Indeed, how now Armenians? When your government has deceived your cause, when the diaspora is converted into a community like the others, when your leaders have engaged in municipal work, collecting garbage, running schools, managing pseudo-warship houses, and competing with each other to be photographed with a congressman, indeed what now Armenians?
For two decades or more, diasporan leaders pretending to know have chased a wild goose in their pursuit of genocide recognition. They have failed miserably! Convinced that America will stand up for justice and believing the promises made by presidents, senators, and Congress’s Armenian Caucus, they have become a single issue disorganized organizations.
The hand dealt to us, at this moment in time, could not be more suitable. All kings—President Obama, Vice President Joe Biden, Secretary of State Clinton, Majority Leader Harry Reid, and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi—were all staunch supporters of the genocide resolution in Congress, yet the genocide issue is sidetracked at best, or else killed.
That is what American thinking dictates: Subjugate moral convictions to interests, forget a genocide perpetrated almost a century ago, and still claim guardianship of morality in the world. Alas, their policies do not say much about the moral guardianship of the United States. It is dead and I am sorry for that.
And yet, our diasporan leaders are hell-bent on pursuing the matter the same old way—chasing congressmen and senators, and posting pictures for show and tell.
Our leaders think there will be a suitable time for all supporters of the cause to pass the resolution. They delude themselves with that illusion to justify their existence.
What happened to the Armenian nation is a crime of maximal degree. It devastated us individually and collectively. We grieved the loss, we grieved the dead, we shouted in the desert for the world to hear, but received no echo. We grieved and grieved, until grief grew into depression, which controlled our minds and captivated our souls. It became the nation’s raison d’etre. We became fixated on the global recognition of the genocide as if our problems were one and only one.
In the immediate aftermath of the genocide, when our nation lived under gasoline-can shelters and off bread crumbs in the Arab land, our devastated and depressed leaders managed to inject antidotes to uplift the spirit of a nation. They worked hard to preserve the nation’s ethnic identity. Using self-pity as a vehicle, they told the ghettos to raise their heads for they were the sons of a great, civilized, and unique nation. They were Armenians. Yes, that was necessary and effective at the time, but that line of rhetoric created a single issue-oriented nation searching for identity. They found it in a vacuum in form of compatriotic societies: the Marash Compatriotic Society, Hajno Genjots Miyutiun, Compatriot Society of Van, that of Urfa, and a variety of others headed by the Cilician group.
These organizations were instrumental in keeping their ethnic identity glued to their villages, hamlets, and towns, even though most of them spoke Turkish, not Armenian. The individual became known by his village or place of birth: Fekertsi Avedis, Marashtsi Dickran, Vanetsi Vanig, Malatiatsi Artin, etc. Time and effort succeeded in preserving the Armenian language amongst the refugees and strengthened the compatriotic societies.
The big losers in this development were the political parties. The political party’s banner of Azad Angakh Haiastan (free, independent Armenia), though prominent in each social or political gathering, became a slogan and a symbol of inaction, instead of the battle cry for liberation. The leadership did not and could not develop meaningful policies to mobilize the nation politically. It all sounded hollow!
World War II came and brought with it a disaster on the Armenian nation, compounding the national wounds the First World War had inflicted upon us.
The diaspora was politically divided into two: The faction that supported the United States and the West did so hoping that they would see the demise of the Soviet Union and the return of the First Armenian Republic, which they had established. The other faction supported, even collaborated with, the Soviets for “love of Armenia.” They, in essence, became the fifth column undesirables in the Arab land that had hosted them.
In Iraq, one of the five founders of the Communist Party was an Armenian. I knew him and his family personally. People of the same conviction were instrumental in encouraging others to immigrate to Soviet Armenia. The war had claimed the lives of a half a million Armenians, not counting those who were exiled to Siberia by Stalin. This was another major trauma of devastating consequences to the Armenian nation.
Then the “Armenia lovers,” a group of bourgeoisie, believed that Soviet Armenia’s borders were what they were, despite the fact that the Soviets had conceded Armenia’s Kars and Ardahan to Turkey with the Kars Treaty of 1921. They thought we should be happy with what we got, that the most we could hope for were financial reparations from Turkey. These were the merchants, the professionals, or those who had been educated by a bunch of missionaries, who were there to preach the Bible. (Incidentally, they could not convert a single Muslim.) These people hold the same conviction now; they want financial reparation, ignoring the core issue of land demands.
In another group were the artisans, the poor, and the poorly educated country folk, who had battled the Turk, the Kurd, the Amirahs of Istanbul, and some members of the Armenian clergy. These were the people who told Serge Sarkisian—the Benedict Arnold of the Armenian nation who is determined to fix the Armeno-Turkish border as it is now, and hell-bent on giving away our gains in Artsakh (Karabagh)—to “get lost.”
This is a birds-eye view of what befell our nation, and it is fair to ask our leaders, indeed ourselves, how now Armenians?
Dr. Henry Astarjian is the author of The Struggle for Kirkuk. He has written several articles on the Armenian and Kurdish issues. On three occasions, he has spoken to the Kurdish Parliament in Exile (in Brussels), asserting Armenian rights according to the Sevres Treaty.
Dr. Henry Astarjian
Latest posts by Dr. Henry Astarjian (see all)
- Astarjian: A Quadruple Historic Bypass - February 2, 2015
- Astarjian: Hypocrisy or Ineptitude? - September 28, 2013
- Armeno-Kurdish Relations: Love Fest or Divorce Settlement Meetings? - August 19, 2012
Article makes some fair points; but as long as we’re going to be doling out historical blame, which group aligned with the Young Turks? A hero of which group advocated a racial brand of nationalism and then cut a deal with Hitler? Which party was most vocal in its opposition to the Karabakh movement? Which party was silent when the boss of ‘Benedict Arnold’ was cutting people down in the streets of Yerevan last March?
Dear Bedros Efendi:
I think that your comments refer to the ARF.
I have some questions for you:
Can you tell us what the Ramkavar, Hunchak, and others Armenian political parties (other than the ARF) were doing around the time of the Young Turk revolution (1908), the Adana massacres (1909), the pre-WW I period (1914), the Genocide period (1915-23), the Soviet period (1920 – 1991), the demise of the USSR (1980’s and early 1990’s), and the Karabagh demonstrations and war (1980’s and early 1990’s)?
Bedros, can you tell us the status of those other political parties in the Diaspora and Armenia today? Do they have lots of people joining them? Outreach programs? Demonstrations? Are their young people politically active in the US and Armenia? Can you refer us to some political events they hold?
As I’m not trying to get into a tit-for-tat I don’t know that your questions are necessarily fair. My main point is the ARF should look into its own house before calling the kettle black. Moreover, there an assumptive, condescending undertone embedded in the author’s approach. Supporting Armenia during the Soviet period was really such a terrible thing? Being Communist was so bad? Really, who would have been the party of workers and artisans as the author claims?
So no, I don’t see them doing too much of anything. At the same time they never took the fool-hearty position of being against Armenia- Soviet or independent republic. If we believe this discourse of nation we should always support our ‘brothers,’ which the two other parties have done more consistently.
All three parties are to be properly criticized for their opposition to the Karabakh movement and remaining silent when the people again stood up for their rights. There’s a perfectly good reason none of them have any power here in Yerevan.
To get back to the point I think you were trying to raise, yes, the ARF deserves credit for doing alot to strengthen the community, particularly in the 1930s and 1940s in the Middle East. But with that credit must come recognition of the many, many faults in their actions, a proper rebuke for their tendency to split the community (between Dashnaks and everyone else), a recognition of authoritarian tendencies (see Beirut, Tourian incident, and a whole host of others), and many other negatives. Again, I’m not advocating for another party, just calling a spade a spade when I see rhetoric.
What party stood by the corrupt Armenian government for ten years? What party and its followers stood by the status quo in Armenia after the assassination of our Prime Minister and other MPs in 1999 (don’t forget March 1)? The ARF has stood by the corrupt governments of Kocharyan and Sargsyan and has only recently “realized” it error. This truly brings into question the ARF’s motives. The ARF rightfully opposes the president’s present rapprochement with Turkey, but how can it be trusted after a decade of cooperation with the corrupt, illegal, and murderous government we have today?
—Likewise, articles like that of Dr. Astarjian do not progress our national interests. Armenians of all political backgrounds should move beyond the political divisions of the past. Yes, the ARF, Hnchaks, and Ramkavars all made mistakes. That was then. This is now. We all need to realize what is happening in the last corner of independent Armenia. We should all, as Armenians, speak with one voice against Turkish aggression, as well as against the murderous oligarchy running our country.
Dear Bedros Efendi or is it Hadji Bedors?and Jirair
I read with somewhat dismay and sorrow your comments as to Dr. Henry Astarjian¨s otherwise “rhetori” or just plain points of view.I admire your command of the English language,though I prefer the “saroyanesque” simple one,so as to make my points clear and comprehensive by the generl public.He-Astarjian- makes his points quite clear as well as regards our “unsuccessfulness” not to say impotency when dealing with big power diplomacy.That is a fact.Try hard as our respectfull political parties have so far done,nothing tangible as yet achieved.This I say with sadness.Though to make it an impartial comment-this of mine-I would add, that they could not, they cannot since they do not have support from our general public, which in the past they used to call”the silent majority”.When I mention general public I do not mean the very much advanced in age and the very young.Our public does have some backbone-so far not made use of- that is ,the middle aged and the ones just entering into real life-after studies,graduation and or apprenticed young.These form the present “Nirhogh Hsga-n” the slumbering giant yet to be mobilized…AND HERE NOW the response to dear Henry(he donated a full year of Armenian weekly to me a dozen or so years ago in N.J. at vartan church).Prior to which for a few years while living in Europe I was subsscribed to it though and a few other such weeklies.
“HOW NOW ARMENIANS” ??? Here goes:-While unlike others I do respect all our political parties with all their shortcomings .I mentioned that above.But NOW, my friend(s) we need to get the engine installed on a VEHICLE so to speak.Fpor that we need-mentioned above-The huge collectivities of our non-parisan, who alas have been dubbed as above and left “to drift away” from the Armenian Affairs arena.We need to mobilize these people .How? It is in detail format in my web page http://www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org which in brief now, those who are well advanced in their professions and can be formed into “Professional Colleagues Associations” PCA´s(5 on the scene already) the Health Medical, The Engineers & sciences,The Bar, The Sportivce and the jewellers(this latter should enlap the “furnishings and furnitues” and ten more other fields of profession defined in my web page then form into the Inter-Professional -their delages that is-see web P.-and then ask our political partgies to join in in order to have real PARTICIPATION AND REPRESENTATION in droves from all walks of life.Also one each from our spiritual denominations as delegates to a community country Central Council and on to the our Supreme Diaspora Council.
Main Objectiveis well described in my web P.´s Conf.2002 “paper” which was on the official site of RA´s Foreign Ministry for near 4 years…establish a”Natiomnal Investment Trust Fund” for without finances, nucleus of which ought to be registered in CH(Geneva) by our magnates each investing a huge amount ,together voer a billion dollars or so.Then ,the other mini magnates and on to the the ordinary Joe .That is close to a 100,000 Professionals.As regards to Genocide recognition, best I have heard so far was when I attended(my friend President of “Ancienne combattant francais Dórigin Armenian” Mr. Antoine BAGDIKIAN took me to 17 rue leu in Paris on April9(prior to Obam´s April 24 annual discourse re Armenians..
Professor Yves Ternon a stout defender of our cause ended his discourse by “Parlement a Parlement” which I interprete as -SEEK YOUR DEFENDERS IN SMALL , MIDDLE SIZE STATES,NOT ONLY FOR RECOGNITION OF OUR gENOCIDE BUT ALSO AS PARTNERS IN every possible way.
Regretfully the bog powers have always reneged on their promises to aid Armenia and Armenians and they will continue to do so.You go figure out why?
My political point of view is as follows as concerns our stance in this respect:-
If we pretend and/or aspire to be a socially formed -I like this better than, “civilized” people ..
then we should respect viewpoints (if beneficial,to our cause)come from any political party member of affilitate..I can gvie you a very good sample now:
When the Nakhijevan cemetery´s Khatchkars were being destroyed by azeri troops few years ago,there was this direct discussion b eing aired from Armenia´s H1 T.V.a heated one at that.This “tumblik” chap first in russian-which I don´t understand well, then in perfect Armenian near shouted”this minute,we should abandon the peace talks being conducted by the OSCE Minsk group,between us and azeris, till they immediately stop it and beg pardon..”No one listened to him.
After a few months in Yerevan I asked a friend who was that man?”why don´t you know? he is a Marxist”, (later I found out the pres. of said party).So what I retorted, let him be a <maoist ,what not,but when he was right and said something that is correct,all others should have followed suit and agreed to his suggestion.So is the Armenian, as yet not properly formed political understanding that it does not matter to what current political ideology one belongs to or non at all, but if what one says something that is in the affirmative for the benefit of the all and THE NATION,it should be adopted-accepted period.So much for that folks I am getting old and time to go to sleep….
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
P.S.Dear Henry I salute you for your work ,but please understand we are not as yet<SOCIALLY FORMED::::EXCEPTIONS GRANTED
also please..E.& O. excepted as I type very fast—–g.p
Dear Gaytzag:
Please type slower.
Good article, except for the last part. Too many people are making the assumption that Serj and his team, or even ankara for that matter had a say in the push for normalization. This was decided in Moscow, and somewhat in Brussels and Washington. If Serj had said no, they would have found someone else to say yes. This isn’t an excuse, it is the facts, small, resourceless, poor, nations can not dictate to the great powers.
AR, successive Armenian governments have tried to achieve normalization. The difference in this case is Erdogan is a more willing partner (with sufficient political capital in Turkey) to actually pull off a deal. Brussels, Moscow, and Washington had a hand, certainly, but the final decisions were made here (Yerevan) and in Ankara.
Hye, communism was good? When? For Armenians it meant security from the vile Turk, perhaps a time for resurrection of our people/survivors… but communism has failed – yet it’s mentality still is ingrained, i.e. Serge. We visited Haiastan still while still into communism, my husband and his buddy shared the one button for their jackets – the yerakoon. Haiastansis stopped them, just to shake their hands… And, when we were driven to sites, by bus (the bus was also stopping for the locals to ride) some members and the bus driver would be singing the ‘heghapoghagan’ songs – you
shall know all the ‘locals’ joyously sang these songs with us… So don’t knock the ARF… I was there and our coming to Haiastan meant much to these ‘locals’. One elderly gentleman, at a park, came and asked if we, from America, were teaching our children the Armenian language – he was so happy to know that we spoke Armenian at home. Further into the discussion, when I expressed concern about our brethern in Armenia he replied, and I never forgot this, Mezzee me hokeh, menk hos enk, menk mehr hoghen vran enk. In effect, we are on our own lands and we shall survive. And this was while Armenia was part of USSR… So hope springs eternal in the human heart! And so it is …
ARF over the years, and the ARF of today… as Theodore Roosevelt has written is so well in his
IN THE ARENA.. will work toward goals – will succeed, and at times not be able to succeed… but, being in the Arena, knows, in his heart, that he has been there, all the way, in the Arena, giving his all… Manooshag
Dear AR,
Thanks for your compliment.I shall do as you say and type slower.I agree small nations cannort dictate the big ones.However,if we do as “suggested”, we can muster up enough clout -why go far- to at the very least do as our own neighbours do, i.e. like, say great Turkey, that now and then even acts a bit on its own,ignoring or near ignoring their most important ally(remember ,when passage of U.S.troops was denied through their territory?) and yet 11 more such ..I have the Armenian Reporter´s one article, in which a compatriot mentioned each of those 11 more one by one.Indeed I do not think we are as yet that important to do that, but then some people conveniently forget that great Turkey is surrounded by not so very kindly disposed neighbours, like Greece, Syria, Bulgaria, even Iran and near all Arab other states….
Whereas,latter do sumpathize with Armenia-Armenians.Yes we do have some positively or kindly disposed nations around tiny Armenia.But again not enough clout(especially in Diaspora).
Like Dr Henry Astarjian has repeated several times over in his article that started this discussion-dialogue amongst us-not yet well organized….in Diaspora.It is in this aspect and respect that I have toiled hard, being an activist in Europe and now on paper or rather online trying to “suggest” that we do need to re-organizde the Diaspora(s) around one Supreme Council,with an important ” National Investment Trust Fund”.Hope you did take time out to enter into my Bulletins on web page of http://www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org
The No. 7 therein, deals with “A New Concept of Electoral System and Governance” which might be of some help in this regard,
Hama Haigagani Siro,
gaytzag palandjian
P.S. I do not wish to delve into present “imposed upon” as you describe ,protocols´ Fiasco,since this has yet to be ratified and ABOVE ALL ACCEPTED BY THE people, the Armenian people worldwide.Amended protocol SI-Yes, but not the one that was-is a fiasco.This does not mean that I am a hard-liner.Not at all, I have my own sugggestion for that too.which I shall expose next undefr a seperatge title.To which I wish to believe the Armenian weekly will give green light and publish,both here online and as well as in the weekly…let us wait,hope and see.
g.p
Manushak, I absolutely fail to see how anything you’ve written remotely counters, or even addresses, what I have stated (assuming you’re trying to take on my comment that there was nothing wrong with being a communist, or supporting Soviet Armenia). Wow, so people sang revolutionary songs with you. Sultan guze, jnjel mezi, zartir lao mernim kezi! And? Is that a reason to somehow not be critical of the ARF?
So a few people were happy; they’re happy, too, to know that I speak Armenian at home. Again, this relates tot he ARF how?
But, if you live here (as I do) and speak to people (and not just a handful of people at Vernisaj or around the Hraparak), you’ll find that respect for the ARF’s historical role. For fighting against the Ottomans. For creating a First Republic. You’ll also find a great deal of disdain- for opposing the Karabakh movement. For lobbying against Armenia because the ARF had a grudge against LTP. For going into Karabakh and refusing to help arm villagers unless they became Tashnagtsagans. For being so condescending and assuming they know better than the locals. For politicizing the mourning of those who gave their lives in defense of Karabakh.
Fine, the ARF is in the arena. But, the ARF will never succeed here. This is a nationalist country with socialistic tendencies- presumably the ARF would just be able to plug and play here. But, the ARF has been unable to understand how the discourse of politics is played out here. Nobody here (on a political level) gives a damn about the Diaspora. They only care about making money off of us. The ARF has been unable to understand that the current strand of nationalism in Armenia is the product of Soviet nationalities policies- not something ‘in the blood.’ Thus, a nationalism cultivated by and sold to a Diaspora constituency cannot and will not take foot in this country. Hence the Hanrapedagans are able to move along.
Romantic statements or reminiscences are all fine and good- unfortunately they do not substitute for analysis.
And, I’m not advocating a political platform, but the ARF (or at least its followers on this page) need to come to grips with the realities of Soviet Armenia and why people here still have such a nostalgia for it. Firstly, the USSR was a superpower. Being part of a superpower means not only security, but also prestige. Secondly, you cannot ignore the economic benefits it gave to a country that has few natural resources. Thirdly, it built everything here- universities (which were, according to a number of people, worse off now), governing structures, houses, plumbing, electrical grids, etc. Fourth, there was not only security of life- but also security of job, finances, your family’s future.
So, next time you hear someone in their forties or fifties recalling the ‘good ol days’, understand why. Also understand why they get sick of condescending Diaspora Armenians coming in and telling them ‘how much better off’ they are now.
Bedros Effendi, the fact of the matter is Ankara was forced to seek normal relations with Armenia as a result of the Russian-Georgian war in the summer of 2008. Had Georgia suceeded in its war against Russia landlocked Armenia would have been further isolated and become totally insignificant. Since Russia defeated the Western/Turkish/Israeli backed regime in Tbilisi Ankara has had to play to Moscow’s tune. What’s at stake for Ankara is its multi-billion dollar trade with Moscow not to mention its dependency on Russian energy. Armenia is simply attemtping to cash in on this unique opportunity.
Tackling a subject such as the performance of the diasporan leadership can lead one easily into oversimplifications and generalization. There is no doublt that the Genocide( and the lack of remorse from the perpetrator) has had a dominating effect on the community….both negative and positive.
While it is true that it has driven a “single issue” mentality amongst Armenians and their organizations,it has also had a unifying effect with succeeding generations. In an atmosphere where assimilation is a constant concern , it has brought people together. It has motivated education, scholarship and activism. Yes , we carry the heavy and sad burden of a horrific crime, but many Armenians, born two and three generations in the diaspora, have been inspired to carry on in the name of their grandparents and for future generations.
The political parties played a very important role in this country establishing the infrastructure
that has nutured our identity. Clearly, the most dominant of the diasporan political parties has been the ARF. In the 1930’s through the 1960’s, these group focused their efforts mostly inwardto establisha”community”. They helped to build churches, clubs,cultural organizations; all of which provided the succeeding generations with vehicle to build their connection to thier heritage.
One of the limitations with the parties in the diaspora, as I see it, is the impact of our institutional
schism.The ARF appeals to those historicallyaffiliated with it or as supporters(hamagirs). It is clearly
the strongest, but really how many people from the AGBUor the Diocese support the ARF and its
activities. Likewise you don’t see a lot of Prelacy affilated at Camp Nubar. Granted and thankfully there are many exceptions, but my point is that the institutionalization influences your participation.
This is especially tragic since the independence of Armenia and resulting expansion of the political parties. Whereas in the past, positions were driven by the 1933 division and the 1957 affiliation with the Cilician See,today the platforms now are more international and focused on global
Armenian issues. Look at the improvement in the ANCA over the last 20 years.It is an effective lobbying group with the traditional grass roots capabilityof the ARF. But are we all listening when the ARF or the AAA comes forward with programs or do we lineup with our traditional “side”.
In order for the political parties and advocacy groups to be effective in the diaspora on pan-Armenian issues, they need to connect with people and their needs. Likewise, the people need to make informed and open decisions.It’s a new day. The diaspora has a role to play(despite the reception from the protocol dialogue). We must forget our past tensions and support the issues and those who lead them. I respect the ARF for providing a vehicle for activist expression.
We have been living in a sandboxwith this split for the last 70 years. Aside from the ackwardness of being represented by two of everything(two bishops,two lobbyists, sometimes two public postions……. i.e. ARF activism on the protocols and AAA wait and see) the split has been mostly absorbed internally. Well those days are over. We need to subordinate to the whole community.
Reconcile with your brothers and sisters, educate yourself and be active!!!! And let us thank God that we have the opportunity to debate and act!!!!!
Avetis, so long as you want to fall into ‘common sense’ thinking you’ll continue to miss the larger picture. Given that Russia is resurgent and being reassertive in the region, if we follow your logic Turkey would be moving to strengthen its ties even more with Azerbaijan and with Georgia as well, in order to counter Russian influence- they would necessarily be anti-Armenian, therefore, as Armenia is basically under Russia’s thumb in a number of ways. In other words, your simple analysis fails to explain anything.
If we actually take a step back and look at the context of recent developments, being particularly cognizant of Ankara’s recent politics (domestically and internationally) we see something different. As a counter to rising nationalism championed by the CHP, Erdogan’s AK Partisi has been trying to (1) gain entry to Europe, and (2) become a more powerful country in the region. Thus, we see rapprochement with Syria, Turkey becoming involved in peace-keeping missions in Lebanon, and even taking diplomatic swipes at Israel. Cyprus is being resolved, and relations with Greece are at an all-time high, according to many. (3) Erdogan is the most serious mainstream Turkish politician when it comes to the Kurdish issue in Turkey. So, it is against this backdrop, that a political party with political capital is trying to normalize relations with Armenia.
To Avedis, Stepan and Bedros Efendi
In spanish we say “todos tenemos razon”,i.e., we all have something reazanable,to that effect…this is what Javier Solana would say…
The political spectrum -at this juncture of time-is hot in the Caucasus and surrounding countries.Yes even Iran,to say the least.All want to make the most of it for their nation/states. So why not Armenia.In this Bedros is right.However he also overlooks that if tio(uncle) Russia intervenes ,it is for its own benefit not for our beautifull eyes. I have lived more in Europe to know that Russia is foremost a European nation/state and it pursues above all its own.Like the Gerogian affair showed.But when it comes to Armenia(the present Independent RA)they would not care a bit more if great Turkey had its say in the region and own(billion dollar deals9 regional superiority crave ,etc.
I always like to bring samples in order to make a point. Here goes:- When a few yeasrs ago RA owed only 120 million dollars to uncle Russia, they did not think twice before taking over the factory(s)for non payment,in Armenia. I was very much affected and in one of my discourses in L.A.´s Horizon T.V said it out loud and clear..”would it not have been appropriate for Russia-as appreciation, for 200/250,000 Armenian soldiers dying near Berlin walls ,viz. WWII, for the “Patriotic WAR”) to forget about that debt and/or dedicate the factory to the veterans´s heirs -making it a shareholding concern?” -this amount just plain peanuts for Russia(resurgent now)? .Only one person called and told the T.V. program director in which I spoke near 3.5 years every 3-4 weeks-saying tell him(me that is) he should not order or dictate what Russia should do. I asked lady to call and tell him “the tape is there ,Gaytzag did not tell,dictate or order , He said(me i.e.)”Harmar cher lini…”The rmenian is like that always holding up,defending the Odar, unnecessarily, the powers(to be) …..
Same with the Anglo-Am side. In another discourse of mine, each lasted 10 minutes by the by I said “have you stopped to think what Huge CAPITAL,CASH MONEY, the second wave of Armenians(mainly from Middle East) brought to these shores.They came from their well established countries ,like Lebanon,Iran etc., -unlike the FIRST wave 100 yrs ago (shirtless) We brought in billions of dollars and the 80 -100 million dollars a year that uncle sam -after AAA and ARF beg for… allots to RA/Artsakh——-hardly the interest of that capital brought over by our compatriots to U.S. Canada,England,France shall I go on…One friend of mine now an ARF top guy -when I told this to him, he rightously added ,”gaytazg you forget the sweat we shed on these shores and taxes we paid TOO..”.You see, I am not advocating racism or Nationalism but we HAVE TO THINK “A LA EUROPENAN”, FIRST AND FOREMOST …..us,,OURSELVES, OUR PART OF THE DEAL…
We have not learnt that from turks,Persians and arabs,even though we have lived in those areas..even these peoiple think like the Euro -Americans..
As for what is happening there (in the Region) now ,we cannot but follow the line and nonetheless be ver ADAMANT IN OUR DEMAND FOR GENOCIDE RECOGNITION, for there lies the main issue and reparations -indeed-attached to it.I refrain to expose my thoughts as rgds NK Artsakh.I leave that to later discussions,when AT LEAST ONE CORRESPONDENING PERSON HERE, MERELY ADMITS THAT WHAT I write about re-organizing the Diaspor(s) opines affirmatively.Mind you I repeat I respect all our establishments-political parties.However, the 160 year old “Sahmanatrutyun” and other such are not in step with a Dynamic Diaspora that is there to be tackled to be mobilized around “Professional Colleagvues Associations”.Let the present ,mentione d go on with theirs, but in my thesis all are admitted in these PCA´s -i.e. plural membership O.K. but no political propaganda allowed in the Associations that are to get the Huge collectivities going and then derive from them -establish rather, b y them , the “National Investment Trust Fund” in Geneva CH.Just to throw some light on what latter would serve for….
To loan finances only through Central babk of Armenia to small,middle size trades, plants(factories) etc., AS AGAINST MORTGAGED property or wahtever.Unlike the “All Armenia Fund” this is an investment fund -the planned one -and will earn for investors some 2/3 percent interest and the monetary experts of the FUND-to be created by our 5-6 magnates,like I wrote above-previous post- will invest in its turn in important governments Bonds-securities only, also charge the borrowers some 2-3 % only not what is being charged now in RA , like….. 14%…
Yes, we should take over and do that.The Diaspora(s) by the by can be devided in 3.The very old one-there to stay, the 50 year old one(come from Mid-east-questionable? since once the Investment Fund is there, WE CAN THEN ORGANIZE A REAL EXODUS ,or repatriation to RA-Artsakh with big finances-see in my web page details-The Moscow -Russia community will supervise that.My concept of an organzied Diaspora with a Supreme Council with 5 departments, for I believe in delegating to each ,according Geographic, demographic and suitability stance…please enter and read details in http://www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org.In short, THE DIASPORA MUST RE-ORGANIZE!!!!
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag Palandjian( image?,you ask for) Shantagizoum
Let me remind you my brothers and sisters, that after turkey and azerbajian “invested” (bought) in armenia and when russia is weak or not looking, turkish tanks and military will “protect” its citezens and investments in armenia. the scenario that transpired in cyprus 1974 may repeat itself in armenia. i have been reading many articles and failed to see anyone point this little part of turkish history. in 1974 there were “some” turkish families living in northern cyprus and while the greeks were having there internal squables it was an impetus for the turks to invade with an army to protect its citezens from the greeks. who ever thinks the cyprus issue is resolving is mistaken. the turks are there to stay. i fear that as we sell our lands to odars and borders open we will be putting the nails in the coffen.
Gaytzag:
Your website is not working, did you type the wrong url address?
Gaytzag, I appreciate your attempt to find something reasonable and useful in everyone’s position. Know, however, that it is only clear political theory and program, with its incumbent epistemologies, that can ever bring about anything substantive. So, while I appreciate your intervention, I must ultimately disagree with it.
Arek, the Cyprus invasion happened because the Greeks in Nicosia broke a treaty by trying to unite with Greece (Enosis). While there has certainly been immigration, there were far more than a “few Turkish families” in northern Cyprus as of 1974. The situation is actually quite comparable to Karabakh.
Firstly I would like to apolagize ,again for my fst typing causing typographic errors..but the core of the my writ, I hope is comprehendible.
Next , to AR.In thius last post of my I don´t know how after http://www.ARMENIDAD-worldwide.org
a the next sentence´s (in) was attached to it ,thus making it unfuctionalbe…please try again.
Now in response to AREK´s post up above.You are DEAD RIGHT!!!!
Turks, according to my -may he rest in peace-from Erzeroum then work in Bolis-he always told us boys you don´t know the turk…When aggravated, or for no reason at all…their “KHERS” MEANING WRATH may flare up and God save people around them…
While we are here discussing issues that are being dealt with -well have it your way above above someone else´s post, not well planned or whatever re Protocols etc.,great Turkey may in any instant like AREK says …border or no border..invade Armenia.Comes to mind when dozen or so yrs ago Ecevit (premier of Turkey) boasted, nay declared “we should enter Nakhijevan”…when the Russian general Shaposhnikov retorted…”you just dare…”But this has undergone an immense change .No Russian such generals on the scene now.Mainly biznis is the objective of all states now and Russians as someone mentioned above do billions of biz with great Turkey..would they care if that scenario -like the Cyprus one occurred in , or through Nakhijevan, or right across from Arax river…
That is why, we must be very carefull both in Homeland and in Diaspora dealing with this “Hresh”.They are capable of anything..my other suggestion for solution of NK is such that would appease great Turkey..but I shall refrain from exposing it to the public now.It has been “suggested” to authorities in Yerevan,period. Tact ,is the requirement of the moment…
Compromise is good in any of its forms.Don´t be worried our Genocide Recognition issue is a National sacred one…but plan we must and get the Diaspora well re-organized and with a Huge National investment trust fund that a 100,000 strong colleagues associations members can invest in..
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian
The situation is actually quite comparable to Karabakh.
No this is not true. What has happened after the Turkish occupation is that the Turkish Cypriot population has left because the rule of Turkey has been without democracy for them at all. Instead, Turkey has brought population from the mainland to settle. What you can compare to is settlement and occupation. The Turkish Cypriot population has been brutally oppressed under Turkish rule and all democratic institutions were squashed. The intellectuals among this community have protested but sadly they are the ones who have left.
I know many people who have traveled to Northern Cyprus; I almost went myself but the times didn’t match up when I was in Turkey most recently. So, beyond following the news and reading voraciously, I have some more intimate knowledge of the situation. As I have stated elsewhere, Turkey has engaged in a fairly ambitious settlement program, and it subsidizes everything on the northern third of the island. But the majority, overwhelmingly, are native Cypriots. As it relates to the rule of international law, peace settlement issues, I fail to see at all how you have countered my claim.
Tell me, Bedros, which countries in the world have recognized the Turkish occupied Cyprus as a legitimate state? The people who still represent Turkish Cypriot population (not hand picked by Turkey) are even against occupation because it shut down all democratic institutions. how is that protecting them from a coup — that failed anyway? This coup attempt was against Makarios, not the Turkish Cypriots. The whole thing is flimsy based on false pretext.
Yes, the coup was against Makarios. The coup was also intended to formally unite Greece and Cyprus, which would have been disastrous for the Turkish Cypriots- just like Azeri-controlled Karabakh would have been disastrous for the native Armenian population. And what does it matter who’s recognized the TRNC? Again, I fail to see how you’ve addressed any of my points.
You all need to brush up on your Cypriot history. I’d recommend a quick wikipedia search. But to summarize, the right wing Junta who was in power in Greece imposed a coup on the government of Archbishop Makarios. The coup failed and within a short while the the Republic of Cyprus regained power. Unfortunately, the Turkish government used this as an excuse to invade Cyprus claiming the right wing Junta would harm Turkish Cypriots. Also, the peace treaty meant to give Cypriots their independence for England named Greece and Turkey as protectorate powers…thus Turkey argued it had the right to invade…this, however, does not justify why 30,000 Turkish troops have remained in northern Cyprus for over 30 years now.
The Junta in Cyprus was easily overthrown and power was restored to Cypriot authorities, thus the present day Turkish occupation is illegal. The occupation forced over 200,000 Cypriots (a good number of Cypriot Armenians too) out of their homes to the south of the island. Turkey filled their homes with Turks from Anatolia and the Balkans. Cyprus is not Karabakh. Every war and conflict is unique.
Thank you, Rober. That is more or less what I was saying, and probably overstepped if I ever said ‘just like Karabakh.’ The point is there are many parallels, so Armenians should watch their mouths before trying to place everything every Turk has ever done into ready-made narrative. That’s what Turks and Azeris do to us (i.e. equating so-called rebellions with Karabakh to explain a ‘Grand Armenia’ myth).
Thank you Rober. May I also add to Rober that the coup attempt had NO support in Greece either — thus this led to the downfall of the colonels in Greece as well. Furthermore, the Turkish Cypriots were not treated by the government of Cyprus the way the Armenians in Azerbaijian were! It is ridiculous to compare.
There is no way on earth even a coup against Makarios could have led to the things the Armenians have suffered in the areas of Azerbaijian – and certainly not “before the fact!”
Sorry, Bedros, that is not more or less what you were saying. There is no equation. One is not like the other.
The differences between Cyprus and Karabakh are great. Rather than using the billions of dollars being made off oil to better off those Azeris displaced by the conflict, Azerbaijian has spent most of its newfound wealth on its military while stuffing the rest into the pockets of government officials. That money could be used to build new homes for those displaced families. Instead, the corrupt Azeri government has treated its internally displaced population as second class citizens, limiting their ability to attain jobs and proper housing. Rather than helping its own population, Azeris are bent on a military solution to its territorial problems. As a result, the Azeri population is suffering.
This is direct contrast with Cyprus. After the 1974 invasion, ONE HALF of the Greek Cypriot population lost their property. Fortunately, as oil brings wealth to Azerbaijian, Cyprus was able to gain wealth via tourism. Rather then focusing on a military solution to their territorial woes, Cyprus invested not in its military, but on its population. Do to its progressive, population centered policies, Cyprus now is blessed with a Western European quality of life.
—Also, the two campaigns are not on equal footing. Around 1/3 of Cypriot land was lost to Turkey after the occupation as apposed to only 1/8 of Azeri territory lost. Also, 1/2 of the Cyprtiot population was displaced, much more than the Azeri population living in and around Karabakh. Also, Turks in Cyprus really had no territorial claims to the island, whereas Armenia has a legitimate argument. Karabakh was securely under Armenian control before joining the Soviet Union.
While on the topic of Cyprus, maybe it is appropriate to mention a few things. It is good to see that some here are actually aware of the salient facts.
Conditions for a “legal” Turkish intervetnion actually existed since the 1963 pogroms of Turks and Greek overturn of the constitution by removing the Turkish Cypriots from the political process. Turkish Cypriots were herded into small enclaves and were kept from starving by UN aid. It was the American threats (famous Johnson letter) that kept Turks from a military intervention then. Massacres of Turkish Cypriots (look up Dr. Kucuk) by ultra-nationalist Greek militia was left unanswered and unpunished.
So statements like 74 coup was short lived and everything was going back to normal if it were not for the Turks taking advantage of the situation are simply wrong.
Coup was short lived because of the Turkish military action. Not only Cyprus but Greece also got rid of their junta, and this is the great irony, because of the Turkish military.
Secondly, Turkish military action became urgent becasue of the attrocities that were being committed. UK and Europeans were trying to employ the same process that cost so many lives in Bosnia two decades later. That is, they were happy to get dimplomats around a table and engage in endless negotiations while the mass graves were being filled with Turkish Cypriots. Turks were in a position to do something about it and they did. The only reason why a quick solution was not reached is becasue Greeks tried to internationalize the problem and get USA, UN and EU to do what they failed to accomplish by force (not too different than Armenians actually). As we can see, they have been rather successful. A UN plan was soundly defeated by Greeks, secure in their new EU Greeks-only membeship.
Why there are so many Turkish troops in Cyprus today, I have no idea. Almost none are needed. It would help of course if Greeks did not arm themselves to a degree that they now pose a legitimate military threat to Turkey, 70 miles away. If I were to think like a nationalist, I would say, if only Greek Cypriots were stupid enough to start another military adventure…
In any case, there are certainly parallels with Karabag, but I do not think it is the kind Armenian nationalists would like to highlight.
Yes, Janine, actually it was. Again, please show how you’ve actually countered in any systematic fashion even one of my statements beyond merely insisting upon it?
And, Murat, the parallels are there. Economic discrimination against Armenians in Karabakh was fairly apparent throughout the Soviet period, massacres had taken place, and the fascist (there is no other term for it) Elcibey declared there would be no more Armenians left in Karabakh- a direct promise of ethnic cleansing. So, a local movement started which was later hooked up to the democratic movement in the Republic of Armenia. At the end of the day many dynamics are different, but they remain very similar. Armenia may not have had a legal right to enter Karabakh, but that really matters little. Minorities were under threat from the right-wing, people stepped in to make sure that wouldn’t happen.
Bedros Effendi,
In response to your reply to my comment: you seem to have a problem with rational. Try to picture what it would mean for a nation with a large energy dependent economy when its main source of energy is cut off… It would mean economic collapse. Turkey gets more than half of its energy via Russia. During the Russian-Georgian war Russian energy supplies going to Turkey came to a stop, causing widespread panic amongst officials in Ankara. By defeating the Western/Turkish/Israeli backed regime in Tbilisi Moscow has effectively driven out foreign meddling from within the Caucasus. Since Moscow now controls all the political levers in the Caucasus, since Moscow is firmly entrenched in Armenia, since Moscow wants to sell energy to Turkey and elsewhere, since Georgia and the Black Sea region are now considered to be unstable for the foreseeable future – Armenia was more-or-less presented by Moscow to Turkey as the only alternative route to bring Central Asian energy to Turkey and beyond. This simple yet harsh realization is what forced Ankara to sit down at the table with Armenia in the immediate aftermath of the Russian-Georgian war. You may want to believe in your neo-Ottoman dreams, however, just realize that Armenia today stands poised to become a regional trade hub as a result of recent geopolitical changes in the region.
Bedros,
Just curious as to why you were going to turkey or northern cyprus? Is azerbaijan next on your travels?
Actually, Avetis, if you’ve notice throughout all my posting rationale and rationality form the cornerstones of my arguments. Hence my rejection of the fantasy land most Diaspora Armenians inhabit. I also reject conspiracy theories which, unfortunately, plague the contours of Armenian political discourse both in the Republic of Armenia and the Diaspora.
Most of Turkey’s pipelines come either from the South (via Iraq) or the east (via Georgia/Azerbaijan and Iran). I can’t find one that actually comes down through Georgia into Turkey, but I admit I may be wrong. Thus your claim that Turkey is dependent on Russia for energy rings hollow.
I do see some of the rationale to your argument, and perhaps there is more to it than I see (basically if Armenia becomes the conduit, Russia can better control the westward flow of oil). I think we both remain hopeful that Armenia will become a regional hub because of these political developments.
At the same time, you need to see the Protocols in the context of Turkey’s new foreign policy, which I believe provides a more accurate lens for viewing these development.
And, accusing me of having ‘neo-Ottomanist’ dreams is simply unfair and one step below character assassination (especially in a forum like this).
Before I forget, the only energy line that goes from Russia to Turkey is Blue Stream (natural gas), and that was not at all incumbent on Georgia.
Bedros Efendi,
There is nothing in the “protocols” that supplement or support Ankara’s traditional foreign policy formulations.
The fact of the matter is, Turkey shut down its border with Armenia because of Armenian control over Artsakh. No where in the protocols does it mention anything about Armenian forces pulling back from Artsakh. After fifteen years of saying it will not open the border as long as Armenia controls Artsakh, Ankara has suddenly changed its mind. Realize that Ankara changed its mind after the Russian victory in Georgia in 2008 and the cold realization that its economy and political establishment are vulnerable.
The recognition of borders and the setting up of a historical commission are vague, subjective, not tangible – unlike Ankara opening of borders with Armenia despite Armenian control in Artsakh, which is real/tangible. People who study history and politics know well that official documents are essentially worthless in realpolitik. Official documents are formalities and nothing more. The only way Turkey will pay its overdue reparations and return Western Armenia is when Turkey is defeated on the battlefield. There is no other way. Instead of wasting our limited resources on “genocide recognition” we should be engaging in a pan-national effort to strengthen our fledgling republic. Turkey will sooner or later fall apart. And when Ankara does eventually fall, we as a nation-state must be powerful enough, economically secure enough, to exploit it.
Turkey gets most of its energy from Russia, not Iraq. Ankara’s dependency on Russian trade and energy is growing year-by-year. Now, with Georgia off limits to Russia for the foreseeable future and the future of the Black Sea unpredictable due to the serious dispute with NATO and the Ukraine over Crimea, Armenia has become the main focus for Moscow. Armenia is Russia’s southern gate and with it can control the strategic Caucasus. Armenia is where Russia checks Turkish, NATO/American, Iranian and Islamic expansions – as it has been doing for the past two hundred years.
In order for this agenda to be finalized the next phase will attempt to bring Azerbaijan and Armenia closer, perhaps we may even see another war in Georgia. Nonetheless, this will be the most difficult phase for sure. And this is where I’m somewhat worried. How much concessions will Armenia be forced to make regarding Artsakh? Honestly, as far as I’m concerned, as long as we keep Artsakh proper along with the Karvajar and Berdzor regions, and secure a real lasting peace treaty, I would support the plan. Based on my assessment of the political climate in the Kremlin, as well as how well Russia today is entrenched in Armenia, Artsakh will not be undermined – for it is one of the important levers Moscow has over the region’s powerful Turkic/Islamic presence.
Let’s just realize that Armenia/Armenians are big only in our minds. From an international perspective, a tiny, re-sourceless, impoverished, landlocked nation surrounded by enemies in one of the most complicated and often hostile regions of the world – does not have much lever on the negotiating table. Let’s just be thankful that we have a regional superpower like Russia looking over us – even if it is for their national interests…
Avetis, I appreciate your taking the time to articulate a position, but unfortunately you keep on missing the main point- over the last 5+ years Ankara has completely re-oriented their policy goals. Closing the border with Armenia in 1992-3 had nothing to do with the current authorities. Moreover Turkey has come to see themselves, more and more, as a north-center hub rather than an east-west one for the flow of commerce.
Again, the only energy link between Turkey and Russia is Blue Stream, which goes under the Black Sea- not through Georgia. This one fact complicates your analysis.
Bedros Efendi,
Like I said previously, you have a problem with rational. The “South Stream” pipeline is a gas supply route. However, that does not take into account Russian tankers that deliver oil to Turkey. Nevertheless, Russia is the largest supplier of energy to Turkey. Moreover, pipelines that brought Caspian Sea region oil and gas to Turkey via Georgia and Azerbaijan, as well as the lesser known but just as significant rail line that traversed Azerbaijan, Georgia and Turkey, are now disrupted as a result of the Russian-Georgian war. Once again, let me reiterate, since you are having difficulty; with Georgia’s future unpredictable as a result of its dispute with Russia, with the Black Sea region unpredictable as a result of Russia’s dispute with Ukraine and NATO, Armenia has been thrusted onto center stage as the only stable platform from which Russia can engage Turkey and beyond with its energy trade.
I for one, welcome Dr. Astarjian back to the pages of The Armenian Weekly, fondly recalling that he appeared in this publications years ago. I looked forward to his column with anticipation. His commentary was never dull, frequently explicit, and always informative. His opinions are strong and frequently controversial but that just adds to his magnetism. He succeeds in eliciting lively dialogue from his readers, giving them a platform for an exchange of opinions. Welcome back, Doctor. I appreciate the courage the editorial staff has shown by having you return to the pages of The Armenian Weekly.
BAK
This is addresed to Bedros Efendi(or is it Haji Bedros)I very much like to know if it is the latter..but never mind that.
My belated question posed to him now is the following.You speak of and I quote”clar political theory programmes,plus “Epistemologies”.This last one I cannot make heads or tails of.Besides I am at present somehwere in a remote village in Spain and not access to mu library and dictionary to look that up…
I suspect like someone here also mentions you are not rational…
As to regional politics(Caucasus) when I was in Yerevan last summer and this conference was on at the Congress hotel organized by the French Ambassado,with participation of Kazimirof,General Seyranian opening the session,though he lft early..there were participants from Iran, Turkey, Russia,Gerogia(most numerous this one 5/6).Latter ,all of them were putting accednt on 2008 August few days war in Abkhazia-S.Ossetia ,when Russians entered and put an end to Georgian pres. ambitions etc.,
No on I repeat intervened to make a point to the Georgians.I did,thus:”How about you putting so much pressure on our brothers and sisters in Javakheti”‘ which caught him by surprise..and he stumbled for words, ending to the effect gthat this will be redressed, etc.,.Later I asked Arpi Vartanian AAA rep.in RA, “How was my remarks..” she nodded smilingly..
You see, I am not in any way trying to presume-assume.But armenians´´ mine included sometimes..2Hayun Khelk Oush gouk” .There was another of my uttering the second day -end of conf.When I reminded all, “it is rather strange that this conf. in Yerevan Armenia, no mentione is made of latter and indeed its Diaspora”…
Can you believe that? they come and enjoy their stay, air their wishes or statements whatever -by the by this retired U.S.Air force officer and an Eglishman who a couple times was the moderator…
Latter did not mention anything about Armens…go figure that out.As though Armenia was not to be there..Later on a ” Badmaban” started belatedly to talk about one does n ot know about what, just political talk without any “concrete” theory..as Bedros points out..
What? we don´t have enough gutts to stand up and defend our rights(Javakheti et al?)No, again no I am not a person that wishes to be on the forefront not at all ,but when it comes to defending our rights,then indeed, I jump to the forefront.
One last input, rather insight be this hiumble servant of the Arfmen people.”our Khelk” did not instantaneously grab the best occasion when above war was on and helped our brethren in Javakhk to then, right then stand up-with aid from RA and declare that Javakhk ..Akhaltikh, Akhalkala have always been Armenian populated and we also should demad Autonomy..mind you not seperation from Georgia .then by and by push to that end, when the time is ripe..again
“Hayiun Kheke ousha guka”.
I shall later describe next post that I admired the only Armenian In RA when the “Khatchkars” were being destroyed by azeri troops in Nakhijevan…No one listened to him.I shall write it now.When this discussion was being aired-direct-from Armenian H1 t.v. then, he near shouted”This minute we should stop the peace talks till the Azeris stop it, beg pardon then through OSCE Minsk group´s intervention re-strt the peace negotiations….”This chap turned out tobe-I found out on my next tripto Yerevan-when I asked a friend there who was that man, he said”He is a marxist,now the pres. of that political party”.I retorted “so what”? when he was dead right, why should we care about his ideology.So is -unfortunately the Armenian mindset-they put ideologiacl beliefs in front of the National one.So much for now …
best to all and
Hama Haigagani SIRO,
gaytzag palandjian