in uniform, or under the control de facto or de jure of the state, kill Christian civilians everywhere in Anatolia and in the same ways, not to mention the Turkification and abduction of children, the presumption arises that they are under the control of the top leaders. Once this is established – and it is – the burden of proof is on the denialist to prove that they were not acting under orders, that the murder of 1.5M was a coincidence. The Turks have had a century to prove their case. They can’t.
The other flaw in what I will charitably call your thoughts, is the implied assertion that the standard of proof in history is the same as it is in a courtroom. Apart from the presumption to which I refer supra, responsible historians reach conclusions based upon a probability standard of proof that has nothing to do with the standard used in a courtroom. They may rely upon reliable hearsay and estimates as well as plain old common sense
Another point you post is something about the CUP being in a “tight spot.” If the CUP was in a tight spot, they had only themselves to blame for it. They did teach you at Quisling junior high that the CUP declared war on Russia, didn’t they? That was their choice. Irrespective of that, they did not have a warrant for Genocide. The “civil war” and “context” theses you seek to champion are intellectually bankrupt. Shall we also explain the context behind, and apologize for Hitler, Stalin and Quisling?
Murat, I will let Katia respond to your last comment since it was in response to her questions. But, I was hoping that you would say more about what you believe the truth is regarding what happened to the Armenians. Were you planning to say more?
Thank you for being candid and answering me Murat. Although, I could not help but feel a chill when you mentioned that your grandpa was an Ottoman officer…
My great grandparents and their youngest son were killed during the Genocide on my paternal grandmother’s side. My paternal grandpa’s uncles were killed at the outskirts of their village along with most of the other men, and his first born died of cholera because of the conditions on the deportation route. Chettehs attacked my grandparents and stole all their visible jewelry and gold. My grandfather was a fabric merchant. He lost a huge inventory of imported fabrics. They had a big house with a courtyard and stables. Turks went into their home and made it their own. I never saw that house… all the inheritance that should have been mine is evaporated, part of history. I don’t even have a picture of my great grandparents who were killed. Can you advise me as to how I can get compensated for what has been taken from me?
You said the Armenians were just a footnote. Now you know that that “footnote” had a population of over 2 million in Turkey, back when the Muslim population was about 10 to 12 million. Now you know that the six eastern provinces of Turkey belonged to Armenia, and were controlled and oppressed for 600 years under Ottoman rule. The European powers you are talking about meddled in response to our plees for reform and human rights, and ended up pursuing their interests instead. Do you wonder why all this huge history is omitted from your history book and made into a “footnote”?
Thank you again.
msheci
I am sorry that the two of us after such a long discussion still have this lack of confidence as a barrier between us. About intent, as I say, I firstly do not put so much importance on it as is done by those who try to act as would-be judges in a potential court case that never has materialized so far. I respect the reasons Armenians have to identify their catastrophy with that of the jews and other victims, but believe – respectfully – that this has been overdone.
To my mind the responsibility of the ittihadists for the mass death of Armenians is evident, and this is the basis for my solidarity together with the fact that Turks at large deny this, do not go into in in an honest way, and that consecutive Turkish governments fail to adress the question honestly.
I can imagine a lot of arguments for genocidal intent in the upper echelons of the ittihadists, and the genocide researchers have given some, although to my mind they mostly write as if the matter is already settled. But if I wanted new arguments, I would not look here in the debates in AW. Actually I am waiting for a publication by a genocide researcher that will categorically establish the fact that the allegations of Gürün and Halacoglu about more than a thousand muslims tried and punished for atrocities against Armenain deportees are false. The allegations recently appeared in “Turkish forum”(in Turkish) and I work on an answer.
So honestly, mscheci, do you really believe that I follow the debates here in order to catch arguments of this type? Are you sure you do not exaggerate the scope of conspiracies in these kinds of discussions and underestimate the fact of simple disagreement?
jda
I am sorry that you feel that I spit on your family. I would hope that you could accept me as somebody who feels solidarity with the Armenian cause, but who has a point of view that differs in some respects from the accepted view. But if this is not possible we should not discuss. Regarding my present posts they are comments to participants who seem to want to discuss with me despite our differences. As I have said I have learned a lot by these discussions, lastly from Gayane who explains – probably with some justification – that I appear as condescending and aloof in my insistence on “scientific reasoning”. I also learned a lot about how the reality of the genocide is a living reality among many Armenians. But I realize that many Armenians see my inputs in a negative light. I am sorry for this and hope that we eventually can remove misunderstandings and agree in mutual respect on what we agree on and what we disagree on.
Ragnar, maybe I am wrong, but it seems that you are the one that focuses on the ‘differences in opinion’ that you hold and spend very little time apeaking of your ‘solidarity with Armenians.’ It would be helpful if you could speak more about that solidarity and share your ideas about how you see a resolution to these issues. Drop the debate style and just share your thoughts…
boyajian
you write:
Ragnar, as long as your work serves to confuse facts and stir up doubts in long accepted evidence, than I cannot view you as a friend of Armenians.
comment:
But I do not accept the premise. If people pursue a just cause with questionable evidence, is it not right that a friend points to the questionability of the evidence? I pointed to this in our previous discussion on the Davutoglu article. In a debate with msheci I said that he should not refer to the Andonian papers or the mevlanzade Rifat book or the “Ten commandments” as all these alleged ev eidence is highly questionable. He disagreed and said that he regarded the Andonian papers as corroborative evidence. I disagreed. Maybe I am wrong regarding the Andonian papers, but please dont change the subject to be one about whether the Andonian papers are authentic or not. My question is: should not a friend mention it if he believes that people with a just cause use questionable arguments? I am of course willing to answer your other questions, but can we adress this theme first?
Ragnar, of course advice from a friend is welcome. But the friend must also be humble enough to realize that others may see things differently and interpret facts differently.
Boyajian
so this means that you – and other Armenians in the discussion – experience that I am not humble enough so that it appears that I do not realize that others may see things differently? Is that so?
Ragnar,
Get over yourself. You have more than ample reason to do so. Stop lumping Armenians together as if they are part of a monolith. Stop referring the evidence showing Genocide as if it is something only Armenians cite.
When you can’t deal with a fact or an argument, you talk about manners. Deal with the facts or deal with another site. I have ut several facts and sources before you, and you ignore each in favor of talking about manners.
I will not judge you Ragnar, I don’t know you. These are website relations between unknown and hidden individuals, and can never qualify as friendships. But as a general rule, when one speaks with more authority than he has a right to or commanding more respect than he has earned, than his contribution may be taken with question and suspicion. Also Ragnar, the Turkish response to the AG has been anything but open and direct; it has been devious in its efforts to deny and distort and to manipulate scholarship and politics regarding its recognition. Don’t underestimate the impact of this on the victims of such great loss and the defensiveness it instills in the face of those who would deny our reality. You clearly have read a lot, but you have much to learn about this group you are trying to relate to and the group that denies history.
Something to think about: At the time of the AG and shortly after, before the creation of the term ‘genocide,’ no one doubted the enormity of the crime against the Armenians. Numerous countries spoke of the horrendous devastation to a nation, the unspeakable inhumanity to man and established relief efforts. The world attempted to right this wrong through the provisions of the Treaty of Sevres which would have established a sovereign nation for Armenians and would have held Turkey responsible for the destruction. In those days, even Turkey participated in the attempt to hold court martials to punish those who were guilty. Eye-witness and newspaper accounts, as well as diplomatic dispatches attest to a common world view of the enormity of the devastation to the Armenian nation.
Then Turkey dodged a bullet with the Treaty of Lausanne and got away with the murder of a nation. The events in Russia, and other geopolitical concerns arose and the world regrouped around a new drama. Justice for Armenians took a back burner, while Turkey focused on its latest incarnation as a new Republic. Soon amnesia for the AG set in in Turkish society as Turks busied themselves with a new ‘modern’ identity and re-established relations with other countries as a ‘new’ Turkey.
But this amnesia never set in for Armenians. We lacked the leadership and strength as a devastated and starving nation, then under soviet domination, and with great numbers of our people dispersed in other countries, to mount any kind of a fight for justice. We were focused on surviving and building new homes wherever we found ourselves. But we never forgot. Our grandparents and parents passed the awful legacy down to us along with stories of Armenia’s place in world history. We were schooled in who we are as a people and what was taken from us by those who wanted the land we occupied, while Turkey erased us and our remnants from her memory and her landscape.
Turkey may reject the truth like an aging movie starlet who catches a glimpse of her reflection under the bright lights of the camera set and cringes at what she sees. And like the aging starlet, who demands she only be filmed from her ‘good side’ or only under diffused lighting, Turkey tries to control what others say and see about her, preserving an image and avoiding the truth. But truth is truth and no amount of make-up can put a pretty face on this one. And Armenians are here to hold up a mirror to Turkey and the world to remember that justice has not yet been done.
Boyajian
thank you for your exposition even if it does not answer my questions. The historical exposition you give does not adress the main points we have discussed. I cannot see anything in it that I disagree with. About anonymity, that is your choice. You know who I am, may know my name and adress and postion, even my CV. A participant here even named a seminar I attended in the USA where two quite prominent Armenian scholars who confirm the AG attended. You had ample reason to form an opinion on my sincerity – based on sources I believe you would trust if you had wanted to investigate this, but as you say – “Don’t underestimate the impact of this on the victims of such great loss and the defensiveness it instills in the face of those who would deny our reality”. Secondly, I believe on can learn a lot from listening to the opinions of others and from arguing – without raising the issue of trust. I believe it was Gayane who said “we cannot rely on you”. For me this is puzzling since I never aspired to more than simply to make a dialogue with people I feel I should address if I want to address the problem of the dishonesty and biased perceptions of the Turks and Turkey, that is a dialogue with the descendants of the victims.
I believe you and I see things very differently, and also judge our dialogue differently. But, so be it, I will not repeat my arguments. I only wish you luck since I see your inputs in these dialogues as constructive.
jda
I believe I was rightly warned about you by others in this dialogue forum. You write: I will ignore your pious, ill-informed inanities”.
Well, for heavens sake, DO it!
What I want to ask the Turkish efendis who call themselves historians the following questions as I am trying to understand:
Did Kemal Ataturk invent the Bacha Bazi party?
Did he die of Aids? Syphillis?
If no to any of these questions, then can you prove it by historical facts? I think these questions should be left to debate.
jda: “They did teach you at Quisling junior high that the CUP declared war on Russia, didn’t they? – LOL
KS: “Did Kemal Ataturk invent the Bacha Bazi party? Did he die of AIDS? Syphilis?” – LOL
Ragnar I believe I answered your questions.
In your last comment to me you say you are looking for simple dialogue. I think your idea of simple dialogue is very contentious. It seems to me that you come to this site to discuss issues having already made up your mind and looking to argue with Armenians about issues you disagree with. It is a set up! You don’t really intend to learn something new, but seem mostly interested, like Karekin, in instructing others. I am saying you do not humbly consider the Armenian viewpoint as valid before you try convincing Armenians that we need to handle Turkey with acquiescence and concur that Turks suffered too. Yes they did, but this suffering was mostly their own making and provides no justification for the suffering imposed on Armenians.
You say you want to address the problem of dishonesty and biased perception with the descendants of the AG victims. This statement alone is objectionable to me because in it you reveal your bias that we are dishonest and not that we see things differently from Turks. Maybe you are dishonest. You say you want simple dialogue but you posit the discussion as an argument from the get-go. You seek to debate with people who are not genocide scholars but simply Armenians who want justice for their nation, about arguments regarding authenticity of documents and some obscure historian’s assertion.
You see us as biased. I don’t doubt that we see things from our very personal point of view! I see you as the biased third party who fails to reserve judgment until he has completed his research from both points of view. You don’t need to pretend that you are here to ‘get to know Armenians’, when the truth seems to be that you simply want to change our thinking according to your Turkophilic bias. You are entitled to your opinion but don’t be surprised that we don’t appreciate when you drag dirt into the house when you visit.
Kaisar, the original roots of “Bacheh Baz” as a verb, means “pedophile”, came from Persian words into Turkish, and became a custom in Turkish life style and was a common practice in Ottoman Sultanate, and higher class people.. “bacheh Bazi” in Turkey is a secret act within some communities and within Turkish bath goers, (hammams) as an entertainment , where a young male dance, for sexually attracted male bathers!!
In today’s Iran the use of “Bacheh Baz” word, has an extreme bad meaning toward a person who act something “crazy” in public, regardless of the person is a pedophile or not!!
boyajian
I wrote: I want to address the problem of the dishonesty and biased perceptions of the Turks and Turkey
Comment: What I want to say in this connection is that most Turks and especially the Turkish state have a biased and dishonest perception of what happened to Armenians. This is the problem I want to adress. I did not talk about Armenians. Strange misunderstanding!! To my mind this was to be clear, but I see it can be misdunderstood. what I talked about is Turkish biasedness and the dishonesty of the Turkish state. Apart from this I believe I mostly answered questions here about my opinions, and then I shared them. I never insisted on defending points of view that you disagreed with.
I mean I never insisted IN THE FIRST PLACE on defending points of view that you disagree with. However it was inevitable from the first debate in the “Davutoglu debate” when I raised the question of what was to become of the muslim majority in the six vilayets. A very relevant question to my mind. And then of course I answer with what I have read. your first post to me on may 25 read:
Ragnar Naess, thanks for the input. You’ll have to explain what was problematic in my comments to Murat.(RN: you had said: Murat, I feel a strange combination of anger and pity for you) I don’t know what you are referring to.
Also, please clarify your comments regarding the dilemma the CUP faced from the “Dashnaks trying to liberate the six vilayets in an area that was mainly muslim”.
So I answered, and from this time the main feature of our discussion seem to have been determined: I am asked about my opinions, I then answer, and then I am attacked for these opinions. We probably both have a role in perpetuating this pattern. I tried to change the subject by pointing to my work in Amnesty International and my discussions with Turks in which I challenge their views, but this was in vain. Armenians in the discussion insisted on seeing me as an enemy. Is this fair?
Apart from this I dont think it is right to say that we should come here to learn. If it means that some Armenians should teach – assume the role of teachers – and not the opposite. But then you dont intend this probably. Second I have learned a lot, both about the way the AG still is a living reality for many Armenians, but also by understanding the totality of the views of many Armenians, how it connects together in a whole. Thirdly about certain authors like de Zayas and Robertson and events like the Salonici conclave. I wish I had had the time to go deeper into this. So it is simply not true that I only came to instruct and not to learn. But my main feeling is still, sorry to say it, that you are not ready to relate to divergent opinions in a constructive way
Ragnar, I see you feel misunderstood. Syntax is important and sometimes tricky in translation. I truly thought you were saying that you wanted to talk to Armenians about their bias and dishonesty in regards to Turks.
I have to say that the fact that you were surprised by how much the AG is still a living reality for Armenians is very revealing to me about how much you don’t yet understand about genocide, the Armenian genocide and about Armenians. 100 years out of a 3-4 thousand year history is a blink of time. You cannot erase the love of land and the sense of belonging, or the longing for what was lost from such an ancient culture in such a brief time. Also, if your main contact with Armenians has been with Turkish Armenians than you have a limited view of the Armenian identity. Turkish Armenians are raised not to be too Armenian outside of their homes, to fit in and be good Turks. Diasporan Armenians, from whom the Armenian Weekly is generated, are raised to cling to their Armenianness and their faith while being good citizens of their adopted countries, to remember their obligation to the martyrs and to SURVIVE despite the Turkish wish that we fade away like ‘a footnote in history.’
There is a pulse on that land that beats in time with the Armenian heart, each stone is our touchstone, and when that stone is the remnant of an ancient church or khatchkar (carved stone cross) it is the passage way of our souls to heaven. Turks may have ruled the land for six hundred years but they were never its owner.
You don’t know us until you know this.
Also, Ragnar, I believe we all may have something to learn. I definitely have learned more about the Turkish point of view and how they see themselves as victims. I don’t see any justification for what they did, nor do I forgive them for a crime they have yet to repent for. I do not hold the average Turk responsible for what happened in the past, but I do hold their government and paid cronies responsible for distortion of the truth that denies my grandparents their history. This is a living and ongoing crime, Ragnar, not just events from the past.
Ragnar, or maybe we should call you Sam for Sam Weems,
I address your comments because you pose as an academic. Because even here, even now, each denialist remark you post is one more spadeful of earth heaped upon 1.5M dead bodies. Denial is the final stage of Genocide, and by that standard you commit it here, with your use of “the juridical sense.” At a time in life when most men deservedly are retired, you have made Genocide denial and obfuscation a new hobby.
By doing so, you give yourself a credential you don’t deserve. I address you with factual comments and questions which should challenge you to learn and respond. Your repeated failures to address these remarks shows that you know very little. All you do is comment about postings and make yourself a center of attention.
Your latest remark is that “Armenians” overstate the similarities between the Holocaust and the AG. Who are these Armenians, and in what ways do they overstate the similarities?
As the offspring of German Jews and Armenians, I think the similarities are striking, as did Lemkin. Both states even charged the victims for the costs of killing them.
Defend your remark. We both know you can’t.
Ragnar, I am becoming self-conscious about directing so many comments to you, but I must say that the second of your last three posts directed to me, was very confusing. I didn’t really understand if you wanted me to respond to something in it. I take from it that you feel that you were misunderstood from the beginning. As for my comment about Murat, you are the one who began our exchange by criticizing my honest comments to him. You set the tone, from my point of view, that the poor Turk (Murat) was in need of defense (by you) from an attack by an overly aggressive Armenian (me). For me, we never got far from this theme.
jda
maybe I was too harsh with you. About the questions you ask of me, I certainly can try to answer them. If I am right is of course another thing. But I felt that you from the start when you adressed me had an opinion of me that did not invite dialogue. You started adressing me on september 9, and concluded with the following words that “…if you are here in good faith, which you are not…..”. Now I feel I am here in good faith, and I believe in the effects of endurance in dialogue, but when you started to adress me in this way, it is a mystery for me why you adress me any more, if it is not to try to chase me away by abuse. Then on september 11 you start a new post with the words “your incessant pedantry is a bore” and you recommend that other participants should not relate to me.
Do you really expect me to discuss with somebody that uses this kind of language? Then later you checked out my position at the university of Oslo and found out that I was only a non-tenured lecturer. Who will enter a discussion with an adversary who behaves in this way? But of course I see the arguments you mention regarding genocidal intent in the leading cadres of the ittihadists. You mention the work battallions and the murdering of the disarmed Ottoman christian soldiers (I have roughly read what Bloxham and Zurcher write about this). You mention the book of Nogales and the testomony of Vehip Pasha at the court martials 1919-32. The facts you indicate can indeed be taken as arguments for geocidal intent. If you really want to discuss this question I am ready, but we would have to agree on some rules of debate first. But then i cannot imagine that you are ready for this. Maybe I am wrong but we should agree on some rules, the first one being to stop throwing diagnoses and invectives at each others. Only arguments should count. Do you agree in this?
Boyajian
you are right that I have not understood the implications of the way in which Diaspora Armenians experience the AG as a living reality. If I ever start a discussion like this again, I will try to do it in another way. You have given several valuable suggestions. About the start of our discussion in may – yes, I feel that we got on the wrong track from the start, and I believe we must share the responsibility for this. But again I wish you luck. I would like to take a pause in these debates, unless jda wants a dialogue on the terms I outlined.
Ragnar, God’s will to you, too. Enjoy your pause and if we encounter each other again, I hope it will be with a better understanding.
On that note,
I would like to share this passage from Peter Balakian’s “Black Dog of Fate” The passage is about Peter’s great uncle, Bishop Grigoris Balakian’s testimony during Soghomon Tehlerian’s trial in Germany in 1921. Tehlerian was the Armenian student who had lost all of his family during the Genocide and ended up assassinating Talaat. Bishop Balakian was one of the first 250 Armenians who were arrested on April 24th 1915, and one of the few who had survived from that group. He testified during the Tehlerian trial. I am guessing that this information can also be verified in the German national archives.
Witness Balakian: (speaking of his deportation march)… when we came to the bloodiest city, Yozghat, we saw a couple thousand skulls of women and young girls in a gorge… With us was a police captain, Shukri, who had led us (we were 48 men and 16 police officers on horseback). I asked him whether it was true that only men were being killed… “If we only killed the men,” he replied, “and not the women and children, then, 50 years from now, we would have a couple million Armenians. So we also have to kill the women and children; thus we will no longer have an external or an internal problem”… I asked the captain why such things had been done. He explained that if the women and children were exterminated in the cities, then we would never be able to find out where they had hidden their gold and other valuable possessions. That is why we allowed them to pack all their valuables. I asked the captain if he had any regrets. I asked him whether or not he felt responsible to answer to God… The captain replied that he felt no responsibility whatsoever. He was only obeying orders given to him from Constantinople. He indicated that he was only a captain and has been ordered to kill everyone because a “Holy War” had been declared.
Von Gordon(defense authorny): When you were in Changre, did you go to the Vali with one of your professors and did you request him to do something on your behalf? Did he not show you a telegram that he had received from Talaat Pasha asking him a certain question?
Witness Balakian: One day when I was with Mr. Diran Kelekian, the editor of the Turkish newspaper Sabahand a professor at the Turkish University in Constantinople, he asked me, “would you like to go with me and visit the Vice governor, Assaf Bey?” We then went to Assaf Bey… We asked him what we could do to get to Constantinople. He said, “My dear professor, whatever you want to do, do it. Do it quickly; otherwise it will be too late.” We naturally asked him why it would be too late. Assaf Bey replied..:”You are my teacher (Mr. Kelekian) and you (turning to me) are a clergyman, you can keep the secret. I trust you!” He showed us a telegram which I read. I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of a telegram shown to me by the Vice-governor. The telegram read:”Telegram us directly and immediately the exact figure of how many Armenians have been killed and how many are still alive. Minister of Interior Talaat.” At first, I was unable to comprehend the meaning of the telegram as I could not imagine that a whole nation would be massacred. No such thing had happened before in history. Mr. Kelekian asked the Bey the meaning of the telegram. He replied, “You are supposed to be intelligent. You are an editor-in-chief. The Telegram means: Why are you waiting? Kill them all.”
Juror: What signature was on the telegram?
Witness Balakian: The telegram was signed “Talaat.”
My dear Boyajian and straight talker jda,
My hat’s off to you! Your last posts were brilliant! They summarized the chronological metamorphosis of the AG from a well known atrocity that shocked the world when it first happened to a deep secret well buried under indecent political dealings and illegal treaties. For 95 years, the government of Turkey had the luxury of burning telegrams, letters, books, articles and Tribunal trial documents, concocting all sorts of stories aimed at blurring history to specifically make the “genocidal intent” “questionable”, all in the effort to evade the “bullet” as Boyajian so eloquently put it. As we came to know, this elaborate distortion has worked very well with new comers and wannabe scholars. I think we have shown great restraint listening to ridiculous allegations of “questionable evidence” and “insufficient juridical proof of genocidal intent”, while the voices, memories and experiences of our grandparents ring in our heads and the accounts of their lands, homes, assets remain inheritances written on the wind. It is truly naive and irresponsible to look at allegations having to do with a crime of this magnitude at face value and not question the “intention” behind these allegations. The intention behind this cover up is very clear to us: the Republic of Turkey was built on the ashes of the Armenian nation, population and culture. It was funded by the Armenian population’s confiscated bank accounts, life insurances, homes, businesses, farms, lands, treasures, gold and jewelry. It was extended on a land that was Armenian for 3,000 years. And while Turks held their breath waiting for the wrath of the world, Ataturk managed to side sweep the imminent “destruction” of Turkey by his political dealings and concessions to the leading countries of the world. The massacre of 1.5 million civilians went unpunished. Their assets and their ancestral land were left to their murderer. Chruches were converted to mosques, the “ian”s were taken off of the Armenian surnames, and a whole culture was erased. “Turkey for the Turks” emerged as the Republic of Turkey. This “literal getting away with murder” is what the Turks call “their miracle” (as Murat put it). This is why Ataturk is worshiped in Turkey. And this is why Turkey does not want to admit to the Genocide. By the way, let us not forget that the Armenians were not the only people massacred by the Ottomans. We should also mention the Assyrians and Greeks, and later the Kurds… basically whomever has claims for ancestral homes in the once Ottoman empire.
Dear Boyajian and jda,
Hokinit sirem, as marten vaz antsek! “I will have dialogue with you on the terms that I outlined” does not invite free discussion, it only controls a discussion and confines it to the agenda of the person outlining the terms … my thoughts of course.
This conversation brings into light the danger of man created obstructable “legalities” and imperfect “theories” taking over for the “common sense”. Other than that it has often reminded me of the famous Armenian saying: No matter how hard you beat water, it stays water.
Katia K,
Shad shnoragalyem.
Ragnar,
You can respond factually or otherwise as you wish to the few [of many] facts I and others have posted, perhaps starting with defending your claim about “the juridical sense” which I discussed a few days ago.
I make no apology and I agree to no ground rules. I will deal with your claims factually and analytically, and I will not resist ridicule where you deserve it. You pose as a lofty academic when you are not one, and you occasionally drop an academic name to impress as if you are part of the club. You are instead a wretched fraud. And that’s before we look at your vicious anti-Armenianism.
You can start showing good faith by dropping the Turkish stance of portraying the Genocide as merely something Diasporans assert.
jda
I dont have time for more posts of the type you have produced so far. Unless we agree on certain premises for the debate we will get nowhere. There will be no way to prove the other one wrong or substantialize assertions. A sensible start will be to agree on some tenets of historical method. At least as a start we must roughly specify some requirements of historical method. Do you agree on this?
Apres JDA jan.. shat apres…
Not sure if I did not click send or somehow my comment got lost but in there I said that I dont’ care what Ragnar said but what I think of him remains as is.. and i am not going to apologize for it…i say it how i see it and what i see i dont’ like.. at least not the fake Ragnar…
Also Ragnar is very meticilous as he uses lines from other posts that everyone of us commented… it is a bit weird that he keeps a file on each of our comments and picks and chooses very short and specific words from an entire comment to use for his advantage.. but then again we already know how it works…
Ragnar I still think you are a deniar of The Genocide so stop trying to convnice me otherwise.. i wish and i hope that what you represent is neutral and your goal is to normalize and make things better for Armenians when it comes to Turks but please.. who are you kidding?
Apres Katia jan.. yes qo tsavt tanem… well said..
Gayane
Katia, thanks for the Balakian excerpt. It is sad that with so much evidence which was known from the beginning, we have to face doubts and denials and demands for historical commissions to ‘find’ the truth.
All our discussions are there, Gayane, in the right column on the frontspiece of AW, under the heading ” commented”. And sice I am continuously being asked about my opinions and what I have said it is only natural that I go back to look at what has been said, isnt it? As I also have said many times I have learned a lot from it.
To avoid any misunderstanding or more wild attempts to portray me as something I am not, like jda has repeatedly done so far but hopefully will abstain from now when he purports to deal with facts and analysis, I want to repeat that my point of departure has been – and is – my concern with human rights in Turkey. Turkey’s failure to go into the reality of the crimes of the ittihadists and the appalling consequences for Ottoman Armenians is a very important part of Turkey’s problems. As Akcam says, Turkey can never be truly democratic unless Turks go into this dark period in an honest and comprehensive way. Yersterday I posted a letter with a commentary to an interview with Mehmet Fatih Öztarsu who is working on reconciliation between Turkey and Armenia and who was interviewed in an Armenical periodical “Sobesednik”. The interview is reprinted in a Turkish version in “Turkish Forum” on october 4 with the title
Ermeni medyasinda ’müslüman soykirim yapmaz’ röportaji,
When asked about the Armenian Genocide by the Armenian interviewer, he gave one of the typical answers frm Turks who are very far for handling this in a satisfactory way. He used a lot of space to talk about the old friendship between Armenians and Turks, a strange way to answer an accusation about murder. Then he mentioned the allegations of Armenians collaborating with the Russians and the need to “remove them from the dangerous war zone”, as if it was some kind of humanitarian action. I wrote that this is totally inadequate as an answer, and in order to try to start a debate and hopefully have some impact I pointed 1) to the fact of Armenians being deported from all parts of Anatolia, nor only the war zones. I mentioned Eskisehir as an example, a city with a very small Armenian population, a population with no record of any rebellion or revolutionary actiuvity, 2) the admission of Talaat that those who committed atrocities were hardly tried and punished at all. What does this say about the intent of the government, I asked. I believe it is important that Turks are confronted by outsiders, and that it is done in the form of dialogue where they are challenged to relate to the facts and interpretations of the outside world.
However, I am waiting for an answer from jda, to see if we can develop a meaningful exchange of arguments.
I agree with Ragnar that it is important that Turks are challenged by non-Armenians as well (thank you), when they make distorted claims about the Genocide and promote the typical propaganda line of removing Armenians from a war zone. That is the reason that AG recognition work is important. Unfortunately, 95 years later, the message still has to get out there so that Turkey can’t just sweep it under the rug, twist the truth, and turn Ottoman Armenian history into a ‘footnote.’ Karekin has some great points about trying to connect in meaningful ways with everyday Turks to stimulate internal change, but the work of challenging the government position and creating external pressure is also needed.
Thank you Ragnar for taking the steps to question a Turk. even though the arguments the Turk presented were,, i believe, the same arguments you presented here on our forums.. no? .
However, with this, you are now portraying a different stand of it and tilted a bit more toward the Armenians….
I am still not 100% convinced and I still believe you are an enigma…..
However, can you provide us the link to this “turkish forum” that you commented on? did you write your comment in Turkish or English? I would like to read it myself if you dont’ mind.
Ragnar,
Take refuge wherever you wish: in the “crass anti Turkishness” of Armenian posters, in your nonexistent qualifications, in my poor manners insufficient to placate an Orientalist. You don’t need my agreement to answer my criticisms, no matter how long you delay, no matter how many phony objections you post.
You said that you were warned about me. You were warned by a Turk poser who hates Armenians. Heed the warnings. As long as you post lies and diversions, I will come after you.
jda,
We’ve been engaged in a lengthy discussion with the chorus of RNs with their anti-Armenianism in “What Davutoghlu Fails to Understand.” Based on it I’d humbly advise you not to open up another debate that’d substantialize your assertions. I have serious doubts that the chorus of RNs may use sources, references, and quotations that you’d offer only to strengthen the denialist counterarguments of the Turks. Note the recently changed, more pro-Armenian, tone. Thought-provoking, isn’t it?
gayane
the link is
http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/tr/content/2010/10/04/ermeni-medyasinda-%e2%80%98musluman-soykirim-yapmaz%e2%80%99-roportaji/
you will find my comment below. I write in Turkish since this is the way to reach the most traditional Turks I believe. My Turkish is not perfect but it should be understandable. But I will also write in english when there are relevant articles in English
The man I adress says very different things from what I have been saying, Gayane
Msheci and Gayane are right that Ragnar swings back and forth between tilting toward Turks and then toward Armenians. No wonder it is hard to know who we are talking to and what he is all about. We have spent a lot of energy trying to sort it all out with him and what do we really know?
jda, you are a wonderful defender of our cause. Use your energy well.
Ragnar.. you must know Turkish very well to be able to read all that in the article and then post your comment. I am sure you don’t know Armenian right? Too bad.. Maybe you need to spend few years living in Armenia and study there like you did in Turkey..You did live in Turkey correct?
I would like to see your comments about Anti-Armenianness from the Turks side and you condeming them as you do to the Armenians for being “Anti-Turkishness”… In our previous posts on different topics we asked you to direct us to such Turkish forums where you commented … do you have any examples of those?
Msheci du chisht es.. ayo… arten erevuma te inch dzevi marta es mer xpnvatsa…dodosha..inch anun asem vor iran lav nkaragri… de arten gites…
JDA.. qefs galisa qo gratsnerits… huysov em im gratsa haskanum ems..:)
Gayane
Dear jda,
I am confident that you can fend for yourself just fine, but for the record, I want to second Msheci’s thoughts about indulging Ragnar’s need of debating an established historical fact. His intentions have become even more questionable in light of his comments on the Turkish sites. Although he argues a storm about our style of debating he has failed to articulate what exactly and specifically we are debating about. Out of respect, we first attempted to furnish him with reputable sources, quotes and citations, but we soon realized that he was not interested in the thousands of authentic incriminating testimonies and acclaimed work. To our dismay his comments mirrored the state funded aggressive denial and cover up allegations that Turkey is engaged in and is spending millions on. The millions have also bought unethical academics and historians such as Lowry willing to utilize academics to discredit the witnesses of the time, to call the Armenian experience a lie and the written testimonies and documents forgeries. This denial falls in line with the classic psyche of an abuser who having gotten away with years of unchecked abuse resorts to practiced tactics of cheating his way out of punishment by first saying that his victim is lying, then making her testimony questionable by discrediting her and claiming her documents to be forgeries, then saying she brought all this on to herself, and finally by enforcing amnesia with a silent treatment. There were many pointed questions and valuable citations that I addressed to Ragnar in a recent post and he has been giving me the silent treatment. Better yet, instead of answering my questions he insinuated that he is “not responding to certain individuals who are not being respectful”. Well that’s a cowardly stance. If you can’t answer questions do not resort to attacking the person making them. Face the facts, face the questions. By the way, respect is earned, and reducing a serious crime to an academic pass time and engaging the victim party in conversations questioning the veracity of their claim is not only indecent, it is cruel. I also noticed that when facing the danger of losing his audience Ragnar does a 360 and throws in comments he knows we want to hear in order to keep us in this ridiculous discussion.
Turkey can pay millions to lure wannabe scholars to cover up and distort the Genocide, but it cannot hide the 1.5 million skeletons in its closet.
This cruel denial not only is not allowing the relationship between the perpetrator of the crime and the victim to ease into a civilized relatioship by allowing both parties to have mental and spiritual closure, it points to the lack of conscience of the Turkish state.
Katia jan,
you are so right about the fact that “when facing the danger of losing his audience Ragnar does a 360 and throws in comments he knows we want to hear in order to keep us in this ridiculous discussion.” I noticed that, too.
Of course he does… which is why i always question his motives… but he does not like it and he would not talk to me unless I say something he may find a bit favorable for him…i am on his black list..right Ragnar??
It simply a ungoing motion of comments over comments that are sooo confusing that sometimes I had to look away..this goes to Karekin too….these two men truly give me motion sickness…cant figure them out…
Gayane
Gayane, sometimes you are just so funny!
I agree it is very funny. you are simply programmed som that you cannot realize that you are looking for enemies and if you dont find them, you invent them. I started collecting all my statements in the Davutoglu debate where I confirm 1)the catastrophy that befell the Armenians was by far much greater that the ones that befell other groups, 2)<Turkey is denying this, 3)Turkey should go into the question honestly, 4) Turkey should make repairs. So I never changed my basic attitude. But then of course msheci started pestering me on “WHAT CRIME”. And it appeared that we disagreed on one point. You faithfully steared into the areas where we disagreed, that is faithful to a philosophy of “nobody understands us! We are surrounded by enemies! Those who pretend they are friends are in reality Turkish agents!”.
Mersi Boyajian jan…:) inch anem???.. try to keep it silly sometimes before i give myself a stroke cause of them two plus the other stooges who raise our blood pressure..
Glad to have you on our team to keep things cool and under control…you have the patience and that is great…glad to have a balance in our group..:)
G
Great to hear from you Gina!
Gayane, you are hilarious… I love the way you lighten things up with your sense of humor…
Boyajian… always eloquent and classy…
Ragnar,
You should use your cognitive wattage by addressing your argument to a more fitting target, Turkish nationalists. In Turkey, minority Christians for well over a century have been depicted by the state and its willing fascist followers as the agents of foreign powers. This is known as Sevres syndrome. It is not an affliction Armenians have. We don’t view you as a Turkish agent. As far as your writings go, you do fall into line with many propagandistic points our enemies make. If the Turkish slipper fits, wear it.
You are free to express your opinions, but they are poorly constructed and offered to promote you to a hostile audience, whose generosity and patience you have taxed. Maybe you can plague the Tamils, Cambodians or Darfurians on their websites.
Ragnar,
I agree that you made the Armenian-slanted statements you mention above several times. These statements along with your provocative comment regarding what Armenians would have done to Muslims had they been in control in the villayets after the Treaty of Sevres; as well as your careless characterization of AW commentators in Today’s Zaman as ‘expressing crass anti-turkishness which is rarely challenged’; your general tendency to insert doubt about intent in the upper echelons of the CUP; all presented to a pro-Armenian diasporan website chat group, have created the image of a confused or confusing person with ambiguous motives. Sorry.
Sorry also if this has been unfair to you. Sorry if you inadvertently stepped into a wasp nest because you were naive to the strong present day component of residual pain of the AG in Armenians. Sorry if sometimes language translation problems were an issue. Sorry that you are not aware that you have let yourself become biased by some of the clever denialists out there and some of the anti-Armenian propaganda promoted by Turkey. Sincerely.
But mostly I am sorry that the Armenian nation still has to fight for the justice that is unquestionnably due her.
Why have Armenians lowered ourselves to debating the Armenian Genocide with Turkish denialists? The only thing you have accomplished in this forum, is that you have given the efendis more circular arguments to throw at you for you to chase your tails on.
Instead of debating, you should be putting pressure on ANCA to dig up the bones in Der Zhor so that we can get our genetic information back and see how they died. Were they burnt alive? Were they butchered? Were they shot (doubtful)? Were they starved to death? As of right now, we don’t have any information on our great grandparents. We should be thinking about a genetic database for all Armenians. With today’s computers, that shouldn’t be to hard to accomplish.
You should also be putting pressure on Armenian Supermarkets to stop selling Turkish goods (Jon’s). You should be spending your time more productively instead of wasting it with these scum.
kiazer Souze
Well, Sassounian wants to target a denialist agency, the Turkish government’s web on historical matters. I only hope he will do it with arguments. The idea is good, but then you have to argue with a denialist about the Armenian Genocide.
Boyajian
I will not repeat our disagreements. Wish you luck!
“…minority Christians for well over a century have been depicted by the state and its willing fascist followers as the agents of foreign powers (a little bit of historical truth alas!). This is known as Sevres syndrome (more truth). It is not an affliction Armenians have.”
(He speaks for all Armenians we suppose!)
And then this gem, right next line:
“As far as your writings go, you do fall into line with many propagandistic points our enemies make.”
Nope. No syndromes here! His superior genes guarantee it!
I agree with KS. At the very minimum, ANCA and other Diasporan groups and groups from the Republic should have entered negotiations with the Syrian government to have a monument erected in Deyr Zor, a dessert where Turks burnt alive and starved to death hundreds of thousands of Armenians. Long overdue!
Ragnar (if that is your name),
What in the world did you try to say? I didn’t understand your point? Are you really a historian? Did you say it in gibberish? You need to move on and accept the fact that your grandparents were rapists and murders. The same with you Murat.
KZ,
Ragnar is a Norwegian. He uses his real name.
KS.. Unfortunately Ragnar is not a Turk…part of me wished he was cause then i would say he does not know..but he is from Norway and he knows very well what happened but he is taking and protecting the Turkish side of matters…
Yes it is unfortunate..but that is the truth..
Murat… all i can say is WOW.. you never cease to surprise me with your Anti-Armenian comments…
G
Kiazer Souze
I believe what I wrote was obvious, but I’ll try to clarify
you wrote:
Why have Armenians lowered ourselves to debating the Armenian Genocide with Turkish denialists?
It seems you will never debate with what you call denialists. Now Sassounian wants to sue Turkey or accuse Turkey of lies in their official wesites regarding the events of 1915. To my mind this is a good idea. He may of course do it but if he doesnt ARGUE, also arguing back if the Turkish authorities argue, it makes no sense to accuse them. I believe he must debate, as we understood the word. So with all due respect your comment doesnt make sense.
The first thing I want to address is the naivete of some of the Armenians on this blog. Why in the world would you discuss or test the veracity of your grandparents memories with Turkish paid scum when 99.9999% of world genocide scholars (those that have credentials and well respected) have concluded that it was Genocide? Do you really think that Turkish paid scum are going to come around to a discussion with scholars? No, they would rather have discussions with ordinary people so they can plant their poisonous seeds of doubt (further completing the genocide). Interestingly, I have tried to post a lot stronger comments but, unfortunately, I have been censored so that armenian weekly can facilitate the completion of the Turkish government’s work in finalizing the Genocide.
Don’t forget that Armenia and Turkey signed the protocols on condition that there would be no preconditions (Armenia would not demand that Turkey recognize the Genocide before signing and Turkey would not demand return of liberated Armenian territories to Azerbadeljanis). The Turks have reneged on their agreement and instead are attempting these kinds of discussions in order to finish up on the Genocide. Just think what they would do when you open a discussion on Kemal Ataturk and his dark and ugly past.
I would say to you all, spend your valuable time and resources in digging up the bones of our ancestors, recognizing our cultural contributions in the United States and the rest of the world and giving the proverbial middle finger salute to those who want to poison our waters, lands, culture, language and our memories.
On a side note, I will never ever post on Asbarez again as they censor comments. If my comments continue to be censored just for pointing out the truth, then Armenian Weekly will suffer the same fate.
Dear Ragnar,
I wonder 95 years after First Genocide of Century, Armenians around the globe has to debate with worthless Turkish paid historians, where their rotten pockets is full of Turkish delight!! I wonder sometimes if Rwandan’s nationals or Bosnian Muslims still arguing and debating about the facts of Genocide that happened to their own people, yet the number of dead were way lower than Armenians!!
Kiazer souze
I know about the Armenian pain because of the unbeliewvable crime that was committed against them. I do not deny that there was a genocide as I have said innumerable times in these debates. I only affirm it with certain qualifications. Of course you may see me as an enemy because of these qualifications.
Sassounian’s idea is good because it will show that Turkish scholars are way off the mark. They have no credibility. But if you scream at them that they are scum and say that 99.99 of all genocide scholars agree, people will not listen. You will only be heard by a small part of the world and probably only by a small part of the Armenians. If the world – that is the knowledgeable people – are to listen, you must present ARGUMENTS. – I am sorry and I understand your pain, but I have simply presented my opinions as others here do
grish begian
I am sorry that you experience it in this way. See what I wrote to Kiazer Souze. Sassoiunian’s idea of accusing the official Turkish websites means that one has to ARGUE. You have to argue in order to expose the Turkish denialists to sensible people around the world. Honestly, in any dispute. will you reach the ones who are not yet convinced bny calling them rotten and accusing them of being on the Turkish payroll? Armenians have just lost in a court case because they accused Guenter Lewy of being on the Turkish payroll. I understand your pain and frustration, but are you sure you are on the right track?
Ragnar,
Assuming arguendo that you are naive rather than just another style of denialist, your remarks that we should argue with Nazis is ridiculous. The entire Turkish state not only denies Genocide, but it also villifies Armenians in the same way Nazis villified Jews. Please read Mr. Kirlikovali’s comments in these pages that Armenians are all frauds, in 1915 and today. He is the personification of the state – he is the President of ATAA, and he last February dined with Erdogan. Or how about Tan welcoming the dancing Genocide enthusiasts outside his embassy on April 24, one of whom carried a sign bragging about the rape and torture of Armenian women.
Armenians are not required to argue with Turk Nazis. They are required to see the enemy clearly, and to protect themselves. Would you have told Manouchian to argue with the Gestapo, or to kill his tormentors when he had the chance while fighting the Nazis? We don’t use violence, but neither do we parlay with a state and much of a nation that wants us dead.
I don’t have to argue with a Turk about what I know first-hand from my miraculously-escaped grandfather and what a Turk knows from his distorted history book. We can argue till the cows come home and this is just another way of delaying and ultimately killing the justice for Armenians. Technically, how many decades a nation of 10 mln victimized Armenians can argue with a brainwashed nation of 73 mln unrepentant Turks? Or assuming we technically can, how can the Turkish murderer state admit guilt as a result of argument and conviction knowing that admission will inevitably lead to the need for apology and retributions? Germans could do it, but we’re dealing with Turks whose national self-consciousness is still evolving from nomadic origins. Evidence-based arguments have already been laid out by the reputable body of genocide scholars, historians, international lawyers, and parliamentarians. Turks presented their laughable counter-arguments that most of the scholars and increasing number or genocide-recognizing countries do not accept. What else is there to argue? Advanced by the community of concerned nations, the recognition process has entered its final stage: apology and reparations.
I agree with mjm and jda. What I am saying is to deffer to the reputable genocide scholars and historians if any of the Turkish paid scum want to have so-called discussions. They can refer to Wikpedia on the Armenian Genocide. And no, no one can change or add anything on the topic of the Armenian Genocide on Wikpedia. One can also Google all of the news articles of the time that describe it as the “Armenian Holocaust” long before the Jewish Holocaust was recognized.
I don’t know where this term “argue” came from. The Genocide cannot be argued, debated or questioned. It is a historical fact that can be researched through the Google newspaper articles of the that time.
KS, I have to agree with you here. The vast majority of the commentators on this site are not genocide scholars and would probably do better to let the experts handle the debates/arguments with the deniers. But I still love reading all the passionate comments and personal stories from others on this site.
Fair enough! If you do not want to argue with Turks, dont do it! Then I guess you disagree with Sassounian, and that is also fair enough. In my part of the world i see politicians arguing, not for years, but for decades, about the merits of basic political questions and strategies. What is to be the role of the state versus private businesses in economy? What is to be the role of the state in social policy as opposed to private organizations and NGOs? To what extent is political power and representation to be centralized, rather than meted out to local representative bodies? We see politicians and others argue and argue about this, and it is their only means to secure followers. Political Arguing is the main vehicle of attracting support and building up political pressure, apart from military force. But you claim to have another strategy?
Ragnar, you misunderstand me. I am happy to argue with you; my opinion, based on my knowledge against your opinion based on your knowledge. But, in the realm of ‘I think vs. you think’, I think we have both seen the limits of that discussion here. Remember, you bowed out of that recently?
What I was talking about above is different. If the discussion involves the disputing of imaginative twists on truth from genocide deniers, which I have seen plenty of here, than I know the limits of my knowledge of specific resources and historical minutiae and gladly defer to those more expert in the field.
As for opposing parties, whether political or private, arguing for issues and changes that they believe in, I agree there is value and sense in people talking as opposed to taking up arms against one another to force one sides will over the other. If only Ottoman/CUP/Ittihadists had understood the art of discussion, honest negotiation, and honoring one’s commitments, than we wouldn’t be here arguing now, would we?
On the other hand, Boyajian, we’ve exchanged 512 comments arguing mainly with the chorus of ragnars with their anti-Armenianism in “What Davutoghlu Fails to Understand.” Have you seen a different chorus of him when he re-surfaced in this discussion? And he’s not even a Turk, but a Turk-sympathizer and apologist who, as he asserts, has done research and fieldwork in Turkey and has read some accounts, predominantly denialist, though. Can you imagine how a brainwashed Turk would set blood hammering in our temples with his or her ignorance and obstinacy to acknowledge barbaric crimes of their grandparents? It is my strong conviction that along with occasional conferences or dog & pony shows that Turks would from time to time stage as PR stunts, as in Akhtamar, our strongest weapons: international recognition and legal actions must continue. I have no doubt in my mind that Turks started fidgeting because of these actions and not out of untypical for them feeling of remorse or regret for guilt.
Dera Ragnar,
and I wonder according to your own comments, if those honorable politicians, still debating about the root cause of First World War and Armenian Genocide, during their “coffee breaks”…
The defense team of Guenter Lewy, was sooo rich and supply of money was soooo good, that nobody wanted to drag the outcome of “Genocide verdict” for another 95 years, but the DEFENSE TEAM sympathizers..
Hi msheci! Are you saying that after 512 exchanges in which we debated, argued and discussed with Ragnar, that it is ironic that he should now scold Armenians for not wanting to argue?
I’d have to say that Ragnar has remained fairly consistent in his “I’m just not sure that intention has been ‘proven’ in the upper echelons of Ittihadists,” doubt-inducing agenda. Of course he is entitled to his views. But I don’t have to agree with or like them.
I welcome arguments/discussions/debates with those who are open to reviewing and reconsidering their views in light of new information but find it very frustrating when someone poses as if he were interested in “finding out” but really just wants to push his own agenda. I admit that I am very suspicious of those who advance the denialist propaganda, especially when they are not Turks themselves. At least with Kirlikovali, Murat, Robert, and Ahmet the agenda is obvious, the motive is clear, and you never wonder what they really think.
Also, I agree that Turks squirm in response to our actions in the geopolitical arena and that the pressure must not let up now. We get closer to achieving the aim of recognition and reparation everyday. It shouldn’t surprise us that Turkey pushes back against our pressure. It is an ugly thing to have to admit that your grandparents became such zealous adherents of pan-turanism that they forgot morality and engaged in barbaric campaigns to eliminate Armenians and other Christians.
Perhaps we Armenians are guilty of too zealously pursuing justice, but somehow I don’t think 1.5 million murdered souls would think so.
HI Msheci.. always a pleasure reading your comments… we miss you…
Boyajian jan.. as you said.. we have not seen any progress in Ragnar after our first long dicusssions and now this one..but i enjoy reading comments from you, mhm, jda, msheci, Grish and KS and how you stop Ragnar in his tracks…he is stuck in his own world and what frustates me the most is that he is not a Turk and yet he pushes an agenda sprinkled heavily with Turkish influence……he throws a candy or two to sweeten the deal when he knows he has been pushed in the corner but he has no where to turn to but bail…but even all that… he remains true to his agenda.. such a hypocrite…. hmmm i wonder what country his actions are similar to…. HA.. of course.. his beloved loghum eating country Turkey…I also question his motives and his dedication to his belief…that there is evidence of “intent” … why concentrate on this particular stupid factor when one is not part of something Turkish..What is in it for him? …but of course we know what is in it for him..
G
boyajian
my arguement was mainly against kiazer souze who seemed to applaud Sassounian’s idea of exposing lies on official turkish wesites but at the same time says that he will not discuss with denialists. It was not against you. And of course it is true that we have been listening to the arguments of each others now in dialogues with more than one thousand posts in sum. I believe this was good and I certainly learned a lot
Boyajian,
I agree that “Ragnar has remained fairly consistent in his “I’m just not sure that intention has been ‘proven’ in the upper echelons of Ittihadists,” doubt-inducing agenda.”
I wonder why. One possible explanation is that this is the cornerstone argument in his research, that’s what he has already put in his research papers and that’s what he has already presented to audiences. It takes not only integrity but also courage for an academic to publicly revise a thesis that he/she has been defending for some time. Ragnar lacks either one or both of these characteristics. I would not be suprise to find out that he has changed his view privately but feels insecure to accept his mistake. Ragnar is not a prominent figure in the area and the issue of a “genocidal intent” is his bread and butter. He may be afraid of losing his credibility if he makes any revisions. So all he may be doing is trying to convince himself and us that his original hypothesis still has a strong foundation. Of course, some of his comments on this forum and Today’s Zaman indicate that he may have integrity problems, as well.
Gina
one of the reasons I after a long discussion find these discussions less interesting is that many of you – to my mind – portray a lack of will of going into arguments actually posed. You can find many of my arguments in the two long discussions I have participated in. About intent: I try to stick to the general MORAL issue in the question of the Armenian genocide. It is much easier to argue – and convice the sceptics – about the immense moral responsibility of the ittihadists for deporting people without adequate means, and without punishing those who attacked the convoys. This alone should convince anybody and would to my mind be a better platform for the Armenian cause than the present platform which you believe in, and feel a loyalty to. Instead you take a detour which to my mind actually makes it more difficult to argue the Armenian cause (and you will have to argue, trust my words, the failure of the discussion after Sassounian’s recent article on attacking official Turkish websites is very revealing for the contradictions between the need to argue and the fear that by arguing you somehow admit doubt…and this you cannot afford even if it obviously is wrong, by arguing you bolster your case, but you may risk modifying cherished truths…..how frightening!!….). About intent in thev juridical sense – look at the reasons given by Antionio Cassese for why the case of Darfur is NOT genocide. Look at the juridical answer to the Bosnians when they in court held Milosevich responsible for genocide. From this I am very uncertain about how the AW would fare in court. The question of retroactivity is just the top of the iceberg. The ICTJ says “genocide” but fails to specify which perpetrators. To argue for genocidal intent in Reshid is much easier than in talaat. But foy you the genocidal intent ion the leading cadres, even long triome premeditastion, is holy truth, not to be questioned. And again I do not claim to be right. Maybe I am wrong. I claim the right to say that it is much more complicated to argue INTENT in leaders far from the scenes of the atrocities on the ground, than intent in some of the people on the ground, like Krstic in Srebrenica. On the other hand it is very easy to show the RESPONSIBILITY of leaders. So Milosevich was rightly found guilty in not hindering genocide. After the war japanese generals were executed on these grounds. Maybe I am worng but if the ones I argue with are not ready to refer to my actual arguments but insted take the easier course of wondering about my motives, my interest diminishes. It was interesting to see your mutual loyalties, the small remarks in Armenian to each other. This is a sign of loyalty, and I applaud it. But if it consistently takes the form of insulating oneself from relating to arguments, my interest is worn down. So again I want “politely to extricate myself” from the discussion, as Boyajian once said, but in the hope that you evcentually will see me as a person who really cares about the Armenian cause, but – maybe wrongly – has certain doubts about the received version.
Ragnar,
You are not a historian, and have no academic training or research as to the Genocides of Christian Armenian, Pontic, Assyrian and Greek subjects. You are not a lawyer, much less a human rights lawyer competent to discuss the Genocide Convention. Your academic background is in Latin.
Yet you purport to lecture this audience about your peculiar reservations about whether Talaat would be convicted in Ragnar’s make believe court of law. You are correct that “in the juridical sense” of whether a particular defendant would be convicted is always uncertain until it happens.
Historians deal with source materials and explanations for events. They are not historical Judge Judies, which it seems you aspire to be. They reach conclusions, not legal judgments. Why don’t you enroll in Donald Quataert or Niall Feguson or Donald Bloxham or Daniel Goldhagen or Taner Akcam’s courses to find out why they as first rank historians affirm the Genocide. Then ring up Geoffrey Robertson QC, and run your amateur legal beliefs by him.
If you doubt Talaat’s guilt, its your problem, not ours. It means at best you are ignorant. But its a persistent and willing ignorance. You’re just another enemy of truth, quite a self-indulgent one at that.
Yes, do go away.
Some queries for Ragnar:
1. Ragnar, is it lack of ‘will’ or lack of ‘expertise’ that limits some of the depth of arguments, do you think?
2. Also, is it arrogance raising its head when you say you are ‘losing interest’ in this site? You came here looking for what? You want honest, open discussion with Armenians to understand how they think? No problem. You want to believe you are on an academic site with genocide scholars whose expertise you can challenge? Not the best place for this. Here is where you meet a mix of people representing many levels of understanding and education, varying diasporan backgrounds, and unique personal family stories of survival and loss. The whole gamut. What are you looking for?
3. You say you hope that we “evcentually will see me (you) as a person who really cares about the Armenian cause, but – maybe wrongly – has certain doubts about the received version.
The truth is that I would feel very bad to find out that I have mistreated you because of suspicion or misunderstanding and not given fair ear to your assertion that you care about the Armenian cause. But can you take some responsibility for having alienated yourself and raised suspicions with many here because of some crass remarks and turkophilic assertions you made? Have you searched yourself for bias against Armenians based on your many years of close association with Turks. No need to defend your friendship with Turks. Just wondering if you perhaps came here with preconceived ideas which you now think differently about?
4. I happen to agree that the ‘moral’ angle is powerful and should be pursued fully. I have always argued from this position. But didn’t you once challenge me on this with your intent argument? Which is it that you believe?
5. Which arguments are we insulating ourselves from? Do we have to dignify every effort at denial and distortion? Should we not be wary of those who appear to align themselves with such denial? We are still licking our wounds from the first genocide, why should we not reject the ‘completion’ of this genocide delivered in the form of historical denial and doubt?
Ragnar… and as we said in the past and saying it now.. you put yourself in this situation with the intent to throw the actual subject matter off balance and inject with your Turkishness loving mind and soul (again minus to few comments that actually made sense.. but i repeat.. you only had few and few out of thousands is not much)…however, when you find yourself pushed in the corner and you see there is no where to go (this is after many presented you with many facts and arguments) you bail..you did that in our last discussion…we are stating facts here…
SO please stop justiying your actions by using us and i wish you can be up front and honest for once..clear the gray cloud over your head and let the sun shine.. and by letting the sun shine, you can bluntly tell us what your intentions are.. …..
But I believe Gina covered it well.. I can totally see you defending your thesis and not wanting to back down.. apres Gina..good point…
G
Gina, your speculation may be right. All I know is that we Armenians need and welcome friends who support our cause because they know it to be true and moral. Those who complicate the issue by espousing theories that were borne out of denialist propaganda and historical revisionism should expect a hard ‘push back’ from us. Are we ‘too sensitive’ to tolerate questions that challenge our view or that arise out of uninformed speculation? Perhaps. But it is a hyper-sensitivity that comes from the ongoing assault by the perpetrators who deny history and are essentially negating our right to our ancestral home.
Exactly Boyajian jan.. exactly….
It is not too hard to understand that right? So then why do we have Ragnars, Murats, Ulgurs, Ahmets, Roberts and yes Karekins of this world that are having such a hard time understanding such a simple concept/state of mind? I don’t understand it…
Ragnar.. you can be honest .. trust me.. we won’t bite you..trust me.. at least be honest no matter how hurtful or arrogant it may sound.. but at least you will give us some sort of peace and quite from all this chaos that we have been dealing with you for this long…
hye, I read in GROONG that Germany’s President Christian Wulff,visiting
Turkey spoke out before the Turks, too, saying they had to be worthy of
belonging to the EU… Manooshag
Boyajian
my last post was directed at Gina, not at you. Your number 1: I am not sure. When I participated in the Umich.edu-listserve some people – also Armenians – told me in direct personal communication that the issue of not betraying one’s own stopped many from following a dialogue and express partial agreement with me. The safest for Armenians in roder not to appear “soft on deniers” or even “traitors” seemed to be to stick to the accepted formulas. However, I noted some progress. One of the persons who first harassed me coninually – I was shocked by the passivity of the moderators in this respect – eventually came with a list of 10 arguments for genocidal intent. Very good!! 2. I experience that some of you Armenians have two paralell discussions with me, both asserting things about historical facts and at the same time a kind if diagnostic practice dealing with interpreting me as supporting the “Turkish side”, as being malignant, crazy etc. The received idea of a dialogue oriented discusssion is that one primarily adresses the views of the Other. To diagnose the other regarding intent etc is bad practice in a discussion. It can be done but has to be done in a freindly manner. And too many Armenians on this site do this in a bad way, to my mind. Actually some of the people holding the Turkish viewpoint also do it. And the ordinary Turk does it all the time(when I explained about Taner Akcam to a Turkish friend I regarded as sensible from many years of acquaintances, he looked at me and said: “Are you sure he is not Armenian?”. This was his way of dealing with trhe arguments of Akcam). No, you have in the main behaved very well. Yes, of course I take responsibility for difficiltiers in our debate, but I believe I continued to try to answer calmly and to the point for a very long time in the face of remarks that I felt were insulting and denigrating. But then we had to show our dialogue to outsiders who are experts on communication and who are more outsiders than me, to judge about this. Should we do this? 4. I dont remember that I challenged you on this. If you provide the text, I can look into it. 5. No, you should not if you feel it like that. But I believe evwen non-spoesialists like me or you have a sense of logic. We have a capacity for dialogue as humans and I believe one should follow arguments and that a sustained effort at this has value. The diagnostics stops dialogue – I was hoping for a dialoge with jda on the “analytical and factual level”, but he backed down, apparently. We might both have learned something from it, I believe. But I do not care to go on discussing with people who have continually to bolster themselves with invectives against me. Of course it has shown me the pain and the open wounds Armenians still have. I also believe that Armenians who simply give up and stop fighting for recognition and reparation betray something important in themselves. I have respect for those who go on fighting even if they do it in ways I somtimes find repulsive. The Armneian wounds are important for me to understand if I am to go on working in this ares. But regarding woulds quite another debate is also necessary. Dr. Kaligian and Chiara Meghigian Zenati conduct therapeutic sessions for Armenians ande Turks where the participants work with their feelings. Of course this is both important for them and valuable in itself. But my interest lies in the scientific treatment of the actual question, even if I learned aomething about my weaknesses in empathy in this discussion: the tendency to answer with “cold” arguments in situations where I should have sensed that I should have been more supportive and emphatic. – About leaving the discussion: when you ask in this way, I am of course more interested in pursuing the dialogue
To the naive and young Armenians posting on this blog;
This blog is not the weeping wall to show your feelings to Turkish stooges. If you need psycho analysis about your feelings, go see a shrink in private and send the bill to the Turkish government as an advance for the retribution, reparations and return of properties that must be made.
Ragnar,
With your limited to infinitesimal knowledge, training and skills, it is pointless for you to try to educate Armenians about the supposed shortcomings in their arguments. Apparently you have decided to get in on the action not by mastering the materials, and frankly,at your age you lack the time to master them, but instead by offering your messy comments about comments of other lay people.
I suggest you pester a more obvious target: the Turkish denalist state and its grey lap dogs. Their propaganda is everywhere. Go for it. start with ataa, atc, etc.
You know that the least sophisticated college student majoring in armenian studies at the world’s most backwards school can eviscerate your “juridical” arguments, so why not use your gifts where they can pay off.
On a different note,
No Armenian should purchase any food products made in Turkey. First of all, they are loaded with pesticides, chemicals and other disgusting preservatives. However, the most important reason for not purchasing such products is because we don’t know if they were produced on confiscated Armenian farms, orchards and the like. Don’t be a willing participant of the finalization of the Armenian Genocide. Besides, it always better to eat fresh and organic foods to invite curious people to enjoy with you and break bread with and form bonds with.
Ragnar, you have given me much to think about!
boyajian
I will answer your five points in the course of the Sunday hopefully. I want to have time to reflect and answer you properly.
boyajian
sorry, I made an answer and thought it did not come through. But now I see it is here.
jda
I am sorry for your hatefulness against somebody who should not be the target of your frustrations. I dont know how to answer you, but I would like to say something about my dialogues with Turks. First, I posted a long comment here in AW with questions to mr. Kirlikovali. He never answered. I also sent several posts to “Daily Zaman” and “Daily Hurriyet” and also to “Turkish forum”. There is now an intersting article in the English speaking Turkish press on the fate of the Protocols, and one Turkish author criticises the Armenian Supreme Court for saying that it is not open to debate whether there was a genocide or not. In this way the Armenians precluded debate the author says. I will answer saying that if the Turkish side really wanted dialogue they would have found a way to go into the dialogue. The Supreme Court in Armenia simply states their view, as Turks have stated theirs. This does not preclude dialogue. I will suggest that the Turkish government is not sincere when it insists that it wanted dialogue, but that the Armenian side backed down
Ragnar,
I have resorted to ridicule of things you post which are – ridiculous. Don’t conflate ridicule and satire with hatefulness.
You harbor naive illusions that Armenian, Greek, Assyrian, Pontic and humanity’s demands for justice can be tweaked with your leadership to produce a “dialogue” with Nationalist Turks resulting in something or other. Our differences with Turks are not a matter of dialogue. Both sides know the truth. We understand them and their needs. Our differences concern atoning for evil and making reparations. Its a matter of will, not scholarship.
So far as educating you goes, you don’t even know who your Turkish audience is, or what their political agenda is. I and the other people here do. The Turkish agenda is to destroy every Armenian person, place and memory until there are so few Armenians, and so much Turkish wealth and power that the few who know what 1915-1923 means won’t care. As part of that process we have blunderers like you roaming the earth trying to bring two sides together. We also have writers like de Bellaigue trying to make Genocide into something softer and gentler. This is all appeasement.
I object to an amateur who adds nothing and can’t even figure out why his remarks are irrelevant and wrong.
Dear Ragnar,
Worlds’ press freedom ranked Turkey into 138 place among 178 countries…it is obvious, why most Armenians like jda are frustrated….Turkey is not a free country, it is obvious controlled by Islamists leftists, kemalists and Ergenokons, where all of these elements functioning within Turkish constitutional jurisdiction system with the help of fanatic code 301..I wonder sometimes, what is your real intention in this forum, that constantly asking us to be nice with Turks..are you trying to tell us, that we all are illiterate unimportant tribes compare with superior Turkish race??
I don’t think Kirlikovali answers others comments, he simply snipes. He is not interested in dialogue, but attack.
Why are we still bothering with this player?
What I would give to have Ragnar and his likes stand in front of our grandparents and tell them to their face that the CUP’s “genocidal intent” was questionable!!! This whole dialogue is a blasphemy to our ancestors’ memory! Our grandparents had a crystal clear understanding that the Turks came after them to kill them all by the order of their government. Not only that, all the neighboring countries back then knew without a doubt that the Armenians were annihilated in Anatolia. They are the ones who received the surviving orphans from whom the Armenian Diaspora was born.
On top of that, we are indulging Ragnar’s puzzling arrogant airs of superiority! He keeps on criticizing us over nonsense with his condescending tone, when he has no personal accolades to be honored for! He has rendered our Genocide into a game of “arguing for the sake of arguing”, and has produced absolutely NO evidence and NILL documents that support his ridiculous hypothesis! Why are we still communicating with him?
In addition, we are giving him the opportunity to stir up more nonsensical garbage by injecting comments referring to some unknown Armenians who have supposedly secretly agreed with his ridiculous hypothesis! Who are these Armenians and what did they agree on are all shrouded in enigmatic mystery! Is that what he is trying to achieve with us too by pushing this completely nonfactual hypothesis on us? I wonder what he is gaining from this cynical dialogue, besides inflating his grandiose ego! I know we are not gaining anything from it but getting continuously offended!
To make things more confusing he claims to be fighting for our cause! If he is fighting for our cause then what is he arguing with us about? Our cause is very clear: the Turkish authorities massacred our ancestors in WWI and took all their assets/lands/possessions from them, and the present day Turkey needs to acknowledge this crime and make reparations for it. This is our cause.
Of course he is not going to answer me again, so that he does not divert attention away from himself…
Drop this ridiculous discussion guys, drop it! Listen to me… we are wasting our energy… His is not an honorable endeavor!
Dialogue is for the naive.
Ragnar, thanks for taking so much time to respond. I have a few thoughts. First, I want to respond to this statement of yours about Armenians:
I have respect for those who go on fighting even if they do it in ways I somtimes find repulsive.
You have made numerous comments in this vein and I have always cringed at the thought that the righteous indignation of Armenians against what the Turks did to Armenians should be viewed as repulsive. It seems that the world has been turned upside down. The murdered nation has to ‘apologize’ for its resolve that the murdering nation must pay. It is simply bizarre that we should have to coax the rest of civilized society to join us in this resolve. I understand that you hear emotionally charged comments that accuse Turks of unflattering characteristics as bigoted, and this offends you. (I won’t say ‘racist comments’ because after all the co-mingling of ethnic groups in Asia Minor, the differentiation along racial lines has been blurred. Who is a Turk? Even the offspring of a forced marriage or rape is still biologically my cousin. A hard truth to accept!)
I still believe, that you came to this discussion with Armenians with too much opinion and not enough knowledge about the Armenian struggle. And (I will give you the benefit of the doubt, here) that is why you failed to understand the ‘heat’ in the words of many Armenians and found yourself casting judgment on what you saw as crass Anti-Turkishness. I don’t deny that our frustration has led to anger which leads to highly charged words, but I am glad that on some level you find yourself feeling respect for the resolve shown by Armenians.
So I have to ask, do you know how repulsive it is to an Armenian to hear anyone diluting the tragedy that our nation endured by casting doubts and aligning with denialist propaganda that only entered the dialogue after intensified efforts by Armenians for genocide recognition?
Secondly, yes, we at times appear hyper-loyal to the ‘Armenian’ side of the story, but that is not just an ethnic loyalty. To us it is a loyalty to what we know as truth. We have seen the truth be denied, manipulated and turned on its head by those who are the perpetrators of a crime they do not want to face. We have seen the world turn a blind eye and cold heart to the thought of letting our genocide go unpunished, simply because it is politically advantageous. GENOCIDAL TRUTH becomes alleged claims, becomes ancient ethnic struggle, becomes civil war, becomes unfortunate tragedy. There is an instinctive Armenian rejection of anything that smacks of a ‘Turkish twist’ on the genocide.
I don’t want to be redundant, but either you have willingly aligned yourself with those who want to avoid justice or you naively espouse, because of lack of a full understanding of the history, some thoughts of the phony history designed to obfuscate the truth produced by the Turkish side. Either way, you have ruffled more than a few feathers and have had to face the Armenian, highly sensitized, knee-jerk response to your ‘provocations’.
For me there is a bottom line. First the crime must be acknowledged and compensated for. The academic dissection of cause and effect of the events must be secondary to the human and societal need for a just world. I have little patience for those who would deny justice. So I don’t mean to be rude, but could you please check your motives and your ego one more time and get out of the way unless you are here to help say no to tolerance of genocide.
Boyajian
I will comment on your bottom line
you write:
First the crime must be acknowledged and compensated for.
comment:
I am not sure about what you mean by “first” here. I am here to learn and to listen to arguments. I agree about the crime. The task is to try to convince the honest, but sceptical Turks. Why “first”? If I should do something first, I did. From the very beginning I said that a colossal crime weas committed against Armenians.
you write:
The academic dissection of cause and effect of the events must be secondary to the human and societal need for a just world.
comment:
Again I dont know what is your point. We get towards a just world by certain methods. If we cannot go to war we have to argue, make propaganda, raise the issue. Do it in the best way. Discuss strategy. For me it has been important to listen to you and also suggest a strategy. the discussion of cause and effect has had less importance for me.
you write:
I have little patience for those who would deny justice. So I don’t mean to be rude, but could you please check your motives and your ego one more time and get out of the way unless you are here to help say no to tolerance of genocide.
comment:
you are not rude, but I am surprised at your concern with my motives. I outlined to jda what I will say to the Turks – regarding one article. This is one example.There will be many more. Of course I say no to the tolerance of genocide. I am also not only “here”. I am on turkish sites to confront them. My motivation is to work for human rights in Turkey, and by now I also feel the solidarity with Armenians. I plan to be in Ankara on april 24 next year, together with Turks and others who confront the standard turkish denialism. This is my motivation. But again – it doesnt mean that I agree with you in everything, and for me our debate has been important. But I still feel that you still have a problem in relating positively to somebody who cares about the Armenian cause, agrees in most, but not in all. No, I feel secure in my motivation. Again I wish you luck and maybe we will discuss again some time, maybe not.
Dear Boyajian,
Your last post was so touching and honest…it is a priviledge to have someone as eloquent as you posting on this site. You are an amazing communicator and advocate of our cause. However, it hurts me to say that the person you are addressing is not only not from your caliber as a communicator, but he has also proven to be a terrible listener. There is something wrong in someone pushing the agenda of a perpetrator nation by endorsing dishonest legal maneuverings purposefully concocted to avoid accountability. He not only does not check himself in the mirror to see if he is being influenced by erroneous and biased material, he also has the audacity to insist that he somehow knows more about the circumstances and details of this crime than us, the descendants of the survivors. He does not see how absurd this comes across for us. Our grandparents had lived for years under the tyranny of the Ottoman Empire. The majority were not affiliated with any Armenian political party whatsoever to be in any way influenced by the politics of the time. They were regular people who were isolated, deported and killed by the Turks in an elaborately organized way that involved the kaimakams, governors, Ittihadist party secretaries, chettehs, gendarmes and the Turkish army, just for being Armenian.
It seems that Ragnar wants the Turkish state to make reparations for the misfortunes of the Armenians at a proportionately minimal level compared to the level where it would have to if it accepts the Genocide its predecessor committed.
He has made our Genocide into an accademic passtime that completely disregards the untainted first person eyewitness testimonies of the time.
Ambassador Morgenteau said it very clearly that he was witnessing an organized campaign of race extermination.
I am more interested in finding out when and how is Armenia going to make official claims against Turkey. I am looking forward for the report that will come out from the recent UCLA convention about the aftermath and reperations for the Genocide.
Excellent JDA, Katia jan ….
Boyajian jan.. you are the patience of an angel and I thank you for it…
Ragnar- no matter how you twist the matters, i don’t agree with your stance, and the way you try to make yourself sound and feel righteous.. I don’t believe you..
and as I said before.. you will remain a Genocide deniar to me.. i am sorry….. because ??????????????????????????????? i said this to you many times.. there is only two sides to this matter.. either yes there was a Genocide or no there was not … andddddddddddddddddd to me, there is no only ONE way to YES.. Yes is a yes..there is no ifs, buts, maybes, could bes, ect….but there are MANY levels to NO… and your belief and plan and science about the Genocide is definintely one level of no.. hence, denial…
Thank you
Gayane
Ragnar, the ‘first’ I am referring to is first Turkey must admit or be made to admit to the Genocide. It is not a first I ask of you alone, but of the world. Yes you acknowledge the genocide but you play with details which I consider distractions from the essential and primary truth. I feel bogged down in this conversation with you; it seems we (you, me and others) spend too much time defending our comments and not nearly enough time on an expanded dialogue on how to move the Armenian Cause forward. I don’t want to spend time arguing with anyone about what I have learned to be true from survivors, from historians and from my own parents; or to spend so much time in dissecting each others comments. I never claimed that Turks were all devils or that Armenians are all saints, but the truth of the genocide is undeniable and justice has yet to be done. That is the ‘first’ I am talking about.
Secondly, you and I disagree on the notion that there is something to argue about with respect to the truth of the genocide. It is a tragic absurdity that the world colludes in Turkey’s amnesia for these events and that Armenians are being told to enter into historical re-examinations of long ago established conclusions.
Thirdly, I have a problem relating to you because you come across as a confusing and contradictory person who seems to change colors like a chameleon. I am not sure what to make of this. One moment suggesting Armenians are as likely to be murderers of a nation, the next claiming empathy for the Armenian cause.
Katia, I thank you and Gayane for your encouraging words. I feel the same about you and have the utmost respect for your intellect and your integrity on these pages.
Boyajian,
Admire your angelic patience in continuing to debate with the chorus of ragnars. There’s a proverb I’ve heard when in Russia. It translates roughly: “Lord, deliver me from friends. As for enemies, I’ll get rid of them by myself.” No comments…
Cheers,
M
Understood, Msheci…
I feel as if I have walked into an ‘intervention’ with a circle of trusted friends who are gently trying to lead me away from something that is not good for me. Thanks. My eyes are wide open and I have a long memory!
boyajian
I also believe that we should stop this dialogue. However, the details you believe are not essential, I believe to be important. So let us agree to disagree.
Apart from this, we all should go on scrutinizing our motives. This of course also applies to me. I thank you for your patience and again wish you luck
Thank you Boyajian, for everything.
Truth is my sister, that noone, not even the most staunch Aremenian sympatizer, will ever feel what we feel inside as Armenians, because WE are the only ones who lived and are still living through this Genocide experience.
But for humanity’s sake, I know truth shall prevail…it will prevail.
Bless you and may God bless our rightous cause.
I concur to what Katia jan said.. Boyajian you are an absolutely great writer and commentator (yes indeed..:)) … (that goes to Katia, Msheci, JDA, MJM, Grish, and our other friends)…
Thank you for keeping the fire burning and fighting forward even when we face road blocks like Ragnars, Murats, Karekins, Roberts, Ahmets of the world… your determination and passion gives me hope and courage to fight on as well…
I just hope that Ragnar truly took something valuable from all the time and effort you all have put into this.. (this is the second or third longest discussion forums that Ragnar ingnited the fire and then put it out because he got defeated.. or as he put it.. he decided to agree to disagree and left….)
i look forward to your future comments my dear friends.. you are definintely the pride of Armenia and Armenians…
God Bless you all…
Gayane
Ragnar, I agree to disagree. I thank you for any work you are doing or may do in the future that will benefit a resolution of the Armenian Cause. I hope all your doubts and questions will be cleared up. I’m sure I will come across your writing again in the future. May the truth be known by all and may justice come.
To all readers:
I have endured Ragnar’s efforts to groom our comments and ingratiate himself. I have read with skepticism his remarks about how he has sympathy for the Armenians cause, and believes that it was Genocide except for maybe the courtroom sense.
All of these are mirepresentations. Ragnar serves the Turk Nazi cause.
Please watch the following clip from his recent bravura performance at the UUtah, where he served up some nonsense that truth ot the Armenian Genocide was debatable. Just a matter of perspective. Laughable too is his claim that he is a philosopher. All Ragnar is, is a friend of the enemy:
http://stream.utah.edu/m/dp/frame.php?f=382c03226a9a4a52188
jda, I have watched the video over and over again, searching every word and facial expression for a deeper understanding of what moves this man. I may be wrong, but I believe this is the work of a person who is misled by his previous infatuation with Turkey, who can’t bring himself to condemn those who served him coffee and lokhum, who misjudges the players. He makes faulty conclusions based on limited and biased research. His credentials to enter the dialogue may be questionable but I believe he is a man who in his senior years hopes to do something of significance and offer his perspective based on his own life experiences. (Oh, the pitfalls of unexamined pride!) His greatest faults: misplaced loyalty and lack of humility to realize that his work hurts real people and betrays justice. Or maybe its in the hookah he’s smoking… JK
JDA…. Thank you for sharing the clip..
I watched and as I was watching i was wondering as to how one man can sit there and pretend to understand and know history on the limited and biased knowledge that he possesses…. I was listening to him and after a while after his mumbo jumbo, i could not stand it anymore… but i made myself to finish watching him…he seems very odd and enigma just like his writings…
As I said… he does have an agenda and this clip truly exposed as to what he is searching on these pages…
He had smoked the Turkish marijuanna for sure….
There are a few actual scholars who are studying patterns of Turkish state denialism over time. I suppose it is an interesting field of study, but it does not illuminate what happened in 1915 except to this extent: many of the arguments the enemy uses today have been in use since the 1890’s, and were used as a justification to deport, starve and kill.
Contrary to her claims that Turkey has been asleep at the switch public relations-wise, these studies of rhetoric actually show that Turkey has been lying and suppressing speech for over a century.
Its part of Genocide: blame third party nations for interfering with your internal affairs when they complain about murder, accuse the victims of collaborating with these foreign powers to save their lives, and enlist people in these nations to cover for you.
Ragnar does not even qualify as an expert in classical argument, or modern mass media. By pointing out the obvious, namely that Turk Nazis deny Genocide, he adds nothing but soothes the Turks by treating the denialist point of view as being just another valid viewpoint.
In protesting the Lowry affair, Robert Jay Lifton and other real scholars pointed out the immoral conduct of the state and the scholars who front for Genocide denial. Ragnar is just another flavor in this immoral effort by which the Turks try to make Genocide nothing more than an allegation, and the truth something which is debatable.
Jda, denial can be a slippery and insidious game, that when unchecked, leaves the uninformed or ill-informed scratching their heads in confusion over where the truth lies, thus delaying or thwarting justice. You are right to draw firm lines of distinction and to point out the immoral instruments of denial utilized by people who ‘simply raise questions.’
Absolutely correct JDA… Thank you very much for clarifying the matter as I know we Turks here who are very slow in swallowing or understanding .. hopefully this will provide great insight to Ragnar so that next time when he opens his mouth, he thinks about as to what he is doing and what can happen if he continues such acts…
Thank you again for always being the voice of strength… Boyajian that goes for you to my dear..:)
You are definintely my heros… :)
Gayane
Why do you people waste your valuable time and resources to have a so-called “dialogue” with Turkish stooges? Why does this blog shun or censor those who point out the obvious? The only dialogue that should be discussed is in how to put the onerous on Turks to show property records and how they were acquired. The burden should be on the Turkish government to show that it rightfully is in possession of Armenian lands, and if not, end its occupation of Western Armenia and Cyprus.
I waste my and your valuable time because I think Ragnar’s racket is insidious. It creeps into the edges of academia despite his lack of credentials, research or insight.
And from there the enemy seeks to use it to mislead, say the American Congress, from whom help is always needed.
The enemy uses every tool from murder [Hrant Dink] to suppressing speech in this Country [Musa Dagh movies in 1933 and 2009] to corrupting American universities [Princeton, UU] to having lobbyists work more for Turkey than any other foreign power except Israel, by endowing research that supports Denial and by corrupting Congress [read Sibel Edmonds’ testimony of 8/11/09 or her website] and using expensive litigation, such as that brought unsuccessfully against the Commonwealth of Massachusetts [Griswold case]. Their patience and funds are unlimited. Their treachery and instincts are unchanged.
The enemy will try to destroy any Turkish voice that speaks truthfully [harassment and worse against Taner Akcam]. It will try to disrupt meetings where truth is spoken, just as Nazi Brown Shirts did [Margaret Ahnert in New York in 2008].
It is too late for us to form ranks and use weapons to defeat the enemy of 1915. It is never too late to meet the enemy’s words and stooges, even if nobody but us is the audience.
I do it because my grandmother’s relatives were shot down and burned in front of her. I do it every chance I get.
I stand by you JDA… absolutely … and thank you for doing that.. weapons are not an option for a civilized world (i am sure this does not refer to Turkey as they will not blink on that opportunity) but words are always an option which Turkey is not good at either.. so what is Turkey good at? oh yeah.. denial, lies, corruption, buying out cheap politians, spending millions of dollars to keep anyone from talking the truth, brainwashing her school children, and citizens, blaming others for their acts, playing both sides, making up stupid laws just to cover and protect their sorry you know what.. wow.. such a great resume.. i am sure it looks great on paper but Turkish govt and those who support her is as imcompetent and ignorant as ever…soo sad…
Apres JDA jan.. shat apres… yes qezanov hiyatsats em…
jda, I burst in tears… God Bless you, brother (or sister)…
jda, your thoughts shared are the reason we continue. It’s not just for the future and our children. It’s for the voices silenced by murder or the grandparents who instilled in us this legacy of carrying the torch of justice. You are correct. There is something we can all do every day and it will continue to make collectively and individually stronger. The Turks do not understand this and this is our advantage. It is why Armenia prevailed in the Vartanantz epic. It is why Sardarabad saved Armenia from extinction. It is why Karabagh prevailed. It is why we must continue and will prevail. Thank you.
Whyy visitors still make use of to read news papers when in this technological world everything is acceswsible on web?
Given how much more repressive Turkey has become in recent times, one must wonder just how much it has affected tourism and Armenian tourism. Much as many of us would like to visit our ancestral homelands by traveling to Aghtamar and other parts of our patrimony, we cannot dismiss the idea that these trips are used by Turkey to serve the government’s own interests. They say “See? We can still squeeze every last dime out of Armenians by making them pay to see their own ancestral homeland.” They say “See? Regardless of what happened in the past, Armenians still flock to Turkey, so it cannot be that bad.” They say “See? Subversive Armenians are taking inventory on these visits so they can usurp the land.” The propaganda machine will continue to churn. If you are going, especially in today’s climate, not only be careful, be thoughtful about your actions. Simply carrying an Armenian name on your passport could land you in jail.
Kudos to the genius who combined the drapery with the plates and
put the total design together as seen above.
Although I disagree with Harout on Armenians going to the Akhtamar Church is since the Turks will use our Travels to Historic Armenia for propaganda purposes, but the good reason for Armenians to travel there is to not forget what our parents went through & to go to those villages & record their parents stories for remembrance & to continue writing books on those villages & the Armenian Genocide that their parents went through & all that they lost & struggled through. The other drawback I see on Travel to Turkey is we are helping the Turks to keep their Economy strong.
Soon, Greeks, Armenians and Kurds will march together onto Istanbul, then Ankara, then Baku. We will give the Kurds their territory, as revenge for the genocides against the Armenians and Pontic Greeks and Assyrians and other christians, we will see the cities of Adana and Bursa burnt, to be nothing more than rural towns where our armies will be based in joint military bases. Cyprus will be avenged with the city of Ankara being divided with a berlin type wall where the Greek-Armenian border will be situated, for the cleansing of Greeks and Armenians from Izmir, for that humiliation, we will eradicate the cities of Mersin, and Konya, nothing is to be left and we will force the local Turk population into a massive camp to be built there for slave labor, as they’d done to Greek and Armenian men after ww1 in the early 1920s. For you, my Armenian friends, for all the injustices belted out to you by the Azeris, you’ve got free rein over there, you can conduct whatever you want and Greece won’t bat an eye.
Now: This would only be if we sank to their low.
But we won’t. Greece and Armenia should always work together, our diaspora organizations must work together, I would even support, a common Greek-Armenian state, two peoples, one nation, one heart. We’re both ancient peoples, our history is simply too rich to let others trample all over it.If the Greek, Armenian, Kurd, and Arab Christian communities joined as one voice, we’d be heard, if we had this voice in the European nations, US, Uk, Russia, China even, we’d be louder than the scum who run the Turkish coaliton of america. They’ve joined up with the Skopjian communities, so, i say, we join all our communities together, and run those bastards down, and punish them.