Opinion
Chorbajian: The Meaning of the Protocols for the Future of Karabagh
By Levon Chorbajian
While neither protocol mentions Nagorno-Karabagh by name, there are provisions in the protocols with dangerous and permanent implications for Karabagh and Armenia. Three highly problematic provisions appear in the Protocol on the Establishment of Diplomatic Relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey.
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Firstly, and let’s be honest and clear about it, one can not talk about a peaceful co-existence without the fundemental principles of recognition and respect for international borders of your neighbors. Armenia’s actions and statements are proof why this principle is a fundemental one. The alternative is a state of war. Armenia needs to make a choice.
“The right to self-determination is a strong black letter law principle in international law…The two—self-determination and territorial integrity—have absolutely equal weight in the law.”
Hardly. It is a dubious and inapplicable concept and hardly a well-defined law and hardly recognized or formalized as in a state’s borders, flag etc.. Pretending that Wilsonian pronciples are well and alive? No lessons learned from WWI? Where do you draw the line, and who defines the line? Why not apply it to other ethnic groups in Armenia and any other place, Russia, Bulgaria, Crimea, Chechneya, Israel, Kashmir, Cyprus, etc..
“The first granted to Turkey three-fifths of the territory of the first Republic of Armenia, while Kars ratified that allocation and set the borders between Armenia and Georgia, and Armenia and Azerbaijan, in addition to Armenia and Turkey. There are several factors that call the legitimacy of these treaties into question”
Questioning the national borders defined and recognized by well established protocols is not the way to have good or any relations with your neighbors. Maybe we can agree on this. All treaties are signed under duress, all parties apply all the leverages they have and come to an understanding. If the terms are not really acceptable, and one party thinks they can do better, then you go back to the battlefield as Turks did after Sevres. Those lands never belonged to a Republic of Armenia, they never were a majority in the whole region (Eastern Anatolia) or part of it, which could not even sustain its own existence more than a few years. The alternative to recognition and respect of national boundries is war.
It is childish and dangerous to still maintain a dream of Greater Armenia at the expense of all others, while blaming Turks for not accomodating it.
One simply can not have it both ways. Even children know this, what is Mr. Corbaciyan’s excuse?
Murat, you are very much mistaken. To name a few Van, Erzerum, Sivas, Mush, Bitlis, Diyarbakir and Istanbul had large populations of Armenians. Check out some info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Armenian_population
You cannot say Armenians did not live in those areas. What was the population density percentages compared to Kurds, Greeks, Jews or Turks? And don’t try to bundle Kurds with Turks to increase the numbers as Muslims. And by the way, a contract agreed to under duress is not legitimate. If someone holds a gun to your head, regardless of your true intentions, you’ll sign anyway.
And by the way, It’s Dr. Chorbajian. He’s a Professor at UML. Check it out,
http://www.uml.edu/College/arts_sciences/Sociology/Faculty/Levon_Chorbajian.html
What are your credentials?
Antranig, I am not mistaken at all. I have a habit of making sure I have the facts straight before making statements in public. You should do the same.
Firstly, I never contradicted the fact that there were significant Armenian populations in the whole of Anatolia, and especially in the Eeast. Armenians are an essential part of Turkey’s history and culture. The comment was about having a majority in any particular vilyet or region. Majority concept was important since it was tied (by Armenians mostly) to the right of self-determination and Wilson principles etc. . The most concentrated Armenian population was in Van, and claims have been made by some that Armenians were a mjority there. They were not. Not even in the city itself. Not even close.
“Population estimates for the Van city itself are more difficult. There were extensive population movements in and around the city as the economic and political situation deteriorated rapidly before at the dawn of the World War I. Ottoman population count at the time recorded 79,000 Muslims and 34,000 Armenians in the Van district, which included the immediate surrounding areas too. The city of Van’s Armenian population was about 30,000 people in the fall of 1914.” (from Wikipedia)
I can provide more detailed breakdown for all minorities and references, but this is not the place.
If we take your definition of legitimacy, then humankind would have to fight all the wars in history over and over and again. If the gun was put to the head of the Turks at the time (it was actually) I wonder if you would have had the same opinions about this issue of legitimacy. Let us at least pretend to be fair.
You could call me Dr. too if that makes feel better about my credentials.
incidentally,
does anyone know how much armenia sold for?
and who was the highest bidder?
the united states?
turkey?
perhaps israel?
Does Dr Murat take into account the Hamidian massacres of 1893-96 in purveying his skewed statistics? Does he not want to pretend to be fair and admit that a) they were designed to produce the sort of demographic results that he now quotes as given?; and b) they helped to produce those results and Armenians (at least according to official Hamidian-Ottoman statistics) were no longer a majority in what had been Armenia (the 6 Vilayets) for 3 millennia? Let me remind Dr Murat that 300,000 Armenians were massacred during this period and a huge number also fled to Russian Armenia to save their skins. In any case from 1870s an active Hamidian policy of double and treble taxation of the Armenian peasantry and lawlessness (Kurds were licensed to do with Armenian honour and property as they pleased) was deliberately designed to “encourage” Armenians to leave the 6 Armenian Vilayets and many did. So your statistics were produced by deliberate and designed massacres compunded by further Ottoman manipulations of the figures since even after the massacres Armenians were still in majority in most of those Vilayets. Hence for example Muslims v Armenians rather than Kurds and Turks v “Christians” which would in some cases have included Greeks and Assyrians, etc.
Mr. Nazaryan, firstly I have no statistics. I merely quoted well documented numbers which are consistent with Armenian Church counts, Ottoman census records and numbers from Red Cross and other missions. These are well investigated and studied figures. What gave you the impression that I made these numbers up? You make statements that I doubt you can back up.
Secondly, 1893-96 rebellions, as it is known in history, were the reason for the armed conflict, not the other way around. There have been numerous such uprisings after the Berlin Treaty, well armed and directly and overtly supported by Russia, with the express purpose of seperating a large chunk of Anatolia from Ottomans. These are the facts, not mine, but can be found in Armenian records.
Obviously you claim Armenians had legitimate reasons for rebelling and fighting, then you can certainly extend the same logic to those who felt that was a mortal threat to their very existence. I am not in a position to moralize anyone here even as someone whose family tree was cut from the roots in Bitlis during 1916. The fact is people who were trying to establish Greater Armenia were trying to do it where they were a minority.
There were population movements due to wars and conflicts all around the Ottoman borders. They were under attack for over a century. You only mention what happened to Christians, but conveniently ignore for example that after the Russo-Turkish war of 1878, when Russia invaded the Kars region, many of the Muslims there were driven out and replaced by Armenians of Russian Armenia. Russians have changed the demographics of the Caucasus consdierably and deliberately over a century. Tolstoy even wrote about it. A process that continues to this day. Ever heard of Great Circussian Migration? What happened to Crimeans? Chechens, Lezgis? Not to mention the general ethnic cleansing of the Muslims that began in the Balkans that continue to this day. I will not even bring up ethnic cleansing of Karabag.
Maybe something good will come out of this historical commison, there is much people do not know about history which they think they know well. Propaganda is not real or history, however elaborate it may be.
Dear all,
great Turkey, so amplified by “allies” has to realize and admit facts.
History shows-proves that “conquistadores” conquerers also loose by and by…
Ottomans,i.e., turkic tribes, moguls etc., did conquer Western Armenia to further west-Asia Minor entirely,rooting out from millenia old people living there.Prof Richard G. Hovhanissian -mutely- but adamantly showed it at a couple of Symposium in FL ,last year relics of Armenian pieces picked upo in Siva, erzeroum Erzincan etc.,which goes to show-and did show on large sacreen b ehind him, at FAU(many turks participating) that ARMENIANS HAD LIVED THERE:..
This is not the question.Then pop up some of turks present and utter such phrases as usual” but Armenians stab bed us on the b ack, uniting with Russians etc.,, egtc.,”
Right? no not at al..INCORECT and I proved it there and then saying the following standing up, while many many turned b ack to see who this was.. I went on..
“I am from Europe, few here present know thatg another nation in furthermost Europe had been conquered and was ruled for over 600 years b y North African khaliphates,Spain(España)…
but then a spanish pricess, united the spanish princes in secret meetings, got well armed and eventually drove the occupiers OUT!!!!
This ,unfotunately would not happen in Western Armenia-the few arms smuggled in from the Caucaes were not enough and Ottoman Turkey kept vigilance on population-according to my father-not allowing them to even carry “zmeli”s ,paper cutting knives…
Ab ove goes to prove that any people have the GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO Independence!!!!!
So why beat around the bush? yes we did all we could but did not succeed TOTALLY.
thank God at least we attained oNE OBJECTIVE HAVE AN ALBEIT SMALL BUT INDEPENDENT ARMENIAN REPUBLIC…LDET US STICK TO IT,WHETHER MAOIST, COMMUNIST, nZHDEHIST OR WHATVER. iT IS THERE.bELIVE YOU ME NOT SO EASY TO DEAL WITH.iT JUST PARTICIPATED IN THE FIVE FOLD cis COUNTRIES pACT RATIFYING A TEN BILLION DOLLAR WORTH ARMAMENT REFURBISHMENT.ALL FICE STAND TOGETHER FOR ANY AGGRESSION.WHAT IS MORE NO PETROL PRODUCING CO.IN THE REGION(SUPPORTED BY THEIR GOVERNMENGTS) WILL ALLOW AGVGRESSION TO HAPPEND THERE.lET aLIEV SON SAY ,THREATEN WHATEVER HE WISHES….
hAMA hAIGAGANI siRO,
gAYDZ