Israel’s Parliament, the Knesset, held “an historic session” on June 12, during which “seven different political parties overwhelmingly endorsed recognition of the Armenian Genocide,” according to Dr. Israel Charny, the executive director of the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide in Jerusalem. He cautiously predicted that the Knesset would complete its legislative procedures leading to recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
While acknowledging the genocide would be salutary, Israel should have done so long ago. In fact, the Jewish state should have been the first country to recognize the genocide, in view of the awesome legacy of the Holocaust, the Shoah. Who should empathize more with the victims of genocide than those who have suffered a similar fate themselves? As Knesset member Nino Abesadze pointed out during the hearing, “It is precisely because we have been a victim people that we do not dare fail to identify with another victim people.” Another influential Knesset member, Zeev Elkin, the chair of the Likud Caucus, stated, “We are one of the last nations in the world that has still not recognized the Armenian Genocide. It is our moral responsibility that we have still not met.”
During the June 12 hearing, Knesset Chairman Reuven Rivlin spoke “firmly and inspiringly” with “profound feeling of both a Jewish and an Israeli imperative to extend a long overdue recognition,” Charny reported. Rivlin announced that there was no need for a new vote to recognize the Armenian Genocide since the Knesset had already voted unanimously for its recognition last year. Charny explained that unlike the U.S. Congress, Knesset resolutions first go to the Plenary Session before being considered by one of its committees. The next step for the genocide resolution is the Education Committee, after which it will be sent back to the Knesset for a final vote. Only then can it be said that the Knesset has officially recognized the Armenian Genocide.
One of the unexpected developments at the June 12 hearing was a statement by Minister of Environmental Affairs Gilad Erdan, who announced that he was speaking officially on behalf of the government. He stated unambiguously that Israel had decided to recognize the Armenian Genocide. Furthermore, Erdan claimed that “the State of Israel has never denied it; on the contrary, we deplore the [Armenian] genocide.” This was a surprising statement, since it is well known that, under Turkish pressure, Israel has persistently opposed recognition of the genocide. Nevertheless, in defiance of Israeli state denialism, on April 24, 2000, Minister of Justice Yossi Beilin and Minister of Education Yossi Sarid acknowledged the Armenian Genocide, prompting the government to repudiate their statements. Beilin had also recognized the genocide in 1994, while serving as deputy foreign minister.
The fact that serious discussions on the Armenian Genocide are now taking place at a time of deteriorating relations between Turkey and Israel raises troubling questions about the motives of the Israeli government. It would be morally repugnant to see the mass murder of a nation being exploited for crass political calculations. Yet, one has to realize that international relations are rarely based on moral principles. Were it not for economic and political considerations, the whole world would have long ago recognized the Armenian Genocide.
While critics may be displeased that Israel is considering recognition of the genocide at a time of discord with Turkey, the greater wrong, in my view, was not doing the right thing for all these years. Even now, despite efforts to rectify the past and uphold the truth, some Israeli officials are concerned that raising the Armenian Genocide issue would further exacerbate relations with Turkey. Knesset member Arieh Eldad dismissed such objections by pointing out the illogical stance of the naysayers: “A few years ago, people said we couldn’t talk about it because of our good relations with Turkey. Now people say we can’t talk about it because of our bad relations with Turkey.”
Eldad added that when people are reluctant to address moral and ethical issues there is always a claim that the timing of such a discussion is wrong.
There is, however, one red line that no Armenian should cross: Israeli officials have sought to obtain political concessions from Armenia and Armenians in return for genocide recognition. Such demands should be rejected outright since Armenians do not owe anything to Israel for recognizing the genocide—a universally acknowledged historical fact. Israel should recognize the Armenian Genocide simply because it is the right thing to do, reflecting the sentiments of all righteous Jews worldwide.
Harut Sassounian
{There is, however, one red line that no Armenian should cross: Israeli officials have sought to obtain political concessions from Armenia and Armenians in return for genocide recognition. Such demands should be rejected outright since Armenians do not owe anything to Israel for recognizing the genocide—a universally acknowledged historical fact. Israel should recognize the Armenian Genocide simply because it is the right thing to do, reflecting the sentiments of all righteous Jews worldwide.}
The best paragraph. (Another one from Mr. Sassounian to print and hang on the wall.)
What concessions would Israel expect from RoA ?
That Armenia turn against Iran ?
If that is what they expect, they must be mad.
Iranians are our genetic cousins and have been our neighbors for thousands of years. Islamic Republic of Iran provided vital humanitarian aid to RoA and NKR, while both were literally fighting for their survival. At the same time Israel was providing advanced military tech to Azerbaijan.
Israel has been arming Azerbaijan to the teeth, knowing full well Azerbaijan represents an existential threat to Armenians in RoA and NKR.
Israel was also supporting Azerbaijan during the 1991-1994 war (for a handsome fee). Again, knowing full well that Azerbaijan was attempting to exterminate and ethnically cleanse indigenous Armenians from Artsakh.
And despite the hysterics and theatrics from some, Iran is no existential threat to Israel: not even close.
So yeah, ” Armenians do not owe anything to Israel for recognizing the Genocide”. On the contrary: Israel owes Armenians for supporting – diplomatically and military – two countries that have demonstrated the willingness and have the ability to wipe Armenia off the face of the Earth.
Avery,
Who do you think the young Turks were? Who today, do you think controls Turkey’s banking and military?
The USA has planted over 40 nuclear war heads on Turkish soil with 20 controlled by Turks and 20 or so controlled by the US… Tell me, what other “99% Muslim country” would the US ever in a million years do something like that to? Especially needing to pass by the ever mighty and all controlling Israeli lobby?
Israel is no friend of Armenian people…Lets be perfectly clear…
Oh please! Every intelligent being on this planet has a pretty good idea why Israel hasn’t recognized the Armenian genocide. “The benefits outweigh the risks”.
I think you meant to write: The risks outweigh the benefits.
Please explain the benefits and the risks so that we can learn what “every intelligent being on this planet” already knows.
I appreciate that, unlike many others, you are using your full name.
Israel’s recognition of Armenian Genocide is long overdue and USE-LESS for many reasons.
Armenian political analysts, such as Mr. Sassounian are better to put Israel’s manipulative tactics at the lowest shelf of our priorities!
A welcome development indeed.
However, it was not for me clear what concessions Israel expects from Armenia, if the indeed do. If it’s what Avery says, I agree hundred percent with him. But, if not, Mr. Sassounian had to state it clearer.
Jamgochian
Who doesn’t act according to that approach in our world? Do you think the big powers who tried the Nazi criminals did that for their love of Jewish people?
Dear Mr. Sassounian,
I have been actively involved for more than 20 years, in supporting all actions, research and expressing moral outrage against ALL those who have failed to recognize and memorialize the great tragedy of the Armenian genocide, and have been very outspoken in my disgust over the blatant lies and cowardly deception of both Obama and Hillary Clinton, who had no shame pandering for Armenian votes and donations to secure the power they desired politically – and having then secured the Armenian support – immediately betrayed and violated every moral principle. America never had a problem to recognize the Genocide of 1,5 Million Armenian souls, along with 500,000 Assyrian, Greeks from Pontus, Thrace, Anatolia and Smyrna – they had the status and the defense capabilities – and the International power base and standing – but failed morally.
Israel, even to Armenia – has never been in the same position as other countries. This small State has not even had time to recover or to heal from the horrors and overwhelming tragedy of the death camps – even as they declared the State ( about the size of New Jersey – and surrounded by hostile Arabs with a CHARTER of Genocide to kill every Jew, with a Q’ran which spews the hatred and malice in religious form) – they were immediately attacked by five Arab Nations simultaneously – not once – but CONTINUOUSLY since the holocaust – over 16, 650 violent and deadly assaults and murders, suicide bombers, hijacked airplanes, bombings of Synagogues, along with more than 12,500 rockets and mortars launched on civilians on a DAILY basis – death threats issued against them – from Egypt, Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Yemen, Sudan, Algeria, Libya, Qatar………..and every islamic terrorist organization on the planet – including the Islamic terrorist disguised as a “secular” – Erdogan. Six massive wars have been launched against Israel since the holocaust – and that, my Armenian friends, for whom I, individually, and many Israelis, have great affection, compassion and genuine admiration – I ask that you also understand the very unique circumstances and geographical size and location of Israel, to have a better understanding of how delicate and fragile it’s conditions of survival and
security is – and the fact that it is surrounded by terrorism, and by 1.8 billion Arabs sworn to it’s destruction. So if it has taken some time for Israel to recover it’s balance, amidst the hostility and geographic dilemma – you, of all people – should understand the risks, the threats and the backlash Israel will faced with – for no people on this planet have been vilified, libeled, persecuted continuously for over 3000 years – as the Israelites. And when they do recognize and stand up to give you their complete moral and physical support, you should know at what risk they shall do it – as compared with America, or any BIG nation, who’s risk and consequence are negligible, compared with Israel – the ‘smallest kid on the block’……..and the most courageous, as I will say with determination and pride. Ask yourself, as Armenians – WHO stood up for Israel, who supported Israel physically and morally – when they were overwhelmed with hostility, condemnation and hate crimes? Did Armenia volunteer to help Israel to fight against the belligerent Arab invaders – knowing that Israel had lost six million souls ? Russia was a protector of Armenia – but Russia also committed extensive and devastating genocide and mass ethnic cleansing of Jews – did Armenia stand up for those Jewish victims?
Those are the tough questions – and yes, we have to ask those questions, but, in the end – Hrant Dink was a hero in the heart of many, many Jews and Israelis, and we have deep feelings about the pain and suffering Armenia experienced – because we, too experienced that pain and still do, because we have never been allowed to heal from the emotional burden and spiritual pain YET – in fact, there has never been a period of peace – or the time to recover – since the death camps.
It was a great shock for Israel, to discover that the “secular” Turks – had morphed into a terrorist embracing, belligerent Islamic agenda – and the relationship was ended as a result. The disease of belligerence was cured with a healthy dose of antibiotics – and a reality check – and had nothing to do with Israel’s moral longing to pronounce it’s solidarity on a moral level – even Armenia has had to co-operate with Turkey – or suffer their denial and moral bankruptcy – and all Israelis know – that what to them is an act of human decency and moral sanity – is to the Turks – a declaration of war – and every Armenian should know that.
In the end – for America – recognizing the Genocide would have been “small change”………..for Israel, it is a very big investment of moral faith and genuine courage. You must see it in the correct perspective.
As always, I convey the utmost support and compassion, comfort and respect, to the people of Armenia, to those living, and to those souls who’s memory will be preserved and honored in the hearts of all men and women with the courage to speak for them, and to weep for their suffering.
Long live Hrant Dink – who spoke for us all.
Rebecca,
The best “compassion and comfort” any Jew can do on this planet is to stand up and recognize the truth of the Armenian genocide. It takes no more effort then a decision to profess the truth and in doing so would in fact put Israel on the right moral track in the eyes of most all modern civilized nations..
No one is asking for the Israeli’s to fight Armenians battles but using the recognition as a political tool, as it does so now, is disingenuous at best. Also, not only does Israel not recognize the Armenian genocide, but actually arms its MUSLIM Azeri FOE who only talks of war with Armenia…That would be like the Armenians not recognizing the Holocaust and then helping to arm Iran with modern weapons…
Rebecca, you lost ALL credibility by generally labeling Muslims terrorists. Nothing you ever say on this board will have substance ever again. Please, crawl back into your hole.
Rebecca:
{“Russia was a protector of Armenia – but Russia also committed extensive and devastating genocide and mass ethnic cleansing of Jews – did Armenia stand up for those Jewish victims?”}
What are you talking about ?
When did this happen ?
There surely were occasional anti Jewish pogroms in Russia, mostly by local rabble, but what “genocide” are you talking about ?
And there are no 1.8 Billion Arabs around Israel: the number is 300 Million Arabs. There are 1.6 Billion Muslims worldwide.
{“Did Armenia volunteer to help Israel to fight against the belligerent Arab invaders – knowing that Israel had lost six million souls ? “}
Israel had not lost 6 million souls: there was no Israel at the time of the Holocaust.
It was European Jews who lost 6 million from 9 million in Europe.
Regarding Armenia: Armenia SSR was part of USSR when Israel was founded, and fought its wars against her Arab neighbors.
The foreign policy of USSR was run from Moscow, not Yerevan.
Armenia became independent in 1991.
Did Israel help Armenia when Azerbaijan and Turkey were attempting to exterminate and ethnically cleanse Armenians in Artsakh ?
NO: Not only Israel did not help Armenia, she helped Azerbaijan.
So shut it about Armenia helping or not helping Israel.
And here is something for you to contemplate:
[On May 17, 1948, three days after Israel declared independence, the Soviet Union legally recognized it de jure, becoming the first country to grant de jure recognition to the Jewish state]
Got that ? Soviet Union was the first country in the world to recognize Israel.
And learn a little about history of Armenia and the Armenian people before you make sweeping accusations.
Rebecca –
Why has the Hebrew State of Israel and its its affiliated organizations in the US such as the ADL, JINSA, AJC and AIPAC have for the past twenty years *WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY* and *ACTIVELY* lobbied and incessantly worked against the recognition of the Armenian genocide by the US Congress and numerous other organizations and elsewhere?
For two decades, the Israel lobby in the US was feeding the wolf … now the wolf has grown and is coming back to eat them.
When will the Israel lobby (AJC, JINSA, ADL and AIPAC) stop supporting Turkey’s denial of its crime of genocide of 1.5 million Armenians and stop blocking the US Congress from passing a resolution to acknowledge it? And, when will the State of Israel do the right thing and acknowledge the Armenian genocide?
The world doesn’t take seriously what American Jewish leaders have to say about the 6 million Jews killed during World War II, not when it sees the same Jewish leaders lobby the US Congress against acknowledging the Genocide of Armenians and quite everyone over the murders of 1.5 million other innocents.
Raphael Lemkin, a lawyer of Polish-Jewish descent and Holocaust survivor, coined the word “genocide” specifically to describe the barbarity that befell the Armenians at the hands of the Turkish State. Dr. Lemkin explained that the Turks committed genocide with the full intent to annihilate; he added “I became interested in genocide because it happened so many times, first to the Armenians, then after the Armenians, Hitler took action.” – CBS News Interview 1949
The inscriptions from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington reads, “Who, after all, speaks today of the annihilation of the Armenians?” – Adolf Hitler on the eve of the invasion of Poland and destruction of European Jewry.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hitler_Armenian_Quote.JPG
We cannot help but ask ourselves, had the world community used its full energy and resources to speak out against the Armenian Genocide, might the world have become more aware and more forcibly interceded against the destruction of European Jewry during the time of the Nazis?
When will Israel acknowledge the Genocide of Armenians?
Rabbi Hillel said it best, “If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?”
It looks like Turkey and Israel deserve each other.
This is the same Hebrew State of Israel that has been providing Azerbaijan with weapons at the tune of US 1.5 billion every year for the past 6 years.
This is the same Hebrew State of Israel that has a large number of military advisers training the war mongering Azerbaijani Army.
And, this is the same Hebrew State of Israel that continues to supply Azerbaijan with armed drones, one of which was shot down over Artzakh few months ago.
And, this is the same Hebrew State of Israel that has denied the Armenian genocide since its existence.
And, this is the same Hebrew State of Israel that has lobbied the US Congress through its affiliated organizations such as the ADL, JINSA, AJC and AIPAC to block passage of the Armenian Genocide recognition.
Finally, this is the same Hebrew State of Israel that is now trying to extort concessions from Armenia as a bargain for passing a symbolic half-baked acknowledgment.
Rabbi Hillel said it best, “If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?”
Inscriptions from the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington DC:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hitler_Armenian_Quote.JPG
Berge,
Regarding to Israel’s arming Azerbaijan I do not see a problem yet. I think, and it has been told by many experts, that Azerbaijan is not ready to start a war again unless the geopolitical situation will change drastically. Having said this, I am glad that they are spending their billions to buy weapons instead of investing this money in their oil dependent economy. Because when they will run out of oil their economy will collapse and the weapons that they bought will become obsolete. As long as they are exporting oil, Western powers will not allow them to start a war, again, unless things change dramatically. I am assuming their oil exports will continue till 2025-2030. Do you think the weapons that they bought in 2012 will be very useful in 13-18 years? Maybe my thinking process is wrong but I think they are throwing their billions into water.
Just because their oil exports declined last year their GDP grew only by 0.2% (if we can trust official data of course).
They will never recognize the Armenian genocide because they’re using it to blackmail Turkey; if they did, they wouldn’t have anyhing to pressure Turkey and the latter will then attack them on their Palestinian ethnic cleansing.
Turkey is the only NATO country that can say no to Israel and publish its crimes, the others need the Israeli. When you are like Israel guilty of ethnic cleansing, you cannot tell the truth about the Genocide, according to the Lebanese saying: “when your house is made of glass you don’t throw stones on you neighbors”
Rebecca
You should have learned a little bit the Turkish and the Armenian history and their relationship before uttered any word .but do not worry that Turkey will not go to war when Israel does something about it, however Turkey will rightly use it at every opportunity and ultimately , This will also postpone the peace between the tow countries you should also remember that Turkey isn’t all about the Erdogan and his government
Dear Rebecca. In fact the majority of jewish people living in Armenia now are the ones that many Armenian intellectuals saved from the death, helping them to move from Russia to Armenia safely.Thanks to the great scholars like Orbelian…
As victims of related Genocides, both Israel and Armenia must be vigilant not to be wiped off the face of the earth. Both face the same enemy to a degree – militant Islam.
Although we see the enemy as Turkic, both secular and Moslem, and count many Moslems as friends, let’s not forget that some Moslems believe that all “lost” Moslem lands must be regained by expelling, killing or enslaving non-Moslems. Hence, we had Mujaheddin from Pakistan fighting in Artsakh, and the world Moslem bodies always defend Turkey and Az.
Where we differ is that Israel oppresses all Arabs who live in or near her borders, including Palestinian Christians, an oppression which spills over onto the Armenians of Jerusalem, Nazareth, and the Palestinian areas. Armenia oppresses no Jews, or Moslems qua Moslems.
Israel should be allied with Armenia as a matter if ideology, just as she should proclaim the murder of our Martyrs, but she will always pick Kurds, Turks and Azeris…until oil is found in Armenia.
Dazzled,
It is a blessing that we do not have oil. Let’s hope it will stay that way.
” Armenia oppresses no Jews, or Moslems”
Armenia has Jews and Muslims? How many, a couple hundred each? Pretty easy to not oppress a group when barely any live in your country to begin with.
You start off by saying Israel’s enemy is militant Islam, and later on say Israel oppresses all Arabs who live in or near its borders- let’s accept this second part as true for now. Which is it? Who is the victim? Israel or the all the Arabs you say they oppress?
Where Israel and Armenia differ, is that Israel has been spoiled by the United States for decades now. They have gone from a people defending themselves from attacks from their neighbors to overconfident, reckless, and a warmongering people with no regard for international law. Don’t insult your nation by comparing it to Israel- the state going down the same path of evil as the one who nearly wiped their people off the face of the earth.
“Pretty easy to not oppress a group when barely any live in your country to begin with.”
In the Ottoman Empire only meager 10 percent of its population were Armenians. Assyrians probably 5 percent. Alewis even less than that. But it didn’t prevent savage Ottoman Turks from mass murdering those native groups.
It’s not the existence of minorities that prompts the “dominant” nation to oppress them, but the general attitude of the “dominant” nation towards the minorities however scarce in numbers they are.
RVDV,
I said that both Armenia and Israel are threatened to a degree by militant killer Islam. Not entirely, and not solely. Chechen fighters and Mujaheddin from Pakistan came to, and died in Artsakh, which they sought to ‘liberate” to a nominally Moslem country. Killing Christians and Jews is something they fantasize about. Armenia is the easternmost Christian land, and Artsakh the easternmost part.
No matter what Israel’s sins are, there is no doubt that before the State of Israel even existed, some Moslems wanted all Jews dead, see e.g. the horrific story of the Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler Pal, Amin Al-Husseini, who wanted Hitler to speed the trains to Auschwitz. Al Qaeda digs dead Armenians as well as dead Jews. We do have a common enemy.
None of this gives Israel a moral license to oppress the Palestinians, and all Armenians know they are trying to squeeze Armenians out of Jerusalem, just the way they squeezed out Christian and Moslem Arabs. So again, ironically, we have a common enemy in this additional and contradictory way in which Israel is the enemy.
Armenians have, and for centuries have had a very good relationship with most Moslems. We get along famously in Persia, at least in the big cities. Rural life can be dicier. Armenians have always co-existed with other religions once we became Christian, that is.
There is supposed to be Firman by Mohammed telling his troops to leave the Armenians of Jerusalem in peace.
“They (Ottomans) are the ones who committed the genocide, not modern Turkey”. This is just one of your attempts to soften modern Turkey’s responsibility for the Armenian genocide. Such a phrase is often found in denialists’ vocabulary. Again, the Republic of Turkey is the legal successor of the Ottoman Empire.
“Pretty easy to not oppress a group when barely any live in your country” is another attempt. It sounds like a tacit justification for oppression of a minority group if the group constitutes more than several hundred people in a society. I showed you that Armenians numbered roughly 10 percent in the Ottoman Turkish society, Assyrians even much less than that. Alewis – insignificant number. Nothing stopped the Turks – neither the insignificant number of non-Turks nor a drive for humanism in regard to defenseless women, elders, and children.
Talin: I’m Kurdish and an Alevi, don’t try an tell me about what Turks have done in the past.
Well, then don’t tell me that Turks oppressed a group because the group was significant in number. Neither the Assyrians nor the Alevis were a significant minority group. I’d argue that even the Armenians, constituting a meager 10 percent of the entire population of the Ottoman empire, were significant enough. Turks oppress minority groups not because of their number, but because Turks have proven record of sick sense of superiority over them, as well as xenophobia and ethnic and religious intolerance towards non-Turks.
” the majority of jewish people living in Armenia ”
Ani,
How many jews in Ermenia in total ?
Necati,
Can you please explain what Ermenia means? I as an Armenian, and I am sure many other nationalities, do not understand that word. When writing your comments can you please use a language that is understandable to readers? I think I requested that at least twice before.
Necati. There are almost 800 jews, many left for israel during the Artsakh war with Azerbaijan.Unlike many other countries In Armenia there is no unti- semitism, and jewish community enjoys freedom, respect and equality. They have thier rabbi , and recently their ancient grave site was rebuilted by the RA government funds.
I hope you draw fair comparison of the minority situation in Armenia to Turkey. because we all know how Turkey violates minority rights…
I also believe that Israel will never recognize the Armenian Genocide. It’s simple; they think they don’t have to because they have no empathy for other peoples’ suffering. They believe it goes against the principle that they must hold the “monopoly for human suffering”. No other nation could have suffered what Jews have suffered. No other suffering should be labeled the “first” of the 20th Century. No other suffering should even attempt to come to a distant second. The case of the Canadian Genocide Museum in Winnipeg is a good example, where floor space had to be shared with “other” global human sufferings. As expected, of course from the outset, the agenda of layout, design and content was controlled by Israelis with the intent of making their allocated space, the most predominant, the largest, and the first you would visit as you entered the premises. Would Shimon Peres in particular, who was the super salesman of arms and training to Turkey for decades, stand up in the Knesset and recognize the Armenian Genocide? I don’t believe it can happen.
Your comment is anti-semitic.
Jews are often at the forefront of recognizing the Genocide, starting off with Amb. Morgenthau, one of whose male grandchildren is outspoken on our behalf still.
Israel has a realpolitik reason, and it has nothing to do with hogging the sad limelight of suffering. Just as we do not condemn Iran for realpolitik reasons [despite its oppression of damn near all of its citizens, including Armenians, and its denial of the Jewish Holocaust], the Israelis have, until the flotilla crisis , helped Turkey for strategic reasons, and to protect their Jewish hostages inTurkey. All minorities in Turkey are hostages.
Israel may well recognize the AR, but sad to say, its not for the right reason.
Why don’t you condemn Jordan, Iran or Egypt for not condemning the Armenian Holocaust and its perpertrators?
dazzled,
I think that it is great time to be able to disagree with Israeli policies, without being called anti-Semitic. The issues raised in my comments have been widely discussed by the media covering Jewish sentiments concerning suffering.
Just some additional clarifications:
1) Amb. Morgenthau covered events in 1915. The Holocaust was during WWII. There is no correlation between the two.
2) Why not condemn other Arab countries, Iran, etc. for not recognizing the Armenian Genocide? Because this forum debate is about Israel alone. Besides, as a general rule, countries of Muslim faith vote as one block at the UN and elsewhere. No Muslim country will break this line and recognize a Genocide perpetrated by another Muslim brother. Lastly, Algerians in particular, believe that should Turkey be forced to accept the AG, France should be first to acknowledge that it perpetrated Genocide in the Algerian war of independence! Needless to say, the Armenian and Algerian cases have no resemblance whatsoever, and it reflects Algerians total misunderstanding of the term Genocide as coined by Raphael Lemkin on the Armenian model.
@ dazzled
Why is the Hebrew State of Israel “singled out” or is different?
Because, the Hebrew State of Israel and its its affiliated organizations in the US such as the ADL, JINSA, AJC and AIPAC for the past twenty years *went out of their way* and *ACTIVELY* lobbied and incessantly worked against the recognition of the Armenian genocide by the US Congress and numerous other organizations and elsewhere.
Read my previous comment as well.
When you say “anti-Semitic”, do you refer to Arabs, too, who also are a Semitic people?
Sarkis,
Nobody said you were anti semitic because you disagree with the policies of Israel. I said your comment was anti semitic because you claimed that Jews, not Israel, demeaned the suffering of Armenians from some lack of human sympathy or decency.
“I also believe that Israel will never recognize the Armenian Genocide. It’s simple; they think they don’t have to because they have no empathy for other peoples’ suffering. They believe it goes against the principle that they must hold the “monopoly for human suffering”
A nation of shylocks, as you would no doubt also have it. The statement you are making is that Jews lack decency or empathy, or have a supervening feeling of superiority more than other people.
To the degree Israel [not Jews – there is a difference] has not affirmed the Genocide, she is in the bad company of many nations whose racial character you do not attack. That makes you – sorry – an anti semite. Al Qaeda says the same things about Jews you do – they are heartless, soulless, that sort of thing.
Well, the onus is on the Israeli/Jewish lobbies in the US and word wide to show by their acts that they can change course and become understanding of others’ suffering. From an Armenian perspective, it is utopic to think that change can happen based on moral grounds only.
I do not understand why a segment of our community has expectations of support from Israel as far as the Armenian Genocide is concerned.I do not also understand the obsession people have to compare the Armenian Genocide and the Jewish Holocaust , or the plight of Armenians with that of the Jewish people. Each of these cases have a different history, different perspectives. I abhor all violence conducted against human beings , no matter where they live , what ethnicity they belong to . They are all victims and I will militate against any repetition of such acts whether in Rwanda, Gambodgia , Sudan or anywhere else on this earth. If the Israelis want to support the Armenian Genocide out of genuine consideration for human rights and justice , and they do so without reservation , we welcome their support , but nothing less, nothing more. It is a shame that the Israelis have used the Turkish connection to justify an amoral denial of the Armenian Genocide all the way from the then Prime Minister Yithack Shamir to President Simon Peres. Israeli government officials have over the past 40 years repeatedly negated the fact of the Armenian Genocide because it suited their national interests and kicked “morality in politics” out of the window. So stop courting them, and stop giiving them a place in your political discourse.
@ Serop,
if world was rotating ‘just and purely’ based on your beliefs, be sure that, we would still be enjoying Greater Armenia!
John quotes above:
” Who today, do you think controls Turkey’s banking and military?”
Without a doubt they are controlled by the followers of Hizmet / Gulen Movement. As they also control: Education, media, politics (AKP) police and the judiciary system.
THe Gulen Movement and it’s TUSKON businessmen are worth $25 billion and still have a strong desire to gain admittance and then control of the EU.
I believe John hinted at the Dönmeh who are believed to control Turkey’s banking and military today, and controlled the Ottoman Empire at the time of Young Turks.
Why should Israel confirm the Armenian Genocide? Simply put, they own the G word. And with that, they alone have received compensation for confiscation of property, they alone have gotten a firm commitment of American support of their statehood and finally Israel needs are met by dancing with the devil. Twenty five percent of Israel’s hydrocarbon supplies flow through Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey.
“It’s nothing personal, It’s strictly business”.
Talin, you had better check your figures. Turkey’s 1st official census in 1927 showed 13.6 million Turkish citizens. If you look back to 1915. it’s logical to say that in 1915 the population was around 10 million. Using conservative figures, it’s not far fetched that Armenians made up approx. 20% of the Turkish population. The conclusion is 1 in 5 Turkish citizens were eliminated at the minimum. And that’s not genocide!
It’s not logical to look at a 1927 census and compare it with numbers in 1915. When you take in consideration how much land Turkey lost in that time span, it is logical to say that the population was in fact much larger in 1915 then in 1927. The population in 1905-06 was estimated at 20-21 million, and around 15 million in 1919. It’s estimated that the Ottoman Empire had 3 million casualties in WWI, a population decrease of 13%- And 13% of 23 million is about 2.9 million, so the population of the Ottoman Empire was probably in the 20-25 million range.
Darwin,
Wiki suggest that in the pre-genocide year, 1914, the population of the Ottoman empire was around 19-20 mln people. It is generally accepted that the total number of Western Armenians in the empire was around 2 mln before genocide. This makes it roughly 10 percent of the total population. By 1927 the Ottoman Empire had casualties in WWI and virtually all of her native minorities were either slaughtered by the Turks or forcibly deported.
RVDV: “they’re the ones who committed the genocide, not modern Turkey” —
Modern Turkey is the successor state of the Ottoman empire. If modern Turkey did not commit the genocide then why modern Turkey denies the established historical fact, shuns to repent for the crimes against humanity by her predecessors, and obstructs efforts at international recognition of genocide?
I agree that the Armenian population of the Ottoman empire was around 10 not 20 percent. But even such meager figure was enough for the Turks to oppress a group. Your argument that it’s “pretty easy to not oppress a group when barely any live in your country”, therefore, doesn’t hold water.
The 1927 census is the 1st official census of the Republic of Turkey. The 1927 boundaries were essentially the same as they are today. 13.6 million is from the Turkish government’s official data base. Forget the Ottoman Empire because it didn’t exist anymore. I still say Armenians made up 20% of the population before the genocide. There is no twisting of facts from my side.
There is no twisting of facts because you have presented no facts. Armenians did not make up 20% of the Ottoman Empire population before the genocide. You can still say whatever you want, fact is, what you’re saying is simply not true. And you have less than zero evidence. 100% fabrication. The population in 1915 WAS NOT, and I cannot stress this strongly enough, WAS NOT 10 million.
The population in 1919 was 15 million, so you actually believe that WITH 3 MILLION casualties (probably more) in WW1, the Ottoman Empire’s population INCREASED by 5 MILLION in 4 years?
There is no “forget the Ottoman Empire”- they’re the ones who committed the genocide, not modern Turkey, so if we forget the Ottoman Empire we have nothing to discuss.
RVDV,
Please excuse my response if it is based upon a misunderstanding of your comments, which to me appear to be that the Republic of Turkey and its citizens have no liability for the Armenian Genocide because it was the OE which committed that crime. If this is your comment, you must be kidding.
Let’s start with a discussion of concepts divorced from the AG. There is no reason why a new state would not be liable for Genocide of its predecessor where there is a continuity among the leaders, a theft by state actors of the victim group’s places and property, a continuation by state actors and state organs of Genocidal hatred against the victim group, and an ongoing policy of destruction and warfare against the victim group, as well as a failure to make reparation, return of land or restitution.
Otherwise, states at war or peace could exterminate minorities, and simply dissolve after extermination. This shell game is not allowed in civil or criminal law, and I doubt international law allows it as well.
Turning to the AG, we know that many of the top leaders and Governors who carried out the AG rose to power in the Republic, many profited handsomely from the theft of Armenian property, and of course the new state has refused to recognize its bloody foundations, much less pay the victims what is owed. Moreover, through its public officers and semi-state organs such as the Talat Pasa societies, as well as its own laws, it maintains cultural, diplomatic and legal bulwarks against recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
The Republic has been at war against Armenians since it was founded. Let’s not pretend otherwise.
Dazzled: My response was directed towards the comment “forget the Ottoman Empire”. All the issues, genocide, population, percentages, WW1 all of this pertains to a time before 1923- before Turkey. It pertains to the Ottoman Empire- so if we “forget” them, what do we have to talk about? Sure, it was still the Turks who carried out the genocide, and it is still the Turks that are liable for their ancestors crimes, but the crimes themselves took place before Turkey even existed- which doesn’t make anyone innocent in any way. The crimes- which Turks still need to be held accountable for- took place in the Ottoman Empire under the orders of the Sultan. Different flag, different state, different style of rule, same people. Yes, Turks committed the Armenian genocide and are responsible because Turkey is the successor state to the Ottoman Empire, but the genocide itself was committed by the Ottoman Turkish government- therefore we cannot “forget” about the Ottoman Empire and still talk about things like the Armenian genocide.
To everyone on this blog:
As long as the posted comments continue to delve into irrelevant details of the genocide, rest assured Turkey has nothing to worry about.
As long as Armenians are obsessed with demanding Recognition or Acknowledgment, Turkey could not be happier.
It is exactly where Turkey would like Armenians to be stuck – at demanding recognition – which Turkey will issue one some day in the far future.
Why is Turkey Happy that Armenians are obsessed demanding Recognition? And even encourages you to research deeper and deeper into meaningless details of genocide?
Because it does not lead anywhere and does not cost anything significant. (Maybe the cost of throwing some brick and mortar renovating an old Armenain Church somewhere in Tigranagert or Van)
What should Armenians be discussing instead of these nonsensical posts?
Answer: Land, Reparations and Restitution. (Never mind acknowledgment)
Genocide Acknowledgment without Accountability is hollow and meaningless.
Genocide Acknowledgment is irrelevant. What do Armenians expect? A half baked apology by Erdogan and the thug Davitoglu “Okay, we are sorry”. Then what?
How about Accountability for the crime of genocide? Land, Reparations and Restitution.
Are the lives of two million Armenians that were brutally taken away from us worth anything? (Is a mere apology enough?)
“if we forget the Ottoman Empire we have nothing to discuss.”
RVDV,
And the life would be so boring for The Ermenians.
RVDV!
What’s your source?
http://www.hips.hacettepe.edu.tr/nbd_cilt25/mutlu.pdf
Highly detailed account of Ottoman census records- from a Turkish university.
But if you’d prefer a non-Turkish source:
http://www.english.emory.edu/LostPoets/Casualties.html
Lists military casualties of Ottoman Empire at 725,000 plus around 2 million in the genocide and a further 2 million in civilian deaths- non genocide mainly Spanish Flu for about 5 million casualties.
http://www.cwhp.info/ww1_mini_sim/OttomanEmpire_WWI.pdf
Lists Ottoman population at 21.3 million in 1914
http://www.armenian-genocide.org/genocide.html
Word for word what the site says: “The Armenian population of the Ottoman state was reported at about two million in 1915.”
21.3 million population, 2 million Armenians. That’s a little under 10% of the total population.
AND I went out of my way to find non-wikipedia/ legitimate sources.
RVDV,
I take back everything I’ve said. You are absolutely right. It wasn’t a Turk that killed Hrant Dink. It was an Ottoman.
I’ll that as a concession to your previous, incorrect claims. Thank you.
For future reference, look up the differences between national and ethnic identities. You seem confused.
RVDV,
The Great Fire of Smyrna that destroyed much of the port city and its predominantly Christian population in September 1922 was the work of whom? With Ottomans gone, who ethnicity-wise were the perpetrators of the fire and massacres, resulting in estimated 10,000 to 100,000 Greek and Armenian deaths? If Ottomans were the ones who committed the Armenian genocide, then in 1922 it was which nation that committed burning people alive? Was it not modern Turkey?
Turkey was founded on October 29th, 1923. Are you serious right now?
“With Ottomans gone, who ethnicity-wise were the perpetrators of the fire and massacres..”
Ottomans were Turks and Turks were Ottomans. Again are you serious right now? Look up the differences between ethnic and national identities.
Absolutely serious. In 1922 at Smyrna Mustafa Kemal, the founder-to-be of modern Turkey, and his buddies were at devilish work. By no rate was Kemal an Ottoman.
Yes, Ottomans were Turks and Turks were Ottomans. With this in mind, what conclusion are we to arrive from your statement: “they [the Ottomans] were the ones who committed the genocide, not modern Turkey”. Who, ethnically, were the perpetrators regardless the different state formations?
Talin:
Read my above response to Dazzled. I think it will answer your rhetorical questions. If you want to have an actual discussion instead of trying to accuse me of something, let me know.
RVDV,
I’m not accusing you of something. I don’t know you. But when I saw inaccuracies in your comments, I reacted. That simple. I invited your attention to some of your statements that, in my view, were inaccurate and, yes, asked questions. Rhetorical or not, I see that you didn’t answer them.
Talin: read my above response to dazzled. I answered your questions leaving no grey areas.
The population of Anatolia was approximately 10 million in 1914 and about 18 million in the entire Ottoman empire. Armenians were easily 20% of the overall population of Anatolia, about the same number as those identified as Turks. So, Armenians were not really a minority group at all.
As for Israel, a country where those who supposedly uphold the moral values of the nation (the ultra-religious), regularly spit on members of the Armenian clergy, no one should be surprised that the genocide has not been officially recognized. Add to that the oddly close links between the Young Turks and the Zionists, the overall message that Armenians should turn church owned property over to Jews and the standard view of Armenians as Palestinians, what can you expect? Harout is right – they’ve had 60 years of statehood wherein they could have offered Armenians some tiny shred of recognition, but they chose – they consciously chose – not to. If it is true that they are asking for political favors in exchange for recogition, I would only say again….no one should be surprised. Clearly, if that is true, they are telling us that everything has a price and nothing comes for free….no matter how moral it might be. I’m already disgusted just thinking about the fact that they would use the genocide to advance their political goals. And, who will actually pay the price? Armenians, of course. No Armenian should take the bait….because it is a trap. Let’s face facts, call a spade a spade. If anyone attempted to do this with the Holocaust, the sacred Holocaust…all hell would break loose. Yet, they feel free to do that with the genocide? It just shows their underlying contempt because we will be left holding the bag, and they know it.
There is a consensus that the population of Ottoman empire by the year of the Armenian Genocide was about 18 to 20 million people. But never have I read or heard that Armenians could be “easily” 20% of the overall population of the empire. If it was so, then the total number of Armenians would be around 4 mln people. Neither the figures of the Patriarchate in Constantinople nor the distorted Turkish census in 1914 not any genocide scholar and historian—Armenian, Turkish, or foreign—ever suggested that Armenians numbered 4 mln in the Ottoman empire.
RVDV,
On a separate note. Don’t you think that your attempts to soften and even ennoble the image of Turks—Seljuk, Ottoman, Ittihadist, or Kemalist—when posting at the Armenian forum are outlandish? Our great- and grandparents saw the barbarity of your ilk in 1894-96 and 1915-1923. Don’t you think that whatever you have to say about Turks may be disregarded, because you deal with people whose relatives witnessed firsthand and were victims of Turkish savagery? It’ like saying to a victim of armed robbery or rape or attempted murder that, you know, your robber or rapist or murderer is not a bad man. Who would listen to you?
” Don’t you think that your attempts to soften and even ennoble the image of Turks—Seljuk, Ottoman, Ittihadist, or Kemalist..”
Where have I done anything remotely close to this?
“It’ like saying to a victim of armed robbery or rape or attempted murder that, you know, your robber or rapist or murderer is not a bad man.”
No its like saying the great grandchildren of your great grandparent’s murderer may not be bad people.
If the great grandchildren of my great grandparents’ murderers are not bad people, they need to show this through apology and repentance, not denial and distortion.
“Where have I done anything remotely close to this?”
It is in your comments. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Talin: You’re obviously new here, I have nothing to prove to you. You think I’m a denialist, go ahead. The sun will rise and shine again tomorrow. Life won’t end for me.
RVDV;
It;s my understanding that the Ottomans were moslem. Are you saying that you are now a muslim?
What’s the difference between the two?
On the issue of population, Anatolia (today’s geographic Turkey) needs to be viewed differently than the entire Ottoman Empire. Let’s make that distinction, because only by doing that can you see the facts accurately. The Armenian population was concentrated in the six eastern vilayets of Anatolia, where they amounted to 50% or more of the population during the entire period of Ottoman rule.. If you look at the entire empire, that had millions of Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians, Christian Arabs, Jews, and the ‘Turks’ were a decided minority, who, as professor Howard Sachar writes, sat on the conquered peoples ‘like an octopus’. They ran the military and certain functions of government, but most of the commerce, farming, industry, medicine, architecture, stonemasonry, science, etc. practiced in the empire were all in the hands of the Christian minorities, who by the way, paid all the taxes that kept the whole machine well oiled and in running condition. No matter what anyone says or thinks, the symbiosis that developed over a thousand years allowed the ruling classes to reap the rewards created by their subject peoples, who worked very hard on behalf of their masters. After all, it was their country, their land originally, for thousands of years before Turks arrived, so they never thought that would change, least of all by outright theft, murder and pillage. All that aside, we still must ask why, at this point in time, Israel would be so interested in our genocide, after decades of catering to Turkey and acting as their water boy? As in all crminal cases, it pays to follow the money….maybe someone could track down all the financial dealings between the two countries during the last 60 years. I’m sure something interesting will be revealed.
The point of contention was the percentage of Armenian population in the ENTIRE Ottoman Empire, not the Anatolian or Balkan or Middle Eastern part of it. By all accounts, Armenians numbered around 10 percent.
I often wonder whether these articles are based on any logical analysis and have any practical value. We seem to perpetuate our infatuation with personal preferences rather than testing our analysis against hard facts that promote thinking of alternatives and potential measures to move our case forward . I am truly disappointed that instead of articulating pan-Armenian positions we are still at the stage of intellectual “constipation”.Sorry, friends, for my French !
Hamasdegh
Constipation infers blockage. That’s exactly what Israel, The United States and The United Kingdom have succeeded in feeding the Armenians. You would see a miraculous break in the log jam once any one of the 3 does the right thing. Armenia has been a pawn for far too long and not of its own doing. Meanwhile, the shadows over Armenia are growing longer.
Dear DJ:
Our frustration stems partly from the fact that we are unable to influence those on whom we count . In my opinion, we must free ourselves from the dependence of the goodwill of powers you mention and rely more on getting the job done by ourselves ( in all its aspects) . What we are enaged in in terms of obtaining justice, restitution and compensation requires effort, money,persistence, long term planning and determination, the hard core elements of professional approach and organization. It is unfortunate that the management of Armenian affairs ( with very limited exceptions) is left in the hands of part time well intentioned persons whose dedication I admire, but question their competence and limited focus.Being smart means being able to marshall all your resources and directing them towards your goal.We are far from that situation as yet. While we need intellectual stimulus, we also need people who can deliever, otherwise just imagine what will happen: more of the same in coming years.
Turkish synonyms:
Ottomam/Turk
Moslem/Muslim
Sultan/President
Istanbul/Constatinople
Erzerum/Garin
Ararat/
Talin get it through your head that the 1929 “Turkey” census which used the same borders that exist today, showed a population of 13.6 million. These figures are from the Turkish Gov’t. The genocide occurred within Turkey’s present day borders. Here is the official site!
http://www.turkstat.gov.tr/Start.do;jsessionid=1TJDPjvbZF868SQJM0JnnMmj2dcqv9LkCy1xDsCYVC5Hm7qP83NJ!-275451676
The logical conclusion, again, is that in 1915 within the borders of present day Turkey Armenians made up approx 20%.
Darwin,
In between of 1914 and 1929 many things changed in Turkey population-wise. Here I agree with RVDV that there were WWI losses plus virtually all Christian minorities were eradicated by the time when or immediately after the Turkish Republic was established. I think I understand your point. It may be said that within the borders of present day Turkey Armenians made up approx 20% in the pre-genocide years. But the official state formation in 1914 was not within the borders of present day Turkey. It was the Ottoman Empire that spread across Asia Minor to the Middle East and Southern Europe. Again, by all accounts the population of the Ottoman Empire was 18-20 million in 1914. Armenians, numbering 2-2.2 mln, therefore, constituted roughly 10 percent of the entire population. What are we debating here?
Darwin: yet again you fail to take in consideration factors such as forced migrations of ethnic groups of Armenians, Turkish army losses (800k or so) and Turkish civilians who died in WW1 (mainly Spanish Flu) who number at about 2 million. Populations do not constantly increase, they stagnate and decrease as well. Not only is your conclusion yet again illogical it also is irrelevant. I agree with Talin- what are we discussing? A percentage is a percentage. 2 million people murdered is still far too many whether they make up 1% or 50%.
Correction: Forced migration of ethnic groups such as Greeks not Armenians- several hundred thousand sent to Greece.
RVDV:
the new avatar/icon you are now using looks like the coat of arms double-eagle of Russia: the crosses are clearly visible on the crowns.
Given your ethnic background and your religion, what’s the connection using a Russian/Christian avatar ?
Are you signalling that you want to come over to our side ?
RVDV, I really like your avatar. Care to explain its origins and symbolism?
Thanks.
Avery: I saw that the Seljuk Turks adopted the double headed eagle from the Byzantines, and decided to go with it. Regarding the crown and cross, I’m not what you’d call religious, I just thought it looked better with the crown. I’m not coming over to your side, but I see no reason why I shouldn’t appreciate elements of your side.
Alex: I read it goes back as far as the Hittites, but for the Byzantines and the Holy Roman Empire I think it stood for church and state.
As almost everything else in the Turkic culture, the double-headed eagle, too, has been stolen from other civilizations. This originally Byzantine coat of arms has become the standard of the Seljuk Turks with the crowning of Tugrul Beg in the 11th century and was used until the 13th century. The Turkish police today are said to have a double-headed eagle in their insignia, as has the Atatürk University and several football clubs.
a different perspective
I think Israel’s public position becomes clearer once one understands that Turkey was blackmailing its Jewish community for support, and Israel’s reluctance to push Turkey into the Arab camp. That Turkey remained insular and not interested in geopolitics beyond it’s own borders worked in everyone’s favour.
Contrast this with the less public support of Yad V’Shem, funded by the Israeli government and Jewish Holocaust scholars for supporting research and publication of Armenian and Assyrian material related to the genocides.
See: http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/Announcements/Press%20Release%20-%20Model%20Citizens%20of%20the%20State.pdf