PARIS, France (A.W.)–Fearing French legislators will approve a bill on Dec. 22 criminalizing the denial of the Armenian Genocide, and rendering it punishable with a fine of 45,000 euros ($58,000), Turkey has threatened to recall its ambassador from France and strain ties.
- For Davutoglu, fighting genocide denial “is the mentality of the Middle Ages. The adoption of this mindset in France is the greatest danger to Europe.”
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu likened the move as one from the Middle Ages. “If this proposal is legislated, France will pioneer the return of the Middle Ages mindset to Europe,” Anatolia News Agency quoted him as saying. The law would “create a new dogma about understanding history, to forbid alternative thoughts. This is the mentality of the Middle Ages. The adoption of this mindset in France is the greatest danger to Europe.”
What is, blatantly, genocide denial and an insult to the victims and their descendants is consistently portrayed by the Turkish government as an issue of freedom of speech.
Addressing his government officials, Davutoglu said it would be “out of the question to leave unanswered an attempt by any country leader, government, or parliament to dishonor our country and nation.”
“There will be irreparable consequences in all bilateral relations,” the undersecretary of the Turkish ambassador to Paris, Engin Solakoglu, told AFP. He said the proposed law was a “hostile act” and that “all cooperation with the French government, all joint projects, will be frozen.”
A special delegation of Turkish officials will reportedly arrive in Paris on Dec. 19 to prevent the bill from passing.
In 2001, France adopted a bill officially recognizing the 1915 events as genocide. Most historians, including the International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS), recognize the Armenian Genocide.
Turkey considers the term “genocide” as an attack on its national integrity, and aims to present the Armenian Genocide as a debatable segment of history, repeatedly arguing that the matter “should be left for historians to discuss.”
This is bizarre. Turkey should just admit to genocide, make reparations to Armenia on behalf of all Armenians and put an end to all this ridiculous political posturing and denial. Let history stand and move on.
I hope the French will stand with moral courage and let the pieces fall where they may.
Boyajian: I agree completely with everything you said, but….. Using courage and France in the same sentence is hilarious :)..
I know, I know, it’s childish- just trying to lighten up the mood.
Davutoglu appears to suffer from delusions of imperialism as he continually sends “his special delegation of Turkish officials” around the world, threatening one country afteranother with “irreparable consequences in all bilateral relations.” He is unable to comprehend that there is nothing more for historians to debate. The vast majority of independent thinking, internationally acclaimed historians long ago acknowledged the Armenian Genocide. Literally thousands of papers have been published acknowledging Turkey’s culpability in the mass murder of its Christian citizens. And some of the writers who dared to voice their findings of genocide are languishing in Turkish jails for “insulting turkishness.” And some have been murdered.
the myth of lack of courage of the French can be addressed in another more appropriate thread. However, Turks who look down on the French and who still harbor illusions of their own allegedly superior martial ability and invincibility should carefully read what one of their own said recently:
{Two [PKK] guys can appear and scare away 30 soldiers. This is a scandal. One soldier opens fire after seeing a shadow; others start firing at random and shoot one of our own in the forehead. Our situation is shameful.}
Turk Chief of Staff Gen. Koşaner’s said that.
Is the usage of the word “courage” and “Turkey” in one sentence not hilarious, RVDV? How much “courage” do you think it took for your armed Turkish male ancestors to slaughter, mutilate, torture, rape, burn and bury alive unarmed Armenian women, children, and elders?
Armenians are irrelevant in this issue. There is a political game between Turkey and France about issues like the EU, Libya, Arab Spring. France wanted to use Armenians to gain some political advantage but I don’t think they will be able to do so.
I am so sick of Turkish delegation and Turkish govt trying to stop anything that deals with the Genocide.. GET OVER IT, ADMIT IT and RECOGNIZE IT ALONG WITH REPARATIONS and stop this nonsense.. such a childish act by the Turkish govt..
Tell us again why you are all so terrified of the establishment of the Historical Commission? We already know, but do tell us anyway!
Tell us Robert, why is Turkey so afraid to admit the truth?
Bingo Boyajian jan.. yes tell us Robert the Turk.. why is Turkey so afraid to admit the truth????
We oppose the Historical Commission, Robert, for the following reasons:
1. The framing of it as “Armenian versus Turkish ‘points of view’” presents the false idea of a two-sided conflict. The genocide was not a conflict between two warring sides that both engaged in effective resistance. There were murderers and there were victims. Creating a historical commission of “two sides” reinforces this sinister revisionistic perspective–that of two sides, of two “competing narratives,” which suggests an even playing field. Armenians were not a “side” to this conflict–they were victims.
2. The Super Committee in Congress failed. Outside observers look at its failure and say, “Well, what can we do, the system as a whole is broken.” Whereas the reason for the failure was complete obstinacy and sabotage by one side. The exact same will happen with this commission, because Turkish historians are forbidden by their own law of calling the genocide a genocide. Therefore, the commission will produce no outcome, thus generating the illusion to all outside observers that the situation is “inconclusive” and no judgment can be made.
3. While the commission is ‘operating’, the rest of the world will use the excuse of ‘wait and see’ and avoid telling the truth about the genocide. Case in point: Barack Obama.
4. Think of the moral precedent this sets. It suggests that if one side perpetuating a lie yells loud enough and denies for long enough, then we always have to humor them with “historical commissions.” Why don’t we create a historical commission with Iran and neo-Nazis on one side, and Jews on the other, about the Holocaust? There are many White supremacists who feel that slavery was in fact good for blacks. Why don’t we create a historical commission to discuss this? As Israel Charny says, we are essentially perverting science to produce a state of know-nothingness.
I hope I was clear. I look forward to your thoughtful and respectful response.
Berch, you say: “Is the usage of the word “courage” and “Turkey” in one sentence not hilarious.”
You make yourself look ridiculous. Yes, let’s grant the Genocide did occur. But this does nto mean that the Turkish nation is incapable of courage. You cannot define the Turkish nation of over 1000 years of vast empire based on the events of one year, 1915. You don’t go around building large empires by being a coward (the opposite of being courageous). I know I know you hate Turks with your guts. But don’t let your hatred blind you to simple facts. Else you make yourself look silly
Same old criminals ans the same old tactics!
Avery
You always pick one word from somebody and assume that is correct in every circumstances.the security foces killed at least tm PKK members on a mountain yesterday appearantly without any loss.WEre they killed by the random fires of the Army? I am not proud that these Pkk members killed but what can you do if they take arms and kill your citiziens and soldiers
Avery
The number of the PKK members killed in a clash Was going to be 20
Berch: About the same amount of courage it takes to talk big on the internet….. There are many positive steps being taken towards genocide recognition. I made a joke about the French- calm down.
i think Turkey must send 60-100 Thousands illegal Armenian back to great Armenia if the bill of shame passes.
just because we are bad, no need to feed them. They will be happier in Armenia. Maybe shorty sarkozy will open his home to illegal workers..do you think so?
Kerim and RVDV, you must distinguish Armenian criticism of Turkey the nation with criticism of individual Turks. You are becoming confused and defensive. Turkey the nation is not courageous about facing her history, but many individual Turks and Kurds have been very courageous.
And Necati, I don’t know where you received your education, but I would ask for a refund. You were swindled.
at least the French found the courage to acknowledge the genocide in 2011. What are the American authorities scared of???????????????
Kerim– I agree with Berch 100%.. There is no courage in murdering, raping, burning, pulling out eyes and nails, buring people alive, looting, stealing, NOOOOOO this is not courage you talk about… This is COWARDLY acts by your ancestors… so instead of talking about TUrkey and courage as one word, i would think twice because you are embarassing yourself trying to make the picture colorful when it is deem and cold and dark… get over yourselves and realize your country is nothing but a coward.. especially when it has been denying the factual events and the truth for almost 100 years.. do you call this courage?? wow..
John The TUrk– how inconvenient for you that PKK is showing resistence and yes and killing.. what did you expect?? you nationalist just love to b*(#$*(* and complain about everything else but when it comes to your dirty deeds, you act like angels.. such hypocracy… cry me the river…
Necati– i would just tell you just keep your mouth closed.. anything you say or do will be voided and thrown out of the discussion forum ..because we don’t really care what you say: aka rude lying denialist.. those Armenians that are left in Turkey are legaly on their rightful lands.. don’t go around talking big because one day you won’t have those lands to boast about.. because those lands did nt belong to you in the first place…
RVDV— you should know better being a history major.. that such topics as Genocide and such forums where you are dealing with the descendents of victims, there is no room for jokes.. i am sorry but you are beginning to lose my respect… not that you care but little by little I am beginning to look at you as another closet denialist who tries his best to belong but comes off very arrogant and inconsistent from time to time…just my observation.. my apologies if mistaken.
Kerim: that’s what I’m saying. One event shouldn’t define a peoples history.
Turkey’s Disclaimer, slavishly reproduced by world media: The following are only 6 from the hundreds that have appeared in the last decade. Ankara is always given the last word. Is this a random occurrence based on individual journalistic judgement or a pattern carefully maintained, monitored and enforced by Ankara? It is clearly the latter. We will soon see how powerful Ankara is in France, from whom Davutoglu has stolen the sparkling crown of the Enlightenment to place on his own head while heroic prisoners of conscience languish in Turkish jails. Meanwhile I can only dream of the day Ankara faces its responsibility for the Armenian Genocide, for that is the day these tiresome and insincere disclaimers will suddenly disappear forever from the pages of the world press.
=========================
Deutsche Welle April 24, 2005
Armenians say up to 1.5 million of their kinsmen perished in orchestrated killings between 1915 and 1917 as the Ottoman Empire, the predecessor of modern Turkey, was falling apart.
Ankara counters that 300,000 Armenians and thousands of Turks were killed in “civil strife” during World War I when the Armenians rose against their Ottoman rulers and sided with invading Russian troops.
========================
“Europe” msnbc.com Aug. 31, 2009
One of the biggest disputes between the neighboring countries is over the World War I-era massacre of up to 1.5 million Armenians in the last days of the Ottoman Empire, which historians widely regard as the first genocide of the 20th century. Turkey denies that the deaths constituted genocide, contending the toll has been inflated and that the casualties were victims of civil war.
========================
AP April 24, 2011
Historians estimate that up to 1.5 million Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks around the time of World War I. Turkey denies that the deaths constituted genocide, contending the figures are inflated and those killed were victims of civil war and unrest as the Ottoman Empire collapsed
========================
The Telegraph (UK) Dec. 20, 2011
Armenians claim that as many as 1.5 million of their ancestors were killed between 1915 and 1923 in an organised campaign to eradicate them from eastern Turkey. The Turkish government fiercely denies a genocide, saying that hundreds of thousands of Turks and Armenians died in a civil war
========================
The Seattle Times April 24, 2011
Many historians believe 1.5 million Armenians died in a campaign of deportation and murder. However, Turkish leaders contend the figures are inflated, saying there were many deaths on both sides as the Ottoman Empire collapsed during World War I.
=======================
BBC Dec. 20, 2011
Armenians say up to 1.5 million people died during mass deportations. Turkey puts the figure at closer to 300,000.
Ankara says Turks were also killed when Armenians rose up against the Ottoman Empire during World War I when Russian troops invaded eastern Anatolia, now eastern Turkey.
No dear Avery,
One soldier being shot on forehead(above post ) is not indicative of the huge Turkish armed forces.Please do not underestimate their might.All military sources experts testify that theirs is the largest8if not the most efficient9 army after the U.S. one in NATO.
Well this side of the ocean nothing is mentioned of the Russian one,which again is not to be underestimated. None the less, we Armenians MUST,especially must realize that we ARE NEXT DOOR neighbours with great Turkey…
Oh by the by I wish you and all to know ,why I add adjective great to R.of TurkeyNo it is not for mocking, not really.THEY ARE, just like great Britian(which BTW, lately is quotted as U.K..There is some similarity between the two…
PREVIOOUS EMPIRES…become, GREAT…WHAT THE FUTURE HOLDS THEM?
just hinted at instead a new name ..such as United Kingdom(compriosed of Wales, Scotland and England) R.of great Turkey, likewise comprisesd of some 30% k u r d s (previously dubbed a s mountain turks-did not work-So you see, while I do admit their being as great….I also point out changes talking place…
Now then…Necati above has -very naturally-passsed on the Franco American ¨pressure applying policy¨ to us Armenian, when he does same with Armenians who went for work to Istanublla, thus ,alleviating his KHERS ,(wrath)like an exhaust pipe to Armenians.
We ought to learn to withstand such hints-threats as well as they do.
This will pass too.They will somehow get over it.I wrote else where here on the Forum that the French Law(even if it passes Sentae) is not really a LOSS to great Turkey.
Their nationals or pro Turks willsimply refrain from even mentioing word Armenian ,let alone deny the Genocide…Voila, case resolves and dismisssed to LOSS to them.
latter is the worst nightmare.The Yankee one is really bothersome!!! for it bodes loss of materiel!!!(which again if my dear friend NECATI seriously begin to think over and ponder. THOSE CHURCHES OR SCHOOLS HOSPITAL WERE NOT TURKISH MADE.They did not spend PENNY IN CONSTRUCTING THESE..Land on whioch built?
they know that even that is not was not owned by them,SO WHAT THE HECK???
tHEY WILL NOT WORRY.Fact is they ought to be assured by people like me that we do not want and cannot think it possible to get anyTHING LIKE THE GERMANS paying cash, PARA, MONEY to the victims…
Hence, They will be alleviated,especially as I have thought of something that will really bring us two neighbours together….
ABove,will be resolved as described church school etc., but YAVASH YAVASH…The Anglo-Ams and Franks know their character too!!!
As to BLOOD MONEY OF OUR PEOPLE SLAUGHTERED….that is another issue.
i have thought of the easy money so to say,,that great Turkey receives from the Transit Duties of OIL passing through their Turkey.In this those latter companies did not ,were not JUST ,the shortest Route was via Armenia…
So they ought to consider and CONVINCE great Turkey that when Their respective countreis Great Britain and the USA officailly Declare that Genocide occurred or extra officially like the Congress and French Congress has done, then a part a percentage %%%%% of the transit duties ought to perpetually be paid to Armenians!!!
No Turkish treasury paying us !!!! fact of the matter is the US and French insurance companies have paid to the Armenian victims(who did not die in their beds)))))
Voila!
Robert The Turk and the rest,
The most reason Armenians are against Historical Commission, is not because of the truth of Genocide, it is Turkish Government, who like to debate with the help of their “paid scholars” attorneys, in order to drag people’s minds away from Armenian Genocide, blame Russian army, Kurds, or British or…..people like you are sick in the head for not accepting the truth of Armenian Genocide. The more, Turks like you, deny their ancestral committed crimes, the more innocent new Turkish generation get deeper into mud…just like a 4 legged trapped pig, in a muddy water, Mr. Davood Oghlu crying for help!!
Kerim –
Ridiculous and silly is to state, however jokingly, that the great French nation is incapable of courage. My response to RVDV’s comment didn’t say that “the Turkish nation is incapable of courage”. It was based on the most shameful event in the history of your nation, because it relates to the saddest episode in the history of my people. Such ugly events add to defining any nation, especially Turkish, because it is by means of brutal nomadic invasions, destruction, looting, adaptation of cultural traits of indigenous peoples, their colonization, and mass murder, have the Turks built their ill-fated empire. For you, this may be “grandeur”; for the native inhabitants, this was destruction. For you, slaughtering women and children en masse is “courage”; for the native inhabitants, it was the utmost cowardice.
You say you know(?!) I “hate” Turks. Have I told you this when we met at the Christian Cathedral of Hagya Sophia in Byzantine Constantinople? Your countryman stated: “using ‘courage’ and France’ in one sentence is hilarious”. Did you deplore him for hating the French?
The French found the courage to acknowledge the Armenian genocide in 2001, not 2011. As for the American authorities, they’re not scared. Of whom? Turkey, for Christ sake? The U.S. authorities know that their acknowledgment will effectively mean the end of the Kemalist experiment. Not yet…
RVDV –
I thought you said you made a joke about the French, graciously wishing me to calm down. But now you seriously say to Kerim: “that’s what I’m saying. One event shouldn’t define a people’s history.” Are you now serious? If you are, then be aware that I at least based my statement: “Is the usage of the word ‘courage’ and ‘Turkey’ in one sentence not hilarious?” on the events of mass extermination of the Armenians by the Turks. What “one event” did you “jokingly” base your statement: “Using courage and France in the same sentence is hilarious”? Or you used it to define the French nation in general? Do you hate the French, RVDV?
And Necati, I don’t know where you received your education, but I would ask for a refund. You were swindled.
Boyajian,
I graduated from a school of a warrior nation that set up 21 empires in 3 continents of the world….
I never lived under other’s rule
I am superior..
Look up in the sky when it gets dark. you will see my moon.
and you?
Grish,
You are right about Turkey using paid scholars:
in 1985, Turkey bought full-page advertisements in The New York Times, The Washington Post and The Washington Times to publish a letter questioning the Armenian genocide that was signed by 69 American scholars. All 69 had received funding that year from the Institute for Turkish Studies or another of Turkey’s surrogates like the Ankara Chamber of Commerce, a quasi-governmental agency in Turkey’s capital city.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2008/summer/state-of-denial
Well said Berch jan…
Necati Bey:…. the moon in the sky belongs to ALL mankind.. you are what is wrong with today’s Turkey.. guess you are the true descendent of your nomadic and blood thirsty ancestors…
Necati,
I know you love your cold raki and melon, sitting on a ottoman, moon on top, and star on your lap, waiting for a new pray to catch, what a romantic combination an “educated Turk” like you can have…you have a new dream to become like an Altai mountain warrior again, of course with the help of Allah!! Go back where you come from and teach them how your warrior ancestors did to Christian civilization of Byzantine and Armenian Highlands in Asia Minor…
Necati, I received my early education at the knee of a noble man and the lap of a gracious woman who believed in the lessons of great writers, scientists and statesmen. Multiple languages were spoken in my home and my extended family included adopted aunts and uncles who originated from as far away as China and South America, and whose families took the place of my distant “real’ relatives in Armenia and Europe. I learned at a young age the richness of mixing with people from many backgrounds and the wonders of God’s multicultural world. My proper schooling was at fine public and private institutions that broadened my mind to value truth and justice over personal pride. I love my faith and my people but don’t see them as superior to even yours, although you are giving yours a bad name. Look up in the sky and you will see the sun which rises and sets over everyone equally. Look into my eyes and heart and you will see the Son who came to free all of the burden of sin, even you.
Gary, thanks for that link. Very informative.
Robert, we Armenians do not fear the truth coming out, but we do fear Turkish lies. That is why we have no interest in giving platform to more lies by conducting historical commissions as if there are two sides to this story. There is not. The Ottoman/CUP government set into motion policies that expunged the Christian population from its historic homeland. Do a head count. The numbers from before and after WWI tell the story.
Once again Turkey interferes with democracy and internal affairs in other countries. Why? It needs to suppress and deny the truth.
And that’s why a Historical Commission with paid liars on it is a joke and a slur on the truth of history.
Berch- I do not hate the French. I do not hate Armenians. I do not hate anyone.
No the usage of courage and Turkey is not hilarious. Don’t just think of Turks as the Ottoman Empire. The usage of French and cowardly was just a joke- is a bigger bad a– in the world then Napoleon? Yes, I agree 100% with you that the Armenian genocide is the most shameful chapter in Turkish history. But the genocide shouldn’t come to define Turkish people as a whole. Like I have said before, I am sorry for what happened, I wish there was a way it could be taken back. I wish my government would recognize it so the over 1 million Armenians murdered can rest a little bit easier. I say that with all sincerity- but don’t let Turkey= Armenian butchers. We have so much more to offer the world than that.
1895 about 300,000 Armenians massacred
1909 about 30,000 Armenians massacred
1915-1923 estimated 1.5 million Armenians massacred.
Dersim massacre: estimates of 30,000 (by Turks) to 100,000 (by Alevis/Kurds).
An unknown number of victims were converted Armenians, who had survived the prior waves of exterminations and had escaped to Dersim.
‘over 1 million Armenians murdered’
No, close to 2 million Armenians murdered.
RVDV —
Of course, genocide shouldn’t come to define the Turkish people as a whole. But it certainly adds up to defining your people in the context of historical mistreatment of the indigenous inhabitants of the lands with which Turks have become associated only in the 11th century AD. You conveniently single out the genocide of 1915 in an attempt to render it as an exception—not a rule—to the gross misbehavior of the Turks. Yet, for Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, and the Jews, it only adds up to defining your nation, because it’s just the most shameful chapter in the chain of other chapters: brutal nomadic invasion of the Seljuks, destruction of the local populations, wide-spread looting and desecration of cultural monuments, adaptation of cultural traits of the locals, their subjugation and colonization, and their ultimate forced deportation and mass murder. If you still concentrate only on 1915, then be so kind to explain where the massacres of Armenians in 1894-96 by Abdulhamid and mass burnings of Armenians in 1922 by Kemal stand in defining your nation. If one chapter doesn’t define your nation, do three or more chapters fulfill the task?
RVDV- what did or does Turkey offer to the world again? I am sorry I must have missed where TUrkey gave everyone the world known scientists, the world known actors/actresses, the world known historians, politicians, world known businessmen, the world known sportsmen, rich culture, rich history, music, arts………….. what did Turkey produce on her own that was not solen from other indigeneous populace… please enlighten me.. who really knows who it means to be a TUrk in the world arena except a govt/country that is wealthy with the money they stole from my ancestors and other Christian nations, the world’s worst human right violators, freedom of speech nd religion butchers, etc…etc….
I do apologize for bursting your bubble but please don’t come here and preach us that WE, the ARMENIANS are saying ALL TURKS on this planet are butchers… NO ONE said such a thing so I would suggest you STOP referring to us with such a tone..We are referring to OTTOMANS.. and yes OTTOMANS DOES EQUAL ARMENIAN BUTCHERS.. including Necati.. he is no difference than what his ancestors were…….
and again.. do not joke about such things knowing very well this is not a place to joke…
Boyajian jan.. well said my dear.. well said..
Berch and Avery jan– great facts and questions … apreq…
It is disturbing to me when a Turk/Kurd conveniently forget what happened BEFORE 1915 … it is like they pick and choose their stories to fit their bill but unfortunately the world powers allowed Turkey to do and say whatever they want up until recent years where little by little (very painfully slow) they are turning the tides and demanding Turkey to stop acting like a hysterical child… Turkey will come with terms what happened and what they are doing to continue the White Genocide .. the sooner they get with the program the better for them because the clock is kicking and the interest % is rising…
It doesn’t look as though “the boys” are very welcome in France. following is from Hurriyet:
French hotel denies Turkish delegation a conference room
A hotel in France cancelled a reservation by a Turkish delegation for a conference room without offering any reason for cancellation, private broadcaster NTV reported on its website.
The delegation was made up of prominent representatives of the Turkish Union of Chambers and Commodities Exchanges (TOBB) and the Turkish Industry & Business Association (TÜSİAD). They were travelling to France to campaign against a French motion criminalizing the denial of Armenian genocide claims.
The room reserved for the delegation in the Intercontinental Le Grand Hotel was cancelled last minute by hotel management due to unavailability, but reports hinted at mounting political pressure on the hotel management as the underlying cause.
The delegation immediately cancelled all bookings at Le Grand and moved to Paris Hilton Hotel instead. The event was moved instead to the Turkish Consulate General building in Paris.
Deniers of A Human Rights
For all liars on this side
For people who want to mask their criminals
for Hearts made of rocks
never can pulsate for the human rights
Any one of you did not hear…Let them hear…
That the genderma use to come and count residents in each Armenian home and put another genderma on the door, that no one can escape and put them in the carts sending early
morning before their first prayer
either throwing them in hole or to desert Der-zor…
This my grandmother Zaruhi use to say
And her husband family vanished this way
Lawyer Natiq Afandi (Garabed Dabaghian)
His name is in Ottomans books…
I can’t forget my grandmother’s tears
I see her in my dreams
Her tears still never dried on my face….
Who were the genderma
They were not Turkish forwarded from Ottoman government…?
Were they space men
or they were criminals
arrived to end Armenian genes
See your self in your Turkish mirrors
How can you lay and lie
and walk on innocents blood
with your feet and ugly pride…
You like to end more of our artful genes
Shame on every one who denies
I never call you humans…
Sylva
dear friends,
one good thing about the ridiculous French proposal to outlaw genocide denial is that it reminded the Norwegian people about the Armenian cause. I was on the national TV and emphasized the responsibility of the Turkish government at the time and of the catastrophy that befell the Ottoman Armenians. I also shortly voiced my doubt on the traditional genocide recognition strategy. Unfortunately the Norwegian commentators were more interested in the issue of French political manuevering, and the time allotted for anybody to say anything is dismally small. Seasons greetings to all of you
Dear “friend” Ragnar naess.. aka.. Turkophile in denial…..( JUST MY OWN OPINION)..
Do you also think that Turkey’s Article 301 is also ridiculeous? it is after all a law that punishes, inprisons and fines those who dare to mention the word Genocide or “insult” Turkishness.. and to this day i dont’ know what the hell does this mean…. if so, how come you did not mention that on the Norwegian national TV???
Your “friend” .. you know the one you always LOVE to chastize and critize… :)
Turkey is the next Greece !!! live and see.
ragnar naess —
There are many good things about the French bill, and Norway—with all due respect for Norwegian humanitarians who witnessed the consequences of the Turkish barbarity in 1920s—is a minor player on the world arena in terms of decision-making on the issue.
Are French, Norwegians and other EU member states’ bills criminalizing the genocide of the Jews also ‘ridiculous’?
Merry Christmas to us all.
“dear” “friend” Ragnar, while you were on Norwegian national TV, did you also remind them that you said this on a prominent Turkish national distribution news site :
{There is a real debate on whether a genocide occurred.}(Rangar Naess @Hurriyet 2011-9-12)’ ?
Did you also remind them that you have appeared side-by-side with notorious AG Denialist Justin McCarthy, promoting his Denialist views ?
your “dear friend” Avery.
Merry Christmas.
Opppsss Ragnar can run but he can’t hide huh Avery jan? Thank you for reminding everyone that Ragnar is not someone who can be trusted nor can be taken seriously.. as he has MANY flaws when it comes to Armenian Genocide and what truly happened.. he does not believe it and will never believe it…
Justin Mc Carty is wrong,
Bernard Lewis is wrong
C.F. Dixon is wrong
Henry R. Huttenbach is wrong
Ragnar Naess is wrong
Everyone is wrong
I am wrong,
Only armenians are right!
Necati.. YES of course you are wrong.. and YES the lame and embarassing list of unreliable and denialists people you listed above ARE WRONG… that is no news.. that is old news… and YES Armenians have the RIGHT information unlike your denialists govt and people like you.. your point????
gayane
if given more time I would certainly have said that official Turkey and the majority of Turkish historians are far from adressing the issue in any honest way, becauae they really do not adress the issue at all. This is a part of the problems with democracy in Turkey of which the para 301 of course is a part.
Ragnar.. you did not need more time.. that particular matter should have been one of the FIRST things you could have brought forth while you were on your national TV.. what is more ridiculeous law than Article 301….???.. but you did not..
Avery
yes I said that, it is part of my doubt about the traditional genocide recognition strategy. I pointed out that the great moral responsibility of the CUP is much more clearcut than assertions of existence of a program for extermination about which there is a disagreement.
301 is none of your business. we are happy with that. If not in future, it can be changed in the democratic system.
Gayane
You know nothing about the article 301 and the details but bashing at Turkey. Yes the prosecutors tried to bring charges against Orhan Pamuk by using this Law however, they failed and the court had a different idea so It is absolutely stupid and ridiculous to talk about a law that actually failed to charge people. I today witnessed today 3 Turkish Armenian speaking with Turkish TV and supporting genocide theses. If this law has been successfully used against people supporting genocide claims, trust me they wouldn’t speak openly in public. You also support what France is trying to do but at the same time bashing Turkey based on your falsified information. What a hypocrite you are. You really deserved a refund from your university. Please do not try pass my last sentence on to me as I am not a graduate
Necati Pasha.. if 301 is non our business.. then why the hell do you make your business what French do.. why don’t you stay out of other’s business.. but you can’t do that can you? hypocrites usually can’t stay away…..
John the Turk- do YOU KNOW anything about the Armenian Genocide and what your barbaric ancestors did to our ancestors??? you don’t have to be a graduate from the university..all one needst o have is a brain of their own and a heart..
Also, please stop this cry me the river with your “i have seen Turksih Armenians speaking out about Genocide without punishment..” really?? why don’t you give us a link to the tv channel where these Armenians openly spoke about the Armenian Genocide.. i am curious to see and hear that….
you are quick at critizing everyone else for speaking out the truth… hypocricy should not be directed to the Armenians who expose how wrong Turkey is .. but the hypocracy should be directed to the Turkish govt… but then again , hypocrites can’t admit their hypocracy can they????
Good Day sir…
Gayane
You are letting them get under your skin. Don’t give them an opportunity to have fun in your indignity. Don’t let them win. If there is any justice is this world, sooner or later the AG will be recognized and compensated for. For example, in 1999 a Turkish-Kurdish singer had his citizenship revoked because he wanted to make a music video for a Kurdish song. Today, there is a Kurdish TV channel on TRT- the STATE owned television station. That may not be a lot, but it shows that things are changing in Turkey for the better- don’t lose hope. Envision the day a Turkish PM apologizes for the AG and the look on the faces of all denialists on that day and don’t let them get to you. I don’t know you or Armenians in general at all, but I do know denialist Turks, don’t bring yourself to their level. Let them live in their world where Turkish people are “happy” with article 301. I hope you don’t let some delusioned nationalists on the internet represent Turkish people as a whole in your mind.
And speaking of Turkish TV, John, I saw a TV channel where the Armenian Genocide was openly discussed. Without warning, the show was cut and taken off the air by RTUK. There is a reason no one speaks out against the genocide in Turkey- they will end up in a “plot” like Ergenekon and be imprisoned for years without even knowing what they’re in jail for. I believe Turkey is second in the world for most journalists imprisoned, after either Russia or China. not sure.
john the Turk
the article 301 is a new version of the para 61 and 63 in the TCK, which was later taken into the para 7 of the anti-terrorist law which also was amended because it had a non-democratic definition of who was a terrorist. It is true that many people were aquitted, like Orhan pamuk, but Arat Dink and Serkis Seropian were given one year suspended sentences for printing an article of Hrant Dink. Ragip zarakolu is presently being tried. the 301 para thus is a problem in Turkey, or rather not the para itself which has counterparts in most cpountries, but the way it is used and interpreted. With its application in practice It is to my mind a symptom of the backward tendencies of Turkish society, against which liberal forces are fighting. If you heard three people yesterday supporting the genocide thesis in Turkish TV, very good. But let us wait and see if they will be prosecuted
Necati,
There are still “historians” who deny the Holocaust. A number of them were invited to Tehran by Mr. Ahmadinezjad last year for a conference on the denial of Holocaust, but that did not change the truth.
Against those smal bunch of denialist historians, there are hundreds of other more prominent hisorians and scientists, besides numerous governments and international bodies, who have established the fact of Genocide beyond doubt. I don’t have to name them as you should know them much better. And for your information, Bernard Lewis, the most notorious of the western denialists was already condmened by a French court back in 1993 for denying the Armenian Genocide and had to pay a symbolic sum of one dollar as penalty. He will now have to pay much more and take his time in prison if he does that again on Fench soil.
And your declaration: “I am superior”, among others, leaves the impresssion that we are dealing here with a psychopath rather than a normal person.
ragnar naess –
Compelled to repeat, since the question was left unanswered. If, as you contend, a bill criminalizing the denial of the Armenian genocide is ‘ridiculous’, were similar bills that criminalized the denial of the Jewish genocide by Norway and other EU member-states ridiculous, too?
Have audacity to answer this time.
Arshag,
I dont know who you are since you pop out recently.
My being superior is a historical fact not my claim. And yes, you armenians always failed to found an independent country. Modern Armenia is a gift to you Armenians from the colonist west. not conquered at the war fields.
“denialists was already condmened by a French court back in 1993 for denying the Armenian Genocide and had to pay a symbolic sum of one dollar as penalty”
i knew that french recognised Armenian geno-side in 2001…!!
the point is : if a court can penalize some one against his thoughts, then
we have the same right to punish someone for his thought insulting Turkish Nation according to 301.
NO ?
Then.. you are hypocrite …… as most of Armenians and shorty sarko are.
Necati- you don’t need to know who is who.. no one gave you that privliage.. this is an Armenian forum and any Armenian can post whenever they want.. stop your made up “superior” complex syndrome.. you are not that important.. trust me…
and for your stupid comment about if French can punish someone for their thoughts.. then as I said.. YOU ARE BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE Bey.. go bark at your govt’ s door.. they created 301 way before this law.. so guess your name calling is truly directed to yourself.. don’t you think???
Necati : I think Arshag has shown himself to be a level-headed thinker. You, on the other hand, often make statements that are so extreme in their bigotry that most here choose to ignore you as a bit of a ‘kook’. I have to admit that it is shocking how ‘in your face’ your hatred of Armenians is. I don’t blame you for loving your country and being a defender of your country, but you are blind to the truth because of it. It is time to open your eyes as a human being and accept that hatred and extreme national pride warped the minds of your ancestors and caused them to commit genocide.
I don’t hate you, and like most Armenians here, I recognize that Turks and Kurds living today are not personally guilty of genocide. But as a nation, you have a debt to pay to Armenia and to the world for the crimes of your ancestors. Truth is truth. A nation, or empire, or government cannot be allowed to carry out policies that lead to the murder of a particular ethnic group without facing consequences. Your nation agreed to this as a signatory to the UN Genocide Convention. Stop adding denial to these crimes.
You are so busy declaring your superiority, that you completely miss the fact that it is much more desirable to be equal—in rights, in respect and in humanity.
But you are right. You are superior—in bigotry.
{necati , 27 December 2011 ,
Again, Azerbaijan and Turkey must unite under same flag..! then will be a super power to fight gaymenian/sarko fascism.} (TodaysZaman)
{necati , 27 December 2011 ,
OKC, no one is fascist in MY country except YOU ,Orhan pamuk , PKK/BDP, and gaymenian lovers…and you miss Mesut Yılmaz’s speech he made today..you are a bad “gasteci”.}
(TodaysZaman. OKC refers to TZs Turk columnist Mr. Orhan Kemal CENGİZ)
VERY well said Boyajian jan.. especially the part “Necati you are right.. you are superior.. in bigortry”.. SOOOOOOO true..
Avery jan- thanks for sharing what Necati is soo fameous for.. and we still allow such animal post on our forums.. now that is what I call having patience and tolerance of these notorious messed up people…
I have for the second time noted that Necati Genis has referred to Sarkozy as being “shorty Sarko.” He has used the adjective in a derogatory way. When a person intuitively knows that they have no valid argument against another’s stronger position, they descend into name-calling based on physical appearance. Sarkozy has an internationally aclaimed, stunning, young beauty on his arm and in his bed. It would be most interesting to see what Necati has had to settle for.
Perouz, maybe it’s a man he has settled for. He seems to have an unusual obsession with gays.
Many overt homophobes have later turn out to have been gays themselves.
(“….not that there is anything wrong with it”, as Seinfeld and George used to say)
I call that insecurity on Necati part… you are absolutely correct in stating when one does feel defeated or has nothing constructive to say, they attack the opponent’s physical attributes.. Necat is one sorry individual…I wonder what his parents think of their genocidal son…
Gayane: I wonder what his parents think of their genocidal son…
They must be proud. Where do you think he learned it from?
Necati,
First of all, it is none of your business who I am and why I have popped up recently. But, faced with such a question in a similar setting, my humorous Persian fellow countrymen would answer: “I am your angel of death!”, not in physical meaning of course.
Secondly, The French court condemned Professor Lewis not by virtue of the Genocide denial law, which was then indeed non-existent, but because the court found the professor at fault in declaring in an interview with Le Mond in 1993 that the qualification of Armenian Genocide of the events in 1915 was nothing more than the Armenian version of History. Whereas, as a scientific authority he had to mention other non-Armenian versions which approve the definition, such as the declaration in may 1985 of the Sub-commission of the United Nations charged with the repression and prevention of Genocide, the Resolution of the European Parliament in june 1987, or the work of the International colloquium in Paris in August of 1984 etc. By his negligence he had thus caused discriminatory injury to the descendants of the victims, who had brought a civil suit against him. You may refer for this to the 23 June 1995 issue of Le Monde.
Finally, I have brought the above explanation not mainly to convince you, because I suspect you have another mission here, but for those readers, whether Armenian or Turk, who engage in a decent exchange of views to reach sensible understandings.
ragnar naess –-you know why you’re mute on my question whether similar laws criminalizing the denial of the Jewish genocide were ‘ridiculous’, don’t you? Because if you admit they were, you’d end up in jail; and if you admit they weren’t, you’d become a hypocritical advocate for double standards.
B
For all those who at times rise up in these pages with placating phrases such as “we [Turks and Armenians] used to live in relative peace”:
“Turkish rule… meant unutterable contempt… The Armenians (and Greeks) were dogs and pigs… to be spat upon, if their shadow darkened a Turk, to be outraged, to be the mats on which he wiped the mud from his feet. Conceive the inevitable result of centuries of slavery, of subjection to insult and scorn, centuries in which nothing belonged to the Armenian, neither his property, his house, his life, his person, nor his family, was sacred or safe from violence–capricious, unprovoked violence–to resist which by violence meant death.“
— British ethnographer William Ramsay after his visit to the Ottoman Empire in the late 1890s
You are absolutely correct Berch.. Ragnar will try his best to remain vague and in the middle.. but there is no middle when it comes to Armenian Genocide and its denial… so we shall wait and see if he responds..
I, a proud TURK, hereby condemn The Editorial Board of AW upon their continous censor my posts while Armenian commenters freely make propaganda in Turkish media.
AW mindset is very similar to fascist french president Sarko.
You can cage the singer but not the song.
Yet they publish your comment where you complain about them censoring you. Oh the irony…
and we the Armenians don’t really care about what you care about or complain about…
and yes… of course your comment where you cry like a baby Superior Turk is not realy flattering.. it does not give the accurate picture of your superiority gene… but then again, made up titles and entitelements usually do end up swept behind the cracked door..lol
Necati,
I’m sure you have barrowed “You can cage the singer but not the song” from Kurdish Freedom Fighters. That statement goes well with Kurds. Taking into consideration the oppression and the imprisonment that the Kurds are suffering in Turkey, and yet their desire for freedom can be heard loudly in their Patriotic Songs. Indeed, you can imprison the fighter but not his spirit.
Ragnar wrote: “….I pointed out that the great moral responsibility of the CUP is much more clearcut than assertions of existence of a program for extermination about which there is a disagreement.”
Here’s the thing. Just because there are those who express doubts, who disagree there was a genocide, does not mean their arguments are worthy of repetition in any reputable newspaper or publication, academic forum, or even polite conversation. As in the case of the Holocaust, a just society can deem some speech to be so harmful in nature that it is determined necessary to curtail it. There are examples and precedents all over the world of such limits on freedom of speech. ‘ Anything goes’ is simply irresponsible.
On the surface, it sounds like you are just trying to be a balanced thinker, Ragnar, but in reality you are aiding those who want to spare Turkey from facing the truth. Such support for denial also harms the fabric of Turkish society which must confront cultural myths and bigotry before it can achieve true democracy.
Perhaps you don’t agree that people in Turkey suffer from the ignorance their government imposes upon them? Look at poor Necati who is rabid with anti-Armenianism because he believes the official Turkish explanations regarding the genocide.
Ragnar will always remain unbalanced no matter what he says.. we have established that.. and you and me both, Boyajian jan know the best how Ragnar operates… it will never change.. he may throw a bone here and there to catch our attention but deep down he will remain Turcophile..
Berch had asked him a question and he is yet to answer it..
Miss Gayane,
you force me to debate with you..but i will not…
Not sure why my other post did not come through but i will try again..
Necati Pasha… you and robert the turk who also pretends to know something to debate about is not about debating.. you both don’t know what that is…
You know yourself you are wrong in your assumptions, but you are convinced yourself you are on the right side. Anyone can defend a position that’s coming from a deluded and mistaken point of view. It’s much harder to defend a position that’s considered and correct. Mainly because those who are deluded and mistaken are usually the loudest and the most insistent in the veracity of their cause. Don’t you think Necati Pasha???
Ragnar Naess: You say(Dec. 25): “I pointed out that the great moral responsibility of the CUP is much more clearcut than assertions of existence of a program for extermination about which there is a disagreement.” This is a phony dichotomy based on an incomplete sentence. Responsibility for WHAT? Using half-baked English like this is a convenient way to avoid the core issue while muddying the waters for Turkey’s benefit, isn’t it?
Diranakir —
In the most commented thread “Bedrosyan: Searching for Lost Armenian Churches and Schools in Turkey” and other fora several posters refuted mr naess over the need for calling the crime by its specifically coined and widely accepted name. They also confronted this ola nordmann on the issue of premeditated program of extermination which he doubts could have existed in a country whose Armenian Christian group was systematically uprooted, death marched, savagely butchered, raped, and mutilated, while the government was uninformedly sipping Turkish coffee in Constantinople.
We ought to just accept that not all Norwegians could be Fridtjof Nansens and Bodil Biørns.
B
Berch jan.. Ragnar won’t budge and will stick to his guns.. he will deny his denialist self by using many tactics and confusing comments.. but then again you already knew that by following our thread on “Bedrosyan: Searching for Lost Armenian churches……”” and other threads…
He is yet to answer the question that you posed but no word yet.. not surprised…he probably will come back and use some excuse of “oh i was out of the country giving lectures or talking on Turkish Tv, or doing my book…etc. etc…
To Berch:
I also have a previous history of exchanges with Naess and know his position. I simply wanted to call him on one of his tricks. The sentence in question is just another reminder that denial of the Armenian Genocide and logical language are incompatible. We can see how the entire Turkish denialist establishment is tied up in knots and doesn’t know what to do except bristle and threaten.
Necati, this link is to an article by Robert Fisk about changes happening in Turkey regarding denial of the genocide. Didn’t want you to be left behind.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-turkeys-long-road-to-reconciliation-6281198.html
Boyajian…. great link. I encourage everyone to read some of the editorial columns in Today’s Zaman and Hurriyet over the French legislation incident. Many Turks are challenging their governments traditional position…. and stating it as in the interests of Turkey. Slowly the Turks are realizing that reconciling with their genocidal past is in THEIR interests. We are on the correct path. Our challenge will be to remove hate or anger from our positions as more Turks embrace the truth.
Stepan.. we all do respect .. we said this many times.. we do not hate nor are we angry at the ordinary Turks.. please stop this… we have frustration and annoyance with genocidal denialists like Necati and ilk… no where did we say ALL Turks are hated by the Armenians… and yes we will embrace any Turk who is on the right path and on the side of the truth.. that should go without saying…
you should go and check out this article where not only Turks but Non-Turks are sooo hated of Armenians… let me know what do you think…
http://blogs.ocweekly.com/navelgazing/2011/12/ergun_kirlikoval_
watenpaugh_uc_davis.php#comment-397621174
I agree Stepan. After feeling so much anger, frustration, mistrust, and even at times, hatred because of the Turkish denial of the genocide, we know it will take a conscious effort to let go of years of negative attitudes about Turks and Turkey. But I know it can be done. I have attended talks presented by sympathetic Turks who courageously acknowledge the truth of our history and express their opinion that Turkey must make amends to Armenians, and I can honestly say that it fills me with such warmth toward the person. My Armenian soul craves those simple words…”We are so sorry. What can we do to make this right? When we hear those words, we will feel the iceberg of contempt and mistrust begin to melt away. But it won’t happen overnight. Trust will be rebuilt through sincere and concrete actions on the part of Turks and Turkey.
Very well done GAYANE @ocweekly. slashing left and right with your samurai sword. You make us proud.
(a round of applause for our fearless literary warrior sister)
I see S. Yilmaz has been busy there.
That guy Maxime Gauin is a notorious French AG Denialist. Claims he is a historian. He has visited AW before.
(I miss the font bolding and italics in the new, improved AW)
Mersi Avery jan.. and thank for jumping in yourself.. I was drawning but i refused to give up.. can’t give up.. will never give up… I can fight but knowledge with details and more in depth history that you, among other posters here have, is needed the most in such cases.. I have yet to learn that skill and I thank all of you for giving me the tools to do so.. one day Avery jan.. one day..
I too miss the bold and Italic… :)
Stepan:
I read the same TodaysZaman and Hurriyet, and I see nothing but hysterical, well coordinated attacks on the French, the French AG Bill, and AG acceptance in general.
And, like Gayane, I take issue with this: “Our challenge will be to remove hate or anger from our positions as more Turks embrace the truth.”
What “hate” or “anger” from “our positions” ?
How many times we have to go though this ?
When was the last time you saw hate towards ordinary Turks expressed here ? How many dozen more examples of unrestrained hate spewing from many ordinary Turks directed at Armenians do you need to see.
Do we have to give the same examples constantly to make an impression ?
Our challenge is not our nonexistent “hate” towards ordinary individual Turks.
Our challenge is to spend every minute of our spare time supporting and strengthening RoA and Artsakh.
(including countering Anti-Armenian propaganda in the blogosphere)
Our challenge is to spend every spare dollar supporting and strengthening RoA and Artsakh.
Stepan, here, please read this:
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=enjoy-your-new-young-turk-2011-07-26 (copy and paste one whole line with no CR)
This is what we are facing. I am very happy that there are righteous Turks who post @AW and elsewhere (like the fearless Ms. Mine Ozcelik Bagrationi who posts @TZ).
But they are very, very few. For each righteous Turk, there are dozens that spew Anti-Armenian hate regularly. I know, because I read both TZ and HDN regularly.
So please let us all stop getting woozy because one or two Turks stop denying the AG. (Woopty Doo).
We have lots of work to do.
Neither Armenia nor Artsakh are out of danger – not by a long shot.
Keeping the Fascist State of Turkey tied down and preoccupied is part of the program.
Avery: So please let us all stop getting woozy because one or two Turks stop denying the AG. (Woopty Doo).
I think it’s a bigger deal than you give it credit for. You may harshly criticize denialists on this forum, but just read this…
“As you know, the issue of relocation was an event that made world to yell blue and made all of us to be considered as murderer. We knew, before we done it, the Christian world won’t tolerate it and they would direct anger and hatred toward us. Why did we impute the title of murderer to our race? Why did we enter into such decisive and difficult struggle? That was done just for securing the future of our country that we know as more precious and sacred than our lives”– That was said by the deputy of Bursa in 1920.
Honestly, this is all they know, and rather than change their minds when an accurate, neutral version of history is presented to them, they defend their nation and ancestors blindly. The real problem is that CHP- the nationalist party that founded Turkey- is now considered the center left. The problem therefore is that people with all political beliefs are nationalists, except of course my party the BDP :). Turkish people need to understand that the “Armenian issue” as Turks call it is not an attack on Turkish people and culture. I’m certain the French have no real problem with Turkey- all they are doing is recognizing and criminalizing a crime committed by Turkish people. If we could only realize that the world doesn’t have it out for us, and that if we recognized the Armenian genocide, the fact that France recognized it wouldn’t even be big news. This realization won’t happen overnight so I think every person counts. In the end, one day the Turkish government will wake up with a conscious and see that they still have blood on their hands- and the Armenian genocide will be recognized.
Stepan –
Our challenge will be to remove hate or anger from our positions AFTER the Turks embrace the truth.
B
Also, Stepan –
It’s not “hate or anger”. It’s a righteous indignation of the victim-nation.
B
Boyajian – I didn’t quite get what you agree with Stepan on. Do you agree that we have ‘hate’ in our positions?
“Our challenge will be to remove hate or anger from our positions as more Turks embrace the truth.”
Berch, speaking for myself, I know I don’t hate individual Turks, but I certainly have had moments of hate toward the Turkish denial and toward the way their contempt for our claims manifest in forums such as this. Also, when the Turkish students protested in Washington DC on April 24th and danced and made crude comments about Armenian women, I was infuriated at their ignorance. It will be a challenge for me to let go of all the negative associations I have toward Turks but I would be willing to try if they are willing to apologize and make amends. If I understood him correctly, I agree with Stepan that as Turks begin to change, we will need to be ready to adjust our rhetoric.
I agree, ‘righteous indignation’ is a more proper term for what Armenians feel.
You may be right David, as to restraining ourselves a bit in light of more Turks embracing the truth as to AG.But I´m sorry to inform you that these few drops in the ocean do not signify that the whole-majority ,if you wish-of them Truks are yet to be educated that what their Govt.s over the past 70/80 yrs have taught them in schools and within their country is UNTRUE,FAKE.
Today I received a post from Istanbulla from a poor soul Armenian there that had somehow passed this on ,but wiat it was published in AGOS too(may God help him,the writer/publisher from toikish wrath) that Erdogan had again insisted that there was no Genocide perpetrated on Armenians…
very harshly inssting that it was not true….
So ,it is very early to be like you opine -let´s say-open hearted and kind with any of them Turks.Even their most advanced guard their ¨turkishness¨principles.Beware of that.they are not to be kidded with.They are fierce in their maintaining their position as ¨leaders¨rather Bosses…
Their character must undergo change big change,which is not that facile…
best for this yrs to you anmd all
In France, the Criminal Court of Lyon sentenced Movses Nisanian, an Armenian member of the Municipal Council of Lyon and the Regional Administrator of Villeurbanne Dashnaksutyn and Armenian Revolutionary Federation , to pay 500 euro fines to Maxime Gauin on the grounds of slandering and comparing historian Maxime Gauin with “a Nazi”, “a denier”, because of Gauin’s article on an internet site about the realities of 1915 incidents which is used wrongly by Armenian diaspora.
i can hear you armenians saying: “OH! this historian is paid by bad Turks”.
necati pasha.. guess what maxime Gauine is a denalist and he is not worth even mentioning.. he already showed his true colors on another blog and to be honest with you.. you and him are no difference… Gauine can pass as a Nazi.. that is for sure…
This is addressed to Stepan’s following statement (Dec. 30):
“I encourage everyone to read some of the editorial columns in Today’s Zaman and Hurriyet over the French legislation incident. Many Turks are challenging their governments traditional position.”
I also regularly read those papers. Many of the columnists are superb, but those papers are only online English editions tilted to western readers that the masses of Turkey never see or read. Therefore concluding, just on the basis of reading them that “many Turks are challenging their government’s traditional position” is very doubtful. They are not mass circulation papers and present a softer, European image of Turkish political thinking than is the reality in the street.
This needs to be taken into consideration to avoid acting and speaking on the basis of illusions.
Berch
sorry for the late answer. No, I am against laws against opinions and viewpoints. there is no such law in Norway about denying the holocaust, and I hope it never will be.
Boyajian and Gayane, yes I have my opinions which do not change much. At times I receive new information which makes me modify my position in one or another direction, but not in the essentials – so far.
diranakir
we have not discussed before, but as Gayane says you might take a look at some of the earlier discussions in AW to get an impression of my point of view.
the CUP leaders had, by Talat’s own admission, a moral responsibility because they did not prosecute many of those who massacred armenians
Happy new year to all of you
Well, we still disagree, Boyajian! What I ask for is a retreat from a position on the Armenian Genocide which I believe is not the right one, and one that has become a kind of blind alley. So you are in the position that you are talking with someone who feels solidarity with the Armenian cause but is differing in his analysis. We have discussed this before.
Ragnar .. i am sorry but your position is absolutely not necessary.. we don’t need a wishy washy individual … we said this million times.. you can’t have your cake and eat it too.. there is no yes buttttttttttttttttttttttt …………… no.. you continue your stubborn stance on Genocide .. i dont’ really care at this poitn what you think because whatever you say, the end product is closet denialist… i am sorry to say..
Funny, Ragnar, after all this time it is still unclear what you stand for. If, as you say, the CUP has moral responsibility, please be specific about what they are responsible for? And who in your opinion should repay the Armenians for their immense loss? And in what form? Your answer to these questions reveal what you feel solidarity with.
Also can we clarify this objection to France’s decision to criminalize Armenian Genocide denial? Is it really wrong of France, which has already officially determined the genocide to be a fact, to enact a law that prohibits further injury to the victims of that genocide? It seems consistent to me—not an anti-free speech action. Isn’t it government’s responsibility to protect its citizenry? And isn’t distortion of facts for the purpose of deception and avoiding responsibility for a crime an assault on the common good and public interest? I believe in freedom of speech, but not without common sense. I believe in academic dialogue and debate, but not as an excuse for avoiding the truth.
i want to share a “big” news with you my sweet Armenian brothers if still any not aware….
Two novels of Orhan Pamuk are Plagiarism from someone else.
1. Beyaz Kale (white castle) : from “Kanuni Devrinde Istanbul” , Fuad Carım (1892-1972)
2. Benim Adım Kırmızı (My Name is Red) : from “Ancient Evenings” , Norman Mailer , An American Novelist.
I want to hear you , Avery….!
Necati.. I am not your sweet brother.. and would never want to be either.. so please stop your cynical idiotic address to Armenian posters..
lets see what else can you notorious genocidal denialist can come up with to justify your lack of intelligence on this matter..
when you publicly apologize for this post, you might here from me, Turk-oglu Necati Genis.
“__________, whenever your grand mother opens her underwear in the tomb, then ATASE will open strategic archives of Turkish Army..” (posted @TodaysZaman necati , 26 December 2011 )
Go ahead, either apologize, or affirm it right here for all @AW readers to see what a “proud” Turk is really like.
Note to readers: the comment from proud Turk Necati was addressed to an Armenian poster by name. I removed the name, because the poster is known to many here. Insulting someone is bad enough. But apparently nothing is off limits to Denialists.
Go for it Gayane and Boyajian for your justified and good posts to Necati, et al.
I agree that the Turks of today while they have nothing to do with the killings and the murderings of Armenians 96 years ago, but the truth of the AG prevails and therefore it must be dealt with. It is high time for Armenians to have closure with the murdering of their nation. The memory of our martyrs cannot be stomped on and the entire world including the whole of Europe and the USA must come out clean and make the wrongs of Turkey to be right!
Apres Seervart jan…
” I believe Turkey is second in the world for most journalists imprisoned, after either Russia or China. not sure.”
And i believe You RVDV are a kurdish who have problems with Turks since Turks ruled you for thousands of years , and you have never had a state..
Hmmm…jealousy or inferiority complex ?
Necati: Turkish people have only been around for a little more than a thousand years. Ottoman Turks like you have been around for even less. The Ottoman Empire conquered Kurdistan and Armenia in 1514.
I have never had a state? Have you heard of the Ayyubid dynasty? How about the great Arabized Kurdish king Salahaddin? And unlike Greeks and Armenians, Kurds were actually stupid enough to fight along side Turks during the War of Independence.
Necati.. i believe you are the one who is suffering from jealousy and inferiority complex.. seriously.. get off what you are on and start feeling and seeing what everyone sees about denialists like you…
Mr. Naess: On Jan. 1 you say, “the CUP leaders had, by Talat’s own admission, a moral responsibility because they did not prosecute many of those who massacred armenians”. Please provide the source, the date, and the direct quotation for this supposed admission. In the absence of that all I see in your ‘position’ is a lot of fog.
Necati Genisi – Please see April 8, 2011 Hurriyet. Here is an excerpt:
“Turkey has more journalists in prison than any other country in the world, including China and Iran, according to a press release issued Monday by the International Press Institute.”
Here is another excerpt:
“The IPI also drew attention to the fact that there are between 700 and 1,000 ongoing cases in Turkey that could result in the imprisonment of more journalists.
“The sheer number of cases poses fundamental questions about the legal provisions governing journalism in Turkey and raises concerns that the number of journalists in prison could further increase,” said Mijatovic.”
Please give us documentation validating your “big claim” about Orhan Pamuk. Be careful, his lawyers may be reading your post.
And just so we are all clear about the degree of common sense in that pseudo democracy, here is another quote from the same article:
“The report also noted the extremely long sentences requested for journalists. Ibrahim Çiçek and Bayram Namaz from Atılım newspaper, for example, each face up to 3,000 years in prison.”
Merci Gayane jan, menk miyayn iraganoutyoune vor ge xosink hos ourish vochinch. Artaroutyoune mer goghmne yev mer nahadagnerou hokinerou bahanchkn ou mer azki artar tadn e vor ge bahanchenk. Jamanag eh vor hadoutsoum esdanank mer teshnameeyen.
Սիրելի Կայանէ,
Հոս կամ այլուր արդարութիւնն է որ կը զրուցենք ու կը պահանչենք մեր արիւնարբու թշնամիէն, որ մօտ այժմ 97 տարիներ շարունակ մեր ազգի բնաչնջումը լաւ մը կատարելէն յետոյ կը շարունակէ ուրանալ Հայոց ցեղասպանութիւնը առանց որեւէ հաստատ գետնի վրայ գտնուելու իր կեղտոտ ու Հայոց անմեղ արիւնով դրծուած իր մահացու ցեռքերը լպիրտօրէն շփելով. տակաւին շատ մը թուրք ուրացողներ անմիտօրէն կը շարունակեն արդարանալ թէ իրենց կառավարութիւնը անմեղ էր, երբ հազարապատիկ փաստեր կան որոնք չէ կարելի աչք գոցել եւ չաղաղակել արդարութեան պատկարելիութիւնը: Եթէ թուրքը իրապէս անմեղ էր Հայոց ցեղասպանութեամբ, եւ ինչո՞ւ միթԷ սպաննեց Հրանդ Տինքին. սպաննեցին անոնք որպէսզի յաւիտեան լռեցնեն այդ բարի եւ անմեղ մարդուն որ անգամ մը եւս չխօսի Հայոց ցեղասպանութեան մասին եւ մանաւանդ չխրախուսէ ներկայիս թուրք ժողովուրդին: Այս բոլորը յաւելեալ փաստեր են որ թուրքը ուզածին չափ դատարկ տեղը թող չչանայ արդարանալ, որովհետեւ հազարապատիկ փաստերը կենդանի են թուռքին կոկորդը խռելու: Եւ ուրեմն Թուրքին համար փախուստ չկայ արդարութիւնը դրժելու: Ան այսօր կամ վաղը իր յատուցումը պիտի տայ Հայ ժողովուրդին: Եթէ ոչ մեզի անձնապէս այլ մեր զաւակներուն անկասկած:
Necati,
Kurds LIVED on those lands that they are on for thousands of yrs side by side with Ermenis,before your people invaded the area!!!(please go check9
They are Arya,same as the Armenians and are not of your race.They were cheated by invading uygurs,moguls,seljuks to side with them and loot the Ermenis(since latter were not allowed to carry arms and/or even Zmeli,small paper cutting knives…
When Armenians finally overthrew Ottoman Turkish rule(at least in Eastern Armenia) the kurds began to feel they were cheated and at Sevres, an ¨Autonomous kurdistan¨was granted to them.Thus they were put on Road to further autonomy and eventually an Independent Kurdistan(which is what they desire now).Kurds are not jealous, but are beginning to be more conscious of their being a different people than the Turks.
ragnar naess –
You effectively avoided giving a clear-cut answer to my question: do you or do you not admit that the EU’s (in which Norway is a member-state) laws criminalizing the Jewish genocide are as well ‘ridiculous’, as you stigmatized the law criminalizing the Armenian genocide?
Necati Genis –
I think it’s more appropriate for you to call ‘sweet brothers’ your mass murderer ancestors and your modern-day denialist, unrepentant, and narrow-minded co-ethnics.
“since Turks ruled you [Kurds] for thousands of years”. Kurds, like Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks, have been in the region for thousands of years, but it must be a new scientific discovery that nomadic Turks have physically existed on Earth for thousand[s](?!) of years…
Necati, aren’t you tired of all the hate?
Do you seriously not understand that Ottoman Turkey abused both Armenians and Kurds (among other indigenous groups) on their own homeland and turned them into second-class citizens for centuries? Do you truly not understand that you can’t oppress people for years and then be surprised when they reject the abuse and mobilize for their freedom and equality? Denying their history, claiming their culture, restricting their language and religion is a provocation that Turkey is guilty of. Do you approve of the fact that Ottoman Turkey killed over a million innocent women and children because some Armenians sided with Czarist Russia, while the majority simply tried to live their lives within their unfair restrictions? Do you accept the annihilation of an ethnic group from its homeland because some of its members decided to stand-up against their oppression? Do you not see that Ottoman Turkey was guilty of inhuman acts for the sake of ‘the nation’ and that the modern republic is guilty of trying to cover it up and deny it for the same reason?
The world knows the truth. Many of your fellow loyal citizens accept this truth. France is standing up for this truth. Stop making yourself into a ridiculous nationalist/racist.
Necati can’t help himself.. he needs professional help..
Necati
We all know very well who Ohannes Pamukian is and his plagiarism
John the turk and Necati:
Orhan Pamuk might very wish that he was Armenian rather than a Turk. The world is aware that we respect our writers. We don’t have thousands of them in jail, some with 3,000 year prison terms! The fact remains that neither of you have been able to submit a shred of documentation verifying your claims of Pamuk’s ancestory, or of any illegal plagerism on the part of this world acclaimed author. Slander of well-know public figures like Pamuk and Sarkozy does not belittle them. It reveals you both as being insignificant and envious persons who descend into unfounded, illegal, accusations against successful people. You are jealous of Pamuk because you are incapable of writing a coherant sentence in your own defense, whereas, Pamuk has won a Nobel Prize. You attempt to belittle Sarkozy by calling him derogatory names because you cannot “measure up” to him in intellectual stature. You invent accusations in order to support your inability to document a position that has no legitimacy whatsoever, Your comments reveal persons who are drowning in fear, knowing there is no anchor, and no longer any safe shore.
well said Perouz. but you are too nice with these two.
One of them has already insulted one of our Armenian posters, VTiger.
The other is capable of descending to this:
“__________, whenever your grand mother opens her underwear in the tomb, then ATASE will open strategic archives of Turkish Army..” (posted @TodaysZaman necati , 26 December 2011 ) (addressing a poster know to many here)
The highly refined, highly educated Jewish intellectuals were no match for the Brownshirt thugs. You can never win an intellectual argument with the type.
Only one thing works.
Avery jan.. i am absolutely taken back by Necati’s comment about our grandmother (no matter who got the comment, their grandmother is our grandmother)…. I am absolutely furious and if it was me, I would ban Necati from posting on our forums until he apologizes… AW should take that under consideration…
We have given this scum too much freedom and should take a step to stop him from slithering himself onto on our pages… he has crossed the line..
Necati,
Mr. Orhan Pamuk is a Turkish highly acclaimed writer and you are simply giving him to us Armenians on a silver platter by calling him to be as Ohannes Pamukian. This is truly amusing. He is the only Turkish writer who has won the Nobel Prize and yet you are giving him to us just like that. We would be honored to have him amongst us, but Mr. Orhan Pamuk is not a traitor, he stands on a far higher platform than yourself it seems. In a sense Mr. Pamuk loves you as well as his countrymen so much that he wishes to bring you and his Turkish people on the very high platform that he stands on. Why am I saying that? Because when your Turkish government and your people come to terms with their past and accept the heineous crimes of their history of 96 years ago and move on as good humans should, then only then the Turkish people will truly come clean with the Armenian people and will be far more respected by the intelligent and the knowledgeable people throughout the world. You see, the world knows it already of what transpired during the Armenian Genocide, and they view Turkey continuing to be belligerent, when she refuses to come to terms and accept the first Genocide of the 20th century carried on by Turkey during 1915-1923. Once Turkey comes out of their coma and start acting sanely, then the European Union will probably not have a case against Turkey not to join them. Then only then Turkey will rise higher and become one of the civilized nations amongst other nations.
That’s what Mr. Orhan Pamuk wishes for you and for yours and his countrymen. But as it stands today you are still so blinded by standing your denialist ground that you don’t see the fruits that he is trying to offer you people. If I were you, I would love, praise and be so proud that Mr. Orhan Pamuk is a fine Turkish man and an intellectual.
Seervart,
We all , you too, know that nobel award is a pay-back to Pamukyan for his betrayal to his home.
He is a thief, why respect ? on the contrary, i am ashamed that We noble Turkish Nation created this thief. Do you think he would get nobel if he had said : Armenian gangs killed 530.000 muslims ?
A note: i am not that much rude not to reply people mentioning my name but AW always censors me …
We could “talk” in another place where there is freedom of speech.
AW is like France.
Necati.. you don’t have the priviledge to talk to Seervart or anyone … period…UNTIL YOU APOLOGIZE FOR YOUR UNCUTH and DISRESPECTFUL comment toward another poster about her grandmother…
Of course people like Necati and John consider Orhan Pamuk a traitor- Also people like Yasar Kemal who saved the Armenian Church of the Holy Cross from being destroyed, and frequently speaks out against Kurdish oppression. But Mehmet Ali Agca- who shot the Pope and people like Ogun Samast are their heroes. Modern Turkey is filled with many great, respectable people who see the truth- but most of them aren’t on forums like this because of their shame of what their government continues to deny.
We would welcome those great Turks with open arms.. Please great, resepectable people who see the Truth.. please don’t be embarassed and share your views.. Armenians would be honored to have you amongs us and we would absolutely understand… please do not hide..
This is a link to a Huffington Post article that looks at whether the proposed law in France banning Armenian Genocide denial is censorship or something else.
Ragnar, I hope you will read this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bernardhenri-levy/on-the-armenian-genocide-_b_1181758.html
” The fact remains that neither of you have been able to submit a shred of documentation verifying your claims of Pamuk’s any illegal plagerism on the part of this world acclaimed author”
google search string : orhan pamuk intihal
here is a few , i know some of you can understand Turkish. :)
Orijinali:
”Cenova’dan Napoli’ye giderken, hareketimizi haber alarak Ponz Adaları’nda bekleyen Türk donanmasının hücümuna uğradık” (Carım, 11) İntihali:
”Venedik’ten Napoli’ye gidiyorduk, Türk gemileri yolumuzu kesti” (Pamuk, 11)
Orijinali:
”Gene esir düşebiliriz korkusuyla, kürekçileri sıkıştırmaktan vazgeçtiler. …Esir düşerlerse şikáyet göreni feci şekilde cezalandırırlar, hatta yokederler” (Carım, 12) İntihali:
”Esir düşerse cezalandırılmaktan korkan kaptanımız, kürek kölelerini şiddetle kırbaçlatmak için bir türlü emir veremiyordu” (Pamuk,11)
Orijinali:
”Rampacılar gemiye daldılar ve herkesi çırılçıplak ettiler. Beni tepeden tırnağa soymadılar, sırtımdakiler, onların hoşlanmadıkları ve beğenmedikleri şeylerdi” (Carım, 13) İntihali:
-”Rampacılar gemimize ayak basarlarken kitaplarımı sandığıma koyup dışarı çıktım. …Dışarıda herkesi toplamışlar, çırılçıplak soyuyorlardı. … Önce bana ilişmediler” (Pamuk, 14)
Orijinali:
”…Láfa, sözü geçen kaptanlardan Durmuş Reis karıştı. Cenevizli dönme Durmuş Reis, ‘İdrar ve nabız hekimidir, cerrahtan daha faydalıdır’ dedi. Kürekten, işte bu suretle kurtuldum” (Carım, 13) İntihali:
”Reis sordu: İdrardan ve nabızdan anlıyor muydum hiç? Anladığımı söyleyince hem küreğe verilmekten kurtuldum, hem de bir iki kitabımı kurtarmış oldum” (Pamuk, 14)
Orijinali:
”En üste, Muhammed’in sancaklarını astılar; bunların altına bizden aldıkları bayrakları, haçları ve Meryem Anamız’ın tasvirlerini astılar. Külhanbeyler, başaşağı asılan bu haçlarla tasvirleri, bir ok yağmuruna tuttular” (Carım, 18) İntihali:
”Bütün direklerin tepesine sancaklar çektiler, altlarına da bizim bayrakları. Meryem Ana tasvirlerini, haçlarını tersinden asıp külhanbeylerine aşağıdan oklattılar” (Pamuk, 15)
Orijinali:
”İşi çaktım ve bir kaşık isteyerek gözü önünde üç kere doldurup içtikten sonra …beş hap gerekirken altı tane yaptım. Altısını da kendisine verdikten sonra, bir tanesini isteyip yuttum” (Carım, 22) İntihali:
”Paşa zehirlenmekten korktuğu için göstererek şuruptan bir yudum içip haplardan bir tane yuttum” (Pamuk, 17)
alot of us dont Necati Bey.. Turkish is not a language we are dying to learn and understand.. the language that used to be beautiful to the ears of our ancestors but stopped when your blood thirsty monster ancestors decided to butcher everything beautiful and civilized. if your brain cells have the capability to disrespect our grandmothers and Armenians in general, you can use your damaged wits to translate.. don’t just throw up something in Turkish …
There are some similarities, I’ll give you that. Did it ever cross your mind that he is doing it on purpose? Google intertextuality. However, I think they probably check for plagiarism before they give you the Nobel Prize for Literature….
Well said Avery, “the highly refinded, educated Jewish intellectuals were no match for brownshirt thugs”, but you mean of course not in intellectual sense, but in the sense of moral baseness, visciousness, impudence and bigotry. I can only hope that the presence of these thugs here can affect the standpoint of other, more sensible Turks, who hopefully also visit these pages, but for understandable reasons keep silent. A Persian saying goes: “I learned politeness and civility from the impolite and uncivil people, I did the opposite of what they did”.
And to Necati and other miserable creatures who like him suffer from an incurable inferiority complex, I would say, go find another business, because as you see, your presence here not only does not advance your cause, but makes you and your cohorts even more contemptible.
Contemptible, indeed!
yes of course: low-brow thugs – vicious, impudent, bigoted, uneducated, scum of the earth Brown shirts terrorized, humiliated, sometimes beat to death highly educated, highly refined Jewish intellectuals, who had spent lifetimes achieving greatness and enriching all humanity.
Well said Arshag…
Pasha Necati: I don’t consider anything written in Turkish about any pro Armenian Genocide writer to be legitimate documentation. Everything is filtered through article 301, the official Turk position that cannot be deviated from. Turkish writers who are truth speakers are all either imprisoned or waiting trial. They have effectively been silenced. Please forward documentation from either the Nobel Prize committee or Pen International. These independant committees are always cognizant of plagerism, and not subject to article 301, or any other political postion. They also do not accept unfounded libelous statements as fact.
Boyajian: The Huffington Post article is a balanced and decisive point of view from a highly respected scholar. I appreciate your having alerted us to it.
Necati – Can’t read the menu in Turkish, so I’ll take kebab and raki. –B
I will take one too please..:)
Hahahaha…Great response, literally made me laugh out loud.
I copied from Boyajian…Congrats for your contibution
Please contribute to Huffington post and read the lies
This is a link to a Huffington Post article that looks at whether the proposed law in France banning Armenian Genocide denial is censorship or something else.
Ragnar, I hope you will read this.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bernardhenri-levy/on-the-armenian-genocide-_b_1181758.html
Necati,
What in the world you are talking about? Armenians were systematically murdered by your Ittihadist government during the 1915 Armenian Genocide. How much twisting of the words can you do when you say 530 thousand that Armenian gangs killed muslims? Surely you are not serious about this? An entire indigenous people of the Armenian Highlands that Turkey colonized since the 1100’s then murdered an entire nation of nearly two(2) million, are not going to make any attempt to save themselves from the premeditated murdering acts of the Turkish gov’t? I know for fact that the Armenian men were sent to fight off Russia, then afterwards they were taken away to the interiors of Turkey and were murdered one by one after fighting and defending Turkey. This was the Ittihadist Turkey’s thanks to their Armenian soldiers who went and fought for their country. You are playing terrible word games that unfortunately it is you that has been fed by your higher ups. The gangs you are talking about were not gangs, but Armenian voluntary defenders of their people so that they will not be entirely murdered by the Turkish gov’t of 1915. The only place that they tried to defend and very few of their own people was in Van, and even then the Turkish gendarme went after the women, the children and the elderly who were trying to escape to Persia about over a thousand of them, and the gendarme went and killed every one of them so that they won’t escape and save themselves. It’s in my grandfather’s memoirs. You see, he was a high ranking officer for Turkey at those times. You cannot speak to me about it, because I know from the horse’s mouth. There is nothing more to talk about. These are all known historical facts.
There is nothing further to talke about the likes of you that are denialists of the Armenian Genocide.
Furthermore, dear Seervart- the heroic Armenian people living in their ethnic HOMELAND, defeated their right to live in their lands also in MUSSA LER /Dagh/- about which Franz Werfel wrote his famous novel- ”40 days of Mussa Dagh”. My grandparents, too- amongst all their Armenian compatriots, fought till the last drop of blood to defend their pride, right to live a dignified life, right for living as Armenian Christians in their Millenial Homeland- AND THEY WON. It was again the French Navy who happened to be in the waters of the Meditterranean Sea and, noticing the flattering white flag in the waters which read- ”CHRISTIANS ARE IN DANGER!!! ”…. they came for help,… and that was the way our people were saved and me, their proud descendent, am here to write these lines now,,, the same heroic struggles against Ottoman barbars were organized during the 1915 Armenian Genocide perod in brave mountainous Sassoun , Mush, Shapin-Garahisar, ZEYTOUN and surely, in our heroic URFA…This heroic and proud nation can not be exterminated- we, their offspring are here, Turks, and WILL DEMAND THE JUSTICE: THE JUSTICE TO BE BACK AND LIVE OUR LIVES IN OUR HOMELAND,
How ridiculous the Turks are! They’re insulted? Cowards!
Devtogloo wants to lead Turkey after Erdogon. Imagine what will set Turkey free from accountability. The desire of nationalist Turkes is always to deny the genocide.
Devitogloo is not the first to lash out at France, and he is defianatley not the first to blackmail other nations over genocide. 50% of Turkish heads are filled with genocide in their minds. Genocide means Reparations and even lands and emprisonment of liers who help the process of denial over decades.
Devtogloo is not a unique Turk who came up with new ideas, he is simply a nationalist Turkish politician who is bred to impress Turkish mentality and Turkish greatness.
Who is going to lash out at “INSULTING TURKISHNESS ” laws which are very non democratic for a country that claims to be democratic, Euorpean, and modern.
Who is going to lash out at opression of Kurdish poppulation and making their written language illigal.
Who is going to lash out at Turkey for egnorance of Armenian history until this last decade.
Who is going to lash out at Turkey for not being responsible for accountability towards those who suffered for its very existance.
who is going to lash out at Turkey for the mass graves, which were kept secret from the world for many decades until 2006.
Who is going to lash out at Turkey for the secret lives their monorities live to keep their identity secret in orde to survive for decades.
Who is going to lash out at Turkey for arming Azerbaijan’s decatator Aliev.
Who is going to lash out at Turkey who is demonizing most of Armenians in the world who live in diaspora and attempting to isolate Armenia from diaspora.
Who is going to lash out at Turkey for continuing to hurt Armenia after all they have don in WWI.
I guess nationalistic Turks know who they are and they only care to stick to their agenda. What is truth and justice doesn’t matter, since they have got away with it so far and their true intension is to keep the almost 100 year denialist system intact. Many of whom grew up in the system.
Deveatogloo is one example. His pride is dependant on not what happened in history, but who he aims to please and what he learned to uphold.
Turkish government is not one that you can expect more than this from. Because just like the ottoman solders who raped the innocent in WWI They learned to justify their wrong actions.