YEREVAN—”There can be no reconciliation without genocide recognition. Those who are trying to present attempts to establish relations with Turkey as reconciliation efforts are mistaken. Real reconciliation can be achieved only after repentance,” said President Serge Sarkisian this week, when speaking to Russian media.
In response to whether real economic growth could take place in Armenia without normalizing relations with Turkey, Sarkisian said that Armenia would not die of starvation, adding that for the past two decades it has in fact managed to grow.
Economic growth is not the motivating factor for normalizing relations, he said, but the geography that has been fated to Armenia.
“The fact of the Armenian Genocide is indisputable and we must spare no effort for Turkey to finally recognize the genocide,” he said, according to News.am. “It is a struggle for justice and for security. It is eventually a struggle for the inadmissibility of such crimes not only in our region, but throughout the world.”
“No Reconciliation without Recognition” is non-nonsensical.
Try a little harder!
Genocide Acknowledgment without Accountability is hollow and meaningless.
“Acknowledgment with Accountability: Land, Reparations, and Restitution.”
I wish he uttered these words before considering putting Armenia’s signature under the defeatist Turkish-Armenian protocols…
Armenian president speaks like an ordinary Armenian. We have to remind to our prwsident that recognition is necessary but it is not sufficient to have stable Armenian state for the mutual benefit. Our enemies must realize that no more can treats us like “govour.” We have army and brave leaders. I happy to see our president understand and speaks out about our real issues with Turkey. I hope one day he will demand our Western Armenia as well.
Well said, Mr. President. Chosing economic ransom over the integrity of our civilization is exactly what the Turkish government intend. As our democracy matures, the instinctive skills of our people will continue to prevail and neutralize the impact of the deniers. Turkey continues it hypocracy( some call it political) campaign of creating a veneer of of a tolerant regional democracy; as it continues its cultural repression of Greeks, Armenians and Kurds.
The inability of Turkey to deal with its past and shed itself of its current duplicity is weakness that enable out justice in the future. While the political stage develops, we must do everything we can to support the economic and political development of Armenia and Artsakh. The opportunity to contribute is what the diaspora has dreamed of since 1920. That opportunity presents itself every day. Embrace it with all of the creative and building skills of our people.
Such a clear and unequivocal statement would have been very useful a couple of years ago.
Better later than never!
Well now the President will understand that he should listen to his people .. because if he did and he heard our cries, he would have never signed that empty protocols and would have saved us alot of grief, alot of yelling and screaming and alot of hateful remarks…
But like Boyajian said.. better late than never and lets hope because of his noncalculated step we all won’t be sorry..
But glad to hear he is coming around little by little. He needs stronger and more powerful words and actions but I am sure it will come.. hopefully..
Gayane
Good but not enough. Now Mr.President is in right track.
What you said you should mean it.
My Valuable Advice to Mr. Sarksyan
Mr. Sarksyan,
Please, put Your right hand into Your right pocket!
Hm,
how much credibility should one really assign to this announcement, given: (1) who it is coming from (i.e., given the mess he created on this since 2009) and (2) the election cycle in Armenia. I think I will assign 0 credibility to this, and potentially even negative, given how easy he flip-flops on issues of importance to keep his illegitimate self in power.
But that aside, I think he is making an excellent point that Armenia won’t die of starvation if the border remains closed. He knows too well that the only way this happens if he stays in power longer!
Too, protocols still not ‘eliminated’ by a Serge??
No reconciliation without JUSTICE!
We demand the return of our assets, nothing more and nothing less.
We have every right over our belongings and no amount of time or politicking (from either Armenia or Turkey) will deter us.
When he caved in outside pressure to sign idiotic protocols, one of his arguments was that normalization of relations and open borders with Turkey are beneficial to Armenia. Now this politician is saying that the real economic growth could take place in Armenia without normalizing relations with Turkey. This and all of his predecessor thugs will say everything and will do everything in order to remain in power. Classic political whethercocks.
Politicians: the second oldest profession in the history of the mankind after… you know who
Ugh… Will Armenia ever have a patriotic president? Ever? Even just for a change?
Papken, too, Armenian president (with his extended cohorts) need to leave office and more politcally astute and intelligent, experienced men and women – patriots – whose for love our citizens of our homeland, and too, whose for love and inclusion our diasporan Armenians shall become the leaders for our fledgling nation of Haiastan – none excluded. To show to the world that the Christian Armenians are due and worthy of standing tall with progressive civilizations – historically, an ancient and advanced peoples who have suffered the Turkish Genocide of the Armenian nation (killings, tortures, and worse). Today, nearly 100 years later pursuing trials due and owing the perpetrators from the 19th and 20th centuries – still.
Gago jan.. that is what i am saying.. WHEN???? very frustrating…
Manooshag jan– absolutely correct in stating that the current situation should be cleansed from the thugs that are running our country.. they should all be gathered together and sent to SIBIR.. and put a body of govt who will fight for our country, people, work on prospering our economy and pave a way for diasporans to return to their lands…
Very huge dream but dreams do come true…
Gayane
I don’t understand why most people on this blog are easily fooled by Sarkisian’s comment “No Reconciliation Without Genocide Recognition”.
What Sarkisian is saying, if Turkish state utters the word “sorry” then Armenia will “reconcile”. The term “reconcile” was introduced by the US State Department under the infamous “TARC”; it is false and not applicable between Turks and Armenians.
To reconcile would mean to bring together two estranged intimates or say family member relations. Armenians are not related to Turks and were never “together”.
There is nothing to reconcile.
The term “reconcile” was introduced by the US State Department to distract Armenians from demanding accountability “Land, Reparations and Restitution”.
What Sarkisian should be saying is Genocide Acknowledgment with Accountability. The accountability means land, reparations and restitution.
I like the way you said it, Papken. our people have survived on strength and conviction in the eyes of adversity.
Can you define “patriotic” for us? Any candidates in mind?
If one judges events such as Sargsian’s pronouncement through the filter of “patriotism”, “mafia du jour”, “zero sums”, “right v wrong”, etc., the observer will never be satisfied. Furthermore, a filtered observation selectively removes information from the event, limiting the chance of an accurate assessment of what has taken place. This long sentence means that events should be assessed on their own merits.
It is significant that any president of Armenia makes such a statement – period. Armenia and the obligations of its government to function in the real world is not equivalent to sides in village squabbles or community meetings. There are pronouncements a government can make and those it should not. Those it makes are made to maximize resultant utility to that state. States do not go around with swagger, at least serious states do not.
A case in point: Many provincial observers have stated that Armenia should have recognized Karabakh as far back as 1994. There is little utility in such random recognition considering Karabakh is under full Armenian jurisdiction and is public knowledge. Armenia recently announced it will recognize Karabakh if Azerbaijani attacks on Karabakh don’t cease. If a random recognition took place ten years ago it would have little utility then and would be lost as a useful political move today.
Another case in point: As noted in http://armenianweekly.com/2010/11/04/prisoners-dilemma/ “Armenia pulled out a tactical victory by taking a confrontational, Turkish precondition-laden ratification orientation, and cleanly placing the ball in the Turkish court.” Somebody in the Armenian FP infrastructure found more utility, given all the pressures exerted, to call Turkey on the Protocols rather than to have chosen the path of claiming all the lands between the Kura (Mtkvari) River to Urmia to Adana and to the Black Sea as Armenian.
“He who is prudent and lies in wait of his enemy who is not, will be victorious”. Sun Tzu
David Davidian
http://www.regionalkinetics.com
Very astute, David. I hope our patience and the long period of lying in wait will begin to pay-off soon.
“Can you define “patriotic” for us? Any candidates in mind?” Why, Armenia’s domestic realities now suggest that a candidate, who is not a pro-establishment thug, can somehow float up and not be suppressed by the authorities? Edward Abbey once said: “A patriot must always be ready to defend his nation against his government.” Serjik is largely seen as the one defending his government (i.e. his own grip to power) against his nation. You can see the striking discrepancy in the living standards between the two entities when you’re in Armenia. Same were his predecessors…
His comments are indeed welcome, yet it is not clear what he means by repentance and the extent of the repentance he deems satisfactory.
I think part of the reason for the negative feedback re his latest comments and the mentioning of the protocols is the lack of a clear articulation of the stand of the government on this issue, either by design, ignorance or …, is a source of anxiety for the average person. While this is understood, this event must be considered on its own merit and timing of declaration as has been suggested above. The level of ambiguity in the statement could also be by design. As much as the protocols are loathed by a very large segment of the population, they represented a tactical victory for armenianforeign policy and should not be taken as face clue capitulation’ available is assimg that the Armenian government knew what it was getting into and did so to score diplomatic points. Whether they have capitalized on this victory is a different issue, as the short term outlook does not boast many overt uses of the victory protocols for maxal diplomatic gain (while they are fresh). One could argue that thevlingvterm goals are mire important, but as Armenians we do nit a tying track record demonstrating our mastery of long term planning and execution.
Events should not only be assessed on their own merits; they should also be assessed in the context of general behavior of a person or general performance of a politician or general policies of a government. And if we look into the context, we shall see sheer incongruity between the performance of the president at the dreadful protocol process and his current statements (such as: normalizing relations with Turkey vs. Armenia’s economic growth — stated just two years ago and now). If it is significant that any president of Armenia makes such a statement (”There can be no reconciliation without genocide recognition”), then the observers may rightfully ask as to what prevented the same president from making such significant statement before or during the protocol process? What obligations is this president essentially fulfilling? The obligations to function in the real world only or the obligations before his own people as well for whom he swore to make sure that the natural rights of men are protected and that men can live in safety, relative prosperity, and without undue stress? Just like a government or social system that, if controlled by technicians, scientists and technical experts, is considered technocratic, so are the views held by some technicians, scientists and technical experts here...
Ara Nazarian: “they [protocols] represented a tactical victory for Armenian foreign policy.” In a non-ratified state, i.e. by a sheer luck that smiled to us becasue of Turkish reluctance, maybe. But I’d rather call it a “tactical victory by default” since I don’t think that the current ruling clique in Armenia are legitimate, highly-professional, erudite, and sober-minded to be able to calculate the consequences of their actions. But would you call it a “tactical victory” if the protocols were ratified by the Turks? Or for some posters here the resultant open borders (non-guaranteed to remain open in the long term by any assessment) would be a “tactical victory” irrespective of what potentially hazardous for the nation provisions these protocols contained? How can we be so superficial?
Armen,
I do not argue the legitimacy of this government at all. we all know the circumstances that the elections were held. However, the reality is that they are in charge. I would also not argue about professionalism of the cadre as defined by western standards. My answer is that they are not, neither are most other entities in Armenia for that matter.
However, I do think that they are smart and wily enough to foresee the Turkish reluctance to ratify the protocols and the subsequent willingness to gamble on the protocols knowing that they would not be ratified. neither one of us has hard results to argue this point one way or another. But, if I were a betting man, I would bet on the side of them knowingly taking this gamble as opposed to shear luck.
I am confident that there is a specific reason for him to come out and give this statement based on negotiations or whatever other communications that might be going on covertly. Also, it is important that the statement was made in Russia. So, this specific event on its own stand has reasons for it that you and I might not be privy to.
As a whole, I agree that there is something to be said about a clear stand by the Government of Armenia on this issue, given his waffling on the economic component of the borders then and now, which could tell us that either they have no clue as to how the economic picture will pan out; they have figured that it’ll have some positive effect but not much, at least in the immediate future, to hang your hat on; or any other alternative. Therefore, they are speaking with both sides of their mouths depending on strategic need at the moment. the illegitimacy of the government makes people uneasy about the motives of the ruling elite, which is the source of much angst among the people. For that I have no panache to offer.
Hye, Obviously, all leaderships of our fledgling Haiastan have/has been inept and totally incapable men who have sought to advance only themselves and their cohorts… due to the mentality of communism…all self serving – none patriots as of our Armenian history. Today, our homeland and our diasporans, together, have need of patriots whose love of our people, whose love of our Haiastan supercedes all else. Sadly, as ALL Haiastan’s leaders to date have egos and pockets were to be filled… too, these leaders have been inclined to OMIT the diasporans (except to accept any monies)… too, exclude/diminish the efforts of the diasporans all the years Haiastan suffered the evils of communism… Diasporans, ARF and more were carrying the torch for Azad Angagh Haiastan.
Truth be known, Haiastansis and together with ALL our diasporans are to secure and advance our ooals for a Haiastan to be stronger and advance through all our world wide generations, 2nd, 3rd and 4th generations – following our Survivors…diasporans scattered all across the world to flee the Turkish wrath against our Christian nation… but constant in their dedicated pursuit of Hai Tahd – into today, 2011 – together!
excellent post Mr. Davidian.
Hye Gago, you expressed it so well…”Serjik is largely seen as the one defending his own government (i.e. his own grip to power) against his nation…” How true, as it is against all Armenians!!
Too, your quote of Edward Abbey:
“A patriot must always be ready to defend his nation against his government”
Serjik, adept at ‘turning’ at times… never truly in defence of his/our nation! His leadership is truly, unprepared, incapable, still not learned to lead fledgling Haiastan. True: “A patriot must always be ready to defend his nation against HIS GOVERNEMENT. Edward Abbey.
If the nation judges events such as Serj’s pronouncements before and after signing of protocols, unsupported by the majority of his people or his actual deeds as president in general through the filter of illegitimate coming to power, deepening of the notorious clan system, monopolization of market, restriction on the emergence of civil society and the middle class, control of mass media, widespread governmental corruption, and impoverishment of the people, the bulk of the nation will never be satisfied.
Furthermore, an educated familiarization with the “letter and spirit” of the protocols endorsed by this president is broadening the chance of an accurate assessment of what could have taken place through a mere comparison of the Turkish-Armenian one with hundreds of other similar Memorandums of Understanding that are taking place in the world. Hardly do erudites or foreign affairs specialists see idiotic provisions in other MoUs such as the establishment of a subcommission on historical dimension or recognition of the current borders or admittance of former treaties. Even the leaders of Japan and the Russian Federation—nominally at war—didn’t have such great a brainpower as Serj to include the issue of their unsettled borders in the MoU on the establishment of diplomatic relations. This long sentence means that events, as well as their consequences, should be intellectually, not instinctively, assessed, if such a thing is at all known to Armenian rulers, by the ones who initiate them. Every event should be assessed on the merits of a ruler’s overall performance, not a singular pronouncement.
It is significant that any president of Armenia makes such a statement, no doubt. Because such a statement, a president would know, is supported by the majority of his people. However, it is also significant that a president becomes accountable to his people for his other deeds and statements that, he would know, are not supported by his people. Otherwise, whose president is he? The outside world’s for whom, we’re told, he has “obligations” or his own villages or communities where, eventually, squabbles and meetings may take place? Because tomorrow, if the actions of a president are not thoroughly assessed and only instinctively, not intelligently, made, it is his people in villages or communities who’ll be suffering from Turkey’s trade domination, as well as political, demographic, and national security threats posed by the unwisely assessed issue of border opening, as well as their aspirations for a just solution of their national cause. The Armenian state is not required to go around with swagger; it is required that a president at least ask the opinion of his people and their diaspora before engaging in a risky adventure that he knows would affect the nation. If such an adventure would affect Serj alone, the ordinary people, I’m sure, would have cared less.
A case in point: If somebody in the Armenian FP infrastructure found more utility in a risky adventure of signing under the three essentially anti-Armenian provisions in the protocols and not the path of claiming the lands between the Kura River to Urmia to Adana and to the Black Sea as Armenian, then why would that someone touch upon the genocide recognition issue? Have balls and continue with the former path of pressuring the Turkish government to ratify protocols. Doesn’t this path have more utility, we’re told, than the utopist demand for justice for a people who did experience the massive loss of life and native lands? Why now touch upon a “no reconciliation without genocide recognition” issue that has no utility, as someone in the Armenian FP infrastructure had considered?
“If you do not know your enemies nor yourself, you will be imperiled in every single battle.” — Sun Tzu
Ara, they may be wily ‘cause they got well-developed instincts, but they are intellectual and academic dwarfs…
Armen,
The reason I posted a comment was to show that it is not accurate to use the same tools in evaluating important statements made by the president of a sovereign state that are used to describe, for example, one’s anger when the wife of a local store owner swears at you in a foreign language.
Sargsian is recognized as the president of Armenia, whether you or anybody else likes it or not. This may be similar to GW Bush being elected in 2000. He was recognized as the president of the United States and assumed that role. He gave speeches, signed bills and set FP. Bush was judged on his performance, not the source of his family’s political power. Just think how a CNN report on any of Bush’s state of the union speeches would be received if rather than being based on the content of what he delivered to Congress it was based on allegations that some of the Bush family holdings were built on nefarious activities!
The point I made was that the statement made by the president of Armenia is significant and is not a function of how he was elected, his gambling habits, or how he combs his hair. He is the messenger for the state of Armenia. His “No Reconciliation Without Recognition” message has been heard by world community. If you want to kill the messenger, that is a totally different discussion.
If you think that Armenia would have been better off telling world powers “go to hell”, claiming all of Western Armenia first (but not to Sargsian’s Armenia because it is illegitimate) then we (apparently not illegitimate Sargsian’s Armenia) will talk with Turkey and that the diplomacy resulting in the Protocol was an IR singularity, thus nullifying the effort, then I suggest you craft an analytic study on how you would have solved Armenia’s diplomatic predicament after about 2003 leading up to today, and have it printed in this newspaper.
David Davidian
http://www.regionalkinetics.com
Sargsian was perfectly willing to sign, and have his rubber stamp parliament ratify, the Protocols. That was a form of “reconciliation”. Hence, Sargsian is not honest in his statement. And what does his statement mean on a practical basis? Nothing.
No one says that he should have drawn a map of Western Armenia and claimed it.
No, the fact is that Sargsian has done nothing to advance the genocide issue and there is a lot of speaking out from his bully pulpit that he could have done but has not.
He has shunned the disapora instread of making joint plans with them over the genocide. That shows that he is not sincere.
Seeking recognition of the genocide only, is hollow and meaningless. It does not solve Armenia’s problems and will not make things better. Genocide Acknowledgment should be with Accountability. Accountability is land, reparations and restitution.
Again, this “reconciliation” is a trap that was first introduced during TARC by the US State Department. Armenian have nothing to “reconcile” with Turks. Armenians want accountability for the crime of genocide.
What would be worse that denial is acknowledgment without accountability.
Be ware of a solution that is worse than the problem.
Have to agree with Armen on many points…excellent comments
David I agree with you on one thing: Serjik is our President, meaning Armenians President whether we like it or not… I just wish he would fall off the govt seat but that is just wishful thinking..
G
Davidian: The reason I posted a comment was to show that it is not accurate to use the same tools in evaluating important statements made by the president of a sovereign state that are used to describe, for example, one’s anger when the wife of a local store owner swears at you in a foreign language.
A: I used no such “tools”. Were you thinking of you in a situation with a local store owner’s wife? A conventional method used by any electorate to rate how a person is handling his or her job as president is normally based on policy and not ideology, on facts and not rhetoric, on practical deeds and not just verbal pronouncements.
Davidian: Sargsian is recognized as the president of Armenia…
A: By whom? There is no such a thing as recognition of a president except for official announcement of results by the Elections Commission and his or her swearing-in ceremony.
Davidian: …whether you or anybody else likes it or not.
A: How about a situation when the majority of the electorate doesn’t, since they never elected him?
Davidian: This may be similar to GW Bush being elected in 2000. He was recognized as the president of the United States and assumed that role.
A: See my response re: recognition of a president.
Davidian: Bush was judged on his performance, not the source of his family’s political power.
A: Exactly. Judged on his performance.
Davidian: Just think how a CNN report on any of Bush’s state of the union speeches would be received if rather than being based on the content of what he delivered to Congress it was based on allegations that some of the Bush family holdings were built on nefarious activities!
A: A news agency’s job is to report on a single event. Intellectuals and voters’ “job” is to judge the president on his overall performance. As admitted by you above.
Davidian: The point I made was that the statement made by the president of Armenia is significant and is not a function of how he was elected, his gambling habits, or how he combs his hair.
A: OK.
Davidian: He is the messenger for the state of Armenia.
A: When he approved signing and ratifying protocols that the prevailing majority of his electorate and co-nationals abroad fiercely opposed, was he the messenger for the state of Armenia, too?
Davidian: If you think that Armenia would have been better off telling world powers “go to hell”, claiming all of Western Armenia first then we will talk with Turkey and that the diplomacy resulting in the Protocol was an IR singularity, thus nullifying the effort, then I suggest you craft an analytic study on how you would have solved Armenia’s diplomatic predicament after about 2003 leading up to today, and have it printed in this newspaper.
A: Suggest a local store owner’s wife what to do… in a foreign language, if you so wish. As for me, I wouldn’t expect this president to “claim” Western Armenia first. I’d expect him to put his own house (i.e. the Republic, not a casino) in order first. The diplomacy conducted around the Turkish-Armenian MoU was not a singularity, but some provisions resulting in it actually was as compared to hundreds of other MoUs signed between the states. If an effort goes against the national interests of the country, it should be deftly nullified by a concerned president. Or at the very least the predicament could have been shared (as much as possible) in honesty with his own people: both citizens and diasporans.
No offence to anyone but when the Presidents said no reconciliation without recognition I can remember a turkish saying ” they play alone and they dance alone” Who is taking Armenia seriously? Who is going to listen your dellusion?
Bush’s State of the Union speeches (or any other US president’s for that matter) remind me of speeches by tovarishch Leoind Ilyich Brezhnev at the 24th Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union with general line-affirming content and standing ovations against the backdrop of crumbling economy, widespread poverty, and unemployment.
David Davidian, you can’t be serious about state of the union speeches, can you?
Satrap, Since you reacted, it means you already take Armenia seriously and you already listened to our “delusion.” See, you are number one. Can you count?
Gago,
The reference to Bush’s state of the union speeches was simply an example, not an endorsement. I could have chosen Obama’s Cairo speech from two years ago. Ex: What would the audience have thought if CNN reported, not on the content of his speech, but only on fact that he was part African or some other item, in an analysis of his message.
David Davidian
http://www.regionalkinetics.com
Satrap,
It must be reassuring to our enemies that it appears more important [to some Armenians] who proclaims that Armenia wants Turks to recognize the genocide of the Armenians than the actual demand itself.
David Davidian
http://www.regionalkinstics.com
Everyone here has reason with their posts. I salute you people!!!
May I add my bit though and/or try to explain things from past experiences.
A.great Turkey is not disposed to accomodate any of our demands as yet.They will ,however, in order to show to the International diplomacy(read Govt.s)plus the public that they -if not changed- are chaning.Wahtever gestures they offer,meaning some very few intellectuals and or semi intellecutals and their followers,even on the streets of Istanbulla and or Anlkara, are nada mas(nothing more ) blowing dust into the eyes of the aforementioned.Some very infinitissmall ¨throw-ins¨(that may occur) such as ceding Mounts Ararat and Ani Ruins(which they should have done, when TARC was on in NY)in order to FURTHER SHOW TO THE world that their CHANGE IS AUTHENTIC-this as an example I am bringing in.
B.Lands ,our lands are actually mainly occupied by KURDS.my dear firends.In order to really try to get to them -in the not too far future-hopefully,we have to make CONTACT WITH kurds ,whether oin Brussels,where I believ e they have their Govt. in exile or wherever..also through Kurds in the AREA….great Turkey will not and is not th owner of those lands.But remember more than 16 million kurds live there AND TO BE FAIR,they have been alongside us for millenia,even before we accepted christianity and they were introduced to Islam by conquering Moguls, seljuks…
C.In my viewpoint it is much more tangible to begin our Claim at the Intt´l instances >THROUGH OUR BAR ASSOCIATION 500 strong members, some Int´l law attorneys and having alongside the political party reps. ,plus our most important historians.I would suggest to them to firstly prepare and Lodge CLAIM for BLOOD MONEY.This has precedent(s) bothe Jew from Nazis and also-though small-but the Insurance Compnies compensating heirs .That is those who are heirs to survivors and/or just plain heirs.Again:-
D.great Turkey may then come up and declare bankruptcy an/or decline saying they also are going through Economic crunch-like all other or most nations .What then?
E. When the Giant Oil companies by passed Armenia the shortes route of the Oil pipelin-go figure out why?-they are at present -so far -being paying to greart Turkey $1.600.000.000.-(billion 600 hundred million bucks to Turkey.If and when we win the CASE at above instances. we can mention that these companies in extension their Govt.,s ought to oblige Armenians and pay paart of that-setting it aside to AGBU and people in Armenia through same or whichever the people decide on.
E.AS to ^Pres Serge Sarkissian´s latest declaration( a bit late though, but O.K.) However, <He should and I am certain he also -as counterpart turkish diplomacy will yavash yavash,by and by drop hints that these entail restituions.Not just Beg your pardon and over…..
To surmise, there are other questions referred to above as to legitimacy of his Gov.t this that.Please…Ladies and Gentlemen ,go back a few yrs, when presidential elections were on and he did not GARNER ENOUGH; the ARF,plus Arthur Bagdasarian´s Orinats Yergir , they surpassed LTP…
This is recent history we all know that.Now what will happen ,no one can guess. Thence,please let us concentrate on one thing that I prefer more than any…,which is;-
Our own house is …if not in shambles,or fragmented(hopefully not) but U N O R G A N I Z E D .we NEED TO RELY ON OUR hUGE COLLECTIVITIES OVERSEA AND HOMELAND , THAT ARE DORMANT-NIRHOGH )that of professional colleagues associations members .I dare say a 100 thousand strong Both our manpower and through them ECONOMIC POWER IS WITH THEM.We should thank our political parties and spiritual entities for work done so far,plus indeed all other compatriotic, benevolent sportive etc., etc., establishments but these are not enough.please let us begin forming into the rest 10 other fields in every township that is Armenian-dense.WE now have only in a few such , the 1. Engineers&Sciences,2.The Health/Medical,3.The BAR(Law),4. The Sportive.The Jewellers(this should enlap furnishings and furnitures.plus the other ten.Within therse Interporfessional Associaitons we shall then search and elect oru ELITE(3 from each field of Prof.) for their merits A.One most advanced in his/her Profession,One , culutrally,nat´l ,Int´l and with networking capacity, Third economically most advanced.Note one compliments the oter two.Then ask our politco to join in and one each form our 3 spiritual denominations Thus we get REal Representation frm REal participation.Not just by money spenidn a DN ASKING PEOPLE TO VOTE FOR DELEGATES.rESPECTFULLY,
g.p.
Samvel J. — Where and how would Serj learn that wagging finger is inappropriate and uncultured? Maybe only from his days as Soviet apparatchik watching Khrushchev…
Armen:
Don’t plan to interfere in the excellent debate you and David are conducting.
However, would like to comment on one of the Q&As:
[Davidian: Sargsian is recognized as the president of Armenia…
A: By whom? There is no such a thing as recognition of a president except for official announcement of results by the Elections Commission and his or her swearing-in ceremony.]
By member countries that constitute the UN, the so-called ‘World Community’: that’s all that counts on the International scene.
Example: even though G.W. Bush was ‘selected’ by the US Supreme Court, which illegally (in the view of many) interfered in Sovereign State of Florida’s State elections, in January 2001, it was President Bush, whether millions of Democrats and Independents liked it or not. When an Act of Congress was signed into Law by Bush, it became the law of the land, whether about half of Americans considered him illegitimate or not.
Heads of State of other counties meet Mr. Sarkisian as the official Head of State of Armenia – not any one of the other contenders that ran for Presidency of Armenia and lost – fairly or not.
Avery,
Incorrect, I’m afraid. The Republic of Armenia, as a subject of international law, is recognized by member countries that constitute the UN, the so-called world community, not its president. There is no such a thing as “recognition of president”. Borders can be recognized. States can be recognized. Presidents—however they are elected, pardon, selected in Serj’s or Bush’s cases—do not require recognition. My question “By whom?” referred to domestic feelings about this president in that he was not elected by the majority of his citizens and thus enjoys no broad-based confidence and public trust. Whether heads of state of other counties meet Serj as the official head of state of Armenia does not change this sad domestic actuality. Is he serving heads of state of other counties or his own people? None of the presidents, except for LTP’s very first election in early 1990s, is a legitimately elected president.
One other little thing, Avery. You already sort of interfered “in the excellent debate [me] and David are conducting” by showing bias in your May 18, 2011 post: “excellent post Mr. Davidian.” Things must be called by their names (sorry if this sounds as a reprimand): I’d eagerly join your and others’ ranks bashing denialist Turks in the blogosphere, but I’d likewise go ahead and criticize my own president whenever I feel he’s done wrong. This doesn’t make me less patriotic than Davidian or yourself. After all, I have a constitutional right to criticize my government. Patriotism doesn’t mean apologia.
Armen:
re: “This doesn’t make me less patriotic than Davidian or yourself.”
Nowhere have I said or implied you were ‘less patriotic’.
I hope so too Papken, but that is why we have to become a stronger nation along with the Russian and the Western (US & France) Diaspora to come-together to strengthen ourselves economically and in every which way, so that neither Russia nor the US doesn’t impose on our goverment the despecable protocols. We have to become a stronger nation also to be friendly to the majority of the population in Armenia and not just a few of the rich, but for the well being of the majority. Better jobs, etc.
I´m afraid my long posts do not attract much attn: thence Here goes..
I was closely following last pres. elections in RA. Serj Sarkissian´s REpublican party did not garner enough votes. If you do not recall I shall bring it to your attn:
The ARF saved the situation along came then artur Bagdassarian´s Orinats Yerkir, thus Topping off Serj Sarkissian votes.
In my viewpoint this was much better thean going back to LTP.With all respect to all.
However, my personal position as to contemporary Electoral System is rotten.
it started with old Greek then based on old English Law, then French and American REvolutions…thus becoming the present system which IS BASED ON TWO main factors.
1. If you HAVE ENOUGH FUNDS,AS AN EXAMPLE TOMORROW i WIN THE 150 MILLION Euro Lottery, then start placing all my friends(or promise to place them) in important posts, also family and then just plain public, ask them to vote for me to be elected to Parliament or Congress,though I mam not endowed with any Governing merits..
2. I am a political party member with many followers.Again with some party funds lot of Ads this that conventions then am elected…
This not what -at least American fathers of the past declared- FROM THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE AND FOR THE PEOPLE.nO IT DEFINITELY IS NOT.
mY tHESES, HAS BEEN REGISTERED AT iNTELLECTUAL PROPERTY IN d.c. ALSO yEREVAN. ENTITLED:-
“A New Concept of Electoral System and Governance”. some 5/6 yrs ago also published in Hay Gyank Weekly,L.A.
Mr. Palandjian:
re: “I´m afraid my long posts do not attract much attn:”
Can’t speak for others, but for me it is not really the length of your posts. There are many other posts much longer than your longest ones.
It’s your unusual way of writing: the unique construction of sentences and random mixing of upper and lower case letters is not what I am used to, so, at least for me, is very difficult to read and absorb.
As I have noted elsewhere, you have a lot of wisdom to impart to us. And many times I make the extra effort, but it does take extra time and effort, and oftentimes it is somewhat overwhelming.
Hye, Serge is not politically wise.. His leadership is still “learning on the job” – making
too many errors – which harm the fledgling nation of Haiastan. He and his cohorts are all the wrong people, especially during this most vital period of history of the our homeland, Haiastan! (Protocols, eliminated?)
Hye Pai;. I agree! Sargisyan and his cohorts are all, inexperienced, incompetent, and
have not the right to be governing our fledgling Haiastan in this time of our Armenian history. If Serge were an honest individual he, and his ilk, would step aside and allow elections to proceed – to elect a patriot… the leader who is honestly dedicated to the concept of our Hai Tahd… a patriot.
I agree with Armen in that we are all very patriotic in our ways but when it comes to our president or any of our official govt figures pissing all over their people for their sorry pocket and their riches should be criticized and brought up…… as much as I don’t want to but we have to face it… there are thugs like our current govt that are not as patriotic as most of us are..
Therefore, it is always recommended to point out the wrongs as well no matter who it is especially our president who to this day has not shown one bit of progress in his actions that we can validate to be A GREAT STEP TOWARD betterment of Armenia…
God Bless
Armen and David
Both of you have made exelent points. BUT! We must not forget that Serge (just like any other president) is a puppet of powerful organizations and does precisely as he is told.
Armen I agree with you that Serge is not performing the maximum of his potential, but also absolutely agree with David that we gained a tactical advantage by sighning the protocols. As for what would have happened if Turks had ratified it, I think there were MASTER/GAMBLER/DEAL-MAKER/NEGOTIATORS(s) behind the idea of protocols, (not from Armenia) and they would have somehow bring up the issue of the Genocide (as they did) and interupt the process, (since we were not obligated to ratify the protocols) which would have again constitue to a tactical advantage (maybe not as much as now). I think it was a win/win situation and Turks took the bait.
I tink we should continue our healthy disagreements just like Republicans and Democrats. That ‘s the only way forward, as long as we have the same goal. 1) Recognition of the Genocide by Turkey. 2) Legitimize Artsakh as an Armenian Republic. 3) Western Armenia. 4) Javakh+Ajaria.
AR,
That Serge, just like any other president, is a puppet of sinister supranational, supragovernmental internationalist power elites is understood. Therefore, your point is taken in most part. I’d disagree that a singular measure in the realm of foreign policy (read: signing an MoU with a neighbor-state and associated pronouncements) could, by itself, be an indicator of the potential scale of a president’s performance. Even if we agree that we gained a tactical advantage by signing the protocols (which I personally think we did only by chance not by means of a thoroughly-calculated policy and its possible ramifications), this “achievement” of a president in just one of his chief responsibility areas cannot be portrayed, as some here tend to represent, as significant. It has given his citizens and co-ethnics abroad nothing but commotion. Thus, a question: whose interests is this president serving?
I also disagree that the behind-the-scenes sinister forces have interrupted the protocol process by bringing up the issue of genocide. As we witnessed, the process was interrupted by bringing up the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh. That the process might have been interrupted later by bringing up the issue of genocide is a sheer speculation and demonstrates once again that Serj’s caving in the outside pressure was an adventure, not a measure by a concerned, responsible politician.
Also, we were obligated to ratify the protocols. One of the provisions in the document that bore official signatures of the contracting parties urged their respective parliaments to ratify it within a designated period of time.
Lastly, disagreements between Republicans and Democrats are in no way “healthy.” The same supranational, supragovernmental power elites make sure the general policy line is unaffected by fictitious disagreements between the two parties which, in essence, only exist to maintain the façade of democracy.
Armen,
You say that: As we witnessed, the process was interrupted by bringing up the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh.
I ask, how do you know?? By the same chance the process (of ratification of protocols) might not have been interupted if the issue of Genocide was not raised by Constitutional Court of Armenia. I actually think it was not because of Karabakh because technically there was nothing about Karabakh in the protocols.
You say that: Also, we were obligated to ratify the protocols. One of the provisions in the document that bore official signatures of the contracting parties urged their respective parliaments to ratify it within a designated period of time.
I ask: Then why they did not?? Again there was nothing about Karabakh in the protocols!!!
As for Democrats and Republicans, unless you preffer Theocracy, Communism or Dictatorship, I think the modern day American government has proven to work better than the rest. You can call it a facade of democracy or fake democracy but in the results it works better than the rest, at least so far. And what I mean by better? GDP (gross domestic product), Military Power, Average Life Expectancy, etc. Don’t get me wrong, it is not perfect, but then what is perfect??????? You know why the strugle of Democrats and Republicans work to some extent (better than others), because genuine disagreements and criticism are necessary between the government parties. Like Winston Churchill said: “Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things”. So what do you think happens after disagreemnts betwee Dems and Reps??? They start criticising each other.
Also, you should know that any act or any speech of any president is a subject of a potential commotion. Especially something in case of our protocols’ magnitute. At least you and I and many others (here) agree that we gained a tactical advantage. Right?? Of course there would be many confused people who get their information from their neighbors or yard gatherings. How about I say that in this case we needed some commotion too. Why? External politics. Maybe so the Turkish society would not think that every Armenian in the world was dreaming about signing the protocols.
Lastly,
You asked: Thus, a question: whose interests is this president serving?
I say definitely NOT Turkish or Azerbaijani interests. It may not be enough for you, and I would agrre with you, but at least he is not like Levon who almost returned some of the teritories around Karabakh during the later years of his presidency. He would have, had he not been stopped!! But not to get off the subject, I think Serj is surving the interests of Armenia, its citizens. No point to say he serves diaspora’s interests because Diaspora’s interests is whatever is in the best interests of Armenia. And because we have such a strong diaspora in USA, Russia, Europe, Canada, South America, Middle East, I think Serj-IK has no other option but to serve the interests of Armenia. Things are changing faster than ever in Armenia, especially in the last couple of years. Hopefuly Armenian government will keep the momentum!
AR,
It is widely accepted by international observers and diplomats that the protocol process was interrupted because the Turks reneged to the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh immediately after signing the protocols and before their submission to Armenia’s Constitutional Court. What might have or might not have occurred had Turks not reneged pertains to the realm “what ifs” that I’m not willing to get into.
The protocols were so poorly drafted and so dubious in letter and spirit that we can discuss them ‘til cows come home and to no effect. To me, one thing is clear: there were preconditions in those documents and intellectuals, by definition, tend to look not only at whether preconditions were stated explicitly but whether they were in fact reflected implicitly. And they were reflected implicitly. Semantic gymnastics that Serj and his foreign minister have applied to the document doesn’t alter the fact. Yes, technically there was nothing explicitly stated about Karabakh in the protocols, but (1)Turks reiterated after signing them that the border wouldn’t be opened without “progress” on Nagorno-Karabakh; and (2)a clause in the protocols about the commitment of the signatories “to respect and ensure respect for the principles of equality, sovereignty, non intervention in internal affairs of other states, territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers” raised serious concerns. Territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers of Azerbaijan, too? With Artsakh included?
You say: “By the same chance the process (of ratification of protocols) might not have been interrupted if the issue of Genocide was not raised by Constitutional Court of Armenia.” But, as with your example with Nagorno-Karabakh absent in the protocols, the issue of genocide was likewise not explicitly present in the decision of the Constitutional Court of Armenia. Moreover, the Decision of the Court explicitly stated that “the protocols were in conformity with the Constitution of the Republic of Armenia.”
You ask: “Then why we did not ratify the protocols? There was nothing about Karabakh in [them].” Explicitly, yes, there was nothing. Implicitly, as I noted above, “respect of territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers [of other states]”, could be interpreted to Armenian side’s peril. In addition, there were a couple of other provisions that could present danger for the Armenian side, such as recognition of former treaties and the dreadful subcommission on historical dimension. Most importantly, having received the go-ahead from its Constitutional Court, Armenia was waiting for Turkey to ratify. Turks did not, because the Azeri revisionist factor for Nagorno-Karabakh apparently had a strong impact.
About a commotion that any act or any speech of any president is a subject of. I take your point. But, dear AR, life of ordinary Armenians is nothing but the commotion under this or past presidents. Does this seem normal to you?
I concur that this president is not serving Turkish or Azerbaijani interests, but I’m sure he’s not serving the Armenian citizens’ interests either. He’s preoccupied to a greater extent with his own interests: preservation of power and self-enrichment being the dearest. As for LTP who almost returned some of the territories around Karabakh, I fully agree, but would like to hold back and see how this one would behave. So far I see no essential difference between LTP’s version for peaceful solution (withdrawal from territories around Karabakh—return of refugees—interim status for the region) and what Serj keeps saying based on Madrid Principles: withdrawal from territories around Karabakh—return of refugees—interim status for the region.
I can see this sad but unavoidable discrepancy in the assessments of a president handling his job in my judgment as a citizen and yours as (am I correct?) a Diasporan. It’s high time for the Diaspora to integrate more assertively in the internal political processes of the Homeland. Maybe then our views will converge.
Armen:
re: “...in my judgment as a citizen and yours as (am I correct?) a Diasporan.”
Does this say that you are a citizen of Republic of Armenia ?
Currently residing in Armenia ?
Armen
You said: 1)Turks reiterated after signing them that the border wouldn’t be opened without “progress” on Nagorno-Karabakh; and (2)a clause in the protocols about the commitment of the signatories “to respect and ensure respect for the principles of equality, sovereignty, non intervention in internal affairs of other states, territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers” raised serious concerns. Territorial integrity and inviolability of frontiers of Azerbaijan, too? With Artsakh included?
Excelent point.
1) Progress is a very intangible word. Any follow up meeting between the three presidents (Russian, Armenian, Azeri) could have been defined as a “progress”.
2) as for the teritoarial integrity (point 2), I strongly believe Turks were dreaming to ratify the protocols until the Armenian Constitutional Court said it is in line with the constitution, stating it has nothing against pursuing the recognition of the Armenian Genocide and WESTERN ARMENIA. Maybe not the Genocide as much as the mentioning of WESTERN ARMENIA interupted the process. They tought by pushing for the progress in NK they will divert the attention to NK, but were ready to sign the protocols at any cost without any progress, just to have some fresh documents which would ban Armenia from further quests of claiming any territories. But, like I said, they took the bait. I think the protocols were never meant to be signed as they appeared. It was no accident that the protocols were so poorly drafted and so dubious in letter and spirit. Turks liked it and tought it was a perfect opportunity for them to cease and to seal the question of any new land claims by Armenians once and for all. That is why they did not keep their Azeri brothers fully informed and rushed to make the deal as quick as possible. But they failed to understand that there were some MASTER DEAL-MAKERS behind all that.
As for high times for Diaspora to integrate into internal political processes of Homeland I think never before Diaspora has been more involved in the both internal and external political processes of ARmenia as it is today. And it will only grow bigger.
You are correct I am from Diaspora :)
Avery,
An RoA citizen. On an educational exchange program in CA. More personal info? Does it change anything for the views I’ve expressed?
AR,
You base your judgments on speculations and I’m not comfortable with this, sorry. I’d eagerly accept them but on one condition: if you were one of the master deal-makers standing behind the whole protocol saga. Are you? If you’re not (neither am I), how can we debate when you speculate and I rely on factual evidence? Even if we accept that the whole story was a hoax, as you seem to do, it is clear that those master deal-makers should have been standing behind both sides, not only the Turkish one. Do you agree? Because their ultimate goal, I assume (your speculations are contagious), was advancing their interests in the broader region, not just Armenia’s interests. Turks might have taken the bait, as you say, but so did Armenians. Therefore, for Armenia it was an adventure: an ill-conceived, irresponsibly-handled adventure with only benefit being a tactical foreign policy gain by some quirk of fate. To cut the current president a slack for this against the backdrop of how he handles his job inside the country is, to me, immature (no personal offense meant).
Yes dear Sonia, Serjik watching too much videos from old an new world leaders!!like Obama said with his “wagging finger” during 2008 campaign, “It is time to change”
Ummm, we’re still awaiting the response from your “diaspora” as to whether you’ll debate us or not! Can we expect an answer sometime in this century?
I have to agree with ARmen especially on the point where he said the our President is after HIS OWN interests and not the citizens of Armenia…. If he cared about the citizens interests, we did not have
people leaving the country because they can’t handle the situation there.. and those who cant’ leave they can’t survive or go far because the govt does not allow them..i was told that if people does not pick a side.. either with Serj or alone, they will not get far.. and those who decides not to join the side, those are the people who get help from Diaspora…Armen jan correct me if I am wrong..
The country is without any rules and regulations.. many dont’ survive under these lawless rules and regulations.. people are doing everything to leave that night mare behind…people who have no connection in the govt, they have to work their butt off but as i said, everything is controlled by Serj and his thugs… if they don’t want you to advance they will stop you without even blink of an eye..
The country is without order, without strong leaders and without promise if we keep these thugs in power…
Gayane
Robert….and we have told you IN PLAIN ENGLISH many many imes.. there is nothing to debate… can we expect YOU to get it through your think, ottoman style brain of yours????
Is that a possibility in this century????
G
Dear Armen,
With all due respect, I think you are missing the point. The master dealmakers are on our side. Now if you go back and read again all my comments from that perspective I hope you would not see any speculations. Maybe it will make more sense to you. Unless you give Serjik so much credit and think he has balls of steel to invite Turkish president to Armenia and start this whole thing on his own, then my theory of what has happened perfectly makes sence. Now, the whole international pressure for NOT ratifying the protocols, is on Turkey, not Armenia. Signing the protocols was the biggest mistake for Turkey since the Genocide. AND NO I A NOT BEHIND THOSE PROTOCOLS. Time to get a little more serious.
You said: Even if we accept that the whole story was a hoax, as you seem to do, it is clear that those master deal-makers should have been standing behind both sides, not only the Turkish one. Do you agree?
I already told you that you misunderstood about on whose side the deal makers are. Plus,
The whole story is not a HOAX. I never said it was. Again you have missed the point.
What I said was ” I think the protocols were never meant to be signed as they appeared.
After the Armenia’s Constitutonal Court’s approval of the protocols (the way of approval),
the protocols suddenly do not appear the same as they did before, although nothing in the protocols has changed. There is no speculation. Pure facts.
If it still does not make sence, I guess there is a time for everything!!! I am very currious if you have read the Constitutional Court’s approval of the protocols.
Anyways, without any irony I respect your oppinion. Have a great time in CA.
Dear Gayane,
When criticising the current situation of Armenia we have to know why we are doing it, what we should be expecting, if there is a model that we want to copy, etc.
There is always more room for criticising the government, be it in USA, or Armenia.
Do we want to compare todays Armenia with USA, Japan or with yesterday’s Armenia? Last year’s? 10 years ago?
Don’t get me wrong, criticising is good, even when it is a waste of time. But we need to start measuring progress too. Armenia, Armenian government, the mentality of its citizens is changing faster than ever, and in a positive way. We can’t expect overnight results. As for Serjik is all for his pockets, yes and no. Yes because after all he is a politician. No or actually not anymore as much as he used to because there are bunch of international spotlights directed at him. He can’t get away as easy as he used to. Have you been following the recent changes in the Armenian government?? There is so much to say, but I will conclude it by saying that the RA is better than it used to be. Much better.
Robert,
There is only one condition to take your invitation. PAY ATTENTION!
You convince your government to sign the protocols. One of the protocols has a clause in it that says forming a commision of historians to study in depth what has happened. WHY ARE THEY SCARED TO SIGN IT?
GET IT???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
IF YOUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT DO IT THEN IT IS A CLEAR SIGNAL FOR YOU NOT TO WASTE YOUR TIME AND FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO WORK ON. (LIKE WHAT WILL HAPPEN WHEN MAVI MARMARA REACHES CLOSER TO GAZA STRIP NEXT MONTH?)
Robert:
didn’t you promise not to come back ?
why are you still here ?
Armen:
re: ‘More personal info?’
Nope.
re: ‘Does it change anything for the views I’ve expressed?’
Well, where one has lived and lives definitely colors how one sees things – and hence views they express.
I was born in Yerevan, currently a US Citizen. It took me many, many years living – actually living – in th US to clearly see how the West operates in the world – which is diametrically opposite of what I thought first few years of living in the Diaspora.
You yourself said: ‘…sad but unavoidable discrepancy in the assessments of a president handling his job in my judgment as a citizen and yours as (am I correct?) a Diasporan. ‘
So you yourself state that there is unavoidable discrepancy between how AR, a Diasporan, sees president’s performance, and yours – RoA citizen and having recently lived in Armenia for some years (I assume), although currently temporarily in the US.
AR,
Even if I go back and read again your comments from the perspective that the whole world has suddenly fell in love with beautiful Armenian eyes, your statement: “the master dealmakers are on our side” is a pure speculation. I never argued that supranational manipulative forces are at play on the issue. Therefore, I don’t think I missed your point. But I disagree that these sinister forces, whom you call “master dealmakers”, are on our side. Why would they be? What essentially happened in or with Armenia so that it can now attract attention of big shots? Oil was found? Huge goldmines? Nuclear bomb is being developed? Or a liberal-democratic, elected, and responsible government now rules the country? The only thing I can think about is that apparently some geopolitical emphases might have shifted. If it is so, this doesn’t mean that master dealmakers now stopped pursuing their agendas and started defending Armenia’s interests. I share your view that Serj didn’t have balls of steel to invite Turkish president and start the whole process. Of course he was whistled up and did what he was required to do. But this doesn’t mean that it was done because, whoever the puppeteers were, they were “on our side.” In the same manner Gul might have been pressured to accept Serj’s offer and start the whole thing. And if both of them were pressured (and I bet they were), I think it could only be an indication that outsiders had some agenda for advancing their geostrategic, economic, and military interests in the broader region. Opening of the border between Armenia and Turkey could have been a way to achieve them. Does it mean they “sided” with Armenia? I strongly doubt so. Sorry, we stick to our guns. I respect your opinion, too.
Armen,
You say: The only thing I can think about is that apparently some geopolitical emphases might have shifted.
I say: Bingo.
You say: If it is so, this doesn’t mean that master dealmakers now stopped pursuing their agendas and started defending Armenia’s interests.
I say: Unless you know what is on their agenda, this statement is what speculation is. Assuming we both speculate about this topic, mine are based on the outcome of the protocols (so far). What about yours????? It can’t be the outcome!!! (so far).
You say: But this doesn’t mean that it was done because, whoever the puppeteers were, they were “on our side.
I again say: Unless you know who the puppeteers were, and what the puppeteers did it for and who’s side they were/are on, your statement is what speculation is. Since we both may not know the answers, I base my speculations on the outcome of the protocols. What about you???
You say: In the same manner Gul might have been pressured to accept Serj’s offer and start the whole thing.
I say: Serjik’s offer itself was a pressure for Gul, because for years they have been screaming about “zero problems with neighbors”. Declining that offer would have contradicted one of AKP party’s main agendas.
But, no matter what you and I think, factual results is what counts. My views and analyses may seem as a speculation for you, and of course you are entitled to your oppinion, BUT, at least they don’t contradict the results of what has happened (protocols+aftermath), at least so far.
You say: Does it mean they “sided” with Armenia? I strongly doubt so. Sorry, we stick to our guns.
I say: They sided with Armenia or not, Armenia gained a huge advantage, while Turkey gained a huge pressure from the international observers. According to my speculations, the gained Armenian advantage is so huge that it will indirectly positively effect the NK issue with Azerbaijan, because of Turkey’s stance on NK. Now Azerbaijan for the first time is “begging” to get the Fizuli and the Agdam regions back.
Sorry I don’t stick to my gun, because I get along with my ego very well. I stick to the achieved results and common sence.
I must also confess that debating with you is a great exercise! Be well compatriot!
AR jan? Better ARmenia in whose eyes? That is the question.. well for the govt thugs of course Armenia is much better because they own pretty much EVERYTHING along with Russia.. Russia is like the grand ship who directs what needs to be done, who can own the business, who can buy this or that..
lets be honest here.. serj and his mafia did NOTHING to advance or better the simple citizens lives… i hear it, and i see it from people who still live in Armenia.. people who have no connection to any govt officials or are super rich to buy themselves out of anything or buy themselves in anything…
Lets not forget.. Serj HAS a great example on how to run his country.. he simply needs to obtain the blueprint of how US does.. of course US is not perfect in any means but it has rules, regulations, processes, law and order…so why is it that Serj is lackng to impose such law and regulations, to promote democracy, to promote prosperity by allowing Armenian Diaspora become part of mother land in terms of letting them buy lands, businesses, ect ect ect without throwing problems an obstacles at thm.. i personally think this: it is because IRAN DA CHI DZUM.. basically it does not rub him the right way to go that path…. so instead of saying lets critize but also have a game plan as to what we can do or what game plan we can use as an example….well I just provided few examples our President can implement to show he CARES and THINKS about his people and country..not much but he has to start from somewhere right?
Again, I may be wrong how i think but i truly believe that Serj can do much more but he rather just not do it.. and let the country be without order, withour law, without strong beliefs, without strong footing, firmness when it comes to Turkey and her games, ect ect ect…
Anyway, i truly enjoy yours and Armen’s comments.. i learn a great deal..both have great points… .thank you both for your love, passion and dedication to Armenia and her Cause…
Well, AR, if you think it’s “bingo” for some geopolitical emphases that might have shifted in the region and were reflected in the protocol process, then it’s in no way indicative of a fact that the master dealmakers were “on Armenia’s side.” It only re-asserts the fact that master dealmakers are always on their own side. If their tactical considerations suggest being more amicable with Armenia in this stage, it by no means denotes that they are “on our side”.
You claim you base your speculations on the outcome of the protocols. Essentially, what was the outcome except for a tactical foreign policy gain by default for Armenia? You call it “huge”, I don’t think it’s huge. You speculate it was done by Serj knowingly, I tend to believe that, like Gul, Serj was just a string-puppet, therefore the advantage that was “gained”, to me, happened by a quirk of fate and/or as a result of outside machinations in which Armenia was too minor a player to partake. Therefore, to give credit to Serj, as some here attempt to do, for how he “handled” the protocol process and the aftermath (his verbal pronouncements) is, to me, unfounded. Did the outcome contribute to the well-being of the Armenian people? Did it contribute to the advancement of national cause? Did it contribute to the establishment of diplomatic relations with Turkey? You speculate that “the gained Armenian advantage is so huge that it will indirectly positively affect the NK issue with Azerbaijan.” How do you know? Based on what Azerbaijan is now saying about Fizuli and Agdam regions? I’ve read their foreign minister’s statement. They’re not “begging” to get them back. They say the withdrawal of Armenian forces from all security regions around NK must start with Fizuli and Agdam. Do you really think Azeris will stop right there if Serj dares to agree to this? I’d also love to see what will happen to Serj in Armenia if he agrees, but that’s a separate issue… If he thinks that by giving away two regions he’ll have the border with Turkey open, then he must think twice that Turks can close the border anytime, whereas two regions will be gone irretrievably. Instinctive smartness and wiliness are no substitutes for intellectualism, educated professionalism, devotion to the national cause, and accountability to the people: qualities that Serj and his thugs clearly lack.
You claim that “Serjik’s offer itself was a pressure for Gul.” I partially agree, but you said several times (and I agreed with you) that there were behind-the-scene sinister forces behind the process. If they were, than how could Serjik’s offer be a pressure for Gul by Serj’s initiative only? How could one component of an entire process, staged by master deal-makers, act by his own initiative? I think both Gul and Serj were puppets and since they both were, it leads many observers to believe that the process was not meant to be unilaterally pro-Armenian or unilaterally pro-Turkish. Rather, it suggests that both sides were played upon each other in order to pave the way for some third party’s (or most probably parties’) interests. How can this not be clear?
You claim your “views and analyses don’t contradict the results of what has happened (protocols + aftermath).” But what essentially happened, AR? Armenia signed the protocols with some humiliating provisions in them – Turkey reiterated after signing that ratification is linked to progress on NK – Armenia’s Constitutional Court then decided that protocols were in conformity with the Constitution of Armenia – and then Serj suspended them because the process stalled in Turkey. This turn of events, not the grand clairvoyant brainpower of our rulers, has given a minor tactical gain to Armenia as a result. Am I seeing the results differently from what actually happenned on the ground?
Dear Gayane, thank you for your kind words. I started skimming over the AW just recently, but your name is almost everywhere and your patriotism is impressive. Unfortunately (and this is not their fault), the Diasporans tend to see things mostly from without, whereas Armenians living in the Republic see things from within. For us, it’s more important what our rulers bring in for bettering of Armenia in terms of people’s well-being, and not how submissive they are to outsiders’ games. I agree with you, the Diaspora must become a part of the motherland to see things the way we see them. But will the ruling thugs allow this? They’ll do anything for anyone to stay in power…
Armen, :) :)
When did I ever say that Serj’s offer was Serj’s initiative only?? or his initiative at all??? Read what I wrote again.
You ask: Did the outcome contribute to the well-being of the Armenian people?
My answer: I don’t even know where to start from. But to keep it short—It takes ten years in average for immigrants from third world countries (especially from former USSR) to adapt to the laws and regulations, lifestyle and philosophy of the USA or even Europe, after they migrate. ONLY MAGIC WAND CAN CONTRIBUTE TO THE WELL BEING OF ARMENIAN PEOPLE IN ARMENIA IN THE TIMEPERIOD OF ONE YEAR (to a point where majority are happy). What do protocols have to do with well being of the Armenian people in the short term??????????? The only thing you can say is the opening of the border (right?). The border is closed only officialy. There is still huge trade going on with Turkey by borders being “closed”.
You keep on isisting that it was a “quirk of fate” and not carefully planned. I strongly believe that nothing in (geo)politics of that magnitude just happens by a “quirk of fate” especially when you (too) insist that there were “sinister” forces behind it. Maybe it is still a qurk of fate according to what Serjik or some in his cabinet think. (but not for you who admits that there are “sinister forces out there”).
You are too concentrated on how Serj performs in the internal politics where the “sinister” forces don’t care as much and are not involved as much, although they are getting more and more involved as we speak. Like I told you in my first comment to you ever, YOU ARE RIGHT, I don’t think his performance is the best of his potential either. But THIS is a totaly seperate issue. Has NOTHING to do with protocols.
You claim that Diasporans tend to see things from without. Obviously true, but not necessarily ineffective. We still need to agree on how to measure the effectiveness of being able to see things from”without”. Maybe, that is exactly what Serjik DOES NOT need today (to be seen from without, so he can continue what he was doing years ago). It seems like it is not enough for him to perform better when he is only seen-judged-criticised from within.
You say: They say the withdrawal of Armenian forces from all security regions around NK must start with Fizuli and Agdam.
OK
The key here is “around NK” whereas before they were concentrated on NK itself.
Do you see that there is a change?? The change is that now they are offering something more than before. Wheter it is a good offer or not, they are offering more. It is clearly a progress for Armenia. How much it will change is a different issue. It shows either one of the two things: 1) They are making their final warnings and if we don’t take the offer, they will start a war. Or, 2)They are retreating in their current strategy, whereas before, correct me if I am wrong, they have never than that. They are accepting now what the P.M. of Turkey, Erdogan was offering 1 year ago. (about Fizuli and Agdam).
You ask: Do you really think Azeris will stop right there if Serj dares to agree to this?
I say: Obviously not. But who says Serje will agree to this?? If Serge agrees consider you have won thiS debate. I will come back and congradulate you!
After all this debate we have been having you are still asking me: But what essentially happened, AR? Armenia signed the protocols with some humiliating provisions in them – Turkey reiterated after signing that ratification is linked to progress on NK – Armenia’s Constitutional Court then decided that protocols were in conformity with the Constitution of Armenia – and then Serj suspended them because the process stalled in Turkey. This turn of events, not the grand clairvoyant brainpower of our rulers, has given a minor tactical gain to Armenia as a result. Am I seeing the results differently from what actually happenned on the ground?
Armen please take your time to read the following: What happened is that after the Constitutional court’s approval ( “The RA Constitutional Court also finds that the provisions of the Protocol on Development of Relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey cannot be interpreted or applied in the legislative process and application practice of the Republic of Armenia as well as in the interstate relations in a way that would contradict the provisions of the Preamble to the RA Constitution and the requirements of Paragraph 11 of the Declaration of Independence of Armenia”. More precisely, the court decision stipulated that the agreement must not contradict Paragraph 11 of the Declaration of Independence, which is the section that angered Ankara. It states, “The Republic of Armenia stands in support of the task of achieving international recognition of the 1915 Genocide in Ottoman Turkey and Western Armenia.”) the USA, Russia, And EU are still (publicly)forcing Turkey to ratify the protocols. That is what happend!!!
Are you seeing results differently from what actually happened on the ground?????
I don’y know BUDDY! ARE YOU?
Best Regards
Armen jan.. i agree with you…
Thank you for your kind words.. but i wish i was as versed, intelligent about the nitty gritty of Armenia and her state…and as educated about how things work as you are….:)
Came to US in 1989..i was someone in darkness when it came to our history or the background of the Genocide.. it was until i was 23 years old when i first started to open my eyes to what we have never been taught in our schools.. in depth and with great details about history .. our history specifically about Genocide.. i am ashamed to say but i took it upon myself to learn as much as I can..as I learned, i became more and more involved and more more interested in our history especially Genocide.. then little by little i found out my own family members were killed during the Genocide and found out my great grandfather was THE father of all the orphans who he found and reunited with their long lost family.. his entire life was dedicated to reunite those orphans to their families could be in US, France, Russia, Egypt, and around the world.. he died a poor man as he never accecpted money from any of the families he helped.. but he died as one of the richest men in the world because his soul, his heart and his deed was bigger than the universe…. and i am happy to say that I have his blood running through my veins.. because I am as patriotic as he was… :) my grandmother always tells me… vontsa erevum vor Paron Nshani torniknes.. mernes yes qo hayrenaser janin.. :)
i do what i can.. i feel what i feel… i express what i can,,..
but most of all i am blessed to have people like you, Katia K, Boyajian, AR, Avery and few other prominant writers on our pages who with your intellect, passion, brains and dedication teach me even more than what I know.. i learn alot from reading everyones’ comments and I thank you all for being who you are.. the fighters for our cause, our country and our existance…
God Bless you all
Gayane
AR,
My last post was in most part in response to your statement: “I base my speculations on the outcome of the protocols.” That’s the reason I asked you: what essentially, repeat: essentially, was the outcome of the protocols? You, really, didn’t need to explain what a foreign policy adventure—to which Serj caved in—could or could not contribute to the well-being of the Armenian people in the course of one year. Well, it’s actually two years already. And I think had the adventure was well-conceived and potentially beneficial for Armenia, we could have hoped to see, for instance, borders with Turkey opened or at least diplomatic relations established. Of course by “essential outcome” I didn’t mean I’d expect the living standard of Norway for Armenia within two years (you reduced our intellectual dialogue to a Middle Eastern bazaar chat by that). The border with Turkey is closed. The trade going on with Turkey is not “huge.” Cheap, low-quality Turkish products (that most Armenians don’t even buy) appearing in the Armenian market are not the result of a direct bilateral trade between the two countries. They are the result of re-export through the third countries (mainly Georgia). Your information is flawed.
Yes, I tend to believe that for Armenia, repeat: for Armenia, the outcome of the protocol adventure was a “quirk of fate.” Because: (1)Armenia was not one of the sides that, as you say, “carefully” planned it; (2)Armenia did not expect that Turks immediately after signing (and even attempted to include the NK issue in statement after signing) would reiterate the linkage between ratification with the progress on NK; and (3)although I think I do understand that in geopolitics of that magnitude nothing happens by a “quirk of fate”, I also believe the sinister globalist forces (sinister not in quotes) cannot have total control of the world events, which they so passionately wish, because there is no such a thing in nature as “total control.” Things occasionally slip away and no “careful” planning is guaranteed from failure or from a quirk of fate.
I may seem to be “too concentrated” on how Serj performs in the internal politics, because I hate to see the simplicity of minds of other commentators here who view a singular verbal statement of the president separately from his overall performance in both domestic and foreign policies. This is not a separate issue. Both verbal pronouncements and actions of a president must be taken into consideration, especially by those who consider themselves intellectuals, to properly assess his performance. As such, it has immediate connection with the protocols. Because: (1)his actions before and during the protocol process differ from his occasional verbal pronouncements afterwards, creating a confusion; (2)his previous statement that normalization of relations with Turkey would be beneficial to Armenia goes against his current statement that the real economic growth can take place in Armenia without normalizing relations with Turkey, creating a confusion; (3)his readiness to sign and ratify protocols, i.e. reconcile with the Turks, without preconditions (although they were, clearly, present in the protocols) vs. his precondition that “there can be no reconciliation without genocide recognition”, creating a confusion; (4)his suddenly public-spirited statements reflecting on aspirations of the Armenians for their national cause vs. the atmosphere of lawlessness, economic dilapidation, notorious clan system, and wide-spread corruption that he maintains for the same Armenians, creating a confusion.
I also disagree that Azeris now “are offering something more than before” as compared to your speculation that they were concentrated on NK itself before. Where did you get this information? The whole multi-year NK peace process was never about withdrawing from the NK itself. It was about withdrawing from the security areas around it, return of refugees, and the status (interim and then plebiscite) for NK. That Azeris stated that the withdrawal must start with, repeat: start with, Fizuli and Agdam means they’re retreating in their strategy? Sorry, AR, but we should be reading different statements or seeing things differently.
After all this debate you’re still bringing forth the Constitutional Court decision? Have you read the last part? That the protocols are in conformity with the Constitution of Armenia? I never argued there was a provision referring to the Paragraph 11 of the Declaration of Independence in the Court’s decision, but so are several known provisions in the Protocols which this Constitutional Court admitted as being in conformity with the Constitution of Armenia thus paving the way for their ratification by the National Assembly. I don’t know, don’t you see, at the very least, a discrepancy between some provisions in the two documents? If you do, do you still consider it as something monumental that happened on the ground? You say the US, Russia, and EU are still publicly forcing Turkey to ratify the protocols. But by the same token they’d be publicly forcing Armenia to ratify them if the Court’s decision was different. Your point is flawed. Besides, legally, the Turkish Parliament will be ratifying the protocols in which no section referring to Paragraph 11 of Armenia’s Declaration of Independence (which, as you say, “angered” Ankara) can be found. Whether Armenia’s Court included this section in their decision legally should not bother Ankara because, like I said, their Parliament will be ratifying a document which carries their foreign minister’s signature, not Armenian Court’s decision. I think Armenia’s Constitutional Court’s decision had no or very little impact on the ratification impasse because immediately after the signing ceremony and before the Court’s decision Turks restated the linkage between ratification and progress on NK. You seem to downplay this fact, but the NK issue chronologically precedes the Court’s decision in the actions of the Turks. This is what Turks have been reproached for by the international community. This is what actually happened on the ground that I’m seeing. You, obviously,aren’t. Be well!
Armen,
What you write makes all the sense. I f I may add the following,please comment on it , -as is not the rule here.Even my Translated poetry of ¨¨
¨TIS TIME TO RETURN¨ WAS NOT COMMENTED ON.(¨SANG EN HAYER.CAVOK…),I would definitely appreciate more EVEN IF COMMENTS ON IT WERE in NEGATIVE. ´Cause silence bodes something else…that one of our most famous(wortld famous writers, what am I saying) got fed up with Armenians bad good bye changed name and became one whose name and photo was on TIME some 660 yrs ago… namely Michael Arlen(father) He wrote in his small booklet titled¨¨¨¨Änd i was 21:::9 main issue he touched upon there was…Armenians are a jealous Lot and non co operative.Regrettably this has changed very little ,if any..
Anyhow get bck to dialogue here now:-
We do not need borders with great Turkey opned.They closed it and let them open it on their own,not with our or others´reqeust or wishes..
We have good borders with IRAN and RRRRRusia, whether some like it or not.Soon railway link between Irana dn Armenia will be establishesd too. Good we can import from the Koreas, China, any other country..
So that border or the one with Azerbaijan can stay closed as much as they want.
We should not care more about tha.If anything, let them go -like just recenlty they did go try to enter into eU.Read Harut Sassounian how they failed in EU Parliament and also on panarmenian.net
best,
G.p
Armen,
You claim that ” But by the same token they’d be publicly forcing Armenia to ratify them if the Court’s decision was different.”
Speaking of speculations….
You also say: ” Besides, legally, the Turkish Parliament will be ratifying the protocols in which no section referring to Paragraph 11 of Armenia’s Declaration of Independence (which, as you say, “angered” Ankara) can be found. Whether Armenia’s Court included this section in their decision legally should not bother Ankara because, like I said, their Parliament will be ratifying a document which carries their foreign minister’s signature, not Armenian Court’s decision. I think Armenia’s Constitutional Court’s decision had no or very little impact on the ratification impasse because immediately after the signing ceremony and before the Court’s decision Turks restated the linkage between ratification and progress on NK. You seem to downplay this fact, but the NK issue chronologically precedes the Court’s decision in the actions of the Turks
OK. Finaly I can detect where our misunderstanding comes from. Acording to you Turkey cares about Azerbaijan not loosing NK more than to stop the Recognition of the Genocide and subsequently Western Armenia (them loosing land). I think NOT.
As for signing protocols which carries their FM signature and not RA court signature you are obviously right. But, the same foreign minister along with PM have on many occasions said that RA’s constitutional court’s decision violates the letter and spirit of the protocols therefore hesitating to sign it.
No we have Not been looking into different sources for these information, we simply analyze and interpret differently.
No,
I don’t think Turkey cares about Azerbaijan not loosing NK more than to stop the recognition of the genocide. I think Turks attempted (at the signing ceremony and in the aftermath) to have both halves of the cake and eat it, too: a typical sly Turkish behavior. I also think that the Azeri factor at some (after the protocols were signed) made greater impact on the Turks. Now, I admit this is a speculation. But the fact remains that they raised the NK-ratification dichotomy before Armenia’s Court decision. If they really cared about stopping the recognition of the genocide to the detriment of their branch Azerbaijan, one may think they would be silent on NK. They were not. You are right that their foreign minister along with PM said that RA’s constitutional court’s decision violated the letter and spirit of the protocols, but I think they just used it as a formal pretext to renege, not as the main reason.
Armen
We are just spinning around !
If you think that RA’s constitutional court’s decision had no or little impact on protocols then I think it is pointless to continue our debate, because I think it is the most important part of the debate.
One last question (off subject). Do you play poker?
No, I’m not a gambler. But Serj is a renowned one…
P.S. RA’s constitutional court’s decision admitted that the signed protocols were in conformity with the Constitution of Armenia. How could such a favorable decision have created a stalemate in the protocol process? At the same time, tying ratification of protocols with progress in NK that Turks reiterated immediately after signing and before RA’s constitutional court’s decision had the impact leading to impasse. You’re not debating this with me only. I’m afraid you’re debating this with most of the observers and even the ones in Armenian ruling clique who actually signed the protocols and gave their assessment for the reasons of the impact. Nowhere had I seen any of them saying that the stalemate was due to the RA’s constitutional court’s decision.
Armen,
re: No, I’m not a gambler. But Serj is a renowned one…
“No” answers my question. “I’am not a gambler”–tells me a lot about you. “But Serj is a renowned one…”. I wish Serj was a renowned poker player before his current job.
re: You’re not debating this with me only. I’m afraid you’re debating this with most of the observers and even the ones in Armenian ruling clique who actually signed the protocols and gave their assessment for the reasons of the impact.
Sorry Armen, but this one I am going to take as a compliment!
You wish the leader of your nation was a renowned poker-player before his current job, and I wish he was a patriot and a public-spirited, erudite, and intellectually advanced individual, not an underachiever, as he was known at school. Above all, I wish he was an elected leader enjoying a broad-based public trust and support. Have more confidence in the choice of your people, AR, even if they may sometimes err in choosing a leader for themselves. Let the people correct their own mistake instead of having one thug after another in the course of 20 years…