Ever since independence in 1991, Armenia’s leaders have been reluctant to make any concrete demands from Turkey beyond recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
Only in recent years, Armenian officials have begun to speak about “the elimination of the consequences of the genocide,” without specifying the “consequences” and the means for their “elimination.”
Earlier this month, however, a major shift was announced in Armenia’s foreign policy vis-à-vis Turkey, when Aghvan Hovsepyan, the prosecutor general of Armenia, called for the return of historic Armenian territories at an international conference of Armenian lawyers in Yerevan. This is the first time a high-ranking Armenian government official has made such a public demand from Turkey.
In a lengthy and comprehensive speech, Hovsepyan stated that the recognition of the Armenian Genocide by various countries is simply a moral and emotional issue. Calling for a switch to “the legal field,” he indicated that “to eliminate the consequences of the Armenian Genocide,” Turkey must “pay compensation to heirs of the Armenian Genocide, return to the Armenian Church the miraculously still-standing Armenian churches and properties in Turkey, and give back the ‘lost territories’ to the Republic of Armenia.”
Prosecutor General Hovsepyan insisted that unless Armenians adopt this bold approach, they will not accomplish any concrete results in the next hundred years, just as they did not in the last hundred years. He proposed a thorough legal review of all international agreements regulating Armenia-Turkey relations, from the Berlin Treaty of 1878 to the signed but not ratified protocols of 2009. He also declared that the region of Nakhichevan is “an inseparable part of Armenia, albeit occupied by Azerbaijan.” Hovsepyan urged the assembled lawyers from around the world to prepare the legal case for territorial demands from Azerbaijan and Turkey, and present it to the Armenian government for eventual submission to the International Court of Justice (World Court).
Statements made by a prosecutor general usually do not carry much weight in international affairs, if not for the fact that several other high-ranking officials, including President Serge Sarkisian, Constitutional Court President Gagik Haroutyunyan, Minister of Diaspora Hranush Hakobyan, Minister of Justice Hrair Tovmasyan, and Minister of Justice of Artsakh (Karabagh) Ararat Tanielyan, also made remarks on restitutive justice at the lawyers’ conference. It was clear that the prosecutor general was the designated spokesman of the Armenian government to articulate its new tougher line toward Turkey in advance of the Genocide Centennial.
President Sarkisian, using more circumspect language than the prosecutor general, told the lawyers’ conclave: “The international recognition and condemnation of the Armenian Genocide and elimination of its consequences will always remain a salient issue. As long as the Armenian state is in existence, all efforts to deny and send into oblivion this historical reality will be doomed. This greatest crime against humanity must be recognized and condemned once and for all, and first of all, by Turkey itself.”
In keeping with the government’s new policy orientation, Constitutional Court President Gagik Haroutyunyan announced that a special committee would be formed to prepare the legal documentation necessary for the pursuit of Armenian Genocide claims.
At the conclusion of the conference, the participants issued a joint statement asserting that the priority for Armenian lawyers is not proving the self-evident facts of the genocide, but preparing a comprehensive legal document “to remedy the consequences of the Armenian Genocide.”
This is a welcome development in terms of arriving at a consensus between the Armenian government and the Armenian Diaspora on the objectives to be pursued for the 100th anniversary of the genocide.
However, in order to move beyond mere emotionally inspiring statements, the Armenian leaders must take two immediate steps:
1) Withdraw the Armenian government’s signature from the counter-productive Armenia-Turkey protocols. On the eve of the Genocide Centennial, it would be inconceivable to move forward with fruitless efforts to improve relations with Turkey, while preparing to file a lawsuit for restitution.
2) Form a team of international law experts to begin structuring the legal case against Turkey in the World Court and/or the European Court of Human Rights.
While skeptics may not take seriously the recent policy pronouncements of the Armenian authorities, the Turkish Foreign Ministry has no such doubts. Last week, Ankara denounced the Armenian territorial demands, announcing angrily that “nobody can dare to claim territory from Turkey!”
Harut Sassounian
Your proposals are both excellent and necessary, Harut, but “time is of the essence.” Most of the survivors have not lived to see justice. Those of us from the first generation born after the Genocide are now elderly. We witnessed the suffering of our survivor parents and grandparents in their life-long grief for murdered family and friends. We know their persistent longing for their confiscated land. Our demands for acknowledgment and reparation must be acted on quickly.
By the time a case is put together against Turkey and by the time there is a ruling on that case it is hard to believe there will be anything left from Turkey. The biggest piece left might be “it’s” ear.
The Godless People have five principles…
RAPE-KILL-CONFISCATE-DENY-HATE without end…
RAPE-KILL-CONFISCATE-DENY-HATE ? Is this the level the Armenian Weekly wants to stoop too? I think it is time we stop this kind of thoughtless street talk. Is there a mediator here or not? There are more and more Turks who accept the Genocide as fact and are working, much harder in fact than most of our institutions (church, Armenian gov., diasporan parties, etc.) to bring justice. This kind of talk is cheap and untrue. Honorable Turks do exist now– Zarakoglu and company comes to though. We should celebrate and advertise them, make movies about them…. hint to Kirkorian and his MGM.
As a first generation Armenian-American, I can’t believe how incredibly futile and foolish this effort is, and the silly, naive nature of the (likely diasporan) author. Is it morally right? Of course it is. However, is this something that actually will EVER happen? Absolutely not, and the cost of pursuing this impractical course will be very tangible on the last piece of land we DO own. Childish bravado in a geopolitical situation that basically has our home country checkmated, with a continuously eroding population and inevitable absorption of diasporan communities into their host countries. We only have so much energy, money, and credibility. It would be far better to apply that to our CURRENT issues, than trying to acquire land from a country that is not only highly antagonistic to us, but far more advanced economically, and militarily. What a waste of time, and what a shame to be so obsessed with this impossible outcome while we let our brothers and sisters in our homeland go to waste.
Russia and Western powers tried it but failed to realize this utopia in WW1 …If Armenia desires to declare war on Turkey it is ok for us..no problem
no atilla, we will wait until we are strong , guarantee our victory, then declare it. just like azerbaijan is trying to do, since they are too cowardly to declare war especially after losing !
at least armenia has the guts to say it, has the guts to survive a genocide and with a fist of fury still be determined to win !!!!
I want the Armenians to open up their archives as did the Turks. I belive you owe us big time. Get real and do the right thing.
Armenian archives that are on the public domain have always been open. It’s the Turks who started to open their archives eight decades later, when all sorts of cleanups had already been done.
Open Armenian archives (they are open and unaltered, too, btw) to see what?! How the Armenian government centrally planned mass murder, mutilations, tortures, and forced deportations of the Turks from their native lands in the Mongolian steppes?
As an Azeri, I am glad to hear that Armenian government is finally doing this. It is like watching the other side make a big chess error. Attitude like this will make Turkey even more anti-Armenia and to help Azeris even more, to fight now their proxy war whenever a good opportunity arises (e.g., Russia becomes busy with some kind of an internal problem). It is just a rule of thumb — dont’ make powerful enemies, or, if you must make them, at least don’t do so openly. Armenia would never aggravate Turkey like this openly, was it not for the Russian support. But you are paying a high price for this support. Russia now owns you! You give up your current, real, tangible Armenia so that you can chase the phantom one. Now, Azerbaijan and Turkey will negotiate directly with Russia, the real owners of Armenia, over Armenia and Karabak. Imagine this scenario. Putin calls Sarkissian and orders him to vacate 3 of the occupied districts outside of Karabak. Could Sarkissian ever say no? Of course, not. Mr. Putin will then jack up the gas price thru Gasprom and Armenians populace will be in the street asking for and getting Sarkissian’s resignation. It will therefore be in Sarkissian’s (or whoever)personal interests to do as told. As I have said before, we may have lost Karabak, but our conflict with you has driven you to lose the whole of Armenia. It is a good chess move … not that we intended it that way … still, we are glad to see it. Russia will next force you into their Eurasian custom union, suck the blood of your economy thru “free trade”, alienate Armenia from EU, etc, etc. So, ok, keep on dreaming. The reality in the meantime will bite in your sleep.
Beautiful scenario Karim,dream on.This is what the Arabs dreamed of by raising the petrol prices in 1973 to force a change with the US policy towards Israel & the reality is???
In another post you were distancing yourself from Turkey & here you are showing your real color.Keep in mind that any wrong move by your corrupt sultan the result will be the loss of Nakhichevan.
It is important for Turkey to recognize the genocide. Our demands that our (Armenian) heritage is saved from destruction in Turkey is also very commendable but asking for compensation and land back from Turkey seems to me completely unacceptable. This will completely alienate Turkey now and in the future and will delay the acceptance of the genocide. This will leave us with a hostile neighbor which we can ill afford under the circumstances that exist in Armenia.
TViger, it is not black and white: either Azeris are Turks, or Azeris hate Turks. Our alliance, like most, is a complex and nuanced ones. I personally think your territorial claims against Turkey, and even some of your claims against Azerbaijan (not all) are just idealistically. But to think that you can get what “justice demands”, no matter what the reality is, is naive. And I think it is not only naive but also dangerous for Armenia to actually OFFICIALLY advance territorial claims against a much more powerful Turkey. I know your appetite has been whetted because of the Karabak war (and shame on us Azeris for that) but Turkey is not Azerbaijan. As an Azeri, I am glad to see you guys make this strategic mistake, because it will draw Turkey closer to our position, and “brotherhood” alone is never enough in such matters. It is better if their own personal interests push them in our direction, and mistakes like this one by Armenia help that. If/when a new war break out with Azerbaijan (and hopefully it does not), it will be in Turkey’s interest to weaken Armenian further so that they can never be in a position to do anything about their claims against Turkey.
Karim,you better read the article again…”He proposed a thorough legal review of all international agreements regulating Armenia-Turkey relations, from the Berlin Treaty of 1878 to the signed but not ratified protocols of 2009. He also declared that the region of Nakhichevan is “an inseparable part of Armenia, albeit occupied by Azerbaijan.” Hovsepyan urged the assembled lawyers from around the world to prepare the legal case for territorial demands from Azerbaijan and Turkey, and present it to the Armenian government for eventual submission to the International Court of Justice (World Court).”
Already Turkey is sucking out your oil & gas quite cheaply as you well know…That’s Turkey’s ‘brotherhood’ & your sultan’s demi guarantee to stay in power & suck out your nation’s blood.Soon you’ll run out of oil & then we’ll see the limits of that ‘brotherhood’.
You’ve already forgotten that article?Here’s the link again, re-read it:
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2013/07/how-azerbaijan-is-like-em-the-godfather-em/277717/
Dear Karim, you and your turkish azeri brain types things like it is exactly how things appear to be, how on earth can you think armenia is about to be entirely destroyed if they won karabakh you idiot!!! you show typical obsession of destruction of armenia entirely, so yes you really area a turk.
i will remind you, you live in the 21st century, the days of entire nations being finished are gone ! your turkishness must change, this is the reason why there is no peace !
last but not least, you people live in a dreamworld and have the most bizarre fantasies about the world around you. its called a mental illness, you need help.
thanks and have a great life.
This is like Indians demanding land from US.
Levon: We already have a “hostile neighbor” which is “completely alienated” from us. This is a tactic frequently used by perpetrators. They think that if they can blame the victim, enforce punitive measures, and persist in denial, they will appear innocent. Read the uneducated nonsense written above by Mustapha Seralp. Genocide scholars throughout the world long ago reached consensus and listed denial and failure to make reparation as being the final stage of genocide.
You feel it is “important for Turkey to recognize the genocide.” Is that all? So, if someone comes into your house at night and rapes your daughter and murders your son and then your wife and cleans out all your electronics and steals your safety deposit box and burns down your house and then stones your mother to death after shooting your father, all you want is a – oops, sorry! – from them? All you want is for them to smirk and “recognize the genocide” and save a handful of monasteries by turning them into museums with the Turk flag on top? Really?
Thank god for Levon! Because by dropping territorial demands, that means you guys are really working for peace with your neighbors. By having territorial demands, that means you guys want to erase Turkey off the map. I hope there are more Levons to come for fair and just Turkish-Armenian normalization of ties. God bless Levon!
Yes, Rifat, and by threatening to drop bombs on Armenia (Turgut Özal in 1993), closing the border, imposing a blockade, and refusing to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia you guys are really working for peace with your neighbors. And by perpetrating genocide in 1915-1923 you guys already erased and forcibly deported 2 million Western Armenians off the map. Look in the mirror, what do you see?
I hope Hovsepyan got a few free dinners out of making his comment, or at least a few rounds of congratulatory drinks, because that is all any Armenian will ever get from these sort of naive and pointless “demands”.
To Takavor: If I were a law professor, I’d use your post with my students as a good example of reading comprehension problems (because I never had said such a thing as “destruction of Armenia”), ad hominem fallacy, and just good old plain poor grammar (is the period button broken on your computer or something)? Please feel free to continue showing your class further but I won’t be responding.
To Perouz: You say we already have in Turkey a hostile neigbor. Here is a fallacy in your thinking … someone can become even MORE hostile. It is not just a binary thing, hostile vs non-hostile.
To VTiger: Yes, I understand, Armenians are urged to dig in old historical agreements for clues/tips for questioning the modern international law in the context of UN-recognized borders. Imagine what kind of a mess the world would be if the others too did the same thing? I am really puzzled about this psychological need for Armenians to “restore” the Great Armenia of 1000+ years ago. I refuse to believe that you guys really believe this to be feasible. Why then bother? What kind of a pyshological need does this behaviour satisfy in your minds? What kind of a complex? Look, you don’t even have enough Armenians for your Armenia and people are living. Who is going to live in these vast lands you want to have? Or is just a fantasy you relish living in Sunny California?
Karim,as far as I remember,in several of your posts you have accepted the Genocide & its recognition,correct?What is the use of your Genocide acceptance if you do not see/support the return of all the stolen lands which was the disastrous outcome of the Genocide?Why are we the Armenians scattered around the world, homeless for the last 98 years & craving to go back?
Whether this is feasible or not only time will tell.Artsakh was supposed to be not feasible right?Next is Nakhichevan.Do not worry about us & what we’ll do with our vast lands in case we recover them.What is your sultan doing with its vast lands?
Following your logic that there aren’t enough Armenians in current Armenia then your sultan should make a move right?
Karim I am not in sunny CA, but I watch Turkic tribes movements….Armenians are in 4 corners of the world after genocide, and if Armenia needs our services we will be there to reshape Axeri’s land for the last time!! UN recognize the artificial created Axeri border, voted by 43 corrupted Islamic nations, minus Iran!!
Is there any stupid or naiv to believe that Armenians will give up to their historical rights……12 millions Armenians from all over the world(few millions forced islimised Armenians also are coming back to their national roots in Western Occupied Armenia Under turkish criminogen occupation)will use all means to get back their stolen homeland nobody should doubt about that…also it doesn’t wort to talk about an artificial fake country called “azairbaijan never existed in the history such “country” created by khemalist-panturcists shits on the Armenian,Lezghian,Talish,Oudikh lands……without talking about the 20 millions kurdish military political struggle on Western Armenian region and Kurdistan soo turkey’s postion also quite unclear and dangerous in other words Armenian nation should profite of all contradictions in order to liberate Armenian occupied lands,we should be optimistic in long run, turkish barking dogs-occupiers -deneyers can’t do against that geoplitical reality…..military and economical rise of Armenia in the future will make easier to solve our national problems…….
Armenia is the second worst economy in the world, 40% of population lives in poverty, 100000 people leave the country each year and demands lands from TURKEY? LOL
Dreaming is not harmful
Gazprom
The Armenian territorial demands from Turkey are nothing new. The Armenian Genocide recognition and the liberation of the Turkish-occupied Western Armenian provinces are tied together. The Western Armenian provinces are under Turkish occupation because they were emptied of the indigenous Armenians by mass extermination and genocide. You can not speak of one without the other.
The Armenian Diaspora, created by Turkey as a result of the Armenian Genocide in 1915, and ever since its dispersion throughout the world has never stopped demanding the return of the confiscated Armenian territories from Turkey. The only thing that has changed is that the Armenian Republic is fully in-line with the Diasporan demands from Turkey, thus its public declaration of its demands. This is not to say the Armenian Republic and the Armenian Diaspora differed in their demands from Turkey previously but rather it is a strong indication that, after 70 years of Soviet occupation, Armenia as a free and an independent state no longer feels stifled by a foreign entity and is making public and expressing its rightful demands from Turkey by showing solidarity with its genocide-driven Diasporan brethren. As a matter of fact, Armenia displayed its free will and the spirit of independence and unity with the Diasporan aspirations by the liberation of the ancient Armenian province of Artsakh, aka Karabakh, as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed some 20 years prior to its public declaration of territorial demands from Turkey.
Furthermore, there is no so-called “brotherhood” between Turkey and Azerbaijan. This is a fallacy and a political propaganda tactic invented by these two governments because even 22 years ago, prior to Azerbaijani independence from the Soviet Union, these two nations were unfamiliar and alien to each other. It is the proverbial phrase “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” that brings these two alien nations together. There is no real fraternity between them but rather they are using each other to Armenia’s detriment, their perceived common enemy.
The Azerbaijanis, on the other hand, are bribing and using Turkey for leverage and support in return for cheap oil because Azerbaijan without Turkey is isolated, not to mention surrounded by multiple enemies, and not only incapable of doing anything against Armenia but facing a real threat from Iran. In fact, the serious threat from Iran is directly related to Azerbaijan establishing close relation with Israel, the arch enemy of Iran. Also, fearing the same faith as Georgia in 2008 from the Russians, Azerbaijan is carefully measuring its steps toward close relations with NATO alliance in Russia’s backyard.
The public declaration by Armenia of territorial demands from Turkey is absolutely the right thing and the righteous thing to do and it does not bring Turkey and Azerbaijan falsely any closer than they already were. After all, it is not recent news that the genocidal Turkish government has on numerous occasions referred to Azerbaijan as an “extension” of Turkey, a euphemism for Pan-Turkism at the expense of Armenia, clearly confirming that today’s Turkey is no different from the genocidal Turkey of 1915.
Some of our compatriots seem to be ‘more catholic than the pope’. Armenia is not declaring war on Turkey. It intends to put forth a legal claim before the World Court, which every country has the right to. This does not yet mean the World Court will immediately grant the demand. But, conisdering the fact that there is more than sufficient evidence to substantiate that claim, at least as far as it concerns the Kars Treaty of 1921 whereby Armeneian territories were ceded to third countries by an advance agreement by the new Russian and Turkish governments, it will at least be a valuable reminder to the world about the brutal treatment Armenia has received from friend and foe in the region.
As for antagonizing Turkey, Turkey does not need to be antagonized, it is virtually at war with Armenia now by the act of blockade. As the things stand now there is no likelihood any time soon it will recognize the Armenian Genocie either.
Well said.
.
{“Some of our compatriots seem to be ‘more catholic than the pope’.”}
Indeed: legacy of centuries of domination by foreign powers.
And our Achilles heal for centuries.
Whenever we have presented a united front to our adversaries, we have prevailed against impossible odds.
Correction: This is the full text of my remark. The previous post was missing a paragraph.
The Armenian territorial demands from Turkey are nothing new. The Armenian Genocide recognition and the liberation of the Turkish-occupied Western Armenian provinces are tied together. The Western Armenian provinces are under Turkish occupation because they were emptied of the indigenous Armenians by mass extermination and genocide. You can not speak of one without the other.
The Armenian Diaspora, created by Turkey as a result of the Armenian Genocide in 1915, and ever since its dispersion throughout the world has never stopped demanding the return of the confiscated Armenian territories from Turkey. The only thing that has changed is that the Armenian Republic is fully in-line with the Diasporan demands from Turkey, thus its public declaration of its demands. This is not to say the Armenian Republic and the Armenian Diaspora differed in their demands from Turkey previously but rather it is a strong indication that, after 70 years of Soviet occupation, Armenia as a free and an independent state no longer feels stifled by a foreign entity and is making public and expressing its rightful demands from Turkey by showing solidarity with its genocide-driven Diasporan brethren. As a matter of fact, Armenia displayed its free will and the spirit of independence and unity with the Diasporan aspirations by the liberation of the ancient Armenian province of Artsakh, aka Karabakh, as soon as the Soviet Union collapsed some 20 years prior to its public declaration of territorial demands from Turkey.
Furthermore, there is no so-called “brotherhood” between Turkey and Azerbaijan. This is a fallacy and a political propaganda tactic invented by these two governments because even 22 years ago, prior to Azerbaijani independence from the Soviet Union, these two nations were unfamiliar and alien to each other. It is the proverbial phrase “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” that brings these two alien nations together. There is no real fraternity between them but rather they are using each other to Armenia’s detriment, their perceived common enemy.
Turkey alarmed by the post-Soviet Armenian reawakening, as well the Diasporan victories and advances in the Armenian Genocide recognition throughout the world, is using the Armenian liberation victory against Azerbaijan to put pressure on the Armenians to give up on their demands from Turkey and not because it cares for the welfare of Azerbaijan. A prime example of this fear and selfish move was the Turkish closing of its borders with Armenia when Turkey never was a direct party to the conflict between Armenia and Azerbaijan.
The Azerbaijanis, on the other hand, are bribing and using Turkey for leverage and support in return for cheap oil because Azerbaijan without Turkey is isolated, not to mention surrounded by multiple enemies, and not only incapable of doing anything against Armenia but facing a real threat from Iran. In fact, the serious threat from Iran is directly related to Azerbaijan establishing close relation with Israel, the arch enemy of Iran. Also, fearing the same faith as Georgia in 2008 from the Russians, Azerbaijan is carefully measuring its steps toward close relations with NATO alliance in Russia’s backyard.
The public declaration by Armenia of territorial demands from Turkey is absolutely the right thing and the righteous thing to do and it does not bring Turkey and Azerbaijan falsely any closer than they already were. After all, it is not recent news that the genocidal Turkish government has on numerous occasions referred to Azerbaijan as an “extension” of Turkey, a euphemism for Pan-Turkism at the expense of Armenia, clearly confirming that today’s Turkey is no different from the genocidal Turkey of 1915.
dear Karim
i am not classy, i am not here to try to sweet talk you, the fact is you are here as an azeri to argue, and provoke something, that is why ppl respond to you. you wish you were a professor, your not !
some people know the facts, and as i said, you are in a wonderland with turkish beliefs that are ridiculous.
please get a life and try to normalize your own attitude before trying to make armenians look bad, this is the same tactic used by your people to justify an attack on armenians,
we all know the hidden agenda, your not good at hiding it !
heres proof of what you said ” As I have said before, we may have lost Karabak, but our conflict with you has driven you to lose the whole of Armenia. ”
deny this now you fool !
This is absurd! A hare-brained scheme that will certainly further alienate our already-isolated country and yield absolutely no tangible results. Which imbeciles believe that these irredentist claims actually have a chance? Armenia has enough domestic problems without reigniting centuries-old antagonisms! We must focus on attaining the international recognition of the Genocide, rather than begging our neighbors for lands for which we have no use.
Why are people getting excited about these comments? Karim is right. Armenia is but a vassal of Russia. The leaders of Armenia are scoundrels. Instead of providing work and justice to the Armenian people, they make pronouncements such as these to fool the ignorant and hopeful diaspora. These leaders can’t even govern the little land that they have. We Armenians have a demographic crisis. If the Turks ever did give the lands back, what would happen to Armenia? Armenians would be a minority in their own country.
The Genocide happened. The Turks must come to terms with this.
However, Armenia’s leaders should govern the sliver of land well. Diaspora Armenians should demand this first!!! Let us not lose sight of this and be so easily fooled by the manipulations of Armenia’s oligarchs.
Ararat: thank you for taking the time to write this highly informative comment.
Ok, yes, I should get a life. I will give you that. In the meantime, it is still fun to debate (without name-calling of course) and no debate/conversation is more satisfying (at least to me) than with people who completely and totally disagree with your perspective. So that is why I am here on AW and thanks to AW moderators for indulging me, and to those Armenian commenters engaging with me intelligently. For name-callers, please please just ignore me. I come in peace.
Now, yes, I believe in the Genocide. And that Turkey should do something to set it right, such as reparations or even a symbolic granting of small territory, such as Mount Ararat (sorry, I am not sure if it is small or big). But as to demanding anything the way your guy has recently done … well, that is just plain unrealistic and dangerous for Armenia. Yes, Turkey is not friendly (and yes, I won’t call it hostile, because “defending” itself against genocide claims is not being hostile. It has not attacked you, or anything like that). But it can become hostile if you keep coming up with such demands.
And going to court to demand a land? Really? I am shocked to think that anyone would believe a court decision would be of any use. Or any review of dusty historical documents. Turkey will be like, “well, come and get it then.” Or do you think the Norwegian/Bangladeshi tanks will try to do it on your behalf. I mean, seriously, how do you envision this thing working out? Please enlighten me. Sanctions by EU unless Turkey follows the court order? Really? Turkey would advise them to go and revisit their own border documentation from 1000 years ago. And why exactly would the international community so destabilize the current international system because of the tiny Armenia? Why? This is where you temporary victory in Karabak has gotten into your heads. Yes, dream big. But defeating a poor country without a functioning government in the post-Soviet disintegration world is not the same thing as getting a land from Turkey, one of the most powerful armies in the world (and maybe during the next phase of the war, Turkey will help Azeris more, so that Armenia does not dream big next time – which is why you should not antagonize it gratuitously like this). I am just really really puzzled. I am begging you, please, explain to me how this land-return could ever work. Are you going to attack Turkey? Ask Russia to do it? Should the NJ senators pass a law in the US congress drawing Turkey’s borders? If not how else?
Armen and Stepan,
Of course there is the possibility that the issue might be used, and in fact misused, by the oligarchic rulers of Armenia to appease the Diasproa or for internal consumption. We should be watchful for this. And I agree that any claims regarding West Armenia should be left for the Diaspora to deal with. But whatever territory was ceded to Turkey and Azerbaijan by the Kars treaty belonged to Eastern or Russian Armenia. Present day Armenia, the heir of that Armenia, is thus entitled to at least give the public the awareness about how those lands were carved away from Armenia and how the population was evacuated or persecuted, a design which eventually formed part of the Genocide.
Kerim Khan, in the last 100 years fake Neo-Ottomans never had a war to check their “mighty” army…I see what they did in Syria, they send all terrorists there but no soldiers and I am sure NJ senators know how Turkey behaving in Middle East. American unnecessary causalities in Iraq war caused directly by Turks and still is fresh in NJ Senators head…they know double faced Turks don’t have a courage but BARKING like your oil Sheikdom’s Sultan. “Gharehhbagh” is gone for ever and will be one part of ancient Armenian provinces plus Nakhijevan and Western Armenia..we are 8 to 12 Millions around the world, therefore we don’t rely on any power, but ourselves…this is why we will make sure to have the best armaments for our soldiers, who are willing to fight and die for a real cause, that you genocidal coward turks will never understand, until we thrown you out from our occupied territories!!
http://www.policymic.com/articles/55567/syria-s-civil-war-is-breaking-turkey-s-frail-peace-with-the-kurds
Finally for once Davotoglu said something correct. He said ARmenians should know the capacity of their limits. Indeed we ARmenians don’t know the capacity of our collective limits. If we don’t know our capacity then how would Turks know. When we do find out our capacity then we will get Western ARmenia back.
Stepan and Armen,
It is indeed very likely that the oligarch thugs who run the country may use, or rather misuse, this issue to appease the Diaspora or for internal consumption. We should be watchful for this. It is also logical to say that West Armenia should be left to Diaspora Armenians to deal with and Armenia should not officially meddle with it. But whatever territory which was ceded to Turkey and Azerbaijan by the Kars Treaty belonged to Eastern Armenia aka Russian Armenia. The present Armenian state, that is, the heir to Eastern Armenia should thus be entitled to raise the issue if only to give awareness to the world public about this historical fact and the evacuation and persecution of the population of the ceded territories, an episode which eventually formed part of the Armenian Genocide.
Karim, I think here we can see the essential gap between armenian psyche and “azeri-turk” one. On one hand, you guys, I mean the smart ones, see the world with a cold-hearted view, full of strategical comments and stuff. This is not a blame from me. You’re probably right. At least, you follow the trend of modern thinking, a.k.a cynicism-realism.
On the other hand, Armenians are a lethally wounded nation. I mean, our modern dream, a.k.a “Liberty after centuries of progressive segregation” has already been destroyed 100 years ago. What is left now is merely a bantustan (in where you can’t even let us rest in peace btw). It’s like being amputated of 9/10 of your body : you can’t go anywhere except craziness. Furthermore, the fact that you guys still see us as christian sheep – legal to be killed – puts our backs to the wall. We used to be rather submissive (depending on the places and periods, of course) after the falls of our last kingdoms : we ended up considered like sheep, due to the religious segregation. We began to claim some consideration : omg! rebelling sheep and thus slaughtered. We eventually defended Karabagh : sheep with rifles, working for shepherd Russia. Whatever we do you still don’t accept us as human beings, be it Azeris or Turks (well, things change in Turkey but it’s slow). But it’s not your fault. The ethno-religious intolerance is a very powerful thing and in the Middle East, it has had plenty of time to flourish.
The hilarious thing is that genetical studies points us as genetically close brothers (yeah, elite dominance and language / religion replacement have been more effective than racial-nationalist theoricians would have liked to) and that Turks are closer to Armenians than to Azeris, and Azeris closer to Armenians than to Turks.
But anyway, I’m going off-topic : what I wanted to say is that we, as a people, are too pathetically wounded to think strategically as you do. We have already been through the worst of what could happen to us. Now we just shout to recall what happened so nobody will forget. Turkey won’t be happy ? So what. Turkey has already built its existence and economy upon our elimination.
You know, this has long time ago become the armenian karma. I think we got this with the christian thing and the incredible nightmare that have been our history of being a distinct ancient population pretending to preserve its identity while living in one of the most permanent battlefield in the world. We eventually developped a martyrdom tradition. We fought plenty of battles we were sure to lose, and patiently endured unbearable events that should have long time ago raise the alarm for global rebellion. “milleti sadıka” hahaha. Yeah, it kinda sucks.
Your own ancestors were probably right, be they Aghbanians, Armenians, Iranian-speaking, etc etc. Mingling into the muslim melting-pot was the best way to ensure their children won’t have a crappy life of second-rate people.
But our own ancestors chose not to. And now our region is an incredible mess, isn’t it ?
Anyway, take care. I, as an Armenian love you both, Turks and Azeris, as much as I love the entire humanity and creation btw. I hope one day there will be nothing else than brotherhood in that region of the world (but no, not through assimilation or physical elimination, you nasty cold-hearted strategist I can read in your mind ;) ). But to achieve this… A lot of nationalistic (and religious) crap will have to vanish. And God knows there is plenty of it out there.
Haha, this guy (Serzh Sarksyan) is so sneaky! Doesn’t anyone see what he is doing? This is not about getting our lands back. It is about maintaining his powerhold on Armenia. He is trying to neutralize Diasporan lawyers as spearheads of democracy in Armenia and a potential threat to his corrupt regime. The Armenian-American lawyers have been very active recently in voicing their support for the pro-democracy forces in Armenia and for a change in the regime.
Right after the elections, the Armenian Bar Association, the main organization of Armenian lawyers in America, recognized Raffi Hovhannisyan as resident:
http://www.armenianbar.com/news/show/250/1
The vice-chairman of the organization, Garo Ghazaryan, personally flew to Yerevan to participate in the protests: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbE8u26gAhE
On May 28, 2013, the ABA held a celebration for the Independence Day, right across Armenia’s consulate in Glendale. Raffi was there, and obviously there were not-so-kind statements about Serzh and his regime:
http://www.armenianbar.com/events/archive/0/171
Armenian attorneys are in the unique position to help bring about democracy in Armenia. They know how a successful democracy works, they can help draft a workable constitution for a democratic Armenia, and they can do much to put a pressure on Yerevan’s regime. So, what does Serzh do? He gives them a toy to play with (“yeah, go research from Berlin’s congress to the Protocols, and please take your time”), so they will be off his back. And in the meanwhile, he and his regime will keep stealing from Armenia and driving the population away.
This guy is a chess player, and this is his next master move! Everything that he does is calculated to keep his power. When he goes to the restroom, it’s to keep his power. There is no way to consistently explain his “policy shift” in light of his Protocols, and his defense of Obama’s use of “Medz Yeghern,” which was a backstab to Diaspora’s efforts for recognition. The only way to explain it all is to see that each step is meant to keep his power. He did the Protocols and defended Obama to please the Great Powers, because, in the absence of democracy, they are guarantors of his power, not the Armenian people. And now, he gives Armenian lawyers “worldwide” this task to make sure that they are no longer a threat to him.
And mark my words, his regime is only going to pay a lip service to the lawyers’ efforts, because the great powers (Russia, U.S. etc) are going to pressure him to stay off Turkey (in the name of reconciliation). So, when the lawyers’ efforts fail, his regime will blame them for “ineffectiveness” and “disunity.” Works perfect for him!
Our lawyers cannot fall for this trap. Yes, we do need to bring our cause to international tribunals, and I have always been a staunch supporter of that. And our case needs to be well-prepared and well-researched. But we also need to bring democracy and rule-in-law to Armenia, the only way to save our homeland, or else it will bleed to death. And our lawyers are key in this. They can draft a constitution, help the pro-democracy forces in Armenia understand how a proper democratic system works, and put pressure on the government.
Remember, we had the ultimate legal and diplomatic victory in 1920: the treaty of Sevres. Yet it was worthless without a strong Armenia. And we need to make Armenia stronger, and the only way to do it is to make it a land where the Armenian people want to live in and invest in. The only way to do it is to make Armenia a democracy. Our path to our lands is through a democratic Armenia. If Armenia becomes a democracy, we will have an Armenia from Kura to Euphrates. Otherwise, the current republic will end up just like the first one did in 1920.
Armenia should worry about feeding it’s own people first.
Why thank you: we greatly appreciate progeny of savage, nomadic, Asiatic, thieving Turkic invaders showing concern for Armenia.
What we would do without you genocidal Turks ?
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About that ‘feeding’ thing: here, nomad Turk – worry about feeding your own.
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[Mother of impoverished family commits suicide in Adana]
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-274467-mother-of-impoverished-family-commits-suicide-in-adana.html
{The mother of two children Emine Akçay hanged herself after she was unable to pay for food to feed her children or for coal to keep them warm in the southern province of Adana, the Vatan daily reported on Friday.}
{“ Armenia is the second worst economy in the world, 40% of population lives in poverty, 100000 people leave the country each…”} (Orxan // July 18, 2013 at 12:31 pm // )
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Orxan:
Haven’t seen you around here before: welcome.
We treat our Anti-Armenian Turkish guests with utmost consideration.
Allow me to respond at length to your short, misinformed post: we strive to help the innocent victims of Turkish Ministry of misEducation and Propaganda.
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The Forbes propagated myth that Armenia supposedly has the 2nd worst economy in the world was debunked and refuted right after the Turkophile neocon hit-piece came out. But it is soothing to your shattered Turkish psyche, suffering from a massive inferiority complex to believe that myth to be true.
Go to CIA Factbook, rank the Per Capita GDP (PPP), and see if you can prove RoA has the 2nd worst economy in the world.
(or, maybe not: out of about 200 economies listed, Armenia is about midway – I already checked)
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Poverty in Armenia ? Of course: nobody is denying it. About 30%-35% of the population lives below statistical poverty line.
Actually not too bad considering RoA is only 20 years old, suffered a devastating earthquake just before independence, economic base completely dismantled after USSR breakup, was involved in a 4 year war, is landlocked, is under blockade, has no free money gushing out of its soil, did not steal 100s of billions of somebody else’s wealth, and on, and on.
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100,000 leave the country every year ? Sure: to go to work in Russia (mostly).
At the end of the year they come back.
Is there outmigration ? Of course: but no different than most other former republics of USSR.
Including Azerbaijan.
Including Georgia.
Including Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania – right in the middle of Europe: with none of the geopolitical problems Armenia is facing.
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Let us now take a look at how ‘booming’, ‘prosperous’ Turkey is doing:
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[One-third of Turks are poor or needy: Ministry’s report]
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/one-third-of-turks-are-poor-or-needy-ministrys-report.aspx?pageID=238&nID=48364&NewsCatID=341
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[Mother of impoverished family commits suicide in Adana]
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-274467-mother-of-impoverished-family-commits-suicide-in-adana.html
{The mother of two children Emine Akçay hanged herself after she was unable to pay for food to feed her children or for coal to keep them warm in the southern province of Adana, the Vatan daily reported on Friday.}
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[Biting back against child poverty begins in school cafeterias]
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-268594-biting-back-against-child–poverty-begins-in-school-cafeterias.html
{One in every four children in Turkey lives in poverty and despite the fact that Turkey has the 16th largest economy in the world, the country ranks bottom amongst the 34 member countries of the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD).} (….did it really say _bottom_ ?)
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I guess because Turkey is such a prosperous paradise is the reason that about 5 million citizens of Turkey escaped the Turkish paradise to scratch out a living in the ghettos of Christian Europe ?
Even after stealing US$100s of billions (in today’s dollars) of the wealth created by Christians and Jews; even after Europe invested US$10s of billions in Turkey; even after US$ billions in grants and low-cost loans from the West (IMF) – you guys still have a 30% poverty rate.
A Turkish mother commits suicide because she has no money to feed her children. In 2012. In ‘prosperous’ Turkey.
See if you can find anything comparable in Armenia, arrogant nomad Turk.
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You boastful Turks would have the same standard of living as the Central Asian __stans or Mongolia, if not for Christian Europe.
Take a wild guess how you Turks ended up next door to Europe: you do know your ancestral homeland is next to Uyguristan, don’t you nomad ?
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And if you Turks are so proud and industrious, why are your leaders begging, for the past 20+ years, to be accepted into the Christian club EU ?
EU keeps saying “No: go away”, but ‘proud’ Turks can’t take a hint.
You guys are losers: with all the geographic advantages, all the stolen wealth of murdered Christians, all the massive help from the wealthy West for past 90 years – dysfunctional, broken down Greece has 1.6X Turkey’s PPP.
Got that Turk ? With all their problems, Greeks have a much higher standard of living than the supposedly booming wonderland of Turkey.
Losers.
Avery: weve been an EU candidate since the late 50s, when it was first formed, not just the past 20 years or so. 60 years of rejection, you have to admire our spirit and commitment though.
Avery, what museum did you escape from? Your bigoted way of speaking is reminiscent of 1800s. E.g., you are so blind to your bigotry that you don’ even notice such obvious give-aways as openly using the term ‘Asiatic’ as if it is a cuss word. What is jaw-dropping is that … well, where do you think Armenia is, if not in Asia? Or do you think Armenia is in Europe? This ignorance would be the only instance of proud ignorance in your posts … you just keep referring to modern Turks as nomads, blah blah. What basis do you have for this? Science is out. Educate yourself. Modern Turks are a local people, speaking Turkish due to the elite language domination path of ethnogenesis. Just do a basic Google search, Turks and DNA. You can spew out your hatred ignorance all you want, but reality does not change thereby. And, if, and it is a big IF, even if someone’s ancestor was a Nomad 1500 years ago, how does that make the modern person you are speaking of a nomad. It is breathtaking how ignorantly hateful your posts are. And if you live in the US, I am sure you would cringe if you thought of your American friends and neighbors reading your posts here … If you have immigrated to the US, you have definitely remained un-American. In America, such ethnic hatred and bigotry is something to be ashamed of. Fine, push Turkey to recognize Genocide, to do X, Y, and Z … but do you really have to descend into such rancid diatribe against someone’s ethnicity?
Good lesson, Avery!
Avery; good post but you left out why they have hungry children and desperate mothers in spite of all our stolen money and the loans and grants coming into the country.
It’s because Turks are willing to spend whatever it takes to buy phony “scholars” who will deny the Armenian Genocide; they are using all the money they can get their hands on to bribe and blackmail anyone, anywhere, willing to sell their soul for a buck.
“Ermenia demands land from Turkey” …!!!
I demand New York from The USA. I am a dreamer .
Hamshen necat-IAN,has the US taken N.Y. from the Turks?
Orxan effendi,read the following article from TZ:
Turkey pays off debt to IMF as private borrowings surge
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-315392-turkey-pays-off-debt-to-imf-as-private-borrowings-surge.html
Since you’ve commented about economy,I presume that you understand a bit about economics.From this article,I’ll highlight few paragraphs for you to understand where your Turkey stands:
Quote
The achievement is a significant one, representing the country’s improved ability to clear foreign liabilities. Yet, in some circles, the elimination of IMF debt was promoted as the country resetting all of its external debts, a common mistake. A look at the country’s private borrowing figures will be illuminating.
Unquote
Read this paragraph again:
“Yet, in some circles, the elimination of IMF debt was promoted as the country resetting all of its external debts, a common mistake. A look at the country’s private borrowing figures will be illuminating.”
Quote
As major economies pumped out more stimulus cash to boost growth, lending rates stood at low levels. This saw more Turkish firms and banks opt to secure external loans. The Turkish private sector borrowed $10 billion more from abroad in 2012 over 2011. Banks borrowed $97.17 billion last year, while the non-financial sector’s external debts equaled $114.2 billion in the same period. This represented an approximate $8 billion increase in money Turkish banks borrowed from abroad over a year ago, with a $3 billion increase in private debt.
Some observers said Turkey, at the end of the day, is a developing economy and that its growth depends on foreign loans to a certain extent. Others argued the ballooning private debt may not be a sustainable development. Data from the central bank find Turkey’s total external debt had surged to $336 billion by the end of 2012 from $129 billion a decade ago. The share of private borrowing in total external debt was more than two-thirds at $226 billion in 2012. The latest figures reveal Turkish external debt had reached $340 billion by the end of April this year.
In 2002, Turkish gross domestic product (GDP) stood at $230 billion with the local and external debt/GDP ratio at 75 percent. This figure declined to 36 percent in 2012 when GDP was $786.3 billion. Hailing the government’s “success” in resetting IMF debts, Economy Minister Zafer Çağlayan said on Tuesday in Ankara this ratio was 85.3 percent in the eurozone. “We have a better debt to GDP ratio than 24 EU countries,” he added.
Unquote
The biggest chunk of Turkey’s overseas borrowings went into the property market which created a bubble.Now all these properties are unsold & un-rented.Eventually the low interest will start climbing back to curtail inflation.What will happen then is that this Turkish property bubble will burst & Turkish banks & the private sector will be unable to pay back their loans & interest… a hellish scenario,another sub-prime…
“has the US taken N.Y. from the Turks”
Vtiger,
You are so ignorant.
The first order of The God in Quran is : READ. So, You should read more.
1. We Turks conquered our land by war from the Eastern Roman Empire.
2. The Native Americans whose land has been stolen by Europeans claim land from the USA ?
Hamshen necat-IAN.You wrote:
“I demand New York from The USA.I am a dreamer.”
The pronoun ‘I’ that you twice use in this sentence is you,the most read non ignorant Hamshen Turk.Read what you wrote & then comment accordingly.
We in Turkey say : Tavşan dağa küsmüş, dağın haberi olmamış.
I know many of you armenians can understand Turkish Language very well. If not, ask your grand fathers/mathers.
Hamshen necat-IAN,my grandfather was killed by back stabbing Turkish neighbor & my grandmother died crying.
You better write in Hamshen Armenian & if you cannot, then ask your parents or grandparents to write it for you.
I do not like to see hateful and racist comments from both sides. These are not acceptable in this time where people are trying to solve problems without hating each other.If there is an issue just talk and write in a peaceful manner.It is a shame being a racist and hateful person.Change your attitude, please!
Anna, thanks for being a voice of reason. Yes, let’s all disagree and even be enemies. But such racist comments are truly unbecoming. E.g., I am sure Avery would cringe if he pictured to himself his American neighbors and friends reading his post here. Such unadulterated display of rancid bigotry! I am guessing he lives in America, and yet, Avery, your attitude is so 1800s Victorian racism. Fine, strive to make Turkey to do X, Y, and Z, but such ethnic hatred is so un-American. If I were an American, I would make it a law not to admit bigots like you into the country, whether they be Azeri, Armenian or whatnot. America is a melting pot, and the attitude you display is so in the face of this admirable American spirit. Turkey having committed a Genocide 100 years ago does not license you to be an avowed ethnic hater in modern America.
@Avery, you are so blind to your bigotry that, e.g., you don’t even realize how you use the term ‘Asiatic’ as an insult word. What is jaw-dropping is this … Where do you think Armenia is? Europe? It is in Asia. Another instance of proud ignorance … you keep referring to modern Turks as nomads. If you had a modicum of knowledge of current science on this (DNA studies, etc), you would know that modern Turk are a local Middle Eastern people, and have become Turkic-speaking through the elite language path of ethnogenesis (many of them former Armenians). And even if, AND IT IS A BIG IF, their ancestors 1500 years ago were nomads, what makes it right to call it accurate to call them nomads now? If anything, you personally (together with the thousands who have fled Armenia recently or Azerbaijan or Turkey) are a modern nomad. It is astonishing how you fail to see so many instances of hypocrisy in your diatribe … You call Turks losers because they immigrate to Europe, and yet … do I need to spell it out for you really? And here is another one for you. The same metrics by which you call Turkey inferior to Greece (GDP per capita, etc) can actually be used to call Armenia inferior to Turkey. Another one … you start your post against a Turk by saying how well they are treated on this forum and a mere paragraph later, well … So next time you are aflame with ethnic hatred, try to control your emotions a little as this can help avoid showing yourself to be a bigoted ignoramus. I know, I know, it is a site called Armenian Weekly, and everyone else just can go away if they don’t like it. But if I were an Armenian, I would feel still repulsed by how are representing Armenianness here. And I am sure many do silently.
@necati, the village genious, congratulations on your success for learning how to spell “armenians” properly after two years instead of your typical nomadic peasant spelling of “ermenians”. There is an old expression that says “you can’t teach an old dog new tricks” and you have proven that there may be hope for some old dogs to learn after all.
Also, congratulations on your acknowledgement of the fact that you are not indigenous to the lands you live on and that you are invaders, occupiers and thieves for taking other people’s lands and calling them your own.
Keep up with your therapy and congratulate your shrink on my behalf. I hope to see you back in your homeland in Mongolia soon.
@RVDV, you must be delirious. Spirit and commitment are admirable when pursuing a goal based on reality not illusions. The only way, and falsely, the Turks can be admitted into the European Nations is when they give up being Turkish. Your spirit and commitment dedicated to attaining an unreachable goal can best be described by the expression: Insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting different results. I hate to burst your bubble full of hot air but, IT AIN’T GONA HAPPEN ever.
R2D2 is a good Turk. He recognizes the Genocide. Let’s be kind to him.
Ararat’s post from January 27th to a Turkish poster named Tuna.
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“Turkey is like an advanced cancer that must be attacked fiercely, ferociously and from every direction until it CEASES TO EXIST. It must be ERADICATED and that day will come sooner or later, it is just a matter of time. Run for your life Tuna if I ever get to play any part in the attack.”
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1. I will not waste my time with delusional racists
2. You failed to grasp the sarcasm in my reply to Avery’s post
@RVDV, I fail to see the connection between my reply to your remark on the Turkish delusional EU accession and some remark you dug up unrelated to the topic at hand. In spite of the fact you failed to provide any context, I stand by every word I said because cancer is a vicious disease that causes death and anguish and that is what Turkey is and what it has done to our people and the way to cure cancer is to eradicate it. In fact, Turkey is worse than cancer because when you die of cancer your death certificate clearly states cancer as the cause of death, but the Turkish cancer not only caused millions of deaths in the not so distant past, today it also denigrates the deceased by fabricating the cause of its death and denying its existence.
If your attempt was to portray me as a racist then you have failed. You see, the definition of a racist is the one who believes his race is superior to all other races, has hatred of or is intolerant of other races. I never claimed my race was superior to any other race and there are many Turkic nations in the world, in Central Asia for example, which I neither hate nor am I intolerant of. However, I not only hate but despise with outmost passion the Turkic nations that despite the fact they took over our ancestral homelands and wiped them clean of any Armenian presence with their murderous acts, they are also actively trying to cover up and deny their crimes and portray the victims of their crimes as aggressors and racists.
You are barking on the wrong tree. I dont have much respect for someone who is Kurdish but proudly claims to be more Turkish that he is Kurdish. I am sure that is exactly how your Kurdish ancestors behaved during the reign of Sultan Abdulhamit II in the 1890s when they collaborated with the bloodthirsty Turks and help exterminate 300,000 Armenians in return for their properties, assets and territories. Look at them today; they themselves have become the victims of their former collaborators and Turkish brothers-in-crime.
I would like to hear back from Karim, thanks
To Mr/Ms Van if you are really from Van…Or you use the name to insult someone who is dedicated honest a granddaughter from genocide, who lost her relatives her land…If few Turks are good who have Armenian ancestries…it doesn’t mean all the same…Few it doesn’t mean all and whole.
Can you give the percentage who are with us and the percentage against us…then I’ll remove my statement…which I reached through the years…!!!”Rape-Kill-Confiscate-Deny-Hate”—(Sylva’s Statment).
If Arabs do never forget what Turks did for their literates they took their religion their language and insulted kind Arabs who saved Us…then how can we forget what they did to us…There are 2 million Armenian Turkified they can’t open their mouth …Better to live in Sauida Arabia as Muslims and say “We Are Armenian” open their Armenian schools and read the real Quran and not the “Turkified Quran”…Van do you understand…!!!or still not…
They lost their culture, their name, surname…Their music their dance…For me the mother tongue is more important than the religion…as our poet Sylva Kabudikyan said, “…even if you forget your mother don’t forget your Mother’s Tongue…”
Syva-MD-Poetry
Post by Karim: “Yes, I do hate Armenians.” // March 23, 2013 at 11:05 pm //
http://armenianweekly.com/2013/03/21/aronian-defeats-azeri-opponent-maintains-lead-in-candidates-tournament/
Karim, you have publicly professed your hatred for Armenians. Your posts reek with hatred against Armenians. You revel in the possibility of Armenia’s demise. You attempt to mock Armenian cultural achievements such as our alphabet. And you are accusing others of being hateful? A little hypocritical, isn’t it?
Regarding this concept that “Azeris are Middle Eastern because their DNA is Middle Eastern.” Your concept of “elite language path of ethnogenesis” is a sugarcoated term for the genocidal policies of your Turkic ancestors against the local natives of the region. Azeris share the DNA of the local natives not because the natives peacefully learned the Turkic language, but because your Oghuz ancestors massacred much of the native population (Armenians, Albanians, Udis etc), they enslaved countless women and children of the natives, and they subjected the rest to forced Islamization. Think of your ancestors being zombies and turning the locals into zombies. Doesn’t mean that you are one of us.
And it appears that Azeris themselves are confused about whether they are Central Asian or Middle Eastern. For example, Azeri cartoonists portray Azeris with markedly Asian facial features, as opposed to their portrayal of Armenians, as in the following Azeri cartoon about the NKR war called “Cavanşir”:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoLuzvsr4F8
The DNA stolen by your Oghuz ancestors does not mean that the Azeri ethnicity is native in Azerbaijan. If DNA determined everything, we would all be considered natives of Africa. And regarding the “Azeri ethnicity,” it is questionable whether it even exists. It appears that “Azeris” are confused about the proper name for their language. Check out this passage from the Wikipedia article on the Azerbaijani language:
“In 1992–1993, when Azerbaijan Popular Front Party was in power in Azerbaijan, the official language of Azerbaijan was renamed by the parliament as Türk dili (“Turkish”). However, since 1994 the Soviet-era name of the language, Azərbaycan dili (“Azerbaijani”), has been re-established and reflected in the Constitution. Varlıq, the most important literary Azerbaijani magazine published in Iran, uses the term Türki (“Turkish” in English or “Torki” in Persian) to refer to the Azerbaijani language. South Azerbaijani speakers in Iran often refer to the language as Türki, distinguishing it from İstambuli Türki (“Anatolian Turkish”), the official language of Turkey.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azerbaijani_language
It looks like “Azeris” cannot decide what to call their own language. When you are not sure what to name your language, that means your identity is on shaky grounds, and perhaps you don’t really have a true ethnic identity. Same with the name for your people. Just 100 years ago, you were referred to as “Tatars,” “Turks,” “Caucasian Tatars,” “Azerbaijan Tatars,” and “Azerbaijani Turks.” Eventually you settled on “Azerbaijanlilar.” When you don’t have a consistent name for your own people, that shows that you do not have an identity. Armenians have known for millennia that their name is “hay,” and their language is “hayeren.” The world has known for millennia that our people are Armenians, and that our language is Armenian. That is because we have had a national identity. Your people, on the other hand, still seem to be confused about what to call your language. Without an identity, you can’t say that you are an ethnicity, and without an ethnicity, you can’t say that you are a “Middle Eastern people.”
By the way, Azeribaijanis should thank us Armenians for retaking Karabakh. Before the Armenian-Azerbaijani conflict (going back to the March days of 1918), the local Tatars did not even think of themselves as an ethnicity or a nation. We Armenians gave you the reason to have an identity. And in case you might retort that the same is true for Armenians and the Genocide, the Genocide may have given us a cause to unite around, but it did not create our identity. Armenians have considered themselves a nation (“azg”) for millennia. In 400’s AD, historian Movses Khorenatsi wrote “we are a small nation (“azg”), but we have accomplished great things”). The so called “Azeris,” on the other hand, still appear to be a group of Turkic speaking Shia Muslims who are in search of an identity.
Karim:
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Let me first clearly explain why Anti-Armenian posters like [Orxan], [Flexxolicious] and others like them get the kind of reception from me they get.
Descendants of people who murdered approx 2 million of my civilian ancestors (1895-1923) – unarmed, defenseless old men, women, boys, girls, babies – should have a modicum of decency not to come to ArmenianWeekly and continue spewing their vile, vicious, venomous Anti-Armenian denialist hatred.
At the minimum, they should come here with contrition and remorse, instead of chortling and boasting about their (implied) Turkish superiority, e.g. Armenians are supposedly starving and Turks are supposedly doing great.
Any time they do that, and if I happen to catch their post – they will get a full dose of reality, and then some.
They want to play dirty ? Come on down.
I have an unlimited supply of dirt. And don’t mind getting down & dirty. Actually look enjoy it greatly.
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You (generic) want to have a civil conversation: I am all for it. We can discuss anything. And I have been corrected a few times by Turkish posters (e.g. RVDV), and have accepted my mistakes gladly.
But the minute you guys start denying the AG, start spreading lies about RoA, alleging Armenians are ‘starving’ and such – get ready.
The lie itself is vile. But coming from Turks who deny the AG, and who are beneficiaries of the theft and looting of Armenians’ wealth – is too much to bear and will not go unchallenged.
I do not like bringing up the tragedy of the Turkish mother committing suicide because she could not buy food for her children: she is a victim; she is not at fault. But if condescending, vile Turks open that door, I’ll drive a semi-truck through it.
btw: Karim, obviously you were too upset to pick up on the sarcasm directed at Oxram.
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Finally, I have already exceeded my quota for the number of post-words this month.
But if you ask, I will give you a detailed explanation and justification for my use of ‘nomad’, ‘savage’, etc. and will respond to other illogical, ignorant statements in your two recent posts.
Or, I can simply remind you that you lied about the Baku pogroms, and I caught you at it.
Or, I can simply remind you that you promised, several times, to leave AW, but like Anthony Weiner, are unable to – because you have a compulsion.
You cannot leave, because ArmenianWeekly’s attraction is too strong to overcome: you _have_ to come here and comment: you cannot help it.
You do not go to Azeri sites, because there is nothing like AW in your community.
You do not go to Turkish sites (TZ, HDN), because AW is heads-and-shoulders above them all.
You hate Armenians, but cannot stay away from an Armenian site called ArmenianWeekly.
Need I say more ?
Avery; before you click off for the month, will you please let me know if you have seen Gaytzag Paladjian on any posts recently? I am wondering if he is just on vacation or not well. The last posting I saw was some time ago on AW, and he was extremely agitated by some Turkish women. This is the kind of column he generally responds to.
Perouz, looks like Mr. Palandjian just did.
(you are right though: he was absent for a long time)
@ Avery, ok, you made your case. I didn’t think you could, i.e., justify your prior rant at Orxan. But I get it. I think I would not be as resentful toward denialists after 100 years, but who am I to say? I am not in your shoes. So maybe I would. One thing though is, how do you know Orxan denies the Genocide? He did not say so. Or is that you mantra with Turks: denialists unless proven otherwise?
@Vahagn, yes, I do rejoice in Armenian’s woes (in a collective sense, and not in any individual’s plight, because we all are humans), but even then only because our nations are essentially at a war. What is bad for Armenia is good for Azb, and vice versa (unless of course, some kind of a regional disaster struck both). Anyways. As to your points about identity … First though, you seem awfully knowledgeable about Azeri politics and the parlamental history on Azeri linguistics, etc … I will resist the cheap diversionary shot by calling into your question your ethnicity. But suffice it to say, you seem to know about modern Azeri political system and laws more than I do, which is strange. Anyways … No, we don’t have a problem with identity. Take the extreme case of America. According to your definitions, Americans would be paralyzed with ethnic confusion.
As for ethnogenesis, no, rapes etc did not play a role. Were there rapes, of course! So were in Armenia or anywhere else. But what the modern DNA analyses show is that the Male Mongolian Y-DNA is absent in modern Azeris, where the dominant Y-DNA is J, G, T, and other local haplogroup varieties. And you are utterly confused about the Elite Language Domination theory of ethnogenesis. In simplified way, it works like this: A handful of pioneering rulers (Mongol or Russians) are in positions of power in Country X, having been appointed from top-down. They have local minions, ministers, etc. They speak the rulers’ language for career promotion. Soon, that language becomes associated with upper-class and being part of the ruling class, which in turn encourages other “wanna-bees” to join in the elite crowd, by adopting its signs, such as its language. Something like this was already happening in Soviet Union. In places like, Kazakistan, Russian is almost like the native language now. Would future anti-Kazaks call them Russian-nomads? Again, you guys interpret facts your way, and that is fine, we all do it. But don’t get surprised when someone catches you in so doing.
Why did Armenia not evolve and adapt/adopt? Don’t rush to celebrate that too much. One possible explanation was that you were religious fanatics. Try converting Taliban into anything they are not. Maybe you were the Talibans of 10th century. Or, maybe people did not really care enough about your specific locale to bother converting you. Azeri predecessors have lied on important strategic path. E.g., to come down from Volga or Caspian Sea, you have to come thru Baku. Who on the other hand cared about Yerevan, somewhere out there nowhere. “Leave them there, worshiping whatever.” It is all speculation of course. But still possible. Once again … and this is a simplified analogy … Crocodiles have stayed the selfsame for much longer than monkeys/humans, and no one would rush to call the latter to be suffering from an identity crisis, right?
Karim.
.
{“One thing though is, how do you know Orxan denies the Genocide? He did not say so. Or is that you mantra with Turks: denialists unless proven otherwise?”}.
.
After reading many hundreds of posts from denialist Turkish posters and non-denialist Turkish posters @AW, and at other Armenian sites, and at Turkish sites – I can tell.
Part art, part science.
There are certain code words and phrases Denialists use (both Turkish and non-Turkish denialists).
Certain way they write about Armenia and Armenians.
They cannot help themselves; they cannot hide their true feelings.
Unmistakably different from reasonable, contrite Turkish guests who want to have a meaningful discussion with Armenians, even about painful (for them) subjects such as reparations, return of (some) lands, etc.
Karim, of course your people feel that they don’t have an identity crisis now. By liberating Karabakh, we gave your people reason to have an identity. Take away that reason, however, and the “Azeri” identity is on shaky grounds. What other ethnic group debates as to the choice of name for its language? Or changes its self-name from time to time and from region to region. The Americans are not a relevant example. The basis of the American identity is not an ethnicity but an idea, centered around our Constitution and our Declaration of Independence. We Americans know that the American nation consists of multiple ethnicities, shared by allegiance to our constitution.
Take for example the Iranian Turkic-speakers. Are they part of the same ethnicity as the Azeris north of Arax? They surely don’t act that way. The Supreme Leader of Iran is Azeri. Is Iran being very friendly with Azerbaijan? Quite the opposite. Many Iranian Azeris cross the border to trade with Armenians and relieve the effects of the blockade. Can we talk about a single Azeri identity that includes them and you? Hardly.
I know about Azeri politics and Armenian matters because I am a knowledgeable dude. And I know things about Armenia that I hoped you would know too. For example, Armenia did lie on important international routes throughout its history. Hell, it lay on the Silk road. Historians have traditionally called Armenia a perpetual theatre of war precisely due to its key geographical position. So, the reason Armenians survived is not because Armenia was not important, but because our strong identity.
Nor were Armenians religious fanatics. In fact, they were known for their tolerance: science and scholarship thrived in medieval Armenia, and we did not burn our scientist as they did in Europe. What you call “religious fanaticism” was actually our strong national identity. The strength of Armenian identity has been observed by non-Armenians, and it has been the key to our survival.
Your description of the elite language replacement ethnogenesis, as applied to the Azerbaijanis, creates the impression as if you were there while it happened, with officials being peacefully chosen, and people making career choices. The massacres, kidnappings, and forced conversions by the Turkic invaders have been well documented, including by Islamic sources, and they more than explain the presence of natives’ genes among Azeris. As to the supposed absence of Mongolian genes among the Azeris, given the very recent nature of the genetic studies mentioned by you, their reliability is surely limited.
karim , i think your response is required, thanks lol
I SHALL COMMENT ON ISSUE ,ABOVE MENTIONED,I.E. ARMENIAN CLAIM(S)from grdeat turkey,in my own way viewpoint and conception.
Firstly my email address is no more as above, it is now gayzag.palandjian@yahoo.com.It was hijacked and the jacker,after my effrots to restore it said “I am in Nairobi,and asked for money$190,. then reduced to $70.I did not comply…
Now then ,I have for your info written to Harut Sassounian and a few others and Armenian newspapers that our INITIAL AND MAIN DEMAND FOR JUSTICE OUGHT TO BE BASED on,B L O O D M O N E Y .It has precedent the Jewish one and smaller ones, the NY Life and AXA, that respected death of Armenian , not be naturxal causes but Slaughter/killings, indeed mass ones at that and paid up!!!!!
Thence, we must ,*our Int’l attorneys ,should set forth that in the ICJ or Euro Cpourt. Land,,,,,,I argued is there…..not disappeared.But iot is mainly occupied by K U R D S and less son by Laz, Cherkez and Hemshen ,islamized*by force9 Armenians,Stays there. We ,our politico and Attornyes should contact the Kurdish Parliament or Go.v in exile*Brussels,Belgium and or elsewhere and begin negotiating w/them. Latter the k u r d s *previously dubbed as mountain kurds by great Turkey,are extending wwell intentioned hand towards us.mark the opening of the st. Kirakos Huge chiurch in Diarbakira*Tigranakeert, for us9 an d the mayor of smae invited Armenians to go live there…this was unheard of before.
now then first great Turkey jailed him, then let him loose,thse are their way of YAVASH YAVASH.Don’t be;lieve*me( they can be too tough towards us in light of what has occurred and is right now happening in neighbouring Syria.They tried to intervene there…could nOT.The have their own problems , so how can they THROW THEIR WEIGHT AROUND AS THEY WISH IN LIGHJT OF THE BIG BOSSES ON VIGIL…
mY VIEWPOINT IS TO go for blood money, which is true and can be done,
great Turkey may say we don’t have any cash in our treasury…O.K. then I have the remedy.THEY RECEIVE ,USED TO WHEN IT FIRST STARTED ,the BTJ Baki-Tiflis jehan pipeline Transit duties One billion six hundred thousand dollars per annnum.Half outhg ttob e set aside to pay Armenians for blood money!!!!This can be arranged through FM of the countries whose Oil giants did that INJUSTICE TO ARMENIA BYPASSING IT.why, one should ask them,because we did not fight alongside the allies in First a nd Second WW.or what are we ugly and Tukrey is pretty or what____
Vahagn, I like how you dismiss science so glibly: “As to the supposed absence of Mongolian genes among the Azeris, given the very recent nature of the genetic studies mentioned by you, their reliability is surely limited.” This clearly shows that you are not a knowledgeable dude at all, especially regarding the very pillar upon which your claims about Azeris being newcomers or not having an identity rests. You clearly know nothing of the DNA tests looking for genetic markers. Haplogroup C3 is the common Mongolian Y-DNA, which passes exclusively from father to son. They check for genetic markers, where the findings are binary: yes, or no. And among all the studies conducted by international journals and scientists, 0% of Azeri males have this marker. So therewith goes out into trash your claims that Mongolians are the male ancestors of Azeris. As for female ancestry, that is tracked by the mitochondria markers, and Azeris have nothing from Mongolians there either (not that the female invaders would have been unwelcome). Or, wait a second … are you actually questioning the idea of using test samples in science in general? Well, well, according to you then, all medical science is just garbage, which is not a good way of representing your science-loving nation.
As for ethnic identity, again, you talk of in self-serving terms. The criterion of being called the same name for a longer time-period suits you, and you take that to be the paramount most important factor. A German, for example, would scoff at you when extrapolating your logic to Germans vis-à-vis Armenians, which you’d take to have a stronger identity or a more authentic one than Germans do.
I don’t know what it is … Are you perhaps trying too hard to prove to your friends here that you are a real Armenian. But what make you assume that being illogical is the right way to do this?
Karim, noone said here that Azeris are of Mongolian descent. So there goes to trash most of your post. Azeris are descendants of the Oghuz Turkic invaders. Comparing your favorite DNA studies to the medical science in general is illogical. Established conclusions of medical science have been around for much longer than these recent and divergent DNA studies on the Azerbaijani people, and therefore the reliability of medical science is not questioned. Since your favorite DNA studies are recent, diverse, and not universally accepted, they are presumed to be unreliable.
The fact that self-name is a critical aspect of an identity is well known and presumed. That is why identity theft often involves theft and use of another’s name. Do I really have to explain this to you, or you are just trying to be illogical?
I don’t know what it is. Are you trying too hard to portray me as a non-Armenian, because you know that if my ideas are followed, nothing much will be left of Azerbaijan?
Vahagn,
Joseph Goebbels, Nazis propaganda minister used to tell same DNA garbage, for his listeners..in today’s Axerbaijan very same scenario happening by order of Nazi Sultan Aliev, who openly called Armenians of the world as his number one enemy. His anti-Armenian propaganda speech is a daily life bread, for his faithful followers and ministers.
people like Karim Khan, have no other hobbies, but to follow his Sultan’s order, otherwise they will be out of pocket money and will be punished by Sultan’s secret service agents, harshly.
These propagandists like our Karim Agha have one thing in common; to hate Armenians where ever they go. They have been trained and guided by some paid professionals, who support Sultan’s and his family corruption habits, inside and outside of Axerbaijan, in order to prevent people uprising against this faithful oil Sultan.
I wonder, what is Karim’s duty in AW, and who is writing his colorful essay for us. I personally believe, that Karim, deserved to be in Baku’s DNA department, and lecturing for his demoralized Axeri Sultan, and his faithful audience, where the fuel of this fully loaded brainwashing machine, connected directly to Caspian Shah Deniz oil field.
Armenians will not be alone in re-claiming their lands. The Assyrians, the Greeks, the Bulgarians and Kurds all wait for the right moment. It must be very stressful to be a Turk leaving on stolen lands wandering when the rightful owners will show up. he he
You are so interesting! I don’t suppose I have read through something like that before.
So wonderful to find someone with a few original thoughts on this subject.
Seriously.. thank you for starting this up. This site is
one thing that is needed on the web, someone with a little originality!