Newroz in Diyarbakir: Ocalan Calls on PKK Fighters to Leave Turkey

DIYARBAKIR, Turkey (A.W.)—In a five-page statement read in Kurdish and Turkish to hundreds of thousands of Kurds gathered in Diyarbakir to celebrate Newroz on March 21, imprisoned Kurdish guerrilla leader Abdullah Ocalan asked PKK fighters to leave Turkey, saying it’s time to silence guns and let ideas speak. The statement came after weeks of negotiations between the Turkish government, Ocalan, and the pro-Kurdish Peace and Democracy party (BDP).

“On the occasion of this Newroz, I invite the Armenians, the Turkmens, the Assyrians, the Arabs, and other peoples, at least as much as I invite the Kurds, to see and experience the lights of freedom and equality emanating from the fire that has been lit, as their very own lights of equality and freedom,” Ocalan said in his message. He also called for unity between Turks and Kurds, who, he said, fought together during World War I.

Below are photos of the historic gathering taken by the Armenian Weekly’s Diyarbakir correspondent, Gulisor Akkum.

Nowruz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Newroz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Nowruz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Newroz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Nowruz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Newroz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Nowruz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Newroz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Nowruz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Newroz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Nowruz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Newroz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Nowruz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)
Newroz in Diyarbakir on March 21. (Photo by Gulisor Akkum, The Armenian Weekly)

 

Gulisor Akkum

Gulisor Akkum

Gulisor Akkum is a journalist based in Diyarbakir. She received her sociology degree in 2003 from Dicle University. She has written articles for the Armenian Weekly since 2009, and is the Weekly's correspondent in Diyarbakir since October 2012.

65 Comments

  1. The international community should demand the release of this unjustly imprisoned leader. The PKK is a legitimate liberation organization. The PKK sole duty is to fight for justice and equality for Kurds, Assyrians, Armenians and others.
    The PKK has been labeled a terrorist organization on the contrary, the current Turkish government should have such a title attached.

    • tell this to the 1000s innocent Kurd civilians murdered by the fascist Turkish state.
      tell this to the 34 innocent victims of Uludere massacre, perpetrated by the terrorist fascist Turkish state.

    • Tokado, the Turkish governments policies of denying that over fifteen million of its citizens exist is to blame for any civilian deaths. This is a conflict that the Turkish governments started not the PKK.

    • Raymond, I don’t share the same view. The one who pulls the trigger is guilty whatever the background reason. Turkish state is not an angel at all, but their oppression is not an excuse for killing innocents.

      Catalans are good examples of searching for independence without violence. They are using their economical strength and unity for their freedom fight, not bullets.

      Avery, I am surprised that you used “Turkish state” instead of “Turks”…

    • We are surprised that Tokado, the Turk man who denies the Armenian Genocide, shows so much concern for civilians murdered by PKK – what is the number: 10,000 ? 20,000 ? what ? – but shows no concern for innocent Kurds murdered by the genocidal fascist Turkish State: 10,000 ? 30,000 ? 50,000 ?

      We are surprised denialist Tokado shows no concern for 2 million murdered Armenian civilians (1895-1923), including children, and babies – born and unborn.

      Well, I take it back: we are not surprised: Turk denialists show no concern, much less regret or remorse for any murdered Armenian civilians.

    • Tokado, I would agree with you that killing innocent people is murder regardless of who commits it. There are groups, however, that are pushed to extremism due to external pressures.
      The case for the Catalans is certainly pushing the limits of reality. On the one hand you have one group (Catalans) that are allowed to practice their language and have a certain limit of self-rule. on the other hand you have another group (Kurds and Assyrians) that are denied the very fact that they exist, And speaking their language was decreed illegal. Now, which group do you think will be pushed to extremism.

    • Raymond, people can be pushed. But it’s their choice to go to extremism. And as you would agree violence is never a solution, but only creates more problems. IRA stopped fighting with weapons, so did ETA. I cannot accept somebody killing innocents no matter how far he/she is pushed.

      Avery, as always you say completely irrelevant things, and do not contribute anything to the topic.

  2. the pictures are amazing.
    Looks like 100s of thousands of Kurds.

    Different Kurdish flags everywhere, pictures of Ocalan, and I cannot see a single flag of the Turkish occupation forces anywhere.

    This looks like the makings of an Independent Kurdistan and the splitting of the State of Turkey into at least two.

  3. I think that the man’s brains might be scrambled after so many years in jail.
    I would not doubt if the Turks have drugged, threatened, and fooled him. The man clearly wants to get out of jail so he might be willing to play ball.

    Is the PKK going to listen to him? I have my doubts. Laying down their arms in return for worthless Turkish promises? Are you kidding me?
    I hope the PKK realizes how foolish that would be.

    I would not trust one thing that either Ocalan or Turkey says.

    I also do not wish to see Western Armenia grabbed by Kurds, whose real homeland is very far to the south.

  4. The pictures, the flags and the masses of Kurdish people is a wonderful sight but I’m not optimistic about a quick or easy solution and creation of a separate Kurdish state. My lack of optimism is based on the Turkish state’s militarist-terrorist nature, let alone the Deep State which is still very much active in the background.

    We Armenians have been in that position around the 1908 Constitutional Revolution (in the Ottoman Empire) when our leadership, instead of maintaining and organising the national mass armed struggle, agreed to be disarmed/give up the armed struggle only for our people to be wiped out by the genocidal Turkish state.

    Actually the Kurds and Ocalan have been there several times over the past 15 years declaring their, in practice, unilateral ‘ceasefire’ after ‘ceasefire’ only for the terrorist Turkish state and military to prepare bigger and bigger occupations and aggressions against the PKK and the broad Kurdish population – Thanks God just short of genocide so far at the scale of 1915.

    I really fail to see what is different now unless one takes the regional and international situation into account and assumes that Turkey has finally come to its senses and wants to avoid a total disintegration ala Syria or Iraq.

    The Kurdish people and its leadership must be vigilant and never trust the terrorist Turksih state.

    • I think the same like you…all fabricated…
      Turks are scared from brave Kurds…
      They cannot fight them any more …
      Kurds are almost 20 million…
      Allawies 15 million
      2 million hidden Armenians
      What left …?
      They killed enough 50,000 Kurds at least…

  5. What occupation forces…this is PEACE written by the high echelpon of great Turkey.Kurds*at long last, before used to be called “mountain Turks”,are now called as such and indeed “”light of equality and freedom… is shining brightly,especially – reminding or prompting by …we fought together during WWI.
    Babam we are allies, we shall be granted new name , Turkkurdoghlu from now now.
    And also will not murder rape., confiscate other people’s properties!!!!!
    Armeniasn Assyrians arabs. Hell there are none here any more….

  6. Only God knows how much torture, brainwashing and coercion Ocalan has endured by his Turkish captives. The “lights of equality and freedom” that he makes reference to can only be experienced once the Turkish government learns to make its peace with truth and justice.

    In a country where truth is suppressed and justice denied there is neither equality nor freedom. This PR stunt stinks of the usual feel good dolma diplomacy ankara loves to publicize in order to showcase its innocence. Naive and concession hungry defeatists beware…ankara’s target is you!

  7. It’s so sad that the whole is keeping a blind eye on Kurdish issue in the middle east. We all have seen how turkish government has gone above and beyond for the Palestinian people, while millions of Kurds are being undermined and assimilated on daily basis in Turkey. Turkey, known as ”the state of genocides” has never been on the side of solving problems to any minorities that have been living on the same land for thousands of years, the indigenous of the very same land. But, has rather prosecuted them and had done anything it took to wipe them off of the face of earth. Had it not been for the resistance of Kurdish freedom fighters, the peace talks and negotiations with serok Apo would not be possible today in Newroz. Kurds have given up on their rights for sake of Kurdish-Turkish brotherhood, and equality of all. But, Turkish state has never hesitated to take advantages of those Kurdish initiatives and further strengthen their military operations, mass murder and unlawful imprisonment of hundreds of thousands of Kurdish activists under the name of fabricated labels which are based on Turkish false statements and media propaganda. But, Kurds are still eager to seek better opportunities for both sides to end this long-term violence, and that’s why serok Apo is making such declarations to call for peace, even though, there is absolutely NOTHING concrete or in a written form, from the turkish state that promises or guarantees any rights for Kurdish people,and other minorities such as our Armenian brothers and sisters, Cerkez, Arabs and Turkemans. We are hoping that Mr.Ocalan’s declaration would be a new America’s day of proclamation of emancipation in Turkey for those oppressed nations that are willing and looking forward to opening new pages of new era in the region. May God Bless Us All.

  8. “called for unity between Turks and Kurds, who, he said, fought together during World War I”…

    Against whom Mr Ocalan? Helpless Armenian civilians? Oh yeah that’s right… the combined Turkish-Kurdish warriors scored big against those evil Armenian women, children and elderly armed with cribs and canes, and effectively took their possessions and lands with a decisive victory.

    Bad form Mr Ocalan… and if you actually believe that Turkey can be trusted, merely one year after the truth is out with what they did to Syria, not to mention its not so secret murderous history, then you are truly a pathetic shadow of your former self.

    • That’s right don’t forget the murderous union of the Turks and the Kurds under the banner of Pan-Turkism and the formation of the Hamidieh cavalry during the reign of Sultan Abdulhamit II in the 1890s that led to the murder and massacre of 300,000 Armenians. The Turks and the Kurds used to be partners in crime. Be cautious and don’t be so gullible.

  9. Newroz is merely a Kurdish new year, and our national celebration. Kurdish people shall and will NOT display the occupying turkish terrorist and the fascist state-flag during our national festival. This is a Kurdish festival and there is no room whatsoever for that bloody Turkish flag to be waiving and flying in the face of the families of martyrs!!!!

  10. Avery, you call Turks the occupiers. Are you saying the Western Turkey is a true Kurdish land. I thought it was Armenian? Or do you hate Turks so much that you embrace their enemies so blindly that you don’t even see what that embrace means to you youself?

    By the way, with your logic, US is an occiupying force on the American land. So is Hungary, Germany, Russia, China, and almost any other major nation on the face of Earth. Turks have had Turkey for over 1000 years! It has been theirs. Not Armenian, not Kurdish, not Bulgarian. The Armenian who had it before then, had taken it from those who had liever there before them, and so forth. No patch of land has an ingrained word saying I am Armenian or Turkish by physicial composition or nature … instead, the land belogs, and has always belonged, to those who rule it. This a simple historical truth. Living on a land does not mean owning it. E.g., there are a lot of birds living in a tree on our yard. It does not mean they own the land.

    • Not so fast Kerim. You compare your said nations to Turkey, please don’t insult the civilized world this way… name me one people who today live in four corners of the Earth as a result of the policies of Hungary, Germany, Russia, China and all else you care to mention which those countries took the lands of.

      The part about the USA “committing genocide” or “occupying” is another genocide denialist rhetoric, entertained only by the uneducated, straight out of the Turkish Genocide Playbook. Firstly, the New World was not a country, it was comprised of native tribes, who themselves came from Asia. And the Europeans who got here did not say “hey let’s wipe out all the Indians in a carefully orchestrated plan”, nor are American Indians today living outside the USA demanding justice.

      And you say “Turks have had Turkey for over 1000 years!” – NO.

      Turks have had Turkey since 1923 – based on Genocidal acts. The Ottoman Empire was an empire composed of many ethnicities, and especially NOT “Turks”. “Turk” is a modern term as is “Azerbaijani”. “Turk” was the former Turkmen. Ottomans, yes. Turks, no. And Osmans, Armenians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Arabs, Kurds, etc were all part of the empire. In fact, a strong case can be made where the Ottoman Empire would not exist if not for Armenians, at least if it did, it would have crumbled in less than 100 years.

      “The Armenian who had it before then, had taken it from those who had lived there before them” – again FALSE.

      The pseudo-historian-prostitutes of the world employed by the vile Turkish government today are diligently working to “prove” Armenians “came from outside” as did Turks. Had the Urartians, Hittites, Mitanni, etc today been a distinct people from the Armenians and in exile from Anatolia, that argument may have held some water… but those people today are alive, and collectively known as Armenians.

      “the land belongs, and has always belonged, to those who rule it”

      That may be true under normal circumstances. But in the case of a government which literally invented the act of genocide, and especially one which got to Anatolia from Asia uninvited, such a luxury does not, and must not apply.

    • Kerim, with all due respect, property laws (at least here in the US) apply differently to birds and humans.

    • There we have it folks, from Armenian Weekly’s own history professor Hagop D: The term “Turk” was established in 1923. We therefore can establish that the Ottomans were not Turks. The Seljuks of Rum were not Turks. The Great Seljuks were not Turks. A large portion of the Mamluks were not Turkish. Perhaps our all knowing history professor would take a look here: http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/plaintexthistories.asp?historyid=aa98
      and care to explain how the term Turk, which was, as our all knowing history professor states, made up in 1923, was used so very long ago in the Gokturk (Celestial Turk) Empire.

      “In fact, a strong case can be made where the Ottoman Empire would not exist if not for Armenians, at least if it did, it would have crumbled in less than 100 years.”

      Ok. Let’s hear your case then.

    • RVDV, you are obviously confused between the differences of a people and their changing nationalities. Where in my post did I say *TURKIC PEOPLES* did not exist? I said the NATIONALITY of Turk was established in 1923 with invention of a country called Turkey, in response to “Turks have had Turkey for over 1000 years”. – no they haven’t. Turkey has existed since 1923, making it a 90 year old country. Interestingly, Armenia became a country before Turkey did.

      Now if we are talking about the “Ottoman Empire” which Turkey is a successor state to, it is a different matter, because the Ottoman empire consisted of many peoples and countries. In the Ottoman empire, they did not call Western Armenia the six “Turkish Vilayets” – they called it the “Armenian Vilayets” despite having it in the Ottoman territory. Is Africa, the Middle East and Europe and England today part of Italy because they were at one time conquered by the Roman Empire?

      If you look at Ottoman writing and maps, nowhere do they describe their territories “Turkey”. These were terms used by Europeans and their own maps. In the Ottoman empire you were simply a Muslim, and an Osmanli. Nationality of the assimilated Turkic people of the region was not particularly something everyone identified with. (Also In the USA everyone is an American, but they all speak English. None would identify their nationality as the language they speak).

      I actually took the time here to find the passage from the book by Richard Davey “The Sultan and His Subjects”, published 1897:

      “To begin with, it should be remarked that the surest way to insult an Ottoman gentleman is to call him a “Turk”. His face will straightway wear the expression a Londoner’s assumes, when he hears himself frankly styled a Cockney. He is no Turk, no savage, he will assure you, but an Ottoman subject of the Sultan, by no means to be confounded with certain barbarians styled Turcomans, and from whom indeed, on the male side, he may possibly be descended. As a matter of fact, the Turk’s ancestry, in the female line at least, is very mixed indeed. His mother may have been an Armenian, his grandmother a Circassian or a Georgian, and his great-grandmother a Greek. He himself, although he be a Pasha, or even a Grand Vizir, may not have a Single drop of true Ottoman blood in his veins. His nationality is not Turkish, nor even Ottoman — it is Islämic… He has no country.”

      And as you might also notice, the author, despite his history lesson, continues to call the people in question “Turks” – not surprisingly a nationality the former British agent “Father of the Turks” forced on the masses of the newly formed republic. To be fair here, I would probably agree that those who distanced themselves from being “Turks” were part of the upper classes. Still, this passage is very telling about the modern, false, fairy-tale ridden “history” taught by the Turkish Government. Taner Akcam was definitely correct when he said, when the Turkish alphabet was Romanized, the genocidal state of the new Turkey took advantage of that opportunity to cleanse itself of its genocidal past and re-wrote “Turkish history” in its entirety.

      The lunacy of this new Nazi-like state was so bizarre actually, that the new Young Turk government under Ataturk actually started measuring skulls to prove how great deceased “Turks” were of “pure blood” – and proceeded as their first specimen to measure the skull of Sinan – an Armenian.

      Need I say more?

    • RVDV,

      I’m reading Hagop D’s comment above and find no such thing that you chose to misrepresent and ridicule as “the term ‘Turk’ was established in 1923”. The poster clearly said: “Turks have had Turkey since 1923”. Have they not? Before Turkey there was Ottoman Empire. Was there not?

      No need to twist words. Other people have eyes, too, you know?

    • John:
      Yes, before Turkey there was the Ottoman empire. Ottoman were who exactly? Greeks? Assyrians? Armenians? Or Turks? Not Turkic. Turks. Before the spread of nationalism to the Ottoman Empire- which lead to Armenian genocide, and countless other minority massacres- the Ottoman elite referred to themselves as Ottomans. During the nationalist era, they adopted the term Turk to refer to themselves and the modern notion of a “Turk” was born.

      Let me give an example of a country, who’s history I have studied very recently. Germany. Until 1871 Germany was not a unified nation. People did not refer to themselves as “Germans”, and even during the Kaiserreich the process was gradual. However, do we refer to the Prussians today as “Germanic”? How about the Bavaria? Do we refer to Bavaria pre-1871 as a “Germanic” land? How about Saxony? NO- we call these German states, provinces, etc. inhabited by GerMANs. Not Germanic peoples. Germans. Yet, before 1871, these people (for the most part) would never have called themselves “Germans”. Partly because the notion of German didn’t really exist, and partly because regionalism dominated nationalism until the 19th century.

      So what am I getting at? Ottomans- especially the elite- didn’t call themselves Turks. The Great Seljuks and the Seljuks of Rum most likely didn’t call themselves “Turks”, nor probably did the rest of the historical Turkish states. Not because they weren’t what we now call Turks, but because the notion of an encompassing identity such as “Turk” did not exist. But now it does. We now call Ottomans- Ottoman Turks. We call the Seljuks- Seljuk Turks. We call the Oghuz- Oghuz Turks. Not Turkics.

      So… Hagop, you are correct that Turks have ruled Turkey since 1923. It is clearly impossible to rule a country that has been around for 90 years for 1 thousand years. But Turks- not Turkics- Ottoman/Oghuz, Seljuk Turks have ruled over the lands now known as Turkey (more or less, main exception Constantinople obviously) for about a thousand years. Starting with the Sultanate of Rum in 1077, through the Ottoman Empire, and now modern Turkey- what we, in the nationalist world of today, would call “Turks”, have ruled the lands (more or less) now known as Turkey. It’s a retroactive application of the modern notion of an ethnic group.

      And in this instance, when a Turk says everyone else does this too, its true. Everyone does this. Armenians did it too, though it was a little different of course.

      “The suggestion that the Armenians had also been newcomers to the region, might rise, within the logic of ethnic nationalism. The correct possibility that against the Armenian claims to the territory (people living in the region) were “morally equal”. Identification with the distant glories of Urartu and its prehistoric forerunners can be used to reassert Armenian “indigeneity” and “compensate for modern miseries”, and together with Mount Ararat has come to be a powerful symbol of Armenian ethnicity especially among the second generation diaspora.”

      I know next to nil about the the Kingdom of Urartu, but I highly doubt it’s inhabitants referred to themselves and thought of themselves as Armenians. But in the world of nationalism, this is an Armenian kingdom inhabited by Armenian people.

    • {““The suggestion that the Armenians had also been newcomers to the region, might rise, within the logic of ethnic nationalism….”}

      RVDV:

      where is that quotation from; who is the author.

    • RVDV,

      Undeniably, the Ottomans were an anthology of various peoples—autochthonous, who were forcibly colonized in an empire after the invasion of Asia Minor by Turkic nomadic warriors, and alien, who intruded the region from Altai Mountains and the steppes of Central Asia. It can be said that from the 16th century onward Ottomans were various Turkic groups, the Byzantine and Pontic Greeks, the Assyrians, the Kurds, the Armenians, the Jews, the Circassians, and others.

      As far as I know, ethnographers group Turkic people into several branches, the Oghuz Turks being one of them. Note: one of the Turkic people, not exactly Turks. Same with the Seljuks who originated from a branch of Oghuz Turks, a Turkic people, who lived north of the Caspian and Aral seas in a confederacy located in the Kazakh steppes. Regardless how you call Seljuks or the Oghuz, the scientific truth remains that those groups were Turkic people, not Turks per se. Retroactive application of the modern notion of an ethnic group is not a scientific category, but rather a nationalistic and thus false scientific concept.

      Because an artificial encompassing identity such as “Turk” now exists in Turkey, it doesn’t mean it can substitute for ethnographic, historical, and demographic realities that existed before the creation of the Republic of Turkey in 1923. Hope you’d agree. I also hope you’re not suggesting that the same “encompassing identity” should shamelessly undermine the indigenousness of the Kurds by spreading fairy tales about Kurds being “mountain Turks”, are you?

      Lastly, the inhabitants of the Kingdom of Urartu hardly referred to themselves and thought of themselves as Armenians. But in the world of science, not the world of nationalism, the Kingdom of Urartu is called a proto-Armenian confederation of states by most non-Armenian historians and ethnographers. It demonstrates the evolution of the Armenian nation as an indigenous, sedentary people inhabiting a region in Eastern Asia Minor and southern Caucasusstarting from Urartians in the 5th millenium B.C. and Armenians from the 3rd millennium B.C. into the 21st century A.D. The only major interruption of their lengthy historical presence in their habitat was the genocide of Armenians by the Ottoman Turks in 1915-1923.

    • Interesting fact, RVDV. I remember my grandmother, a victim of the Turkish barbarity in 1915 (my maternal ancestors were from Sasun) telling me she had witnessed her Armenian neighborhood children’s arms chopped off and eyes gauged by the Turks. Strikingly, she never used the words “Turk” or “Turkish” when she described the horrors. She would say: ”Osmanci askyarnere” or “Osmanci jojere” (Ottoman soldiers, Ottoman chiefs). Never “Turk”. Mind you, these were the ethnonyms that a contemporary had used. Make your own judgment.

    • “Because an artificial encompassing identity such as “Turk” now exists in Turkey, it doesn’t mean it can substitute for ethnographic, historical, and demographic realities that existed before the creation of the Republic of Turkey in 1923.”

      Perhaps it shouldn’t. But it does. And it’s widely accepted as legitimate, not artificial.

      “Retroactive application of the modern notion of an ethnic group is not a scientific category, but rather a nationalistic and thus false scientific concept.”

      I agree scientifically it is a false concept. And I will accept your point if you agree with my next statement. Since the notion of “German” and “Germaness” took hold really only after the German unification in 1871, we cannot refer to the regions of Bavaria, Saxony, Prussia/Brandenburg pre-1871 as German. These people didn’t think of themselves as German, therefore the retroactive application of the modern notion of “German” cannot apply to them. I hope you’d agree with this, because this is essentially what you are saying about Turks.

      ” Kingdom of Urartu is called a proto-Armenian confederation…”

      It is. True. Can I therefore call the Oghuz proto-Turks then? They may not have been nor identified as Turks, but modern Turks trace their lineage through mostly the Oghuz.

      Finally…” …Armenians from the 3rd millennium B.C. into the 21st century A.D. ”

      I understand Armenians, as well as Greeks, and some other groups have a very long, traceable history. Do you really believe Armenians today are in any way (culturally, linguistically, religiously) to the Armenians of the 3rd millennium BCE? What about DNA? Armenians have been ruled by Persians, Mongols, Turks, etc. for long stretches over the last thousand years. Perhaps genetically the Armenians of 2013 CE are not all that similar to the Armenians of 3 thousand BCE. To me, this is clearly a false, Armenian nationalist notion. But it’s accepted as true. And I accept it as well.

    • Avery:

      No one is denying that Turks, Turkmens, Azeris, etc. are all Turkic peoples. I agree that the notion of a “Turk” is a late-19th century, nationalistic idea. But this is true for most nations today. See my German argument.
      What if I went around telling Serbs that they aren’t really Serbs or Croats that they aren’t really Croats but “Slavics.” They’d look at me like I was an idiot, which would be justified cause I’d be saying a something utterly illogical.

    • John: Look back to one of my previous posts where I asked what is an Ottoman? An Ottoman is a Turk, no? What’s the difference? It wasn’t some Turkic tribal members that attempted to wipe out your people was it?

  11. Don’t know why you all are excited at the prospect of an independent Kurdistan in eastern Turkey. You all seem aware of what Kurds have suffered under the modern Turkish state. It’s not like they’ll give Armenians any land should they ever get said land in eastern Turkey. Nevruz is the Kurdish new year. An Iranian holiday. Turkish flags are never displayed, and Ocalan flags and pictures appear in almost every BDP rally, let alone these celebrations. Kurds should primarily focus on attaining independence in Northern Iraq and its oil rich lands, and perhaps a part of Northern Syria when all is said and done there. Turkey is still too strong to be divided at this point.

    • To rvdv
      If not now,great Turkey will have to undergo changes space-wise.We are not happy as you wish to point out that Kurds are CONGREGATING,-shall we say-BUT INDEED THIS IS just one small step FWD. Armenians meanwhile can concentrate FOR DEMANDING BLOOD MONEY….
      Land is there,it won´t go away.Some kind minded armenians think that wise…
      but the other factor is the MAIN ONE, that will pursued…mind my word.
      RIGHT NOW in Yerevan a conference is convend to decide How to commemorate the 100th Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.
      Hope they also consider PRIORITIES…as above.
      Otherwise I am asking herewith to Mr. Khchik Mouradian to do so,if he is there at the conference. Dadrian, Richard Hovhannessian ,Sarafian etc.,are there,what to remind us of their (indeed)important work as to Historyography?
      We thank them ,but we need action!!!!
      think of preparing the File to be lodged at the Int´l important courts of justice, the U.N. etc.,
      We actually need a few international Attorneys to join them at that conf. instead of only book writers8we thank them) .
      WE need action period!!!!!
      Wake up ARF.Tell your friends (ungers) in Yerevan to pursue BLOOD MONEY
      like the Jews.We have the important precedents…

    • To rvdv
      If not now,great Turkey will have to undergo changes space-wise.We are not happy as you wish to point out that Kurds are CONGREGATING,-shall we say-BUT INDEED THIS IS just one small step FWD. Armenians meanwhile can concentrate FOR DEMANDING BLOOD MONEY….
      Land is there,it won´t go away.Some kind minded armenians think that wise…
      but the other factor is the MAIN ONE, that will pursued…mind my word.
      RIGHT NOW in Yerevan a conference is convend to decide How to commemorate the 100th Anniversary of the Armenian Genocide.
      Hope they also consider PRIORITIES…as above.
      Otherwise I am asking herewith to Mr. Khchik Mouradian to do so,if he is there at the conference. Dadrian, Richard Hovhannessian ,Sarafian etc.,are there,what to remind us of their (indeed)important work as to Historyography?
      We thank them ,but we need action!!!!
      think of preparing the File to be lodged at the Int´l important courts of justice, the U.N. etc.,
      We actually need a few international Attorneys to join them at that conf. instead of only book writers8we thank them) .
      WE need action period!!!!!
      Wake up ARF.Tell your friends (ungers) in Yerevan to pursue BLOOD MONEY
      like the Jews.We have the important precedents…
      Also RVDV,ERad what the Kurd above called Kevinar, writes….

    • [Why are you all excited at the prospect of an independent Kurdistan in eastern Turkey? It’s not like Kurds will give Armenians any land should they ever get said land in eastern Turkey.]

      Although Kurds had complicity in murdering the Armenians in 1915, they also had the courage–in contrast to the Turks–to apologize to us. For me, it is easier to have Kurds as negotiators of possible land restitution issues than unrepentant, unremourseful, and utterly arrogant Turks.

    • RVDV,’ It’s not like they’ll give Armenians any land should they ever get said land in eastern Turkey’…
      Will we ever rise to the civilized standard of Czechs & Slovaks,negotiate,compromise,agree & close a bloody chapter?
      Can’t the above be applied or we need to always remain barbarians?
      We’ll be neighbors forever…

  12. I believe Avery is right in assuming the guy (Ocalan) has been totally drugged and/or promised death if he does not say what they(great Turkey dicates him to say) .Otherwise…
    Why should he of all those Hundreds of thousands of kurds around(millions rather , if you consider the real Kurdish population not there at that square ,whatever, mentiond IN THE FIRST PLACE ARMENIANS!!!!!

    Mr. ocalan, there are not any armenians there in that area where kurds are now..
    Why do you (or your bosses) bother to mention us Armenians…
    or is it because you know moe important than the Kurdish problem(at hand) you have ……. T H E most important one,which is the Armenian genocide!!!!!!
    come come now, we are not that simple ,we know when we are INDIRECTLY ADDRESSED TO.And that by one person who as yet is IN YOUR CAPTIVITY!!!!

  13. Sylva-MD-Poetry. alawites pro-turkish and kurds mostly pro-turkish if you search their area votes you will see result

  14. Hagop, I am not going going to teach you the history of Hungary or China, or etc. Go to wikipedia and you will see how these countries too were built by subjugators.

    And let me get this straight. Are you saying that Armenians spontaneously popped out of the ground in Western Turkey? Again, your historical knowledge is nothing my an oxymoron. The hisotry of mankind is one of migrations and moves, from Africa, all over the world, from place to place. Are you saying that the ARmenians were one of the original African tribes who left the continent 350,000 years ago and came straight to Ararat and been there ever since?

    • Karim Khan,

      All I know Tatar-Turks were in Altai mountain and Artsakhi Armenians were living in their homeland with christian neighbors called Aran or Aghvan people, where
      your beloved Turkic ancestors destroyed their churches just like Nakhichevan Julfa’s, thousand years old Armenian cemetery and assimilated them as newly converted Muslim Turks, where you guys call today Axerbaijan!!

  15. Avery,
    Sorry, I mixed up.It was DAVE above, who wrote about drugging Ccalan.
    But you said a lot more harsher things re Fascist Turkey…
    So what…and I say what i know is only TRUE…

  16. To all guys who understood this meeting as a beginning of seperation:

    Haven’t we read the same document? The main argument here is that the terrorists are leaving Turkey for good. I don’t know if they will do that, but actually it is a miting FOR united turkey (even enlarged), not AGAINST.

    I think its the only news here for me that we share the same feeling, (happiness), probably because you misunderstood the event (=

  17. Kerim, your comments are void of historical truths and logic. The point my colleagues have made is the fact that the Armenians are one of the very few indigenous people from the 3rd millennium B.C. to exist as a functioning culture into the 21st century A.D. Indigenous to the land called eastern Anatolia and the southern Caucasus. This is our “deed” to the land. A continuous presence limited only by the murderous advances of early Turkish tribes, discrimination, oppression and finally genocide. None of that , thankfully , changes the facts and the truth; despite attempt to label our culture as Anatolian or Turkish. The land of Ararat will always be Armenian because of our presence since the earliest civilized times.
    Now what is your claim ? The Turks have never been able to deal with the contributions of “minorities” in their midst. Instead of celebrating the diversity of the contributions , they committed genocide to,the indigenous Christian population, denied the facts and distort their cultural,presence as “Anatolian or Turkish”. Co-existence starts with respect. Our history, our presence, our contributions our culture and identity. You want respect. Start with accepting your past( and present).

    • Stepan,

      It is more correct to say: “indigenous to the land called eastern Asia Minor not eastern Anatolia”. Anatolia-Anadolu is a Turkish creation in a deliberate attempt to Turkify geographic toponyms, such as Eastern Asia Minor.

  18. to Hagop D
    I like his very concise and perfect reasoning to Kerim w/rgd to definition of word turk and Osmanli…
    it is a very correct definitiion.No one could have said it better.
    However, will Kerim and /or his like (Turks) comprehend that .I wonder….
    And even if they grasp and undeerstand it thoroughly ,will they accept these factoids!!! again a question mark????
    Why?. I think I have the quick and acceptable answer:-
    Those who do understand and accept …however, are nmot willing to give up confiscated land ,goods, homes, churhces and all those shools..Within bracekte now. I have book by prof. Richard G.hovhjannissian bought it from him personall 5 yrs ago when he delivered a discourse re all or near `provinces of Western Armenia collecting small pieces of relics with armenian inscriptions on them and photos that he took and HAD,comparing these etc.,
    in one such where the Sanasarian Lycee in Karin(Erzeroum) is…where my father graduated from…beleive it or not it looks like any secondary school in the West and or in Ra nowadasy…beautifull building…anyhow…talking of R.G.Hovahanissian. Him , plus prof. Vahagn dadrian,Safrastian and a host of others are in the Ani Plaza hotel, Yerevan today and tomorrow…
    at a very important Conference that the State has organized in ref. to regrouping preparing all events w/ref to 100th Anniversary commemoration of the Genocide perpetrated upon us by Ottoman and Ataturk Turkey…
    All, almost all present there are historians and/or correspondents journalist like Harout Sassounian and many many others.I treid ahrd to see on International Attorney…could not make out.Luckily I had just received communication from Civilitas..
    Then asked to convey my ¨suggestion¨ there ought to be some int´l Attorneys there.Even in RA ther are a few and hopefully amongst those participating there may be a few or at least one.Hope there are…
    For such an important Conf. ought to have latter amongst them!!!!
    A historian is one thing an international Law attorney another….
    Armenians are all for culture, books history but how about the NOWADAYs LAWSUITS SUEINGS ETC., WHICH from important aprt of international relations………………………….

  19. John says: “For me, it is easier to have Kurds as negotiators of possible land restitution issues than unrepentant, unremourseful, and utterly arrogant Turks.”

    Really? Here is reality. No one is EVER going to give a land to you as an I-am-sorry. If you want it, you have to go and get it. Writing letters to California Sentators or sending $25 contribution checks to ANCA is never going to get your lands back. I know it is a good dream around which your can maintain your ethnic identiy in a far-away land.

    If I were Turkey, I would help Azerbaijan (and directly so) to take back Karabak. Why? Because Karabak is the only victory the poor Armenians have had in the last 1500 years, and it has emboldened them. Now they think: If Karabak was possible to get, then why not one third of Turkey? Didn’t President Sarkissian essentially say the same thing to Armenian school-children last year when they asked about when can we get Turkey? ‘We got Karabak. And you dream big for your next generation). So, Turkish “brothers”, you need to nip this stuff in the bud.

    • Several blunders in one post, Kerim Bey.

      First, I never touched upon the issue as to how the land is being restituted. I said: if negotiations over possible land restitution ensue, I personally would feel more comfortable dealing with the Kurds than with unrepentant and unremorseful Turks. Do you have a reading comprehension predicament?

      Second, Armenians have no issue whatsoever with maintaining ethnic identify whether in Armenia proper or in a far-away land. One of the few ancient, indigenous peoples inhabiting the Earth who have made enormous contributions to the world civilization by definition have no problem with maintaining ethnic identify. Artificial nations, popped up from nowhere, with no uniquely own alphabet, language, culture, cuisine, and even the name of a nation, normally suffer from the lack of ethnic identify and from the inferiority complex.

      Third, “poor” Armenians haven’t had the “only victory” in Artsakh in the last 1500 years. In your other post you claimed you knew almost nothing abiut the Armenian history, but now you show some “knowledge”—however ridiculous it is—about our history. How does this characterize you, Kerim Bey? A liar or a fool? Or both?

      1500 years ago? Hmm… Meaning our last victory, according to your pseudo-historical “science”, was registered somewhere about 5th-6th centuries AD? Well, guess what, after that time period there were impressive victories of the Bagratuni (Bagratid) Armenian dynasty over the Arabs in the 9th-10th centuries and the many dynasties of the Armenian Cilician Kingdom in the 12th-15th centuries AD. And I guess you conveniently forgot, if you knew at all, the Armenian victories at Sardarabad, Bash Abaran, and Karakilisa in the 20th century that defeated the aggression of the outnumbering Turkish barbarians?

      Because your whole mentality, Kerim Bey, is limited to a primordial perception: whatever is related to Turkic nation is good and whatever is related to the Armenian nation is bad, right? Any flexibility of mind and ability to think beyond the nutshell? Or this is something typical to Turks and their Turkic brethren Caucasian Tatars-turned-“Azerbaijanis”?

  20. Necati, it is time again fotr you to celebrate Kurdish New Year with Turkish Raki, cold melon, and goat cheese, on top of ARmenian made silver plate, in Ataturk famous hamam!!

    May spring be with you and with your Kurdish friends, for the rest of the year!!

    Kurds remember what they have done to Armenians and Christian population of Ottoman’s Turkey, when Osmani CUP leaders, fool them for Independent Kurdistan, over 100 years ago!! Do you think, that they are so stupid to believe and trust Altai people again??

  21. Necati,
    It is the other way around!!!
    Kurds are betraying the Turks,NOW!!!
    They are changing,they learned the hard way -having been submitted to brutal rule by the New Turkey to persecution-are turning away from Turks/Turkey.
    If you refer to betrayals, then ,it is true Kurds betrayed Ermenis THEN 97 yrs ago , because the ottoman Empire and Ataturk Turkey promise d thme the spoils…
    Now that they have been completely let down by great Turkey….
    Are about to come to us…completely!!!!!

  22. Karim Khan,

    You can cry for your losses in AW as much as you want, but your information about Armenia is not completed yet, you still needs a lot of education about Armenia and Armenian highland, before obtaining Tatar’s diploma!!

    In the last 100 years Armenia won 2 wars!! 2-nd one you know by heart and I don’t want to re-humiliate you again!

    the first war happened during Armenian Genocide, when Lenin decided to leave Western Armenia and left the entire Western Armenia for Ottomans, and called Russian army back to Moscow for Bolshevik revolution!!

    Ottoman Turks took an opportunity and tried to occupy entire Armenian highland, a war broke up in today’s Armavir town in Armenia, where Ottoman Turks were defeated by few thousand brave Armenian soldiers, unfortunately we had no more strength to get our Western losses!! If your Sheikhdom try 2-nd stage war, then will be our 3-rd victory in 100 years!!

    This battle called Sardarabad war and recorded in world history book.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Sardarabad

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiTvPBama5g

  23. Kerim…. The resilience and survival of an ethnic is based on the depth and unifying nature of their culture. How else can you explain the presence of a vibrant Armenian culture today after centuries of upheaval , oppression and destruction.
    We are a people who peers were the ancient Greeks, Romans, Medes, Babylonians etc…..all before the relatively recent arrival of your ancestors.
    Our lands have been won and lost innumerable times. We are patient and our faith tells us that with goodness and contributions to world civilization , a new Armenia will always be born in the valleys of Ararat. Look at our history and put today’s challenges in that context. Massive forced migration that resulted in the establishment of the Cilician Kingdom in the 11th century. A genocide ravaged people defeats the barbaric Turkish army bent on the total,annihilation of the Armenians and establishes a new republics. Yes short lived, thanks to the continued aggression of the Turks and Bolsheviks, but it is the basis for our rebirth in 1991. We have a history of beating the odds. Like 4000 years of history. Denying the truth and our rights will not change our mindset. A whole new generation awaits,their responsibility to,carry forward…. Just as they have in the face of aggressors for centuries.

  24. To John … You got me. You are absolutely correct in that I didn’t know what the heck I was talking about when saying that Armenians had not won anything else besides Karabak in the last 1500 years ago. Now that I think about it, I dont know what I was thinking about. I guess I was going for a dramatic effect. I think the very fact that you guys have been called the same name for a very long time is a great victory in itself. By the way, i have always been curious how Armenians were able to maintain their christianity in the face of Arab invasion. You and Georgians are the only ones who have kept Christianity in the region. I dont have time (or interest frankly) to read about it extensively, but a quick history lesson would be appreciated. How did you keep Arabs away?

    @RDVD, Hagop, et al … by the way, a very interesting discussion on the word ‘Turk’ and ‘Turkey’. RDVD, you make great points, by I have just been convinced by Hagop and others that ‘Turk’ and Turkish are anocrhonistic terms when applied to pre-1920s.

    • Kerim,

      “You and Georgians are the only ones who have kept Christianity in the region. I dont have time (or interest frankly) to read about it extensively, but a quick history lesson would be appreciated. How did you keep Arabs away?”

      Kerim, it is very simple. When a nation is civilized enough to have deep and distinct cultural values, language, alphabet, literature, music, food, traditions etc, it does not take what comes its way easily. One day when you have time and desire I recommend you to pay a visit to Matenadaran in Yerevan-you will understand many things.

    • Educated people write Christianity with capital “C”, Kerim. The same goes to any other world religion. Secondly, Christinaity does not belong only to Armenians and Georgians, therefore the usage of “their” is absolutely inappropriate. 2.5 billion people all over the world consider themselves followers of Jesus Christ.

      As for Armenian victories over the Arabs, in the next post.

    • Karim read, John 3:16 – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia, you will get the answer!!

      Armenians – Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      First Christian Nation – Armenia

    • Kerim,

      A short summary of the 1500 years which you had asked earlier. Islamic armies occupied this area in around 638-640 AD during the reign of Caliph Umar, the relationship between the Christian subjects and the rulers was not tense but was generally cordial, as Islam and Christianity are much alike due to the personality of Jesus (PBUH) and Mary (PBUH) are both revered and respected in Islam. You might be surprised that Aramaic the language Jesus spoke is a sister language of Arabic, more muslims speak Aramaic than Christians in Syria.

      The same situation continued during the Umayyad Dynasty from 661-750 AD which was then followed by the Abbasid Dynasty 750-1258 AD. Armenians had their own rulers, there were 5 kingdoms known as Khamsin (which means 5 in Arabic). The Abbasid dynasty encouraged arts and culture and was the time for great scientific and technological progress for all in the region. A persian Scholar Ibn Sina (Avicenna) wrote the Canons of Medicine which was the prescribed text book for more than 400 years, and helped in starting the European renaissance. Persia and Baghdad were centres of learning. A lot of churches were built during that time as well, example is Ani had a thousand churches built during this time….

      The world changed when Ghengiz Khan took charge of the tribes in Mongolia, his grandson Halagu Khan decimated the entire area in 1258, millions were killed. Halagu in Persian means death and destruction. Persia had a population of 2 million then which was reduced to less than 200 thousand, the population recovered to 13 century levels only in the 20th century ! An interesting fact is Halagu’s wife was Armenian ! (not sure if he had other wives though). This was the biggest blow to the Islamic empire, some parts have still not fully recovered from that onslaught. Only the western fringe of the Islamic empire areas like Egypt and the Maghreb were untouched.

      Then a strange miracle happened, the destroyers of the Islamic empires themselves converted to Islam in the 14th and 15th centuries and spread both east and west. These Mongols used Persian culture for their development and growth. Halagu’s grandson Babur conquered India and established an empire, the Mughal Empire in the east covering areas from Kabul to Decca, in the west we had the Ottoman empire which extended up to Poland this was abolished in the 20th century shortly after the first world war. This is in a nutshell the 1500 years for you.

      I have an e-book for you, please send me an E-Mail at amjad_a at hotmail dot com, I shall send it over to you.

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