Armenians worldwide were scandalized last week by Vice President Joe Biden’s revelation that Pres. Sargsyan had told him: “look, do not force this issue [Armenian Genocide recognition] now, while we are in negotiations [with Turkey].”
Biden’s statement posted later that day on YouTube—www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-vVX2B1H3k—was so shocking that most Armenians refused to believe that Pres. Sarkisian would have discouraged the American President from recognizing the Armenian Genocide! Some went as far as to question if the speaker shown on video was really Biden, and if his words had been altered. Others wondered about the identity of the young man conversing with Biden, suspecting him to be an impostor or a foreign agent.
Given the far-reaching consequences of the words attributed to Pres. Sargsyan, his press secretary immediately issued a categorical denial. Two days later, the US Embassy in Armenia issued a clarification/retraction. Taking into account these confusing and contradictory statements, I will try to shed some light on the lesser known aspects of this episode:
1) The young man speaking with VP Biden on YouTube is not an impostor. He is an Armenian-American activist.
2) It is not widely known that right after Pres. Obama issued his April 24, 2009 commemorative statement, Biden phoned three prominent Armenian-Americans. He informed them that Pres. Obama had omitted the Genocide word from his statement after Pres. Sargsyan gave his consent during a phone call with the Vice President. Clearly, Biden was using his conversation with Sargsyan to excuse Pres. Obama’s failure to keep his campaign promise to Armenian-Americans.
3) Biden repeated the same statement last week, this time on video. He was trying to win over Armenian-Americans to support Democratic candidates in the tightly contested November 2nd elections. When the young man asked Biden what message did he have for the Armenian community which was “burned” or deceived by Pres. Obama, the Vice President reassured him that the administration was “not backing off” from its promise on the Genocide. He added: “The Turks have to come to the realization of what the reality is.” Biden then conveniently blamed Sarkisan for Pres. Obama’s lack of acknowledgment of the Armenian Genocide. The Vice President concluded his comments by cynically stating with a chuckle: “Reality has a way of intruding.”
4) Armen Arzumanian, Pres. Sarkisian’s press secretary, issued a prompt rebuttal, stating that the President “did not use the expression ascribed to him in the video, directly or indirectly.” Arzumanian boldly called upon the White House to release the transcripts of the two phone conversations between Pres. Sargsyan and VP Biden in April 2009.
5) On October 29, the US Embassy in Armenia reacted by announcing that during his two phone conversations with Biden in April 2009, “Pres. Sarkisian did not raise the issue of the content of Pres. Obama’s statement for Armenian Remembrance Day or seek a delay in consideration of House Resolution 252.” This carefully worded statement was meant to soothe the Armenian government’s severe irritation at Biden’s surprising disclosures.
It would have been far more informative, however, had the U.S. government released the transcripts of the two phone conversations between Pres. Sarkisian and VP Biden. The Armenian side could have also clarified matters by releasing its transcripts of the phone calls, if they were taped, or a summary record. Furthermore, since the two leaders were using an interpreter, it would be interesting to compare Pres. Sargsyan’s Armenian words with those translated into English–which was what Biden actually heard!
In the absence of a transcript, outsiders have no knowledge of what was actually said during these phone calls. Yet it is clear that starting in early 2009, Obama administration officials were pressuring the Armenian government to sign an agreement with Turkey, so they could use it as an excuse for not recognizing the Armenian Genocide. And that is exactly what happened, when Armenia and Turkey signed a preliminary agreement, “a roadmap,” on the eve of April 24, 2009. Pres. Obama quickly capitalized on it. In his “Armenian Remembrance Day” statement, he avoided the word genocide by claiming that Armenia and Turkey “have agreed on a framework and roadmap for normalization.”
The controversy regarding what Pres. Sarkisian may have told Vice President Biden is one more unwelcome outcome of the Armenia-Turkey Protocols. However, the video had the unintended side effect of raising the Armenian Genocide issue to the highest echelons of the U.S. government and received coverage by worldwide media. A week before the Armenian activist’s conversation with Vice President Biden, Armine Babayan of Los Angeles also had an important personal encounter. She had the rare opportunity to speak directly with Pres. Obama about the Armenian Genocide during his campaign stop in Las Vegas. Turkish denialists must not be too pleased that within one week the President and Vice President of the United States were reminded of their unfinished agenda on the Armenian Genocide.
Harut Sassounian
The whole sordid affair is pitiful. After the failure of the protocols, the Armenians started giving the AR administration some credit that maybe they knew the protocols were going to fail that is why they played so meekly towards the Turks. With this new revelation it is clear that the intent was to sell Armenia to the highest bidder. It is unfortunate that the Armenian government consists of some seriously flawed armatures and it is going no where. It is also sad that a lot of Diaspora Armenians are staying on the sidelines and criticizing instead of getting in the field and playing. Armenians are far more intelligent and talented than they give themselves credit. They should actively get involved in the Armenian affairs and visit Armenia often, to make a difference. The best way to combat the current hopeless situation is by involvement. But then again maybe staying on the sidelines and criticizing is genetic!!
Beware of obama’s promises and his empty suit entourage – the democrats have proven themselves to be sell outs, have folded under the turk lobbyists, have folded under China, have been weak in action with Iran, and are planning to screw Cyprus over, as well as Armenia> READ THIS AGENDA FROM CANA>
TUESDAY –VOTE FOR GRIMM AND DEFEAT TURKISH LOBBY MCMAHON
On election day, this Tuesday, please make sure to vote for Michael Grimm,
Republican candidate, who is running against Congressman Michael McMahon (D-NY),
who voted against the Armenian Genocide resolution and then accepted campaign
contributions from Turkish interests, who opposed the resolution less than three
weeks later.
McMahon is a strong supporter of the racist Turkish-British Bizonal Bicommunal
Federation plan for Cyprus, which laid the foundations for the Annan Plan that
would have falsely legitimized the illegal Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974,
would have allowed the illegal Turkish settlers to remain in homes and
properties stolen from Greek-Cypriots by the Turkish military and would have
ultimately transformed Cyprus into a Turkish protectorate with British bases,
after the eventual forced migration of all Greek-Cypriots and all other
indigenous Christian minorities on the island — Latins, Arab Maronites and
Armenians.
This is going to be a very close election and you are going to make the
difference. This district is traditionally Republican, which is why McMahon is
so vulnerable. Make the difference that will defeat Armenian Genocide denial
and Turkish Bizonalists. Vote for Grimm!
We provide an analysis and a breakdown of the many times McMahon met and got
funding from the Turkish lobby by way of his very own legislative assistant Naz
Durakoglu.
Is is the view of the Cyprus Action Network of America (CANA), and the evidence
supports that McMahon is a deceitful genocide denier and is dangerous. He sits
on the House Foreign Relations Committee and is considered Turkey’s “rising
star” in Congress. *Turkish lobbyists have even circulated an unsigned letter
to residents with Greek names in a last ditch effort to support Turkish
lobbyist McMahon ,Turks fighting like “thieves in the night”. We include a copy
of this letter at the very bottom in PDF.
Oct 31, 2010
Defeat the Turkish Lobbyist McMahon: Vote for Michael Grimm on Nov 2, 2010
By Alex Aliferis
On November 2, 2010, Greek Americans should vote for Michael Grimm against
pro-Turkish Congressman Michael McMahon.
Congressman McMahon (D-NY-13) is in bed with the Turkish government and its
denial campaigns against the Armenian Genocide. McMahon takes a pro-Turkish
stance on Cyprus when he supports Turkish plans for bizonal, bicommunal
federation. The bizonal bicommunal federations plans, are essentially, racist
Turkish-British plans to falsely “legitimize” a partition on the Hellenic island
of Cyprus, destroy the independent Republic of Cyprus, and eventually forcibly
transform it into a Turkish protectorate with British bases. McMahon never
issued a statement that condemns the illegal Turkish military occupation, or its
war crimes on Cyprus such as murders and rapes.
McMahon refused to cosponsor the H.Res. 252, Armenian Genocide resolution. He
ignored Greek American constituents to cosponsor H.Res. 252.
On February 10, 2010, the Turkish Coalition of America honored Congressman
Michael McMahon in a special dinner event. You can see a video of McMahon’s
speech there at: http://www.historyoftruth.com/videos/5580-tca-presentation-for-reps-wexler-and-mcmahon-part-1.
McMahon is also on video touting our need for Turkey here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh_0lMtmDoU&NR=1. To learn more about McMahon and
his tremendous efforts to support and defend Turkey
and
Azerbaijan , you can visit the ANCA website and review his record and notes at
the bottom of the page. http://anca.org/legislative_center/election_housecard_detail.php?id=409&suffix=111
Michael Grimm has a long history of serving his country. He is a U.S. Marine
Corps veteran of the Persian Gulf War and former FBI Special Agent, and has won
endorsements from the New York State Conservative Party, Rudy Giuliani, John
McCain, Guy Molinari, and many others.
“I applaud our representatives from both sides of the aisle for working together
on this resolution. As a combat veteran of the Marines and as a former FBI
Agent, I am sensitive to international relations, specifically with Turkey
. However, there is right and there is wrong, and genocide is clearly wrong. Now
is the time to bring the vote to the floor,” said Grimm.
On May 19, 2010, Michael Grimm stated, “Many people are unaware of the
violence and genocide perpetrated against the Pontian Greek population in Asia
Minor at the hands of the Turkish government during the early part of the
twentieth century, or the genocides that befell the Armenian and Assyrian
populations of the region.
“It is important for all New Yorkers and all Americans to recognize Pontian
Greek Genocide Remembrance Day because it is only by recognizing these tragic
events will we prevent their repetition in that region of the world and
elsewhere,” said Grimm.
On November 2, 2010, Greek Americans in the New York 13th will vote for
truth, rule of law, genocide recognition, when they flock to the polling
stations to vote for Michael Grimm against pro-Turkish funded Congressman
McMahon.
HIGHLIGHTS OF MCMAHON’S SPEECHES:
Here is some information, which will be helpful to circulate to Greek Americans,
showing just how close McMahon is to Turkish foreign agents and Azerbaijani
interests. The parliament of Azerbaijan’s Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic
issued a resolution recognizing the ‘Turkish Cypriot North’ (The Turkish
Republic of Northern Cyprus) as a sovereign state. While this recognition is not
regarded by Azerbaijan and internationally as ‘official state-to-state’,
Azerbaijan itself maintained cordial unofficial relations with the ‘TRNC’. In
2004, Azerbaijan threatened to formally recognize the ‘TRNC’ if the Annan Plan
was voted down by the Greek Cypriots.
To learn more about McMahon and his tremendous efforts to support and defend
Turkey and Azerbaijan, you can visit the ANCA Armenian National Committee of
America website and review his record and notes at the bottom of the page.
http://anca.org/legislative_center/election_housecard_detail.php?id=409&suffix=111
Even though he has more than 10 times more Greek American, than Turkish American
constituents, he has been far closer to Turkish interests.
On February 10, 2010, the Turkish Coalition of America honored Congressman
Michael McMahon in a special dinner event. You can see a video of McMahon’s
speech there at: http://www.historyoftruth.com/videos/5580-tca-presentation-for-reps-wexler-and-mcmahon-part-1
McMahon is also on video touting our need for Turkey here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh_0lMtmDoU&NR=1
CONTACTS WITH TURKISH OR AZERBAIJANI FOREIGN AGENTS:
2/12/2009 – Richard Gephardt of the Gephardt Group met with Rep. Michael McMahon
(D-NY) regarding US -Turkey relations and Transcaucasus relations.
4/29/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Rep. Mike McMahon
and Naz Durakoglu (Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
5/11/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC emailed and spoke with Naz
Durakoglu (Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
5/12/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC emailed Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
5/22/2009 – Allison Shulman of the Dickstein Shapiro, LLP emailed Chris
McCannell regarding an invitation to lunch with the Turkish Ambassador..
5/29/2009 – Allison Shulman of the Dickstein Shapiro, LLP emailed Chris
McCannell regarding an invitation to lunch with the Turkish Ambassador..
6/1/2009 – Allison Shulman of the Dickstein Shapiro, LLP emailed Chris McCannell
regarding an invitation to lunch with the Turkish Ambassador..
6/15/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC teleconferenced Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
7/14/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
8/4/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
8/6/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
9/10/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC emailed Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
9/11/2009 – Catherine Goode of the Gephardt Group Government Affairs, LLC
emailed Chris McCannell (Chief of Staff) regarding US-Turkey Congressional
Caucus Lunch.
9/22/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC emailed Chris McCannell
(Chief of Staff) regarding US-Turkish relations.
9/22/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC teleconferenced Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
10/5/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assisstant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
10/11/2009 – Janice O’Connell of the Gephardt Group Government Affairs, LLC
emailed Naz Durakoglu (Legislative Assistant) regarding signing of Armenia
Turkey normalization protocols.
10/19/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC teleconferenced Naz
Durakoglu (Legislative Assisstant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
10/29/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC emailed Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assisstant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
11/6/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
11/20/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US Turkish relations.
12/2/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US Turkish relations.
12/9/2009 – Curt Clifton Robert Mangas of the Dickstein Shapiro, LLP met with
Mike McMahon regarding attending a fundraiser for Rep. Mike McMahon.
12/9/2009 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC teleconferenced Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US Turkish relations.
1/21/2010 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC emailed Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US Turkish relations.
2/9/2010 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC teleconferenced Naz Durakoglu
regarding US-Turkish relations.
2/22/2010 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) and Chris McCannell (Chief of Staff) regarding
US-Turkish relations.
2/25/2010 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Rep. Mike McMahon
regarding US-Turkish relations.
3/2/2010 – Richard Gephardt of the Gephardt Group Government Affairs, LLC phoned
Rep. Mike McMahon regarding H.Res.252.
3/3/2010 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
3/3/2010 – Robert Mangas of the Dickstein Shapiro, LLP met with Naz Durakoglu
US-Turkish relations.
3/4/2010 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC emailed Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
3/10/2010 – Lydia Borland of the Caspian Group LLC met with Naz Durakoglu
(Legislative Assistant) regarding US-Turkish relations.
*Turkish lobbyists have even circulated an unsigned letter (in an unsigned
envelope) to residents with Greek names spreading in last ditch effort to
support Turkish lobbyist McMahon , like “thieves in the night” we include a copy
of this letter at the very bottom in PDF.
http://cyprusactionnetwork.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/MKP.303205734.PDF
####
————————————————————–
ΑΙΜΑΤΗΡΗ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ – BLOODY TRUTH (Download the Greek and English PDF book) Learn
the Truth about the Turkish terrorist organizations Volgan and TMT and the
Turkish-British racist Bizonal Bicommunal Federation plan. Volunteer for our
information tables to distribute the book.
http://cyprusactionnetwork.org/yahoo_site_admin/assets/docs/BLOODY_TRUTH__The_Book.266130049.pdf
————————————————————–
####
========================
Cyprus Action Network of America (CANA)
Email: cana@cyprusactionnetwork.org
Considering the realities mentioned in Mr. Sassounian’s article. It is hard to decide to go with any one party since none of them have really supported the Armenians. Only the ones who have a strong Armenian constitutes. I agree with Mr. Sassounian that staying away from voting is not a good solution. However, the best approach is to vote for the candidates who support the Armenian cause and vote against the ones who are Turkish supporters. This would give the Armenians the best results.
We still don’t know for sure what Sargsian said to Biden. I am sure that no one will release a phone transcript (thank goodness; I fear what Sargsian said), and I doubt a recording exists anyhow.
I wish that Mr. Sassounian would reveal the names of the three “prominent Armenian-Americans” that Biden called to say that “Pres. Obama had omitted the Genocide word.”
Were these 3 philanthropists, AAA people, ANCA people, or some others? Why the mystery and misery?
I think that what we do know is that there are some very dishonest people heading the governments in the US and Armenia. I didn’t vote for Obama and Biden.
I totally agree with what Sako says: “We still don’t know for sure what Sargsian said to Biden. I am sure that no one will release a phone transcript (thank goodness; I fear what Sargsian said), and I doubt a recording exists anyhow.”
It is clear that the general public does not have access to the facts. We are fed pieces and may then interpret them in or out of context…. usually based on our starting bias.
I believe that we need to be very careful of any perception or attempt to isolate Armenia and the diaspora. The only real strategy the Turks have in denial campaign , other than using their economic power with major corporations is to encourage the perception that the “problem” is the diaspora and that they have no issues with Armenia. Aside from doing everything we can to avoid this trap, we must take the offensive on this issue by displaying our union with Armenia at the highest level of our agenda. Let’s learn from the protocol experience… whether we care to admit it or not we gave the Turks fuel with the public dissention. It’s a hard call on where to air our differences, but let’s not be naive… with our limited position power, we need an armor of unity.Let’s suppress our egos and not allow our differnces be used against us… that goes for diaspora and Armenia…. or Antelias and Etchmiadzin…. or ANCA and AAA.
I’m with Stepan on this. We will only be weakened by in-fighting. Look for areas of agreement and build on that, always keeping the end goal of justice and security for Armenia in mind.
As with all Washingtonian criminals, the American VP is a liar. The self-destructive peasantry in Armenia’s so-called “opposition” and in the diaspora were quick to disseminate this news, as they do with every other anti-Armenia propaganda that is thrown at them by Western or Turkish intelligence agencies. The White House has more-or-less retracted the VP’s statement. Is our “opposition” courageous enough now to apologize to Mr. Sargsyan? Of course not. For our worldwide peasantry, being in the “opposition” simply means opposing anything and everything our president proposes.
Nevertheless, what clearly stands out to me is the fact that our self-destructive peasantry is more than ready to begin attacking our republic, our political leadership – but when it comes to attacking or criticizing a severely corrupt global criminal entity like Washington they of a sudden becomes nuanced and balanced. An example of this is the following comment made by an individual here: “Biden may or may not be a liar. Sargsian IS a liar.” Another example of our peasantry’s self-destructive behavior is yet another commentator here that suggested Armenians should elect Washingtonian agents Vartan Oskanyan or Raffi Hovanessian as Armenia’s president. The intellectual caliber of Armenians today amazes me.
If Armenians don’t like the way Armenia is being governed today, they should all take a close look at themselves – because any given government on earth is an accurate reflection of its people. If the dying diaspora is a genocide obsessed, disunited and an assimilated mess, if the homeland is a lawless and corrupt pigsty – its not the fault of any given president. Having said that, although its not saying much, President Saregsyan is the best president we have yet had. Under his rule, Armenia’s and Artsakh’s borders have never been safer, Armenia’s role in international politics have never been greater. It was Sargsyan’s administration’s diplomatic skill that forced Ankara to swallow its pan-Turkic pride and sit at the negotiation table with Yerevan. And, thank God, official Yerevan has finally begun distancing itself for the destructive/corrosive effects of Washington’s global empire by firmly entrenching Armenia within Russia’s orbit.
I come to these discussion board to keep reminding myself that we Armenians are Armenia’s greatest obstacle towards progress and stability.
Avetis, It was refreshing to see someone write in support of Serge Sargesyan. It has been missing. However, in spite of your claims of security the boarder is not that safe considering the number of Armenian soldiers who are being killed every month vs the number of Azeri soldiers. Second everyone knows that Joe Biden is a loose canon and shares truths in an undiplomatic way. Every time he makes a public appearance, he has many handlers to protect the Obama administration from what he might say. People who were following the protocol debacle closely believe Biden. Serge Sargesyan, his administration and the rest of the Armenians just got lucky. In any event I am glad to see someone defending him. I hope he reads your messages and tries to live up to your high praises.
Frederick,
You make a lot of sense and certainly Mr. Sassounian has also. Only vote for the candidate (senate or congressional) who will and are supportive of the Armenian Genocide. I agree in total.
Avetis: Aren’t you tired of your neurotic mantra and ad nauseams that you spit on anything and anyone other than Serjik The Unelected, calling intellectuals posting here “self-destructive peasantry”? Is this the acumen of your behavioral and civilizational capacity to collectively, without distinction, stigmatize people you don’t even know? How does this characterizes your very self? Do you think you act as an elitist patrician when you derogate others? For the hundredth time: Armenians should not “take a close look at themselves to understand the way Armenia is being governed today”, because Armenians never actually elected those who govern them today. Therefore, in no way the current ruling clique, brought to the throne by GRU, closely intertwined with a bunch of semi-literate oligarchs, is the reflection of my otherwise smart, industrious, and hard-working people.
Good for you Arsen,
Armenians did not elect semi educated, oligarchian president Sarkisian. What Armenia needs ever so desperately a president of Armenia with the spirit of Vartan Mamigonian, Avedis Aharonian, Karekin Nejteh and Khrimian Hayrig. That’s what Armenia needs today! And we need it as soon as possible!!!!
I did go to Armenia just recently and I spoke with a few young Armenians in there as well as the Mayor of Armenia and I gave him my piece of mind. However the few young and educated people that I spoke with in there, fully agreed with me and it was a pleasing outcome for my worried spirit towards the Sarkisian government’s “grave” protocols and what has transpired just a day before the commemoration of the Armenian Genocide to have the protocols signed with the Turks. That was a dispecable deed by all parties involved; the US echelons who pushed pushed and pushed Sarkisian for their own agenda to further deny the Armenian Genocide and let the whole world to be known for this too, and our weakeling oligarchian semi educated president Sarkisian who went along with it. Shame on all of them to be on the side of the denyalist Turkish government; mainly the USA; Obama and Biden who lied lied and lied to get the million and a half Armenian votes only to be on the side of the Genocidal denyalist Turks’ and push the Armenian government for their despecable deeds to as if to try to come out clean for not even mentioning the word Genocide when it was long overdue.
Today, we don’t want just a mention of the word Genocide; but reparations, our lands, our buildings is what we are long overdue! It has been for a long 95 years and Armenians didn’t have closure yet of the Armenian Genocide, nor our just rights in the form of reparations to the Armenian people and our befallen annihilated nation!!!!!
No Arsen jan, I am not tired of slapping around the self-destructive peasantry. It’s fun actually. You should try it. Nevertheless, your empty words alone validate my opinion of your kind. One day you will realize that the problem with Armenia is not the “leadership” per se. Thank God for the GRU, the FSB, the KGB, the Kremlin, Putin, Borsht, etc… Without them, Armenia today would have been either a province in Turkey, a province in Iran or a province in Azerbaijan – despite your best herculean efforts. And thank God for Kocharyan and Sargsyan, without them we would have lost not only Artsakh – but most probably parts of Armenia as well. And well meaning Armenians like you are more of a threat to the Armenian Republic than any Turk. Observing you people here, I pray to God that Armenians are never given a chance to elect anything…
Frederick,
One day, perhaps when you are older, you will realize how important the “protocols” were for Armenia.
Avetis, something must be fundamentally and pathologically wrong in your psyche if you think it’s fun(?!) to slap around your co-ethnics—collectively and indistinctively—as “self-destructive peasantry” and to glamorize everything and everyone that’s not ethnically yours, in your case, excessive Russophilia. You should know that xenophiles like you are generally considered provincials in that they typically have provincial mentality: others’ history is more glorious, others’ cultural contributions are more prominent, others’ leaders are more capable, and, finally, others’ s*** is more delicious. As it turns out, you exhibit the traits of a provincial-minded person; therefore your degradation of a whole nation as “self-destructive peasantry” first and foremost applies to your very self. The problem with any country’s misfortunes at state-building cannot be explained by the characteristics of an entire nation, because no nation is homogeneous in the way of thinking, attitudes, and worldviews. Had there been fair elections anytime in the history of independent Armenia, I’d make sure that I elect a segment in the parliament representing intelligentsia like myself, and not overwhelming profanum vulgus that bought seats in our legislative organ. One day you will realize that the problem with poor government performance in any nation is, mainly, its Illegitimacy, unaccountability, ill-understood job function, misunderstood goals, mismanagement, self-centered attitudes, mismatched abilities, etc. You may thank God for KGB, if you think it’s appropriate to thank our Lord for one of the notorious espionage organizations, but remember that Armenians had their own kingdoms and principalities, and even an empire under Tigranes the Great, without the “help” GRU, the FSB, the KGB, the Kremlin, Putin, and borsh, speaking figuratively, of course. It is a sheer primitivism to portray historical turns of events and geographical vulnerability that led to subjugation as all-national impotency to govern ourselves. You may also thank God for Kocharyan and Sargsyan, if you think it’s appropriate to thank Lord for unelected, unrepresentative, and unpopular rulers. But I’d like to remind you that, among other anti-popular moves, it was under Bobik when the protocol process started, and under Serjik when the defeatist documents were signed. If you’re worried about losing Artsakh, why aren’t you equally worried about selling the Armenian Cause and Armenia by means of humiliating protocols? I also want to refresh your memory that LTP, who might have sold Artsakh, was unseated not by Karabakhcis Bobik and Serjik, but by Yerevantsis Vazgen Sarkissian and Karen Demirchian, although classification of Armenians based on origin is inadmissible. Lastly, I cannot possibly be more of a threat to the Armenian Republic than any Turk, even I made my best herculean efforts, because it is more beneficial for Armenia to be a concerned Armenian and be Armenocentric than to be a nominal Armenian like you and be xenocentric. But you may go ahead and pray your foreign Gods… Good luck.
“degradation” should read derogation* above
Arsen jan, I am a cold realist and a political pragmatist. I will serve the foreign “gods” if it means safeguarding Armenia’s existence as a nation-state. The foreign gods you refer to, Russians, have actually sustained us for the past two hundreds years. Without their support, there would not be an Armenian state today.
Avetis, understood and, guess what, even accepted in most part. But you can state and advance your convictions without derogating co-nationals and without heavily relying on one player in a geopolitical situation in which many players are involved. As a cold realist and a political pragmatist you should realize this trivial actuality. Rigid alliances are detrimental for smaller nations, Avetis. I don’t’ give a damn whether it’d be with America or Russia or Burundi: any rigid alliance undermines a smaller nation’s performance as an independent nation-state and essentially transforms it to a client state. At this juncture, Armenia’s cooperation with Russia is vital, but it’s gone too far, inexcusably too far in terms handing over almost everything, every national asset to Russians. How do you, as a cold realist and a political pragmatist, sustain your nation-state in a broader sense of the word, if it has effectively become a client-state? Don’t you see a contradiction in your position on the issue? I believe that maintaining an optimal balance with all players involved is a better foreign policy and national security tool in sustaining and developing Armenia as a nation-state. It means playing cards wisely with all the partners. How do you do this when your hands are tied up with only one of them? I’d like to continue to debate, if you wish so, but never derogate the dignity of Armenians, their valuable contributions into the world civilization in the fields of arts, sciences, architecture, trade, and business. That we were unable to fend off hordes of barbaric nomads who reached the gates of Vienna and became a part of Ottomans, or mightier Persians, and then expansionist Bolshevik Russians, is not completely our fault. Count the blessings: whoever we were subjugated to, we could preserve our national identity and survive, sometimes miraculously. This needs to be appreciated not trampled.
My classification of “Self-Destructive Peasantry” is reserved form those who willingly or unwittingly pursue agendas (often Western) that are geopolitically and economically destructive/suicidal for the Armenian Republic. The classification in question is also reserved for the Russophobic/Cold War rejects and intellectual midgets that often times try to attack me by calling me self-hating or “Russophilic”. If you do not fall into any of the aforementioned categories, then don’t worry, you are not a part of our nation’s Self-Destructive Peasantry I constantly find myself referring to. But Gods knows, our nation, in and out of our homeland, is saturated today by the peasantry in question.
Arsen jan, I have written a lot on the topic of Russian-Armenian relations. I am not going to get into it with you here again. You seem like a smart individual. Although your political assessments and perspectives are somewhat off, you are a thinker, nonetheless. Keep observing Russia objectively, that is without the Cold War bias and the Russophobia that is still propagated by the controlled news press in the West. I am sure that you will eventually be able to answer most of your questions.
Just remember that this is a superpower that stretches from the Atlantic to the pacific, a superpower that supplies Europe with more than 50% of its energy needs, a superpower that has thousands of nuclear warheads, a superpower that is immensely wealthy in natural resources, a superpower that recently mutilated a Western backed Georgia, a superpower that has been rolling back Western successes of the 1990s all across Eurasia – a superpower that simply cannot be a equal partner to Armenia.
Armenia is only great in the minds of Armenians. Geopolitical reality dictates that a lesser nation will fully serve one master or another. For the West, the Caucasus simply is territory to be exploited for energy transfers. For Russia, the Caucasus is vital for its existence as a nation. In the unforgiving Caucasus, Armenia, a tiny, resourceless, impoverished, landlocked nation surrounded by enemies has no choice but to put all its eggs in the Russian basket.
Russia today has again become the undisputed master of Eurasia and it wants total control over the strategically vital Caucasus – and it realizes that Armenia is its most valuable/stable foothold in the region. Moscow is projecting its regional power via the Armenian platform. As a result, this is a great historic opportunity for Armenia, an opportunity the likes of which Armenia has not seen in a thousand years. Moreover, and more importantly, no Russian presence in the Caucasus means no Armenian presence in the Caucasus. Lastly, Bolsheviks were as Russian as the Ottoman Turks were Armenian. See if you understand what I just said.
Avetis, like I said, I’d agree with most of your observations. But regardless the precision that you offered for your derogatory classification of “Self-Destructive Peasantry,” I still believe it is simply unacceptable to generalize and to collectively stigmatize those who might hold different viewpoints or pursue different agendas. Everyone is correct in his or her own right. It is this wide palette of opinions and viewpoints that helps shape our collective worldview and provide foreign policy and national security options for the nation. Pardon me for this triviality, but you think that Westerners and Russophobes may pursue agendas that are geopolitically and economically destructive for the Armenian Republic. With the same token, Westerners and Russophobes may classify your political assessments and perspectives as somewhat off. If anyone knew where the truth or at least modus vivendi lied, life would be much easier…
It is sad that our nation, in and out of our homeland, is saturated today by the peasantry in question. But isn’t it true for any nation, Avetis? The majority of people are low-quality narrow-minded midgets. I think we should be more worried that the intellectual core of the nation has dwindled in the recent years and semi-literate self-centered rulers and business tycoons surfaced as a result.
I categorically disagree with you on the notion of a nation’s greatness. You seem to be an intellectual, but how can you descend so low as to define greatness only in terms of a nation’s territory, natural resources, nuclear warheads, ability to bully the neighbors and fend off other superpowers from the sphere of its vital interest? Are these the only variables that define greatness of a nation, Avetis? Then I guess lesser nations such as Greeks, Jews, Japanese, Austrians, Arabs, Persians, and Armenians, among others, should be ashamed to call themselves “great” for giving the human civilization the brightest minds in philosophy, democracy, and sciences, unmatched technological achievements, musical geniuses, cartography and medicine, literature and arts, Christianity as state religion and dome-laying techniques in architecture that would spread on all of the Europe? Ask yourself how Russia’s natural resources are put to service to their economy? Effectively? Ask yourself if Russian were ever able to manage their economy having rich natural resources? Ask yourself why visitors travelling outside of Moscow in the 21st century still see misery and poverty as it had always been throughout their history? Ask yourself why this great nation is diminishing demographically?
I don’t expect any superpower to be an equal partner to Armenia. I never said this. But I’d expect that countries have a partnership-like and not client-patron type of relations.
I also disagree that geopolitical reality dictates that a lesser nation will fully serve one master or another. Lesser nations are proven to be more maneuverable in geopolitics than mightier states. It means that, provided it’s ruled by responsible, capable government, it should not necessarily putt all eggs in the Russian basket. I don’t see any incentive for the Armenian government to transfer all national assets into the Russian hands unless they want to keep the seats on which their fat bottoms rest. It was a political treachery, not protection of the national interest.
Lastly, some of the highest ranking Bolshevik rulers were not ethnically Russian, there were many Jews, Latvians, Georgians, Armenians, etc. I understand what you mean. Regardless, all of them represented the official Russian government at the time who effectively sold Western Armenia to the Kemalist Turks. Stalin’s 1930s purges cannot be blamed on the nation of Georgia whose ethnic offspring he was. Stalin represented the Russian Soviet government.
The Armenian Republic has no choice but to fully and totally remain firmly within the Russian orbit. Playing games in this regard could be suicidal for Armenia – as Chechens found out, as Vazgen Sarkisian and Karen Demirdjian found out in 1999, as Kyrgyzstan found out recently, as Saakashvili will soon find out… Anyone that thinks Armenia – a tiny, poor, landlocked nation surrounded by enemies – has choices in this very serious matter in the Caucasus is either a Western agent, utterly delusional or simply uninformed of the geopolitical realities of Armenia. Without getting into details, I suggest you read the posted materials in the following blog to better acquaint yourself with Russian-Armenian alliance and regional geopolitics (go back a few pages and read the Caucasus Updates I through V): http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/
The Bolshevism was a foreign movement brought into the Russian Empire to destroy it. Countless millions of Slavic Christians died (including clergy, nobility and intelligentsia) as a result of the Bolshevik takeover of the Russian Empire. What most people fail to realize is that over 90% of the Bolshevik leadership and its commissars were of Jewish decent, the rest were a mix of different ethnicities. There were just as many Armenians in the movement as Russians, if not more. The Soviet Union finally attained an ethnic “Russian” flavor as an unintended consequence of Stalin’s purges (which primarily effected the Jewish ranks and file) and a result of the patriotic fervor brought upon by the Second World War.
PS: great = major/big. By all accounts, Russia is a great power – militarily, geographically, economically, politically and culturally.
OK, Avetis, this is just useless. I’m of the opinion that there are always choices even for lesser nations, and you’ll keep uttering the rubbish that anyone who thinks Armenia has choices is a Western agent. I think that fully and totally offering a country to another country might be suicidal. You think that attempting to counterbalance rigid dependency, which you call “playing games”, might be suicidal.
Eastern Armenian guberniyas of the Russian empire were fully and totally within the Russian orbit, may I remind you. However, it didn’t prevent Russian tsars from attempts at Russification of Armenians, confiscating church properties and banning publications at certain times; plans to inhabit Western Armenian lands after the Russo-Turkish wars with Don and Kuban Cossacks; attempts to stir unrest and revolts against Ottoman Turks retreating from the Caucasus front afterwards and leaving Armenian face to face with bloodthirsty Turks; signing agreements with Kemalist Turks effectively handing over Western Armenian lands to the newly-cooked Republic of Turkey; placing Armenian Artsakh under the jurisdiction of Azerbaijani Turks, etc. If you think these Russian actions at the times when Armenians were fully and totally within the Russian orbit were not disastrous for Armenia, then you can justly call yourself delusional and ill-informed. I’m not opposing Armenia’s staying within the Russian orbit at this historical juncture, but I oppose obsequious way of thinking typified by a primordial phrase “Armenia has no choice but”. For now, perhaps. But the world is evolving and Russia’s interest is by any account reciprocally full and total in regard to Armenia. You don’t really think that if a war erupts between Armenia and Azerbaijan tomorrow, Russia will fully and totally protect Armenia as a CIS Collective Security Treaty member-state against the non-member state of Azerbaijan, do you? I bet it won’t. Russia will play upon both sides in order to advance its own national interest and not the interest of a state that “fully and totally remained firmly within the Russian orbit”.
There are always choices for states and some of these choices are not mutually exclusive. I don’t see why it is unfeasible to maintain defense and national security ties with Russia but promote Western economic, civil society, and democracy-building programs? Why would Russia tell Armenia what diameter of the Iranian gas pipeline it’d prefer to pass through Armenia, for Christ’s sake? Or take all abandoned factories as part of equity for debt swap and never invest in their modernization? Is this the attitude that a lesser state that fully and totally remained firmly within the Russian orbit deserves?
I agree that Bolshevism was a movement based on a theory drafted in Germany and brought into the Russian Empire. I’d also agree that many (still doubt that it was 90% though) of the Bolshevik leadership and its commissars were of Jewish decent. Others were of Russian, Latvian, Ukrainian, Georgian, Moldovan, and Armenian ethnicities. Having said this, I consider it a sheer dilettantism to assume that a small group of ethnic Jews within the Russian society could aggravate a social unrest of an enormous magnitude, had there not been a centuries-long schism and tensions within the Russian society between the elites on the one side and peasants and workers on the other, that was deepened by the fatigue and antiwar feelings of the Russian soldiers. If we agree that 90% of the Bolshevik leadership were of Jewish decent, who were millions of army commanders, generals, soldiers, volunteers, and civilians involved in the Civil War? Were they not ethnically Russian in the most part? I consider it historically distortive to suggest that a social theory that was brought into the Russian Empire could take root in a society had there not been favorable disposition to it by the masses of people. Finally, any revolution in the classical sense of the term is a blood bath, and the Russian one wasn’t an exception.
“By all accounts, Russia is a great power – militarily, geographically, economically, politically and culturally”. Economically, Avetis? Is it a joke?
“The true greatness of a nation is not measured by the vastness of its territory, or by the multitude of its people, or by the profusion of its exports and imports; but by the extent to which it has contributed to the life and thought and progress of the world. A great nation is not one which, like Russia, has an enormous territory; or, like China, has an enormous population. It is the nation which gives mankind new modes of thought, new ideals of life, new hopes, new aspirations; which lifts the world out of the rut, and sets it going on a cleaner and brighter road. – English historian L. E. Blaze
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated” – Mahatma Gandhi
Arsen jan, you seem like a smart guy. But in my humble opinion you have a whole lot to lean about the world you live in. In some cases the truth will be stranger than fiction. In many case the truth will be very troubling for you. In most cases the truth will be something very different that what you were thought in school or observed on your television screen. The post-World War II and post-Soviet world is actually controlled by very few interconnected institutions. These financial/political entities more-or-less control what you see, read and hear about the world. They also control how one lives, how nations live, what nations are created, what nations are killed, and who gets to sit in the oval office. This is not a conspiracy theory, this is the reality. However, thanks to the unexpected rise of Russia during the past several years as a global power imposing its political/economic will, and to a lesser extent China’s growing political clout in global affairs, the current Anglo-American-Zionist global order is slowly crumbling. Anyway, I don’t expect you to agree with me. I don’t even expect you to understand what I just told you. Just keep your eyes open, keep your mind open. Learn to read in between the lines and develop critical thinking. It all will eventually make sense.
PS: I don’t have the time want to discuss/debate/argue anything in detail here with you. Just do some research on the topics we touched upon. And don’t forget to read The Rise of Russia, Eurasian Geopolitics and Russian-Armenian Relations – http://theriseofrussia.blogspot.com/
Avetis,
From your mouth to god’s ear. I hope I get to see the success of the protocols. I think it will take a very long time if ever and I will break all records for longevity!! I may even get older than Moses!!
Avetis,
I am one of those who believe, based on my extensive readings into the so-called conspiracy theories that actually reflect the reality, that starting 1960s the post-World War II and post-Soviet world is controlled by the so-called “internationalist power elites,” those sinister, manipulative supranational, supragovernmental evil forces. You don’t have to tell me this. But I also believe that there is no such a thing as TOTAL control. However, this veers away from the subject of our discussion which I enjoyed short of your insults of Armenians and underestimation of the role of lesser nations in the global politics. Have a good one.
Fredrick,
I hold no illusions about Ankara’s true intentions with regards to Armenia. I am not into singing kumbaya either. I primarily support Russo-Armenian power projection in the Caucasus. I see the “protocols” simply as a tool with which to elevate Armenia’s geopolitical stature in the region. With Moscow covering Armenia’s back militarily and economically, Yerevan has actually been approaching Ankara from a position of strength. This explains why Gul swallowed his Turkish pride and paid Yerevan a visit in autumn of 2008. This also explains why Ankara decided to omit mention of Artsakh from the document in question – although Artsakh was the reason why it had shut down the border in the first place. We need to ponder the following: if opening of Turkish borders with Armenia would indeed prove disastrous for Armenia, as our self-destructive peasantry tends to think – Ankara would have ordered it opened a loooooooooong time ago.
Had protocols been drafted as a standard Memorandum of Understanding on establishing of diplomatic relations, without mentioning of untypical for such documents provisions on historical subcommissions, recognition of existing birders of all states in the region and reaffirmation of the past signed treaties, all of us would see them as a “tool with which to elevate Armenia’s geopolitical stature in the region.” But in the form and substance they were signed we see them as humiliating for Armenia. No conflicting sides introduce contentious issues in MOUs. Russia and Japan are nominally still in the state of war, however, nowhere in the MOU they signed one could find any open or covert hint on the unresolved issue.
Gul swallowed his Turkish pride and paid Yerevan a visit not only because Moscow was covering Armenia’s back militarily and economically, but primarily because the pressure on both Armenia and Turkey from power centers that Gul was unable to disregard. The triumvirate of these power centers included not only and not so much Russia, but the European Union and the U.S.
Moscow’s covering Armenia’s back militarily and economically does not explain why Ankara decided to omit mention of Artsakh from the document in question, because Artsakh was indirectly present in the document. The provision to recognize the legal borders of ALL states in the region clearly referred to the recognition of the borders of Azerbaijan with Artsakh included. Whether or not Artsakh was omitted in the document, Turks raised the issue immediately after the signing without regard for Moscow’s covering Armenia’s back militarily and economically.
You need to ponder the following without repeating the nauseating mantra about “self-destructive peasantry”: if opening of the Turkish-Armenian border would be viewed as solely a bilateral matter, Ankara would have opened it a long time ago. But, in contrast to you, the “self-destructing peasantry” also understands that Turkey tied the border opening issue in solidarity with her Azeri brethren and in support of Azeri claims on Artsakh. Therefore, it’s not just about opening the border to bring more disaster for Armenia, but mostly because of the third party that Turks tie up with the normalization of the Turkish-Armenian relations.
As for whether or not opening of the border is disastrous for Armenia, have the self-destructive peasantry representing Serjik’s ruling clique done any research on Armenia’s trade legislation that is compatible with WTO norms but incompatible with the Turkish one? Has anyone representing the ruling peasantry in Yerevan calculated what effects the open border would have on Armenia’s economy and national security? Has anyone in the same regime done any investigation as to what impact the pen border would have from demographic and ideological perspectives? Not that I’m against open borders, but I should like to see public reports containing all these calculations before the people of Armenia decide whether opening of the border with a murderer state is safe and beneficial.