Special for the Armenian Weekly
ANKARA, Turkey (A.W.)—On January 18, a conference was organized by the Ankara Freedom to Thought Initiative and National Congress of Western Armenians at the Alba Hotel in Ankara. Scholars, human rights activists and journalists from around Turkey came together to mark the anniversary of the assassination of Hrant Dink.
Progressive and leftist scholars and activists from Turkey discussed Hrant Dink’s life, legacy, and the circumstances that led to his assassination. The current judgment against those responsible was deemed wholly inadequate and a travesty of justice.
They spoke of the link between the assassination and the Armenian Genocide. Various speakers placed the genocide in historical context, calling for not just recognition of the crime but also the return of Armenian properties. One speaker proposed erecting an Armenian Genocide monument in Turkey by 2015. It was stated that the genocide is a collective crime that cannot be ignored.
Some speakers touched on the recent meeting Prime Minster Recep Erdogan had with Turkish diplomats on plans to counter genocide recognition. The role of Azerbaijan was also discussed.
Finally, issues of Armenian identity in Turkey today were raised. One participant noted that the government of Turkey has openly acknowledged that there are 5 million citizens in Turkey today of Armenian descent. Examples were given of the types of discrimination these Armenians face in the country.
Writer and activist George Aghjayan was the only diasporan Armenian among the speakers (Read full text here), while MP Aragats Akhoyan (Prosperous Armenia) was the only speaker from Armenia.
On Sunday, there was a demonstration of some 1,000 people in Güvenpark.
Sometimes I wonder if we are getting too chummy with Turks, even the “good” ones, and getting fooled as to what our history with them is, what Pan-Turkism is all about, and whether we are being naive.
Your skepticism is natural, but not trusting people who have clearly proven to be on your side just because they are Turks only hurts your cause. It’ll be to your detriment in the end.
It was an Armenian who gave Talaat the names of the intellectuals who were all murdered in hopes of having some favors. He too was then murdered. It was our Armenian Church leaders that told us not to fight the Turks, to prove our loyalty, which basically just gave the green light to be slaughtered.
Yes there were/are righteous Turks. And to hate them all is ignorant. However, at the same time I can’t ever trust them again. Armenians need to never be in a position of vulnerability because Turks are opportunist predators at heart, their history alone proves that.
Remember acknowledging the AG is an “insult to Turkishness”…How arrogant.
I wonder the same thing, Vahe. I believe that Pan-Turkism remains a threat and Armenians must be cautious, even as we appreciate the show of support from Turks who rally for Hrant Dink and genocide commemorations. Justice for Armenia will require much more than this relative handful of Turks who ‘support’ our cause. The test will be if this cadre of ‘good’ Turks will stand with us when the time for reparations comes.
RDVD,
First things first.Acknowledgement of Genocide State and Reparations paid then we become bosom friends.Like Germany and Israel….more or less
It’s not a matter of trust.
Do the Israelis “trust” anyone but themselves?
The answer of course has been taught to the Armenians the hard way, just as the Israelis understood their history:
we trust and rely on no one but ourselves.
I agree with David and Vahe – and this is NOT a matter of insulting “good Turks” but being a realist and not utterly starry eyed and naïve. We, as a nation and people (and hopefully one day soon a strong state in Yerevan) must learn from our history and not make the same short-sighted mistake again and again.
The core of the Turkish state and society at large is the same as it’s ever been whether Ottoman-imperial/Young Turk/Kemalist or now “moderately Islamic”: Racist-nationalist, and viciously anti-Armenian in particular.
Theses days some ‘far-sighted’ or liberal Turks have realised they cannot enter Europe and the modern era (21st century) without a semblance of democratic and civilised European values and what better than the Armenian Genocide and its “recognition” by Turkey as a forum and programme of action to that end!
I say – and in my view we should say – GOOD LUCK to these people AND we wish them every success. But remember the Young Turks, who were campaigning against Abdul Hamid’s autocracy and apparently for “equality, fraternity and liberty” slogan of the French revolution? Nothing wrong with that IF our leadership had not naively fallen for the Young Turks and their beautiful slogan totally and had not COLLABORATED with them right until the even of 1915 instead of keeping its independent vision and programme of action over and above those slogans FOR OUR NATIONAL SALVATION. And there are other examples spanning the last 100 or so years when we have not been able to articulate and implement a programme in our NATIONAL interest – have failed to see sometimes diametrically opposed interests of the Turkish parties we collaborate or work with, with disastrous results for us.
Pan-Turanism is more strong than ever. Let’s not fool ourselves, there are no bad or good Turks, there are only Turks who hate us more than ever and not ONE iota in their fanatism has changed since the Ottoman period. All these reunions and renovations of a couple of churches is bs. We have fallen once in the past let’s not be naive a second time! I don’t trust the west the east the north or the south. We are alone on our own, let’s build Armenia and get rid of the criminal oligarchs who drained our country and still going on.
Why are people putting “good” Turks in quotes ?
What exactly do you want them to do to be real-good Turks without quotes ?
They are trying: why not say “Thank you very much”, and continue with our own efforts regardless.
It’s a net plus: why turn away free help ?
They are not asking for anything in return, are they ?
If and when they, do then we’ll see.
And isn’t it true that during the Genocide many Turks and Kurds saved at least some Armenians from certain death ?
True, far more Turks and Kurds partook in the slaughter and the looting, but how is that the fault of the good Turks and Kurds.
It is a fact that we as a people are too trusting and too forgiving in general: but that has nothing to do with Turks.
We have been hosed by others too.
The idea is not to let ourselves get into situations where we can be taken advantage of.
RVDV is right. Bluntly put: If you have friende in de ranks of your enemy you can’t afford to write them off. You must keep them and strengthen them, if you can. They can be at some juncture crucial in shifting the scale to your side.
Back to MARTYRLAND????? or await until 2015 to see if the cruel world (that owes Armenians Justice)will side with us and CONDEMN CULPRIT UNANIMOUSLY???? is the question…
Who? whoever would even imagine,not think…that great Turkey´s capital -heart of turkbeighanis(to quote Avery)would ALLOW commemoration of the slaying´s Sevent anniversary….who?
Turks are by and by giving more rope to our Paremid not to say Barzamid Armenians , in order to gain TWO points.
1. To look that their dictatorial ruthless fascist Govt. is changing their so far harsh attitude to ERMENI RAYAS….and that from now on these will be considered and treated as equal citizens(while so far murderer of Hrant Dink has not been condemned to DEATH) and also..
2.Make their way easier to EU and into the civilized nations CLUB.Plus indeed win the hearts of our brethren in both hayastan and Diaspora(those that are nostalgically awaiting just to be in their Ancestors´land I call from now Mrtyrsland of ¨Martyrland¨and get much better kinder treatment ,firtly by Turkish-directed KURDS and then themselves,the modern Turks.
TO finalize my viewpoints, so as some will not dub and stick on me that I am a hardliner or racist etc.,I herewith declare let Taner Ackcam, ASyshe Gunays and others-by all means -carry on their crusade or half -moon (new Turkey) campaign trying to educate their compatriots and KUDOS to them.But I do not think they will change much at the long run with a Govt. that has not as yet confessed to horrendous crime and made amends….get one more Turk in ta count of ten thousand ?yes indeed or a 100 in 100,000—–calculate amongst the 40-50 million how many plus some Turkified Kurds….
Hasgcoghin Parev
History and experience tell us to be cautious with Turkey and Turks. We believed in them in 1908 when the Ittihad re-established the constitution – equal rights to all Ottoman citizens. We went as far as to have members of parliament in the Ottoman House of Representatives. When Simon Zavarian died in 1913 in Constantinople, there were more Turks (proportionally at the time) that walked in his funeral than that of Hrant Dink (Incidentally I was at the H. Dink’s funeral). And the, 2 years later in 1915, the trust that – we can talk with the Turks – was proven to be wrong. I am one of those, who like the Apostle Saint Thomas, who questioned Jesus’ resurrection; I question all changes towards the better in Turkey. Changes are temporary and external. Turks have to go a long way to prove that there is a change in Turkish mentality, including restitution of our lands and properties. Only then, I may trust and accept that they are moving towards – civilized people. In the meantime we talk to them but not trust.
You talked to a few Turks – how brave. Then you change course and say that Dink was murdered. Fine. Was he murdered by the ones you talked too? If Armenians were truly sincere in their “cause”, whatever that may be – genocide recognition, some notion of returning to the “lands”, etc, the VERY LEAST you would assume is that they’s take a risk and talk to those Turks willing to listen. But no! They can’t even do that. And they talk about struggling for their rights? What struggle? Oh, I guess that lobbying is a form of struggle. How naive.
One question please…how many of the above commentators have actually met any of these “good Turks, sat down with them, looked them in the eye and discussed their concerns. Yes, let’s be on our guard, but at least try to communicate with these people. It will be a new experience for many and a welcome respite from preaching to the converted.
Dear Fellow Armenians,
I guess it is time to think about a monument in Yerevan to honor Hrant Dinks sacrifice. It should be big and placed in the towns center.Where should it be erected and where can we bring our donations so that an artist can start his work?
Hrant Dink deserves it !
Let’s not confuse between individual good Turks, and so-called “nationalist” Turks, the average, typical, uneducated, ignorant brainwashed state drone whether labeled “Islamist” or “Secular”. The latter outnumbers the former.
Dealing with Turks is more about dealing with Turkish society than it is with individuals, so always keep your guards up, Turkish society on the whole has not proven that it can be trusted yet. Whether we will ever trust Turks, remains in the hands of Turks themselves.
Good to see you back, Tlkatintsi. I realize it can be easy to be discouraged seeing us Diasporans disagreeing on issues, but its all part of the precess. Totally agree on the need to communicate with the Turks. If Serzh the “president” can invite them over to watch soccer, every Armenian is well within his rights to talk to them.
Real Universe: President Sargsyan wins a landslide 2nd term. 58% to 37%.
BarevaUniverse: the “real” “elected” Bareva_37%_President is still waiting for world dignitaries and leaders to pay him an official visit to his bench on the Liberty Square.
Meanwhile in Democratic Sultanate of Turkbeijan, voting results were released by CEC by mistake _before_ the voting even started to select the next Sultan of Baku Khanate. Ilham was declared winner by 73% before polls opened.
If Hrant were a member of Armenian diaspora, he would have been excommunicated for being “too chummy” with Turks. Let me remind that he was above all a Turkish intellectual, a Turkish citizen and died for his beliefs, not the first or the last one. Question is, where is the Armenian Hrant?
Hopefully, the disagreements you refer to will ultimately lead to consensus and a practical plan of action to reach certain objectives. My 49-50 years of experience doesn’t instill much hope, sadly.
Hopefully, the disagreements you refer to should ultimately lead to consensus and a practical plan of action to reach certain objectives. My 49-50 years of experience doesn’t instill much hope, sadly.
This Murat figure sounds a lot like that Turkbaijani clown figure, called Yildirim. He/she is now going to attempt to categorize Hrant Dink as being a Turk? Well, when you really think about it, the Turks/Azeris have never once had a really famous person who was truly decent with high qualities. The only famous people they’ve had up to now, have been murderers, tyrants, and genocide organizers. Therefore, it makes perfect sense for a Turkbaijani to attempt to categorize a famous and noble Armenian, such as Hrant Dink, as not being connected to anything Armenian, but instead being a Turkish intellectual.
He was a citizen of the Republic of Turkey. That makes his nationality Turkish. Do you know the difference between “Turkish” and “Turk”?
The ‘good’ Turks I’ve met along the way, who have expressed honest sympathy for Armenians and the genocide, have actually all been Kurds….not Turks.
Karekin and others
What about Taner Aghcam, Rajib Zarakolu, Orhan Kemal Chengiz, Ayse Gunaysu(whose passionate article you can read on these very pages), Nazim Hekmat, Hasan Jemal (grandchild of Jemal Pasha, who lost his job because of calling Turksih government to recognize Genocide), to name just a few. Doesn’t it look silly, to refer to them as ‘good Turks'(in derisory comma’s)?
Murat
You are sophisticating the issue. Calling Hrand a Turkish intellectual only does not say all that he was. He could just as wall be called, ans was, an Armenian intellectual. Dividing his political personality into Turkish only or Armenian only, would be worng and that was, I believe what he himself didn’t wish to. He belonged to both Armenian an Turkish people and both in my view can take pride of him. He was couragous enough to addressed the whole Turkish society, but not solely as a Turk or as an Armenian, but as a Turkish-Armenian citizen. Alas, the Turkish society was not ready to digest and accept such a great human being. Will that society one day get mature enough to realize what he has lost? I hope so, but that remains to be seen.
Still, I believe his message and teachings will continue to educate and isnpire Armenians and Turks alike for the decades to come.
“What about Taner Aghcam, Rajib Zarakolu, Orhan Kemal Chengiz, Ayse Gunaysu(whose passionate article you can read on these very pages), Nazim Hekmat, Hasan Jemal”
Not to mention Mr. Orun Yıldırım.
The problem here, is that some of these Turkish nomads are attempting to wrap the word, Turkish, around Hrant Dink and his legacy. On the subject of Dr. Dink’s nationality, he was indeed a citizen of Turkey, so based upon that, one can say that his nationality was Turkish. However, the word, nationality, also has a second definition, which would be a group of people who share the same history, language, and cultural traditions. Based upon this definition, Dr. Dink would be Armenian. After all, his ethnicity was Armenian, and he was also raised as an Armenian. As a matter of fact, on the subject of nationality, when a person here in the United States asks you, what’s your nationality, he or she is not referring to what country you’re a citizen of. What he or she is referring to, is what is your ethnicity, or what is your background.
{“Interesting story. I was actually trying to DISPROVE the Armenian genocide . Anyways, one website/article after another gave me a strong dose of reality, combined with documentaries, pictures, etc…..In the end, the facts are facts, and I accepted the reality of the situation.”}
(RVDV // January 24, 2014 at 8:37 pm //)
{“Oh please, it is clear you have not really followed facts and figures and documents, maybe just emotions.”}
(Murat // January 25, 2014 at 1:58 am //)
{“ There was no denial of Dersim. Facts and figures are there. Maybe it was not highlighted and talked about, but it was hardly denied. In fact, the real stroy and facts can never be erased. Unlike the Armenian genocide myth, where the facts and figures are mostly manufactured. You see the difference? “} (Murat @HDN 2012)
Oh please, pretty please: it is clear that you, denialist Murat, have not really followed facts and figures and documents; rather, most assuredly have followed only your nomadic Anti-Armenian hate filled base emotions.
Sad case of Denialitis addled mind, further confused by visceral hatred for Armenians, an indigenous, highly civilized ethnos that progeny of nomadic Seljuk Turks suffering from Denialitis loath and despise, while at the same time secretly envy, knowing full well that most of their modern attributes they disingenuously ascribe to themselves as “Turkish” this or “Turkish” that, were in reality, ahem, ‘borrowed’ from those the supposedly ‘proud’ and ‘superior’ Nazi Turks consider Untermenschen.
btw: does the library of the Turkish Hysterical Society, where you maintain a lifetime membership, have anything on the massacres of Armenian civilians by Turks during 1894-1896 ?
Anything about 1909 Adana massacre ?
Pssst: WW1 started in 1914. 1909 comes 5 years _before_ 1914 in the real Universe.
Apparently in the Denialverse, Armenian civilians, including children, were ‘guilty’ of ‘assisting’ the Allies even before the war started: time goes backwards in Denialverse.
How about 1915, April 24: anything on what happened on that day to Turkish Armenian intellectuals – you know, like Hrant Dink – and civic leaders living in Turkey ?
Anything about Ottoman Turkey entering WW1 in 1914 by launching an unprovoked sneak naval attack on Russian Back Sea coast installations ?
Bunch of sore loser nomads taking out their humiliation of massive defeats on defenseless Armenian women, children, babies.
Kudos to RVDV for thinking for himself, and placing truth ahead of popularity, even safety. He has company among many Turkish scholars, who have chosen the road less traveled. I culled their names from a denialist site where they are excoriated for being traitors:
Halil Berktay (Turkey)
Ahmet Insel
Bulent Peker
Salim Deringil
Taner Akcam (Germany, USA)
Ali Ertem
Fikret Adanir (Germany)
Donus Gunduz
Murat Peker (USA)
Fatma Muge Gocek (USA)
Koray Caliskan
Dilek Kurban
Yunus Tuncel
Ercin Kursat Ahler (Germany)
Some of these are not known to be great friends of Armenians – Halil Berktay comes to mind.
Nonetheless, he recounted in a 1999 Radikal article how his reading primary sources at Yale’s Sterling Memorial Library whilst a grad student there made him recognize irrefutable evidence of Genocide.
The article recounts that he burst into tears, presumably as much for recognizing the deception his nation’s leaders had perpetrated on him as seeing for the first time the murders they had committed in his name.
Armenians often peer into Turkey hoping to see glimmers of justice. Glimmers will not be found. There will be no justice until two things happen. First, the current generations of racists must die, and be replaced by west-looking more European elites who abhor racism. That is at least 1-2 generations in the future.
Second, Turkish leaders must speak out and lead their people towards justice for Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks and Pontic Greeks.
I am doubtful this will ever occur.
Avery, you keep using the word Nomad when talking about Turks. There are so many issues with doing so that one could write a PhD paper on it. First, DNA studies sho (yes, yes, I will not tire of rubbing your nose in these scientific fact) that the Mongol-Asian invasion had no nontrivial impact on the DNA make-up of the local people. THIS IS A FACT! Ignore it at the risk ignorance, which you seem eager to embrace to allow you to continue your nonsense.
Secondly, EVEN IF, there was a genetic impact … We are talking about 1000+ years ago! Are you calling the progeny of nomads still nomads even after 1000 years ago! Why stop at 1000? Is there a scientific basis for it? Why not go 5000 years ago, etc? You see, everybody is a nomad. We all are nomads from Africa. Look, even you personally are a nomad living in the US.
Thirdly, what is wrong with being a nomad 1000+ years ago? You show your bigotry so openly that it is mind-boggling. It is such an un-American quality to speak with such hateful terms about a whole ethnic group. I strongly hesitate to compare Armenian vs Turkish culture, because it is a slippery slope towards bigotry like yours. You talk so lowly about Turks and highly of Armenians … Don’t you think you are being a sour loser, having lost to them your land (which by the way had been someone else’s land, such as Urartuans, before you took it over). If you are so superior to them why did you lose so badly? And I am not talking about 1915, but about the events that had led to a situation where they WERE capable of slaughtering you? Why was it not you who was in that position of power? I know, I know you guys had superior culture. And time after time, I ask you guys to show me your Aristotles, your Dostoyevskis, etc. All you come back with is your alphabet (anyone can make up letters), dolma, “We were the first Taliban state to formally adopt a state religion”. Yes, Turks don’t have many of these things either (of high culture, like Greeks, Persians do). But neither do you. And you are the ones who parade your 50000 year history … and you have what to show for it? A great empire? Sure. But Turks have had it too … and much bigger than yours, and one that had lasted much longer than yours.
And in sum, according to your definition, people of America are bunch of nomads. Which of course is true. But … do you really not see past your hatred?
Karim:
We have refuted your nonsensical assertions that you keep posting many times before. So no need to do it again at this time.
But I will comment on the ‘nomad’ part: it should be clear that as used herein ‘nomad’ is a behavioural attribute; obviously, previously physically nomadic Turkic tribes that invaded our lands, have become sedentary over centuries.
A prime example of savage nomadic behaviour of mocking and/or celebrating the pain of their victims was the infamous spectacle that a group of about 50 young Turkish-Americans were engaged in on April 24, 2010, right in front of the Turkish embassy in Washington D.C.
They were dancing happily, they were singing in great joy:celebrating the start of the mass murder of Armenian children and babies.
Is that behaviour any different than the savage nomadic behaviour of 1000 years ago ?
Now, let me first paste a portion of what you wrote a while back:
{“ Dear Moderator, I ask you to let through this last post of mine. I know I have said the same thing before, and lied, but this time I will kep my word, I promise. And thanks again for letting me thru in the past.”} (Kerim // March 23, 2013 at 11:05 pm //)
Pay attention to your own words: “…I ask…”.
ArmenianWeekly has been very fair and generous towards you, a Turkbeijani, who visits AW frequently and engages in Anti-Armenian, Anti-RoA, Anti-NKR disinformation and propaganda: kudos to AW. (too bad we Armenians are not afforded the same opportunity to post at _any_ Azerbaijani sites)
You ask AW to give you wide latitude, then in a typical nomadic fashion, you know, ingrates who respect no boundaries, instead of being thankful to AW, you, a foreign guest at an Armenian site, proceed to insult one the most respected Columnists of ArmenianWeekly, Ms. Gunaysu.
You then insult poster Perouz, mocking her pain of remembering her ancestors that were slaughtered during AG.
Perouz is Armenian: you are a Turkbeijani guest. You insult her at an Armenian site. What does that make you ?
Prove to the readers of AW that you yourself are not a ‘nomad’:
– Apologize to Ms. Gunaysu.
– Apologize to Perouz.
Then we’ll see.
There is so much wrong with your post, it is not even funny. Firstly, DNA is secondary, culture is primary, and yes, your entire mindset as a cultural people remains as nomadic and tent-dwelling mentality, whose ‘positive’ aspects of culture is the property of other cultures, particularly Armenian, and even after a 1000 years of changing your DNA through forced assimilation. First implementation of Genocide on an INDIGENOUS population, then 100 years of denial of Genocide is the best indicator of the type of backwards, unenlightened nomads we are dealing with.
Second, we can’t go back 5000 years with your culture, because there is no record of your people past 1200 years or so. The reason for this is, you had nothing of value, nor original or unique to share with the rest of the world. The Armenians, Europeans, Persians and Arabs went directly to China for trade.
Thirdly, there is nothing wrong with being a nomad per se, but there is when you are a nomad and destroyer of human progress and culture. And in this regard, I will admit Turkish culture takes the cake for its outstanding achievement as a destroyer, looter, assimilator, and thief.
“I strongly hesitate to compare Armenian vs Turkish culture”
Of course you do. Because deep down inside, you all know the blueprint for “Turkish culture” is in fact Armenian. And honestly admitting this would put the work of the past 1000 and especially 100 years of lies to waste. What a loss it would be to reveal that all that money and effort spent for the past 100 years, to hide, marginalize, and altogether erase the very same Armenian culture the Turkish culture is based on, was actually a hoax.
“Don’t you think you are being a sour loser, having lost to them your land” – Do you need more proof of a nomadic mindset? That’s one of the features of being a nomad, confusing crime with natural progress. I wonder what your reaction would be if a crime was committed against you and a judge asks you the same question.
“(which by the way had been someone else’s land, such as Urartuans, before you took it over).” – Yeah sure, a spaceship came and hauled off all the Urartuans away. Another feature of nomads: denying the history of others in the absence of history of your own.
“If you are so superior to them why did you lose so badly?” – More proof of the nomadic mindset at work, this time confusing between crime and cultural development: “Looting, killing and pillaging means you are superior.”
“show me your Aristotles, your Dostoyevskis” – we don’t need to, because firstly, you would murder them right away to prove your “superiority”. One example was our Komitas, who gave more to our culture, and thus human culture, than all the Aristotles and Dostoyevskis combined, yet you “superior” nomads still managed to arrest him and drive him mad and destroyed several thousand Armenian songs of his which we have lost forever now, thanks to you “superior” nomads.
Would you like to see our Aristotles and Dostoyevskis? Go to Istanbul and see all the historic buildings there and ask who was behind them. Go to Cilicia and visit the Medieval castles there and ask who was behind them. Go to Georgia and ask where they got their historic architecture from. Go back to your country of Azerbiajan and locate some carpet weavers and ask them why they are weaving carpets with Armenian designs on them. Our Aristotles and Dostoyevskis are our whole culture. And no doubt, any Aristotles and Dostoyevskis that would have been, your culture managed to murder.
Has it ever crossed your mind that Aristotle and Dostoyevski have had no impact on your people, but instead you have a lot bigger things to worry about, like why is almost everything in your culture based on Armenian?
And you say anyone can make up letters and form an alphabet? Why don’t you do it and become famous for your own people? Your country of Azerbaijan can’t make up its mind with all those alphabet revisions since it was created 100 years ago. We have had our alphabet, unchanged, for 1600 years.
This ‘Karim’ may well be described as the Azeri version of Nejati. Pretending to be well informed, and at times, less biased than a typical (anti-Armenian) Azeri, he is nothing else than what once one commentator rightly described: “a hostile witness”, and I will add for more clarity, “with a mission”. As such, he is not here for an unbiased polemic, that is, to learn and to be learned from. Therefore, I believe it is not worth much to take him too seriously, bearing in mind what he after all has to “prove” or “disprove”.