PITTSFORD, N.Y.—On Jan. 26, U.S. District Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly issued a dramatic order in the consolidated federal cases, “Armenian Assembly of America, Inc., et al. v. Gerard L. Cafesjian, et al.”—the longstanding dispute over the Armenian Genocide Museum and Memorial project in Washington. The order read, in part, that it is:
ORDERED and DECLARED that CFF [the Cafesjian Family Foundation] was improperly deprived of its rights as an Initial Donor under the AGM&M [Armenian Genocide Museum and Memorial, Inc.] By-Laws during a special meeting of the AGM&M Board of Trustees on March 19, 2009, and therefore CFF retains its rights to appoint AGM&M Trustees under the AGM&M By-Laws; it is further
ORDERED and DECLARED that the reversion clause in § 3.1(B) of the Grant Agreement executed between CFF, Cafesjian, and the Assembly on November 1, 2003 is valid and enforceable; it is further
ORDERED and DECLARED that CFF and Cafesjian may enforce their rights under the aforementioned reversion clause as of December 31, 2010, and AGM&M shall transfer the Grant Property to CFF and/or Cafesjian in accordance with said reversion clause; it is further
ORDERED and DECLARED that with the enforcement of the aforementioned reversion clause, CFF’s appointed trustee shall be entitled to a single vote on the AGM&M Board of Trustees.
The court also ordered that the defendants (Cafesjian, John J. Waters, Jr., and the CFF) are entitled to “indemnification for legal expenses and costs, in an amount to be determined by the Court in further proceedings.”
In a nonjury trial held in Washington between Nov. 9 and 29, the judge heard from over 20 witnesses and had a chance to assess their credibility. She admitted hundreds of documents (ranging from contracts and by-laws to e-mails and newspaper articles) into evidence. Judge Kollar-Kotelly set forth her findings of fact and conclusions of law in a 190-page memorandum opinion accompanying the order.
In the memorandum, the court offers a comprehensive outline of the history of the Armenian Genocide Museum project and the thinking, judgment, and acts of each of the principals as they grappled with this massive undertaking and with each other. Rather than relying on the interpretation of interested parties, one now can—and ought to—read the court’s impartial recounting in its entirety.
A pivotal moment
The outcome of this case will have serious repercussions for the future of Armenian advocacy in the United States. First, the verdict will have an impact on the sustainability of the Armenian Assembly of America as an organization. Second, the building of a major museum and memorial will transform the Armenian profile in Washington. Third, in seeking to achieve this goal, Armenian Americans will have to find a new sense of common purpose; we will need to find inspiration in this museum project to work together to an extent that we are not usually inclined to do.
Let us look first at what this decision may mean for the Armenian Assembly. Hirair Hovnanian and Van Krikorian, the de facto leaders of the Assembly, took a big gamble and lost. There will be consequences.
In donating the preponderance of the properties on which the museum was to be built, Cafesjian had set certain conditions—as major donors generally do. The Assembly had agreed to these conditions. Under the grant agreement, the Cafesjian Family Foundation (like other major donors to the project) would have the right, in perpetuity, to appoint members to the board of trustees of the AGM&M, Inc. (a charity that requires an 80 percent supermajority in its Board decisions). And mindful of the possibility of deadlock, foot dragging, or the failure of fundraising, the donor included a reversion clause: If the museum was not completed by Dec. 31, 2010, the properties would revert to the Cafesjian Family Foundation.
With no progress for years, the AGM&M faced the real prospect that it would lose the property. In response, Hovnanian and Krikorian set out to invalidate the terms of the grant agreement signed between the Assembly and Cafesjian. They sued in federal court to keep the properties and exclude the Cafesjian Family Foundation, making various grave allegations against Cafesjian and his colleagues—all of which the court rejected.
It was an expensive effort. It also required Hovnanian, Krikorian, and those associated with them to make statements that the court genteelly dubbed “incredible” and “remarkable.” (In a courtroom drama part of which I witnessed, Van Krikorian and Rouben Adalian were shown to have doctored the minutes and transcripts of a key meeting of the museum Board.) And it was an effort that sent exactly the wrong message to any potential major donor to the Armenian Assembly: We’ll take your gift, but don’t expect us to comply with the terms we agree to.
In fact, the first lawsuit in this matter was occasioned by another action that sent the wrong message to potential donors. In addition to a $3.5 million initial donation in 2000, Cafesjian had given the Assembly a $0.5 million interest-free loan to help buy the first of the properties assembled for the museum. Under an agreement with Cafesjian, the Assembly had committed to reissue the note in 2003. The judge found that the Assembly had in fact failed to carry out its obligation to reissue the note (though, in her interpretation of the timing, the statute of limitations had run out). Again, the message from the Assembly to potential benefactors: we will sign a contract to get your money, but don’t expect us to do what we say.
The failure of the Hovnanian-Krikorian gamble comes on the heels of a number of other controversies that have eroded public support for the Armenian Assembly. Under the circumstances, the prospects for the future of the Assembly look grim without major changes at the top. The organization must even look for new office space, as it had recently moved into the properties donated by the man it was suing. After such a fiasco, many organizations would demand accountability and institute new leadership. It remains to be seen whether any such step will be taken within the Assembly.
Transforming the Armenian face in Washington
The idea of an impressive Armenian Genocide Museum in Washington has always been exciting. But today, with the Armenian Genocide Resolution off the Congressional agenda, it is clear that Armenian American advocacy needs a new spark. More, it needs a thunderbolt.
The Armenian Genocide Museum and Memorial is that thunderbolt. Carried out on the most ambitious scale, it will have enormous, lasting impact on public awareness and consciousness of the Armenian Genocide.
The first area of impact will be architectural. With an appropriately designed edifice that spans several buildings, the museum and memorial can tell a story to passersby who do not even enter it. Its location, two blocks from the White House, will help make its impact political.
An important part of the political impact of the museum will lie in its ability to cultivate the climate for genocide prevention efforts in the United States. The interventions of Ambassador Henry Morgenthau and the U.S. consular officials throughout the Ottoman Empire in 1915-17 are among the proudest pages in the history of American diplomacy, and they ought to be brought to the fore.
Though located in the heart of Washington, the museum need not be entirely outward looking. As a memorial space, it can also help Armenians find solace.
In assembling its permanent collection and in sponsoring special exhibits, the museum would necessarily support and direct academic research on the genocide, its consequences, and the lessons to be learned from it. This research would include efforts to bring together artifacts and mementos held by families in the United States, as well as collaborative study in Turkey—in central archives and perhaps on a province-by-province, village-by-village level.
The research would have to be ongoing, and the museum would host or sponsor lectures, panels, video presentations, and the like. In short, it would have to be a living memorial, not a static monument.
A living memorial in an impressive edifice in the nation’s capital: the court order has removed the biggest obstacle to the realization of this vision.
A common purpose
For the project to be successful, it will require an investment larger than any single investment ever made by the Armenian community. It will thus also require the wholehearted participation of the widest cross-section of the community.
If the Armenian American community gathers around this project, it can be a victory whose bright light wipes out the disappointment engendered by successive presidents and Congresses.
It is a moment to rise above parochial concerns and come together. After the bitter struggle that brought us to this point, it will be difficult for the leaders of the Cafesjian Family Foundation to trust potential new partners in this endeavor—but they know they must, and they will do so. It will be difficult for people who have been associated with the Assembly to get involved with perceived foes of the Assembly’s current leaders—but their primary loyalty is to the greater cause, and many of them will do so. It will be difficult for leaders and supporters of the ANCA to get involved in a project that challenges the status quo in Washington, where the ANCA has emerged as the primary voice of Armenian Americans—but they know the project will strengthen our position in Washington, and they will do their part. It will be difficult for people who have not been involved in Washington to take the plunge—but the project will inspire many of them, and they will do so.
It is sad, indeed tragic, that so much time, money, and energy had to be wasted in litigation—though, admittedly, it is gratifying to have the truth confirmed by an impartial court. That said, it is time to move forward, together, and build something that is permanent yet living, somber yet inspiring, monumental yet accessible—as we look ahead to April 24, 2015.
The opinions expressed in the op-ed section do not necessarily reflect the views of the Armenian Weekly.
Vincent Lima
Latest posts by Vincent Lima (see all)
- Court Decision Will Change Profile of Armenian Activism in DC - February 4, 2011
Once again, another attack upon the AAA!! Why doesn’t everyone just leave them alone and let them do their work!
Thank you for an informative article.
Robert:
Do you have problems with reading? Is it not clearly obvious that the aaa is a joke and does not speak for any Armenians?
I guess the passionate defense of the aaa by a shoddy Turkish zealot, known to those on this website as robert, says it all about the “work” of the aaa…
No more divisive talking! We Armenians are a small population without being cut in half. Stay together, no matter how, and we all shall achieve the goal we all want. God Bless America and Armenia too!
Dear Vincent — Thank you for an informative piece. Where can we make donations for the Museum?
This Museum is desperately needed. We are fortunate that it will have such a prominent location. However, before any of us will be willing to donate valuable and treasured family artefacts that have miraculously survived the genocide, we will need to have legal guarantees that they will be permanently safe, that no one can remove them or dispose of them in any way, that our trust in their stewardship will not be betrayed.
Robert.. do you have membership with AAA? but then again you support, or be part of or would lik to be part of anything that is working against Armenians huh? I am not surprised..
Perouz- great idea and that should be implemented before anything gets donated. these artifacts are valuable and reprsents century old history and should be guaranteed that no one especially people like Robert and AAA will have any means to go closer or even touch them..
G
This is a lesson to all Armenian organizations whothink that they are above the law and are not accountable to anyone. To all entities who take donations and then try to see if they can find an excuse to change the original intent of the donors. The Melkonian brothers who made sure in their will that the school they built will never close must be tumbling in their graves.
Dear Mr. Lima:
I am confused.
From the early 90’s when I first read your prose on Hayastan, Groong and Giligia, you had impressed me as someone very articulate and with very effective thinking and writing skills.
After reading your article today, the AGM&M’s destiny is no longer clear to me. While it is obvious that Mr. Cafesdjian has won a court case and can now reclaim the property he intended to dedicate for the AGM&M, there is no clear indication in your text whether he is still commited to offer the same property for the creation of an AGM&M.
This comment is not intended in any way to belittle you or Mr. Cafesdjian. I have the greatest respect for his investments and philantropic work in Armenia. I also have the greatest respect for what the Hovnanians have done and continue to do in Armenia. God bless them all.
I agree that this is a very unfortunate situation, which is obviously caused by a misunderstanding. I do hope that these same people who faced each other in court can turn a page and work together again on this worthwhile project. This is an important project for our community and does require, as you say, the mobilisation of the whole community together with a new vision, an opening to all factions and transparency.
I think most Armenians that have been observing this sad event are somewhat relieved that it is out of the courts and public view. This has truly been a tragic event. The immediate impact in our community can be found in the comments that Perouz made. Public trust has been shaken. There are those who are pro-Casfejian and those who are pro-AAA, but most Armenians are non-partisan and will need their confidence to be resored. I am sure their there are many perspectives on this issue. Mr Hovnanian and Mr. Krikorian have served the Armenian community tirelessly for many years. Their contributions speak for themselves. The only emotion I feel is sadness.
I do beleive the AAA has lost some of the confidence of the Armenian community with its public position on the protocols and House resolution 252. Although, I abhor intra-competitive actions among Armenians( just look at the impact of the church split in America, we have institutionally developed two communites), the Assembly has been viewed as less of an activist group in the past few years and somewhat outflanked by the ANCA for the populist perception. However, the contributions of the individuals should be respected. I have seen the generosity of all three parties… the Casfejian family, Mr. Hovnanian and Mr. Krikorian do wonderful things for our community. Respect what they have done and pray that their efforts continue. Let’s not degrade into peripheral criticism. Doesn’t the church split of 74 years teach us anything?
I think Vincent’s optimism is warrented. We will recover from this. Confidence will be restored and the Museum will be built. The tragedy lies in the fact that we have not learned that our achilles heal is our disunity. I am not blaming anyone. Who am I or we to criticize. I am sad. Yes this is embarassing and it delays the project and it wastes resources…….. but the real is the unfortunate display of Armenian verses Armenian publically. It gives us a other opportunity to line up on sides and debate endlessly who is right. Dashnag vs. Ramgavars….. Prelacy vs. Diocese and now
CFF vs Assembly. In the short term , there are no winners among us. We need to learn to move on and heal.
Our faith teaches us that only through humility can we accept the love of our Lord and to love each other. Our community does not need another faction or splinter effort. I pray that we will subordinate our emotions , not to challenge the motivations of everyone and move to reconciliation.
Finally, the true colors of the Armenian Assembly is bared… the dishonesty that was perpetrated over these many years and too, pursued against the true efforts of Mr. Cafesjian’s honest efforts for the Armenian Genocide Museum. Too, Cafesjian also initiated the ANCAs Gateway project which still today brings to Washington DC those who seek to work in USA government… and of course, the ongoing Cafesjian efforts in our Haiastan. The Assembly leaders have been active in Haiastan… but, too, there is evidence that these too, have selectively and selfishly enhanced their own pockets as well… especially in the realm of the Armenian gold assets… Thank you Mr. Cafesjian, a true patriot of our Armenian nation… With all good wishes for your continued endeavors for our fledgling 20 year old nation… Abrees. Manooshag
Time to pull together. This museum/memorial must be built and open by April 2015 in time for the 100th commemoration of the genocide. We owe it to our ancestors.
What a disappointing and embarrassing piece of news. Was there not a better venue for these two members of the AAA to invest their energy, efforts and (our donated) money towards instead of a lawsuit against a generous donor??? The last paragraph says it all.
IDIOCY! This is what you are blindly defending ‘Robert’?
A strong remorseful apology from AAA is in order and VERY SOON! Including a promise of wisdom and no waste!
No more donations to AAA from this Melkonian… Adamantly!
Sounds as if some of you are a bit jealous. If I’m not mistaken, even President Sarkisian supports the AAA and their work! If true, then how can that be construed as them being “a joke” and “not representing Armenians”? Given that, I thus stand by my comment in that they should be left alone so as to continue their work.
When a waitress stopped Turks at the door and told them that the restaurant “did not serve Turkey”, Watts replied, “We don’t eat turkey, we just came to get some ham and eggs”.
Hovo.. et shat lavner..mersi for the laugh..
Robert-…President Sarkissyan, the unlawful President supports AAA… ummmm we already knew that…no surprise there…they represent nothing about Armenia, Armenian people, or Armenian cause… so your comparison means squat cause they both means squat to me….Given that, your comment in that they should be left alone so as to continue their work.. AKA you mean Turkey’s work???..means squat as well….sorry to dissapoint and burst your bubble sir…..
”Why doesn’t everyone just leave them alone and let them do their work!”
Because we cannot afford the corrupt practices of this organization that was, for example, milking the Genocide Museum Project $25,000 per month fee for a “consultant” who advised not to have the museum dedicated for the Armenian Genocide only, but for “all” genocides in the human history including the ONE and only one that the State Department cares about…
Interesting, Voskanapat. I didn’t know about the consultant. Don’t we already have such a museum in DC?
Still, I don’t see anything wrong with an Armenian Museum being a voice against genocide in general by including a section on other genocides and the impact of letting them go unpunished. This would be appropriate leadership on the part of the Armenian community as the survivors of the first Genocide of the 20th century. This could also be impetus for ongoing donor contributions from all segments of society. Not altogether a bad idea.
ANANOON! Your thoughts on recognizing other genocides is commendable, but let us get our museum built first with the funds we can accumulate and put all these funds for the benefit of our cause primarily. There isn’t anyone else like we Armenians that will be deicated to make the world never forget what those Turks did to our ancestors. Then if there are ample funds to display other genocides within our museum let that come about. God Bless America and Armenia!
It was a shame that nothing was resolved between the Assembly & Cafesjian over the years over the Armenian Genocide Museum. Armenians must put their differences aside and work together now that this has been settled in the courts. That Genocide Memorial should be a must in Washington, DC – Stephan Dulgarian
It is really sad that there are Armenians – both here and in Armenia – that can’t see thru the fog that is thrown up by our enemies.
One group (e.g. gayane) will say Pres. Sarkissyan is ‘unelected/unlawful’, another group will say Pres. Kocharian was ‘unelected/unlawful’, another group will call Pres ’Ter Persossian ‘traitor’….No matter how transparent and fair the elections may be in Armenia, one group or another will claim ‘fraud’.
I wish people would spend some time outside of narrow Armenian politics and Armenian issues, look around the world and see what actually takes place – behind the fog of faux news, misinformation and disinformation that spews non-stop from mainstream Western ‘news’ sources – and what mortal danger Armenia is still in, even today.
Armenia is not in the middle of some safe, idyllic ocean: not only are we on tough, inhospitable land, everyone knows what kind of neighbors we have, what kind of neighborhood we have existed in for millennia and what our history is.
Every time in our history that we have been divided, we have fallen prey to our enemies, have been cut up, and pushed to the brink of extinction.
Every time in our history that we have remained united, we have stood up to overwhelming forces.
Example: Arstakh War of Survival and Liberation; even when Armenian troops were suffering a string of defeats, there was no in-fighting amongst us, no recrimination, no finger-pointing (…like the Azeris did in their case ….); Our people – Worldwide – and the leadership stood united as ONE; we all know what the outcome was.
People, please read and study what has gone on in the world and what goes on at the periphery of Russia, the former republics of Soviet Union and their neighbors: all that affects and will affect Armenia.
You say elections in Armenia are not 100% ‘fair’ (whatever that means) ? How many elections in the ‘Democratic’ Europe/West do you suppose are fair ?
Does anyone believe that someone who has not been pre-approved by the powers-to-be will be allowed to become President of the USA ?
When the US Supreme Court illegally interfered in the election of Bush-Gore, and thus selected Bush for POTUS, was that ‘fair’ (the ‘hanging chads’ caper)? National level elections in the West are ‘fair’ to the extent that the groups that actually run Western countries pre-select Candidates A, B, or C – then sheeple are given the choice to elect A, B, or C, and experience the comforting illusion that they actually elected someone.
A ‘fair election’ in the vernacular of the Neocon West is someone that will do their bidding.
An ‘unfair election’ in the vernacular of the Neocon West is someone who will not, who serves his native country and its people, instead of them.
Russia had fair elections and elected drunkard Yeltsin, who allowed 10s of Billions of Russia’s wealth to be stolen and transferred to the West.
The Neocon West nearly succeeded in dismembering and taking over Russia, until Russian patriots like Putin took over the leadership – fair elections or not.
South Korea was under a brutal military dictatorship for decades, with rampant corruption, graft, nepotism, even massacres of South Korean citizens by their own Army – while its economy was developing, and middle class taking root. When a solid economy became the norm, a healthy middle class gradually emerged, and military dictators were sent packing.
What we need above all in Armenia now is stability and economic development. Graft, corruption, nepotism….all that will gradually melt away as a healthy and vibrant Armenian middle class emerges and takes root in Armenia: Our job in the Diaspora is to put any petty differences aside and work for one unified goal.
Any turmoil in Armenian will allow multiple viruses to infect the body, weaken it and make it ripe for (bloodless) takeover by our enemies.
Dear Avery:
I agree with what you write and regret that “anonymous” pseudonymed persons are allowed by the Armenia Weekly to spread rumors, innuendo, unfounded accusations and false information about generous people such as the Hovananian family. Keep in mind that, unlike most of their detractors, many members of this “hayrenaser” family actually live in Armenia.
Here is the way all major museums around the world operate: The museum always has a primary founding mandate; in our case, the teaching and recognition and commemoration of the Armenian Genocide. The museum then has several temporary exhibits on related issues in a separate display area each year, perhaps in one or two rooms, depending on the size of the museum. The Armenian Genocide and Memorial Museum might have in any given year a temporary exhibit on the Ukraine Holodomor, the Rwandan killing fields, the Bolshevik gulags, etc. These temporary exhibits would change the following year, or, space might all be given over to the Armenian Genocide. As Vincent Lima says in his article “the museum would host or sponsor lectures, panels, video presentations, and the like. In short, it would have to be a living memorial, not a static monument.” To give large space to human rights issues in general, to other genocides, etc. will then make this simply another human rights museum, and you will find that its mandate is diluted; it will no longer be primarily about the Armenian Genocide. We will be increasingly shoved aside. A human rights museum is being built in Canada. From the outset, newspapers have been filled with letters of complaint about the unfairness of space being denied to different genocides. Too much time money and resources have already been wasted. Let’s not waste time and insult the generous Cafesjians by talking about other issues that have nothing to do with what was done to our families by the Turks. We desperately need this museum. Let us all give the Cafesjian Foundation the respect and trust they have earned and deserve. Let us make it clear that we are grateful and that we stand with them in the building of, not a general human rights museum, but The Armenian Genocide and Memorial Museum. And let us pray that this debacle does not lead to the withdrawal of the Cafesjian Foundation, or other major potential donors. We can’t do it without them.
Read this paragraph taken from the above article again:
“It also required Hovnanian, Krikorian, and those associated with them to make statements that the court genteelly dubbed “incredible” and “remarkable.” (In a courtroom drama part of which I witnessed, Van Krikorian and Rouben Adalian were shown to have doctored the minutes and transcripts of a key meeting of the museum Board.) And it was an effort that sent exactly the wrong message to any potential major donor to the Armenian Assembly: We’ll take your gift, but don’t expect us to comply with the terms we agree to.”
This paragraph overwhelms me with sadness. I ask Antoine S. Terjanian to explain if the shameful contents of the above excerpt are included in the “rumors, innuendo, unfounded accusations and false information about generous people such as the Hovananian family,” that she refers to, when it is the findings and the documented response of a court of law.
Perouz:
The answer to your question is “no”.
To keep the record straight, I am not a “she”. You can even see my photo if you clic on my name at the top of this comment.
So two wealthy Armenians decided we need a museum in Washington (naturally they were joined by tier two individuals), then those two wealthy Armenians had a fallout, then the museum was delayed for so many years and they dragged each other into the courts and now, following the court order on the issue, we are witnessing renewed efforts to drag the community in a p… contest between two “Azkayin choch”! I keep reading Hagop Baronian over and over again and keep finding his characters in Armenian communities all over the world, from the “choch” to the “khempakir” to the “heghapokhagan” to the “hokapartsou” to the “derder” and realize with pain, that we are still living in the 19-th century, not even the 20-th.
I agree with Avery.
Avery: Why is it that when some people raise their voices against injustice, other people like you try to accuse them of not being able to “see through the fog that is thrown up by our enemies.” What do our enemies have to do with rigged elections, widespread governmental corruption, lawlessness, monopolization of the market by a gang of semiliterate oligarchs, mismanagement of the ruling cliques, and impoverishment of the people? can you explain? It’s not true that “no matter how transparent and fair the elections may be in Armenia, one group or another will claim ‘fraud’.” There are monitoring groups and there are always people, ordinary Armenian citizens, who’d know for sure whom the majority of them casted votes for. It is generally accepted that except for LTP’s fisrt election in the early 1990s, all consecutive elections have been rigged. I outrightly reject any comments, such as yours, that tend to explain Armenian politics and Armenian issues by the “mortal danger Armenia is still in.” No one denies that the danger for Armenia exists in our turbulent region, but for Christ’s sake, how is this related to narrow-mindedness of the rulers—whether LTP, Robik or Serjik, their unpopularity, unaccountability before their own citizens? How do exogenous factors affect internal lawlessness, all-permissiveness of the ruling thugs, their failure to provide minimal basic rights for the people? Avery, people immigrate from Armenia not so much because “Armenia is not in the middle of some safe, idyllic ocean,” but mainly because of the total disregard for the needs of their citizens by the former or current authorities. Why would remaining united against an external enemy be praised by you, but raising voices of condemnation for violating basic civil rights of the rightful owners of the Republic—the people, be considered unnecessary? It’s just another way of keeping the people oppressed by bringing up the external threat factor. In other words, Serjik would say: “behave yourselves or else we’ll bring LTP to the fore or unleash war in Artsakh.” Your analogies with Western political systems are weak and unsubstantiated. Westerners don’t really care whether it’s Obama or Merkel or Berlusconi, or if the “sheeple” are given the choice to elect A, B, or C, and experience the illusion that they actually elected someone, because basic rights of the people are more or less protected and their stomachs fed. Had Armenians’ basic rights were safeguarded by the state and they’d be provided ways and means to have the average consumer basket, Armenians, too, wouldn’t care so much as they do now as to whether it’s option A, B, or C that’s ruling the country. Do you see the difference? Of course above all we need stability and economic development. But guess what, citizens of Armenia are ready for this for a long time. Why wouldn’t the ruling thugs provide stability and economic development? What prevents them to do this? External factors only? Bull***. Their own inability at governance is the primary reason. “Healthy and vibrant Armenian middle class will emerge and take root in Armenia”? How technically, if your country’s economic infrastructures and state revenues are distributed amongst the clans? How technically, if your market is monopolized by several thick-neck oligarchs preventing fair competition? I agree that turmoil in Armenia “will allow multiple viruses to infect the body and weaken it,” but history shows that societies are hardly to achieve change without commotions. Bad, unpopular. misanthropic rulers will not go at our whim. Unfortunately…
I can clearly see the differences in approaches to Armenian domestic politics between the Hayastantsis (me, mjm, Gayane et al) and most of the Diasporans posting here. The schism is natural: the formers speak based on their first-hand knowledge, insider experience, and grievances experienced first-hand; the latters speak from the distant shores, albeit concerned. There is one important point here. Either everything should be left on the citizens of Armenia who endure economic hardships and governmental negligence, or Diasporans should find ways to engage themselves more assertively in the decision-making practices of the Republic and see through their investments so they reach ordinary people, not illegitimate governments.
RECENT HISTORY OF AAA POSITIONS INCLUDE:
– Supported Waiver of Section 907,
– Spearheaded Turkish Armenian Reconciliation Commission(TARC),
– Support for ArmenoTurkish Reconciliation,
– Latest Lookwarm Attitude towards the Genocide Resolution
– … and now this.
CAN YOU SEE THE PATTERN.
Jim, the duplicity of the AAA has been known in many circles for a long time. However, this brings it to the forefront and exposes AAA for what it really is. It is a tool in the hands of the US administration and Turkey’s supporters to pacify Armenian Americans, drain resources and destroy momentum. It has tried to derail ANC’s initiatives. As such, it is a disguised organization who is working against Armenians while pretending to be an Armenian organization. I strongly suggest Diaspora to stop supporting and financing AAA. Some good intentioned Armenians have fallen pray to AAA’s false front. The sole purpose of the fight with Cafesjian foundation was to completely derail the Armenian Genocide Museum. It has obviously failed due to Cafesjian foundation’s tenacity and belief in what is right. I congratulate the Cafesjian Family Foundation and especially Mr. Cafesjian for his good heart and patriotism.
Arsen, I appreciate your posting and comments. Unfortunately, the problem is lack of understanding on our (Diaspora’s) part of the actual environment, culture and other attributes of Armenia and its population. Having worked with and talked to many Armenians both in Diaspora and Armenia it is clear to me that there is a huge communication gap and misunderstanding between both sides. This is even more when both sides actually speak Armenian, since the expectation is that, we speak each other’s language then what is the problem? We should understand one another. The Diaspora Armenians have a lot to offer to Armenia, but similarly they need to make extra effort to understand the Armenia’s culture and environment. This is why I advocate living and working in Armenia for the Diaspora Armenians. The more contact there is the less the problem. I was happy to see that Armenia’s government is contemplating dual citizenship and changing the constitution to create an upper house consisting of Diaspora Armenians. This should help with the understanding and exchange between two Armenian sides that need each other desperately.
Jim & Fredrick,
After reading both of your posts, the only thing that can be said to you both is…Can you say PARANOIA?!!! Quick, how many “evil agents” do you see right now which are working to topple the government of Armenia, or the diaspora? Get real!!
Fredrick — Fully agreed. It is high time for the Diasporan Armenians to establish institutional presence in the Republic so that Armenians speak if not in monolithic, but at least in coordinated voice. I too am glad to see that steps are being taken towrads this goal.
It is the misdirected leaderships which the fledgling nation of Haiastan has had since Der Bedrossian and all those until today’s Serge Sarkisyan and cohorts. I know if the leaders were true patriots the connections between our homeland and all our dispora shall have been well developed in these nearly twenty (20) years… and not any ‘diversions’ would have been pursued. Picture, for example, our patriotic leader, Aram Manoukian, and how immediate connections which shall have developed immediately. These leaders of Haiastan have been of the ilk ‘educated’ via the communist mentality… too even some from the diaspora are known able to fill their own pockets – seeking ways to benefit themselves, their families, their cohorts. For the citizens of Haiastan, worthy of all advances and benefits are treated as though they have not the rights to grow and enjoy the benefits that they too are entitled too, but denied by leaders filling their own purses. So, Haiastan today must find and elect the honest, dedicated, patrotic men and women who know of our historic patriots… Our Haiastan is in need of patriots and not leaders who are ‘learning the job’ as they mislead and stuff their pockets – costing our Armenian peoples of Haiastan together with our diaspora all these valuable years lost by those who chose to serve themselves before they served our fledgling, worthy nation of Haiastan’s citizenry. Manooshag
I agree everything and every word that Manooshag uttered above. We do indeed in need and immediate need of the likes of Aram Manookian who would gladly give away their lives to Armenia rather than thinking only for their selfish selves. For we do indeed and as soon as possible very patriotic and intelligent leaders to lead our nation with bravity, smarts and above all with PATRIOTISM!!!!!
I have made grammatical errors above. I meant to say, as Armenia’s leadership we are in need for a government who will lead the nation with smarts, to be brave and gutsy and patriotic.
I just read the comments where Avery mentioned my name and how i am wrong in pointing the unlawful President of Armenia… Avery.. as an Armenian I respect you and your opinion… however, pointing such things does not mean we are destroying anything or spreading viruses…. on the contrary, such things MUST AND SHOULD BE talked about and pointed out.. We are all Armenians and we have ONE COUNTRY and we should ALL be involved in making sure such thugs do not and will not run our country any longer… a country who needs an honest, hard working, strong and with balls leaders..
MJM did a great ..actually job responding to your post..thank you MJM.. well said…
Arsen jan… yes qez shat lav em haskanum.. and i know exactly what you mean.. it seems to me, something force is truly working very hard to keep Diaspora away from the motherland….not sure if it is solely due to the Armenian govt’s wishes or it has help of outside factors but i am glad to hear (hopefully it will materlize) the dual citizenship that is in work….. getting all the ARmenians feel part of ONE cause and country will have a better outcome than shutting every door that Diaspora opens to be connected with our motherland.. My entire dad’s side lives in Armenia and every time I talked to them on the phone, i get more frustrated and sad.. the country is falling apart not because it does not have the resources (because the resources are there and plenty of it)… but because our corrupt govt officials control every aspect of it.. and those how speak of “unfair and cruel”
Robert- I would not talk if i were you.. you of all people should not mention Paranoia.. seriously… have you looked at yourself and your govt? do you know how you act and react when you know you hear anything that puts a plus on the Armenian side or points out the shortfalls of those who support your and your govt…??.. the hair on your back gets all up and you jump in with nonsense comments. i call THAT Paranoia Robert..not what Jim and Frederick said…they speak the truth and share the truth.. but then again you don’t know what truth is if it shines right in front of your eyes….. truly sadness…
Dear all,
Ancient holy land like Armenia is a gifted land and it is belong to all Armenians of the world..every Armenian automatically should be granted as citizenship of Armenia…most diaspora Armenians are products of Genocide, they have all the rights to get into Armenia’s life and built Armenia again…let us pray that our nation will be unified under one flag, where our traditional enemies never let us have that chance and opportunity for a long time…”United we stand, Divided we fall”
I wish the discussion of the differences between Armenia Armenians and Diaspora Armenians are taken to separate, dedicated pages, instead of being discussed under comments on a tiny development in the Diaspora. Because this is a very serious issue that will affect Armenia and Armenians all over the world very deeply for generations to come while an issue relating to an establishment in the Diaspora (in this case the Museum…) will come and dissipate in a few months or a little longer.
Unfortunately those differences are not being studied seriously by the younger educated generations both in Armenia and the Diaspora. That discussion – if it ever happens – is still handled by people who have been educated either by the system in Armenia still heavily influenced by the communist methodology or by the system in the Diaspora heavily influenced by the pre-independence era, marred by internal conflicts. This is not a criticism rather a statement of facts that have their roots in historic developments that had nothing to do with the current generations of Armenians.
Following the independence, either the successive leaderships of Armenia or the Diaspora made the necessary effort to scientifically analyze the differences between the two parts of our nation. Moreover – who says that Armenians in Armenia are homogeneous in their thinking and approach to the multitude of realities of life in the homeland? Do Armenians living in cosmopolitan Yerevan and Armenians living in the villages of Sevkar or Saralanch appraoch socio-political issues in the same manner? What about the hayasdantsi-gharapaghtsi tow? On the other hand, do Armenians living in Lebanon and Armenians living in Argentina approach the socio-political problems of Armenia from the same viewpoint? As a matter of fact, Armenians in Glendale and others in New York (and I am not talking about the recent arrivals from Armenia) have a huge gap amongst their approaches to issues having to do with the Diaspora and the Armenian-American community itself.
These differences are natural considering the reality of the Armenian nation and the variety of socio-cultural, economic and political influences of our surroundings. What we need to do is to study those differences and find and highlight the things that unite us all over the world and based on those very few “uniting factors” start moving forward.
The recent history of the Armenian nation can serve as the best teacher on this issue. Following world War II, Armenians were engaged in senseless infighting. At the end, they found the issue that united them – the recognition of the Genocide and the 50-th UNITED commemoration of the Genocide was organized, followed by the 60-th commemoration. This did not resolve the differences between the Diaspora and Soviet Armenia or the various diasporan political groups but succeeded in creating a common platform which stood above all other differences (from the furthest corners of the Diaspora to Soviet Armenia).
The liberation of Karabagh was another similar platform, that brought us together in the pursuit of a cause at a moment when the recognition of the Armenian Genocide was just starting to lose momentum as THE topic bringing together the various parts of the Armenian nation.
In these times of relative peace, what’s the issue, the ideal, the goal that can gather around it the entire Armenian nation? Can we have a serious, smart and scientific discussion about what differentiates each and every group of Armenians from the rest and what are the common trends, goals and beliefs that they all have in common? Can we, during that analyzes, discover that fine line that can pull each and every Armenian individual and group to make a proactive effort for his nation and homeland? In a number of states that fine line is called National Security Policy and Turkey is the best example of a country with the strongest allegiance to that policy which they have been inheriting since the Ottoman Empire.
Can we develop our own policy, that will encompass and set goals for the entire Armenian nation – in Armenia (Republic of Armenia, Artsakh and Javakhk), Western Armenia, the ex-Soviet diaspora and classical diaspora (completely different from the National Security Concept developed a few years ago in the Republic of Armenia).
That’s the challenge of this generation.
mjm:
I agree that our people have suffered long enough and are overdue for what they deserve: a modicum of law and order on the streets, jobs, economic opportunity.
I agree that corruption and graft on daily encounters of ordinary folks with authorities is what people experience and is the most infuriating of all.
I agree they don’t see and don’t care how World Politics may or may not affect RoA (…and they really shouldn’t have to)
My solution is to keep pumping Diaspora money into the Armenian economy: even pigs get satiated eventually; then the surplus wealth can start flowing to the rest.
I already gave the example of South Korea: do you agree, or disagree that is what happened there ?
I freely admit that I was furious at Pres. Sargsian for sucking up to repellent Erdogan and Gul, even after they had repeatedly treated him with contempt.
I was furious at him for blindly pushing the Protocols, against overwhelming opposing both in RoA and Diaspora.
Almost as galling was him bestowing an RoA medal on Anti-Armenian Saakashvili.
But it is a fact that Sargsian, for some reason or another, has shown a lot of backbone lately and his public pronouncements vis-à-vis Turks and Azeris have been excellent. His renewing of mutual defense agreement with Russia precludes any attack from Turkey, in case Azerbaijan decides to invade Artsakh.
He may have ‘stolen’ the election, but what would you like – a repeat of March 2008 ?
Do you really want the Armenian Army to enter Yerevan riding tanks again ? I don’t: the one and only job of RoA Armed Forces is to defend the Republic against external enemies; they had and have no business getting involved in politics.
Pres. Ter Petrossian is hinting that there will be mass protests again in March 2011: do we want a civil turmoil and more Armenians killing Armenians now ?
Should Saksian round up Dody Gago and his ilk and just throw them in jail ? What happens if their private ‘armies’ start having gun battles on Yerevan’s streets with the cops ?
The fact that one of those guys would dare slap a Presidential adviser just because his wife was told not to sit at some chair at an event clearly shows that there is no entity in RoA they are afraid of.
So, mjm: what is your solution ?
Put it on the table; let’s debate it.
gayane:
re: “….Avery.. as an Armenian I respect you and your opinion… however, pointing such things does not mean we are destroying anything or spreading viruses…. “
I appreciate your respect. I also respect the opinions of others, including yours and mjm’s, who comment on these pages and disagree with me (…except for those who deny the AG): we all learn from each other.
Nowhere in my post did I indicate that you, personally, or that any other Armenian was personally spreading viruses: read the last paragraph again, where I mentioned ‘virus’.
Let me be more direct of what I was trying to say:
[1] The Neocon West always, always, always works – even today, even now – to weaken and dismember Russia.
[2] Russia can’t be trusted fully either, but with Russia out of the way, Armenia has no chance against an invasion from Turkey.
(…and please I don’t want to hear about so-called International Laws protecting Armenia, and similar nonsense).
[3] The Anglo-American empire, which at present rules and runs the world, has supported (for maybe a couple of hundred years), and will
continue supporting the Turks {…it would be a good mental exercise to ask yourselves ‘Why’}.
[4] The Neocon West does not care about what happens in Armenia, as long as they can inject themselves into her body, weaken it and control it.
[5] With control, they can spin her out of Russia’s orbit … and then it will be lights-out.
[6] I already gave the example of what took place in Russia: I invite anyone to prove me wrong.
[7] You can also look at the examples of Ukraine, Georgia, and all the other ‘color’ revolutions in the _stans.
[8] I have no proof, but based on the indicators and history, I firmly believe outsiders had a hand in the events of March 2008: the popular discontent
was there for sure independent of any outside influence. But that’s just it: when there is chaos, it becomes very easy to channel events
in the direction detrimental to Armenia’s long term survival.
The reference to the virus was not directed to any individual commenter: but when there is constant turmoil in the society, constant infighting, constant demonstrations – some of it instigate by outsiders – it diverts the attention of national security, and creates a fertile ground for countries and entities that want to see Armenia disappear to easily infiltrate her body. This is nothing specific to Armenia: happens all the time all over the world. Armenia is not immune to it.
Like I said, Armenia is not the only country in the world: look at world history, look at other countries, look at our own history – and then extrapolate from there of what might happen.
well said Jirayr.
Avery: I’m putting my solution on the table, as requested. Note that this solution is strictly in the realm of Diaspora-Armenia relations, not broader domestic or geopolitical spheres. My solution is to make Diasporan support of Armenia’s economy dependent upon the government’s meeting certain conditions, upon concrete, measurable improvements in meeting domestic and all-national obligations, and upon progress in the observance of basic civil rights. The problem with unconditional “pumping of the Diaspora money” into the Armenian economy is that when current pigs get satiated, other pigs surface for another two-term period. There are many avenues; one is already employed by some Diasporan groups or individuals: they open their offices that are run by their people thus avoiding governmental interference to an optimal degree. I can think of other options, such as social funds that will distribute assistance to ordinary people in avoidance of the government, etc.
As for other points you raised, I agree that South Korea was under a brutal military dictatorship for decades, with rampant corruption, graft, and nepotism, but you gave the answer by yourself: “while its economy was developing and middle class taking root.” Well, this part is not happening in Armenia. Even a dictatorship is not happening in Armenia, which could be an alternative solution. A patriotic dictatorship, I’d say. The authorities are not capable of even instituting a dictatorship, which maybe not quite a bad idea provided people are fed and rulers are accountable before the letter and spirit of law or a dictator’s fury.
Further, Serj has shown backbone vis-à-vis Turks and Azeris not because he’s undergone a miraculous transformation from being a careless thug into a zealous patriot, but because, I assume, he was cautioned to be a good boy next time he’s pressed to put Armenia’s signature under a defeatist document. By the way, some in Armenia believe that his recent proclamations vis-à-vis Turks and Azeris are aimed at appeasing the Diaspora, while his foreign minister’s signature remains on the protocols and his Constitutional Court’s decision admitting the protocols as compliant to the Constitution is still in force. And, Avery, mutual defense agreement with Russia (or any other country, for that matter) does not preclude attack from Turkey in case Azerbaijan decides to invade Artsakh. Russia will act in its best national interest when and if such an undesirable development happens. Least of all will Russia care about a mutual defense agreement with Armenia, when it’ll come to advancing its national interest.
You ask: “He [Serj] may have ‘stolen’ the election, but what would you like–a repeat of March 2008 or the Armenian Army to enter Yerevan riding tanks again?” No, I want no bloodshed, but I want respect towards the votes of the majority of my people. If before Serj and during his “presidency,” rulers were elected based on people’s will—however debatable this notion has become nowadays—we wouldn’t have 2008 or its repetition. I’m pretty sure. Had Vazgen Manoukian become the president in 1996, and Karen Demirchian in 1998, as they both were given votes of confidence by the people, we could have had a better-governed country by now. Not perfect, but certainly better-governed.
You ask: “LTP is hinting that there will be mass protests again in March 2011: do we want a civil turmoil and more Armenians killing Armenians now?” No, I don’t, but I have serious suspicions as to who might ask LTP to pop up at those important thresholds? Have you given it any thought?
You ask: “Should Sarksian round up Dody Gago and his ilk and just throw them in jail? What happens if their private ‘armies’ start having gun battles on Yerevan’s streets with the cops?” Why are you putting Serj and Dodi Gago in different camps? They’re links of the same chain. How can Serj throw Dodi in jail if the former is on the latter’s payroll? Besides, do you think Dodi Gago has come up with an idea of establishing his pro-government “’Prosperous’ Armenia” party all by his non-achiever brains?
Lastly: “The fact that one of those guys would dare to slap a presidential adviser just because his wife was told not to sit at some chair at an event clearly shows that there is no entity in RoA they are afraid of.” Exactly. And this entity starts with an elected, popular, and public-spirited president. Do you know what “punishment” “Black Gago” received for his misdemeanor and all his former crimes? “Exile” in… Italy!
You failed, I’m afraid, to show how the “fog that is thrown up by our enemies” and the “mortal danger Armenia is still in” can explain the isolated fact of misbehavior of the same “Black Gago” or many other ugly domestic facts. So, Avery, please put on the table and let’s debate, if you will, in what way there can be a connection between “tough, inhospitable land, and the kind of neighborhood Armenia is in” with the domestic behavior of the rulers, such as the one you yourself brought up above?
Jirayr: I agree with most of your observations, but before we develop a policy that will encompass and set goals for the entire Armenian nation, can we at this historical juncture at least respect the feelings of the citizens of the Republic in that their presidents and ruling elites are unelected and self-centered? Why should Gayane or others be wrongfully blamed for not being able to “see through the fog that is thrown up by our enemies” when she or others exercise their constitutional right as citizens to criticize their unelected, unpopular governments? You know what opinion this generates in Armenia? People would say: “Why won’t we trade places with the Diasporans: let them now live under the regimes of LTPs, Robs, or Serjs, and let us help Armenia from distant shores.” There are ways for the Diaspora other than pacifying the disgruntled local population in the Republic while being concerned about the civil strife or a possible outbreak of war. Establishing institutional presence in Armenia, influencing the decision-making process, and making assistance conditional for the government, are just a few of them.
Let us recognize, together, who are the leaderships and others who are the enemies of our Haiastan and our Armenian diaspora – today;
Let us recognize, together, the leaderships and others of the world who are true friends to the Armenians;
Recognize, too, those who remained in Haiastan to suffer the Turks to this day;
Recognize, too, Survivors who had to flee the horrors of the Turks scattered across all the civilized nations of the world;
Recognize that Armenians, the world over, wherever, are worthy of joining together, regaining our strengths together, to share what should be our Haiastan of today. None of us are as step-children, or as adopted children, or illegal children of our Armenian nation, no matter our history;
Recognize, that all the years that our Haiastan was under the USSR for nearly one century, that most of the diasporan Armenians, the ARF worldwide, and then the ANCA were still bearing our banner, our yerakoun, in our churches – readying for the day that our Haiastan would evolve again… as it has, not any bloodshed, just a release from the USSR… what a gift!!
Hence, today, we have now another given another gift… the gift for our Armenian peoples to join and enjoy the pleasures of a resurrected Haiastan. without the ‘critics’ and even the misdirected leaderships that followed and mislead Haiastan;
Our “gift” cannot be destroyed by any petty/misdirected actions!! Armenians, for we all the world over, are worthy and deserving of Azad, angagh, Haiastan.
P.S. of course we will hear from the ‘critics’, the dishonest, the know-it-alls… but these become obvious over time and to be ignored… For historically, patriots have come forth to welcome our gift today… worthy of our Haiastan! Manooshag
Avery – With all due respect, why would calling things by their names and criticizing them (president is unelected, rulers are thugs, businessmen are semiliterate, people are impoverished, etc.) imply that anyone here “diverts the attention of national security, creates a fertile ground for countries and entities that want to see Armenia disappear to easily infiltrate her body”? Are you advising people of Armenia to continue enduring hardships and injustice with their mouths shut? I can see quite the opposite happening with the younger generation of Armenians. The change (true one, not another idiotic color revolution) will only come from the inside, and Armenia, indeed, is not the only country in the world for which this is true. Are you advising people to shut up because the Neocon West and Anglo-American empire might pose an external threat to Armenia? And who’s fending off this threat? Almighty Serj or Bob or Levon? Besides, isn’t depopulation of Armenia, as a result of governmental mismanagement, lawlessness, and widespread corruption, a national security issue? And a domestic one?
“Robert” ? or is it Recip? we know you already.
mjm: I like your idea of conditional Diaspora support, although don’t know how to implement it, without having it degenerate into a wedge between us (Diaspora & Armenia). Perhaps it can be gradual: some funds with no-strings attached, larger funds with commensurate higher levels of quid-pro-quo.
On the other geopolitical items: you present several good counter-arguments to my positions; on others, we just have to agree to disagree, and ‘meet’ again @ another thread. This one is getting quite long: hard to cleanly pair-up all the points/counterpoints.
Arsen: I don’t expect Armenia’s people to endure these conditions forever. And I am not advising anyone in Armenia to do anything: I have absolutely no moral right, since I am not residing there. Although I don’t live there now, I have a pretty good idea. I was born in Yerevan, lived into my teens, now residing in California. My childhood buddy still lives in Yerevan with his family; I try to help him as much as I can. Many of my blood relatives still live there. My parents were immigrants into Armenia from Middle East, many moons ago. Close family has travelled both to Armenia and Artsakh (I haven’t). They give me different – sometimes diametrically opposing – impressions: from ‘hell’ to ‘paradise’.
Maybe I see things others don’t, or maybe I am paranoid, but I am deathly afraid of any large scale in-fighting in RoA, because I have seen and see how easily a (small) country can be dismembered and lost – by observing how it is routinely done throughout the world today, and for centuries past.
You ask several good questions: if I have not been able to impart why I see things the way I do in my previous posts, writing another lengthy one won’t do.
So, same as with mjm: we have to ‘meet’ @ another thread.
Arsen:
just one more comment re: ‘ Almighty Serj or Bob or Levon? ‘
Pres. Levon Ter Petrossian stayed in Yerevan with the people during the darkest days faced by newly born RoA, when snow was piling up on the streets, when Yerevan’s residents were cutting down city’s trees for heat and when at times the Republic had only 2 week reserves of food, and when Azeris were winning in Atrsakh. He never lost his nerve, never uttered one word of compromise with the invaders, always believed in the cause.
Pres. Robert Kocharian was Chairman of the State Defense Committee in 1992, when Azeris had occupied about half of Artsakh: his strong leadership in that post was credited with the shifting of the course of the war in Armenians’ favour.
Pres. Serzh Sargsyan was a commander in Artsakh armed forces during the war (I don’t know what rank).
I think all 3 have proven they are no shrinking violets.
Whether you agree or disagree with them, there are lots of interesting comments and ideas in this trend that I believe can become a separate blog on their own, so probably the Weekly can start a separate sub-web for a blog to discuss Armenia-Diaspora relations. So, here is my suggestion to the editors of the Weekly: compile these comments into an article then launch a sub-web to discuss them at length, not in the form of short comments.
A few short points: Diasporan assistance to Armenia is too small to be conditional. Diaspora Armenians must recognize that their assistance compared to the budget of the Republic of Armenia is minimal. Let us assume $60 million/year of assistance (which is a very high estimate) divided upon the 2.8 million Armenians living in the Homeland. That’s something like $25/person. Did you try to buy a pair of pants in Armenia lately…? Beside, I always remember the example of a group that collected $12,000 of assistance for Armenia, spent $6,000 of that on the travel of 3 members of the group to Armenia to distribute the remaining $6,000…
Armenia-Armenians can’t present themselves as extra-martyrs for having lived in the difficult situation of Armenia; having you ever enjoyed the reality of NOT having to struggle to remain Armenian? Each diasporan community lived a hell on its own. You haven’t lived through the reality of how hard it is to REMAIN Armenian in a diasporan situation and moreover, a situation which is not of your choosing, a situation where you always doubt your belonging (eg: to have Lebanese citizenship – because your grandparents were driven there, be born in France – because the Lebanese decided to kill each other in a civil war, then to live in the US, but be Armenian). Try explaining that to a 9 year old child, whom you have to take to Saturday and Sunday school while his American friends are having a blast during a field trip.
So everybody had and still has to struggle in hid own way and Armenia-Armenians are no more Armenians than Diaspora-Armenians and vice-versa. Today’s generation has not only to understand this but to grasp and adopt it as a mathematical postulate. There cannot be Armenia-Armenians, Artsakh-Armenians, American-Armenians, Lebanese-Armenians! There can only be Armenians, who will all become American-Armenians when we have an issue to push in Congress and who will all become Armenia-Armenians when we have to push for real social justice and democracy in Armenia.
Didn’t we do just that (become Armenians – period) during the liberation war of Artsakh? Did any freedom fighter ask the one standing beside him on the front whether he/she is from Armenia, Javakhk, Artsakh or from which diasporan community?
Agree with Arsen and MJM….
sorry Avery can’t sugar coat what is happening in Armenia due to corruption, mismanagement and flat out wrong doings of the Armenian govt…i definintely agree on some points you brought up but on some, as you said, we have to agree to disagree …
Gayane
wikileaks:
1. (C) For those Armenians who have long considered emigrating abroad to pursue a brighter economic future, the current political crisis appears to have finally moved some to action. Besides the twenty or so asylum seekers who approached the Embassy after the fatal March 1 clashes and state of emergency, an increasing number of intending immigrants from Armenia’s middle class have also come to our attention, including one of the Embassy’s GSO staff who abruptly ended 12 years of USG service to emigrate to the Czech Republic. These successful, middle class citizens tell us that the crisis has played a consequential role in spurring them to finally emigrate, saying it has dashed any remaining hopes they had for a stable, post-independence Armenia. Many say the political instability from the crisis has added yet one more disturbing element to their long list of concerns that include economic uncertainties and a worsening environment in which to raise their kids. Some also say they see an ongoing moral decay in society, where rich, well-connected, law-breaking elites run roughshod over ordinary Armenians’ rights. In addition to these voices from the middle class, we have also begun to hear disenchanted officials contemplate emigration. END SUMMARY.
wikileaks:
WE’VE ALWAYS PONDERED EMIGRATING
2. (C) Hrachia Hackopian, a US Embassy employee for 12 years who worked as a GSO procurement officer, told Emboff April 22 that he had long contemplated emigrating abroad, but never had the gall to carry through with it until now. The middle-aged Hackopian abruptly ended his employment on April 17 and emigrated to the Czech Republic on April 28. Leaving a stable, well-paying job, unemployed wife and two adolescent sons behind, Hackopian headed to Prague without any employment offer in the hopes of landing a procurement job with a Western firm. Ruben Alexanian, a successful, 40-year-old real estate and hydro-power developer, told Emboff that he, too, was on the verge of emigration with his wife and five-year-old son to Prague — along with his two brothers and their young families — after years of putting it off for personal and financial reasons. Karine Afrikian, a 50-year-old Armenian diplomat fired in late February for issuing a public statement with other diplomats denouncing Armenia’s presidential election, said that while she had stayed in Armenia after independence to contribute to the country’s post-Soviet development, she has now lost hope and is pondering emigration
… AND NOW WE’RE FINALLY READY TO DO IT
3. (C) Like others in his position, Hakopian told Emboff that there were many factors driving his decision to emigrate, but that the political instability from Armenia’s post-election crisis was pivotal in dashing any remaining hopes he had for the country to right itself after independence. Far from being an LTP supporter, Hakopian harshly criticized the ex-president, basing his assessment on his father’s intimate relationship with LTP while both worked as researchers at Armenia’s Matenadaran Manuscript Museum. Hakopian placed blame for the fatal clashes of March 1 on both sides, and said the instability it continued to cause in society gave him little hope that any of the current political leaders could — or wanted to — remedy the situation.
wikileaks:
4. (C) Alexanian, who voted for Sargsian, said mounting economic uncertainties initially inspired his emigration plans, prompting him and his business partners, two of whom are his brothers, to diversify their real estate development business outside of Armenia. Alexanian said doing business in Armenia is increasingly “tough,” and opened his arms wide to show how many licenses he had to obtain this past year before he could begin development of a small hydropower facility in southern Armenia. He vented that “one never knows what new laws will be passed,” and that this factor is damaging to his present and future business plans. He was frustrated that Russian business partners with whom he invested in commercial real estate in Yerevan last year have now suspended their plans to develop the property in light of YEREVAN 00000375 002.2 OF 003 the political crisis. Alexanian also lost a business associate to emigration one month ago, to Canada, who also took his wife and young family. One of his brothers immigrated to Prague last year, and Alexanian has visited the Czech capital four times in the past 18 months to assess real estate options there. He said once he finds the right property to buy in Prague, he will take his wife, who is employed in Yerevan by the British internet firm Lycos, and his five-year-old son to begin a new life in Prague.
wikileaks:
WE WERE ALWAYS TOLD THINGS WOULD IMPROVE
5. (C) Alexanian and Hackopian consider themselves true patriots, and say they will not become “those Armenians” who never return to Armenia after emigration. But both worried out loud about raising their sons in today’s increasingly authoritarian Armenia, where they say education has completely broken down, where merit means practically nothing, and future career possibilities are limited by one’s class and clan affiliations. Alexanian hoped that his son would not have the tough time he was having pursuing his chosen career. He repeatedly lamented the fact that his parents had been let down by Soviet and later Armenian leaders’ promises that living conditions for their kids would be better than their own. “I want my family to live for the now” vented Alexanian, and “I don’t want to be like my mother” whose dreams for a better life for her sons have not materialized.
wikileaks:
8. (C) Prominent members of the opposition have contacted us about asylum and/or the issuance of tourist visas to ride out the crisis in the United States. One of these is Tigran Ter-Petrossian, LTP,s nephew, who LTP lieutenants say is hiding out in the United Arab Emirates fearful for his life. LTP’s confidants have asked the Embassy to help with a tourist visa, and insist that Tigran has no intention of applying for political asylum once in the United States. (NOTE: We’ve explained to LTP’s representatives that since we cannot establish the bona fides of Tigran’s case, we cannot intervene to issue a visa, and that he would have to apply at our consulate general in Dubai like everyone else. END NOTE.) LTP’s son David went to Los Angeles before the election at the urging of his father, again presumably out of concern for his son’s life. To our knowledge he has yet to return. (NOTE: While it’s difficult to ascertain the validity of these allegations, it is undeniable that violence YEREVAN 00000375 003.2 OF 003 has plagued the development of Armenia’s post-independence political culture. END NOTE.)
This is what wikileaks:
9. (C) Emigration from Armenia is nothing new. It has been estimated that since its independence from the USSR, Armenia has lost 1,000,000 of its citizens to emigration — almost one third of its 3.5 million pre-independence population. What appears to be a new development, however, is the hemorrhaging of successful middle-class citizens who decided to stick out post-independence growing pains only to see that their wait has been for naught. The loss of these individuals is significant: they would stay if they thought the country was headed in the right direction. But their decision to pull up their tent stakes now, after one of modern Armenia’s gravest political crises to date, suggests that a serious malaise has taken deep root in society. Disillusioned, the once-committed appear to have lost faith that their government cares about improving their welfare or moving the country forward. END COMMENT.
thank me for the post
Jirayr – No one here advocates classification of Armenians as Diasporans or Hayastantsis or Sudanese. From what I see, those who respond to Avery’s post dispute his (understandable) national security concern that he attempts to put above citizens’ inalienable right to criticize their unelected, narrow-minded, self-centered, and inherently corrupt governments. Whether a citizen is an Armenia-Armenian, Artsakh-Armenian, American-Armenian, or Lebanese-Armenians, unless he or she lives in the Republic and has a right to vote, it is his or her right to express concern about the country he or she lives in and the regime that rules the country. This has nothing to do with Armenia-Diaspora relations. It is pertinent to every citizen’s constitutional right to criticize the government, especially when both the citizens and the Diasporans know too well, that none of those governments were brought to power as a result of popular vote. I’m more than certain that change will come from within, not as a result of an impact caused by an external threat. Diasporans are concerned, and their concern is totally understandable, but instead of reacting to a commentator’s rightful remark about unelected president as inability to “see through the fog that is thrown up by our enemies,” I think ways should be found to engage Diaspora Armenians more actively in the Republic. I strongly doubt that this will result in elected presidents any time soon, but this will bring an important new element into the societal life, for sure.
And, Jirayr, Diasporan assistance to Armenia is not very small to be conditional. I have no figures for Armenian-Americans, but Russian Armenians’ contributions are quite impressive. Even if the assistance is very small, it can be made conditional as a mechanism of political pressure. If we add up to “Diaspora” those who left Armenia as permanent residents or gastarbeiters in other countries, their assistance (mostly to the families and projects) compared to the budget of the Republic of Armenia is actually quite substantial.
Avery: Not that I want to have the last word in this discussion (and I agree, we have to “meet” at another thread), but I could bring up tons of counterarguments against all three who you think have proven “they are no shrinking violets”. The problem in debating with people like you is that you see the forest while we, people who actually live or lived for a very long time in Armenia, see the trees. Both visions are important, but for us the well-being of the people is the indicator of how well a president did or does during his tenure. External factors—wars, conflicts, tsunamis, etc.—of course have impact on this, but, again, you failed to show how in a “no-war/ dormant conflict/blockade” situation, the external threat can have influence on a mayor slapping a presidential advisor, or on artificial rise of currency rates, or on skyrocketing prices, or on new castles for the nouveau riches, or on a customs official tapping a bribe for a box of humanitarian assistance sent from abroad? Hope to get an insight from you in another thread… P.S. Relatives/friends who give you different–sometimes diametrically opposing–impressions: from ‘hell’ to ‘paradise.’ Not that I disagree that is the case, but have you ever thought as to for what percentage of the population it may be “hell” and for what percentage of the population it may “paradise”?
mjm: I don’t mind you having the last word. And I don’t mind being bested by a better debater; I am good at a lot of things, but there is always one better than you (generic ‘you’)….Not that I am conceding that you, or anyone else is better.
I post and discuss issues on ArmenianWeekly and Asbarez threads: if I lose an ‘argument’, I lose and ‘argument’ (not that they are arguments).
Some people see things my way, others don’t: I know from experience that more often than not, two people will look at the same picture, and see two different things. Also, from experience, it is near impossible to convince someone of your viewpoint, if they are not already mentally ready to accept it. Sort of like “When you are ready, the teacher will appear”. I have changed my mind on a bunch things that I previously believed to be true; but did it after convincing myself based on newer input, re-analysis of older data and beliefs in view of the new, and such.
The only time I’ll go the distance and (try to) have the last post is against Turks and ‘Azeris’ (in quotes), like Robert, Ahmet, Murat, and their ilk: I won’t let them have the last word, if I can help it. Other than occasional comments, I try not to get in the middle of discussions with righteous Turks like Cetin, Tuna, memik and their like minded countrymen, although I follow and read them in detail.
For example: you, Boyajian and others did a great job debating memik [‘Pelosi Fails to Schedule Vote, Receives Praise from Assembly’ thread](posts were way too long though: hard to keep track).
I was disappointed you didn’t continue with Maxime Gauin [‘Nancy’s Choice’ thread]; perhaps the thread had reached the point of exhaustion. He needed a good ‘whipping’, which I don’t believe he got on that thread.
————-
Since you posed additional discussion items, I don’t mind continuing […and until or if Eds take Jirayr’s suggestion above]
Again, when we reach the point of exhaustion at the end of this thread, you are most welcome to have the last post.
[mjm1A] ….forest while we, people who actually live or lived for a very long time in Armenia, see the trees.”
[av1A] Do you currently live in Armenia ? If not, where do you currently live ? How long did you live in Armenia before leaving, if not currently there ?(No need for precise dates/numbers, approximates: I already posted above where I was born and where I live now).
[mjm1B] “The problem in debating with people like you is that you see the forest while we, people….
[av1B] I can say the same thing about you, except in reverse. I don’t see it as a problem. I believe macro forces that operate over the world supersede and will – more often than not – overwhelm micro forces. You believe the opposite: where is the problem ? Who decides whether my thinking is right or yours ? Answer: nobody. Or perhaps Mr. Time.
[mjm3] “Not that I disagree that is the case, but have you ever thought as to for what percentage of the population it may be “hell” and for what percentage of the population it may “paradise”?”
[av3] yes: there is no doubt in mind, based on my conversations with my childhood buddy in Yerevan, my relatives living in RoA, and those who visited, that a small percentage live a life of luxury; there is no middle class to speak of; most people just get by. I have not heard of people not having ‘full bellies’, as you noted previously. I am not aware of cases of malnutrition: there may well be, but I have not heard of cases from anyone spoken to.
To keep this post (relatively) short, we’ll discuss the item about the presidents next, then after that my macro-view on external forces vs. internal situation after the presidents.
TYPO:
[mjm3] -> [mjm2]
[av3] -> [av2]
1. Instead of posting about our Cause, we are only criticizing each other, but I want to finalize my thoughts. From my personal experience, the situation in Armenia is a little better, but the complains and desire to leave the country is partially due to psychological pressure, and believes. We are migrant nation which helps the economy. From wikileaks as we can see even greedy middle class is moving away.
2. I do not like LTP at all, after he blew up the helicopter carrying our fedayens, resold Shamuyan, betrayed Arabo jokat, did not liberate Nakhichevan, did not capitulate azeristan, etc… I could not believe that there were still Armenians who supported LTP in 2008, this was an attempt to bring orange revolution.
3. I do not see any real opposition, but I hope that whoever wants change, is a change agent rather than a self-destructive agent.
Avery, mjm, everybody is greedy, everybody is trying to get that seat, but nobody cares about the general public, and if you bring change it may get worse before it gets better. Serj can not make everybody happy, it is impossible. The only thing he can do is having a strong law enforcement structure with the spirit of the rule of law, this is the only option that is open to fight corruption, hooliganism, and other criminal activities… there is no other choice, we can not tolerate self destruction and corruption any more….if he can not do it, than “change agents” have to come up with somebody better…No LTP please…
Goodbye everyone,
Avery.. Hovo provided some addition information on emigration… obviously there is a HUGE PROBLEM of how the Armenian govt is running our country.. do you agree???
I don’t know why you feel uncomfortable or unwilling to voice/share this problem that is currently eating away our country and people?
G
but i have to say this Avery… what you said above……
The only time I’ll go the distance and (try to) have the last post is against Turks and ‘Azeris’ (in quotes), like Robert, Ahmet, Murat, and their ilk: I won’t let them have the last word, if I can help it
now this i really really liked…:) Glad we are on the same page on this topic..:)
G
Avery: I don’t mind continuing the discussion in this thread if it’s OK with AW moderators, but I think before I go ahead you’d need to reciprocate a solution (an opinion, rather) to the one that I put on the table per your request. I’m afraid you never explained in what way the “mortal danger Armenia is still in” and Armenia’s being “in the middle of tough, inhospitable land, [and the kind of] neighborhood” affects the fact that a president can be unelected, or a presidential advisor can be slapped by a mayor, or a currency rate can be artificially jacked up against all rules of free market, or foodstuff prices can skyrocket while castles for the rich and new luxury buildings and cafes in downtown Yerevan multiply? Of course, these are just examples, and I don’t expect you to try to explain every single ugly event. But please do reciprocate and try to explain the connection between the “mortal danger Armenia is still in” and the perceived inability of some commentators here to “see through the fog that is thrown up by our enemies” and “spend some time outside of narrow Armenian politics, look around the world.” In particular, why would calling an unelected president “unelected president,” as Gayane did, is “fog that is thrown up by our enemies”? This has nothing to do with “two people looking at the same picture, and seeing two different things” or who “better debater” is. I’d respect your opinion as much as I respect Gayane’s, if you lay out to us any connection between external threat(s) to Armenia and internal governmental misconduct. I also think you contradict yourself: if you admit that some people see things your way, others don’t, then why would you need to react on other commentators’ opinion that Serj is an “unelected president”? Very many people think so…
gayane:
re: “… obviously there is a HUGE PROBLEM of how the Armenian govt is running our country.. do you agree???…”
Yes: I agree, but I disagree that another President/Gvmt, any other President/Gvmt can do any better under the geopolitical conditions RoA is in, the neighborhood it’s in, how it came to be, i.e. a progeny of the Soviet Union, where graft, nepotism, absence of rule-of-law was institutionalized for about 80 years (4 generations)…a whole bunch of reasons.
re: “…I don’t know why you feel uncomfortable or unwilling to voice/share this problem that is currently eating away our country and people?”
If you read my posts above carefully, you should be able to see why. Obviously there is only so much any one of us can write on these posts, before everyone’s eyes glaze over…and you lose them.
re Hovo’s Wikileaks posts. All Armenia-related posts are from circa 2008. The information listed there would be largely true. However, please also be aware that unlike the crude methods of Soviet era propaganda – outright falsehoods – Western method is an art form: among its tenets – you only release to the public what suits your purposes.
Same thing is done to the faux news in the West: they don’t outright lie, but rather selectively publish what suits their agenda, thus creating a false reality.
Diplomatic cables are not really, really secret: real secrets never see the light of the day.
I will not say anything about what Hovo says in his (2.)
—————
BTW: Are you the young lady currently living in Armenia that wrote a heart-wrenching post a while back about having spent years obtaining a graduate level degree and not being able to find a decent job ? (… also indicated that Georgia has much better living conditions….)
Whoever that person was: some things burn into one’s memory. That post definitely has been burned into my permanent memory.
Yesterday, AAA finally made a statement… Less any apologies!
http://www.aaainc.org/index.php?id=7&no_cache=1&newsID=333
I don’t even know if we can trust this statement to be true…
Avery, i think you got that one right, are you talking about Armine (specially, golden castels in Yerevan)….so who cares? Mjm is entitled to her opinion.
Second, Avery, you told me: “you only release to the public what suits your purposes”, you are wrong, indeed, there are another two about porn and mafia, but i do not want to realse them, third it does not suit my purpose, I have posted it in order to have some discussions, that is how it works in Democracy. I do not have any purpose in this thread or any other thread, I just do this as a hobby. It is not about who is right and who is wrong, it is about what is right and what is wrong.
I do not know who is elected or unelected, i did not vote, and did not count the votes, i could, but did not want to (I am dual) in 2008. If Serj is not elected than who is? Levon??? I do not think so…
4, Meanwhile you did not want to response my second, because you knew that I was right and you were wrong. Yes, you can fight any private army in the country, if you have a strong police force, just like in US. I think the presidents in any country, they are just reactors, not actors, and they are present in their terms, and they see how the events are happening around them. The goverment of Armenia does not want to curb emigration, because of the isolation and economic reasons, which is benificial for short term, but not long term, but let us agree that there is a lots of problems, that some goverment members should do more…and if we start to press the opposition we may never get any progress, that’s why in healthy society there is always some opposition… Avery my family is still living in AR, I can bring them here, but I do not want to and i will not, does not matter who is the president…Anyway, we are just talking bla, bla, bla,, we will see when the war starts who is the real patriot, and who is good in front of the laptop, this is what that one can bring to the table (if you are he)….
Mjm, don’t worry, we gonna give you the seat, relax, chill out………………………………
Hovo: I was of better opinion of you based on your posts… I thought you address the concern as I and others do. It turns out that your understanding of things revolves around “seats”…
mjm:
re: “… but I think before I go ahead you’d need to reciprocate a solution…”
will do: I owe you one…in a couple days or so.
(“…so much to do, so little time…”)
Hovo:
re: “…Avery, i think you got that one right, are you talking about Armine (specially, golden castels in Yerevan)….so who cares? Mjm is entitled to her opinion…”
I was referring to gayane, not mjm: no idea if mjm is male or female. (…maybe you remember better, maybe it was Armine, and not gayane). Show me where in my post, any post, where I have said gayane, or mjm, or anybody else is NOT entitled to their opinion. And if you had actually read my posts, you’d figure out why I ‘cares’.
re: “…Second, Avery, you told me: “you only release to the public what suits your purposes”, you are wrong, indeed,…”
If you read the entire paragraph, what precedes that particular phrase (Western method), it should be clear it is referring to generic ‘you’, not you specifically. I should have used the generic ‘one’: it would have been less confusing; my mistake.
(please re-read what I said to gayane: what I was trying to convey is that whatever is leaked to Wikileaks is not necessarily the whole picture: I was not saying you, yourself, selectively posted stuff)
re: “…Meanwhile you did not want to response my second, because you knew that I was right and you were wrong
Nope: the reason I did not respond is not because I know you are right. I have no problem admitting when I am wrong, when evidence convinces me otherwise.
And finally, Hovo, my friend: although I think you are trying to bait me, to get into some kind of ‘argument’ with me – it will never happen.
As noted previously, with Armenian posters and righteous non-Armenians I just exchange viewpoints.
My venom is reserved for the likes of Robert, not because I know them personally, or have anything against him/them personally.
I do it because what ‘Robert’ and his buddies are engaged in is Information Warfare, specifically Anti-Armenian, Pro-Turkish Propaganda and dissemination of Disinformation.
‘Robert’ may be one person, or a group run by some Turkish association.
In either case, it is important to checkmate them at every step, because…although these Posts are local, eventually they end up in the world-wide-web (Google), and because .there are things like casus belli, world opinion and such – which have an impact on hot wars.
(and no, I don’t consider writing a post in the same league as actually facing a tank that’s coming at you, or someone hosing you with machine gun fire)
Ops, mjm, I got it wrong-=if you are not armine then disregard my previous message,
Avery, i think you are doing a good job with regard the information war.
Avery.. sorry to dissapoint but I am not that young lady.. can’t say I read about her either.. but I am the young lady who says it as she sees it.. and what i see in our current or past govt is nothing but BS and cowardice.. I know you do not agree with some of my view points but i am ok with that… all i know is that the country could have been much better if we had leaders who are truly educated, who have sense of urgency and who have balls….and most of all liked by the people and who will work for the people and not against the people…unfortunately i do not see anyone with these qualifications running our country now..
I believe that every govt is corrupt including our US oF A; however no matter how corrupt US is, at least it has laws that are being followed for the most part… at least there is order in this country… we don’t even have a small % of that in Armenia… Current govt budies can’t run our own country and promote order and law.. let alone deal with international sharks… hence, why i said what i said about our President and his mafia… it is sad, truly sad… but i hope that as months and years go by, our country will fall into more in-line with what democracy truly is and promote fairness, justice and freedom to exercise what will benefit the individual as well as the country…
Even though I know we have difference of opinions Avery, I am happy to hear that you are strongly against people like Roberts and ilk and those who spread Anti-Armenian propaganda via internet….I am with you 100% on that…
Gayane
Gayane – For natural reasons, only people who actually live or lived most of their life in Armenia would understand that avoiding to call things—including our past or present presidents—by their names has nothing to do with inability to see through the fog that’s thrown up by enemies and mortal danger Armenia is in. Societal change normally comes about from within a state. Domestic societal order helps ward off external threats, not the other way round. As you may know, the Soviet Union was one of the mightiest, if not THE mightiest, state militarily, but it collapsed because domestically it lacked proper governmental organization, sound economic reforms and infrastructures, and basic civil rights for the population. I think those who attempt to explain our government’s mismanagement by external geopolitical factors only play in the hands of such governments who suppress the people by feeding them fairy tales about “mortal danger” as a reason of their inability to rule in the interests of the people, not their own pockets…
Absolutely Arsen jan… shat chisht es… If the mega mighty Russia fell due to all the reasons we discussed, then there is no room to dissect what is going on in ARmenia… because it is obvious as to why such things happen and will happen if the govt does not step up his game and take people seriously as well as promote democracy, justice, fairness and understanding…
G