An Interview with Stefan Ihrig
Special for the Armenian Weekly
The following interview with Stefan Ihrig, author of Justifying Genocide: Germany and the Armenians from Bismarck to Hitler (due out in December 2015), was conducted by Edward Kanterian, Senior Lecturer in Philosophy at the University of Kent. Ihrig is the Polonsky Fellow at the Van Leer Jerusalem Institute.
Edward Kanterian—Mr. Ihrig, we know that Mussolini was a major role model for Hitler. But it is much less known that Kemal Atatürk, the founder of the modern Turkish Republic, was another major source of inspiration for Hitler. You have recently published a book exploring this. Why was Hitler interested in Atatürk?
Stefan Ihrig—It all goes back to the early 1920’s. Germany was still in shock about losing the war and afraid of a punitive peace treaty imposed by the Entente. In a mood of nationalist depression, events began to unfold in Anatolia that stirred the passion and dreams of German nationalists. Under Mustafa Kemal [Atatürk] the Turks were resisting their own “Turkish Versailles”—the Treaty of Sèvres. They took on all of the Entente as well as the Greek Army and even defied their own government in Constantinople. What was happening in Anatolia was like a nationalist dream-come-true for many in Germany. German nationalists, and the Nazis especially, thought that Germany should copy what the Kemalists were doing. Hitler was very much inspired by Atatürk and the idea of the “Ankara government” in his attempt to set up an alternative government in Munich in his Beerhall Putsch of 1923. Retrospectively, in 1933, he called Atatürk and the Kemalists his “shining star” in the darkness of the 1920’s. The Nazis and Hitler, in a political sense, had grown up with Turkey and Atatürk. It was a fascination that would not go away and transformed into something of a cult in the Third Reich.
E.K. —So the main attraction was the fact that Atatürk had resisted the Entente?
S.I. —Yes, resisting the Entente and revising a Paris peace treaty fascinated the Nazis. But this was not all. There was also the fact that Turkey had “rid itself” of most of its minorities, first of the Armenians during World War I, and second of most of the Greeks in the Treaty of Lausanne population exchange. And finally, for the Nazis, what was happening in Turkey in the 1920’s and 1930’s was a successful restructuring and reconstruction of the country along nationalist/racial lines. For them it was an example of what a purely national state could achieve under a strong leader.
E.K. —The Turkey which had “rid itself” of the Armenians was of course the Turkey of the Young Turks, whose regime ended in 1918 and in which Atatürk played only a minor role. So the Nazis’ fascination also extended to the Young Turks? Presumably they were attracted by both the Young Turks’ and Atatürk’s Turkocentric conception of the Turkish state, which excluded the multiethnic society that had existed hitherto in the Ottoman Empire? Is there any direct link between the demographic and exclusionary policies of Atatürk and that of the Nazis?
S.I. —The Young Turks were not very important for the Nazis. But “ethnic cleansing” and the Armenian Genocide before the War of Independence was, for the Nazis, a major precondition for the success of Ataturk in that war. And the expulsion of the Greeks was a second precondition, in the Nazi view, for the further success of rebuilding Turkey along national lines. Both were for the Nazis something of a “package deal.” What was important for them was that the ethnic minorities—which they and other German nationalists perceived to be like “the Jews”—were gone. In the Nazis’ view of the New Turkey, all this would not have been possible had Turkey not “rid itself” of the minorities. In this fashion, the Nazis and other German nationalists were able to portray Atatürk’s New Turkey as something of a test case of large-scale ethnic-racial reconstruction—a test case that for them signalled the power of such a new national state purged of minorities; a test case that not only re-affirmed their own beliefs in the power of ethnically cleansed states but showed various ways of how to achieve this.
E.K. —To what extent was the Kemalist state ideology an inspiration to the Nazis? Presumably they ignored the fact that Atatürk aimed to build a republic in which the parliament, representing the people, was the main source of power?
S.I. —The Nazi vision of Atatürk’s New Turkey was a highly selective one. Almost everything that conflicted with Nazi ideals and goals was either downplayed or ignored. The emancipation of women was one such topic; it was mentioned in passing but not deemed more noteworthy. Atatürk’s rather peaceful foreign policy was purposefully misunderstood. When it comes to the state of government under Atatürk, the Nazis saw a powerful leader governing through a one-party system, which for them was the only viable alternative to what they perceived as decadent Western democracy.
E.K. —What was the Nazis’ attitude towards the “Armenian Question” in Turkey?
S.I. —In the Nazi discussion of the Turkish War of Independence the Armenians did not play a major role. Again, the Nazis had their own vision of Atatürk’s rule and times. What was paramount for them was post-1923 Turkey, which they portrayed as something of a mono-ethnic paradise. They simply refused to see any remaining minorities, such as the Kurds, for example, and the conflicts that still existed within the Turkish state. What made the Armenians, on the other hand, so important for the Nazi discourse on Atatürk’s New Turkey was the specific German tradition of seeing them as “the Jews of the Orient.”
E.K. —Can you give some examples how Armenians were seen as “the Jews of the Orient” in the German discourse? Was this something that happened only after the First World War or even before?
S.I. —This German tradition has its beginnings in the late 19th century. Around the same time as modern racial anti-Semitism gained ground, a perception of the Armenians as racially similar or equivalent to the Jews of Central Europe as portrayed in anti-Semitic discourse was put forward. The Armenians were typically described as exploitative merchants praying upon the kind and hard-working Turkish population. This perception mainly focused upon the perceived parasitic, treacherous, and non-productive behavior of the Armenians. That Armenians carried out all kinds of crafts and labor—that many were, for example, farmers—was simply ignored in these discourses. In the growing racial and racialist literature from the late-19th century up until the 1930’s, the Armenians were portrayed as a parent or sister race of the Jews. Often they were even described as “worse than the Jews.” This of course provides for a special German background to the perception of the events of 1915/16 that is particularly chilling in light of the further trajectory of German history.
E.K. —This brings us to your new book, which you have just completed, Justifying Genocide, which will be published by Harvard University Press later this year. How did you come to write this book?
S.I. —When carrying out my research on the Nazis and Turkey, I came across a large debate about the Armenian Genocide. This debate took place in the early 1920’s and is totally forgotten today. Yet, it was one of the largest genocide debates of the 20th century. It truly was a “genocide” debate, even before Raphael Lemkin coined the term, because it was all about intent and extent of the “annihilation of a nation.” I tried to reconstruct this debate and to find out why it lasted so long. You have to envisage a four-and-a-half years long debate including the first post-war discussions about what had happened, the heated reception of the publication of Foreign Office documents on the Armenian Genocide in 1919 already, a strong back and forth between those condemning what happened as a “murder of a nation” and others denying this. Furthermore there were assassinations, first of Talat Pasha in 1921 and then of another two prominent Young Turks in 1922, all of which took place in Berlin and were much discussed in the press of the time.
I wanted to see where all the discursive building blocks employed in these discussions came from, and thus I explored the German relationship with the Ottoman Armenians since the late 1870’s. As it turns out, since Bismarck’s time already the Armenians were assigned a very cynical role in German foreign policy: They were regularly sold out in order for Germany to gain political advantages and a more favorable position in the Ottoman Empire. This continuous selling out of another Christian people led to German discourses justifying mass murder already in the 1890’s, culminating in the propaganda during World War I as well as with shocking justificationalist essays during the debate of the early 1920’s.
E.K. —Hitler’s rhetorical question “Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” made in August 1939, apropos the war of annihilation which he was about to start in the east, is well known. This suggests that Hitler was at least inspired by the Armenian Genocide. In your new book, you aim to demonstrate that the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide were indeed much more connected than previously thought. How exactly?
S.I. —The ongoing debate about recognition and denial has held the Armenian Genocide in a hostage situation for almost a century and has also led to it being often only a marginal footnote of broader European and world history in our accounts and analyses of the time. Yet, it was immensely important at the time, also and perhaps especially so in Germany. Not only was Germany closely connected to it as a state and an ally of the Ottomans, but so were many of its people as diplomats, officers, and soldiers. The fact that the Ottoman Empire had garnered so much attention in the German public and political sphere already before 1915 also connected Germany to the Armenian Genocide more closely. And finally, the great German genocide debate of the early 1920’s brings the whole matter within a mere decade of Hitler’s ascension to power. The Armenian Genocide was both chronologically and geographically speaking much closer to Germany and the Third Reich than is usually alleged; my book illustrates this in many facets.
‘As it turns out, since Bismarck’s time already the Armenians were assigned a very cynical role in German foreign policy: They were regularly sold out in order for Germany to gain political advantages and a more favorable position in the Ottoman Empire. This continuous selling out of another Christian people led to German discourses justifying mass murder already in the 1890’s, culminating in the propaganda during World War I as well as with shocking justificationalist essays during the debate of the early 1920’s.’
E.K. —There are not many German historians who have researched the Armenian Genocide. What might be the reasons for this?
S.I. —The topic continues to be one riddled with difficulties and potential dangers. If you are a historian working on Turkish and Ottoman history, you did not want to offend the very people you needed in order to get access to your sources. Another reason was that many of the German sources from the military archives were lost during World War II. Then there was the suspicion that broader discussions of the Armenian Genocide and its relation to Germany could be used to relativize the Shoah. And finally, the official Turkish denialist campaign has conveyed the lasting impression or rather has sown the confusion suggesting that the topic is just too difficult and unapproachable. However, in recent years many have worked on the German side, providing new studies on particular aspects and also providing new narratives. I am sure we will reach a critical mass in the field soon which will lead to a broader re-evaluation of the Armenian Genocide within German, European, and world history.
Thank you for the very insightful interview. In my readings about German involvement in Turkey, I came across information about how the Germans were spying on the Armenians, for Abdul Hamid, throughout the Ottoman Empire. Also, that to placate the sultan, almost nothing was written in German newspapers about the Hamidian massacres. When Abdul Hamid’s rule came to an end, he happily turned over all of the information to Talaat that was gathered by German spies. I certainly will be buying Stefan Ihrig’s book because of this interview conducted by Edward Kanterian.
Ellen Sarkisian Chesnut
Author: “Deli Sarkis”
The only differences between Turks and Germans is their mentality of today’s way of thinking…Germans accepted the wrong policy of Hitler, where today’s Turkey can’t abandon the reality of Jihadism and Islamic radicalism.
Turkey created a new Islamofascism regime like AKP ruling party, where most Middle Eastern dictatorial Islamic countries have same common ideology!
Its so sad Armenians think the AKP party is a threat or in any way Islamofascist. Armenians are gonna get a shock if the secularist party ever gets in. Have we forgoten who controls the military, who set the military to overthrow a possible islamist ideology. Ata Turk. Erdogan is an angel compared to what can come about in Turkey. Thanks to Erdogan we have article 301 lifted to a certain extent. We have the military secularists in jail and more democracy than ever, he also has apologized for what happened. Lets if any other party can move Turkey forward like this…
Well maybe I will add for your information that radical islamisme is the fruit of USA and EU and Israel’s hardwork result. When you talk about corrupted regimes of islamic countries, they are welcome when it comes to signing conratcts with them. so choose your government well before you advise otherwise to others !
Ataturk wasn’t about jihadism and radical islam, he created a secular Turkey, which is now indeed being broken down by the AK Party.
In the 18th century Great Britain was Super power and did so much barbarism on its occupied nations,In the 19th century Germany and Soviet union were super powers and did so much barbarism in the world.In the 20th century USA is super power doing barbarism in Iraq,Libya,Afghanistan,Syria,Palestine,Iran which you cannot see and only focus on spreading Islamophobia which is main aim of today’s media.
I wonder if the bulk of the claims made here are supported by source material, for much seems unlikely, especially the allegation of a close connection between the Armenian and Jewish genocides. I wonder what the aim of Ihrig’s book is. Who was (or is) doing the “justifying genocide”? Why the all-encompassing title “Germany” when almost everything mentioned is actually “Hitler” or “Nazi”? There is no explanation or clarification about this gleamed from the interview. I also wonder how often that invented Hitler “quote” is going to be resurrected before it is finally buried for good.
The alleged “Jews of the Orient” German perception of Armenians in reality seriously misrepresents German intellectual perceptions of Armenians and Armenia. The reality was that pre-WW1 Germany considered Armenia to be a morally and intellectually exhausted nation (“moralisch entkräftet”) as a result of the centuries of domination by others. The fate of that Armenia (and of Armenians during the genocide) was, for a militaristic and still newly-created Germany, a lesson in history about what will ultimately and inevitably happen when one nation allows itself to be fragmented and dominated by another. This idea was widespread throughout Europe and America, and led to the shrug of the shoulders “yes it happened, but so what” response to the Armenian Genocide, as well as a sneaking admiration of the Turks for doing it so successfully. In the post-WW1 period this merged with Nazi ideology that a “survival of the fittest nation” conflict was natural and inevitable. Hitler considered German expansion and aggression to be not only natural but essential for Germany’s survival lest it end up like Armenia. Nothing in this is anti-Armenian. Nor is it narrowly justifying the Armenian Genocide, it is justifying genocidal acts by your own nation if they contribute to your own nation’s survival. The “great German genocide debate of the early 1920’s brings the whole matter within a mere decade of Hitler’s ascension to power” states Ihrig – but this is an doubly empty statement given the complete lack of detail in this interview about what that “debate” consisted of, and that in the early 1920s nobody considered that Hitler would ever ascend to any position of power.
The leading question by the interviewer that “not many German historians have researched the Armenian Genocide” (a claim that is obviously false), together with the implication that this is because Germans do not want to uncover more unpleasant truths about their own history, seems characteristic of someone with a preconceived agenda. And, like too much Armenian-produced material on the Armenian Genocide, it is a thesis that sadly parallels Turkish genocide-denial propaganda. The Turkish denialist thesis that is currently most in fashion in Turkey is that the Armenian Genocide is an invention by Christian countries like Germany, France, and Britain as a way of disguising or minimising (or “relativizing”, to use Ihrig’s terminology) their own past and ongoing crimes against Muslims.
“This idea was widespread throughout Europe and America, and led to the shrug of the shoulders “yes it happened, but so what” response to the Armenian Genocide, as well as a sneaking admiration of the Turks for doing it so successfully.”
Was this before WWII? Can you elaborate more than this? Who exactly was admiring the murderous work of the Turks?
While it’s important to get things right and back up arguments through good evidence, we’re not seeing much of this in your post any more than what’s in the article.
As for German’s researching the genocide, I know of at least 2. And one of them has said that a few young German born Turks have started researching too. Who do you know in Germany is seriously researching the genocide?
To go off on a tangent, one thing that I was reminded of in reading this article was the contrast between Turkey after WWI and genocide vs Germany after WWWII and their genocide. The difference is day and night. Germany did all the right things a nation can do after the crimes they committed after WWII and became a freer and more prosperous nation which openly atoned for their crimes. Turkey, not so much. And that is also the irony within Germany. A free and open Germany became the successful and prosperous nation that the Nazis thought they could achieve through death and destruction and conquest. Just goes to show that the path to peace and prosperity is not through war and hate and killing.
“The reality was that pre-WW1 Germany considered Armenia to be a morally and intellectually exhausted nation (“moralisch entkräftet”) as a result of the centuries of domination by others.”
Some people here like to “make up their own history” as they go along with their “fantasist ends”, all the while demanding “sources” from others while they spew nonsense. The rest of the silly opinion piece? “Meh”.
Here’s an idea, Steve: how about reading the book first, then telling everyone what you think of the writer’s ideas.
As for the “invented Hitler quote,” who do you think invented it and why? You seem to be the answer man, so do tell.
All extremely important points, since putting the greatest possible distance between 1915 and the Holocaust has been at the heart of AG denialism. As Ihrig informs us, with the genocide debates of the 1920s that distance is proved much shorter than some would have us imagine. All of which
casts the ECHR Grand Chamber’s recent verdict in the Perincek case in an even worse light.
I can not stand waiting to read this book! It is the very topic that is the focus of my study of the Armenian Genocide: The collusion of the German government, military, and corporations, with the “Young Turks” destructive, racist motives… I will insist that my public library buy it.
I suggest you people stop your nonsense about Hitler. Hitler died 70 years ago. He no longer has any impact on global politics. But the West does. Therefore, what you guys should instead concern yourselves about is the support Turkey has been getting from Western powers since the end of the Second World War. Turkey’s is the West’s buffer against Russia, Iran and the rise of pan-Arabism. Anyone that thinks the West will abandon Turkey is a fool.
The Incredible Turk (1958): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjySoi2PR0w
— Enemigos de los Armenios : Turquia Genocida Negacionista – Rusia Soguzgadora ( durante 69 años haciendo perder al pueblo su identidad, lenguaje y costumbres ) – Alemanie e Inglaterra Complices ( podrian haber intervenido para evitar el genocidio ) … Miguel Angel Nalpatian.- Mar del Plata.- Buenos Aires.- Rca. Argentina.-
Well answered and I agree totally.
How is it possible to disconnect the relentless drive for power, and the steady erosion of uniquely Christian principles of justice and mercy, from the question of German ‘war guilt’ as it concerns two major world conflicts? Granted, ‘for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God’, such that no belligerent party may be exculpated entirely. Nevertheless German guilt by association remains very real, not only with respect to betrayal of a nominally ‘Christian’ people exposed to generation after generation of mohammedan and Turkish misrule, but later also with respect to the victims of Japanese aggression. However enough of a residue of Christianity survived into the the epoch of the Federal Republic and the unified Germany of today, that active repudiation of this barbaric Wilhelmian/Hitlerian legacy is expected of any decent German and European. By sharp contrast, neither muslim Turks nor
heathen Japanese have any space in their vocabularies for the word ‘repentance’. In the end, racialist and ultranationalist politics are powerful satanic tools, making smooth the path to hell.
I’m from Germany and there is absolutely no doubt that Hitler knew in detail about the Armenian genocide. Check this article: http://www.meforum.org/3434/armenian-genocide-hitler
The main link is Max Erwin von Scheubner-Richter.