Nalbandian Slams Ankara in WSJ Op-Ed
In its Oct. 12 issue, the Wall Street Journal published an Op-Ed titled “Turkey Has Gone Back on its Word,” in which Armenian Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian harshly criticizes official Ankara for failing to ratify the protocols and returning “to the language of preconditions that it had used before the beginning of the process.”
The Op-Ed, which appears a year after the Oct. 10, 2009 agreement in Zurich between Turkey and Armenia, accuses Turkey of speaking a language other than that of Armenia and the international community:
“Turkey has attempted to link the Armenian-Turkish normalization process to the settlement of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. They say that they do not want to act as mediators in the Nagorno-Karabakh peace talks, but just negotiate between Armenians and Azerbaijanis to find a solution. Any Turkish attempts to interfere in the Karabakh process or to link the normalization of its relations with Armenia upon its own perception of progress in the Nagorno-Karabakh talks, harms both processes. This is a position that all major players involved in Armenia-Turkey normalization and Nagorno-Karabakh peace talks, the whole international community have emphasized several times. The international community speaks one language and the Turkish side speaks another one.”
Nalbandian also harshly criticizes Turkey’s denial of the Armenian Genocide and its efforts to stall genocide recognition worldwide:
“Hypocritically Turkey also uses the normalization process as a smokescreen for baseless arguments that the adoption of resolutions on the Armenian Genocide in various countries can damage the normalization process. Yet, from the beginning of the process we made clear both in our contacts with the Turkish partners as well as publicly that Armenia will never put under question the fact of the Armenian Genocide or the importance of its international recognition.”
“True reconciliation does not consist of forgetting the past or feeding younger generations tales of denial. Despite the fact that for 95 years Turkey has been continuously denying the Armenian Genocide, the Armenian side did not require its recognition by Turkey as a precondition for the normalization of the relations. Paradoxically it is Turkey that directly or indirectly has attempted to manipulate that issue, making it a precondition.”
In his concluding paragraph, Nalbandian denies the existence of any “silent diplomacy” or “a second round” of Zurich, demanding that Turkey prove good intentions through its deeds.
URAKH YENK, VOR MERONK VERJAPES TARINER ALARUMITS HETO EL TURKERIN ANPATASKHAN CHEN TOGHNUM… .. LAVE USH KAN YERBEK…
USA
Well, what where the Armenians expecting? If Armenians think Turkey will be somehow friendly or somehow positive towards them, then your in a dream world. The Turks must be pressured into concessions. Discussing the Armenian Genoside is the same as discussing gravity, turks may want to examen it or do studyes on it, but the fact remains, the Genoside of the Armenians happened, its a fact, its nonnegosional, like gravaty.
My advise to the Armenians, move on, dont depend on Turky or any other state (inc. Russa), if they reconise the genoside, great, ask for compensations in the form of land and money. In the mean time, develop the Armenian state into a democratik, free and STRONG nation. NEVER give up terratories in or around Artsakh. Be friends with your enemys enemy, Greece, Cypres, Iran, Russia, Bulgaria and more importantly EU and perhaps NATO too.
An Armenian friend.
Jan Olsen, so heart-warming to hear my feelings echoed by a non-Armenian kindred spirit. (Or are you Armenian?)
Hi Boyajian
I am from the Faroe Islands, its a few small island in the middel of the north Atlantic. :)
Your an Armenian in Armenia or part of the Diaspora?
Jan Olsen, what you are prescribing is childish. Armenia is not so strong independent or foolish to follow your prescription. Armenia needs to be forthright and negotiate from a position of strength. Eddie’s comments are long overdue that finally he is calling the Turkish government to task. Turks have played the Armenians like a fiddle for so many years that even when they sneeze the Armenians start to dance. Armenians need to rely on their strengths, take advantage of their strengths and use their small size of the country as an advantage to negotiate with all the hostile nations around them.
By the way, enemy of your enemy is not always your friend. History has proven this over and over.
Is it possible that Frederick and Jan are both right? Are your views so different?
Jan Olsen, to answer your question, I am an Armenian in the diaspora.
I agree with Jan.
Nalbandian says some good things in the WSJ. I am shocked but pleased.
But why exactly did Armenia have to agree to a “historical commission” in the Protocols? What was the necessity? How did this benefit Armenia?
And why have language in the Protocols that could be interpreted as negating Armenia’s claims to land? What was the necessity? How did this benefit Armenia?
If Turkey continues to insist that the Artsakh issue must be solved before normalization of relations with Armenia takes place, Armenia must insist that Turkey first come to an agreement on Cyprus (where Turks kicked out Armenians and their Greek Christian brothers and sisters and confiscated Armenian property).
I mean, if Turks can side with their Azeri friends, why can’t Armenia side with its Cypriot friends.
You never hear Armenia make analogies or have any claims against Turkey. Did they not teach analogies in the lousy Soviet school system?
Armenian leaders have the public relations savior faire of a drunken, blustering Stalin.
Can someone please these dull Soviet-style appatchiks that it’s the 21st century?
I am a turkish citizen and ı know that ı am not welcome among you armenians so ı will just make it quick.
In year 2003 U.S invaded iraq.After bombing the hell out of the country they ignited ethnic tensions to start a civil war. As a result around 1 million people died.The high levels of uranium from the bombings still causes new born children to have mutations.
Dont believe me ? just look it up on youtube.Now, you might ask what do average americans think about this? I give you the answer : THEY JUST DONT GİVE A DAMN!!!
you see there is a big hypocracy here why do people are so upset with one massacre
while they simply ignore an ungoing one? now lets return to armenia turkey protocols.
All of the turkish people are aware that you used to live among us.And in the final days of the ottoman empire you tried to break up and annex yourself to orthodox Russia.
Well you failed and then were brutally expelled from anatolia.I understand you didnt even get an apology for all this cruelty.While turkish people have long since forgotten these dark events you still live it as if it has just happened.And this gap is the reason why we still cant get along
For most of the Turkish people armenia is just a pathetic , insignificant nation with a population of a few million yet with no economy, no military(except for russias) no future and at war with our so called ‘brother nation’ Azerbaijan.
And we see your diaspora as a last desperate attempt to isolate Turkey from the rest of the world.
While turkish ultranationalists try to make it look otherwise, vast majority of our population is completely neutral with armenian people.It is just that your whole culture that teases us.I mean come on dont you think we know that you are trying to set up your own holocust industry Like those jews? Making tonnes of money from movies, earning oscars ,making money and propaganda at the same time
you all know this is the truth. you have already had some succes at damaging the image of the turkish people :) :)
I did my own research and cocluded that this event could be called genocide.And i firmly believe that with the settlement of karabağ conflict and normalisation of our relations
we couls educate turkish people regarding the holocaust
but for that you must also fulfill your end of the bargain. that is to end all hostilaties with azeris . cant you just live in that land together?
you must also stop hating turkish people. All i see on internet is armenians demand for retrobution on turks. seriously i think that you people realy hate us.
wel i hope you will learn to forgive us. peace
Fredrick
You don’t agree Armenia should be democratic, free or strong? for that is what i am saying.
True, one’s enemy’s enemy is not always ones’s friend, but it does not have to be, the only thing Armenia can do in relations to Turkey is to stand firm and not give in when it comes to Genocide.
I agree Armenia should use its strengths, to its advantage, but I fail to see how the size can be a strength, unless using like a weakling, the smallest in class or as the victim and then its not a position of strength but pity. Armenia is a great nation, with strong western ties and christian values, its a nation of creators; artists, craftsmen, writers and warriors.
In respect to “Eddie” we know the turks are draging there heals, we knew this before the agreement in Viena. I am just saying don’t be suprised.
Btw ones friends are not always ones friends, Armenian history has proven this time and time again.
Deniz, thank you for putting your anti-armenianism so openly on the table! Do you realize that Azeris were the aggressors? Do you realize the aggression of your own state toward us in their official denial of the truth?
Deniz
The result of the US invasion in Iraq led to as much as 1 million dead, but why do we know this? Simple, American citizens (not only US citizens) risk their lives to bring us the estimation, they have found out how many have died, and published the results of their examniations. There are also Americans advocating the impeachment of President G.W. Bush. When an American citizen is confronted by the truth of the deaths in Iraq they (for the most part) are horryfied and appauled and wish to appologise on the spot and demand action to recitify the situation, I know for I have confronted an “unknowing” American about this subject. Also this subject is not a tabu in US, not at all, listen to Dan Carlin’s podcast (www.dancarlin.com). Another difference between 1915 and 2003 is that no regular American joined in in the killing of Iraqies, it was mostly other Iraqies killing Iraqies, some insurgance, and yes American soldiers. The soldiers who where killing innocent people where put on trail.
So I would argue that 2003 can not be likened to 1915.
Why do turks think so of the Armenian nation? as you said “armenia is just a pathetic , insignificant nation…” the answer her is simple; Propaganda by the Turkish goverment! I now live in Denmark, which has be fighting Sweds and Germans for many many generations, but today they are good nabours. Why is that? well there where no genocide commited you may say, but not so, in the middel of the 15th century the Danish commited a massacre in Stokholm, later Sweden won many battels against the Danes. So there have been lots of hatred between Sweden and Denmark, but because we know ALL the history, we can continue our lives in peace.
Today few Turks are educated in history, only fictional history, hens the problems with the turk!
Oh, why do turks think Armenians dont have a military? they kciked azerbajans ass in the Karabagh war.
Lastly, stopping the protocalls because of some preconditions now, when at signing the turks agreed there should not be any conditions is tretueres and low (not uncommon in international politics).
Saying the lands of the armenians are lost and belong to the turks, thats fine, but then the same applies to Karabagh.
If the argument is that the Karabagheys had an unlawfull vote for independance and thus Karabagh must remain under azeri rule, thats ok, but then that also applies for Hayat region, which belonged to Syria, and is still contested by Syria.
Oh one more point, Armenians do not hate turks, they just want justice, if turkey appolagised in say 1919 after the great war, we would not have this problem now. Armenia will never forget, forgive if asked, but never forget.
A nonArmenian
Jan, thank you for the follow up, Boyajian may be right and we may have more in common than we think. However, we do differ on the approach. As far as the size is concerned, it could be strength. It would lead to underestimation of the Armenians. If Armenians could use that to their advantage, it could be beneficial.
Deniz, I will not answer your comments in their entirety; I believe Boyajian did a good job in the short sentences. I just quote one of your sentences here “you all know this is the truth. You have already had some success at damaging the image of the Turkish people “
Turks are doing a fine job damaging their image without any help from the Armenians. If you have any doubts please read Hurriyet Daily News at the following link http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?msg=commentsaved&n=no-turkish-delight-over-n.zealand-kebab-shop-assault-2010-09-30 . A Turkish man convicted of beating his wife while claiming it was a national Turkish dance. I don’t know which gives Turks a better image, beating their wives or having a barbaric dance.
Deniz,
Let the Armenians steal all your lands and wealth, murder 3/4 of the population and in doing so let out all the convicts for the sole purpose of raping and then burning your women, drown the children, kill all the able bodied men outright and starve the rest while they travel to an empty desert naked to die a slow death and then create laws and institutions denying any responsibility for it and actually blame your people for their own demise. After that, sure the Armenians and Turks can be friends. Why not?
Jan, janiges, thank you for your support! How did you learn so much about us?
Deniz, I feel no hate for Turks, just for your government’s official denial of the truth and for its role in deceiving you with anti-Armenian propaganda and distorted history. You don’t have the whole story. Try to question some of the things you think you know. Also feel free to ask questions here without accusations and defensiveness. Many of us welcome the opportunity for dialogue with open-minded Turks seeking the truth. We are not your enemy. The truth will blow your mind and you will never be the same.
Dave, for knowing the good, the bad and the possibilities of the protocol, I suggest you read this.
http://armenianweekly.com/2009/10/01/davidian-turkish-armenian-protocols-reality-and-irrationality/
Deniz, I really have to admit that from your comment you seemed quite educated to me.It’s commendable that you have actually looked into the Armenian Genocide, and your viewpoint looks quite logical to someone who does not know EVERYTHING about the genocide. When a person just knowing that 95 years back Armenians were murdered reads your comment, he will agree with you, ccoz it’s like PAST IS PAST….But when someone actually knows what the Armenian Genocide is, how it came about,, why was it done, what is it’s importance in history and why is it so important for it to be RECOGNIZED, then he will think you to be Pro-Turkey. I mention again, you had a few points that makes you stand out from almost all the aggressive Turks that are simply ignorant about History and all they do is abuse the Armenians,but still, if you go deeper, you will find out more. I know as a Turk you love your country, but first think about the issue as a HUMAN BEING, then as a TURK.You need to open your eyes and start accepting some bitter truth……
I think you wrote, “that is to end all hostilaties with azeris . cant you just live in that land together?”……….Armenians lived in Western Armenia (Eastern Turkey now)…..Could you ancestors not have lived with us in the same land just like the way you expect us to live with the Azeris? They could right? Then why did they commit the genocide?….Ever asked yourself? If being so good and doing the good stuff was so simple, why did your ancestors not do it??? Get the answer please……
And you say Turkis people have forgotten the dark years and are wondering why the Armenians remember?,..We kicked Azeris’ ass and liberated Karabagh….1991-1994 were the so called BLACK YEARS for the Azeris….Why don’t they forget these black years too just as you Turks have forgotten OUR BLACK YEARS???? Why do you, the very same nation that have forgotten 1915 still remember the loss you faced in Karabagh and demand that it be given back to Azerbaijan????Forget it if it’s so damn simple??? Not easy is it? Saying is one thing, doing is another right? So my friend, just check out the log that’s in your eye before pointing out the twig in ours…God Bless..
Deniz said: ” cant you just live in that land together?”
Deniz, you don’t know what you are asking. We tried that for 500 years and were treated as second class citizens on our own lands, not allowed to give testimony in court, not allowed to bear arms, paid unfair taxes, etc., When the CUP promised us reforms and reneged, we were murdered for our efforts to secure self-determination and basic freedom as equal citizens. And in the years since then, the remnants of our ancient villages and churches have been turkified, left to fall into disrepair or destroyed completely, while Turkey called our grandparents liars, exaggerators, and aggressors. Speaking out about it got Hrant Dink killed just a couple of years ago. So how do we live together unless there is an acknowledgment of the truth and an apology to form a base of trust.
Hye, and today, when the Armenian Cathedrals, as in Aghtamar and Ani, are being ‘rebuilt’ by the Turks to become Turkish museums for the Turks’ tourism to florish…
This too, is proof of the inhumanity of a Turkey… Misleading the world to believe that these Armenian religious edifices have been ‘rebuilt’ – not resurrected to become again the Christian Armenian religious sites built centuries ago, and worthy of being ‘resurrected’ as their original builders, knew to build such well made structures which have now, years and years later, Turks misused, Turks removed Armenian symbols, Turks used as stables, storage and worse… but now, in the 21st century the Turks, in another of their ongoing/unending PLOYS even use to for their Muslim prayer sites.
Thus, when the Turk removes,destroys, even rebuilds to use as Turk museum, this reflects the mentality of the Turks… the Ottoman mentality prevails. For, in all the world there are the Seven Wonders of the World, and more such sites, built over the thousands of years, centuries ago, which in other lands are maintained in their origninal state… Too, passed on to the civilized world to know, to wonder and to enjoy all that was for us today, in the 21st century, to value, to wonder at, and understand that the ancients had much to offer humanity… All kept, maintained for all humanity, for all
posterity. But the Ottman mentality is still of the Asian mountain hordes… not any history, not any posterity, not any Armenian sites maintained for all the world to share.
Manooshag
Frederick wrote;
Turks are doing a fine job damaging their image without any help from the Armenians. If you have any doubts please read Hurriyet Daily News at the following link.
A Turkish man convicted of beating his wife while claiming it was a national Turkish dance. I don’t know which gives Turks a better image, beating their wives or having a barbaric dance.
One can you recommend to you to look at this link as well.
http://armenianweekly.com/2010/10/10/domestic-abuse/
“This man destroys the image of Armenian people” ???
No, this one and the other Turk all destroy the image of Humanity. We should not bring such problems down to this level. It is a crime of the lowest form. We all have to condemn such treatments of women by the men.
I agree with Resoman. Domestic abuse is a problem in Armenia too and Armenians are far from flawless.
This has nothing to do with the Genocide, Turkey’s continued denial, treatment of Armenia/Armenians and other Christians.
Fredrick,
Seriously? You’re trying to trash Turks with that a story on abuse? Have you not seen the death of the young woman by her husband and mother in Armenia? You might have tried pointing to the honor killings at least. But still, that’s just easy targeting.
Boyajian, thank you for calling me Jan janiges, it is an honer to be called that. I know it is more than just beeing polite, so thank you very much.
I have studied history and international relations alot, it is dirty and nasty at times but facsinating at the same time. I am facsinated by the Armenians, such an old culture, it has contributed so much to western and world civilisation. Also, I get angry of how history has treated the Armenians and how the turks are treated today by western leaders. I am in the EU and I say no to Turkey joining, but Armenia and Georga can join.
Fredrick, I think we agree, we just have two different ways of arguing :)
Jan, hramatsek (welcome to the table!). Armenians welcome you as our friend.
Random, you are missing the point. Turks are creating their bad image all by themselves in the world. Armenians are not doing it for them. This is the ancient bias against Armenians that led to the Genocide, “blame Armenians for everything that goes wrong”.
Jan, I agree we have a lot in common regarding the Armenians.
according to the turkish fellow, turks are powerful and armenians are weak and have no economy…..so are you saying you turks are the leader?–we are the victims of genocide caused by you! germany had to stand up and be counted after they mimicked your hitler “ataturk” and killed six million jews. the problem is turkey is not a leader but a spoilt, violent infant with a lot of guns—“democracy” by the sword is your option. grow up and admit to your atrocities against mankind!
I understood Frederick’s point when he suggested that link… He was merely pointing out that what Deniz was saying: blaming ARmenians for damaging TUrkish image (this is the more ridiculous accusation I have ever heard.. really Deniz??) he should look at how the Turks are damaging their own image by such actions.. This is how they keep prolonging matters.. they find ways to blame us.. and HOW IN THE HELL they get away with this I can never understand.. commiting a Genocide of this magnitude, getting away with it and on top of that blaming the victims.. WOW..
Deniz..you reminded me of few other Turks.. Robert and Murat who have the same mentality like you.. very open Anti-Armenianness mentality… just like you they come on these pages, spew their venum and disappear for a while and then pop up again.. is this how you people have dicussions?
May I ask where did you get your education? It is fascinating to me because you did mention that you did research.. please share what you have researched…
I have to be honest with you but after I read your comment.. i had to laugh.. your post was a laughing matter with such hatred coming out of it that I had to hold myself from getting really angry… after all that you have the audocity to tell the Genocide’s descendents that we don’t know, that we are weak, that we can’t forget, that we cna’t play nice and that we hate Turks and Azeris? obviously someone needs to sit with you and teach you what truely went on from late 1800s until now.. maybe we can open up your closed mind and eyes to something that you may have never researched…
Jan jan..i am absolutely blown away from your comments.. i got chills when i read them.. THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart for truly understanding our pain, our fear, our battle, our struggles and our history.. you are amazing.. As Boyajian jan said.. you are our friend…
It is about time our govt officials start harshly critizing Turkey.. They should have done that long time ago and for many other actions TUrkey took in the recent months…
I don’t know why our govt is sleeping in eshi akanjum but they need to wake up and start acting like a govt…enough is enough..
Going back to the original article, kudos to Nalbandian for publicly calling out the Turks on this anniversary of the so-called protocols. Perhaps we in the diaspora underestimated the Armenian leadership in this chess game of Turkish-Armenian diplomacy. Despite the Armenian diaspora’s misgivings, it appears that Turkey has officially lost the public relations battle on the opening of the border with Armenia. Not sure what this means for Armenian-Turkish relations going forward but Armenia is no longer negotiatiating from a position of weakness on this matter. Armenia 1, Turkey 0
Gayane,
You use the term “discussions” in your assault of Deniz, regarding both myself and Murat. Yet, you somehow forget to mention that Armenians have constantly refused to debate us in an open public forum, with full media coverage. Why do you think that is Gayane? Also, does this not make you a hypocrite? It sure does sound that way, wouldn’t you say.
Robert..
If you are that knowledgeable about discussions… please do share when Armenians constantly refused to debate… give examples and make sure you give specific examples where it clearly shows the constant refusal to debate…
I believe the hypocracy lies within the heart of the Turkish govt.. your govt Robert…well..lets see…
… Turkey dangles millions of dollars in front of those who are easily bought like the Ragnars of the world..hmmm..lets see…..Turkey will play buddy buddy with those bought outs but the minute they feel they are being threatened or get a feel those boughts outs turning on them…Turkey will panic like a scared cat… what do you call this ROBERT? i call it hiding behind the money because of having NO MORALS and NO OUNCE OF DECENCY….. it is easy to hind behind the blood money huh Robert?..Turkey without the wealth can’t stand on her own intelligence because Turkey obviously has no grounds to stand on as the ground she is built on is of the blood and the bones of all those who were brutally murdered.. that alone will be enough to shut Turkey up but hmmmm i guess she rather hide behind the money than start discussions….
oh and just so you know… Article 301, you are familiar with that right? won’t allow people like you to discuss about Genocide freely.. so that discussion is out of the window for the Turks…sooooooo if you can’t freely discuss this in your country so why are you assuming that ARmenians constantly refusing to discuss.. what in your home town.. THE MOON, is this how you handle matters? …ummm.. I wonder how much more light years needed to get through Roberts, Ragnars, Murats, Ahmets of the world…….
I do not know…
“… Armenian Foreign Minister Edward Nalbandian harshly criticizes official Ankara for failing to ratify the protocols and returning “to the language of preconditions that it had used before the beginning of the process.”..”
Well, I am mostly in agreement with him on this. There is a little technicality though. Turkish government doees NOT ratify protocols thay negotiated, the parliament does. One would think a man in his position would know better.
One may say it is a technicality since AKP has majority. Not when it comes to such a contentious issue, not when the nationalists are breathing down their necks, Azeri brothers etc..
One can blame AKP for not presenting the protocols for ratification and let the chips fall wherever they may. They at least would have kept their promise and commitment. Yes, but that would have killed, in the absence of any smallest positive step in the Karabag issue, any prospect of reconciliation for the forseable future. One may say it is better to freeze it than to kill it. Or not.
The other side of the coin. It was just as naive of the Turkish government to think and assume that Armenians would at leat make some parallel gestures to make it affordable for the Turkish parliament majority to ratify the protocols. It is not possible to tell for sure what calculations went into this and all we can do is speculate.
It was equally naive of the Armenian government to think that Karabag issue, the elephant in the room, can be conveniently ignored and there can be true normalization without it, or the Turkish government can simply “sell” Azeris out in preferance to “hateful” Armenians, which is surley the way majority of the Turks would have seen it. Well, it may not be perfect, but there is democracy in Turkey and people do vote.
Of course, maybe this was all known to the Armenian negotiators, and they simply did not think protocols had a realistic chance to begin with.
Murat: Generic terms, such as “official capital of a state” do not generally specify whether it is the executive or a legislative branch of a government in statements similar to Nalbandian’s. One would think a man of your level of anti-Armenian intellect would know better. One would also think that a man of your “intellect” knows that it’s not Karabag but Karabagh, if you chose to use the assigned Turkic name of the Armenian region, or Artsakh as it’s been known to Armenians for hundreds of years. Also, in whose room this elephant is? Turkey’s? Obviously not. Then it is still an enigma as to why Turks would bother themselves with an issue that has no connection to the Turkish-Armenian bilateral relations whatsoever. A convenient pretext to avoid establishing relations and opening the border, isn’t it? I think the Armenian side should start linking the establishment of Armenian-Turkish relations with Turkish withdrawal from Cyprus, even though the two cases are different: Artsakh is about self-determination, TRNC is a sheer occupation of a sovereign UN member-state.
Apres Mjm jan.. lav asetsir…
“Then it is still an enigma as to why Turks would bother themselves with an issue that has no connection to the Turkish-Armenian bilateral relations whatsoever.”
Very logical, except we are not talking about pure logic here, but politics.
“A convenient pretext to avoid establishing relations and opening the border, isn’t it?”
Why would they need a pretext and why would they go ahead with protocols at all if they had no intention of normalization?
“I think the Armenian side should start linking the establishment of Armenian-Turkish relations with Turkish withdrawal from Cyprus, ..”
Would have been perfectly normal if Greeks were Armenians.
“Artsakh is about self-determination”
So is TRNC. Besides, the last time I checked, over 60% of Cyprus was Greek and enjoying good life under EU auspices. Most importantly and more significantly though, TRNC agreed to a UN brokered plan, which Greeks rejected. Armenians are not even talking about the elephant in the room. This was a very poor anology indeed.
— “Very logical, except we are not talking about pure logic here, but politics.” —
Does this mean for Turks logic and politics are mutually exclusive notions? I should have thought so… Or, regardless one or the other, both of them only serve Turkish world-renowned barbarism in mutilating, slaughtering, roasting and burying people alive, stealing their lands and Turkifying their culture? If for Turks this is pure politics, you suffered fiasco with linking a self-determination issue between Artsakh and Azerbaijan with normalization of bilateral Turkish-Armenian relations. Because the world power centers condemned it as illogical and irrelevant.
— “Why would they need a pretext [to avoid establishing relations and opening the border] and why would they go ahead with protocols at all if they had no intention of normalization?” —
I thought you said above that you were “talking about politics here.” Don’t you know that some states tend to invent pretexts to avoid issues that don’t suit their foreign policy or national security agendas so that the blame could be put on some other state? As for protocols, Turks actually didn’t “go ahead” with them because they were killed as they approached the ratification stage. The initial stage, signing, might have had several reasons. One, unavoidable external pressure. Two, point-scoring with power centers in “look how good and friendly nation we, the Turks, are as we’re signing a document with Armenians (while still unrepentant for the crime of committing genocide against them and occupying their lands).” Three, tacit realization of the fact that without acknowledging the core issue in the Turkish-Armenian relations, read: acknowledgment of and reparations for genocide, the whole protocol process was dead-born from the outset. Fourth, a state that truly has an “intention of normalization” doesn’t stop in the middle of the road and cowardly renege.
— “Would have been perfectly normal if Greeks were Armenians.” —
Greeks, as we all know, are not Armenians or vice versa. But they suffered similar fate in the hands of your bloodthirsty grandfathers. Their lives were taken by the Turks in hundreds of thousands, their lands emptied of them, their cultural heritage desecrated. But that was not enough for Turks: on 20 July 1974 roughly half of Cyprus was invaded.
— “TRNC is [about self-determination]. Besides, the last time I checked, over 60% of Cyprus was Greek and enjoying good life under EU auspices. Most importantly and more significantly though, TRNC agreed to a UN brokered plan, which Greeks rejected. Armenians are not even talking about the elephant in the room. This was a very poor analogy indeed.” —
LOL. What a degree of cynicism in its Turkish form! Juxtaposing the self-determination struggle of Artsakh, an ancient Armenian land given to the Azeris by Stalin in the 1920s, with an explicit military invasion and continuous occupation by Turkey of a sovereign state of Cyprus. Since 1974, Turkey has defied a host of UN resolutions demanding the withdrawal of its occupation troops from the island. Cyprus is Greek in its entirety, as it has always been, and Turks are no-ones on the island to count what percentage of it is Greek and whether or not they enjoy “good” life. Greeks rejected the UN plan because they rightfully want to preserve their island as theirs in its entirety and not give legitimacy to an outright occupation of their homeland by Turks. Of course TRNC would agree to a UN-brokered plan from the Turkish perspective, after all it legitimizes the Turks’ presence on the island. In other words, it legitimizes yet another Turkish crime.
One day you will pay for all of them. Make no mistake…
“…Turkish world-renowned barbarism in mutilating, slaughtering, roasting and burying people alive, stealing their lands…”
Wow… do you have nightmares, insomnia, I mean this is prettty vicious stuff. You made me scared of myself frankly!
“But they suffered similar fate in the hands of your bloodthirsty grandfathers.”
Guess who sounds blood-thisty right now? My granfathers were ethnically cleansed from Crete by Greesk by the way on one side, and the other side massacred in Bitlis by Armenians. So let us keep them out of this.
“..Their lives were taken by the Turks in hundreds of thousands, their lands emptied of them, their cultural heritage desecrated. But that was not enough for Turks: on 20 July 1974 roughly half of Cyprus was invaded”‘
You should maybe look into the sequence of events that led to 74, and what was going on right before since 63. It is no big mystery.
In the light of your justification for the Armenian occupation and ethnic cleansing of a UN member nation, let me remind you that Cyprus was 100% Turkish not too long ago, taken from Venetians in 1570, who took it from Arabs, who took it from Romans and before that Frigians, Egyptians etc.. etc.. got it?
Most importantly, TRNC submitted to a UN plan, and Turkey had a legal obligation and authority to interfere in 74, a treaty signed by Greesk also.
We digress, but education is a good thing.
Absolutely Mjm .. apres…
Murat… I don’t condemn anyone taking human lives but you can’t come in here and tell us that we should not talk just because your grandparent’s lives were taken away…. are you that naive?. do you realize your ancestors tried to wipe out an entire nation.. all of Christianity.. Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians…???? Who would not in their right mind fight back and no doubt cause casualties in the enemy’s side.. Unfortunately, alot of Armenians who were slaughtered were women, children and elderly.. they could not fight back… because our strong men were killed in the most cowardly and sneaky Turkish way which opened an easy path for the slimeballs and scums of the earth to kill, and steal from innocent and defenseless population.. such cowards… so why are you surprised of your grandparents fate?. it is sad but you should also ask yourself.. did all those innocent Armenians deserve to die in such horrible ways? It is very clear as to why other countries think of Turkey as the sick man of Europe… no need for more explanations…
Robert.. any update on providing specific examples when Armenians constantly refused to debate?
Thanks
No, I don’t have nightmares, insomnia to make up vicious stuff characterizing your nation. I have memories of my grandparents and accounts of contemporaries who witnessed Turkish barbarity. I also finished reading “The Balkan Wars: Conquest, Revolution, and Retribution from the Ottoman Era to the 20th Century and Beyond” by Canadian author Andre Gerolymatos, full of references by British, German, Austrian diplomats and missionaries stationed in Ottoman empire and depicting Turkish humiliation of Christians in Asia Minor and the Balkans. You’ll find, as you correctly said, all the vicious stuff there, including the one that particularly struck me. Robert Walsh, the chaplain of the British Embassy in Constantinople, describes in his memoirs “A Residence in Constantinople”: “In the streets… young [Turkish] boys played by kicking the heads of [decapitated Greek] victims.” You shouldn’t be scared of yourself personally, but to come out clean and prove to the world that your originally savage nation has inched towards civility, you need to admit your crimes and repent. There is just no other way of sanctifying yourselves. Lies, distortion, manipulation with facts, and denial of crimes won’t work forever. They haven’t worked for the past decades and will never work in the future.
If I take it as truth that your grandfathers “were ethnically cleansed from Crete by Greeks on one side, and the other side massacred in Bitlis by Armenians,” I’d nonetheless try to distinguish, if I were you, which case was an inter-ethnic, inter-communal clash and which case represented a crime against humanity, read: a deliberate annihilation of a whole race by a government. Crete Greeks or Bitlis Armenians never represented any government on whose orders the whole nation of Turks was slaughtered. For them, Turks represented occupiers, who in the 16th century enslaved indigenous inhabitants of Asia Minor and the Balkans and their indignation represented national liberation from Ottoman Turkish yoke. Got it?
I know too well, believe me, the sequence of events that led to 1974 Turkey’s military invasion of Cyprus. Whatever their interpretation is, the events were DOMESTIC affair of a sovereign state, and the Turkish military operation was a classic case of an EXTERNAL occupation. It is no mystery not only for me, but for those UN member-states whose resolutions demanding the withdrawal of occupation troops from Cyprus Turkey has defied. If “Turkey had a legal obligation and authority to interfere in 1974”, why would the UN condemn it and demand withdrawal? Oh, by the way, did nomadic Turks who descended from Altay mountains and Mongolian steppes have a “legal obligation and authority” to invade and colonize sedentary inhabitants of Asia Minor, the Balkans, and the Middles East, too? Or “legal obligation and authority” is understood by Turks only in terms of scorched-earth destruction of nobler and more civilized nations?
Further, it appears that it’s a big mystery for you that ethnic cleansing of Armenians of Artsakh and the surrounding Armenian-populated areas was started by Azerbaijan. Did you know that? Everyone else does. Not a big mystery. But it just doesn’t sit well with your anti-Armenianism, right?
About “Cyprus being 100% Turkish,” did you invent this or someone else helped you? The first written attestation of Cyprus was made by an Assyrian king in 709 BC. Might you know where Turks have been at the time? The Ottomans gave timars (land grants) to soldiers under the condition that they and their families would stay in Cyprus. These soldiers became the nucleus of the island’s Turkish “community”. During the 17th century the Turkish population grew mostly by conversion of Christians. By 1872, the population of the island had risen to 144,000 comprising 40,000 Muslims and 104,000 Christians. By 1970, ethnic Turks represented only 18% of the total population of the island. Centuries of neglect and despotism by the Turks, the unrelenting poverty of most of the people, and the ever-present tax collectors fueled Greek Cypriot nationalism.
Education is indeed a good thing, but I wonder if it will ever save the Turks from digressing as they only learn what they are being taught by their distortionist state…
Gayane,
This is my second attempt (thanks to your editorial board’s policy of censorship and deletions). I am trying again. Several years ago, there was a national showing of a PBS documentary regarding the event of WWI. There had been an agreement for a 30 minute post-broadcast comentary discussion panel, consisting of three members from each side (Armenian and Turkish), to be held, I believe, in the Boston studio. Interestingly, just hours before the telecast, there were a tremendous amount of negative pressure via calls and open threats to PBS from Armenians to cancel and prevent the debate/discussion. Unfortunately, PBS gave in and canceled the debate [Don’t take my word for it. Check with PBS files for yourself]. Three years ago, a debate was requested with members of ANCA in New York, to be held there. They refused to even respond!
The whole point is that your diaspora will NEVER agree to an open public forum debate WITH full media coverage, because they know to do so, not only would they lose, but they also risk the chance for the truth to be exposed to the world (which is certainly NOT what they want, for obvious reasons). Still don’t believe me Gayane, then consider the very example right in front of you…the Editorial Board for this site! Why do they never censor and delete any of your posts, irregardless of how much hate spews from it (and also how inaccurate they can be), whereas 80% of my posts (as well as any other Turk, or even anyone with a differing viewpoint) are completely censored and then deleted, OR they are censored and then edited so as to only post 1/4 of what was written? I have written posts directly to the board asking them why. They always delete them. I’d be surprised if they actually allow this post to go through. The answer is so very obvious Gayane…they also can’t take any chances on the truth to come out, which could lead even one of you to begin to question everything that you’ve all been so carefully and meticulously taught (the only version of history that you all know). No one blames any of you for this. Just as the communist system was based on a foundation of lies, when the USSR started to run out of money and could no longer prevent the truth from coming through, the system began to collapse as more and more people learned that communism was one big lie, so too is what your diaspora has to do to prevent collapse!
MJM,
What could YOU possibly know about the Cyprus situation? believe me, you DO NOTwant to go head-to-head with me on this subject!!!
Also, as you say, did Tigar (the Armenian King) have a “legal obligation” to invade other territories not belonging to them? Man, think before you write, okay!
Robert, the idea that Armenians are afraid to debate is ridiculous. That PBS debate you are referring was canceled because Armenians complained (yes!) about the insult of treating this, our holocaust as ‘debatable’ when they never would suggest such a debate regarding the Jewish Halocaust. This is a made-up issue to deflect attention from the fact that Turkey still denies the truth.
Your are wrong, Robert, to make such a claim. We don’t debate because that suggests this is debatable. It isn’t.
LOOK WHO IS TALKING? LOL oh my GOD.. i am laughing my butt off..
Are you for real Robert???? why don’t you go head to head about the Armenian Genocide.. hmmm… wait.. ohhh yeahhh!!! You don’t jack about it do you??? because all you know is what you know from your blood thirsty govt and what they shoved in your brain.. sad….but Cyprus is something you should know because that land is another victory for your blood thirsty govt and I am sure they are so proud of it..Give it up.. the whole world knows what you have does not belong to your country.. not one inch of it…..
Oh by the way.. WHO THE HECK IS TIGAR? get your facts and history straight sir before you start using Armenian names which you don’t know how to spell……
So I would say YOU should think first before you write.. Mr. Anti-ARmenian…
By the way.. I am still waiting for the examples that I requested ROBERT….
Thank you
G
“Robert Walsh, the chaplain of the British Embassy in Constantinople, describes in his memoirs “A Residence in Constantinople”: “In the streets… young [Turkish] boys played by kicking the heads of [decapitated Greek] victims.”..”
Let’s see what context and facts are missing here. What is missing is the fact that this character was in “Konstantiniyye” around 1820s. That was the peak of the Greek war of independence. A very bloody affair, a protracted bloodbath that Ottomans lost at the end and as a result, large chunks of their country ethncially cleansed, a process that still continues by the way. Sureley there must have been bad feelings towards Rum of Konstantiniyye and even violence, as Fener (Greek Church based in Konstantiniyye) was known to be supporting the insurgency openly. Kicking heads in the streets of the capital? I doubt it. Oh yes, another detail. British were the main supporters of the Greek uprising, and there was much anti-Turkish propaganda in Europe in support of the Greeks at the time. All kinds of romantics flocked to Mora to help noble Greeks fight barbaric Turks. Should give you a clue about where the motives of an English diplomat may have liee.
“The first written attestation of Cyprus was made by an Assyrian king in 709 BC. Might you know where Turks have been at the time?”… Quelle alaka? So Greeks were NOT the original settlers? When I said look into the Cyprus events that led to 74, I did not mean going back 3K years! I should have known better.
Regardless, when the Turkish troops took control in Northern Cyprus, the only mass graves found were stuffed with Turkish bodies. I hope that warms your heart.
Bottom line: Over 60% of Cyprus is in Greek hands who enjoy peace and stability and prosperity. Greeks rejected a UN plan that Turks had accepted. End of this lesson.
Murat,
We say that the truth shall set you free. By this principle you are a slave to the falsehoods and denials you spout to show patriotism to a corrupt and fascist state in the throes of changing itself into another Islamic theocratic state. Your problem, not mine.
If you doubt that Armenians were subjected to barbarity of a kind under which the Seljuks and Persians suffered under the Mongols, then read. Read what Baskin Oran describes he read while a graduate student at Yale. Read the work of Turkish and ethnic Kurd scholars have added to the literature, e.g. Selim Deringil, Umit Ungor, Yektan Turkyilmaz, Fuat Dundar, Engin Ackarli, Taner Akcam, Fatma Gocek.
Read what the missionaries described – it is always the same – Armenian men quickly killed where they lived, the women and children and elderly brutalized and murdered in unspeakable ways by state actors. Read the memoir of Grigorus Balakian. I commend to you the memorable page where a field of Armenian women lay dead with bayonet and blunt trauma wounds, and of a Swiss nurse picking up a dead baby trying madly to bring it back to life.
Read the opinion of Ottomanist scholar Donald Quataert, who openly described the efforts of the Turk Ambassador to coerce him into changing his opinion that Genocide occurred. Read the basis for his opinion in the 2000 revision to his text.
Until you read, you are a slave. By choice.
Did I hear it right? “…the Greek war of independence. A very bloody affair, a protracted bloodbath that Ottomans lost at the end and as a result, large chunks of their country ethnically cleansed, a process that still continues by the way.” Murat, are you generally aware of the notion of decency? Whose country was ethnically cleansed? I have a difficulty hearing rubbish even if put my eyeglasses on… What level of nomadic cynicism you should have to call any chunk of the Balkans, Asia Minor, and the Middle East “a Turkish country”! Jesus Christ! Murat, what land Turks consider their historical homeland, may I ask? Where do you, as a newly-cooked ethnos, historically belong? Are they seriously teaching you at Tallat junior high that Cyprus, Greece, the Balkans, Armenia, Egypt, Syria, etc. were chunks of your country? Why woudn’t Greeks, a sedentary nation that’s considered the cradle of civilization, colonized by some Turks who appeared from nowhere, fight for their freedom? What you call “insurgency” is a classical national liberation movement. At least you yourself acknowledged it when you termed it “the Greek war of independence.” Why are you under the impression that they can invade and enslave indigenous nations at will and never face freedom fighting on the part of those nations? Impertinence encroaches when it is tolerated.
There are tons of witness accounts of German diplomats, consuls, and missionaries that testify to indescribable humiliation and fiendish tortures used by the Turks against native Christian inhabitants. German accounts should give you a clue that they are truthful because Germans were main Turkish allies and the main supporters of Turkish genocide of Armenians. Check any major library or archive in Germany, the UK, Russia, France, Italy, Greece, Austria, the US, etc. for accounts of the contemporaries. If you think Robert Walsh may have lied about what barbarous acts of roasting and burying people alive, raping, decapitating, and stabbing he had witnessed in Constantinople during mass murders of Greeks, check what your BFF Germans attested to in the same period or during 1915 while witnessing the annihilation of Armenians.
Greeks were original settlers of Cyprus, Greece proper, and all the Western part of modern-day Turkey at all times during their history. By going back 3K years, which you should have known better, I meant to say that Turks were nowhere to be seen throughout history to claim anything on Cyprus in 1974. You never belonged in where you are today, Murat. You know it and the world knows it. And there’s no need to try to justify anything that’s not rightfully yours. The origins of your nations are not in Asia Minor or the Balkans. These are stolen lands and it doesn’t essentially matter if discuss 1974 or years that led before to 1974, because more ancient, native inhabitants of these lands know that Turks were invaders back in the 16th century and they remained as such in the 21st century. Hence, rightful indignation and contempt against the Turks.
What you cynically call “taking control in Northern Cyprus” has been condemned by the UN as a classical case of military occupation. I don’t know what mass graves of Turks on Cyprus you’ re talking about, but even if they were, it was a result of a struggle against colonizers. Any freedom fighting is justified. Oh, and “end of lesson” my a**. Greeks rejected a UN plan that Turks had accepted because the plan served to anchor Turkish occupation of a land 100% of which historically belonged to Greek Cypriots and that was invaded in 1974. Greek rejection of such a plan is perfectly explainable. Turks are no-ones to count the lands of other peoples in percentage. They belong in Altay mountains and steppes of Mongolia. End of this lesson.
P.S. Robert, get help.
AMEN MJM jan…lav asetsir…
Robert not only needs help but he needs to check his history and recheck it over and over again because as I suspected, he uses information that is either incomplete or absolutely distorted…
By the way ROBERT.. my posts do get censored just like anyone elses.. and like i explained in my previous posts.. i am ok with that.. we are using a publicly run forum that have administrators and they have the right to censor any post that they feel should not be posted.. that is how it is.. if you don’t like it, leave… if you want to post, then post another and another.. until you learn find a way to comment properly.. so your whining and justification about “ohhh poor me, i always get censored.. this is outrageous.. ohh poor poor me…”.. is childish, and frankly my dear.. I don’t give a damn…
Let me say this in English and hopefully i wil be clear.. when I suggested to give me examples where Armenians constantly avoided having discussions with Turks, i meant the following;;
1. CONSISTANTLY..as you put it…. not one or two examples and on top of that examples that has nothing to do with what we were discussing.. OH.. and another thing.you do know the meaning of constistantly correct? one or two times does not show us that Armenians have been constantly refusing to discuss… duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
2. By discussions I was referring to HOW TURKEY will be paying back the Armenians and WHY THE TURKISH govt is soooo scared to face the truth and many other factors that deal with the ARmenians.. NO ONE said lets debate whether or not the Genocide happened..you know why? Just like Boyajian clearly stated ROBERT..Genocide DID HAPPEN.. there will be no discussions on that matter…and you trying to throw this stupid PBS example is not going to fly..i repeat.. do you have idea about Genocide?? maybe you do but you are acting dumb.. maybe you don’t.. maybe you do except the knowledge you have is the product of years of poisoneous injections your govt have been injecting in you…..sad.. just sad… no wonder you are clueless….so that said.. do you have examples where Armenians consistantly refused to have discussions with the Turks?
I repeat… who the heck is TIGAR?
P.S. Murat, you need to join your friend Robert … in the quest of getting professional help…or a true and accurate history lessons….
Thank you
Gayane
We are so passed recognition now it’s time for “Reparation”
Dear Jan Olsen, I just read your posts and your great interest for the Armenian people and our nation and it is an honor to have you here amidst ourselves. Thank you very much for the love that you are bestowing upon us and I feel warmth and happiness coming this from you.
Sincerely,
Seervart