What better time than May 8 to remind ourselves that the liberation of historic Armenian Artsakh is not yet a done deal. May 8, 1992 marked the capture of the ancient Armenian fortress city of Shushi in a daring maneuver that caught the Azeris by surprise. It was a bold strategy that led to an improbable victory that can be compared in its effect to the victory at Sardarabad in 1918. It may well be time for the Armenian Revolutionary Federation (ARF) to reassume that bold strategy to lay the groundwork for Artsakh’s de jureindependence. If the ARF is not willing, who can the Armenians of Artsakh look to?
Since the ceasefire two years later in 1994, Artsakh (Karabakh and the liberated territories) has not only survived under the most difficult of conditions, but our brothers and sisters have transformed a war-ravaged region into a functioning democratic society. Unfortunately, we have done far less than is necessary or within our capabilities in assisting Artsakh’s economic development and its quest for independence.
The ARF through its Central Committees and their ad hoc committees and lobbying entities throughout the diaspora are engaged in a wide range of activities that seek to address the injustices that the Armenian nation has endured since the Ottoman-Turkish government began its genocide of the Armenian nation on April 24, 1915. During the 70 years that Armenia was a captive republic under Moscow’s control, the ARF was the principal institution in the diaspora confronting the Turkish government’s official policy of denial and historical revisionism with respect to the Armenian Genocide. During this same period, the ARF was the principal institutional force that literally saved the traumatized survivors of the genocide from losing their Armenian identity and nurtured the belief in the eternal nature of Hai Tahd (Armenian Cause).
With the unforeseen implosion of the Soviet Union, three events occurred that dramatically changed the political landscape. First, Armenia declared its independence from the Soviet Union (Russia). Second, the Armenians of historic Armenian Karabagh declared their independence. In the war for liberation forced upon them by Azerbaijan, the Karabaghtsis not only prevailed but liberated adjacent areas of historic Armenian Artsakh. Today, the historic Armenian Shahumian district still remains occupied by Azeri military forces, its population having been terrorized, murdered, or forced to flee their ancestral homes. The eastern border areas of Martakert and Martuni also remain under Azeri military occupation. And the third significant event that occurred was the return of the ARF to an independent Armenia.
In a relatively short span of time, perhaps too quickly, the field of engagement and the mission of the ARF had expanded to the Armenian Homeland (Armenia, Artsakh, and Javakhk). However, the principal thrust of its strategy remained focused on Turkey: genocide recognition, reparations, the return of religious properties, and the criminalization of public denial of the Armenian Genocide. These efforts can be easily defended because each victory immediately meets the expectations of the Diasporan Armenians. Unfortunately, these victories have no political legs.
Yet they are important because they do assuage the psycho-emotional needs of our people. Having said this, we must also accept the fact that a century later we are no closer to achieving the justice we seek nor is the Turkish leadership any closer to acknowledging the genocide that sought to destroy our nation.
Compounding our difficulties is the serious misunderstanding on our part between what world political leaders mean when they suggest that Turkey revisit its past and our expectation of what it means for Turkey to revisit its past. The disconnect is that our demand for acknowledgment is a component of Hai Tahd. What is suggested by foreign political leaders has no connection to Hai Tahd. It is simply a need for Turkey to confront its past history and acknowledge what the Armenians have suffered during the dying days of the Ottoman-Turkish Empire. It is not accusatory. Having said that, I can think of any number of governments, some of which have recognized the Armenian Genocide, that would eagerly support a hypocritical Turkish apology based on a sanitized version of what happened.
Support from these so-called sympathetic foreign governments cannot be depended upon. These governments have no intention, desire, or the fortitude to confront Turkey on the genocide issue when it includes restitution, reparations, or boundary rectification. This is the meaning of Hai Tahd to Armenians and it is these demands that make Hai Tahd a political issue. Can you name a foreign government that would take up the cudgels for Armenia vis-a-vis Turkey, let alone for the ARF, in this political context? We refuse to consider that given the opportunity, foreign leaders would eagerly opt to have the genocide issue simply go away, to vanish forever.
While the diaspora is engaged in these skirmishes, the key to Hai Tahd, the credibility of the ARF, and the future of Armenia has been and still remains victory in Artsakh. Independence is neither guaranteed nor will it be handed to us as a gift.
Artsakh represents the only political victory our people have experienced during the modern period of Armenian history. And at this moment in time, it is not yet a done deal. De jure independence would be a major diplomatic victory for Armenians and a humiliating defeat for Azerbaijan and, by extension, its ally, Turkey. Not only would it represent a seismic shift in the political fortunes of Armenia, but it would be a fitting memorial to the thousands of Azatamartiks (freedom fighters) who sacrificed their lives for their families, their land, and their inalienable right to live as Armenians. And it would endorse Hai Tahd as a bona fide Dashnaktsutiun manifesto. No effort alone or in combination currently underway within the diaspora can match the importance of this potential political victory. And there is no victory that could better prepare us as we enter the post-2015 years.
From an economic standpoint, de jure recognition would encourage a sharp increase in foreign investment in Artsakh as well as an increase in economic and humanitarian aid from the diaspora and from foreign governments that have hesitated to enter a politically delicate situation. Given the spirit of the Artsakh Armenians, this would be the catalyst that would set the region on an explosive growth that could easily sustain a minimum population of one million (see “The Key to Armenia’s Political and Economic Future,” The Armenian Weekly Special Issue, January 2010). Artsakh should be recognized for what it represents. It is the future economic frontier of Armenia.
The ARF must live up to its revolutionary heritage. The party must take the lead with Stepanakert to convene a series of working conferences, each of which would be given a specific mandate. Conference “A” would involve specialists in Soviet constitutional law who would frame the case for Karabagh’s legal right to have declared its independence. This is crucial. It does not matter that the ARF or Stepanakert believe the people of Karabagh had that right. The findings of this conference with its distinguished participants should be published and distributed to as wide an audience as necessary.
Conference “B” would explore the right of the Artsakh Armenians to declare their independence based on either the principle of remedial secession or self-determination. International legal scholars should be given the task to frame the case for the Artsakh Armenians. These findings should also be published and distributed to as wide an audience as necessary.
Participants of Conference “C” would author a well-documented report that covers the 70 years that the Armenians of Artsakh were subjected to the discriminatory policies by Azerbaijan; the separation of the historic Armenian Shahumian district from Karabagh and its subsequent depopulation; the various permutation of genocide-including pogroms and the destruction of historic Armenian artifacts; the military occupation of Shahumian and the occupation of the border districts of Martakert and Martuni by the Azeri military; and the continual breaches along the Line of Contact and the unprovoked killings of Karabagh military personnel by sniper fire. This report should be published and distributed to as wide an audience as is necessary. Unfortunately, the full story of Artsakh has not been told to the world, let alone to the majority of Diasporan Armenians who remain on the sidelines during this significant moment in our history.
There is an absolute need that Karabagh become a principal party in the negotiations. Doing this would undercut Azerbaijan’s position by recognizing Artsakh and eliminating its claim that this is an irredentist movement by Armenia. By making this claim, Baku is able to define the conflict as an attempt by Armenia to regain lost territories and threaten its territorial integrity. Again, experts must be consulted to separate the usual conflict that arises between the claim of territorial integrity (which technically does not apply) by Azerbaijan and humanitarian intervention rightfully exercised by Armenia. After nearly 20 years (from the 1994 ceasefire) we have yet to define the Artsakh issue to our advantage. How can this be viewed in a positive light? None of the principles that the Minsk Group has proposed over the years to guide the negotiations ever speak to Artsakh becoming an independent political entity. That in itself should cause us alarm.
Short informational films that depict various aspects of life in Artsakh should be available to inform our people and others to see the giant strides that have been made. These films should show the destruction, as well, that was caused by Azerbaijan’s intransigence. There should be a steady stream of visiting legislative leaders, news-makers, business people, and educators among the various groups that should be cultivated to espouse our cause. Our public relations effort has been woefully inadequate.
Our lack of the required effort should not be excused by our need to pursue what many like to tout as our present successful strategy. No one is advocating an either-or strategy. The work being carried on in the diaspora must continue, but it must be understood that Artsakh’s de jure recognition far transcends all else. Our mission in helping Artsakh gain its deserved recognition by the world community of nations must be comprehensive, multi-faceted, coordinated, properly staffed, and financed. A failure in Artsakh will have a domino effect on our century-long struggle for justice, especially as we approach the watershed year of 2015. Hai Tahd will lose its relevancy; and Armenia would be relegated to a position within the south Caucasus that makes it politically and economically subservient to neighboring Turkey, Georgia, and victorious Azerbaijan. It would be a situation that I would regret having lived to see.
Michael Mensoian
Latest posts by Michael Mensoian (see all)
- Facing the Reality that is Artsakh - August 6, 2020
- Tourism: An Economic Tide That Can Lift All “Boats” - January 29, 2020
- The Legacy of the Hairenik and the Armenian Weekly - January 7, 2020
Armenians must involve with heavy investment in a beautiful, Fertile land of Artsakh, and start exporting food and mineral water toward European market!!
All the winds are gusting against Armenia.
Armenia is like Serbia of 1990s. Look what happened to Serbia. They were sweeping across the Balkans with their victories after the collapse of Communism. Now, they lost everything: Kosovo, Montenegro etc.
The reason why the “CORRECTION” in Serbia was shorter than it is in Karabag is because Serbia is in Europe.
Sooner or later, the “CORRECTION” in Karabag is gonna take place. It is inevitable.
Perhaps before 2015!!
And when is the “CORRECTION” in Turkey going to take place, according to your prognosis?
Keep dreaming.
Ahmet,
It is funny how you forgot to mention that the Serbia-Kosovo conflict was resolved favoring the self-determination and not the territorial integrity. :-)
The fact is that Artsakh is free & independent after 20 years & will remain so forever.Corrupt Aliyev & his clan are still in the lowlands & any attempt of incursions are dealt with superbly.Latest Azeri casualties are more than 25 but the controlled media of Aliyevistan distorts the truth.Very soon the sultan & his mafia will be toppled by the common Azeris.Fascist police states cannot last forever.Look at the surrounding ME countries.That will be the CORRECTION.
Ahmet:
You are still at it ? still trapped in your Pan Turanic fantasyland ?
What happened to your “….Russia helped Armenia, that is why they won….” fantasy ? The Shushi example stunned you ?
You mention Serbia: let’s review.
When Yugoslavia was dismembered by Western Neocons, Russia was on her knees after the catastrophic breakup of USSR, and was not able to come to the help to their Slavic brethren.
Fast forward to 2008: the same group of Neocons tried it again in Georgia, thinking they could repeat their success in Yugoslavia.
Except this time instead of the drunkard Yeltsin in the Kremlin, they ran into the Russian patriots Medvedev&Putin team.
The Bear had woken up from her post-Soviet hibernation, was well rested, and eager for a brawl.
Georgia was crushed in 5 days by the angry Bear. Read that again: 5 days. NATO trained and NATO equipped Georgian troops ran like rabbits to their mamas in Tbilisi. Russian tanks could have easily raced to Tbilisi and cut Georgia in half if they wanted to. No country in the world could stop them. The Neocon chickenhawks who goaded Saakashvili into attacking South Ossetia disappeared into a black hole: “What ? Us ? Ee never told Misha to attack: it was his idea all along”. No Neocon is going to risk being annihilated in an all-out nuclear exchange with 10,000 warhead Russia.
Both Orthodox Christian Russia and Islamic Republic of Iran are eager to dismember the troublesome fake state of Azerbaijan – given half a chance.
Russia has already moved several combat brigades to their border with Azerbaijan: the second Iran is attacked from airbases in Azerbaijan, Bake will be bombed to rubble.
The oppressed indigenous minorities in Azerbaijan – Tats, Talishes, Udins, Lezgins, Zakhors, Luitsis, Avars, Kurds – are eager for some outside help to revolt and overthrow the foreign Asiatic Turkic Tatar oppressors.
Perhaps well before 2015.
The winds are indeed gusting for Armenia and Artsakh.
” and was not able to come to the help to their Slavic brethren.”
Just think if Russia could have helped. The Bosnian Muslims might have been eradicated. Is that what you would have wanted? Or do you only get up in arms when your people are the target of such events?
The US poses as much of a threat to Russia and Russia poses to the US. No one is taking on anyone anytime soon. Yes, perhaps “western neocons” tore up Yugoslavia, but was that a bad thing? When the USSR broke up, was being an independent democratic nation as opposed to a communist state ruled by Russia a BAD thing for Armenia? I tend to believe that while I really hate some features of capitalism it is generally better than communism. For all the things you can criticize the west on, taking down (or trying to at least) communism is not one of them.
“The oppressed indigenous minorities in Azerbaijan – Tats, Talishes, Udins, Lezgins, Zakhors, Luitsis, Avars, Kurds – are eager for some outside help to revolt and overthrow the foreign….”
Replace Azerbaijan with Yugoslavia, and the minorities with the various people of Yugoslavia, and say the foreign power was, the western neocons? What’s the difference? You hate Azeris and don’t hate Serbs?
Ahmet: Armenia was like the Bosnia of the 1990s not the Serbia. WE were the Serbia.
“The Bosnian Muslims might have been eradicated.” —“Might have” is not an acceptable argument in any discussion or debate. And no one wants to eradicate any other nation. For eradication of a particular nation, please read history of the Ottoman Empire from 1915 to 1923, preferably in non-Turkish sources. BTW, where did the Bosnian Muslims come to the European continent from, in the first place? Turks speak of Bosnian Muslims as if they are indigenous inhabitants of the Balkans.
I say to you all. Karabagh is an ancient historic land since 3rd century and beyond, proof for that is the excavations of remnants of historic monuments dating back to times when Armenians lived on that land, prosperous and strong nation. For the pleasure of Stalin donating our land to Azeris has to be remedied and recognized. The time span of there(Azeri’s) existence is only less that a 100 years. Azeris would not have dared pressing demand of ownership if they did not have the support of Turkey, anothers vicious enemy of Armenians. Please study your history, your media is misleading and damaging your own youth . So much for now.
It is imperative that our various political parties get together with the government of Armenia on national issues and co-ordinate their efforts towards a common goal, advising the general Armenian public on the way forward. Time is short and there is a lot to do.
It may be too late already. Just as it is with turkey, this country’s endearment pendulum is obviously on the side of Azerbaijan and will stay there as long as they have the oil pumping. I fully agree that we have neglected the artzax issue and are in real danger of loosing our lands yet again. Wake up armenians.
Michael Mesoian has some great suggestions.
Public relations by Armenia has been sorely lacking on Artsakh for 20 years. They need a good PR man, or woman.
Only Armenia can get the issue of Artsakh out there in the way it deserves. States have power that political parties along do not. I agree that the ARF and Diaspora should push this issue more. On the other hand, without Armenia itself speaking up loud and clear, I am not hopeful.
If the Armenian president speaks up, often, and articulately, people will listen. Armenia must change the way people think about Artsakh. Frankly, if I were not Armenian, I would think that Armenians were the victimizers and Azeris were the good guys. Armenia must fight that perception.
Gina,
The correction took place when Erdogan came to power in 2002. Turkey has never been more influential and powerful as it is under AKP.
Lilith,
It is Armenians that have been dreaming for centuries by putting Agri Dagi on everything they find. Keep dreaming!!!!
David,
Serbia lost Montenegro. Armenia will lose Karabag.
Avery
“Both Orthodox Christian Russia and Islamic Republic of Iran are eager to dismember the troublesome fake state of Azerbaijan “. You admit Russians is going to help Armenia as they did in 1994.
ARMENIA IS A STILLBORN COUNTRY THAT IS HOLDING ONTO LIFE DESPERATELY BY ARTIFICIAL BLOODLINES. (One of which is “telethons”!!!!)
Again Ahmet, if the Azeri’s could have resumed the war, that they themselves started in the first place AND LOST, they would have already done so.. The ONLY reason they don’t resume the war is because they would probably lose again or at best the regime would be toppled.
Also how do you figure Armenian lands given to the Azeri’s by Stalin automatically makes that Azeri land from here on out? Those lands belong to the Armenians..
The Armenians have weaponry and a modern trained army: Something they haven’t had for centuries. No one wants war but the Azeri’s reclaiming Karabagh is not likely..
Armenians had been living around Ararat, Van and the region, including Artsakh, long before there were even a hint of Turks there. Your entire country, and frankly you, exist because of bloody conquests and taking over other people’s lands.
You’re ignoring the self-determination aspect of Karabagh.
Ahmet,
I was wondering if you follow Middle East current affairs, if you do, you would not make a statement such as “The correction took place when Erdogan came to power in 2002. Turkey has never been more influential and powerful as it is under AKP”.
You claim that Turkey has never been more influential and powerful as it is under AKP, what type of influence are you referring to. So far Turkey has failed miserably in expanding her influence in her immediate region. Examples:
A) Syria. All that we have been hearing from Turkey since Syria crisis is ultimatums and warnings to Bashar Al Asad, if your government has some dignity she should stop making threats and warnings that cannot deliver.
B) Iraq. From the initial stages of OIF, Turkey has been trying to gain a foot hold in Iraq. According to the latest news, Turkish flags have been set on fire in Basra (south Iraq); the Turkish consulate has been stoned by angry Shia mob, not to mention the heated verbal exchanges between Nour Al Maliki (the prime minister) and Erdogan on several occasions.
C) Lebanon. Turkey had some grip on Lebanese politics for a short while. Erdogan proudly took a tour in Lebanon and visited mainly areas that have Sunni majority and old Turkish communities left from Ottoman days, conveniently ignoring Shia neighborhoods. That euphoric state was short lived when the majority Shia Lebanese Parliament toppled the government of Erdogan’s favorite boy Saad Al Hariri (the prime minister).
D) Egypt. I’m sure you are aware of the fact that Erdogan was a key player in toppling of Hosni Mubarak’s government. Erdogan assured President Obama that Turkey will have major influence in post Mubarak government. Of course, his heroic trip to Egypt was disappointing; Islamic Brotherhood reminded him that they do not have the desire in replacing Mubarak with a foreign big brother.
E) Jordan. King Abdullah could not ignore the deceptive approach of Turkish Middle East foreign policy after witnessing fall of Egypt, an ally and the backbone of Arabs. To save his country from the Arab Spring trap, King Abdullah sought protection under GCC and denied Turkey to expand her sphere of influence in Jordan.
F) Gulf countries. With the leadership of Saudi Arabia, Gulf countries reformed GCC into a defense and security pact, making a new Sunni block avoiding the Egyptian scenario and preserving some Arab influence in the region.
Failed attempts by Turkey in spreading her influence:
1. Unsuccessful mediation between Taliban and Afghan authorities
2. Unsuccessful attempt to mediate between Fatah and Hamas
3. Series of unsuccessful attempts to unite the Syrian opposition
4. Unsuccessful attempts to convince Iran to give up on Bashar Al Asad
The list is long, I’m sure you got an idea.
Ahmet, I should agree with you regarding Turkey having some influence in North Africa and Somalia. Turkey is spending millions of dollars building schools (mandating the study of Turkish language), clinics, mosques and other charitable projects in that region and hence increasing her influence.
It is appropriate to mention here other activities that Turkish charitable organizations are also involved in Somalia.
“Somalia Rally Against Turkish Government, TFG Agency Held in Mogadishu
9 MARCH 2012 Demonstrators have been carrying banners written with slogans against Somalia’s disaster management agency and aid agencies belonging to Turkish government whom the protestors accuse of evicting from the squatters in Mogadishu.”
Ahmet, Erdogan is known as a bully in the region, and nobody is taking him seriously. Turkey was able to infiltrate Arab countries by using “soft power” and trade agreements. Of course, this was before the spark of Arab Spring. Once Turkey could not mask her regional aspirations anymore, she lost her credibility, and the soft spoken Davout Oghlu with his “Zero problems with neighbors” was replaced with Erdogan bullying and generously threatening her neighbors left and right.
Dear naive Ahmet,
‘‘It is Armenians that have been dreaming for centuries by putting Agri Dagi on everything they find. Keep dreaming!!!!‘‘
Don’t worry, if Armenians could not get the mount ARARAT Kurds will get it. Either way I would be happy. As long as it does not belong to Turks I will be fine with it.
“The correction took place when Erdogan came to power in 2002. Turkey has never been more influential and powerful as it is under AKP”
This is an illusion that AKP managed to create on the Turkish people. The majority of Turks think that everybody in the world talk about Turkey because their own state-controlled media says so. But as Daron pointed out above, unfortunately Turkish foreign politics was a big failure.
Armenians still think as a small tribe in the isolated mountains of the easternmost province of Great Armenia. We have been reduced to a pile of rocks that nobody else wants. The Turks took every stream, brook, pond, lake and made sure that it was just “outside” the new borders of Ermenistan”. Everybody did a good job of it. The British and American oil interests and the Turks who wanted either to eradicate Armenia or isolate it….and this has been done magnificently. We delude ourselves with “Hemshentsis, Hidden Armenians, Kars, Ardahan, Erzurum, etc. These are all hollow dreams. The only reality in this past century is the Genocide….and the liberation of Gharabagh. The diaspora is a rapidly depleting corpse that is void of Armenian kidagtsootyoon, havakaganootyoon, panaganootyoon, kaghakatsiyagan kidagtsootyoon. We are rapidly losing the legitimate heir to our classical “krapar” language…and are being contaminated by the massive exodus from Armenia….with the accursed primitive provincial dialect of the Caucasus mountaineers…combined with an equally intolerable “spelling” that is destroying the future of our literature and research. This “filthy revision” both grammatical and spelling, CUTS OFF any connection with our ancient tongue…Krapar.
This is like separating Italian, French, Spanish and other languages from LATIN…simply by changing grammar and spelling. This is guaranteed suicide…but unfortunately our perennial jealous, vindictive and arrogant leaders and pseudo-intellectual Armenians will not yield. They believe that present day Armenia is the “Renaissance” of our nation….not realizing that with the exception of our ancient churches…everything else has been bastardized. [This guarantees that I will never get a visa]. And that my dear friends…tells you why we can never succeed. The Turks broke our skulls…and we never got the pieces back together again….
Ghevont I wish I never read your post. So depressing.
A brief history of our last 100 years.Better to count & remind ourselves of our blessings & build upon it.I have commented the here below previously…
-We did not have a republic for hundreds of years & even with the disaster of Genocide we were able to create one.This is an achievement that the Kurds could not achieve even with their superior numbers.
-In the 2nd world war, 300,000 of our youth were killed fighting the Germans.
-Thousands of us were exiled to Siberia & perished… by Stalin & Peria.
-We had the devastating earthquake & even with this disaster we were able to free ourselves from the Soviets & have independence.
-We went to war & freed Artsakh/Karabagh & this is just after the earthquake when we did not have gas,electricity,food & enough weaponry.
-We kept alive the Genocide, loss of homeland & retribution issues on the international level & succeeded.So many countries,states… have recognised the Armenian Genocide committed by the Turks.This was done mainly by the 2nd generation of the Genocide survivors in the Diaspora.
-We have such a strong Diaspora all around the world with members in highest echelons of social structures & institutions.We have a super educated class.The Diaspora is alive & kicking to the dismay of Turks who thought we’ll be lost.
-Compared to Jews,we have achieved far more, as they had to wait for 2000 years to create a nation/country.
-We have a country next to our lost lands.We are rebuilding,strenghtening against all odds be it embargoes & all other difficulties together with the lack of natural resources.
-We have the higher moral ground & we are not falsifying history,which Turks are unseccessfuly trying to falsify & misguide their own for the last 95 years.They cannot cheat & misguide the world with thousands of proofs & archives against them.By fascism & use of force they’ve cheated their own to their dismay,as truth always comes out.Eventually every nation has to face its own past as it is happening now with Dersim.Soon it will be the time to face their past with 1915 massacres.Already many articles are being written in the Turkish media.
Strong points, VTiger, except for “freeing ourselves from the Soviets”. It should read the other way around: the collapse of the Soviet Union freed us. Officially, Armenia boycotted a referendum on the future of the Soviet Union held on 17 March 1991, but in some constituencies referendum was held voluntarily and the turnout of voting there was much less than 50%. Not to forget that Armenia has flourished, in a relative way,—economically, scientifically, and culturally—under the Soviets. I hate it when history is painted in black or white colors only.
Armen,noted your comments with thanks.I personally have nothing against the Soviet Armenia.However I have very strong disgust against the Soviet Supreme with the NKR + Nakhichevan handovers to Azeris & Javakhk to the Georgians.Also the early period of the Artsakh independance war when the Soviets were fighting against us.
Sella
The possibility that a Kurdish state is formed in Turkey is no more than the Armenians can liberate Western Armenia let alone liberation Ararat. You are deluding your self by assuming Kurds live in eastern Turkey. Majority of Kurds live in the south eastern Turkey so your six vilayets will be under the Turkish occupation for ever . Obviously, Dikranekert will be under the Kurdish occupation forever. I am glad that we walk around up and down the six vilayets freely.
John the Turk,
Only time will tell, but I think Kurds will form a Kurdish state in Turkey along with Iraq. I do not know whether it will happen in 50, 100 or 200 years but it will happen eventually.
Individual Turks are frightened to go to Van,Dogubeyazit & to all the Kurdish regions let alone walking freely in the Araratian peninsula.Frightened yes & this is a common knowledge & Armenians become the protectors of Turkish friends who accompany them.Announce your Armenian origin in these regions & all doors open…
As for our sacred mountain Ararat:there are hundreds if not thousands of Armenians climbing it yearly.Young couples are exchanging vows at its summit & even some couples getting married.
As long as there’s this noble spirit which connects us to our roots,there is always hope.
“Individual Turks are frightened to go to Van,Dogubeyazit & to all the Kurdish regions let alone walking freely in the Araratian peninsula.”
I don’t know from where you have this information it but I have never ever heard such a thing. Many people around me have gone to those regions with no problem at all. In fact it’s getting more and more popular to visit Eastern Turkey.
It happened to my mount Ararat climbing companion,who had gone to Van & Dogubeyazit with his Turkish friend…after so much hesitation & convincing.Turks usually visit these parts in groups & not individually.
As one would expect with such a controversial topic, there are diverse points of view. Our people have been blessed by gift of survival. It is true that we have many challenges, but let’s keep in mind that the key to our survival has been adaptation to new realities. How else can one explain the existence of our people today after centuries of invasion, massacres,subjugation ,cultural oppression and demographic transitions.
I like the tone of VTiger. Stay focused on living for tomorrow and building a future. We have much to do to support Artsakh, but let’s not be so naive to think that all is lost because things change. Adaptation is an evolution that enables survival. Many contemporary civilizations of our chose or had alternatives forced upon them and they are now extinct… footnotes in the history of mankind. Why have we been given a different path? This why I
believe that we have been given this gift to survive. Many of us bemoan our fate as victims and miss the point. Many have tried to destroy our people….ALL HAVE FAILED…. we should rejoice in this and be optimistic.
Knowing that we are truly blessed, let’s do something with this gift. Support our republic in whatever way your heart desires…support Artsakh in the same way. But remember that the only way Talaat wins is if we stop caring.
Diversity of thought is good… as long as we respect each other…. it will give us a better solution. But take action, be involved, teach your children….take your rightful place in the long succession of generations that God has bless called Armenians.
Very well said Stepan and VTiger.
Stepan,that’s the spirit.
To Ghevont, firstly all is not lost and dont be so darned depressed. what is armenian anyway? we are diverse as diverse as they come genetically and culturally, and linguistically. my uncles in turkey never spoke a word of armenian it did not mean they were less so. they were as hayaser as they come growing up in that violent and opressive country. Furthermore who is to say local dialects of armenian or karapar is not proper. we have been speaking armenian perhaps 2000 years before the karapar was invented. think about that.
To John the turk or any other turk out there: what are you afraid of. 70 milion vs 1 mil.? what are you guys thinking armenians will come get you at night while jacking off? armenians have never gone into a turkish village and killeld people in hate yet this is what the turk has been doning for the last 1000 years. turks have no reason to fear armenia or christians. your population was once christian, embrace jejus’ love. stop destroying our churches and cemeteries. when have you seen armenians destroying mosques or muslim burrial sites?
RVDV:
{“The Bosnian Muslims might have been eradicated”} Hyperbole. Impossible in this day and age in the middle of Europe.
{“ Is that what you would have wanted?”} Nope. Why would I ?
{“ Or do you only get up in arms when your people are the target of such events?”} Nope. Armenians in the Diaspora got up in arms and joined the campaign for Darfur. It is your Turkish homeland’s leader, PM Erdogan, who coddles and protects Indicted War Criminal Sudanese leader Omar Hassan Ahmad Al-Bashir. Also formally accused of Genocide. PM Erdogan infamously said that Al_Bashir cannot be guilty of genocide, because Muslims are, supposedly, incapable of genocide.
BTW, RVDV: you have lived in the US for a long time; I do not remember any Turkish-American groups joining in the Darfur Genocide prevention/recognition campaigns – do you ?
(I personally got up in arms too: would you like me to post copies of snailmail I sent to Sens Feinstein and Boxer, and my Representative ?)
Yugoslavia; If Russia had been able to help Serbia, Serbs would not have been screwed over as badly as they got screwed over.
I was not advocating that with Russian help Yugoslavia could be maintained intact.
Yugoslavia was an artificial creation: various nationalities, ethnicities, religions were forced to live together by various Communist/Socialist regimes, starting with Tito. (I do not know if one group oppressed another: as far as I know, Tito (a Croat) was a fair, non-ethnocentric benevolent dictator.)
It was not a natural country: it would disintegrate sooner or later. Sort of like Czechoslovakia, except in that case Czechs and Slovaks split up peacefully; nobody died; everybody happy.
Serbs ended up with a very bad deal, because Neocons wanted to crush them and send a message to Russia.
Serbia could have had direct access to the Mediterranean Sea; More of the original areas of Serbia that were majority ethnic Serb could have ended up in the new Serbia; Serb majority areas of Kosovo could have been part of Serbia, instead of being under the rule and oppression of Muslim Albanian majority there.
Bosniacs, Croats, Serbs, etc definitely deserve to live in their own country and rule themselves. But Serbs got shafted, because they did not have any big guns on their side of the table, and the forces arrayed against them, chiefly NATO, were too overwhelming. Serbs resisted NATO valiantly, but exhausted Russians finally told Slobo that he was on his own. Take whatever deal is on the table, because it will get worse. And so it went.
Serbs did massacre Bosnian Muslims (Note: several separate legal bodies have adjudged the massacres to have constituted a Genocide).
So maybe the raw deal was Cosmic payback for Serbs. But if that was the case, how is it that Turks exterminated Armenians and ended up with a great deal ?
(out of about 2 million Bosnian Moslems approx 10,000 were massacred by Serbs, 0.5%; Armenians lost something like 70%-80% of our population base in Western Armenia: any comment ?)
And, again I am not lamenting the disintegration of USSR. Soviet Union did a lot of good for all the 15 Republics, but Bolshevik/Communist rule also caused a lot of irreparable damage. In our case, Armenia SSR did quite well, but under the Anti-Armenian, ethnic cleansing rule of Azerbaijan SSR, NKAO went from 95% Armenian in 1920 to 75% just before the war. Nackichevan went from about 50% Armenian to 0%. Communist Moscow could not care less. And there was nothing Armenia SSR could do without the approval of Moscow. Artsakh would eventually end up 0% Armenian if USSR was still intact.
Economically RoA is worse off now than Armenia SSR. There is a huge disparity in incomes. There is no middle class to speak of. But the future is a lot more colorful and brighter than the uniform grey under USSR.
{“You hate Azeris and don’t hate Serbs?”} Nope. I hate Anti-Armenian hatemongering, warmongering, fascist, racist leaders of Azerbaijan. But got no feelings against or for ordinary residents of Azerbaijan.
Don’t hate ordinary Turks or Turkish citizens either.
In midst of another one of our fascinating discussions, I would like offer a comment. In the recent months , I have read the posts of Avery with great admiration and respect. He is an Armenian patriot whose intellect ,knowledge and commitment are inspiring to many of us.
Your responses, Avery , are direct and fact based. You are an ever vigilant member of the Armenian nation ready to respond to lies, distortions and propaganda with the truth. I thank you for this service.
It is my hope that your talents are being applied to the greater community. You are a valuable asset to our people.
Dear Stepan,
I totally agree with you about our brother Avery. Your choice of words are excellent. Thank you very much Avery and to many of our sisters and brothers for educating the Armenian History to our friends and foes alike. You are all truly exceptional Armenians. God Bless you and your family.
Sella
Exactly, Tile will tell us however, we have got some clues with regards to what may happen.I know that people have wishful thinking but Turkey will not allow such thing to happen at any cost even if it costs millions of lives. The worst scenario is it will not hesitate to evacuate people from this area if it feels that way is the best to deal with . I personally believe that improvements regarding the language restrictions and more democratic freedoms and economic developments will ease the life of the people in the area . the government is already half way through to deal with these,for example, the premier announced yesterday the kurdish language is now being introduced if a school meet the minimum student requirement, more over more than %50 percent of the Kurdish population live in the western and southern metropolitan cities.if you were a kurd living in any part of turkey, you wouldn’t want a small land locked country and having relatives in two countries in a hostile environment let alone people will still try to emigrate to western turkey in search of better life
Ahmet:
Regarding Russia: myself and others already explained in detail of who helped and didn’t help Armenia. And who did the actual fighting. And who helped Azerbaijan. If you want to cling to your illusions about Armenia and Russia, it’s OK.
Regarding Mount Ararat: reason we put it on everything of ours is simple: it is ours. Has been physical part of us 4,500 years at least. Armenians indigenous to Armenian Highlands for about 5,000 years. Majestic Armenian Mount Ararat currently under temporary illegal custody of descendants of foreign Asiatic nomadic invaders from far, far away. Even now, if you visit Yerevan and stand on a hill, it’s so close, you can almost reach out and touch it.
Mt. Ararat is not going anywhere. It will keep. We have other important work to do at present. When the time is right, it will be returned to Armenians on a silver platter: we will not have to shed a drop of blood for it.
And talking about putting things on everything: how is it that Turks put the Moon on everything of theirs ? Did you guys invade, occupy and steal the Moon also, like everything else you guys steal and misappropriate and label it “Turkish” ?
Regarding your last paragraph (full of shouting and exclamation marks): it shows that your hatred for everything Armenian is so visceral and irrational, that it has warped your thinking. Reality has no meaning.
Stepan:
Lisbeth:
thank you for the kind words.
and none of us needs to thanks others for writing well or defending our rights in print.
All of us need to remember and thank – always – those who can no longer write because they made the ultimate sacrifice for the Armenian nation. The thousands that gave their lives to save Artsakh and Armenia.
The young Armenian soldiers that were killed in action recently protecting Armenia and Artsakh from the perennial invaders.
Those men and women stand above everybody else.
Well said Avery. Last summer, with my family, I was lucky enough to meet some of our heroic defenders of Artsakh …. army regulars in Shushi and also in Martakert. It was the high point of our trip to have the honor of shaking the hands of these young patriots… the heirs of Avarayr and Sardarabad.
Armenians have never established a sovereign state in history. Bunch of names you will give me were the serfdom under the sovereignty of the Persians, Arabs, Greeks and Turks.
The first truly sovereign state was established in 1991.
So, dont tell me these places were yours. You just lived here under others’ yoke.
By the way, what sane mentality has convinced you that less than 3 million people could win against 100 million? I mean seriously, please convince me.
So Ahmet pasha,you agree that for thousands of years we’ve lived in our homeland even under the yoke of several empires,when still your tribes were living on the Mongolian steps.Difference between these empires & yours is that yours committed rape,killings,ethnic cleansing,Genocide.I better be a serf than a criminal which I see you’re very proud of.An occupier is not the owner.It is a sucker only.
Ahmet: For sovereign proto-Armenian and Armenian states look up the ancient State of Urartu, the Empire of Tigran II the Great, various pre- and medieval Armenian kingdoms and principalities, such as the Bagratuni Kingdom with capital in Ani, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, and the Democratic Republic of Armenia in 1918-1920. After you do that, please answer the question where the Turks were before the 11th century AD and as a result of what military action and criminal deeds they could invade native peoples, colonize them, and then mass murder many of them? Does such a history make you proud of your nation?
Ahmet,
Do you think it is appropriate for you, as a descendant of central Asian nomads with a very disputable and controversial culture, heritage and national identity, to judge Armenia’s rich historical and cultural heritage and statehood in such a falsified manner?
For your information Armenia (Nairi, Hayk, Armenian kingdom) in her history has been ruled by others but has been independent as well. There is a reason we call ourselves Hay and not Armenian in the Armenian language.
The first democratic Republic of Armenia was established in 1918.
What Armenians achieved as a nation culturally, given number of people and hardships that they suffered in the hands of various invaders, it is hard to believe you will ever achieve.
Very simple facts.
1. Do Armenians have their own language and alphabet? Yes.
2. Do Armenians have their own culture, architecture, music, literature etc? Yes.
3. Did Armenians converted Turkish mosques into churches and stole cultural monuments from Turks? No.
4. Did Armenians committed genocide against Turkish people, raped, kidnapped Turkish women and children and called their offspring Armenian? No.
What about Turks?
You do not know anything about ancient Armenia because your history starts from 11th century. And even then, your country was founded on genocides, mass murder and blood.
If you digs more than 3-4 meters in the ground in Turkey chances are that you will find a mass grave. What does it tell you about your nation’s history?
John,
I told you. Bunch of names. None of which was truly independent. These territories did not belong to you. You just lived there.
VTiger,
You forgot that the Byzantian Orthodox were trying to destroy your church for being “the infidels” .Armenians wholeheartedly accepted the Seljuks to in 11th century to live in peace and get away from the Byzantian oppresion. Your grandfathers lived in peace for centuries, thanks to the Turkish tolerance.
You forget all those centuries uh?
“These territories did not belong to you. You just lived there.” –Ahmet, I refuse to accept that this is a uniquely Turkish logic. Or maybe you just happen to be one-of-the-kind Turk? Literate people know that right to a territory generally belongs to an indigenous people who inhabit it. Since you admit that Armenians lived there, then to whom those territories belong?
“None of [the Armenian states] was truly independent.” –Is this the outcome of your extensive readings into the subject or it is the acumen of your past-gazing capacity? Oxford Dictionaries: “independent” (of a country): self-governing. All of the Armenian states I mentioned–Urartu, the Yervanduni Kingdom, the Artashesian Kingdom under Tigran the Great, the Arshakuni Kingdom, the Bagratuni Kingdom, the Cilician Kingdom, and the Democratic Republic of Armenia—in certain historical periods were self-governing, i.e. independent. Even the modern-day unrecognized Armenian state of Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh) is self-governing, i.e. independent. What independent state formation did the Turks ever have before they invaded and colonized indigenous peoples of the Balkans, Asia Minor, and the Middle East into the Ottoman Empire?
Armenians had tensions with Byzantium mainly for religious discrepancies, but these tensions never resulted in Byzantine Greeks’ barbarously massacring the Armenian nation, as Turks did. It is misleading to state that Armenians “wholeheartedly” accepted Seljuk nomads who invaded the region in the 11th century. Armenians saw in Seljuks a force that could counterbalance the Byzantines in a military-political sense. This didn’t prevent the terrorizing Seljuk Turkic warriors from destroying and looting the land, and enslaving the native peoples. If this is “living in peace” to you, then yoghurt is black. Our grandfathers lived in peace for centuries thanks to their ability to conform and to concentrate on creativity in arts, sciences, architecture, business, and education, not thanks to Turkish “tolerance” that made natives people voiceless second-class millets, subjected their villages to pillages, abductions, and murders, wholesale massacres (Abdul Hamid in 1894-96 and Adana in 1909) followed by the genocidal annihilation in 1915.
Go tell fairy tales about Turkish “tolerance” to Zulus in South Africa, not to Armenians, Greeks, Arabs, Assyrians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, and Kurds who came to know the Turks firsthand.
A territory belongs to whoever controls it. America belongs to the U.S government because it has control over it.
Whine all you want. After the Ottomans now the Seljuks committed genocide uh?
Ahmet,
“A territory belongs to whoever controls it. America belongs to the U.S government because it has control over it”
According to your logic Karabakh belongs to Karabakhi Armenians since they control the territory. What correction are you talking about?
Or correction is only needed when Turks/Azeris are “victims”?
Now you understand that we’ll never ever give up until we get justice.
To dear Avery and all Hayortis!!! whether male or female.Please note and remember well. whatever is said by these turco/azeris is to unnerve us and agitate the situation.they know full well WHAT THEY ARE WHAT THEY DID!!!
PLEASE..I am else where now,later shall be God willing in Armenia/Artsakj this Summer. Note>/
NOT ONLY ARTSAKH AND KARVAJAR*kELBAJAR-TURKISH INVENTED NAME is ours but also SHAHUMIAN GEDASHEN ,NAKHIJEVAN vAN, kARS, eRZEROUM*kARIN , ETC., ETC., ETC., ETC.,
tHESE ABOE SHOULD CONSTENTLY BE MENTIONED,NAY DRIVEN HARD INTO THE MINDS OF THE ADVERSARIES.So as they understand we are not CONTENT WITH RECUPERATION OF ARTSAKH NAGORNYI KARABAGH.WE DEMAND JUSTICE AND …blood money!!!!!!!!
PLUS ABOVE LANDS THAT HAVE BEEN USURPED.tURKS CAN GO LIVE IN REST OF TURKEY TO THE WEST. WHAT’S MORE THEY KNOW IT THAT MOSTLY ANATOLIA*SO CALLED…IS OCCUPIED BY 16 MILLION KURDS!!!
DO NOT BE ON THE DEFENSIVE WITH THESE TURKS!!! QUITE THE CONTRARY..MAKE THEM UNDERSTAND WE KNOW O U R R I GH TS
BEST TO YOU ARMENS….
hama Haigagani SIRo
Well said John:
Unfortunately, you are talking to a brick wall: people who deny the AG are living in a delusional world of their own. They are beyond any reach of fact-based logical persuasion.
{“A territory belongs to whoever controls it.”}: Read that again everybody.
There you have it: the core mentality of a nomadic invader. A member of a nomadic tribe has no concept of ownership beyond his horses, his yurts, and his women. The endless Mongolian Steppe belonged to no one: wherever you pitched your yurt, that area became “yours”.
Apparently the mentality has not changed since 1000 AD amongst a large percentage of the descendants of Seljuk Turks, even after nonconsensual, forcible injection of stolen genes of sedentary peoples into their nomadic gene pool.
That is why someone in 2012 can make this statement: {“A territory belongs to whoever controls it.”}
It is quite comical that the same person who wrote that revealing sentence, also wrote this above: [Sooner or later, the “CORRECTION” in Karabag is gonna take place. It is inevitable. Perhaps before 2015!!]
Apparently the fact that Armenians control some of their own land now, i.e. most of historic Armenian Mountainous Karabagh (minus Armenian Lowlands Karabagh), means nothing for people who live in the Denialist BizzaroLand : everything is “Turkish”, even the Moon.
Denialist Turkish illogic at its best:
If you control somebody else’s land, then it is yours: no Correction required.
If, however, that same somebody takes back control of their own land, then it requires – Correction.
Avery ,
Do you live in the USA? If so, I kindly ask you to go back to your 4000 year old mother land. 4000 years ago, these territories belonged to the Indians.
Everything is Turkish, even the Moon. I wish. :-) However, the Turks can not compete with the “Everything is Armenian” syndrome. You guys think Noah was Armenian. Therefore, Jesus was Armenian. Which makes God, or the son of God, whichever you believe, is Armenian.
Oh my God, which is Armenian. :-)
Yes I live in the USA:
When every last Non-Native American leaves USA and returns to Europe and to other parts of the world, you can then kindly ask me to leave also.
.There are about 2 million or so Armenian-Americans. USA is a nation of 310 million. How is it that Denialist Turks are always worried about Armenians ?
Every Denialist Turk brings up the silly Native American non-argument: and the answer is always the same.
Don’t guys ever learn ?
And when every last one of the 200-300 thousand Turkish-Americans leaves USA, you can then kindly ask me to leave also.
And when every last one of the 5 million Turks living in Europe leaves and returns to Turkey, you can then kindly ask me to leave also.
And when all your compatriots return to Turkey, make sure you arrange for them – including yourself – to continue their journey to their historic homeland. Where would that be ? Glad you asked:
Your FM Davutoglu knows.
[Thursday, 28 October 2010
Ahmet Davutoglu, who has become the first Turkish foreign minister ever to visit Uighur Autonomous Region in China, toured historical sites in Kashgar city.
Davutoglu and an accompanying Turkish delegation arrived early Thursday in Kashgar in the extreme west of China and the extreme southwest of Uighur region.]
[Davutoglu first visited the tomb of Mahmud Kashgari and then they toured the tomb of Yusuf Has Hajib as well the 500-year-old Id Khah Mosque, the largest mosque in China.
“We are visiting the land of our ancestors,” Davutoglu said.
Following his visits, Davutoglu attended a dinner hosted in his honor by leading figures of Kashgar, a junction between two branches of the old Silk Road. The 350,000 population of the city is mostly Uighur Turks.]
Did you catch that ? you historic homeland, the homeland of your ancestors is in East Asia.
Kindly give it some consideration, Ahmet.
Venomous Tiger
“after so much hesitation & convincing.Turks usually visit these parts in groups & not individually.”
This is a typical Armenian wishful thinking. As far as I know, there is no tension exist in daily life between Kurds and Turks. People feel free to go wherever they want regardless of their ethnic identity. You can include this to Armenian as well. I made a business trip to Diyarbakir, Van, Kharput, Mus, Malatya for several weeks some 15 years ago.PKK was far more active at that time and the Army was sweeping PKK a cross the area.I didn’t feel any tension when I was in the hotels, or restaurants or street.Remember we have 700 K mix marriages and millions of mix children including pro Kurdish party leaders. Even some pro Kurdish parliament members are Turkish and they do not refrain from expressing it.The only concern people may have is being stopped and possible abduction by PKK on a road between the cities.But this is less likely than you may have an accident. There was also a tension in some towns in southern and western towns in the same period. Because large number of people were displaced from their villages and forced to emigrate.Some local towns didn’t like the newcomers because of the influx of these people in a short time.My cousins said to me at that time they will elect a mayor who will not allow Kurds to have planning permissions and business licences. I said to them you must be bas**rds. What do you think these people will east and survive? The good news is they are not complaining about Kurds any more. Apparently, the tension has subsided
Turkish cowboy John the vain,you know best & I am bluffing.Now go back & attend to your cows.
john the turk: your ilk Ahmet believes that Armenians think Noah and even Jesus Christ was Armenian thus suffering from “Everything is Armenian” syndrome. When you appear under the penname ‘john the turk’, following Ahmet’s logic, do we need to assume that that you think John (prophet John the Baptist or John the Apostle, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus) was a Turk? If you respect John the Baptist because I believe he is regarded as a prophet Yaḥya ibn Zakariya in Islam, too, then don’t you think ‘yahya the turk’ would sound more appropriate than the ludicrous ‘john the turk’?
And you failed to answer my question, RVDV: “If there was nothing illegal in conquering, as you seem to think, then why Turks react so angrily to the re-conquer by the Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, and Arabs of their native lands in the 19th-20th centuries and kicking the Turkish settlers out?”
John: no one enjoys losing land that was under their control for centuries, even if it wasn’t their land to begin with. Some feel like the Arabs betrayed the Turks in WW1, but whatever treason the allegedly committed, the consequent British and French exploitation made them “pay” for a nonexistent crime.
Avery,
You refuse to go back to your homeland from North America, land of the Native Indians.
How can you ask Turks go back to Central Asia?
You need to set an example to the Turks. Then We will talk about it.
No you Turks do: First occupiers need to leave first.
That’s how it works. Let me give you a simple example, so you can understand how it works: when you go into a restaurant, you don’t get to stay there longer, because you got there first. The ones that are seated first, will be asked to leave first. When your 2-3 hours are up, you will be asked to leave, so new guests can be seated. Understand ?
Descendants of Seljuk Turks have been occupying the lands of others and greatly benefiting from that illegal occupation for centuries.
You have overstayed your welcome. Time to return to the lands of your ancestors.
So when you and Denialist Turks that think like you vacate Western Armenian lands that you “control”, I will leave USA and return to the lands of my ancestors.
Promise.
Avery: what, in your opinion, makes it illegal? What 11th century law did the Turks commit?
“You have overstayed your welcome. Time to return to the lands of your ancestors.”
“lands of your ancestors” : were Turks not nomads originally? Nomad- “A member of a people who have no permanent abode and travel from place to place to find fresh pasture for their livestock.” What ancestral homeland? If Turks have any homeland, it is Anatolia.
RVDV:
read the entire chain of posts, starting with your fellow countryman Ahmet’s “CORRECTIONS” post to understand why I wrote certain things.
When Denialists come here and talk about some kind of “correction” regarding NKR, I am not shy about returning, shall we say, the ‘favour’.
In another thread, you got really upset when you incorrectly assumed what you imagined I thought regarding Bosnian Muslims.
I am sure you understand when one of your fellow Turks talks about ‘correction’ regarding NKR, after what transpired there, starting with Sumgait, that I am not going to sit still. Neither am I going to play nice.
regarding “ancestral homeland”: read the post where I inserted the quote from Turkish FM Davutoglu: you might want to ask him what does the phrase {“We are visiting the land of our ancestors,” } means.
Avery:
I did, and if I didn’t agree with any of your points regarding the “correction” issue I would have let you know :). I don’t blame you for getting angry. But from what I’ve seen from Armenia and Azerbaijan’s attitude, I have the impression that while neither would object to a war, neither wants to start it (though one side seems to be trying and provoking the other). I do not blame you for your “i will not sit still” attitude, but I would advise against it. Armenia “won” the NKR war. And what did the Armenians who died in the war die for? A de-facto independent nation that not even Armenia recognizes- or a liberation as some call it. Was it a victory- yes I suppose it was, would I call it decisive- not until I see no longer it listed inside the lines of the territory of Azerbaijan (de jure).
Armenia can “return to favor” if it so pleases, but if my country was surrounded by enemies, I had a population growth issue topped off with migration, and my economy was struggling in part due to economic sanctions by said enemies, I’m not sure liberating ancestral lands would be priority number one for me. What good is having expanded ancestral territory if there is no one to live on it?
I think, RVDV, it is somewhat cynical to allude that if there was no international legal order back in the 11th century, then invasion of the lands of others, forceful settlement there, Turkification of others’ cultural, artistic, architectural, religious, and linguistic achievements, colonization of native peoples into second-class millets, and ultimately their mass physical annihilation was permissible. Well, then in the 20th century there already was an established international legal order, but it didn’t prevent Turkey from occupying Cyprus. If there was nothing illegal in conquering, as you seem to think, then why Turks reacted so angrily to the re-conquer by the Greeks, Bulgarians, Serbs, and Arabs of their native lands in the 19th-20th centuries and kicking the Turkish settlers out?
Nomads. Had Seljuk Turks only traveled from place to place to find fresh pasture for their livestock, it would have been somehow understood. But Seljuks came in Asia Minor in hordes, killing and looting, destroying churches, monasteries, and schools, burning ancient manuscript repositories, scorching earth. They invaded lands that never belonged to them and settled there stealing Muslim religion, Arabic script and language, Persian architecture and arts, Byzantine Greek and Armenian culture along the way. Now one of their descendants, i.e. yourself, proudly announces: “If Turks have any homeland, it is Anatolia”, whereas the very geographic and historic name ‘Anatolia’ is not Turkish, it’s Greek Anatolē, meaning east or sunrise.
Ancestral homeland of the Turks, that is the place of their ethnogenetic origin, is the steppes of Central Asia.
John:
The difference between 1071 and 1974 Cyprus is that I never said the Cyprus invasion was legal- it was illegal, and no one did anything to stop it. There is no point of a legal system if you cannot enforce the laws upon those who break it- hence why the UN is useless. In the past, I don’t see conquests as illegal- but that doesn’t mean I don’t find it morally wrong.
Regarding: “But Seljuks came in Asia Minor in hordes, killing and looting, destroying churches, monasteries, and schools, burning ancient manuscript repositories, scorching earth.”
that’s generally what conquest implied a thousand years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_the_Turkish_people#Haplogroup_distributions_in_Turks
Check out this link John, we may have been outsiders a thousand years ago, but today…
I stand by what I said about if Turks had any homeland it is Anatolia, just as another nomadic people, the Hungarians, if they have a homeland, it is Hungary- not the Ural Mountains.
RVDV: If in the past conquests, as you see it, were not legally reprehensible because no international legal order existed, it means that in the modern times we are expected to accept them as legal? In the past military invasions into the lands of native inhabitants were morally wrong; in the modern times they are both morally and legally wrong. And your using of the term ‘conquest’ in no way softens the explicit invasion of Seljuk Turks into Asia Minor in the 11th century. Oxford English Dictionaries: ‘conquest’ noun: “the subjugation and assumption of control of a place or people by use of military force”.
“killing and looting, destroying churches, monasteries, and schools, burning ancient manuscript repositories, scorching earth […] is generally what conquest implied a thousand years ago.” I thought you said that poor Seljuk nomads only traveled from place to place to find fresh pastures for their sheep. Now you seem to agree that their “travel” wasn’t so much nomadic in the classical sense of the word, but explicitly militaristic and destructive. And if you accept this, then do you still think that Byzantine Greek Anatolia (meaning: east) inhabited mostly by Armenians is the “homeland” of Turks? For us and other ancient nations that inhabited Asia Minor, Turks have always been, are, and will always be outsiders, because a petty thousand years of your unwelcomed presence in the region represents only one-fourth to one-sixth of the total duration of historical presence of Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks.
And I reiterate that even the name of the region that Turks consider their “homeland” is Greek, and thus cannot by definition be Turkish. If we accept that Hungarians are the descendants of Turkic Khazars, then their homeland (Oxford English Dictionaries: ‘homeland’ noun: a person’s or a people’s native land) is in the Ural Mountains. The difference between the Hungarians and the Turks is that Khazars moved westward from Ural and areas adjacent to the northern part of the Caspian Sea peacefully. I read a wonderful book by Arthur Koestler “The Thirteenth Tribe”, where he shows how peaceful was the migration of the Khazars westwards into Eastern Europe in the 12th and 13th centuries. Compare this with the movement of the Turks into Asia Minor, if you will.
John: “And if you accept this, then do you still think that Byzantine Greek Anatolia (meaning: east) inhabited mostly by Armenians is the “homeland” of Turks?”
Yeah pretty much.
” The difference between the Hungarians and the Turks is that Khazars moved westward from Ural and areas adjacent to the northern part of the Caspian Sea peacefully.”
Okay, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were a nomadic people does it?
“I thought you said that poor Seljuk nomads only traveled from place to place to find fresh pastures for their sheep.”
No I just gave the standard definition of a nomad, and how nomads don’t have a clearly defined “homeland”.
“‘homeland’ noun: a person’s or a people’s native land)”
Well for a thousand years Turks have been native to Anatolia- making it their homeland.
“For us and other ancient nations that inhabited Asia Minor, Turks have always been, are, and will always be outsiders, because a petty thousand years of your unwelcomed presence in the region represents only one-fourth to one-sixth of the total duration of historical presence of Armenians, Assyrians, and Greeks.”
Your sentiment about Turks being outsiders changes nothing. So you can continue being bitter about it, or opt to make peace with the reality that Turks are here to stay. Believe what you want, but there facts remain the facts, the myths remain the myths.
RVDV: That the Hungarians moved westward from Ural and the Caspian region peacefully indicates that, if they were the descendants of the Khazars, they were not nomads in the classical sense of the word. Semi-nomads at best, because Khazars developed unique civilization, statehood, the military, before converting to Judaism in the 10th century and disappearing from world maps afterwards. The Hungarians’ movement westward wasn’t nomadic per se because they didn’t travel to a new place to find fresh pastures for their livestock; they were escaping the expansion of Christian Russians in the northeast and Muslim Arabs in the south. Besides, Hungarian ancestors didn’t arrive to Europe to scorch the earth, as Seljuk Turks in Asia Minor.
“Homeland’ noun: a person’s or a people’s native land. Well for a thousand years Turks have been native to Anatolia- making it their homeland.” –From the historical perspective even a thousand years doesn’t make an alien nation native to a particular place, more so militaristic, intruding nation. Oxford English Dictionary: ‘native’ adjective: “of the INDIGENIOUS inhabitants of a place”. Why can’t you accept the reality that the current “homeland” of the Turks is a forcibly acquired lands of others-made-homeland, not native or indigenous one? You say: facts remain facts, and myths remain myths. Is Seljuk intrusion into the area a myth?
“Your sentiment about Turks being outsiders changes nothing.” It is not my sentiment; it is a historical fact that Turks themselves can’t deny. Look up Avery’s reference to what FM Davutoghlu said when visiting the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region of China.
Can stating a historical fact be bitter? If you admit that facts remain facts, and myths remain myths, please enlighten us as to where the native (indigenous), not forcibly acquired, homeland of the Turks is. Refrain from the historically Greek toponym ‘Anatolia’ this time, please, not to insult our common intellect.
On the other hand, gaytzag, why not enlighten denialist Turks reminding them of their origin and how they popped up in Asia Minor?
“You guys think Noah was Armenian”. –No, Ahmet, we guys don’t think Noah was Armenian. It is only that one of the hypotheses on the origin of Armenians links us to one of the sons of Noah, Japheth. Armenians are considered one of the nations associated with Japheth, others are, for example, the Celtic people or the Germanic people. Also, with Armenia an ancient biblical toponym of ‘Ashkenaz’ is associated because Japheth came to live in Ararat and ‘Ashkenaz’ is believed to be ancient Armenia. The term ‘Japhetic’ is also sometimes applied to what became known as the Indo-European language group.
“Therefore, Jesus was Armenian”. –Some believe Jesus is a Jew. Others believe Jesus, as Son of God, has no particular ethnicity, because God by definition has no ethnicity. It’s like saying Allah is an Arab or, horrendously, a Denialist Turk.
“God, or the son of God, whichever you believe”. –We believe in Holy Trinity that does not separate God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit from each other. But I believe for a Turk like you it should be too intellectually and spiritually burdensome to make out the concept of Trinity.
“I kindly ask you to go back to your 4000 year old mother land.” –I’m ready. Would you kindly relieve your country’s eastern provinces from Kars to Cilicia of the alien Turkish presence so Armenians could go back where they’ve lived for millennia before being barbarously slaughtered in 1915?
Avery, you put a smile on my face! :-)
You refuse to go back to your homeland from where you live, the USA, because your homeland is under the occupation of the Turks.
Let me give you some options that are NOT under “the Turkish occupation”. Therefore, you can easily revert to your motherland.
Yerevan, Gyumri, Sevan, Vanadzor.
Choose one option, I will pay for your airfare! (I would pick Sevan. Beautiful lake! view)
Do you hesitate to give up your automatic transmission, 6 cylinder SUV, 3.50$/gallon gasoline, white chocolate mocha? :-)
Again, when every last Turk, including yourself, living outside Turkey, returns to Turkey, we can discuss my return to beautiful Armenia.
Fair enough ?
So start saving money to pay for the airfare of millions of Turks who escaped the supposed prosperity of Turkey to live in the real prosperity of the Christian West.
BTW: in a survey done in Jan 2012, only 4% of Turks living in Germany were determined to return to supposedly prosperous Turkey. 77% were planning to stay in Germany permanently. I wonder why ?
Averyjan,
You really dont know why you want Turks out of Turkey.
You dont want to settle in Armenia, the independent home of the Armenians in the world.
the bottom line is you can not renounce your sweet life in America.
What will change if Turks are out of Turkey that you will go back?
The difference is Turks in Germany do not complain their homeland is under occupation. They have no reason to go back.
But, you have a cause yet still refuse to go back to Armenia.
.
{“ Averyjan, You really dont know why you want Turks out of Turkey.”}
Of course I do, Ahmet jan:
I want Denialist Turks like you out of occupied Western Armenia, because you and your Denialist kind are illegally occupying somebody else’s land: your invading ancestors exterminated 2 million of my indigenous ancestors who had lived on Armenian land for about 5,000 years, so that they could steal their land (and other valuable liquid and illiquid properties).
You and your Denialist kind are a menace and an existential threat to Armenia and Armenians who live in South Caucasus.
And just to be clear: I got no problem being neighbors with normal, peaceful Turks.
Nobody expects Turks and others who have lived in Asia Minor for centuries to just up and leave.
Just the ones who think like you: who talk about ‘correction’ in NKR.
Those tens of thousands like you who marched in Taksim Square with placards that said “All Armenians are Bastards”; “Today Taksim tomorrow Yerevan”; “We will bury you on Mount Ararat”.
Those Turks.
Avery,
Ahmet should learn a bit of international*in this case European history.An example ,on top of yours to him.
North African Khalipohates occupied Spain for 6 centuries…..pretty much as the ottoman Turks in western Armenia…
then a spanish pricess united all the rivalling spanish princes,secretly got well armed and then DROVE THE OCCUPIERS OUT OF THE IBERIAN PENINSULA!!!
I happend to scroll up and down on this thread and lo some John the turk has mentioned my name in conjunction with same.
however, he has mixed up Noah*short of Noah’s Ark, with the present.Prevailing on the international political scene is Nagornyi karabagh ,for us Armenian ARTSAKH.Not too far bac k in 1920’s the Kemalists occupied our Western Provinces, Kars,Ardahan,VAN*where lake Van is and Akhtamar Monastery/where coupld yrs ago Mass was permitted by Istanbulla patriarchate,indeed so authorized by the Erdoghan govt.Times change Ahmet and John,U.S. may further “suggest”” to great Turkey to cede more such acts,shall we say……forget about Noah’s Ark. Let talk Turkey….
RVDV:
We have covered the issue of recognition of NKR by RoA elsewhere extensively: I am sure you remember. Briefly, RoA is doing the right thing. There are lots of benefits derived from non-recognition, and lots of issues connected with recognition. When the time is right, it will be done. De jure or not, RoA has got NKR’s back: Azerbaijan knows it. And that’s all that matters right now.
You should also remember this example I gave previously: Turkey recognizing TRNC has had zero effect internationally. And Turkey certainly has far more clout than RoA (being a member of NATO, larger economy, larger population, etc). Also, I believe by recognizing TRNC, Turkey has boxed herself in: no room to maneuver. I see no benefit that Turkey has derived from recognizing TRNC, and the same with TRNC.
Regarding {“I’m not sure liberating ancestral lands would be priority number one for me.”}: I am not sure which particular ancestral lands of ours you are referring to. But you are correct: at this time RoA, Artsakh, and Armenian Diaspora have far more important work to do in RoA and NKR. Peace and stability is what both RoA and NKR need for the next several years. Neither RoA nor NKR are looking for trouble. (hence their measured, restrained responses to Azeri initiated attempts to drag NKR and RoA into a mini-war)