Awash in billions of petrodollars, but lacking a moral compass, Azerbaijan has been busy handing out loads of money to anyone who is willing to heed its propaganda.
Baku’s bribery scheme, known worldwide as “caviar diplomacy,” has now ensnared Washington’s movers and shakers. Apparently, there is no shortage of Americans who are eager to sell their souls for a fistful of dollars. As a novice in the field of lobbying, Azerbaijan has quickly learned the tricks of the trade from its “elder brother” Turkey, a well-versed master of political deception.
The website of the U.S. Department of Justice lists the names and amounts paid by various Azeri entities to 11 American firms:
— Azerbaijan’s Embassy in Washington pays $35,000 per month to Patton Boggs “for advice and assistance on U.S.-Azerbaijan bilateral relations”; $18,250 per month to Melwood Communications to assist in “media relations and communications strategy”; $20,000 per month to the DCI Group for “public relations and media outreach, and building relationships with think tanks”; and $45,000 per month to the Podesta Group for public relations.
— The Livingston Group, named after former House Speaker Bob Livingston, who left public office in disgrace, has so far received close to $2 million for lobbying on behalf of Azerbaijan’s Foreign Ministry.
— The International Bank of Azerbaijan pays Jefferson Waterman International (JWI) $25,000 per month “to develop relations with American institutions” and “media relations strategy.” JWI receives another $25,000 per month from “The Presidency of Azerbaijan” for counseling on media strategy. Azerbaijan’s Ministry of Finance owns 51 percent of the shares of the International Bank of Azerbaijan.
— The Azerbaijan America Alliance has so far paid Fabiani & Company $2.4 million “for planning and executing strategies to encourage research and advocacy about the Azeri people, country, culture, and international relations.” A recent gala dinner in Washington, hosted by the Azerbaijan America Alliance, was attended by 700 guests, including Obama Administration officials, members of Congress, and foreign diplomats. Notorious Congressional opponents of Armenian issues attended the banquet, including Senators Saxby Chambliss and Richard Burr, House Speaker John Boehner, and former Cong. Dan Burton.
— Roberti White LLC is paid $20,834 per month by SOCAR USA, the American subsidiary of the State Oil Company of Azerbaijan, to explore business opportunities in the United States.
— Since money is no object, even the Consulate General of Azerbaijan in Los Angeles can afford to hire its own public relations firm. Over the years, it has engaged the services of Sitrick and Company ($50,000 per year); the Toolshed Group LLC ($35,000), founded by Jason Katz, a former director of public affairs for the American Jewish Committee; and the Potomac Square Group (amount undisclosed) “to provide media outreach…and interaction with editors.”
Now comes yet another ex-Congressman who is chasing Azerbaijan’s Almighty Dollar! Former New York Cong. Michael McMahon is handling public affairs/government relations for the so-called “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus,” a territory recognized only by its occupying power—Turkey! McMahon, who served on the House Foreign Affairs Committee until his defeat in 2010, is leading the lobbying effort on behalf of Herrick, Feinstein LLP of New York, which won a $200,000 per year contract to arrange Congressional visits to occupied Northern Cyprus and improve its public image in the media. McMahon also handled the development and construction of Turkey’s expanded consulate in New York City.
It is therefore not surprising that McMahon’s name surfaced last week, when he tried to legitimize President Ilham Aliyev’s falsified re-election, in which he gained 85 percent of the vote, while his nine opponents collectively received the remaining 15 percent!
While international observers criticized Aliyev’s re-election as “unfair and rife with fraud,” the New York Times quoted McMahon as stating that the vote was “honest, fair, and really efficient. There were much shorter lines than in America, and no hanging chads,” he continued, referring to the disputed ballots in Florida during the 2000 U.S. presidential race.
Shockingly, The New York Times fell victim to McMahon’s ploy, deciding to title its article on the fraudulent vote as “Observers Differ on Fairness of Election in Azerbaijan.” The Times thus equated one man’s pro-Azeri propaganda with the overwhelming evidence of widespread fraud confirmed by respectable international observers, such as the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). Fortunately, The Times pointed out that “the split in assessments seemed to reflect an aggressive lobbying effort by the Aliyev government to portray the election as fair.”
Armenian Americans cannot compete with Azerbaijan’s lavish handouts. They don’t have to. Since the truth is on their side, they do not need to spend millions on lobbying to present the facts as they are!
Harut Sassounian
Truth has always been on side and where has it gotten us? You’re right, we cannot spend millions of dollars to compete but we do indeed have to respond vigorously. Often perception is stronger than reality.
“Azerbaijan has been busy handing out loads of money to anyone who is willing to heed its propaganda.”
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We call that lobbying.
“Armenian Americans cannot compete with Azerbaijan’s lavish handouts. They don’t have to. Since the truth is on their side, they do not need to spend millions on lobbying to present the facts as they are!”
.
Fact: The US doesn’t recognize the Armenian genocide
Fact: NKR is internationally recognized as legally part of Azerbaijan
Maybe you should compete.
Mr. Sassounian: I agree with Mike and RVDV.
The line about truth being sufficient in and of itself is, sorry Sir, a joke.
I know you are not that naïve.
A line like that coming from a respected community leader with wide reach such as yourself may lull _some_ amongst us into complacency.
Facts and truth give us certain advantage, and our opposition has to spend inordinately more to prove – as you put it once on TV – “….that this white shirt is actually black…”.
But our message – the truth – has to be proactively promoted.
Even in a US courtroom, if you do not show up and argue your case – you lose by default: no matter how many facts you have on your side.
If truth was sufficient in and of itself, Turkey would not have been able to deny the AG this successfully for this long, and get away with it.
And Azerbaijan would not have been able to successfully implant manufactured lies as facts in the minds of so many neutral 3rd parties.
RVDR
You seem enjoying playing with words. “Lobbying” to get facts presented otherwise is nothing else but bribing. Can you call spending (and receiving) that much money for that kind of lobbying anything, but corruption?
New York Times quoted McMahon as “.. .and no hanging chads,”. Of course there would be no hanging chads as they had the voting ballots done by highly trained officials instead of dumb voters )))
Tp Arshak and Avery,
Lobbying by power-brokers(some forgot this adjective)is no news.Have money we´ll travel was an old one some 30/40 yrs ago…as well.
Indeed Harut is not naive!!! I have no doubt for that.But what do you expect him to do without even the meagrest FUNDING!!!
That is where My THESES COMES IN!!!
We need to have a NATIONAL INVESTMENT TRUST FUND!!!!!
of course it will be through Fund raising but not LIKE BEFORE THIS TIME OVER.The name testifies to it…AN INVESTMENT TRUST FUND!
Nucleus by our billionaire magnates , all the way down through millionaires, down to One hundred dollar investors in NAT. INVEST TRUST FUND. Latter re invested in Scandinavian(an example)Govt. Bonds that render some 4/5% per annum,half to investors and rest to be compounded through FUND. From this Fund then ,very sparingly -not handouts, but paying for FULL PAGE ADS in NY times, Wall St.Journal Washington post, le Figaroe tc., as we approach the 100th Anniversary. No payments to Brokers.sorry, lobbyists(actuall brokers, Powewr brokers) some glorified form of denomination!!!!
And since ours as someone opined above is A JUST CAUSE,DOES NOT NEED TOO MUCH CONVINCING…BUT NONE THE LESS,I personbally believe in the power of T.V. these days…
A Film or more than one, such as from Novel by jack hashian (an ex-State Dept. functionary( now passed on)… his book entitled ¨ m a m i g o n¨ a film that will definitely surpass ¨the Schindler´s list¨..Please stop repeating 40 days of Mussa Dagh.this is a story much more brilliant and shocking that that of Mussa Dagh.Just get hold of book and read it or buy it from amazon!!
And indeed others of that nature…
For we also need to go PUBLIC.Forget about power brokers.Anyhow we cannot match easy money from petroleum.
Oh I near forgot but we can also begin with lodging Class action lawsuits,no not right away the MAIN ONE for Genocide, but like this servant of the Armenian people has suggested, Claims by our heirs of the Oil well owners in Baki, the mantashian.s nercessians,Lazasrian, Lianazoff,Gulbenkian.these are IMPORTANT TOO.SO AS THE WHOLE WORLD WILL GET TO KNOW THAT THOSE OIL WELLS were started by ARAMYANTS family in the 1870´S I have data and all can look up also in Armenpedia eetc.,
These are where we ccan spend from the FUND´s interests also.SECOND MOST IMPORTANT ONE BEGIN FUNDING REAL REPATRIATION …LOANBING NOT GIVING TO EA FAMILY AROUNDA HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLALRS LOAN FOR 10/12 YRS AT LOW INTEREST RATES-AGAINST MOERTGAGES PROPEERTY REAL estate etc.,All is possible my frinds if we get to FORM INTO PROFESSIONA COLLEAGEUS aSSOCIATIONS.LET THE POLITICAL PARTIES , SPIRITUAL LEADERS AND BENEFACTORS DO IT THE WAY THEY HAVE DONE SO FAR. NO MEDDLING IN THEIR AFFAIRS.
But a new movement can thus be started and ..brother do i think it will succeed…
Only if only we begin NOW!!!
“$2.4 million “for planning and executing strategies to encourage research and advocacy about the Azeri people, country, culture, and international relations.””
That would be quite difficult to do even given an unlimited budget, since no amount of money can change the fact that the “Azeri people” cannot be researched past 1918. Iranian Azeris, perhaps. Turkish Azeris, no. The problem we have is the Iranian Azeris, which have a better claim to their name, are not in harmony with Turkish Azeris both culturally and historically speaking, despite what the despotic autocracy in Baku claims. The only thing they have in common in fact is their religion and to a lesser extent the Turkish language which for Iranian Azeris is secondary to Farsi. The cultural differences would probably preclude any unity.
In the period of 1918 to 1991 the “Azeri” nationality had enforced state backing. Today only money and propaganda back it, and sooner or later it is destined to crumble as more and more former Muslims of various nationalities of the region (formerly called ‘Tatars’ by the Russians) start discovering and accepting their identities, notable among these the Talysh people, clearly an Iranian people forced into their current state of being ‘Turkic’.
I don’t know to what extent there is a silent ‘national movement’ amongst the Talysh today, but during the NK war, the movement temporarily revealed itself, with plans drawn up of a future Talyshistan complete with defined borders. As Iranian and Turkish ideologies are incompatible religiously and culturally, the position and state of the modern day Turkish Azeris are unenviable since surely they are bound to enter a fatal identity crisis at some point. For Azerbaijan the writing may already be on the wall, and with Armenia and NKR not even dealing with it yet.
As for the despot of Baku calling himself “president”, it seems he is now trying to be “less noticeable” with his fraudulent elections agreeing to lower his “popularity” by 5% from last time. He previously scored 90% in the “Democratic elections”, now it is 85%. I guess after some thought, 90% was being too obvious and going too far. The math is sound though. By the time he is either dead or abdicated to Aliyev Jr, he will safely still be in the majority, after which despot Jr will reset the family tradition and start again with 90%. (Unless of course a revolution takes place).
I would much rather spend that money in Armenia and especially in arming the Armenians to the teeth. Give them the finest and most potent military hardware so as to be ready to defend and liberate more Armenian lands, if the Azeri’s decide to resume a 2nd war. Lets send all their kids back home in body bags shall we? That is my motto.
We have spent lots of Lobbying money already. How far has it gotten us? As long as Zionist control the US State Department they will never do the right thing for Armenians and acknowledge the Genocide. Never! This goes so deep that ANY US PRESIDENT immediately thwarts any congressional effort. Someone from the US State Department sits them down right from the beginning and says we cant talk about any genocides.. No amount of lobbying money will change that..
Hagop D, you show such tremendous ignorance of history. You claim that Southern Azeris and Northern Azeris are two different nations. It is breathtaking what non-sense a self-serving delusions can lead someone to believe! And here is how your thinking goes: “well, if I say Azeris are non-entities, then what to make of the 16million Azeris in Iran? … Well, they are not the same! That is how I will rationalize it to myself! I got it!” But the fact is, before Russia took over in 1818, both Azeri sides used to be part of the same state or empire. And guess what? For nearly 1000 years what is now Iran was ruled by Azeris, until Gajar dynasty in 1795. Now whether modern Azeris used to be called 1000+years ago Albanians or not … it does not matter. For the last 1000 years or so, our territory has been demonstrably ruled by Turkic speaking/Azeris. If you call us a nation that is only 1000 years old. Fine! Remember, US is only a couple of hundreds years old as a nation called American. And I am sure you would not dare to call them “uncivilized.” Yes, they did have history before America. But so did we, through Albanians, Atropetena, etc.
As for Albanians … let me ask you this. You dare to call Urartu as Armenian. So why can’t we call Albanians ours even thour our names are different? Different language families, you say? Well, did you know that Urartu language was not Indo-European unlike the Armenian? So there was no continuity – and remember, you destroyed their empire (correction, actually, Medea destroyed it, with help from Armenian traitors, and then gave the power to Armenians as their vassals). So I am sure if you time-machined an Urartuan to today, he would be repulsed to be called Armenian, the enemies that betrayed them! True, I am sure many Urartuans did become Armenian. But so did the Albanian become Azeri. No double-standards, please!
Again, it is so astonishing to hear something like this coming from you guys … “Well, Northern Azeris and Southern ones are two different nations except they speak the same language, have the same religion, same music, same genes, same looks, same holidays, same traditions, … but still they are different, yes!” I think what is going on here is that you feel extremely uncomfortable with accepting this fact: combined, there are 25 million Azeris in the region, while there are only 2 million Armenians. That is a very scary thought to you! And you will deny reality at any and all cost to dismiss this fact, just as any one other delusional person would when facing an inconvinient reality.
As for our lobbying money, well, ANCA gets to influence congressional votes one way, and we another. There is nothing wrong with that. So what? You can lobby, but we cannot! And yes, we have tons of money. Be green envy all you want!
Tight race between Kerim and Hagop D for most ridiculous post.
1. These rants about Azeris being a fake and made up group need to stop. Sure, the Azeri identity is new. It is a recent blend of many, similar (more or less), people. This is true for every ethnic group ever. Factions of similar peoples are brought together by several things, including a “common ancestry” which is usually based on myth- in other words- made up. Azeris, in my view, are a blend of Turkish and Persian. They are unique and they not a fake nation- no matter how much you repeat it.
2. Azeris are not Caucasian Albanians. They’re just not. If Azeris ruled Persia for a 1000 years until 1795, that would mean their rule started in 795 CE. This simply is not true. The early 9th century is when Turkic groups first make it to the region. Not RULE, just GET THERE. Are we just gonna make stuff up?
RVDV,
You don’t need to misrepresent my post in order to have a balance. I never said “Azeris don’t exist”. Obviously they do, however, I placed their historicity in question. There is nothing wrong with being a “new people”, but there is when such “new people” try to turn the tables on a people known from antiquity and pretend that the opposite of what is true is true. In this respect, one can claim that Azerbaijan is a fake nation, because its newly established existence is based on the demise of another (Armenia). In fact from the Armenian perspective, Turkey falls into that category too, although there is more than the reason of oil for its existence and viability.
And yes, Azeris may be a mix of Turkish and Persian but that picture is incomplete. That statement can apply nearly to every Muslim of the region. Simply stated, the Azeris are the end product of the conflict between the Ottoman Empire and Persia in the 17th century. That is, today’s Azeris living in Iran, who are inclined to call themselves ‘Azari’ rather than Azeri. And here was the point of the post, the Azeris of Azerbaijan drifted away further and now consider themselves ‘Turkic’ rather than ‘Iranic’. And that’s the reason I question every bit of Azeri history, because the only history they can present is based on the former Iranian-Persian expansion into the Caucasus, while at the same time rejecting such an identity. It simply does not work.
Karim,
Language is not the entire story of a people, but in trying to claim Caucasian Albanians, have you considered the most important factor of the period, religion? Mashtots created the Caucasian Albanian alphabet, which is noticeably similar to the Armenian, and while this may not mean the languages were similar, it definitely means that the culture was. As RVDV pointed out, the timeline of Caucasian Albanian assimilation and Muslim migration to the region does not match.
Which also brings us to your claims about Urartu. Language again is not the entire picture, only a part of it. Culture, blood, beliefs, traditions, and the like are what defines a people. The fact remains, the lands where the Armenians came to occupy as a unified people were absent of others for many centuries until Rome, then Muslims showed up (first with Arabs, then Turkic tribes). What does this mean? It means all such former people of the region are thus affiliated as Armenians, regardless of how their language changed. That is the ethno-genesis of Armenia… tribes of SIMILAR people assimilated to ultimately form the Armenian identity. And when that identity came to fruition, no other distinct people were around.
This claim that “Armenians destroyed Urartu” is nonsense, and only amateur historians and pseudo-scholars make such silly assumptions. What are you trying to imply that such people were destroyed through genocide by the Barbaric Armenians who appeared out of no where? No. Given the time and the technology of the time, it was not possible to meticulously plan, fund, and implement the total annihilation of another people. And besides, the geography of the region would prevent this even if a group tried. There are a lot of things to consider, but this is enough.
“There is nothing wrong with being a “new people”, but there is when such “new people” try to turn the tables on a people known from antiquity and pretend that the opposite of what is true is true.”
.
Ok, if this is the main point you’ve been trying to make, I agree with you in this regard. However I disagree with the fake nation stuff. If Azerbaijan’s newly established existence is based on the demise of Armenia… then by that logic would Azerbaijan not have existed as we know it if Armenia did not exist?
.
“Simply stated, the Azeris are the end product of the conflict between the Ottoman Empire and Persia in the 17th century.”
.
Let’s not forget that there a very strong case can be made that the Safavids were Azeris, though there is no complete scholarly agreement on the issue.
.
“And that’s the reason I question every bit of Azeri history, because the only history they can present is based on the former Iranian-Persian expansion into the Caucasus, while at the same time rejecting such an identity. It simply does not work.”
.
I guess you have a good point here. I have always wondered about how the Turkish-Azeris brotherhood/best friends/one nation two states thing came about. Because it we accept that the Safavids were Azeris, then Azeris and Turks were, for quite a while, mortal enemies in some sense..
RVDV, so you now concede [Hagop D] left our guest Karim in the dust in the supposedly tight race ?
Avery: Upon further explanation of his point, yes, I do concede. He makes some good points.
RVDV: that is why I and many others here @AW respect you, even though you oftentimes vigorously defend the Turkish viewpoint from where you stand.
You do not allow truth and facts get in the way of personal feelings and false pride.
Glad to have you as a Turk guest @AW.
Avery, what, you are going to trust Kurd to be a judge of an Azeri? Ever since I made fun of RVDV pretending to represent the Turkish side, he has been mad at me :) almost stalking my comments here, again implying that somehow he is able to transcend his biases and see the light on the Armenian side. But make no mistake, he does have such pre-biases, but they are anti-Azeri. So don’t rush to congratulate yourself that “an objective third” party agrees with you. He is one of you, as far as Azeri and Turks are concerned. They are just as anti-us as you are.
As for the pseudo-historical aspects of this discussion, just take a step back and ask yourself .. what happened to all these Turkic-speaking khanates and kingdoms that were there before the Azeri republic? Did they evaporate into thin air? And what happened to the Albanians? Did they evaporate into thin air? Even the most ardent Armenian delusionists claim that they become Armenians. So what happened? Here is a clue … What happened to Urartians? Did they evaporate into thin air too? See, I am big enough of a man to accept that the other side has legitimate claims. It is likely that Urartuans did eventually become Armenian, thru rape, assimilation, and elite language domination. So, you cannot have it both ways… You cannot claim Urartuans as your ancestors simply because they lived where you later lived (even though they spoke a totally different language and whose state you destroyed with Medes’ help), AND yet turn around and deny the same logic to Azeri ancestors. You cannot have it both ways!
As to Hagop the historian, here is a quick sample of his deletante self-serving selective take: “Given the time and the technology of the time, it was not possible to meticulously plan, fund, and implement the total annihilation of another people.” Really? Only the utter ignoramus would make such a claim. History is filled with utter and complete destruction of nations! What technology? All it takes to kill is a sword or even a rock. Either you did do the same to Urartuans, or you assimilated them. Either way, they WERE not Armenian. Again, you cannot have it both ways! You must either grant Azeris the Albanian heritage, or deny yourself Urartuans.
All surrounding Altai mountain Turkic tribes evaporated around 900 AD and rained down to South and North Caucasus, Armenian Highlands, and Northern Iran, where our Karim Agha’s newly Turkified converted ancestors were born in Baku Khanate. Right now a sophisticated Kurdish thief running the newly crowned oil Sheikhdom!!
For the record, I’m not anti-anyone, I’m pro-truth. I also don’t support an independent Kurdistan within Turkey btw.
Whether an ethnic group has been around a long time or a short time or came in on last night’s asteroid is irrelevant to Armenian survival. Enemies to be opposed, allies to be cultivated. That is what matters.
yes, Jda, but it is relevant to the advancement of the cause, because it demonstrates that had it not been Turkic invasion into the Armenian highlands, we most probably would have no survival issue at all. If we don’t revisit the autochthony issue from time to time, posters like Kerim may one day convince some uninformed AW readers that modern-day Azeris were in the region for as long as the ancient Armenians or the Greeks or the Assyrians. And that Caucasian Albania, Artsakh, and Persian province of Azarbaijan were all their ancestral lands. And that throughout millennia–and not just beginning from 1918–they were known as Azerbaijanis not as Caucasian Tartars or simply Muslims. Enemies must be opposed on ALL fronts, I think.
RVDV
Erroneously formulated……that of an independent Kurdistan WITHIN Turkey(or any country).How can a country be independent within another one.
You could indeed say/write and Autonomous Kurdistan within this that country …
jda
I did not know doomsday is nearing for Armenia´s SURVIVAL.I think you have to re-formulate your thoughts.
Armenia is not at the verge of collapse-extinction.it has been there, whether through its spiritual leaders(when invaded and kingdoms disappeared) or otherwise.The people have stood their ground and confronted all kinds of cathasthrophies….
Allies it hs:-Greece,Iran,Georgia(near neighbours) further away quite a few.Enemies? near all the world knows by know how Axerbaijan is viewing Hayastan-Ermenistan,not to mentioned older brother great Turkey that in now ay wishes to accept the Genocide her previous regimes perpetrated upon us.
Kerim, Abanians of Caucuses weren’t mono ethnic group. They were various tribes collectively called by foreigners Albanians, which means means in Latin people of the mountains. They didn’t disappear nor they become Azeries (shia turks). Their descendants still live in what today is called Azerbaijan. They are called Lezgins, Avars, Udins and number of others. Most of them live in republic of Dagestan, which in Turkish means Albania. Country of Mountains in Latin is Albania and in Turkish Dagestan. Mystery solved ))
Agree completely, Berj.
In a vacuum, what JDA writes is perfectly logical.
In real life, it just happens that the newcomers, TatarTurks and Turks, are the ones trying to erase our historic, indigenous presence from our ancestral lands.
Maybe I am remiss, but do not know of a single case of Iranians/Persians deliberately destroying historic evidence of Armenian presence on Armenian lands.
We do know that AzeriTatarTurks deliberately destroyed, as recently as 2005 for example, thousands of Armenian Khachkars in Nakhichevan, some of which were up to 1,500 years old.
Destroyed on video record.
Backed up by satellite imagery proof.
Why ?
So that a few decades from now they will claim these are ‘historic Azeri’ lands, and there were no Armenians living there – Ever.
Like they have already done to most of the Armenian lands they occupy.
Interestingly, the progeny of Turkic nomads are doing the same thing to another autochthonous ethnos, Persians: destroying evidence of ancient Iranian/Persian presence, and Turkifying it.
[Azerbaijan takes away traceries of Nizami Gyanjavi’s grave written in Persian: Iran’s MFA responds]
http://panorama.am/en/politics/2013/08/20/nizami-manat/
{“Azerbaijani authorities destroy the traceries of the grave of the Iranian poet Nizami Gyanjavi written in Persian,” the Iranian “azariha.org” reads.}
Here is the original article in Farsi.
I can’t read the text, but the pictures of destruction are pretty clear.
http://www.azariha.org/?lang=fa&muid=53&item=814
{“I also don’t support an independent Kurdistan within Turkey btw.”}
RVDV:
I am guessing you meant a Kurdistan carved out of the present footprint of the State of Turkey.
Or, an Independent Kurdistan, a very large chunk of which will come out of present Republic of Turkey, on the area we call Western Armenia, and Turks call Eastern Turkey. (….to presumably eventually coalesce with Iraqi Kurdistan, and possibly Syrian Kurdistan).
Correct ?
You have expressed that sentiment on other occasions.
It is puzzling.
Maybe you can explain to us why you take that position.
You know Kurds and Turkey better than I do, of course.
But from where I stand, I just don’t see Kurds remaining part of the State of Turkey in the future.
Kurds have not been struggling all this time just to gain the right to watch Kurdish language TV in Turkey.
It is not a universal sentiment of course amongst Kurds, but majority seem to want full rights now, autonomy next, and then independence.
(although publicly, for understandable reasons, Kurd politicians say otherwise regarding autonomy).
The natural human progression is that when the oppressor gives the oppressed some rights after having oppressed them for generations, the dam bursts: the oppressed are no longer satisfied. They want more. They want the max.
And from your vantage point as a Turk, would it not be better for everyone, including those who identify themselves as Turks, to separate ?
Turks are mostly on the Western part of Turkey: geographically the most desirable part.
And Greeks have no claim to it (as far as I know), so Turks can live there in peace.
Kurds presently in Turkey who want to be identified as Turks, will live in peace with other Turks: no more Kurdish issue.
Those who want to remain Kurds, can be politely asked to move to Kurdistan, and play Kurd there all day long.
Everybody happy.
As it is, Kurds are multiplying at about 3X the rate of Western Turkey.
Western Turkey birthrate has already dropped below replacement level.
PM Erdogan said in a speech a couple of years ago “….if trends continue, 2038 will be a year of disaster..” (paraphrased).
What he meant is that by 2038, it is projected that Kurds will become majority in Turkey, if present trends continue.
Eastern Turkey is mostly underdeveloped, undeveloped boondocks: why not leave it to Kurds and go away ?
A broken-up Turkey will be much better for Armenia and Armenians, of course. And some new issues will appear, naturally.
And we Armenians have to figure out an amicable, mutually beneficial mechanism as to how to resolve our conflicting land-claims with Kurds.
But that should not concern Turks.
“You have expressed that sentiment on other occasions.
It is puzzling.
Maybe you can explain to us why you take that position.”
.
Sure. Even though I identify as a Turk, I don’t hate Kurds or have any anti-Kurd feelings. I do support an independent Kurdistan, but not within Turkey. The primary actors for Kurdish independence in Turkey is the PKK. To me, and the UN, EU, NATO, and US, they are a terrorist organization, despite the fact that I can sympathize with their goals. The BDP is supposed to be Kurdish rights party in Turkey, but instead of respectfully distancing themselves from the PKK, they ask for the release of Ocalan, and some are so obviously PKK supporters its unbelievable. Under these circumstances, if Kurds got eastern Turkey, then terrorism wins and Turkey is no longer a legitimate state in my eyes. It sends a message to all separatist groups in the world: kill civilians, bomb residential areas, use chemical weapons (a mustard gas/sarin incident in 1996) attack poorly armed army outposts in the dead of night, never meet your adversary- hide and don’t be caught, and eventually they’ll just give up. Also, almost 30 years on, we’re in too deep. What if the US just gave up on the war on terror and left Afghanistan to the Taliban? Then why did so many soldiers die? What did they die for? Same with Turkey. Kurds must distance themselves from the action of the PKK. If they don’t they are sympathizers, collaborators, and share the blame. Neither Turkey nor any other state on earth can reward terrorism.
I understand.
How ironic that a so-called Turk is passing judgments on others and labeling them as terrorists. He must have forgotten the Turks were the biggest terrorists in the world. They have been terrorizing countless nations for centuries. As if that was not humorous enough, he uses the dysfunctional UN influenced by and 80% financed by the US which itself can unilaterally decide which country to invade and occupy, the spineless EU and the expansionist NATO with military bases in genocidal Turkey to further validate his point.
He then goes on saying Turkey won’t be a legitimate state in his eyes if it allowed a state be formed within its borders with acts of terrorism, such as bombing and killing civilians. The last time I checked, Turkey itself was created out of acts of terrorism, carved out of other people’s homelands by terroristic acts and created using far worse tactics, in an unimaginable scale in comparison, and genocide. In his eyes, based on his own words, he must also consider occupied Western Armenia illegitimate because its Armenian inhabitants were not only unable to stop Turkish terrorism to set roots in their homeland but they also “subjected themselves” to mass extermination by Turkish terrorism which led to the creation of the illegal state of Turkey. What a joke!
To be fair, my Euro-Turkish brother R2D2 is not responsible for Turkey’s past and present crimes. As such, he is free to call anyone a terrorist if there is a reasonable basis to do so.
Furthermore, I think it will benefit our cause if we do not antagonize our moderate Turkish brothers, as we may need them in our struggle against our more extremist Turkish siblings.
I agree with JDA regarding the relative futility of the “relative seniority” arguments. The problem with focusing on who is more native is that those who matter (i.e. the international community) do not care. The Turks and Azeris have basically lured us into a corner of irrelevant debates as to who is more native, and our leaders and intellectuals have followed the bait and fallen into the trap, while the rest of the world does not care, and the reasonable Armenians among us are watching the futile debates in frustration. Sure, the Azeris have lied to create their side of the debate, but it all works in their favor: while the most vocal among us debate as to who is more native, the world cares less about that and more about what country is currently occupied by a foreign force. It’s a losing position for us and a winning position for our Azeri brothers.
The issue of who is more native mattered when nationalism reigned free (before World War II). Prior to the age of nationalism, the issue was who was Christian, and we focused on that, until the French Revolution rendered that argument irrelevant. Then, for a while, during the era of nationalism, it mattered who is the first, until World War II rendered those arguments less relevant. In the current era of democracy (which, according to “Cloud Atlas,” will last forever), the world pays attention not to seniority but human rights. And we need the world’s opinion in our struggle. If we win on the argument that our human rights have been raped (figuratively and literally), and that we respect human rights more than our enemies, we will acquire a powerful weapon (we still do need other weapons, both economic and metallic). That is where our efforts should be directed to (and this is yet another benefit of establishing democracy in Armenia). We should still defend the true facts of history in a credible fashion. What we should avoid doing is wasting our time and credibility on ridiculous arguments such as “Turks and Azeris are savage nomads,” when, let’s face it, relatively speaking, Armenians currently are nomads to a greater extent than either Turks or the Azeris.
Avery,how deluded are you?, the idea of turkeys divison is just a wet dream ;)dont hold your breathe
RVDV
I wonder sometimes why “civilized” Turkey support Jihadism and terrorism in Syria??
I didn’t say Turkey was civilized and Kurds were uncivilized. I simply said that no self-respecting, legitimate state would ever reward terrorist activity in its own borders.
Don’t you guys have anything more interesting than talking about the’uncivilized’ Turks and immoral oil-soaked Azerbaijanis?? It is not 1915 anymore! There is no point in sdeeking retribution from the “Turks” or their nowadays ‘heirs’, which would only lead to another hate generation like yourselves spending their lifetime abhorring and demonizing the ‘other’, and which would only perpetuate this cycle of hatred and innocent blood shed. Seriously, there are bigger problems that WE all have to think about. At the end of the day, we are all the inhabitants of this one Earth, which is all slipping out of our hands while we are too busy blaming each other and feeding our egos. Wouldn’t it be better to let go of this endless hatred so the new generation would have something bigger to think about?? So they would have to think about SAVING something, not KILLING… PEACE
I agree, Nasrin, we should not hate. Some Armenians hate Turks and Azeris. I don’t. I hope you agree that same goes for Azeris. For example, that Azeri soldier killed the Armenian officer out of hatred, and many Azeris cheered. That’s wrong. But recognition and retribution for the genocide is a different matter. A great wrong was committed: the Armenian Genocide. Turkey never paid for that wrong. And for 100 years, it did everything so the world would forget it. Now, that’s wrong too. And Armenians want to correct that wrong. Because when genocides happen and are forgotten, they happen again. Surely you understand, right?