Bedrosyan: Searching for Lost Armenian Churches and Schools in Turkey

(Armenian Weekly)—On July 21, the U.S. House Foreign Affairs Committee overwhelmingly adopted the Berman-Cicilline Amendment based upon the Return of Churches resolution spearheaded by Representatives Ed Royce and Howard Berman, with a vote of 43 to 1, calling on Turkey to return stolen Armenian and other Christian churches, and to end the repression of its Christian minorities.

Armenian churches in Turkey before 1915

Where are these lost or stolen Armenian churches in Turkey? How many were there before 1915, the turning point in the Armenians’ world, when they were uprooted and wiped out from their homeland of more than 3,000 years? How many churches are there now? Considering that every Armenian community invariably strove to build a school beside its church, how many Armenian schools were there in Turkey before 1915, and how many are there now? How many Armenian churches and schools are left standing now in Turkey is the easier part of the issue: There are only 34 churches and 18 schools left in Turkey today, mostly in Istanbul, with about less than 3,000 students in these schools. The challenging and frustrating issue is how many were there in the past.

Recent research pegs the number of Armenian churches in Turkey before 1915 at around 2,300. The number of schools before 1915 is estimated at nearly 700, with 82,000 students. These numbers are only for churches and schools under the jurisdiction of the Istanbul Armenian Patriarchate and the Apostolic Church, and therefore do not include the numerous churches and schools belonging to the Protestant and Catholic Armenian parishes. The American colleges and missionary schools, mostly attended by Armenian youth, are also excluded from these numbers. The number of Armenian students attending Turkish schools or small schools at homes in the villages are unknown and not included. Finally, these numbers do not include the churches and schools in Kars and Ardahan provinces, which were not part of Turkey until 1920, and were part of Russia since 1878.

Armenian schools in Turkey before 1915

The two maps show the wide distribution of Armenian churches and schools in Turkey before 1915. The two lists for the Armenian churches and schools are by no means complete, but should be regarded as a preliminary study that can serve as foundation for further research. The place names are based on the old Ottoman administrative system, instead of that of modern Turkey. They are ably assembled by Zakarya Mildanoglu, from various sources such as the Ottoman Armenian National Council Annual reports, Echmiadzin Journal, Vienna Mkhitarists, and studies by Teotig, Kevorkian, and Nishanyan.

Lost Churches

Adana: Center and villages, Yureghir, Ceyhan, Tarsus, Silifke, Yumurtalik, Dortyol, Iskenderun, 25 churches

Amasya: Vezirkopru, Mecitozu, Merzifon, Havza, Gumushacikoy, Ladik, 15 churches

Ankara: Center, Haymana, Sincan, 5 churches

Antakya: Center, Samandagh, 7 churches

Antep: Center, Nizip, Halfeti, 4 churches

Arapkir (Malatya): Arapkir and Kemaliye villages, 19 churches

Arganimadeni (Elazig): Erganis, Siverek, Bulanik, Kahta, 10 churches

Armash (Akmeshe): 2 churches

Artvin: Center and villages, 11 churches

Balikesir: Balikesir, Mustafakemalpasha, Biga, Bandirma, 6 churches

Bayburt: Bayburt center and villages, 34 churches

Beshiri (Diyarbakir): Beshiri and villages, 14 churches

Bilecik (Bursa): Golpazar, 4 churches

Bingol (Genc): Center and villages, 11 churches

Bitlis: Center and villages, 30 churches

Bitlis: Tatvan, Ahlat, Mutki, Hizan, 66 churches

Bolu: Duzce, Akyazi, 5 churches

Bursa: Center, Orhangazi, 11 churches

Charsancak ( Tunceli): Mazgirt, pertek, Pulumur, Hozat, and villages, 93 churches

Chemishgezek (Tunceli): 20 churches

Chungush (Diyarbakir): Chungush center and villages, 2 churches

Dersim: Hozat, Pertek, 28 churches

Divrigi (Sivas) Center and villages, 25 churches

Diyadin (Erzurum): Diyadin and villages, 4 churches

Diyarbakir: Center and villages, 11 churches

Edirne: Center and villages, 4 churches

Egin (Erzincan): Kemaliye, Ilic, and villages, 17 churches

Egin: 3 churches

Eleshkirt (Erzurum): Eleshkirt and villages, 6 churches

Ergani: Ergani and villages, 11 churches

Erzincan: Erzincan center and villages, 52 churches

Erzurum: Center, Aziziye, Yakutiye, Ashkale, Narman, Ispir, Oltu, Shenkaya, Horasan, Pazaryolu, and villages, 65 churches

Giresun: Tirebolu, 1 church

Gumushane: Center, 4 churches

Gurun (Sivas): Center and villages, 5 churches

Harput (Elazig): Harput center and villages, Karakochan, Palu, Keban, 67 churches

Hinis (Erzurum): Hinis and villages, 19 churches

Hoshap: Hoshap and villages, 14 churches

Istanbul: European/Trachean region, 36 churches; Asian/Anatolian region, 8 churches; total 44 churches

Izmir: Center and villages, Manisa, Turgutlu, Akhisar, Bergama, Nazilli, Odemish, 23 churches

Izmit: Gebze, Kocaeli, Sakarya, Kandira, Geyve, Karamursel, 50 churches

Kastamonu: Tashkopru, Boyabat, Inebolu, 7 churches

Kayseri: Center and villages, Nigde, Aksaray, Bor, Nevshehir, Tomarza, Develi, Bunyan, Talas, 57 churches

Kemah (Erzincan): Kemah and villages, 14 churches

Kighi (Bingol): Kighi and villages, 58 churches

Konya: Center, Bor, Burdur, Nevshehir, 7 churches

Kutahya: Center, Tavshanli, 7 churches

Lice: Lice and villages, 19 churches

Mardin: Center and villages, 3 churches

Mush: Center and villages, Batman, Malazgirt, Bulanik, Varto, Hizan, 148 churches

Ordu: Karaduz, Ulubey, 3 churches

Palu (Elazig): Palu center, Kovancilar, Karakochan, and villages, 44 churches

Pasinler (Erzurum): Pasinler and villages, 4 churches

Pulumur (Tunceli): Pulumur and villages, 6 churches

Rize: Yolusti, 1 church

Samsun (Canik): Center and villages, 43 churches

Samsun: Ordu, 1 church

Shebin karahisar: Shebinkaya center, Giresun, and part of Sivas, 32 churches

Silvan (Diyarbakir): Silvan and villages, 34 churches

Sivas: Center and villages, Hafik, Zara, Ulash, Yildizeli, Sariz, Bunyan/Ekrek, Gemerek, 110 churches

Tercan (Erzincan): Erzincan and Tercan villages, 33 churches

Tokat: Center and villages, 32 churches

Trabzon: Center and villages, Of, Machka, Surmene, Akchaabat, Fatsa, Yorma, Arakli, 89 churches

Urfa: Center and villages, Birecik, Siverek, Suruch, Hikvan, Harran, Bozova, Halfeti, 17 churches

Van: Center and villages, Edremit, Gurpinar, Edremit, ozalp, Ercish, Timar, muradiye, Tatvan, Bashkale, Gevash, Bahchesaray, Chatak 322 churches

Yozgat: Center and villages, Bogazliyan, Sarikaya, Cayiralan, Sorgun, Shefaatli, and villages, 51 churches

Yusufeli (Artvin): Center and villages 4 churches

Zeytun (Marash): Center and villages 14 churches

 

Lost Schools

Adana: 25 schools, 1,947 boys, 808 girls, 2755 students, 40 male, 29 female, 69 teachers

Akhtamar: 32 schools, 1,106 boys, 132 girls, 1238 students, 36 male teachers

Amasya-Merzifon: 9 schools, 1,524 boys, 814 girls, 2,338 students, 54 teachers

Ankara: 7 schools, 895 boys,  395 girls, 1,290 students, 20 male, 9 female, 29 teachers

Antakya; 10 schools, 440 boys, 47 girls, 487 students, 10 male teachers

Antep: 9 schools, 898 boys, 798 girls, 1606 students, 31 male, 27 female, 58 teachers

Arapkir: 18 schools, 713 boys, 223 girls, 936 students, 23 male, 2 female, 25 teachers

Armash: 2 schools, 190 boys, 110 girls, 300 students, 5 male, 1 female, 6 teachers

Bandirma: 8 schools, 700 boys, 644 girls, 1,344 students, 22 male, 13 female, 35 teachers

Bayburt: 9 schools, 645 boys, 199 girls, 844 students, 27 male, 5 female, 32 teachers

Beyazit: 6 schools, 338 boys, 54 girls, 392 students, 11 male, 2 female, 13 teachers

Bilecik: 10 schools, 1,120 boys, 143 girls, 1,263 students, 18 male, 3 female, 21 teachers

Bitlis; 12 schools, 571 boys, 63 girls, 634 students, 20 male teachers

Bursa: 16 schools, 1345 boys, 733 girls, 2078 students, 34 male, 20 female, 54 teachers

Charsancak: 12 schools, 617 boys, 189 girls, 806 students, 16 male, 2 female, 18 teachers

Chemishgezek: 12 schools, 456 boys, 272 girls, 728 students, 14 male, 1 female, 15 teachers

Cyprus: 3 schools, 63 boys, 37 girls, 100 students, 8 male, 1 female, 9 teachers

Darende: 2 schools, 260 boys, 70 girls, 330 students, 4 male, 1 female, 5 teachers

Divrigi: 10 schools, 757 boys, 100 girls, 857 students, 18 male, 2 female, 20 teachers

Diyarbakir: 4 schools, 660 boys, 324 girls, 1014 students, 18 male, 9 female, 27 teachers

Egin: 4 schools, 541 boys, 215 girls, 756 students, 13 male, 9 female, 22 teachers

Erzincan: 22 schools, 1389 boys, 475 girls, 1864 students, 54 male, 9 female, 63 teachers

Erzurum: 12 schools, 485 boys, 10 girls, 495 students, 12 male teachers

Erzurum: 27 schools, 1,956 boys, 1,178 girls, 3134 students, 44 male, 41 female, 85 teachers

Gurun: 12 schools, 736 boys, 78 girls, 814 students, 18 male, 2 female, 20 teachers

Harput: 27 schools, 2,058 boys, 496 girls, 2,554 students, 49 male, 9 female, 58 teachers

Hinis: 8 schools, 352 boys, 15 girls, 367 students, 11 male, 1 female, 12 teachers

Ispir (artvin): 3 schools, 80 boys, 3 male teachers

Istanbul: 40 schools, 3,316 boys, 2,327 girls, 5,643 students.

Izmir: 27 schools, 1,640 boys, 1,295 girls, 2,935 students, 55 male, 54 female, 109 teachers

Izmit: 38 schools, 5,900 boys, 3,385 girls, 9,285 students, 142 male, 82 female, 224 teachers

Kastamonu; 3 schools, 110 boys, 50 girls, 160 students, 2 male teachers

Kayseri: 42 schools, 3,795 boys, 1140 girls, 4,935 students, 107 male, 18 female, 125 teachers

Kemah: 13 schools, 646 boys, 28 girls, 674 students, 16 male teachers

Kighi: 9 schools, 645 boys, 199 girls, 844 students, 27 male, 5 female, 32 teachers

Konya; 3 schools, 213 boys, 137 girls, 350 students, 6 male, 6 female, 12 teachers

Kutahya: 5 schools, 825 boys, 349 girls, 1174 students, 16 male, 7 female, 23 teaches

Lim and Gduts Islands, Van: 3 schools, 203 boys, 56 girls, 259 students, 5 male, 1 female 6 teachers

Malatya; 9 schools, 872 boys, 230 girls, 1,137 students, 16 male, 3 female, 19 teachers

Marash: 23 schools, 1,261 boys, 378 girls, 1,669 students, 34 male, 10 female, 44 teachers

Mush: 23 schools, 1,034 boys, 284 girls, 1318 students, 31 male, 4 female, 35 teachers

Palu: 8 schools, 505 boys, 50 girls, 555 students, 14 male, 1 female, 15 teachers

Pasen: 7 schools, 315 boys, 7 male teachers

Samsun (Canik): 27 schools, 1,361 boys, 344 girls, 1,705 students, 44 male, 15 female, 59 teachers

Shebinkarahisar: 27 schools, 2,040 boys,  105 girls, 2,145 students, 38 male, 4 female, 42 teachers

Siirt: 3 schools, 163 boys, 84 girls, 247 students, 9 male, 2 female, 11 teachers

Sis/Cilicia: 7 schools, 476 boys, 165 girls, 641 students, 15 male, 4 female, 19 teachers

Sivas: 46 schools, 4,072 boys, 459 girls, 4,531 students, 62 male, 11 female, 73 teachers

Tokat: 11 schools, 1,408 boys, 558 girls, 1,966 students, 37 male, 13 female, 50 teachers

Trabzon: 47 schools, 2,184 boys, 718 girls, 2,902 students, 72 male, 13 female, 85 teachers

Urfa: 8 schools, 1,091 boys, 571 girls, 1,662 students, 19 male, 7 female, 26 teachers

Van: 21 schools, 1,323 boys, 554 girls, 1,877 students, 47 male, 12 female, 59 teachers

Yozgat: 12 schools, 1,179 boys, 557 girls, 1,736 students, 30 male, 13 female, 43 teachers

Zeytun: 10 schools, 605 boys, 85 girls, 690 students, 14 male, 1 female, 15 teachers

These churches and schools were the lifeblood of the Armenians in Turkey. These buildings witnessed countless Armenians’ baptisms, weddings, and funerals; they served as learning centers where eager teachers transferred knowledge to the children; and these buildings became community gathering centers for happy times and sanctuaries during troubled times, until the bitter end at 1915. As the Armenian population got wiped out of Anatolia in 1915, so did these churches and schools. Along with the hundreds of thousands of homes, shops, farms, orchards, factories, warehouses, and mines belonging to the Armenians, the church and school buildings also disappeared or were converted to other uses. If not burnt and destroyed outright in 1915 or left to deteriorate by neglect, they became converted buildings for banks, radio stations, mosques, state schools, or state monopoly warehouses for tobacco, tea, sugar, etc., or simply private houses and stables for the Turks and Kurds.

At present, out of the 34 active Armenian churches in Turkey, only 6 are left standing in Anatolia. The biggest of these buildings is Surp Giragos Church in Dikranagerd/Diyarbakir, the largest Armenian church in the Middle East, which is now being reconstructed as an Armenian church, under the jurisdiction of the Istanbul Armenian Patriarchate. The process of re-claiming more than 200 deeds of lost lands and property belonging to this church has also been initiated. The project funding and construction is already two-thirds complete, with an expected church opening and first Holy Mass to be performed on Oct. 23, 2011. At present, pilgrimage tours are being organized for this historic occasion, along with visits to other historic sites in Eastern Turkey such as Akhtamar/Van and Ani/Kars, continuing to Armenia and Javakhk. There will be more announcements about these tours in the near future.

Sources:

Zakarya Mildanoglu, Agos newspaper April 22, 2011, Istanbul, Turkey

Ottoman Armenian National Council, annual reports 1910-1914, Istanbul, Turkey

Echmiadzin Journal, Yerevan, Armenia 1965-1966 all journals

Dr. H. Hamazasp, Armenian Monasteries in Anatolia, 9 volumes, Vienna Mkhitarist Union, 1940, Vienna, Austria

Raymond Kevorkian and Paul Paboudjian, Les Arméniens dans l’Empire ottoman à la veille du génocide (Armenians in the Ottoman Empire before the Genocide), Paris, 1992

Teotig Lapjinjian, Hayots Koghkota (Armenian Golgotha),  1923, Istanbul, Turkey

Vijagatsuyts, Kavaragan Azkayin Varjaranats Turkiyo, Dedr A-B, Vicag 1901 Darvo (Report on Armenian Schools in Anatolia, Turkey, Booklets 1 and 2, 1901 Status) Armenian National Education Commission Central Directorate, Istanbul, Turkey

Sevan Nishanyan, Adini Unutan Ulke (The Country That Forgot Its Name), Everest Press, 2010, Istanbul, Turkey

Raffi Bedrosyan

Raffi Bedrosyan

Raffi Bedrosyan is a civil engineer, writer and a concert pianist, living in Toronto. Proceeds from his concerts and CDs have been donated to the construction of school, highways, and water and gas distribution projects in Armenia and Karabakh—projects in which he has also participated as a voluntary engineer. Bedrosyan was involved in organizing the Surp Giragos Diyarbakir/Dikranagerd Church reconstruction project. His many articles in English, Armenian and Turkish media deal with Turkish-Armenian issues, Islamized hidden Armenians and history of thousands of churches left behind in Turkey. He gave the first piano concert in the Surp Giragos Church since 1915, and again during the 2015 Genocide Centenary Commemoration. He is the founder of Project Rebirth, which helps Islamized Armenians return to their original Armenian roots, language and culture. He is the author of the book "Trauma and Resilience: Armenians in Turkey - hidden, not hidden, no longer hidden."
Raffi Bedrosyan

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1,407 Comments

  1. Thank you for your article. What about art effects and rare manuscripts looted by French and British Governments?
     

  2. It is well known that Ottoman’s abolished Christian Churches …Example is Famous Aya-Sofia 
    But they did not build even a mosque in the islamic states
    and they use to kill muslims in Arabia (Saudi Arabia…Yemen, Middle East, Egypt… )
    Al-Wahabia initiated because of them…
    They harmed every one from Yemen till Anatolia… Europe…were ever they occupied…
    So don’t mention only Christian homes but they are against Islam states as well…
    see what they are doing for Muslim Sunni Kurds… 
    We need an expert to write about the relation of the “Wahabia” and the Ottomans … 
     

  3. very nice, seems that there were more armenians in ottoman lands than turkish..strange why was it than called ottoman empire and not armenian increased numbers of churches and schools empire

  4. @Anadolu. The Ottoman Empire stretched over many lands in which Turks were a minority. Like Palestine, North Africa, the Balkans….
     
    Also, you’re claiming that the Armenians did not form a majority population anywhere in Anatolia. Fine. Let’s say they were a minority. How then could this minority, which was legally prohibited from bearing arms let’s remember, pose an existential threat to the Ottoman Empire which required extinction/relocation???
     
    Turkish denialists like to have it both ways: on the one hand, they say that Armenians were a small minority and thus have no territorial claims; yet at the same time, they claim that this small minority posed a grave threat to the empire which required genocide.
     
    Fantastic and meticulous article by Raffi Bedrosyan.

  5. And, a Turkey still insults the intelligence of so many peoples via their genocides, via so-called alliances, via all sorts of gyrations to distract and destroy great peoples/civilizations that exceed the ancient and advanced societies beyond that which Turks’ can never/ever offer and be capable to share with other nations, whether neighbors, whether on again/off again ANY alliances… ala Turkish style.

  6. I would love to have enhanced reproductions of these maps to put up in my living room.  Perhaps ALMA could provide assistance since they have the where with all for map reproductions. These maps should be displayed in every Armenian Church.   

  7. Thank you Raffi for highlighting this issue of Armenian Church and School properties in Ottoman Turkey prior to the 1915 – 1922 Armenian deportations and genocide.
    In addition to thousands of Armenian  churches and schools there were  also as many, centuries old, Armenian cemeteries  at every Armenian town and village and community.  Most of these cemeteries had their own small chapels and were surrounded by high stone-built walls.
    My father who was from Nigde  (born in 1890)  mentions in his written memoires  about the 
    Armenian Church, the Prelacy and the near-by Boys School  and also about the Armenian cemetery which had a two meters high stone wall built all around it and the benefactor’s name “Ghazarosian” displayed above the  main gate.  

  8. Dear Mr. Bedrosyan, Thank you for your article and your extensive research.  You did say that both Kars and Ardahan are excluded from the list.  Please be aware that Smyrna is also excluded from the list.  Since there were more than a 130,000 Armenians living in and around Smyrna region there must have been at least a few Armenian Churches and schools; but there was one very huge, majestic and a renovated Armenian Church and a school in the heart of Smyrna in 1922 before Ataturk’s entering and having the Armenian population annihilated. The Armenians in Smyrna have been present in Smyrna since the 10th century.  After the Lusinyan kingdom collapse in Cilicya a great many Armenians from Cilicya have also migrated to Smyrna as well as after Shah Abbas’ conquering the Armenian Highlands, to save themselves more than 25,000 Armenian families have migrated to Smyrna and to the Archipelagos islands.  In 1650 the SAINT STEPPANNOS CHURCH was built in the heart of Smyrna (Izmir) located in the southskirts of Pakos mountain.  This was an enormous monumental and a majestic Church when in 1845 it was burnt down, and it was then rebuilt by the great engineer Melkon Yeremian who was brought in from Gostantnoubolis to do the job.  St. Steppannos Church had an enormous majestic dome, with double towers.  The entrance had marble floors and inside the Church there was 24 marble pillars/columns with a height of 2,20 meters and 1,12 meters in width.  The Church had seven doors with a raised platform ascending by 40 steps.  The inner part of the Church was wondrous with 10 huge marble pillars; each with 5,50 meters height and 1,90 meters width.  From the entrance of St. Steppannos Church till the altar was 24 meters with a nine meter dome.  The grand senior altar was dedicated to Saint Steppannos, the right part of the altar was dedicated to Saint Hovhannou Garabed and the left part of the altar it was dedicated to Saint Mary, mother of God “Sourp Asdvadsadsin”.  On the two sides of this majestic Church there were additional extended small Churches.  On the right and the left side of the Church; the right “madour” was dedicated to Saint Bartholomew and the left “madour” was dedicated to Saint “Kelxatirin”.   Next to this enormous and beautiful Church of course there was the “Arachnortaran” where the prelate presided with it’s various rooms for the clerics as well as a grand room to receiving guests and the prelate’s bedroom.  This was built in 1858.

    Then the St. MESROBIAN SCHOOL for boys.  Smyrna had no schools until the beginning of the 18th century.  The  ST. HRIPSIME GIRLS SCHOOL  was built 25 years after the boys’ Mesrobian School was built.  But along with Saint Steppanos Church, St. Hripsime Girls School was burnt to ashes in 1845 and this school was also rebuilt in 1880.

    Along with the building of the Church and the schools, the national hospital was also built for the community and the vacinities of the Smyrna populace in 1879.

    All of these are taken from my grandfather Minas’ memoirs, who’s uncle was the Archpriest Der Haroutyoun, who was taken away by the gendarmes and killed and martyred in 1922 right after the burning of Smyrna.  Ironically he was the Archpriest and the right hand “deghabah” of the Archbishop Ghevont Tourian who was the Archbishop of the Armenians in Smyrna for 22 years.  Yet in 1922 Archbishop Ghevont Tourian escaped Smyrna all by himself wearing Latin priest’s clothes and migrated to the United States.  He did not even make an attempt to save the skin of his right hand Arpriest Der Haroutyoun nor the 130,000 Smyrna’s Armenian population.             

  9. My above post that was taken from my grandfather’s Memoirs written in Armenian, I have just translated into English.

    Seervart

  10. i am glad of tigran’s reply! my uncle went to tarsus where my family is from, from time immemeorial. he went a decade or two back, and tried to photograph my grandfather’s house. he was terrified! the turks started gathering around him, they were menacing him is what i’m trying to say.it is unsafe for us to go back from where we came!
    we must have justice–not only for our lost family members who died in the genocide, but to humanize our turkish murderers.

  11. well said Tigran. 

    Paging all Turks and their Turkophile  friends: let’s see you find a way out of the logical dead end Tigran has presented to you Denialists.

  12. Dear Seervart,
    Smyrna is shown as Izmir, the Turkish name of the city. Thanks for your comments.

  13. Dear Raffi, You are right, I missed to see Izmir on the list while I was looking for Smyrna alone.  You are most welcomed my compatriot; but this overlook of Izmir gave me an incentive today to traslate Minas’ (my grandfather’s) memoirs into English, which gave the historical events of our fine peoples’ migration to Smirna and the existence of a majestic Armenian Saint Steppannos Church of Izmir, so that our generations would be proud today of it’s existence, thanks to the dedication and the ingenuity of our forefathers who have built it.
     
    Dear Bedros, Thanks for the well wishing, and may God bless you and all my compatriots alike!

  14. Excellent Article.. This should be in the chapters of all school history books… every one of them… i would also like to have those old maps if possible…

    Seervart jan– excellent post.. Got goosebumps when I read it.. wow. .your grandfathe is considers a hero in my book.. to witness and also write his memoir so future generation to study and be educated.. he is indeed a hero in my book…

    Tigran jan– WELL SAID.. you hit the nail on its head.. Turkish govt and denialists do EXACTLY that… blame Armenians for taking up arms and rebel against Ottoman Empire not recalling that Armenians were minority.. BUT when it comes to churches, culture, arts, schools, and everything else that was ours, they try to SHOVE the minority number in everyone’s throat.. such bastards.. but we all know how they operate so it does not come surprise to me when this so called Anadolu posted his comment…      

  15. Dear Gayane, Thank you.  Btw; my grandfather Minas was an educated man of his time.  He was a graduate from the Turkish mililtary school, then after two years he was obligated to serve in the Turkish army; but after the Armenian Genocide happened, he formed his troops and he lead it against the Turks as a “gamavor” Fedayi on the Cilicyan mountains for a year and a half.  Before he wrote his memoirs in a book of the fall of Izmir, he was a distinguished leader, a speaker and an orator amongst Armenians in the Diaspora.

    Halo, Yes I saw it under Izmir the 23 Armenian churches and the 27 Armenian schools, thank y

  16. Yes, it’s true…Armenians, in fact, were not a true ‘minority’, except in a technical sense. Of the 10 million people in Anatolia in 1914, roughly 2 million or somewhat more were idenified as Armenian, and approximately the same number were Turks, Greeks and Kurds. Others, like Assyrians or Jews were true minorities. Moreover, Armenians were the most numerous indigenous people in eastern Anatolia. As such, their history stretches back at least 4000+ years. The fact that they had a massive number of schools, hospitals and churches for hundreds of years should be no surprise to anyone. After such a long settled history, this is the result. It’s called civilization.  Without Armenian civilization, Turks would have nothing.    

  17. The map is very painful to every educated culture person not all for Armenians…To know how we lost our educated people and culture…To start from scratch…
    This should be aveiable to ‘Human Rights’ group…congrats for Raffi and his group.
    As far as i can remember from my grandmother…That there was a collage in Diyarbakir
    where my grandfather Mihran Dabbaghian was graduated as well his brothers, cousins (Kazanjian, Simsarian…).Do you regard collages according to this article as schools?

    SP 

  18. Dear Tigran,

    right, as you have correctly mentioned in some areas Turks were not the majority. But Turks did not migrate to those places either, they mostly ruled it with garrison troops and with local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans. But as the Ottoman Empire stretched over vast lands it had also its own mainland with mainly Turkish citizens. And this is today’s Turkey.

    If you have an internal disorder, with rebellious organizations like the dashnak, hushnak or other underground organizations, who by the way attacked and killed peaceful Armenians as well because they stayed firm and allied themselves with the State (Ottoman empire). If you have such organization secretly and sneaky sabotaging, Ottoman army lines, while the state is attacked from everywhere (West, south front, allies – east front Russia,).This is a very critical point, this something which no government on earth would tolerate. Than one should not wonder why for the sake of internal state order, and for the sake of winning the war against the Allies and Russia, the Armenian population had to be relocated. Is it not strange while for centuries the Armenians were known to be loyal to the state, but due to foreign intervention und and underground organizations, this peaceful neighborhood came to an end. It maybe because of wrong politics. Please note war is a disaster for human mankind, while many Armenians lost their lifes, so too did other Ottoman citiziens lose their lifes and that was no less.

    And if you show here churches and school’s, one should also keep in mind, that most of these buildings were created during the peaceful coexistence between the various ethnic groups, while protected by the state.

  19. Slyva – in those days in Turkey, a ‘college’ was the term used for a high school, not a university. My grandfather attended Euphrates College, and learned English there. As such, he had a great education and was consdered to be a very well educated guy, even though he never attended university.

  20. Karekin-efendi:    Why do you refer to those days when a college was the term used for a high school? Those days are long gone. Step into the real world where the rubber meets the road. For the first time in many centuries, we have an azad Hayastan that’s survived more than just a few years, and you wallow in the past when your grandfather attended Euphrates College and learned English there. You are drowning in your own remembrances. Be fearful for the survival of the nation because of practical considerations on the ground, such as hostile neighbors. No need to drown in remembrances that the same hostile neighbors caused annihilation of your nation. Learn nothing from the past. Never look back. Keep your eye on the real prize, which lies in the future, which in your imaginary world exists without the past.

  21. Though the term “college” was technically a high school by today’s standards it is equivalent to today’s colleges.  Having studied the curriculum of those days of high schools in the US, their studies were more rigid than US colleges of today.

    So the broad use of the word college would be on the same level of a high school in that period of time.  However, the high school of that period had a more rigorous approach to studies than the colleges of today.

    Therefore,  the reference to Euphrates College as a college would be a correct term.

  22. Anadolu.. you sound THE EXACT SAME denialist and closed minded with misfit and misinformation like your comrads that we know very well..

    Your words ring loud and familiar.. it was a war, it was Armenian groups who rebelled, Armenian underground organized groups killed Armenians, both Turks and Armenians  lost lives..war is a disaster….. ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS???? are you listening to yourself? another one to the long list of arrogant,  lost denialist Turk..

    Avery, Karo, Armen, Boyajian, Seervart, Katia and my other well versed in history comrads, please please please educate this poor and lost soul about the TRUE history behind what happened in the Ottoman Empire time.. because he is giving me an ulcer when he speaks with such nonsense….     

    Gayane

  23. Anadolu,

    You have avoided my question, and contradicted yourself once again. Your logic: hunchaks and Dashnaks were rebelling and killing even peaceful Armenians, therefore “Armenian population” had to be relocated. I’m confused. Hunchaks and Dashnaks=Armenian population? Didn’t you just imply that these ‘rebellious’ groups were a minority (‘underground’), and the mainstream Armenians stayed loyal to the state? Keep trying to rationalize genocide, I’m enjoying pointing out your logical contradictions.

    • Why do you not accept to open all archieves(such as Armenian, Russia, Ottoman, American, British, French…etc) and set up a historician committee on researching what happened in 1915?
      Turkey offers it for years.
      Why don’t you accept it and repeat the same thing as a parrot?

  24. this one is Tigran’s case , Gayane.
    Let him have some of the fun. Let’s wait a little. He’ll let us know if he’s busy and want us to take over. 

  25. “[…]in some areas Turks were not the majority. But Turks did not migrate to those places either.”

    Anadolu, they did. Before the establishment of the House of Osman, Seljuk Turks and Mongols—the ancestors of the Ottoman and modern-day Turks—did migrate from the steppes of Mongolia and Central Asia and the mountains of Altay.
     
    “[…]local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans.”
    Now the Turkish commentators changed the tune, huh? Now they tell us that native rulers were allied with the Ottomans. Alliance suggests a voluntary action, which historically it was not. Native peoples and their rulers were colonized by the Ottomans, and under restrictions imposed on them as millets had to maintain unhappy existence under the Turkish yoke.
     
    “If you have an internal disorder, with rebellious organizations like the dashnak, hushnak or other underground organizations[…]secretly and sneaky sabotaging Ottoman army lines, while the state is attacked from everywhere, […t]his is a very critical point, this is something which no government on earth would tolerate.”
    By the mid-19th-early 20th centuries, all colonized nations in the Ottoman empire—Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Albanians, Armenians, and even your fellow Muslim Arabs—wished to slough off colonial shackles and live as independent nations. From the perspective of these nations, it was nothing else than freedom-fighting, struggle for liberation. But let’s get to the point which you characterize as ‘critical’, i.e. no government on earth would tolerate [the struggle of the colonized peoples] which you call internal disorder. It is, indeed, critical, because if we forget for a second that those nations’ struggle was just, in civilized nations governments take into custody those few who stir unrest. Were there a few Armenians revolutionaries longing for freedom for their countrymen? You bet there were, as they were in any nation that ultimately seceded from the Ottomans. But the critical point is that Ottoman Turks preferred not to take into custody those few, but exterminate 2 million innocent people representing one of the most ancient civilizations inhabiting the Earth. On an individual level, if you’re a ‘criminal’, however righteous your motives are, and I’m a gendarme representing a state which, as you say, won’t tolerate unrest, what do you think would be my actions against you? Would I place you, as a perceived criminal, under arrest or I’d rape your mother and sister in front of you, mutilate your father, decapitate your brother, and rip off the womb of your pregnant little sister? This is not an horror movie, Anadolu. These are the barbarian methods of your granfathers.

    The concern of the Ottoman Turks with regard to Armenians was not the internal state order that a few Armenian revolutionaries couldn’t possibly disrupt. After all, there was no single organized mass violence by Armenians against the Turks before 1915. Put your hand on your heart and refer me to any such a mass disorder that Ottoman Armenians caused against the state, even in a Turkish source. You’ll find none. After all, Armenians lived in their majority in the areas fa-a-a-r removed from the frontlines of WWI. The major concern of your savage grandfathers was to secure as much lands from the crumbling Ottoman empire as possible. With the Balkans, Middle East, and Arabia gone, independent Armenians, residing for millennia in the eastern parts of the empire and Cilicia, could have meant the end of Turkish presence in eastern Anatolia. This is the critical point that, I’d dare to say, all of historians agree upon.

  26. Anadolu, even during the ottoman times Armenia was called ARMENIA in every document ,be it the European or Ottoman document!

  27. Avery.. you are right..:) Tigran did a great job and I am sure he would want to say something in regards to Anadolu’s comments.. so we will wait..

    However, I want to say Gor did an excellent job replying to Anadolu… well said Gor jan..

    Gayane  

  28. Dear Gor, Thank you for the good answers and the examples that you gave to Anadolu, I couldn’t have said it better.  I just wish to add that Dashnaktsutyun nor Henchagyans were not underground organizations but very dignified and respectful nationalistic organizations to save Armenians from the Turkish mobs; and they were created right around the Hamidian massacres when Abdul Al Hamid II annihilated 300,000 Armenians on the highlands of Armenia from 1895-1896.  Even then the Turks wanted to do away with the Armenians; all of them.  Henchagyans first then Dashnagtsutyun were created because Armenians were constantly and continuously were being targeted by the Turkish mob in Turkey.  Ever since the Mongolian Seljuk Ottoman Turks came from the middle of Asia in the 10th century, Armenians didn’t have peace.  The entire Armenian population were living in fear every day of their lives; the little boys were being stolen from their mothers, which the Turks made “yenicheris” out of them; which meant, the Turks created a huge Turkish army out of our little stolen boys.  Then our most beautiful women were targeted to be stolen either for the Turks’ harems or whatever their desires were at the time (to rape and kill them or to keep them as their wives in their harems).  Armenians were never safe in their lands living within the Turkish yoke and living next to the Turkish people.  That’s why Henchagyans and Dashnagtsuyun organizations were created to somehow bring safety and solace for the local Armenian people who only worried to go about their jobs, to mind the crops, the sheeps, build bridges, Monasteries, Churches and sing their songs.  When the Ittihadists (the jeneus Turks) came in 1908 they wanted to finish the job of Abdul Hamid, to completely do a thorough annihilation of the Armenians.  They realized that the Armenian question must be finished right then and there and with their bloody criminal bloodsoaked hands. 

  29. To finish my point above is this.  Why the jeunes Turks, the Ittihadists wanted to finish with the Armenian question and kill all the Armenians, perhaps most of us Armenians didn’t know it 50 or so years ago, in another words most of our anscestors probably didn’t know it either; but today most of us know the real reasons of the Armenian Genocide by the hands of the Ittihadists.  They were jealous of Armenians because they were hard working ingenius people and most were very rich, especially the ones who were in the trade business, they were jealous because they wanted their people to take over the businesses and the riches of the Armenians.  They wanted all of Western Armenian lands, but without Armenians.  It was all for money.  Yes lands too, but it was mostly for money.

  30. Let us all remember what Talaat Pasha asked to the U.S. ambassador Morgenthau in and around 1918, after he had most of the Armenians killed by that time and the women and the children were sent into the death marches of southern Arabia by his own orders.  “Do you know where all the insurance papers of the Armenians are”, Talaat asked to Morgenthau.  “They are all dead now, could you give me their insurance papers, so that I will collect their insurance monies?”  This is what Talaat asked to ambassador Morgenthau, and Morgenthau shook his head with disgust and didn’t give him any such insurance forms. 

  31. ANADOLU!
    I think you’d find better acceptance amongst other Turkish apologists and revisionists elsewhere rather than wasting your (and our) time staying in this forum.

  32. Dear Gayane,

    and you sound like the typical person who in his mind prefers an exaggerated adoration of anything that harms Turks. Fact is whoever did wrong did wrong, and God does not like people who do wrong indifferent to which ethnic group he belongs, but when you try to exaggerated things in order to win your case, than this is no help.

  33. Dear Gor,

    if you go back to the times before the Ottoman empire, yes of course Turks migrated from the Asian steps. But this kind of migrations is a human attitude and not merely something that only Turks have doneJ. Armenians maybe also connected to the Persians, before they migrated from Mesopotamia.
    “[…]local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans
    Yes some alliance were made by force some were voluntarily, see Algeria, Tunis, Libya
    Colonized? Please compare the colonization with France, Spain, Belgium, Britain and the Ottomans.
    In the European Parliament, a Greek deputy recently thanked the Ottomans for their fare treatment. As rightly remember, he said thank you that we still can speak our own language it is not normal to speak its own native language after 500 years Ottoman rule. If you keep in mind American or African natives. Anyway I need to continue work, otherwise I’ll get firedJ.
    We may have different perceptions, but I respect the Armenians since we are actually the same people from the same lands.

  34. The history is irrefutable, Armenians have lived in Anatolia since time immemorial. That cannot be denied. There have been many ups and downs during that history. That cannot be denied. But, just as contemporary Mayan or Incan Indians do not maintain a seething anger against the Spanish, despite their horribly low status in their own lands, it does not serve Armenians to stew in anger, either. The real question is, how long does it go on?  WHen does your focus turn from injuries of the past to securing our future?  History is fine, but it does not feed, clothe or heat people’s homes. Thousands upon thousands are leaving Armenia because there are no jobs there and they cannot survive. What is your answer for this situation?

    Robert – yes, I appreciate your assesment about the academic standards at places like Yeprad College. They were, in fact, very high.

       

  35. Anadolu:    Please don’t ‘Dear’ me as a typically Turkish cajolery. Thanks for admitting that Turks are a migrant nation. This must open your eyes to the fact that your forefathers never belonged in Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau. I understand that migrations are characteristic to many peoples, but we’re talking here about a Seljuk/Mongol migration that brought devastation and mass death to highly-developed civilizations inhabiting Asia Minor: Byzantine Greek, Assyrian, and Armenian. Do you appreciate the difference between a mere migration and a migration that was, in essence, a military invasion resulted in destruction of sedentary peoples and their cultural achievements? After invasion and throughout colonization of those peoples, they were physically annihilated in the early 20th century by the Turks. Can you find any mass of Greeks, Armenians, or Assyrians in modern-day Turkey? If migrations, as you said, are ‘human attitude’, are invasions, colonization, and mass physical extermination of indigenous peoples also a ‘human attitude’?
     
    BTW: There are many hypotheses of the origin of the Armenian people, but none mentions Mesopotamia as Armenian homeland. Whether Armenians originated in an area where they lived until being mass murdered by the Turks or not, there is no historical evidence that’d suggest that Armenians caused destruction on massive scale to any indigenous civilizations and then presented other peoples’ cultural edifices as their own, a widespread practice of modern-day Turks with regard to the remnants of the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian churches, monasteries, and cemeteries.
     
    Alliances and colonization.   I speak for Christian Armenians, and also for Greeks and Assyrians, if I may, not for Muslim nations. Some of them might have entered voluntary alliances with the Turks. However, most of the indigenous peoples that Seljuks invaded and Ottomans colonized didn’t invite your ancestors to do so. They fought. They resisted invasions. They were disgruntled by the fact of colonization, even your fellow Muslim Arabs, whose intelligentsia were hanged in Allepo. It was a sheer colonization that made native peoples miserable, voiceless millets under the Ottomans. I don’t have to compare Ottoman colonization with the colonization of the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British for one major reason. Beside grief and oppression, the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British also brought development and civilization to the nations they colonized. Ottoman Turks, descendants of uncivilized nomadic barbarians, brought nothing but grief and oppression which in the late 19th-early 20th centuries culminated into mass physical extermination of all Christian peoples in the Ottoman empire. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Assyrians were exterminated. Armenians suffered the most heinous form of extermination: the genocide and forced deportation of 2 million innocent human beings. Show me any such barbarism during the colonization by the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British? Can you?

    I don’t know what a Greek deputy said in the European Parliament, but the only two major rights that were allowed for Ottoman millets to have were language and restricted practice of religion. The Greek deputy must have forgotten that witness accounts of a Christian against a Turk were disregarded in Ottoman courts; that Christians were unbearably overtaxed as compared to Turks; that Christians were barred from carrying weapons; that Christian villages were subject to constant pillages, loot, and abductions by Muslim bands that always went unpunished; that the windows of a Christian house must not have overlooked the windows of a Turkish house; that Christians were not allowed to mount a horse in order not to be higher than a pedestrian Turk. This we know for sure. Is this called Turkish ‘civilization’?

    Lastly, Armenians and Turks are not ‘the same people from the same lands’. We are an Arian people, not barbarians.Our language belongs to the Indo-European family of language, not Turkic Oghuz family. We are a sedentary people, not nomads. Our lands traditionally were the Armenian Plateau in the easternmost part of Asia Minor, not in the Central Asian steppes and the Altay Mountains. We are the first nation to adopt Christianity as official religion, not Muslims. We’re known by our contributions to the world civilization in arts and sciences, business and trade, architecture, and military art, not by invasions, colonization, and genocide of other nations.
     

  36. Karekin-bey, borrowing from Avery, I refuted your mumblings in other threads, and, make no mistake, will do so whenever and wherever you pop off. Again, contemporary Mayan or Incan Indians, although seen colonization by Conquistadors, continue to live in their historic homeland. Armenians, in contrast, were mass murdered by the Turks and their historic homeland stolen from them as a result.
     
    When does our focus turn from injuries of the past to securing our future? Whenever the murderer apologizes to the victim.

    What is our answer for the situation where thousands are leaving Armenia because there are no jobs there? This situation has been created by what you think cannot feed, clothe or heat people’s homes: history. Landlocked modern-day Armenia is the consequence of the historical fact of theft of Western Armenia by the Turks. Struggling modern-day Armenia is the consequence of the historical fact of physical extermination of Western Armenians and theft of their property and bank accounts.
     
    Not to see this obvious historical link means either playing ostrich or tilting minds. The latter ain’t gonna happen…

    • Ok then!
      Let’s leave Anatolia for you.
      What are you talking about?
      500 hundred years ago, America was belong to whom?
      Please leave America for them of course if you can find them!

  37. To Karekin
    The elderly go mostly to Russia  and accept citizenship to receive pension which Russia owes them since they’ve worked all they life for Soviet Union,and  Russia kept the funds.So it’s justified!And there is no requirement to live there,that’s why everyone returns after they do all the paperwork .I am an Armenian from Armenia,and i know this.

  38. Anadolu,

    FYI- I am not a man.. I am a woman..

    Second of all—–you said
     Fact is whoever did wrong did wrong, and God does not like people who do wrong indifferent to which ethnic group he belongs, but when you try to exaggerated things in order to win your case, than this is no help.
     You just described A TRUE, CODE RED TURKISH DENIALIST …. you hit the nail on its head.. now you understand how your govt is trying to do harm to Armenian people….BY EXAGGERATING their  lies and consequences of not following its orders to be SOOOOOOOOOO DAMAGING that no country especially USA would want to extend the wipping hand toward Turks…meaning having those countries to punish Turkey by any means and say Turkish govt YOU ARE GUILTY and YOU NEED TO CONFESS AND MAKE THINGS RIGHT….

    You speak of GOD???? YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUu??? now this is a first… but unfortunately you used our Lord Jesus Christ in a completly wrong way.. so instead of using GOD which I doubt your ancestors even remotely understood what HE stands for because my people were slaughtered just because they were Christians, you should not talk… but you should truly listen and read things that my friends provide to you.. information you might have never heard of.. So open your eyes and ears and pay attention.. You might be saved… i hope you will..

    Gayane  

  39. Seervart jan— apres.. loved it…:)

    Karekin– I hear you but i don’t get you.. how can you continue to preach the same thing again: history is history and we need to move on.. WE WILL NOT MOVE ON UNTIL JUSTICE IS SERVED my friend.. you do get that right?…

    No on on these pages want to neglect the fact that our country is getting smaller and smaller because alot of our sisters and brothers  leave.. and YES.. that is a problem… a problem that needs to be fixed immediately and no one is denying.. however, we can’t just leave what has been in the works for years and the struggle and the time and money and efforts we put in to accomplish what we started and DESERVE… and that is correcting the history TUrks rewrote about the ARmenians, get them recognize what their ancestors have done and give back what their ancestors have stolen…… without this, they will remain as the murderors who got away with murder.. tha is UNACCEPTABLE.. however, at the same time we need to work ongetting our country back on its feet with whatever means we have.. that is what I am doing.. but we can’t leave one and just concentrate on the other.. These two matters go hand in hand…

    Thank you

    Gayane      

  40. Gor jan… EXCELLENT.. loved reading your comments.. Avery was right.. you definintely are doing your part and I am sooooo glad… hopefully Anadolu and his pathetic friends and we all know who they (actually i am surprised none of them peeked their ugly heads in these thread but i have a feeling someone will pop up sooner or later)  are reading such posts and maybe learning something true…. i am just hoping…

  41. It is amazing that Turkish-trolls never tire of digging up and gloating over bad news from Armenia, yet never seem to be able to find any good news about Armenia in the same world-wide-web. “…maybe there are no good news from Armenia,” you ask innocently ?
    Au contrair, mon ami.
     
    Someone in another thread recently said, “…Read it and weep, folks….”, while linking to yet another article of woes of Armenia.
     
     
    Well, Armenian folks and  friends, read and rejoice. “Armenia registers second industrial growth among CIS states”. (News.am) 
    http://news.am/eng/news/69934.html   

    With all the roadblocks being thrown at RoA, they are able to achieve this much.
    Just imagine what our people could do with access to the Black Sea and the worlds oceans – to have low-cost, reliable trade and transportation routes.
    (BTW: that same somebody also asked what we, Armenians, would do when we get back Western Armenia (that’s right, I said when)). 

  42. AMEN to that Avery jan.. AMEN…

    If we only had the free trade and open borders and sound govt.. we will absolutely rule the area….Turks know this very well…they know that we were superior in education, trade, arts, and culture back then; which is why they attempted to destroy us and they know that now.. which is why they are doing EVERYTHING not to allow that to happen.. but WHEN that happens.. and yes Avery jan I am with you on this.. WHEN that happens, there is no stopping…

    Gayane   

  43. Gayane, although I sympathize with and understand your sentiments and where they come from, keep in mind…no country on earth has ever won a multi-front war, and that’s exactly what this is. So, you have to pick your battles carefully. We do not have alot of resources, so, I think the most important thing is to protect what we have, rather than spend time and energy on what we’ve lost. I know it sounds painful, but why risk what we have?  Why risk the lives of those living in Armenia now and worse, the viability of the entire country?  Someone who is always looking backwards will usually walk into a ditch or a wall, because they are not looking ahead. Sounds corny, but it’s a truism that is worth noting here. 

  44. Avery jan.. thank you for the link about the Turkish lack knowledge piece.. I read it and I also commented on the article…

    one section of the article nailed it:
    When asked whether or not they would be eager to attend an educational program that could help them with commonly encountered problems, between 57 and 65 percent of the families surveyed said it was “not necessary” and added that information from TV and newspapers was sufficient to solve their problems.

    This is why we have so many denialists such as Roberts, Anadolus, Murats, and alike…because they are not educated enough of what is true history, they don’t know their own history let alone try to understand others, they are oblivious, deprived from what every day man and woman needs to know to be independent.. i mean this is why Turkish govt wants though. because they can control them like puppets.. it is sad…

    Gayane   
       

  45. I agree! Every Armenian church must display historic Armenia as well. I would make sure, my church does display these maps. I expect you do the same.

  46. Theoritically, all interested parties in the region seek peace. It would be in interest of all these parties in the region to have a viable Armenian state. Without ARARAT and without access to the black see, there would not be peace in Armenia and in the region as well. Without ARARAT, Armenians are beings with lost soul. I cannot imagine Armenia without ARARAT. Legally, ARARAT belongs to Armenia. The reason for those unfortunate protocols were to legalize the current boarder between Turkey and Armenia which implies that the current boarder is not legal otherwise there would not have been any reason to include those provisions. Only way there would be peace between Turks and Armenians is that Turks return our Western Armenia pay punitive damages for their genocide against Armenians. Every Armenian is obligated to pursue these goals if he or she is proud to be called an Armenian.

  47. “I think the most important thing is to protect what we have, rather than spend time and energy on what we’ve lost.”   —-Following the same ‘logical’ magnum opus by Karekin-bey, Gayane, in 1988-1994 Armenians should have only protected the Republic, not freedom-fighting Artsakh that was lost to Azeristan as a result of Stalin’s transfer in the early 1920s. See, what Socrates-like ‘logic’ the guy has… Amazing logic!

  48. Asa eh Karo jan.. Asa.. bayts inch anem? Karekin just can’t get it.. i know where he is coming from, i understand it but the way he goes about it is all wrong… he is just concentrated on ONE thing.. and that ain’t happening with me. no way…well what can we do? that is the way he is I guess…

  49. Avery,

    Recntly you asked me for a source of my info about Armenia-German connection. I could not remember then, but today I coincidentally came across that again.
    If you go to armeniansworld.com and scroll down to “ARmenian God AR and Hayk Forefather” click on it then scroll down a bit you will find it.  
     

  50. AR:  I checked the link: an interesting site. ‘Stephanie Nazoyan from Canada’ is really beautiful.

    OK, on to more unpleasant stuff.

    re: “Thousands of years later, in the first century AD, another Armenian leader, bearing the sacred name of his kinsmen — Armen or Ar-Man, known Armin[ius] to the Romans and Herman [German]…” 

    I know of Arminius, but not as an Armenian. If he were Armenian, and  neither German nor Roman sources would reveal it –  would be no surprise. However, the citation in the link is weak: there are no precise dates, nor how he got to Germany from Armenia and such, with 30,000 Armenian horsemen: that’s a huge number in those days; there would be record of their travels.  Maybe the author did not have space, but I will have to check other Armenian historians. I don’t remember any other source that cites Arminius as Armenian, but one never knows. For now though, I have to assume he is not. Sorry.

    If I find other sources confirming it, I’ll post. 

  51. Gor, I welcome your intellectual inputs on these pages of AW and I appreciate your last post as well.  Thank you.

    @Anadolu,  I have never heard that Armenians migrated and or came from Mesopotamia.  More than 5,000 years ago Armenians were tribal people and some came from the Thrace region, while others came from today’s north-western Greece, the Hiasa’s, Nairi’s then migrated to the Armenian Highlands and were mixed  with the Urartians in

  52. Avery,
    One of the most valuable ARmenians alive, Alexander Varpetyan, also covers that topic.  I don’t remember where exactly he does, but he was my original source for ARmeno-German connection.

  53. Dear Tigran,
    The Huchnaks and Dashnaks, had their aims. And anything what stood against it had to be removed, why don’t you check the manifesto  of these groups.(see below one citation). It’s not much different than today’s terrorist groups, or the communist cells that killed through terrorist acts government staff and ordinary citizens. The Huchnak and Dashnaks were recruiting more Armenians, which were radicalized by their propaganda, but Armenians who lived in welfare were not interested in that.
    To create social chaos against which the Ottoman army would react and to thereby ensure the intervention of Western powers in the situation.
    All was very well planed, create chaos, attack muslim citizens (in oder to have revenge and killings), by that it would be blamed to the Ottoman State. Ask western countries for help because Armenians were killed, with the assistance of Western Consuls and it’s Christian missionaries assisting the Huchnak and Dashnak propaganda in transmitting it to western public opinion.

  54. One more example:
    The first move adopted on April 24, 1915 was to ban all Armenian committees and to arrest 2.345 leaders for crimes against the State. The date of April 24, commemorated by the Armenians abroad as the anniversary of genocide against Armenians, is the date of these arrests and has nothing to do with the replacement.
    The Etchmiasin Patriarch, a priest named Kevork, sent the following cable to the United States President upon this move:
    Mr. President, according to the latest news received from the Turkish Armenia, a massacre started there and an organised terror has put the Armenian lives in danger. In this precarious moment, I am addressing to the noble sentiments of the great American nation and ask you to intervene immediately through your Great Republic’s diplomatic representation for protecting my people left to the mercy of the violence of Turkish fanaticism, on behalf of humanity and Christian belief.
    Kevorg, Ecumenic Patriarch of all Armenians.
    This cable was followed by the Washington contacts of the Russian Ambassador.
    The incident here was merely the banning of Armenian committees and the arrest of the culprits. Yet, the Armenians endeavoured to display it as a massacre and to rally the United States and Russia into their ranks.

  55. Anadolu – the Armenian political parties – which were working with the leaders of the CUP, were taking steps to 1) stop unfair taxation and reform land ownership issues 2) defend their towns and villages from government sponsored (Kurdish) raids and 2) move towards autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, what would bring the benfits of the millet system to a political level. Even though they had seen Greece and other territories gain independence earlier, that was not their original aim. It was not until they were betrayed by the leaders of the CUP did they become more emphatic in trying to protect the Armenian population. You may see this as ‘terrorist’ activity, but from the Armenian point of view, it was purely self-defense. The response by the CUP was a multi-year, murderous rampage designed to get rid of Armenians, steal everything they owned and had created, and open up space for Muslims who were leaving the Balkans and the Caucasus. It many ways, it was the precursor of the idea promoted by Hitler, to open more space for Germans. And, the result was the same…national disaster, not just for Armenians, but for Turks, Greeks and everyone else who had lived under the Ottoman umbrella. Most nations have their creation myths, and Ataturk, by erasing as much evidence as possible, sought to reprogram people’s minds. His propaganda effort…to elevate the word ‘Turk’, while demoting those who had actually built and supported the empire for centuries, the Armenians and Greeks, was racist to the core. It’s almost laughable, because he himself, was not a Turk at all…and he expanded the stain created by the Ittihadists. This, Turkey for the Turks (many of whom were never really Turks at all)….concept created misery and pain for millions of people for decades. You can’t blame Armenians for any of that….it was self-created by Turkey’s revered, if criminal, leaders, who by the way, ran the country with an iron fist.       

  56. It was indeed a massacre planned and carried out as such. The goal was to exterminate community leaders with the goal of drowning out those that might raise their voices to outside powers/publicize the continued deterioration of situation with regards to the Christian population in Turkey. And guess what happened to the vast majority of those 2,345 Armenians (the vast majority of whom were not involved in politics and none of whom called for the overthrow of the Ottoman state)? They were killed. No explanation, no trial, just taken from their families wholesale  and killed. Soon after the roundups and massacres of Armenians in the interior intensified (these had actually begun in late 1914) and now in areas nowhere near “the front”. 

    The Hunchak and Dashnaks will always be the red herring for Turks and used as an excuse. Again, the vast majority of Armenians were not involved in politics, were not party members, and were just trying to survive from day to day (an awful like the Kurds today–Turks never learn I guess. They de-populated and destroyed thousands of villages, made life miserable for the Kurdish population for decades in order to eliminate a few thousand members of the PKK but in the process have ensured that the PKK continues to gain new membership through their heavy-handed methods. How is that working for Turkey? And they Turks have the audacity to complain about the light of Palestinians, Uighurs, etc—-hypocrisy). While the Hunchaks were the more radical of the two– and also a very small membership, the Dashnaks were eager to work with the CUP but were eventually betrayed by the Pan-Turk elements that took charge. Some of those 2,345 were actually parliament members when they were killed. 

    That priest had every right to notify outside forces about the situation. Where else could he turn, the Ottoman authorities? The ones that were committing this crime? Would you trust a government that is terrorizing your people?

     

  57. Dear Gor,
    To Dear you is not a typically Turkish cajolery It’s a standard way of starting a correspondence with each other. And second it’s a form of respect nothing else. Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier some later. Some have fought battles for it and defended it successfully and some conquered lands. Before Turks arrived, there was War as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian wars over Anatolia. You exaggerate again, Byzantine Greek was so great so wonderful yes, and you forgot the heavy taxation of the Greeks and how badly they treated non Greek citizens. If after the Turks settled between Armenians and Kurds and all with it brought great devastation and mass death over centuries as you said, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?
    Armenian people, so if you are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accept the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians. Or mix marriages. But in your mind of course it would only forced mixes through harems and enslaving. In those days every nation enslaved other as a spoil of war, so don’t worry it was not a mere Turkish practice.
    Colonization, the French massacred almost 1 million Algerians this is only to mention so it was not only mere oppression and grief. Spaniards who destroyed and killed and totally annihilated South America in the early colonization British who murdered peaceful American Indians, Native African but no problem they were all uncivilized right? Where are the Indian American now, in reservation camps? What is left of Native American nothing, right nothing is left.
    Lastly, your comparison shows just how deep frustrated you have become with all this extreme stories about so called brutal Turks and innocent Armenians. Radical Armenians killed and massacred so many innocent Turkish and Kurdish citizens, and at this fact you won’t even look, but for you Turks and Kurds are uncivilized and barbarians. If you show such hatred, do not wonder why people take measures in order to protect themselves from hatred. I guess this ideological hatred against the Turks and Kurds, brought the actual war between the people of Ottoman Empire.

  58. Children gather around for tonight’s happy fairytale.
     
    There was this mythical paradise called Ottoman Empire, where Christians and Muslims lived happily as equals.
    Turks, whom the indigenous Armenians had invited to come in from their homeland near the Altai Mountains, treated their gracious hosts with great respect and love. Armenian boys, girls, and young women were lovingly abducted and subjected to …. lovemaking.
     
    Armenians were allowed to ride horses, same as Turks.
    Armenians were allowed to testify against Turks in court, same as other Muslims.
    Armenians were taxed at the same rate as Turks.
     
    In 1895,  300,000-500,000 Armenians were lovingly massacred by their caring Father, Sultan Hamid.
    In 1909, another 30,000 Armenians were lovingly massacred in Adana. 
    There were regular massacres to show Armenians how much they were loved and appreciated.
     
     
    All that love and harmony came to an abrupt  and tragic end in 1915. Evil foreigners from Salonika, who were not Turks, decided to disrupt the peace and harmony that existed between Armenians and Turks, the Christians and Muslims.  They were not Turks, they were not even Muslims – but presented themselves as such. They were of that “other” religion. They were, umm, ummm,…..,Jooos. Even their leader Mustafa Kemal was a Joo.
     
    So they succeeded in destroying the Ottoman Paradise, exterminated 1.5 million Armenians, several hundred thousand Greeks and Assyrians – and succeeded in blaming it all on Turks: a false, scurrilous accusation.
     
    Go to bed now children. Happy dreams.

  59. Avery jan.. you are the best.. can’t get enough of your posts… i swear you just make these discussion so much interesting.. i truely enjoyed your last post.. You just made Anadolu look so small with his nonsense that I hope he stops embarassing himself over and over again.. it does not seem like he gets the point that his comments sound sooo stupid because his notion of history is soooooooo distracted by what he was fed by the TUrkish govt that it is sickening…thank you..i was laughing… :)

    Gayane

  60. Anadolu- Please STOP… WOW.. i don’t know if you are truly ignorant about the facts of life and hstory or you just being intentionally ignorant and can’t stop yourself from writing soo much garbage?? i don’t get it..

    You said
    Armenian people, so if you are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accept the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians. Or mix marriages

    ok so you have lived thousands years ago and had a Mesopotamian family friend right? you know how they look like… well if you are that educated, why don’t you give us an example of how Mesopotamians look like because I have no idea… i have never seen one myself… obviously you have in your lifetime, otherwise you would not be so sure that we look like them…

    Why do we look like Turks??? We DONT look like TUrks.. .Turks look like US… unfortunately, indigenous Armenian race was fair skin and light eyes..  you know why this dynamic changed over?? ummmmmmm….welllll… knowing that your capacity of true history is limited or simply just not there, i would say because of rape, forceful marriages and adbuctions of beautiful Armenian women by your barbaric ancestors… your ancestors had a plan.. to mix their genes with Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians.. because these people were simply more beautiful…your race is pleaseant to look at  because of our beautiful women.. you should thank us for giving you good looking genes.. the mixed marriages you speak of is the product of Genocide and not because Armenians were dying to mix with your barbaric ancestors… I know it sounds harsh but reality and truth usually does…… so you stand corrected on this statement…….

    Many Armenian accepted Islam? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? if any of them who accepted Islam is ONLY because they had NO CHOICE.. NO CHOICE you hear me.. don’t act like Armenians were dying to join the Islam and accept that as their religion… They did that to survive from your barbaric ancestors… do you understand that much? No Armenian in their right mind will turn to Islam.. We are Christians and we will remain as such….So you stand corrected on this statement as well.. Where do you get this stuff?? Who provides you this nonsense???….      

    You said:  If after the Turks settled between Armenians and Kurds and all with it brought great devastation and mass death over centuries as you said, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?

    ummmmm because Armenians were already established before the barbarians arrived and it took some time before Turks realized Armenians are better than them and they can’t allow them to live or else … soooo Anadolu to answer your question… Armenians have ALWAYS been superior in their intellect, culture, arts, music, trade than Turks.. maybe after you realize this much, then you will understand why your ancestors attempted to wipe out a race tha they were intimidated of…so don’t act like the Ottomans allowed Armenians to be rich businessmen, or built churches and schools…. so you stand corrected on this statement ….

    I feel like this is a nonstop rollercoaster with your denalists… we turn one and another pops up… Do you mind letting us know where you received your education about Armenian history and GEocide??? I would like to understand where you are coming from and what sources you get your information… i would suggest though..turn to sources OUTSIDE OF your Turkish propaganda pages, and learn from Non-Turkish sources… the information you will learn will enlighten and astonish you… it may be hurtful because you will know the truth but nonetheless it will be very helpful…    who knows ????

    Gayane  
     

      
      

  61. Anadolu:    We’re not involved in the exchange of official correspondence so you must start your comments with a mandatory salutation ‘Dear’. I take it as a mockery. Please refrain. Least of all I need ‘respect ’ from a Turk whose ancestors buried my paternal relatives alive near Digranakert (Diyarbekir). You’ll soon get rebuttals to each and every historically distortive excuse that you offered for the Turkish mistreatment and genocide of Armenians. Until then, drink a cup of coffee and continue daydreaming about what highly-civilized, peaceful, and human life-respecting nation the Turks are.

  62. Anadol brought up an interesting point regarding genetics. The Turks were asiatic nomads in Central Asia, much more akin to physical attributes of Mongolians and more specifically Uighurs. Along there westward the Turks adopted Islam, mixed with the Persians, (adopted many Persian loan words and customs). During the time the Byzantines were in flux. Through warfare, kidnapping, rape etc, the Seljuks (and later the Osmalis) appropriated the bloodlines of Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks (Kurds also to a degree though at this time they were located in northern Persia what is now northern Iraq)This would be repeated in the Balkans. THe vast majority of Turks are now related more closely to the aforementioned peoples than their Central Asia forbearers. Some Turks (though few) have retained their Central Asia lineage- namely the Yuruks and some minor Turcoman family groups now living in Central Anatolia. These tribesmen followed a century or so after the initial Seljuk and Osman push. That being said, beyond language the all the trappings of Turkish culture, cuisine, architecture, etc come from Persians, Greek, Armenians, Assyrians, Slav. You cannot fault them for this. You can only fault them for trying to hide it 

  63. Gayane:

    Thanks, but my fairytale was directed at someone that posts under an Armenian name.
    Read his  post in this thread carefully: there is a subtle message that has been proffered previously and to which I object to. If you are not familiar with his agenda, you need to take the time to read  his previous posts. He is not crude and obvious as most of the Turks posting here, but far more effective in spreading a defeatist and divisive message.

    Gor and Tigran are handling Anadolu: he/she is in good hands.

    (thanks again for the kind words)

     

  64. Of course, Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian, but they are not and have never been European or Greek or anything else. That is a fantasy imposed on them by the Americans and British to justify their incursion into Armenian territory and make Armenians feel ashamed at their own past and history. Armenians have been an indigenous people, probably since their arrival from the south (as per the legend of Hayk), perhaps 10,000 or more, years ago. 

    As for the myths that are part of today’s Turkish nationalist consciousness…let’s not forget that these lies have been pounded into the heads of Turkish children for several generations. It is not unlike the tradition in America that until relatively recently – the 1970s ? – always called the native American Indians ‘savages’…only because they fought to defend their homeland.  Those left in Turkey after 1923 were not even able or allowed to read anything of their past, because the Arabic script and Osmanli Turkish became not only foreign to them, but incomprehensible. History was not offered in translation, but reinvented thru the myths and racist fantasies of Ataturk and his cohorts.  As a result, several generations of modern Turks have no idea who really built their country…or that their cultural patrimony was developed, not by Turks, but by Armenians.  One small, but key example is Hampartzum Limondjian…who devised the musical notation for all classical Turkish music that is still in use today. Another is the Balyan family of architects, or Sinan…who designed and built some of the most beautiful mosques in the world. Armenians are an important part of Turkish history. No one should ever forget them or their contributions. And, if they need to be reminded…Armenians are more than willing to offer remedial education. 

     

  65. Avery jan.. I totally know what you are saying now.. I know exactly who the story was for.. I got it..:) and I agree with you.. but to my surprise, his last few comments were actually pro-Armenian.. :)

    I am confident Gor and Tigran will handle this matter very well..:)

    Gayane   

  66. “Of course, Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian, but they are not and have never been European[…]. Americans and British’[…] incursion into Armenian territory.”
     
    —-Six illiterate blunders in one sentence:
     
    (1)Of course.    Karekin-efendi the Historian has already determined—while international historians are still debating the origins of Armenians because origins of ancient peoples are hard to ascertain for sure—that of course Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian.
     
    (2)Armenians are Mesopotamians.   New magnum opus by Karekin-efendi the Historian never in any chronicle or scholarly publication existed before he popped off on these pages. The itinerary of the Noah’s Ark, i.e. where it was built and from where it came to the mountains of Ararat and landed are still hotly debated by true historians, but the newly-cooked ones already know that Haik, the grandson of one Noah’s sons, Japeth, came from the south.
     
    (3)Armenians are Anatolians.   What is Anatolia? Never has such a geographical toponym appeared in ancient chronicles until Turks started to name eastern parts of Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau as ‘Anatolia’ or in Turkish ‘Anadolu’ (also a pen name which a Turkish denialist uses in this thread). Armenians  have their own, unique geographical location called Armenian Plateau in eastern Asia Minor. There has never been ‘Anatolia’ involved in this in ancient history.
     
    (4)Armenians are Caucasian.   Only if related to race, but I don’t think Karekin-efendi the Historian meant race, but geographical affinity, rather. Armenians do not belong to Caucasian peoples because they have no access to the Caucasus mountain range, as Georgians and all those numerous mountainous peoples residing there. The greater part of the Armenian homeland is in eastern parts of Asia Minor, what are now eastern provinces of Turkey after they were savagely emptied of Armenians in 1915. Even during the Soviet times, the Russians called the region where the Armenian Soviet republic situated ‘Transcaucasia’, meaning: what lies beyond the Caucasus mountain range. This said, Georgians are much more Caucasian by nature than Armenians.
     
    (5)Armenians have never been European.   Only in as much as they have never been Mesopotamian or Anatolian or Caucasian. However, Armenians were the easternmost neighbors and sometimes parts of three great European empires: the Roman, the Byzantine Greek, and the Russian.
     
    (6)Americans and British’[…] incursion into Armenian territory.    I should like to see any evidence of the American and British’ incursion in to Armenia. Would be humbly grateful to Karekin-efendi the Historian for his enlightenment of this ‘Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian’ Armenian intellectual.

  67. Karekin,  Why don’t you read further into the history of the Armenians.  Part of the Armenians did migrate from Thrace as well as from what is north-eastern of today’s Greece as well as the indeginous people living in the Highlands of Armenia (the Haiasas and the Nairians), they were mixed with the Urartians who were located in the Van region within the Armenian Pltateau.

  68. Correction in my above post.  Other than Thrace, Armenians also came from of what is today’s north-western part of Greece before migrating to the Armenian Plateau, much before the Bronze Age.  As I said before and others too in here that we are at least 5,000 year old civilization if not more.

  69. Are you ready, Anadolu? Here I come.
     
    “Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier some later.”
    — Partly agree. There are also representatives of human race that originated in their unique environment.
     
    “Some have fought battles for it and defended it successfully and some conquered lands.”
    — Partly agree. Other conquered lands, scorched them, devastated structures and cultural edifices, and caused massive loss of human life.
     
    “Before Turks arrived, there was war as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian wars over Anatolia.”
    — Those wars didn’t bring destruction at a scale remotely reminiscent to what nomadic Turks brought to the region. Also, at those times there was no such a toponym as Anatolia. This is a Turkish creation to indicate a part of Asia Minor and, especially, replace the Armenian Highland (or Plateau) where Armenians have lived for millennia with this cooked-up term.
     
    “Byzantine Greek [levied] heavy taxation and […] badly treated non-Greek citizens.”
    — The major disagreement with the Greeks that Armenians had was bilateral misinterpretations of the nature of Jesus Christ. That is, murders, plots, and sometimes a few small-scale wars that were waged between the Byzantines and Armenians were in larger part related to a Christian doctrine that the Chalcedon Assembly adopted, but Armenians rejected. However, we know no such thing as humiliating treatment of non-Greeks in the Byzantine empire similar to the treatment of non-Turk millets in the Ottoman empire. In case you don’t know, be aware that several of Byzantine emperors were Armenians. Can you imagine such a thing in the Ottoman empire?
     
    “If after the Turks settled and with it they brought great devastation and mass death over centuries, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?”
    — The answer is very simple. Every metropolis tends to utilize to the best of its abilities the wealth, industrious talents, and cultural achievements of the peripheries. On this, I’d agree with you: Ottoman empire was no different from the Brits or the Spaniards. Churches and schools existed because, like I said, restricted practice of religion and teaching in national language were the only rights that were granted to Armenians. At the same time, Armenians were barred from all other basic civil rights: representation in legislatures, holding an office in the government, legal protection, equal taxes, equal representation in the courts, arms-carrying for self-protection from pillaging Muslim bands, etc. I never heard of Armenians working in the Ottoman government; for the government, yes, for example architects Balian who designed and constructed the Dolmabahçe Palace, but in the government – is a fantasy. Further, Armenians were rich tradesmen first and foremost because of their superior wit and industriousness as compared to Turks. Why were they allowed to function? For the same old imperialistic reason: to enrich the state, as unbearably higher taxes were imposed on Armenians than on Turks. All is very simple.
     
    “If Armenians are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accepted the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians.”
    —This is sheer rubbish. No hypothesis exists that’d suggest that Armenians came from Mesopotamia. I can understand why Armenians, Persians, or Greeks resemble each other, after all of these three nations are ones of the most ancient peoples inhabiting the Earth. But the fact that Turks appeared on the world map only in the 11-12th centuries suggests that it is you who look like Armenians, not the other way round. Do a simple chronology, please.
     
    “Colonization, the French massacred almost 1 million Algerians this is only to mention so it was not only mere oppression and grief. Spaniards who destroyed, killed, and totally annihilated South America, British who murdered peaceful American Indians.”
    — In the French case, it was a colonization war in which, sadly, the French army used force that led to killings of Algerians to repress popular demonstrations and armed rebellions against French domination. No such demonstrations or armed rebellions were registered on the part of unarmed, disorganized, and mostly rural Ottoman Armenians. In the Spanish Conquistadors’ case, the prevailing majority of South American natives became victims of contagious diseases that the Spaniards brought from Europe. Yes, there were killings, too, but a few Conquistadors couldn’t possibly kill hundreds of thousands of natives. Diseases and domestic civil wars were the primary reason. Likewise, in the case of American Indians: there were killings, but the bulk of victims had also died from diseases. Here, you conveniently forget one major difference in all these cases that Turks so love to bring in to justify their genocide of Armenians. Neither Algerians, nor Incas and Mayas, nor American Indians were citizens of the same country as their oppressors. The French were colonizing outsiders. The Spaniards were colonizing outsiders. The British were colonizing outsiders. In the case of Ottoman Armenians, 2-2.2 million people were savagely slaughtered by their own government. Do you appreciate this major difference?
     
    “Where are Indian Americans now, in reservation camps? What is left of Native American, nothing is left.”
    — With all due respect for the American Indians, they did not create structures, or educational, medical, and charitable facilities, or religious institutions, or cultural monuments, or developed pastures, or trade facilities, or business offices. Therefore, almost nothing, except for their villages that are now preserved in reservations, could have been left on Indian lands after the arrival of the British and French. Armenians, in contrast, had a whole ancient civilization developed on their lands. What’s left of it now?

    “Your comparison shows just how deep frustrated you’ve become with all extreme stories about so-called brutal Turks and innocent Armenians. Radical Armenians killed and massacred so many innocent Turkish and Kurdish citizens, and at this fact you won’t even look, but for you Turks and Kurds are uncivilized and barbarians.”
    — Have Armenians exterminated Turks as a nation? If yes, why are you 70 million now? How many Armenians are left in Turkey? 60,000? What happened to 2-2.2 million? If this is not an extreme reality, then what is it? For Armenians, these are not “stories”, these are survivor and witness accounts that were passed to us by our grandparents about the brutality and barbarism of the Ottoman Turks. One can go insane when he reads what indescribable tortures and mutilations your forefathers inflicted on women, girls, children, elders, and even the unborn. If this is not brutality and barbarism, then what is it? I can imagine there were inter-ethnic, inter-communal clashes between different ethnic groups in which Turks were killed, too. But you again conveniently miss the major point: Armenians were not the governing regime of the Ottoman empire and therefore wish not and could not commit the crime on the genocidal scale, as Turks did. No inter-ethnic clashes or grievances in a multi-ethnic empire can justify savage extermination of a whole people by the government. This is what Turks stubbornly fail to hear, because it’s not soothing their ears.
     
    “If you show such hatred, do not wonder why people take measures in order to protect themselves from hatred.”
    — I don’t hate you personally, or any ordinary modern Turk, for that matter. But I hate your unrepentant murderer-state and your denialist government. What would you expect me, a descendant of a genocide survivor, to do for the memory of millions of butchered people? Unconditionally love Turkey?!

  70. Seervart..the theory of ‘Thracian’ origins has been disproved. You need to study the newest history and particularly, the development of languages, especially proto-IndoEuropean. It shows that this entire tree of languages originated in the Armenian highlands, aka, the Armenian plateau, at least 7500 years ago, but possibly as much as 9000 years. If anything points to an indigenous, Armenian origin, this is it. Armenia is not called the cradle of civilization for nothing – it truly was! 

  71. Gor jan.. BRAVO.. absolutely excellent post.. wow… that post just shot all the room to wiggle but then knowing denialists like Anadolu, I am sure they will have something stupid to say EVEN after all that data provided…..thank you.. i truly learned alot..

    Gayane

  72. Seervart, there are several hypotheses on the origin of Armenians; Thracia as a point of migration of a part of proto-Armenians being one of them. Also, north-western part of Greece is where roughly Thracia was situated. Therefore, Thracia and north-western part of modern Greece are not two different locations from where a proto-Armenian tribe might have traveled to the Armenian Plateau. There are other theories, too, however I never heard of Mesopotamia as a migration point of Armenians. In general, a hypothesis cannot be disproved or approved because it is a hypothesis, but what’s becoming increasingly certain is that more international historians and anthropologists tend to agree that the Armenian Plateau might have been the indigenous birthplace of the Armenian nation, where Indo-European Armen and Haik tribes amalgamated with Urartian tribes of Hayasa, Nairi, etc. thus resulting in the modern Armenian nation. This hypothesis is the strongest because it reconfirms that Armenians are not a migrant, but an indigenous nation, a strong argument against Turkish allegations that, just like Turks, Armenians, too, have migrated from somewhere, even if several thousand years earlier than newly-popped up Turks.

  73. Hi Gor, Thank you for the explanation.  I as well have never heard that Armenians came from Mesopotamia. It was the Mitranis.  Of course we are the indigenous nation of the Armenian Plateau and have amalgamated with the Urartu tribes.  The Turks say many things; but history knows it that they came a 1000 years ago from the Mongolian stepes into Armenia and the Hellene territories.

  74.  Anadolu, During the CUP there was one brilliant Armenian statetsman in the Turkish parliament, and his name was Krikor Zohrab.  He was a great orator and respected by everyone in the parliament as he was an eloquent speaker and thought the Turkish people great many things as deputy in the Turkish parliament; but even that didn’t make him immune to be deported with the 300 Armenian intellectuals from Istanbul.  He was taken to Diyarbekir and killed on June 3, 1915.

  75. Gor…you might want to factor in Armenian legend, which says that Hayk came from the south, after he was expelled by Bel (perhaps, Baal?). This has yet to be disproven, but if true, I suspect this legend is one of creation and stretches back into the realm of human prehistory. It has now been shown, with the oldest shoe and oldest wine vats, that even at 5-6 thousand years ago, Armenians were cultivating grapes and tanning leather, which are two very sophisticated technologies. We also know that the petroglyphs at Metsamor have been dated to at least 10,000 years ago, but perhaps sa much as 40,000.

    And yes, while several Byzantine emperors were of Armenian origin, so were many Ottoman sultans, who always had non-Turkish mothers…often Armenian, or Greek, or Circassian. This is a known fact. So, quite a bit of Armenian blood ran thru the veins of those living in the Topkapi and Dolmabache palaces   And, just to put icing on the cake, the head eunuch who protected the harem…the aghassi…was always a super protective and loyal Armenian.  

  76. Having non-Turk mothers, as in the case of some Ottoman Sultans, pales in comparison with being 100% Armenian, as in the case of some Byzantine Emperors (e.g. Leo V, known as ‘The Armenian’). I only know that Bloody Assassin Abdulhamid II might have had an Armenian mother. Who are other Ottoman Sultans so that we might say that ‘quite a bit of Armenian blood’ ran thru the veins of those living in the Topkapi and Dolmabache palaces? Likewise, eunuchs protecting Turkish harems (big deal!) pale in comparison with army commanders, generals, and court merchants that Armenians produced in Byzantine Greece.

  77. It is interesting that individuals that try to convince other Armenians of the supposed benefits of the Ottoman Turk rule over Armenians, consider it a high achievement for Armenians that head eunuchs  were super protective, were loyal, and drum roll please – were always Armenian. Apparently in the twisted Turkophile universe this is considered some kind of high achievement for an Armenian. What is next, that the most famous harem madam was also Armenian ?
     
     
    It would also be interesting to juxtapose the list of famous, such as they are, Armenians under Turk Ottoman rule with  that of Armenians of high achievement under Russian Tsarist rule, and thence under Soviet/Russian rule: World famous Admirals, Marshalls, Generals, Scientists, Inventors, Painters, Artists, …….
     
     
    The same individuals who glorify the alleged benefits of Ottoman rule over Armenians, never tire in their campaign to convince us of the alleged damage Russians have caused to the Armenian nation and Armenians.

  78. Indeed, Avery.  A Turkophile non-Turk is oftentimes more harmful than a genuine Turk.
     
    P.S.  Just realized that I paraphrased Lenin, who once said: “Russified aliens are always much more Russian than the Russians themselves.”

  79. Seervart Jan, several years ago I happened to meet the Turkish Consulate in his office, Los Angeles California for taking care of their computer systems. I opened the issue of Armenians. His response was  ” everything is because of money,” I repeated myself just make sure he understood me. His response still was the same. You are right. But the problem with Turkish Genocide against Armenian is that they cannot redress Armenians by just paying money. That is why only way Armenians can agree to settle with Turks would be to returne our Wetern Armenia.

  80. Papken jan, The Ittihadist CUPs right after 1908 when they took over the government, the next year they attacked Adana.  Why did they attack and had the Armenian people of Adana annihilated?  Because Adana was the most richest community within the Turkish Republic.  That’s why the Ittihadists right away attacked Adana, for their riches and for their money.  The reason of the Armenian Genocide with the bloodsucking bloodthirsty hands of the Ittihadists was for money.

  81. Papken, Yes of course I more than agree with you.  The Turks must pay the blood money of our 2 million martyrs that they atrociously and mercilessly annihilated with the return of our anscestral homeland.  Reparations must be paid in full by the Turkish government with our Western Armenian Highlands.  We want reparations in the form of our Kars, Ardahan, Ararad Mountain, Erzerum, Erzinga, Van, Sassun, Moush, Bingoel, Palu, Kharpert and Dikranagerd.

  82. Anadolu
    I feel that your initial condescending remarks on the lost Armenian churches and schools are out of place. You wrote: why was it then called “ottoman empire” and not “armenian increased numbers of churches and schools empire?” Don’t you know that the Armenians lost all these churches and schools in spite of the solemn promise in the decision of  deportation of may 27, 1915, that Armenian property would be respected?
    Regarding the arrests of april 24, 1915: As far as I know  it is claimed that the arrests on april 24, 1915, concerned  political leaders that the ittihadists wanted ut of the way as a potential illoyal group. If this was so their action is in line with much of the military thinking at the time and later (the US interned all Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbour) But here the analogy stops. What happened to these arrested Armenians later?  Kemal Cicek, the Turkish association of historians, claims that the arrested were  only were terrorists. In the paper of his that I have access to however he only names one, Komitas, thecomposer,  and Cicek claims he was a terrorist. Komitas was released, by the way. Obviously, the text of Cicek is very unsatisfactory and betrays the problems Turks have with encountering their past. On the other hand, it seems that all the arrested were not killed. Grigoris Balakian in the “Armenian Golgotha” provides the names of 131 Armenians who were arrested on april 24, based on the information he collected. Out of these 48 survived and 12 more returned to Istanbul, from where some of them were able to flee to country, and some simply stayed as part of the Istanbul Armenians who never were deported and survived the whole war. – But this is only a small part of the total picture. Armenian deportees were not fed, were massacred in thousands and tens of thousands, and died in the numbers of hundreds of thousands, if not more. Moreover, in spite of lots of constant reports sent to the authorities about massacres, those who massacred were hardly ever brought to justice. I can only find a handful examples of Muslims punished for atrocities against Armenians. What does this tell about the attitude and possible intentions of the government? This is is not a rhetorical question on my part. How do you interpret this, Anadolu?
        

  83. I don’t know of any moslem dominated country on this planet that treats christians as equals. Could someone enlighten me?

  84. The aftermath of 1915, into the post-1923 era, actually might tell us even more about the true intentions of the CUP…it was murder and theft, on a grand, unimaginable scale…and, it continued to put fear into the Armenians of Turkey for meny, many years.  The state appropirated all abandonned Armenian properties, handed them over to CUP and Ataturk loyalists and worked very hard to hide its actions, not only from its own population, but from international observers, as well. In their minds, this must be the perfect crime….and, there are lots of accomplices…including the US, the UK and others.

  85. You are correct in stating that Darwin jan.. i have not encountered any Muslim countries treating Christians as equals either.. on the contrary, they look down and simply void anyone who is not Muslim.. So i would love to be enlightened as well..

    Ragnar-if i did not know you personall and up close, i would say you may be leaning on our side.. even though your post to Anadolu was informative to him; i still don’t feel you are on the side of the truth…thank you nonetheless.. however a correction.. there were 2 million if not more innocent Armenians who were deported, murdered, raped and killed vs thousands upon thousands…  

  86. Gayane; That is why we must build those churches in Karabakh. In Turkey, just about the only vestige of our homeland that wasn’t covered up were our churches. Every Armenian on this planet sould understand that should Karabakh fall to Azerbaijan, another genocide will follow. I’ve lost count as to how many genocides we’ve suffered but I would say we’re well into double figures. The original home of the Armenians was in Nakichevan and thanks to ther Azerbaijanis all we have to show for it are a pile of broken cemetery stones.  

  87. Gayane, let us not repeat our old discussions. For me it was natural to adress Anadolu since I feel he was onesided and because am seeking discussions with Turks or people upholding “the Turkish point of view”, not only with Armenians. But let me repeat one question which I have asked before. Why is so imperative to classify me as ONE OF US, rather than ONE OF THEM? Why not simply listen to arguments and make  up your mind? Second question: how will you find out anything about where I belong except by judging my opinions? third: havent you in your personal life come across people who partly agree, partly diagree with you? You revert again and again to the question of WHAT SIDE IS RAGNAR ON. Can this be an indication that you are not fully aware of the complexities of social life? Or do you think that the particular characteristics of the Armenian cause makes this question so pressing? Yes, maybe it is the last point. The feeling of betrayal and new betrayals are common to many Armenians, I believe. I am sorry for this.

  88. No one is glorifying anything, but your and my ancestors played a huge rold in the functioning of the Ottoman Empire, whether you like it or not, from the very top to the very bottom of the social ladder. you may not find it appealing, but it’s the truth. I say this to underscore Armenian ownership in the Ottoman Empire, not to denigrate it.  This is what you are trying to recapture, isn’t it?  If it belonged to us then, it makes no sense to trash it. When you compare how people were living in other societies around the world at that time in history, Armenians were actually doing quite well. Most people on earth lived as slaves or serfs, and did not even own land. THe Armenian case is totally different, and in fact, was better than the vast numbers of Slavs, Chinese, Africans and native Americans who were, in fact, slaves…living and dying in chains…for hundreds of years. Even with all its faults, of which there were many, the Ottoman Empire was better for Armenians than any of those other societies for their subjects and conquered peoples. As a result, Armenians were able to make significant and historic contributions that not only improved overall society, but their own place in it. Of course, by today’s standards of freedom it seems backward and oppressive, but when compared with the life of a serf in Russia or China…it was vastly different.  

  89. this one for the Turkophile agents who, while constantly digging up dirt on Armenia on these pages, conveniently ignore the filth that’s bubbling just below the surface in Turkey.

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-athlete-claims-she-was-hit-for-wearing-shorts-on-public-bus-2011-08-09

    this is how the allegedly tolerant Turks treat even one of their own co-religionists. 
    and this is in Constantinople (aka Istanbul) an arguably Europeanized city.
    as I have said before: the Kemalist experiment has  ended in failure.

    Turks are reverting to their core Islamic roots. Interesting times a’coming.

     

  90. Ragnar.. i really did not want on this path again but i have no choice but to repeat myself.. You know alot how i see you as a whole …and of course I am going to brng the past because the present has not changed since the past… so until there is change everything else remains the same my Norwegian friend…in addition, we had a long discussions on previous topics in the past…

    Here is the problem: anyone can have their own ways of thinking and i don’t have to agree with everyone and vice versa.. the only difference about your argument in regards to ” I don’t have to agree with you on everything” is this::::…… YOU CAN”T BE IN THE MIDDLE when it on ARmenian Genocide.. You CANT play both sides Ragnar which is what you are doing SIR…so stop this diplomatic BS … We are not dealing wth two major sports teams where you can change sides and cheer for one then change your mind and cheer for the other whenever you feel like….you can NOT be WISHY WASHY on this issue Ragnar…   We are dealing with murderes and murdered….. you can’t be friends with the murderer state and then turn around and pretend to be friends with the nation that almost got wiped out.. THAT AIN”T GOING TO FLY .. and that is what you are trying to do and it frustrates me out of my wits… it is not about trying to have a conversation with TUrks and trying to understand both sides.. THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED ALREADY.. and you working in TUrkey and writing your research paper gave you plenty of information about Turks and TUrkey I am sure… so i don’t get your diplomatic approach to Why not simply listen to arguments and make  up your mind  … WE already know what happened.. it is YOU who needs to make up your mind and stick to it.. and so far I have not seen it.. unless that happened and we don’t know about it…

    Can this be an indication that you are not fully aware of the complexities of social life– I not even even in my later 30s Ragnar so no i may not know all the complesities of social life… however, what i DO KNOW is this:.. a man at your age would appreciate the difference between siding with justice vs Turkish denialists who dine and wine you and of course throw the green paper at you.. the mighty dollar….sorry if this hurts but that is what I believe…

    Have a nice day sir..

    Gayane  

  91. Avery….do you mean to say you’d prefer hard boiled Kemalism, with its deep CUP and military undertones to something else?  Be careful what you wish for…because the republican period was anything but wonderful for Armenians, or any other minority in Turkey.   

  92. Avery jan… thanks for the link… I read the story…can’t say I am surprised…

    Interesting time a’coming indeed…

    Gayane  

  93. here is one more (via Asbarez.com): Turks becoming more and more tolerant every day.

    http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2011/08/05/feature-03

    take the time to read the survey in detail and contemplate the percentages: it’s very illuminating.
    this is what would have happened to Artsakhtsi had they lost, and will happen to Artsakhtsi if Azeris ever gain the upper hand. This is why Nakhichevan went from majority Armenian  to 0% Armenian.
     

  94. Gayane, I did not want to go this path again since I never even got you to refer my points of view correctly. But I will repeat once more. Of course the case of the murders and the murdered are central. In addition the case of authorities who, as far as I can ascertain, almost never prosecuted those who committed massacres against your ancestors. This is terrible and unpardonable. And I have really used lot of time to tell Turks that they must relate honestly to their own past. But I stopped answering your posts because in a way you are not doing dialogue, you are doing a monologue. Certainly you cannot negotiate truth with money or negotiate morality with money. By the way my whole professional life I have worked for state money and always I have been criticizing my government regarding my field: immigration and refugees. Maybe you experience me as wishy washy beause you never cared to listen to what I actually say? Isnt that making it easy for yourself. But, my friend Gayane, maybe I am mistaken, both in my views,(in some aspects, I cannot imagine that I will ever change my opinion completely in your direction, as I know you) and maybe I am mistaken in my belief that you are unable to refer my views correctly. We should admit the possibility of mistake, shouldnt we? Only the future can show if we are willing to go on exchanging words.  

  95. Avery….so once again, do you prefer to see the Kemalists or the Erdoganists running Turkey? I’m curious. Neither is optimal, of course, but I think most people would opt for the lesser of two evils.

  96. Karekin, you again? Then lend me you ears.
     
    Re: “[…]your and my ancestors played a huge role in the functioning of the Ottoman Empire.”
    —-As if the Ottoman empire was an Eldorado land that all the native peoples who inhabited the Balkans, Asia Minor, Middle East, and the Arabian Peninsula were longing for millennia for the lousy Seljuk nomads and filthy Ottoman Turks to come invade and colonize them. Underscoring Armenian “ownership” in the Ottoman Empire, if it is your intention, creates a delusion that there was no millennia-old Armenian history or Armenian statehood before Armenia’s colonization by the Ottomans. It also creates a delusion that Armenians actually “owned” something in the Ottoman empire. Aside from small- and medium-size businesses whose revenues were unbearably taxed more than those of the Turks and apart of religious and educational facilities that functioned under restrictions, Armenians owned practically nothing in the Ottoman empire: no representation in the legislature, no representation in the government, no legal protection, no judiciary protection, no physical protection against the murderer government, no security against the maraudering Muslim bands in the rural areas, etc.
     
    Re: “When you compare how people were living in other societies at that time in history, Armenians were actually doing quite well. Most people on earth lived as slaves or serfs, and did not even own land. The Armenian case was better than the vast numbers of Slavs, Chinese, Africans and Native Americans who were, in fact, slaves.”
    —-If we imagine for a split second that “Armenians were doing quite well” despite the lack of physical protection and basic civil rights, it was the result of their wit, industriousness, and circumspection, not the genial treatment by Muslim Turks. All of the colonized peoples in the Ottoman empire—Slavs, Arabs, Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians—were, in fact, slaves and serfs. You cannot be anything other than slave or serf when you are colonized. As simple as that. The situation of Armenians was even worse, because not only were they annihilated as a race, but their historic lands were stolen as well. Although I mourn hundreds of thousands of Christians that were savagely slaughtered by the Turks, at least the bulk of the population was able to survive and major parts of their historic homelands remained intact. Since you so like to parrot (or advance?) the Turkish denialist clichés about the wonderful life of Armenians in the Ottoman empire and make comparisons with Native Americans, then compare the terrible fate Armenians have suffered with that of other nations. It is obvious to everyone, except for you as a Turkish lickspittle, that at least in almost all other cases, the bulk of the population survived and the bulk of their historic homelands remained intact.
     
    Re: “Even with all its faults, the Ottoman Empire was better for Armenians than any of those other societies for their subjects. As a result, Armenians were able to make significant and historic contributions that not only improved overall society, but their own place in it.”
    —-Dead wrong. Even an uneducated look at how imperial Russian and Soviet empires treated Armenians, what basic civil rights were endowed to them, and what major contributions Armenians were able to make in those years, proves that you’re either a complete dilettante or a blind-folded Turkophile.
     
    Re: “Of course, by today’s standards of freedom it seems backward and oppressive”
    —-Thank you for admitting the obvious.
     
    Re: “but when compared with the life of a serf in Russia or China…it was vastly different.”
    —-Of course, it was different. Russian and Chinese serfs, while enduring sufferings and physical abuses, largely preserved their physical existence and on their own homelands.

  97. Ragnar, rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?

  98. I’ll answer your question indirectly, Karekin.
     
     
    The reason I post the links that show the underside of Turkey is to prove that you have malice in your heart towards Armenia.
    In all of your posts I have yet to see one negative regardingTurkey. Even one or two mild rebukes are swamped by an avalanche of praise.
    At the same time, you never lose an opportunity to publicize bad news aboutArmenia, juxtaposed with never ending praise forTurkey.
    I have yet to see a positive sentiment from you towards Armenia. You even manage to put a negative spin on undeniably positive developments.
    That tells me all I need to know. Your posting  behaviour is your calling card. Occasional posts that do not deny the AG show that you are smarter than the other Agents. Read my fictional 30-point MIT guideline in this thread: I know most of the tricks of the trade of  enemy  Agents.
    I graduated with honors from the Armenian KGB’s (at the time) Directorate of Psychological Warfare, Psyops & Counter-Psyops, Disinformation & Counter-Disinformation School of Advanced Studies.
     
     
    Another reason I post negative news about Turkey is to counter you incessant attempts to divide and demoralize our side.
    I want our people to see the rot that exists in Turkey  just below the artificial sheen created by Turks, their friends, and their Agents.
    Many people read  sensationalist headlines  about Armenia and reach fantastic and false conclusions.
    The Forbes disinformation peace is a classic: I demonstrated in this thread, with hard Per-Capita-GDP numbers, obtained from CIA public site,  that their conclusion was bogus and rank disinformation. Why did they publish it ? A psyops campaign against Armenia. I have lived in the US long enough to know that most of mainstream media here serves the interests of the American version of the deep state. Demoralize and divide the world, so that Big Money boys can loot it’s wealth with no resistance and no accounting.
     
    Պղտոր ջրերում ձուկ որսալ:
     
    I know that on a piece of paper 1+1=2. However, human history is full of small groups of men and women overcoming impossible odds with belief in themselves and unshakable determination.
    When a man’s spirit is broken, the rest of body goes with it.
    When a man’s spirit soars, the body follows.
     
    Anyone that doubts this,  I invite to find and carefully study pictures of Astrasktsi warriors in 1988, 1989, 1990,… the years before the tide turned in their/our favour around 1993-1994. Study their faces: there is no hint of fear, or panic, or dejection, or demoralization. There is only calm, almost serene, determination. It is almost eerie. How can these guys be this fearless ? What kind of superhuman genes were planted in these ordinary looking men ? To appreciate what you are looking at, understand this: what is not shown in the pictures are masses of Azeri troops and tanks a couple of clicks away. Yet these guys are standing around and planning as if it’s a bunch of kids with toy guns that are over the hill. As if they are discussing a turkey  shoot (bird hunting). That’s the kind of self confidence and belief in ourselves that we need to propagate to all our people.
     
     
    Back to what I want forTurkey:
     
    I want Turkey to shatter into 3-4 pieces, so it no longer presents a clear and present danger to my homeland and my people, my brothers and sisters that are trying to live there in peace.
    So that  Turkey is no longer an existential threat to Armenia & Artsakh.
    I would very much like for the Turks to go back to their own homeland at the base of the Altai Mountains.
    They don’t belong in the Armenian Highlands. They don’t belong where they are sitting now.
    Their arrival has been an unmitigated disaster for the region at large and Humanity.
    They have done nothing but bring death, destruction and misery to the indigenous people.
    Even today, they go around threatening, threatening to invade, or invading their neighbors. It never stops.
     
     
    Ex: after having invaded the Greek Island of Cyprus 500 years ago and populating it with Turks, after invading it again in 1974, they are now threatening Cyprus again for daring to explore for oil and gas in their own (Cyprus) territorial waters.
     
     
    I realize of course  that 50 million or so ethnic Turks living in Turkey today cannot just vanish into thin air.
    However, a Turkey broken up into 3-4 pieces can be contained and can no longer present a threat to its neighbors, and most importantly to Armenia.
     
     
    So I don’t really care if it ends up being Islamist, Kemalist, Fascist, Communist, whatever.
    As long as it breaks up into manageable pieces. I wish no death or misery to the ordinary Turks and other ethnicities, and wish the breakup takes place with no harm to non-combatants.
     
     
    And contrary to your propaganda, the signs are there that the fissures inherent in that artificially created country are opening up wider.
    The signs are similar to the former Soviet Union. A few years before it disintegrated, the external image of it was a solid monolith, impervious to any force.
    It was an artificial country held together with duct tape: there was no inherent national cohesion, similar to say Germany or France, and of course Armenia.
    Different nationalities were being forced to live together at gunpoint. Same as in the Ottoman Empire. Same as in today’sTurkey.
     
     
    The 25-30 Million Kurds and Zaza can no longer be contained. The more rights they get the more they’ll demand. Independence is only a matter of time. In this day and age suppression will not work either. And of course they are too numerous to be wiped out like Armenians were.
    Once Kurds and Zaza break free, the breakup of Turkey will pick up pace.
    Turkey has many, many enemies. When they go down like the Ottoman Empire, the long knives will come out to carve it up.
    And there are no Germans and Bolsheviks to save the Turks this time from ending up with a rump state.

  99. It’s just a matter of time when Turkey will be carved up between Kurdistan, Greece, and Wilsonian Armenia. I have no doubt in my mind that this scenario is already at play. Turks benefitted inexcusably long from invading, looting, and mass murdering more civilized, cultured, and nobler peoples inhabiting Asia Minor, the Balkans, and the Armenian Plateau. Time to pick up the tab.

  100. Boyajian:       I think we’ve known Ragnar long enough to foretell what he’d have to say even without having to gaze into a crystal ball. I’d venture into predicting his answer or a variation thereof. It was a colossal crime on the part of the Turks (note: no denomination of the crime). The result of forced deportations and mass murders was genocidal, but the genocidal intent of the central Ottoman Turkish authorities is hard to prove. Armenians need to engage in a dialogue with the Turks so Turks can admit the guilt (for what, if the crime is not denominated?) and apologize. Now let me extrapolate this possible response or a variation thereof on the recent killings on the Utoya Island. It was a colossal crime (omitting the name, which is, clearly a heinous terrorist act). The result was homicidal but the intent of Anders Behring Brevik is hard to prove. Instead of taking him to custody, the police and the Norwegian society needed to conduct dialogue with him so he could come forward and apologize for the crime (again, with no specific name). Such a standpoint is just another variation of postponing justice for Armenians, Can we ever imagine that as a result of a dialogue with largely brainwashed Turks on the ratio 10:70 (in millions, representing roughly the population of Armenians and Turks), and knowing too well that no criminal—on the state or individual level—will ever accept the guilt voluntarily, Turks can ever admit the guilt which will expose their nation as the nation of barbarians: mass murderers, torturers, mutilators, children-killers, rapists, looters, and thieves?! This is just another variation at delaying justice for us.

  101. mjm, it’s always good to read your comments.  You’re right of course, based on Ragnar’s previous writing, that he is likely to spare Turkey it’s full responsibility.  But let’s see if he offers anything new.

  102. MJM– We truly missed you…Always a pleasure reading your comments…Well said…:)

    Boyajian jan– Truly missed you too…Can’t get enough of your comments…Well said..:)

    Avery jan– Excellent post… xosq chunem aselu.. got goosebumps.. and I am with you 110%.. 

    It is like the good ol’ days when all three of us where in one of the longest discussion in the AW history involving Ragnar N… to be honest with you, he has not changed and I knew exactly what he would come back with.. he is singing his old song… no surprise there…     

    Ragnar-  actually it is more like YOU are having a monologue with us than me with you.. I don’t see any diologue between you and us.. do you???    oh and we know very well what you won’t agree with me on… according to you there was no Genocide… and I say there WAS a Genocide.. well until you make up your mind whether or not it was a Genocide you will remain the same culprit and denialist… sorry if that hurts…

    Gayane

  103. Boyajian, yes, its a pleasure that you are with us. I was afraid that you would disappear after I told that I am working on a book. But Anahit I have not seen except that there was a “Anahit” in Daily Zaman some time ago. The new thing of course is that I write on a book and I want to say something about my dialogue with Turks and Armenians. Ideally I would like to cite “mjm”, “boyajian”, “gayane” and certainly “Karekin”, but as I said I would ask for your special permission to do so, even if you all have assumed names (maybe you some day will have the self confidence to use your real names….).
    Yes, Gayane maybe I engage in a monologue, too! I have certain ideas that I see no reason to change, I have found no good arguments. But I have other ideas that are changing or being more nuanced. But then of course you have some definite formulas that you want me to adhere to. I am not sure that I will ever comply with your wish. But surely you have met sometimes with people with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?
    Mjm, good to hear from you. Yes, you refer my opinions  reasonably  correctly. No,I am not  certain about what crime, even if we restrict ourself to Talaat’s “confession”. You know his posthumous autobiography in which he confesses that he for political reasons – not to antagonize Turks and Kurds who hated Armenians – abstained from prosecuting people who massacred Armenian deportees. If this is a true picture of his intentions, which it maybe is not. To my mind he here confesses to a crime. Regarding WHAT CRIME, this is a decision for which I have no competence. I am now reading both the Rwandan judgements and some judgements in the Srebrenitsa case, and this is complex. But I feel you want me to say: “Yes, it was genocide” without any qualifications. This is more like saying “I believe in God, but I know very little about him. It is a BELIEF…”. The alternatives are crime against humanity, genocide, war crime, and all divided into “crime”, “abetting crime”, “not hindering crime”, and so on.
    I participated here because I did not like Anadolu’s way of reasoning, so I answered. But if we can find something sensible to discuss, I am always interested.

  104. That’s it, Boyajian.        I mean Ragnar’s response. If through lengthy dialogues with us the guy still sticks to his guns, himself being a Nordmenn not a Turk, what could we expect from his proposed ‘dialogue’ with 70 mln brainwashed Turks representing a murderer unrepentant state about some ‘crime’ and some ‘intent’ or the lack of thereof or some apology for the Turkish crime against humanity (Allies’ term in 1915) and genocide (Lemkin’s and subsequently international term after 1943) that even a Nordmenn shies to admit?

  105. Ehhhh… Ragnar.. same ol’ Ragnar.. nothing has changed and you wonder why we can’t have a dialogue with you?

    You said:   maybe you some day will have the self confidence to use your real names….).
     For your own information.. how do you know if the posters here don’t use their real names, or their initials or abbreviations of their names.. why are you looking to rip some benefits from us for your book? I would not want to be part of your book… knowing you are trying tint and come up with your scientific reasons when you have no connection whats so ever with such subject..this matter is more emotional and common sense than scientific.. but you already know that….

    I have certain ideas that I see no reason to change, I have found no good argumentsThis one sentence tells me great deal.. that YOU definintely were and are engaged in monologue because my friend Avery and Boyajian gave you PLENTY of GOOD ARGUMENTS SIR .. PLENTY.. no denial there but yet you still play your old flute….

    But then of course you have some definite formulas that you want me to adhere to. I am not sure that I will ever comply with your wish. But surely you have met sometimes with people with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?  Yes of course I have a formula just like everyone here on these discussions… and the formula is, you ready? i am sure you NEVER heard of this or read about it.. but i am going to tell you again and again and again and again and again……

    Ottoman Empire= Genocide against my people, Armenians…. 1909-1924= Attempted and half way succeeded of the Annihiliation and Murder of my nation, the Armenian Nation   1915=OTTOMAN TURKISH GENOCIDE OF THE WESTERN AND EASTERN ARMENIANS…   THis is the formula that WILL NEVER CHANGE and as I said numerous times in my past posts.. YOU CAN”T BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD RagnarR.. YOu have to either AGREE OR DISAGREE.. so stop injecting this BS ” But surely you have met sometimes with peoplewith whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?  … This statement of yours does not imply to what we are discussing… There is no ” THERE WAS KIND OF GENOCIDE“…. and that is exactly what you are saying..  

    Gayane
     

  106. True to form.
     
    Ragnar you do not have permission to quote my comments. Not because you and I disagree, but because I view you as someone who has a preconceived agenda he is intent on supporting against any evidence to the contrary.  You long ago informed us that you were writing a book.  Your recent reassertion of this did not scare me away.   If I perceived you to be a fair and honest truth-seeker, I would gladly continue discourse, but since this is not the case, I simply feel we have gone as far as we two can go.
     
    You long ago informed us that you were writing a book.  Your recent assertion of this did not scare me away.  I do not hide behind aliases, I simply choose my confidants and associations judiciously.

  107. No, I will not cite. About your comments, I get curious. But we have been through it so many times. Do you take the fact that I havent changed my mind as a sign that I am not an honest truth seeker, Boyajian? Is that fair? 

  108. My name, to my relief, was not mentioned in the list of potential referral sources that Ragnar Naess intends to use in his upcoming book, but just to be on the safe side…  Ragnar, I join others in not granting permission to use any of my viewpoints in AW in case you intended to do so.
     
    P.S.   BTW, Gor is my real, not pen, name.

  109. Ragnar.. Here is some information from an article on AW written by Kurdish writer on why the Genocide happened… link is also provided for your information..and you tell me there is no scientific reasons for the Genocide to happen.. laughablet to say the least..

    http://armenianweekly.com/2011/08/11/gunaysu-denial/
    Just to give a few statistics to remind the readers what the extermination of Christian trade and business people meant for the national economy of the Ottoman Empire, I will once more quote from Confiscation and Destruction: “Commerce in the interior was heavily Armenian in the east (and Greek in the west), even though Turks were also involved in domestic trade. For example, in 1884, of the 110 merchants in the north-eastern provincial capital Trabzon, for domestic and international trade a vital port city, 40 were Armenian and 42, Pontic Greek. According to a 1913 study on Anatolia by the Armenian parliamentarian and writer Krikor Zohrab, of the 166 importers, 141 were Armenians and 13, Turks. Of the 9,800 shopowners and craftsmen, 6,800 were Armenians and 2,550, Turks; of the 150 exporters, 127 were Armenians and 23 Turks; of the 153 industrialists, 130 were Armenians and 20 were Turks; and finally, of the 37 bankers, 32 were Armenians. In the six eastern provinces, 32 Armenian moneylenders plied their trade versus only 5 Turkish ones. On the eve of the genocide, in early 1915, of the 264 Ottoman industrial establishments, only 42 belonged to Muslims and 172 to non-Muslims.” 5
    These figures alone indicate the extent of economic destruction willfully carried out by the Ottoman government, which put the country’s development back a century—a fact overlooked by the heated antagonists of imperialism in Turkey who are, of course, against nationalism but are unable to look and see beyond the horizon of Turkish nationalism.

  110. Avery jan, Your post above to Karekin it’s not just a good post but an EXCELLENT ONE!!!!  You spoke exactly my heart and soul.  Throughout my life I have been saying the same things you said it above that we have to give heart, inspiration to our people for survival, for fighting for our country and for our lands that has been homelands for Armenians from time immemorial.  Do you know why those freedom fighters in Artsakh had a serene and content look on them?  Because they were fighting for a great cause; because they fought with their hearts and souls for their sweet lands that belonged to them as a legacy left from their forefathers.  They had that unafraid look upon themselves, because of national pride, because of a great cause (the cause of survival as a nation, for their wives pride, and for their children, the future generation of Armenians).  And because they knew their history very well and because they fought for what the enemy the Turks and the Azeris did to them, to their wives, their sisters and their children.  Unlike the Turks and the Azeris that gobbled other peoples’ lands *our lands* that didn’t belong to them, those lands were not theirs to begin with and they have no real cause to fight except for greed, for stealing, for looting and for annihilating for the sake of annihilation.  For us however, our lands is like “Neshxar”, the same way our Ararad Mountain is, «Մեր հողերէը Նշխարի նման սուրբ են մեզ համար, Մեր սուրբ Արարատ լեռան պէս».  Those freedom fighters fought to die happily; but for a great cause, that is the cause of both survival and for the right of their anscestral homeland, for the future of their children and the generations that will come after them, after us.  When you have a good cause and a reason to die, then you fight with all your might, with all your heart, and you are no longer afraid of dying to give your life for your rights, the right of your own homeland Armenia for Armenians.  That is why I more than agree with you as I have always thought out and said it to my compatriots all my life whenever I could, that we always have to give great heart and encouragement to our people and never discourage them of ourselves, of our great history and for what we have and still stand for.  NEVER.  Otherwise that person is not our friend but our enemy, and Karekin is a Turkophile and not the friend of Armenians.  I felt it and I knew that right away and the same time you did also.

    As for your second wish about Turkey my friend, you know that song, «Մօտ է գարունը շուտով կը բացուի»:

  111. Gayane, with all due respect I humbly suggest that you suspend this comment exchange business with Ragnar. I hoped that the ugly terrorist act in his homeland would somewhat shift his mind towards more understanding of our stance on the genocide and the premeditated intent of the murderers. I’m sorry to say it didn’t. Imagine if there were no video shootings of Anders Behring Brevik’s assassinations and no “2083: A European Declaration of Independence’ that he’d authored, what would the police determine after arrival at the site? Ragnar’s position is, unfortunately, a variation of Turkish denialism. He won’t change even if the Storting adopts recognition of the Armenian Genocide on behalf of the people of Norway. We’d better concentrate our efforts on more important events, activities, and individuals. Unless you still have hope, of course…

  112. Ragnar, it may or may not be fair.  Time will tell.  You are free to believe what you like.  I simply find it inconceivable that we could look at the same body of evidence and not conclude that a barbaric genocide was committed by Turks against Armenians that remains unpunished.   Turkey teaches false history to its students, carries racist laws on its books and fosters a distorted image of Armenians to its public.  These are present day continuations of the xenophobic mindset that fueled the genocide in the first place.   Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.  The fact that the powers that be find it convenient to look the other way for 96 years doesn’t change the magnitude of the original crime, nor Turkey’s culpability for it.  The fact that you persist in your campaign to spare Turkey the full weight of this crime, is suspect to me, and suggests that you are not fair, nor honest in your efforts.  No offense intended; just my opinion. 
     
     

  113. Dear Avery, Thanks to you it warms our hearts to have such a brilliant and a patriotic Armenian to have amongst us and when we need it most.  Thanks for being you and thanks for being here!

  114. Mjm jan.. I guess I did have hope…but.. I hate to say this but you are right.. Ragnar in his senior years continues his persuit of “Turkey good”  “Armenians are fool of hot air.. because who said there was Genocide”… Basically there is a saying in Armenian.. ” Inqa ira Eshna Qshum”…. I understand your point and I will not entertain Ragnar’s BS… He has plenty of factual data in detail to change his twisted mind.. It is up to him if he wants to step into the righteousness side of things…

    Gor jan- good idea..:) You are one of the most valuable contributor and i am sure Ragnar will get a sniff of that as well sooner or later…

  115. Boyajian,
    as you maybe have noticed I have respect for your judgements , willingness to debate and willingsness to look at your own ideas with a critical perspective. However, sometimes you lapse into facile declarations – as we all do, myself included. However, I cannot take a “time will show” statement as relevant here. You said that you doubted that I was a sincere truth seeker, but that is something relating to me today, not for the future to show. I does not make sense. Of course I am hurt by this, of course I will wonder if it is true, as we all should. As one of you said, it is not easy to admit something which you have used years of your life to disprove. — About a barbaric genocide – we have been through this before. When I use loaded expressions like “racism” or “genocide” or “democracy”, I always add some qualifications. This is how we distinguish rhetorics from informed statements. In my drafts I very clearly say that genocide was perpetrated by the Turks against the Armenians, but this kind of statement never stands alone. (This by the way is why I feel you are doing monologue, Gayane, because you end up with the word “genocode” never botheri9ng to cite me on my qualifications. You make it too easy for yourself) If  you are doing a therapy you always ask for concretizations and clarifications. “Genocide” is a juridical term, a research term and a political term. I never say yes to slogans.  – And then it is very strange that  you should take my qualifications as a sign of untrustworthyness. In a way you tie yourself to the slogans, not the analysis. But I dismiss this as a facile expression on your part, maybe out of a feeling of loyalty to your fellow Armenians. That you do facile lapses is evident to me because you applaud Avery’s idea of the need to partition Turkey, while you expressed the wish to discuss with honest Turks when we discussed the demonstration the youths made in the Sourp Khatch. But if you and Avery broadcast your ideas on the partition of Turkey, and you get support among Armenians you can say good by to this kind of discussion with honest Turks. This was a lapse, wasnt it? I cannot interpret it in another way. 

  116. can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism. 

  117. “Genocide” is a juridical term, a research term and a political term. I never say yes to slogans.”
     
    ‘Genocide’ is not a slogan. Does it remotely resemble Marx’s “Proletarians of all countries, unite!”? It is first and foremost a linguistic term coined to depict the essence of a deliberate killing of a race, which came about as a result of serious academic research. In 1933 Raphael Lemkin wrote a proposal on the ‘crime of barbarity’ to be presented to the Legal Council of the League of Nations in Madrid. This was his first formal attempt at creating a law against what he would later call ‘genocide’. The concept originated in his youth when he first heard of the Ottoman government’s mass killings of its Christian Armenian population during the WWI. Lemkin’s idea of genocide then developed from a linguistic term onto a definition of an offense against humanity and international law.

    “I became interested in genocide because it happened so many times. First to the Armenians, then after the Armenians, Hitler took action.” – Raphael Lemkin
     

  118. Ragnar, your criticism of me has validity: I am loyal to other Armenians and look disparagingly on those who would deprive Armenians even further of a long awaited compensation of what they suffered at the hands of Turks. 
    It may appear contradictory when I support those who dream of land reparation from Turkey, while also advocating dialogue with Turks.  To me this is not a lapse.  It comes from a deeply felt wish to ‘rebalance’ and find just resolution for the near annihilation of a people who wanted nothing more than to live with dignity as equals among their neighbors on the land their forefathers tended for thousands of years.  This may sound rhetorical and I may be naive, but I believe that one can hope for the former in the long run, while sincerely pursuing the latter in the present.  Dialogue with Turks is important as an avenue to confront prejudices and misinformation on both sides.  But dialogue alone is not the goal; it is a path along the road to justice.   And justice to me and you is understood quite differently.  That is the crux  of our problem.  I have an emotional investment in this dilemma, while you appear to be engaged in an historical research project.  I wish you luck and enlightenment on your path.
     
    As to this question:  can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism. 
     
    Perhaps this is overly simplistic and won’t satisfy your question, but I am not an historian or researcher, so will put it this way: 
     
    If you steal from me and hurt my family and never apologize or compensate my loss and on top of that deny your guilt and carry out a campaign that implies that I brought it all upon myself, than I will not trust you and will experience your lack of contrition as a potential future threat.  Then, when your cousin begins attacking my family members, and you stand by offering no assistance, only to later advocate for the cousin who attacked us, I will assume you want my complete destruction and to divide the spoils amongst yourself and your cousin.
     
    Finally, Gor has tried to broaden your understanding of the term genocide with his comment above.  I hope you will read it carefully.  Genocide was a term coined by a pioneering humanist amongst us to shed light on a barbaric act and to assist in the prosecution of such acts.  It was not coined simply to apathetically describe an event.

  119. I promised that I will not entertain you and I intend to do so…but to finish my thought….Ragnar.. like I said… you are not someone we can have dialogue with so I will not waste my time and energy to make you understand that you are fake.. no matter how much academic words you throw at us..

    By you using me as a bait for your conspiracy of words is not welcomed sorry.. you know very well that many of us including MJM, Avery, Boyajian and Gor provided you plenty of evidence or qualifications AS YOU put it.. you have enough of evidence to prove your thought process wrong… why you keep insisting on that same old broken radio… you can’t twist things .. you have been exposed already …. There is nothing else I can tell you to make you understand… have a wonderful dialogue with your TUrkish denialists.. I am sure they will love you …..if not already …..but don’t seek dialogue here when you can’t even express a simple fact: GENOCIDE did happen no matter how many qualitifications your Turkish denialists and yourself try to attach to the word… Aint’ going to work Ragnar.. 

    Take Care…

    Gayane     

  120. “Can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.”
     
    I can. For references, do a simple Google search using the key words highlighted in the black face below.
     
    Turkey remains a threat to Armenians because:
     
    (a)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that refuses to establish diplomatic and economic relations with Armenia. Non-establishment of diplomatic and economic relations with a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sign of threat;
    (b)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that imposed a blockade on the movement of people, services, and goods with Armenia. Imposition of a blockade of a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sheer demonstration of a threat;
    (c)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that refuses to open the borders with Armenia. Keeping the borders closed with a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sign of threat;
    (d)Turkey explicitly—militarily, politically, diplomatically, and through an economic blockade—supported its Turkic extension, newly-minted ‘Azerbaijan’, in waging war against Artsakh as in the early 1990s, thus posing a national security threat to Artsakh and Armenia. And continues to support Azerbaijan against Armenia and Artsakh politically, diplomatically, and through an economic blockade;
    (e)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region whose president in the early 1990s made an explicit threat to drop ‘a couple of bombs’ across the border (read: Armenia);
    (f)Turkey occupied almost half of the sovereign UN member-state of Cyprus as a result of an explicit military invasion in 1974 thus posing a threat to broader regional security;
    (g)Turkey violated state borders of the sovereign state of Iraq in the mid-2000s and advanced deep into the Iraqi territory until stopped by the US troops;
    (h)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that now threatens the sovereign state of Syria with a possibility of invasion;
    (i)Turkey continues to suppress and mass murder Kurds and Zaza thus violating human rights and the rights of the minorities;
    (j)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that has problems with virtually all of its neighbors, because of the earlier invasions of the Seljuks, colonization of indigenous native peoples by the Ottomans, and mass physical extermination of millions of native Christians and destruction or Turkification of their civilizational achievements;
    (k)Turkey continues to deny genocides of Greeks, Assyrians, and most heinously, the Armenians thus preventing the country’s transformation into an open society and establishment of good-neighborly relations with the surrounding nation-states;
    (l)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that kills, imprisons, or deports all those activists who dare to speak the truth about the Armenian genocide;
    (m)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region whose neurasthenic prime minister in the 21st century makes racist remarks about the restoring the past glories of the Ottoman empire and an aspiration to be a voice for the Middle Eastern region and the Balkans and Turkic Muslims.

  121. Avery….you’ve proven nothing! I am not writing propaganda, nor am I either antagonistic or showing any ‘malice’ towards Armenia or Armenians. Quite the contrary, if you can read the English language.  However, patting yourself on the back, blathering nationalistic slogans and unrealistic fantasies just so you can get accolades from the peanut gallery do not negate the realities on the ground. Almost every country within a few hundred miles of the Armenian border is in some sort of chaos, no doubt foreign inspired. If, for some reason, there is a conflagration that engulfs the region, the chances that Armenia will emerge either unscathed or intact are rather remote.  That is the real danger looming on the horizon. If you think anyone, whether it’s Turks, or Kurds or Azeris or Georgians or Russians or Americans are going to reach out and help Armenia, think again. None of them are helping now…and under duress, they will become even more unfriendly. So, blather on, but I prefer to stick to reality. 

     

  122. Karekin- you have crossed the line.. WHO ARE YOU to call us a peanut gallery??? You better bite your tongue or else you REALLY true colors are bursting out; hence validating Avery’s very well put description of you… yes we already know you are a realist and not a nationalist… you pretty much are worst than a denialist Turk if you ask me.. you are not promoting what is needed Karekin.. the way you are proposing is actually UNREALISTIC.. so i guess you are not really a realist… but a dreamer…

    Gor jan– BRILLIANT.. thank you for the post…

    Boyajian jan– welll thought out comment to Ragnar… 

    Gayane  

  123. re: ‘Avery….you’ve proven nothing! I am not writing propaganda, nor am I either antagonistic or showing any ‘malice’ towards Armenia or Armenians’
     Karekin: I have, you are, you are, and you are.
     
    re: ‘, if you can read the English language’
    I can read and understand the English language well enough to see through the fog of your propaganda.
     
    re: ‘, patting yourself on the back, blathering nationalistic slogans and unrealistic fantasies just so you can get accolades from the peanut gallery do not negate the realities on the ground.’
    None of my blathering has the aim of getting accolades from anyone.
    And when you say ‘peanut gallery’ , whom are you specifically referring to ? Why don’t you list the names  – so that they can stop giving me accolades.
     
     
    The rest of the blathering in your post has been answered multiple times by me and others on these pages.
     
     
    You asked a question above,
     
     [‘Karekin
    August 10, 2011
    Avery….so once again, do you prefer to see the Kemalists or the Erdoganists running Turkey? I’m curious. Neither is optimal, of course, but I think most people would opt for the lesser of two evils.’]
     
     
    And I answered. Your hysterical reaction to a well thought out , reasonable post is telling.

  124. Karekin,    —-I think the major reason (and I agree there may be others, as Avery alludes to) of your malice towards Armenia and Armenians is of psychological nature. I have no intention nor am I trained to pchycoanalyze you, but you must agree that comments of a poster tell us a bit about his or her character traits. I came to believe that your inner self is hen-hearted, obsequious, and self-depreciating. Hence, your incessant negatives regarding Armenia. In your mind, a smaller state must be subservient to mightier ones. In your mind an oppressed and nearly exterminated people must be hen-hearted in front of the mightier peoples. In your mind, a quest for justice by a smaller nation is an unrealistic fantasy because of the size of a mightier neighbor. These are not the traits of a brave person, I’m sorry to say. I can’t put it better than Avery: “When a man’s spirit is broken, the rest of body goes with it. When a man’s spirit soars, the body follows.” People are often pressured in order to succumb to the wills of mightier individuals or organizations. Although they suffer a lot, whoever manages not to give up, comes out victorious at the end. “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” – Eternally genius words by Mahatma Gandhi. Give them a thought…

  125. in my blatherings above, I made mention of  the superhuman demeanor of Armenian Men Warriors of Artsakh. What I did not mention is the secret ingredient.

    from Seervart’s post:

    “… for their wives pride, and for their children, …”

    What was the secret ingredient ? it was the Armenian Women standing 1 meter behind their men with their children.
    With their wives and children right behind them, no Armenian warrior could or would flinch.

    http://laviesouffrante.tumblr.com/post/4936642526/106-year-old-armenian-woman-guarding-her-house

    I have linked the famous picture of the Armenian grandmother with an AK-47.
    Please study her eyes. Soak in the fierce determination to live free.  And then tell me if these people have not earned the right, a thousand times over, to live in peace as Armenians on their ancestral land.
    Thousands of Armenian women in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s stood behind their men  with AK-47s and RPGs to take on the invaders when their men fell in battle.

    Is there anything more to be said about our people ?
    (Avery’s one-man-peanut-gallery dispensing unsolicited accolades to Armenian women.) 

  126. Avery jan… Bravo my friend….

    Karo jan-Excellent..

    I am part of the peanut gallery and I am PROUD… :) SO you don”t insult me with such names Karekin….. I rather be part of the peanut gallery then a Turkopile or a denialist…

    Gayane     

  127. Bravo Gor, your post is very well thought out and brilliant!

    Bravo Boyajian, I was touched by your following sentence and it is the essence of your whole being, your whole psyche that a Ragnar would never understand it.
    “I have an emotional investment in this dilemma, while you appear to be engaged in an historical research project“.
    There are however other compassionate Turks that understand your comlete being, only if: A) they view the Armenian Genocide with the compassion of the human tragedy and the human waste that have occurred, and B) with the compassion and understanding that after such a magnitude of a tragedy some kind of reparation must be given back to the heirs of this wonderful race.

  128. Avery, I saved that wonderful Armenian mamig’s picture and I will print and post it on my wall.  If I had to die, I would rather die against the tatar mob exactly like her, holding an AK-47 in my arms.  I can’t get over her frightful but determined eyes.  Indeed our women don’t fall much behind our men.  We are made from the same ingredient my dear, aren’t we?  The very same Armenian women and children were also fighting next to their brave men in May 28, 1918.  How else we could have won a war against the huge armies of Turkey right after the Armenian Genocide of 1915?  The very same was repeated in the 1990’s Artsakh war.  We are made of the same fabric; our brave men, women and children, aren’t we Avery? 

    Thanks for your wonderful post and picture my compatriot.

  129. Gor
    I agree with you that the term has a certain history, being coined by Lemkin and developed in his proposal for a juridical term based on his “Axis rule”. The general use of the term is “to kill or destroy a people”. So I was inaccurate. What I have in mind is that words acquire the characteristic of a slogan by a certain type of usage. It is a term that horrifies and indicts, and we sometimes use it in short sentences and without definition or clarification. We use language in this way all the time, and there is in itself nothing wrong with it, to my mind. But I feel that this usage has a problematic aspect if one does not take heed: if you use the word in this way (using the term without definition and clarification) you are very much dependent on how the receiver interprets it. For this reason this slogan-like usage stands in contrast to the usage one should have in therapies, research, law and the like. In this sense the term genocide is also a slogan WHEN USED IN A CERTAIN WAY. This is also my criticism of Gayane. She never noticed that I say “yes, it was genocide if you use the reasoning of the ICTJ as a yardstick, but is is much more uncertain if we imagine a court case in which the handling of ICC and the tribunals for Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, and apply the yardsticks used here to the Armenian case.
    (By the way, I am still wondering about ther juridical term presumption and the use of this term to assign the burden of proof to the Turks when they say that it was NOT genocide. I believe it was you that launched this idea?)
     

  130. Ragnar, I believe you are overly concerned with how Turkish receivers interpret our words.  Of course one should try to communicate in a way that helps others to more easily receive your message accurately.  But to sugar coat your words, at times, risks losing the essence of the message.  Some truths are just hard to swallow.  Genocide is a powerful word for a reason.  It is intended to convey the occurrence of a horrible event that humans collectively condemn.  We all abhor it; even the perpetrators.
     
    What is more important: dialogue or justice?   Yes, both are important, and the first can help lead to the second, but dialogue without the goal of fairness becomes an empty exercise. 

  131. Karo….it’s always interesting to see and read some people’s knee-jerk reactions and pop psychological analyses, because they are 1) entertaining and 2) always wrong in their interpretations. If you or anyone else has ever been in a court of law, you should know very well that it is rare for justice to be served and for truth to prevail.  In most cases, the final judgments rendered often have little to do with hard facts.  More usual, cases are decided based on who presents the best case and who offers the most coherent argument. My point, as always, is that while Armenians have the facts on their side, it is the delivery and presentation of these facts that gets in the way of getting a positive verdict. Now, Mark Geragos seems to do an amazing job and delivering facts and information that results in positive judgments for his clients. As I’ve been very blunt about before, if we want to have any hope in the future, it is not about blathering slogans or fantasies before a world audience, it must be about presenting the best argument on our own behalf, and frankly, Armenians have fallen short on that level. When you add to it the general anti-Armenian sentiment that seems to be all pervasive in diplomatic circles, Armenia cannot afford to have bungling idiots presenting its case, because that is not how to win. I want Armenia and Armenians to win, more than anything else, but what I’ve seen along the way leaves me underwhelmed and disappointed. So, in the face of such losses, Armenians clearly have to come up with a smarter strategy.  Whining and complaining is not enough to win, and neither is having all the facts. Presenting an argument that cannot fail is the way to go, and if that also entails negotiating a settlement, then do it. When you have zero after 95 years, then its better to get something….even if it’s not 100% of what you want…because it’s alot better than zero. 

  132. I have no clue what ‘idea’ you’re talking about, ragnar naess, therefore, it was not me who launched something I have no idea about.
     
    As for ‘slogan-not slogan’ dichotomy introduced by you, Boyajian gave you an exemplary and exhaustive reply. If you’re more concerned with definition and clarification than with the first-hand experiences of the survivors, witness accounts, official dispatches, courts martial verdicts, and the conclusions of the prevailing majority of the genocide scholars, historians, and professional associations, then re-read the definition as in the 1948 UN Convention.
     
    By the way, the general use of the term ‘genocide’ is not exactly “to kill or destroy a people”. It is “to kill a race: genos not demos, (Gr.)

  133. Ragnar- NICE TRY…..You think I forgot what you said and you did not say.. here is what you said many times over… IN DIFFERENT VERSIONS i might add but with the same meaning..after exhausting comment after comment… your thought process is this…”””””” There may be a Genocide BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTt….”” You see that big BUT… yes you represent that BIG BUT… i told you gazillions times… THERE IS NOT BUT… when it comes to Genocide… if you have not had any clarification and definition of what Genocide means and stands for, then obviously you are not doing a great job educating yourselves as you stated in the past….are you???  So your critizism about me really no skin off my nose sir…

  134. Karekin- YOU should not talk.. you said…
    In most cases, the final judgments rendered often have little to do with hard facts.  More usual, cases are decided based on who presents the best case and who offers the most coherent argument

    This is such a “makes sense” statement but if we HAVE YOU or people like you to present the case for the Armenian people, we FOR SURE will not win… so why don’t you do what you preach… arten im nerveri vra es azdum du gites che????

  135. Karekin– DU QO NUYN ESHNES QSHUM… Did we not give you a lengthy response about how far we came in the last few years BECAUSE OF OUR steadfeast fight, and perserverance??? You sound like a broken radio because you continue to write your BS about
    When you have zero after 95 years, then its better to get something….even if it’s not 100% of what you want…because it’s alot better than zero

    This statement is wrong in so many levels that I can’t express how embarassed I am for you and for your ill mannerism with everyone here… amota amot…

    Gayane

  136.  Boyajian, you say: Ragnar, your criticism of me has validity: I am loyal to other Armenians and look disparagingly on those who would deprive Armenians even further of a long awaited compensation of what they suffered at the hands of Turks. Comment: But your comment on Avery’s idea of partitioning of  Turkey was a kind of applause, of course very short (“you are a true patriot” wasn’t it?). And the case for a land reparation (which you mention now)  is very different from supporting the idea of PARTITION of Turkey. Now I spoke about getting in the position of discussing with Turks who really want to go into the question.  Possibly they will discuss land reparation, but partition? Hardly. About my motive you are very mistaken. The historical research is part of my wholistic endeavor which includes research and solidarity work and activism. If I was a mere researcher I would have worked at the University, publishing things, not distributing leaflets to Norwegian tourists going to Turkey or mobilizing Turks to go and listen to the lecture of the genocide researcher Bloxham. You are forgetting our earlier discussions and what I told about myself. I also have an emotional commitment and ethical commitment–otherwise I would not care – but of course is has an other basis than yours. – – Gayane, I see we are not understanding each other. I have not made myself understood, I will try again.

  137. Ragnar, you want me to acknowledge that partition and land reparation are not the same thing.  I do.
    But I also acknowledge that the thought of parts of present day Turkey being returned to various indigenous groups of Asia Minor is quite pleasing.  It is appalling to me that Turkey continues to benefit from murder and theft, denial and distortion of history, and manipulation of my government.  I don’t wish death and destruction on any Turks, but I do long for Mt. Ararat to bear her historic name on world maps, for hidden Armenians to come out of the shadows and for Turkey to admit the truth and offer compensation.
     
    Now, please stop dissecting my words.   I readily admit that emotion and loyalty to ‘my own kind’ come into play for me.  I am human after all.  But I am not the issue.  Justice is.  
     
    About your motives:   I don’t know you and don’t know your motives, but I develop an impression from what you write here and what I hear you say (your participation with known genocide denier Justin McCarthy in a forum he moderated in Utah).  You consistently offend me with your concern for Turkish sensibilities while glossing over the fact that Turkey has gotten away with murder!
     
    Leaflets to Norwegians, urging Turks to go hear Bloxham; these are good things.  Confusing, too.  I still don’t understand your goal in visiting this site.  If you are merely fishing for material for a book to feather your cap, I am not interested.  Because you are not the issue, either.
    Justice is.

  138. Ragnar

    I would love to exchange views and present the hard facts here on these pages but the editor removes the non Armenian comments very often. This is the Armenian freedom of expression but the same editor whines about freedom of expression constantly in turkey. By the way, you should feel absulately free to use any comments made on these pages. It sounds weird to ask for their permission and more peculiar one was the posters reply. If somebody makes a statemant on tv and if you want to use that statement, would you ask pemission? It is the same thing. They have already  publicized their statements So hard luck to them. If you had a private meeting or interview with these guys. Yes you must ask for their permission but not here

  139. This post is a retort to this:
    [“But if you and Avery broadcast your ideas on the partition of Turkey, and you get support among Armenians you can say good by to this kind of discussion with honest Turks.
     This was a lapse, wasnt it? I cannot interpret it in another way. 
    can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.]  (addressing Gayane)
     
    [“But your comment on Avery’s idea of partitioning of  Turkey was a kind of applause, of course very short (“you are a true patriot” wasn’t it?)”] (addressing  Boyajian)
     
    I have no desire to debate the Prof in an endless chain of vacuous posts, which essentially boil down to an overextended version of Clinton’s infamous “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”
     
    However, since two friends – Gayane and Boyajian – were criticized on my account, I will engage for this one occasion.
     
    On the partition of Turkey.
     
    Question: What’s wrong with Turkey breaking up into 3-4 pieces ?
    Don’t Kurds and Zaza have the God given right to live as Kurds, speak Kurdish without being jailed or killed ?
    Don’t the hidden-Armenians have the God given right to live openly  as Armenians  without the threat of being killed ?
    Don’t other ethnicities and religious minorities have the God given right not to be forced to call themselves ‘Turks’ and hide their true identity ?
    What’s so sacred about Turkey in your mind ? Is it because you have an acknowledged bias towards Turks ?
    You have visited/lived inTurkey, have many Turk friends ?
     
     
    Did you similarly lament when Yugoslavia was broken up?
    Did you similarly lament when USSR was broken up?
    Did you lament or celebrate the breakup of Sudan into 2 parts ? South Sudanese certainly celebrated.
    The artificial country of Czechoslovakia peacefully split into Czech Republic and Slovakia: Czecks and Slovaks are doing well and quite happy living separately as friendly neighbors.
    French Canadian minority in Quebec narrowly chose to remain part of Canada after a peaceful, popular referendum. That’s fine too.
    What about the breakup of the Ottoman Empire? How many of the nationalities that were under its yoke you think would want to go back to living as serfs and 2nd class citizens ?
     
     
    Ethnic Turks are only about 50% of Turkey: why should they have the right to tell other ethnicities how to live, what language to speak, what names to have?
    Why should invaders from far away lands have the right to tell the indigenous people what to call themselves, what language to speak, what God to worship ?
    The West broke-up Yugoslavia: why not Turkey? Who decided that  Turks are special ?
    Why shouldn’t Kurds, Zaza, and other minorities have the right to secede from Turks ?
     
    Who decided that territorial integrity is superior to self-determination of Human Beings ?

    Why should the State, a creation of arguably fallible humans, have superior rights to that of what God created – Human Beings ?
     
    And finally, in all my posts wishing for the breakup of Turkey never have I advocated for any violence by Armenians or RoA against Turks.
    My contention is that Turkey will break up due to its inherent internal pressures, the same mechanisms that break up all artificial countries held together at gunpoint. Not due to any action by of Armenians.
    And I have specifically stated I wish no harm to come to ordinary Turks – which seems to escape the notice of the same people that readily notice the word ‘breakup’.
     
     
    It has been said  the best thing that happened to Germany and Japan is that their nationalistic, aggressive, murderous regimes were massively defeated.
    Their peoples experienced a level of death and destruction unknown in their history.
    They realized for the first time in their respective histories what their insane predecessors had been doing to others.
    Both Germans and Japanese became completely changed peoples after WW2.
    Both Germany and Japan are peaceful, wealthy, happy nations now. Their industriousness and ingenuity – which was previously used to create death machines – is now used to create first rate consumer and industrial products admired and used throughout the world.
     
     
    When Turkey lets go of the peoples they are holding by force, ethnic Turks will be much  better off.
    Ethnic Turks will live happier lives devoid of aggression and violence.
    Kurds and Zaza will be happier in their own countries.
    Armenians living  in an Armenia with access to the Black Sea will be a lot wealthier and happier: wealthy, content, happy people don’t go looking for a fight.
    Turkey is a huge country, sparsely populated. Western Armenia (Eastern Turkey) has hardly been developed: Turks have practically abandoned it.  There is absolutely no need for them to hold on to occupied Western Armenia, other than hubris and hatred towards Armenia and Armenians. Their security will not be threatened by letting go.  On the contrary, a larger, more secure Armenia will enhance Turks’ security – for obvious reasons.
     
     
    The whole region will be transformed for the better. It will be no different than the peaceful, prosperous Western Europe. Maybe even better.
     
     
    And finally, Gor produced an extensive list of threats in his Aug 12 retort to the Prof.
    I will add just one item, that is quite appropriate, given that Turks and their Turkphile friends find fault in  my desire for Turkey to shatter into 3-4 pieces.
     

    Here is a passage from this hyperlink : http://www.panarmenian.net/eng/world/news/24018/
     
    [“Azerbaijan’s joy is our joy, Azerbaijan’s grief is our grief. Once, historical processes divided Azerbaijan and Turkey and there was a border between us. Now we have good possibilities and we should use them in toto. We are the architects of our future,” Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan said in Baku.] (emphasis mine)
    What do you think that sentence means? Is it anything other than  “our (Turkish) goal is to re-unite the borders of Azerbaijan and Turkey”.
    Q: How do you unite the borders of Azerbaijan and Turkey with Armenia
    being in the way ?
    A: You don’t; you cut Armenia in half or eliminate it altogether.

     
     
     

  140. re: I would love to exchange views and present the hard facts here on these pages”
    Monastras, why don’t you and Mr. Ragnar Naess exchange views and present hard facts on the comments forum of TodaysZaman ?
    They have a very permissive policy towards Anti-Armenian posts, so you guys can have a hate-fest without interference from the moderator of AW. We can come and visit regularly and follow the debate there.
     
    re: This is the Armenian freedom of expression but the same editor whines about freedom of expression constantly in turkey.”
    Many Turks, including yourself, keep bringing the ‘freedom of expression’ canard over and over again, so I’ll try to explain again.
     
    Freedom of Expression, Censorship and such  are terms used for STATEs. There is no freedom of expression for a PRIVATE enterprise.
    They can allow or disallow any and all comments: you and I have no legal right to post. It’s a privilege extended to the public by the private owners of AW for whatever reason they have.
    They can withdraw that privilege anytime for any reason  without prior notice.
     
    I post @TodaysZaman and @Hurriyet frequently.
    Most of my posts to Zaman are published. Some are not.
    Some of my posts to Hurriyet are published. Most are not.
    (guess which posts do not get published)
     
     
    And finally, I asked  you (on these pages) about a certain post of yours  @ Hurriyet several times, which you ignored.
    One reason that AW moderators remove comments by some non-Armenians may be they do not wish to give a platform to Denialists to use an Armenian publication to spread Denialist, Anti-Armenian hate-speech. Is that unreasonable ?
     
    He is what you posted @Hurriyet:
     
    [Guest – Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust]

  141. Oh look… we have an attorney amongst us ladies and gentlemen.. Monastras… HOOORAYYYYYYYYYYYYY….

    Sir.. please don’t talk like everyone should act like Ottoman govt where they TAKE TAKE TAKE TAKE without asking…..so your plead to Ragnar to take without asking is pretty much a barbaric mannerism.. but then again I am not surprised to hear something like that from a denialist such as yourself…

    these forums are public forums.. and everything here is for that purpose ONLY. for private matter such as for a research or for a book, that is another matter… no one has our consent to do so…..I did not know you have a law degree and you were ointed to be the leader of your pack to dictate Ragnar what to do.. laughable to say the least….

    Gayane

  142. Avery
    with all respect, you are very far from reality. first, of course anybody may hold the view that Turkey should be partitioned. I am for freedom of thought even the most farfetched ones. My point was that if you want to discuss with Turks, you’ll have to choose. Boyajian has earlier expressed the opinion that she wants to discuss with honest Turks. Then you musnt start by launching the idea that Turkey should be divided. That is  IF you want to discuss with Turks, but if you find a pleasure just in launching this idea in AW, what should I say? OK, go on!!– But what you suggest is extremely farfetched. To take the Turkish Kurds: the majority of them live outside the Kurdish core areas. Actually some of the right wing Turks suggested some years ago: YES, give them the south eastern vilayets (for which they will also compete with the Armenians), provinces that are very poor. Leave your shops and businesses in the cities! Of course the Kurds will say no to this, it was only in the first years of PKK’s existence that they had an independent Kurdistan in theor programme. The Zaza is a language group in rapid decline, they are not an ethnic group. the Alevis are spread over the whole country and are wise anough not to repeat the previous mistakes of the Armenians. These groups want a more democratic Turkey. Further you dont seem to realize that what Turkey did in invading Cyprus is from the perspective of international law the same as Armenia did when they invaded – or “freed” – Artsakh. The world community does not approve of it. The Turkish incursions into Irak in order to attack guerilla bases is condemned as a sake of form, but both Syria and Iran are tacitly agreeing. All cpoutries wpould do the same when a neioghbour country cannot protect its borders. So your opinions on Turkey are extremely unbalanced and far fetched. But you are free to voice them here. What I found surprising was that Boyajian applauded you as a patriot. But the she gives more or less a psychological explanation for it. It deals with one’s frustation at Turkish denialism, which I can understand very well. But that does not make this particular post more acceptable
      

  143. Avery, I need to point out a few things and make some corrections. You said etnic Turks are only about %50 in Turkey. You mentioned some 50 millions ethic Turks in your previous post which make some %70 of the total population of Turkey. The question is where did you put the %20 difference in your recent  post. I know that you can make 2×2=5 or even 6 when you want to. But this seems way forward from what we used to see in your comments. 

    back to reality, %85 of the population of Turkey are etnic Turks. Kurds are %11. Zaza are just over %1. So Turkey doesn’t look like  Czech Republic and Slovakia or USSR. Therefore it is unlikely to break up. Yes Some Kurds claim the south eastern Turkey to be Kurdistan which could be %10 to 15 of the country.However, they feel to moderate their demand as half the population of Kurds live in the western and the southern cities.Turkey will suffer from the Kurdish seperatists but that will not a fatal collision at any time in the future. I know that you dream about partition of Turkey but that is the situation.
    @Trust me Kurds and Zaza can speak and learn their languages in Turkey without being jailed or killed.
    @As I posted on these pages before, Hidden Armenians in Turkey are largely exaggerated by the Armenian media as a few of them have come forward and practised their religion but not killed or jailed.So millions of hidden Armenians could have done the same. At least we should have seen several thousand or hundred. Actualy, they weren’t hidden Armenians because they said their neighbours already knew that they are Armenians. So where are they hiding?

    I have a secret proposal about the partition of Turkey but that will remain secret.
     

  144. Avery,

    The answer to your question is I HATE TodaysZaman and I LOVE Armenian Weekly. I want to post many other things but they have been denied by the editor.  

  145. Ragnar,

    Just to remind you that The Alevi isn’t an etnic group but a religious group. Most of the Alevi are etnic Turks, and I support everthing they want. I think that very few people objected their demands in Turkey but the government still do not know what to do about it.

  146. re: ‘But you are free to voice them here.’

    Oh, gee Professor  Naess, I didn’t know I needed your permission to have the freedom to post @ArmenianWeekly. 

    Now I know. Thanks. 

  147. Ragnar,

    You have a tendency to present yourself as the know-it-all professor who is constantly enlightening Armenians.

    The Zaza is a language group in rapid decline, they are not an ethnic group.

    Absolutely not. Since when are you an expert in these matters? Zazas are an ethnic group of Iranian origin and they consider themselves an ethinc group. I don’t know what their aspirations are in terms of getting freedom for themselves but if it is correct that their language is quickly dying then they are basically being Turkified at a rapid pace. You suggest that the same is happening with the Alevis? Too sad and I wouldn’t call it wise even if they are trying not to make the same mistakes as the Armenians. 

    FYI, Kurds dream about a free Kurdistan every single day. I don’t know how realistic it is and I am sure they want a democratic Turkey but a democratic Turkey where they are a minority is not the top of their dreams.

    Further you dont seem to realize that what Turkey did in invading Cyprus is from the perspective of international law the same as Armenia did when they invaded – or “freed” – Artsakh.

    Not at all. Artsakh has been our ancestral land (read the article about excavating the ruins of Dikranakert) and was given as a gift to Azeris by Stalin. Armenians ARE the rightful owners of Artsakh. And YES, Artsakh has been LIBERATED from discriminating foreign rulers. In contrast, Cyprus has been Greeks’ ancestral land, never Turks’, and was INVADED by Turkey. Even when within Azerbaijan, Artsakh had the status of an autonomous republic and people living there had the right for self-determination. I don’t think there was ever Northern Cyprus as a separate entity before the Turkish invasion. There isn’t one even now except in the eyes of the Turks. 

    It is no news that you will do anything to twist facts and evidence to discount our rights and diminish the merits of our case.  
     
      

  148. Ragnar, I think it is time for me to ask my question from Aug. 10th again:  “…rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?”


    Avery, at the risk of offending our Norsk friend, I find myself lapsing into applause again.  I understand what you want for Turkey, I respect that you don’t advocate violence against Turks, I know that you are describing a dream for the future, and I like it.   Turkey needs to learn to coexist without the need to dominate.  They don’t have to pay the price that Germany and Japan paid to learn this lesson, but they may bring it upon themselves if they don’t start looking at history honestly.   In the meantime, I hope you keep on dreaming and encouraging others to dream.  Like a ship that never leaves a harbor, a dream that isn’t allowed to be voiced, is hardly worth having.  No matter how unrealistic to some.

  149. Monastras:

    re:  [‘Avery, The answer to your question is I HATE TodaysZaman and I LOVE Armenian Weekly. I want to post many other things but they have been denied by the editor.’]

    I am not sure if your  statement re  ArmenianWeekly is genuine or facetious.
    In any case, obviously you read my post which mentioned TodaysZaman.
    So obviously you saw and read the last part of it also.

    So please be kind enough to explain your post @Hurriyet to Armenians here.
    Don’t try to hide or avoid it: you know I will keep reminding you whenever you post here.
    And don’t slough it off to the moderators of AW.
    Don’t expect them to publish what you posted @Hurriyet.
    The audience  here is  largely Armenian, with quite a few who have had eyewitness blood-relatives who related what happened in 1915-1923 to their children and grandchildren.

    The eyewitness accounts are very traumatic for the descendants of AG survivors: don’t expect AW to assist Turks in their Denialist campaign.

    If you stand by your post @Hurriyet, then don’t expect any Armenian to have a civil debate with you here. Either  state  publicly  here  on record that  you  stand  by  it,  or  retract  it and apologize. But make a stand either way. 
     
    I will address the discrepancy in my numbers at  a later post. 

  150. Avery jan— APRES my friend… BRAVO…

    Gina- EXCELLENT post.. apres…

    Monastras– NEVER SAY NEVER….No one ever thought USSR will break up like that.. no one and guess what they did? So i would not be too sure and full of BS of yourself about Turkey… there is a chance that your beloved Turkey that was created due to looting, murder, rape and stealing from my people and other civilized nations will fall into the same fate… don’t be too quick to jump up and down from joy….Hey Monastras, here is the link about Hidden Armenians… and guess what??? It was not presented or showed by an ARMENIAN media but NON-ARMENIAN media.. so your statement is as dumb as your comments on other things…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h69Zz0sV0GY

  151. Monastras and Ragnar– maybe you should read this comment from an ordinary Turk who posted on Todays Zaman… It is unfortunate that we have very few heros like this man and few others who are brave enough to stand up against all odds and express their disgust with you denialists….I am going to post this where Necati can read again and again and again.. hope you two do the same… the End…

    Mine Ozcelik Bagrationi , 28 July 2011 , 05:34

    Necati…Do you honestly beleive that all of us Turks, should follow the denialist and reactionary attitude that you possess? What makes you a better Turk than I? So, with your logic, If I put Armenia and Armenians down, poke fun at them, and deny the Genocide committed by our esteemed Ottoman government, (the same Ottomans who wanted Ataturk killed) would that make me a better Turk than you? My grandfather was a direct witness to the Genocide, when he found the battered body of his best friend, a young Armenian kid, butchered and thrown like a dead dog. It affected him so much, that years later he asked my father and instructed us to Never forget the injustices done to the Armenians. Do you consider Orhan Pamuk a Turk? Here is a Turk who singlehandedly brought Turkey more positive recognition than all of our political and military leaders combine. Why is it that we are afraid of the truth? All I hear from denialist Turks is that..”..the Armenians betrayed us and allied themselves with Russia..” FYI, Armenians Never denied that, but what would you expect from a people whom we taxed heavily and called them all the names in the book, one being “kâfir”, treating them as a second class citizens and the list is long. So, to conclude, I consider Pamuk, Akcam, and thousands of other proud Turks whose only aim is to accept the happenings of 1915, and move on as good neighbors. Trust me, accepting the Truth (Genocide will set us all free from the long arms of murderers who until today assassinates journalists, does the assassination of Dink ring a bell? Stop hiding behind your weapons and guns..in the end, trust me the “pen is mightier than your sword.” My grandfather, father and brothers served with dignity and courage in the armed forces of our beloved Turkey, and just because I speak the truth and do Not agree with you, you’re trying to silence me? Nobody can take my Turkishness from me, let alone you.

  152. Hey Monastras.. you complain about AW but your own Turkish site (Todays Zaman) may NEVER publish any of comments all together because of such a message.. is it because they don’t want us to post our comments freely without any restrictions and have to use such BS as due to high volume of e-mails?? LOL but you don’t see us whining about it do you???? unlike you…..LOL.. too funny..

    Your comment will shortly be read by the Today’s Zaman Internet editorial team. If it is selected for publication it would normally appear on the site within the next few hours. Due to the high volume of emails received by us we cannot guarantee that your comments will be published

  153. Monastras, thank you for your posts. I did field work with  Alevis  and published an article in 1985 (in Gerholm and Lithman: the new Islamic presence in Europe, title: “Being an Alevi Muslim in South West Anatolia and in Norway”). Now this is based on a prolonged relationship with people from one village and on literature, and I do not claim access to absolute knowledge, but I believe that Turkish Alevis on the whole fulfill the criteria of an ethnic group. One important criteria is that they fairly rarely intermarriage with Sunnis. But of course they regard themselves as Turks  and Muslims, indeed representatives of “true Islam”, so whether they should count as an ethnic group or not is a matter of definition.  

  154. Gayane, I would not say that the crime committed towards the Armenians is a “kind of genocide”. I have in mind the same type of qualification that I present in my answer to Monastras regarding “ethnic group”. The truth of what we say in this case may depend not only on facts about the people whom we believe to constitute an ethnic group, but on how we define  the term “Ethnic group”. My point is that the words we use are tricky in the sense that people not only sometimes understand different things when they utter different words, but sometimes understand different things when they utter the same word. And this gives rise to misunderstandings. In the same way there is sometimes a need to explain more in detail what we mean by the word Genocide, not only use it as an expression that conveys our sorrow and anger at the unspeakable crime that was committed against the Armenians. As I have said the events clearly constitute genocide if you use the reasoning of the ICTJ, that is the agency to which the Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission addressed themselves in 2002 to have a legal opinion. But if you ask the question “was it a genocide?” in a strictly juridical sense, that is according to the reasonings applied in the Convention and above all the verdicts regarding Rwanda and Bosnia and the legal opinions regarding e.g. Darfur, I am not sure and believe many Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide also according to this reasoning. But this should not stop us from fighting for justice for Armenians, and from trying to convince Turks that they must go honestly into this black spot of their past, which also means to fight for a more democratic Turkey. Now I may look ridiculous and pompous as a solitary Norwegian who does this, but then this is what I want to do, stupid or not, mistaken or not (I can give you the phone of my psychologist if you want, he can give an opinion on me, I hereby exempt him from his duty not to tell others about his clients).    

  155. Lemkin struggles for years to coin a word to describe what happened to Armenians and Jews and comes up with ‘genocide.’  Now we are second guessing the creator of the term about whether Armenian massacres qualify.  Does this make sense, Ragnar?  You are playing with words as if it were a game for a Saturday afternoon diversion.  You have gotten so lost in terms and definitions that you are losing sight of common sense.  You are defining yourself right into ridiculousness.  Perhaps you should take a step away and take a wide angle shot.  The details are confusing you.

  156. “Was it a genocide? I am not sure and believe many Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide[…]”

    For your information, this is maintained not only by ‘quick’ Armenians who lost 2 million of fellow nationals, two-thirds of their historic homeland, and all of their cultural and religious edifices and personal properties to murderer Ottoman Turks, but by a great number of non-Armenians, too. Amongst them are leading genocide scholars, historians, anthropologists, international lawyers, human rights activists, diplomats, politicians, and Nobel prize laureates. Against the backdrop of these experts, who are you to not be sure if it was a genocide? Who are you to place in question the premeditated crime committed against Armenians? “I became interested in genocide because it happened so many times. First to the Armenians, then after the Armenians, Hitler took action.” Do you consider yourself smarter than the inventor of the term, international lawyer and genocide scholar Raphael Lemkin? Has you psychologist ever told you that you might be suffering from Herostratos’ complex?
     
    The Alevis are spread over the whole country and are wise enough not to repeat the previous mistakes of the Armenians.”

    Should one conclude that not only are you a genocide denier, but an Armenophobe, as well? What are the ‘mistakes’ that Armenians have made? Quest for freedom was a mistake? Or the right to live as masters on their native lands was a mistake? Might it be that Armenians have in turn repeated the ‘mistakes’ of Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, Romanians, Greeks, Arabs who similarly aspired to throw off the yoke of the Turkish oppressors? Because they succeeded and Armenians were savagely slaughtered en masse, it means Armenians have made a ‘mistake’?

  157. ragnar naess    —-The more you post the more you expose yourself as a Turkish sympathizer. I have no problem with anyone being a sympathizer of something or someone per se, but to post biased comments (e.g. ‘not sure if it was a genocide’, ‘invading Cyprus is the same as invading Artsakh’, ‘Armenians made mistakes’, and many others in the past) while portraying yourself an advocate of peace and justice (with dubious motives) and a junior scholar (with dubious credentials), leads us to believe that you’re none other than a petty Turkish apologist.

  158. Gor jan, Very well said as you gave the true picture of Ragnar, who pretends that he is a non-denialist scholar but HE IS.

  159. EXACTLY dear Karo and Gor… That is what I, Boyajian, MJM exposed him of in our past experience with Ragnar… MJM/Boyajian jan.. what topic were we discussing with this man?  If any of you want more exposure to how Ragnar is, this discussion platform will give you plenty of evidence..

      …Actually Boyajian and MJM were more civil and professional with him than I had been.. However, when one continues to act like a fake promoter of justice and freedom of speech and understanding of what happened to Armenians by throwing us academic, dimplomatic or scientific BS truly shows who the person is.. and he is confused as to why we address him the way we do… Ragnar… may you ask your physocologist if you are fit to do such research because obviously you think you are but to general public, especially for Armenians, I am sorry but you are not qualified or you are able…

    Rangar- YES you would and did say ” that there was kind of Genocide”…  

    Apres Boyajian jan… apres…  

  160. boyajian, you write:
    “…rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?”. —
    Comment: Yes, I will try to answer and lets do what you propose. I started out in the discussion regarding this bedrosian article by commenting on “Anadolu”, partly on his condescending remarks on the Armenians’ fight for justice regarding Armenian churches and schools, partly on the arrests of april 24, 1915. There came no answers from “Anadolu”, but Gayane raised the old issue of “what side are you on”. Then you asked the question you repeated now. I must admit I overlooked your question then, and I’ll try to answer now.
    To advance justice it is necessary to continue to argue with Turks about what actually happened in 1915-16. I have posted several messages in “Daily Zaman” and “Daily Hurriyet” about this. It is important that all of us who care about the Armenian case try to find Turkish fora in which dialogues can be made. I will continue to do this, and also argue against those who belittle the catastrophy that befell the Armenians, and deny that what happened certainly is genocide according to the criteria of ICTJ. I will stick to this in the future. I see I ended up in another debate following Gayane’s lauching of the theme of “what side I am on”. I will not do it again.
    Second I hope to have Norwegians at large get interested in the issue. The problem now is that nobody is interested. Whether this is done by political means, by trying to mobilize Amnesty International or by other means is another matter. At the moment I am writing a book whose bottom line is that Turks must go into the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide, understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ, is the most important.
    In order to convince Turks I will start with Talat’s admissions, which actually are admissions of a crime. I will ask what this tells us about his intentions and the intensions of the central ittihadists. I will point to the fact that perpetrators hardly ever were brought to justice. I will say that it is the Turks who have the burden of proof that it was not a case of genocidal intent on the part of the ruling people. I will do it mainly by asking questions, and criticizing the answers, not trying to advance my case by saying that “historians say that…” or “it has been proven that…”. This is unproductive.
    As you have seen I support the Armenian cause with certain qualifications. I will not support the arguments forwarded by genocide scholars and Armenian scholars when I experience them to be dubious or have been shown to be mistaken. It is important to correct these views because otherwise conservative Turks will pick them up to show that “the Armenians are mistaken” and this serves to slow down justice. To insist on the Turks’ having the burden of proof and corroborating it with god arguments will speed up justice.
    I wanted to write something in the discussion after Bedrosian’s article because I believe it is good strategy for Armenians – and myself – to address Turks in Turkey, and recovering churches is a good strategy. What the ARF says about not making genocide recognition the primary strategy, but to focus on reparations and reclaiming churches – not forgetting about what happened ion 1915 and still promote an iunderstanding of this-  is good strategy to my mind.
     At the same time I believe it is important to admit that there was a cycle of violence and that Turks – in revenge and fear – did to Armenians something that Bulgarians, Russians and Greeks had been doing to them, only on a much larger scale. To admit this must not make us deflect from the main aim which is to seek justice for the Armenians, but if challenged by Turks it must be admitted (see the Libaridian article I mentioned in earlier posts).
    I believe it was unwise of the Armenians to refuse to participate in the commission of historians proposed by the Turkish government in 2005. It was a tactical blunder which has given the reactionary part of Turkish society apparently good arguments against the Armenians. Secondly, a commission would properly organized have been an excellent platform for researchers who defend the Armenian cause, because Turkish researchers on the whole have very distorted views and this would be visible to the international audiences.
    You are asking a very big question. I hope I at least managed to give some elements of an answer.    

  161. Ragnar,

    I do not know your nationality but I must admit that You are one of best scholars i  have ever seen  with all open-mind , historical and philosophic bases you have.

    Unfortunately,   most of the  people here  have  no base or will to understand what you say.

    I know you are in preparation of a book.  And i want to  read your books  although  a few things i cant agree with you. I would be so glad if you can e-mail me your name so i can  look for your books.

    I  have now written here one more time knowing that  many will blame me with shamelessness …

    Oh well.. i only need your name ..i dont care others…

    my e-mail:  nec3@hotmail.com

  162. Boyajian,
    no, I believe you are mistaken, such definitions are absolutely necessary. Read the verdicts from Rwanda and the Bosnia-Serbia case. The Bosniaks had a naive belief that what happened to them was genocide committed by the leadership of Yugoslavia/Montenegro. They lost. And the idea that BECAUSE Lemkin coined the term “genocide” the 1915 events MUST be a genocide according to the Convention, that is according not only to the definitions but according to the verdicts and treatment of the matter  in the trials after 1990 is a very strange idea, to my mind. But enough of this. Now you have an idea of how I will promote justice.

  163. Unfortunately, I have been told more than once by certain high level Turkish figures that the (only) underlying reason they oppose the use of the word genocide, is that they feel they have a technicality on their side: that the word was not coined until AFTER 1923 ! and that it cannot be applied retroactively – even though the word came into existence to describe their own actions from 1915 – 23.  

    Perhaps this little tidbit provides some insight and explains, at least in part, why they feel they can play the genocide card in recent instances of much smaller massacres around the world, but they themselves feel immune to it when it comes to discussing Armenians. They clearly know the truth, despite all their protestations and attempts to blame Armenians for their own demise.  So, while I wholeheartedly agree that the real audience for any of this is actually in Turkey, by way of strategizing and using legal means, perhaps it would make sense to convey this key element of timing and the true history behind the term, to them?  

    Lemkin’s face and words have been recorded on videotape for posterity….translate them into Turkish and play them over and over again until they are understood by more and more people. Eventually, the message will get thru and the truth will rise to the top. Whether or not this offers any hard change on the ground, though, is open to debate. It could result in an apology from the government, but as we can read here…that clearly is not going to be enough. There will need to be more if this issue is to become settled history at some point in time. 

     

  164.  Necati.. Please read a message to you from your Turkish comrade from Today’s Zaman… Please read and soak what he is truly saying.. you, Ragnar and your pack no matter how many ways you say it or how many ways you try to twist the truth, anyone in their right mind and conscious knows the truth.. Even your brethren is telling you to SHUT UP and smell the reality… Take his word…

    Enjoy

    Mine Ozcelik Bagrationi , 28 July 2011 , 05:34
    Necati…Do you honestly beleive that all of us Turks, should follow the denialist and reactionary attitude that you possess? What makes you a better Turk than I? So, with your logic, If I put Armenia and Armenians down, poke fun at them, and deny the Genocide committed by our esteemed Ottoman government, (the same Ottomans who wanted Ataturk killed) would that make me a better Turk than you? My grandfather was a direct witness to the Genocide, when he found the battered body of his best friend, a young Armenian kid, butchered and thrown like a dead dog. It affected him so much, that years later he asked my father and instructed us to Never forget the injustices done to the Armenians. Do you consider Orhan Pamuk a Turk? Here is a Turk who singlehandedly brought Turkey more positive recognition than all of our political and military leaders combine. Why is it that we are afraid of the truth? All I hear from denialist Turks is that..”..the Armenians betrayed us and allied themselves with Russia..” FYI, Armenians Never denied that, but what would you expect from a people whom we taxed heavily and called them all the names in the book, one being “kâfir”, treating them as a second class citizens and the list is long. So, to conclude, I consider Pamuk, Akcam, and thousands of other proud Turks whose only aim is to accept the happenings of 1915, and move on as good neighbors. Trust me, accepting the Truth (Genocide will set us all free from the long arms of murderers who until today assassinates journalists, does the assassination of Dink ring a bell? Stop hiding behind your weapons and guns..in the end, trust me the “pen is mightier than your sword.” My grandfather, father and brothers served with dignity and courage in the armed forces of our beloved Turkey, and just because I speak the truth and do Not agree with you, you’re trying to silence me? Nobody can take my Turkishness from me, let alone you.

  165. Ragnar—- YOu said  “catastrophy that befell the Armenians”.. I beieve the true word for this catastrophy of yours is GENOCIDE… you are not fighting for ARmenians and I would not want you to fight for us… I don’t trust or rely on you to share the most accurate and NON BIASED message.. so thanks but no THANKS… appreciate the messed up thought that you think you are helping but in reality you are creating more confusion and denial… so get off this case and persue something tat you are more suited to do.. Sorry forthe harsh words but MJM was right.. no point of talking to you… you are NO poin of return… Good day sir….

  166. Armenian posters: read this sentence carefully.  

    ‘…Unfortunately, I have been told more than once by certain high level Turkish figures…’ 

    Question: who among you talks regularly to certain high level Turkish figures
    (‘more than once’ implies regular contact with high level Turkish figures)

  167. well done Gayane. I am very proud. I can leave the scene now. One of our own has learned to use the tools of the trade very well, and wields them with expertise.
    Armenian Lady Samurai.

    (just kidding….I am not leaving: too much fun jousting with the Denialists) 

  168. ragnar naess,   the idea is not that because Lemkin coined the term ‘genocide’ the 1915 events must be a genocide. You got it wrong again. It’s his studies of the Armenian case (along with the Jewish one) that led to coining the term ‘genocide’ to depict the essence of what happened: killing of a race. That is, he examined Allies’ definition in 1915: ‘crime against humanity and civilization’, then in the 1930s came up with ‘crime of barbarity’ to depict Turkish mass murders, and then, in 1943, with ‘genocide’. The premeditation of mass murders, their scale, and target on a particular racial, ethnic, and religious group awaited their semantic and legal definition. In other words, in 1915-1923 it was genocide that was called differently by individuals, media, diplomats, politicians, and world government, and the 1943 Lemkin’s definition reflected upon the crime by coining the term. In the Armenian case, there have been verdicts and treatment of the matter in the trials: Turkish courts martial of 1919-1920 that charged several top individuals representing the Turkish state of the massacres of both Armenians and Greeks, forming a key argument in the Treaty of Sèvres, which resulted in the partitioning of the Ottoman Empire.

  169. Avery…who said ‘regularly’?  No one, but you. However, even you can send an email to people in Turkey and you will, fairly often, get a response!  Try it sometime and you’ll probably get a note back, particularly if you send a sane, intelligent letter, or ask a topical question. They regularly publish their email addresses in the Turkish media when they write articles. Communication is a great way to learn new things. Try it. 

  170. Karekin, I’m afraid you gave yourself away by “I have been told more than once by certain high level Turkish figures.”  I thought you said you were wandering in Kurdish villages in Western Armenia and also visiting the remaining Armenian churches in Constantinople.  But it looks like you also had high-level meetings with Turkish officials.  Hmmm, that sounds thought-provoking…

  171. To Ragnar, Necati, Robert the turk, and whom it may concern,

    You Turks have untill August 19 to respond to US federal court regarding the lawsuit filed by ARmenians regarding their lost property during AG. (it also includes Incirlik Military Base, for which USA pays around $10mil every year).

    AT LEAST UNTIL THEN YOU SHOULD DISAPPEAR FROM AW PAGES AND THINK ABOUT WHAT TO SUBMIT OR HOW TO RESPOND TO THAT LAWSUIT.  YOU SHOULD ONLY VISIT AW IF YOU SEEK AN ADVICE. GOOD LUCK>

  172. ….a yeah, I am sure Turks would leave an email trail like that. 
    (prove me wrong: reproduce the emails with their addresses here on these pages)
    (they are pubic, No ? you said so.) 
    (make sure they arefrom ‘high level Turkish figures,not some Joe Shmoe,)
    (because I will check the emails and the addresses for authenticity.)

    The phrase ‘high level Turkish figure’  implies a high level Turkish official.
    Why is it that it sounds and feels different than ‘people in Turkey’.

    the phrase “…have been told….” is more often than not used to denote conveyance of verbal communication: you slipped pal, and for a moment the mask came off for all to see who you really are. Too late. It’s on record.

    I knew it all along, but am I glad you inadvertently revealed yourself for all to see. 

  173. you AW  know what is happening? 

    I am turning to  a tiger  from a man like a  sheep day by day each time  i read you,

  174. Necati- Unfortunately, you have lost your mind.. I know it can affect someone when that someone finally realizes that they are indeed a denialist… that can be very hard on the person.. i know… your last post truly demonstrates your incoherence with your own self and words.. you made NO SENSE…. but reading and figuring out messed up in their head individuals very well.. I think I figured what you were TRYING to say… i am going ot take a wild guess here…

     You say after reading the post on AW (or posts from someone specific.. can’t tell from your writing) you turning into a  beast from a man is nothing unusual Necati.. That trait comes from your ancestors who demonstrated such beastly traits and acted upon them and almost destroyed an ancient civilization.. Armenians..Therefore, your argument that the posts here make you turn into a beast is inaccurate… it is your subconscious self dictating how dangerous you are to society and if there are people like you in Turkey (which I know for sure they are… the lost denialists) roaming around, then how do you expect peace loving Armenians to have a conversation with a violent beast like creatures…. Oh my goodness, I feel like I am in the horror movie “the warewolf”… might as well.. no difference when it comes to denialists…

    Have a good day

  175. Vay Avery jan..yes qez shat em sirum.. yes qez chem imanum bayts arten vorpes im expayrs shat em sirum…:) Armenian Lady Samurai.. :) that is great.. loved it.. but guess what??? I learned it from the best… and I thank you and everyone else..:)

    Karekin- Karekin— my friend lost in translation… see what happens??? this is a lesson to you and those denialists and Turkish sympathizers….. THE TRUTH WILL COME OUT SOONER OR LATER..

  176. Hi Avery, We finally caught Karekin.  Inkezink mechdegh hanets che?

    Thanks Gayane jan, I liked the article you put out from Mine Oszcelik Bagrationi.  There are sympathetic Turks, I know.  We wish there were more of them who would speak truthfully about the Armenian Genocide.

    Gor jan, You gave very good explanations to Ragnar about how Lemkin coined for the murder of the Armenian nation to call it a Genocide.

  177.  
    AR
    thank you for giving us this date of august 19. Indeed I will look for news because this will be an opportunity to launch the story in Norwegian papers, so that it will be possible to have norwegians think about the genocide and what Turks and Armenians are doing. But why this unfriendly message of DISAPPEARING from AW until then?
    Gor
    Of course you are right that the fact – that Lemkin coined this word based on what he knew about the events of 1915 – is not the only reason why we call the massacres and deportations of Armenians, the confiscation of property, the destruction of churches, the number of Armenians forced to convert to Islam – for genocide. My comment was based on what Boyajian wrote: quote: Lemkin struggles for years to coin a word to describe what happened to Armenians and Jews and comes up with ‘genocide.’  Now we are second guessing the creator of the term about whether Armenian massacres qualify.  Does this make sense, Ragnar? Unquote. I always try to comment on people’s exact words. But when I reread it now, I realize that I maybe misunderstood Boyajian. Sorry, Boyajian!
    Gayane, did what I said about clarifying what words mean make any sense for you?( By the way, my reference to my psychologist was a joke). I respect you as a persons who fights for what you believe in, but when you have no comments after I have tried to explain myself, you must again excuse me for feeling that you are engaging in a monologue, not a dialogue.
    Karekin, Avery, the official Turkish position as far as I know is that “genocide” is a juridical term, and hence when one uses it one must give heed to juridical nuances. I believe this is mistaken. The term is a juridical term, further a research term because genocide researchers made it very clear that for research purposes they need another concept than the juridical one. Third it is a moral term which conveys our anger and condemnation of a crime. Fourth it is obviously a political term. This characteristic it shares with words like “discrimination” which is used in everyday speech, but which also has a juridical meaning which leads to quite intricate and technical  reasonings in many cases (is it discrimination or isnt it?). So conservative Turks cannot simply reject the assertion that genocide happened by pointing to the fact that the law was made after the events.  The question whether given events before 1951 constitute genocide or not, taken as a juridical question, is not impossible to answer. This is the point made by ICTJ in 2002. I believe this is correct. That the perpetrators cannot be punished by a law getting into force in 1951 for something they did in 1915, apart from the fact that most of the perpetrators probably were dead, is another matter.  

  178. In a world where fantasy persists as reality, it should come as no suprise to me that you are all inventing new conspiracies and intrigues. Believe me….it’s not all that complicated or difficult. There is nothing mysterious or devious.  The fact that you are cannibals who will eat anyone – even an Armenian – who does not agree w/ you 1000% and challenges your fantasies, is what has been revealed, more than anything else. It seems that you would rather preserve your unshakable, and somewhat arrogant ideologies rather than do pro-active things that will support, preserve and grow Armenia. Please do not try to shift the focus here….this discussion is not about me….at the same time, do not sacrifice Armenia on the altar of ideology and for the lure of fantasy. You have no right to do that. Yes, you can read Jirayr’s article and scoff, but guess what? He too has put truth on the table…reject it at Armenia’s peril.   

  179. Gayane,

    Mine is a Turkish female name. I came across another post of this woman. She apparently grabbed a fine Armenian man. She loves her hubby so much if we believe her Turkish ethnicity. I am glad that a Turkish woman grabbed a fine Armenian man. But you should never trust what she says. She might change her mind. I am also glad that their children will be supporting us. However, I read somebody’s post here pretending to be Turkish and asking the other Turks to adopt the Sever Treaty. Guess, who he was?

    We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal. 

  180. Avery,

    I will ask you a simple question one more time. Why haven’t you applied to International Court of Justice and ask the Court whether or not this was a case of genocide by now? If they said yes it was a genocide we shut up and support you. If they said it wasn’t a genocide you shut up.

    It appears that you seriously  think that you are an Armenian commander, jumping from this front to that front, fighting ferociously against the Turks, congratulating your little successes, giving orders to your soldiers as well as the enemy soldiers(probably by mistake). What you do not realize is we are actually all (including you) keyboard knights

  181. Ragnar

    I am not an ethnicity expert but a fairly good reader. As far as I am concern, Alevis aren’t an ethnic group. There are Zaza Alevis, Kurdish Alevis, and Turkish Alevis and recently I learned that even Albanian Alevis exist. Therefore, if there is no intermarriage we cannot class them as a different ethnicity as Kurds and Turks are different ethnicity but the intermarriage is common between those groups. 

  182. Monastras:  I will ask you a simple question one more time: do you or do you not stand by this post of yours

    [Guest – Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust]

    Yes or No ? 

  183. Monastras
    I am not an expert either, and I believe there exist different definitions. But the Alevis I know intermarriage to some extent with kurdish alevi, incidentally mostly from Sivas, it appears. But marriages between them and local sunnis are extremely rare, unless there has been a change in the last years. So they satisfy one common criteria of being an ethnic group. But all such boundaries are fluid I believe, and Alevi practices in other places may be very different for all I know

  184. monastras
    there is no need to go to any international court if the question  whether the horrible fate of Armenians in 1915 can legitimately be called genocide. The ICTJ answered this in the affirmative. The events can be called genocide. ICTJ gave a legal advice, not a verdict, (see my post above). If one looks at the way the ICTJ phrased it, the criteria they used,  it is by the way very hard to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria or the Circassians in the Caucasus also suffered genocide. But the Armenian debacle was much greater than the other one, so we rightly support the Armenians, also because they  actually have been knocking on all doors to have Turks go honestly into the dark aspects of their past. Many Turks seem only to bring up the catastrophy that befell the Turks when discussing with Armenians. But this equalizing is of course unacceptable. The Armenians have stated a case and should be answered properly. But I will not repeat and repeat the word genocide which obviously applies. If one reads the stories of the massacres, the rapes, the woman and children marched to death or slaughtered in 1915-16, only people with a heart of stone can fail to be moved to compassion and demands for justice.   

  185. “Why haven’t you applied to International Court of Justice and ask the Court whether or not this was a case of genocide by now?”
     
    Monastras, because Armenia (or, to be exact, what was left of her after the genocide and theft of lands and properties by Ottoman Turkish barbarians) has become the subject of international law merely 20 years ago after the break-up of the USSR. The new state had to deal with many problems: consequences of a devastating earthquake, the aggression of Aliyevstan against self-determining Artsakh, and the numerous problems at state-building. Everything will come at the right time and at the right place. ICJ included. But already we have the International Center for Transitional Justice (ICTJ) resolution that ruled that the slaughter of 1.5 million Armenians fits into the internationally accepted definition of genocide. We also have International Association of Genocide Scholars (IAGS) resolution that reaffirmed that the mass murder of Armenians in Turkey in 1915 is a case of genocide which conforms to the statutes of the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide. As you may know, we also have the  increasing number of foreign parliaments, central and regional governments, EuropeanParliament, international organizations, professional associations, human rights groups, genocide scholars, historians, international lawyers, and Nobel prize winners attesting to the fact of genocide.
     
     
    “If they said yes it was a genocide we shut up and support you.”
     
    Monastras, is this the limit of Turkish mental capabilities? I mean, if someone says something to you, then you will parrot? Are you not capable of doing a simple research in non-Turkish and non-Armenian sources to try to answer a question: was it a genocide? What happened to 2-2.2 million of Western (Ottoman) Armenians from 1915 to 1923? Could 2.2 million unarmed and disorganized people—amongst them women, children, and the elderly—be ‘collaborators’ with Ottoman empire’s enemies? How did they technically ‘collaborate’ if the bulk of them lived in rural areas far detached from the frontlines of the WWI? Where are those native inhabitants of their own lands now? Where are their churches, monasteries, schools, religious seminaries, houses, pastures, bank accounts, insurance indemnities, personal properties? How could the whole people be slaughtered en masse if their government was not involved? The answer, that the rest of the world except Turks knows, offers itself: it was a premeditated, planned, and centrally-executed mass murder directed against a particular national, ethnic, racial, and religious group — the Armenians. The same mass murder was executed, although at lesser death scale, against other Ottoman Christian groups: Greeks, Assyrians, and Syriacs. When you’ll learn this, answer to yourself what kind of a nation the Turks are.

  186. Monastras,you had asked Avery this question:
    Quote
    Why haven’t you applied to International Court of Justice and ask the Court whether or not this was a case of genocide by now? If they said yes it was a genocide we shut up and support you. If they said it wasn’t a genocide you shut up.
    Unquote
    The Genocide is an accepted fact for Armenia & Armenians & it is not disputable.On top so many countries around the world have recognised the Armenian Genocide committed by the Ottomans.
    For Turkey as the inheritors of the Ottomans(who committed the Armenian Genocide) the Armenian genocide is disputable.Turkey has seriously studied in approaching the International Court of Justice & has put aside a budget of $25 million for this cause.However it has not done so far (by getting proper legal advice) for the simple fact that it will lose the case since so many countries have already recognised it.
    So it is the duty of people like you to push your own government to apply to the International Court of Justice.

  187. To all Turks and their sympathizers who bloviate about lawsuits and such.
    AR already mentioned the lawsuit  (Alex Bakalian et. al vs. Republic of Turkey, the Central Bank of Turkey, and T.C. Ziraat Bankasi et. al, Case Number 2:10-CV-09596, December 15, 2010) in his post above.
     
    But here is the interesting passage:
     
    [The plaintiffs have spent recent months attempting to serve all the defendants, and then to have the court affirm their service efforts. In the August 2 order, the court denied Central Bank of Turkey and Ziraat Bank‘s motion to dismiss the complaint for insufficient service of process. The court acknowledged that the plaintiffs presented “credible evidence that their process servers made several attempts to serve the bank defendants at addresses in “New York City… [and] were repeatedly denied access to the buildings and [were even]…misdirected as to Ziraat Bank’s actual location.”] (emphasis mine)
     
     
    Now we don’t if this particular lawsuit will be ultimately successful for the plaintiffs or not: time will tell. However, I have a question:
     
     
    If Turks have nothing to hide, why are they hiding ?

  188. Turks in Bulgaria […] also suffered genocide” (?!)

    ragnar naess,    Turks in Bulgaria were occupiers and colonizers. I regret the loss of human life, but do please call things by their name: Ottoman Turks came to invade and colonize the Bulgarians, as well as several other indigenous Balkan peoples. Turks suffered losses when Bulgarians, as well as other Balkan and Middle Eastern peoples, stood up to throw off the yoke of the Turkish oppressors. By no account were the Turkish losses in the Balkans reminiscent to genocide. Their losses were the consequence of national liberation movements of the people Turks oppressed for centuries. This has no comparison whatsoever with the premeditated and centrally-planned and executed mass murder of Armenians by the Ottoman government. Besides, for the sake of objectivity, when you talk about Turks in Bulgaria, do you care to mention what atrocities Turks have committed against the Bulgarians, as well as Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, Albanians, and Montenegrins? The key to understanding what happened to Turks in the Balkans is that they were colonizers. No national liberation struggle or freedom-fighting proceeds bloodless. No serious genocide scholar or a historian—unless he or she is paid by the Turks or is a professor at a Turkish university—will accept that “Turks in Bulgaria suffered genocide.” Even if as a sign of utopia we admit that “Turks in Bulgaria suffered genocide”, how exactly that relates to the genocidal extermination of the Armenians, who were nowhere near the Balkans? Among other things, Turks were motivated by the desire to salvage as much land as possible for themselves, and Armenians, residing in eastern parts of Turkey, were seen as an obstacle towards achieving the goal. Genocide of Armenians by the Turks has no remote correlation with the losses Turks had suffered as a result of expulsions of Turkish occupiers from the Balkans. You keep making mistakes lately…

  189. Gor, VTiger

    Thank you for your reply. I think that either I couldn’t explain my point or it is hard for you guys to get the point. From Turkish point of view, Armenian question was resolved a century ago right. Armenians do not occupy any place in the turkish agenda except trying to stop the useless law in USA every year.I hope every country in the world recognize this. If turkey got advise that it will loose the case then it is good for you Armenians. Knowing that Turkey will loose the case must give you extra strenght to make your application. But again, Strangely you might say. Turkey shoudl do it. Yes If that court deliver a verdict in your favour or Turkey’s favour , I will repeat that like a parrot but If It is undisputable from Armenians point of view then why are you asking Turkey to accept that it was a genocide.My argumant is when that court delivers a verdict whatever it will be, We  have to accept the outcome and even Turkey might pay some monatary compansation.Please do not tell me again it is turkey’s responsibility to aply to the court. It is your problem not Turkey’s. In my opinion, you can not call this sort of events as genocide without the International court of Justice verdict. Because turks reject the label and they have very good arguments as well.If AW had allowed me to post what really happened you would see the turkish point of view about they call it propoganda and remove it

  190. Gor
    the Genocide convention does not distinguish between colonisers and indigenous people. It deals with “protected groups” (racial,ethnic, religious or national) and certain acts done with the aim of destroying “in whole, or in part” a  protected group “as such”.

  191. Gor jan– you hit the bull’s eye when you said “is this the limit of Turkish Mental capabilities”… That is EXACTLY what is going on here… These people have no extensive education. their daily news come from television.. what they hear is what they know.. They have NO BRAIN of theirs… THey are like catle and their govt is their pastor…. why do you think they repeat the same BS as their govt.. why do you think they deny everything that their govt denies.. they are fed this BS for such a long time, that their brain works not on intelligence, individuality, compassion, understanding but machine driven propaganda..they are like zumbies….

    It is sad truly sad…

    We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal.

    You should be very proud of this Monastras.. This demonstrate the primative and barbaric traits still present in your denialists…you and  Necati are prime candidates of that….  we are not making up these things.. you denialists openly confessing with your stupid comments… but we can’t expect more than that…

    Mina, a Turkish woman has more balls than you Monastras so no matter how much you try to put her down by saying she grabbed an Armenian as he husband, she remains a better person than you… 

    Gayane
     

  192. Ragnar- why don’t you just for once tell us what EXACTLY you want to accomplish here? Your confused, enigma presence on these pages does not benefit  anyone but yourself..I understand you are thirsty of information and you being here you gather material for your so called book.. us.. however, as a professor or a researcher (as you claim to be) you need to go to archives of NON-Turkish govts and individuals and not jump in into such discussions as this.. obviously there is alot of good data on these pages alone but unfortunately you can’t quote anyone on these pages for private research purposes.. so i don’t know why you are here… and please don’t tell me about such BS as oh i want to understand, i am working on mutual conversation.. i am doing this and that….

    You are as confused as a lost Turk living in Turkey… but at least they have an excuse.. i don’t know what is your excuse…..

    Thank you

    Gayane        

  193. gayane
    I must admit I am frustrated by you. I tried to explan something when you asked, but you do not comment on my answer. In a discussion in working life or in a school, or in any other normal setting this would not work. But it apparently does work in AW? I tried to repeat something about words having different meanings which is a clue to my  point of view, but you make no comment to this. I am also wondering about monastras, Avery and gor. Are these the fights Turks and Armenians love to engage in on the pages of AW?

  194. Ragnar-  I am sorry… ohhh so sorry that I am frustrating you.. if you are frustrated then I am wayyyyyyyyyyyy past that but i don’t complain do i? :). we have asked you million times what  your intentions are on these pages and all we got was confused, messed up, two sided answers.. and frankly my dear I don’t give a damn that you are getting frustrated..all i care is for you to be honest with yourself and to others….

    Sorry for the blunt response Ragnar but you have overextended your stay … not that we don’t want you joining us, it is just we are tired of your games.. period…

    Have a good day sir..

    MJM is smart not to deal with you anymore… and he did warn me….

    Gayane       

  195.  Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?)
    Even though you mention my name  in your every other post, i will keep silence until You or AW invites me back to  commenthere in AW .

     You have recently, for the last 2-3 days seem so different again. Looks someone else is using your KB. I  am used to hear this jargon  like “More balls, no brain, zumbies”, from “someone” else , but  i am disappointed to hear from you. I would take the old Gayane if asked.
     This was good one for Vanoush: “i read the 300,000 Churches from an article written by a high ranking Armenian Apostolic priest.”   and made me smile for the first time after a looong boring day.  Thanks.

    Actually i had read it before and made a small math for not area but “church per Armenian”…However, the result  was not as funny as yours , Monastras.

    A nice day (night?) to all Hayturks.

  196. My friend Gayane, I feel sad if some Armenians cannot say more to the cruel ethnic cleansing of Turks than “these things happen”. It plays right into the hands of the nationalist Turks who will love to depict the Armenians as people who do not care about humanism but only about themselves. These Turks are also shrugging their shoulders at the Armenian genocide and saying “these things happen”. It is sad when peoples who experienced so much awful suffering belittle the sufferings of each others. But the clue lies in the undignified competition for victim status behind the idea of  the “worst possible crime”. Then it becomes imperative to deny Turks the status of victims of genocide. My point is that one must recognise the suffering of others, even criminals and colonisers, otherwise one dilutes the humanistic message which is universal. Inncent Turkish villagers did not deserve to die in 1877-78. When gor says “these things happen”, I shudder. And he holds that “this has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide”. Well, the theme was the criteria for genocide, which gor apparenlty is not able to remeber….   Lastly:Why am I here? To learn about Armenians, how you think. If I didnt I would miss a very important ingredient in my understanding of the situation.But will you ever understand me, Gayane, if you are not able to comment on anything I say!
     

  197. Ragnar you said the following: obviously there is no winning with you….

    I tried to repeat something about words having different meanings which is a clue to my  point of view,– NO EXTRA, DIFFERENT or ALIEN MEANING WHEN IT COMES TO THE WORD GENOCIDE… RAGNAR… do you appreciate the fact that Genocide is Genocide? and THIS IS what we have been repeating over and over and apparently you are not getting it… save me your logistics and scientific explanations.. i honestly do not find them attractive nor useful… only to you they are.. who are you representing ..??? who are you to discredit all those who already said it was a Genocide… Go think about that.. don’t ask someone who had family members who directly were impacted by this Genocide, who had family members who devoted THEIR ENTIRE ORPHAN LIFE to find and reunite all the other orphans left behind after this Genocide….you are asking me to give a better meaning or some other explanation of the word??? ARE YOU SERIOUS???? 

    I am also wondering about monastras, Avery and gor. Are these the fights Turks and Armenians love to engage in on the pages of AW?

    Please do not mix and match my friends, Avery and Gor with likes like Monastras and Turks who are likeminded..I see him very primative and barbaric minded… and he does not deserve to be limped alongside with such intelligent and educated people such as Avery and Gor.. You better think twice before you write something.. because obviously you are not reading what Avery and Gor are saying and why they are saying it… I know this may sound weird to you Ragnar but we are not fighting…. we are debating and discussing and shutting up the denialists from their continued distraction of the truth.. HUGEEEEEEE difference between fighting and discussing/ debating and challenging.. Hopefully that helped to clearify some matters.. 

  198. Yeah, ragnar naess.   Armenians have no just cause to fight for. Didn’t you know? They just ‘love’ to engage in a fight with the Turks just for a fun of it.  How about you? Why do you raise in these pages? Because you love ‘dialogues’ that supply ideas for your book or because you love doing linguistic gymnastics with the word ‘genocide’? Or both?

  199. Mr. Naess:
     
    People here are very polite towards you (except me), and they indulge you out of respect – despite your transparent attempts to deceive and divide, under the ridiculous cloak of ‘discussion’. Others more sophisticated and subtle than you have tried: it is not working – it will never work.
     
     
    Myself and my fellow Armenians are not engaged in a, quote, ‘fight’.
    And we don’t  ‘love engaging in’  fights. All of us have much better things to do with our lives and time.
    But as I have said before: it is like going to the dentist; not pleasant, but necessary.
     
     
    Read the level of discourse on these pages, the deep knowledge and high-level of intellect  of Armenian posters here (except yours truly: I am a dirty, low-brow street fighter from a rough neighborhood in Yerevan  called  Կոնդ), and compare that to Turk posters @TodaysZaman and @Hurriyet.
     
     
    What myself, Gor, and many of  our compatriots  are engaged in is information warfare: Turks, Azeri-Tatars, and their Turcophile friends and Agents are engaged in a relentless campaign of dissemination of Anti-Armenian disinformation throughout the blogosphere. As long as they do that, we have no choice but to counter. All of us have other things to do, most of us have full time jobs, bills to pay, etc.
    But our brothers and sisters in Armenia and Artsakh are in danger: we have to be on watch  watch their back.
    It is somewhat similar to a courtroom trial: allegations and falsehoods presented by the opposing side – if left  unchallenged – give the impression to the “Jury” that they are truths. You can guess who the “Jury” might be in our case.
     
     
    You guys keep insulting our intelligence by your juvenile attempts to convince us to engage in debates, dialogues, discussions, blah, blah, blah,…
    Read the posts again: NOBODY here is buying it.
     
    Are we supposed to just get along with Anti-Armenian Denialists here ?
    Are you kidding ?

  200. ragnar naess,   first and foremost, the genocide convention does not apply to the expulsion and atrocities against Turks in Bulgaria and the Balkans so it can distinguish between colonizers and indigenous people. The genocide convention cannot apply to each and every human atrocity. If it could, we would have ‘genocides’ all over the globe irrespective whether killings of the people occurred as a result of just or unjust wars, invasions, occupations, colonization campaigns, or a murder on a street. There is also no such thing in the definition of genocide, as per 1948 UN Convention, as “protected groups”. Article II clearly states that genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. No “protected groups”, sorry. Atrocities against indigenous peoples throughout centuries by the Turks and atrocities against Turks during their expulsion from the Balkans, which Turks invaded and colonized, and the government-planned and executed campaign of deliberate physical extermination of Armenians as a race are two divergently different instances. Nazi Germans suffered great loss of life during the Stalingrad and Kursk campaigns on the Russian soil that they occupied in WWII. Go ahead and characterize this as ‘genocide’ and see what Russians and Allies will say in response. Don’t you get the point?

  201. “When gor says “these things happen”, I shudder.” 
     
    ragnar naess,   you owe me an apology. I never uttered such words. If you refer me to any such words in my comments, I’ll take my words to you back. If you won’t, then you’ll apologize for misrepresenting my comments. Fair deal?

  202. Necati Genis:      —-“Hayturks” is a product of your Turkish imagination or you might have smoked something really strong in a third-class bazaar in Constantinople to come up with such idiotic mix? When Hays were on the world map creating Indo-European civilization, Turks were non-existent. Only in the 11th century AD Seljuk Turks abandoned their sh**holes in Mongolian steppes and around the mountains of Altay and emerged as nomadic conquerors (not builders or creators) on the maps. Therefore, my simple question to you: how the name of a noble people can merge in some made-up term with a barbarian one?

  203. NEcati— obviously you people are very very slow to understand..but not blaming you.. it is not yourfault.. it is just the genetics.. you know.. too sad..

    You said..
    Necati Genis
    August 16, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?)
    Even though you mention my name  in your every other post, i will keep silence until You or AW invites me back to  commenthere in AW .
    You have recently, for the last 2-3 days seem so different again. Looks someone else is using your KB. I  am used to hear this jargon  like “More balls, no brain, zumbies”, from “someone” else , but  i am disappointed to hear from you. I would take the old Gayane if asked.
      This was good one for Vanoush: “i read the 300,000 Churches from an article written by a high ranking Armenian Apostolic priest.”   and made me smile for the first time after a looong boring day.  Thanks.
    Actually i had read it before and made a small math for not area but “church per Armenian”…However, the result  was not as funny as yours , Monastras.
    A nice day (night?) to all Hayturks.

    We told YOU many times to dissapear did we not??? Why are you still here?? So why are not silent?? You posting does not tell me that.. is it because your Turkish friends on Turkish sites are not as welcomed and responsive to you?/ Do you have disorder where you NEED or WANT attention??? 

    And you by calling us HyeTurks tells us nothing but hatred toward us..  how primative of you…lol I laugh at your comments…LOL

    Gayane      

     

  204. WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.. Ragnar I thought you being a researcher and a professor, you would be much more in keen with the information provided to you on these pages… vs Necati or Monastras but you are on the same boat..

    YOU keep repeating the same thing over and over and Gor and Avery gave you specifics and detailed information WHY your below argument is without grounds…you said

    My point is that one must recognise the suffering of others, even criminals and colonisers, otherwise one dilutes the humanistic message which is universal.

    I say you have missed, you are absolutely missing and no doubt, you WILL miss the point.. give it up…

  205. Asa Karo jan.. asa.. apres.. shat siretsi qo gratsa…:)

    Gor jan– Xosq chka .. brilliant…

    Avery jan– Excellent… Qefs galisa vor kartum em qo gratsnera..:)

    I guess I have been dirty and rude and bad to our guests… :( what shall we do??? .. i hope they forgive us (tear coming down my eye)…  

    Ragnar- you are leaving already?? not again!!!!!.. you always do this sir.. you come in here with your blown up attitude then once we put a hole in your bubble, you leave… is that how you work??? ehhhh.. Ragnar Ragnar.. it is soooo obvious that there is no winning when it comes to the truth and justice will alwas prevail… and in your case, we always find holes in your logic and when you see there is no where o run anymore, you leave the pages.. hope you got more material for your book but i doubt even the world’s material will not change you…  

    Gayane

  206. Ms/Mr  KARO,

    Hayturk is not a race i created in my mind. It is a result of a survey proven with  scintific searches. 

    And what is wrong with being brothers rather than enemies ?  Karo, My brother .

    Ms Gayane,

    You know, i like you Armenians very much ,no matter which hysteric feelings you have for us Turks. And i know you Hays also like Us Turks appearently  because many of you visit Turkish news papers everday. NO?  

    or is it a Stockholm syndome ?
     

  207. Necati– you trying to be a smart a*($(#*$(*#(*(#*$(#*$ with your sarcastic tone makes no difference… what Karo said was legit.. what you say is not legit… so keep mumbling your sarcastic posts.. no one cares.. and do you mind sharing that survey of yours that proven the Hayturk is a race with scientific searches please… ohhhh can’t wait.. sooo excited…

    Oh Necati- It is not the love for you denialists that we visit the Turkish sites, it is because we need to stop your denialists spreading lies and mis information… so keep dreaming…  but know this: WE WILL CONTINUE to visit your sites just to make sure we shut denialist up right on their track… you can count on that… oh you are speaking of hysteric feelings?? LOL you should not talk… you are border line hysteric…you can’t leave this dicussion because you are obsessed.. you can’t handle the truth and all you want to do is inject your ugly truth but guess what??? ain’t working… .. so first look at yourself and then call my friends hysteric people….

  208. Necati Genis, mr or mrs, doesn’t matter…

    What survey? The one that speculates that because of mass rape, forced marriages, enslavement in filthy Turkish harems, forced conversion to Islam, or Turkification out of fear, some segment of modern-day Turks might have noble Armenian genes? And you think there’s nothing wrong in such distasteful deeds of your forefathers?
     
    I’m not your ‘brother’, don’t give me this cheap Turkish flattery. Your brothers are tribes residing in Central Asian steppes and on the mountains of Altay in Mongolia. By the way, how do Turks understand brotherhood? Is mass murdering innocent people, torturing and mutilating them, raping their women, daughters, and sisters, burning and burying them alive considered a ‘brotherly’ attitude with the Turks?
     
    You don’t want us to be enemies? Fine. Then offer apologies for the genocide of Armenians!

  209. Monastaras,

    Let me hepl you to understand why so far we have not gone to international court.
    What’s the rush? Are we in a hurry?? Absolutle not.

    The longer it takes the bigger our demands will get. MAybe 50 years ago Turkey could have get away by just appologizing for Genocide.  Not anymore Monastras.  It is not about recognizing or oppologizing anymore.  It is about WESTERN ARMENIA. 

    Do yo get it??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

  210. Necati,

    re.  Hayturk is not a race i created in my mind. It is a result of a survey proven with  scintific searches. 

    You must have a hell of a stomach for such an appetite. 
    Wouldn’t it solve all the problems Necati? Think about it. HAYturks.

    Finaly some Turks found a way to legitimize not only their existence but also their birthcertificates by calling themselves “Hayturks”.  

    I guess next step should be claiming that TORK ANGEGH and TARKU belong to pantheon of ancient turkish gods.   

    Wouldn’t you Necati wish to recognize ARmenian Genocide in return for being recognized as HAYturk by us??  Keep on dreaming amigo.
     

  211. Ms.  Gayane, I will keep dreaming.

    Karo, I will find the link  to the search.

    AR, What do you mean ” western Armenia” ?  Oktemberyan, Artashat  and Yerevan ?

  212. “And i know you Hays also like Us.”
    necati, history is part of current reality. Those
    who ignore their history are not living in the real world. See definition of
    the word “Turk” in Webster Dictionary. It describes Turks as a cruel, brutal and domineering person. Cruelty and… are built in your DNA. Once upon of the time, an Armenian boy was sitting on the one of
    the sidewalks of Istanbul [islombol] learning Armenian language. Red Sultan noticed him. Approached
    the young boy and asked him, what he was up to? The Armenian boy responded that
    he is learning Armenian Language. The Red Sultan asked the boy why he needs to
    learn Armenian Language? No one has right to speak any other language except
    Turkish. The boy responded that he is devoted Christian and he might go to haven
    after his death. The Red Sultan told the boy, you might go to hell then what?
    the boy responded that if that happens, he knows already how to speak Turkish! So
    my friend now you know your destiny. Keep practicing Turkish Language. Believe
    it or not I am learning Turkish because I believe one must know his brother’s language!

  213. ” Believe it or not I am learning Turkish because I believe one must know his brother’s language!”

    Papken,

    Why not come to Turkey? We are happy here with our Armenian brothers.And they are doing pretty good  . you can see many journalist, Artist, composer and so on  in Istanbul.
    Dont care  all hatred here in AW.You will see there is no problem here in Turkey for Hays.. And you will find many Armenians naming “most of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest.

    About that Red one, i do not want to make comment because in the past there happened some  bad things not only in Ottoman Empire but also in other countries.

    You are always Welcome to Turkey.

    Note: I made a search in AW for the DNA link…but…for some reason it is lost..maybe i missed. I will find it tomorrow. Now it is too late My brothers..Have a nice day/night.

  214. Necati,

    re.   AR, What do you mean ” western Armenia” ?  Oktemberyan, Artashat  and Yerevan ?

    Nope!  Oktemberyan, ARtashat and Yerevan are in CENTRAL ARMENIA.  

    You have any other questions? Don’t hesitate, bring them on!
     

  215. Necati-  Are you someone living in Turkey??  What is the  level of your education? I am sorry but how you put your thoughts and sentences together are simply childlike.. it reads just like if it was a child who wrote it.. very incoherent…I wonder sometimes how people with your mental capability has the audacity to come here and teach Armenians something… Your best bet is to continue to dream like you agreed.. because besides that I doubt you will get anywhere….sorry for being to abrupt…

    I am sorry Necati– would you give us some statistics where you claim

     And you will find many Armenians naming “most of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest

    Are you trying to lie to yourself or are you completely in ignorance about Armenians being pretty good in Turkey.. You must have been smoking the hookah too long “my brother”.. (i put that in quotes because i don’t see you as my brother… i am just pointing out how ridiculeous you sound when you use such words …

    You and gazillion of you don’t measure up to one Avery.. thank your lucky stars that you even have the honor to be on the same pages and reading his own written comments………p

    Gayane

  216. Gor: I wrote yesterday:  If one looks at the way the ICTJ phrased it, the criteria they used,  it is by the way very hard to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria or the Circassians in the Caucasus also suffered genocide. Unquote.
    Gor, true what you said was: No national liberation struggle or freedom-fighting proceeds bloodless.unquote.

    But i believe ,my challenge to you is still there. the reactionary Turks, when asked about the Armenian fate will say: No national liberation struggle or freedom-fighting proceeds bloodless.unquote. Now the situation has some differences if we talk about a comparison of Armenians and Turkish Bulgarians/bulgarian Turks. However, remember that we are talking about the suffering of innocent civilians. If the Cossacks, the Russian army and the Bulgarian bands had simply been concerned with the Ottoman army, I could understand you. By the way, maybe you forgot to comment on the Circassians?
    And please do not answer except by looking at the reasoning in the ICTJ and try to fit in other names of groups that were killed or destroyed in another way, not  necessarily the whole group, as you knwo very well.

  217. No Gayane, I am not leaving the AW, but possibly I may leave you as a discussant because I see nowhere that you relate to what I actually say. As you see, gor relates to someting I said and he was right in correcting me. This is my idea of dialogue, and the idea of dialogue in the civilized world. I am not critical of all you say, just as Boyajian once said: Gayane, sometimes you can be so funny. I agree. But I’d like you to be more discussant ans less cheer-leader from time to time. Best wishes from your friend Ragnar. I will concentrate on following up Boyajian’s invitation about what to DO to obtain justioce for Armenians. I already presented some points….. 

  218. AR,

    I checked all the maps in internet but all says what i say..Could you please give me an official link ?

    Anyway, i found more interesting one , written by a group of  Armenian  scientists.

    Here :

    Thursday, December 24, 2009

    Cansu ÇAMLIBEL
    YEREVAN – Hürriyet
    Turks and Armenians are genetically linked to each other, Armenian scientists say, calling for a joint research with their Turkish colleagues on the genetic similarities. European politicians, who have supported the recent normalization efforts, will also back the project, they say

    While Ankara and Yerevan struggle to ease long-standing tension that has divided the two neighbors for years, a discovery about genes appears to remind everyone how close the two nations actually are.

    Armenian scientists said they observed high genetic matching between the two nations during their research on leukemia.

    “Turks and Armenians were the two societies throughout the world that were genetically close to each other.” Savak Avagian, director of Armenia’s bone marrow bank, said in an interview with daily Hürriyet.
    Calling on his Turkish colleagues to examine the genetic similarities of the two nations in addition to asking for funds from the European Union, Avagian said he believes European politicians, who have supported the recent normalization efforts between Turkey and Armenia, would also back the project.
    Genetic research in 1998 also supported the Armenian scientists’ findings. A project titled “The Genetic Relations between Mediterranean Communities,” prepared by three Spanish scholars from the molecular biology division of Complutense University in Madrid, defines the Turks and Armenians as two branches with the same genetic origin.
    However, Avagian said few people know the genetic similarities between Turks and Armenians. “The high ratio that we observed in bone marrow matching supports our thesis. I am sure everybody will be surprised when they hear this scientific truth.”
    Marrow cooperation
    The Armenian Marrow Bank has 15,000 Armenian donors in its records and is cooperating with 59 other banks through the World Marrow Donor Association.
    Mihran Nazeretian, chief doctor of the bank, defined the institution’s mission as trying to “discover whether there is an equivalence of cells between Armenian donors and a patient living elsewhere in the world.”
    “The patient’s ethnic background, citizenship, or political and religious views are not important at all,” Nazeretian said, signaling his willingness to cooperate with Turkish marrow banks.
    Avagian said he visited Turkey in 2005 and met with the executives of marrow banks in both Ankara and Istanbul with an offer of a joint project. But Turkish officials were not interested in Avagian’s offer and applied alone for EU funds on marrow research. In the end, their request was rejected.
    Noting the more convenient atmosphere between Turkey and Armenia, Avagian said: “If we knock on the doors of the European Union together, they would consider our request twice. Now, there is a political motivation, too. The bloc has already voiced support for the normalization talks between the two nations and I bet many politicians would support such medical research.”
    Nazeretian said they would provide marrow without question if a Turkish patient would match with one of their Armenian donors.
    The doctor told of his experience with Turkish patients, saying: “From Armenia, we found 43 matches with the bank in Istanbul and five with the one in Ankara and we made immediate inquiries. However, nobody responded. Unfortunately none of those matching results led to a marrow transplant.”
    Nazeretian said there might be various reasons for the failure. “Maybe the patient found another donor in Turkey or the patient was lost before our response,” he said.
    He also said there have been Armenian matches for Turks living in Germany as well but that no matches had resulted in transplants. “My only wish is for a transplant between an Armenian donor and a Turkish patient to happen one day,” he said.

    Now all i can say is : sometimes brothers make fight eachother at home..but still brothers.The next day they will forget it. Dont you think so my Hayturk brothers ?

  219. Gayane,

    I know we have time difference .So you must have been  sleeping  at this time. But when ever i write some here in AW you reply in 1 min.

    You never sleep ?  Sleep is good for women.dont forget to sleep 8 hours a day.

  220. oh..My Education ?

    Not too high.I am one of the most uneducated people in Turkey.

     You know my teacher in first school was getting almost crazy everyday because of me.Fortunately  She was appointed to somewhere else…

  221. Monastras,read the treaty of Sevres:
    Quote
    The punishment of the crime of genocide – whether called exterminations, evacuations, mass atrocities, annihilation, liquidations or massacres – as well as the obligation to make restitution to the survivors of the victims, were envisaged by the victorious Allies of the First World War and included in the text of the Peace Treaty of Sèvres of 10 August 1920 between the Allies and the Ottoman Empire (2). This Treaty contained not only a commitment to try Turkish officials for war crimes committed by Ottoman Turkey against Allied nationals (3) , but also for crimes committed by Turkish authorities against subjects of the Ottoman Empire of different ethnic origin, in particular the Armenians, crimes which today would be termed genocide, and would also fall under the more broadly generic term “crimes against humanity”.Unquote
    Already Turkey is charged.

  222. Gayane, thanks for watching my back.

    Don’t worry though: when  certain Turks, hysterical and foaming at the mouth, call me ‘radical extremist’, I feel a great sense of accomplishment. 

    “Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. And moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.” Barry Goldwater 1964.
     

  223. ragnar naess,   I will readily refute your artificially cooked-up ‘comparison’ between the expulsion of and associated atrocities against the occupying Bulgarian Turks (there is no such a thing as ‘Turkish Bulgarians’) and the premeditated, government-planned and executed campaign of race annihilation of Armenians, whenever you accept that you misrepresented me by putting in my mouth the words I never uttered, namely: “Gor says:these things happen’”.  I missed the Circassians by accident, I admit, because I concentrated on Bulgarian Turks, but you conveniently avoided an apology for ascribing to me the words I never said.  Whenever you take them back, we’ll go on.

  224. VTiger, I agree with your thinking on the Treaty of Sevres.  It clearly indicts the Turks of crimes against humanity and intended to extract a punishment/reparation from Turkey.  Whether or not it was ratified, the historical record of a determination of guilt exists. 

  225.  ..many Armenians naming “most of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest.”

    Necati, you missed my points. First of all, the reason Avery and all real Armenians, including me, feel to you and your so called “many Armenians” is that we have determined to fight for
    justice. We know for sure that justice is our side. One day we would have our day. People like Avery live forever. Our future generations will read these comments and they will discover themselves who they are. I am planning to return to my Western Armenia not Turkey.
    See you in Western Armenia!

  226. Hi Boyajian, The Sevres Treaty not only it still exists, but it is a very legitimate highly regarded document, because it was signed by the most advanced and powerful European nations as well as Russia and most importantly it was also signed by Turkey.

  227. Hi Papken, Avery has the blood of our powerful, highly intelligent and legendary forefather and the leaders of our past; mind you we bear the same blood in our veins as well.  Something we could all be proud of in the memory of our grand past and until today my friend. 

    Tell my Papken, someone by the name of Vanoush jested with me recently, because I mentioned on a few of my posts earlier that we have had in the Turkish Republic a great many Churches, say about 300,000 of them.  I went along trusting the numbers with a high ranked priest’s writings on the web.  Then afterwards I checked the numbers with the above mentioned Churches and it was only in the thousands.  Do you or anyone in here kow the real number of the Armenian Churches plus the Monasteries in Turkey on or before 1915, or could it be that perhaps the high ranking priest was quoting the numbers of all the Christian Churches in Turkey before 1915 (including the Syriacs, Greeks, Pontiacs, Armenians and Assyrians)?  I’ll appreciate knowing the true facts so that I’ll know for sure.  Thanks.

  228. Hi Seervart, if you hear of any news or research related to the Treaty of Sevres please post it here.  I will do the same.  I would love to read any comments regarding its power and significance from a legal and historical perspective.  As I said above, the determination of Turkey’s guilt has already been made.  We need now to use every avenue available to us to receive our just compensation which I believe will strenghthen RA in the long run.  Turkey has an obligation to meet.

    I think it is fair to suggest that the Nuremburg Trials were built on the foundations first developed with the drafting of the Treaty of Sevres.

  229. thank you Papken.
    thank you Seervart (again).

    It’s an honor.  the same genes handed down to us all from our ancestors imperceptibly compel us all to do what  we do for our people. Some of us have more time to contribute than others;  some of us have more funds to contribute  than others: most important thing is that  we all participate in the effort to the best of our abilities.

    Just the same, I don’t consider what I do worthy of notice by my compatriots here: I am not on the LOC facing death every day from Azeri snipers, like our  Artsakhtsi men.

  230. VTiger

    Yes most poweful nations tried to impose this treaty on the Turks but The treaty of Sevres was the death warrant of the Turkish nation. That’s why the Turks screwed this pieces of paper and threw in the dust bin. Some posters in the Armenian media regularly quote this dead treaty. Bu they do not realize that this baby was dead  when born 

  231. Monastras,
    Remember that we are discussing International Court of Justice…Even if the Treaty of Sevres was not ratified it does not mean that the Ottomans did not commit the Genocide.
    Furthermore there are the court cases of the new Turkish republic against the Young Turks… the list goes on & on & I can carry on for pages & page… but I’m working to make a living at the same time… you google & read & it is enlightning if it interests you.
    As said before for us the Genocide is a fact & indisputable.If you have a problem with it you just push your government to apply to the ICJ.

  232. “..mind you we bear the same blood in our veins as well.
    Dear Seervart, of course I don’t mind. All of us who care about our national interests are real Armenians. I wrote “like Avery” not just Avery. All of you have the real Armenian blood. Yes Mernem jes ameneen hamar! Tser chave tough yes tanem. As to exact number of churches,
    I don’t know and I don’t know if any one knows yet. Soon a Ph.D. student will
    come up to correct answer. I am also looking for exact number and the name of
    our soldiers who died in World War I and II. My dream is to built a monument
    for them in every Armenian church. If any one of you are interested to work on
    this project let me know. As to Treaty of Severs, it is true that it is not
    part of international law, however, the crime against humanity committed by
    Ottomans has been admitted in this document. It is a confession of a criminal witnessed
    by very credible people. We need a national movement to create a core to
    enforce the charges brought against Turks. Eight years ago, I went to law
    school just to pursue this goal.

  233. Yes Boyajian, I will let you know if I hear anything about our rights of the Sevres Treaty of course.  You know a while ago, but not too long ago there was an article right in here in the AW about both the Sevres Treaty and I believe about the Wilson Arbitration Award as well.  I feel that there is a good possiblity that our leaders or at least some of our leaders they may be in the process of pursuing it.  I pray and hope that this would be right.  If it so, then surely in time we’ll hear about it.

    You are quite right, I mean when finally we do receive our just compensation from the Turks, it can only help a great deal and certainly not hurt both Armenia proper and Artsakh; as it is all interconnected and meshed together for our just cause.

  234. “That’s why the Turks screwed this piece of paper and threw in the dust bin.”
     
    Yes, otherwise Turks would have been held responsible for occupying the lands of native peoples and physically exterminating them in the last years of the Ottoman empire and during the first years of the Republican Turkey. By a sheer luck, namely: the emergence of the Bolshevik Russia in the early 1920s, to whom Mustafa Kemal first pledged allegiance and then screwed them in a typically Turkish sly way, Turks could preserve as much lands as possible from the crumbled Ottoman empire, already emptied from Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians in the acts of genocide. However, Woodrow Wilson’s Mandate on Armenia still exists and the 1923 Lausanne Treaty that was signed after the Treaty of Sèvres, has no Republic of Armenia as a signatory. After the demise in 1991 of the Soviet Union, which signed the Lausanne Treaty, the only treaty that bears official signatures of both Turkey and the Republic of Armenia is the Treaty of Sèvres. Therefore, by no means is this treaty “in the dust bin”. Unless you’re daydreaming, of course…

  235. Ragnar- you said this

    Gayane, sometimes you can be so funny. I agree. But I’d like you to be more discussant ans less cheer-leader from time to time.

    Of course I can be funny.. I deal with you clowns who clown yourselves on these pages and pretend you knowit all.. and I can’t help but be funny…:) Guess what??? Know it alls will get ridiculed if their arguments are ridiculeous to the core.. and you Ragnar present some outrageous and ridiculous arguments..Sometimes I wonder about you…especially when you give me advice..LOL . I am sorry and who are you to tell me what I can and can’t do??? I believe I am on OUR OWN ARMENIAN pages… it does say Armenian Weekly right?   Thanks for the advice but I would say stick to what you know best..and that is  ” How much can I confuse Armenians with my messed up ideas, throught processes, data…ect…ect..” 

    But I will take you advice and sleep on it because you took the time to write it…now a bit of advice from me…..take it or leave it…

    “Please make sure you use less google to educate yourself about my people, Genocide and Armenian History, and spend less time with your Turkish friends to gather up data for your book but spend more time in NON-Turkish govt offices and their archives, eye witnesses accounts, other publications written by NON- Turkish denialists..” you will see that it is a whole different world.. … … 

      I am sorry the Ambassador of Turkey, did not know we are required to have discussions with you..but do you mind telling my friends and everyone what you thought they were doing all this time??? (I won’t include myself because apparently I am not having a discussion with you)?? I guess they were just sitting around  dwindling their fingers right?? WRONG. You know what they were doing Ragnar??? They were trying to EDUCATE YOU… you yourself said you are not an expert and don’t know much about Armenians… but obviously you turned out to be a  bad guest.. because you have ignored, overlooked, mistook my friends attempts to give you PLENTY OF DETAILED and VERY ACCURATE information… and now YOU are telling ME and rejecting EVERYONE ELSE who DID give you GREAT discussions to be more discussant??? LOL  guess I have to turn the tables and tell you sir that you are hillarious…lol

    Ragnar… you do leave the pages once you feel defeated because every attempt you make you are shot down …and instead of embarassing yourself more, you feel it is necessary to bail out with such excuses… i need more time because i have so many projects going on.. i am working on a leaflet, I am having a hard time discussing with Gayane because she i just TOOOOOOOOOOO CHEERY and not discussant…. aggghhh.. so tired of your games Ragnar….but unlike you, I will not give up… even with my Cheerleader self….:)

    Have a good day sir…

    Gayane      

      

  236. Ragnar–  my friend asked you for an apology.. and yet to receive it… please be a man and apologize…

    ………When gor says “these things happen”, I shudder.”
     
    ragnar naess,   you owe me an apology. I never uttered such words. If you refer me to any such words in my comments, I’ll take my words to you back. If you won’t, then you’ll apologize for misrepresenting my comments. Fair deal?

  237. Apres Papken jan… I am absolutely interested in your project.. even though I work hard and not make enough money, I am always ready for my country… I would love to get yours, Avery, Seervart, Gor e-mail.. not sure what is the best to do that…

    Gor jan and Avery jan– thank you for sticking it to them… shat lav zgatsi…. 

    Seervart jan and Boyajian jan– yes dzes shat em sirum..:)    

    Gayane  

  238. You are welcomed Avery. You are well regarded here, not only by myself but many oterhs as well, because you are intelligent, patriotic, vigilant and you devote a great deal of your time setting the records straight with denialist Turks that lurks around on these columns.  And I must say I find our Gayane to be on the same page as you!

    Avery, You and I do not necessarily have to go and fight as our wonderful men of arms are doing it every day of their precious lives for the sake of our Artsakhian lands.  But enlightening people with your wisdom and your words, (Turks or otherwise) is a powerful thing too.  Don’t forget the power of words and of the mind.  Enthusing other Armenians and other people from various nationalities is a work of, «Հայապահպանում» as we say it in Armenian, and that is vitally important.

  239. Necati– thank you for thinking of my well being…but i have my family and my friends both on and off of these pages to do that.. so instead of writing dumb comments, why don’t you think about how you can apologize for you represent.. the biggest denialist…and acknolwedge that what your barbaric ancestors did was crime against humanity.. especially against my people….. maybe then I would think you truly care about me.. otherwise go back to your dream….. 

  240. VTiger

     I wonder why only two people answered my very crucial question. You and the other guy answered half heartedly and your answer was unconvincing and probably you didn’t believe what you said to me. Why will I push the turkish goverment to take the issu to the court while it isn’t my interest. It is your interest. Let me tell you an example right. I was working for a company in Turkey and was sacked unfairly. The company who sacked me didn’t take me to court to find out whether or not they are responsible for my dismissal. I had to go to court and made the company to  pay me for my  unfair dismissal.If you still pretend not to understand what I am saying. I can not help you 

  241.  Monastras—it is a mute point of explaining anything to you and your peanut gallery….

    But your crucial (but in reality a nonsense question) was answered many times.. you people are just tooo slow to understand and get something huh?  You must be because i don’t know how many times one need to repeat himself or herself… when you are a denialist, it is hard to get anything through the denialists head.. instead of playing a little sneak, why don’t you admit that deep down, you know the truth..you know everything that you currently have and enjoy are ALL DUE to those who were raped, barbarically murdered and marched to their own death… if your barbaric ancestors did not attempt to wipe out an entire race (Unlucky to them, their attempt failed even though we lost a great deal of human life), you woulld not have a tongue 10 ft long.. it is because you sit on other’s wealth and riches… if we took all that away, what will remain is what your ancestors started with.. NOTHING of their own…jus nomadic and poor group of humans…. now you get it??? 

    It is time for your denialists and your ugly govt to man up and fess up and pay up and move on…..

    Gayane

  242. Necati and all other denialists— just yet another example to show how much love and friendship your Turkish brethren illustrate?? Pay attention to the bolded sections… I say you denialists are all without a doubt danger to society especially Armenians.. you will take the first chance to do the same as your ancestors did to mine… oh another note… guess your denialists posts do get published.. but I have yet to see mine on your anti-Armenian Turkish sites.. .guess AW is more open minded, and freedom of speech advocate than yours.. read and divulge yourself in your brethren sub-tribunal way of thinking… not too ar off than yours..

    Mark
    August 16, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    I know this will never make it up to your commnet box, but i try anyways,
    You Armenians should go one and get a life and move on, this issue is a loosing battle for Amenians and if you are looking to future saying Turks have enemies and one day the whole World unite and do things to Turks as they do to Iraq, Libya and other places and once more us Armenians will get an other chance to stab the Turks from back and revolt inside like 1914 this time join other forces to claim land, you are dreaming,no conventional weapons would break the will of the Turkish people, as you will see very soon PKK and its suporters will be put to test and if it creates street by street figthing PKK suporters in Turkey will be marched to north Iraq or Syria like Armenians in 1915, and if you think that neclear stand off will put Turkey in termoil think again Turkey has nuclear weapons, and if lets say your dream will show his ugly head, then when you put the mouse in the corner you know what he does to cat, total nuclear blow up , so cut the this non sense and be truthful, and balme your grandperents for starting the figth by taking arms against the host nation with its enemies and doomd the rest of the innocent armenians, take responsibility no nation will denger their national unity and if you do not belive me go watch in Netfelix, Gellipollu, and see how Turks fight for more than a year defated England,French new zeland and Australia and african asian mercineries under what conditions, than you will understand what will become of your young generation of incase of new war starts,
    please get over this and stop forming your fragile union under the hatred of Turks and making ANCA employed with this non sense will get you nothing but more distruction
    Thank you and 4 Armenian young wonderful students works for me and I love every single one of them, but this issue is wrong to fight over   

  243. “..The company who sacked me didn’t take me to court ..
    Monastras, If you had defamed your company, it would have a valid cause of action against you. Here, according to Turks, Armenians are accusing whole nation for a heinous crime who claim in fact there were Turks that were murdered by Armenians. If it is false accusation, then Turks can take Armenians to court for defamation. Now, if you cannot understand what I am talking about, then I cannot help you.

  244. Necati,

    Instead of cheking out maps on the internet, you should ckeck out Mongolians and find out about their looks and appearances.  Then you should ask yourself: How did the Turks, the descendants of asiatic Mongolians, turned out to look like ARmenians?

    re.  Turks and Armenians are genetically linked to each other, Armenian scientists say, calling for a joint research with their Turkish colleagues on the genetic similarities.

    Necati, pay attention please.  The ARmenian scientist was trying to be not only academicaly correct but also ethicaly.  But if you want to be correct both academicaly and historicaly, then the only correct way of saying it is: Turks are geneticaly linked to ARmenians.  That will leave us with no unaswered qustions.  

    ARmenians look almost the same as we were in 10,000 BC  ;)

    ALSO,

    If you so like researching maps on the internet I will attach a link for your enlightenment.  Make sure you watch it all and again pay attention at the end to the oldest map that has been unearthed so far. (from 600 BC).  
    Oh yeah, also, ENJOY THE MUSIC Necati.

    http://youtu.be/Rws5YxPc16Y

      

  245. Necati,

    Instead of cheking out maps on the internet, you should ckeck out Mongolians and find out about their looks and appearances.  Then you should ask yourself: How did the Turks, the descendants of asiatic Mongolians, turned out to look like ARmenians?

    re.  Turks and Armenians are genetically linked to each other, Armenian scientists say, calling for a joint research with their Turkish colleagues on the genetic similarities.

    Necati, pay attention please.  The ARmenian scientist was trying to be not only academicaly correct but also ethicaly.  But if you want to be correct both academicaly and historicaly, then the only correct way of saying it is: Turks are geneticaly linked to ARmenians.  That will leave us with no unaswered qustions.  

    ARmenians look almost the same as we in 10,000 BC  ;)

    ALSO,

    If you so like researching maps on the internet I will attach a link for your enlightenment.  Make sure you watch it all and again pay attention at the end to the oldest map that has been unearthed. (from 600 BC).  
    Oh yeah, also, ENJOY THE MUSIC Necati.

    http://youtu.be/Rws5YxPc16Y

  246. @Mark, No this issue of pursuing our rights to have the Turkish belligerent government to accept their wrongs of denying the Armenian Genocide and subsequently pay reparations to Armenians that it is due to them; it will never be over.  Armenians all over the world will see to it that our rights are paid in full.   Don’t you ever forget that.

  247. Papken: ‘…. If any one of you are interested to work on this project let me know.’
    Count me in. I’ll contribute time, effort, funds (…most of the available funds go to Armenia and Artsakh, but I can usually scrounge up some more for a good cause)
    I have asked Admin to give you my email.
     
    Gayane: … I would love to get yours, Avery, Seervart, Gor e-mail..’
    I have asked Admin to give you my email.

  248. Avery jan-  I got it .. Thank you :)  I have asked mine to be given to you and Papken, Gor and Seervart as well..

    Good one AR.. Apres.. Yes Monastras loves to use the internet for his purposes.. like translating Armenian into English, looking up maps that he still can’t find… so not surprised that he is lost in the whole information technology world…lol thank you for providing the links……
    I would also love to have your e-mail as well…

    Astvats mer het…

    Gayane     

  249. Gor jan, Fortunately I understand Eastern Armenian as well and I am now listening to it.  Thank you very much for the info.

  250. Dears Gor and Boyajian,

    Here’s a link of the entire document of the “Treaty of Peace Between The Allied & Associated Powers and Turkey Signed at Sevres – August 10 , 1920
    Note
    : Includes Peace Treaty of Versailles 28 June, 1919.

    http://groong.usc.edu/treaties/sevres.html

    You’ll find more sites in here:

    Section I, Articles 1 – 260 – World War I Document Archive

    Section II, Annex II, and Articles 261 – 433 – World War I Document archive.

  251. Boyajian, Pay special attention of the Sevres Treaty Link of Articles 88 to 93 and also to Article 145. 

    It is noteworthy that although the Sevres Treaty hasn’t been legally imposed on Turkey, nevertheless all the trio major powers: England, France and Italy acknowledged the calamities that befell Armenians during 1915 and beyond by the turkish CUP and that’s why all three imposed onto the US and hence the Wilson Arbitration Award by President Woodraw Wilson was implemented, but unfortunately the Senate didn’t verify it.  However, the Turkish government accepted the borders of Armenia and Turkey of the Wilsonian Armenia at that time.  furthermore, until today the USA hasn’t and still does not accept Turkey’s borders as it stands today.  That is also a fact.

  252. “…no conventional weapons would break the will of the Turkish people,..

    Mark, remmber we are living in cyber age not in a conventional age. I promise you, one day when you open your laptop, it would blow up in your face following a message “I am an Armenian.”

       
      

  253. Boyajian jan.. if you don’t mind.. I would love to have your e-mail as well…

    Et dzevi menq bolorov karox enq irar het kapnvenq….

    AR jan- mersi.. looking forward to it..:)

    Gayane

  254. Raffi
    I appreciate your enthusiasm and your efforts. Good luck with your endeavor.  I think that the church, schools and property documentation has been done already. However,  one issue has not been documented; and here it is: As you know, for hundreds of years, the Armenians were not alowed to bear arms. So when the new constitution was approved, and the wwI started the Armenians were instructed to register for the draft and inducted into the Turkish armed forces. The Armenian male population joined  with enthusiasm. All the military age men were in uniform.  Then, the CUP was able to take over and orderred the disarming and murder of the Armenian men in the military. I am sure that the archives, pay records, training rosters, are all available. If you want to compile a list, consider composing one of all the patriotic Armenians that had enrolled in the Ottoman military, that were subsequently murdered by their officers. That should be about the whole of draft age Armenian male population.  This dastardly act  alone should be a source of shame to the Turkish military. As a veteran, I am outraged by this cowardly crime.

  255. gor, I apologize for mistakenly saying that you had said that “these things happen”. But you still fail to relate to the way ICTJ handled the question. If some people are invaders who came 500 years earlier is not relevant for the application of the Cenocide convention. Regarding subgroups, if the Bosniaks of Srebrenitsa and environs constitute part of a protected group, the Turks in bulgaria also does it. But I will not pester you with this if you are not interested.

  256. gayane
    necati is trying to be nice and you answer in the most negative way. What kind of manners do you have? just pouring out negative characterizations….

  257. Boyajian
    you suggested I should not focus on the quality of dialogue but insted talk about what to do to further justice. “Then lets take if from there” you said. I produced a long text. By the way I am wondering about the strategy of reclaiming churches. I now see that the main Armenian church in Diyarbakir/Dikranagert is being restored, but apparently not with Turkish money as was the case with Sourp Khatch. Do you know anything about it? Is the aim simply to restore churches or to have the Turkish government initiate a restoration campaign which they really should do?

  258. Monastras,from your given example what I understood is that yoiur ex-company = Turkey & you = Armenia/Armenian.I’m touched,you have grasped what it means to be a victim.

  259. Thanks Seervart and Gayane for your kindness.
     
    Ragnar, I see you offered an answer to my question.  You sure enjoy to argue!  You want Armenians to argue with Turks some more.   And you can be sure we will.   
     
    But as many here have tried to say to you before, Armenians feel insulted, irked at the suggestion that an historic fact has to be proven to the perpetrator nation.  It is admitting that Turks have succeeded at their game of diversion and denial and have turned a once known fact into a question.  It is more proof that evil abounds and dominates rather than goodness and fairness.  It is discouraging and we have a knee-jerk reaction against playing this denial game and giving credence to the unscrupulous liars.  And yet we do what we must, because we have no other choice.  But don’t expect to make friends with Armenians when we see you admiring this cheap Turkish carpet of lies and denial as if it even compares to the Armenian one woven of eye-witness accounts, Talaat’s and Ataturk’s own admissions, and internationally arbitrated determinations of guilt and punishment.  
     
    Your comment about the ‘cycle of violence’ is a odd.  It doesn’t support anything other than the idea that Turks were so bothered by losses in the Balkans that as a whole nation, they succumbed to mob mentality and savagely sought revenge upon innocent, unarmed people.  Usually it is the duty of government to prevent mob rule, but of course in this case, the government was the mob leader trying to win a ‘turf war.’  Is that what you meant, Ragnar?

  260. re:  gayane
    necati is trying to be nice and you answer in the most negative way. What kind of manners do you have? just pouring out negative characterizations….’

     
    By your leave, Gayane, I’ll retort to this post by Mr. Naess, since I am a little more familiar with the poster Necati Genis.
     
    Mr. Genis deserves no consideration  from any Armenian poster here.
    Mr. Genis:
    Has  insulted (personal  attack)  the honorable  editor of ArmenianWeekly on these pages.
    Has libeled Ms. Nanore Barsoumian of AW by falsely accusing her of things she has not written.
    Posts Anti-Armenian comments @TodaysZaman, e.g. advocating invasion of Artsakh aka Nagorno-Karabagh.
     
    Posts derogatory comments against Armenians @TodaysZaman, e.g. [(Necati@J.L Bonham Oh well, he is an Armenian. need to say more ?)
    (J.L Bonham , 10 August 2011 , 00:13
    I find the article very interesting….Mr. Esayan seems to be making a case to move Turkey back toward a religious based governing system, ie a Kalif)] (In reference to TodaysZaman columnist Mr. Markar Esayan.)
     
    Deliberately cuts-and-pastes small portions of posts – mine in particular – here and @TodaysZaman to create a false image of posters, the aim being to paint Armenians as bigots, and stir up hatred towards Armenians.
    There is a long list of his transgressions, but this is sufficient for now.
     
    So before you guys lecture us on anything, do your homework.
    We don’t get nasty with people for no reason. We are usually very polite and accommodating.  
    But if you guys keep pushing us, we gonna push back. Hard.

  261. Ragnar, patience is a virtue.  We Armenians are developing quite an art out of it.   But we have an advantage by virtue of the fact that we are such an ancient civilization.
     
    Also please read all of Necati’s comments and you will understand why Gayane does not read kindness in his words.  Sarcasm, racism, Turkish ‘politeness’, maybe.  Experience is the best teacher, wouldn’t you agree? 

  262. I saw necati’s comment on Today’s Zaman & what a cry baby he is.If he cannot stand the heat he should not participate.Be a man necati & face the consequences of your rhetorics.

  263. ragnar naess,   I’d agree that if some people are invaders who came 500 years ago is not relevant for the application of the Genocide convention. Historically, the Turks in Bulgaria were descendants of Turkic invaders who came from Mongolian steppes through Asia Minor across the narrows of the Dardanelles and the Bosporus following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans in the early 15th century. What you appear to be missing is whether this people were subjected to deliberate extermination as a group or they became victims of atrocities during a war. In other words, as per the 1948 Genocide convention, whether it was a “deliberate infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.” You conveniently forget that atrocities against Bulgarian Turks were committed during the wars (Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 and Balkan Wars of 1912-1913) in which ethnic Turks were a warring side. As Russian forces and Bulgarian volunteers advanced in 1878 against the Ottoman Turks, they inflicted atrocities on the segments of local Turk population. Bear in mind that the Ottoman Turks have devastated Stara Zagora and the surrounding region, which provoked atrocities against ethnic Turks. The Ottoman army has also attacked Turk non-combatants and usied Turk refugees to shield their retreat. Even the infamous Justin McCarthy, who is known as having a pro-Turkish bias, admits that most of the ethnic Turks became victims of battle casualties and only then murders by Bulgarian and Russian troops. And, certainly, many Turks perished of hardship during their flight in war conditions. Balkan Wars of 1912-13, likewise, were wars during which the Balkan nations, Bulgarians included, carried out national liberation struggles against the Turks for the re-possession of the European territories of the Ottoman Empire that were invaded and colonized by the Turks. The wars resulted in war atrocities and the speedy expulsion of the Turks from occupied lands in Europe. Compare the atrocities against Turks who represented a warring side in the Russo-Turkish War and the Balkan Wars with the atrocities against Armenians who were not involved in any war, nor were anywhere near the war zones, and represented no warring side. In which instance, in your view, the “infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part” was deliberate and in which instance the infliction was not deliberate, i.e. war-related? Answer to this question will provide you with an understanding as to why the Genocide convention cannot be applied to Balkan Turks.

  264. Well said Gor jan.. Well said…

    Avery jan– thank you for replying to Ragnar..I will always be happy if you reply on behalf of me than someon like Karekin.. (sorry Karekin.. you yourself made yourself such)…Thank you for providing examples to demonstrate Necati’s just loving humility…(THE FRIENDLY and LOVING NECATI).. LOL I was laughing when I read Ragnar’s comment to me….

    Necati- i hope you get the point now.. Avery did a great job providing you examples.. maybe you are very bad reading between lines because Necati’s messages always have some sort of poison toward us ARmenians.. here are few other things he said.. maybe you can see the sarcasm in them.. or accordig to you.. he is trying to be genuine and nice… LOL funny indeed Ragnar.. I should suggest you be less funny and more real Ragnar…(took this line from you.. remember when you old me to be less Cheerleadry and more discussant?? Yeahh…

    1. Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?)

    2. A nice day (night?) to all Hayturks

    3. You know, i like you Armenians very much ,no matter which hysteric feelings
    you have for us Turks. And i know you Hays also like Us Turks appearently
    because many of you visit Turkish news papers everday. NO? or is it a Stockholm syndome ?

    4.  Dont care all hatred here in AW.You will see there is no
    problem here in Turkey for Hays.. And you will find many Armenians naming “most
    of people in AW” (like Avery) as radical extremest

    5. You never sleep ? Sleep is good for women.dont forget to sleep 8 hours a day

    These are JUST from these pages.. so please spare me Ragnar .. it is really cute that you are looking after your buddy but don’t baby him for the wrong reason.. i know he acts like a baby.. and you feel you have to act like his daddy.. hopefully the e-mail swap between you two happened maybe you can teach him how to communicate properly and with valid points vs with sarcasm, Anti-Armenian lingo, and just plain ” i am smarter than you people even with my primitative thinking” because if he does and if any one of you denialists do, as Avery said..we will push back and hard… hope you understand why i write the way i do now..  

    and to add extra bonus to the list of loving, caring, thoughtful that our Turkish posters love to indulge us is this from our own Monastras..

    Monastras
    Comment:
    Gayane,

    Mine is a Turkish female name. I came across another post of this woman. She apparently grabbed a fine Armenian man. She loves her hubby so much if we believe her Turkish ethnicity. I am glad that a Turkish woman grabbed a fine Armenian man. But you should never trust what she says. She might change her mind. I am also glad that their children will be supporting us. However, I read somebody’s post here pretending to be Turkish and asking the other Turks to adopt the Sever Treaty. Guess, who he was?

    We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal. 

     

         

  265. VTiger jan- you said it right.. I also read Necati’s comments on Turkish sites.. and they ain’t loving and nice … but then Ragnar does not know this much because he only visits our sites…right Ragnar?????

    Gayane

  266. Necatik  —-Is there anything else that Turkey can do, except for bombing and mass murdering other nations?

  267. necati the cry baby,my innocent massacred forefathers spirits in heaven are smiling.Their curses before being butchered are coming true.

  268. My apologies– want to correct a name error.. In my above comment where i provided examples of Necati’s niceness, I meant to put Ragnar (addressing it to Ragnar and not Necati).. As Necati already knows what he said…

    Karo jan– exellent question…

    Gayane
     

  269. this time  with the support of long range artillary in Turkish side of Border..No sleep for PKK terrorists tonight…same as last…OMG..so noisy!

  270. Typical Turkish (mis)behaviour: PKK guerillas kill Turk troops in uniform who are out in the field hunting  for them (Kurds), and Turks respond by mass-bombing quote ‘PKK Camps’. If  Turks know where the PKK camps are, why don’t they helicopter-in special forces troops and do battle with PKK guerrillas right there ?
     
     
    The answer is they don’t know where PKK camps are. They are just blindly bombing areas where Kurds generally  live and probably just killing Kurd civilians. They’ll later claim they killed X number of ‘PKK terrorists’. They  will also claim the retaliation was total success. Same song and dance they’ve been doing for 30 years.
     
     
    On a side note: an interesting item not discussed widely. As the Hurriyet reported, the Turks that  were killed were special forces troops – the best of the best in any army. Here is the quote from Hurriyet: [“The soldiers were killed as a result of four mine explosions targeting special forces teams at two different points along the Hakkari-Çukurca road, the Hakkari Governor’s Office said in a statement. The attack also wounded 15 soldiers.”]
     
     
     I don’t know what kind of  troops were the previous 13 that were ambushed killed in battle with PKK a couple of weeks ago.
    The interesting item is that PKK had accurate intelligence that these guys (SF troops) were coming, they had intelligence which route they would most likely take, so they laid anti-personnel mines right there and set up a classic ambush. Maybe my prediction that long knives would come out is happening sooner than I expected.
     
     
    So who are the long-knives ? It is highly unlikely that Kurds would have been able to penetrate Turkish military command, so the intel must have come from people who have the ability to penetrate Turkish MIT and/or military leadership – most likely Israel/Mossad. Could also be US NSA sigint passed to PKK via Israel. US and Israel are not happy at all with ascendant Islamism in Turkey and particularly Islamist AKP Party’s massive popularity in Turkey.
     
     
    Things are getting “Curiouser and curiouser”, said Alice in the Wonderland.

  271. LOL Avery- Loved it…

    Necati- when you send links, be so smart enough to send it in english.. not a big fan of Turkish media nor i understand the language.. so f you to send a message, do it in a way that everyone can understand .. if not, then don’t waste our pages with nonsense links…

    Thank you
    Gayane     

  272. Avery, You are right.  Israel and probably the US don’t particularly like the Islamist regime in turkey.  I think they prefer the Kemalist regime much more.  Let’s see what’s going to happen.

  273. VTiger, Btw, I like your name.  What you justly said above about our martyrs’ spirits stands true.

    You know, when Krikor Zohrab was taken into the interior of turkey to be butchered in 1915, he knew about his fate, then he told the gendarme who was assigned to kill him that if he kills him, after his death “Krikor Zohrab’s” spirit won’t leave him alone.  Indeed after Zohrab was butchered, the mighty Krikor Zohrab’s spirit haunted that turkish gendarme until his death and he died soon after he has killed Krikor Zohrab.

  274. Turks used Kurds in murdering Armenians. Now, Turks cannot murder Armenian anymore. They are murdering Kurds. This is a partial justice. Islam, Kurds and Armenians are going to tear Turkey apart. When Western Armenia is liberated and Republic of Kurdistan has established, Turks might have peace in the region.

  275. FRIENDS, please use the word “murder,” instead  of “kill”, when you are talking about our martyrs destinies. Because, some killings could be justified, for example self-defense. Thank you.

  276. And all this, is happening in the holy month of ramadan.
    Those lands are haunted with the spirits of my butchered unburied forefathers & they will remain haunted until the day of reckoning.

  277. Ragnar, regarding the reclaiming of Christian churches, I know only what I read in our papers.  But after the ‘museumization’ of Sourp Khatch, do you really wonder that those in charge of the restoration of the church in Dikrangerd would prefer to find private funding for this project. 

  278. boyajian
    Yes, the Sourp Khatch seems to have been envisaged as a compromise by the Turkish government, in order to meet critique that the Armenian heritage is not taken care of and at the same time giving it status as a museum, because this is how the TC government sees it, and to appease their own anti-armenians nationalists. After the criticism from many quarters a religious ceremony – one day – was allowed, and after still more debate a cross was reinstated in the church. Taken as an attempt to make good the confiscation and neglect of Armenian churches, what the TC government hasd done is meagre indeed, and I can very well understand Armenians that prefer to make a similar restoration of the church in Dikranagert/Diyarbakir a private enterprise. However, the Sourp Khatch may be a beginning. But the drawback of a private project is that the moral and pecuniary debt of the Turkish government is not adressed. The aim should be to have the Turkish government finance the restoration of Armenian churches and then hand them over to the Armenian community. — In Bosnia the international community rebuilt houses on a grand scale in muslim areas in respublika srpska (the serbian part of bosnia), in order to honour the memory of the muslims killed in the genocidal Serb campaign. This area was also the site of some of the most widespread Serb campaigns to rape Bosniak women to have them bear “serb” children. Actually very few Bosniaks have returned to these houses –  the memories seem to be too traumatic and they still fear the Serb neighbours – I saw this area  when I was engaged in a project on the situation of children returning to Bosnia after having spent several years in Europa in families who applied for asylum. It was a very uncanny sight, lots of nice houses completely derserted, with bushes and high grass growing around them in a wilderness, but still a monument to preserve memory about the atrocities committed. – So even if the Armenians in Diyarbakir only count a handful people today – if any at all, an official restoration of the church would be a monument to the remembrance of the near total extermination of the Armenians in the city in late may 1915, as this is described in the books of Ugur Ungor and Maurice Kevorkian, to a great extent based on the writings of Tomas Mgrditchian, employed in the British consulate at the time. He escaped to Egypt. – As you maybe remember I wrote more than one year ago, I organized a course in English for human rights activists in Diyarbakir, and I brought up the fate of the Armenians to the Kurds participating in the course. “Yes, we know they were mistreated!” one of them said and all looked down, but they were very unwilling to pursue the theme. So it makes sense to my mind to ask the Turkish government to finance a restoration and then hand the restored church over to the Armenian patriarch in Istanbul which I believe is the demand regarding Sourp Khatch.
       
          

  279. Ragnar, you and I have changed roles.  Now you are the dreamer.  Of course Turkey should pay to restore and return countless churches and other institutions to the Armenian nation, even if only to serve as a monument to what was taken, what was lost.  Setting the historical record straight is the ideal many hope for.   The Sourp Giragos church in Dikranagerd will do the same through its reconstruction and will also serve as an example of what can be accomplished through Kurdish and Armenian cooperation. 

  280. “So it makes sense to my mind to ask the Turkish government to finance a restoration and then hand the restored church over to the Armenian patriarch in Istanbul…”
     
    Armenians don’t have to ask anything, ragnar naess, this is another blunder of yours. Turkish government has assumed an obligation to provide care for all Christian monuments, structures, cemeteries, and edifices according to the provisions of both the Sevres and Lausanne treaties. As you might have witnessed, Turks don’t spare efforts to provide care for Christian structures. Out of 3000 Armenians churches and monasteries only several exist, and mostly in Constantinople. Scores of churches and monasteries have been desecrated, destructed, used as tank targets during military maneuvers, transformed to ‘museums’, mosques, sheepcots or barn toilets. And you suggest asking Turks to restore anything? They will only do something good for non-Turks if (1)they’re compelled to or (2)as a buffoonery staged for Europe to show off what religiously ‘tolerant’  the Turkish nation is. They are Turks, ragnar, we know them well…

  281. gor
    you say:
    Armenians don’t have to ask anything, ragnar naess, this is another blunder of yours. Turkish government has assumed an obligation to provide care for all Christian monuments, structures, cemeteries, and edifices according to the provisions of both the Sevres and Lausanne treaties.
     comment: the world of signed treaties is not the same as the world of practical politics, Gor! This is another examples of your lack of understanding of the world you live in. We are talking about politics. The theme launched by Boyajian was how to work towards justice given the world we actually live in. How can we influence the Turks, if at all? Is it right of the ARF not to put so much emphasis on the recognition of genocide, but focus on preserving the Armenian cultural heritage in Turkey? These are natural and inevitable questions. To repeat the text of sevre and lausanne will not help. The question is what we can do. If nothing then drop the theme  

  282. gor
    thank you for your admission that the distinction between invaders and indigenous people s not essential for the Convention. By the way, the Bulgarians were also to a certain extent descendants of Turkic tribes from the East. Regarding the turks of Bulgaria in 1877-78, they were to a large extent driven out of their villages by attacks from Cossacks and Bulgarian bands, after part of the inhabitants were massacred. This is what McCarthy relates. They were civilians, not soldiers. By being sent on the road in the autumn and winter they were clearly put in life endangering situations. 250.000 died. They were targeted as such. The intention was evidently to bring about a large mortalityand to prevent their return to reclaim their rights. They were a subgroup like the Bosniaks of Srebrenica and environs. “the most reasonable conclusion is that the perpetrators were aware of the effects of their actions and that some of them strove towards this result”. This is more or less what ICTJ says regarding “the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia”.  substitute “Turks in bulgaria” for “Armenian of eastern anatolia” and keep the wording of ICTJ identical. Yes, according to this reasoning both were genocides. This is my opinion, but of course I may be wrong.

  283. Boyajian
    it is interesting that you say I am a dreamer and that you were the dreamer before. Have you changed your attitude and beliefs lately? 

  284. gayane
    you say that GENOCIDE IS GENOCIDE and that the point that words can have different meanings does not apply to the word genocide. It is the first time I have heard this argument. are you sure of this? If this is so why do both jurists and genocide researchers bother so much with definitions? 

  285. monastras
    I have not heard from you for a while. Possibly you are not comfortable with the style of the discussions. Then I have to say that I have also been very uncomfortable with discussions. But I guess that you are here because you believe that something must be done to adress the relationsship between Armenians and Turks. I can only guess at the resons for your belief, but I guess that you – like many Turks, and immeasurably more today that 20 years ago – realize that Turks must answer the accusations from Armenians and also from an important  part of the world’s historians and representative bodies. I dont know your reactions to the debates, but I imagine that you feel it hard to encounter something  that has to do not only with being contradicted, but also being ridiculed and verbally attacked. This is very much the reaction I myself had from 2007 and onwards when I started to engage in debates with Armenians. I was feeling hurt, I was wondering if there was something wrong with me, I was disgusted with the debate which did not correspond to standards that I was used to. But I realized that there is no way except dialogue. And one must have faith in dialogue, especially when it seems not to lead anywhere. I have learned a lot about how the memory of the genocide stays with Armenians, something I knew intellectually from before, but something that gets much more pointed and clear if you actually argue with people. So I ask you to join the debate again, and not leave us  

  286. mjm, you posted a thought provoking thought-experiment on ‘intent’ using Breivik’s actions as a case study (…don’t recall the thread).

    Did Norwegians debate it adequately in a sober and detached manner, or is  the event too traumatic and personal  for them to be discussed and debated in a clinically detached manner ?

    Please give us an update if you would. Thank you. 

  287. I perfectly understand that the world of signed treaties is not the same as the world of practical politics, ragnar naess. What I also seem to understand, in contrast to you, that signed treaties are a part of the world of Realpolitik. My comment targeted the embarrassing wording you used re: asking the Turkish government to finance a restoration. How lovely! First Turks destroy, desecrate, transform Armenian religious sites to ‘museums’, mosques, sheepcots, and barn toilets, and then Armenians are required to ask the same destructive Turks to restore them. Why is it that most of your comments are directed at Armenians, not at condemning the uncivilized Turkish behavior?

  288. You are wrong, ragnar naess.  As is notorious genocide denier, Turkish henchman McCarthy.  In my comment about Turks in Bulgaria I gave you a perfect reasoning as to why substituting “Turks in Bulgaria” for “Armenians of Eastern Anatolia” will not be appropriate for the application of the identical wording of ICTJ. You conveniently avoided my focal point: ethnic Turks (Ottoman or Bulgarian notwithstanding) represented one of the warring sides in 1877-78 and in 1912-13, thus they suffered atrocities. Armenians did not represent a warring side but suffered genocidal extermination, regardless. During any war civilians suffer, but their sufferings, in most cases, do not normally fall under the category of premeditated genocide. As a result of atrocities against Bulgarian Turks during the wars they were expelled from lands they earlier occupied. Armenians were forcibly deported from their ancestral lands. There are many peculiarities, but one indeed needs to be an unbiased observer to understand them. You, clearly, don’t seem to be one.

  289. Ragnar

    I am not leaving AW. Some discussions may be fruitless but I will keep trying to present my view and learn from others. The problem with Armenian weekly is they do not post my comments very often as they find them the propaganda of Turks. Verbal attack or being ridiculed is okay as long as I can present my view. I  asked a clear question to the readers but haven’t received a proper answer.What is your opinion about my question?
    By the way, Turks aren’t scared of the Armenian claims. they can also face their history without any problem. The same must be done by Armenians by not pretending nothing was done on their side. If we believe them, Their grandparents were all angels. They didn’t revolt but the Turks misunderstood them delibrately.

  290. Furthermore, ragnar naess.

    “’The most reasonable conclusion is that the perpetrators were aware of the effects of their actions [against Bulgarian Turks] and that some of them strove towards this result’. This is more or less what ICTJ says regarding ‘the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia’”
    .
     
    ICTJ Report states, in particular, that the crime of genocide has four elements: (1) the perpetrator killed one or more persons; (2) such person or persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; (3) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and (4) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction. ICTJ established that three of the elements listed above were instantaneously met: (1) one or more persons were killed; (2) such persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; and (4) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group. As for (3), ICTJ established that the most reasonable conclusion to draw of the events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent. Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the crime of genocide as defined in the Convention.
     
    Out of four elements mentioned above, the atrocities against the Turks of Bulgaria, in my view, do not meet three, namely: (1), (3), and (4).
     
    Re: (1). Russian army and Bulgarian freedom-fighters were not perpetrators per se; together with the Turks they represented one of the warring sides. Neither side involved in a military action at a formally proclaimed war can be perceived as perpetrator. Again, Russians won a decisive victory at Stalingrad in 1942 destroying a great number of Nazi Germans. Can it be said that Russians were, actually, perpetrators of the atrocities?
     
    Re: (3). It can’t be said that Russian army and Bulgarian freedom-fighters intended to destroy, in whole or in part, Bulgarian Turks as a group. Even your BFF Justin McCarthy, with whom I had a revulsion watching you at a University of Utah discussion, admitted that ethnic Turks became victims of battle casualties more than murders by Bulgarian units and Russian troops [“Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922”, pp.66-67]. The Ottoman army has also attacked Bulgarian Turk non-combatants and used Bulgarian Turk civilians to shield their retreat. Did Turks intended to destroy their own ethnic group?
     
    Re: (4). The conduct of Russian army and Bulgarian liberators didn’t take place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against the Bulgarian Turks. The only major instances of their encounter with the Turks were wars, and not a pattern of destruction. The manifest pattern of a destructive conduct refers to the Turks because they were the oppressor group during the Ottoman centuries, not the Bulgarians, or the Armenians, or the Serbs, or the Albanians, or the Romanians, or the Arabs, or the Greeks, for that matter. In the case of the Armenians, there clearly was a manifest pattern of similar conduct: the 1894-1896 massacres of Armenians under the Bloody Assassin Abdulhamid II—the 1909 massacres of Armenians in Adana—the 1915-1923 genocide of Armenians in the Ottoman empire.

  291. Monastras, sorry that you feel mistreated by the moderators.
    As to your comment above:  Armenians did revolt!  Rightfully!  But it was a minority of the population.  We face this squarely.   Are you suggesting that the great majority of an ancient nation consisting of primarily innocent elderly, women and children deserved genocide because of the actions of those who fought for freedom?  I must not understand you correctly.

  292. Monastras:     —-If Turks aren’t scared of Armenian claims and can face their history without problem, then why won’t they accept their forefathers’ guilt in history? Amused at “the same must be done by Armenians by not pretending nothing was done on their side.” Exactly what was done on Armenians’ side, please? All of the Turkish population of Asia Minor was savagely slaughtered by Armenians or Turkish homeland in the Altay mountains was stolen from them? Also, would be glad to enlighten myself as to what “revolt” of Armenians led to misunderstanding by poor Turks? Don’t forget to add, as to, if there was a “revolt”, why the group of a few revolutionaries was not brought to custody, but millions of innocent men, women, elders, children, and even the unborn ripped off their mothers’ wombs, were barbarously slaughtered by the Turks?  Curiously,  K.

  293. ‘I  asked a clear question to the readers but haven’t received a proper answer.’

    We also asked a clear question and have not received an answer – proper or improper.
    We’ll ask again:

    {Avery August 16, 2011 
    Monastras:  I will ask you a simple question one more time: do you or do you not stand by this post of yours
    [Guest – Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust] (posted   @Hurriyet) 
    Yes or No ? }

    And yes Mr. Ragnar, when you render an opinion re Monastras’s question ‘What is your opinion about my question?’, you might consider rendering an opinion about our question also.
     

  294. Monastras, It is an insult to our 2 Million martyrs’ annihilation by the hands of the CUP of the then the Turkish gov’t of 1915 to say that it is a fabrication.  HOW DARE YOU!  You Monastras.

  295. What nonsense!!! Apparently the poster is dumber than Hitler. Hundreds of stories out of hundreds of villages and scattered to the 4 corners of the earth could concoct those tragic stories? Was it a genocide? It deosn’t even deserve an answer.

  296. Boyajian,
    Revolutionaries are always the minorities of the societies compare to the rest of the population. This isn’t valid only in the Armenian case but all the similar cases. But they can cause havoc. The support for the Russian enemy was widespread among the Armenians. Nearly, 20,000 Armenians crossed the Russian border and formed voluntary units (This is from the Armenian sources). Moreover, The Armenian insurgency also caused problems for the Government such as cutting the supplies line, telegraph lines of the army, raiding the Turkish villages etc. Imagine, having the MP’s of the Ottoman parliament as the commander of the voluntary Armenian units made the matter worse in the eyes of the Turks. The Armenians actually captured the city of Van and handed over to the Russian Army. Turks were also fighting in many fronts at that time. The Armenian leaders were warned many times by the CUP but warnings fell on deaf ears. This issue has been contaminated by the distorted books, nationalist approach etc. For example, I read an article of Murat Bardakci, an Ottoman Historian/Journalist in the daily Haberturk, He was furious with Ara Sarafian, Talat Pasha’s wife had given him the memoirs of Talat Pasha in the past and he published this in Turkish recently. According to him, Ara Sarafian distorted so many things as he likes and published this in English as the Talat Pasha’s confession. His lawyer(I think in England) made this issue a court case. But what you will read when you buy this book is Talat Pasha’s confession of the genocide.

    With regards to   innocent elderly, women and children deserved genocide because of the actions of those who fought for freedom? Nobody deserves such a treatment. I guess, it wouldn’t be wise to separate families. We cannot also rule that the CUP leaders were the perfect decision makers. If it was today, nobody would die on the road as there is no bus without air-conditioning. They also hardly thought about their own soldiers. They even didn’t bring back the soldiers fought in Yemen after the war I know  one of them is my close relative. He had to walk on his own all the way from Yemen to Mersin. Bear in mind, we are judging something with today’s logic that happened a century ago. During the deportations, Armenians were able to buy train tickets in the Adana region and travelled by train. The deportation was carried out depending on the local facilities and the actions of the local administration. There is no evidence discovered so far to suggest that this was a premeditated action of the government. Their action was reactionary rather than premeditated. If a new genuine evidence is discovered tomorrow that it was premeditated . I am sure Turkey will say. We are very sorry that we thought that this wasn’t a premeditated action but it turned out other way around. We deeply share the great pain of the Armenians.

    I am sure Armenians will say that they resisted in Van against the deportation or heavy taxation elsewhere or the revolutionaries were only a handful  people why on earth they did this to us?  My argument is if all the evidences suggest that it was a genocide , Armenians must have taken this issue to the International Court of Justice long time ago. You will have the best lawyers to present your case. You will have the opportunity to tell the calamity that befell on you in front of the world audience.  Imagine, you have a very strong and a solid case but stay away from the court and say Turkey should apply to the court and make some other stupid comments like Armenians blame the whole Turkish nation etc. Who is going to benefit from the verdict? Armenians, who is complaining about the denialist policy of Turkey? Armenians, who is going to stop the distortion and the twisted fact of the Turks? Armenians. If you aren’t doing this then please do not complain if somebody says exactly the opposite. I know you have an emotional investment in this Boyajian, but I am sorry emotional investments cannot be counted in the legal case. 
    Another subject,
    Imagine; you Armenians can go back to the beginning of the century and nothing happened, no deportation, no revolution. What would have been the picture of the Armenian community as of today?  Would you prefer to coexist with the conservative and extreme nationalist Turks in the harsh environment in the eastern Turkey or live in the USA or elsewhere? 

  297. gor
    thank you for your post on the ICTJ and the Turks in Bulgaria. Now I am not a jurist, but I sketched my following reasoning to Morten Bergsmo, who works as a UN specialist on these matters, at a seminar some years ago, and he said that my reasoning was interesting and that I should follow it up. – I disagree with you for several reasons. First, the Turks killed and driven out were civilians, men women, children, sick, old, they were not warring parties. Civilians are not part of the “warring parties”. As far as I know the laws of war make a point that civilians should not be targeted if it is possible to avoid it. So also your mentioning of German soldiers (not “Nazis”) killed after the debacle of Stalingrad is irrelevant 1) because they do not constitute a”protected group” according to the Convention and 2) because they were soldiers.It was matter of how to treat prisoners in war- And the pattern described by McCarthy, and confirmed by an overwhelming evidence including protests from a great number of Western journalists at the time, was a pattern of targeting ethnic Turks – and also jews by the way – as such.  Further: the word “Freedom fighter” is not a juridical term and irrelevant in this context.The question is if there was an intent on the part of Russians, Cossacks and Bulgarian bands which can be covered by the wording of the ICTJ when it deals with the Armenian case. –Further, the number of Turks murdered is not the only relevant point here. Murdering people (killing people) is only one of the acts described by the Convention. One of the acts described in the Convention is DELIBERATELY INFLICTING ON THE GROUP CONDITIONS OF LIFE CALCULATED TO BRING ABOUT  ITS PHYSICAL DESTRUCTION IN WHOLE OR IN PART. In the ICTJ text this is hinted at by the words “…the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction(my emphasis)”.  By killing some Turkish other Turks were induced to flee in panic for their lives, and in these conditions (no food, winter conditions) this meant putting them in a life threatening condition. The mortality was very high, and a considerable part of the Turks of Bulgaria died. the carefully expressed conclusion of the ICTJ is as yoiu say:”….that the most reasonable conclusion to draw of the events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.” Unquote. Given the reasoning of ICTJ I find it very difficult to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria were subjected to genocide. But of course I may be wrong. From your arguments I see points that I have not been thinking of.  However, I am surprised that you indirectly describe women, children and old people as representatives of the “warring parties”.
     
     
      
     
     
     

     

  298. Monastras, Although it has been said in here on AW columns numerous times, but apparently you didn’t make an attempt to read them nor read hundreds and more of the books about the Armenian Genocide and about the vast Armenian population in the Republic of Turkey on or before 1915 and what truly transpired.  The Armenian freedom fighters were trying to protect the Armenian unarmed population since the Hamidian massacres of 1895-1896 when Abdul Hamid had 300 thousand Armenian unarmed civilians murdered on the Armenian Highlands that was at the time and till today it is called Eastern Turkey.  The Armenian population ever since the Seljuk Turks came from the Mongolian steppes of the Altay mountain to the Armenian Highlands, were never left alone in peace as they were constantly being murdered and barbarically butchered just because they were Christian Armenians living in their own anscestral homeland over 5000 years that was their own homeland.  They were living in sheer fear even though they were constant workers, inventors, builders, scientists, educators, lawyers, and tradesmen.  The A.R.F. organization that created their freedom fighters stemmed from within the heart of the Armenian people who wanted to protect the unarmed civilian Armenian population from constant attacks, murders, rapes, kidnapping, persecution, theft of property & belongings, etc. etc. by both the Turkish gendarmes and the Turkish people.  They never had peace.  Not to mention under the Turkish yoke Armenians were also taxed three times more than the Turkish population.   The Armenians were 2 1/2 – 3 Million population in 1915.  The A.R.F. Freedom Fighters were only a few trying to protect the population here and there whenever the majority unarmed people were murdered in thousands, such as in Van area and other places too in the Eastern Turkey towns and cities.  Then in 1908 a new gov’t came to the throne of Turkey in the name of the Ittihadist CUPs claiming that they were progressive government and things were going to get better in the country as well as for the Armenians.  the ARF Organization in desperation after the Hamidian massacres of their people wished to believe in them and for a very short while they even collaborated with the newly formed Ittihadist CUPs until 1909 when the CUPs deceived them and murdered 30,000 Adana’s unarmed civilian Armenian population as they premeditated the murder of the Armenian nation to finish the bloody murders of Abdul Hamid and to put the final nails on the coffins of 2 million Armenians by first murdering the 250 unarmed civilian intellegentsia, then they had all the Armenian unarmed civilian males in the country murdered.  Then after that they had the unarmed civilian women and children walk the death marches down to Mesopotamian deserts all while the CUP gov’t. freed the convicted murderers from their jails to go and attack those poor women and children that were walking by foot in the name of relocation but without food and without water, and all the while they were constantly being attacked by the criminals, by the local Kurds and Turks; only in the end to be throw in Der-El-Zor, a huge ditch called Saaddin in the deserts of Syria to burn them in a blazing fire after throwing them in that huge ditch.  Whoever survived after that, they only survived by a miracle.  Out of 3 Million Armenians in 1915-1923 only 700 thousand orphaned children and few women survived.  Thus in the Diaspora today scattered all around the world, we are the remnants of the martyred 2 Million Armenians who were murdered premeditatedly by the Ittihadist CUP government of Turkey from 1915 through 1923 which is called the Armenian Genocide that until today the Turkish government does not want to accept it and they are denying it for 96 years living in a lye and plus lying to their population and paying millions of dollars to governments all around the world, especially to the US gov’t. senators and congressmen to lie about it and they are driving an enormous campaign all around the world to scare government officials to not accept the Armenian Genocide.  Thus the Armenian Genocide is still ongoing because of the Turkish govenrment’s denials until today.   

  299. Most genocides, like the Armenian genocide, have an underlying economic component, which many scholars have shown, overrides most other variables, like race, ethnicity or religion. The Ottoman Empire, fighting several wars of choice on several fronts, was bankrupt and using its minority citizens to finance its adventures and its support of Germany. When the Armenians refused to cooperate further by withholding tax payments, they were deemed as ‘traitors and revolutionaries’, even though they had warned the CUP not to enter into the war at all. Let’s not forget, the minorities were the bank account for the empire…all the wealth amassed by the empire came from the toil of the millet peoples, not from the ruling class. So, yes, the Armenians reacted in self-defense….some may call this a ‘revolt’, but in light of what was happening to them across the empire, on their own land by the way….they were fully justified in trying to secure their towns and villages from endless raids and pillaging by the authorities. When the Armenians refused to cooperate, they were accused of treason, rounded up and murdered or expelled. Their properties and businesses were later handed over to those who were close associates of the CUP. Their stolen gold and bank accounts were transferred to the Bank of England, where it remains. When backed into a corner, rats will fight like rats and eat each others’ heads off….the CUP ate its own citizens in an effort to stay afloat, and just like Hitler, they went down the drain as genocidal murderers and thieves.  This is established history….not a fantasy invented by Armenians, who by the way, never had an army, a tank or a battalion, as did the empire. To accuse them of such is like accusing a mosquito of threatening an elephant. 

  300. monastras
    there have been people here in AW who have been complaining of being  censored by the AW staff. There has been at least one case where an Armenian has complained of this, it does not only happen to Turks. If I were you I would send a letter to the editor with the post that was rejected, and ask for an explanation.
    Then you write: By the way, Turks aren’t scared of the Armenian claims. they can also face their history without any problem. Unquote.
    I have read quite a number of books and booklets in which Turkish historians have commented on the accusations regarding the Armenian fate in 1915-16. Here in Norway many of these are sent out by the Turkish Embassy. But – according to my reading – these contributions cannot be said really to go into the question. One thing is to disagree, but the Turkish contributions as a rule do not refer to the more specific points of the genocide scholars and Armenian scholars. they dont refer the arguments, but only repeat assertions known from Turkish conservatives. This looks to me like unwillingness to face the past. I am not talking about you, but about the general Turkish reaction. To take one example, the Turkish author  Enver Zia Karal describes the collection of materials “The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire”, published in 1916 as “onesided British propaganda” and “not worth dwelling upon” (Sarafian, Ara: The archival trail” in Hovannisian (ed)(1999):  remembrance and denial. The case of the Armenian genocide. Wayne state University press, p. 52). While it is true that the book was published for propaganda purposes, the majority of the contributors were resident foreigners, many of whom also published their experiences after WW1. While they hardly were in a position to know about the intents and decisions of the Ittihadist government, they saw the facts on the ground, and I cannot conclude anything other than this is a sourcebook which gives a very good, and gruesome, picture of the deportations and killing of Armenians.   So the description by Karal is misleading and seems to show an unwillingness to go into the question of what happened to the Armenians. The words “not worth dwelling upon” sounds to me as unwillingness. A more recent contribution, that of Haluk Selvi of Sakarya University (2007) is better in that the assertions of genocide scholars are much more throughly referred to, but when he starts providing his own ideas, he does not refer to the literature he initially presented. He gives what for many years was the standard official Turkish version.
     

  301. Monastras, How could 700 half dead, half alive skeletons and orphaned hungry children who miraculously escaped from blazing fires, swords and guns from the Turkish gendarmes be able to go to the international courts to claim their rights of their race being murdered?  They were hungry orphaned children and some skeleton of women that the American orphanages took them in and also thanks to the Syrian gov’t. who saved them as well as Greece who opened their doors to the Armenian survivors.  Talaat Pasha of the CUP admitted himself that the Armenians after being murdered en masse about 2 million of them; will not be able to raise their heads to even compalin about it.  Talaat said that it will take the Armenians 50 years to be able to start talking about it, complain and be able to try to claim their rights.  Yes Talaat Pasha of the Ittihadist CUPs who was the mastermind of the Armenian Genocide said the above statement.  And it did come true, the newer generation Armenians who’s parents were the orphaned children that miraculously survived the Armenian Genocide started commemorating and speaking about it exactly after 50 years in 1965.  For your information there has been international historians working on the veracity of the Armenian Genocide for 30 years.  The Armenian Genocide that was premeditated by the 1915 Ittihadist CUP government of the Turkish Republic cannot be disputed.  As Hitler said on or about 1939 before annihilating the Jews in Europe, he said, “let us annihilate the Jews, because today who remembers the Armenian Genocide?”

  302. Monastras, do you really need proof of ‘premeditation’ before you can offer an apology and “deeply share in the great pain of the Armenian people.”  Where is your humanity?    An ancient nation is virtually wiped from its historical homeland, leaving villages, churches, shops, homes to the looters,  thousands of orphans in the Syrian desert and scattering survivors across the globe and you need to see the smoking gun before you can feel basic human compassion! 
     
    I will never understand Turks like you.  Your great-grandparents probably witnessed these ‘deportations’ and may have even wept as they saw the pitiable caravans of starving Christians being driven through the streets.  They may even have convinced themselves that the government was doing what it had to do for the good of the empire.  But when the war ended and the dust settled and they did not see their former neighbors returning to their homes to claim their belongings, didn’t they know what happened?  Didn’t they lament the loss of the baker, the banker, the tailor, the teacher and ask themselves how did we let this happen? 
     
    You and I disagree on premeditation, but can’t we agree on the tragedy?  Do you really deny that the actions of the government directly led to this tragedy?  Do you not understand what price was paid for you to claim Turkish pride today?  Do you not see the blood that was shed so that a blue-eyed savior could lead your people to a new and modern Turkey for all Turks?  Why do we need courts and commissions for Turks to acknowledge the Armenian loss and simply say sorry? 
     
    You have been denied the full truth by your own government and greed and desire for power is standing in the way of doing what is right.

  303. ragnar naess,   I’m not a jurist, either, but our reading into the same provisions of the relevant juridical documents, obviously, differ. I may say it is because of your pro-Turkish tilt, you may say it is because of my ethnic affinity. The fact, which I hope you’ll have wisdom not to dispute, is that the ICTJ resolution dealt with the genocide of Armenians in Eastern Anatolia, not the genocide of Turks in Bulgaria. The fact is that the 1948 Genocide Convention was based on Lemkin’s study and invention of the term ‘genocide’ based on the race annihilation of the Armenians, not the Bulgarian Turks.
     
    Now, I didn’t say “civilians were part of the warring parties”. I said ethnically Bulgarian Turks represented one of the warring parties: the Ottoman Turks. And, unfortunately, even though the laws of war make a point that civilians shouldn’t be targeted, Bulgarian Turks were targeted in an ongoing war because ethnically they represented a warring side, the Turks. I brought this argument for you to make a distinction between an ethnic group that was at war with the other(s) and an ethnic group (Armenians) that was not at war with anyone, but was slaughtered en masse regardless and on a grand scale and level of barbarity.
     
    About the “protected group” that you keep repeating. Do please refer me to an excerpt where the “protected group” is mentioned in the Convention in the context that you’re referring to. If you think the Stalingrad paradigm is irrelevant, I can provide you with hundreds of facts of atrocities against the civilian German population when the Red Army entered Germany. But Russians will laugh in your face if you dare to tell them that “the laws of war make a point that civilians should not be targeted.” Most probably Russians will say: ‘Germans killed innocent Russian civilians in the first place, and we retaliated by doing the same to the German civilians.’
     
    I didn’t put “freedom fighter” in a juridical context. By using the correct denomination for the Bulgarian paramilitaries (freedom-fighters, liberators, etc., and not ‘bands’), I tried to demonstrate to you that these people were fighting for a just cause, however non-juridical it may sound: liberation of their lands from Turkic invaders and colonizers. You sound like saying: some uncivilized nomads invaded my dwelling, kept its inhabitants at awe by constantly massacring, raping, and humiliating them, made the legitimate home-owners their slaves for centuries, but now when the suitable moment came the home-owners must refrain from liberating their home because in a juridical context it will mean inflicting pain on the invaders. Does this make sense?
     
    Because there were wars in which the oppressed rose against the oppressors, I don’t think it was the deliberate infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part in the sense that the Convention implies. Atrocities were committed against the Turks as were they committed by the Turks against Bulgarians, Russians, and even their own civilian Turks. Compare the war situation in the Balkans with a no-war situation in Eastern Anatolia, and you’ll most likely come to no other conclusion that these two situations in terms of a deliberate infliction are incomparable.
     
    I categorically disagree with the application of the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction to the Bulgarian Turks’ case. Fleeing in panic for their lives, no food, winter conditions, etc. is the weakest argument you came up with. If these are understood by you as putting people in a life-threatening condition, then you can in a risk-free manner apply them to any war waged by human civilizations from the times of Sumer until now.
     
    Also noted is how easily you used the term ‘genocide’ with regard to the Turks in Bulgaria (“Given the reasoning of ICTJ I find it very difficult to deny that the Turks in Bulgaria were subjected to genocide.”) and how excruciatingly reluctant you are in using the term in the case of Armenians, the term that was coined based on the study of race annihilation of Armenians. Do you now see how Turkic-centric you are?
     
    For the record: Since I noticed that you have a tendency to ascribe to the posters something they didn’t actually say. Neither directly nor indirectly have I “described women, children and old people as representatives of the ‘warring parties’”. I now copy and paste what I actually said in one of my posts above: “Ethnic Turks (Ottoman or Bulgarian notwithstanding) represented one of the warring sides in 1877-78 and in 1912-13, thus they suffered atrocities.” You directly deny that the Armenian genocide was premeditated, ragnar naess, nonetheless you concentrate your attention on what others might have indirectly in your imagination said about the Turks. Does this make sense? Turkocentrism?

  304. Gor
    with all respect, I cannot follow your line of arguments. I am also surprised at your arguments. to give one example: you write: Now, I didn’t say “civilians were part of the warring parties”. I said ethnically Bulgarian Turks represented one of the warring parties: the Ottoman Turks.unquote. No, but they were IN FACT  civilians. This is one of my premises, and it is historically accurate, and it is in line with other examples where the genocide concept has been applied. The males murdered at Srebrenitsa were 1) not soldiers killed in military operations, 2) targeted because of their ethnicity. This formes an important part of the reasoning why the genocide concept applies to the case. The idea that “Bulgarian Turks ehnically represented one of the warring parties” makes no sense.

  305. The premise is wrong: these are not merely Armenian ‘claims’, they are a bona fide part of world history. It is only among certain circles in Turkey and small pockets – either allied with or bought by Turkey that dispute the veracity of the genocide.  Nationalist Turks seem to think that repeating a lie 10,000 times miraculously turns it into truth. Well, nothing could be further from truth, my friends, than the lies promulgated by them and their paid surrogates, particularly in the US. We all know who they are…disreputable, discredited and artificial ‘scholars’, who peddle propaganda as history. Does Turkey or anyone else really think the world was deaf, dumb and blind in 1915, or any year since?  There is enough objective, non-Armenian eyewitness documentation to fill many libraries, so attempts to redefine historical truth will not go far. It might fly inside Turkey, but that’s about the extent of it.

       

  306. monastras
    I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important.   

  307. gor
    one more point: I never denied that the Armenians suffered genocide PROVIDED THE REASONING IN THE ICTJ. Obviously it is so. My point is that because of the wording of the ICTJ verdict – taken as a reasoning applying a general procedure that can also be applied to other cases – it is highly problematic to deny that genocide occurred against the Turks in Bulgaria. The ICTJ  is then read as providing a way of reasoning or method, providing criteria that can be applied in other cases. This is how the law operates. But maybe we do not adress each other or understand each other on this point. As I say I may be wrong but this is how it seems to me
    To emphasize: to my mind it is obvious that the Armenians suffered genocide in the sense provided by the ICTJ in 2002.  but note that nothing here is said about the kind of perpetrator. Whereas the genocide scholars make it a point that the perpetrators were in the government and that genocide was an adopted policy.

  308. I am impressed with Ragnar’s persistance and his speech to Monastras… wow… we have a public speaker amongst us ladies and gents..

    Ragnar, why don’t you use your talents to convince the Denialists Turks and yourself of course on: yes, Genocide is a Genocide(Gor jan.. excellent observation about Ragnar having NO problem labeling Bulgarian Turks unfortunate encounter with such event as Genocide but very very very very very very very reluctunt of labeling the Armenian Genocide, (even though we gave him plenty of reasons as to the definition of such a word and of course, about the father of the word Genocide..Rafael Lemkin who coined that word mainly because of the Genocide of our ancestors). it is very odd right? ABSOLUTELY NOT… Gor jan.. you may not know who Rangar is (even though I am sure you already figured it out) but I have known Ragnar for a very long time and I know his character.. He WILL NOT admit that Ottoman Turks Genocide of Eastern and Western Armenians WERE, IS AND WILL remain as Genocide no matter how many times he goes around it… no matter how many times we point out his reasons are not realistic, very confusing and very bias, no matter how many times we provide hard facts.. he will NOT budge…because he is tooooooo attached to the Turkish Denialist’s hip.. unfortunately.. even after his efforts to try to create communication between Armenians and Turks as if he is the moderator of all European Union… as if he has some sort of importance amongst us…sometimes I wonder .. DID HE REALLY SAY OR ASK THAT? especially after his long long lists of credentials and experience and trials and such.,…sometimes i laugh at some of the things he says because as if his word will b taken under consideration in the higher courts..NO WHERE in his posts does he condemn Turks for what they been doing to our history and what it is left of our ancient civilization, even after their ancestors annihiliated almost an entire ethnic group.. no where does he tells Turks to do what he wants Armenians to do.. no where does he refer to Genocide…. calls every name of the book but NEVER a GENOCIDE…it is amazing… and

    in addition, his calling for Monastras to come back on these pages.. his ploy and the reasons he used to bring his buddy back on these pages is just too touching…in so much so, that  i would suggest Ragnar to use the same tactic, same passion, same compassion, same desire to call upon Turkish govt to do the right thing, and your Turkish denilast to stop the whitewashing the truth and manipulating the facts… can you do that??? I doubt you can.. actually, i know you are capable of doing it.. you are just as a denialists as those we know for sure are….

    Ragnar- no matter how much BS you put on these pages, we know you the person is behind the pompeous self portrait…stop trying because you won’t succeed.. and your call to continue that you were hurt, that you were this and that but you promised yourself you are going to annoy the heck of out us was very touching but guess what sir??? you brought that all on to yourself. be fortunate and lucky that we are entertaining you and have entertain your nonsense and confusing self for so long… try doing this with Turks and see how far you will get… i meant on Turkish site…. oh wait.. but you don’t go much on Turkish site do you?? no you do not.. i only saw few posts related to you on  Zaman or Daily Harriyet…how do you explain that sir?????

    Gayane

  309. Gor jan– excellent work pushing back on Ragnar and his buddies…

    Boyajian jan and Seervart jan– brilliant… thank you

    Karo jan and Avery jan– xosq chunem.. apreq…

    Darwin jan– de dmbo piti linen to post such dumb comments.. we have seen and read everything…..yes qez het hamamit em…

  310. There is no confusion….Armenian ‘guerilla’ or fedayee actions were acts of self-defense and self-preservation. WIthout an army or an empire to defend themselves from government-hired thugs, what other options were available?   

  311. Ragnar,you wrote to monastras,
    Quote
    I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important.  
    Unquote
    If we apply your logic then because of the PKK the whole Kurdish population should be subjected to Genocide,ethnic cleansing & disposal as you say which is very insulting. Your logic is very absurd.

  312. Ragnar
    In those years tentions between Armenians and Turks in eastern Anatolia had reached a dangerous point. Armenian revolutionaries were active in all of the provinces, while Turkish authorities were displaying increased severity. There were mass arrests and new reports of the use of torture in the prisons. 

  313. Ragnar—-your statement below..really????? really Ragnar???? you really actually typed those sentences??? REALLLYYYYY???

     this one post tells a great volume how unaware you are about history.. and the implications of what one group does to protect themselves from being wiped out.. this comment alone puts you in the “extreme “i have no idea why I even speak when I know nothing…”…. so not sure why you keep posting comments.. you are digging your own sorry hole my friend.. the more you open your mouth, the more you embarass yourself…

    naess
    August 21, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    monastras
    I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important.  

    Vtiger jan- exactly… you nailed it…

    Gayane   

  314. ragnar naess,   please refer me to a single case of a war in human experience in which civilians representing the ethnicity of a warring party suffered no atrocities. I, in turn, cannot follow your line of arguments. Turks waged wars against Russians and the Balkan peoples. Atrocities against civilians during any war are inevitable. A situation of the civilians representing a warring side in a war and a situation of the civilians in no-war conditions cannot be juxtaposed. The idea that Bulgarian Turks ethnically represented one of the warring parties makes a perfect sense, if you compare their situation with the situation of Armenians who neither represented a warring side nor were anywhere near the war frontlines. Therefore, the deliberate infliction on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part applies to Armenians, as addressed by ICTJ.

  315. well done Gayane.   Հինգ:

    if you patiently wait and watch  long enough, sooner or later the deep Anti-Armenian hate being concealed beneath  the flowery, soothing  prose bursts through: they can’t help it.

    and don’t you love that phrase   ‘…. a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population’. As if you are getting rid of garbage.

    and in case anyone forgot, this same individual called the Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’ a while ago.

  316. Boyajian

    Well some times smoking gun may not be the proof of a crime.I totaly understand where  you are coming from. Yes it was a great tragedy for a community that lived on this land for a few millenium. I am sure it was a sad day that close neighbours were seperated forever. I sometimes come a cross an Armenian song on Turkish Tv while the sad song goes on, we see an old Armenian house with a trembling kerosine light. That picture tells us the sad story of Armenians.

    As you know we have a similar problem at the moment. Yes the revolutionaries are also minorities at the moment but causing great destruction. I urge people to go out and stop this nonsence. They might enjoy to kill a few soldiers but The end result will be devastating for the community. I do not think anybody listens these sort of warnings. When they hit the wall they will understand but it will be too late. If we have primitive laws . Let’s change them. If we have other problems lets take action together but if they say this region is Kurdish area. This region  is  Armenian area. We want authonomy or independence. That won’t be the case. I believe that at the personel level and the national level, people decide their own destiny. You take the chance with your best ability then you accept the result. 

    Why doesn’t Turkey make a statement about the Armenian tragedy? Well,  Armenians are doing whatever they can do to harm Turkey. They will use every statement that Turkey makes against Turkey in order to make territorial claim in the future. Armenians are exremely nationalist people. If they had power that Turkey has now. They would wipe out Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia and South Africa. Armenina invaded Azerbaijan and there is no garantee that they will not invade Turkey when they get a chance. 

  317. Monastras, There was no freedom fighters before the Hamidian massacres, and for centuries before it the Armenians were always being targeted by both the government hired thugs, by the Turks and by the Kurds.  The Armenian freedom fighters were not in great numbers whatsoever, they certainly didn’t have an army as the Turkish government had it nor any tanks.  They were very minimal in quantity and they only wished to save the helpless population from being targeted, attacked, raped, pillaged, kidnapped and murdered continuously.  They were not the 3 Million Armenian population and they wouldn’t have been there in the first place if the entire Armenian population of Turkey was not being targeted for murder and destruction by the Ottoman Turkish government for centuries much before the Hamidian massacres and the 1915 Armenian Genocide.

  318. I will let our Boyajian, to give her answers to Monastras, but in the interim I will say this.  Armenians have been waiting for 96 plus years for Turkey to come to her senses and accept the Turkish Genocide to Armenians when all of Eastern Turkey of today has been Armenian Highlands for more than 5000 years, much before the Seljuk Turks who came from the steppes of Mongolia by the Altai mountains within the past 900 years.  You call Armenians nationalistic, and what do you call the Turks who wish to get control all of Europe if given the chance today.  Armenians were the indigenous people of Western Armenia, Eastern Armenia as well as Artsakh and Javakhk.  Armenians were targeted by your turkish millet since the turks colonized our country and then killed practically all of them and then pushed them all out.  Now ask yourself, why do you Turks want to get control of all Europe?  Do you call that being solely nationalistic or simply having more than life appetites to get control and colonyze all the countries on the globe?

  319. This statement below is the most dumbest statement I have ever read..

    Why doesn’t Turkey make a statement about the Armenian tragedy? Well,  Armenians are doing whatever they can do to harm Turkey. They will use every statement that Turkey makes against Turkey in order to make territorial claim in the future. Armenians are exremely nationalist people. If they had power that Turkey has now. They would wipe out Azerbaijan, Turkey, Georgia and South Africa. Armenina invaded Azerbaijan and there is no garantee that they will not invade Turkey when they get a chance. 

    a true indicator that the poster has so much insecurity of himself, of his land and of his culture that he is turning the rightful owners, the Armenians who had NO trail in history a shred of INTENTIONAL pain and killings upon othe people except during an actual battle or war, into barbarians.. cold blooded killers when in reality it is his ancestors who possess such traits and demonstrated such actions many times over… what are you afraid of Monastras??? Is it because your land does not belong to you??? is it because your govt does EVERYTHING in her power to hang on to it by denying on all accounts? Is it because your govt is afraid if they admit to the truth, they will left homeless and without identity??? The answers are obvious by your post… 

    But slight correction.. Armenians dont’ wipe out people MONASTRAS.. you got us confused with your ancestors….   

    I have a suggestion Monastras…below is your comment.. why don’t you use this and make it a rule.. because Turkey is in dire need of change….
     
    I urge people to go out and stop this nonsence. They might enjoy to kill a few soldiers but The end result will be devastating for the community. I do not think anybody listens these sort of warnings. When they hit the wall they will understand but it will be too late. If we have primitive laws . Let’s change them

      

  320. Monastras, the tragedy is also an international crime.   And crimes have punishments.
     
    You say Armenians are doing all they can do to harm Turkey.  I say Turkey has done and continues to do all that it can do to harm Armenia.  What is worse than elimination of a nation from its homeland and denial of this fact?
     
    You say Armenians invaded Azerbaijan.  I say Armenians defended Artsakh from another genocide by Turks.
     
    You say Armenians are extreme nationalists who will wipe out Turkey and Azerbaijan if they have the chance.  I say Armenians have the right to defend themselves when attacked.  It is the Armenians who are maintaining the ceasefire with Azerbaijan despite several provocations by Azerbaijan.  Does this seem like a nation bent on its neighbors destruction?
     
    Nationalism to you is a dirty word.  To us, it is fighting for survival against destructive forces who want you to fade away quietly like so many forgotten people.
     
    Peace is easier than you think.  It begins with recognizing the right of all people to self-determination.  Those who impose their power on others, invite rebellion.
     
    You believe that Armenian wants to take what belongs to Turkey.  I say Armenians wants what was ours by virtue of history and acknowledged as ours by arbitration in the Treaty Sevres.  
     
     

  321. Gayane jan, The above address is right but unfortunately it didn’t work now when I tried it.

    When you google, try it under: Armenian Women  

  322. Monastras,if fighting for the recognition of the Armenian Genocide committed by your forefathers,or seeking justice for my innocent murdered family & compatriots,or dreaming of our lost lands grabbed from us by murder & ethnic cleansing or defending Artsakh in this case is being a nationalist, then I am the father of all nationalists.
    Scattered around the four corners of the world,being brought up with so many different languages & cultures how come that all Armenians are so unified when it concerns the Armenian Genocide?Could so many millions of people be brain washed?What type of organisation do you need to achieve that when we hardly can agree about a simple bbq picnic?
    Firstly try to convince the honourable Turkish intellectuals including Mr. Orhan Pamuk & then us.
    Don’t you think that you are the result of the famous facsist Turkish education?Don’t you think that you are brainwashed?Repetition is very tiring.Question yourself a bit.

  323. Seervart jan-…what is the story about? i tried to google Armenian Women but i get a great deal of links and don’t know what to look at… I really want to read what you proposed..:)

    Mersi my sister…

    Boyajian jan- apres quyrs.. well said 

    Gayane

  324. Gayane jan, It is too bad you couldn’t find the site.  It is about our very brave heroic women of the past as Sultan Simian, Serpouhi Yanekian-Asdghig, Mariam Chilingirian, Yeghisapeth Najarian-Yotneghparian, Khanem Ketenjian and Sose Mayrig who fought with her husband Serop aghpur and her gorunner (Hagop and Samson).  These women were our rare and our very brave women who joined the Fedayi men to save the Armenian population from slaughter by the Turkish thugs and the Kurds.  In the past and until today our women are not afraid to send their very young sons to fight the enemy for our nation’s survival.  Gayane you remind me of our rare but very brave women of the past and of present who stood behind their men and their sons in the Artsakh war as well.  You seem to me to have the same heart and vigor of these brave and dedicated women for our nation, for our national pride and for our great cause. 

    The site is put out it seems

  325. well said Seervart:  Turks definitely want to take control of Europe.

    well said  Boyajian:  for Turks,  others’  Nationalism is bad; Turkish Nationalist is good.

  326. Am I reading some of these posts correctly? Armenians are doing harm to Turkey?
    !
    1. Just who closed the border?
    2. Just who confiscated Armenian properties?
    3. Just who dictates the Armenian Church in Turkey?
    4. Who refuses to follow through on the protocols?
    5. Who will not open their archives?
    6. Who spends more on lobbying in America over genocide issues?

  327. VTiger, Abris! Very well said.  How true, we don’t agree about the parties and the organizations we belong to or what to cook on the bbq day; but when the talk comes about the Armenian Genocide there is no Armenian that doesn’t agee the horrible faith that befell our nation in 1915 and beyond, thanks to the Turkish government’s premeditated murders and atrocities.  And like Boyajian said it also, shouldn’t we be patriotic and nationalistic after all that?  Especially when the Genocide is still ongoing because of the Turks’ denials.

  328. Seervart jan…i am truly touched.. shnorakalutyun… bayts gitem vor du yev bolor mer hayuhiner@ unenq nuyn uj yev karoxutyunna.. menq bolors el nuynnenq… Astvats pahi mez bolorin vor karoxananq pahel mer hayreniq@… yes hpart em qezanov yev bolorov vor mer het en…

    Darwin jan– BINGOOOOOOOOO.. well said…

    Gayane

  329. Papken jan, Thank you my friend you touched me.  It seems to me that yourself and many of our fine compatriots in here are made from the very same mold “gaghabar”.  I appreciate and I love all of you like my kin brothers and sisters.  Poloret shad abrik!

  330. Gayane jan, Vochinch, iraganutioun en polor esadsneres!

    Darwin, Thank you for your comment, you put it well my friend!

  331. Boyajian

    Why do you think that  tragedy is an international crime? For example If I walk on the verge of a cliff and fall over, this is would be my tragedy. Is this an international crime?  

    By the way, I want to go back to Mongolia but I have no money. Would you be kind enough to organise my removel? So I am sure this will be the beginning. So many people will follow me 

  332. Monastras— you said:

    Why do you think that  tragedy is an international crime? For example If I walk on the verge of a cliff and fall over, this is would be my tragedy. Is this an international crime? 

    Well the truth of this statement is this: it is absurt to begin with but not surprised.. Second, if you do fall of a cliff, it would not be tragedy..no.. it would be sad though… so go for it if you feel like it….. however, when Turkish thugs and soldiers push thousands of innocent people off clifsf or those thousands innocent Armenian women with their children threw themselves off the cliff in order to die in more humane way than under your blood sucking and blood thirsty barbarian ancestors’ fangs.. now that IS A HUGE TRAGEDY..that is what we call a precursor to the premeditated GENOCIDE…  and YES it is an international crime.. NOW you get it?

    You said:   
    By the way, I want to go back to Mongolia but I have no money. Would you be kind enough to organise my removel? So I am sure this will be the beginning. So many people will follow me

    Your barbarian ancestors did not have money, nor clothes on their back or the concept of what civilization is, so why do you need money to go back to where your ancestors came from? if you start walking now, you will probably end up where your geneological pool started and we will all be great and dandy.. we will all be on our own righfully owned lands… don’t you think??…   

  333. I believe you misunderstand what  I about motive. my point is that if the Armenian guerilla was dangerous from a military point, it gave th ittihadiswts a motive for getting rid of armenians. This is an argument that the ittihadists har genocidal intent, they had a clear motive. In investigations of crime if a suspect has motive, the case qagainst this suspect is strenghtened.
    Monastras a catasrophy can also be a crime. One example: when Talat Pasha admts that he did not prosecutes many ofthose those who massacred Armenians, and did this for political reasons not to antagonise the kurds, what he admits is a crime of omission. This is covered in criminal law, especially if superiors fail to punish criminals.
    Gayane I admire your spirit and fight fr what you believe it, but you still are not able to relate to what I say  

  334.  
    Monastras, your comment contains a hint of sarcasm which suggests your question is insincere.  I have to assume you are kidding when you ask how was the tragedy that befell the Ottoman Armenians an international crime.  Like the Ambassador to Turkey, Mr. Ricchiardone, I say either you are lacking in education, or you must be joking.  
     
    But,  I will answer you according to my understanding of basic human rights and crimes against humanity:  Any government that removes an entire ethnic group from their homes without providing any supplies for their care or shelter, nor protection of women, children and elderly from the attacks of marauding thieves, rapists and murderers, and knowingly neglects to take actions to prosecute those who brutalize the innocent, is at the very least guilty of part C.) of the genocide convention:
    (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;


    You can’t possibly make a case that the government’s order to deport an entire ethnic population (primarily from interior villages that were nowhere near the war fronts) didn’t constitute a deliberate act of malicious neglect that resulted in the death of over a million peopleThe marches were ordered by the government, who willingly chose to neglect the needs of the innocent Armenian women, children and elderly that they deported.  The magnitude of these deaths and the lack of action to prevent them, points to intent to destroy in whole or in part….


    These people did not choose to walk along that cliff (literally or figuratively),  but some, after finding themselves forced beside it, willingly chose that death rather than the indignities that awaited them.  You may choose to walk beside a cliff of you own choice, and if you slip and fall it will be a tragedy, but no government put you there or endangered your nation, so, no, it is not an international crime.


    You will have to finance your own trip to Mongolia.  I will not try to stop you, but I am not asking you to go either.  I am simply asking you to face up to the evil that was done in your name and from which you benefit on a daily basis.  I am asking you to deal responsibly with the crime that your nation committed against my nation and other Christians, to show remorse for these crimes and to make proper restitution.

     

  335. ooohhh Gayane, that was so mean…you shouldn’t have asked Ms. Monastras to walk back. I will make the down payment for a horse. It’s more comfortable and she will get there a lot quicker. We Armenians are compassionate people.
     

    Seriously though, Monastras Khanum, how about hitting all the wealthy Turk industrialists for the money ? You know that  the original source of their wealth is the stolen wealth of exterminated Armenians. You didn’t know ? Well then, here are a couple of excerpts from an article @TodaysZaman:
     
    [‘Once the new regime did away with its Greeks and Armenians, transferring their assets to Turkish (Sunni) Muslim and Kurdish (Sunni) Muslim communities,…’] (emphasis mine)

    [‘In fact, today, the source of the Turkish bourgeoisie’s wealth is Armenian and Greek property, although books on Turkish economic history never mention this,” he said.’] (emphasis mine)   

    You can read the rest of the article at TodaysZaman. Title is: “Armenian, Syriac and Kurdish questions should be taken as a whole” (22 May 2011, Sunday / E. BARIŞ ALTINTAŞ, İSTANBUL )
     
    For guests who are not familiar with the poster Monastras may get the impression that we  Armenians  are being mean to her.
     
    This is who this person is: {[Guest – Monastras  2011-05-16 16:38:37  Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust] (posted   @Hurriyet)}
     
     
    Anyone who insults us by insulting our murdered ancestors will get no consideration here.

     

  336. Monastras, that first answer was my long answer.
     
    My second answer is much shorter:  A normal human being would never need to ask such a question.  You are demonstrating the effects of the unexamined dark side of Turkish society and genocide denial which has hampered your ability to feel compassion for the loss of others and the humility to admit your (nation’s) faults.  But it is not too late.

  337. Monastras, back to the cliff.   In a way your government has placed you beside a metaphorical ‘valley of idiocy’ which you are already slipping into every time you choose to repeat the nonsense which blames the victims for their own demise.  If the CUP had simply arrested and detained those Armenians who actively rebelled against the government, most people would  say, they were within their rights.  But the CUP turned their wrath on an innocent population and sent them to the desert to die.  How do you deny this?  Where are the Armenians who were in the millions until 1915?  Don’t let foolish Turkish pride leave you blind.

  338. Ragnar- we all due respect.. but you are not someone any of us can relate to.. in any case, as I pointed out in my last comment to you on this discussion..: what you said below was absolutely Anti-Armenian and harsh… are you saying your motive was not to instigate such a matter??????  Are you denying that you are a closet Turkish denialist friend????
    naess
    August 21, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
    monastras
    I am always surprised when the Turkish side in the discussions of the allegations of genocide against Armenians tell about the Armenian guerilla attacks from august 1914 and onwards, and the Armenian side wants to belittle the importance of the attacks. If these attacks were a real threat, it gives the ittihadists a very real motive to dispose of the Armenian population. In any investigation of a crime motive is important

  339. Avery jan-  you are soo right.. I am sorry.. I was a bit harsh.. 

      My apologies Monastras.. I am willing to finance your trip to Mongolia as well… ohhhhhhhhhhhh but wait.. the money i could have had if my ancestors wealth, i could have helped you.. but all that was stripped from my ancestors by your ancestors and your current govt Monastras.. that wealth is being used to its fullest extent by the descendents of those robbers and murderors… so guess you have to go see your President Monastras.. Hey but i was willing to give a hand….Guess youhave to walk unless Avery is nice enough to give you a horse…

    Gayane

  340.  
    “In investigations of crime if a suspect has motive, the case qagainst [against] this suspect is strengthened [strengthened].”

    Ranger Naness, in the civilized nation’ criminal laws. motive is not one of the elements of the
    crimes. Prosecution does not have to prove motive of defendant. A suspect is not a defendant. Turks are the defendants of their crime of genocide against Armenian children, who no human being has right to treat them like an enemy. If he or she does, then he or she would have lost his or her privilege to be called by his or her kinds, a human being. Turk Nation has lost its privilege to be called a nation. Likewise, a police officer on duty who has committed a crime; he would lose his status as officer because he or she has committed a crime under color of law.
    Only reason that the Republic of Turkey is member of the United Nation is that UN is not the union of nations, it is union of states. Furthermore, we are not at the stage of investigation of the genocide against Armenian children, we are at the stage of sentencing and punitive sanctions of state of Republic of Turkey and et al.

  341. Avery jan– wanted to add another post to your list……this is just too important not to mention.I would ask everyone to pay attention to the last sentence (underlined)
    Monastras says:
    Comment:
    Gayane,
    Mine is a Turkish female name. I came across another post of this woman. She apparently grabbed a fine Armenian man. She loves her hubby so much if we believe her Turkish ethnicity. I am glad that a Turkish woman grabbed a fine Armenian man. But you should never trust what she says. She might change her mind. I am also glad that their children will be supporting us. However, I read somebody’s post here pretending to be Turkish and asking the other Turks to adopt the Sever Treaty. Guess, who he was?
    We need more Turkish men and women hunting fine Armenian men and women in order to achieve our goal.

  342. “…our fine compatriots in here are made from the very same mold “gaghabar”. ”

    Seervart jan, I wanted to make sure you and all other Armenians to know that there is no more powerful weapon than idealogy!   That is why victory belong to us!

  343. Papken:  I believe Seervart meant ‘made from the same mold’ as in pouring molten metal into a mold, Կաղապար, not Գաղափար.
    Just the same, you are right: no more powerful weapon than ideology.

    Gayane: although underlining is shown as an option @AW post-entry, it gets discarded after you submit.

  344. Papken jan,
    “Seervart jan, there is no more powerful weapon than ideology!”

    How true Papken, how true!  Ever since that I could remember, I have always been that person who lived all her life with an ideology.  The great cause to save the world and with it our one and only Armenia !!!!!

  345. Papken jan, You know, when our Fedayis were fighting in Artsakh, they were all fighting with the greatest belief that they were doing the right thing as their country belonged to them from time immemorial, it was part of their blood and it was and is part of their existence.  That’s why they won.   They won with that same ideology that you and I are speaking about, and the outcome as history knows it…. We Won and we shall Win Again!!!!!

  346. The party line is showing its hand here in a rather obvious way…blame the victim…this ‘tragedy’, aka, the genocide, was the fault of the murdered people, not of those who weilded the bayonets and swords. There seems to be no acknowledgment of the massive power of the Ottoman empire’s army and its ability to mobilize paid surrogates (aka, Kurds), to carry out raids against Armenians. In an unstable situation, where a government or ruling group feels threatened and is bankrupt, it is rather easy for almost anyone to be lured into participating in the evil deeds that comprise genocide. Propaganda aimed at the targets is on the rise and the masses of uneducated, poor people are then convinced that they themselves are the victims…it is called transference and can be very convincing and successful as a strategy. 

    Almost 100 years later, we, as Armenians, if we want to change hearts and minds in Turkey, need to realize that several generations there have been fed a steady stream of anti-Armenian propaganda, that includes ignoring the (overall positive) Armenian contribution to their country’s history and culture, and focusing on the tiny fraction of Armenians who justifiably took up arms in self-defense after years of abuse, massacre and oppressive taxation. The only way to do this is with honest education, facts and discussion, because hard truth is much stronger than any threat or insult you can throw in their direction.  Like young Arabs across the Muslim world who want to throw off the shackles of dictatorship, many young Turks are hungry for and want the truth – not the set of lies put forth by the inheritors of the CUP.

     

  347. I doubt Armenian peasants could accumulated that sort of wealth. I can  understand that you want to impose your ideas on to the other people. I get the impression that you aren’t ready to coexist with Turks in the eastern Anatolia. As far as I can understand from your words either you will remove the Turks or other way around.Would you prefer to live with Turks in Turkey or live in USA which is a free country? Would you prefer to  speak Turkish which is a primitive language or speak an international language? Would you prefer to earn $400 in Turkey or $1500 a month in USA? 

    I was joking when I said please finance my removal. Thank you for your offer anyway. I will buy a donkey to ride. 

  348. There was this mythical
    paradise called Ottoman Empire, where Christians and Muslims lived happily as
    equals.

    Turks, whom the indigenous Armenians had invited to come in from their homeland
    near the Altai Mountains, treated their gracious hosts with great respect and
    love. Armenian boys, girls, and young women were lovingly abducted and
    subjected to …. lovemaking.

     

    Avery, we don’t need
    nonsense hate and discrimination stories, fact is that  peaceful times were available for centuries.
    Turks respected Armenians and treated them well and Armenians respected the
    Turks as well. When Anatolia became home to the Turks, the Armenians benefited
    from the just, humane, tolerant and unifying traditions and beliefs of their
    new Turkish neighbors, it can even be called the golden age of Armenians. You
    should read also none biased and none hatred books, blogs, you should read
    books and reports that tell the truth. Only this will give peace, to all of us.
    Of course there were bad and horrible times, but for both communities it was
    horrible, both sides did wrong things, that you can’t deny. But just don’t try to
    exaggerate and distort the facts and stories please, this is no help. Otherwise
    it’s seems to me through demonizing the Turks you try to gather support until
    you have the means to get what you want, I SAY a BIG NO to IT. Through manipulation
    you will get nothing but only more unnecessary hatred, a nice future that you
    guys are planting. In fact I would like to see a peaceful good neighborly future, but how when so many radicals hate Turks.

  349. Why do we look like Turks??? We DONT look like TUrks.. .Turks look like US… unfortunately, indigenous Armenian race was fair skin and light eyes..  you know why this dynamic changed over?? ummmmmmm….welllll… knowing that your capacity of true history is limited or simply just not there, i would say because of rape, forceful marriages and adbuctions of beautiful Armenian women by your barbaric ancestors…

    Madam Gayane,  
    The only barbaric things I see are ugly hatred, nothing else. But we are not surprised, growing up with manipulated and exaggerates stories about Turks some finding pleasure by it (Avery,Gayane), one should not wonder. I wished you had more humanity in yourself. Our ancestors the Seljuk’s were more successful than Byzantine that is all; you don’t need to call others barbaric because you had no good history (Before controlled by others, not independent for centuries). At least for centuries we lived in peace, go through proper history. Calling Seljuk’s as
    barbaric and uncivilized is just hatred and ignorance, the Seljuk empire was a vast empire and with high civilization, and with strong military power.

  350. Your personal feelings have no bearing on facts.  Your personal doubt or conviction has no factual value. Obviously you did not read the article @TodaysZaman by İsmail Beşikçi (an ethnic Turk BTW).
     
    Just the same, I’ll refer you to an article right here: http://armenianweekly.com/2011/08/11/gunaysu-denial/
     
    Here is the relevant paragraph:
     
    [ I once more quote from Confiscation and Destruction: “Commerce in the interior was heavily Armenian in the east (and Greek in the west), even though Turks were also involved in domestic trade. For example, in 1884, of the 110 merchants in the north-eastern provincial capital Trabzon, for domestic and international trade a vital port city, 40 were Armenian and 42, Pontic Greek. According to a 1913 study on Anatolia by the Armenian parliamentarian and writer Krikor Zohrab, of the 166 importers, 141 were Armenians and 13, Turks. Of the 9,800 shopowners and craftsmen, 6,800 were Armenians and 2,550, Turks; of the 150 exporters, 127 were Armenians and 23 Turks; of the 153 industrialists, 130 were Armenians and 20 were Turks; and finally, of the 37 bankers, 32 were Armenians. In the six eastern provinces, 32 Armenian moneylenders plied their trade versus only 5 Turkish ones. On the eve of the genocide, in early 1915, of the 264 Ottoman industrial establishments, only 42 belonged to Muslims and 172 to non-Muslims. 5  ]  (emphasis mine)
     
     
    Your blind hatred for Armenians and your belief in the  Turks’  inherent (alleged) genetic superiority clearly shows in this sentence: I doubt Armenian peasants could accumulated that sort of wealth.’ Obviously, uneducated Armenian peasants, who were eking out a sustenance existence under the benevolent gaze and tutelage of their intellectually superior Turk masters could not possibly have been anything but farm animals on two legs. And clearly the delusion that those things could possibly have had accumulated any wealth at all is a ‘fabrication by defeated Armenians’. (don’t you like that phrase ?)

  351. Armenians have ALWAYS been superior in their intellect, culture, arts,
    music, trade than Turks.. maybe after you realize this much, then you will understand why your ancestors attempted to wipe out a race tha they were intimidated of…so don’t act like the Ottomans allowed Armenians to be rich businessmen, or built churches and schools…. so you stand corrected on this statement ….
    I’ll try to help and advice you, no one is superior then the other. Have a good character be a good person and live in peace with your environment that makes someone superior not the things
    you are claiming. Second, anyone who studies and is devoted to education will
    get knowledge, because God / Allah gave humans the capability to learn and to
    read. So you should stop, being purely nationalistic. Further intellectuals from the Armenian side were available no one denies that, and we appreciate that as well, but they  don’t need to be
    used and hijacked by you in order to make yourself superior as the so called ‘True Armenian’, you don’t respect even moderate and friendly thinking Armenians. Even though you live maybe in the US or other places it seems that you have not received the basic modern attitude and education in today’s World. That is respect for all people. A barbaric attitude is displayed here against Turks
    but of course I know where the fault lies , not by you but by the barbaric Turks.
    Thanks for remindingJ I guess the bad weather is also because of the barbaric Turks

  352. Anadolu: one of my capable compatriots will respond to your post forthwith, by my leave. 
    I need to take a short break.

  353. Joseph,
    A mixed culture brings more traditions together, no one will deny that and of course Armenians same as Greeks have a nice cuisine culture. I once ate the rice from Kazakhs and East
    Turkistan people; they had almost the same food as in today’s Turkey. Rice prepared with butter, but they use definitely more butter than we use in Turkey. Or Izgara/Grill very famous in Turkey, they made the same things, so it seems that we still have the same cuisines as our ancestors. Please don’t forget the Tatars and Khazars, (Khazars adopted in the 5 or 6th century Judaism)
    which were the only Turkish tripe to adopt Judaism, I guess. And don’t forget also the Turks who migrated to today’s Hungary. So what we learn from this, migration is a human attitude. Some did it before some later.

  354. That priest had every right to notify outside forces about the situation. Where else could he turn, the Ottoman authorities? The ones that were committing this crime? Would you trust
    a government that is terrorizing your people?
    Dear Joseph
    From that report I tried to show that the priest exaggerated a lot and thereby he tried to manipulate the authorities in order to get support against the Ottoman government. We all know the falsified and untrue stories and how dangerous they can be for a country, for instance the attack on Iraq 2003, the so called WMD were never found, WMD were a pretext in order to invade Iraq.

  355. Andolu, please.  You are confusing long periods where minorities ‘accepted’ a life as second class citizens  as periods of ‘peace’ in the Ottoman empire.  There is a difference between true respect between equals and what is mistaken as respect between superiors and their subordinates who do what they must to protect themselves and their families from retribution.  If there was true respect between Turks and the ‘minorities’ in the empire, there would have been equal laws and equal opportunities.  There wasn’t.
     
    When subordinated people become enlightened to their basic human rights and begin to aspire to live as equal citizens within their society, the dominant group has two choices:  to adapt their attitudes and their laws and mores to accept this change; or to increase repression even to the point of violence.  It is clear which choice the CUP government made.  
     
    Andolu, you believe a myth of a golden period which falsely glorifies the Ottoman empire.  This myth does not honestly acknowledge the abuse of minority groups in the empire.  How can you ignore the many massacres against Armenians other minorities and claim a ‘golden period.’  Armenians had a “golden period” in the 5th century, while Turks were still marauding in the Altai mountains.  We were building architectural marvels while your ancestors were living in tents and caves.  You need to read history from non-Turk, independent sources to understand what your people destroyed, what you claimed for yourselves, who built your empire,  and who you subjugated.  
     
    There is a reason that Turks feel they are being denigrated and criticized.  You are.  You are because you fail to face the truth about your history of abuse of power and unwillingness to let people choose their own identities.    You want to be accepted by pluralistic societies but are intolerant of pluralism in your own land and unwilling to pay for the abuses against others.  Hrant Dink died trying to teach you this and Orhan Pamuk has been forced to look over his shoulder for the rest of his life rather than be exalted as a great writer in his homeland.
     
    I don’t know if there ever was a true golden period anywhere, but I don’t think that the years when Ottomans subjugated Christian minorities was golden, nor do I think this modern republican period in which Turks tried to artificially assert that these lands belonged to Turks is golden.  Far from it.
     

  356. Karekin,I’m touched & you’ve expressed it beautifully.Hope that our Turkish commentators grasp what you’ve written & question themselves.Their position is not easy.

  357. Anadolu,occupation & slavery was not our golden age.We always lived as 2nd class citizens,with fear & were always scapegoats…Comparatively this period of time was heaven compared with the Genocide.So before & after Genocide.Since we are in the period of after Genocide we are still awaiting for justice & instead we only get denial & this is considered as another Genocide.

  358. I think it is fair to say that Armenians on the  whole during the Ottoman centuries led a faitly good existence if you compare with other groups. It was also characterised by what you call status incongruity, I berlieve. While Muslims were regarding as the ruling class (millet.i hakimiye, wasnt it? )the Armenians were overrepresenated among the richers layers of the society

  359. Aweeeeeeeeeeeee. so much brotherly and sisterly love is shared from Anadolu and Monastras.. oh my… too much to handle.. truly…. we are touched by your kindness and your love…

    Anadolu— you said
    but for both communities it was horrible, both sides did wrong things, that you can’t deny

    I am sorry, I must have misread or gotten the wrong information about the history because no where it said Armenians did wrong to Turks  INTENTIONALLY!!!!.. Please do provide sources where it specifically states that the ENTIRE ARMENIAN population took arms against Turks, where women, children and elderly organized secret organizations to go after ordinary Turks, where Armenians took all the wealth, property and made them theirs.. please do provide… i am curious to read this myself…please make sure to name the authors and the books..

    You said: When Anatolia became home to the Turks, the Armenians benefited
    from the just, humane, tolerant and unifying traditions and beliefs of their
    new Turkish neighbors

    Please provide a source where it specifically says Armenians benefited from the group of people who had no identity, no culture, no civilization, no wealth, and no place among more advanced nations…. you do know where your ancestors came from right?? either you know it but act dumb or you don’t know it;  which makes it even worst because if one has no idea yet comments anyway, he or she truly puts a HUGE spotlight on how much he or she lacks in knowledge..either way… until you produce something where it shows Turks brought what Armenians did not have before Turks arrival to our lands and created such paradise for Armenians that no other nation saw or experienced, I would suggest you keep your mouth shot…Thank you very much……

    You said:
    But just don’t try to
    exaggerate and distort the facts and stories please, this is no help. Otherwise
    it’s seems to me through demonizing the Turks you try to gather support until
    you have the means to get what you want, I SAY a BIG NO to IT.

    That is right Anadolu.. you are absolutely right.. Your govt shoved lies in your heads for so long that you can’t distinguish between what is right and what is wrong. to the degree where you blame the victims for your ancestors bloody deeds.. to the degree where you can’t wake up from your amnesia.. so yes i say STOP demonizing ARmenians to try to make them bunch of liars to cover up for the murder of 1.5-2 million innocent people, so yes I say STOP exaggerating and distorting history to fit into your govt cover ups..one day everything will burst open..so why not come out of your closets??? only guilty will do everything in their power such as paying millions and millions of dollars to politicians and threatens others in order to keep the lies and the skeleton in the closet (aka TUrkish govt plus their denialists followers).. how do you explain that???? i bet you can’t.. so instead of preaching to those who know WHAT HAPPENED.. why don’t you preach to your other denialists close Neo-Ottoman mentality friends…

    Until Armenians get justice for all the innocent souls your barbaric ancestors took as well as our property and wealth, you can’t and will not be living amongst us who know what true humanity is… and know what it means love thy neighbor….

    Gayane       
      

  360. Please explain your point, Ragnar?  So some Armenians learned how to be successful despite the circumstance of being second class citizens.  And some Armenians lived well.  Does this negate the lack of equal rights and protections under the law of the minorities?  Does this invalidate the aspirations for self-determination that emerged among Armenians as it had in other nation groups in the empire?  Does this on some level excuse any of the brutality that was employed to “quiet” their demands.
     

  361. Monastras:

    You said:
    I doubt Armenian peasants could accumulated that sort of wealth. I can  understand that you want to impose your ideas on to the other people. I get the impression that you aren’t ready to coexist with Turks in the eastern Anatolia.

    I guess if Armenians were peasants when your babarian ancestors did not even know how to build an actual home, then why did the Ottomans (if they were such rich, and mighty Empire) systematically murder, rape, mutilate and deporte 1.5-2 million innocent people??? It would not be for the Armenians’ poor, broken down homes, or for their poor pocket books or for the dry and unproductive lands, or for their ugly and crumbling churches or for their lack of education/intelligence…..would it??? hmmmmm if that is the case, i can’t IMAGINE why your barbarian ancestors would go in so much trouble carrying out a Genocide if they had nothing to gain by disposing of the Armenians. you making such a statement really shows your lack of education and understanding… can you say “huhh???? what?? who am I? where am I? MOnastras…   

    You said:
    I was joking when I said please finance my removal. Thank you for your offer anyway. I will buy a donkey to ride.
     
    nooooooooooooooooooo reallyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy???? bummer.. and i thought you were serious…oh well…

    Monastras.. you can’t be riding a donkey.. you are worth more than that… are not you?? you are someone who is worthy of a horse and Avery was nice enough to offer a down payment for it.. we can’t let you suffer like that…donkey’s are cute and dandy but the trip would be too rough.. it is not cool… no.. can’t have that.. sorry…

    Gayane     

  362. Ragnar: really??? really?? you really know this because you lived in those times and you were friends with my ancestors?? did you have Armenian coffee and byorek with my great great grandparents and they told you all about the beautiful lives amongst the barbarians??? MINUS the ordinary and innocent Turks who were actually there to help the massacred Armenians.. wecan’t bow our heads to them because some risked their lives to protect Armenians and I am forever thankful to them… OR you have a HUGE bias when it comes to ARmenians and Turks… your statement below is YET ANOTHER perfect example how you view the Turkish side: loving, caring, humane, proper, always willing to help the poor minorities…this is why i believe you will never be a neutral party on these pages.. you are too lovey dovey toward Turks…..

    ragnar naess
    August 24, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    I think it is fair to say that Armenians on the  whole during the Ottoman centuries led a faitly good existence if you compare with other groups. It was also characterised by what you call status incongruity, I berlieve. While Muslims were regarding as the ruling class (millet.i hakimiye, wasnt it? )the Armenians were overrepresenated among the richers layers of the society

  363. Bedrosyan: Որոնվում է Lost հայերեն Եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցների Թուրքիայում

    Dear ՀԵՐՄԻՆԷ, this is Armenian translation of this article as you wished!
    By: Րաֆֆի Bedrosyan
    (Հայերեն շաբաթաթերթ) – Հուլիսի 21 – ին ԱՄՆ Ներկայացուցիչների պալատի Արտաքին գործերի կոմիտեն ընդունել է ճնշող մեծամասնությունը Բերմանը – Cicilline փոփոխությունը հիման վրա վերադարձը եկեղեցիների ներկայացուցիչների կողմից բանաձեւի spearheaded Ed Royce ու Հովարդ Բերմանը, որի համար 43 – ից մինչեւ 1 – ին, կոչ անելով Թուրքիային վերադառնալ գողացել հայերեն եւ այլ քրիստոնեական եկեղեցիներ, եւ վերջ ռեպրեսիաների իր քրիստոնյա փոքրամասնությունների.

    Հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայում մինչեւ 1915 թ.

    Որտեղ են այդ կորած կամ գողացված հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայում. Ինչպես շատերն էին այնտեղ մինչեւ 1915 թ շրջադարձային հայերի աշխարհը, երբ նրանք էին uprooted եւ wiped դուրս իրենց հայրենիքում ավելի քան 3000 տարի. Քանի եկեղեցի կա հիմա. Հաշվի առնելով, որ յուրաքանչյուր համայնք հայերեն invariably strove է կառուցել դպրոցի կողքին իր եկեղեցին, թե շատ հայերեն դպրոցներ կան Թուրքիայում մինչեւ 1915, եւ թե շատ կան հիմա? Քանի հայերեն եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ են մնացել կանգնած այժմ Թուրքիայում ավելի հեշտ է մի հարցի `ընդամենը 34 եկեղեցի եւ 18 դպրոցներում այսօր մեկնել է Թուրքիա, հիմնականում Ստամբուլում, մոտ քիչ, քան 3000 ուսանողների շրջանում այդ դպրոցներում: Որ դժվարին ու ողջ դառնությունն այն է, թե հարցը շատ կային նախկինում.

    Վերջին ուսումնասիրությունները ցցիկներ թիվը հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայի առաջ 1915 – ին, ժամը մոտ 2,300. Այդ դպրոցների թիվը մինչեւ 1915 – ը գնահատվում է մոտ 700, իսկ 82,000 ուսանողների. Այս թվերը են միայն եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ իրավասության տակ Ստամբուլի հայերեն պատրիարքարանի եւ առաքելական սուրբ եկեղեցու, եւ, հետեւաբար, չեն ներառում է բազմաթիվ եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ պատկանող բողոքական եւ կաթոլիկ հայերեն parishes. Ամերիկյան քոլեջների եւ դպրոցների միսիոներ, հիմնականում մասնակցում են երիտասարդները հայերեն են նաեւ բացառեց այդ թվերը. Թիվը հայերեն յաճախող ուսանողներու թուրքական դպրոցները, կամ փոքր դպրոցներ են տները գյուղերում անհայտ են, եւ ներառված չէ: Վերջապես, այդ թվերը չեն ներառում եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ են Կարսի եւ Արդահանի մարզերում, որոնք չեն կազմում Թուրքիայի մինչեւ 1920, եւ մի մասը Ռուսաստանին, քանի որ 1878 թ.

    Հայերեն դպրոցների Թուրքիայում մինչեւ 1915 թ.

    Երկու քարտեզները ցույց են տալիս լայն տարածում հայերեն եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ Թուրքիայի առաջ 1915 թ. Երկու ցուցակները համար հայերեն եկեղեցիներն ու դպրոցները ոչ մի կերպ ամբողջական, բայց պետք է համարվեն որպես նախնական ուսումնասիրությունը, որը կարող է ծառայել որպես հիմք հետագա հետազոտություններ: Տեղը անունները հիմնված են հին օսմանյան վարչական համակարգում, փոխարեն որ ժամանակակից Թուրքիան. Նրանք հավաքվել են վարպետորեն Zakarya Mildanoglu, տարբեր աղբյուրներից, ինչպես օրինակ `Օսմանյան հայերեն ազգային խորհրդի տարեկան հաշվետվություններ, Էջմիածին ամսագրի Վիեննայի Mkhitarists, եւ ուսումնասիրություններ են Teotig, Գեւորգյան, եւ Nishanyan.

    Կորսված Եկեղեցիներ

    Ադանա: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Yureghir, Ջեյհան, Tarsus, Silifke, Yumurtalik, Dortyol, Iskenderun, 25 եկեղեցի

    Amasya: Vezirkopru, Mecitozu, Merzifon, Havza, Gumushacikoy, Ladik, 15 եկեղեցի

    Անկարա. Կենտրոն, Haymana, Sincan, 5 եկեղեցիների

    Antakya. Կենտրոն, Samandagh, 7 եկեղեցի

    Antep. Կենտրոն, Nizip, Halfeti, 4 եկեղեցի

    Arapkir (Մալաթիա) Arapkir եւ Kemaliye գյուղեր, 19 եկեղեցի

    Arganimadeni (Elazig) Erganis, Siverek, Bulanik, Kahta, 10 եկեղեցի

    Արմաշի (Akmeshe): 2 եկեղեցիները

    Artvin: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

    Բալըքեսիր: Բալըքեսիր, Mustafakemalpasha, Biga, Bandirma, 6 եկեղեցիների

    Bayburt: Bayburt կենտրոն ու գյուղերում, 34 եկեղեցի

    Beshiri (Դիարբեքիր) Beshiri ու գյուղերում, 14 եկեղեցի

    Bilecik (Բուրսա) Golpazar, 4 եկեղեցի

    Bingol (Genc): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

    Բիթլիս: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, 30 եկեղեցի

    Բիթլիս: Tatvan, Ahlat, Mutki, Hizan, 66 եկեղեցի

    Բոլու: Duzce, Akyazi, 5 եկեղեցիների

    Բուրսա. Կենտրոն, Orhangazi, 11 եկեղեցի

    Charsancak (Թունջելին) Mazgirt, pertek, Pulumur, Hozat, եւ գյուղեր, 93 եկեղեցի

    Chemishgezek (Թունջելին): 20 եկեղեցիները

    Chungush (Դիարբեքիր) Chungush կենտրոն ու գյուղեր, 2 եկեղեցի

    Դերսիմի: Hozat, Pertek, 28 եկեղեցի

    Divrigi (Sivas) կենտրոնի ու գյուղեր, 25 եկեղեցի

    Diyadin (Էրզրում): Diyadin ու գյուղեր, 4 – եկեղեցիներ

    Դիարբեքիրի `Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

    Էդիրն: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 4 – եկեղեցիներ

    Egin (Erzincan) Kemaliye, Ilic, եւ գյուղեր, 17 եկեղեցի

    Egin: 3 եկեղեցիները

    Eleshkirt (Էրզրում): Eleshkirt ու գյուղեր, 6 եկեղեցիների

    Ergani: Ergani ու գյուղեր, 11 եկեղեցի

    Erzincan: Erzincan կենտրոն ու գյուղեր, 52 եկեղեցի

    Էրզրում. Կենտրոն, Aziziye, Yakutiye, Ashkale, Narman, Ispir, Oltu, Shenkaya, Horasan, Pazaryolu, եւ գյուղեր, 65 եկեղեցի

    Giresun: Tirebolu, 1 եկեղեցի

    Gumushane. Կենտրոն, 4 եկեղեցի

    Gurun (Sivas): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, եկեղեցիներ 5

    Harput (Elazig) Harput կենտրոն ու գյուղեր, Karakochan, Palu, Keban, 67 եկեղեցի

    Hinis (Էրզրում): Hinis ու գյուղեր, 19 եկեղեցի

    Hoshap: Hoshap ու գյուղերում, 14 եկեղեցի

    Ստամբուլում: Եվրոպական / Trachean մարզի 36 եկեղեցիներ, ասիական / Անատոլիական շրջանում, 8 եկեղեցիներ, ընդհանուր 44 եկեղեցի

    Իզմիր: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Manisa, Turgutlu, Akhisar, Bergama, Nazilli, Odemish, 23 եկեղեցի

    Izmit: Gebze, Kocaeli, Sakarya, Kandira, Geyve, Karamursel, 50 եկեղեցի

    Kastamonu: Tashkopru, Boyabat, Inebolu, 7 եկեղեցի

    Կայսրի: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Nigde, Aksaray, ԲՈՐ, Nevshehir, Tomarza, Develi, Bunyan, Talas, 57 եկեղեցի

    Kemah (Erzincan) Kemah ու գյուղերում, 14 եկեղեցի

    Kighi (Bingol) Kighi ու գյուղեր, 58 եկեղեցի

    Կոնիա: կենտրոն, ԲՈՐ, Burdur, Nevshehir, 7 եկեղեցի

    Kutahya. Կենտրոն, Tavshanli, 7 եկեղեցի

    Lice: Lice ու գյուղեր, 19 եկեղեցի

    Մարդին: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, 3 եկեղեցի

    Մուշում: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, սպասավոր, Malazgirt, Bulanik, Varto, Hizan, 148 եկեղեցի

    Ordu: Karaduz, Ulubey, 3 եկեղեցի

    Palu (Elazig) Palu կենտրոն, Kovancilar, Karakochan, եւ գյուղեր, 44 եկեղեցի

    Pasinler (Էրզրում): Pasinler ու գյուղեր, 4 – եկեղեցիներ

    Pulumur (Թունջելին) Pulumur ու գյուղեր, 6 եկեղեցիների

    Ռիզե: Yolusti, 1 եկեղեցի

    Սամսուն (Canik): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղեր, 43 եկեղեցի

    Սամսունում: Ordu, 1 եկեղեցի

    Shebin karahisar: Shebinkaya կենտրոն, Giresun, եւ մի մասը Sivas, 32 եկեղեցի

    Սիլվան (Դիարբեքիր): Սիլվան ու գյուղերում, 34 եկեղեցի

    Sivas: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Hafik, Զառա, Ulash, Yildizeli, Sariz, Bunyan / Ekrek, Gemerek, 110 եկեղեցի

    Tercan (Erzincan) եւ Erzincan Tercan գյուղեր, 33 եկեղեցի

    Tokat: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, 32 եկեղեցի

    Տրապիզոնի: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, եւ, Machka, Surmene, Akchaabat, Fatsa, Yorma, Arakli, 89 եկեղեցի

    Ուրֆայի: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Birecik, Siverek, Suruch, Hikvan, Harran, Bozova, Halfeti, 17 եկեղեցի

    Վան `Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Edremit, Gurpinar, Edremit, ozalp, Ercish, Timar, muradiye, Tatvan, Bashkale, Gevash, Bahchesaray, Chatak 322 եկեղեցի

    Yozgat: Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում, Bogazliyan, Sarikaya, Cayiralan, Sorgun, Shefaatli, եւ գյուղեր, 51 եկեղեցի

    Yusufeli (Artvin): Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերի եկեղեցիները: 4

    Զեյթուն (Մարաշ) `Կենտրոն եւ գյուղերում եկեղեցիներ 14

    Կորսված Դպրոցներ

    Ադանա: 25 դպրոցներ, 1.947 տղաները, 808 աղջիկներ, 2755 ուսանողներ, 40 արական, 29 իգական, 69 ուսուցիչներ

    Ախթամար: 32 դպրոցներ, 1.106 տղաները, 132 աղջիկներ, 1238 ուսանողներ, 36 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

    Amasya – Merzifon: 9 դպրոցներ, 1.524 տղաները, 814 աղջիկներ, 2.338 աշակերտներ, 54 ուսուցիչներ

    Անկարան: 7 դպրոցներում, 895 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 395, 1,290 ուսանողներ, 20 արական, իգական 9, 29 ուսուցիչներ

    Antakya, 10 դպրոց, 440 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 47, 487 աշակերտներ, 10 ուսուցիչներ արական

    Antep: 9 դպրոց, 898 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 798, 1606 ուսանողներ, 31 արական, 27 իգական, 58 ուսուցիչներ

    Arapkir: 18 դպրոց, 713 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 223, 936 ուսանողներ, 23 արական, իգական 2, 25 ուսուցիչներ

    Արմաշի: 2 դպրոց, 190 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 110, 300 ուսանողներ, 5 արական, 1 իգական, 6 ուսուցիչներ

    Bandirma: 8 դպրոցներում, 700 տղաներ, 644 աղջիկներ, 1.344 ուսանողներ, 22 արական, 13 իգական, 35 ուսուցիչներ

    Bayburt: 9 դպրոց, 645 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 199, 844 ուսանողներ, 27 արական, իգական 5, 32 ուսուցիչներ

    Beyazit: 6 դպրոցներ, 338 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 54, 392 ուսանողներ, 11 արական, իգական, 2, 13 ուսուցիչներ

    Bilecik `10 դպրոց, 1.120 տղաները, 143 աղջիկներ, 1.263 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, 3 իգական, 21 ուսուցիչներ

    Բիթլիս, 12 դպրոց, 571 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 63, 634 աշակերտներ, 20 ուսուցիչներ արական

    Բուրսա `16 դպրոց, 1345 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 733, 2078 ուսանողներ, 34 արական, 20 իգական, 54 ուսուցիչներ

    Charsancak `12 դպրոց, 617 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 189, 806 ուսանողներ, 16 արական, իգական 2, 18 ուսուցիչներ

    Chemishgezek `12 դպրոց, 456 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 272, 728 ուսանողներ, 14 արական, 1 իգական, 15 ուսուցիչներ

    Կիպրոս: 3 դպրոց, տղաների 63, 37 աղջիկ, 100 ուսանողներ, 8 արական, 1 իգական, 9 ուսուցիչ

    Darende: 2 դպրոց, 260 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 70, 330 ուսանողներ, 4 արական, 1 իգական, 5 ուսուցիչներ

    Divrigi `10 դպրոց, 757 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 100, 857 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, իգական 2, 20 ուսուցիչներ

    Դիարբեքիրում: 4 դպրոցների, 660 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 324, 1014 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, իգական 9, 27 ուսուցիչներ

    Egin: 4 դպրոցների, 541 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 215, 756 ուսանողներ, 13 արական, իգական 9, 22 ուսուցիչներ

    Erzincan: 22 դպրոցներ, 1389 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 475, 1864 ուսանողներ, 54 արական, իգական 9, 63 ուսուցիչներ

    Էրզրում `12 դպրոց, 485 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 10, 495 աշակերտներ, 12 ուսուցիչներ արական

    Էրզրում: 27 դպրոցներ, 1.956 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 1.178, 3134 ուսանողներ, 44 արական, 41 իգական, 85 ուսուցիչներ

    Gurun `12 դպրոց, 736 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 78, 814 ուսանողներ, 18 արական, իգական 2, 20 ուսուցիչներ

    Harput: 27 դպրոցներ, 2.058 տղաները, 496 աղջիկներ, 2.554 ուսանողներ, 49 արական, իգական 9, 58 ուսուցիչներ

    Hinis: 8 դպրոցներում, 352 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 15, 367 ուսանողներ, 11 արական, 1 իգական, 12 ուսուցիչներ

    Ispir (artvin): 3 դպրոցներ, 80 տղաներ, 3 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

    Ստամբուլի: 40 դպրոցներ, 3.316 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 2.327, 5.643 ուսանողներ:

    Իզմիր: 27 դպրոցներ, 1.640 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 1.295, 2.935 ուսանողներ, 55 արական, 54 իգական, 109 ուսուցիչներ

    Izmit: 38 դպրոցներ, 5,900 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 3.385, 9.285 ուսանողներ, 142 Արական, 82 իգական, 224 ուսուցիչներ

    Kastamonu, 3 դպրոց, 110 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 50, 160 ուսանողներ, 2 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

    Կայսրի: 42 դպրոցներ, 3.795 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 1140, 4.935 ուսանողներ, 107 արական, 18 իգական, 125 ուսուցիչներ

    Kemah: 13 դպրոց, 646 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 28, 674 աշակերտներ, 16 ուսուցիչներ արական

    Kighi: 9 դպրոց, 645 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 199, 844 ուսանողներ, 27 արական, իգական 5, 32 ուսուցիչներ

    Կոնիա, 3 դպրոց, 213 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 137, 350 ուսանողներ, 6 արական, իգական 6, 12 ուսուցիչներ

    Kutahya `5 դպրոց, տղաների 825, 349 աղջիկներ, 1174 ուսանողներ, 16 արական, իգական 7, 23 ուսուցանում

    Լիմ եւ Gduts կղզիներ, Վան: 3 դպրոցների, 203 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 56, 259 ուսանողներ, 5 արական, 1 իգական 6 ուսուցիչների համար

    Մալաթիա, 9 դպրոց, տղաների 872, 230 աղջիկներ, 1.137 ուսանողներ, 16 արական, 3 իգական, 19 ուսուցիչներ

    Մարաշ: 23 դպրոցներ, 1.261 տղաները, 378 աղջիկներ, 1.669 ուսանողներ, 34 արական, 10 իգական, 44 ուսուցիչներ

    Մուշ: 23 դպրոցներ, 1.034 տղաները, 284 աղջիկներ, 1318 ուսանողներ, 31 արական, իգական 4, 35 ուսուցիչներ

    Palu: 8 դպրոցներում, 505 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 50, 555 ուսանողներ, 14 արական, 1 իգական, 15 ուսուցիչներ

    Pasen: 7 դպրոցներում, 315 տղաներ, 7 տղամարդ ուսուցիչների

    Սամսուն (Canik) 27 դպրոցներ, 1.361 տղաները, 344 աղջիկներ, 1.705 ուսանողներ, 44 արական, 15 իգական, 59 ուսուցիչներ

    Shebinkarahisar: 27 դպրոցներ, 2.040 տղաները, 105 աղջիկներ, 2.145 ուսանողներ, 38 արական, իգական 4, 42 ուսուցիչներ

    Siirt: 3 դպրոցների, 163 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 84, 247 ուսանողներ, 9 արական, իգական 2, 11 ուսուցիչներ

    Սիս / Կիլիկիայում: 7 դպրոցներում, 476 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 165, 641 ուսանողներ, 15 արական, իգական 4, 19 ուսուցիչներ

    Sivas: 46 դպրոցներ, 4.072 տղաները, 459 աղջիկներ, 4.531 ուսանողներ, 62 արական, 11 իգական, 73 ուսուցիչներ

    Tokat: 11 դպրոցներ, 1.408 տղաները, 558 աղջիկներ, 1.966 ուսանողներ, 37 արական, 13 իգական, 50 ուսուցիչներ

    Տրապիզոն: 47 դպրոցներ, 2.184 տղաները, 718 աղջիկներ, 2.902 ուսանողներ, 72 արական, 13 իգական, 85 ուսուցիչներ

    Ուրֆայի: 8 դպրոցներում, 1.091 տղաները, 571 աղջիկներ, 1.662 ուսանողներ, 19 արական, իգական 7, 26 ուսուցիչներ

    Վան `21 դպրոցներ, 1.323 տղաները, 554 աղջիկներ, 1.877 ուսանողներ, 47 արական, 12 իգական, 59 ուսուցիչներ

    Yozgat: 12 դպրոցներ, 1.179 տղաները, 557 աղջիկներ, 1.736 ուսանողներ, 30 արական, 13 իգական, 43 ուսուցիչներ

    Զեյթուն `10 դպրոց, 605 տղաներ, աղջիկներ 85, 690 ուսանողներ, 14 արական, 1 իգական, 15 ուսուցիչներ

    Այս եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ են կենդանի էակի արյուն էր Թուրքիայում: Այս շենքերը ականատես բազմաթիվ հայերի մկրտություններ, հարսանիքներից, թաղումներից եւ, նրանք ծառայել են որպես կրթական կենտրոններում, որտեղ ցանկանում տեղափոխվել ուսուցիչների գիտելիքներն են երեխաներին, եւ այդ շենքերի դարձան համայնքի հավաքը կենտրոններ ուրախ անգամ եւ սրբատեղիներ ընթացքում անհանգիստ ժամանակներում, մինչեւ դառը ավարտվելու է 1915 թ. Ինչպես հայերեն բնակչության ստացել wiped դուրս Անատոլիայի 1915 թվականին, այնպես էլ այդ եկեղեցիներ եւ դպրոցներ: Հետ միասին հարյուր հազարավոր տներ, խանութներ, տնտեսություն, պտղատու այգիներ, գործարանները, պահեստների, եւ հանքերի պատկանող հայերի, եկեղեցու եւ դպրոցների շենքերը նույնպես անհետացել են փոխարկվում կամ այլ օգտագործում. Եթե ​​այրված եւ ավերվել է 1915 թ. Բացահայտ կամ մնացել է վատթարանալ կողմից անփութության, նրանք դարձան փոխարկվում շենքերի բանկերի, ռադիոկայաններ, մզկիթներ, պետական ​​դպրոցների, կամ պետական ​​մենաշնորհ պահեստների համար ծխախոտի, թեյ, շաքար, եւ այլն, կամ պարզապես առանձնատներով եւ ախոռներ համար թուրքերի եւ քրդերի:

    Ներկայումս, դուրս է 34 ակտիվ հայերեն եկեղեցիների Թուրքիայում, միայն 6 մնացել են կանգնած են Անատոլիայում. Ամենամեծ Սուրբ Կիրակոս եկեղեցու այդ շենքերի Dikranagerd / Դիարբեքիրում, ամենամեծ հայերեն եկեղեցին Մերձավոր Արեւելքում, որն այժմ վերանորոգվում են որպես հայերեն եկեղեցին, իրավասության տակ Ստամբուլի պատրիարքարանի հայերեն. Գործընթացը կրկին պնդելով, ավելի քան 200 գործերի Կորցրած հողերի եւ գույքի պատկանող այս եկեղեցին նույնպես սկսվել. Նախագծի ֆինանսավորումը եւ շինարարական արդեն երկու – երրորդը ամբողջական, որի սպասվող եկեղեցու բացման եւ առաջին անգամ Սուրբ Պատարագ է, կատարվում է հոկտեմբերի 23, 2011 թ. Ներկայումս, ուխտագնացության շրջագայություններ են կազմակերպվում համար այս պատմական առիթով հետ մեկտեղ, այցելություններ այլ պատմական վայրերի Արեւելյան Թուրքիայում, օրինակ, Աղթամարի / Վան եւ Անի / Կարս, շարունակելով Հայաստան եւ Ջավախք: Ավելի շատ կլինեն այդ հայտարարությունները տուրեր մոտ ապագայում:

    Աղբյուրը `

    Zakarya Mildanoglu, Ակոս թերթի ապրիլի 22 – ին, 2011, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

    Օսմանյան հայերեն Ազգային խորհրդի տարեկան հաշվետվություններ 1910-1914, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

    Էջմիածին Journal, Երեւան, Հայաստան 1965-1966 բոլոր ամսագրերի

    Դոկտոր Հ. Համազասպ, հայերեն վանքեր Անատոլիայում, 9 ծավալները, Վիեննայի Մխիթարյան միությունը, 1940, Վիեննա, Ավստրիա

    Ռայմոնդ Գեւորգյանի եւ Փոլ Paboudjian, Les Arméniens dans L’կայսրության Օսմանյան à la veille du Հայոց ցեղասպանության (Հայերն Օսմանյան կայսրությունում Հայոց ցեղասպանության համար), Փարիզ, 1992 թ.

    Teotig Lapjinjian, Հայոց Koghkota (հայերեն Գողգոթա), 1923, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

    Vijagatsuyts, Kavaragan Azkayin Varjaranats Turkiyo, Dedr AB, Vicag 1901 Darvo (զեկույցը հայերեն դպրոցների Անատոլիայում (Թուրքիա), Բուկլետներ 1 – ին եւ 2, 1901 կարգավիճակից) հայերեն ազգային կրթության հանձնաժողովի Կենտրոնական տնօրինություն, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

    Սեւան Nishanyan, Adini Unutan Ulke (The երկիրն է, որ Մորացել իր անվանումը), Everest Press, 2010, Ստամբուլ, Թուրքիա

  364. ragnar naess,  I always wondered what literature—primary or secondary—you, as (nominally) a third party observer, read to make the following irresponsible statement:  “it is fair to say that Armenians on the whole during the Ottoman centuries led a fairly good existence.”  Do your readings into the subject include any other works than the ones by infamous McCarthy or Turkish distortionists? Or you read only a few dubious accounts that are in tune with your viewpoints? For instance, how can one interested in the subject not familiarize himself with Viscount Bryce’s A Summary of Armenian History up to and including the Year 1915? Bryce describes Armenians’ existence throughout the Ottoman centuries as follows: “They were not treated as citizens, because they were not even treated as men.” He states that “insecurity was the chronic condition of [Ottoman] Armenia”, that throughout centuries Armenians were considered rayah (‘cattle’, Tur.). Even when in the 19th century there occurred transformation from rayah to millet, Armenians, according to Bryce, have become “not yoke-oxen, but unshackled herds.” In all seriousness, whenever you read into the subject without prejudice (or even with prejudice knowing your favoritism towards the Turks), do you not come across this point repeated incessantly in many important foreign accounts?

  365. Once again….Armenians were still living on their own land after 5 – 6000 years!  If Armenians were ‘wealthy’, it was from the land, not from conquest. There is a big difference. Yes, Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule for quite a long time…no dispute there. They lived better than most subjugated peoples in other parts of the world. The question is….what happened in 1915?  Why did the CUP fall into genocidal insanity?  Why did they turn against their most productive and loyal citizens?  This is the real question. Even the sultans didn’t go beserk in such a genocidal way, because they were smart enough not to kill off the geese who gave the empire many golden eggs and much wealth, civilization and sophistication. But, the goons of the CUP did…tell us, why?  All the excuses offered really do not add up. They make no sense. I’m certain that intelligent Turks know this. Somehow, paid agents of the state keep pushing the same lame storyline in the western press, which shows that they will do anything for money – even lie about other people’s history and tragedy. These middlemen really need to be shamed for their dishonest behavior. Get rid of the ones carrying water for Turkey and this whole farce will dry up rather quickly.      

  366. “Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule for quite a long time…no dispute there.” Well, there is dispute there, Karekin. Living well and be treated well are two different things. First of all, Armenians’ “well-being” was highly disproportional: while many urban Armenians were well-to-do, most of rural Armenians lived in poverty. When we say Turks appropriated our wealth by mass murdering and forcibly deporting our ancestors, we mean not only the actual wealth of the urban Armenians, but the properties of the rural population: their houses, their pastures, their cattle, their personal belongings, etc. But to say that “Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule” is distorting. Those who lived “well”, mostly in the urban areas, secured their well-being not by the grace of Turks, but by their hard work, intrinsic wit, and industriousness. Nonetheless, for the Turks they were rayah and then millet: unprotected, voiceless, unrepresentative, and insecure. “Living well under the Ottoman empire” presupposes that the empire created favorable conditions for Armenians to live well. This is far from being the case. The only two “privileges” that Armenians had, were national language and restricted practice of religion. That Armenians were allowed to run businesses cannot be considered a favorable condition that Turks created for them, because, as you rightly stated, Turks were “smart enough not to kill off the geese who gave the empire many golden eggs and much wealth, civilization and sophistication.” You forgot to add unbearably high taxes from the revenues of Armenian businesses.
     
    Re: “the question is what happened in 1915?” Well, it happened earlier, before the CUP. I hate it when some commentators here covertly or openly allude to ethnic composition of the CUP and put the blame on Ittihadists, conveniently forgetting that first mass murders of the Armenians, in which up to 300,000 Armenians perished, happened during the Sultan rule, not the CUP regime. This effectively explains that the genocidal insanity started earlier than 1915 and is not connected with the CUP only, but with the Turkish ghastly attitude towards the Armenians, in general.

  367. DearGor, Iam glad you brought out Viscount Bryce’s notes.  Do you know the for instnace the famous “Khanasor Expedition” in Van, when the Arm. Revolutionary Federation left Van who were only there to protect the people from annihilations because the premediated murdering of the nation and the deportations has already started.  The Armenagans and the Henchagyans left the city to go to Persia and 800 unarmed civilians followed and went with them.  Although Tashnagtsoutyoun weren’t going to leave the city unarmed, but knowing the mind of the deceitful Seljuk Turks they send Bedo and 25 Fedayi      

  368. Gor jan, As my labtop is giving me problems to type, here goes the remainder of the “Khanasor Expedition” “Khanasori Arshavanke”:

    Tashnagtsoutyoun for protection they send Bedo with 25 Fedayis to run after the 800 unarmed civilian souls for protection when they were migrating to Persia to be able to save themselves from annihilations.  The Turkish Chieftain Sharaf Bey with his huge troops surrounded to attack Bedo and his 25 Fedayis who were in Saint Partholemeos Monastery, they fought and killed them.  Then they ran after the 800 unarmed Armenian civilians and murdered and annihilated everyone of them.

  369. gor
    I would like to return the question to you. What do you read? Bryce, which you mentioned, is hardly ever referred to in the historical literature, except for the fact that he worked with Arnold Toynbee in publishing the documents on the deportations and massacres in 1915-16. All documentation, handling of the material in that book is also the responsibility of Toynbee, not of Bryce. the chapter on history you mention, is that written by Bryce? Is it this one you are referring to? But if one reads the last comprehensive history of the Ottoman Empire, that of Caroline Finkel. which has received almost unanimous praise, I believe my characterization is correct, especially if you heed my qualification COMPARED TO OTHERS AT THE TIME and certainlyif one compares with the life of a reasonably well to do Norwegain or US citizen.  Jason Goodwin’s (1999)”Lords of the Horizons” I have not read for some time, but it gives about the same picture. Other general recent histories could be mentioned. But older European histories have often a general anti-turkish bias which is corrected today. This is not to deny that Armenians had problems. But we are then talking about the whole Ottoman period, arent we? Of course the end of the Armenian existence in Anatolia, the Armenian genocide, is quite something else. As I have repeated and repeated here, the Armenians have a just cause, but it is mistaken, although understandable, to see  the whole Ottoman Armenian history through the lens of the events of 1915-16 and the expusion from and fleeing of Armenians from Anatolia?   

  370. If I were alive from say, 1500 – 1860, I think I would have much preferred to live life as an Ottoman Armenian instead of as a Russian or Chinese serf, a west African (who very well might have been sold into slavery and lived in chains) or a native American.  During that period of history, probably more than 75% of the population around the world lived as true slaves.  For most of those 450 years (double the age of today’s US), there was no democracy as we know it anywhere in the world – let’s not forget, even in the US, women couldn’t vote and only white men could own land.  Despite its flaws, Armenians were living in one of the most cosmopolitan and sophisticated societies on earth, and had been thriving under the Ottoman system, which offered protection. They were also the inheritors of the previous Urartian, Arab, Greek, Persian and to a degree, Roman legacies. Armenia/Anatolia was not a backward part of the world – it was the center of it for a very long time.  Armenia was on the silk route and goods, services and people from all cultures passed thru on a daily basis. If the Ottoman empire had not gone down the costly road of multiple wars, which bled the treasury into bankruptcy and causing pain which rippled across all the provinces, I suspect Abdul Hamid’s terror and the CUP’s insanity might have not happened.  The minorities, who actually did all the real work, felt the brunt of this more than anyone, as they, as always, were expected to solve the massive financial problems created by their rulers. The rulers decided to resort to theft, pillage and expropriation, in addition to mass murder, as a solution. It was a complete and total disaster for Armenians, Greeks and others, and to a lesser extent, those who identified themselves as ‘Turks’.  Survivors lost their family names, their written language, their native dress, their religion and even their traditional forms of music – and none of that was due to anything Armenians did !  So, in reality, Armenians cannot be blamed for any of it. It was all self-created by the Ottoman state, no matter who was running the show.

  371. Returning questions is not a very polite manner, ragnar naess, but I’ll answer, nonetheless. Yes, I meant Arnold Toynbee, “A Summary of Armenian History up to and Including the Year 1915,” in Viscount Bryce, preface, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire 1915-16: Documents presented to Viscount Grey of Fallodon, Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs By Viscount Bryce (New York and London: G.P.Putnam’s Sons, for His Majesty’s Stationary Office, London, 1916). Note the year of the publication: 1916.  Bryce, a prominent British academic, jurist, historian, and politician, strongly condemned the Armenian genocide perpetrated by the Turks in 1915. Bryce was the first to speak on that subject in the House of Lords in July 1915 (note the date), and later–with the assistance of Arnold J. Toynbee–produced a documentary record of the massacres, published by the British government in 1916 as the Blue Book, one of the most objective and internationally acclaimed secondary source on the treatment of Armenian in the Ottoman empire and on the Armenian genocide of 1915.

    You dare to compare the Blue Book with a 2005 book Osman’s Dream, History of the Ottoman Empire 1300-1923 by Turkey-based author Caroline Finkel? For the record: Caroline Finkel has not received “almost unanimous praise” for her book. The only praise she has received was the 2006 “Woman of Distinction Award” from a group called “Daughters of Atatürk”, an annual title bestowed by this Turkish group on those who have “demonstrated vision, leadership, innovation and professionalism” in “giving their talents to the international Turkish community”, read: produced a Turkic-centric account. Smells rather fishy, doesn’t it?
     
    Re: “It is mistaken to see the whole Ottoman Armenian history through the lens of the events of 1915-16.” Two blunders in one sentence. The mistreatment of Armenians and other Christian groups in the Ottoman empire was not a single event, it was a process that resulted in their near-total physical extermination by the Turks. Turkophiles often conveniently forget that before, as you say, the “events” of 1915-1916 (incorrect: genocide of Armenians lasted from 1915 up until 1923 after the last pocket of Armenians in Smyrna has been annihilated in 1922), there were several instances that preceded the genocide, namely: the Hamidian massacres of 1894-96 and massacres of Adana of 1909. These massacres unmistakably show the pattern. Armenian genocide was not a single crime taken out of the context of the life of Armenians under the Turkish yoke, it was the culmination of centuries-long mistreatment by the Turks.

    I have an advantage as compared to Turkophiles. My grandfather whose family left a village in Sasoun after the Hamidian massacres for Ardahan, then a Russian province, use to describe in length what hard, miserable, and insecure life they lived in their village fearing Muslim bands’ pogroms and thefts. No Turkophile will ever convince me in the opposite, because in addition to many scholarly accounts on the subject, I have a survivor account, recorded and documented as such.
     
    If Turkophiles prefer to “live life as an Ottoman Armenian” it’s not late, I believe. Let them go a Western Armenian village, now inhabited by Kurds and Turks, declare that they’re Armenians and see what luxury and secure life they’ll be living there even today.

  372. Karekin,   would you like to explain to the readers as to why you keep stressing the CUP regime that perpetrated the genocide of Armenians (who otherwise “lived well under Ottoman rule”), while conveniently omitting  the Hamidian massacres and distorting the historical truth with phrase such as: “Even the sultans didn’t go berserk in such a genocidal way.” Do you know anything about the Hamidian massacres in which up to 300,000 Armenians were subjected to a genocidal extermination? Then, I guess, the question is not “What happened in 1915? Why did the CUP fall into genocidal insanity?” The question is “What happened earlier in 1894-96? Why did the Turkish Sultan Abdul Hamid II’s regime fall into genocidal insanity?”
     
    P.S.  Russian or Chinese serfs, living on their ancestral lands, were not made millets by some dominant ethnic group, were not subjected to pillages, murders, and abductions by a third ethnic/religious group, and were not in several instances methodically exterminated as a race by a third ethnic group. Huge difference in case someone doesn’t see the obvious.

    To Seervart:   Thanks for your addition. Of course, I know about the “Khanasor Expedition”.

  373. After a brief interlude, and softening of the targets, the  siren song of the alleged  golden age of Ottoman Empire returns. The allegations in this most recent post are no different than the previous ones. And said allegations were answered extensively and convincingly multiple times by multiple posters on multiple threads. One of the examples given was the intellectual and high-office achievements of Armenians in their relatively  short period  in the Russian Tsarist Empire, compared to Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
     
     
    The magnificence of  the  ancient Armenian city of Ani and the fact that it rivaled Constantinople in its day should be enough to disabuse  anyone who thinks Armenians needed Ottoman Turk overlords to achieve anything.
     
     
    Armenians did relatively well, such as it is, in the Ottoman Empire  not because of  it, but despite of it.
    We can’t rewind time, so we cannot definitively know what would have happened if Seljuk Turks had stayed in their original homeland, and Armenia and Armenians had had the luxury of uninterrupted  natural progression.
     
     
    But we can extrapolate. Turks had a run of the country without Armenians and other Christians since about 1920s.Turkey was known as the sick man of Europe for decades. Even with massive help from the wealthy West since Turkey joined NATO, it was mired in poverty and backwardness for decades.
    Even today, aside from the parts near Christian Europe, rest of it is stuck where it was decades ago. Large areas are not much better than medieval times.
     
     
    Any development and advancement that Turks naturally ascribe to themselves is thanks to their  close proximity to wealthy, advanced, benevolent Europe.
    Most of the modern industrial factories that produce industrial and consumer goods in Turkey were designed and built by Europeans, mostly Germans.
    Turks have unfettered access to the wealthy markets of Europe, and the rest of  wealthy West. Turks have unfettered access to the advanced technology of the West.
     
     
    When Armenia was part of the  Soviet Union, Armenian SSR was one of the most advanced and  prosperous of 15 republics, despite all 15 republics being treated more or less equally by the Soviet authorities. The education system was second to none.  The leaders, scientists, industrialists, artists, businessmen Armenia produced were way out of proportion to their share of the population of USSR.
     
     
    Even with the devastation of the massive earthquake with the loss of anywhere from 25,000 (official) to 50,000 (unofficial) population base, the devastating war for survival that consumed enormous human and materiel resources of the tiny republic, even with the transportation blockade, even with enormous resources being expended today to ward off invasion by Azeris, Armenia is doing remarkably well for its short 20 year life.
     
     
    Is there any doubt that if left alone, historic Armenia would not rival Europe in advancement and prosperity ?

  374. Ragnar Naess:    —-You state: “Armenians on the whole during the Ottoman centuries led a fairly good existence if you compare with other groups.”  Please enlighten as to what “other groups” led a worse life than Armenians during the Ottoman centuries? Humiliating millet regulations were roughly identical for all religious minorities: Greeks, Jews, Assyrians, and Armenians. So, what “other groups” lived worse than Armenians?  Curiously,  K

  375. Sireli hayrenagitses Gor,now I see where you got that dzour damar of yours.I am Sassountsi as well & from both sides.Our family history is quite similar to yours.The majority of my family(both sides)were massacred & some of the remnant survivors ended up in Russian Armenia where they still live on the slopes of mount Aragats & the other survivors ended up in Syria.
    In our Shgharshig village in Armenia our family still bury their dead overlooking towards our Yergir.

  376. Look, no argument about the Hamidian massacres…my family suffered under that as well. Of course, we know what caused him to go off the cliff, and it was nationalist activity and the sense that Armenians would go the down the same road as the Greeks. Yes, it was horrible and started the exodus from the empire in a big way…people got the message…however, by 1914, all the Armenian political parties were actually working with and negotiating with the CUP, to some degree. The CUP is brought up because they were the ones who decided to rid Turkey of its Armenians…completely. Yes, Abdul Hamid murdered several hundred thousand…no small thing, but it pales in comparison to the genocide. Think of the apparatus that was needed to carry out their plan?  This wasn’t some random, spur of the moment action…it was very well thought out and planned. As sinister as Abdul Hamid was, the CUP was evil to the core. That’s why I bring it up, and…many of their accomplices were rewarded during the republican period, right up to today. It is their legacy that still haunts Turkey and Armenians, not Abdul Hamid’s.  They changed Turkey for the worst…in a very big way.  

  377. Oh Avery jan.. EXCELLENT post.. EXCELLENT.. Your question “is there any doubt that if left alone, historic Armenia would nt rival Europe in advancement and prosperity? is absolutely right on the money.. because we ALL know (including the world’s notorious denialists like Murat, Anodolu, Necati, Monastras and a like who believe in their sick heads that Turks were send to this planet from God to be Armenians’ saviours) that the answer to your question is a HUGE YES

    This is why Turkey is running like a chicken with its head cut off trying to do EVERYTHING and ANYTHING (literally) to stop any recognition, any awareness, any advancement in exposing what happened and how Turkey got to be where she is now.. When one does not feel what they have was obtained by an honest way, when one feels threatened by simple truth, one allows the world to see the insecurity and fear in them.. and that is exactly what Turks are doing and it is getting more and more obvious.. they are afraid of losing whats NOT THEIRS… who would not right???

    Avery you are absolutely right.. if the Ottomans did not commit the Genocide (and thank you Gor for pointing out the pattern started not just in 1915 but from 1894-1909 until 1923) Armenia not only would have been as great and powerful as Europe but it would have turned Turkey’s existance to almost non-existance…

    and NO Monastras Khanum, not by killing off all the Turks as you suggested in one of your posts…where you said you FEEL we would do that if we had our lands back (such a dramatization on your part.. especially on your part..)  but with our intellect, wealth, position and everything else we possessed and would have multiplied 10 times over if we were left alone…PLUS Turks back then did not even have a country but their lonely mountains..

    So I say try your hardest to change history, or make up your own history, try to smir the names of all who were brutally murdered by your ancestors by belittling and lying through your teeth.. nothing will change the fact that Turks are hiding in their dark closets away from the truth…. Turks can’t provide facts, and examples what Turkey as a whole and on individual level contributed to society back in the days and now days even if…but guess what??? there ARE PLENTY OF facts and enourmous list showing the contirbutions of ARmenians around the world …nothing will change the fact that Turks were and are still guilty of Red Genocide and White Genocide..  So stop this cry me a river BS and get with the program because to be honest with you it is getting old.. hence, why the annoyance… but never the violence.. Armenians are not violent people.. even though you denialists would like to MAKE US as such.. but guess what??? ain’t going to work..  

    Peace…

    Gayane   

  378. Murat you said:

    Murat
    August 25, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Sometimes the most obvious and simple answer is the right one.  You have heard it a million times already.

    So why are you denialists keep repeating the same thing over and over.. You have heard the truth million times over already… the obvious and simple answer is the right one indeed… The Ottoman Turks Genocide of the Western and Eastern Armenians is the right answer…recognition, and repayment is another of them right answers..very simple.. 

      It is too bad that my ancestors are not here to speak for themselves…but i know they won’t rest and they will hunt those who belittle their existance and their death forever… and I for one will never stop speaking on behalf of them.. so keep on fighting the battle you will never win Murat and the rest of you denialists…  

  379. Karekin– Gor is not saying 1915 was less important than 1894-1896 or 1909.. He was pointing out that ALL massacres NEED TO BE MENTIONED to show progression, a pattern of these horrible Turkish tribes.. it was not JUST 1915…evil was their middle name no matter how small or big their job was.. period…

  380. Sassoun.. such a powerful word.. You sure can feel the strength and patriotism pouring out of it.. word.. it project mightiness, Godly…and that is how our warriors were… mernem yes irants janin….

  381. Then I believe things must be called by their correct names. The 1915 genocide of Armenians was not a sole episode in the ghastly history of Western Armenians, nor was the CUP regime the only Turkish regime that fell into genocidal insanity. A pattern of deliberate physical extermination of Armenians must be always made crystal clear, just as the ICTJ resolution did. One who sees the pattern and who’s aware of the insecure and miserable lives of most of the Ottoman Armenians (especially in rural areas) must think twice before making irresponsible statements, such as: “Armenians lived well under Ottoman rule” or “Armenians on the whole during the Ottoman centuries led a fairly good existence.”

  382. I sometimes feel that you are about to touch what the real problem was but you carry on talking  Hamidiye, CUP etc. The nationalism age started in the 17. century and gradualy engulfed the entire region. Turks never thought that we couldn’t think about this what a lovely idea. They fought every inches in the vast areas they lost. Armenians was no different. But they didn’t realize that they have a special position. They shared the same homeland. Obviously, Whoever run the management, whoever numerous and stronger kicked the other one out. If the same argument is still valid today, the same arguments will be repeated again and again

     

  383. Don’t dance around the issue writing in riddles so you can weasel out of it later. It’s B&W. Do you affirm or do you retract – with apology  – your post below:

    {Guest – Monastras 
    2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
    (posted @Hurriyet)

    Yes or No ?
     
     

  384. Monastras….you made no sense whats so ever.. please try to put your thoughts in a more coeherent manner so we know what you are talking about, what you are referring to.. ect.. throwing words just to throw words is not beneficial….. 

    in any case: this sentence written by you says:  “Obviously, Whoever run the management, whoever numerous and stronger kicked the other one out”….. you know that by this sentence ALONE you just admitted that your barbaric ancestors committed the Genocide toward the less numerous, less stronger in arms, and less powerful to manage the empire …..Greeks Assyrians and especially Armenians…thank you…

    But the truth of the matter is and a VERY VERY VERY  embarassing for you and all your denialists population is that your ancestors were cowards and low lives to murder almost an entire population by stripped them of everything before they did it….. they did not fight like real men.. they were chicken s*(*%(*$#(*$(#* for doing what they did…. having weakened the ARmenians to the extent where no men were kept alive, every weapon confiscated and women, children and elderly driven to the dessert with only their clothes on their back.. such cowardace act on your ancestors part….they knew very well that Armenians would have fought until the end…but they did not want to face them like real men against men…which is why they organized such a large compaigne to break down the Armenians before murdering, raping, mutilating, and burning them….. your coward ancestors did everything to disarm and disperse the ARmenian communities because that way it was easier to control and kill… if I was a Turk i would be embarassed… i would bury my face in shame knowing my blood line is attached to not only barbarians but coward barbarians…sad..  

    Gayane

  385. Avery jan– have you noticed that when you put their own words right back in their mouth and in front of their face, they come back with nothing… no reaction … it is like what we presented is not their own words… typical of them… not surprised…

    Monastras will continue to ignore the question because just like her own govt who for years continued to ignore the BIG FAT ELEPHANT in the room, the acknolwedgement of the Genocide, she would do the same.. not to fess up and stand behind her words..  

  386. Dear Gor, I am not surprised that you know about Khanasor Expedition as Armenians from our Motherland are usually very well read indeed and you certainly are a very good specimen of the intelligent and the well read individuals.  Of course several others in here as well make me much proud to be Armenian; bunch of well read and superbly intelligent people you are.  I am sorry for your family and VTiger’s family.  What Armenian doesn’t have similar heartbreaking stories after the Armenian Genocide?  We all do unfortunately.  Indeed before the Armenian Genocide my father told me that in Palu where he was brought up, they used to call “Meds Charte” for the Hamidian Massacres when the Red Sultan Abdul Hamid annihilated 300,000 Armenian civilians from 1894-1896.  As you and I know my dear that even much before 1894 the annihilations, the pillaging and the persecutions were constant and ongoing; that’s why our great writers and poets used to cry in their literature and wish to see the freedom of Armenia so that the people would start breathing air and not death nor live in sheer fright of dying every day of their lives.  Writers such as Raffi (Hagop Melik Hagopian) and Khatchadour Abovian in his “Verk Hayasdani”.   I would also like to remind or tell Karekin, that ever since the Seljuk Mongolian tribes came from the Mongolian steppes of the Altai mountains to our Westermn Armenian Highlands since the 1050’s, the pillaging, the murdering, the persecutions and the annihilations never stopped.  They were constant and ongoing against all the Armenian people in Western Armenia.

  387. That’s right Gayane.  Ms Monastas pretends that whatever I posted is not there.
    It’s OK. I don’t mind. I have infinite patience. A couple of other Denialists tried that to on me: didn’t work. (No  need to mention  any names, but you know who they are.)
     
    As long as my fingers can press a key on my keyboard, I’ll keep reminding
    Ms. Monastras. If I am away,  you will remind her, or one of  our other compatriots will.
     
    Best thing for her to do is make a stand right here @AW: either post “Yes, I wrote it and have no regrets”, or “Yes, I wrote it, but I regret it, I apologize”.
     

    We can then have a Reset: she can thereafter debate to her heart’s content with other Armenian or guest posters. She has stated she loves AW, so it should be an easy choice for her. (I am guessing she appreciates the excellent commenting platform AW provides, and not necessarily Armenian-centric articles).
     
    Otherwise – no deal: I’ll keep re-posting her @Hurriyet comment for all to see.

  388. Monastras, I have to admit that I have some trouble with your English above.  I think you are trying to say that Turks were also feeling the pangs of nationalism just as others of the time, and unfortunately for Armenians they wanted the same land that Armenians wanted; and since they were in charge, more numerous and had a stronger militia, the Turks won the battle for the land.  Is that what you meant?
     
    Perhaps, you and many Turks tell yourselves this as a way of suggesting that Armenians and Turks were mere combatants on opposite sides of a war.  Maybe it makes it easier to think that we were just having a  fair and square fight and the Armenians lost.   Maybe it makes it seem less awful than to acknowledge that the CUP/Turks systematically disarmed the Armenian men, separated them from the their families, forced them into work battalions (or worse) where most died, then ordered all the women, children and elderly to abandon their homes and to go on foot marches to the Syrian desert where they also perished.  Maybe you overlook the fact that innocent women and children, who were no threat to the Turks, (especially those from villages nowhere near the battlefronts), were cruelly starved, raped and murdered.  Maybe you look at these facts and feel proud of the shrewdness of those who won Anatolia for the Turks.  Maybe you concede that it is sad that the Armenians lost, but tell yourself that all is fair in war.  And besides, the Armenians gave the Turks no choice since some Armenians near the borders were siding with the enemy.  Armenians should just accept their defeat and move on.  Is this what you think?
     
    Well, if you do, you have much in common with genocide deniers who justify the inhuman acts organized and carried out by the CUP against the Armenian citizens of the Ottoman Empire.  But these were not acts of war.  They were acts carried out under the cover of war.  They were an extension of a long standing policy of suppression and aggression against Armenians who had begun to assert their right to self-determination and express demands to be treated equally under the law as the CUP had promised.  They were  acts of pan-turkic fanaticism.  And they were ultimately acts that would later be named ‘genocide’ by Raphael Lemkin and condemned by the nations of the world.
     
     
     

  389. gor
    No, the praise on the backside of Finkels book is much broader than a praise of turkophiles. And you go on talking about the situation of Armenians after the brakedown of the Kurdish amira system, which of course created problems in the traditional armenian lands and all over the area covered by the Kurds, whereas the theme was Armenian life in the Ottoman Empire more general. The brakedown of the Kurdisk system, due to centralization efforts on the part of the Ottoman government, created by the way problems for everybody except the powerful, rule of law diminished and the road was opened to the predators. But will you not say anything about the time before 1850 and about the situation of Armenians in cities before 1895? 

  390. Earlier by Gor
     Are you ready, Anadolu? Here I come. 

    “Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier
    some “Before Turks arrived, there was war as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian
    wars over Anatolia.”  — Those wars didn’t bring destruction at a scale remotely reminiscent to what nomadic Turks brought to the region. Also, at those times there was no such a
    toponym as Anatolia. This is a Turkish creation to indicate a part of Asia Minor and, especially, replace the Armenian Highland (or Plateau) where Armenians have lived for millennia with this cooked-up term.
    Gor
    What a nonsense, war’s bring always destruction. Radical anti Turks claim that nomadic Turks brought devastation. First of all the Seljuk’s were not nomadic, but a highly civilized and through Arabian and Persian culture mixed vast empire. After the Seljuk’s won the battle against the Byzantines in Manazkirt 1071. This defeat was not a military disaster for Byzantine but a political disaster with the capture of the emperor, his testimony by Doukas and civil war that follows. It is this civil war that squandered the financial and military resources of the empire, leaving Asia
    Minor defenseless against continual incursions of Turks. Here also a short story to the captured Greek emperor. When he was brought to Alparslan, he was asked what his fate would be and the Greek emperor replied as it’s custom, I might get killed or be imprisoned. But for his surprise he was set free and to be returned to Istanbul (Constantinople), after arriving in Costantinople the Greek emperor was at once killed. (either through a mob or through his political rivals). So please see some different history about the Turks, though its not pleasant for Turk haters. And further to your claim of Turkish devastation see also following historical facts.

    1022 : Basileios II annexed Armenian
    territories in the Byzantine Empire and 40.000 Armenians were deported to
    Anatolia. (Armenians being deported by Byzantines, I ask myself why?)

    1046: The Armenian sovereigns were killed by Byzantine
    Emperor Constantine IX. ( I guess it was because of the so called alien barbaric turks )

    1054: Seljukian Sultan Tugrul Bey gave the Armenians autonomy. (no can’t be
    true, it’s to barbaric)

    1098: The Armenians collaborated with the Crusaders (ok, never mind that’s
    normal due to same religion)

    1461: Sultan Mehmed the Conqueror invited Armenian Bishop Hovakim to
    Istanbul and he was honoured by the title of “Patriarch”. Later some privileges
    were given to the Armenians.(no, no please that’s just to barbaric )

    Stop you hatred against Turks.

  391. Anadolu, you have made some interesting points, but your final comment reveals a problem. 
    You are confusing anger and frustration with hatred.  I do not hate Turks and I teach my children not to hate Turks.  I know few Armenians who claim to hate Turks.  In my circle, most Armenians easily express the understanding that modern day Turks know only bits and pieces of the truth, some tainted by government propaganda.  We do not blame everyday Turks for the actions that eliminated the Armenians from over 80% of their homeland. 
     
    But ask us how it feels to know that our ancestors who once flourished in the Armenian Highlands were systematically and forceably deported, massacred and left to die in a desert or be scattered all around the world.  Ask us how it feels to know your ancestors were forced to abandon their homes, lands, crops, livestock, businesses, school and churches to Turkish and Kurdish looters and squatters.  And not just from a village or two, or even ten, but an entire homeland… Ask us how it feels that a population of over 3 million Armenians in 1914 now number only a fraction of that when natural growth patterns of the last century would have predicted multiple doublings by now.   Ask how it feels to have architectural marvels built by your ancestors, which are admired round the world, denied their proper names and designated as Turkish wonders for tourists to enjoy.   Your history is denied, your culture usurped, your identity trampled.
     
    Then ask yourself how it must feel to know all of this and then hear the government of Turkey deny it and to imprison, fine and even kill those who speak the truth.   How would you feel?
     

  392. “No, the praise on the backside of Finkel’s book is much broader than a praise of turkophiles.” Please support your argument, ragnar naess.  The only praise for Osman’s Dream, History of the Ottoman Empire 1300-1923 (whose author, Caroline Finkel, is actually based in Turkey) I was able to find was the 2006 “Woman of Distinction Award” from a group called “Daughters of Atatürk.” It’s a Turkish group not a group of Turkophiles. Turkish to the bones. I don’t know, for a common observer this fact alone would speak volumes as to why a Turkish group would praise a non-Turkish author.
     
    I said no word in any of my comments above about the situation of Armenians after the breakdown of the Kurdish amira system. Please refrain from ascribing something that was never said by an author.

    “But will you not say anything about the time before 1850 and about the situation of Armenians in cities before 1895?”   What exactly would you like me to say? Be precise, please. I guess you want me to say that if Armenians were not exterminated en masse before 1894 it means they might have “led a fairly good life”? Is this the amplitude that your intellectual abilities fit into? If Armenians were not exterminated en masse then they might have lived fairly well? Is this it? Shall I remind here about the humiliating rayah and millet serfdoms under which Christians and Jews lived after their colonization by Turks beginning the 15th century onwards?

  393. I admit that my comment seemed a little bit incoherent but I guess It has been understood by most people. Remember, we aren’t equal here.There are restrictions for us.So I am planning to code my posts in the future for this reason, however, I managed to express my opinion comprehensively in the past. over all, It is a good site to exchange various opinions.
    I am tempted to release all my poison about the ancient civilizations in the ME but It will attract   hundreds of more comments So I will refrain from doing it.

    Ask youself, Why Turks refuse to accept your charges even though, the genocide had nothing to do with the German public in Germany and Germans are not being seen uncivilized by the other nations. 

  394. I’ll start from the end, Anadolu, from your false accusation that I’m filled with hatred against Turks.  I don’t hate Turks. I believe my mental abilities allow me to differentiate between modern-day Turks and their Ottoman/CUP predecessors. You’re confusing righteous indignation for the genocide against a whole nation with hatred. Or you’re accusing Armenians of hatred deliberately in an attempt to open Armenians up to condemnation. Whatever your motives are, remember this once and for all: we don’t hate modern-day Turks. We may despise your denialist state and your distortionist governments, but not ordinary Turkish citizens. By the way, stating historical facts and calling things by their names, for instance, that Seljuks were originally nomadic tribes or that Ottoman Turks brought destruction to the vast geographic area up to the gates of Vienna, must not be taken as an expression of hate. In order to justify savage annihilation of unarmed men, women, children, and elders, modern Turkish government and scholars accuse all Armenians—defenseless, rural, unorganized, and even the unborn whom Turks ripped off the wombs of their mothers–with collaborating with the Russians, but we don’t take this as a demonstration of hatred. We take it as a result of methodical brainwashing so successfully achieved by your government propaganda and school textbooks.
     
    Let me now move on to your historical “facts”.
     
    First of all, re: “Seljuk’s were not nomadic, but a highly civilized and through Arabian and Persian culture mixed vast empire.” I don’t know what they teach you at schools, but in this age of the Internet and sophisticated communications technology it shouldn’t be so hard to conduct an independent research to know that the origins of the Seljuks were, in fact, nomadic. They roamed as nomads over a vast region, which today lies in the Altay mountains and Mongolian steppes. Prior to the 9th century AD, hordes of Turks had crossed the Volga River into the Black Sea steppes. Then, in the 9th century, they lived north of the Caspian and Aral seas, in the Kazakh steppe of Central Asia. In the 10th century, the Seljuks migrated from their ancestral homeland into mainland Persia, in the province of Khurasan, where they mixed with the local population and adopted the Persian culture and language in the following decades, since, as tent-living nomads, they had no culture of their own. It is an offense to the mainstream historiography to claim that Seljuks were “highly civilized” people. For your knowledge, “highly civilized” people leave traces in history, such as structures, writings, laws, artifacts, etc., as did the Sumerians, Egyptians, Indians, the Chinese, etc. What did the Seljuks leave behind them? Nothing. Only blood and destruction brought upon sedentary peoples. Seljuks started gaining remotely civilized traits only after intermingling with the Persians and Arabs and after stealing cultural achievements of these peoples, mostly in language, architecture, cuisine, social customs, etc.
     
    Wars always bring devastation, but for the civilized Western world the 1071 Battle of Manzikert, waged between the Byzantine Empire and Seljuk Turks led by Alp Arslan, was not just another war. It was a defense attempt against Seljuk intruders, whose homeland was nowhere near Asia Minor. The defeat of the Byzantine army and the capture of the Emperor Romanos IV Diogenes played a tragic role in undermining Byzantine authority in Asia Minor and Armenia that allowed alien Turks to gradually populate the region bringing destruction, population changes, religious conversions, and cultural thefts to the native peoples and, later on, paved the way for the emergence of Ottoman Turks that led to the  fall of the Christian capital of the world, Constantinople, and colonization of the indigenous peoples into millets. Therefore, you’re wrong in that the Battle of Manzikert “was not a military disaster for Byzantine.” Not only was it a military disaster, but it soon proved to be a grand disaster for the whole Western world. Thank you, at least, for admitting that there actually were “continual incursions of Turks.” I hope you’ll understand the major point of concern of indigenous peoples of Asia Minor: Turks never belonged in the region.
     
    Some of the historical facts that you brought are known, others are just rubbish. But all of them don’t essentially disprove that it were Seljuk and Ottoman Turks who, in fact, brought major grief and devastation to the natives of Asia Minor.
     
    That there occasionally were tensions between the Byzantines and Armenians (mostly around a religious interpretation issue) leading to plots, riots, and assassinations on both sides, we know. But we also know that several of the Byzantine Emperors were genuine ethnic Armenians; that the armies of the two states often cooperated in fending off invaders; and that the two ancient nations abundantly enriched each other’s culture.
     
    That the period of Seljuk invasions of Armenia was one of chaos, accompanied by widespread destruction of human life and property, we know. What we don’t seem to know is that a Seljuk invader Tughril Bey gave the Armenians autonomy(?!). In 1040 two Seljuk Oghuz brothers, Tughril Bey and Chagri Bey, conquered the Ghaznavid kingdom of Iran and established the Seljuk empire. In 1047, Tughril formed an army of 100,000 Turkmens from Persian Khurasan to invade Armenia. Thus from the mid-1040s to about 1063, detachments of Turks, controlled by Seljuk sultans, penetrated deeper into Armenia, destroying numerous cities and devastating entire districts. What we didn’t know is that, based on Turkish mentality, an army was formed by Tughril Bey not to invade Armenia, but to generously bring Armenians an autonomy. If Armenians were given autonomy by the Seljuk Turks in 1054, as you claim, why then ungrateful Armenians organized resistance to Seljuk invasions in Baiburt in 1054, Malatia and Colonea in 1057, and in Sebastia (Sivas) in 1059 before Tughril was succeeded by his nephew Alp Arslan who would then capture ancient Armenian city of Ani in 1064?

    That Alp Arslan set the Byzantine Emperor Romanos IV Diogenes free, we know. But we also know the motives for such an unusual Turkish “mercy.” After the Battle of Manzikert,  Arslan at first had difficulty believing the dusty and tattered warrior broughtbefore him was Emperor. He then stepped down from his seat and placed his foot on Romanos’ neck. After this sign of ritual Turkish humiliation, Arslan released him in exchange for a peace treaty and the promise of a hefty ransom of 10,000,000 nomismata.
     
    That Sultan Mehmed II brought Hovagim I from Bursa to Constantinople in 1461, we know. But in addition to this seemingly “generous” Turkish act we also know that after Constantinople fell to Ottoman Turks in 1453, the Armenian Patriarchate came to care more directly for all Orthodox Christians living in the Ottoman empire. Hovagim I was brought to Constantinople solely with a political purpose: Mehmed II wanted Armenian-Greek separation as Constantinople had become the center of their ecclesiastical and national life. As part of Mehmed’s ploy, he wanted the Armenian patriarch of Constantinople, and not the Catholicos of Mother Church Etchmiadzin, to be the Armenians’ most important national dignitary. Because the largest Armenian community in the world lived in Constantinople at the time, the civil-ecclesiastical authority of the Armenian patriarch would have made the Sultan practically the most powerful official among the Armenians at large.
     
    You know why you have such a linear viewpoint about Seljuk destruction and Ottoman colonization of native peoples of Asia Minor? Because you simply copy and paste distortions from Turkish Internet sites. No effort is made at doing your own research.
     
    Lastly, you seem to be offended by the word “barbarian” that some Armenians use when describing Turkish behavior. It is not directed at modern-day Turks. But the ghastly behavior of your Ottoman and Ittihadist predecessors towards non-Turk human beings is, without doubt, nothing less than barbarism. Visit the websites depicting the horrors of Turkish mass murders and humiliations of Greeks, Assyrians, and especially Armenians, and I hope you’ll understand what I mean.

  395. ragnar naess,   normally, we find praises on the backside of virtually any book, not just Frinkel’s. Their main goal being to make a profitable sale. However, praises on the backside of any book do not necessarily imply that the book has actually “received almost unanimous (emphasis mine) praise,” as you claim.

  396. For Gor and Ragnar, here are a couple of reviews of Finkel’s book, Osman’s Dream, which are easily obtained from the Amazon website and may be of interest to potential Armenian readers:
     
    “…While this book provides a rather quick paced narrative for a large span of history, its divergence from established historical fact regarding the Armenian Genocide is so blatant as to border on propaganda. While the author spends a short amount of time on the issue, admitting that “some” atrocity took place, her views completely run counter to a vast amount if well established research. Given the significance of mass murder and her attempts to belittle the issue, I cannot in good conscience recommend this book.”
     
    and this one:
     
    “…Eyebrows may be raised by her treatment of the Armenian genocide. She seems to say there may have been some atrocities but maybe not as extensive as alleged. But her explanation of what happened to the victims is very brief. Sure she covers over 500 years of history in 550 pages. But if she is going to write something long, she ought to go even longer, as the topic of a genocide is one that demands more explanation. “
     
    The book has received mixed reviews.  I plan to read Finkel’s book despite the mixed reviews.  I am sure I will learn something about the Ottoman period and perhaps I will also learn something more about the current blend of pseudo-objective Turkish Ottoman scholarship.   As an Armenian, I am aware of the need to be careful not to read books about the Ottoman period with too parochial an eye, but given Finkel’s close ties with Turkey I will also have my propaganda radar turned on. 

  397. Unfortunately, this discourse has become one of extremes with extremes. There’s no need for this. We are, like it or not, all Anatolians.  Armenians have lived under many political systems and configurations since time immemorial, but as an indigenous people with thousands of years of settle history in one place, they developed a multitude of skill sets that were used and appreciated by their conquerors. Let’s not forget – Armenian stonemasons designed and built every single Seljuk masterpiece known in Anatolia – most of which are magnificent. Armenians also gave the Ottoman Empire geniuses like Sinan, whose work is among the most beautiful in the world and the Balyans, who built palaces and mosques for the sultans.

    Armenians did this work because they had the depth of knowledge and the skill that comes from many centuries of experience, from well before the Urartian period right until the late 19th C. (As a comparison, think of the US….it would be like having a native American design and build the capitol building in Washington, DC. But, we know that could have never happened.)  In between, they built cities like Ani, which was on the silk road, and Dikranagert (Diyarbekir) and they prospered as a result.  Yes, they lived under a system that would not seem fair, moral or righteous today, but we must and should compare apples with apples, not with bananas. For most of history, Armenians were not a minority at all in Turkey, in fact, they outnumbered Turks. They did well because it was, in fact, their country…they were not living in a foreign land. They may not have been running the state or the army, but they were living on their own soil, and provided the practical intelligence that allowed society to function. All their rulers knew this and took advantage of it. 

    But, that’s all part of history.  Above all, if todays Turks want Armenians to respect them, they must also give respect to those who gave their lives to build their empire over many centuries. This is what’s missing.  They must acknowledge Armenian contributions, not hide them.  Whatever they have today is directly connected – not just to the theft and genocide that took place in 1915, but to what happened in 915, 615 and well before. Just a little bit of gratitude, and yes, an apology, for what was appropriated just 95 years ago, would go a very long way and would open the door to a more civilized discussion.  I believe that it is possible, but can only happen if people can pull back from their extreme positions and thus allow other avenues of thought to develop.

      

  398. Hi Karekin, I’ve found myself agreeing with a lot more of your comments recently, but I would like to ask you to be more specific regarding the ‘extremes’ you feel people are falling into.

  399. Anatolian?  Not if that means second class millet Turkt.  Yes, if that means indigenous inhabitant of Asia Minor and Armenian Plateau.

  400. Nope, we are not Anatolians. We are Armenian Highlanders- Armenians who have existed on Armenian Highlands for about 5,000 years. Seljuk Turks invaded from Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountains regions about 1,000 years ago.

    We are Armenian Highlanders. We are not Anatolians.

    Seljuk Turks are and their progeny are nothing like us. 

  401. Monastras, who are you kidding?  A little bit incoherent? 
    It looks like the work of two completely different Monastras.

  402. Monastras, I missed this earlier:
     
    “Ask youself, Why Turks refuse to accept your charges even though, the genocide had nothing to do with the German public in Germany and Germans are not being seen uncivilized by the other nations. “
     
    Again a bit hard to understand.  Are you asking why the German general public escapes being called uncivilized barbarians, but Turkish general public does not?
    First, no one thinks that the general Turkish public is barbarian.  There is no hatred toward an everyday Mehmet.  There is anger at the general Turkish ignorance and the government’s deliberate distortion and denial of the truth.  Germans admitted their guilt and paid reparation and regained there status among nations.  That is the simple difference.  Turks should stop feeling so insulted by the truth and take an honest look at history and the crime their nation has yet to come to terms with.  It really is that simple.  
    Thanks for the chance to say this again.  I am happy to repeat it every time a Turk suggests Armenians are “haters.”   How much more hateful is it to deport, massacre and murder innocent people just because they happen to share a certain nationality with some freedom fighters who are giving the government trouble?  The vast majority of Armenians were loyal Ottomans.  They had to be or risk their families safety.

  403. Avery jan you are hillarious.. I LOVED YOUR PAST COMMENT because I agree 100%..:)  Oh by the way Avery jan.. you bet your brillant self, I will remind Monastras.. Her brilliant blunder will never be forgotten and will always be reminded…

    Gor jan..JAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN….- xosq chunem… yes apshats em miaym… thank you…

    no denialist on these pages nor around the world can stand against your intellect and knowledge…. if  I was one of them denialists, i would feel sooooooooooo dumb and embarassed right now that i would not dare to open my stupid mouth again..lol. truly an excellent post… apres.. du im herosnes…  

    Boyajian jan– as always you are definintely a great writer… love your style..:)

    Anadolu Pasha- so how does it feel to know that what you try to throw up on these pages will NEVER be allowed… lies and distortion on our pages WILL NEVER be allowed…  

    Ragnar– give it up my man.. please do find yourself another hobby because obviously Armenian history is not working for ya… thank you.. have a great life…

    Monastras– i would suggest you talk with Robert (he is a Turk as well) who was as notoriously deniar as yoursel but recently relized (and I am very happy for him..truly appreciate it) that living in a lie and being cruel and continue denial is not a way to treat Armenians…. it is better to admit and move on.. Khanum jan….      

  404. ‘…Ask youself, Why Turks refuse to accept your charges even though, the genocide had nothing to do with the German public in Germany and Germans are not being seen uncivilized by the other nations. ‘

    WHAT ? Germans ? Turks ?  

  405. lol.. Avery .. i can’t stop laughing …that is what I felt when I read Monastras comment about Germans… Turks.. barbarians.. ect.. totally confused..lool

  406. How/why would Seljuk Turks, the newest arrivals be Anatolians?  We all know they originated elsewhere. The Armenian highlands are part of Anatolia/Asia Minor…..yes…but, I disagree wholeheartedly that the Seljuks had anything to do w/ Anatolia, except to conquer it and the people who were there originally.  If anything WE are the original Anatolians!

  407. Karekin, As Boyajian, I also agree with her that lately I am in agreement in most of your posts, excepting the one that you said that we were better off than most during 1500-1600’s in the Ottoman regime.  I directed my conversation to Gor but I also mentioned that we were in constant attacks by the Seljuk Ottoman Turks in the region.  Other than that I am in agreement with your past several posts.

    Gor, You certainly did your research about how and when both the Seljuk Turks and the Ottoman Turks stepped into our homeland.  Good for you Gor jan.

  408. My Ladies— i have to say I am a bit surprised about Karekin because I have gotten to know him on these pages for a while now… He sure is one of them people who you can’t figure out… because he is or should I say WAS(but could not hiding) more favorable toward Turks than his own then he would switch Amos (his style).. his preaching was always directed to us and his comments and yes many of them were absolutely harsh toward Armenians… we hardly ever heard him preach, accuse, and descipline Turks but he had plenty to say to us… so i would be cautious about him and would not get too comfortable with his comments because he can drop a bomb anytime… it has happened before..

    But that aside…I have to say.. i am happy to see Karekin is actually changing tides and sharing thoughts, and feelings that an Armenian who lost his or her family during Genocide would truly share, and expresses a bit of annoyance with the denialists… lets just see how long this will last.. i have faith in him….

    Sincerely,

    Gayane

  409. gor

    I agree that my words of “almost unanimous praise” was mistaken. On the back page of the paperback we find “The New York Sun”, Jason Goodwin in the “Literary Review” (UK) and Orhan Pamuk. on the first page (“Praise for Osman’s Dream”) we find praise from “Booklist – Starred review”, “Library journal”, “Kirkus Reviews”, Publisher’s weekly and “the Scotsman, William Dalrymple”. I find it particularly interesting that Pamuk and Dalrymple, that both have raised the issue of the Armenian genocide (even if they do not necessarily use the word), are among those who praise the book. The Armenian genocide is mention in the pages 533-536. The Amazon comments you have mentioned, Boyajian, are made by people whom we do not know the credentials of. That many will disagree with her treatment of the deportaitions and massacres of the  Armenians, particularly Armenians, is not surprising. But our theme was the general appraisal of the book. Apart from that out theme was THE SITUATION OF ARMENIANS ALSO AT EARLIER DATES THAN THE TIME OF CATASTROPHY. Honestly, gor, I feel that you have a strange reluctance to go into the earlier situation of Armenians compared with other at the time. So you must excuse me for still experiencing you as seeing the situation of Armenians too much through the lense of the Armenian Genocide  

  410. The word Anatolia is of Greek origin variously defined as “dawn” or “the start of day.”  In other words, the east. 

  411. “The Amazon comments you have mentioned, Boyajian, are made by people whom we do not know the credentials of.”

    Ragnar, credentials! Really? This site is full of ‘uncredentialed’ comments; just ordinary peoples’ opinions which generate much worthy discussion. We are fortunate to have such a diverse mix here. The comments from Amazon were just ‘opinions’ and I posted them here because I thought (as I wrote) that they would be of interest to Armenian readers. Loosen up a bit.

  412. Well, let’s get history straight….by the 15 – 1600’s, the Seljuks were gone as a ruling force and had been displaced by the Ottomans. The few Seljuks who had arrived most likely blended in (via marriage) with the native Armenians. This started the DNA mixing we know of today and explains why there are very few ‘pure’ Turks in Turkey. We should also remember that there is a huge gap between those known as ‘white’/European Turks and ‘black’/Anatolian Turks. The racism shown towards Armenians comes largely from the white Turk community, which was mostly imported from the Balkans and have no historical connection to Asia Minor. These people were all converts from the last 400 years, and most took refuge in Turkey only after WWI. Their sense of superiority overrides everything else and they have little respect for those who preceded them. This is a bit odd, considering that they are living in homes built by the original natives, but this divide is real and goes a long way in explaining the underlying roots of Turkish racism in the Turkish military and among the political elites.  

  413. I object to the use of Anatolian in reference to Western Armenians, because Turks and their Denialist cadres have been using the term ‘Anatolian’ to deliberately co-mingle the original inhabitants of Western Armenia and Eastern Byzantium with the progeny of Seljuk Turk invaders. Its purpose is to obfuscate their origins over time and convince the world they have been there all along: original, native inhabitants of the lands, and not invaders who stole those lands form the true original, native, sedentary, peaceful inhabitants and builders of those lands – after exterminating them en masse.
     
    I am aware of  the historic Greek origins of the word ‘Anatolia’. However, it has acquired a sinister tone and purpose in modern use.
     
    I will continue using ‘Armenian Highlands’, ‘Armenian Plateau’, ‘Eastern Byzantium’, ‘Greek Byzantium’, ‘Asia Minor’ – to keep to reminding Turks and their Denialist cadres of who was there first and who invaded and exterminated the original inhabitants.  And I will continue objecting to the term ‘Anatolian’  when referring to Armenians.
     
    The Denialist posting under the name ‘Anadolu’ should disabuse anyone of what the term implies in current usage for Turks.
     
    We are not Anatolians: we are Armenian Highlanders – Armenians from the Armenian Highlands, the Armenian Plateau.
    We are not Anatolians.

  414. Ragnar, the comment by Orhan Pamuk on the back of Finkel’s book is one short sentence:
     
    “Caroline Finkel effortlessly conveys the high drama of Ottoman history.”
     
    Nice words of praise, but I can’t help wondering what else this man of letters might have said that did not make the back of the book.

  415. Well, we can agree to disagree, but…true Turks have no real claim or right to anything Anatolian, including the moniker, except, as I said, by conquest. Even by applying the Greek term for a piece of geography is very revealing.  There are plenty of honestly Turkish parts of the world on the other side of the Caspian, but Anatolia, the Armenian plateau or Asia Minor are not part of that grouping. Denialists might want to use the term, but by what right?  It doesn’t belong to them anymore than Ararat does. 

  416. ragnar naess,   I think to diminish the importance of Arnold Toynbee and Viscount Bryce’s Blue Book, an internationally acclaimed account on the treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman empire until and in the year 1915, published in 1916, i.e. when the genocide was still ongoing (a secondary source that’s often is considered primary given the year of publication) with an 2005 account of a Turkey-stationed author Finkel who was presented with an award by ‘Daughters of Atatürk’ is, to me, an affront to the mainstream historiography.

    karekin,   parts of the area at all times in ancient history until the invasion of Seljuks and colonization by Ottoman Turks was known as Asia Minor, Eastern Byzantium, Eastern Asia Minor, Armenian Highlands, Armenian Plateau. ‘Anatolia’ is a deliberately cooked-up toponym in an attempt to erase these ancient names of the area where the Byzantine Greeks, Assyrians, Kurds, and Armenians lived. It is unacceptable to say that Armenians are ‘Anatolians’. We have lived in the area for so long that historically the plateau was named after us: the Armenian Plateau. Avery is absolutely right: we are Armenian Highlanders.

    P.S. VTiger, I’m glad to have a descendent of a Sasountsi on these pages. The spirit of Sassoun/Moush Armenians is known to be unbreakable.

  417. Gor…yes, to us the eastern end of Anatolia is, in fact, the Armenian plateau, but let me ask….when is the last time you looked at a map?  I’ve not seen ‘Armenian plateau’ on any map of recent vintage. Moreover, since the term came from the ancient Greeks – easily thousands of years before the Turks arrived…and includes everything east of Istanbul, what is your beef? If anyone should be upset that they appropriated the term, it should be the Greeks, not us, not you.

  418. gor

    I am not diminishing the value of the “Blue Book”, on the contrary I have used some 50 hours reading it in detail and making notes quite recently. The 150+ letters and notes, mainly provided by bystanders, are obviously a very important material of documentation. As ICTJ says the most reasonable conclusion is that there were perpetrators around who targeted and killed Armenians “as such”. But the introduction and the history of Armenians appended is something else. To my mind these texts are much more marked by the propaganda purposes of  the British government. They amount to a demonization of Turks and the Ottoman Empire. Further, the texts have very little relevance for solution of the question of the role of the central CUP cadres. Some of those who testify have opinions on this, but needless to say the value of the documents, as Ara Sarafian says, lies in the eyewitness testimonies. But the reading of what went on is terrible and points to the responsibility of the government at the time.

  419. Gayane

    thank you for your remark that is it easy to go along with what Turkish spokesmen say when one sits at their table and drink their wine. I was recently in Istanbul and Ankara and spoke with Turkish historians, NGOs and officials, and I thought about your remark several times. The flesh is weak as I believe is said in the Bible, so thank you 

  420. ragnar naess,   devaluation of the Blue Book is the sense I got from this passage of yours: “Bryce is hardly ever referred to in the historical literature, except for the fact that he worked with Arnold Toynbee in publishing the documents on the deportations and massacres in 1915-16. But if one reads the last comprehensive history of the Ottoman empire, that of Caroline Finkel, which has received almost unanimous praise, I believe my characterization [‘Armenians led a fairly good life during the Ottoman centuries’] is correct, especially if you heed my qualification compared to others at the time[…].”
     
    Now you’re saying that the “150+ letters and notes, mainly provided by bystanders, are obviously a very important material of documentation” in the Blue Book and that you “used some 50 hours reading it in detail and making notes quite recently.”  You are certainly inconsistent. If the account is “hardly ever referred to in the historical literature”, then why you now think it is “obviously a very important material of documentation”? If you think Finkel’s account has received “almost unanimous praise”, why have you “used some 50 hours reading [the Blue Book] in detail and making notes quite recently”?
     
    Also, the Blue Book does not refer solely to the deportations and massacres of Armenians in 1915-16; it deals in great length with the history of Armenians and their treatment in the Ottoman centuries. To your mind, the texts are marked by the propaganda purposes of the British government. To our mind, the texts are marked by an honest attempt to depict the treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman empire. The undeniable historical fact that Armenians, as well as other Christians and Jews, were treated by the Turks as rayah and second-class millets, is not “a demonization of Turks and the Ottoman empire.” It is a reiteration of the sad actuality that existed throughout those centuries when non-Turks and non-Muslims were generally treated inadequately as compared to the dominant group: voiceless, un- or underrepresented, lacking basic civil rights, physically unsecured, legally unprotected, and oppressed.
     
    karekin,    I can speak for Armenians, not Greeks. The map of recent vintage were revised by the Turks: historical names changed, geographical toponyms changed, anthropological and demographic facts distorted. What do you expect to see on the current maps? But if we parrot the Turkish bosh that the easternmost part of ‘Anatolia’ is ‘Eastern Anatolia’ and not the Armenian Plateau, then it will become Eastern Anatolia, and the original name will be forgotten. Exactly what Turks desire. That’s my beef. Also, the recorded history of the mankind is not determined by the “current maps.” Our existence is not limited by the current day alone nor by the emergence of invading Seljuk Turks in the 11th century AD. Our existence is a continuum. If you look at the first map of the world Imago Mundi, dated to the 6th century BC, you’ll find Urartu. If you look at the Eratosthenes map (276-194 BC), Posidonius map (c. 150-130 BC), Pomponius Mela map (c. 43 AD), and Ptolemy map (c. 150 AD), you will find ‘Armenia’, not some ‘Anatolia’.

  421. Part2 (re ‘Anatolia’)
    When Turks deliberately use the term Mount Ağrı’ (sic)  referring to Mount Ararat, while everybody else in the world calls it Mount Ararat.
    When the Turkish Airlines ad running in the Los Angeles county area refers to quote “thousands of years of Turkish culture “ (say what ?).
    When every original toponym in the occupied Armenian and Greek lands has been and is being Turkified.
    When Artsakh’s historic Armenian names were completely Turkified.
    When Turkish Culture and Tourism Ministry Hakan Doganay, says “Urartians, Seljuks and Ottomans lived in Ani,” (deliberately) forgetting (omitting) to mention that Ani is an Armenian city and was a capital of Armenia in the 10th century.
     (“Turkish official denies Armenian origin of Ani” http://news.am/eng/news/70987.html )
     
     
    Then that’s the beef  everyone of us should have and constantly and relentlessly counter.
    Every little ‘innocent’ remark, ‘slip’, ‘mistake’, ‘omission’ is part of the deliberate, calculated campaign to erase any traces of Armenians from our ancestral lands.
     
     
    Given all that, I see no reason to assist Turks in their campaign of White Genocide, after their  (almost completely) successful Red Genocide.
     
    In fact  I will henceforth start referring to the historic toponyms in the occupied lands by their original names, as in Constantinople  (aka Istanbul); Smyrna  (aka Izmir)…..they sound more civilized and noble anyway. If Turks can  call Mount Ararat by the corrupted insulting name of Mount Ağrı’ (sic), then I see no reason not to refer to Constantinople by its original, historic,  beautiful name.

     

  422. please, gor, read what I wrote again. The material is important, the preface/introduction and the historical sketch is not, to my mind

  423. the insulting and false statement   ‘The few Seljuks who had arrived most likely blended in (via marriage) with the native Armenians.’ has been noticed and noted  Karekin. 

    You made a similar claim in another thread a while back. 
    At that time I provided a reference to a source – an expert on Seljuk Turk migrations – which showed that there were in fact several million Seljuk Turks who migrated to the Armenian Highlands behind the  vanguard of the Seljuk Turk shock troops.

    I will re-post the reference at a later time. 

  424. Gor
    Did Armenians evolved from ape to human being in eastern Turkey?
    Were the first man and woman on earth Armenian? 
    Thank you for your answers in advance 

  425. please, ragnar naess,   why is it that a contemporary historical sketch that shows Turks’ true colors is, to your mind, less important than a newly-published account for which a Turkey-stationed author has, to your mind, received ‘almost unanimous praise’? Might it be that the reason lies not in an account, but in your general favoritism and preferential treatment of the Turks? Unto-thyself-type honest…

  426. John (if this Christian name is your real name at all),   it’s been a long time already that the theory of evolving from ape to human being has no validity, in case you missed this. Your sarcasm is so primordial. What science does know, however, is that some peoples are autochthonous (indigenous), others are originally alien. Although several theories on the origin of Armenians exist, many scholars come to agree that the Armenian Plateau, in fact, might have been their original birthplace. At the time Armenians had originated there was no such a toponym as ‘eastern Turkey’ because Turkey on the whole had emerged only in 1923, for your knowledge. Also, in case you missed it in the history class (if you’ve ever taken one at all), first man on Earth had, obviously, no ethnicity, but some peoples had originated and formed into nations much earlier than others, for instance, Turks who popped up on the maps only around 10th century AD. Thank you for educating yourself in advance.

  427. when we read the posts, you clearly understand that the real problem isn’t the genocide. It is about so called stolen land

  428. The so called ‘so called’  stolen lands were in fact definitely, unambiguously, factually stolen. Even Turks themselves boast of their origins in the mythical Turan/Turania around Altai Mountains (another theft by Turks: Turanian is an Iranian word). Turks glowingly boast of their martial prowess re the Battle of Manzikert. Why was there a battle there ? Was it because Byzantium  was attempting to invade the homeland of Seljuk Turks ?
     
     
    Even Turks can’t change the massive historical record of Seljuk Turks having travelled thousands of miles, and having invaded the Armenian Highlands from the region of Mongolian Steppes and Altai Mountains.
     
     
    Star Trek Transporter was not invented at the time, so they must have travelled by land – massacring anyone  who stood in their way.
     
     
    Is there a record of Seljuk Turks having purchased the lands of indigenous inhabitants in a voluntary value-for-value transaction ?
    Was Armenian  real estate exchanged for something valuable ? Massive herds of cattle, horses ? Silver ? Gold ? What ?
    On the other hand there are copious records of Seljuk Turks having taken those lands by fire and sword – that’s why it’s called theft, or ‘stolen’.

  429. John (is that your real name or you are hiding your Turkishness behind a Christian name as Gor stated?  It is just absolutely ridiculeous to use a name that does not belong to you..but then again what does to a Turk right??? 

    You said

     when we read the posts, you clearly understand that the real problem isn’t the genocide. It is about so called stolen land

    HUHHHHHHHHHHHh?????

  430. Karekin– here is a link that may be helpful to you .. it shares the maps and Armenia in relation to each map…….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKjl9lLlisA

    And to all you denialists and Turkophiles… please pay attention to the LAST segment of the clip… but then again, why don’t I include it here.. just in case you miss it…

    ARMENIA:
    A Land that has been torn between the East and the West
    Trampled by all of the fiercest empires in history
    Victim to the most autrocious persecutions
    And yet,
    It has stood the test of time
    From the oldest maps to the latest
    Armenia still exists…..and will exist (emphasis mine)….

    Gayane

  431. Gor jan- you basically said what we have discovered about Ragnar a long long long long long time ago… you are absolutely right in stating the following:

    Might it be that the reason lies not in an account, but in your general favoritism and preferential treatment of the Turks? 

    No question about it my friend.. no question about it.. Ragnar is just that.. he has not fessed up about that but he sure shows through his writing..

  432. Compared to the demonization of Turks which I see in the writ of some Armenians on these pages, my critical solidarity with both parties certainly must appear as general favouritism and preferential treatment of Turks

  433. Gayane…thank you for the video…it was excellent. Of course, it’s ridiculous for Turkey to continue to ignore the facts of the historical record that Armenians originated and lived in the eastern half of their current territory for many thousands of years…probably since well into pre-history. As you probably know, some of the oldest human remains have been found in what is now Georgia…just north of the current Armenian border….it is 1.5 million years old. To get there, they clearly came up from the south, meaning they spent time in Armenia. And yes, the political overlay also has a story to tell.  Across history, as you can see from the maps, borders change, populations change, kingdoms…and unfortunately, sadly, once you’ve lost political control of territory, it is very hard to maintain nomenclature. I wish more than anything that Armenians could have hung on in their historical lands west of the Arax, but at this point and as a historian, I can only observe the path of history in an objective way. If your love is truly for the land of Sepastia, or Mush or Van, then you love it no matter what kind of political overlay there might be at any point in history.  It doesn’t mean you like those governments or rulers, but at the same time, don’t turn your back on historical Armenia…and do your best to maintain the one we have now. Wishing and wanting something you can’t have only leads to frustration and stress. Ask any 5 year old.

      

       

  434. Ragnar, it depends on what you have solidarity for.  If your solidarity is with truth and fairness for both sides, I’m sure no one can fault you for this.  But your apparent solidarity with those Turks (not all) and others (McCarthy, etal) who distort the truth, denigrate the Armenians, and deny them justice, casts a shadow on you.  You can see this, can’t you? 
     
    You attack known, established, contemporaneous eye-witness accounts in support of what?    You support modern-day, manufactured versions, skewed toward a Turkish revisionist viewpoint, because…?
    Your goal is a book, not justice, and this puts you at odds with many here.   This is not a personal attack against you, but what you do is a personal slap against the children of the victims.

  435. ‘Compared to the demonization of Turks which I see in the writ of some Armenians on these pages’
     
     
    The correct term should be demonization of Anti-Armenian Denialist Turks: there is no demonization of ordinary Turks on these pages.
     
     
    And compared  to  someone who referred to Armenian posters here as ‘inbreds’ ,  and who has referred to our murdered, tortured, mutilated ancestors, which included children and babies (born & unborn) in terms reserved for garbage – ‘disposed of’ –  the civility maintained by Armenian writers here, many of whom have blood relatives that were exterminated by Turks, many of whom having heard first-hand eyewitness accounts of the massacres from their own blood relatives – is astonishing, and quite becoming of the high culture passed down to us from our highly civilized and majestic ancestors. 

  436. John,the real problem is the Genocide & as well the stolen lost lands which is much worse, as we’ve been uprooted from our natural habitat of thousand of years & thrown away to the different corners of the earth.With this kind of living we’ve come to understand what we’re missing & that is our HOME.The spirit of the massacred continues on living in us until the day of justice & our return back to our lands.

  437. “when we read the posts, you clearly understand that the real problem isn’t the genocide. It is about so called stolen land”


    No John.  Be careful not to allow yourself to be misled by one particular thread of comments.  Any particular thread will tend  to have its own particular focus, while another will follow another related theme.   It’s like conversation.  And sometimes it’s just the theme of the day.
     
    The current ‘conversation’ between Turks and Armenians will always be about both these issues, and then some (churches, Artsakh, Nakhichevan, Treaty of Sevres, etc,.)  The genocide and stolen land and property are inextricably bound togetherI know most Turks are less nervous at the idea of admitting to genocide than they are about Armenians wanting to reclaim land.   But you can’t really talk about genocide without the question of theft and murder coming up.  And you can’t talk about theft and murder without the question of punishment and compensation coming up.  It is by nature a very complex problem, created by the Turks themselves, and it is high time that Turkey deals with it.   The modern Turkish republic has a debt to pay.  

  438. Boyajian

    I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious. 

  439. Yes indeed..ypu are absolutely correct Boyajian jan in stating.. The Modern Turkish republic has a debt to pay..

    Turkey…..Enough of hiding behind the mightly dollar which by the way was stolen from my ancestors… one day the true ugly face will finally emerge and the rosey colored glasses will break once and for all…. 

  440. Well said Avery jan

    You welcome Boyajian jan…

    VTiger jan-well said… but we know John is confusd as any of his denialists buddies..he does not know what he is talking about.. complete mess..  

    Ragnar—- you should not talk mister…absolutely should not talk about  

    Compared to the demonization of Turks which I see in the writ of some Armenians on these pages, my critical solidarity with both parties certainly must appear as general favouritism and preferential treatment of Turks

    But you DO show favouritism and preferential treatment of Turks… Do you want me to compile everything that supports my statement?? I can absolutely do it even if it takes me two days to do so.. I did the same thing to show how messed up Robert The Turk is.. so please stop this BS that we demonize the Turks (again. for the GAZILLIONTH, TRILLIONTH, times.. we do not demonize or hate ordinary Turks..it is toward the denialists Turks and the Turkish govt)  and you show no favouritism…

    Boyajian hit the nail with the hammer about your intentions here:   Your goal is a book, not justice, and this puts you at odds with many here.. 

    Gayane
       

  441. John- you said..

    I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious

    You mean Turkish govt has a claim that is very serious?????

    do you mind sharing what their claim is??? I am curious to know.. IF their claim is Armenians did this or Armenians sided with the enemy, Armenians took arms and rebelled against Ottoman Empire.. if Genocide was not Genocide but casualties of the war.. I AM NOT INTERESTED… what other claims would they have besides those???  I am curious to know…

    Please share..

    Thank you

    Gayane      

  442. What’s their ‘very serious’ claim, John?  Enlighten us, and let’s look into it point by point jointly, if you will, unless you believe, of course, that Turks evolved from apes to humans in eastern Turkey and that the first human on earth was Turk.
     
    Re: interest.  A disinterested government would not finance lobbying groups worldwide, bribe scholars to produce Turkic-centric dubious accounts, and disseminate cheap, unsubstantiated propaganda.

  443. John- of course they should be interested… because the possible claims I provided to you are just another dirty game Turkish govt is playing to create doubt, create illusion of false history…it is better if they start recognizing the claims we brought forth sooner or later….. because the more Turkey tries to hide the more they are called out.. .

      YOU obviously think they have CLAIMS and SERIOUS CLAIMS.. so why don’t you share it with us and as Gor stated we can go point by point.. 

      We know Turkish govt very well and what they claim is nonsense as I stated in my last post.. they are lies to stir everyone away from the real truth; which holds no ground in the realm of what THEIR ancestor did to my ancestors.  So just cut this BS of serious claims John.

    Come to the table with some examples sir but if you do not, I would suggest to keep your posts to yourself….because then those posts turn into just empty nonsense bunch of words….

    Go ahead sir.. we are all ears…

    Gayane    

  444.  Avery,
    about demonization: On august 25 you said: Armenians did relatively well, such
    as it is, in the Ottoman Empire not because of
    it, but despite of it. Compare what
    Walker says: “The millet system has sometimes been praised as a model of just
    administration, sometimes criticized for being opportunistic. Certainly, as a
    method for administration of conquered people, it was morally ahead of anything
    to come out of Europe at the time or for some time after” (“Armenia, the
    survival of a nation”. Routledge 1980, page 87). These are no small words by an
    author who generally is not favourable to neither Turks nor Turkish government.
    If you go to the ordinary, truth seeking Turk and say: “I respect you
    personally but all your governments have only created havoc and massacred
    people since you came from Central Asia”, see how far you get in your efforts
    to convince him. Will he believe that you respect Turks? Not if you utter
    vilifications which also are completely out of line with what historical research says. Then
    on august 25 you say: “well said Seervart: Turks definitely want to take control of Europe”. This is fantastic, more in line with the sick ideas of the killer we witnessed in Norway on july 22, than with
    any responsible attitude and objective appraisal of Turkey and the European Union. And you also praised Seervard even if he forgot to say “the Turkish government”, but just “Turks”. But let us
    return to the Ottoman Empire.To take the Balkans, Peter Sugar, who wrote a
    history which has been reprinted as a textbook for the University of Washington
    and many other places, being one of the standard book of the history of the
    Ottoman Balkans for more than 20 years. Peter Sugar says: “The rights of
    landlords were strictly regulated in the Ottoman empire and therefore this
    change of overlords usually pleased the peasantry…..this principle safeguarded
    the lowly on the social scale so long as the system worked properly. And made
    ottoman rule preferable to that of unprincipal nobles to the Balkan peasants”.(p.19)
    , and: While the muslim was obviously superior to the non-muslim by definition,
    in practice during the early centuries of the empire people of different creeds
    were often treated almost as equals, in accordance with their profession…….later
    the religious difference became crucial (p.31).Sugar, Peter
    (1977/1966): Southeastern Europe under Ottoman Rule, 1354-1804. A history of
    East Central Europe. University of Washington Press. Seattle and London. – Now, this was the Balkans and not Eastern Anatolia or the Armenian highlands. But it characterises the Ottoman Empire at its best. I cannot see that vilifying the  Ottoman Empire helps Armenians in their fight for their just cause

  445. Karekin, you write: “The question is….what happened in 1915?  Why did the CUP fall into genocidal insanity?  Why did they turn against their most productive and loyal citizens?  This is the real question. Even the sultans didn’t go beserk in such a genocidal way, because they were smart enough not to kill off the geese who gave the empire many golden eggs and much wealth, civilization and sophistication. But, the goons of the CUP did…tell us, why?”. Comment: I am not in the position to give a comprehensive answer, but the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans. And when one added nationalism, the  combined threat of the powers and the aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population plus the experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made them attack Armenians, even those who were not active politically, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns. There was undoubtedly an element of paranoia in this, which shows itself in the fury unleached on completely innocent people. But if you ask for an explanation of a horrible  policy which targeted Armenians as such, I would look at these factors. It is not unexplainable, but certainly inexcusable.

  446. Robert Melson’s book, Revolution & Genocide, paints a very clear,  unbiased picture of the CUP’s insanity…and while paranoia might have played a part, the cost of war, loss of territory and the idea that outright theft would solve their problems are probably more essential. I don’t believe the genocide had a religious basis, though the CUP goons certainly used religion as a helpful cudgel, much as it’s being used in the US today to wage wars around the world. I think it was, at its core, economic.  Just like Hitler, and in anticipation of him, they were power hungry and thought they were invincible.  As many of us have seen play out in US courts, and then upheld in courts around the world, according to most common law practice, stolen property can be restored to its proper owners (or their descendants) even long after they are are gone.  I think Erdogan’s intent to return confiscated properties is something of a start, but does not go far enough and is not nearly historically inclusive enough. At the least, it should be retroactive to 1923, or even earlier, to 1915, if he really wants to make amends that actually begin to address minority concerns. 

    And by the way, as I see it, the sultans were synonymous with imperialism….they and their armies are what expanded the empire over the centuries. They can’t be separated.   

  447. What a nonsense is your comment, rangar naess:    “[…]the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans. And when one added nationalism, the combined threat of the powers and the aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population plus the experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made [Turks] attack Armenians, even those who were not active politically, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns.”
     
    In terms of experiences of targeted massacres, for Armenians the times of imperialism were not essentially different from the times of the Sultans in that Armenians have seen mass murders during the Ittihadists as have they seen mass murders earlier, during the reign of Sultan Abdulhamid II.
     
    Turkish nationalism began with the Turanian Society founded in 1839 (note the year), followed in 1908 with the Turkish Society, which later expanded into the Turkish Hearth and eventually expanded to include ideologies such as pan-Turanism and pan-Turkism. In 1839, Ottoman Armenians were still considered millet-i-sadika (loyal millet).
     
    Combined threat of the powers to the Ottoman empire was dealt not only by the ethnic Turks. Tens of thousands of Ottoman Armenians fought bravely at the fronts defending the empire.
     
    Aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population were not a uniquely Armenian phenomenon. All the colonized peoples of the empire stood up for their self-determination rights, including the Turks’ fellow Muslims, Arabs. However, only Armenians were deliberately exterminated as a race.
     
    The experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 occurred because Turks waged wars in those years in which atrocities occur to all warring parties and their civil population. Ethnic Turks represented a warring party. Hence, they suffered atrocities. Conversely, Armenians were not a party to any war, nor were the majority of their provinces anywhere near the frontlines. Regardless the fact, they were subjected to genocidal extermination.
     
    [All the above] “created a siege mentality that made [Turks] attack Armenians.” There’s hardly any evidence of the Armenians’ involvement, except for aspirations for independence of a few Armenian revolutionaries that could have created “a siege mentality that made Turks attack Armenians”. Armenians did not figure in any of the delirious arguments (except for their revolutionaries’ independence aspirations) that could have invited the Turks’ ‘siege mentality’ to them. Only sick mentality could have made Turks attack Armenians who were by any measure the reason of their woes.
     
    As for “[…]attack Armenians, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns”, one may be chagrined as to how a human rights defender can so primitively explain the savage extermination of innocent people whose only desire was to live peacefully and securely on their lands, and who didn’t even realize that they had “rights in the eyes of the powers”.

  448. The whole “treatment of Armenians” in the Ottoman Empire brings up an interesting topic.

    Take for instance the treatment of Jews in both the Russian Empire and compare it the situation of Jews in German/ Austro-Hungarian domains prior to WWI.

    In Russia, the Jews lived under many restrictions, forced to live in the Pale of Settlement, not allowed to own land, subject to random pogroms, openly reviled by non-Jews, taxed almost into oblivion, etc. Russian society was especially backward at this time and Jews were particularly vulnerable.

    In German/ Austro-Hungarian territories (there was no unified Germany until after the Franco-Prussian War), Jews accumulated great wealth (perhaps the wealthiest segment in German society), served in high positions in the military and government, were allowed to flourish and made great advancements to modern science, commerce, etc. In contrast to Russia, these lands were increasingly cosmopolitan and progressive.

    Now which society committed the holocaust?

    What is my point?  When the chips are down, the hard-working minority with wealth will be slaughtered, will be scapegoated for the failures and defeats of the majority (often reviled and blamed problems the majority actually created for themselves). The majority will focus their negative energies not on the government but on the vulnerable minority that seemingly live carefree lives. The minority will be demonized, they will be subject to abuse, they will be robbed, and for having the audacity to defend themselves from such abuses, will be branded traitors.

    This happened in the Ottoman Empire/Turkey before and during WWI and Germany after WWI and during WWII

  449. Ragnar. Don’t bother filling endless paragraphs with endless quotes from an endless list of authors: I couldn’t care less.
     
    I don’t engage in high-brow discourse with people who call Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’  and refer to our exterminated ancestors using terms reserved for garbage – ‘disposed of’.  People who pretend to be fair and balanced, but who invariably slip, like you did, and show their true colors and attitude for Armenians get no quarter from me. You hate Armenians with a passion. My job is to shout-down people like you. Every time you want to say something to me, you’ll get the same treatment and response.
     
     
    As to my praise for  Seervart: not only I stand by what I wrote to her, but I will proudly reaffirm it here: “well said Seervart: Turks definitely want to take control of Europe”.  How do I know this to be true ?
     
    Here: [“Erdogan urges German Turks not to integrate”
    “At the meeting last month, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan urged Turks living in foreign countries to take out citizenship of the new homelands – not to integrate, but rather to become more politically active, according to the website of news magazine Der Spiegel.”]  http://www.thelocal.de/society/20100317-25933.html  (17 Mar 10 14:49 CET)
     
     
    Not to integrate, but rather become more politically active: I call that taking over. Case closed.

  450. “[…]vilifications which also are completely out of line with what historical research says [re: orgins of Turks in Central Asia].”    ragnar naess, since you clearly are under the delusion that only your ‘historical research’ is refined, do please lay out your ratiocinations as to where else the Turks might have come from, how they appeared in Asia Minor, and what happened to the indigenous peoples inhabiting the area for millennia after the Turks’ invasions?

  451. John, writes:

    “Boyajian, I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious.”


    What is this claim, John?  What claim could Turkey have that takes precedence over Turkey paying a debt for the death of nearly 2 million people and the elimination of an indigenous people from its homeland? 
     
    This is a game that Turkey plays to avoid facing their guilt:  pretending that they had a proper justification for the criminal acts against their Christian minorities.   It will be a dark day for mankind when a government can claim ‘justification’ for such crimes against its own citizens.

  452. ragnar naess,   I’d like to address your citation from Christopher Walker’s Armenia: The Survival of a Nation  (Avery,  I hope you don’t mind, since the comment was addressed to you).
     
    On page 87 Walker, indeed, states that “the millet system has sometimes been praised as a model of just administration, sometimes criticized for being opportunistic. Certainly, as a method for administration of conquered people, it was morally ahead of anything to come out of Europe at the time or for some time after.”  You claim that these are no small words by an author who generally is not favorable to either Turks or Turkish government, but you forgot to tell the posters that you conveniently omitted the rest of Walker’s paragraph. Here’s what follows “for some time after” after a colon:
     
    […] : compare the Spanish conquest of South America, or the behaviour of the Portuguese conqueror D’Albuquerque who, during his expedition of 1507 along the shores of the Persian Gulf, mutilated Muslim prisoners of both sexes with the object of inspiring terror.”

    In other words, the millet system was certainly better than physical annihilation and mutilations of a people. Even in the fraction that you chose to cite Walker doesn’t state univocally that the millet system was favorable for the conquered, colonized people. He says: “the millet system has sometimes been praised [by whom? Turks and Turkophiles?] as a model of just administration, sometimes criticized for being opportunistic [again, by whom? – G].”  However, on pages 88 and 89, Walker demonstrates that although Armenians didn’t suffer the fate of the South American aborigines or Muslim prisoners of D’Albuquerque (only until 1894-96, 1909, and 1915-23 — G), the millet system was discriminatory and unbearable.
     
    Here’s a passage in its entirety that follows the paragraph from which you selectively chose a fragment:
     
    “In terms of results, too, it was a cleverly contrived system, since the ruler soon drew the benefits[…], while waiting for the districts to become profitable. Even at the early stage there were flaws in the Ottoman system, which were later to make the position of Armenians quite intolerable. Besides this enormous general disadvantage, Armenians suffered from certain specific discriminations. As Christians, they were not permitted to bear arms, which laid them open to their predatory neighbours. Their religion did give them the benefit of exemption from military service (although it also meant that no officer class could emerge among them), since only a Muslim might draw his sword in the defence of Islam. Nevertheless Christians were subjected to the devshirme, or boy-collection, whereby officials used to take children from the Christian communities, educate them as Muslims and put them into the Ottoman civil service. By the end of the 16th century devshirme was an established practice in certain Armenian localities. As regards taxation, all Christians were required to pay poll-tax and, where relevant, property tax. These taxes were not collected in an orderly manner; more often it was a question of officials just extorting as much as they could from the people, who had no redress. One disability which the Armenians alone of the Christian peoples of the empire had to bear, and one that was resented most especially, was the obligation to provide free winter quarters (kishlak) to the nomadic Kurds and to their flocks, often for four to six months each year. Besides the disagreeable presence of squatters, they ran up large expenses in providing food and animal foodstuffs.”
     
    And then, on page 89, Walker concludes:
     
    “The [millet] system was a degrading humiliation. All these factors led to the steady impoverishment of the Armenians. In every sphere they were reminded that they were inferior to Muslims, and were consequently reduced to frightened subservience.”
     
    No further comments…

  453. ragnar naess,   about what happened in 1915. Your interpretation:  “[…]the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans. And when one added nationalism, the combined threat of the powers and the aspirations for independence on the part of the Christian Ottoman population plus the experiences of massacres and ethnic cleansing of Turks in 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made them attack Armenians, even those who were not active politically, even women and children because they had rights in the eyes of the powers and could be used as pawns.”
     
    Compare what Lewis says:
     
    “For the Turks, the Armenian movement was the deadliest of all threats. From the conquered lands of the Serbs, Bulgars, Albanians, and Greeks, they could, however reluctantly, withdraw, abandoning distant provinces and bringing the Imperial frontier nearer home. But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast, lay in the very heart of the Turkish homeland—and to renounce these lands would have meant not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state.”
     
    These are no small words by an author who generally is not favorable to either Armenians or the Armenian Diaspora or the Armenian government.
     
    Bernard Lewis, The Emergence of Modern Turkey

  454. CAN SOMEONE SAY…. GOR just won his Case and RAGNAR lost his in a very embarassing way…in people’s court.. Case closed….I say I CAN….

    Gor and Avery JAN.. yes dzer tsav@ tanem… yes dzezanov hpart em… HPART…:)  

  455. I would never mind one of my compatriots responding on my behalf Gor: all for one, one for all. We are one team battling Denialists.  I admire your patience with certain posters. 

     

  456. Gor

    Bernard Lewis is spot on. I have just finished a book called ” Armenian Massacres in Ottoman Turkey& A Disputed Genocide” writen by Guenter Lewy. He tells the details of the Armenian Indipendence movement which is exactly the opposite of what you try to portray here. The economic reasons are virtialy nil as Greeks stayed in the Western Turkey untill the end of the WW1 and they weren’t deported. I haven’t read the book of Bernard lewis but Guenter Lewy and Bernard Lewis seem to point  out the Armenian Independence movement therefore either they or you must be wrong.

    It is amazing to see how some Armenians interpret the subjects exactly the opposite way. Erdogan didn’t say ” do not integrate” He did say ” Please integrate but do not allow to be assimilate . What is wrong with it? Avery, You are a loss case. I am not hopeful that you will see the light at the end of the tunnel

  457. Monastras— I believe my friend Avery asked you this question numerous times, and yet to receive a response…

    Please be so kind to answer a direct question TO YOU before you continue asking your own questions.. Understood????

    {Guest – Monastras
    2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
    (posted @Hurriyet)

    Yes or No ?

    We are all ears…

    Gayane  
     
     

  458. Do you affirm or do you retract – with apologies  – your post below:
    {Guest – Monastras 
    2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
    (posted @Hurriyet)

    Yes or No ?

    In case you haven’t figured it out by now, Madam, every one of your posts addressed to me on any thread will be answered with a re-paste of your Denialist post from Hurriyet.

    Affirm it proudly for all to see here @AW, or deny and withdraw it with shame and apologies: we can take it from there. 

  459. you beat me to it, sister Gayane. I am honored and proud. Very proud indeed of our Armenian Lady Samurai. A lightening flash of high-carbon layered steel……and another one bites the dust.

  460. Avery jan-it is a pleasure to be o the same side as you… always…I watch your back and you do the same for me..and as promised I will remind Monastras and Robert the same thing over and over… and I intend to keep my promise..:)

    Always an honor

    Gayane
    Aka… Armenian Lady Samurai

  461. Hello John,

    Did you ever get the list of the SERIOUS CLAIMS you suggest Turkey has?? because we are still waiting… please don’t delay….we are eager to hear what you have to say…

    John
    August 29, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Boyajian
    I do not  understand how it will happen unless you sit down and listen to their claim which is very serious.

      

  462. monastras,    I understand you have an insulting post which you’re required to affirm or retract. Until you do that, I won’t respond to your bloviations re: Lewy’s book or how Lewy was amply rewarded by Turkish authorities through the launching of a campaign to distribute his distortionist book free of charge to libraries and to select groups of diplomats.

    P.S. Have you ever read any account written by a scholar who’s not a genocide denialist, by any chance? Or you only read what soothes your ears? Genocide scholars’ accounts massively outnumber a few accounts by the denialists, did you know that?

  463. I did read the Taner Akcam book which is in my library. I asked him to answer my questions but he hasn’t replied. I haven’t seen any answer to my questions in his writings as well.

  464. BTW, I have a a first edition of the “Emergence of Modern Turkey” by Bernard Lewis. It was my father’s from college. You would be interested to know that he called it the “Armenian holocaust” and did a pretty good job of laying out the environment that lead to the holocaust/genocide. He also did a thorough breakdown of various CUP members and their roles in the holocaust. 

    In subsequent editions of the book the term Armenian Holocaust was omitted.

    This occurred largely because Lewis was going to be denied access to Turkish archives if he did not submit to their official directives not too mention a large donation to Princeton from the Turkish government for the Middle East Dept.  This is not just my opinion but holds sway amongst his academic peers as well.

    At the time, he one of the few Middle East scholars of any renown. He desperately wanted to remain in the good graces of Turkish authorities and so essentially made a deal with the devil. Additionally, Lewis began to develop Neo-conservative tendencies before it became so widespread, meaning that his views were pro-Israel, pro- Zionist, and mirrors Lewy’s views:

    1. As long as Israel and Turkey get along, we will advocate for Turkey
    2. There WAS, IS, AND WILL ONLY EVER BE be one genocide and it happened to the Jews full-stop. 
     

  465. Gor jan… I am sure Monastras does not..unfortunately….it would have been nice to see her convert into he righteous side of the path but the way she is going, hmmmm.. who knows???

    Gayane

  466. Joseph– Thank you for your post.. it gives a clear picture who this loser Lewis is.. another bought individual by the Turkish govt.. not surprised…

    Gayane

  467. Joseph,this is a very important observation which I did not know about.Very enlightening.Could you please give the details of this 1st edition(print date/publishing house etc) together with the page numbers where ‘Armenian Holocaust’ is mentioned?Many thanks in advance.

  468. gor
    youwrite: [All the above] “created a siege mentality that made [Turks] attack Armenians.” There’s hardly any evidence of the Armenians’ involvement, except for aspirations for independence of a few Armenian revolutionaries that could have created “a siege mentality that made Turks attack Armenians”.
    Comment . you get me wrong. the siege mentality didnt need much Armenian involvement to lead to a targeting of the Armenians, it was in the main produced by the experiences of 1877-78 and 1912-13, not by the Armenians, but of course armenian revolutionaries contributed to the siege mentality and paranoia. As I say this was a paranoia, and paranoic people overeact, they may even murder. I was not commenting on the Armenian involvement in this section of my text. But may be you only read in my comments what you already have decided is meant by me?

  469. avery
    I feel you are a bit hard on Monastras. We should rather discuss. Monastras, the opinion that the deportations and massacres of Ottoman Armenians in 1915-16 constitutes genocide is not only shared by Armenians. It is shared by the majority of relevant historians, right or wrong, and the general opinion in the West. As you probably have noticed I agree with most of the parties in some, but not in all, but I disagree that the whole issue is some Armenian construction. Do you really mean this?

  470. Bernard Lewis is an old man who has been anti-Armenian and anti-genocide for his entire career, and appears to be well connected the micro-community of those who subscribe to such views. Yes, he is a scholar and an academic, but let’s remember that does not mean his work is honest, truthful or even objective. He promotes a stilted point of view as academic research, but does not reveal his filters.  He promotes a very specific angle that gets him accolades in certain, micro communities who – very lemming-like – stand in awe, rather than level any honest critique of his assertions. While not a complete fraud like Lewy or McCarthy, he is another in a long line of opportunists who suck at the teat of the Turkish propaganda machine and got a big head in the process.   

  471. I cited Bernard Lewis to demonstrate that even a notorious genocide denier like him concludes in The Emergence of Modern Turkey that Armenians represented the deadliest of threats for the Turks not because, as ragnar naess wrongly claims, the times of imperialism were different from the times of the Sultans or because nationalism, augmented by the threat of the Powers, Ottoman Christians’ aspirations for independence, and the experiences of massacres of Turks in the wars of 1877-78 and 1912-13 created a siege mentality that made Turks attack Armenians, even women and children, but because Turks wished to keep for themselves as much land and properties at the expense of the Armenians. Turks understood that renouncing the Armenian lands would have meant the dissolution of the Turkish state. This is the major reason of perpetrating the genocide against Armenians who otherwise—except their few revolutionaries’ aspirations for independence that were common to all of the oppressed peoples of the Ottoman empire–posed no real threat to the Turks. As much as I despise sell-out Lewis, I think his conclusion has some validity. Lewis, to me, is pettier wormling than McCarthy and Lewy. At least these two stuck to their guns as genocide deniers at all times. Lewis, on the other hand, at first described the Armenian massacres as “the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a million and a half Armenians perished” in the first two editions of The Emergence of Modern Turkey (1961 and 1968), but then altered the text to: “the terrible slaughter of 1915, when, according to estimates, more than a million Armenians perished, as well as an unknown number of Turks.”

  472. Monastras,    yeah? Have you  asked Lewy to answer your questions, or you felt no need to ask questions because Lewy’s distortionist account soothed your Turkish ears?

  473. Boyajian,
    you write: Ragnar, it depends on what you have solidarity for. If your
    solidarity is with truth and fairness for both sides, I’m sure no one can fault
    you for this. Comment: that is the kind iof solidarity I have. for truth and justice and those who honestly try to understand and judge what happened. That we may disagree is another matter.
    You write:
    But your apparent solidarity with those Turks (not all) and others (McCarthy,
    etal) who distort the truth, denigrate the Armenians, and deny them justice,
    casts a shadow on you. You can see this, can’t you?
    Comment:
    Again I feel you do not sort out questions of honest/dishonest attitude from
    those of true/false opinion. Besides, I read McCarthy as I read Dadrian: some  ting I agree with and something not.

    you write: You attack known, established, contemporaneous eye-witness accounts
    in support of what? You support modern-day, manufactured versions, skewed
    toward a Turkish revisionist viewpoint, because…?
    Comment: No, you have misunderstood. I have not been clear enough. The preface of this book (The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, published in 1916) made by Bryce is to my mind valueless in a research setting. The material, texts, letters, ect, comprise more than
    500 pages and is valuable, it has been published afresh in an edited version by
    Ara Sarafian. This is indeed a collection of contemporary testimonies and these are interesting and valuable. The section on the history of Armenians up to the year 1915, provided at trhe
    end of the book, is something else. I never saw anybody referring to it. But I
    have only looked a little at it. I prefer to read Hovannesian, Walker,
    Libaridian or Lang for general Armenian history.

    you write: Your goal is a book, not justice, and this puts you at odds with
    many here. This is not a personal attack against you, but what you do is a personal slap against the
    children of the victims.
    Comment: I
    understand that this is your opinion. I respect you but I don’t agree. We have
    discussed this kind of thing before.

    Last comment: Finkel tries to describe the disagreement on what happened in 1915. She does not go into the question, butshe presents arguments and even some documentation for the version of genocide researchers. I feel she is honest.  

  474. ragnar naess,    I do read in your comments what I already have decided is meant by you because I watched the video of your discussion at the University of Utah in tandem with infamous McCarthy and I read your comments in AW.  Your standpoints leave almost no doubt in my mind that you are a genocide denier working tirelessly to give justifications for Ottoman Turkish barbarism against Armenians.  The latest one is “Turkish siege mentality and paranoia.”  I cited Lewis to illustrate that mass extermination of the Armenians was not the consequence of Turkish overreaction or paranoia. Rather, it was a sober-minded, meticulously-planned destruction of an ethnic group, certainly not because a bunch of revolutionaries might have contributed to the “siege mentality and paranoia”, but because Turks realized that independent Armenia would have meant the dissolution of their state. They slaughtered an uninvolved people to become owners of their lands and properties: a classical act of genocide.
     
    Re:   “siege mentality and paranoia; paranoiac people overreact, they may even murder.”
    Anders Behring Breivik has become paranoiac about Norwegian multiculturalist society, about Muslim women walking in headscarves on Oslo streets, about salat al-fajr (morning prayers) lugubriously called for by muezzins in a Western society that’s not accustomed to Asian/Middle Eastern way of life.  This maniac obviously overreacted by murdering people who had no involvement whatsoever in the emergence or the target of his paranoia.  If you justify Turks’ “paranoia” against uninvolved Armenians that resulted in mass murders, it means you could justify Brevik’s paranoia, too?

  475. Ragnar–  sorry to say but YOU ARE AFTER YOUR BOOK and not JUSTICE… end of story…

    Oh by the way..you are telling Avery he is a bit harsh on Monastras??? HA….now that is funny…..is Monastras related to you? because honestly you are being a bit too oversensitive about the facts that are brought to you and to Monastras…there is no running away Ragnar.. you have to stand behind your statements…. and Monastras has not yet.. so until she does you know it will be reminded again and again.. asking direct questions and stating facts  is not being harsh.. it is being truthful and showing that denialists have no place on these pages…so don’t push YOUR luck Ragnar.. i know we let you overstay on these pages not because we want to.. but because we are polite and patient… remember that… 

  476. ragnar
    The whole issue isn’t armenian construction.armenians weren’t only people who fought against turks. But they had a special position which they shared the same homeland but they didn’t realized or ignored this. The answer to your question is from lewy’s book ” in eastern anatolia, too, as we have seen armenian assistance to the russians had been extensive.none of this can serve to justify what the turks did to armenians, but it provides the indispensable historical context for tragedy that ensued.given this context,the armenians can hardly claim that they suffered for no reason at all.ignoring warnings from many quarters,large number of armenians had fought the turks openly or played fifth column, not surpsisigly,with their backs against the wall,ottomans reacted resolutely,if not viciously”
    I can also give you ten to fifteen scholar names.they are all in the west.why do you not think that many scholars might have lined up behind the armenian scholars

  477. “Besides, I read McCarthy as I read Dadrian: something I agree with and something not.”
     
    Right. Has anyone ever seen ragnar naess’s citations from or referring to Vahakn Dadrian on these pages? Ever?
     
    “Finkel tries to describe the disagreement on what happened in 1915. She does not go into the question, but she presents arguments and even some documentation for the version of genocide researchers. I feel she is honest.”
     
    Right. Here’s what Turkey-based, “Daughters of Atatürk” award-given “honest” author Caroline Finkel writes on p. 535 of her Osman’s Dream: the Story of the Ottoman Empire, 1300-1923:
     
    “The 1948 Convention on Genocide outlaws the destruction ‘in whole or in part’ of a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, ‘as such’. That terrible massacres took place on both sides (emphasis mine) is not in doubt; the devil is in the detail, and only generally disinterested historical research will establish whether the deportation and death of the Armenians of Anatolia constituted a genocide or not – if (emphasis mine) that is what to be determined. No ‘smoking gun’ has been found in the Ottoman archives, but this cannot be taken as evidence that no order was given.”
     
    Same, old denialist tale:
     
    (1)Massacres took place on both sides. Indeed, why would Finkel feel the need for a disinterested research on whether the deportation and death of the Armenians of Anatolia constituted a genocide or not? How about poor, unarmed Turks massacred en masse by Armenians? What did she receive her “Daughters of Atatürk” award for?!
     
    (2)Genocide is not what is to be determined. Why won’t Armenians just stick to the parcel of Turkish bosh and rubbish that Armenian deaths occurred during the war?
     
    (3)There exists no decree signed, sealed, and delivered from the CUP government to the provincial administrations, municipalities, village councils, the army, the gendarmes, the prisons who let the criminals out with a sole purpose of exterminating the Armenians.  No ‘smoking gun’. A whole nation of 2 million people has just vanished into thin air, evaporated, so to speak.
     
    Very “honest” of her, ragnar naess, isn’t it?  She’s “honest” because she’s your soulmate on the genocide issue, isn’t she?

  478. Wasn’t it Bernard Lewis who received a symbolic sentence of ‘guilty’ for denying the genocide in France?  As I recall, he refused to implicate Turkey on any level. If memory serves me right, he also refuses to equate the holocaust with the genocide, which says everything we need to know about him.

  479. Dear Vtiger, the information about Lewis is pretty well known.  In my copy of the second edition (reprinted in 1969) we read the following words (p. 356):  “… that ended with the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a  million and a half Armenians perished.”  [Bernard Lewis, The Emergence of Modern Turkey, published by Oxford University Press in London.]  I think it would be useful to get the first edition and compare.

  480. Ragnar, Gor made a very good point regarding Anders Breivik.  I am curious what you will answer.
     
    Also, thanks for responding to my post above.  

  481. As with Hitler, who needed more lands for the Germans and used conquest and genocide to get it, Talaat & Co. also ‘needed’ more lands to accomodate the ‘Turks’ they were importing from the Balkans. So, they too resorted to theft and genocide.  All those blond ‘Turks’ you see today came in from the outside and were given Armenian houses and property across Turkey. This isn’t some kind of fable, it’s historical fact.  Despite Lewis’s protestations and eloquent language, he is a denialist at heart – who also despises Armenians. He’s had a long life where he could have been conciliatory or apologetic, or even just said something nice about Armenians, but alas…that has not happened…just the opposite.   

    His contemporary, Dr. Howard M. Sachar, had a very different tone when he wrote several excellent chapters on the Armenians and the genocide in:

    The Emergence of the Middle East: 1914–1924 (1969) 

     

  482. gor
    my point here was to cite anybody. As for armenian scholars I have cited Libaridian and Sarafian, and always approvingly. I have also, I believe, cited, Kevorkian, anyhow I have worked write a lot with his book from 2006. Dadrian is indispensable regarding many aspects of the period of the tanzimat an onwards, but I never use him regsarding the main questions of 1915. When he talks about the “secret ittihadist conference” in march 1915 which is supposed to have “decided on the genocide” any freshman learning methodology can see that his writ is more or less pure conjecture.
    gor
    are you sure you are not jumping from issue to issue? my point was the following: I read any book to see if there is anything valuable in it. I mentioned McCarthy and Dadrian Your comment: have you ever cited Dadrian? This is another theme but it provides an impression that you are debating with me, or at least upholding the polemics. By tthe way, you stopped following my reasons why the massacres and ethnic cleansing of Bulgarians must constitute genocide according to the reasoning of ICTJ in 2002. 

  483. I posted the following message on the thread following the AW article on Turkey decreeing to restore part of properties confiscated from christians.  The occasion for Gayane’s remark was Robert’s message that he had lost his brother who died from a heart disease. Robert apologized for many of the things he had said, but added that it was caused by him being censored (the same thing Monastras says, I dont know if you  ever wrote the editors, Monastras). In his last message Robert again criticised the Armenian position.

    gayane
    you write:
    AND YOUR LAST POST , WHICH MATCHES TO YOUR AVATAR ABOVE….ahhhhh.. guess the mourning period is over Robert…
    honestly, Gayane, what kind of style is this? You also start with the words: Ahhhhh Robert.. i was wondering when you will come back to your real senses…and whallaaaaa…..you did.. guess it is hard to break old habbits… I would like to take everyone to the memory lane and share the journey of your posts…to show the progression of how many avatars you used and the change in your style of writings…
    – Gayane, this not only is crude and cruel against a man who shares his pain having lost his brother to a heart disease in these pages. It is also – as I have said several times on these pages – an absolutely hopeless way to approach people you disagree with and whom you want to influence.
    Gayane: I disagree with Robert – whom you call “Robert the Turk”, but I feel your response to him here is like you are in some kind of frenzy. And it is undeserved for a man who has shared a personal loss on these pages. I dont believe in that style of debate

  484. Ragnar,  your post to me:
    Again I feel you do not sort out questions of honest/dishonest attitude from
    those of true/false opinion. Besides, I read McCarthy as I read Dadrian: some  ting I agree with and something not.
     
    Please clarify for me, what is the difference?  Do you mean that I do not distinguish between an honest question and one expressing doubt because of ulterior motives?   As you know, your “questioning” makes me uneasy.  To me, you are either knowingly or unknowingly easing the way for distortion of the truth to enter the dialogue.   It is as if you give ‘comfort to the enemy,’ which I find deplorable.    I don’t want to reward lies and deliberate denial of the truth by accepting them as valid ‘other sides of the coin’ when they are merely attempts to avoid accepting guilt.  The destruction to the Armenian nation caused by Turkey is undeniable, it was a crime that has to be paid for.  Do you agree?
     
     

  485. Robert-the-Turk: When “Robert’  concocted the story about him allegedly having lost a brother to heart disease, we Armenians gave him the benefit of the doubt.
    We believed ‘him’ when he wrote that  ‘he’ was a changed man, due to having (allegedly) experienced a very personal loss.
    Both myself and Boyajian expressed sincere condolences. And I do mean sincere.  Unfortunately, his subsequent posts and behaviour  leave no doubt that we were played.
    Apparently, only reason for that fabricated story was to stop us from reminding ‘Robert’ about his promise not to come back to @AW. He couldn’t freely spew his Anti-Armenian propaganda, because he was being reminded of his promise every time he tried to post.
    He needed to be able to again post @AW freely.  He needed  a way out of  the dead-end he had boxed himself into – so he came with that stratagem. We extended a hand of friendship, and he spat on it. Too bad:  it’s his loss.
     
    And we are also aware that  ‘Robert’ is more than one person – a group of Turks posting under ‘Robert’, with a main writer who concocted the dearly departed fairy tale.  So spare us.
     
     
    And before chiding Gayane about her posting style, clean up your own writing. You called Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’;  You  referred to our exterminated Armenian ancestors using terms reserved for garbage – ‘disposed of’. Anyone who says that, has forever forfeit the right to criticize us about anything.  How much more despicable can one get calling our dead children and babies garbage in so many words ?
     
     
    Someone who writes that has not earned the right to criticize anything Gayane writes. Someone who is a decent, normal, fair human being would be ashamed to chide Armenians about  anything after calling them ‘inbreds’.  But we see this classic (mis)behaviour from Turks and their Turcophile cadres repeatedly.
     
    Nothing is beneath  them. They give themselves the right to call our exterminated ancestors trash, in so many words, yet have the gall to chide one of our own for exposing a deceitful, Anti-Armenian poster.
    Frankly I am impressed by the level of self-control and civility many of my fellow Armenian posters exhibit  towards someone who calls Armenians ‘inbreds’.
     
     
    And constantly bringing up the ‘debate’  baloney is a dead end: NO Debating the Armenian Genocide here.
    And no effort is or should be made to, quote, ‘influence’  Denialists: they are to be shouted down everywhere they ply their trade.
    We are way past the stage where we need to influence anyone about AG.
     
     
    PS: Gayane, please feel free to paste my response, or any part thereof,  at every thread where Ragnar-the-Norwegian has sprinkled his Magnum Opus.
    He has apparently developed an obsession with you: has copied his  critique of you  to about 5-6 different threads.
    I guess he wants the world to know he is displeased with you. Looks like you gonna get an ‘F’ from The Prof  this semester.
    Please don’t do anything drastic before you talk to us first. You have many friends here.

  486. On this thread I only saw you citing McCarthy and Finkel, ragnar naess.     An incomplete clause from a paragraph from Walker failed to support your outlandish argument that Armenians “led a fairly good life” in Ottoman centuries, because Walker is of exactly opposite opinion, as I demonstrated. My comment: “Has anyone ever seen ragnar naess’s citations from or referring to Vahakn Dadrian?” attests to the fact that on this thread you never cited any Armenian genocide scholar or non-Armenian non-denialist scholars, who are many.   And no, I’m not upholding the polemics with you. I’m haunting you, because I sense you’re a genocide denier and Turk sympathizer.
     
    “By the way, you stopped following my reasons why the massacres and ethnic cleansing of Bulgarians must constitute genocide according to the reasoning of ICTJ in 2002.”
    By the way, you never laid out your reasons about massacres and ethnic cleansing of Bulgarians so I follow(?!) them. Or you meant Bulgarian Turks? If so, I believe I gave you—free of charge for your book—plenty of arguments as to why massacres of Bulgarian Turks did not constitute genocide according to the reasoning of ICTJ. The major one being, I repeat, that Bulgarian Turks represented ethnically one of the warring sides in wars waged by Ottoman Turkey, hence they suffered atrocities. Rephrasing a popular saying: “All is ‘fair’ in war.” Since I noticed a tendency in you to snatch words out of the context or even post words never uttered by the Armenian commentators, I rush to stress: “fair” in quotation marks and with a gruesome feeling: nothing justifies killings of the civilians, but no war, unfortunately, passes them by if their ethnicity is the same as the combatants’. Compare their situation with the situation of uninvolved Ottoman Armenians and answer to yourself—with your hand on your heart—if the two situations—in terms of magnitude, scope, governmental involvement, circumstances on the ground, and deliberate intent to destroy a race—were similar at all.

  487. Ragnar, another thought:
    I guess I am saying I do not believe one can play the ‘neutral observer’ in such a situation.   You are looking down from your northern perch toward the south and observing the conflict between some hot and passionate types from the cradle of civilization and behaving as if you have the perspective to suss out what really happened 100 years ago.   As if the elimination of a people from their homeland is a confusing problem.  As if the crime doesn’t stare you squarely in the face.   As if ‘research’ will reveal the undeniable ‘smoking gun’.   Just look at the numbers from 1914 and compare them to today.  The truth is obvious.   A government permitted this destruction against its citizens, and that government must face justice. 
     
    Nothing wrong with trying to understand the times that birthed such destruction, or the motives of those who carried out these crimes, but this academic or intellectual understanding should not take precedence over humanity taking a hard stand against such acts.    Human beings who experience such inhumanity deserve compassion from other human beings and swift justice, not a cold treatise of one Norwegian’s opinion about what happened.

  488. Mersi Avery jan.. as long as I know du indz hing es tvel.. I could care less what our broken historian gives me… but then again.. what shall I do now that I got an F from Ragnar??? Oh my…oh wait… wait. wait..wait…….I BET my parents will be very proud of my F.. who was ever happy to get an F??.. but i am Avery jan.. I got an F from a Denialist.. this means I did my job right…:)  AMEN

    Thank you for commenting to Ragnar.. truly appreciate it.. don’t worry about me doing anything drastic.. i am not that type..:) but what I will do is this…

    Ragnar you ready to see the ENTIRE story?????? ok… be ready…

    Gayane     

  489. By the way, ragnar naess,    you never answered my question as to whether your justification of Turks’ actions as paranoia, overreaction leading to murder, in the case of uninvolved Armenians in Ottoman Turkey may also be applicable to any justification on your part of Anders Behring Breivik’s actions as paranoia, overreaction leading to murder, in the case of uninvolved Norwegians on Utøya Island?  I’m all ears…

  490. Gor, a little while ago mjm posed a question  @AW involving a thought experiment he conceived about the very same Breivik, the  ‘intent’ obfuscation, and such. I don’t remember the thread, so can’t check its progress. However, Boyajian indicated about a week ago that mjm‘s question had not been answered at that time. 

    Has it been answered since  ?

  491. Avery,    most of my posts are on this thread, and I don’t recall noticing his comments involving Brevik.  Maybe on other threads, but I wouldn’t know.

  492. Ragnar— as we all know you like to select and pick JUST the bits and pieces of our comments that suits your denialist and Turkophile self… admit it.. you know you do that.. we caught you many times..but it is hard to break old habbits…does not matter.. I am ok with that.. as long as we point that out everytime you try to pull something like this again…….

    You chiding me for being insensitive to Robert is a bit of insensitive on your part don’t you think??? why do YOU feel my actions are not appropriate when you yourself can’t face the fact you have done plenty of damage yet we allow you to post on these pages.. hmmm this does not scream being harsh and sensitive to me does it to you???? I am honored that you can’t get enough of me… truly do.. but let me TAKE YOU YET AGAIN to the memory lane…. to show you exactly what happened vs what you TRY to portray happened….

    This is my response to Robert the Turk’s sad story when he expressed the loss of a brother….
    I am sure you conveniently forgot to post this in your last comment to me right???
     
    gayane
    August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Robert … for a minute I thought I was reading someone else’s comment..such a contrast from your previous posts…
    I am sorry to hear about your loved one passing away.. It is always a tragedy to lose someone you love and close to you.. God knows, we Armenians know that feeling of loss and pain very well..
    However, I am just sad that something like this had to happen in your life to turn the tide around… all those times when a comment popped up by you.. it would have saved us great deal of back and forth if you only stopped and asked yourself…why am I doing this, why am I saying this .. why am I sharing such filth with Armenians… knowing very well what my people went through and going through was and is pure pain and unacceptable treatement…Well you learn from your mistakes I guess…
    Do not want to sound insensitive; however our reaction to your comments to some extent were justified regardless if they were a bit harsh at times..it was not done intentionally or with cruel intentions; however they were deserved…but in any case, enough said… i just hope that what you expressed here is not a simple decoy to deflate our annoyance with your past insensitive comments.. but truly a confession that maybe it is time for you and hopefully many of your friends who are still in denial to come out of their comma and understand what truly happened at a more deeper level .   
    Again, sorry for your loss…

    You see Ragnar… Armenians don’t jump to respond without acknowledging what occured.. but once you step on our toes, you will get what you deserve….similar thing happened with Monastras… you see, when you play the other as a puppet, we will catch you in your game..

    This is my second post following my first post above….pay attention to the bolded sentence…

    Gayane
    August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    I was a bit skeptical myself to read about such a revelation in Robert The Turk…. i knew it was abit too good to be true but i gave him the benefit of the doubt.. however, if he is pulling our leg with this story, he better not come back on these pages or else he will be called out so many times with such force on these pages, that he will regret playing with people like that… 
    Gayane

    Ragnar: you can see i was very nice; however at the same time i gave him a fair warning that if he is taking us as one stupid group of people, he will be reminded how conyving he is over and over……did I or did I not do that???   

    Now lets look at the change in his behavior RIGHT AFTER he posted his sad story…..make sure you have coffee when you read the thread because it might take you a while…..Thank you for your time…  pay attention how his tone changes from what he portrayed himself in his first few posts to the same denialist toward the end of the thread….. injecting with denialist statements at EVERY chance he got…. I am sorry Ragnar that you feel bad for MOnastras and Robert but the truth remains… well truth hurts.. that is first…also, my comments are absolutely justified and i guess when one decides to mock me and my ancestors and does everything to ridicule the memory of my family who was barbarically murdered by pretending to be an understanding individual, I WILL CALL THAT PERSON OUT.. so please spare me your polite and “civilized” manner Ragnar….. no one cares here.. anyway back to my point….

    I would like to take everyone on a journey and share SOME of Robert’s posts…to show the progression of how many avatars he used and the change in his style of writings…… I want to show everyone how creative, sneaky but yet how much of anger and denial still lives in him……..

    Robert
    August 20, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
    Avery,
    It’d sure be nice if you knew what you were talking about! Armenia lives for handouts!! Must I remind you of Armenia’s economic standing (only Madagascar is worse)? Without my tax dollars going to one of the most corrupt and religiously oppressive nations on the planet, and also without the Russian military there to protect you (LMAO), Armenia would be the typical professional beggars that they’ve been for the past century! So cry me a river and read a book for once (not the typical ARF dashnak Armenian propaganda)!

    Robert
    August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
    I very recently just lost my brother to heart disease. I’ve come to a point in my life that hate and this constant “one up-manship” is wrong. I still believe that we need to debate if we are to settle our differences and be able to come to terms and reconcile, but ever since my personal family loss, my feelings and outlook towards life have truly changed. It doesn’t matter whether you nor anyone else believes me. Life is too damn short to continue this nonesense. I guess what I’m trying to say to you, and to the rest of you on this site, is that I’m sorry for any smartass remarks I may have made, as well as any personal insults I may have said in the past. It was wrong and not a mature approach to deal with a complex issue. Sometimes, one’s feelings just well up from deep inside and come forth before one has a total grasp of those feelings, and translated into words that may be hurtful, ugly and/or misconstrued. I think that we’re all guilty of this to varying extents. If you all can forgive me for my past and recent transgressions, I certainly, and already have, forgiven all of you for your negative contributions as well. I believe that we all can be friends. I extend my hand to you all in burying the hatchet and taking those first important steps to becoming friends once more. I don’t mean to ramble (it’s not always easy to find the words one feels), but there it is. I’d be more than happy to come back to give positive inputs if so invited. If not, then I’ll understand and bother you no more (no grudges held either). Sometimes we all have to take chances in life!   

    Robert
    August 22, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
    To the editorial board:
    I’ve said/written some cruel and neagative things about you. For this I sincerely apologize. I have no real excuse other than the frustration of having my comments censored or deleted, and thus being unable to defend myself at crucial periods. Regardless though, those reasons are no excuse for some of the horrible things that I had written to you. It was wrong of me and I’m sorry.

    Robert
    August 23, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
    Thank you for your kind words. I know that they were sincere. May we all strive to settle and overcome our differences and once again become the brothers and sisters God intended for us to be.

    ok.. from here on .. you can definintely see how Robert changed the writing style but in his core remains a denialist….tries to sway from what truly happened and gives and asks questions that have been answered numerous times and explained to him and denialists like him over and over again….sugarcoating thorns will not go well in any discussion groups where the truth is well known including the denialists and Turkophiles…AND when we all know how thorns feel..

    Robert
    August 27, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
    HovsepM,
    You’re wrong in your assumption about me. I’ve already written that I wish to provide positive input for all parties, so that an amicable solution can be reached and agreed to by all. I have a lot of very recent personal pain to deal with, which has given me a new insight. Although I have not given up on my beliefs of historical facts (as backed up by my grandfamilies documentations and verbal accounts of that era), I also believe that all sides suffered………… This is why a historical commission is so important (comprised of both Armenian, Turkish and neutral scholars), to review all archives and hopefully get to the truth of what truly occurred. I don’t believe that only Turks should be portrayed as being evil (when you know as well as I do that crimes were committed by all), and thus be solely expected to provide an apology (what about an apology from the Armenian side for their actions/roles?). the Turks and Armenians living outside (e.g. Europe and America) don’t have a full grasp of what they feel in Turkey and Armenia. This is a major factor that constantly creates problems. They say that they’re happy and “wish that those living outside would stop causing trouble”. This goes for both sides! I for one feel that they’re correct. We who live here in the US need not stick our noses into their lives over there. Let them settle their issues! Perhaps then the NK situation and any other problem can thus be settled, (REALLY???? :my comment) with new freindship treaties between Turkey, Armenia and Azebaijan signed, creating cooperation in many areas (economical, scientific, cultural, etc.), with mutual advancement and peace in the region.          
     

    Robert
    August 28, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
    You can’t have your cake and eat it too! Keep in mind that the more which is made of this, the more of a backlash it will provide when it comes time for settling the NK situation. Rest assured that Turkey, Azerbaijan and Moslems world-wide will NOT go gently into that good night! They will pay close attention to what PM Erdogan is doing AND what the reactions from Armenians and Greeks will be, and how they will reciprocate. My advice thus, is to stop grumbling for everything on the planet, and act like adults.
    Otherwise, you simply give impetus for what I mentioned earlier.

    Robert
    August 28, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Once again, an attack on Turkey, Turks, Turkish-Cypriots!! First of all, the liberation of 1974 was NOT illegal! I’m not going to any further explination regarding this (since I’ve done so many times already). Secondly, I was on vacation in Santo Domingo, Dominican Republic in 1983. Julio was performing there. He began to insult the Dominican people by saying how lower class they were as compared to pure Spaniards (like himself). This percipitated a massive booing by the audience, so much so that he was literally booed off the stage! This ought to be taken into consideration when his character is brought into question during the trial.

    Robert
    August 31, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Note: I DID NOT INCLUDE THE ENTIRE COMMENT as it was long and just not educational enough…..

    Thirdly, before the Ottomans captured Cyprus, it was held by the Venitians for many centuries! The last time any Greeks had any possesion of it was during Alexander’s Empire! So, with just a bit more of research and a lot less racist comments by certain individuals (e.g. Gayane, Thomas, etc.), one can see what history plainly shows as the truth. I’m sure that the same will occur, with the establishment of the joint historical commission regarding Turkey and Armenia. Once all of the archives are researched, then we’ll all know the actual truth once and for all, allowing us all closure and the ability to move forward in peace!    My comment: REALLY???  

    Robert
    August 31, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Karo, Jay, et al,
    Since you bring up the UN Security Council, please check to see the four sections of violation which the Armenians committed (and still do) in regards to the demands of the immediate withdrawl of all Armenian troops from the NK region! If you’re going to play with fire, you better be prepared to get burned!  my comment: REALLY????

    Robert
    August 31, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Joseph,
    You state that Armenians were well off before the Ottomans set them back. Please then, tell us how the Armenians faired when they were under the yolk of the Byzantines! Don’t forget to mention how Armenians were litereally taxed to death, how the Byzantinian soldiers came and took whatever they wished at random, as well as the constant rapes and beatings (don’t forget the tortures and outright killings)!
    Alex,
    You state that 70% of Turkey is illiterate, and that we are lazy and can only steal from others! Before my personal loss, I would have had some choice retorts for you. But in your case, your comment is ludicrous that you’re simply not worth responding to. BTW, when you write the name of a nation, you capitalize the first letter (FYI).
    It’s truly sad that there are nothing but attacks here. Will there come a time when we can also discuss the properties of Molems (Turks, Azeris, etc.) in Armenia that have yet to be returned and/or compensated for? Just out of curiosity, would anyone tell me how many Turks and/or Azeris live in Armenia? How many Mosques remain in Armenia? Thank you.   

     TO ALL: The copies of the avatars do not show up on the posts but I want to ensure that each avatar used by Robert the Turk except the recent few comments have different style and different colors..
    Black and white
    Pink and white
    Red and white
    Purple and white
    Strawberry red and white

    Thank you

    Gayane  
     

        

         

  493. I am a Turk firs of al need to mention that I share the pain of all deaths either armenian or turksh durin this period. I believe that the armenian population in Ottoman are used by Russians are rench to fight against Ottoman and these caused a bloody battle between the two old fellows. This two nation lived together in peace during centuries untill the enemy comes and make two brothers enemy to each other. Russia and France are  primary responsible to what had happened. It is not solution to discuss the happenings during the war. Th question must be who made armenians to fight againg to his own country.

  494. Those who are following the school of taught that simply there was a war between all nations including Ottomans and Armenians and there were some war casualties from both sides meaning one side was their Great 600 years old empire and the other side was Armenian children citizens of the opposite side. That is all. Another words, the cat never came out of its bag and therefore it never could cause any damage.
    The followings are undisputed facts:
    1. During these wars, there were living several thousand Armenian children
    under the protection of the Great Ottoman Empire.
    2. Almost all of these Armenian children were Christians.
    3. The Caliphate/Sultan/Empire of the Ottoman Empire declared Jihad/Holy War
    against all Christians including Armenian children. There was no exception in the said declaration.
    4. the Ottoman Empire deported these Armenian children, knowing very well that most of them are not going to make it.
    5. The Ottoman Empire managed to convert most of the survived Armenian children
    to Muslim.
    6. The Ottoman Empire/ Republic of Turkey decided to confiscate the graves of
    these Armenian children ancestors’ grave stones to pave their streets and use them in building the foundation of state buildings.
    Now, people like Robert expect from the Armenians to apologize for what Ottoman
    Empire has done to Armenian children. Because Turks have Turkish logic, I offer an apology on behave of all Armenians to Robert and to his friends so that they can all die in peace and go to….
    Note! The Turkish v. Armenian Issue is not a personal issue. It is a national issue.
    No one has right to downplay the gravity of the Ottoman Turks’ genocide against
    Ottoman Armenians and Ottoman Armenian children. I am sure that soon or later I
    will leave this world, however, my ideology will survive for ever and beyond
    ever. Some people’s imagination is limited by idea of forever. Yet, there are
    people who believe to the idea of not only forever, but beyond forever. My love to
    my nation and my homeland will continue forever and beyond.   
    For more info see the article published by the Honorable Judge Ozsu, a sitting judge in Republic of Turkey.  Judge Ozsu writes “to state that we feel terrible regarding these events…. Those who died at that time were not our enemies, but our citizens. Some of those who died were children. No one can speak of children as enemies.”

  495. “This two nation lived together in peace during centuries untill the enemy comes and make two brothers enemy to each other.”

    Nuri, two brothers, two nations lived in peace, are you kidding us? Please read your history. Armenians were treated as second or sometimes third class citizens. Their testimony was not addmisible in Ottomans’ courts. They were taxed much higher than ordinary citizens. They did not have right to use saddle to ride a horse, and so on. Please read my post above and I would appreciate your reflection.   
     

  496. Nuri— you are absolutely detached from reality…  seriously??? you seriously pose a question as to who caused Armenians (capitalize when you are referring to a race/nation) to fight against his own country (i think that is what you said right?)  SERIOUSLY?? Are you seriously asking that question or you were just typing just to type some words…??

    First of all… NO ONE caused Armenians to fight against his country.. i am assuming you mean the Ottoman Empire correct??  because Armenians were NOT IN WAR with any of the countries.. but what they were doing is to TRYING TO PROTECT THEMSELVES FROM being slaughtered by your blood thristy ancestors….

    Second of all: where did you read such rubbish? please provide name, page, publication date ect… because i want to go and educate myself on this garbage as I did not know France and Russia made Armenians to go fight against Ottoman Empire when in reality it was the Ottoman Empire who planned a systematic murder of 1.5 innocent souls.. you did know this right??? wait.. who am I asking… someone who believes Armenians and Turks lived in peace like brothers for centuries.. CENTURIES..

    My friends did you know this??? we lived in peace with Ottomans who murdered us in 1894-1896 and again in 1909 and again in 1915 up until 1923.. and now murdering us with White Genocide… and the kicker of all this IS: we lived in such good terms with them for CENTURIES….lol oh my Goodness… can you, denialists please stop embarassing yourselves with such gargabe you put on our pages?? you guys icreminate yourselves as illiterate people .. please spare yourselves the embarassment and us the pain from reading such nonsense…

    Gayane

  497. Boyajian
    Yes, I am looking for the post of mjm, I have not found it, but as far as I remember he asked for Norwegian reactions to the crimes of Berivik. It would be good to see the post again because I believe he asked some specific question. I will answer if you find the post, but you might of course ask the question afresh from your memory. – Of course Breivik’s actions may also be part of a paranoia which we see in many Norwegians today: the belief that Muslims are taking over the country. Sure this is paranoia.
    Apart from this ‘neutrality’ is a strange word. My point is that one must look at a situation and analyse it. If it is a situation where somebody has been wronged, as in the Armenian cause, one must make up one’s mind and pronounce one’s opinion, if this is deemed necessary. I never claimed to be neutral, however, I point to mistakes and shortcomings in both the received Armenian and the Turkish version. This is a very naturla thing to do for outsoders. Then about ‘cold’ reasoning: if I only was interested in cold reasoning i would never be on these pages. — But what I see in many Armenian posters is disturbing: in the name of pain any assertion about what happened and any characterization of Turks is allowed. This does not apply to you personally, but part of the disturbing fact is that extremist viewpoints (Turks only massacred and created havoc since they came from central Asia – Turks want to take over Europe, and the like) is never corrected by other Armenians here  

  498. The problem is more fundamental…when a state or government pursues an undeclared, internal war against its own citizens, while using larger, international conflicts as cover, then something is wrong withing that society and within that ruling government.  We see the same thing happening today….outside governments are very hesitant to take steps to stop internal abuse, as it is most often seen as an internal, domestic matter.  From the 1890s to 1915, very, very few Armenians actually ‘revolted’ or participated in subversive activities. Yes, some did, but the vast majority, living in cities, towns and villages across the empire were hard working, productive citizens until the day they were dragged out of their homes. They were fearful of a government that had gone over the edge and was seething with a new anti-Armenian hatred.  Until 1907, Armenian women could not leave the empire, but in that year, it changed and the floodgates opened.  Entire families left their ancestral lands, having sensed that another catastrophe was imminent because of ongoing raids and attacks on Armenians.  This seething, however,  was really just another outward expression of lust for Armenian land, businesses and bank accounts, because they thought that would solve their multitude of problems brought onto the empire by endless war and the push by Germany to grab the oil sitting under Ottoman-occupied lands.  The attempt to blame Armenians for their own demise is another creation by the anti-genocide propaganda machine. If Armenians can be blamed, so can others who have been subjected to genocides, or holocausts.

    The Turkish attempt to redefine Armenian self-defense as ‘revolt’ that required a genocidal response, is a rewriting of history and needs to be confronted head-on.  Perhaps an opening is being created now inside Turkey to allow the truth to rise to the top?  We can only hope – as it will benefit both Turks and Armenians.  If it’s difficult for Turks to see Armenians as something other than revolutionairies, then it’s even more difficult for some Armenians to see Turks as something
    other than mass murderers. This is the essence of the problem. The burden of changing this dynamic rests with the representatives of the larger, more powerful party – the one that commanded a massive imperial army that was in bed with imperial Germany at the time.  

       

         

  499. Correction Nuri:  Some Armenians fought against Turkey, not all.  Some fought with Turkey.   Those who fought Turkey did so after a series of broken lies by the CUP who had promised reform and self-determination to the Armenians, after years of massacres and abuse of power under Ottoman rule.  You can’t blame Russia and France for that.  You can’t blame these small pockets of Armenians for wanting to live as free and equal men so much that they were willing to fight for it after social and political avenues failed to provide it.  And you can’t blame pockets of rebellion for the deportations ordered by the CUP that eliminated a people from their homeland.  That was inhumane genocide.

  500. Gayane, you supported your viewpoint—you’ve done a fine job. 
    Now can we please stop flattering ‘Robert’ with all this attention?  ‘His’ recent change of heart did not increase his compassion for Armenians, nor open his eyes to the moral responsibility that his nation has to ours.  He has not fundamentally changed his beliefs, other than to try to be less caustic in his words.  I am pretty sure ‘he’ is not a single person, but a committee of contributors, and that committee may need to have a meeting to get their story straight.   We need to use our fighting energy wisely and not squander it on a committee designed to annoy us.  I could be wrong…but I don’t think so. 

  501. Boyajian
    You write:
    Ragnar,
    your post to me:

    Again I feel you do not sort out questions of
    honest/dishonest attitude from

    those of true/false opinion. Besides, I read
    McCarthy as I read Dadrian: some ting I agree with and something not.

    Please clarify for me, what is the difference? Do you mean that I do not
    distinguish between an honest question and one expressing doubt because of
    ulterior motives? As you know, your “questioning” makes me uneasy
    Comment:
    the difference is between saying “I disagree” and saying “I don’t trust you”.
    What I have in mind is what I have been saying many times: many of you have a
    tendency to interpret divergent opinions as symptoms of deceit. I do not
    acknowledge that I use deceit. I forward opinions. Sorry if this was not clear
    from my side.
    The Turks
    have a considerable moral debt to the Armenians, as I have said several times.  Actually Talat Pasha concedes that many
    perpetrators were not prosecuted for political reasons. This is, to my
    knowledge, is acknowledgement of criminal responsibility. Turkish spokesmen
    have said that the ittihadists did what they could to secure the relocations of
    Armenians, but I do not accept this. They have the burden of proof that they
    did what they could. The Turks have to admit more and give more. In my dealing
    with this issue this is my bottom line.
     
    Monastras
    The Turkish
    policies at the time went much further than just neutralizing the Armenian
    guerilla movement. Armenians were deported from areas far from the war zones,
    so the aim was more than just countering the guerilla movement.  Further I agree that there are quite many
    scholars who doubt the views of the genocide scholars and the Armenian
    historians. I have counted some  40.
    Gayane
    I  did not read your first post to Robert after
    he told about his brother. I agree that you are more forthcoming in this post.
    My apologies.  But still I react to your
    later posts. I believe you should have reacted differently, not by irony and by
    using the expression “wallah”, this means 
    taking a disparaging view of his religion.
    Gor
    The analysis
    of the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria follows the same logic as the ICTJ reasoning
    applied to the Armenian case. The first question is whether the group is a
    protected group according to the Convention’s definition. Since “Turks in
    Bulgaria” obviously is a subgroup, one might object to their being a protected
    group. But the ICTJ speaks about “Armenians in Eastern Anatolia”, which also is
    a subgroup, sp the same must go for the Turks in Bulgaria.
    Then the
    ICTJ speaks about “acts”.  Has the
    group  been subjected to the type of acts
    mentioned in the definition?  The obvious
    answer is yes in both cases. In both cases perpetrators were “killing members
    of the group”, “causing serious bodily or mental harm”, and “putting people in
    life endangering situations”.
    About the
    intent, the I CTJ  says that the most reasonable
    conclusion to draw is that at least some of the perpetrators understood that
    their actions would lead to the destruction in part or in whole of the group,
    as such, or acted purposely towards this goal and thus had requisite intent.
    Now to my
    mind  this applies to the treatment of
    the Armenians in 1915-16, but it also applies to the Turks in Bulgaria, because
    of the pattern of massacres on Turkish civilians (and also Jewish, by the way),
    which led to people fleeing in panic in autumn and winter time. As said some
    250.000 died som 20-25% of all Turks in Bulgaria.
    So the
    reasoning applied by the ICTJ to the Armenians also applies to the Turks in
    Bulgaria. Your counterarguments, that they were ”occupiers” or “ belligerent party”
    is not valid.

  502.  ‘I am pretty sure ‘he’ is not a single person, but a committee of contributors,…’
    You are pretty right Boyajian. You are not wrong. They are.

  503. Ragnar you write:  “…many of you have a tendency to interpret divergent opinions as symptoms of deceit. I do not acknowledge that I use deceit. I forward opinions. Sorry if this was not clear
    from my side.”
    The problem is that your divergent opinions happen to echo the deceitful propaganda manufactured by Turkey to justify what they did to Armenians as necessary security or defensive measures in response to Armenian insurgency.  Women and children were never a threat to Turks, yet they were targeted for deportation and massacre by the CUP authorities.  Turks have subjected Armenians to such lies and distortions in order to avoid facing justice for almost one hundred years and most Armenians can smell this offensive propaganda coming before it rounds the corner. 

     
    You also write to Monastras:  “Further I agree that there are quite many scholars who doubt the views of the genocide scholars and the Armenian historians.  I have counted some  40.”
    Please tell me how many of these forty are not Turkish or employed by Turkish universities or institutions.  Could you provide the list
     
    And to Gayane:  “I believe you should have reacted differently, not by irony and by using the expression “wallah”, this means taking a disparaging view of his religion.”
    Not sure you got this right.  Didn’t Gayane mean Voila! not wallah.   Or am I wrong?
     
    And finally, I disagree with your assertion that the fate of Bulgarian/Balkan Turks can be used as any kind of justification for what was done to Armenians, regardless of how you interpret the ICTJ findings.  Turks may have suffered in Bulgaria, but not at the hands of the Armenians, and their taste for revenge is not defense for attacking innocent women and children on such a massive and thorough scale.  It is “unmoeglich” or inconceivable that such a suggestion is entertained by educated, humane people.  Only a Turkish apologist would seriously assert such a defense for brutality.

  504. Boyajian: further clarification: you say my questioning makes you uneasy. Needless to say, on these pages I almost always question the points made by Armenians or those supporting the genociode thesis. Now questioning can be taken as harming people if I question what they think is right.  To my mind this need not be so. Many will develop their convictions and be stronger in their convictions, producing better reasons or more integrated emotional attachments to their views by being questioned. While I hope that Armenians will in time share some of my views, I also hope that many of you will be strengthened in your beliefs and convictions. This is an ideal in any serious debate, I believe. In this way, questioning is a good thing, and needless to say is part and parcel of scholarly method.

    Then you ask: dont you question Turks? Go and question Turks! The answer to this is that I do question Turks. My recent trip to Turkey was one long discussion where I expounded my views and questioned their views, even if  they heard me say many things that they agreed with. However, like in my debates with Armenians, the points where I disagreed attracted their attention most, even though they were pretty much intent on being polite.
    In the pages of AW I have also tried to debate with Turks, my comment to Monastras is the last example. I would like to dicuss more with Turks on these pages, but I admit I have not been very sucessful in it. Needless to say I have to ask myself why this is so. Is it because I unconsciously approach the people who are victims in some sense or other, possibly because it makes my own position more secure (this may happen to many who chose to work with the less privileged, like refugees which you maybe remember I do)? Is is because I am asked a lot of question from Armenians which I feel  I should answer so that the disagreement rather than the agreements are constantly being demonstrated in actual writ? Is it because I feel people I disagree with are entitled to a protest, a sign of respect (in my work I see a lot of Norwegians who have a great inhibition against saying unpleasant things to people with victim status in some way or other, e.g. immigrants and refugees, because 1) they are afraid to have the label “racist” thrown at them, or 2) because they know that these people have problems and you dont say bad things to people in trouble even if it is needed (by the way in the management training I do with a psychologist friend we agree that the most needed trait in leaders in human reseouce development os the ability to give feedback which both criticizes shortcomings in a clear way and also supports the person.) You are a psychologist, Boyajian, if you have any advice about how I should do it besides the demand that I should agree with you, I will be grateful.

  505. Ragnar, its a family matter.  After the sustained 100 years of Turkish assault, first through massacre and then through malicious foreign policy, denial and fabrication, that has deprived us of a proper mourning, healing and recovery, Armenians have developed a mistrust for most things Turkish—even when it comes from a non-Turk.  Perhaps we have developed a protectiveness for ourselves and our compatriots that results in a tendency not to criticize each other in public, and to look the other way when deeply felt hurt causes one of us to behave crudely.  We extend this compassion to one another because we know the hurt at the root of it.  You can’t apply the same judgment you hold against paranoid Norwegians who fear the unknown, against Armenians who know their enemy very well.  And again, don’t forget to distinguish disgust and anger against a government and its policies from animosity toward the common Turk.  We do.

  506. Ragnar, our responses and comments are not quite in sync…
     
    Regarding the value of honest criticism for growth from a psychological point of view:  I agree that people learn from this and it can be valuable.  But you miss the point.  Arguing whether or not historians have gotten it right in what they write is not the main problem.  The evidence of the crime is undeniable and the guilt of the CUP government is indisputable.  The details are interesting but not necessary for the pursuit of justice.  Turkey has a debt to us.  I don’t insist you agree with my viewpoint.  I insist that you not help Turkey avoid justice by giving validity to smokescreens.  I ask you to take this interesting academic pursuit up to the tower where it belongs and leave it there for a while.  Help us to simply receive justice.  It seems you are too close to Turks and their sense of being offended by Armenian accusations to understand the damage that their insensitivity to Armenians has done.  You get lost in the details and forget the main question:  Who will pay for this destruction of a people?

  507. Boyajian

    It is a family matter.This is the key sentence.  You never want to listen what we say and what these some 40 people say and How we can call the sequence of the events. regardless of how your family member suffered personally.The truth of the matter is Armenians desperately want to charge Turkey. No matter what the reality is.
    Ragnar
    I will answer your question later as I am rushing now 



  508. Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust’

     This  is the key sentence. And it is an insult to the memory of the victims of the Armenian Genocide.

  509. Monastras writes:  The truth of the matter is Armenians desperately want to charge Turkey. No matter what the reality is.
    Close, but not quite.  We desperately want Turkey to admit its responsibility, apologize and offer reparations for what was lost.  A nation was virtually wiped from its homeland.  This is a crime, not an accident. 

  510. Dear Lolo,belated many thanks for info regarding the 2nd edition of Bernard Lewis’s The Emergence of Modern Turkey, published by Oxford University Press in London where he mentions (p. 356):  “… that ended with the terrible holocaust of 1915, when a  million and a half Armenians perished.”
    I wish Joseph as well could pass me the info on the 1st edition.
     

  511. Monastras writes:  The truth of the matter is Armenians desperately want to charge Turkey. No matter what the reality is.

    You got something else wrong!
    It is wrong to speak of what happened to the Armenians as ‘defeat.’   Your nation’s government turned on its own citizens and targeted them for deportation and destruction.  Yes, there were pockets of rebellion among Armenians who sought freedom from Ottoman oppression, but the vast majority were simple, hard working and INNOCENT, women, children, and elderly who were a threat to no one Your Ottoman ancestors forced all these people from their homes and marched them to the deserts without provisions or protection from attack along the way, confiscating all the property that these people were forced to leave behind.  This was not a civil war!  This was a government gone mad, engaging in a heinous criminal act, under the cover of war, that resulted in the death of over 1.5million people and the virtual elimination from the land of a people who had occupied it throughout historical memory. 
     
    Perhaps you are proud of that?  Your CUP ancestors accomplished what countless other conquerors of the Armenian Highland never did:  Genocide.

  512. boyajian
    no, I dont agree with you. My picture of the road to justice fror Armenians is different from yours. To my mind my input with the book is also a necessary perspective and not an ivory tower pursuit. Maybe you are right and I am wrong, but I dont think so. I will try to answer you more in detail later.

  513. boyajian
    you write
    Ragnar, our responses and comments are not quite in sync…
     
    Regarding the value of honest criticism for growth from a psychological point of view:  I agree that people learn from this and it can be valuable.  But you miss the point.  Arguing whether or not historians have gotten it right in what they write is not the main problem.  The evidence of the crime is undeniable and the guilt of the CUP government is indisputable. 
    comment:
    I assume that when you write  about historians getting it right or not right, and that this is not important, you are talking about unimportant details. Right? I have written several times that this is also my opinion. That is I agree with your formulation. Yes the evidence of the crime is undeniable and the guilt of the CUP government is indisputable. But I disagree that one must not say anything more. If you envisage a discussion with truth-seeking Turks which ends with a majority of Turks agreeing with the above, it totally unrealistic to imagine that details will not  be commented upon, will not be important in this sense. The question will be: What is THE CRIME? Genocide? In what sense? this discussion you probably will never evade if you really discuss with Turks.
    you write:
    The details are interesting but not necessary for the pursuit of justice.  Turkey has a debt to us. 
    comment: What do you mean by “necessary”? I agree if you say that generally speaking the CUP committed a crime, and that it is important to make Turks realize this. But if you believe that it is necessary just to repeat this opinion and not go into details, I disagree. Se above
    you write:
    I don’t insist you agree with my viewpoint.  I insist that you not help Turkey avoid justice by giving validity to smokescreens. 
    comment:  We are maybe not able to discuss in a good way. To my mind, I do not help Turkey to avoid justice. on the contrary. By insisting on untenable arguments you assist Turks to get off the hook. Even If you have a just cause, if you overdo it and use bad arguments, you get into trouble. And I dont give validity to smokescreens as far as I can see. Partly I go into details because I answer questions. Please remember this. I answer questions. Partly I point to instances where Armenians at large have fought with untenable arguments. Remember the discussion on proving genocidal intent in the ittihadists. Remember the disciussion on the Andonian papers. I was the one who insisted that the main message should be that a great crime was committed, and that the Turks have a moral and material debt. It was msheci, if I remember correctly, who asked me to specify what crime.  Whether it was genocide by intent or  crime against humanity is to my mind not so important. The main thing is Turkish responsibility.
    You write:
    I ask you to take this interesting academic pursuit up to the tower where it belongs and leave it there for a while.  Help us to simply receive justice.
    Comment: I totally disagree with you. First and foremost books are important. I have used years discussing with Turks, it is time I write a book. I am not an academician. I left the University, then I reft a research institute to become a consultant. I am a practitioner. I used lot of time to work for human rights in Turkey and in other places. People who fight for something very often write books about it, and they rightly do so to my mind.
     
     
    You write
    It seems you are too close to Turks and their sense of being offended by Armenian accusations to understand the damage that their insensitivity to Armenians has done.  You get lost in the details and forget the main question:  Who will pay for this destruction of a people?
    Comment:
    I have answered this earlier. Please answer my argument: . I partly answer questions which must have detailed answers. Partly I point to instances where I believe, rightly or wrongly, Armenians at large have fought with untenable arguments. This is important isnt it?  Did I ever introduce any details unless prompted by questions? Or what do you have in mind when you say that I u8se to much time with details? Can you give me an example?
    Let us stop here for the time. Do you agree?

  514. “First and foremost books are important. I have used years discussing with Turks, it is time I write a book.”
     
    Have you used years discussing with Armenians or conducting research in Armenian, German, Austrian, Russian, British, French, Swedish, Greek, and the US archives and repositories for your book to be an objective, unbiased, non-Turkic centric account? Have you done any field research outside Turkey? Have you travelled to Armenia instead of gathering information from AW pages? If not, how can you be sure that your book will have any value for understanding the great crime against Armenians, for justice they’re pursuing worldwide, and not just another denialist crap à la McCarthy or Lewy?

  515. “Further I agree that there are quite many scholars who doubt the views of the genocide scholars and the Armenian historians. I have counted some 40.”
     
    How many more genocide scholars, historians, lawyers, anthropologists, ethnographers, Nobel Prize laureates, foreign parliaments, local parliaments, international organizations, professional associations, and human rights groups have you counted that agree unequivocally that Armenians were targeted as a ethnic, national, and religious group in a premeditated and deliberate scheme for exterminating the race? Also, how many in those 40 you’ve counted are not stationed in Turkey, received scholarships or awards or were otherwise funded by the Turkish government or groups to produce denialist and distortionist accounts? Enumerate them, and I’ll be glad to refute them one by one so the world knows how they sold their souls and academic integrity to the Turkish Lira. I’d be glad to do this for the cheap types like Monastras, the author of ‘Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust’ and other Turkish denialists posting on these pages.

  516. Boyajian

    We understand that Turkey is your enemy. Do you always expect your enemy to treat you fair and well? I very much doubt that the Turkish people think that they have a debt to pay to you. Can people be removed from their hometowns or villages? Yes they can be removed including women and children if they pose threat to the national security.The same thing was done in the early 90s in Turkey. Thousands of villages were emptied because the terrorist groups were attacking military outposts or soldiers and finding shelter in these villages and moreover, the authorities couldn’t identified who is guilty who is innocent. The problem was the same in the beginning of the century. You have the wrong information as you say it was only pocket of resistance against oppression. Let’s be honest, It was nationalism . It was a heavy violence carried out against the country in the name of creating Armenia in the Turkish soil(never say the Armenian high land). Revolutionaries were active even in the remote towns. The authorities rightly thought  a general uprising were imminent with the help of the Russian army. Have you ever asked yourself why Armenians were deported but Greeks weren’t deported even though they occupied far more valuable land in the western Turkey and in the black sea region? They were far richer than Armenians.These are Just phony stupid reasons. Is the reason still not clear?

    Ragnar
    Yes some Armenians were deported even though they were far away from the war zone.The Local governors and the army commanders played an important role to make a decision rather than the central CUP. This doesn’t alone show the intention of CUP as I said the local factors had a greater contribution. remember, Cup tried to stop further deportation when they finally decided to ceased the deportation but they couldn’t, for this reason , they issued orders one after another to stop the deportation which means the communication was poor.Revolutionaries created havoc in every part of the country. The support for the Russian army was widespread among the Armenian population. Perhaps the difference became unimportant between Armenians and the Russian army in the eyes of  some local authorities. Therefore we can not rule out that some local authorities might have used this opportunity  to get rid of the root of the local revolutionaries which were the local Armenian communities. But again remember why Greeks weren’t deported from the same areas. You must also  think that why Istanbul, Izmir and Aleppo Armenians were never deported. You must put everything in a big picture and decide. Avery was spot on when he said Turks removed Armenians from the Eastern Anatolia(Avery never say the Armenian High Land) otherwise they were going to go back to Mongolia. What this means is basically they were going to carry on their struggle  until they kick the Turks out.

  517. “The analysis of the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria follows the same logic as the ICTJ reasoning applied to the Armenian case.”
     
    Who conducted this ‘analysis’ and whose ‘logic’ does it follow? Refer us to an organization or an authoritative body of experts, please (spare us from McCarthy, for Christ’s sake). If the atrocities against the Turks in Bulgaria, who represented one of the sides to a war, follows the same ‘logic’ as the ICTJ reasoning applied to the Armenian case, then why these particular atrocities were never granted a resolution by ICTJ as in the case of the genocide against Armenians?
     
    “The first question is whether the group is a protected group according to the Convention’s definition.”
     
    This is not a question at all, because the 1948 UN Convention on Genocide does not give definition of a ‘protected’ group per se. It simply identifies “a national, ethnical, racial or religious group” as a group that the genocide law comes to protect. Therefore, your incessant attempt to juxtapose the case of Armenians in Eastern Anatolia, who clearly represented a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, and Bulgarian Turks, who were a segment of an ethnic party to a war (Ottoman Turkey), is not valid.
     
    In both cases perpetrators were “killing members of the group”, “causing serious bodily or mental harm”, and “putting people in life endangering situations”.
     
    First of all, there were no ‘perpetrators in both cases’ per se. In the Armenian case there clearly was the perpetrator: the government of the Ottoman Turkey vs. its own population. In the case of the Bulgarian Turks, there was no perpetrator, because both Russian troops/Bulgarian freedom-fighters and Ottoman/Bulgarian Turks represented two parties to a war. If you consider a party to a war a perpetrator, then not only Russian troops/Bulgarian volunteers were one, but Ottoman/Bulgarian Turks were the other, too. Both of them represented two warring sides, not perpetrators of massacres of an uninvolved, detached from war zones people.
     
    About the intent, the ICTJ says that the most reasonable conclusion to draw is that at least some of the perpetrators understood that their actions would lead to the destruction in part or in whole of the group, as such, or acted purposely towards this goal and thus had requisite intent.”
     
    Actually, the ICTJ applies four elements to the Armenian case, not just the intent, namely:
    (i) the perpetrator killed one or more persons;
    (ii) such person or persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group; (iii) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and
    (iv) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction.
     
    Out of these four, element (i) does not apply to the Bulgarian Turks at all, because Russian troops/Bulgarian freedom-fighters were not perpetrators of killings (Oxford English Dictionary: [perpetrator]: someone who has committed a crime, or a violent or harmful act); they were parties to formal wars declared and waged by and against Ottoman Turks. Element (iii) also does not apply, because Russian troops/Bulgarian volunteers did not intend to destroy, in whole or in part, the Turkish group. This particular group was affected as part of military actions in which it represented a warring side. Any analysis of the fate of Russians and Bulgarians murdered by the Turks in those wars? Are you concerned with their fate, as much you’re concerned with the fate of Bulgarian Turks? Element (iv) is absolutely irrelevant. There was no manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against the Bulgarian Turks that could itself effect their destruction. Wars and inevitable wartime atrocities cannot constitute a ‘manifest pattern’ by definition.
     
    Your attempts at juxtaposing the two cases—one having occurred during a war in which Turks were a belligerent party and Armenians were not—are laughable. Furthermore, your attempts at finding justification for Ottoman Turkish barbarism against the Armenian people because of the Turks’ wartime losses—in manpower, civilians, and in abandoning the occupied lands in the Balkans—which in no way were caused or remotely assisted, or aggravated by the Armenians is a sheer attestation of Turkish apologism, lacking sober judgment and absolutely unfounded as such.

  518. “Of course Brevik’s actions may also be part of a paranoia which we see in many Norwegians today: the belief that Muslims are taking over the country. Sure this is paranoia.”
     
    And??   If you justify Turks’ barbarism against Armenians as manifestation of paranoia, which Armenians on the whole never caused or aggravated, and overreaction leading to murder, do you justify Brevik’s terrorist actions, too?

  519. Gor,

    So, according to you then, anything written by anyone who researches extensively and presents the facts for what they are, is a “a la crap” denialist. Is that about the jist of what you’re trying to get across? If so, then anything that is anti-Turkish is a well written book by a scholaraly author, while a book that has factual materials in it which may or may not put Turkey into a better light of justice (things that you just don’t want to hear and will not even consider) is simply denialistic crap! Please correct me if I’m wrong here. Also, since you mention a list of Nobel laureates, scholars, lawyers, commissions, etc. as supporting your case of a genocide, then why is it that for the past 20 years, not one of you have ever agreed to having an open forum debate with full media coverage? I have, in other story sections, detailed an excellent format structure as to how this could easily be accomplished. It would be fair and neutral! If you’d like, I’d be more than happy to presnt my plan for a structured and fair debate process. Just let me know.   

  520. When did  ‘Avery’  allegedly  ‘said Turks removed Armenians from the Eastern Anatolia’  ?

    Avery kindly requests Ms. Monsatras to provide the citation (thread, post, date, etc).
    Avery doubts very much that he would have used the made-up artificial term ‘Eastern Anatolia’ in place of the historically accurate and beautiful  term ‘Armenian Highlands’ or ‘Armenian Plateau’ in any of his posts.
    Did I mention that I love using the term Armenian Highlands ? It’s so beautiful and poetic.

    re: ‘It was a heavy violence carried out against the country in the name of creating Armenia in the Turkish soil’ 

    There is no so-called Turkish soil on the Armenian Highlands. 
    Turkish soil is about 3,000 miles East of Armenian Highlands.
    Turkish soil is near their – Turkic  Nomadic Tribes’ –  acknowledged birthplace around Altai Mountains and Mongolian Steppes, which BTW is about 3,000 miles East of the Armenian Highlands.

     

    And Avery further reminds readers that the author of the post that objects to my use of the historically accurate term Armenian Highlands, is an Anti-Armenian Denialist Turk who has said this:

    Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust’ (Monastras, posted @Hurriyet)

  521. Monastras, I am so sorry to see that you are getting more extreme in your views.  Nothing you asserted above justifies the murder of 1.5 million people.  In the end, it is still a crime and Turkey is still guilty.  Are you truly that cold-hearted that you feel no remorse for the death of innocent children?  Is your animosity against Armenians so great that you are unable to see that Turkey made no effort to discern who was a threat and who was not, and treated all Armenians as undesirable trash?  Do you not see the injustice in this?  You point to recent examples of emptying villages as if taking such action is good social policy, not inhumane governmental over-reaching.  This is lawlessness carried out to purge the land and confiscate property, not necessary security measures.  How can you believe such lies?
     

  522. Those who justify Ottoman Genocide against Armenians must read this post.
    In a letter dater the 26th February, 1915, written by Enver Pasha to the Armenian Bishop of Konia, the former says: ” I avail myself of this opportunity to tell you that the Armenian soldiers in the Ottoman Army conscientiously perform their duties in the theatre of war, as I can testify from personal observation. I beg of you to communicate to the Armenian people, whose perfect devotion to the Ottoman Government is well known, the expression of my satisfaction and gratitude.”  Source: Germany-Turkey – and Armenia published in 1917.
                                        London. J. J.
               KELIHER & CO., Ltd.
                                                                       1917.

  523. gor
    I am reading as much as I can. My bibliography is now some 20 pages. The resolutions are mostly very short and do not provide any explanations. And I am hoping to go to Armenia. Since 2007 I have been discussing with Armenians, it provides me with a picture of the thinking of the Diaspora. Mccarthy is very well appraised in the last book by Erik Zurcher, that is his work on demographics. his “Death and Exile” has always been highly appraised. – The logic of ICTJ is a common logic, you are invited to use your own logic to point to why the ICTJ handling of the Armenian case doesnt also cover the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria in 1877-78. Guenter Lewy is too dogmatic, he wants to show that there was no genocide. I want to point to the burden of proof both on the Armenian and the Turkish side. I do not claim to have the truth. Hopefully this will contribute to a better debate. But from my discussions with Armenians I also have advice about how to argue and what to do. And I have criticisms. And I have also communicated with  people I  respect among the Armenian participators on the pages of AW.

  524. Monastras
    Thank you for your post. The idea that it was the valis that relocated Armenians outside of the immediate war zones is completely new to me. I will send you an answer in some time

  525. gor, boyajian, gayane, 
    And my bottom line is that a great crime was committed against the Armenians. The Turks must go into it honestly and offer apologies, and repairs must be made. That is why I show the video of the youths singing in  Sourp Khatch at the end of my lecture and exhort my students to adress Turks about the issue, IN THE MOST ACCURATE WAY

  526. “And my bottom line is that a great crime was committed against the Armenians.”
     
    Yes, we came to know your bottom line, ragnar naess., as we came to know your futile attempts at justifying Ottoman Turkish barbarism against Armenians. Your bottom line is a Turk-skewed half-truth. Even in a sentence above you don’t have balls to acknowledge that every crime has its specific denomination. Therefore, a generic “great crime” must be called by its proper name: the genocide.

  527. Sorry, Robert,    I have a difficulty understanding your bizarre English and the idea behind it. Could you ask someone with better command in English to help you rephrase your post?

  528. But from my discussions with Armenians I also have advice about how to argue and what to do’
     
     
    Really now (!): Armenians need advice from a Anti-Armenian Turcophile on how to argue and what to do ?
    Lord have mercy: the breathtaking self-important display of  arrogant superiority, wrapped in layers conceit,  is just dripping from the pages: ‘…advice about how to argue and what to do’   ?
    I mean, if there is a better sample of the patronizing attitude of this Turcophile  individual towards Armenians, I’d like to see it.
    What’s next: “PM Erdogan gives valuable  advice  to Armenians on how to go about getting the Armenian Genocide recognized by Turkey” ?
     
    It shouldn’t be surprising though coming from someone who has called Armenian posters here ‘inbreds’  and has referred to our murdered ancestors using language normally reserved for referring  to garbage or detritus  – ‘disposed of’.
     
     
    What is surprising to me is the infinite patience shown by some of our magnanimous compatriots towards this individual.

  529. Ragnar, I don’t have the luxury of time to address each of your points today, but I am glad to know we agree:
    “And my bottom line is that a great crime was committed against the Armenians. The Turks must go into it honestly and offer apologies, and repairs must be made. “
    You and I (and others) have gone around in circles for some time now, which is confusing, since we seem to have the same bottom line.  Where exactly do we diverge?  Can you please list concisely what you think I don’t get and your main complaint with Armenians.    Sometimes I have trouble following your points.
     
    Briefly, I want to mention that I don’t object to the idea of you writing a book.  I don’t know how to be more clear with you about this.  I simply have a problem with you buying the phony Turkish lokhum and treating it as if it is legitimate, and consequently helping them to avoid justice.  I look to fair minded, human rights activists like yourself to recognize the travesty, not only of the genocide, but also of its long denial.  The denial must be addressed and disputed each time it occurs.  It is an evil in and of itself.  And when you entertain arguments designed to blame the victim, you are allowing yourself to get too close to that evil.  That is my issue with you.  What is debatable here?   Does Turkey have a debt to pay or not?   Do we really have to play this game of polite appeasement to those who insist on living in denial of a terrible crime.  I can only tell you that it sickens me at the deepest level to hear these lies and distortions and hear otherwise humane and moral Turks turn a blind eye to the tragedy that befell the Armenians.  
    More later…

  530. ragnar naess,    you can read secondary sources as much as you can, but, as you may or may not know as a practitioner, main building blocks for learning about and interpreting the past are not just secondary sources, but primary and visual sources, first and foremost. Of these, primary sources are firsthand of historical events or issues. Thus, my question: have you ever examined the primary sources existing in the Armenian, German, Austrian, Russian, British, French, Swedish, Greek, and the US archives and manuscript repositories? Have you done an absolutely necessary for any respectable scholarly account fieldwork in the geographic area of your research interest? From your response I understand that you neither worked in the archives nor ever visited Armenia or Armenian genocide research centers in the US, UK, and elsewhere to get to know the survivor accounts or eyewitness accounts. A ‘picture of the thinking of the Diaspora’ is important, but it is not a historical category per se. Rather, it is a psychological category.
     
    Please don’t insult my intelligence by your remarks re: Justin McCarthy. How come that the only scholars that you think are ‘very well appraised’ (same phrase was used for Caroline Finkel) are those who are considered genocide deniers? It only confirms that, based on your views on the Armenian genocide, they are your soul mates, however, in the real academic world ‘McCarthy and Denialists, Co.’ is widely described as a scholar on the Turkish side of the debate. Because his Death and Exile denies the genocidal nature of the Armenian massacres and forced deportations, he has often faced harsh criticism by many other scholars who have characterized his views as genocide denial. If you were able to look at McCarthy’s views disinterestedly, which I know you can’t, you’d laugh at his main idea that mass murders of the Armenians were part of a civil war(?!), triggered by World War I(?!), in which equally(?!) large numbers of Armenians and non-Armenians died. Many respectable scholars consider McCarthy’s views a child babblement. Do you really consider this denier, who served in the Peace Corps in Turkey in the 1960s, taught at Middle East Technical University and Ankara University and later received an honorary doctorate from Boğaziçi University, and is a board member of, and received grants from, the Institute of Turkish Studies, an unbiased scholar? Would a truly unbiased scholar lend support to the Assembly of Turkish American Associations, which led an effort to defeat recognition of the Armenian genocide by the US House of Representatives in 1985?
     
    McCarthy’s Death and Exile has always been the subject of criticism from book reviewers and genocide scholars. According to Israeli historian Yair Auron, McCarthy, in tandem with Heath Lowry, Bernard Lewis’ successor, leads the list of deniers of the Armenian genocide. He has been accused by Colin Imber, the author of The Ottoman Empire, 1300-1650, of following a Turkish nationalistic agenda. McCarthy uses arguments similar to those found in Jewish Holocaust denial. Historian Mark Mazower considers McCarthy’s sources and, in particular, his statistics to be far less balanced than those of many other historians working in the area.
     
    I don’t know about Erik-Jan Zürcher’s appraisal of McCarthy’s work on demographics, but I know that Zürcher has always pointed to the existence of many corroborating documents supporting the Andonian Telegrams assertion of core involvement and premeditation of the mass killings by the central Ittihadist members. This is fundamentally opposite to what McCarthy bloviates in Death and Exile that positions Zürcher far from the numerically insignificant camp of ‘scholars’ on the Turkish side of the debate.
     
    Also, the notion of the burden of proof is virtually alien to Armenians. We don’t need to prove to ourselves that we, as a people, were mass exterminated. It is the same as saying to the Jews that they have ‘the burden of proof’ that they were killed en masse in the gas chambers.
    Based on your views on these pages and those expressed during a discussion with your BFF McCarthy at Utah, as well as serious breach in your research on primary sources and non-existence of fieldwork, I’m afraid your work may be just another denialist account, positioning you as Number 41 in the list of denialists who doubt the views of the majority of genocide scholars and the Armenian historians, that you have counted. Such an imperfect account cannot, by definition, contribute to a ‘better debate’. BTW, you seem to have missed the train: Armenians and the increasing number of various foreign  bodies have already passed the debate stage. There are new realities on the ground.

  531. Since an inquiry of mine was ‘very politely’—in an untypically Nordic European, but rather typically Turkish way—left unanswered, I’m compelled to repeat it.
     
    ragnar naess,  you admitted that “of course Brevik’s actions may also be part of a paranoia which we see in many Norwegians today: the belief that Muslims are taking over the country. Sure this is paranoia.”

    And??…   If you justify Ottoman Turks’ barbarism against Armenians as a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction, leading to murder, in which Armenians—in their prevailing majority—never figured in causing or stirring up being far from the war zones, do you justify Brevik’s terrorist acts, too?

  532. Oh boy oh boy… when Gayane has been away and Robert and them company are out to play… well i am hurt.. i missed all the fun.. but no worries.. i am here now.. :)

    Ok.. we will start with Ragnar…

    Ragnar… you stated in your September 2nd post

    Gayane
    I  did not read your first post to Robert after
    he told about his brother. I agree that you are more forthcoming in this post.
    My apologies.  

    My comment: Apology not accepted.  This is exactly what you do Ragnar…. YOU select what you want to select to present to the group but in reality you neglect to acknowledge the entire text… THIS my friend shows how manipulative you are… YOU could have read the entire thread; which clearly had MY comments right AFTER Robert’s in the same discussion forum.. but you did not.. so you can keep your apology … I do not accept..

    But still I react to your
    later posts.
    My comment: I don’t really care whether or not you react or do not react

    I believe you should have reacted differently, not by irony and by
    using the expression “wallah”, this means 
    taking a disparaging view of his religion.– 

    My comment:
    Ragnar.. not only you are absolutely wrong in your observation but you also confirmed how manipulative (unless it is pure ignorance or stupidity) you can be….I personally DENY any relation my word has to Robert’s religion (no matter how much I disagree with that religion…) … PLEASE do me a favor and read below… Even with the misspelling of the word (Boyajian thank you for providing the correct spelling of the word to Ragnar and clarifying for him what it truly meant because apparently he was too disturbed by my post)…one can clearly make out the meaning of the word “whallaaaaaaaaaa…” NOT “wallah” as you referred to it Ragnar.. (two different spelling and two different meaning).. but then again, YOU yet AGAIN omitted my entire sentence did not you??? well I am providing it to you…..pure evil on your part..
    Gayane
    August 28, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Ahhhhh Robert.. i was wondering when you will come back to your real senses…and whallaaaaa… you did.. guess it is hard to break old habbits…

    Ragnar it seems to me that you hang on to my every word and try to do everything to make sure I look like someone I am not. at every turn… don’t you?? you take what you want from what I write and turn the situation where I come off atagonistic and insensitive… THAT my friend is false defamation of my character and I absolutely forbid you from doing so going forward… I am going an extra step further.. I ask you to apologize to me right now for falsified information about me on these public pages because you voluntariliy took upon yourself to defend Robert and them denialists pack by using partial and non-related words to your advatange as well as to hurt my credibility on our own pages… you HAVE NO RIGHT to take my words and use it against ME without proper quotations and with their full context… only those with mean streak and evil agenda would do something like that…. SHAME ON YOU RAGNAR…

    Gayane

  533. Monastras– don’t you have any shame?????  

    You said:
    You never want to listen what we say and what these some 40 people say and How we can call the sequence of the events. regardless of how your family member suffered personally.The truth of the matter is Armenians desperately want to charge Turkey. No matter what the reality is.

    My comment: Well did you listen to what we have asked of you numerous times??? I am guessing NOT because my friend Avery would not have pointed in his September 3rd post the fact that you have insulted the memory of my ancestors with this insensitive statement written by you on your Turkish discussion forum…see below

    {Guest – Monastras
    2011-05-16 16:38:37 Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust.}
    (posted @Hurriyet)

    So until you fess up or deny such an insensitive and Anti-Armenian statement, everything and anything you say will be NULLED and will be thrown out …. the end…

    Thank you

    Gayane

  534. Gor jan you said: Have you used years discussing with Armenians or conducting research in Armenian, German, Austrian, Russian, British, French, Swedish, Greek, and the US archives and repositories for your book to be an objective, unbiased, non-Turkic centric account? Have you done any field research outside Turkey? Have you travelled to Armenia instead of gathering information from AW pages? If not, how can you be sure that your book will have any value for understanding the great crime against Armenians, for justice they’re pursuing worldwide, and not just another denialist crap à la McCarthy or Lewy?

    WELL SAID my friend.. Well said…..just so that you know…we have asked Ragnar the same thing many times over but his response has always been vague, nonconclusive and tend to always go in tangents vs having answered with direct sponses….just like he did in his September 5th post

    I am reading as much as I can. My bibliography is now some 20 pages. The resolutions are mostly very short and do not provide any explanations. And I am hoping to go to Armenia. Since 2007 I have been discussing with Armenians, it provides me with a picture of the thinking of the Diaspora.
    OR this:

    I want to point to the burden of proof both on the Armenian and the Turkish side. I do not claim to have the truth. Hopefully this will contribute to a better debate. But from my discussions with Armenians I also have advice about how to argue and what to do. And I have criticisms. And I have also communicated with  people I  respect among the Armenian participators on the pages of AW.”


  535. Monastras– you are the epitomy of neo-nationlist and hard core denialist… you don’t even hide it and are so proud of it too…. you are a sad sad individual…

    Robert- same goes to you.. .now which Robert wrote your comment??? I am assuming 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th… ect

  536. Ragnar you said:

    ragnar naess
    September 5, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    gor, boyajian, gayane, 
    And my bottom line is that a great crime was committed against the Armenians. The Turks must go into it honestly and offer apologies, and repairs must be made. That is why I show the video of the youths singing in  Sourp Khatch at the end of my lecture and exhort my students to adress Turks about the issue, IN THE MOST ACCURATE WAY

    My comment: so you believe showing a video that is not done or written or filmed by you to Turks will fix the issue???? No sir.. .the issue will not be fixed unless you fix within… so you sharing things like this, you think you will make us fall on your feet to say thank you??? to believe you???? you are not serious are you??  it is not about what you try or want to do.. it is about what NEEDS TO happen in your head and heart if you want to change Turks minds….

    Seriously.. why do we even bother???

    G

  537. gor
    thank you for your patience. …and the bottom line is genocide, you write. Yes, I read your words, but we are far beyond this point now. I explained many times what I have in mind. I will come back to you. But I believe you have not gotten into the question of what kind of reasoning the ICTJ exhibits, and what this implies if you apply it to other examples of mass killings and destruction of ethno-religious communities, or subsections of such communities. Besides, you never commented on the fate of the Circassians  

  538. gor

    earlier I have said that Turkish civilians in Bulgaria in 1977-78 were not belligerent parties. They were civilians. Unless you comment on this I see no reason to comment on your post. If we decide this question of the status of the Turkish-Bulgarian villagers we can go on. But anyhow thank you for your comment.  

  539. gayane
    good to hear from you, and to see that you are fit for fight. I will answer more later, but now only this: no, I have not gone into “the archives” apart from browsing through some German archives which are on the net. To my mind scholars go into archives with definite questions, or hunches or hypotheses. I hope to go into archives on two very definite questions, that relate to the question of genocidal intent in the upper echelons of the CUP. I will come back to the question of how you related to Robert. 

  540. Boyajian

    good that we agree on something. But I believe that even if people are united in the belief in some words, a formula, they may interpret it/them in different ways. I will return to this. About criticisms of Armenians on the pages of AW, let us take one question at the time. My point number one: I experience Armenians in the AW as too negative in their view of the Ottoman Empire as a whole. I gave some examples  recently.  This is in line wioth what Karekin has been saying. I believe this negative view is both incorrect, and also not conducive to good dialogue with truth-seeking Turks.

  541. Let’s not kid ourselves, I know full well that 600 years of Ottoman rule on top of 300 of Seljuk and 200 of Arab was not all fun and games. No one enjoys being conquered and ruled by others….just ask any Afghani.  However, there were some definite benefits for Armenians during that timeframe.  However, that’s not the question, which really should be how does Turkey rectify the huge amount of human and historic damage done to the Armenian world of Asia Minor from 1915  onward?  They are solely responsible.  One step will be acknowledgement and recognition, next will be apology, and then the return of properties or compensation (interestingly, this has started in a small way) and then perhaps an invitation to diasporan Armenians to come to their homeland, at the very least, for a visit.  In most cases, they will see ruins of their former homeland and their ancestor’s lives, but if the government can finally allow the word ‘Armenian’ to be used, in the same way the Spanish use the word Arab at historic monuments in Spain, Armenians will feel and Turks will see, the massive contribution they made to that land over the last 4000+ years.  It has been denigrated long enough. If Erdogan is serious, the time for a fundamental change is now, not later.  As a famous celeb once said, ‘Just do it’!!!  
      

  542. No, thank you for your patience, ragnar naess.    And the bottom line, I write, is genocide, yes, otherwise the world governments would have kept acknowledging burglary that Turks committed against Armenians. I could care less what you personally have explained as to what you have in mind with regard to the Turkish crime, but it is universally accepted that crimes should have their specific denominations. For instance: ‘theft’, ‘burglary’, ‘rape’, ‘murder’, ‘genocide’. I take the reasoning of the ICTJ as applicable to a specific crime committed against a specific people. Neither I nor you are in a position to freely, at will, apply it to other examples of mass killings and destruction of ethno-religious communities, or subsections of such communities. Had such examples represented a genocidal extermination based on ICTJ’s four points, I see no reason why ICTJ wouldn’t have applied them to other similar cases.
     
    Earlier I have concurred that Turkish civilians in Bulgaria in 1877-78 were not belligerent parties, but they were civilians, I commented more than once, who ethnically represented a belligerent party: Ottoman Turkey, waging wars with another belligerent party that had its own civilian population. As in any wartime situation throughout the history of the mankind, as sadly as it may be, civilians, ethnically belonging to one of the belligerent parties, do suffer atrocities in war situations. I offered, I believe, not mentally burdensome comparison with the situation of the Ottoman Armenians who were slaughtered en masse on their government’s orders while not being a civilian segment of any belligerent party. Besides, you never commented if you justify Anders Brevik’s killings of innocent, uninvolved people just as you justify Ottoman Turks’ barbarism against innocent, uninvolved Armenians as a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction leading to murder. Whenever you answer this and other questions you were asked above, I’d gladly comment on the Circassians.

  543. “Armenians [are] too negative in their view of the Ottoman Empire as a whole.”  Now, ragnar naess,    are you mocking us? An indigenous people lived for millennia on their native lands when warrior nomads appeared, then colonized them, and then made them second-class millet. Then colonizers physically exterminated this people and turkified traces of their rich cultural legacy. What views, if not too negative, do you expect Armenians to have after being oppressed that led to massacres and genocide? I believe it was Avery who put it very well: even if Armenians—mostly Constantinople-based, not rural Armenians who were the majority—were able to do relatively well while being oppressed, they did this despite the Turks, not because of the Turks.

  544. ragnar, you write quote:
    I hope to go into archives on two very definite questions, that relate to the question of genocidal intent in the upper echelons of the CUP Unquote
    If you are chasing this subject seriously enough you must go to the Ottoman archives (vipers nest) & make your research there & see what is available & what is not.It is very well documented what has evaporated.
    A former Turkish ambassador by the name of Zeki Kuneralp, had a different explanation, according to him “The liabilities of not publishing the historical documents outweigh the advantages.”
     

  545. VTiger

    thank you for your comment. I note that Taner Akcam holds that the existing Ottoman archives, that is those that catalogued and opened to historians are sufficient to prove his points. 

    gor

    Are you sure you do not harbour a romantic projection of peaceful Armenian millennia? By the way,  we adressed the question of whether Turkish villagers (men,women, old people and children) were civilians or belligerents, didnt we?      

      

  546. Ragnar— the bottom line is you are someone who is a hidden denialist…. so why don’t you just come out (even though you showed your true colors on numerious occasions) and admit YOU love and support the denialists with everything you got…. YOU contribute to the White Genocide by emerging yourself in small and unnecessary information (for what??? to blow smoke at everyone’s face??) , YOU are someone who will do evil at any cost (speaking from experience… and i am referring to your posts), YOU will hide behind some line of undone actions to show your fakeness, YOU are not someone we trust, YOU are someone who is too close to Turks/Turkey, YOU are someone who will take one’s word and twist it to your advantage, YOU will never be someone we will believe… end of story….

    and you still owe me an apology for twisting my words and making me look like someone I am not… talk about hatred toward someone… don’t you think you are being two faced here???

    Until you do the research as Gor suggested, you will not be taken as someone with credibility to speak intelligently about the OTTOMAN TURKS GENOCIDE AGAINST EASTERN AND WESTERN ARMENIANS… period….but we very well know what you will continue to do… continue reading and practicing the voodoo that the Turkish govt is provided…

    Gayane

  547. Gor jan– thank you for your patient with Ragnar.. thank you for always providing strong and valid facts …..Ragnar ust does not see the fact that he is in deep mud.. and he tries so hard to get out by throwing posts just the heck of it… amazing that he is still have the audocity to open his mouth after such embarassing exposure on how manipulative and evil he can be…

  548. Ragnar— you said

    good to hear from you, and to see that you are fit for fight

    Spare me your welcome… also, why would you say fit for fight??? why would YOU assume that when I am posting on these pages, it is automatically a fight between you and I…… has it EVERY occured to you that when I post, I want to refute all your lies and show the world that no matter how you approach the issue of me being insensitive or inappropriate, it will never achieve its goal?? and in order to do that, i will comment and point out your shortcommings and obsession to the denialists….. if you are stipulating my presence on these pages stirs up a fight, then it is your problem but please use your words wisely RAGNAR because you are beginning to annoy alot of people…. and frankly I am tired of you and your mafisto to the world as the historian and humanitarian.. (fake that is)…

    Gayane

  549. yes, ragnar naess,     we did address the question of whether Turkish villagers (men, women, old people and children) were civilians or belligerents, but the conclusions we drew were different, in case you didn’t notice. To me, the fates of civilians, who suffered atrocities in a war because ethnically they were a segment of a belligerent party and civilians who suffered genocidal extermination ethnically not being a segment of a belligerent party, are obviously different. Turkophiles, however, tend to bring up the two unmatched fates in an attempt to juxtapose them to show that Bulgarian Turks, too, suffered genocidal extermination. No, they didn’t. As in any war situation in the history of the mankind, as sadly as it may be, civilians, ethnically belonging to one of the belligerent parties, do suffer atrocities. War atrocities against the civilians and a deliberate genocidal annihilation of civilians belonging to a particular national, ethnic, and religious group by their government, with the intent to destroy them as a race, are divergently different and incomparable instances. It is idiotic to try to justify the genocide of the Armenians in 1915-23 by the war atrocities that Bulgarian Turks suffered in the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78 or in the First Balkan War of 1912-13. In neither of those wars did the Armenians loom on the horizon. By the way, you didn’t answer if you justify Brevik’s killings of uninvolved people just as you justify Ottoman Turks’ genocide of uninvolved Armenians as a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction leading to murder, did you?

  550. Ragnar, you apparently have little understanding of the effect of denial of a heinous crime on the victims of that crime.  If you had more understanding you would not be so quick to criticize Armenians for their sometimes harsh appraisal of Turkey and the Ottomans.  I can’t imagine that you can write a book of significance without looking into this, because the denial is the equally heinous second phase of the original crime of genocide.  You seem to lack the awareness that for many Armenians the genocide has not ended because now after our lands were stolen and our ancestors murdered, our history has been denied and is being erased.  This is an assault on identity.    Do you deny a person or nation’s right to defend themselves from such attacks?

  551. ‘Voila,’ Gayane is back and madder than ever!
     
    Couldn’t agree more with you Gor.  I am so impressed by your diligence and knowledge.  I learn so much from you.
     
    Ragnar, I am still hoping for a concise statement from you regarding what you think Armenians are missing or getting wrong about Turks.  Please state it.  Fill in these blanks if you like:
     
    1.  What Armenians fail to understand about the genocide is______________________________ .
    2.  Armenians were wronged and deserve acknowledgment but ___________________________.
    3.  Armenians can enhance their dialogue with Turks by_________________________________.
    4.  Armenians deserve compensation for their losses in the form of________________________.
    5.  What Turks don’t understand about Armenians is___________________________________.
    6.  Turks deny the genocide because_______________________________________________.
    7.  I am writing a book about the Armenian genocide from the point of view of ______________.
    8.  What I hope to accomplish with my book is________________________________________.
     
    I was wondering, does anyone else here have that deja vu feeling?  I feel like I am on a merry-go-round viewing the same scene over and over again.
     

  552. Or another suggestion for him, Boyajian.   ragnar naess,  you stated on several occasions that you’re writing a book about the Armenian genocide. At one time you said as a ‘junior historian’, at another as a ‘practitioner’. Whatever capacity you’re writing the book in, I assume you’ve gone far beyond Introduction and Bibliography, and are already composing chapters of it. If so, and if no publishing rights are jeopardized, would it be possible to share the Introduction part with us? I believe this will give us enough grounds to conclude once and for all as to what objective you wish to accomplish with your book.

  553. I concur Gor jan.. I would love to see that introduction as well…good point…

    Boyajian jan–  can’t express my frustration with this man anymore.. he is truly pushing my buttons.. but it is ok.. let him.. he will get the same back…Great break down for Ragnar.. I am assuming he needs everything chewed and fed to him if he is going to expose himself to the world.. either a true denialist, true Turkophile, or simply a confused man…

    Oh.. and you are very right about merry go around… because as we have experienced the same thing over again with Ragnar in the past, I am not surprised at all that he is doing the same thing now.. this is his amo… this is what he is set to do.. confuse EVERYHING and anyone … it is his game… his signature… we know it and know it well… you wait and see… a bit more of pushing back, he will come up with an excuse to leave these pages… he will dissapear and then come back with the same logic and ammunition.. don’t know why but that is what I feel…

    Gayane     

  554. Gayane

    I am sorry if you experience my remarks as lack of respect. However, I also suggest you look into the way you formulate yourself sometimes.

    gor

    I believe the feeling of merry go-round partly is a result of the fact that we never conclude TOGETHER on the single facts or assertions we discuss. We should decide what we agree on and what we do not agree on regarding the single points. I have suggested that you and I conclude the discussion of whether Turkish villagers in Bulgaria in 1877-78 (women, older, people, children and also men not inrolled in the Ottoman army) were belligerents or civilians who were protected by the ordinary laws of war. As said earlier, I find it pointless to go on unless we can agree on this. 

    Of course one can ask what ios the relevance of this for the question of the Armenian Genocide. I can explain my views on this, but I’d like us to conclude the first point first.

    Boyajian

    thank you for your constructive questions. I will answer as soon as I can 
        

               

  555. ragnar neass,    the feeling of merry go-round was expressed by boyajian, not me. As for concluding on single facts or assertions together, you do understand, I hope, that we’d be most likely unable to do so jointly because you use irrelevant facts or assertions as excuses for Turkish genocide of the Armenians. Not only is this an unscholarly approach, but it is also a disreputable behavior on the personal level. Therefore, I can only unilaterally conclude the discussion of whether Turks in Bulgaria in the 1877-78 war were belligerents or civilians. This conclusion was made clear to you on many occasions; so many that other posters are having déjà vu and feel they are on a merry-go-round.
     
    Although the ordinary laws of war must theoretically protect the civilians, in no war waged in the history of the mankind was the civilian segment of a belligerent party left unharmed. But to compare atrocities suffered by the civilian segment of a party to a war with the deliberate genocidal extermination of civilians as a race in a no-war situation by their own government is unintelligent and absurd. Turkish villagers in Bulgaria in the 1877-78 war waged between Russians and Turks represented a co-ethnic civilian segment of a belligerent party: Ottoman Turkey. Therefore, as happens in any war waged by the humans, these civilians suffered atrocities. Was it a genocidal extermination of the Turks as a race, as in the case of the Armenians? No, it certainly wasn’t. That’s why ICTJ resolution refers to the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia, not the Bulgarian Turks. Whatever Turks suffered in the hands of other peoples (not to mention how much sufferings Ottoman Turks themselves brought to the peoples of Asia Minor, Middle East, and Europe) is absolutely irrelevant to the Armenian question, because Armenians were not the ones who inflicted pain or posed a threat for the Turks.
     
    Now, do you wish to give tit for tat and unilaterally conclude on the assertion you’ve made earlier on paranoia and overreaction that could lead to murder? You justify Ottoman Turks’ genocidal extermination of innocent Armenian civilians as a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction that leads to murder. You admitted that Anders Brevik’s terrorist killings of innocent Norwegian civilians, too, were a manifestation of paranoia and overreaction that leads to murder. Do you justify them?

  556. The reason most civilized countries have abolished the death penalty is that there always exists the danger an innocent person might be executed by mistake, and this would constitute a crime committed by the state.  It would be murder. So, entire governments *unfortunately, not the US)  have stopped the practice in order to avoid such an event.  The reason the CUP approach to its Ottoman Armenian citizens was criminal at the state level is that in an effort to root out the few agitators, it condemned to death more than a million non-combatants of a specific ethnic group, and destroyed an entire culture on its own land. It the holocaust was a crime, then the Armenian genocide as carried out by the CUP was exponentially worse. This cannot be denied. Despite the causes and the sad outcomes, we need to ask what will be done in the future?  Will this discussion take place inside Turkey?  Maybe it already is?  Returning properties to the Armenian community is a start, a baby step, but where will this lead?  If anything, this should be encouraged, not as the end-all solution, but as a first step in the right direction. Yes, there is a long way to go…no question, but often the best way to motivate any reluctant party to do the right thing is to encourage good behavior, rather criticize it.  Plus, any positive steps need to be cut in stone, so there can be no turning back and they can be built on and expanded over time.

      

          

  557. Ragnar- like I said.. YOU lost your priviladges to speak or address me in any way, shape or form because you have been caught red handed and were called out.. so there is no room to wiggle yourself out of this one… no matter how much you twist things around to make things sound differently than it is….. and like I said keep your “sorries’ because no one is interested…

    Have a nice confused day sir 

  558. Monastras
    You write: Yes
    some Armenians were deported even though they were far away from the war
    zone.The Local governors and the army commanders played an important role to
    make a decision rather than the central CUP. This doesn’t alone show the
    intention of CUP as I said the local factors had a greater contribution.
    remember, Cup tried to stop further deportation when they finally decided to
    ceased the deportation but they couldn’t, for this reason , they issued orders
    one after another to stop the deportation which means the communication was
    poor.
    I have been
    looking at several important sources, mainly those by Turkish authors who
    espouse the general Turkish view, and I can nowhere find any references or
    indirect allusions to this two-stage relocation process: 1) deportation from
    the war zones initiated by “central CUP”, and 2) from other areas initiated by
    local governors and army commanders, in spite of decisions on the part of “Central
    CUP”.
    I have
    looked at halacoglu’s article “The realities behind the relocation” (“the
    Armenians in the late Ottoman Period”, Turkish historical association 2001),
    and there is no mention of this.In the 1000 page work “Osmanli belgelerinde
    Ermenilerin sevk ve iskani” (the relocation and resettlement of the Armenians
    in Ottoman documents) published by the prime ministry archives in 2007, there
    are on the contrary a number of references about deportations from places like
    Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
    any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
    against the government.  For instance the
    entry 197 – letter of September 17, 1915 from local authorities to the ministry
    of interior, states that the Armenians of Eskishehir and the environs have been
    deported.  But there is nowhere in these
    documents, as far as I can see (there are short summaries in modern Turkish for
    each letter, which is given in Ottoman, both transcripted and in facsimile of
    the original) any traces of conflict between local leaders and the government.  But the book contains a number of the letters
    about preventing atrocities and massacres of Armenians, which Turkish
    historians regularly provide to “prove” that there was no official intention of
    massacre. Whatever one believes about this, a contribution like that of
    Halacoglu does not contain any references to the large number of testimonies of
    Germans, Swiss, Austrian and US citizens, let alone all the testimonies of Armenian
    survivors who give the same picture, that is all those who saw the deportation
    at close range, and concluded that the only reasonable explanation for the
    policies was that the government had embarked upon a policy of extermination.
    The lack of references to this literature makes articles like that of Halacoglu
    worthless as documentation. So the appraisal of the CUP policies in the face of
    the accusations of genocide must start with a sober appraisal of all those who  witnessed the events, not only refer to those
    that support the received Turkish version.

  559. Is it not ironic that  two Anti-Armenian AG Denialists are using a forum provided by an Armenian online weekly to debate and attempt to demonstrate which one of them is a more sophisticated and dedicated denialist. 

    I don’t know if we should be flattered or disgusted.

  560. Is it not ironic that an anti-turkish poster are able post the below comment to a conservative turkish paper? In my opinion, definitely not

    Avery , 07 September 2011 , 19:16

    In addition to returning confiscated Armenian properties, the State of Turkey should start planning and putting aside funds to compensate the Armenian people for the extermination of 2 Million Armenians (1895-1923), and the return of occupied Western Armenia and Cilcia to their rightful owners – Armenians. After that Turks and Armenians can live in peace as good neighbors. After all we have so much in common. It is unfortunate that Seljuk Turks decided to leave their ancestral homelands around Altai Mountains and invade the Armenian Highlands about 1,000 years ago, thus displacing the indigenous Armenians who had lived there for 4,000 years by that time. However, we need to move forward. Time for Turks to pay the debts of their predecessors ? since the modern State of Turkey assumed all the liabilities and debts of the Ottoman Empire when it assumed all its assets, both liquid and illiquid, including real estate(today’s zaman)

  561. My post above @TodaysZaman was in response to one by a Turk familiar to AW readers. Here is what he said:
     [necati , 06 September 2011 , 01:22 returning the properties of non-Muslims without agreement on returning ottoman properties in Europea , Armenia , Iraq, syria, Africa is a betrayal to martyies who sacrified their lives from 1000 years ago.]
     
    Here is the link: http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-255732-on-the-law-to-return-the-property-of-non-muslims-and-yesterday.html
     
    Right –  “martyrs” who “sacrificed” their lives  invading the lands of others; exterminating unarmed Armenian civilians, women, children, babies.
     
     
    And as to being Anti-Armenian vs. Anti-Turkish: There is no moral equivalency in being a Denialist Anti-Armenian and Anti-Turkish.
    Denying the Armenian Genocide, as Ms. Monstras has done, is not equivalent to Avery requesting that the State of Turkey return  ill-gotten properties to their rightful owners.
     
    If that makes me Anti-Turkish, then I am Anti-Turkish.
    And for the record, I hereby re-affirm and stand by every word in my post that Ms. Monastras so kindly pasted above.
     
    And finally, I invite Turk readers to read my post at the end of this article:
    http://www.todayszaman.com/news-256052-woman-attacked-by-deceased-husbands-family-while-under-police-protection.html
    The first and only post at the time, BTW, and by an Anti-Turkish Armenian at that.

  562. Monastras,     And??  What is it that does not correspond to the historical reality and to the demand for justice for an exterminated race that caught your eye in Avery’ comment in Today’s Zaman?

  563. No I am not criticizing Avery’s comment. My point is If he is allowed to make such comment even though the paper he made comment has exactly the opposite view. Why should’t we allow to exchange our opinions on these pages? 

    I have never been Anti-Armenian. My opinion and Armenians opinion doesn’t have to match. I and my sister have have completely different opinion in many fields. I even had a chance to work with an Armenian colleque, when I was working for a Turkish company abroad. I always defended him against the boss. He did the same for me so I personally haven’t promoted Anti-Armenianism. But I will of course express my view freely and try to be fair.  
     

  564. Yes I have read the news. It is not unusual to hear such events in Turkey. However, most of the forced marriages, honor killings, polygamy occur in the south Eastern Turkey. When community leaders, Journalists etc warn the Kurdish community, They get angry.Unfortunately, they are still a tribal community, However, when they migrate to the other areas, they easily become part of the wider society.

  565. I posted this answer in the Daily Zaman:
    Necati
    nothing stops Turkey or Turks from asking compensation for lost property or other damage incurred during the loss of the former Ottoman territories. However, from the actual actions we see that the Armenians for many years have been knocking on the doors all over the world to get recognition of the genocide, reparations and even concessions of territory. So it is reasonable that Turkey should go into this with an open mind, provide answers, and certainly in a better way than the standard answers from Turkish scholarship and politicians have shown so far. For Turks to answer Armenian claims with their own claims to third parties is not an answer that is in line with justice or jurisprudence

  566. Monastras, Avery is not anti-Turkish.  Like most Armenians, he is anti-Turkish lies and pro-justice.
    If you are for lies and against justice, than we have a problem.  Otherwise, I see no issue between you, a Turk and we Armenians.  You need to open your mind to the truth and recognize that Armenians only want the justice they deserve for what was brutally taken from them by your ancestors.  Once this is done, I have no doubt, like Avery said, that we can live in peace and mutual respect.

  567. I thank Ragnar for his support to Armenians in his comment above.
    Both Necati and Ragnar are right.  Anyone who has had something unlawfully taken from them has the right to appeal to a court for justice.   Further, Ragnar is correct in urging Turks to deal openly and honestly with Armenian claims.  And further still, Avery is correct in suggesting that Turkey be prepared to compensate the Armenians.  Justice is bigger than all of us.  Turkey will pay for its crimes, but will gain the respect of other nations and peace with neighbors. 

    Ragnar, I assume your book is intended to help Turks to “go into this with an open mind, provide answers, and certainly in a better way than the standard answers from Turkish scholarship and politicians have shown so far.”  

    If this is your goal, it is a good one.  However, I wonder how you explain the fact that many Turks have already embraced the historical truth.  What is special about these Turks compared to other more stubborn types?  Why are they able to accept the cold, hard truth without sugar-coating.  Why do they feel no need to point to ‘Armenian rebellions’ or ‘Balkan tragedies’ before admitting that the Armenians suffered a genocide?  I am amazed by such courageous people who are able to go against the social pressure to accept unquestioningly the ‘official Turkish version of history’ and make up their own minds based on obvious evidence.

    Wouldn’t it be better if you spent your time supporting those Turks and not giving more support to Turkish denial propaganda?  The Ottoman period had its good and bad points, but the bottom line for Armenians was decidedly negative: genocide.   This is too big a crime to place next to Turkish losses in the Balkans and pretend that they are of equal significance.  A government and sovereign nation has gotten away with the destruction of a certain ethnic group of it citizens for 100 years, and today still avoids justice by blaming and denigrating the victims.  Turks have had 100 years to make up for their nation’s shame but have used the time to invent new ways of running from the truth, including destruction of evidence, creating false history and teaching this in their schools.  I am not anti-Turkish, but as an Armenian, I find this appalling.  If I was a Turk I would be ashamed.

     

  568. Avery jan, I echo your sentiments in its entirety.  Now this is really called a free press.  The AW press is truly the essence of the free press isn’t it?  One of the most democratic papers you could find.

    However I for one of course am disgusted by the AG denialist posters as you would rightfully be. 

  569. How could a tribe such as the Seljuk Turks who came about a 1,000 years ago to the Armenian Highlands pillaging, premeditatingly murdering an entire nation and then sending the women and children to the death marches and expelling any remnants of the Armenian nation; thus making the Armenian Highlands a complete slaughter house, then confiscating their lands, houses, Churches, their belongings and their riches and then after all that to ask the murdered nation to return anything to the MURDERERS?

    Monastras, You are totally out of line and out of logic, but above all out of anything that bears decency.

  570. “Nothing stops Turkey or Turks from asking compensation for lost property or other damage incurred during the loss of the former Ottoman territories.”

    ragnar naess,     compensation for lost property or other damage during the loss of the former Ottoman territories is irrelevant in the case of Turkey and Turks, because originally these properties were not Turkish with Turks being occupiers and colonizers. These are properties STOLEN from indigenous peoples whom Turks came to colonize and then physically annihilate en masse. These peoples need compensation, not the nomadic invaders, colonizers, and genocide perpetrators. Why do you always juxtapose two historically divergent cases? Don’t you think it’s cheap to play “cool guy” for both the Turks and Armenians, when you know the historical truth and chronology of events in Asia Minor?

  571. Ragnar Naess and Monastras, Consider this:

    I quote:
    “Homeland-killing: Worse than genocide, as incredible as that sounds, is the premeditated deprivation of a people of its ancestral heartland.  And that’s precisely what happened.  In what amounted to the Gerat Armenian Dispossession, a nation living for more than four millenia upon the historic patrimony was in a matter of months brutally, literally, and completely eradicated from its land.  Unprecedented in human history, this expropriation constitutes to this day a murder, not only of a people, but of a civilization and an attempt to erase a legacy of culture, a time-earned way of life.  This is where the debate about calling it genocide or not becomes absurd, trivial, and tertiary.  A homeland was exterminated by the Turkish republic’s predecessor and under the world’s watchful eye, and we’re negotiating a word.  Even that term is not enough to encompass the magnitude of the crime”.

    By Khoren of the 1915armeniangenocide blog.

  572. Ok.. i am glad it is not just me who noticed the playing both sides scheme by Ragnar.. Gor you stated and stated well: Don’t you think it’s cheap to play “cool guy” for both the Turks and Armenians, when you know the historical truth and chronology of events in Asia Minor?-  Oh Absolutely

    I was thinking Ragnar will collect himself and dissapear from these pages as he is good at doing after he gets exposed and called out on so many levels (as in the past).. however, he changed his Amo…. now he is playing a good guy to us “inbreds” that we were indeed “disposed”(both his words) by barbaric Ottoman Turks.. cheap action indeed.. However, in a way it works because he is inadvertly just agreed that there was a GENOCIDE and it was INTENTIONAL.. because, Ragnar you said:

    Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
    any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
    against the government.  For instance the
    entry 197 – letter of September 17, 1915 from local authorities to the ministry
    of interior, states that the Armenians of Eskishehir and the environs have been
    deported.  But there is nowhere in these
    documents, as far as I can see (there are short summaries in modern Turkish for
    each letter, which is given in Ottoman, both transcripted and in facsimile of
    the original) any traces of conflict between local leaders and the government

    Is that what you are saying Ragnar??? Because what you stated above has been written 100X over in many sources… you just confirmed piece of history that we have been trying to get through your head.. call me nuts but are you changing for better and for justice??? (hmmm.. hard to believe…) could it be that one post of yours could be a bait to stir our annoyance and frustration away from you… is that your reason?? is that why you wrote to Monastras, the Anti- Armenian and Denialist who keeps REFUSING AND IGNORING direct questions to her but has the balls to come up here and ask her own denialists questions and make her own wrong and inaccurate statements… confused… really confused…

  573. Ragnar- I believe Boyajian had few questions for you to answer. please be so kind and answer them…

    Ragnar, I am still hoping for a concise statement from you regarding what you think Armenians are missing or getting wrong about Turks.  Please state it.  Fill in these blanks if you like:
     
    1.  What Armenians fail to understand about the genocide is______________________________ .
    2.  Armenians were wronged and deserve acknowledgment but ___________________________.
    3.  Armenians can enhance their dialogue with Turks by_________________________________.
    4.  Armenians deserve compensation for their losses in the form of________________________.
    5.  What Turks don’t understand about Armenians is___________________________________.
    6.  Turks deny the genocide because_______________________________________________.
    7.  I am writing a book about the Armenian genocide from the point of view of ______________.
    8.  What I hope to accomplish with my book is________________________________________

  574. Monastras– all you can do is say this to Ragnar or anyone from your clique who directly asks you a question you don’t know or feel uncomfortable to answer.. Then you hope that we continue with our discussion and forget..
    Monastras
    September 10, 2011 | Permalink | Reply
    Ragnar
    I will answer your question as soon as I can

    If it your plan, unfortunately is not working too well for you.. it would be better if you stop exposing yourself as someone unintelligent by making statements you can’t stand behind…especially when you are being called out by one of your Turkophiles…now that is the worst situation to be in..we tried to reason with you and explain to you… drop your Denialist Mask.. let the fresh air to hit your face and clear all the nasty and molded spots… and you will see then that Armenians are not Anti-Turkish and our fight is against denialism, manipulation, lies and moral corruption dumped all on us by your own govt and people who represent such traits…

    Monastras.. another thing… you trying to dump a dirty soil on Avery’s name by posting a comment that has nothing to do with what we are discussing and in addition, shows NO connection whatso ever to hate toward Turks and Anti- Turkish feelings, truly makes you look like someone who is trying her hardest, absolute hardest to smir my friend’s name who has been pointed out how much of a denialists you are over and over and over and over again.. and i agree with him 100%.. without a doubt… so pleas stop your cheap ploys and be a human being first.. you will not win… not if you are trying to do this the way you are.. like Ragnar tried to do to me… it is embarassing to say the least.. embarassing for you…

    Avery’s one strand of hair has more dignity, knowledge, intelligence, and poise than all of the denialists and Turkophiles that we came to know on these pages…. so spare me your comparisons.. they have no ground and you knew it.. but i dont’ know why you decided to go with it anyway..

    here is what we say “Padosh eres”… someone who knows they are wrong, who knows they were called out many times over for their inconsiderate and insenstive comments and flat out denial, but yet continues to speak…

    Gayane
    PS I could not control my laugh when I read this statement written by Monastras” I have never been Anti-Armenian”.. i wish that was true but we all know the answer don’t we Monastras…. too bad..

  575. gor

    we are discussing juridical and ethical matters regarding the question of  reparations. I heard a specialist on the Cyprus issue, and it is evident that Turkish properties now in the Greek part of the island can be  reclaimed by their previous owners, irrespective of the fact that the Turks invaded Cypros several hundred years ago. So your jurisprudence is flawed. Ethically I support reparations for Turkish peasants in Bulgaria who had tilled the soil for  generaitons. I support US aboriginals against present US citizens who bought their stolen land, whether the US citizens in question have a Norwegian or an Armenian ancestry. According to your logic they are both thieves.

  576. by Gor‘s leave:

    whatever compensation Turk peasants are due for tilling the soil for generations can be deducted from the compensation that is due to the indigenous populations whose real properties – buildings, churches, castles, gold, silver, cattle, etc, etc, – were either destroyed, confiscated or stolen by Ottoman Turks and their Seljuk Turk predecessors. Plus,  compensation for the productive human capital that was either exterminated by the invaders or was enslaved.

    Let’s all remember the indisputable historical fact: when nomadic  Seljuk Turk warrior tribes invaded  the Armenian Highlands, and thence Byzantium, and thence Eastern  Europe, they did not invade uninhabited badlands. They invaded lands that had highly developed civilizations, cities, buildings, cultures. Accumulated wealth in the form of real estate, man-made irrigation, productive agriculture on developed agricultural  land that was  accomplished over generations of hard labor, manufacturing,  food production, highly productive people who had developed the ability to produce wealth over millennia of sedentary existence, over millennia of investing in human development, human capital – instead of developing marauding skills.
     
    When Seljuk Turks invaded around 1000 A.D. they did not bring with them wagonloads of gold or silver. Nor did they bring libraries of knowledge or skilled artisans. Nor did they drag beautiful architectural  marvels behind horse drawn carts.  They were indisputably Nomadic Warrior Tribes. Read that sentence again: there is no instance in recorded human history of  nomadic tribes bringing higher civilization to sedentary people. It’s the other way around.   What  Seljuk Turks brought to Armenian Highlands were highly developed martial skills and the remorseless ability to conquer, to  destroy and devastate. Nothing more. It’s the equivalent of someone coming to your house and taking whatever they want – because they have a gun and you don’t.
     
    Let’s add  all that up. Then deduct from what invading Turks owe those sedentary civilizations and their heirs any compensation due to those Turk peasants who were tilling the Bulgarian soil, for example. Surely, we can agree that ordinary Turk peasants tilling the soil were not responsible for the devastation wrought by other warrior Turks. And they should be compensated for whatever value they had added to the soil by their labor.

    Just as surely we can agree that the original owners of that same tract of soil must be compensated as well, not only for the loss of possible increased value of the land due to possible alternative development, not only for destruction of any properties on it (buildings, cattle, orchards,….),  but the imputed income the soil would have produced for the original owners – either because they were expelled or were exterminated outright.
     
     
    BTW: in the US, when you rent/lease  a house/property, any improvements you make that were not authorized  or agreed to by the owner are considered a gift to the owner of the property. The renter can claim no compensation.
     
    The matter regarding Native Americans is a deliberate distraction that has no connection to Turks: it is a worthy discussion subject  – but for another thread.

  577. ragnar naess,   we’re discussing a plethora of matters on this thread, in case you didn’t notice, not only juridical and ethical matters regarding the question of reparations. You alone brought up dozen of absurd matters, such as wartime atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks in the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish war. Is this matter relevant to juridical and ethical matters regarding the question of reparations for Armenians?
     
    Any juridical and ethical matters have an historical implication. It may be that my jurisprudence is flawed, but I’ve never gone beyond the boundaries of my profession on this thread. I’m not an international lawyer. But you now are, in addition to being a ‘junior historian’ and a ‘practitioner’? Jack-of-all-trades
     
    What are the credentials of “a specialist on the Cyprus issue”? If he or she is a ‘specialist’, then how on Earth is it possible to call the traces of Turkish colonization of Cyprus as Turkish ‘properties’? It creates an impression as if Turks were indigenous inhabitants of Cyprus, had properties there, and it was Cypriots who invaded, colonized them, and appropriated their ‘properties’. If he or she is a ‘specialist’, how come he or she has avoided the matter of Turkish military occupation of Cyprus and rightful properties of the Cypriots in the Turkish-occupied part of the island? You see, it all boils down to history and the chronology of historical events.
     
    Turkish invasion in the 11-12th centuries AD and colonization in the 15-16th centuries AD of indigenous peoples of Asia Minor, the Middle East, and southeastern Europe have nothing in common with ‘Turkish peasants in Bulgaria who had tilled the soil for generations.’ Whose soil?! If it was originally theirs, Turks would have tilled it in the Mongolian steppes and areas adjacent to the Altay mountains. Turks tilled stolen soil belonging to the Bulgarians and other Balkan peoples. How ethically and morally honest is it to give good reason for occupiers, knowing that they tilled other’s peoples’ soil for their own livelihood?
     
    US aboriginals received most of their ancestral lands back in the form of reservations. They represent an integral part of the American society; full-fledged citizens of the U.S with equal civil rights. US aboriginals were not slaughtered en masse on orders of their own government.

  578. Boyajian,     what exactly did you thank ragnar naess for?  I noticed you thanked him for “his support to Armenians in his comment above.” Could you share what ‘support to Armenians’ you saw in his introductory clause: “nothing stops Turkey or Turks from asking compensation for lost property or other damage incurred during the loss of the former Ottoman territories”? This clause and the one that follows, which you took as ‘support to Armenians’ represent the classical case of juxtaposition of divergently dissimilar historical events. ‘Former Ottoman territories’ were not the original, autochtonous habitat of the Turks so their ‘properties’—stolen from indigenous peoples—can be classified as ‘lost’. If Turks ‘lost’ ‘their’ properties, then what happened to the properties that autochtonous peoples had before the invasions of the Seljuk Turks in the 11th and colonization of the Ottoman Turks in the 15th century? If Turkophiles think Turks ‘lost’ properties for which they should be compensated, whose properties were they? Who lived on those lands before Turkish warrior nomads appeared? Whose properties were lost in the first place and in the last place, as well, in genocidal acts against the Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians?

  579. Ragnar is playing both fields… he is just like Robert, who exposed himself to get our sympathy yet behind the words, the same Robert or Roberts lure and speak… Ragnar is using a more obvious tactic.. trying to stroke our arm by injecting something that somewhat resembles him supporting Armenians. but unfortunately it is all a game to him.. all of it..and we know it well…

    Gor and Avery jan– brilliant responses…

    Gayane

  580. Gor, I feared I might catch some flack for that.

    This is what I thanked Ragnar for:

     So it is reasonable that Turkey should go into this with an open mind, provide answers, and certainly in a better way than the standard answers from Turkish scholarship and politicians have shown so far. For Turks to answer Armenian claims with their own claims to third parties is not an answer that is in line with justice or jurisprudence.

    To me this supports our assertion that it is improper for Turkey to try to equate Balkan losses with the losses Armenia suffered in the genocide.  I don’t know if he is trying to be supportive, but this is how I understand it.  

     Gor what you wrote in your comment to me is correct in my mind and I agree with your position on Turkish property claims.   As for his introductory clause:   “nothing stops Turkey or Turks from asking compensation for lost property or other damage incurred during the loss of the former Ottoman territories”?   This is simply a factual statement.  They have the right to bring their claim to court, just as we do.   That doesn’t mean that their claim has any moral or juridical teeth in it.  I didn’t comment on it, but I thank you and Avery for taking it on.

    Does that clear things up? 

  581. Boyajian, I understand your desire for  reconciliation and to be fair: as I have said before, I admire my Armenian compatriots for their patience and magnanimity towards some of the Turks and Turkophile posters who truly push the envelope.
     
    However, I have to agree with Gor.
    As Gayane reminded everybody above, Mr. Naess has said a couple of very nasty things.
    The ‘inbreds’  comment was bad enough.
    But when someone refers to our exterminated ancestors using language reserved for referring to garbage and detritus – then it is all over: one strike, you’re out.
    And for those who still want to give Mr. Naess the benefit of doubt based on his possible poor grasp of English, being a Norwegian: on other sites,  Mr. Naess has boasted of having Excellent  proficiency of the  English language.
    So the use of the phrase ‘disposed of’  is a “tell”: it was no accident.
     
    ——
     
    Here is Mr. Naess’s assessment of his English:
    Languages and degree of proficiency
    speaking reading writing
    English excellent excellent excellent
    German good good good
    French good fair fair
    Spanish good fair fair
    Italian good fair fair
    Russian good good good
    Turkish good good good
    Norwegian, mother tongue, also covers Danish and Swedish
    ——-
    One final note:
     
    Today is September 11, 2011.
    Those of us who are Americans, let’s remember the innocent men and women who were murdered on this day 10 years ago.
    They were out countrymen.
    God  bless their souls. They too were our brothers and sisters.
    We, being Armenian-Americans,  understand better than most.

  582. Gayane

    are you sure that you must not revise your view of me as a deceiving person who falsely wants to appear as friends to both parties? Are you sure I am not a case of someone who sees both parties as having both some correct and some incorrect ideas, some reasonable emotional reactions and some that are not reasonable? Have you never reacted in this way if you as an outsider meet with people who disagree, maybe based  on very old and difficult confrontations and problems?

    Ragnar  

  583. gor

    I cannot follow your logic. Suppose A has committed a crime against B, but A also has a legitimate claim against C. Does this mean that we equalise  A and B in some sense, apart from the fact that both have some claim? B has a claim against A, and A has a claim against C. these are two different matters and they do not imply any “equalizing”. Or do you mean that Turks, because you hold that they have been evil and murdering since the dawn of history, never have any legitimate claims at all before they return to a place behind the Altay mountains. Honestly, gor, I dont know you personally , but is this really what you have in mind? Are you serious?

  584. gor

    Sorry, I answer you in a piecemeal manner. the question of the Turkish peasants in Bulgaria was brought up by me when I said that also Turks suffered genocide, at least according to the reasoning of ICTJ. You objected to this, and we discussed it for some time. You failed to convince me that my reasoning was mistaken, and you did not comment on the fate of the Circassians in 1864. Needless to say, the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria has no immediate relevance  for the question of Armenians receiving reparations from Turkey today. My point was the usage of the term genocide, as it has been used in genocide research. To my mind the term genocide, if it is to be used (and I can see many reasons why it should be used) must also be applied to many other cases of mass killing and destruction of etnic,religious etc communities in the final years of the Ottoman Empire. To restrict it only to Armenians, maybe adding Syriacs, Nestorians and Greeks is unreasonable in the light of clear cases where Turks in certain localities were slaughtered as such or put in a life endangering situation, being ethically cleansed, and having their mosques destroyed, and villages burned or taken over by Bulgarians.  So this is my point, it deals with the historical context, which of course does not change or modify the Armenian demands for reparations at all. Turks must answer Armenian claims, and if they want, they may raise claims against the Bulgarian government today, which they have not done, possibly because their catastrophy after all was much less than the Armenian catastrophy, or for whatever reason it is not done. So you must take the responsibility of having argued against me when I said that Turks also suffered genocide at certain historical crossroads. To which arguments I answered.

  585. gayane

    you write
    If it your plan, unfortunately is not working too well for you.. it would be better if you stop exposing yourself as someone unintelligent by making statements you can’t stand behind…

    comment: I am sorry that you have this impression. I mainly ask questions because I am not sure of the answers, in some cases when I wonder about the ideas and attitudes of participants in the discussion I believe I partly know the answers, but rather than making some appraisal or diagnose of other people I prefer to ask relevant questions and have them think themselves. This is how I work in dialogue settings. It is more curteous to ask people to think about something than proclaiming some “truth” that they do not identify with, especially if my question also is a kind of feedback to them on how they think. Many of your comments, by the way, Gayane, made me reconsider my opinions and style, and in turn I make comments and ask questions. Isnt that the right way to discuss?

    you write:   
        especially when you are being called out by one of your Turkophiles…now that is the worst situation to be in..

    comment: I don not understand

    you write
        we tried to reason with you and explain to you… drop your Denialist Mask..
    comment: gayane, I do not understand you. I deny some of the things you believe and support others. Have you never been in this kind of debate before?

    you write: 

        let the fresh air to hit your face and clear all the nasty and molded spots…

    comment: I wish I could do that at the age of 70, but I am not sure about what you have in mind

    you write: 

         and you will see then that Armenians are not Anti-Turkish and our fight is against denialism, manipulation, lies and moral corruption dumped all on us by your own govt and people who represent such traits…
     comment: My own government? Yes, I fight against denialism, lies and manipulation, but I DO NOT AGREE IN ALL THINGS, NEITHER WITH THE TURKS, NOR WITH THE ARMENIANS. Am I allowed to disagree?  No, I believe you when you say that you are not anti-Turkish, but is your criteria to be a “good Turk” to admit yes, genocide happened, yes, we will compensate you with trillions of dollars, yes, we will give you 30% of the present Republic of Turkey? If yes, the Turk is “good”, if he/she says “no” to anything of the above , then he or she is “bad”, is that it?   

  586. Ragnar

    I wrote
    Yes some Armenians were deported even though they were far away from the war zone.The Local governors and the army commanders played an important role to make a decision rather than the central CUP. This doesn’t alone show the intention of CUP as I said the local factors had a greater contribution. remember, Cup tried to stop further deportation when they finally decided to ceased the deportation but they couldn’t, for this reason , they issued orders one after another to stop the deportation which means the communication was poor
    You wrote 
     there are on the contrary a number of references about deportations from places like
    Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
    any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
    against the government.  For instance the
    entry 197 – letter of September 17, 1915 from local authorities to the ministry
    of interior, states that the Armenians of Eskishehir and the environs have been
    deported.  But there is nowhere in these
    documents,

    The provisional law says ” The army, Army corps. and Divisional Commanders are authorized to transfer and relocate the populations of villages and towns, either individually or collectively, in response to military needs, or in response to any signs of treachery or betrayal” therefore what I wrote doesn’t contradict with what was taken place. We must also see the bigger picture that half a million allies soldiers were landing at Gallipoli when this law came in to force.The Turks knew that Boghos Nubar pasha assured the Brithish high command that the Armenians in the Adana region were ready to provide 20000 thousands of soldiers, if the Allies open another front in Mersin or Iskenderun.Thus  the Armenians made common cause with the Enemy may have played an important role to deport the Armenians from the Adana region which was far away from the war zone. we also know that the communication was poor between the government and the local authorities and the government had very little control over local factors. This most probably led the local officials to ignore the central government instructions or interpret in the way they like. 
     

  587. t

    monastras, there are several decisions about deportation at
    the time, the law you refer to is the law of may 27,1915. The earlier  deportations from Zeytun and the Cilician coastline in march 1915, which you mention, may very well have been militarily
    motivated. Taner Akcam confirms that this was the given reason, and possibly
    this was so. Akcam confirms the British plans for a landing in  Cilicia, known
    to the ittihadists.  However, I mentioned Eskisehir and Kütahiya, not Adana. There was no war zone in Eskisehir, and no treason is
     documented so far. So citing the law is not any answer to my question.Eskisehir is but one of the examples of Armenians deported
    from areas with no rebellious tradition and apparently no intentions of
    activities against the government. However, the fact of deportations from
    outside the war zones is but one of the factors that made both many
    contemporary observers and many later historians conclude that the relocations
    were a cloak for extermination.  There
    are others and I have mentioned them here in AW earlier. However, I’d like to
    ask you the following. Some years ago a Turkish citizen posted an article in “Turkish
    Daily News” with the title “Will we ever know the truth?”. Evidently he was
    uncertain about what actually took place in these years. It is a fact that
    until recently all Turkish citizens who officially declared that they believed
    that the ittihadists launched a program of extermination of their Armenian
    citizens, a genocide, were automatically facing trial. Even if the books of
    Taner Akcam have been published in Turkish and never declared unlawful, we have
    the recent case of Orhan Pamuk. This is not a climate condusive to search for
    unpopular truths. So my question is: are you absolutely sure that the accusation
    of genocide is false, or do you believe that it may be true? Is it not possible
    that the Turkish public has been deceived for many years, since there were so
    many constraints on free discussion?

  588. ragnar naess,    you cannot follow my logic because you’re Turko-centric. Had you been an impartial person, you’d understand my logic very easily. Here’s an example.  You write: “A [Turks] has committed a crime against B [Armenians], but A [Turks] also has a legitimate claim against C [Bulgarians].” From the first glance, this paradigm doesn’t mean that you equalize A and B in some sense. But equalization comes into sight when you appear in all your beauty stating the following: “Turks also suffered genocide.” With this in mind, the ‘ABC’ paradigm at bottom should read as follows: “A [Turks] has committed a crime against B [Armenians], but A [Turks] also has a legitimate claim against C [Bulgarians] because, just like B [Armenians], A [Turks] were victims of the identical crime committed by C [Bulgarians].” Does this clear things up as to why you cannot follow my logic in objecting equalization of the crime committed by A [Turks] against B [Armenians] and by C [Bulgarians] against A [Turks]? You equalize the crime—in its deliberate intent, barbarity, magnitude, scope, and consequences—committed against disconnected Armenians by their own government with the atrocities that Turks and Russians or Turks and Bulgarians suffered while fighting each other in a war they declared on each other. It is this qualization that I object.  I don’t mean that Turks can’t have any legitimate claims, but you just can’t shrug off the fact that their claims are the result of actions that they brought on their heads: it was the nomadic Seljuk warriors who invaded Asia Minor and the Balkans, not sedentary Armenians. It was the bellicose Turks who captured the capital of Eastern Christendom Constantinople, not civilized Byzantines. It was the bellicose Ottoman Turks who expanded their military conquests over the Middle East, Asia Minor, Arabia, and Europe with sword and fire and colonized many indigenous peoples, not Serbs or Bulgarians or Assyrians or Armenians.  And I don’t know you personally, but were you serious when you posted the ‘inbreds’ comment and used the degrading phrase ‘disposed of’ in regard to Armenians?

  589. Mponatras
    I agree that you earlier have writeen that it was local army commanders and local authorities who also were responsible for deportations. There is also no documentation as far as I can see that Armenians from places like Eskisehir and Kütahya were relocated by local leaders in defience of central orders. However, you write:…(the CUP center) tried to stop further deportation when they finally decided to cease the deportation but they couldn’t. unquote. As I have said before this is completely new for me. It is not mentioned by Gürün (“The Armenian file, 1985) and not by Halacoglu in the article I mentioned. Neither is it mentioned in Haluk Selvi: The Armenian question (sakarya 2007), nor in  Sonyel’s “The great war and the tragedy of Anatolia”(TTK 2000). And Justin McCarthy in his “the Ottoman peoples and the end pof empires” (2001), speaks about the deportation of Armenians from “interior provinces on which there was no imminent danger”(p.111), implicitly conseding that this was wrong. However, there is no comment to the effect that local leaders continued to deport Armenians in spite of being ordered by the CUP center to stop deporting. Who has maintained that a considerable part of the relocation of Armenians was done by local officials against the will of the CUP center? I would like a reference to the book or dissertation that holds this view. 

  590. gor
     
    I am sorry if you felt offended by my words “inbred” and “disposed of”. I will be more careful with my language in the future. But I cannot follow your logic in the way you  describe it. I never said that Turks and Armenians suffered identical losses in all respects, I just pointed to one prominent decision, that of the ICTJ, which was applied to the Armenians , but that also – by the same reasoning – should be applied to other groups, among them Turks in Bulgaria, to take one example. I said that according to the  same kind of reasoning and criteria the Turks in Bulgaria also suffered genocide. But the differences between the two cases, even if both qualify as genocide, are great. This has to do with factors as 1) the relative number of people who perished (many more Armenians than Turks relative to the total number of Turks/Armenians),2) the number of the group still residing in the area under question (many Turks remained in Bulgaria, very few or none in the ancestral home of the Armenians), and 3)  the Armenians have raised the issue, and should by common morality receive an adequate answer, and reparations according to international standards. To my mind, 4) The various Bulgarian governments have neverhese are examples of the differences between the cases, and is why my bottom line is to support the Armenians, not in everything you want, but in important aspects to my mind. We disagree on certain items, but this does not make me “Turk-centered”. I disagree with many Turks who participate here in AW, which is easy to see if you look both at what I have said to them, and what I have written to you.
     

  591. ragnar naess,    you don’t have to be sorry when you answer me in a piecemeal manner. I’ll return the favor by answering you in a similar manner.  Out of four categories that ICTJ used to determine that Turkish deliberate mass slaughter of Armenians constituted genocide, only one can be applied to the civilian segment of the Turkish belligerent party in the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish or 1912-13 First Balkan wars, in which Armenians didn’t figure in any way. You failed to support your argument re: the Bulgarian Turks who, you dream, also suffered genocide according to the reasoning of ICTJ, because, unlike me, you never went over the four criteria used by ICTJ to show how all four of them apply to the Bulgarian Turks’ case. Therefore, there was actually no ‘reasoning’ per se on your part, except for a mere assertion. I normally don’t make effort to convince anyone holding views not susceptible of proof. My proof is that ICTJ resolution deals with the genocide of Armenians committed by the Turks, not the genocide of Bulgarian Turks committed by ethnic Bulgarians.

    You also didn’t comment whether you justify Brevik’s killings of innocent people just as you justify Turks’ mass murder of innocent people as a result of both perpetrators’ paranoia and overreaction leading to murder that you admitted was a key in the both cases. That’s why I didn’t comment on the fate of the Circassians. I’m ready whenever you’re ready.
     
    You cannot extend the usage of the term genocide that’s applicable to mass exterminated Armenians, Syriacs, Nestorians, and Greeks, on the Bulgarian Turks who suffered atrocities during wars that their co-ethnic armies waged or during the national liberation struggles aimed at expelling the Turkish occupiers. You’ll devaluate yourself as a ‘junior scholar’, ‘practitioner’ or ‘jurisprudent’ or a polymath, if you continue juxtaposing the government-planned and executed deliberate murder with the intent to destroy a race with deaths, occasional ethnic cleansing, casualties, etc. that are inevitable during the wars or self-determination struggles. Turks haven’t raised claims against the Bulgarian government not only because their ‘catastrophe’ pales in comparison with their savage slaughters of Armenians, Assyrians, Nestorians, and Greeks, but also because they realize that the casualties they’ve had were the result of their entering into wars and the consequence of their earlier occupation of lands belonging to others.
     
    I categorically object to and ridicule profusely any attempt at equalizing the deliberate, centrally-executed Turkish policy aimed at destroying Christian minorities as indigenous ethnic, national, religious, and racial groups with the casualties that Turks have had in various wartime situations or during the freedom-fighting against them as occupiers.

  592. sorry part of my words fell out: I wanted to say:  As far as I know, 4) The various Bulgarian governments over the years have never distorted the fate of the Bulgarian Turks in 1877-78 in the way the Turkish official version for many years distorted the Armenian fate in 1915-16. But I never researched it in detail.

  593. Not to belabor the point, but Avery, please read what I wrote to Gor and let me know if this is clear to you.   I do give people the benefit of the doubt, (yes even Ragnar Naess) but I am well aware of the particularly offensive references that you mention above and have followed him on this site for more than a year.  He remains an enigma to me.   I find it especially difficult to understand what he hopes to accomplish by playing both sides of the fence.  I have to believe that it is in service of completing his book, a major life project after many years of work with minorities and human rights.  Perhaps he will someday clarify this for us, as he has been freely fishing in our pond for some time now.  Again I thank you and Gor, Gayane, etc., for taking on elements that I don’t.  Between all of us, I think we have the bases covered.

    BTW, Ragnar’s English is much better than my Norwegian (non-existent), but I have often found it difficult to understand some of his ideas and thought that he didn’t quite understand others.  Language is an issue here and I believe he tries to make up for any deficiencies in understanding by his pedantic style of debate.  Assert, question, clarify, assent, disagree, reassert, question and so on…)  Always trying to come to a point of understanding or clarifying disagreement on point A before proceeding to point B.  

    This is not such a bad thing to do, but it is all done very cerebrally and doesn’t sit well with us warm-blooded Armenians who are over-flowing with emotion around anything Turkish.  I for one have no patience with his effort to point out that Turks suffered too.  Who didn’t?  But they have a vast country, undue political influence, support the Azeris in their efforts to take even more from us, and continue to run from the truth about the genocide.   I fail to see why they need support from him or any other Turkophile historian against Armenian claims, when we are fighting for simple justice for an obvious crime (genocide) committed by a known perpetrator  (Turkey).   You would think that a human rights advocate would not support ‘Goliath’ against ‘David’ here.  As I have said to him before, for me, justice is the priority, not volumes upon volumes of descriptions and interpretations of the final years of the Ottoman empire.   It is all very interesting, but in my mind it is a game encouraged by Turkey to delay justice.

  594. Ragnar– it is obvious you do not pay attention which comment is directed to who..

    The comment posted by you to me (see below) (note: including only portion of it just to direct your attention to what post I am referring to) was actually for MONASTRAS and not you… talk about jumping at someone without reading the entire matter…but that explains why you always misquote or misrepresent my identity on these pages.. because you just don’t pay attention and pick and choose what you want to read.. gee weez…

    ragnar naess
    September 12, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    gayane
    you write
    If it your plan, unfortunately is not working too well for you.. it would be better if you stop exposing yourself as someone unintelligent by making statements you can’t stand behind…
    comment: I am sorry that you have this impression. I mainly ask questions because I am not sure of the answers, in some cases when I wonder about the ideas and attitudes of participants in the discussion I believe I partly know the answers……………………

      

  595. ragnar naess
    September 12, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Gayane
    are you sure that you must not revise your view of me as a deceiving person who falsely wants to appear as friends to both parties? NO.. and NO you had plenty of opportunities Ragnar to prove us wrong but you did everything to prove us right….. so NO…unfortunately you will remain as that individual who plays both fields but deep down you are an asbolute Turkophile… sorry Ragnar.. truly sorry..

      Are you sure I am not a case of someone who sees both parties as having both some correct and some incorrect ideas, some reasonable emotional reactions and some that are not reasonable? NO- NO AND NO…. we have experienced your both sides Ragnar.. your side that wants to show Armenians are right what they are fighting for, you do tenfolds to cover that up with nonsense and pro Turkish bias… so NO…

      Have you never reacted in this way if you as an outsider meet with people who disagree, maybe based  on very old and difficult confrontations and problems?
    We are not talking about simple disagreement as to what ice cream should I buy today or which shirt fits you better…..YOu are not disagreeing with me which book has great info Ragnar.. you are fighting tooth and nail to tell us that Genocide (GENOCIDE) never happened.. you are fighting so hard to prove to us that Armenians are being selfish by claiming Genocide and calling it just for ARmenians (rubbish.. because you know that is not true).. THat Turkey has all the rights to claim theirs too (what claims???)… That Turks suffered Genocide by Bulgarians?? (NOTE: BULGARIANS WERE MASSACRED BY BARBARIC OTTOMAN TURKS not the other way around.. just because Bulgarians fought back to protect themselves against barbarism it does not mean Turks can claim Genocide.. oh another thing.. IF Turks suffered Genocide by Bulgarians.. i wonder why Lemkin did not use THAT event to coin the word Genocide.. or better yet.. why did the world’s govts and courts EVER brought this Genocide up ?? To speak and talk about the story of the Turks, the aggressors suffered by the hands of more civilized culture, Bulgarians…hmmmmmmmmmm..maybe because Bulgarians could not carry out a premediated, systematic Genocide but absolutely had the right to fight back and protect their homes and families..please direct me to sources that the suffering of the Turks by Bulgarians truly constitutes as a Genocide.. is this internationally known fact??? but  yet you are so fast as to dismiss the mass murder of the Armenian nation.. how convenient for you… so NO Ragnar…
     Have a nice day

    Gayane

  596. Monastras is talking just to talk.. because obviously her Anti-Armenianness is soooo much that is blinds her ability to read and understand STRONG FACTS provided by my compatriots.. Even Ragnar who is very close to her nation posed direct questions she does not know how to answer except with vague nonrelated responses.. Monastras you are truly piece of work.. hope you get some senses in you because your reasonings are laghable to say the least…

    G

  597. boyajian

    I will start answering your specific questions.   
    1.  What Armenians fail to understand about the genocide is – I cannot say anything about Armenians generally, but many Armenians seem not to realize that there is a real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians on 1915-16, and this makes them forget to ARGUE. further they must not use questionable sources which are being dismissed by most sources______________________________ .
    2.  Armenians were wronged and deserve acknowledgment but _- there is no “but” , what “but” might there be?__________________________.
    3.  Armenians can enhance their dialogue with Turks by_Again, not Armenians at large but SOME Armenians would benefit from focussing on the ittihadists,and their crimes, not on the Turks as being “bad” from the very beginning, an opinion which both is questionable and not conducive to convince Turks who look honestly into the matter. 

    ________________________________.
    4. Armenians deserve compensation for their losses in the form of – compensation for lost propoerties and apologies, about land I am not sure. There are international standards and discussions on the rights of indigenous people, and I am not familiar with it. 
     

     

  598. ragnar naess,    you never replied if it’s possible to provide us with a copy of your upcoming book’s Introduction.  This will tell us a lot about your true intentions.  So, is it possible or not?  

  599. “I am sorry if you felt offended by my words “inbred” and “disposed of”.
     
    I believe it was Avery who invited our attention to such obnoxious words in addressing the Armenians, but I believe your apology will be taken although it is noted that you avoided apologizing directly in response to Avery’s incessant demands. Just imagine what hysteria you’d wind up if any Armenian poster used such words with regards to the Turks.
     
    “I never said that Turks and Armenians suffered identical losses in all respects, I just pointed to one prominent decision, that of the ICTJ, which was applied to the Armenians, but that also – by the same reasoning – should be applied to other groups, among them Turks in Bulgaria, to take one example.”
     
    Are these not your world in a previous post: “[…]the question of the Turkish peasants in Bulgaria was brought up by me when I said that also Turks suffered genocide, at least according to the reasoning of ICTJ”?
     
    ‘Should apply’ and ‘didn’t apply’ are two different things. You personally think it should, but the reputable body as ICTJ thinks it shouldn’t. The reality is that ICTJ addressed the genocide of the Armenians, not Bulgarian Turks representing a civilian segment of a warring party.  Besides, why do you want the ICTJ genocide resolution to apply to two unmatched cases? I invited you to go over the four criteria that ICTJ sets up to determine whether or not there was genocide. I only saw one out of four that can be applicable to the Bulgarian Turks. You cannot follow my logic? Well, too bad. Can you follow ICTJ’s logic? Let’s go over all four criteria and see if all four of them apply to the Bulgarian Turks who were, as you may know, the civilian segment of the belligerent party, officially at war, and thus predestined towards suffering atrocities. What is so incomprehensible in my logic for you? How can a wartime situation, in which civilians as a rule suffer, be compared or juxtaposed with the deliberate government-planned mass extermination of a people as a race? What is beyond your comprehension here? Pardon me, but might it be that you spent too long a time among Turkish denialists to develop incomprehension?

  600.  
    gor

    regarding the Turks in Bulgaria I will try again:

    you write:

    Out of four categories that ICTJ used to determine that Turkish deliberate mass
    slaughter of Armenians constituted genocide, only one can be applied to the
    civilian segment of the Turkish belligerent party in the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish
    or 1912-13 First Balkan wars, in which Armenians didn’t figure in any way.

    comment: – well, then you admit that the question is about the fate of
    civilians? The notion “Civilian segment of the Turkish belligerent
    party” does not make much sense, because the whole notion of protection of
    civilians in war arose specifically regarding the fate of the civilians in
    countries at war. Second: I wrote earlier today (1209) that the fate of the
    Armenians can not be equalized to the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria (but you do
    not comment on it), BUT that according to the procedure of ICTJ one must also
    conclude that the Bulgarian Turks suffered genocide.

    the criteria mentioned by the ICTJ are:
    (i) the perpetrator killed one or more persons; (ii) such person or
    persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group;
    (iii) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and (iv)
    the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed
    against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction.

    The description given by Justin McCarthy in his “Death and Exile” has never been
    substantially attacked by any historian to my mind. It is  praised by Zurcher as providing an aspect “too often overlooked”. It is said that “from the first days of the Russian invasion
    of Ottoman Europe, Russian troops killed defenseless Turkish citizens”(p. 66).
    He adds that this is not only according to Ottoman testimonies, but also the
    international press. In july 1877 some 20 journalists from the main German,
    French and English newspapers met to sign a statement condemning the massacres
    of Turkish civilians. The massacres generated a huge stream of refugees, who
    perished in large numbers because of famine, sickness and the coldness of  autumn/winter. Statistics indicate that 260.000 civilian Turks died in the course of the war. There appeared to be
    method and consistency in the attacks. The aim was to cleanse Bulgaria of Turks, with no concern for human life. That not all were killed is no argument against the events being genocide, as often is said regarding the Armenian fate.
    The element “killed one or more persons” is obviously present. The element that 
    these persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious
    group is also present. The targeted group was Turks in Bulgaria, similar to the
    group mentioned in the ICTJ memorandum(“the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of eastern Anatolia, as such”)
     
    Regarding the question of whether “the conduct took place in the context of a manifest
    pattern of similar conduct directed against that group» it is obvious from the
    preceding description that Turks were massively targeted.
     
    So how you can conclude that only one of the 4 elements applies to the
    case of the Bulgarian Turks?
     Then regarding the question of the fourth, the question of intent the
    ICTJ says the following:
     While this legal memorandum is not intended to definitively resolve particular factual disputes, we believe that the most reasonable conclusion to draw from the various accounts of the Events is that at least some of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Armenians of eastern Anatolia, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.
    Because the other three elements identified above have been definitively established, the
    Events, viewed collectively, can thus be said to include all of the elements of the
    crime of genocide as defined in the Convention, and legal scholars as well as historians,
    politicians, journalists and other people would be justified in continuing to so describe them.
    Unquote.
    Given the description of the atrocities committed against the Turks in
    Bulgaria, it is very hard to deny that   “at least
    some of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence of their
    actions would be the destruction, in whole or in part, of the Turks of  Bulgaria, as such, or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent”.
    Indeed some 20% of the Turks in bulgaria died.
     As you see the ICTJ concludes in the following manner:”… and legal
    scholars as well as historians, politicians, journalists and other people would
    be justified in continuing to so describe them( that is describe the events as
    genocide). unquote. To me it is obvious that – according to the same way of thinking –
    the atrocities against the Turks of Bulgaria also can be called genocide.
     Note that this is a low threshold definition of genocidal intent. It is enough
    that “at least some of the perpetrators of the Events knew that the consequence
    of their actions would be the destruction…” for the events to qualify as
    genocide”. In the same way as the ICTJ holds it for reasonable to conclude that some of the actors simply killed Armenians to destroy the group of Armenians in Eastern Anatolia, as such, some
    of the actors in Bulgaria in 1877-78 must have killed Turks just to kill Turks,
    that is Turks ,as such. This is a reasonable conclusion. That NONE of the
    Russian soldiers, Cossacks or Bulgarian paramilitary groups had this
    exterminatory goal seems very unlikely to me. They knew the consequences of
    their actions, not only of killing indiscriminately, but also the effect of
    making hundreds of thousands flee in the given circumstances. — So this is my
    reasoning, right or wrong.
     
    Finally, I never said that killing of Armenians was LEGITIMATE  because of Turkish paranoia, I EXPLAINED it
    partly by referring to a paranoia. I hope you see the doifference. So your paradoxical
    parallel to the killings perpetrated by Breivik on july 22 in norway  is not very illuminating.
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
       

  601. “[…]many Armenians seem not to realize that there is a real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians on 1915-16”.
     
    Between whom is there a ‘real disagreement’,    ragnar naess?  Between Armenians and Turks? This is understandable because disagreement is the only thing Turks can match against the truth, reparations and land restitution.  Who else disagrees? If you bring up McCarthy or Lewy or a bunch of bought and paid-for denialists, you’ll insult our intelligence. Who else?

  602. ‘Not to belabor the point, but Avery, please read what I wrote to Gor and let me know if this is clear to you.
    Boyajian, I read what you wrote to Gor. It is clear. But I still disagree: it is me, not you.
    You are far more tolerant of certain people, people I cannot tolerate for specific reasons. The fact that I disagree means just that: I would not have thanked him. You and I are different. Sometimes your way is right.

  603.  ‘many Armenians seem not to realize that there is a real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians on 1915-16, and this makes them forget to ARGUE.’

    Ragnar, you don’t have this quite right.  Armenians don’t accept that there is real disagreement and we are loathe to argue against recently fabricated alternate viewpoints that are designed to cloud the issue, because that is giving these arguments too much credence.  We believe that the evidence of the genocide was known and recognized worldwide since the beginning and there is a large body of reputable scholars who uphold this view.  Those scholars that disagree are primarily Turkish or bought by Turkey, which casts a shadow over their disagreement and their scholarship.  Which questionable sources are you referring to?  

    .  “Armenians can enhance their dialogue with Turks by_Again, not Armenians at large but SOME Armenians would benefit from focussing on the ittihadists,and their crimes, not on the Turks as being “bad” from the very beginning, an opinion which both is questionable and not conducive to convince Turks who look honestly into the matter.”

    I can see your point here but again remind you that many Turks can and do recognize the truth of their nation’s guilt already.   And more would do so if the propaganda was exposed for what it is.

  604. Historical truths often have limited lives. What is accepted as unquestionable for some years or even decades, may be questioned by quite many people. Then those who have the views may choose to insist on their idea of the truth without re-arguing the case in the light of arguments, or they may argue. I just answered Boyajian and gave an advise. You will of course follow your own path. I wish you luck

  605. Ragnar-

    You said:

    disagreement about the fate of the Armenians on 1915-16, and this makes them forget to ARGUE. further they must not use questionable sources which are being dismissed by most sources

    oh really??

    Why don’t you point out which sources are questionable for you??? what sources do you speak of that did not hit the spot for you???  please provide exact name and dates….

    you said:

    not Armenians at large but SOME Armenians would benefit from focussing on the ittihadists,and their crimes, not on the Turks as being “bad” from the very beginning, an opinion which both is questionable and not conducive to convince Turks who look honestly into the matter. 

    how many times do we have to repeat ourselves to make these people understand??? are we THAT unclear?? Ragnar… how many times we said this: WE DO NOT HATE OR THINK ORDINARY TURKS ARE BAD… you know very well that we despise the govt and the denialists and Turkophiles…. what is there that you do not understand about this? KEEP THIS IN YOUR NOTEBOOK.. PUT THIS IN YOUR BOOK.. whatever it takes for you to understand Armenians are not haters like denialists and Turkophiles of what is true and just…

    …..you sure are piece of work.. .

  606. gor

    thank you for accepting my apologies. Actually I feel that you and I argue and i hope it will strengthen us in our attempts to fight for justice as we believe in it. That we disagree is another matter. With Avery it is different. I have problems in relating to him, not least in the light of his last post  on my CV

  607. It would clear out alot of questions about Ragnar if we do see the introduction of his book Gor jan… but i doubt he will have the courage to do that… but then who knows???

    He might have two versions (one to pull a wool over our eyes by pro Armenian version and the other pro-Turkish) of his book just like his split personality on these pages…possibility…who knows??

    Gayane

  608. Yet again, this discussion appears to be enthralled and obsessed with stating and restating the obvious – that today’s Turkey (and it’s supporters/paid hacks and lobbyists) officially denies the genocide. At this point, anyone reading these pages knows this well, and probably has known it well even before reading it here.  Restating the obvious ad nauseum with endless citations is not an effective way 1) to change behavior or thinking among the denialists nor 2) a way to curb their actions.  The best and only way to do that is to thoroughly understand the root causes of the denialism and pursue ways to address those causes. The facts and details of the genocide are not the cause of denialism. More likely, the causes are related to the psychological and political state of affairs in post-genocide Turkey and the legal threats posed by laws that make it criminal to even discuss the genocide in Turkey. Face it – the people who run Turkey know very, very well what happened to their Armenians, including the how and why. They will neither discuss it nor acknowledge it, not because of micro details related to the burning of a church full of people, but because of macro reasons related to the extermination of 25% of the population and the residual economic consequences of today that will surely come back to bite them in a big way.  Personal details and remembrances are important, but most important is to get Erdogan’s government to repeal article 301 once and for all, so that these discussions can take place openly in Turkey today, without threat and without fear.   Once that happens, the lid will come off and alot of truth will be revealed and exposed, and hopefully resolutions and reparations can be made.  The descendants of survivors, both inside and outside Turkey would appreciate this – they’ve been waiting for entire lifetimes for this – but the clock keeps ticking.    

  609. I personally accepted your apologies,   ragnar naess,  but, although I was insulted by your words just like any Armenian here, it wasn’t me who actually demanded your apologies. But you chose to apologize to me because, comparing to Avery’s tougher stand on Turkophile denialists, you chose a “softer” person and a more fitting way for you, not because “you and I argue and it strengthens us in our attempts to fight for justice as we believe in it.”  Actually, I don’t think I argue with you. Like I said before, I’m haunting you to rebut your Turkiophilic innuendos. I don’t feel I can take your words that you “fight for justice as you believe in it” as honest, because you never called the crime for which you “fight” by its proper name. Moreover, you use every opportunity and every dubious denialist source to equalize the methodical destruction of a race with wartime-related situational instances of atrocities or ethnic cleansing. If you didn’t determine the crime by properly denominating it, how can you “fight for justice”? Justice for what crime? Burglary?
    P.S.   I re-read Avery’s post on your CV twice trying to understand what so upset you in it that you have “problems in relating to him.” I found no remotely offensive word in his post. Or are you attempting to equalize your explicit affronts with a harmless post, just as you try to equalize the genocide of the Armenians with war atrocities against the Turks?

  610. ragnar naess,    you ask me: “then you admit that the question is about the fate of civilians?” Not quite.  I admit that the fate of civilians who constituted a segment of a party to a war and the fate of civilians who were not a segment of a party to a war and were, in fact, detached from the wars in question or any other war, for that matter, cannot be juxtaposed. In other worlds, I don’t stop at the point of the fate of civilians, but take the circumstances surrounding their deaths into account, first and foremost. Through this perspective, the notion “civilian segment of the Turkish belligerent party” makes perfect sense, because although theoretically and legally the notion of protection of civilians in war arose specifically regarding the fate of civilians in countries at war, in practice there was no such a war recorded in the annals of human history that wouldn’t bring sufferings to the civilians representing one, both, or multiple parties to the war.

    I did comment on your point that “the fate of the Armenians cannot be equalized to the fate of the Turks in Bulgaria, but that according to the procedure of ICTJ one must also conclude that the Bulgarian Turks suffered genocide.” I categorically objected to the last part, stating that only one out of four criteria, namely: (ii) such person or persons belonged to a particular national, ethnical, racial or religious group, by which ICTJ decides on genocide, is applicable to the Bulgarian Turks. None of the remaining three: (i) the perpetrator killed one or more persons; (iii) the perpetrator intended to destroy, in whole or in part, that group, as such; and (iv) the conduct took place in the context of a manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against that group or was conduct that could itself effect such destruction—can be automatically applied to the fate of the civilian Bulgarian Turks during their government’s wars with the Russians and Bulgarians.

    In the future, if you choose to give arguments and expect counterarguments from me, please refrain from citing cheap Turkish sell-out McCarthy, OK? How can a serious person—scholar or just a common bystander notwithstanding—take this phrase spewed by McCarthy seriously: “From the first days of the Russian invasion (emphasis mine) of Ottoman Europe (emphasis mine), Russian troops killed defenseless Turkish citizens”? Excuse me?!! Russia declared war on the Ottomans in April 1877 after the Bulgarians’ 1876 April uprising against the much-loathed Ottoman colonial rule in which Turkish irregulars, Bashi-bazouks, brutally suppressed the revolt, massacring up to 15,000 Bulgarians in the process. One of many atrocities against the Bulgarian civilians took place at a church in Batak where twelve hundred people, mostly women and children, took refuge. In a typically Turkish way, so familiar to the Armenians, these people were burnt alive in the church. McCarthy may babble whatever he wants, but the fact remains that it was not an invasion, but an officially declared war. “Ottoman Europe” is another masterpiece of this Turkish sell-out. From when Europe was “Ottoman”? Is this a correct toponym to use by a scholar who knows too well that only in the 15th century AD was Europe subjected to invasions and thence colonization by the Ottomans? Turkish occupation of the southeastern part of Europe makes the continent “Ottoman”? Ridiculous…
     
    I will address ICTJ points in relation—or irrelevance, to be exact—to the Bulgarian Turks in my next post.

  611. ‘ Restating the obvious ad nauseum with endless citations is not an effective way 1) to change behavior or thinking among the denialists nor 2) a way to curb their actions. ‘

    Well said Karekin.   (….sometimes the Planets apparently align just right)

  612. ‘Or are you attempting to equalize your explicit affronts with a harmless post, just as you try to equalize the genocide of the Armenians with war atrocities against the Turks?’

    Yes, Gor, they are. In their desperation  they see offense where there is none, while dispensing truly vile insults with reckless abandon. There was even a lame attempt a few posts back by Mr. Naess to label me Anti-Turkish for agreeing with Seervart that Turks are attempting to take over Europe. The proof I produced was Mr. Erdgogan’s public advice to his Turk compatriots living in Europe. PM  Erdogan is the elected leader of the State of Turkey. Elected in a free and fair election with 50% of the Turk electorate. Q.E.D. 

    (long post re non-apology for vile insult dispensed with reckless abandone coming up next, after a short commercial break)

  613. on Bulgarians.

    “Bulgariaaims to accelerate talks on damages claims fromTurkey”
    [Apr 8, 2011, 11:49 GMT
    Sofia – The Bulgarian parliament on Friday told the cabinet to accelerate talks with Turkey on the compensation of hundreds of thousands of ethnic Bulgarians who fled Turkey a century ago.
    Some 250,000 Bulgarians fled their homes in Thrace, north-west Turkey, when Turkey seized the opportunity during the Balkan wars to reclaim some of the territories the Ottoman Empire had lost over the previous decades.
    Bulgaria is now demanding more than 10 billion dollars to compensate the Thracian Bulgarian families who lost their property and assets. There are around 800,000 descendants of the refugees from 1913.
    The damages claim could play a major role in Turkey’s aspirations for European Union membership, because Bulgaria could condition its support on a settlement. ]
    (source: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1631657.php/Bulgaria-aims-to-accelerate-talks-on-damages-claims-from-Turkey)

  614. Gayane
    the questionable sources are the Andonian papers, the “Ten commandmens” and the book by Mevlanzade Rifat. 

    gor

    we disagree, and the Turks of Bulgaria was civilians according to the understansding of the time. And as I say, MCarthy’s work on this is not disputed. The ciphers you cite on the “Bulgarian atrocities” are inflated according to recent research, and anyhow it has nothing to do with the question of what was done to the Turks.

        
     

  615. Seervart – I won’t pretend to have an answer to your question, but I think 301 is a very serious, anti-democratic obstacle that is keeping the lid on any open and honest discussion of the genocide within Turkey. If they can use it to shut up a Nobel Prize winner, then it is enough to intimidate just about everyone else into silence.  So, it really has to go by the wayside.  

    Perhaps the time is right for Pres. Sarkisyan to cross that bridge and bring it up during a face to face discussion or phone call with Erdogan?  Certainly, the AKP has opened the lid a tiny bit with the willingness to return some minority properties, so maybe the call could begin by thanking and then encouraging him to go even further?  And then maybe, a discussion on repealing 301 will follow?  Of course, this is all hypothetical, but stranger things have happened in the history of the world. The Berlin Wall is no more, and the USSR is gone…so, 301 is sure to go into the dustbin of history at some point…I’m quite certain of that and once it does, more positive changes will follow. 

  616. Ragnar– how convenient to use people who are supporters of the Armenian Genocide but you don’t lose a second to mention all the bought out authors and historians.. hmmmm… talk about fighting for justice as you see in it…you may have a point though Ragnar.. you may be fighting for something .. that something is TUrkey…you are fighting for the wrong side sir…..

    Oh and my grandma-in-law is Bulgarian.. do you want me to have her tell the stories of her childhood??? her parents fate in the Ottoman’s Turks?? Do you?? because maybe then you can get it through your Turkophile’s head that Bulgarians were murdered and massacred just like ARmenians and THANK GOD they fight back and fight back fierce… it was unfortunate that my ancestors did not have a chance to defend themselves when half their men population was barbarically slaughtered like animals…. 

    Gayane
          

  617. Avery jan– you are hillariou.. absolutely hillarious..lol

    I agree with you on planets do align from time to time and I know exactly what you mean..:)

    Gayane

  618. Gor jan- you nailed it my friend.. NAILED it… Ragnar did not apologize to Avery who was the first to bring up the issue of him being disrespectul… however, he chose a different route… HE also tried to create choas about me as well on these pages.. it seems like when the heat is on, he tries to defuse it by creating commotion about one of us who are strongly against his ideology and the way he is approaching Genocide matter.. .

    Now Robert the Turk is after me asking ME to debate with HIM.. debate between him and I.. seriously??? debate about what??  like what is th deal with these denialist??? they can’t handle the fact that they are defeated and there is no where to hide.. their true colors are out and we tried.. truly tried to make them see this.. but they keep pushing and pushing….unbelievable…. but he got his answer….

    Gayane      

  619. Karekin– i am sorry but why would Sarkissian thank Turkey for returning what was OURS to begin with??? why should we give Gul a big head to say “OH MASTER THANK YOU THANK YOU FOR YOUR kind gesture for returning not even half of what we used to own and stolen all by your ugly govt…”””..

    Seriously??? I am all for speaking with him but let’s talk on firm grounds and not on sugar cloated/ kiss their u know what to stroke their ego every time they throw us a bone…   it is just that Turkey gets their high .and that needs to stop…maybe i am just not as patience…

    Gayane

  620. ‘Perhaps the time is right for Pres. Sarkisyan to cross that bridge and bring it up during a face to face discussion or phone call with Erdogan’

    NO: Like Willie Brandt, PM Erdogan must first go to Yerevan, to Ծիծեռնակաբերդ…..We all know what he needs to do there.

    People of Armenia need to do nothing.
    Pres. Sargsyan, the man that represents RoA, needs to do nothing.

    It’s all up to the Turks. They are the defendants. We are the plaintiffs. Plaintiffs don’t negotiate terms: defendants do. If Turks don’t – too bad. Interest will keep accruing. 

    Armenians need to do nothing, but wait and watch from the sidelines.
    Their hubris has finally caught up with them: Turks are doing our work for us.
    Thank you very much. 

  621. Disagreement, Ragnar?

    What ‘real disagreement’ should be allowed to stand in the way of Turkey offering an apology and reparations?  Has Armenia not waited long enough and hasn’t Turkey avoided it long enough?

    I wrote the list of questions for you because I hoped to understand you better.  This is what I understand so far:  

    You believe that their is another side to the Armenian genocide story, other than the Armenian version.

    You think Armenians fail to recognize that there is another side to the story and are unwilling to engage in constructive argument/debate with Turks.

    You believe Armenians should be compensated monetarily but do not support land reparations.

    You believe Armenians should work to enhance their dialogue with Turks by first recognizing that Turks don’t see things our way and are immediately alienated by rhetoric that suggests that Turks have not evolved from their barbarian origins. 

     

  622. I believe that when someone does the right thing…and attempts to correct a wrong, especially one not done by they themselves, they should be encouraged, because it will (hopefully), lead them to do even more. That’s what a thank you is all about. It’s about someone taking the right step to reverse a wrong – not committed by him, but by previous governments.  A simple thank you costs you nothing, but can get you quite a bit in return.  It works in almost every environment, whether business or government, or just plain human interactions. It’s called gratitude. 

    And by the way, the way it works is that defendants and plaintiffs all show up in court to present their cases in front of impartial, objective judges and juries. They also all abide by the verdicts. This forum isn’t exactly that kind of courtroom, now, is it?  

  623. Gratitude is for those who actually deserve it Karekin.. Obviously Turkey has not earned that honor … so NO.. our President should not thank Turkey for their “kind” NOT act of returning our OWN properties…

    Gayane

  624. ‘…. but I believe your apology will be taken although it is noted that you avoided apologizing directly in response to Avery’s incessant demands. Just imagine what hysteria you’d wind up if any Armenian poster used such words with regards to the Turks.’ (Gor)
      
    Gor accepts Mr. Naess’s half-hearted non-apology for using the expression ‘disposed of’ when referring to our exterminated ancestors, albeit with an appropriate caveat. Gor is a  magnanimous man. I am several rungs below  his level of magnanimity…for certain type of people.
     
     
    Read the non-apology again: I am sorry if you felt offended by my words “inbred” and “disposed of”. I will be more careful with my language in the future.’  (Naess)
    Naess is  placing the  burden on Gor for presumably being overly sensitive. It is Gor who is at fault here for being offended. Really.
    No heartfelt, genuine  apology is offered to the Armenian People, to the Armenian readers of  ArmenianWeekly –   for the viciously Anti-Armenian insult.
    The problem is apparently with Gor: he (or Avery) gets offended too easily.
     
     
    I don’t accept Mr.  Naess’s  non-apology.
     
     
    Here is why. I would never allow myself to refer to even dead Turk soldiers as if they are garbage. Numerous other adjectives, but not ‘garbage’.
    Would anybody else in our camp, even the most hurt amongst us,
    allow themselves to call  dead Turk soldiers, much less  dead Turk civilians,
     ‘garbage’ (in so many words) ? 
    Yet this person refers to our innocent murdered children and babies as if they are garbage: forgive him ? When Hell freezes over, and not even then.
    It is a clear manifestation of  his deep hatred for Armenians. It is a “tell”. He despises Armenians. Everything else written by him is a standard illusionist trick: distraction on the one side, while real action goes on the opposite side.
     
     
    This person pretends he feels sorry. He isn’t: I know the type. He is just saying it, so that he can continue his ‘debates’ without some of us being in his face  every time he appears.
    That  refined procedure  of ours gets on one’s nerves after a while: it is not pleasant, they want it to  go away; so they come up with a limp excuse, some phony explanation. (many of you know some of  the lucky recipients of this successful  behaviour-modification treatment).
    They love posting at AW and engaging in enjoyable intellectual debates with knowledgeable and (too) tolerant Armenians.
    It’s a lot of fun, plus they can advance their Denialist agenda on the side.  Why not ? It’s a win-win for them.
     
     
    Boyajian already noted that it feels like she is on a merry-go-round with Naess.
    So what’s  the point of going round and round and round….and round  with this guy ?
    What is to be accomplished ?
    Does any Armenian  here really believe he/she  will be able to convince him to see things your/our way ? Will pigs ever fly ?
    Have any of you been able to convert any Denialist Turk or Turcophile by your efforts on these pages ? A single individual ?
    Even the rare ones  who apparently  accept the fact of AG on their own, want something in exchange for accepting it, e.g.  Armenians accepting the “suffering of Turks”.
    How would  that be different from Germans conditioning their acceptance of the Holocaust based on Jews’ acceptance of  “German suffering” – if they were to do so  ?
    Undoubtedly Germans suffered massively (e.g. firebombing of  Dresden), but what does that have to do with the Holocaust ?
     
     
    Now maybe there is a good reason Boyajian, Gor, and many others are debating Mr Naess over a span of hundreds   of posts. I just don’t see it.
    Obviously it hasn’t worked over a year of trying, so why bother. I believe a while back, our compatriot Anahit went through the same grinder for months – with identical results. So maybe my other compatriots can explain what is hoped  to be accomplished endlessly debating  with Mr. Naess. I’d be interested to know.
     
     

    As noted many times before, I firmly believe in confronting and countering the Denialist type every time and everywhere. And to use the opportunity to disseminate facts otherwise little known by the wider audience. [ Gor’s insert about estimated 15,000 Bulgarians massacred by Turks  is a good example (I didn’t know).]
     
     
    But why debate the AG – even at the periphery ? When we Armenians debate the  AG with the Denialists, we are playing their game. We are letting them set the agenda. Why give them any room at all ? Jews would never, ever allow anyone to even come close to discussing the veracity of the Holocaust. Never.  It is a mystery to me why so many Armenians are still trying to convince whoever. What the  heck for ?  Why do you need approval from them ? Who are they ? Let them bow and scrape for forgiveness for engaging in Denial.
     
     
    It’s  done. Enough debating.  It has been proven. A hundred times over. The recent revelation alone that Turks have been scrubbing and purging their archives should end any discussion. The ones who question it now or want to debate it now are the unrepentant, incorrigible Denialist Enemy. Shout them down. Don’t let them open their denialist  mouths. Block them at every turn. Drive them into a corner.  Force them to cower in shame and humiliation. Don’t debate – Denounce. Let me repeat: NO Jew would ever allow even a wisp of discussion around the historical fact of  the Jewish Holocaust. EVER.
    People are put in jail for denying it. Yet Armenians in their infinite tolerance and magnanimity allow themselves to be inadvertently ensnared  into the web of deceit and denial. I don’t get it.

  625. Robert.. AND I answered you many times.. so get off my case.. as your debate means nothing to me.. like you mean nothing to me..God….. talk about fixation….

    Oh another thing Robert…the debate you cry about has been done and many times over….the conclusion was you were disrespectful not only to my brutally murdered ancestors but also to us.. and you know why.. so instead of trying to sound intelligent by saying lets debate (I still don’t understand your obsession with this word and with me….like debating is goin to change the fact that you are someone who is very Anti-ARmenian…. you already have all the facts Robert…all of it… so stop this show ROBERT 1, 2, 3, or 4 or whatever number you are…… Turkey will face her demons and get over it.. sooner or later.. you might want to do the same Robert.. maybe then we can have a decent and honest conversation.. but until then I see you nothing but a denialists who tries in every way to cook up misinformation and chaos on these pages.. 

    Gayane        

  626. Avery jan- WELL SAID…

    I am sooo greateful for Gor.. to the depths of all ends for holding up the fight with Ragnar and/or all Denialists on these pages … and I say more power to him if he wants to continue.. because everytime Ragnar opens up a crack in our fight for justice, Gor immediately fixes it with STRONG FACTS AND DATA.. something Denialists can’t produce or Turkophiles can’t support…  

    Avery jan- you will LOVE Robert’s persistence on debating me…karta… merel ei xndaluts.. lol 

  627. right Gayane, I am sure you were waiting with baited breath for the rare opportunity to ‘debate’ one of the ‘Roberts’. Such an honor. 

  628. Karekin, No never, I don’t agree for Sarkissian calling Gul and thanking him, for what?  Their defeitist gov’t murdered our nation along with our cultural heritage and then confiscated all our lands, they owe us BIG time and there is no reason whatsoever to thank a gov’t that didn’t pay us back nothing yet and they still deny the Armenian Genocide.  I and along with me most Armenians were furious when Gul went to Armenia and our soccer team took off the Ararat emblem from their shirts, our Ararat that is the essence of our faith and our Armenianess.  Sarkissian kissed Gul plenty already during the defeitist protocol times, when indeed they didn’t deserve nothing of the sort.  The same as Avery has mentioned, Armenia and Sarkissian must stay put and the Turks who murdered our nation must come to us apologizing and returning everything that was confiscated after annihilating almost all our unarmed civilian population.  We have to stay put, strong, brave and confident, it’s their turn to pay us up fully.  And the world is watching.

  629. Several years ago, my car was stolen….it was found by the police. I had to pay to have it towed to my mechanic for some serious repairs.  Needless to say, I was quite upset about it all. Now, if the thief had driven it to my door and apologized for stealing it, maybe I would still have been angry, but probably less so.  Unfortunately, the last time I checked, not one government on the planet has pushed Turkey to return anything to Armenians or to reverse the appropriations law. That’s because most governments, including that of the US, are governing over stolen property on a massive scale.  The world has had 95 years to apply pressure, but it’s not happened.  People living in glass houses are very reluctant to throw stones. 

    The return of minority properties has come about as a result of significant internal changes within Turkey’s political establishment, and for that, yes, you should be appreciative and thankful, because without them, the (horrible) status quo would have remained. Every major human change needs a catalyst to put things in motion, whether it’s in a good direction or otherwise. This time, the Armenian community in Turkey is benefiting in a way they haven’t in many, many years.  No, it’s not perfect by any stretch, but it is a major improvement and I’m very surprised you don’t see it that way.  As they say, every journey begins with one step. We need to keep that in mind.

  630. Avery, on another thread on this site some one stated about Armenians:
    “Damned if we do and damned if we don’t.  I say we do! 

    I share your anger and frustration with the genocide deniers and the predicament they put us in.  What do we do with them? Do we ignore them?  Do we refuse to engage with them?  Should we debate and argue with them. Do we curse them?  Make voodoo dolls (tried, doesn’t work)? Should we expose them as opportunists or evil doers?  Write to the newspapers.  All of the above?  None of the above?  

    I lean toward doing something.  I see that you do too.  And Gor, Gayane, Seervart, etc., Each in our own way.

  631. Ragnar,your ‘disposed of’ was very insulting & no common sensed man
    & specially a person such as you could use it unintentionally.
    Since then I’ve stopped reading your comments.

     

  632. Make no mistake – I am not challenging the genocide or any aspect of it. I am challenging the status quo of the last 95 years in Turkey that has led to the diminishment of the Armenian community. I see the return of Armenian properties as an important admission of their government’s past mistakes and criminality. This is a huge change of mindset being translated into positive action on our behalf. To this point, it does not go far enough, of course, but reversing even some bad laws that have been in place for many years and which were highly discriminatory to the point where people felt the need to leave their lands and homes is a major precedent we really cannot ignore.  It is good for the Armenian community. That’s all that really counts, but it is also good for Turkey…which I’m sure you realize, is also good for the Armenian community living there. 

  633. Karekin, I am not saying that when I saw these articles in here I wasn’t happy about it, yes I was that they are finally starting to turn around, and I am not denying the fact that when for so many years the Turkish gov’t tried to commit cultural genocide on Armenians after 1915 are not starting to come around; but how could this suffise after 96 years of denial of genocide and of cultural genocide towards Armenians?  Surely you can understand that although the payup has started but in no way near it, and we don’t have to thank them for it.  Our nation has suffered the very most, because not only we were near wiped out; but we were also denied of our sweet lands that belonged and was part of us and of our existence for more than 5 thousand years along with our cultural monuments that should have been the pride and joy not only for the Armenians, but for the world as well that it has been almost totally destructed.  Thanks to the Turks, or rather the Turkish governments of the past 96 years.  Out of the two, I find Abdullah Gul the more sane one and the more somewhat sympathetic towards Armenia and Armenians, but certainly not Davutoglu as he is more the fascist one out of the two.  Nevertheless, when CHP deputy Canan Aritman claimed that Gul’s mother is of Armenian origin, not only he denied it but he sued Aritman for it.  Now I understand that the ideology in Turkey is such that they’re still in denial of the AG and he is afraid of both his position and of the more Islam fundamentalists; but the fact remains that he even went as far as suing Aritman.  The fact is that yes it has started to change a little bit, but it’s not nearly enough whatsoever and certainly not to thank them for it, not now nor in the future.  For almost 100 years now they’ve changed the Armenian names of all the cities and the towns in Turkey and they never mentioned that any monument was created by Armenians nor Armenians ever lived in today’s Turkey.  But someone on these columns also said that trying to give back our buildings is the tip of the iceberg. 
    I happen to go along with that statement.

  634. While I sympathize with Seervart and share her emotions, I have to say that we lose nothing by saying thank you for even small gains.  It underlines the fact that the small gesture was the right thing to do, and a correction of a previous wrong; but it doesn’t mean we relinquish our right to ask for more.  Plus graciousness is its own reward.   Should a full helping of justice come our way someday, it will most likely come in small bits at a time.  We need to acknowledge and appreciate every step in the right direction as we patiently and tenaciously push forward toward our ultimate goal: justice for our martyrs and for our nation.  When that day comes, we will all have to give up our anger and animosity toward Turkey and live in peace.  It is probably easier to let that happen in small bits, too.  This is the opening of a door.  See the light?  Let it fall on all of us, Turks and Armenians.

  635. Avery,    I share your indignation and frustration with the Turkish or Turkophile denialists. I post here because I know I can beat one such denialist, jr scholar/practitioner/jurisprudent mr ragnar naess on historical issues. I also know that this publication is being screened by government agencies, domestic and foreign, and read by many visitors. To me, to leave naess’s fabrications unanswered would mean to inadvertently assist in his spreading anti-Armenian propaganda. Pigs will never fly, and I’m not naïve not to understand that naess will never switch camps. But I see my contribution in methodically knocking into the denialists’ heads that there will always be someone anywhere they crop up to haunt them.
     
    re: “No Jew would ever allow even a wisp of discussion around the historical fact of the Jewish Holocaust. Ever.”     Yes, but they do so from stronger positions as compared to the Armenians: their genocide has been acknowledged by the perpetrators and reparations are being paid annually. Besides, the perpetrators of their genocide are civilized modern Germans capable of remorse and repentance. Ours are unrepentant, haughty, and egomaniac Turks: former brutal colonizers, occupiers, and nomadic invaders.
     
    re: ragnar naess’s ‘apology’: ‘I am sorry if you felt offended by my words “inbred” and “disposed of”. I will be more careful with my language in the future.’    I see it as a half-apology, not a non-apology. I personally took it as is, because this is not the first time ragnar naess apologized. I know he’s capable of apologizing, and one must value this in his enemy or opponent. Magnanimity and forgiveness towards enemies is also a weapon.  Got Christ?

  636. Boyajian, Karekin,     while I can be magnanimous in accepting an apology or a half-apology and forgive an enemy in a Christ-like manner, I nonetheless think we should be careful when it comes to saying ‘thank you’ to the Turks for their small, insignificant overtures. Had we known that Turks started making corrections of their previous wrongs out of the feelings of remorse and repentance, I’d say we should be similarly forthcoming. But we know that Turks make these overtures out of political considerations and under international pressure. Knowing this, why should we thank them for every small bit in correcting their own crime of physical extermination of a whole nation? In this, I agree with Avery, Seervart, et al.

  637. Hello Boyajian, Frankly I am not an unthankful soul, because I am; but it has been a very lengthy and patiently waiting period for all of us for us to be recognized from our unbelievable pains of our martyred people and for us too, then I keep remembering that our martyrs were the ones who in the belief of Christiandom they turned the other cheek and what did they get in return?  A horrific painful death of a nation along with our cultural lengthy existence that was demolished in its entirety.  It is very hard for all of us to turn the other cheek and be meek and giving in again when we know what has happened to our people and to us because we did that.

  638. Gor jan, You know where I am coming from.  I thank you for knowing it only too well why I feel the way I do, that I don’t feel confident in their actions as I don’t see much remorse on their part.  If they did, then they would have accepted the AG and have given us an apology by now.  I have seen it just within the past five or so years how they speak with both ends of their mouth.  After that, how can I intelligently feel they they really mean well for us.

  639. I personally don’t agree on thanking a country who stole my property and kept it for 96 years and finally AFTER continueous poking, probing, pushing, pulling, that country decides to give me back VERY VERY VRY VERY VERY VERY VERY small part of what is owed to me.. HECK NO…

    I hear you Karekin, and even Boyajian jan (even though I would not at all put Boyajian along the lines with Karekin..this is just to tell my side).. totally understand what you are trying to say but I can’t get my heart to accept the fact that the robber of our wealth and souls is still enjoying it without any remorse and wants to throw crumbs in front of us to say SEE, I STILL HAVE CONTROL OVER YOU PEOPLE and HISTORY… YOU NEED TO BOW TO ME because i decided to do this for you.. and I say to that HELL YOU WILL… it is hard.. very hard.. but the reality remains, Turkey is playing with us and with the world and if we encourage that by thanking for an action that should have happened 96 years ago is just a step to fuel their ego and boast their stand on the world’s arena.. can’t happen… so sorry… 

    If we should thank Turkey, we should thank Turkey IF she decides to turn herself into a fair, democratic nation.. we should thank Turkey IF Turkey changes her ideologies and how she treats minorities, we should thank Turkey IF they decide to reach out and give a hand to help her neighbors WITHOUT persistance of others… we should THANK TURKEY for an action that is taken entirely on HER OWN and not because they were made to do… why should we thank Turkey for something they could have done years and years ago but because now they feel the burning tip of pressure from the world, they decided to cover our eyes with their sly gesture.. i don’t agree with that and i am sorry they will not get a thank you from me..

    but i can’t wait to the day when I CAN say thank you to Turkey WHOLEHEARTEDLY… i definintely looking forward to that day…     

    Gayane

  640. Gor, point taken.   But don’t lump me together with Karekin (though I agree with him on some things lately.)  There is a subtle difference between us.   I am not so much interested in issuing a direct thank you to the Turks as I am in Armenians acknowledging our successes and small victories.  It is a mindset of a winner to be aware of each step while looking toward the finish line.  I agree that the Turks are responding to political pressure and have not matured enough as a society to recognize the need for remorse and repentance.  But I am grateful for this slight step forward (the tip of the iceberg) and hopeful for more pressure, more concessions on their part, and more gains on our part.  I doubt they will make such changes without political and international pressure.   Mostly, I thank God.   To Turkey I say, I appreciate the fact that these properties are being returned and await the return of or compensation for the rest.  

  641. Seervart says: how could this suffise after 96 years of denial of genocide and of cultural genocide towards Armenians?  The answer is that it doesn’t – not even close!  But…Boyajian is right to say that  ‘the small gesture was the right thing to do, and a correction of a previous wrong; but it doesn’t mean we relinquish our right to ask for more.  Plus graciousness is its own reward.’  After being denied so much for so long, I believe there is reason to celebrate this, however small it might be in the larger context, because we have to have hope and be optimistic that it will lead to even more positive outcomes. Boyajian had a very good comment – This is the opening of a door.  See the light?  Let it fall on all of us, Turks and Armenians.  I could not agree more, and of course, time will tell. The reality is that any positive outcome will have to come from Turkey itself, not from outside or foreign pressure (which has never been effective or ongoing, anyways), so let’s encourage the good, challenge the bad and keep on going. The goal is a win-win all around. 

  642. Hi Seervart.  I am confused by the comments I am getting.  Turn the other cheek?  Give in?  Be meek?  I don’t think I said any of that.  Believe me, I am a fighter, in it for the long haul, but a good fighter knows how to pace things.   We have to win many battles along the road to winning the war.  And each battle won is one step closer to winning the whole thing, but you can’t gain strength from the small victory if you don’t take notice of it.  Back down?  Give in?  Be meek?  No.

  643. Thanks, Karekin!

    And thanks, Gayane.  You can’t get lumped in anywhere, either.  You are definitely in a class of your own, and I love you for it.  I agree with your heart, 100%

  644. Sorry, Boyajian,     I didn’t mean to lump you together with Karekin. It looked so because on a single subject both of you happenned to express similar views. But I know that your views differ on many other, more fundamental, issues.

  645. Karekin- no one is saying we are not happy, we are not thrilled to see some movement,  we are not optimistic but don’t expect me to say thank you to Turkey .. not just yet… We should not say thank you under these circumstances.. that is all we are saying.

  646. ragnar naess,     we disagree because you stubbornly refuse to accept the historical fact that although Turks of Bulgaria were civilians, the atrocities committed against them did not fall on them as pandemonium, as in the case of the Armenians, but because ethnically they represented a civilian element of a party to the war. Before the declaration of war by Russia in 1877, Turkish bashi-bazouks, true to their savage reputation, brutally suppressed the Bulgarian national liberation uprising, making no distinction between rebels and passive Bulgarian peasants, read: civilians. It is estimated by Dennis Hupchick in “The Balkans: From Constantinople to Communism” and Kurt Jonassohn in “Genocide and Gross Human Rights Violations: In Comparative Perspective”, that some 15,000 Bulgarian civilians were massacred by the Turks in 1876. According to these authors, in the Bulgarian villages of Batak and Perushtitsa, where the majority of the population was also massacred or burnt alive, none of the civilians had participated in the uprising. Many of the perpetrators of those massacres were later decorated by the Ottoman high command.

    What do you mean by it has nothing to do with the question of what was done to the Turks? What kind of weird logic is this? You mean to say whatever the Turks did—massacred, burnt and buried alive, mutilated, tortured, etc.—to the Bulgarian civilians that ignited the Russo-Turkish war had nothing to do with the reciprocal atrocities against Turkish civilians? Well, dead wrong: the latter was the consequence of the former.
     
    MCarthy’s “Death and Exile” has been disputed by such reputable scholars as Yair Auron, Colin  Imber, Mark Mazower, and Richard Hovannisian. Also noted is the extended title of McCarthy’s book: “The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922.” Although ethnic cleansing is of and by itself an exaggeration, but even this Turkish sell-out didn’t dare to call wartime atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks a genocide, as you do. Thought-provoking, isn’t it?

  647. Oh yes indeed Gor jan… yes indeed.. very thought provoking… you think this will provoke Ragnar’s thought?? I doubt it but at least he has something to educate himself on Bulgarians and their fight for justice like Armenians did…

    I wish he could meet my grandma-in-law to hear her horrible and frightening stories when she was just a kid during those horrible times… maybe then he can find it in his heart to let go of his scientific stuff and concentrate on what is moral and right for once…

    Gayane    

  648. To be thankful for crumbs given back,which were originally mine?
    This step is just a Turkish trick & is not meant for us the minorities.It’s just a paint coat to brighten a muddied image & a move in their EU negotiations.
    Even if the whole bundle is given back I will never be thankful.I’m the one who has lived his whole life outside his homeland… & be thankful to them?Over my dead body.

  649. gor

    you write: MCarthy’s “Death and Exile” has been disputed by such reputable scholars as Yair Auron, Colin  Imber, Mark Mazower, and Richard Hovannisian. unquote. If you have any references I’d be happy. Needless to say there is no book which cannot be criticized on some point.  To ,my mind MCarthy is quite sober here, he mentions the massacres  of Bulgarian villagers done by the bashi-bozouks, atrocities committed by Ottoman army units. The point in my reasoning that is essential is 1) the death toll among Turks in Bularia, 2) the circumstances of flight pf these Turks (mentioned by the some 20 most important European newspapers) 

  650. Monastras
    sorry for misspelling your name in one of my posts, I was in a haste….
    I have not heard from you lately. I applaud the fact that you are here and engage in discussion because I believe every Turk should go into these dark aspects of the Turkish past much more throough and with a much more open mind that what I usually see. I am no enemy of the Turks, I have many Turkish friends both here in Norway and in Turkey. I have been working to dispell unjust criticism and negative views on Turks and Turkey. But I nearly always disagree with them on the question of what happened to the Armenians in 1915-16. The treatment in nearly all Turkish history books is onesided or outright false, even of I hesitate to use this word because I believe most authors believe in what they write. I know both from personal experience and from Norwegian handling of criticism of Norwegian practices that it is difficult to go into the black spots of the past, but isnt it necessary to become a truky democratic society? The thesis you put forward – that a major part of the deportaitons happened against the will of the central CUP is as i said quite new to me, and I wait for documentation. That Armenians were deported from areas that were far away from war zones, and that Armenian communities who never lifted one finger against the state were deported is one of the facts that puts the burden of proof on the Turkish side regarding the question of genocide. Other important points are 1) the admission of Talaat that they for political reasons, not to antagonise the Kurds, did not prosecute many perpetrators. This wilful omission must have  functoned as a signal to the local people that relocated Armenians was a legitimate prey, their lives, their honour, their posessions. 2) as Fuad Dündar recently has documented in his works, and Armenian historians routinely have pointed out, the number of Armenians to be resettled was much too big for the area designed by the CUP orders and  laws you mention. It was too big in absolute numbers for the area south of Urfa, Zor, parts of the hinterland of Damascus and so on. it was greatly to much if the decision that Armenians were to compose only 10% or 50% of the population where they were to be settled should be observed (needless to say a great number were never settled but perished on the way or in massacres) How is this to be explained? What was to become of the Armenians who did not fit into these plans be sheer numbers, assuming that the plans were sincere? 3) actual reports indicate that very few perpetrators at all where punished, although Turkish historians now produce some new documents that must be scrutinized by central genocide researchers, 4) Christian Gerlach has gone through the budgets of IAMM, the agency that organised both the resettlement of Muslims refugees from the Balkans and the deported Armenians, and he found that the sums allotted to Muslim refugees – according to the total number of refugees and relocated Armenians – was 70 times a big as the money accorded to the Armenians. 70 times as big !!!That is the calculated amount for each person. He said this in a seminar I organised in Oslo last year, I have not yet found his writing on this. What is one to believe about such a difference even if it may be somewhat exaggerated? What does it say about the mindset and intent of the leading ittihadists and Talat Pasha who was the minister of Interior at the time?      

  651. Dear  Great Armenian Scholar
     You wrote
    ragnar naess,     we disagree because you stubbornly refuse to accept the historical fact that although Turks of Bulgaria were civilians, the atrocities committed against them did not fall on them as pandemonium, as in the case of the Armenians, but because ethnically they represented a civilian element of a party to the war. 

    Armenians were exactly the same that’s why they were deported 

  652. You wrote: “Armenians were exactly the same (a civilian element of a party to the war) that’s why they were deported.” Kindly enlighten us, based on Turkish schoolbooks, as to what war with Turkey Armenia was a party to so that 2 mln Armenian civilians, ethnically representing a civil element of that party, were subjected to forced deportations and slaughters en masse by the Turkish government? Also, kindly enlighten us as to whether according to the Turkish mentality forced deportations from ancient habitat and mass murder of a whole nation can suit an idiotic phrase “that’s why”.

  653. gor

    my point was not that bashi-bozouks and the Ottoman military did not massacre Bulgarians. They did. My point was the application of certain juridical formulas to the quite similar fate of innocent Turks who for some reason never figure in the writings of the genocide scholars.  Moral rules are universal, they apply to all people, dont they? By the way,both criminals and innocent people have rights according to the conventions of human rights. Are you not applying guilt and refusing rights to certain ethnic collectives? Is this in line with modern thinking on human rights?

  654. If you want the best compilation of contemporary  news accounts in the American press about the genocide, as it was happening and after, you need to find a copy of The Armenian Genocide, published by Richard Kloian in 1980. Everything you need is there in exhaustive, original detail. For those who want original source material, it is essential. 

    At the same time, for anyone to tout Lewy, McCarthy, Lewis and others of that circle as providing honest scholarship on the genocide is highly suspect, because these people have a well documented, stilted, partisan agenda to convey that seems to twist and ignore the facts of history in a decidedly anti-Armenian way.
    to promote.
      

  655. Bingo, ragnar naess,     since you now admit that McCarthy—who seems to represent the center of academic universe to you—mentions the massacres of Bulgarian villagers done by Turkish bashi-bozouks, then an elemental chronological analysis must tell you that the killings of the Bulgarian civilians of 1876 occurred before the reciprocal killings of the Turkish civilians of Bulgaria in 1877 and served as one of the major reasons for Russia’s entering, not “invasion”, the war against Turkey. Word of the bashi-bazouks‘ atrocities filtered to the world and eventually reports found way into newspapers in the West. News stories about Ottoman Turkish atrocities against Bulgarian Christians were reported by an American journalist MacGahan, who toured the stricken regions of the Bulgarian uprising and whose reports confirmed the savagery of the Turkish retribution against innocent Bulgarian civilians.
     
    The death toll among Turks in Bulgaria is not essential for an event to fall under the definition of genocide. How come you readily present your reasoning on the toll in the Turkish case, but never mentioned the toll of the Bulgarians? Doesn’t the genocide definition mention a deliberate destruction of a group “in whole or in part”? Then based on this, the death toll is not an essential factor. The circumstances of flight of the Bulgarian Turks were indeed mentioned by European newspapers and given due notice, but you repeat the same mistake: the killings and the flight of the Bulgarian Turks occurred in a wartime situation in which they represented the civilian component of the Ottoman Turkey, a party to the war, whereas the killings of the Bulgarian peasants occurred outside such situation. Any sober-minded historian would draw a parallel to make sure which side initiated the mass killings and which side retaliated. Clearly, it was the Ottoman Turks in their best murderous tradition that started mass killings of the Bulgarians.
     
    And here are the references that disputed McCarthy’s work, to make you happy:
     
    Mann, Michael. The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing, 2005  [in which Mann warns: “figures are derived from McCarthy (1995: I 91, 162-4, 339), who is often viewed as a scholar on the Turkish side of the debate“]
     
    Hovannisian, Richard. Denial of the Armenian Genocide in Comparison with Holocaust Denial in Remembrance and Denial: The Case of the Armenian Genocide. Richard G. Hovannisian (ed.), 1999
     
    Roshwald, Aviel. Ethnic Nationalism and the Fall of Empires: Central Europe, Russia and the Middle East, 1914-1923, 2001  [in which Roshwald describes McCarthy’s version of the events as defensively pro-Turkish]
     
    Mazower, Mark. The Balkans: A Short History, 2002
     
    Reid, James J. Crisis of the Ottoman Empire: Prelude to Collapse 1839-1878, 2000
     
    Crampton, R.J. A Concise History of Bulgaria, 1997
     
    Campbell Argyll, George Douglas. The Eastern Question from the Treaty of Paris 1856 to the Treaty of Berlin 1878 and to the Second Afghan War, Vol. 2
     
    Vinton Greene, Francis. Report on the Russian Army and its Campaigns in Turkey in 1877-1878, 1879
     
    Dimitrov, Bozhidar. Russian-Turkish War 1877-1878, 2002

  656. Dear John oglu:   re: ‘….that’s why they were deported’

    I am not the Great American Scholar you are referring to. I am not much of a scholar, great or not. Our humble compatriot Gor is apparently the lucky gyavur that has the honor of being noticed by  your Excellency  the Grand Vizier. 

    But since you are a Great Denialist Turk, have you asked yourself what happened to the estimated 2-2.5 million Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire in 1915 ? Where did they disappear to ?

    And if Armenians were simply deported, why is your Turkish government furiously trying to scrub and purge their official archives pertaining to the era: what is it that they are trying to hide ? A simple deportation or something more sinister ?  Why would they  try to hide it if it was only a deportation ?

  657. ragnar naess,    there’s no need to beat around the bush. Your point, when we discussed the ICTJ’s four-point resolution acknowledging the Turkish crime against Armenians as genocide, was that the Bulgarian Turks in the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78 “also suffered genocide”. Turkish bashi-bozouks and the Ottoman military massacring Bulgarians was brought by me to remind you that before wartime atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks, Turks themselves committed massacres of the Bulgarian civilians. My objection is not with regards to the fact that Turkish civilians were also killed during the war. I categorically denounce your attempts to juxtapose massacres of people during a war in which they represented a civilian component of a party to a war and the deliberate genocidal extermination of Ottoman Armenians, who were detached, disconnected from any war theatre, perpetrated not by another party to a war, but by their own government.  Pardon me, if you don’t get it, then you don’t get it. Or you don’t want to get it. Or both…
     
    P.S.  An afterthought: if you think you’re not applying guilt and refusing rights to certain ethnic collectives and your reasoning is fully in line with modern thinking on human rights, why haven’t you for once mentioned the fate of the Bulgarian civilians who were massacred by the Turks before the 1877 war and the possible applicability of the ICTJ resolution to their fate? Why only and solely Turks? Obsession or Turko-centrism? Are you sure you’re not applying guilt and refusing rights to certain ethnic collectives except the Turks? Is this in line with modern thinking on universal human rights?

  658. Gayane,

    No, you never did answer me in this regard, as you claim. But okay. I respect your decision to turn down my request for a debate (FYI, no major debate was ever done to set the record straight. Requests were made to ANCA and the ARF party for two decades. Each time they refused, giving a variety of typically lame excuses [the reality being of course, that they can’t debate for fear of the truth coming forth]). Your “excuses” are at best weak, and at worst an escapist attempt to face the truth. This is also refered to as being a denialist. So, there you have it Gayane. You’ve made it clear that you are a denialist, even though you and others charge us with that term on a constant basis. Trying to muddy the waters of truth will not work for very long. We have several plans that will soon go into effect, one of which will legally force the option for having a major debate AND the openning of your archives in Boston (even without the establishment of the Historical Commisson). If you should change your mind and be willing to stand up for yourself, then let me know. We’ll discuss the terms of the debate that will be satisfactory to us both. Until then, you know that the majority of the claims made by you and the others just don’t stand up to muster. If you think that I’m wrong, then my invitational challenge for a debate with you is still on the table. I’ll be around.   

  659. Hi VTiger.
    You wrote:  “To be thankful for crumbs given back,which were originally mine?
    This step is just a Turkish trick & is not meant for us the minorities.It’s just a paint coat to brighten a muddied image & a move in their EU negotiations.

    I really do understand this viewpoint.  Why say thank you for the return of our lands designed to please others politically and not out of a change of heart or honest remorse?  Why say thanks for Turks finally doing what should have been done long ago?  Why say thanks when whole generations of Armenians were forced to be separated from homeland and culture for 96 years.  Why say thanks when we have had to endure lies and accusations and excuses which malign millions of innocent people? Why say thanks when borders are still closed and Turkey still sides with Azeris against us when they could choose to be neutral, or even supportive, as a gesture of reconciliation. And why say thanks when the devastation to population, culture, heritage and language may be irreparably damaged and no effort to take responsibility for the damage is being made.   I get it.  

    But even this small “return” makes me feel hopeful, and for this I am grateful.   Maybe not to Turkey, but definitely to God, to our friends in the EU, to fair minded, courageous Turks who aren’t afraid to admit the truth and to my fellow Armenians who have never stopped trying to find justice for our grandparents.  I say thanks because I need to, because I can’t only feel anger and loss.  

  660. Ragnar– do you know why Monastras has not been on this page lately?????

    Well if one is proven to be lame in her reasons as to why a Genocide can happen and then get caught red handed about a statement she makes without confirming or denying, of course she will stay away.. why embarass herself even more… denialists don’t have room on these pages Ragnar.. if i were you, i would be honored and gracious that we have communicated with you for this long.. THANK GOD TO our friend GOR for his patience and Avery as well.. …

  661. Avery jan– you asked if I recorded my grandma’s story.. well she is my grandma-in-law.. My sister-in-law is the one who told me the few stories she heard her grandma tell.. grandma does not want to discuss or talk about those times that often.. grandma joined our family recently so i did not have a chance to sit with her and my sister-in-law so she can translate it for me (grandma only speaks Bulgarian)… that is something I will ask my sister-in-law to do .. this simple act of recording these stories is priceless…..However, I recorded my Armenian grandma’s story where she remembers her father telling her the story of his (only survivor from his family) survival from getting shot by the Turk General..as well as I have a chapter from a book where my grandfather’s dad’s story was published along with all the letters of those families he helped find their orphans from all over the world…i just need to sit down and translate.. it is hard because it is in old Armenian language.. Syrian Armenian but that is my goal… and I will complete it…

  662. Boyajian jan- i totally agree with this statement .. Absolutely.. I just could not agree with thanking Turkey for the returns of the churches.. and thought that is what you were saying and confirming with Karekin… the thought of thanking Turkish govt under such circumstances should NEVER cross in any Armenian mind.. however, your below statement is what every Armenian on these pages and out feels…
    But even this small “return” makes me feel hopeful, and for this I am grateful.   Maybe not to Turkey, but definitely to God, to our friends in the EU, to fair minded, courageous Turks who aren’t afraid to admit the truth and to my fellow Armenians who have never stopped trying to find justice for our grandparents.  I say thanks because I need to, because I can’t only feel anger and loss.  

  663. Robert the Turk: you said the following:

    Robert
    September 15, 2011

    Gayane,
    No, you never did answer me in this regard, as you claim

    not only you called me a liar but you also called me a denialists without strong evidence… is this your way of trying to look like you have the upper hand? is this how you show you a man??? huh? i laugh at you..this shows how weak of a person you are Robert…

    Here is the original chain … and like i asked you before GET OFF MY CASE and stop harassing me with your debate BS….

    YOUR ORIGINAL POST to me:
    Robert
    September 7, 2011
    Gayane,

    Let’s you and I debate! Consider this a challenge. You ought not to have any problems, since you obviously know everything, and of course we Turks are nothing but cold-blooded denialist killers anyway, while your people have NEVER hurt a single soul and have always been the angelic victims of the mean, blood-thirsty, oppressive Turk (no mention ever, of course, of oppressions upon your people from other empires)! What say you?  

    MY ORIGINAL REPLY TO YOUR POST ABOVE (the reply you explisitly said I NEVER did)
    gayane
    September 7, 2011

    I am sorry Robert.. Until I know which one of you is posting on these pages as you know you played with our minds and hearts ther will be no you and I… sorry….  until you apologize to all of us  for contineously insulting my ancestor’s memory by lying to us, you have no room to even address your comments to me….. 
    YOU need to stop referring us as if we are saying the regular Turks are cold-blooded killers..No one .. I REPEAT.. NO ONE on these pages ever said that ordinary Turks are cold -blooded murderers…however, we DID say that your ANCESTORS were INDEED all the things mentioned by you… fact is a fact.. please face it, embrace it, know it, and realize it… but I will say this though.. I never said I know EVERYTHING.. stop spreading lies yet again.. but i know this Robert.. I know this very well: YOU are a DENIALIST…no questions about it.. and I stand behind my word…… sorry Robert (Roberts… who knows which one is posting) for being upfront …..
    Gayane  
    P.S. Robert.. I am sorry that you are a bit slow in comprehending alot of information on these pages but EVERY SINGLE question or a statement that you posed in your comment have been answered and answered with great details.. we are not playing broken radio.. please go find those posts and you will get your answers… stop wasting our time with the same questions you have answers to…  

    WHO IS LYING NOW ROBERT????

    Gayane

  664. According to you Robert the Turk Armenians are afraid to debate and [the reality being of course, that they can’t debate for fear of the truth coming forth]).(your statement)

    Well if that is the case Robert… explain to me why Turkey has been on a mission for years now to purge and get rid of all evidence related to Genocide in YOUR TURKISH ARCHIVES….??? It is absolutely amazing that the denialists grew 10 inch tongues knowing their govt pretty much wiped out all the original evidence in their archives and now they feel they WANT or DEMAND a debate.. why did not you losers offer debate years ago when the archives were somewhat in tact and untouched and Armenians finally decided to face you monsters (denialists and Turkish govt..NOT THE ORDINARY TURKS… ) I know Robert and them other denialists or Turkophiles LOVE to jump on every chance they get to call us anit-Turkish .. I wanted to make this CRISPY CLEAR..repeat… NOT THE ORDINARY TURKS…. and now you are threatening us with opening the Boston’s archives whether or not we want or not?? hillarious to say the least… go ahead and open the Boston archives.. what are you trying to tell us by that??? don’t think you are scaring us with your plan Robert…

  665. Dear Ragnar
    The reference book is “The Armenian massacres in Ottoman Turkey” written by Guenter Lewy(page.205 and onward). You may even find further  references in the book or you can simply write or telephone him to get more info from him.
    You wrote 
     there are on the contrary a number of references about deportations from places like
    Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
    any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
    against the government. 

    If we believe that the local authorities also played an important role during the deportation, Why it is impossible for some local Authorities to deport the Armenian population from those areas? Do you think that the local army commanders did exactly what CUP instructed no more or more less? Can’t some of the local officials ignore or interpret the instructions from the Government in the way they like?
    I am sure more research should be done.But everything that the Armenians touch smells foul.The same can be said for the nationalist Turkish historians as well as ex-Marksist or extreme leftist people like Halil Berktay or Taner Akcam who only want to shoot turkey nothing else. You also said the Armenians doesn’t have to take their case to the ICJ. I am asking you why not? If the outcome will be in their favor. They will put an end to the denialism of Turkey. What prevent them to stay away from the ICJ? Doesn’t this show that I am not the only one who find their story dubious?
    I am almost certain if they had grabbed a peace of land from Turkey, there was going to no genocide remembrance day but instead they were going to have an independence day. It may sound harsh but this seem to be the bottom line of their story.

    I thank you very much reading my writing.

    Have a nice day

    MONASTRAS 

  666. Could you please kindly try to remember the name of the Armenian head Archivist who was appointed by the British in Istanbul and served 3 years during the occupation of Istanbul?Kazarian? Many thanks to the Great Armenian Scholar

  667. Boyajian

    Regarding your quesitons of my views, I will try to explain. I feel I have explained it  several times, but probably I did not do it well enough. at the moment I will only take one point, regarding cessation of Turkish territories. It is not right just to say that I am against this, as you say. there are areas that were densely populated with Armenians in 1914, and from an ethical point of view Armenian claims on Turkish territories cannot just be dismissed. We see that borders are redrawn sometimes, with the fall of the Soviet Union, the parting of the Czecks and Slovaks. Recently India and Bangladesh adjusted their borders. But there are several problems with the Armenian demands for territorial compensation. One is the existing population in the area, that is born there and would outnumber Armenians who might go there. It would not be right to expel these, and if they stay the “Armenian” lands would to a great extent be “Kurdish” and “Muslim”. To point to the situation several hundred years back would trigger questions from other peoples who were in majority on an area many hundred years back. We have the same situation with the Sami people on Norway. 400 years ago there were big areas with mainly Sami population, before the Norwegian settlement and state occupation of the area. But  only marginal Sami views rest on demands that Norwegians should leave areas in which Norwegians have lived for centuries. So I think that even if it is hard to deny Armenian claims from a purely ethical point of view, the question must also be adressed as a question of practical implementation in a world that will demand common rules, applying for everybody. Because of this I feel that the Armenian demands on land in today’s Turkey is more a symbolic than a realistic claim. One may of course agree with Harut Sassounian who a couple of years ago said that Armenians must be patient and stick to their demands, even if they appear as dreams. And in this situation I will just say that it does not sound as a realistic demand, or it is a demand that can only be met by creating new problems, as we see in the case of Israel and the Palestinians. But in view of the catatrophy befelling the Armenians through the genocide, I can understand the demand. 

              

  668. John, It is astonishing that you and your denialist friends here will say and do anything to get out of your government’s responsibility to the murder of the Armenian indigenous nation.

  669. Dear Monastras,
    yes, I found the text in Guenter Lewy’s book. He mentions orders from Talat from the end of August about halting the deportations, which all the same continued well into 1916, in spite of several more orders to stop the deportaitons. I have not checked the details, which Lewy does not give, but it appears that the great majority of Armenians that were deported, already were deported at that time, and were on the roads, or dead, or had arrived in their destination in Syria and Zor. So the alleged resistance of the CUP center anyhow came quite late, and represented no important check on the relocation. The problem with Lewy’s treatment is that he  makes no analysis in the face of what Armenian and other researchers say: that these orders were made for the foreign embassies and that the real orders told local officials to go on.  Hilmar Kaiser gives a very detailed description of the deportations from Erzurum. The local german consul was able to influence Talat to send telegrams about the security of the Armenian deportees, but he received continual news that massacres continued on the road from Erzurum to Bayburt and Erzincan and from there southwards to Malatya. So Lewy should have discussed this. What he in the end documents is that a number of written orders for the halting of the relocation actually was given. Unfortunately this is the weakness of Lewy, he is is simply intent on throwing doubt on the version of  the majority of historians, and in some instances he does this quite effectively – there are many weak points in their narrative – but he doesnt discuss the implicatipon of some facts. For instance, he holds that hardly any perpetrators ion massacres were punished, but he does not ask why this was so in  a serious way. And to my mind he does not document what you said: that a substantial part of the deportations happened in spite of the policy of the CUP center. If the order to stop deportations were sincere, it came too late to affect the great majority of the deportees, and he does not doscuss the question of the sincerity of the orders. Needless to say, official orders may be a smokescreen for other activities. This is not only a possibility in this case, but in much history writing. A historian must not rely on the documents of authorities suspected of duplicity. Possibly the orders from late august and onwards represented a sincere wish to spare innocent people, but I cannot see that Lewy documents this.  
     

  670. John-oghlu,     there’s really no need to demean yourself by addressing me as ‘great Armenian scholar’. I, for one, never claimed to be a scholar, least of all great, as opposed to jr historian/practitioner/jurisprudent ragnar naess. Your sarcasm only exhibits the primitivism of your mentality: in your little brainpan whoever states anything different from distortionist crap found in the Turkish textbooks or disseminated by the denialist state of Turkey merits sarcasm.
     
    It is also a general ethical norm of the civilized world—and I understand they may be unfamiliar with it in Turkey—to answer questions. I did reply to your initial post addressed to me, and, in turn, posed questions to you, as did another poster here, Avery. So, whenever you show reciprocity, as required in a civilized exchange of views—if you, as a Turk or Turkophile, know what it means—I’d be happy to answer your question re: an archivist in Constantinople during the Turkish defeat in the World War One.
     
    P.S.  If you have some kind of a psychological complex addressing people as ‘great’, go bow your head before the graves of ‘distinguished’ Great Turkish Assassins: Tallat, Enver, and Jemal. They were, indeed, ‘great’ in wiping out a whole nation from the face of the Earth. So bow your head and be happy to belong to the same ‘great’ ilk…

  671. Ragnar, I understand that you have sympathy for those Kurds and Turks who live on lands that are the traditional home of the Armenians.  After the forced absence of Armenians for 100 years, they now view these lands as their own.  It is important to take their rights into consideration, but not at the further deprivation of the Armenians.  I don’t have a crystal ball and couldn’t tell you how we will solve this complex issue, but I believe with the right spirit of respect, compassion, and compromise from all parties, a solution can be found.  In this way I agree with Harut Sassounian, and I am not ready to give up what you might consider an unrealistic dream.  Further, you assume that Armenians would expel (or worse) all Kurds and Muslims, and create our own version of the Gaza Strip and West Bank.  Here I think you are being limited by prejudice and lack of imagination.  Reconciliation and mutual respect can go a long way to solving age old problems.  And we can’t hope to achieve these high ideals unless we first dream of them and then strive for them.   First Turkey, Kurds and Armenians must agree that reparations of some sort are due to the Armenians.  That is the beginning.  Then compromise and concessions come into play.  We Armenians have to hang on to this belief, or simply succumb to the last blows of the genocide that was set in motion by Turkey,  and slowly die out along with other forgotten nations long gone.  In my mind, Turkey owes the world, not just us, an admission of guilt and a show of remorse in the form of monetary and territorial concessions to the Republic of Armenia.  Perhaps the Treaty of Sevres boundaries can never be achieved, but you have to start somewhere.

  672. Gor, how can Ragnar possibly continue arguing for parity between what happened to Bulgarian Turks and Ottoman Armenians without also recognizing Turkish atrocities against Bulgarian Christians, which came first?  One question: Are ‘Bulgarian Turks’ ethnic Bulgarians who were converted to Islam or are they ethnic Turks living within the Bulgarian territories or both?  And who were the Turks who attacked the Bulgarian Christians?  Were they ethnic Bulgarian Muslims or ethnic Turks.  Pardon my ignorance of this history.

    Ragnar, it does appear that you are still overly influenced by the Turkish revisionists, though I appreciate the increased balance in your recent posts to Monastras.

    Monastras, I think your loyalty to your government is clouding your thinking.  Even if local Ottoman governors carried out acts on their own, against Armenian civilians, and even if these acts were against the wishes of the CUP, who is ultimately responsible for the murder and displacement of 2 to 2.5 million Armenians?  Who should take responsibility for this crime? No one?  No handful of village governors could have carried out such uniform destruction to an entire population without at the very least, the depraved indifference of the ruling national government.  And countless researchers have shown that depraved indifference was not the case.  Don’t be so blind.  

  673. Both, Boyajian.    Turks in Bulgaria are descendants of Turkic settlers who came from Asia Minor across the narrows of the Dardanelles and the Bosporus following the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans in the 14th-15th centuries. Turks in Bulgaria are also Bulgarian Christians who were forcibly converted to Islam (in the best Turkish ‘tradition’ as we, Armenians, know full well) by the Turks and became Turkified during the centuries of Ottoman rule. Some fragments of the Turks in Bulgaria may be descendants of earlier Turkic tribes of Cuman, Pecheneg, and Oğuz, that originated in Central Asia and then moved to the areas near the Volga River, and to the lands between northern Caspian and Aral seas. These tribes are mentioned in almost any scholarly account on the medieval Khazaria, a Turkic state that existed in areas adjacent to northern Caucasus and northern Caspian, with which Armenians, too, had bitter encounters (Khazars were the enigmatic people who voluntarily converted to Judaism nationwide. Some theories hold that the European Jewry is actually the descendants of the Judaized Khazars, not the Egyptian and Palestinian Jews).
     
    Turks in Bulgaria became an ethnic minority when the principality of Bulgaria was established after the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78 to which ragnar naess so loves to refer when making absurd comparisons with the fate of the Armenians. Before the war, because Ottomans lacked adequate regular troops in Bulgaria, they ordered irregular bashi-bazouks to attack Christians to quell the Bulgarian national liberation uprising of 1876.  Bashi-bazouks were drawn from Muslim inhabitants of the Bulgarian regions, who were ethnic Turks, Circassian refugees expelled from the Caucasus, or Crimean Tatar refugees expelled during the Crimean War. According to American missionaries’ estimates, as many as 15,000 defenseless Bulgarian villagers had been slaughtered by these fanatical Muslims. Bulgarian historians give estimates from 30,000 to 100,000 people.

  674. Boyajian,

    you fail to see that my judgement about the Bulgarian Turks is a limited, formal appraisal of the mortality and the type of crime that produced it. It has nothing to do with positing the events in a historical framework. The atrocities against the Bulgarian, yes, they happened, but they were not my theme  this time.

  675. Ragnar

    Now you can answer my other questions.I understand that Lewy appears to make it short however, you should be able to find may references from him or his book.This guy is nearly 90 years old and a respected American scholar. If you followed the news you should know his latest story with the Armenians.
    Boyajian
    I do not care about what the government or the Turkish historians say. I am only trying to understand the details and the logic of the Armenians. As far as I understand from all these coversations, sevres treaty, land claims etc. I can assure you there will be no peace between the Turks and the Armenians in the future. I seriously think that the Armenians aren’t wise enough to understand their position. Bear in mind that Armenia was also created with the approval of Turks. You can sit back in your office in USA and dream all day long but the more this sort of claims find more space in the Armenians mind the more danger lurk at the neck of Armenia. You must also remember that Turks in turkey are extremely angry with Armenia as she carried out and unprovoked attack to her neighbour so If it gets to the points that the tension escalates, I do not think that Russia will be able to save the Armenian nation. I hope every body think and act wisely

  676. boyajian

    you write:
    Further, you assume that Armenians would expel (or worse) all Kurds and Muslims, and create our own version of the Gaza Strip and West Bank.  unquote.

    No, I dont. Where did i write that?  

    And I am not more balanced. I say what has been my opinion the whole time. Only this time I discuss with a Turk.   
      

  677. good post Boyajian (‘, I understand that you have sympathy…’). Well said.

    If Armenians had listened to the advice of foreigners in 1988 as to what is realistic or not, what is possible or not, there would be no Free and Independent Artsakh today.

     

  678. It is sooo hillarious to read Monastras Anti-Armenian and denialist comments… truly amazing to see how she continues to show her primitive and under priviladged knowledge of the history.. Someone who references Lewy as her guide to history is automatically disqualified.. Lewy is Turkey’s bought out historian/writer  and it is sooo obvious that his work is only referenced by denialists and Turkophiles… how convenience and stupid….

    Gayane

  679. John-oglu (I still don’t get why you are hiding behind such a Christian name as John)  i would suggest you joining Monastras, Kurt, Robert and every denialist on these pages and do read a book written or published other than your Turkish govt or Turkish bought out writers.. maybe JUST MAYBE you may learn or educate yourself enough so that you don’t ask dumb questions or make outrageous statements….

  680. Boyajian…as much as it might feel good to wish for, to dream about or to otherwise yearn that territory in eastern Turkey be handed over to Armenia, I think this fantasy of turning back the clock to some mythical spot in history really should stop. It is not serving anyone in a good way. Even if Turkey eventually admits its genocidal intent from 1915 on, do you really think an Armenian government sitting in Yerevan – with very little experience in running anything very well – could actually govern over a Kurdish and Turkish majority?  Come on. Get real. 

    If 2 million Armenians living on their own land in 1915 couldn’t stop what was happening to them at the time (and were decimated in plain view of the world), why do you think it can happen now, when virtually no Armenians are living there?  The whole idea of it is fanciful, to say the least. And, hypothetically, even if Turkey admits to something horrible and heinous by the CUP (which is public knowledge, by the way)…then what?  Who gets compensated?  How?  Does Armenia or the descendants of those who lost something?  What if there are no descendants still around?  Then what?  

    So, while it all sounds like it makes sense, someone really needs to ask if it does, in fact make any sense at all?  And then, what are the probablities that anything concrete might come of it.  In a world that is harsh and obsessed with other things, and overlooks murder happening on a daily basis or actively encourages it thru senseless war, or actually engages in it, I think the chances of seeing the status quo change much are slim, to say the least. 

    More than anything, although I’m all for doing research and confronting both silence and the denialists with the hard truths, I really think we should be encouraging Armenia to cement its relationship with Karabagh and finalize it, and then just get on with things.    

     

  681. This statement in my last post may be unclear:   “And countless researchers have shown that depraved indifference was not the case.” 

    What I mean is that researchers have determined that it was not merely depraved indifference, but deliberate and orchestrated plans. 

  682. ‘The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16.’
     
     
    The obfuscation and subtle Denial continues by Turcophile agents of Neo-Goebbelsian Ministry of Propaganda.
    First it’s the  ‘disposal of’  exterminated Armenians, including children and babies.
    Now they have peacefully ‘died’. Not brutally murdered, not cut to pieces while alive, not gassed in caves, not burnt alive in Armenian Churches, nor  their bellies cut open to play a game of “guess the baby’s gender” – but ‘died’. So serene, so peaceful…..they simply died when it was their time, you see.
     
     
    I will defer to my humble compatriot Gor to address the other tidbit of disinformation – ‘The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000….’

  683. I herewith request  Avery and others  who might  wish to give me a hand and ascertain  that above short  post  by GAYTZAG  is  another  person.I always sign  with my surname Palandjian  next to it.Also the editor  and Administrator could actually  find  that  out and clear  up any misunderstandings.
    To add  that  in his  post  Gaytzag-not  me Gaytzag  palandjian- DID  NOT SAY ANYTHING    that  would hurt  me or even try to stick something unpleasant-so to speak- to my name.
    I only wish to make it clear  that I did   NOT  place  those few lines up there.
    Thanks for reading me and awaiting clarification ,if possible  by GAYTZAG  also. 

  684. NOW  MY BIT<ESPECIALLY TO KAREKIN .
    Our  Third World Armenian Congress that convened  in 1985-in Paris,the 2nd was  in Lausanne CH, The First  in Paris  1979. There were Turkish  correspondents  to either Hurriet  or Jumhurriet  or Gyun aydn  , or some such. After one  of the sessions, we used to get out to adjoining hall and refresh   a little. Sometimes, rather almost  always  in small groups .I noticed  one  larger group and approached  it.The Turkish correspondent  of one  of above  newspapers was surrounded by Young Armenians ,men and women. They were really putting pressure  on him with statements  re  the massacres and atttrocities perpetrated  upon our people  and  this chap, the correspondent , quite  well educated and prepared  rather to shoot  back his questions at the group such as >/
    Why  don’t  you look around a  bit ..there have been other important  massacres and attemps to annihilate totally other nations..such as  the Red indigenous Indians  of  North America, the Khmer rouge  in CAmblodia, ,Ruanda etc.,
    Exactly at  that  point  I asked permission from our young  to intervene and did so,saying./
    What  you say true,we are  not the only ones submitted  to such attrocities,but almost  all of  these have been properly acknolwedged  or made to acknowledge  and make reparations,most importently some have  asked  for forgiveness,which is more  hUMAN.
    The Hurriet  correspondent would not give  up and was waiting my intervention to finish and then shot  at  me, where do you hail from ,please  introduce  yourself. I told  himI am from Spain-then-and he said woudl you really GO BACK AND LIVE>>WHERE DID  YOU SAY  YOUR PEOPLE  CAME  FROM  ERzEROUM…yes  I toild him. I would go back and forth as  many times as  necessary.The lands  there  mostly are  left  uncultivated, homes  in ruins.I told  him no worry we from Diaspora  wojuld  BIG  FUNDING  take Caterpillarts  there and rebuild  the towns, schools  churches  etc.the he siad.
    DO YOU KNOW  THAT  ON THIS  SIDE  OF THE FCRONTIER  THERE ARE  HUGE  U>S> BASES>>>I shot back I know, but  do you know  that on the other side  also…
    ARE  YOU A COMMUNIST  HE  SAYS>  nO i TELL HIM< MATTER  OF FACT  AM A SMALL CAPITALIST> BUT IF NEED BE  i SHALL BE  A COMMUNIST  A  mAOIST  A WHAT  NOT  FOR MY COUNTRY>>>>HE STOPPED  THERE>>>
    yOU SEE  KAREKIN  WHAT  YOU WROTE ABOVE  DOES  NOT HAVE ANY SUBSTANCE>
    ONE MORE  THING  MY  PERSONAL  VIEWPOINT  IS  THAT  WE ARE TO DEMAND  FIRST  AND  FOREMOST  IN THE FIRST  PLACE        b   l   o  o   d      m  o  n  e  y  ….it has precedent <I REFER TO THE JEWS  FROM GERMANY>>>>>CAPICHE-iTALINA-DO YOU FOLLOW  WHAT  i AM SAYING>>>FIRST  THINGS  FIRST  AND EVEN  IF A SMART  MAN  IF YOU ARE  LIKE THE ABOVE CORRESPONDENT  THEN YOU WILL SHOOT BACK AT  M E OUR tREASURY is almost  empty  what  with global recession etc.,  
    my response  then< WHEN THE OIL PIPE  LINE WAS ERRONEOUSLY OR INTENTIONALLY BY PASSED ARMENIA  -+SHORTEST ROUTE  BY  BP AND ESSO AND OTHER< THEY ARE PAYING NOW  !>^ BILLION DOLALR S  AYEAR TO GREAT TURKEY>>>>
    IF AND WHEN  WORLD  HAS CONDEMNED  GREAT  TURKEY< THESE COMPAN IES  SHOULD B E  MADE  -BY THEIR GOVT>S  TO PAY PART  OF THAT  TRANSIT DUTY TO  ARMENIA AND ARMENIAS>>>THIS  TIME  OVER  THERE IS NO ESCAPE  FROM  BEING FINED < KAREKINB < OR  JOHN  OR  WHOEVER  THINKS WE ARE THE SAME  OFLD ARMENIAN  RAYA  ERMENIS>>>No siree we  MEAN BUSINESS… 

  685. boyajian

    I come back to your questions:
    What ‘real disagreement’ should be allowed to stand in the way of Turkey offering an apology and reparations?  Has Armenia not waited long enough and hasn’t Turkey avoided it long enough?
    comment: By “real disagreement” I understand that there is not only a tactical move to deny what the other say, in spite of nowing that the Other is right. Real disagreement means to me 1) that the people you disagree with are sincere, 2) that there are aspects of your convicion that is open to doubt (if not, you are some sort of fundamentalist). Regarding the Armenian cause, we have the three contributions (Andonian, ten commandments, Rifat), that used to be quite prominent in the Armenian narrative, and on which there is now silence. This was a real disagreement, and Armenian scholars have tacitly recognised the other side as right. Another aspect is that many Armenians believe that the overwhlming majority of relevant historians agree with them, this is not so. This is a real disagreement between many Armenians on the one hand and many Turks on the other hand. I believe the Turkish side is right. Many historians who cannot be dismissed diagree. If they are right is another matter.

    Because there is real agreement Armenians must not treat Turks just as a recalcitrant child, Armenians must ARGUE.   I get angry because I agree that you were subjected to terrible injustices, but some of you simply function so as just to make this trauma continue and continue. There is a Turkish-Armenian youth movement (I beliecve the name is “nor zartonk”) who critizices other Armenians for what they call “the chosen trauma”. Karekin has been commenting on this.

    you write:   
    You believe that their is another side to the Armenian genocide story, other than the Armenian version.

    comment: As said before there are many points about which one cannot for 100 percent be sure, for instance the intent in the upper echelons of the ittihadists. This is simply an article of faith in many Armenians. This is psychologically understandable, but unsatisfactory from the scholarly perspective. But I am sure that the ittihadists committed a great crime, by wilful omission or by direct intent, further that Turks will have great trouble answering this accusation. They prefer to discuss with the Armenian hotheads who use vile language and wave the banner of the Andonian papers.

    you write:    
    You think Armenians fail to recognize that there is another side to the story and are unwilling to engage in constructive argument/debate with Turks.

    comment: I cannot talk about all Armenians, but I believe that this is so. Armenians risk to ruin their case because they argue in a way which will make people offended and stop discussing. This does not apply to you, as you are almost always courteous, which I think is wise to be. But others, like Avery, to my mind, is a catastrophy for the Armenian cause. That is, if he is let loose on an audience which is not composed of people who are already believers, and bound by the loyalty to fellow believers to accept anything as long as you repeat the slogans. In every movement there are those people who are a liability for the cause. The clever Turks would be very happy to have Avery as an opponent in a forum of Turks who are not sure what to think, that is if he behaves as he does here. Many of them will turn their back to the Armenian cause in disgust. You know, politics very often has to so with whom you select as an adversary, you have to select the one who can discredit your opponents’ views by his or her coarseness and lack of argumentation.  
    you write:
    You believe Armenians should work to enhance their dialogue with Turks by first recognizing that Turks don’t see things our way and are immediately alienated by rhetoric that suggests that Turks have not evolved from their barbarian origins.

    comment:

    Yes, Armenians should do dialogue with Turks, preferably in Turkey. But then you must stop portraying the ones you want to discuss with as barbarians, liers and so on from time immemorial. I am amazed that many participators here appears not to realize this. It is as if the one thing they really care about, is the opportunity to be with others and vent their anger and frustration together.  They dont care about results or already despair about results, because they behave in a way that the would bring them no good in any other setting (negotiating on the job, arguing in a school meeting as a parent of children, they have accustomed themselves to develop another personality when they exhibit their Armenian-ness)This is a result of the great trauma your people has experienced and which Libaridian puts very nicely in his article “The past as a prison as as a new future”. But I am afraid this trauma also produces a negative culture of victimhood, one simply loves to complain……

      
    I hope this made my position clearer.       

  686. gayane (or gayan-ian), I’d love to have your real name, and your CV. Or are you hiding? Maybe robert is hiding, but are there not others her who hide?

  687. monastras

    arent you talking in a threatening way now? Is this wise? Turkish military might is not a panacea, and not a good answer when your arguments fail. If you believe so, I suggest you joint the army and leave the Armenian Weekly…..

  688. Sorry Gayane, I meant that John was hiding, not Robert, who really seem to be hiding now. An I have to admit that the john-oghlu pun is really funny!

  689. Let’s talk about Bitlis…  where in a cold winter night in 1916, Armenian Fedayi surrounded the city which was rather easy since it as ringed by high hills, all deep snow covered.  They were leading the Russian Army which was moving slowly with their heavy gear and artillery.   The local Ottoman commander had quiteley removed the bulk of his small garrison to save them since he had realized he had little chance against a large army.  Promised help was days away, though a young Pasa named Mustafa Kemal was force marching his troops to save Bitlis, leaving Irak front open to British assault, he would not make it on time.  People of Bitlis woke up to find machine guns placed all around.  Massacre continued all day.  Fedayi went house to house, searching, raping and killing.  It was relatively easy since most able men were at multiple fronts, fighting.  Bodies piled up.  A young relative was buried and hidden under the pile and was able tell some of the story later.  Sisters of grandpa, all good shots, receded into the old cemetery and resisted to the last bullet.  You know what happened to them.  Bitlis fell to Armenian irregulars and Russians like many other cities in the area.  They were all depleted of their Muslim populations by Armenians, even to the horror of their Russian allies.  People still to this day find mass graves of Turks dating from that era.  Some of the many stories your grandparents negelected to pass along.

  690. It is patently absurd that Armenians have to work so hard to defend the truth about all this and, it is even more absurd that anyone, Americans, Turks or anyone else, would attempt to dispute or rewrite history to reflect the distorted, propagandist version as outlined by hardline Turkish nationalists. The numbers, astounding as they are, don’t really matter and neither do words. The actions of a government, that of the CUP, against a major component of Ottoman society, were watched by many on site observers and reported on almost daily. Unless those people were all deaf, dumb and blind, someone is lying – and I will tell you, it’s not the Armenians!  Their own government turned on them just like the Nazis did thirty years later, in another exhibition of insanity.  I’m all for reconciiliation, but I am not for lies or propaganda.  Remember people, the truth will set you free.  

  691. Monastras,you say quote:
    You must also remember that Turks in turkey are extremely angry with Armenia as she carried out and unprovoked attack to her neighbou
    Unquote
    You above statement shows what an ignorant twisting person you are.Turks can be as much angry as they want.They are angry with US,EU,Iran,Syria,Israel,Armenia,Greece,Cyprus,Bulgaria,Iraq,China,Russia… they are even angry with North Cyprus…of course we should not mention that they are angry with Kurds of Turkey to start with,then Iraq,Iran,Syria…& the list goes on & on.That’s zero problems with neighbours.That’s Turkey for you
    That neighbour that you mention above’Aliyevistan’ is angry  with Turkey as they are forcing it to sell its gas to Turkey at 1/4th of the international prices.Read wikileaks…Two brothers one nation???
    Last week an Azeri drone was shot down over Artsakh with a hunting gun & Aliyevistan is denying…how common Turkish thread…always denying!

  692. Gaytzag P-  I am not sure what you are referring to… the person by the name of Gaytzag said nothing wrong or absurd for you to take such steps as to clarify which one you are.. guess i am confused…:)

    Avery jan– well said my friend well said… 

  693. Karekin- I don’t know if you are worst than ragnar or any of the denialists on these pages but sometimes you make sense but sometimes you say things that causes my mouth to drop to the floor.. example would be your last post.. are you freaking serious????? you got to be kidding me right????

  694. Boyajian,Turkish Genocide,killings of Armenians & theft of what belonged to us went hand in hand,continued & continues until today.As I said before even if they gave back the whole total lot that’s ours I can never & will never be thankful.Being thankful for the crumbs or even the whole lot given back,means being thankful for the Genocide,massacre,rape,butchering of my ancenstors as theft & killings went hand in hand…
    It’s not on us the massacred victims, to build trust with our killer.That moral duty of building trust (if they have one) belongs to Turkey.You should understand that if there were no EU/Hague court cases,Turkey would not have even given back those few flats,buildings or few pieces of land in Istanbul…Just compare what’s given back to what they’ve taken from us…

  695. Monastras– are you by any chance related DIRECTLY to Talat, or Enver or to the third demented, retarded murderor because you speak of Armenians like animals..you are ready to wipe us out again if we don’t stop our fight.. you are one genocidal and retarded individual … wow.. and people expect Armenians to speak  face to face  with such denialists….if there is one here on these pages, imagine how many there are in turkish govt.. guess the ottoman era still lives in today’s denialists minds and souls… it is like the devil devoured their soul and heart along with their brains… it is absolutely disturbing.. i feel sorry for you Monastras… absolutely sorry… you will definitely end up in hell of speaking such threats to us….knowing very well what your ancestors did to my ancestors and now you want to continue that Genocide??? devil i say…

  696. The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16

    Ragnar you said many stupid, anti-Armenian and absolutely ridiculeous statements in the past… but the above statement t iakes the big trophy home….. you absolutely checked yourself in the most outrageously unintelligent and confused  jr historians school of the world…WOW.. all i can say is WOW.. you never cease to shock us… 

  697. Mr. gaytzag palandjian: The above short post by Gaytzag is definitely not you.

    I don’t think anyone thought it was you: the fact that you post your last name also makes it obvious – so no worries. 

    1. The icon/avatar is different. 
    2. I doubt anyone else could duplicate your highly unique writing style.
        (even if someone were to (mis)use  your exact same name).

    Nothing to be done: ‘Gaytzag’ is a fairly common Armenian name, although Anglicized spelling can be done several different ways. 
     

  698. Ragnar, your memory is short, but did you not once imply that Armenians would “do the same” to Turks if they were in control?  There was much uproar over this comment in a previous thread.

    Also, perhaps parity is the wrong word, but why else do you harp on this example of ‘sameness’ between Bulgarian Turks and what was done to the Armenians.  Clarify.  

    You talk to both sides of this conflict (Turk and Armenian) with different voices and emphases.  It appears you are not so much trying to understand as you are trying to ‘manage the conversation.’   The result is that it is unclear where you stand and what your goal is.  

    Monastras, this statement is flawed by your skewed turko-centric thinking:
     “Bear in mind that Armenia was also created with the approval of Turks.”  

    As if Armenia and Armenians didn’t exist for thousands of years before Turkey and Russia signed a treaty. 

    “You must also remember that Turks in turkey are extremely angry with Armenia as she carried out and unprovoked attack to her neighbour”

    This is a false statement.  Azeri’s completely provoked Armenia into action to protect Armenians in Arstakh from massacre by Azeris.  

    Karekin, you will never convince me that Armenians don’t have a legitimate claim to make in the Highlands. You can be a pragmatist, but we still need dreamers who set a goal and hang onto ideals.   Armenia is the place in the world where Armenians lived for thousands of years, referenced in the bible alongside ancient civilizations long gone, and anchored by Mt. Ararat.  Kings and rulers may change and borders on maps redrawn, but it doesn’t change what is the  ‘home’ of the Armenian.  But I agree with you on Artsakh.

     

  699. I request  -my fellow  forum posters  here and Editors  to forgive  my very bad typing-plenty  of typographical  errors.
    This is due to my having less time to spare,partially  old age setting in and also annoyed  by those Anti Armenian remarks  here…
    Furthermore, My real writings  directed  to  newspapers, such as  Hairenik weekly,USArmenian life  rarely are published. I take  it mostly because  they approve  of those  that are in line  with political party thinking.I respect  theirs and I do believe  they should also respect  “suggestions” come-exposed  from non party lines…
    For  mine  is the Re organization of the Armenian Diasporas around PCA’s Professional Colleagues  associations….  over a  100  thousand  that are not any more  the ”
    The silent Majority”  that  they used to label us,in order  them to be there at forefront.
    Time  has come dear  politico to by and by give  way to these PCA,s/
    Both Human  resources  and Financial  might  resides  in us the PCA  people.
    Otherwise  the status quo  that  they -the politico-prefer will not get them anywhere.
    The world today is based  on strong Finances with plenty of  owners  of  these…
    though by nature  I tend to be  Euro Socialist  minded,that  is Swedish style, I do admit  that  nowadays  the trend  is to build  up Finances and use  latter  to make wishes come true,be  realized  for  without  this substance  not much can be achieved…
    So off to realize  above  suggestions if  you will. 

  700. Thanks  to Avery for the clarifications.No thanks to Gayane, as I myself   made it clear  that  there  was important issue involved,but I wanted  to make sure it was someone else.
    No need  to get fired  up and write  taking  steps.What drastic steps did  I take..
    just a request for clarification and got  it. Non the  less with all the husle and busle  going  on here, to be on the alert  is good. You guys-not me- think it is something outlandish  that  some may be passing  themselves as  Turks or  are Turks,so what. We know  how to reciprocate. No problem for that .But, then again, I am surprised  no one comments  on the issue  that  I bring  up  of importance  that  of as an example./
    1. Our claims ought to commence    for    BLOOD  MONEY
    2. If great Turkey  -even after condemnation- would refuse to compensate,stating their coffers are empty  that  wise…then
    3. Those  who have taken sides  with  great Turkey-it is still there  , this one-I mean passage  of Oil pipeline via longer routes  by passing little friendly, nay, ally Armenia  -witness two WW,s…then  the Oil companies  are to be addressed seriously  and through their Govt.s  made  to be held responsible for errors  and at the very least  asked or impelled  to pay part  of the 1.6 billion dollars  of transit duties -that  they pay  now to great Turkey-to us. For,like  someone  wrote  here , they have been-great Turkey,i.e-on the receiving  end ..and I had  added  some  made  her , encouraged  her  in that direction. They will not pay a penny to those  raya Ermenis…..  

  701. ragnar naess, You asked if Gayane my sister is hiding, I know that she is not and neither am I.

    You wrote to Boyajian that a number of Armenians play or rather exhibit themselves as victimhood.  I will ask you in her absence if I may that but you dismiss the fact thanks to your Turkish gov’t who has the Code 301 law against anyone who speaks for the AG is spaking against Turkishness and a Turkey who targets their own kind and or attempts to puts them in jail to a nobel price historian/intellectual such as Orham Pamuk as well as many other intellectuals if they dare to speak for the Armenian Genocide, what do you make of it?  As of late they are doing it also to the honorable Mr. Taner Akcam.  How do you feel about the fascist attitudes amongst your own Turkish gov’t as well as a good many of the Turkish people that react towards Armenians with hatred and attempts to killings?  After all, Armenians have waited patiently for Turkey to come around to their senses for almost 100 years and we are still waiting.  If you think that we are and feel victimized, then let me turn the tables around that may God forbid if Armenians did exactly the same things that the Mongolian and Seljuk tribes did it to us; wouldn’t you people feel for a good while traumatized and then feel victimized, especially if for almost 100 years the Armenians have denied it and then keep on dening it?  I said may God forbid, because, especially in the 21st century no one must resolve their differences by taking arms, unless if it’s absolutely necessary.  I would much rather see that any differences amongst nations would be resolved through communication and compromise.  Frankly you are not understandingly looking at our side of the coin with an open mind and an open heart.  To begin with your gov’t can start coming to their senses by first eliminating the Code 301 from their books, then we’ll know that they are beginning in good faith to come around to start honestly and justly communicating with Armenians and start to pay up renumerations for the great losses that the Turk’s ensued to Armenians.    
       

  702. Now, this is outrageous, ragnar naess,    “The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16.”
     
    First of all, as a jr historian, you should be careful with referring to the notion of “majority.” Don’t you expect that I or others can beat you on this, if we decide to present our list of historians—that’d constitute the majority—who say from 1 million to 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered in 1915-1923?
     
    Second, I demand that you clarify what you mean by “died”? You mean hundreds of thousands of people reached a ripe age by 1915 and died within a couple of consecutive years? Is “Armenians died” another idiotic phrase in the stock of your denialist glossary of terms, such as “crime”, “colossal crime”, etc. to describe the genocide of the Armenians? Also, since you accept—yet never called by its proper name—that there was a “colossal crime” committed against the Armenians, how in the context of this crime can you state that Armenians simply “died”?!  A second-grade pupil, not a jr historian, would understand that if there was a crime, then people who were targeted wouldn’t just die, but were subjected to murder en masse.
     
    Third, the genocide of Armenians did not last from 1915 to 1916. It lasted from 1915 to 1923. Check with the “majority” of your historians, if you will. Have you never noticed that exterminating the remaining pockets of Armenians in Asia Minor lasted up until 1923? One major proof for that is extermination of Armenians of Smyrna in 1922. How can an unbiased, not Turk-obsessed, person miss this continuity during the genocide of Armenians?
     
    Taken from your post addressed to Gayane: “I’d love to have your real name, and your CV. Or are you hiding?”  I’d like to have the Introduction for your upcoming book. But, for some reason, you never responded whether or not it was possible. Are you hiding?

  703. gor

    thank you for your list of historians. Regarding the introduction to my upcoming book, I guess you know pretty much of its content from our discussions. Regarding genocide of Turks in Bulgaria, take a look at how the courts  handle the question in cases like Bosnia, Rwanda. They do not go into “chronological” questions, they ask about intent to destroy a protected collectivity or group in whole and in part, about killing people or putting them in life endangering situation. This is called to apply a definition. Its what judges do. And about the name of the crime , we have been through this before. Let us not rehearse. The massacres of Bulgarians are well known, the massacres of Turks not. The strange thing is that genocide historians do not even discuss the mass murder of Turks, but discuss cases like the allied bombing of German cities during WW2. So  this is unjust. And your idea of making civilians belonging to a certain  ethnic group into belligerents is just preposterous from the point of view of human rights. Excuse me for saying so.

       

  704. Yes let’s talk about Bitlis, Murat Bey.
    You begin your recollection from ‘Sisters of grandpa’  in 1916.
    Let’s talk about 1915 first, since it happened – well, before 1916.
    A non-Armenian, a Venezuelan officer voluntarily serving in the Ottoman Army gives an eyewitness account of 15,000 Armenian civilians having been massacred by Turks in Bitlis.
     
     
    Do you or do you not unequivocally accept that Turks massacred 15,000 Armenians in Bitlis in the year 1915, before whatever happened in 1916  ?
    After you do, we can discuss what happened in Bitlis in 1916, after Turks massacred 15,000 Armenians in Bitlis in 1915.
    Did I mention that 1915 is chronologically before 1916 ? As in, whatever happened in 1916, happened after  1915.
     

  705. Gayane…technically, a dream is just that…an ephemeral moment in your subconscious, sometimes vivid and very real, but not. A wish is something very different, but we’re always amazed when they come true.  Now, I’m not about to deny that Armenians originated and lived on their own lands – call the area what you want – for probably much more than 3000 years…perhaps closer to 10,000. But, those facts aside…I still do not see how writing and talking about historic Armenia in a fantasy way is helpful at all. We have our azad Hayastan…love it, cherish it, take good care of it – NOW!  Do not waste this moment by dwelling on fantasy talk about history you cannot change. It’s one thing to have a dream or a wish, it’s quite another to be downright delusional. Amot eh…mekhk eh…al herike…inchoo khentutiun parer guh khosees? Chim haskenah. 

  706. Murat– you again??? seriously you people must have nothing better to do than visit our pages and then spew venom here and there and then dissapear again.. is this how you debate????

    The sad story you shared with us truly makes me think..hmmmm.. is it possible that the entire world is that stupid and blind not to read and find such facts about turks and how they were brutally murdered by fedayi.. now it is very odd and funny to me that both you and robert the turk keep bringing up fedayi resistance and Dashnak resistance and use them as if Armenians were the perpetrators of the Genocide… you know 1.5 million innocent people murdered in cold blood and marched to their death…..the last I checked it was 1.5 million Armenians and not Turks who were murdered in cold blood by systematic fashion… hmmmmmmmm i wonder where your story fits in the realm of Turkey is guilty of Genocide and must repay for EVERYTHING…the world must be stupid enough because they realized ..oh wait…the Fedayi fought to protect and guard those left alive and not systematically wipe out a nation like the ottomans were out to do…i believe that is what you are saying right Murat????

    Gayane  

  707. Ragnar– your position will never be clear unless you share your introduction of your book like I and Gor requested few times now…

  708. Some people on these pages repeatedly asking you the great Armenian scholar. Why can’t you say See you in court? Obviously not the court in the Great Armenia or Great Turkey. In Hague.  Scared? 

    Many thanks 

  709. We all need to remember that today’s war, today’s struggle, is to keep Armenia, tiny as it is, alive and well. Fighting the past and trying to correct past wrongs are valid, only to a degree, but are mostly just distractions that inhibit us from being single minded and focused like a laser beam on the true prize, which is a healthy, sustainable azad Hayastan. Once we have achieved that, THEN it’s time to consider these other issues, because history will always be there, but then at that point, we will be able to argue from strength, not from weakness. Today, our argument is strong, yes, because it is based on truth and massive amounts of evidence, documentation, first hand observation, academic studies, etc., but we have little actual leverage by which to lift something up that is so large and so heavy and so cumbersome and then move it to where it belongs.  To push the genocide issue while people in Armenia are struggling to survive is really a stretch for me. Sorry. I’m all for remembering the dead with honor and grace, but feel that supporting the living is a much smarter investment in our homeland’s future.

      

     

  710. monastras

    you mentioned that you had some questions for me. I looked,but I cannot find them. On the other hand, I mentioned some two or three arguments for taking the allegations of genocidal intent in the ittihadists seriously. You might consider to answer them

    Boyajian

    I will come back to your questions. But I wonder why my position should be any mystery now. My bottom line is the Turkish moral and economic debt to Armenians. When asked about the great Ar,menian mortality, the massacres and the role of the government in 1915, most Turkish contributions talk about the Armenian guerilla, and the Armenians who collaborated with the Russians. This is no answer even if important for the historical context.  But there are many aspects of the positions of the genocide scholars and the Armenian  scholars I know that are either highly questionable or  simple unproductive if Armenians are to influence truth seeking Turks. I believe you know my position. You dont have to agree, and you dont agree but this is my position.

    Gayane

    The introduction is not written. Besides, I think that “Summing up and conclusions” will be more interesting if you want to understand where I stand.   But then I believe I have stated my views many times. I will not change them. But what I write about my experiences with dialogue with Armenians I will present to you with whom i have been debating for such a long time, and if you want I will include your responses so that you have a voice. IF YOU WANT, its an offer, this is how I worked as a researcher, but I believe you declined.

    Seervart

    I am not Turkish, I am Norwegian. If you do not want to hide give me your name, adress and CV as I have done. Same to you, Gayane

    gor

    I admire your stamina, but if my words so far neither has convinced you, nor made you really grasp my point, I dont know how to go on regarding the case of the Turks of Bulgaria in 1877-78     

                     

  711. boyajian

    I do not care merely about developing the discussion. I make definite points about what I agree with in the different postions, and what I disagree  with in both positions, if you perceive the filed as dominated by a “turkish” position and its opposite. I state what I believe happened, what I am not certain about, and what I dont believe happened. Is it the middle position – not being sure – that makes you perceive me as having an unclear position? But then I also care abpout the quality of the debate, and I believe this is important. Otherwise we waste our time just barking at each other.  

  712. ragnar naess,    “Regarding the introduction to my upcoming book, I guess you know pretty much of its content from our discussions.”   This is not a scholarly talk, mr jr historian. I asked if a written account might be made available to us, not the contemplations that I may or may not have in regard to it based on discussions on these pages. Based on your reply, I understand that you are hiding.
     
    “Regarding genocide of Turks in Bulgaria, take a look at how the courts handle the question in cases like Bosnia, Rwanda. They do not go into “chronological” questions, they ask about intent to destroy a protected collectivity or group in whole and in part, about killing people or putting them in life endangering situation.”    I never claimed to be an international lawyer in addition to being a historian, so maybe a Turk who goes by a genuinely Christian name ‘John’ should address you, not me, as “Great Turkish Scholar”?  Secondly, we never actually discussed nonsense such as “genocide of Turks in Bulgaria”. We discussed wartime atrocities in the Russo-Turkish war of 1877-78 in the context of which I demonstrated that Bulgarian Turks suffered atrocities for two major reasons: (1) because Turks in the first place mass murdered Bulgarian civilians a year before atrocities were committed against the Bulgarian Turks; and (2) wartime atrocities against a civilian segment of a belligerent party that are inevitable during any war waged in the history of mankind and deliberate extermination of an ethnic group as a race by their own government are two incomparable and irrelevant instances. No international legal body, or organization, or foreign parliament, or professional association, or a historian, or a genocide scholar ever denominated wartime atrocities against Bulgarian Turks as “genocide.” Even your beloved McCarthy referred to them—exaggeratingly—as “ethnic cleansing” in the context of war. Chronology of events in Bulgaria was brought by me not in the context of how the courts handle various cases, but as a demonstration that you overly concentrate on the killings of Turks while conveniently omitting the fact that Turks were the ones who initially mass murdered the Bulgarian civilians. Courts do consider whether or not there has been intent to destroy a group (there is no mentioning of protected group in ICTJ criteria, please stop disinformation) in whole and in part or putting them in life endangering situation. As such, there is no single court resolution that recognized wartime atrocities against Bulgarian Turks as genocide, because Russians and Bulgarians had no intent to destroy Turks as a group. Ethnically Turks represented the civilian component of the Ottomans — a party to the war against Russians and Bulgarians. Hence, they suffered atrocities. In 1876 Bulgarian villagers were not a civilian segment of any party to a war, nor were they a segment of Bulgarian freedom-fighting brigades. Yet, they were murdered by the Muslim/Turkish irregulars and Ottoman army regiments. What name do these atrocities merit according to you? And why you never mentioned them for the sake of historical and chronological objectivity? The answer offers itself: you are clearly on the Turkish side of the debate.

    “This is called to apply a definition. It’s what judges do.”   Yes, and so they do. But the fact remains that no court has applied the definition of “genocide” to the wartime atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks. Only you do. It astonishes me how single-handedly you apply this definition to the wartime situation involving the Bulgarian Turks, yet how reluctantly you wiggle around with applying the same definition to the internationally recognized crime against the Armenians.
     
    “The massacres of Bulgarians are well known, the massacres of Turks not.”   Well, there may be a reason for that. Because any sober-minded—not bought and paid-for—scholar understands that it was the Turks who committed massacres of the Bulgarian civilians in the first place, and massacres of the Turks represent retaliation of the Bulgarians, as well as casualties suffered by the civilians in a wartime situation.
     
    “And your idea of making civilians belonging to a certain ethnic group into belligerents is just preposterous from the point of view of human rights.”    Do not twist my words so you won’t have to offer me another apology. I never expressed an idea of “making civilians belonging to a certain ethnic group into belligerents.” I said Bulgarian Turks ethnically represented a civilian element of a belligerent party and not that they belonged to a belligerent party. I brought this argument to demonstrate that civilians representing a party or parties to a war do, unfortunately, suffer atrocities and casualties during wars and that wartime atrocities against them have nothing in common whatsoever with the centrally-planned and executed deliberate destruction of an ethnic, national, and religious group as a race by their own government, not a wartime enemy.  Your incessant attempt at juxtaposing the two divergently different and unsupported by any court decision or scholarly account cases is preposterous.

  713. You post, we  respond:  then we post questions to you in response, as is the usual protocol. You ignore our questions, and post new ones – John oglu.
     
    No matter: we will counter your disinformation just the same, and will continue doing so as long as disseminators  of Denialist disinformation continue disseminating. 
    You, like many other Turks, keep bringing up ‘lawsuits’ on these pages.
    You write: Why can’t you say See you in court?’
    Well, some Armenians tried and did say “see you Turks in court”:  Turks not only refused to show up in court, but were doing their best to hide.
    Let me repeat that: Turks were doing their best NOT to go to court and face their accusers.
     
     
    From the case {Alex Bakalian et. al vs. Republic of Turkey, the Central Bank of Turkey, and T.C. Ziraat Bankasi et. al, Case Number 2:10-CV-09596, December 15, 2010}
     
    Here is the interesting passage of what the court said:

    [The plaintiffs have spent recent months attempting to serve all the defendants, and then to have the court affirm their service efforts. In the August 2 order, the court denied Central Bank of Turkey and Ziraat Bank‘s motion to dismiss the complaint for insufficient service of process. The court acknowledged that the plaintiffs presented “credible evidence that their process servers made several attempts to serve the bank defendants at addresses in “New York City… [and] were repeatedly denied access to the buildings and [were even]…misdirected as to Ziraat Bank’s actual location.”] (emphasis mine)
     
     
     
    Now we don’t know  if this particular lawsuit will be ultimately successful for the plaintiffs or not: time will tell.
     
    However I have a question: if Turks have nothing to hide, why are they hiding ?
    Are you going to answer this last question, John oglu, or you are going to post more nonsense ?
    Maybe you should follow the example of your Turk buddies and….hide from the pages of AW. 

  714. ‘Seervart
    I am not Turkish, I am Norwegian. If you do not want to hide give me your name, adress and CV as I have done. Same to you, Gayane’
    This was not addressed to me, but I know my friends Seervart and Gayane will not mind if I respond.
     
    “Surely you are not serious, Doctor  Naess
    “I am serious, and stop calling me Shirley”       (what movie is that from ?)
     
    I am a man. I grew up in a rough neighborhood in Yerevan. I live in California now. I have a lot of tools and the training to use them. The many men in my extended clan also have lots of tools and the training to use them.
    Even then, I wouldn’t give out my full name and address. Both Seervart and Gayne are ladies. There are a lot of crazy men in USA. It’s an enormous country. You can do something, and disappear. Need I say more ?
     
    If you, Mr. Naess, decides  to take off your clothes and sun yourself, does it mean everybody else is obligated to do so ?
     
    You posted your  CV on the web voluntarily: nobody – least of all Seervart or Gayane – asked you to. So you asking them to post private information online just because you have  – makes as much sense as me asking you to reveal  your daughter’s full name and where she  and her family live online.  Frankly, you are close to 70. Human life expectancy being what it is, you really expect women who are much younger than you to behave the same as you, a man  near 70  ? Probably living alone. How do you know the ladies don’t have minor children to worry about ? Maybe they do. Maybe they don’t. They are not obligated to tell you  anything. Who cares what you think: their safety and their family’s safety come first.

     
    And why would you want Seervart’s and Gayane’s  full name and address in the first place: for what purpose ?

  715. Re You must also remember that Turks in turkey are extremely angry with Armenia as she carried out and unprovoked attack to her neighbour’  (emphasis mine)
    The Quote is  from a post in this thread  by Ms. Monastras.
    ——————
    Condensed chronology of actual events in Artsakh aka NKR 1988-1994.
     
    1988 Peaceful mass demonstrations in NKR demanding re-unification with Armenia SSR
    1988 Parliament of Nagorno-Karabagh ASSR votes to separate from Azerbaijan SSR
            and join Armenia SSR, per USSR Constitution.
    1988 One million people in Yerevan demonstrate peacefully in support of their brothers
            and sisters in NKR.
    1988 In response, Azeri mobs organized by the Musavat Party massacre 100s of  
            unarmed, defenseless Armenians in Sumgait.
    1988 300,000 Armenians flee Azerbaijan. 168,000 Azeris flee Armenia.
    1989  Azerbaijan  imposes a blockade on RoA and NKR.
    1990  Anti-Armenian riots break out in Baku. 100s of Armenians are massacred.
             Soviet Paratroopers land in  Baku.
    1991 Launch of “Operation Koltso” by combined Soviet and Azeri OMON and
            regular troops. Armenian populated villages (24 total) are attacked and
            ethnically cleansed of their Armenian inhabitants.  Shahumian region is emptied
            of Armenians and annexed to Azerbaijan (to the new “Gheranboy” region).
    1991 Referendum on Independence held in NKR. Turnout is close to 90%.
            Close to 98% of voters approve the  Independence.
    1992 May: Armenians liberate Shushi.
    1992 May: Armenians open the Lachin corridor.
    1992 June-October: Azeri  Operation “Geranboy”.  With massive outside support,
                      Azeris throw everything they’ve got at the Armenians and succeed  in
                      occupying 48% of NKR. 10s of thousands of Armenian civilians flee to
                      Stepanakert and other unoccupied regions of NKR to avoid certain death
                      at the hands of Azeri invaders.
    1992 Fall:   Armenians, with heroic, superhuman effort  halt the massive Azeri
                     invasion by numerically superior enemy. Yerevan based Mi-24 Helicopter
                     gunships piloted by Russians attack and break-up massed columns of Azeri
                     armor.     Armenians begin counterattacks.
                     Having used up all their reserves in Operation “Geranboy”, Azeris are
                     unable to put any effective resistance and begin  disorganized retreat over                    the entire width of the front.
    1993     Artaskh’s Armenian self defense forces continue to capitalize on their
                successes and continue liberating additional historic Armenian lands.
    1994 Winter:  As Armenians move closer and closer to  Baku, desperate Azeri
                        leadership starts  sending untrained teenagers to the front line  to
                        stem the tide of Armenian armor.
                        All in vain. Azeri Army is destroyed as an effective fighting force.
                        Armenian field commanders inform their  civilian superiors
                        that  the road to Baku is undefended to their tank columns –  if the order
                        is given to move.
    1994: Winter:    President Aliyev pleads with   Moscow to stop the Armenians from
                           advancing any farther.  Moscow  arranges a ceasefire.

    1994 May: Representatives of RoA, NKR, and  Azerbaijan sign ceasefire in Bishbek.
    ———————-
    EPILOGUE
    the above statement about  ‘unprovoked attack’,  coming from a poster who has  claimed that the  AG  was a fabrication by, quote, ‘defeated’ Armenians, is certainly  no surprise. Apparently in the Turkish mind,  extermination of unarmed Armenian civilians, and children, and babies – is no different than armed  troops being killed in battle and being defeated in war.

     
     
    On the other hand, when Armenians decide to fight back,  because Azeri-Tatar-Turks  attempt another extermination of indigenous Armenians living peacefully on their own ancestral  lands, it is an ‘unprovoked attack’,  and the Turks are angry. How dare those gyavurs  fight back. Weren’t they supposed to meekly march in long  columns to their deaths ? What happened ? What went wrong ?

    Who gave them permission to fight back ? Armenians better watch out. Turks are really angry now. They were not angry in 1895, not in 1909, not even in 1915. But now, they are extremely  angry – no telling what those Extremely Angry Turks might do. You Armenians better behave, or else.

  716. ragnar naess,      I likewise admire your perseverance in pushing forward a personal viewpoint unsupported by any historical account or court decision or international organization or foreign parliament resolution. If civilian casualties during every war waged by the mankind qualified for genocide, we would have gotten hundreds, if not thousands—not just several—cases of genocide as defined by the 1948 Convention. You demean yourself by equalizing genocide with wartime atrocities as a result of which, tragically, not only combatants, but a multitude of civilians are, as a rule, killed. If one were to follow your ill-conceived viewpoint, then casualties occurred during the World War II (taken as one example)—especially amongst the Russian/Soviet peoples—must have qualified for genocide.
     
    You’re unsure how to go on re: genocide vs. wartime atrocities dichotomy? Fine. Are you sure how to go on re: another absurd statement of yours: “The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16”? I’m still waiting for your explanations as to how could several hundred thousand people, based on your estimates, but in fact around 1.5 million people, just die in the course of a couple of years. Are you capable to go on and support this pearl of your judgment with any conceivable argument? If not, then I believe you’d owe us another apology and this time it wouldn’t be a half-apology, but a full one.

  717. I am not sure why my post to Ragnar in regards to my name did not post but I am going to try again…

    Ragnar — you addressed me in your Sept 17th post that I am hiding… hmmmm.. that was rather odd…….you ATTEMPTED to pull something smart by adding -ian after Gayane which was not  funny nor appreciated because  not only it did not make sense (-ian after a name????) but YOU having no knowledge about  Armenians and Armenian history had NO RIGHT to such post… … have you seen me change my name nor my avatar as long as you have barked at me on these pages  UNLIKE some denalists who use and create several/different names on our pages??/ HAVE YOU????? if the answer is NO which I know it is, then you just created YET ANOTHER episode how much you despise those who expose you of a lie and desire of creating choas and confusion… So you better watch it sir before you open your ignorant mouth and disrespect my name in such stupid manner…

  718. Gaytzag jan– to be honest with me.. i am more confused than before after reading your last post… all i tried to say was i did not know why you had to send a post trying to clarify which one is you because like i said… the poster said nothing absurd, rude or anti-Armenian… that was it… and like Avery stated, people know who is who by their avatar and writing style… i was just not clear the reason of your post.. that is it…

  719. Ragnar you wrote this directly to me:

    The introduction is not written. Besides, I think that ”Summing up and conclusions” will be more interesting if you want to understand where I stand.  

    my comment: NO. i don’t want to read about the summing up and conclusions.. we requested for you to share specifics.. stop going around the subject like you have done about Genocide for the last few years… as I see it, you have not even started your book have you???    

      But then I believe I have stated my views many times. I will not change them.

    my comment: no you have not.. to this day i have NO CLUE why you do what you do, why you act the way you act, why persist, why you debate, why you share except I know how you are as a person…from what you have exposed to us so far.. and it ain’t pretty.. to me sir.. YOU will remain and this will never change by the way as another type of denialists and Turcophile …

     But what I write about my experiences with dialogue with Armenians I will present to you with whom i have been debating for such a long time, and if you want I will include your responses so that you have a voice. IF YOU WANT, its an offer, this is how I worked as a researcher, but I believe you declined.

    I told you this before ragnar in the past: YOU CAN NOT use any of my comments here or out in your book because one I don’t want my voice to be included in your book of denial and full of inaccuracy (I am sure) but I also do not see you as someone who is experienced enough to write such a book…   and on another note.. so you are planning to write a pro-Turkish Anti-Armenian book solely based on the dialogues on AW????? wow.. i wonder how much the Turkish govt is planning to pay you for your book.. especially when your data is pulled from every day public forums… and not from actual international archives, face to face meetings, eyewitness accounts and research in different govt offices, ect….

    Gayane

  720. Gor jan– EXCELLENT… absolutely brilliant…

    Avery jan– this goes to you to..:) 

    By the way Avery jan.. I am sure you have read how Ragnar tried to yet again misrepresent you (as he did to me in the past) by stating you are dangerous to the Armenian cause .. I responded to Ragnar but somehow it did not post..but this is close to what I wrote…

    : TO ALL DENIALISTS AND TURCOPHILES…. if I were to put all of you together and then some, you as a whole will not even have 1% of the intelligence, knowledge, tact, and brains as Avery’s one strand of hair.. you denialists and Turcophiles can try to muddy up those of us who speak up and expose your lies and manipulations on these pages but facts remain facts.. you WILL NOT SUCCEED.. so i say give up your evil agenda …….       

  721. Avery,

    We are not hiding! Your editorial board is at it yet again! Censorship and deletions of our posts so that we can’t even defend ourselves against countless attacks from all of you! Then you have the audacity to say that we are “hiding”! Shame on you Sir!!

    John,

    You want the Hague court, the so be it! Let’s make sure that ANCA and ATAA make the arrangement for an open public forum debate with full media coverage first. THEN we’ll make arrangements for filing in civil court. Agreed? Please do not pull a GAYANE on us either (She has already developed a rather negative reputation)!     

  722. Dear Avery my brother, Thank you so much for answering Naess on my behalf in absentia as I do not necessarily come to this site very often.  You are brilliant as well as someone with a great heart and great logic.  For the ears of Naess and his sort, Armenians in general are smart people, but from Armenia are usually extremely smart sorts, thank goodness for our nationality as I am so proud!!!  Thank you again dear friend for coming to my rescue as well as to my sister Gayane’s.

  723. Gor jan,  Just based even on your last post to ragnar naess, your answer is so fitting that I am overjoyed with your superbly excellent answers to him as well as to others.  You’re a gem and thank you! 

  724. Karekin, I am terribly surprised at you for saying to Gayane, “Amot eh… mekhk eh… al herike… inchoo khentutiun parer guh khosees?  Chem haskenar”. Karekin, We have every right to speak our mind, the turks are speaking their minds on our newspaper pages and yet why shouldn’t we when in fact we are totally in the right and their their gov’t. isn’t.  May I remind you that it’s not an illusional dream to ask for turkey to come to her senses and after almost 100 years to recognize of their CUP’s gov’ts murderous acts towards our people and ask for renumeration for our almost 2 Million martyrs’ blood money.  And even if we dream about our long lost historical lands to have them back one day, it is very normal and a healthy process for humans and nations to have and look at the bright future and in hope for getting their rights.  For without hope where are we?  The hope is the essence of the human existence and of the psycholigical health.  If you are in doubt, ask psychologists and doctors.

  725. Hello Boyajian, Unfortunately I didn’t read your post above that was written back five days ago.  I am well aware that you are a good and a just fighter and I know where your heart is, that is with us and our just cause and I am thankful for that.  But I want to remind you that Turks just about a year and a half ago they signed the defeitist protocols with Armenia and soon after, they didn’t legalzsed it in their Parliaments and hence they refused to open their illegally closed boarders with Armenia; because it was the Armenian Parliamentary law that indeed we had Western Armenia and Armenians had the right to pursue the Armenian Genocide to be accepted by Turkey.  I hear that Turkey is hopefully and finally after 96 years will be returning our buildings that belonged to Armenians; but going as far as thanking them for something that we didn’t receive it yet and when we know that their heart is not for Armenia nor for Armenians, when they constanlty speak from both ends of their mouths, and knowing well that they will be doing this gesture solely to be accepted in the European Union; I think thanking them for it is not the right thing to do when we had precedence with them.  I see from past historical experiences from other nations that after the enemy apologized and they were being royally paid in full, they never thanked their murderers.  Turkey is a very complex state and Armenians must be very careful in dealing with Turkey at all times.  That is where I am coming from.    

  726. Karekin, In answer to your post addressed to me from five days ago, I have pretty much given my reasons to my post above to Boyajian, as to why I am reluctant to thank Turkey now and at this time.  Also I agree with Gayane’s very good answers back on her Sept. 14 post. 

  727. I agree with you Seervart jan… :) I absolutely trust and always open to have Avery or any of my friends on these pages to speak on my behalf.. and hopefully vice versa…

    Thank you Avery jan… you definintely shot Ragnar as well as Monastras up….

    Gor jan– your last post to Ragnar…      

  728. Robert– did you read my posts to you??? obviously you did not..because i had a question for you, a confirmation, a clarification and a request…but it is obvious as a true denialist you ignor them and continue your lies on our pages…… please read my last posts to you and you will have your facts.. 

    how dare you to tell me I have created a negative reputation when in reality it was your ill-conceived doing..  you simply refuse to acknowledge that what you tried to pull on me did not work and you are upset …  don’t hate.. appreciate the fact that we are willing to speak with you even after the stunt you pulled on me by calling me a liar and a denialists.. you did not win Robert the Turk and AGAIN stop harassing me because you feel defeated……….

    by the way.. IF you read my last few posts.. you can CLEARLY see that AW does not discriminate..some of my own posts did not go through either.. so you crying “FOUL” is a typical TUrkish way ….a person who is smart would ask: if AW was censoring my denialists posts, then why would posts by an Armenian also not get published?? have you ever thought of that?? i bet not…

     ..if you have not noticed thus far Robert… i am not a denialist like you, Murat, Monastras, John, Kurt and few others including Ragnar. I am here to point out how manipulative some of you are…..also how lucky you are that your foul comments get posted on our pages more often than your filthy TUrkish sites where 98% of our posts get vanished… so please stop your whining and grow up.. man up and stop spreading lies about people who stand up for justice,  and truth…

    Gayane

  729. Gayane, Seervart and Avery, please don’t take the bait.  You have no need to answer such nonsense.  Just keep your eyes on the truth.

  730. Seervart jan– mersi quyrs vor your post… unfortunately, Karekin is one individual who is as confusing as Ragnar.. truly is.. and sometimes I wonder whether or not he is an Armenian or not.. I understand his desires and motives.. truly do but when he speaks of Genocide and how unimportant history is to him, I just get dumbfounded.. especially his last post to me… i was kind of taken back by his audocity to tell me amote.. heriqe., xentutyunners knes.. . this and that.. seriously I can’t get through this man… i can’t understand him…

  731. Seervart, thanks for your comments to me.  I understand your point.  I think I was unclear. I am really talking about gratefulness for any restitution, but not necessarily a thank you to Turkey, because as others have said, this gesture is really not a gift given out of remorsefulness or sense of responsiblity for any crime.  I explained my reasons above.  Just my opinion.

  732. Seevart, Boyacian

    And even if we dream about our long lost historical lands to have them back one day, it is very normal and a healthy process for humans and nations to have and look at the bright future and in hope for getting their rights.  For without hope where are we?

    Boyajian had a similar statement. It is okay to dream about something which is achievable but if not what do you do? Moreover, If your dream ends in tear, Who is going to be responsible Turks?

    Why do you expect the Turks to support your cause then offer the Sevres Treaty in return? Do you think that they are that idiot? 

    Turkey can not escape the Armenians by closing the border as the planes land empty in Armenia but take off full of Armenians for Istanbul, Izmir, Antalya.Even when Erdogan threaten Armenia to deport the thousand of illegal  Armenian immigrants, Guess what happened after his statement? Some thousand of Armenian pupils of illegal immigrants had been accepted to the Armenian and the state schools even though, Georgian, Moldavian, Africans,Arab, Pakistani pupils are still lacking of schools.
    I am sorry I missed the recent party but I will try my best in the future

  733. Monastras,just to remind you that the thread & title/subject of this article is:
    Searching for Lost Armenian Churches and Schools in Turkey
    Your remarks are so childish,racist & full of hatred.Turkey is haunted with the spirits of my unburied massacred ancestors & just to refresh your memory again – massacred by your forefathers – & it can never escape the Armenians.Illegal Armenian children were accepted to mainly ARMENIAN SCHOOLS which is the part subject of this article.
    Stick to the main subject in your future comments so that a healthy communication occurs.

  734. Personally, I would like to see diasporan Armenians focus all of their time, energies and monies on Armenia and Karabagh, where people are having a very difficult time surviving. Armenians in Turkey probably live quite well, in comparison, and they have a much more sympathetic government than anytime in the recent past. Wasting time attempting to damage Turkey is just that…a waste of time, plus, it does not benefit Armenia at all.  Perhaps we can agree that 20th C. history has been difficult, painful and hard to ignore, but that it must take a back seat while today’s Armenia steadies itself in rough waters. There is nothing to be gained from belligerence by any party at this time, but a lot of potential benefit that can be realized from cooperation, peace and friendship on all sides. We have to be practical. All nation states do business with other countries that often do not necessarily share the same values, politics or economic system. So, despite what may be serious differences, these are overcome in order to create win-win situations for their respective peoples. For some ideologues on both sides, it may seem to be an outlandish suggestion, but if Armenia is going to survive and thrive, it needs to have good working relationships with all its neighbors. There is no other way, because the status quo is not leading to the right outcomes. 
     
     

  735. Monastras, please be assured that now that the door has been opened, Armenians, Greeks, Jews and Assyrians will be making their rightful claims for the return of illegally confiscated property.  Let truth and good laws prevail.  Or do you prefer to live in a country where fairness is absent and corrupt government and police call the shots?

    Further, you are a defender of your country and no one can fault you for that.  Yet sometimes a true patriot must acknowledge wrongs that were done and be willing to speak of it, for the long term good of the country.  I, for one, don’t wish that bad things happen to you or your country.  I just want justice for mine.  All people deserve self-determination and security… Kurds…Armenians… Turks… Palestinians …Syrians… Israelis, etc.,  Stop promoting hate and racism with your comments.

     

  736. Karekin,our focus is on both Armenia & our sacred cause.You cannot expect the raped victim to marry the rapist can you?It is the rapist’s duty to accept his crime & get his punishment.All cultures & societies(even the Turkish)in this world function on this principle.

  737. Dear Gayane, I only speak the truth in any subject matter and for anyone in particular that has any merit to speak of my dear!

    Dear VTiger, Your justifiable points are very well taken and to the very point to Monastras.  She is off the subject, isn’t she, other than wining, I mean.

    Dear Boyajian, Vochinch friend.  Very well said to Monastras, as we wish our self determination and security as well as for the Kurds, the Assyrians, the Greeks, the Israelis, the Syrians, the Palestinians and so forth…. Thanks for very your well thought out point!  Because each and every nation on earth deserves the right to have her just place under the sun!!!!!  What you said and I most certainly areed with you on a differenet post, VIVE LA DIFFERENCE!!!!!

  738. Karekin,      I’m not trying to psychoanalyze you, but it looks like you’re showing dual personality disorder symptoms. They result in schisms that one can’t but notice in your posts. You at times lose focus on central idea and post absurd comments. How can Diasporan Armenians focus all of their time, energies and monies on Armenia and Artsakh while being the descendants of victims of Turkish barbarism? What are you made of? Steel? How is it possible to focus completely on something while having an open sore? As for the phrase “wasting time attempting to damage Turkey” it is just preposterous. Is there any more damage that the one Turkey had done to Armenians? If a retaliatory quest for justice is damage, then physical extermination of a whole nation is what??

  739. ragnar naess,    are you contemplating responses to many enquiries that were left unanswered by you here, or you felt the need to put on hiatus and consult your bed-side book Death and Exile by Turkish sell-out McCarthy?

  740. Re: Some thousand of Armenian pupils of illegal immigrants had been accepted to the Armenian and the state schools even though, Georgian, Moldavian, Africans,Arab, Pakistani pupils are still lacking of schools.’
     
    There is no record of  children of undocumented Armenian immigrants being accepted to Turkish State schools.
    All information pertaining to Armenian children attending schools in Turkey indicates that they will be attending Armenian private schools.
     
     
    Some excerpts from TodaysZaman (Sept 2, 2011) to put the alleged magnanimous  act of Turks in perspective:
     
    [News reports on Friday said Education Minister Ömer Dinçer had given his permission to allow Armenian children residing in Turkey as irregular immigrants to unofficially attend classes in Armenian schools in the next school year.]
     
    [“The ministry has given the necessary permission and we are very happy about this,” Deputy Patriarch Ateşyan stated.]
     
    [He said the Armenian community has been fighting to allow irregular immigrants to attend Armenian schools for two years. According to Ateşyan, about 1,000 children from Armenia are living in Turkey with their parents, who have come here for work but have no papers. ]   (emphasis mine)
     
    After having exterminated 2 million Armenians (1895-1923), after having forcibly expelled the survivors from their ancestral homeland of about 5,000 years, after having confiscated and stolen US$ 10s of billions in liquid and illiquid Armenian assets, not counting the value of stolen land, Turks magnanimously allow 1,000 Armenian children to attend Armenian private schools.
     
    The grandiose  magnanimity of Turks takes your breath away, doesn’t it ? what are you ingrate Armenians still complaining about ?
     
    {NOTE: Since mid 1950s, modern Germany has paid about  US$ 70 billion}
    {          in reparations to Jews for the Nazi crime of the Holocaust.            }
    {          This does not include any aid and support Germany provides to   }
    {          the State of Israel.                                                                 }. 

  741. Ragnar, you have been more than fair in answering my many questions and I thank you for allowing me to draw this out of you.  I have not been ignoring your recent posts to me.  I simply found myself at a loss for words and the need to step off the merry-go-round.  You have made your position and preconceptions very clear.  I am not an historian and there certainly are others better equipped to answer and argue with you.  I especially enjoy reading your exchanges with Gor and learn a lot from them.

    I am not going to respond point for point.  We have exchanged comments for over a year now and I feel I have very little new to add.   If you do complete a book, I can only hope that your time spent here with Armenians will help you to understand the need for justice, and that this awareness will shape your book.  
     

  742. Ragnar,  I forgot to add a comment above regarding your criticism of Avery which I think was out of line.  You don’t have to agree with him or like what he has to say, but you certainly can’t discredit him as someone who does damage to the Armenian dialogue with Turks.  Its only your opinion, but I completely disagree.  Avery is admired and respected by many here as a strong advocate of the Armenian Cause.  You seem to have bought into the Turkish mindset that it is ‘rude‘ to call murder, murder; and to demand restitution from the guilty.   You worry too much about the sensitivities of Turks, while ignoring the unhealed and oozing wound of the Armenians.  This seems unbalanced to me.

    Two more strong retorts from Gor and Avery!

  743. Karekin– you got off the horse carriage YET AGAIN and not just simply got off but you were thrown off… and like Avery my dear friend said.. the starts got out of their alignment after a short period of time.. WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY OFF.. and he is right on the dot….

  744. VTiger– love love love your reply to Monastras..:) guess that is how denialists Turks operate they bring in other matters, data, topics to confuse the conversation because that is the only way they can get out of the end zone that they put themselves in.. they have no where to run anymore and need an escapte route and by throwing different non related data is the most sensible way for them.. typical.. but thanks for redirecting Monastrast who TO THIS DAY has not answered to Avery who repeatedly asked her to admit or deny her most Anti-Armenian and disrespectful comment she posted on her own Turkish site… shame on you Monastras..

  745. Avery very well said.These Armenian children attending Armenian schools which are run by private Armenian funds & is not costing a single penny to the Turkish state.Turkish minister just gives permission for them to attend,which they were barred from until now.What a great cultured deed.What a cultured society & government!Lady Monastras sees this as a big deal.How could they even think of barring children from attending schools?
    I am perplexed at their logic & above all their racism against the Armenians.But not surprised knowing them.
    However when we compare the Armenian Genocide with Holocaust,ours is much worse,as not only we were massacred,on top we lost our homeland while the Jews gained one.

  746. Gor– you got it my friend.. Karekin is just that….your post was right on the dot… your reply to Ragnar was absolutely hillarious…  but soooooooooooooo true… another bull’s eye 

    Avery jan– no wods to describe my enjoyment when I read your post to Monastras.. such strong facts… thank you…    lets see how Monastras Khanum is going to slither herself out of this one…

  747. thanks for the support Boyajian.
     
    I can absolutely assure you that when I get criticized by  Turks and their Turcophile agents, I take it as a complement. Music to my ears.  I have done my job well.
     
     
    The only people whose opinion matters to me are my compatriots here.
     
    I have been called a lot worse on these pages and elsewhere by Turks and their Turcophile agents, than ‘being let loose’ .  
    The last person whose opinion would have any affect on my posting behaviour  or the intensity of  my comments would be a Denialist Turk or one of their Denialist agents.

  748. He-Rafi must  have gone  through a lot  of hard work,research to line up all those up above.Kudos  for a job  well done. My father attended  one  of the secondary schools in Erzeroum,named  SANASARIAN, photo of  which appeasrs  in prof. Richaard g. Hovhanissian’s  book by that title and I purchased  it from him with his  sig.on it when he was delivering a discourse  here in FL.
    My father graduated from that Sanasarian with gold medal ,learning besides subjects   and language in armenian, also French and Turkish. He was  fluent ion all and wrote in all. Later  he always remembered with  with nostalgia  his schoolsdays  there.At 17 he left for Istanbulla  to earn  bread  money  ,sending home for 5 siblings and parents.
    He always  told us about life  in Erzeroum,difficulties  his parents faced and harassment  stories .Later, when we were in our  higher teens , re  his father and eldest brother having been put  on DEATH  MARCH, where  they pperished. He and the rest  being away escaped  it. Grandma  was carried  on one uncle’s back across border to Armenia/Georgia…..etc.,etc., etc. 

  749. Avery jan I concur.. those denialists or Turcophiles who bring negative attention on to those of us and got critized more than some on these public forums means we did our job right…

  750. Abris bravo dear Gor for your just comments here to Karekin: “Is there any more damage that the one Turkey had done to Armenians?  If a retaliatory quest for justice is damage, then physical extermination of a whole nation is what??”

    How true!!! How true!!! and How true!!!  You put it well Gor jan, BRAVO and I loved the way you put it, thank you!!!!! 

  751. Avery jan, A job well done!!!!! Because you go to Today’s Zamaan and become aware of what’s going on, thanks to you now we know that the Armenian Children in Turkey have been denied to go to their own schools for 2 years, which is sponsored by Armenians mind you.  Thank you for letting us know what is really going on, my friend.  A good slap to Monastras (who brought this whole thing up herself) who keeps raving about their Turkish ways that are time and time again failures to come out clean for the Armenians in Turkey.

  752. Gor – I don’t get it…why do you keep referring to this ‘open sore’?  If that’s really the case, then you’re the one needing a shrink.  Plus, if anyone should have or would have had a long term problem, it would have been my grandparents…not me, or you. They lost everyone and everything. What have you lost? 

    From what I can see, you are perpetuating an open sore by not treating it, but instead, you keep picking at it…so, it will never, ever heal. In fact, it seems like you want to promote an infection, instead of a cure.  You seem to revel in the pain. There’s something very wrong with that. Do you spent your every minute reminding yourself of what Turks did to Armenians?  You do this as Armenians are murdered on the streets of Moscow almost every week or as Armenians in Hayastan live in shacks, without heat or running water?   

    The point is that your perpetual focus on what you see as an endlessly evil Turkey is neither helping Armenia, nor Armenians anywhere else. I fail to see how your rants are helping anyone. It becomes a broken record. We really need a new tune. There is a limit to the endless repetition of history, ad nauseum. Yes – even Armenians can become oversaturated with the constant drumbeat you play here. Raffi’s article is clear enough. What more do you need?    

  753. I acknowledge and recognize  TodaysZaman for their generally  accurate reporting of facts.

    Even when it may not hew the Turkish Nationalist line.
    I am aware of TZ’s  roots and founders.
    Nevertheless,  facts are facts.

    The Truth Shall Set You Free.

  754. Karekin, In the absence of Gor I wish to answer a couple of things that you said to Gor and I  know that – I believe I can say he – will answer to you and I believe he wouldn’t mind.

    In the first place Karekin, you cannot say to any Armenian what have he or she lost; because any sensitive patriotic Armenian such as Gor, myself, Avery, Gayane, Boyajian and VTiger and others as well, feel the horrendousness of the Armenian Genocide that have occurred.  That’s what you do not seem to get it and that’s your problem; certainly not Gor’s nor mine.  We have lost so much as a nation that sometimes even thinking about it my head would spin in desp

  755. Karekin, In continuation to the above post of mine, sometimes and it’s not just me; but out of 9-10 million Armenians I believe and I would think that at least 90% of them do feel the way we feel, and that is the enormity of the loss of our cream of the crop of people and plus our lost homeland it would make any patriotic and intelligently sensitive Armenian to feel extremely sad about it.  Yo-u don’t seem to get it, but my father used to say that our 1.5-2 Million martyrs were very good God fearing Christians, ingenius good natured people and on top of that our lands that we lost and because of it today we are scattered all around the entire world “taparagan Hayer”

  756. In continuation:  If in 300 years we Armenians who are scattered all around the world, if we don’t go back to our anscestral homeland, we shall become extinct, a lost civilization such as the Babylonians, the Assyrians, the Carpatians, etc. etc.  If don’t grasp the enormousness  and the horrible loss of the situation WE DO. That’s the difference between you and us.

    Karekin, the only reason that Gor or myself have to set the records straight and keep repeating because of denialist Turks that keep lurking in here and because people like yourself that claim that you are hbut your mindset is franky Turkofiland you don’t have the patriotic Armenian nerve in you,

  757. boyajian

    I am happy if you see my position clearer now. Regarding Avery, I thought my post was not permitted by  the moderator, because I did not see it. I do no know Avery personally, but I feel he is part of a certain role some people have in most social movements, the role of trying to uphold the cohesion in the movement by more and more uncontrolled, exaggerated and uncritical attacks on opponents, real and imaginary. I believe such a function is a sign of deep problems within the movement. On the other hand, those who continue to discuss in a factoriented and polite way with opponents represent the strenght of the movement. I belong to a political party in Norway which in the last municipal elections lost many votes, and I believe the reason was that some of us falsely felt they were in a kind of position that did not make it necessary to discuss in earnest with opponents, or – even more seriously – with people who have some interest in the issues and want both to be informed and to argue if they hear something they do not immediately agree with. If people are met with arguments of the type “all people who are knowledgeable agree that…” or “only those paid by X will say that….” the movement over time gets into trouble. – Yes, the discussions I have had on the pages of AW has greatly deepened my underatanding both of certain facts and about how English speaking Armenians relate to their traumatic past. To agree is – needless to say – another matter. But of course what still bothers me is that so many of you choose to be anonymous.

  758. In psychiatry, it is often said that a ‘cure’ is only possible if the patient really wants to be cured. I fully acknowledge that Armenians have been damaged by the traumas of 1915 (but let’s be honest, not every single Armenian on the planet is still ‘truamatized’). I know all the related history very, very well. At this point in history, I would submit that the best revenge is going to be a secure, thriving, healthy and successful Armenia.  Yes, there is an azad Hayastan on todya’s map, but does it meet all these criteria?  Not even close.  Why jeopardize Armenia by wasting precious time on Turkey?  If you really don’t care much for Turkey, just walk away from it and forget about it – completely. That’s what my grandparents did…they gave up on it as a hopeless case that made its anti-Armenian point very, very clear a long time ago with mass murder. So, why this obsession?  You can’t get blood from a stone, is what they would say.  That truism is still true.  Today, the overriding aim should be to protect and nurture Armenia and Karabagh. Armenia is having a tough time doing that…everyone should lend a hand there, because as far as I know, no one on these pages is planning to move, lock, stock and barrel to any formerly Armenian town or village in Turkey.

      

      

      
     

  759. Karekin,     I’m afraid with this weird, horrifyingly disengaged mentality: “if anyone should have or would have had a long term problem, it would have been my grandparents…not me, or you. They lost everyone and everything. What have you lost?”, you will never get it. You’re just one desensitized, apathetic species. Quite possibly, one of the kind among most modern-day Armenians who’re still deeply traumatized having lost their relatives, their ancestral lands, their culture, their properties to genocidal Turkish government and their nation, not occasionally xenophile Russian hooligans. And on top of that, never given an apology for the heinous crime. Doesn’t having an awkward mentality trouble you? If your daughter is raped in front of you, as was the widespread practice of the “civilized” Turks, would you tell: “well, it happened to her, not me”? Have you seen your physiatrist lately?

  760. “those who continue to discuss in a fact-oriented and polite way with opponents represent the strength of the movement.”    I believe I discussed in a fact-oriented and polite way with you, ragnar naess,   despite occasional impoliteness, such as ignoring to respond to posts during the discussion, or even explicit affronts towards a nation, such as “inbred” or “disposed of”.  And what appears to be the impact on you of my fact-oriented and polite discussion? You now call the Turkish crime by its proper name ‘genocide’ or you now admit that a million and a half people could not simultaneously agree to die in a year or two, but were, rather, deliberately and methodically mass murdered? Or maybe our fact-oriented and polite discussion convinced you that there is no real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians among the majority of scholars, historians, international lawyers, Nobel Prize laureates, as well as among foreign governments, professional associations, international organizations, provincial legislatures, advocacy groups, etc.? Or maybe you now stopped justifying Ottoman Turks’ genocidal extermination of Armenians as a ‘manifestation of paranoia’ and ‘overreaction that leads to murder’? Or our fact-oriented and polite discussion persuaded you that it is idiotic to equalize a centrally-planned, deliberate annihilation of a race with wartime atrocities against civilians ethnically representing a warring party? I did discuss these and many other issues in earnest with you, hard to object. What impact these honest discussions had on you? Are you now reading witness accounts, survivor stories, and Turkish Court Martial verdicts on mass extermination of Armenians in 1915-1923 at your bed side or you still keep Death and Exile as your bed-time book?

  761. Karekin,it’s not a shame to be in need of a shrink.I for one know that I have issues but at the same time know that no shrink will be able to help me.Yes my grandparents lost everything & what I lost is massacred aunts,uncles,unborn cousins,generations & above all lost my homeland.Their pain has passed to me.Do you think that I am a happy person with so much pain?Don’t you think that I envy others without any pain except for their daily issues?
    What is your treatment & cure for this disease?Let me know if you have one.
    Yes I see evil Turkey because it still denies the Genocide & I cannot let it die until my massacred ancestors get justice.I will rant,I am the broken record & I will continue on & have passed it to my children & will pass it to my grandchildren.
    Whoever is saturated & does not care about justice to their massacred ancestors can take a different route.Good luck to them & nobody can stop them & let us see if they will achieve anything.They will be eaten raw!
    I have a just cause & this is my legal weapon & I will use it until I get a just justice.Why should a criminal go free without getting his punishment?

  762. gor

    no, you and I have discussed a lot, and I feel that the tone has been oriented towards facts and has been polite. I repeat I am sorry for using expressions like “disposed of”, because I realize that it is hurtful. Please again accept my apologies. I was not aware of the full implications of an expression like this. However, the expression “inbred” is about a circle of discussants that support each others in ways that hinded the development of a discussion. It may be polemical, but we are all polemical at times. However, I feel I have had difficulties reaching through to you with my views. About calling things with its proper name, we have different ideas about the relationship between names and what the name refers to. For me a name is next to nothing if one does not explain and define. I sometimes say “the deportations and massacres of Armenians”, sometimes “the relocation and massacres of Armenians”, sometimes “the Armenian genocide”. – And whether there is an agreement among the majority of researchers or not is not so interesting for me if I see serious flaws in the reasoning of this majority. And as I have said I completelty disagree with your analysis of the fate of the Bulgarian Turks. I believe your thinking is not in line with human rights at all. But then let us agree to disagree. Maybe we can take up this thread sometimes again.  

  763. Ragnar-.. is it hard to swallow the fact that Avery tells it as it is?  Are you intimidated by the fact that your knowledge is simply a child’s toy against Avery’s and Gor’s knowledge?  Is this your way of justifying your lack of it???  Because frankly my dear, I DON”T GIVE A DAMN what you think how some of us present ourselves on these pages.. because our actions is a reaction to people like you who is hiding BEHIND the fake polite and make belief civilized way of communicating    BS but knows nothing about it as we have seen in many of your posts..ESPECIALLY when you refer to us as “inbreds” and our ancestors as garbage who have been “disposed”…you are someone who tries so hard to achieve what you are here to achieve..and that is: to stir up choas.. to create confusion.. to spread inaccurate and fabricated information and to muddy up our names by false accusations… you, who is hiding behind JR. historian BS but yet knowing NOTHING about true history.. you who shows no traces of neutrality or equality…  so instead of putting down my friend Avery who one strand of hair is more precious and priceless than the whole of you, you SIR watch what you yourself represent and maybe then you would understand that what you spew on these pages are just that.. FILTH…

    and you trying to pull a Robert on us is not even funny.. you keep saying the same thing over and over when we already explained to you in details, especially Avery that NO ONE on any public pages including yourself will reveal THEIR personal life/information…I believe it was Gor or Avery who asked you WHY do you need our information??? I just don’t get it..  Maybe I should ask this question.. What do you mean by hiding?? What is your interpretation of hiding (in your messed up head)…   

    Thank you and have a nice day… (I hope this was polite enough..)

    Gayane  

  764. VTiger jan– great reply.. It seems to me that Karekin suffered nothing.. he is one of them people who would say “you broke my arm and a leg..you killed my parents and grandparents.. but it is ok.. i deserved it and i will forgive you and forget about it…”  yeah it make sense.. he is sick in his head…..

  765. Let he without sin cast the first stone. There are living criminals running free everywhere in the world, in the US, in Turkey and yes, also in Armenia!  To level the ‘criminal’ charge against living human beings whom you have never met in person, nor ever will, is not my idea of humanity. Let’s say your neighbor’s kid goes crazy and kills someone…it’s not an accident, because he became crazy. Do you then accuse the kid’s brothers, sisters, parents, cousins, grandparents, or future children with being criminals, too?  This is not a justification of anything or an attempt at negating the need for an apology or reparations or anything else, but at some point, the perpetuation of such intense anger – to the point where you want to pass it on to your kids – becomes a counterproductive quicksand for all involved. 

  766. there is no real disagreement about the fate of the Armenians among the majority of scholars, historians, international lawyers, Nobel Prize laureates, as well as among foreign governments, professional associations, international organizations, provincial legislatures, advocacy groups, etc.? 
    Dear Great Armenian Scholar

    You have been caught red handed.You can not escape from the question. Why you the Great Armenians have failed to submit a petition to the International Court of Justice?  Do not move you have been framed.
     

  767. Karekin,you are way off mark.Nobody is discussing or accusing individual Turks.
    We are talking,blaming the Turkish state with their contiuous denial,no apology no reparations & all that.The more the Turkish state coninuous denial of Armenian Genocide,theft of my homeland,reparations… the more I am adamant to chase it in my own way.What quicksand are you talking about?
    I have said I have passed this cause to my children & I will definitely pass it to my grandchildren while still alive.And in case I’m dead I’ll make sure 100% that my children will pass it to their kids.
    You on your part try not to pass it to your kids.Let’s see if you’ll ever succeed.

  768. VTiger – I disagree – there is alot of deep venom here directed at ‘the Turks’, often with nothing more specific than that, and sometimes it extends to any Turkic human being from Istanbul to Central Asia.  Go back…read some of these posts. To me, this sounds like the demonizing of an entire group, which doesn’t sit well with me on any level.  We don’t appreciate when people say such things about Armenians in such a blanket way, so we should not hurl insults, either. 

    I can fully understand a certain amount of sadness when remembering the genocide – I totally get it. But, when the tone seems to be that you are bloody angry, 24/7,  about a thousand years of history, where does it end?  How does it end?  The lesson for the kids (and anyone else), is that history has been horribly unkind to many peoples, many nations.  But, two wrongs do not make a right, so maintaining a hostile attitude, toward a state, a governent of a group of people, is counterproductive and does not help the healing process, nor the chances for a full and honest acknowledgment of history by others. Of course I want to see Turkey not only acknowledge and apologize for 1915, and step up to the plate to make things right, but you must realize you are dealing with a group of people who were not even alive during the genocide or have no deep Anatolian roots in their past, as their families migrated to Turkey after the fact. Accusing Erdogan of ‘genocide’ or holding him responsible for it is like accusing Obama of genocide regarding Native Americans.  A million Iraqis died as a result of the US invasion…where are the charges? the accusations? the justice?  If that ever happens, it will come from within the US, perhaps with a push from outside.  Life and history are not tit-for-tat, or eye for an eye, exercises. If they were, we’d all be blind in one eye, which I guarantee you, nobody wants.  I know, you’re going to say, it’s just about justice…we want justice. Fine, no argument..go for it; but achieving that justice might just require a bit more finesse and alot less fervor, if it’s ever going to come about.

      

     

  769. gayane

    you write:
    because our actions is a reaction to people like you who is…..

    commment:

    do you mean to say that your actions may be exaggerated if seen in isolation, but understandable as a reaction?    
       

  770. Thus, ragnar naess,     I may conclude that except for your apology for the indiscreet use of the phrase ‘disposed of’, that has not even been a discussion point here, the “fact-oriented and polite” discussion with opponents, which you think generally represents the strength of the movement,  basically changed nothing in your views. You concur, as in “however, I feel I have had difficulties reaching through to you with my views”, that the idea of having fact-oriented and polite discussion is not the universal remedy for disagreements that opponents may have. Not because opponents are delusional and impolite, but because they may either ethnically belong to the murderer unrepentant nation or might be non-Turks who’ve been bought and paid for to advance denialism or spent some time of their life in Turkey enjoying flattery and thus became Turkophile or Turkocentric or joined the pathetic ranks of Armenian genocide denialists. Seriously, you may need to think twice about this idea of yours that fact-oriented and polite discussions represent the strength of a movement when you’ve witnessed what disoriented and impolite Turks or Turkophiles we’re dealing with on these pages.
     
    “For me a name is next to nothing if one does not explain and define.”   The term ‘genocide’ has been amply explained and defined for the mankind. Moreover, it’s been explained and defined based, in tandem with the holocaust of the Jews, on the Turkish annihilation of Armenians. Moreover, a UN Genocide Convention has been adopted based on that explanation and definition and an ICTJ resolution, acknowledging Turkish barbarity against the Armenians as genocide, has been passed based on that explanation and definition. Therefore, it is no longer about explaining and defining the term. Rather, it’s about having integrity and courage to accept the truth and contribute to justice that Armenians advance worldwide.
     
    “I sometimes say ‘the deportations and massacres of Armenians’, sometimes “the relocation and massacres of Armenians’, sometimes ‘the Armenian genocide’.”    Simply not true. You’ve never said ‘the Armenian genocide’. Prove me wrong by referring me to any of your posts in this thread. Rather, you rushed to call the wartime atrocities against the Turks of Bulgaria, who were a civilian part of the Ottoman Turkish belligerent party, as genocide, thus juxtaposing the two incomparable cases.
     
    “And whether there is an agreement among the majority of researchers or not is not so interesting for me if I see serious flaws in the reasoning of this majority.”   Not quite so. You’re predisposed to seeing flaws in the reasoning of the majority. Not once have you critiqued the flaws in the reasoning of the bunch of genocide deniers, like McCarthy, who holds a ridiculous view that mass murders and forced deportations of the Armenians occurred as part of a civil war and were triggered by World War I, in which equally large numbers of Armenians and non-Armenians died. There is an agreement among the majority of researchers that such a view is rubbish, but since you say the views of the majority are not so interesting for you, do you agree with minoritarian McCarthy’s reasoning that Armenians, from the one hand, and Turks, from the other, were engaged in a civil war just like Confederates and Abolitionists in America or Whites and Reds in Russia? Do you agree that World War I had anything to do with triggering mass murders and forced deportations of the Armenians, the prevailing majority of whom were nowhere near the frontlines? Do you agree that during the mass murders and forced deportations of the unarmed, defenseless Armenians equally large numbers of non-Armenians might have died in the hands of the Armenians?
     
    “I completely disagree with your analysis of the fate of the Bulgarian Turks.”    We certainly can agree to disagree, but, regardless, equalization of the deliberate annihilation of a race by its own government with wartime atrocities that unfortunately, yet inevitably, affect a civilian population is the most absurd analysis I’ve ever come across. Do you think such equalization of the victims of deliberate genocidal annihilation and victims representing a party to a war, which in the first place had massacred Bulgarian civilians, is a fair tribute to human rights? If your reasoning for the Turks in Bulgaria was in line with human rights, we should have at the very least seen your concern about ethnic Bulgarian villagers savagely slaughtered by the Turks and Muslims before Turks suffered reciprocal atrocities from the Bulgarians and the Russians in the war. If you’re so devoted to human rights, why do you hyperbolize one atrocity and omit the other?

  771. Karekin,’deep venom’ is directed to those Turks who ‘DENY’ similar to their state.They become one.I/we have nothing against common Turks who do not deny.
    In all world cultures there is respect to their ancestors (including the Turkish) where on certain dates they visit their cemeteries & pay their respects.Where’s mine?Healing process starts when Turkey accepts,apologises…which it does just the opposite,which of course it makes me angry/angrier 24/7 & more adamant to continue with the struglle.Turkey is the inheritor of the Ottomans & Young Turks.How bizarre it would be if Germany denies the Holocaust on the basis that it was the nazi Germany that committed it…Jews/Israel & Germany have passed through the healing process meanwhile us are still…
    Iraqis were not subjected to a total annihilation/genocide/ethnic cleansing & did not lose their homeland & that is not a good example to compare with ours.With our own individual efforts we’ve achieved a lot & the work has not finised as yet until Turkey accepts & so on…

  772. By the way, ragnar naess,    since for you, like you said, a name is next to nothing if one does not explain and define, I purposely retrieved the explanation and definition for another ridiculous term in the denialists’ vocabulary: “the relocation of Armenians.”  Oxford English Dictionary defines ‘relocation’ as follows: ‘a move to a new place and establishment of one’s home or business there’.  Kindly explain, when you say “the relocation of Armenians”, what new place did the Armenians move to and where are the homes and businesses that they established? Just pinpoint, if you will, what new places in Turkey the two million of ‘relocated’ Armenians now live and do business in?

  773. gor
    I just try to use different names, not to tie me up to any definite vocabulary because this is used to indicate partisanship, and does not explain much in itself. As you know I disagree with aspects of both the genocide scholars’ and the traditional Turkish view. –  To insist on certain names when asking for opinions is for me part of political rhetorics, not analysis. The main description and explanation regarding the events of 1915-16 I have given elsewhere, so the word used – “relocation” or “genocide” means pointing to what I have in mind, and have explained elsewhere. Sorry if this has cause confusion. But the point is probably that you want me to use the word “genocide”, repeating it and repeating it as a kind of marker of allegiance. But I dont do this. –   Regarding “relocation” it is the word used by the official Turkish position. Regarding the reality of the word, we see that those Armenians who were placed in tents in Zor or along the Euphrates were never “relocated”, that is never resettled, as far as I know, whereas those who ended up under the jurisdiction of Cemal Pasha mainly were relocated in the sense that they actually were settled. Of these, those who survived the last years of the war, or did not leave for other countries, survived to live in the area of today’s Libanon, Syria, Jordan and Palestine. Mainly Lebanon, if I am not mistaken. 

  774. Ragnar– you said to me
    commment:
    do you mean to say that your actions may be exaggerated if seen in isolation, but understandable as a reaction?   

    I say- when it comes to YOU and the denialists on our pages.. ABSOLUTELY NOT..NEI, HAYIR, XEYIR, UGUI, NEJ, OHI, NYET, NO, VOCH, VOCH VOCH... hope you understood… 

  775. ragnar naess,    I don’t want you to use the word ‘genocide’ repeatedly as a kind of marker of allegiance. You said you sometimes used “the Armenian genocide”.  I say you’re lying. Not once have you used it. Prove me wrong, if you can. Or visit Jewish online publications and dare to operate with terms such as ‘crime’, ‘murder’, ‘relocation’ instead of a proper term. Go tell the Jews that you prefer not tying yourself up to any definite vocabulary because this is used to indicate partisanship and does not explain much in itself. See what response you’ll get from the Jewish groups.
     
    You say: “To insist on certain names when asking for opinions is for me part of political rhetoric, not analysis.”  First of all, you’re not asking for opinions. You visit an Armenian online publication and debate from an already established platform. One also wonders as to how you can conduct analysis without ascertaining the name of the crime in question? Analysis of what? Some phantasmagoric occurrence? For Raphael Lemkin it never was a political rhetoric. He was courageous enough to analyze the cases of the Armenian and Jewish race annihilation and come up with the correct term as a gift to the mankind. To you, too.
     
    Re: ‘relocation’.  If the word is used by the official Turkish position, which, as I hope you understand, is denialist and distortionist, do we have to parrot it? Most historians claim that Tehcir Law was the proof of statewide activity in terminating the Armenian people, which is categorized as the state-organized genocide. According to Arnold Toynbee, at least 50 percent (up to 700,000 people) would be casualty of these forced deportations. Those whom you mention as survivors ending up in the areas of today’s Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and Palestine, were not relocated by the Turkish government, that is: they were not, according to the definitions that you so like, ‘moved to a new place and established home or business there’. They survived death marches, concentration camps, en route massacres, and Armenian Auschwitz Birkenau extermination camp: Der Zor. So, I guess, in your imagination, marching Armenians to the sunny Syrian desert with no food or water, subject them to diseases, attacks, and abductions, is relocation? Is this how Turks and Turkophiles imagine ‘relocation’ of human beings? Very civilized…

  776. John the turk– you finally decided to come out huh? well at least it is a start….but i still think Christian name …your way of thinking.. ummm..can’t say they go hand in hand…… 

    you are implying that Gor was caught red handed?? REALLY? for what???

    if you ask me… i think YOU got caught red handed for being someone who is not intelligent enough to get it.. to understand it, to be able to read what was provided ..you have all the answers you need why do you keep repeating the same thing over and over.. i swear it is Robert the Turk and you relate somehow as he repeats the same things over and over as well..   

  777. John the Turk:

    Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, himself, on April 24th, 1920, called what happened to the Armenians, ‘a shameful act.’  Check your own history.  Turkey has been running from this truth for over 90 years.  But like a fugitive on the run, Turkey cannot run forever.  The truth will catch up with your nation.  Freeze!  You have been caught.

  778. V – I agree and understand your points, which are valid, but…a key difference you can’t ignore is that Germany was completely defeated and brought to its knees by the US, Russia and really, the rest of the world.  The aftermath was dictated by the victors. If something similar had happened to Turkey, we’d have a very different picture now, but it did not, so you cannot keep drawing a comparison.  On the surface, it seems like apples to apples, but in many ways, it is very different, particularly with the outcome.  Plus, none of the victors were on the side of Armenia or Armenians in a way that would be of help. Yes, part of Armenia was Sovietized and thus, saved from complete destruction, but animosity from the West got in the way in later years. Turkish Armenia and its plight was completely forgotten.

     

  779. Karekin- I agree with VTiger..but disagree.. HUGE HUGE disagreement when it comes to you and how you present yourself on these pages… are you intentionally spreading lies and inaccurate information about your own people because you yourself feel defeated and small?? Why would you do that?? Do you get satisfaction for dragging your own people through mud and spewing false accusations about us? Does that make you happy? Do you get off by putting down group of individuals who stand behind justice and will never step down (unlike you) until justice finally prevails?  You know what Karekin, do you even consider yourself an Armenian or supporter of Armenian cause? I say no.. otherwise you would not speak of such nonsense

    there is alot of deep venom here directed at ‘the Turks’, often with nothing more specific than that, and sometimes it extends to any Turkic human being from Istanbul to Central Asia.

    I am personally calling you a liar.. HUGE ONE… because NO ONE on this thread EVER said anything negative against an ordinary Turks.. every comment that was posted on this page was directed to TURKOPHILES, TURK DENIALISTS, TURKISH GOVT (including the Ottoman savages) AND people who go against their own people such as YOU… I dare you to go dig out a sentence that was directed  to any ordinary Turk.. Go and dig up the information.. until you do EVERYTHING YOU SAID AND CONTINUE TO SAY gets mental deletion … Shame on you Karekin.. Shame shame shame.. all your efforts to help Armenia and Artsagh goes down the drain not because it may not be true but you present yourself in a way that I don’t want to associate myself with you.. and i don’t care if you don’t care whether or not I want to be associated with you, i just wanted to voice it…

    I can fully understand a certain amount of sadness when remembering the genocide – I totally get it. But, when the tone seems to be that you are bloody angry, 24/7,  about a thousand years of history, where d oes it end?  How does it end?

    really? just a certain amount of sadness??? you feel certain amount of sadness for losing your entire family to a savage civilazation?? is that how much feelings you have for your lost family and wealth??? Do you think we are angry 24-7??? well you must be a fortunate teller to know all this because i for one, i am pretty happy most of the day. the only time I get really frustrated is when I come here and read your stupid comments along with Ragnar’s and Turk denialists… but to say 24-7 that is a lie… you are lying yet agan…

    it will never end Karekin.. NEVER until we get closure.. so don’t get your sorry hopes up that by being so negative will help you to achieve your goal…i for one will never ever support you in any way… no matter how much you say you love Armenia….

    Gayane  

    Gayane

  780. Hovhan jan– BAM!!! You said it my friend… apres…

    Gor jan– Ragnar has no where to run anymore.. his head has to stop banging at some point and it finally happened.. he can’t go against you no matter how much he tries.. and I love the fact that every time he tries, you immediately and beautifully with full of facts stop him dead on his tracks.. love it.. :) 

    Gayane

  781. gor

    I am afraid you are chasing windmills. On august 15  I wrote on this Bedrosian thread:
    Second
    I hope to have Norwegians at large get interested in the issue. The problem now
    is that nobody is interested. Whether this is done by political means, by
    trying to mobilize Amnesty International or by other means is another matter.
    At the moment I am writing a book whose bottom line is that Turks must go into
    the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide, understood as
    formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ, is the most important.
     

    note that I use the expression but qualify it, as I said. Honestly, gor, what are you aiming at? I belive you owe me an apology. 

  782. Karekin,   You speak of healing process.  The only way that will happen when the Turkish government accepts the Armenian Genocide and pay reparations to Armenians.

     

  783. Relocation of a people from one’s homeland is a form of Genocide.  Thus the relocation was a mere death marches of the Armenian people from their homeland by the Turkish government of 1915.

  784. ‘I am personally calling you a liar..’  (to Karekin)

    I second that Gayane. 

    Karekin, produce the posts or sentences that you consider as ‘a lot of deep venom’ towards (Ordinary) Turks, or withdraw your accusations. 

  785. Monastras

    I have not heard from you lately. I cannot find the questions you allegedly asked of me, and you have not commented on my arguments for genocidal intent in the ittihadist center. Unless the debate between Armenians and Turks focus on the central themes of the question, the debate will go on unresolved forever. If the Turkish side does not make an effort to answer these arguments regarding themes and questions whose answers really makes a difference, debates will be some kind of strange games in which discussant stamina and small victories on details will be the dominant feature, not any overall strategy of dialogue on facts and evaluations that may eventually produce the most important answers.  

  786. Ladies and Gents.. ladies and Gents… STOP THE PRESSES. STOP THE PRESSES..Ragnar AFTER a year or so of debating and after Gor and I (my post did not get through…) called him out for lying through his teeth when he stated that he did use Armenian genocide, he FINALLY uses it in his last post to Gor

     Ragnar said: note that I use the expression but qualify it, as I said. Honestly, gor, what are you aiming at? I belive you owe me an apology

    He used the expression just for the heck of it to show us he used it but he forgets that NO ONE gives a damn whether or not he used it .. because it is all a mask.. all with ill intention because he knows he go caught red handed.. no where to run and no where to hide….now because he used this expression, he is using it AGAINST Gor and ON TOP OF THAT.. WITHOUT SHAME.. Without remorse.. He demands an apology… an apology from Gor…. CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS??? Can one be as blunt and has this much audocity to ask for an apology when no apology is due… when it is HIM that needs to apologize and kiss our feet for forgiveness of all the fabricated, messed up, confusing, and false accusations he dumped on us.. WOW.. WOW..WOW…Do you have SHAME Ragnar.. it is very embarassing for a 70 years old to act like a 13 year old.. Grow up sir.. grow up… 

    ragnar said: I hope to have Norwegians at large get interested in the issue. The problem nowis that nobody is interested.

    can you do us a favor and stop doing this or that to help this or that.. because apparently if i had YOU to help me make up my mind on something, i for sure won’t be able to do so.. you are as confused, as crazed up, as lost as any Turk denialists … the more you try the more you are confuse the heck of everyone.. so instead of helping this or that why don’t you help yourself to a nice dose of reality shot.. and that is.. YOU can’t, and will never be able to help educate anyone as you yourself can’t and will never be fit to do so… please acknowledge it and go live your life and enjoy whatever years you have left without pounding and shoving bias stories and information down your countrymen’s throats.. not that Norwegians are dying to listen to you….  

  787. It’s interesting that your treatment of a fellow Armenian is so unkind as to be hard to distinguish from your approach to your adversaries.  By discussing things in a realistic, not fantasy – Disneyland way, I too become the target of your venom, which seems to ooze out very easily.  You are clearly not about having a discussion, you are all about pummelling anyone who doesn’t boost your line of thinking, lock, stock and barrel.  You insist on words that go in perfect lockstep with your mindset…there can be no grey areas…you are always right, 1000%!  And, you seem to insist on having your own way, by stepping on anyone else who sees the glass as being half empty vs half full.  For those who might want to have an intelliigent discussion on this topic, it seems they always get cornered by the same bullies. Might I remind you that this is what the CUP did to Armenians? 

    I would suggest that you all go back and read your own words, words that very often refer to today’s Turks (presumably all of them – not just denialists) as central Asians, as thugs, as barbaric, as murderers, as people whose grandfather’s killed yours, stole your lands, your homes, your churches, etc, etc, etc.  Now, I’m no fan of any of the Young Turks, of the CUP, of Enver, Jemal or Talaat…and their killing machine or those from outside Turkey (Germany) who supported them. They are all criminals, without question. At the same time, they are all dead as doornails. Some were executed for their crimes inside Turkey, and others, like Talaat who met their end by the hand of a courageous and heroic Armenian.  It seems that you are equating the crimes committed by the original murderers, all of whom are long gone, with those living in Turkey today…and saying that they are all equal.  And while being a hard core denialist is bad, it is not as bad as those who committed the actual crimes, and this is because with the right education, without lies or political pressure, every denialist can and probably will step out of their little mental box.  It is the same kind of box that kept Russians living under a failed political and economic system for 80 years.  Most hated it and knew it was a lie, but what were the alternatives?  What could they do on their own?  The system was too big and too powerful for them to speak out or act out, no matter what their convictions were.  If/when Erdogan and his government remove the penalties associated with discussing the Armenian genocide openly and honestly, without the threat of legal action, the intellectual and educational situation inside Turkey will change, because beneath the veneer of lies, brainwashing and propaganda, there is an ocean of truth that is known and understood by millions of Turks.  The idea is to encourage those truths to come to the surface, to be seen and understood by everyone involved on this issue. 

     

  788. Karekin,as said before we’ve achieved a lot (the diaspora) with our own efforts without having the backing of a government.In case you have a new method for the struggle then let us know about it in detail.Some of us might be convinced & follow.
    With the football diplomacy we saw what terms Turkey exerted on us on behalf of Aliyevistan.I heard Erdogan’s speech at the UN yesterday…nothing has changed… the current Turkish government’s policies are exactly the same as Young Turks’ & Kemal Mustafa’s…
    The struggle continues.

  789.  ‘a lot of deep venom’ towards (Ordinary) Turks, ? here is only  a few …

    it is imperative to focus our energies onTurkeyin an effort to demean it, tear it down, etc

    However, it is this writer’s humble opinion that  the artificial country ofTurkeyis ripe for disintegration. 

    With Turkeyon an inexorable march back to its Islamist roots, the West will finally come out of its hibernation and withdraw its massive support of the GenocidalState.
    Without massive support from the West,Turkey will continue its disintegration which was arrested by massive support from the West (and Bolshevik Russia) during 1915-1923. The 25-30 Million Kurds and Zaza will tear it apart from inside. Ethnic Turks have more enemies that they can deal with.
    Payback time you Genocidal psychopaths. 

    A British diplomatic way of saying “…we don’t want your Muslim Turk hordes invading our Western Christian Civilizations any more”. Maybe you guys need to start planning a trip back home – to theAltai Mountainsand Mongolian Steppes, your native homeland ?

    I proudly  troll the web for bad news about Turks and Azeris: enjoy it as a
    matter of fact: no surprise, I never made a secret of my dislike of the Fascist Turkish and Azeri States, pray daily in fact for their dissolution.

    And yes, Turks and Azeris truly fears us: you can tell by their hysterics and obsession withArmenia.

    Turkey’s inexorable  return to their Islamist roots will bring  it into a deadly clash with the Judeo-Christian West. Whether fair or not, the West, particularlyEurope,  cannot tolerate a dangerous Islamic state at its doorsteps. It will be dismembered, just like theOttoman Empire. Europeans have realized that allowing millions of Turks into their countries was a big mistake: Turks are a mortal danger to the existence ofEuropeas a Western Judeo-Christian civilization

    The relentless Turkophile  Agitprop and Anti-Armenian disinformation continues unabated.
    We therefore have no choice but to relentlessly and cheerfully counter said disinformation. No, please, no need for thanks: it’s our pleasure

    Has received 100s of US$ Billions in assistance from the wealthy West and USA.
    Military budget subsidized by the wealthy West for being part of NATO.
    Brand new modern factories designed and built in Turkey by Europeans (Germany) that produce consumer and white goods for the European, US, and Middle Eastern markets.
    Unrestricted, tariff-free access to the rich markets of the West

    Why Greece? because they are in the same neighborhood.
    They were under the efficient Capitalist system.
    Their Per Capita GDP is 3 times that of Turkey: any questions ?
    Tell me again how great the Turks are: Greeks and Turks have been the beneficiaries of West’s largess.
    Yet Greeks are doing 3 times better: any questions ?
    And Greeks are great people, but we all know they like the good life and are not particularly hard working, right ?  

    (this is wonderful news: the Kemalist vs Islamist clash is getting ripe. Coming up –  a military coup or civil war: either way would be great forArmenia)

    we have a tiger-team here: the Turks, Azeris and their agents are on the ropes  here. Let’s also start regularly going  to the Turkish sites – irritate the hell out of ‘em.

    Back to what I want forTurkey:
     
    I want Turkey to shatter into 3-4 pieces, so it no longer presents a clear and present danger to my homeland and my people… I would very much like for the Turks to go back to their own homeland at the base of the Altai Mountains….. So I don’t really care if it ends up being Islamist, Kemalist, Fascist, Communist, whatever.
    As long as it breaks up into manageable pieces…. The 25-30 Million Kurds and Zaza can no longer be contained. The more rights they get the more they’ll demand. Independence is only a matter of time. In this day and age suppression will not work either. And of course they are too numerous to be wiped out like Armenians were.
    Once Kurds and Zaza break free, the breakup of Turkey will pick up pace.
    Turkey has many, many enemies. When they go down like the Ottoman Empire, the long knives will come out to carve it up.
    And there are no Germans and Bolsheviks to save the Turks this time from ending up with a rump state……… I graduated with honors from the Armenian KGB’s (at the time) Directorate of Psychological Warfare, Psyops & Counter-Psyops, Disinformation & Counter-Disinformation School of Advanced Studies.

    I tell ya: if I wasn’t born Armenian, I would have  injected myself with some of them magnificent Armenian genes. Thems Armenians are amazing folks.

    Islam, Kurds and Armenians are going to tear Turkeyapart. When Western Armenia is liberated andRepublicofKurdistanhas established, Turks might have peace in the region

    Don’t you realize that the reason that you don’t look like an asiatic mongolian and insted look like an ARian ARmenian is also partly because of Brits?You should at least be thankful to them.  And if you don’t, you know what will happen?
    They will change your culture one more time.  Actualy I think you are the next on their list

    not too bad record For someone not graduated from KGB  , huh? MR Avery, The Great Hero ?

  790. I’m not chasing windmills, ragnar naess.    I’m chasing you because I sense you’re a genocide denier. I’m aiming at exposing you whenever you offer historical distortions, absurd equalizations, or sheer denialism of the genocidal intent in mass extermination of the Armenians.
     
    Thank you for the excerpt from your August 15 post addressed to Boyajian. My English language reading comprehension skills do not automatically put me at liberty of interpreting it as a proof that you “sometimes use ‘the Armenian genocide’.”  I can only see in the excerpt that ‘the Armenian genocide’ was used in the context of the ICTJ resolution and how the ICTJ–not you personally–had called the crime.  Read carefully:  “At the moment I am writing a book whose bottom line is that Turks must go into the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ [emphasis mine] is the most important.”  I have a difficulty seeing that the term was used by you in the context of “calling things with their proper name”, which was the point of our most recent exchange of views.
     
    Also noted is that a clause that followed this excerpt was conveniently omitted. Here it is: “[…] I support the Armenian cause with certain qualifications. I will not support the arguments forwarded bygenocide scholars and Armenian scholars when I experience them to be dubious or have been shown to be mistaken.” Read: “I will not support the argument in favor of genocide”, a major argument of international genocide scholars and Armenian scholars.
     
    Also noted is your post on the same day of August 15 addressed to Gayane: “But if you ask the question ‘was it a genocide?’ in a strictly juridical sense, that is according to the reasonings applied in the Convention and above all the verdicts regarding Rwanda and Bosnia and the legal opinions regarding e.g. Darfur, I am not sure [emphasis mine] and believe Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide […] [emphasis mine].”  You contradict yourself. On the one hand, you cite ICTJ criteria in the context of which ‘the Armenian genocide’ term was used, on the other, you doubt that according to the reasonings applied in the UN Genocide Convention one can maintain it was genocide. But ICTJ criteria were based on the reasonings applied in the Convention, weren’t they?  Also, “the verdicts regarding Rwanda and Bosnia and the legal opinions regarding Darfur” cannot be above the UN Convention as a fundamental international law on genocide. Legal opinions, as far as I know, do not have any juridical force, by the way.

  791. Karekin, I’ve said it before; your armchair psychology is leaving you ill-equipped to pass judgment on your fellow Armenians.   You may have found a way to rise above the collective pain of the genocide, but that does not give you the right to criticize others who are dealing with their reality in their way.   The Armenians are a communal people.  We confess our sins communally.   We create centers and build churches in all our diasporan communities. We wait to read the credits at the end of movies looking for the one or two Armenians listed, and delight in the chance encounter with any ian or yan we meet.  This communal identity comes from our shared history, deeply rooted to a place that we occupied for thousands of years and were displaced from only one hundred years ago.  That is a blink in time and not long enough to have erased our collective memory and attachment to the place that gave birth to our language and culture.   You are not giving the proper respect to those who are still suffering this loss because, unlike you, they have not given up hope to reclaim what is theirs.  You have accepted defeat and deal with it by focusing on what we have left.  Nothing wrong with this.  But there is also nothing wrong with struggling to right a wrong or find justice for a crime.  You can disagree and cope as you like, but it is not your right to demean those who are not like you.

  792. Dear Gayane and Avery, I also would like to have Karekin to produce sentences where anyone in here used ‘a lot of venum’ towards (ordinary) Turks.  

  793. gayane

    I wish you luck with your writings on your family. This is an important task. If I knew your family name I would have been happy to order your book (you told us in the Davutoglu debate that your first name in fact is Gayane) But when you say that I have nowhere to turn, I am afraid you are mistaken. Gor is not able to distinguish between the rights and duties of civilians and soldiers in the case of the Bulgarian Turks in 1878-79, and now he has accused me of lying about using the expression “Armenian genocide”, and I have produced an instance from august 15 when I used that expression. Regarding your input, it seems that we have a case of very loud shouting from the cheerleader in order to cover up mistakes in one’s own team…….. 

  794. gor

    you accused me of lying, and I proved you wrong. Your sophistries cannot save you from that. Be a man and apologize!  

  795. Karekin    —-For “a lot of venom”, please visit online Daily Zaman and Hurriyet. Believe me, you won’t be disappointed to see what rampant armenophobia the Turks express in regard to ordinary Armenians. Armenians, who didn’t mass murder Turks as a race or forcibly deported them from their ancestral homeland in Central Asia.

  796.  Ragnar was demanding an apology from Gor..my reaction to that???? With a LOUD laugh… i was laughing because of his shameless act.. I don’t know if Ragnar thinks we are bunch of stupids to do that but i know Ragnar with much shameless manner used the expression “Armenian Genocide” in his last post (see below) to show us “inbreds” that he does know the word Genocide and he uses it BUT of course we know he never did in the last year or so and i am positive he will never use the word going forward.. not the way it needs to be used.., .

    At the moment I am writing a book whose bottom line is that Turks must go into the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ [emphasis mine] is the most important.”  

    we know very well why he used it.. he used it to throw a bone at us..to say you guys are wrong accusing me for lying..and being a denialist… but reality remains as such: Ragnar did lie and he represents the denialists party…..talk about having the audocity playing us like this and THEN telling Gor to apologize to him.. wow…

    Ragnar–this is just my own opinion… you are not fit to be a historian or a writer merely because you don’t have the expertise, the knowledge nor the emotions to right a book that represents true history with accurate data and without being bias… you are not fit to be called a Historian or a humanitarian who pretends to work toward helping Turks to go into their dark pages of history and acknolwedge and accept the fault of their ancestors because you yourself is very bias toward your favorite party and that is not Armenia…just not happening… sorry to be blunt.. 

    Gayane

  797. Karekin,

    ԱՅՍՔԱՆ ՉԱՐԻՔ ԹԷ ՄՈՌԱՆԱՆ ՄԵՐ ՈՐԴԻՔ՝
    ԹՈՂ ՈՂՋ ԱՇԽԱՐՀ ԿԱՐԴԱՅ ՀԱՅՈՒՆ ՆԱԽԱՏԻՆՔ:

    Աւետիս Ահարոնեան

  798. IF ALL THE EVILS SHALL BE FORGOTTEN BY OUR OFFSPRINGS,

    LET THE ENTIRE WORLD TREAT ARMENIANS CONTEMPTUOUSLY.

    Avedis Aharonian
    translated by Seervart

    *I believe this is the better translation.* S      

  799. ragnar naess,    I hereby reiterate: not once have you—in the form of a personal assessment and out of the context of any document—used the term ‘genocide’ in describing the Turkish crime against Armenians. An extract from your post proves absolutely nothing because any literate person with a fair command in the English language would understand it as referring to the wording and formulation that the ICTJ—not you personally—used.  “Armenian genocide […] formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ (read: not my own criteria) cannot possibly represent your own denomination of the crime as such. It is you who resort to sophistries by choosing to offer a ‘proof’ as a seemingly plausible argument, whereas in reality it’s actually invalid and misleading.
     
    I’ve got othing to apologize: in this thread you’ve never denominated—in your own words and formulation—the race annihilation of Armenians as genocide.

  800. Necati     —-Where in the extracts that you brought forward do you find “a lot of venom” in regards to ordinary Turks?  I could only notice indignation against the state of Turkey, fascist Turkish and Azeri states, as well as mentioning of Turkish online sites, possible return of Turkey to their Islamist roots, bad online news about Turkey and Azeristan, etc.  Exactly where do you see any ‘venom’ (figurative noun for malice, hate, spite, etc.) directed at ordinary Turkish citizens?

  801. ragnar naess,     be a man, rephrase your statement as follows“Turks must go into black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide—as I understand and formulate itis the most important.”  This will be seen as the first instance when you will have used ‘the Armenian genocide’ understood as formulated in your own criteria and assessment, not those of the ICTJ or the International Association of Genocide Scholars or the European Parliament.  From then on, if I ever say you’ve lied that you used ‘the Armenian genocide’, I’ll be a man and apologize.

  802. Necati Genis oglu, here is what you said a little while ago:
    http://armenianweekly.com/2011/08/19/new-armenian-church-in-iraqi-kurdistan/#comments
    ——————–BEGIN PASTE
    necati August 20, 2011
    editor: i know you think i am a fascist, racist .
    you know that i was full of humanity until i met you Gaymenians in this f****** AW?
    You know i was one who can not kill even an ant ?
    You know i liked my ermeni friend too much before i met you?Now i  am thinking he makes role being  a human..
    sorry to tell you..i am not human , but a monster, a butcher, a pyschopat against you gaymenians…this is another reason for me to hate you gaymenians.you made me an animal.
    You must be proud of yourself.especially that one , f*****-up gayvery, the ex-commy.

    necati August 20, 2011 
    i just want to know: how a human can get happy for the death of another human who is even  a soldier? This avery is not human..neither am i from now.

                    

    necati August 20, 2011 
    and i am sorry for my bad words about editors of AW.
    Please accept my apologies.

    ————————–END PASTE
    BTW, I changed to ****: the original post had the words spelled out fully.
     
    Foul-mouthed Necati, I am surprised you  had the gall to come back to  @AW after that hate-filled Anti-Armenian outburst.
     
    Next,  regarding this: [necati September 23, 2011   ‘a lot of deep venom’ towards (Ordinary) Turks, ? here is only  a few …]
     
    You have mixed-in  excerpts from my posts with those of the others. (most are mine: I stand by them).
    Nevertheless, even sentences taken out of context by you from long posts do not remotely qualify as ‘venom’  against  Ordinary Turks.
    Nice try. No cigar.
     
     
    Finally, after you have profusely apologized to ALL Armenians (not just editors of AW), particularly Armenian posters here, for this……
    ‘..i am not human , but a monster, a butcher, a pyschopat against you gaymenians’
    ‘this is another reason for me to hate you gaymenians’
    ……I might discuss any particular post of mine with you here @AW. No promises  though: your Aug 20, 2011 outburst concerns me greatly.
    Maybe you need to see a specialist MD: your health should be of paramount importance to you, not Armenians.
     
     
    Any other Turk or Turkophile that wants to challenge me on any of my posts: reference the entire post, highlight the sentence you wish to discuss, and we’ll have a go at it.

  803. ragnar naess,     be a man, explain, if you will. If you think you used ‘the Armenian genocide’ in the following clause as a proof that you call things by their name: “[…] Turks must go into the black parts of their past, among which the Armenian genocide understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ is the most important”, yet the very same day you stated “[…] if you ask the question ‘was it a genocide?’ […] I am not sure and believe Armenians are too quick to maintain that it was genocide”, in which of these two instances are you being a man and honest?

  804. Ragnar– I will support and cheer my friends until the end.. you know why???? because Gor and Avery are two individuals who do not lie like you SIR..they don’t change their minds like you.. they dont’ present the wrong side.. YOU do…so if my cheering my friends for their righteousness and justice, then i guess i am an accomplice..and a very proud one…but please don’t hate…..

  805. Gor jan– I am 100% with you..excellent response to Ragnar.. Bravo…

    Avery jan– BAMMMMMMMMMMM!!!! bull’s eye..:)  love it…

    Karo jan– always great to have you with us… love your posts…   

  806. gor

    your assertion was that I never used the expression “The Armenian genocide”, which was wrong. Even that I lied. I do not remember the other instance you mention, but my point has been that many on these pages have a mistaken belief that the thesis of genocdal intent in the upper echelons of the CUP is established beyond reasonable doubt. So I may have referred to this. The context is always important. But I understand you will not apologize for your accusations of lie, which obviously was mistaken and insulting. 

  807. gor

    I did not see your first post. No, I have in mind the criteria used by the ICTJ, by force of their text and the reasoning used. They are not my criteria. In this sense many genocides happened. To maneuvre by selection of criteria in order that only atrocities committed against Ottoman Christians is considered genocide and not atrocities committed against Turks, is very questionable.  

  808. Monastras

    Let us assume that you are right and that  a considerable part of the deportations happened as a result of actions of the local officials, and against the will of the central CUP.  This indeed is in line with the points made by Christian Gerlach in his book “Extremely violent societies” (Cambridge 2010). His point is not to absolve the government of responsibility, but to point to the very broad participation of ordinary Muslims in plundering and killing Armenians. Almost everybody joined into the plunder ad killing, he says. As Karekin does he puts the emphasis on the economical motive. Gerlach did very important work on the Holocaust, but it is difficult to call him a genocide researcher since he is critical of the concept genocide as used in genocide research. He holds that the term genocide does not function as a good analytical term. But the moral debt of Ottoman Muslims will not be less if local officials on their own undertook these atrocities. I hope you return to the discussion to explain more.

  809. gor and Gayane

    I will try to explain better.

    gor you write:
    “For me a name is next to nothing if one does not explain and define.”   The term ‘genocide’ has been amply explained and defined for the mankind. Moreover, it’s been explained and defined based, in tandem with the holocaust of the Jews, on the Turkish annihilation of Armenians. Moreover, a UN Genocide Convention has been adopted based on that explanation and definition and an ICTJ resolution, acknowledging Turkish barbarity against the Armenians as genocide, has been passed based on that explanation and definition. Therefore, it is no longer about explaining and defining the term. Rather, it’s about having integrity and courage to accept the truth and contribute to justice that Armenians advance worldwide.
     comment:

    I feel we should stop discussing this, but I only say this: to agree on a definition is only half of the task, or even less, in a given case. A definition  must be used, it must be applied to actions. This holds for the concept of genocide in the Convention. How to apply it does not only depend on the  text of the definition, it depends on a lot of factual knowledge. To tak an example from another sphere: We may agree on a definition of “burglary” which excludes cases were doors were nor locked and people entered the hoiuse and stole, this is then not to be considered burglary, but this fact, the agreement on a definition, does not say anything about whether a door actually was locked in a given case or not.  Further: Primarily the defintion of genocide  must be applied to actions of individuals. Here it is a great difference if we apply it to people on the ground or if we apply it to leaders. It is very hard to deny that people on the ground in 1915 committed genocide, quite another thing to say that leaders did (instead of saying that they failed to stop it, which is what the commission on Jugoslavia says about the Serb leadership in regard to Srebrenitsa). – Second if we say “it was genocide” what does “it” refer to? The ICTJ talks about the “events, viewed collectively”. This opens for a whole range of questions, of another kind and very different from saying that such or such a person or group of persons committed genocide. – So I ask why do you feel constrained to formulate your case in a juridical language which opens for all kinds of technical questions? Why not primarily insist that  terrible atrocities and injustices were committed against Armenians, and that Turks so far have not related honestly to it, and have not given any compensation to descendants for properties expropriated or outright stolen? Describe the concrete actions as witnessed by many, show the facts of the original homeland being emptied of Armenians! This speaks for itself!  People will understand it, but not the wrangling about the application of specific juridical terms!  When I try to say something about gneocide, it is because i am constantly being challenged by people in the AW who feels that this word – the admission that this word explains the whole thing, the insistence that one has to repeat this formula “it was genocide” –will help Armenians in their quest for justice. But as a friend I say: dont rely too much on this word! Do not always put it in the headlines! Do not go into any dispute that offers itself about this word! And honestly, gor, you are not up to par in the question of application of terms in a juridical context! Maybe I also am not! I just expressed my opinion as a lay person. 
        

  810. Ragnar

    The questions should be in my previous posts. I will find and copy them here. As far as I am concern, I answered your question as well but I will recall your question and answer as soon as I can 

  811. gayane

    I have known  you for a long time, it is actually more than a year, and I believe you say what you stand for. That is good. I also believe it is good for the two gentlemen you mention to have somebody cheering them.  

  812. ragnar naess,   please stop.  You never used the expression ‘the Armenian genocide’ in the context of calling things by their name and as a revelation of your personal belief, criteria, and assessment. You used the expression as a sophistry in the context of the ICTJ wording, as evidenced in: “understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ.”  I offered you a chance to prove that the clause “understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ” reflects your own formulation, but you chose to ignore it. I’m giving you a second chance: rephrase your statement by replacing the clause “understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ” with this one: “as I understand and formulate it.” Unless you do so, I will consider my accusation that you were untruthful when you said you’ve used ‘the Armenian genocide’ in your personal—not ICTJ’s—context, to be accurate.
     
    Further, whether it’s questionable or not, the fact remains that the ICTJ recognized that only atrocities committed against Ottoman Christians are considered genocide and not atrocities committed against Bulgarian Turks. I gave you two reasons as to why I think the ICTJ might have done so, but I understand that no reasoning can soothe the soul of a Turkophile who sees things primarily from a Turkocentric angle.
     
    Further, I never claimed to be up to par in the question of application of terms in a juridical context, because in contrast to you I never claimed to be a polymath. I think if Armenians veer from application of a specific juridical term ‘genocide’, which legally defines Turkish atrocities and injustices, and primarily insist that terrible atrocities and injustices were committed against them outside the confines of a juridical term, Turks will use this as a conveniently handed over chance to equalize—like you do—centrally-planned atrocities and injustices against Armenians aimed at annihilation of a race and wartime atrocities and injustices against, for instance, Bulgarian Turks. Therefore, without application of a juridical term, Turks will easily arrive at an equation, which they’ve always attempted to advance, that ‘everyone suffered’. Reenergized by such an equation, why would Turks relate honestly to the terrible atrocities and injustices against Armenians? Why give any compensation to descendants for properties expropriated or outright stolen? Why consider restitution of the original Armenian homeland emptied of Armenians? After all, the terrible atrocities and injustices against them were not recognized in the juridical term, therefore the UN Convention cannot be applicable to the Armenian case and, consequently, no recognition, compensation, and restitution are needed at all.
     
    P.S.  I don’t’ know maybe in Norway folks can walk in an unlocked house, steal, and be not charged with burglary, but in America even if the doors were not locked and people entered the house and stole, they’d be charged with burglary.

  813. Ragnar– i am happy you know me.. even though I doubt you really do after you accuse me of hiding behind a fake name or calling out Robert the Turk as someone heartless and vicious.. ALL LIES LIES LIES.. just like you are trying to slither yourself out of the fact that you NEVER EVER (I know you for more than a year as well) you called Armenian Genocide as it is.. GENOCIDE… you never ever used the expression Armenian Genocide ON THIS PAGES or any pages how it should be used. TO US and EVERYONE ELSE who will be reading this thread will get the point.. that YOU will never use this word because you NEVER EVER believe in it… You keep using stupid reasons to justify as to why you won’t use the Genocide as it is.. GENOCIDE.. Gor asked you a very straight forward question.. WHY ARE YOU CONTRADICTING YOURSELF when you talk about Genocide.. you have been contradictive yourself alot… over a year or so…believe me you will NEVER EVER get an apology from me for one.. second i hope Gor does not either… you have to apologize TO ALL OF US for your shameless words and treatment of the Armenians on these pages and our ancestors for calling us “Inbreds” and our ancestors to be “disposed”… and you have the balls to ask for an apology that is not due to you??  HA.. i know it gets lonely when you don’t have people cheering for you Ragnar.. well change your confused self and step out of that enigma world of yours and stand up for the truth and justice and maybe you will have people cheering for you.. just don’t hate Ragnar..

  814. Ragnar– would nto that be nice and convenient to say that we should not hang on the word Genocide and should accept that there were autrocities and Turks have not faced up to their responsibilities of paying back.. ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND??? Autrocities??? of course if you use the word autrocities and not Genocide TURKEY will get off the case with mere slap on their hand.. YOU DENIALISTS are afraid of the word GENOCIDE (which occured between 1986-1923) because GENOCIDE comes with much harsher and bigger consequences, especially now turkish govt have bee denying it for almost 90 years… NICE TRY Ragnar… nice try…

    monastras – stop trying.. actually even if you try you won’t be able to respond to Ragnar’s questions because we know what will come out of your denialist mouth…   

  815. Gor jan– . brilliant as ALWAYS….

    apparently Ragnar leaves his valuables out in open: leave the doors and windown open for anyone to walk in and steal… how genereous of him.. ahhhhhhh..and when one does he is going to say it is ok.. that is not considered a burglary.. because in my messed up head i don’t see it that way…

  816. ragnar naess,    are the verbs ‘to murder’, ‘to slaughter’, ‘to massacre’ and so on, juridical terms? If they’re not and since you believe you generally call things by their proper name—as in ‘crime’ instead of ‘genocide’—what stopped you from using the verb ‘to murder’ instead of hypothetical ‘to die’ in this magnum opus of yours: “The majority of the historians say that 600.000 to 800.000 Armenians died in 1915-16”? Or maybe you think the verb ‘to murder’ is likewise a juridical term like the term ‘genocide’? Then please explain how several hundred thousand humans could reach a ripe age and die all together or refer us to one of the fables authored by McCarthy that maintains that an all-national convention was convened before 1915 during which several hundred thousand Armenians agreed to die all together in the consecutive two years. Or maybe you have some psychological problem with calling things by their name? Please advise.

  817. Friends, I agree with Darwin Jamgochian regarding the disintegration of the thread. 
    I suggest, for the sake of continuing a productive discussion in which we pursue the dissemination of truth, we simply accept that Ragnar acknowledges genocide happened to the Armenians according to whatever definition he chooses.  Agree to disagree with his understanding, present arguments against his understanding, and move the dialogue forward…or stop altogether.

    Even if he was the vilest of all genocide deniers, I don’t think it is productive or worthwhile to stall our discussion on this point.  It is still better to continue presenting facts to counter any statements with which we disagree, instead of attacking him or anyone else in a personal way, no matter how repugnant the denial is.   It weakens our position to argue in this manner.  

    The deniers are out there, they live among us.  Some deny because they don’t know better, some deny because they do know better and want to hide the truth, and some simply want to have their say on this controversial topic and must maintain access to people and places by couching their words.   We have to be prepared to expose falsehoods regardless of where they come from and do so with the strength of our facts, not just the strength of our outrage (however justified).
    This might get me in trouble, but I think I get Ragnar, though I may not like his position or agree with it.  He wants to discuss the ‘facts’ of what happened to the Armenians without being constrained by the word ‘genocide.’  He acknowledges that genocide happened against Armenians (according to ICTJ guidelines)and that these acts were widely carried out by ordinary Ottoman citizens, but he questions whether there is enough evidence to establish that the CUP leadership ‘intended’ genocide.  Yet he does not out and out deny that they might have.  He simply sees the question as still open and awaiting a conclusive answer, as any unemotional researcher would.  

    His overarching point seems to be that the word genocide and our emotional attachment to the word is limiting the discussion and the examination of the many facets of the genocide.  He acknowledges the atrocities, the tragedy, the brutality, the inhumanity, the utter destruction, and undeniable elimination of the Armenian presence on their Asia Minor homeland (my words, not his).  But he wants to be free to examine the events and what led to them without commitment to either side’s agenda, (though, in my opinion, he tends to uncritically accept some of the Turkish denial-oriented propaganda).  And he naively (?) attempts to do this among Armenian Weekly readers who are predominantly descendants of survivors and defenders of the Armenian Cause!  Perhaps he chooses this hostile audience to test run his pro-Turkish views on purpose, to see if they will fly? 
    Let the deniers expose their distortions, but let the facts prove the truth.  They may still accuse us of ‘venom’ toward Turks, but any level-headed reader will know that our anger is directed toward an unpunished crime and those who maliciously deny it and not toward Turks in general.
    I have some reading to do…
     
     

  818. Gayane,

    I’m still waiting for us to debate! Will you or will you not accept my challenge? If you do accept, then BRAVO, you truly are courageous. If, on the other hand, you refuse, then that says quite a bit! Either way, I’ll respect whichever decision you make.  

  819. Robert.. and for the millionth times, STOP HARASSING ME with this.. you got your answers and there is nothing else for YOU to address to me… not only you are a denialist but you are a chronic obsessor …. the debates of the world won’t change the fact that you will remain as a deniar…case closed…. so please get over it and move on……otherwise i will refer  you to all the replies you got from me over and over..

    Good day 

  820. Boyajian jan– i love you and respect you and no your post will not get you in trouble.. why would it? it is your own opinion and you should be able to freely express it.. if you get Ragnar then that is great… but i disagree with the fact that Ragnar get its.. 100% disagree… Ragnar may seem he supports Genocide but in reality he is not.. I DONT” CARE WHAT HE SAYS .. i am sorry…we have known him too long and too well…  if he is the person that you say he is, then he should have NEVER EVER accused or spread lies about me, Gor or Avery with such disrespect and malice (note.. he expressed such negativity from his own head and without any STRONG EVIDENCE).. I DON”T CARE IF he apologized after the fact.. too little too late….. As you have noticed Gor (especially Gor) and Avery have been very patient with him and counter replied with very strong facts and evidence.which I am thankful for.. don’t expect one sided argument or accusations… .I may be different from them in the sense that I don’t come off too patience with such individuals.. but then that is me.. ..I personally don’t any disintegration of this thread… every counter argument from Gor and Avery is very fact oriented and very much intelligence… i just can’t swallow the disrespect (UNCALLED FOR to say the least) thrown on our faces by these denialists ????

    However, i understand that we should have blocked these denialists long time ago and basically put a red tape on their comments as no one can change their blocked minds. however,  as Gor and Avery addressed in the past….every false statement will face even stronger and bigger counter statements and this should NEVER stop…i don’t care if one feels things get repeated over and over.. if it is .. then it is…

  821. Gor jan– excellent reference to Ragnar’s old post about Armenians dying vs murdered… lets see how he gets himself out of this one..

  822. Boyajian

    thank you for presenting my point of view. You get it more or less correctly. I only wish I could get Gayane to acknowledge my position, and not simply see it as another denialist subterfuge. I am here because I would never try to write anything without a through discussion with Armenians. For me this is a moral issue. Apart from this the AW has a functioning culture of discussion which is much more than the Daily Hürriyet or the Daily Zaman in which the space is very restricted. I am also here to discuss with Turks, but before Monastras arrived I was never able to have any menaingful discussion with Turks in the AW. – Again of course I ask myself if we should end this discussion, I mean between you Armenians and me. At least I feel discouraged because of so many obvious misunderstandings of my view.

  823. gor

    this has to do with several issues, one of them is what we call ANTITHETICAL INTERPRETATION. If I say “died” you infer that my opinion is “not murdered”, and you immediately protest. This is a common mistake in debates. But by saying “died” I have not excluded the possibility that many were murdered. Indeed many Armenians were murdered in this period. So please dont interpret me antithetically.

    About the number 600.000-800.000 I just see that several scholars repeat this number. I never saw any detailed treatment arguing that it was 1.5 million. Tell me if you have it. I only note that Erik Zurcher in his last book “The Young turk legacy and nation building. From the Ottoman Empire to Atatürk’s Turkey ” confirms this number: “As a result of war, epidemcs and starvation, some 2.5 million Anatolian Muslims, as well as up to 800.000 Armenians and 300.000 Greeks had lost their lives” (p.139). Now as we know Erik Zurcher believes that the ittihadists launched a program of extermination, as you and I have discussed earlier”. I also see him as a quite cautious and sober scholar who emphasizes the need for sound documentation. And, excuse me, the number he gives is more or less the same as McCArthy has been given since 1983, when “Muslims and minorities” appeared.

    But your way of discussion, if you excuse me for saying so, is very aberrant. If you met Zurcher in a conference you would probably say: “LOST THEIR LIVES? THEY WERE MURDERED!!” And if Gayane was there she would add before Zurcher had a chance to answer: Well, mr. Zurcher, what about that? How do you extricate yourself from this one?”. Your way of discussion in these pages is a liability for the Armenian cause. The understanding of concepts and scholarly reasoning that you have is very confused, or simply absent, in the case of Gayane, at least. I feel sorry for the Armenians if they have spokesmen like you, or rather if spokesmenn like you take the floor in order to talk to those who are not already converted. Stamina among the believers is not enough. You must find ways to convince others – This confusion may lead to a situation when Armenians simply throw in the towel and abandon their former standpoints. I feel that this is what has happened to Azanavour when he simply says that Armenians should find “another word”. This is very inept, if he is quoted correctly. But I will not even ask you,Gayane, if he is quoted correctly, because I have not seen you quote anything from any books. You simply cheer and repeat slogans and use abusive language. I like you, because after more than a year I feel I discern the person behind your obvious mistakes. But I really hope you will stop for a moment and try to think if you are using these pages in a constructive way.      

  824. Love you, too, Gayane jan.  Thanks for putting your disagreement with me so nicely.  

    I certainly understand your viewpoint.  I agree that lies and misinformation should be stopped in their tracks.  Maybe I give him too much of the benefit of the doubt.   I distinguish between malicious deniers (those who know the truth but work against it to protect Turkey) and doubters (those who question the facts sincerely).  After all this time I am still not sure which one Ragnar is.  That is where I am coming from.  I have always maintained that I don’t see his contribution as productive for us, and I would prefer not to have ‘help’ from such a misguided human rights activist/consultant/researcher/etc., But we have to accept that after all these years have passed without justice, realpolitiks being what they are, and the limits of human memory, there will always be Ragnars.   But how much energy do we expend on them is the question.  There is much work to be done.

  825. Boyajian, gor, gayane,
    I felt from the beginning that you have difficulties in relating to real disagreements which is also partial agreement. Maybe it is easier for you to relate to the Turks who come here and just reject the whole Armenian cause as malignant rubbish. It is more challenging to relate to people who agree in something and not in other. But this to my mind is the usual situation in life, at least if you relate to people outside your own circle, or bubble, as Karekin usually says. I feel there has been a definite development in the way you have related to to me and to Karekin, the two persons here who agree in some and disagree in some regarding the Armenian cause. However, I experience a strong current that will not accept this position, you try to re-interpret me into a previously established enemy picture. From this comes the surprise when you read my discussion with Monastras. I said so many of the things you also say. Gayane asked me to “take off the denialist mask!”. For me this is very similar to the experience I have with traditional Turks. When I agree with them in some matters they are very happy and expect me to believe in all. When they discover I do not believe in all, they either get very suspicious of me, believing I am suguarcoating an anti-Turkish message by professing agreement on some matters. Or they say that it is very difficult to understand me, I am not clear, I am ambiguous, I contradict myself and so on. For me these are signs of cultures that have a difficulty in relating to real disagreement, which is an important part of what democracy is all about . – Then comes the matter of trusting. In this discussion forum, we dont have our real names, we dont know each others, we are simply debating. So I am not asking about trust at all. I am listening to arguments, getting impressions, promoting views. Neither do I feel the need to trust nor to distrust anybody. If we really did some work together outside of dialogue, the question of trust would be very important for me. Bjut we dont. So I am surprised, Boyajian, that this has been a theme in your relation to me for such a long time. Wy is trust so important in an anonymous forum like the discussions in AW?

  826. ragnar naess,     it has to do with only one issue: your turkocentrism, one manifestation of which is what we call notional interpretation. Had you been less turkocentric, you could have used ‘were murdered’ which doesn’t exclude the possibility that many Armenians died in conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. If you used ‘were murdered’ instead of hypothetical ‘died’ you could have kept your ‘antithetical interpretation’ to yourself. Likewise, as a turkocentric person, have you ever made an attempt to find treatments arguing that the number of Armenian victims was 1.5 million or at least greater than 600,000-800,000? For figures exceeding 800,000 please see:
     
    Volkswirtschaftliche Studien in der Türkei Report, written on July 2, 1916 and submitted to the German Foreign Office on July 14, 1916, A.A. Türkei, 134/35, A18613
     
    Report submitted to the German Foreign Office on May 27, 1916, A.A. Türkei 183/42, A13959
     
    Endres, Carl Franz. Die Türkei. Munich, 1918
     
    Holocaust and Genocide Studies, Volume 11, Number 1, Spring 1997, Vahakn N. Dadrian. The Turkish Military Tribunal’s Prosecution of the Authors of the Armenian Genocide: Four Major Court-Martial Series
     
    Chaliand, Gérard. Le Crime de silence : le génocide des Arméniens: Tribunal permanent des peuples, [Session de Paris, 13-16 avril 1984] ; pref. de Pierre Vidal-Naquet, 1984
     
    Report, Austrian Foreign Ministry Archives 12 Türkei/380, ZI.17/pol and 12 Türkei/463, Z.94/P
     
    Pomiankowski, Joseph. Der Zusammenbruch des Ottomanischen Reiches, Graz, Austria, 1969 [first printed in 1928]
     
    Melson, Robert. Revolution and Genocide: On the Origins of the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust, 1992
     
    Howard, Harry N. The King-Crane Commission: An American Inquiry in the Middle East, 1963
     
    Marashlian, Levon, Politics and Demography: Armenians, Turks, and Kurds in the Ottoman Empire, 1991
     
    Schaefer, T (ed.). Encyclopedia of Race, Ethnicity, and Society, 2008
     
    Henham, Ralph J, Behrens, Paul. The Criminal Law of Genocide: International, Comparative and Contextual Aspects, 2007
     
    Totten, Samuel, Paul Robert Bartrop, Steven L. Jacobs (eds.). Dictionary of Genocide, 2008
     
    Noël, Lise. Intolerance: A General Survey, 1994
     
    McCarthy’s figures are cited mostly in those works that support Turkey’s official thesis that mass murders of the Armenians do not constitute genocide. Many scholars, such as Aviel Roshwald and Frédéric Paulin, criticize him for undercounting the pre-war Armenian population, overcounting the survivors, and consider his figures to be an Ottoman source rather than a Western one, because McCarthy’s numbers of Armenian victims are derived from Ottoman records by applying correction values. In Muslims and Minorities: The Population of Ottoman Anatolia and the End of the Empire, McCarthy calculated an estimate of the pre-war Armenian population, then subtracted his estimate of survivors, arriving at a figure of 600,000 for the period from 1914 to 1922. You may want to take a note that even your enfant cheri gives 1922 (Turkish burnings of the Armenians and Greeks in Smyrna) as the end date of mass murders, not 1916, as you do. As in the case of Armenian population, McCarthy’s statistics on the number of victims are controversial. In a 2001 essay The Population of the Ottoman Armenians, in The Armenians in the Late Ottoman Period, he contradicted himself by acknowledging that if the Armenian records of 1913 were accurate, 250,000 more deaths should be added, for a total of 850,000. Scholarly consensus has largely followed the conclusions made by Levon Marashlian’s study arriving at a figure of more than 1.2 million. Marashlian claimed that McCarthy’s results are based on inaccurate records disregarding the fact that there was an undercounting on the Ottoman’s government’s part on the one hand, and underreporting by Armenians, on the other.
     
    re:  “Your way of discussion in these pages is a liability for the Armenian cause. The understanding of concepts and scholarly reasoning that you have is very confused.”  For you, perhaps. My way of discussion in these pages is presentation of concepts and scholarly reasoning for the Armenian cause that differ from those of the denialists’ based on alternative sources that constitute scholarly consensus. I understand that such concepts and scholarly reasoning do not sit well with those who call the deliberate extermination of a race a ‘crime’ despite the term specifically coined for it or who juxtapose the emptying of the Armenian homeland in a deliberate centrally-planned act of physical destruction of inhabitants with wartime atrocities against a civilian segment of a party at war or who maintain that a smaller number of Armenians just collectively agreed to die in only two, not actually eight, consecutive years. If, God forbid, I put myself in your place, I’d understand why such concepts and scholarly reasoning for the Armenian cause would be labeled ‘very confused’.

  827. Likewise, Boyajian,     I disagree with the premise of your “Friends, I agree[…]” post. I think you quit somewhat hastily and somewhat easily.  Sorry.

  828. Avery, would you care to say more about that…  I’m interested to hear your thoughts.

    Ragnar, I don’t see it as mistrust toward you personally. I don’t know you, can’t know you from this website.  I only know this entity that submits comments on a website…   Oh, and appears at a symposium with a known genocide revisionist (McCarthy)…
    I don’t mean to offend you, I just can’t claim to know your motives based on such a limited exposure.  There are some despicable characters out there who would love to complete the genocide, and are not above lying, bribing, distorting and even murder to accomplish their goals.  I don’t think this is you, but some of your expressed views seem intent on spreading doubt in areas where certainty once stood.  What should I make of this?  To me, this undermines the march toward justice and serves the interests of the Turks, while obstructing justice for Armenians.  I don’t take this lightly.

    You say you agree there was genocide.  You agree that CUP central echelon were culpable for the deaths of their Ottoman Armenian citizens even if they didn’t intend the extent of the destruction that occurred.  To me this is a bottomline.  It is enough to indict Turkey, as the heirs to the Ottoman empire, for this crime.  Why should justice not be served?  Why would you align yourself with anything that delays justice for even one day?  This makes me question you.  Maybe it is a fault on my part and maybe it comes from deep-seated, subconscious resentment against Turks, but I dislike that you find the need to defend Turkey, the nation guilty of genocide, from the accusations from the victims.   What is there to defend?  What is in dispute?  Shouldn’t Turkey admit that this is their history, that it was an integral event involved in the eventual formation of modern Turkey and acknowledge that an apology and reparations are due to the Armenians?  Shouldn’t the nations of the world hold Turkey accountable for this?

    Your comment in your post addressed to Gor, Gayane and me, suggesting that we have difficulty relating to someone who partially agrees and partially disagrees with our views, has some merit with respect to me.  (I won’t speak for Gayane or Gor). But it is not because I can’t accept that you view some things differently.  It is because I can’t understand why someone with your background and credentials would choose to do anything that helps Turkey hide behind her distortions and revisions of history.  To me it is a cruel game to carry-out ‘fact finding missions,’ thus stimulating doubts, about a known tragic historical crime that awaits justice.  
     

  829. Ragnar- did we not say that McCarthy and Lowe or whoever denialist and bought up authors have NO ROOM on these pages.. STOP referring to them when you speak of the Genocide… you are discrediting yourself as a sound and intelligent jr historian…yeah…

    I believe Gor has the upper hand when it comes to providing accurate data and facts Ragnar.. you yourself can’t get out of the situation you put yourself in..do you realize that you can’t justify what you said and try harder and harder to explain yourself but everytime you explain, it gets worst and worst… just admit you re not fit to discuss such matter because you do not have the expertise or the tools to come up with strong arguments like Gor.. the next best thing is to acknowledge it, dissapear for a while (like last time but this time please please please do more in depth research AWAY from all those bought up authors by the Turkish govt), and thn come back and have a decent discussion.. but then again i doubt that will ever happen.. you had plenty of time to do that before coming to us the second time around.. but as they say third time is a charm……

    thank you and have a nice day..

    Gayane    

  830. “Erik Zurcher believes that the Ittihadists launched a program of extermination, as you and I have discussed earlier.”      I don’t remember we ever discussed this.   If I met Zurcher at a conference where he’d say Armenians ‘lost their lives” and not just ‘died’, I’d take it.

    Oxford English Dictionary:

    ‘lose one’s life’: be killed
    ‘die’: (of a person, animal, or plant) stop living

  831. Well Ragnar the jr historian who has the EXPERTISE in “understanding of concepts and scholarly reasoning”(your own words and i am sure you believe you have these traits otherwise you would not bluntly disrespect Gor and myself by calling us stupid because according TO YOU, we lack these traits..)   At least I am young and don’t extensive experience like Gor, and Avery (as they are both brilliant) but I know what make sense and what does not..you sir do not make sese .. now you are in your 70s and call yourself a Jr. Historian and a writer, so what is your excuse???  By the way, you  announced that  Avery was also a threat to the Armenian cause in one of your comments on this thread… are you done trying to drone up the troops against us by stating we are good for nothing to our cause to make you feel better?   now that is just low.. i would not have expected a jr historian to say such things Ragnar.. Not cool….

    Avery and Gor jan… hope you don’t lose sleep over Ragnar’s harsh words against you.. I know I wont… but it still not cool….

    Gayane   

  832. Ragnar, I think your use of the term aberrant when describing Gor is offensive.  You hurt your argument.  Simply clarify, clarify, clarify… Don’t you not know by now that this is no mere intellectual debate for Armenians?  There are life and death components involved when one’s very identity and history are denied, and emotions run high.  If you are misunderstood, clarify.  But by all means, please try to understand your audience here.
    This is not academia.

    As far as Zurcher and the numbers go; you must realize that these numbers have long been discussed and disputed and may never be known exactly, but that it is most commonly believed to be 1-1.5 million Armenians died in the genocide.  Ottoman census numbers didn’t always match Armenian Church numbers.  Also Ottomans may have had reasons to underreport the number of Armenians.   Where did Zurcher get his numbers?   
    Also it is accepted that 2-2.5 million Armenians were in Ottoman Turkey in 1914. (This does not include Islamized Armenians).  Virtually none were left by the end of the war.   And if you take into account the earlier Hamidian and Adana Massacres you will begin to understand the problem with numbers when there was a genocidal pattern in action long before the 1915 accepted start of the Armenian Genocide.  How many fled before 1915? How many Islamized?  How many kidnapped or murdered?

    But more importantly, while numbers are important to illustrate the magnitude of an event, they are only numbers.  It is the sheer devastation and elimination of Armenians from their homeland that is more salient and definitive when discussing the effects of the Ottoman Turkish genocide of the Armenians.
    Careful not to create a smokescreen with a dispute over numbers.  The end results speak for themselves that a massive crime took place and must be punished.

  833. That is right Boyajian jan… The end result WAS AND WILL ALWAYS BE GENOCIDE and it took place by the hands of the Ottomans…

    and I personally don’t trust Ragnar..i don’t trust his motives…just don’t…

    Gor jan– apres…   thank you for providing Ragnar the difference between “die” and “murdered”… maybe Ragnar made a mistake by the word “die” .. who knows? but then again i doubt it.. because if my great grandfather was alive today, he would have given his very serious and very angry look (he was not a violent person but everyone who knew him knew he meant business and just by looing at them, they knew they need to shut up) because his family did not die in a peaceful manner but he witnessed his family MURDERED… 

  834. ‘Avery, would you care to say more about that…  I’m interested to hear your thoughts.’

    I gladly will Boyajian, only if you want to: it will be long and harsh: you may not like it. 
    (But we will remain friends) 

  835. Monastras

    the three points I’d like you to comment on are the fact that perpetrators of massacres of Armenians were not punished to any significant degree, and that  even Talat Pasha himself acknowledged this. He even said that they did not punish perpetrators for political reasons

    The second is that the money allotted to the  welfare of the Armenian deportees is a small fraction per person compared to  the money alotted to the Muslim muhacir coming from the Balkans. This is inadvertently confirmed by Halacoglu in his article “The realities behind the relocation” and is taken up by Gerlach in his book “Extremely violent societies”.

    The third is that the area in which Armenians were supposed to be resettled   anyhow could not support them.

    I can provide documentation for these points if you need it.  

    What do these three points say about intentions in the CUP regarding the Armenians?           

  836. boyajian

    I agree that the numbers ultimately is a minor thing. But on the other side to answer factual information with reference to what the audience experiences emotionally is questionable.

    Monastras

    The three points I wanted you to comment on are 1) the fact that people massacring Armenian deportees were very seldom punished, even that Talat Pasha says that they did not punish them for political reasons

    the second is that the money used for the welfare of the Armenian deportees is only a fraction per person of the money used for resettlement of the Muslim muhacir from the Balkans

    The third is that the area supposed to be used for the resettlement of the Armenians could never support this population

    What does this say about the mindset and the intent of the CUP?      
              

  837. ragnar naess,   your comment in a post addressed to me, Gayane, and Boyajian, suggesting that we have difficulty relating to someone who partially agrees and partially disagrees with our views, has some merit with respect to me, too, because I can’t accept that someone with your polymathic knowledge would choose to use evasive terms (‘crime’ vs. ‘genocide’, ‘die’ vs. ‘were killed’), uncorroborated numbers (600,000-800,000 vs. up to 1.5 mln or more), erroneous dates (1915-1916 vs. 1915-1923), as well as make absurd historical analogies (genocidal annihilation of autochthonous inhabitants of the Armenian landmass vs. wartime atrocities against a civilian component of a party at war) and cite scholars most of whom are known to be on the Turkish side of the debate (McCarthy & Co.).
     
    To me, these are the symptoms of turkocentrism and denialism.
     
    A truly impartial person wouldn’t use the verb ‘die’ when describing the mass killings of the Armenians. He would at the very least use the phrase ‘lost their lives’ if using ‘were murdered’ is considered a juridical term, like ‘genocide’.
     
    A truly impartial person wouldn’t state that mass murders of the Armenians took place in 1915-1916 period knowing that pockets of Armenians were methodically exterminated throughout Eastern Anatolia in the consecutive years up until the creation of Christians-free Republic of Turkey in 1923. Best proof: mass burnings of Armenians in Smyrna in 1922.
     
    A truly impartial person would at the very least mention that some sources, mostly Turkish, put the number of Armenian victims at 300,000-600,000, while others, mostly German and Austrian diplomatic dispatches and other Western sources, estimate them at or up to 1.5 million.
     
    I disagree with Boyajian that you said you agree there was genocide. Like I’ve shown, the term ‘genocide’ was used in the context of ICTJ’s—not your—formulation. I also haven’t seen that you agree that CUP central echelon were culpable for the deaths of Ottoman Armenians even if they didn’t intend the extent of the destruction that occurred. Even if you agree that CUP central echelon were culpable, but disagree there was a genocidal intent, it’d still lie outside the confines of scholarly and legal consensus, which holds that “at least some of the perpetrators knew that the consequence of their actions would be the destruction of the Armenians of Eastern Anatolia or acted purposively towards this goal, and, therefore, possessed the requisite genocidal intent.” (The Applicability of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide to Events which Occurred During the Early Twentieth Century, ICTJ-February 10, 2003)

  838. Gor, beautiful response providing all the references supporting the 1-1.5 million figure. Thank you.

    And I didn’t quit.  I needed a break and to regroup.

    Avery, “long and harsh” scares me.  

     

  839. gor

    thank you for your impressive list of authors. I will look into it. Possibly I am wrong. I was simply impressed by Zurcher – who  very clearly supports the thesis that the ittihadists launched an extermination program  and cannot be suspected of pro-turkish attitudes – who both upholds this number (up to 800.000) and also praises McCarthy for his demographical work. 

     

  840. I fully stand with Gor, Avery (ari arants deghamartig) and Gayane jans. 

    I am appaled at the denialist or near denialist ragnar naess who has ridiculously asked Gor to apologize.  While ragnar after 96 years is still wondering whether the CUP’s near annihilation of an entire race of the Armenians is premeditated or not and while he tried to put parrallels the Armenian Genocide with the Balkanian Turks’ killings who were at war.  I admired Gor’s undying patience to go over and over with him bringing facts after facts that the Balkanian wars were totally different than in the case of the Armenian Genocide, and only after so many posts, ragnar asks Gor for an apology???  The absurdity of his proposal is so ridiculous it is more than propesterous.  Frankly I will ask who has to apologize who???

  841. Dear Gor, I’d like you to be aware if you do not know it yet that during the Armenian Genocide when he saw the total destruction of the Armenian race, the hellish Talaat Pasha said, “now that the Armenians (meaning the ARF heads and the Henchagyan heads) are so angry that we have to finish our job and do a more thorough annihilation to the Armenians”.

    Yes Gor jan, It was INDEED A PREMEDITATED GENOCIDE BY THE HANDS OF THE CUP ITTIHADIST GOVERNMENT OF TURKEY!!!!!

  842. Ragnar, I look forward to Monastras’ answers to your questions and appreciate your raising of them.  

    Can you expand on this?:

    “But on the other side to answer factual information with reference to what the audience experiences emotionally is questionable.” 

    Gor, it was in a post in another thread, long ago, that Ragnar alluded to the idea that the intent among upper echelons of CUP was not proven to his satisfaction, but he agreed that they were nonetheless culpable as a government for the genocide of the Armenian nation.  I am sorry that I can’t provide the citation.

    Avery, long and harsh is not my style; I would never have survived the death marches.
    Can you make it short and sweet?

     

  843. and Ragnar will always stick to his guns.. there is no turning for him.. he believes and will continue to stick to the fact that upper echelon of CUP was not involved; hence not enough evidence to prove or as he said it..was not proven to his satisfaction… but i say.. WHO CARES what Ragnar thinks…. or does not think… the facts are clear and right there.. now if he wants to probe and pick on it as long as he shall live, so be it.. but don’t let him come in here and run the show like he knows anything… really annoying….

    Ragnar why you keep asking Monastras to answer.. have you noticed that all these denialists do is say something Anti-Armenian and leave.. they have nothing constructive to say… i would be surprised if Monastras comes back with decent responses.. we shall wait and see…

    Gayane   

  844. gor

    I have apologized for remarks of mine that I understood were hurtful. Now you wrote on september 22 the following, in two different posts:

    September
    22 “I sometimes say ‘the deportations and massacres of Armenians’, sometimes
    “the relocation and massacres of Armenians’, sometimes ‘the Armenian
    genocide’.”
    Simply
    not true. You’ve never said ‘the Armenian genocide’. Prove me wrong by
    referring me to any of your posts in this thread.
    ragnar
    naess, I don’t want you to use the word ‘genocide’ repeatedly as a kind of
    marker of allegiance. You said you sometimes used “the Armenian genocide”. I
    say you’re lying. Not once have you used it. Prove me wrong, if you can.
    unquote

    Then I showed you a post of september 15 in which I use it. Then you refuse to apologize in spite of your obvious mistake and slanderous accusation.

    I use terms like this with qualificaitions, as I said. Then you say that this has been defined, no use for more qualifications. But there is a need to make qualifications to my mind – for several reasons, and every time when one uses value loaded expressions. By the way there is a good deal of literature in which different definitions iof genocide is used. Hans-Lukas Kieser, a Swiss genocide researcher, distinguished between  the “intentionalist” and the “non-intentionalist” meaning”. The point is that even if intention is difficult to pinpoint, the effects of actions may be genocidal. Charny has made a very broad definition. there has also been debates on what the words in the Convention definition may mean. How are they to be interpreted? Most clearly this was regarding whether the Tutsis were a “protected group” according to the Convention definition. It is not clear that they are a”religious,ethnic, national, or racial group”. But the court said it is reasonable to say that they are. There are more examples. Simply to insist on the application of the word “genocide” is not enough. 

    But in the discussion with you, I propose that you reconsider your accusation that I was lying. Honestly, gor, this does not make sense. There is no shame in retracting a statement and making an apology.       
      

  845. Genocidal intent in upper echelons of the CUP: I commented
    on this in  the davutoglu debate, in 2010, with Anahit and Boyajian and others. We had a long discussion on this. On june 23,2010 I wrote:
    But
    Boyajian, my whole point is that genocidal intent among the top echelons of the
    ittihadists is difficult to prove. Maybe this is not important to you, but for
    many researchers, Armenian or not, it is very important to hold that it is
    quite clear that the ittihadists had genocidal intent. And I said
    earlier that Armenians have a just claim for restitution from Turkey.
    One june
    30, 2010, again in discussing with Boyajian, I wrote:
    It was
    committed by SOME Turks, and the role of the central echelons of CUP is
    according to a significant number of scholars not clear. To clamor that so many
    researchers and so many parliament think otherwise is not enough for me.

    I dont know how we can get this discussion further. But let me try again: I
    would like to go on investigating the question of genocidal intent in CUP
    because a) I see that many disagree, 2) because those who hold the position
    have failed to argue convincingly for it, 3) because many proofs, for instance
    the three works mentioned by Msheci are hightly dubious.

    On the other hand there is no doubt that the CONSEQUENCES were genocidal and
    that the CUP bears a heavy responsibility.
    unquote
    There are
    many more examples when I again and again clarify my point on intent in the
    upper echelons of the CUP. I hope this suffices.

  846. Ragnar
     
    You wrote 
     there are on the contrary a number of references about deportations from places like
    Eskisehir and Kütahya, places that at all times during the war were far from
    any fighting and where the Armenian population had no record of armed struggle
    against the government. 
    1-If we believe that the local authorities also played an important role during the deportation, Why it is impossible for some local Authorities to deport the Armenian population from those areas? Do you think that the local army commanders did exactly what CUP instructed no more or more less? Can’t some of the local officials ignore or interpret the instructions from the Government in the way they like?
    I am sure more research should be done.But everything that the Armenians touch smells foul.The same can be said for the nationalist Turkish historians as well as ex-Marksist or extreme leftist people like Halil Berktay or Taner Akcam who only want to shoot turkey nothing else.
    2-You also said the Armenians doesn’t have to take their case to the ICJ. I am asking you why not? If the outcome will be in their favor. They will put an end to the denialism of Turkey. What prevent them to stay away from the ICJ? Doesn’t this show that I am not the only one who finds their story dubious?
    As far as I remember you answered the first question but not the second one. I think you must read the memoirs of Talat pashas published by Murat Bardakci, if you are fluent in Turkish. Not the ones some people copied and changed the way they like. Having said that, I haven’t read the book but I believe it contains important information regarding the WW1 era and the Armenian deportation.
    You wrote
    the money used for the welfare of the Armenian deportees is only a fraction per person of the money used for resettlement of the Muslim muhacir from the Balkans.
    I am afraid we cannot credit this man who actually is a petroleum engineer and connected to the Michigan University. Unfortunately, some people want to become a celebrity of the Armenian genocide in Turkey. I can make many negative comments about this guy but people can find these criticisms easily without my comments. You said his work is accepted as somewhat accurate by Yusuf Halacoglu. Did Yusuf Halacoglu change his view regarding the Armenian Genocide? If he didn’t change, what is the reason that he didn’t change his position? I even do not believe that CUP had a proper budget and money to spend while they were dealing with half a millions of enemy soldiers only in one front. I think we are judging something with today’s logic that happened a century ago. We think that CUP leaders sat down on their chairs and decided that Immigrant Turks should have 10 dollars but the Armenians should have only 1 dollar. Why can’t you think that they might have spent the money for the Turkish immigrants from Balkan and for war effort and spent the remaining money for the Armenians? As far as we know, the immigrants came first from Balkan then the Armenians were deported.(Gayane, Don’t jump on my words saying the Armenians were deported because the immigrant Turks needed shelter.I know it will be beyond your comprehension but they actually came to the western Turkey not to the beautiful Armenian Highland.) Turks were sleeping on streets, in their ox-carts in search of a shelter to sleep. Even Istanbul streets and squares were full of refugees’ ox-carts. Moreover, imagine for a minute that everything is dead accurate about what Fuat Dundar says without thinking the background of the events. We still cannot use selective evidences to support what we are thinking. If you do, it will hit you sooner or later.
    You wrote
     the fact that people massacring Armenian deportees were very seldom punished, even that Talat Pasha says that they did not punish them for political reasons
    Punishing the people who actually massacred the Armenians and punishing the decision makers are totally different things. We are talking about the second one here and they were executed without trial in the hands of nationalist Armenians. We all know that some 1600 people were prosecuted and quite a few of them were hanged or jailed. The British also held 141 people in Malta for alleged offences for massacres
    In releations to prisoner exchange Article 2 under the Agreement For the Immediate Release of Prisoners reads:
    “The repatriation of Turkish prisoners of war and interned civilians now in the hands of the British authorities shall commence at once, and shall continue as quickly as possible. This will not apply, however, to persons whom it is intended to try for alleged offences in violation of the laws and customs of war, or for massacres committed during the continuance of the state of war in territory which formed part of the Turkish Empire on 1st August, 1914.
     
    What does the agreement clearly says? It excludes the persons who allegedly involved the massacres and war atrocities. Eventually, the British had to let all people go. What does that means?
     
    I think Talat pasha talked about the Kurdish Lords, when he mentioned that they didn’t (or couldn’t) punish them for political reason. He probably talked about the truth. Not because they didn’t want to punish but they couldn’t because, the Ottoman government wasn’t in a position to extend its power to Eastern Anatolia. Armenian and Kurdish bandits dominated the area. I think this is one of the reasons that so many Armenians lost their lives in the hands of Kurds whereas when you go toward the west, the massacres almost didn’t exist. The Kurdish lords are still active hundred years later and the local officers still have to get on with these people however, the central Government doesn’t care much about the Kurdish Lords.
    You wrote
    he third is that the area supposed to be used for the resettlement of the Armenians could never support this population
     
    You are right here, the resettlement could never support the Armenian population but you need to remember constantly that the Russian Army was approaching from the east with the help of the Armenians and half a millions of Allied soldiers were trying to crack down the Turkish Army in Dardanelles. They were in a great panic and understandably weren’t in a position to think about Armenians every day. They wanted to put an end to the Armenian resistance,assistance but didn’t think about it too much what might be the consequences of the deportation. Does that show the genocidal intention of CUP? I do not think so

  847. “Thank you for your impressive list of authors. I will look into it. Possibly I am wrong. I was simply impressed by Zurcher – who very clearly supports the thesis that the Ittihadists launched an extermination program and cannot be suspected of pro-Turkish attitudes – who both upholds this number (up to 800.000) and also praises McCarthy for his demographical work.”
     
    ragnar naess,    always a pleasure to disprove the denialists’ figures and facts or at least challenge them using an alternative body of evidence.  In addition to the number of Armenian victims that you’ve borrowed from Zurcher, was the verb ‘died’ as well as dates ‘1915-16’ also borrowed from one author who cannot be suspected of pro-Turkish attitudes and praises McCarthy for his demographical work? Also, do Norwegian academic research requirements permit a person to use numbers based on a borrowing from just one author in a field? In other words, is it considered a scholarly or a charlatan approach in Norwegian academic circles to come up with a number of victims based on how one was ‘simply impressed’ by one single author? Or this is your newest contribution to the international academic research methodology? I always thought, based on my academic training, that responsible, genuinely impartial, scholars are required to look into many primary sources or accounts of many authors to make a statement, aren’t they?

  848. So Monastras, you defend the CUP decision that because there were some Armenians who assisted Russia or otherwise fought to protect Armenian interests, that all Armenian Ottoman citizens, whether young children, pregnant mothers and elderly, or living far from the war fronts, deserved to be treated as criminals, deemed guilty without trial by virtue of ethnicity, and deported to the desert without provisions to sustain life.  That is a weak defense and does more to bolster the Armenian claims of planned genocide than it supports Turkey’s excuses.  Very sad.  The Armenians were citizens not unwanted garbage.  ‘Panic’ may seem like a fair justification to you for these inhuman acts, but to me it simply explains the backdrop, not an excuse for your nation’s crime.  

    You know that genocide happened.  It must be acknowledged and paid for.  It really is as simple as that.  Turkey just doesn’t want to play fair.   Dirty, dirty, dirty.

  849. The bottom line is that the CUP ‘solution’ to what they saw as the Armenian ‘problem’, using ethnic cleansing and outright murder, was crude, clumsy and medieval at best.  When a group of people do not obey, despotic governments (and yes, even democratic ones), often go beserk in their need for total control. Death and destruction usually follow.  No matter how one spins it, the outright murder of hundreds of thousands of Armenian men and boys at the outset of the genocide, clearly showed intent, as did the deportation of the remaining women, children and elderly into the lifeless deserts of Syria. 

    If the CUP had actually wanted to preserve and protect the Armenian population, most of whom were innocent of anything and guilty of nothing, other than living on their own ancestral lands, and by the way…feeding, clothing and conducting commerce for the entire empire – there were plenty of other ways to do it. But, the angry arm of the CUP was not interested in the Armenians – it was only interested in what they had and schemed to take it all away from them.

    The (false) argument about Russia is also hollow, since Armenians lived on both sides of the border, and fought on behalf of their respective rulers.   To argue about this is ridiculous, as the CUP’s actions speak louder than words, which at the time, were often full of diplomatic lies and clever deceptions to deflect those who questioned what was happening in the Armenian vilayets.  If we’re being honest here, anyone who supports the Palestinian cause in 2011, or for that matter, any minority cause in the world, they must also understand and support the Armenian position pre-1915.  If not, then it’s clear that they support state sponsored terror, murder and ethnic cleansing, and that’s really all we need to know, isn’t it?      

     

  850. no, ragnar naess,     I was simply responding to your posts one at a time. Here’s another one. If I felt I was wrong in accusing you of being untruthful, I’d apologize. I believe, however, that you failed to prove that you’ve said unambiguously, as a revelation of your own conviction, criteria, and assessment, that the Turkish crime against Armenians constituted genocide. The excerpt from your September 15 post shows only that the term was used being understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ, not as your own conviction. Your own conviction, as you admit it, is that you use terms like this with ‘qualifications’ (read: with reservations), even if you know that the Convention was adopted using the term coined as a result of study of the Armenian—not Rwandan—case.
     
    May I also remind that my accusation was done at the time when we discussed the need of calling crimes by their name. If you apply ‘qualifications’, or reservations rather, to genocide, how can you say you actually ‘use’ it in a true sense of the word? Applying reservations implies that one rather avoids using it in this sense. This is what your September 15 post demonstrates: that the term was used as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ, not as you personally would use it.
     
    I made you a fair offer and I won’t respond any more to this subject.  Make your statement a first-person narrative by taking out ‘understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ’ and replacing it by ‘as I understand and formulate it’.  Unless you do this, I’ll hold that my accusation is accurate.

  851. My enquiry to Monastras is a bit off the topic and pertains to my having difficulty to understand the peculiarities, so to speak, of the Turkish national mentality.  Monastras,     let’s put aside for a second that national liberation ideas of a few Armenian revolutionaries, just like those of Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, Cypriots, Montenegrins, Albanians, and even your fellow Muslim Arabs, were the result of Seljuk invasions into Asia Minor and the Balkans and consequent colonization of these indigenous peoples by the Ottomans. Let’s consider a few unarmed Armenian revolutionaries and their freedom aspirations represented a grave danger for the Ottoman empire.  Suppose a person in Constantinople committed a crime (whatever his motives were, even most honest and noble), was charged with it (which was never done with respect of Armenians), was brought to trial (which was never done with respect of Armenians), and convicted to death (which was done with respect of Armenians en masse and in the most savage forms).  Does this mean, based on Turkish mentality, that all of his next-of-kins and siblings: his father and mother, his grandfather and grandmother, his brothers and sisters, his uncles and aunts, his cousins, all of his distant relatives, and even unborns (who in Armenian case were slit off their mothers’ wombs) living in Bursa, Ankara, Izmir, Antalya, Konya, Samsun, Trabzon and elsewhere must face death as well?

  852. Very well put, Karekin.

    Ragnar, can you simply state that the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire suffered a genocide?  

    Qualifications aside, it is a straightforward question, that can be easily answered by looking at the end result of Ittihadist policies toward the Armenian population of the empire.

  853. Monastras

    If somebody is a petroleum engineer or not is not the case. For me to dwell on this is
    waste of time.

    I will first take the issue of money used for resettlement of both Armenians and the
    Muslim muhajirs. Both this money and the money used for Armenian deportees were channeled through an organization whose name in English literature was IAMM. No, Halacoglu has not agreed to the existence of genocide, but he – apparently inadvertently – used figures which illustrated the
    points made by Christian Gerlach, professor of Contemporary History at the
    University of Bern, in his book “Extremely violent societies”  (p.100).

    Halacoglu writes about the sums used to care for Armenian
    deportees in his article “The realities behind the relocation” in
    Ataöv (ed):”The Armenians in the late Ottoman Period” (Turkish
    Historical society, Ankara 2001). He tells us (p.125) that the budget of IAMM
    for 1915 was 78 million kuruş and for 1916 200 million kuruş. He writes that
    the sums allotted to Armenians in 1915 was 2.2 million. The references he provides are
    a number of telegrams. You will find them in the book or I can give the
    references here. Now there was almost a million Armenian deportees and many of
    them spent months on the road. But the sums imply  that they received the average of a little
    more than 2.2 kurus per person. the mucahirs appear to have recieved 22.75 million or some 22-23 kurus per person. That is for 1915, if we assume that all the 2.25 mill for Armenians were used this year.
    Gerlach uses the same source (The BOA or Office of the Prime Minister) as Halacoglu and also cites Halacoglu. He gives lower sums than Halacoglu (25 million in 1915 and 100 million in 1916) so he
    evidently uses other documents. But for the full period 1915-16 he holds that the muslim muhacir on the average received 70 times more than the average Armenian. there are some elements missing in Gerlach’s reasoning, as he says that he presupposes that there one million Armenians were relocated during 1915, but does not provide any number for the Muslim muhacirs. But if we assume that one million refugees from the Balkan war 1912-13 were not resettled in the course of 1915 – a too high figure, I believe – and 1.2 million Kurdish refugees in 1916 following the
    Russian occupation of a large part of Eastern Anatolia, then the proportion of the money used for
    Muslims must have been much higher. To take only 1915, there were 2.25 million for one million Armenians and 76,75 million for one million muslims, that is using the numbers of   Halacoglu, that is 33  times as much! We then assume that all the 2.25 million were used in 1915, something which is not clear from Halacoglu’s text. If we use Gerlach’s number and assume the same number of people the mujahirs possibly received only 9 times as much in 1915 ( out of 25 millions armenians received 2.25 (provided all was handed out in 1915). For 1916, provided that the same sum was given to 500.000 surviving Armenians, they received on the average 4,5 kurus, whereas if we assunme that 500.000 mujahirs had survived they received  97.75 million
    or 195 kurus per person. That is mujahirs received 45 times more than Armenians! The numbers may be different to some degree but  the difference seems rather bigger than smaller to the disadvantage of the Armenians. –  What does this tell about the official priorities
    regarding the welfare of Armenians? – Gerlach remarks that “with these numbers Halacoglu meant to demonstrate the generosity of the Ottoman authoritiers”. Take a look at the numbers and
    judge for yourself!

  854. “Ragnar, can you simply state that the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire suffered a genocide?” 
    Hardly, Boyajian.  He’s likely to say that it is ‘understood as formulated in the criteria of the ICTJ’ and will add his ‘qualifications’…

  855. gor

    I’ll provide more citations. I have used the expression Armenian Genocide many times. Here is another one (august 16):
    My
    friend Gayane, I feel sad if some Armenians cannot say more to the cruel ethnic
    cleansing of Turks than “these things happen”. It plays right into
    the hands of the nationalist Turks who will love to depict the Armenians as
    people who do not care about humanism but only about themselves. These Turks
    are also shrugging their shoulders at the Armenian genocide and saying “these
    things happen”. It is sad when peoples who experienced so much awful suffering
    belittle the sufferings of each others
     

  856. one of my posts of august 25:
    quote:Other general recent histories could be mentioned. But older European histories have
    often a general anti-turkish bias which is corrected today. This is not to deny
    that Armenians had problems. But we are then talking about the whole Ottoman
    period, arent we? Of course the end of the Armenian existence in Anatolia, the
    Armenian genocide, is quite something else. As I have repeated and repeated
    here, the Armenians have a just cause, but it is mistaken, although
    understandable, to see the whole Ottoman Armenian history through the lens of
    the events of 1915-16 and the expusion from and fleeing of Armenians from
    Anatolia? Unquote.

  857. ragnar naess,   I now see that out of the three excerpts only in the August 25 post did you use ‘the Armenian genocide’ independently as a first-person narrative. I admit this one instance might have slipped my attention and apologize for my charge that you were lying.  I’d still wish to see that you believe the genocidal end of the Armenian existence was the result of the original intent of the higher echelons of CUP.

  858. ‘Avery, long and harsh is not my style; I would never have survived the death marches.
    Can you make it short and sweet?’

    I’ll see if I can extract enough for it to be short, but still convey my message accurately Boyajian. Otherwise, some other time, some other thread. 

  859. ragnar naess,     since we now established that you did use the word ‘genocide’ once in the linguistic sense, but, as I understand from Boyajian, you nonetheless have reservations in the semantic sense, let’s move, if you will, to other discrepancies.
     
    We discussed the fate of Bulgarian Turks at length and neither of us is convinced by the arguments and counterarguments of the other. Be it as it may, it’ll always be beyond my comprehension as to how the war atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks inflicted on them by non-Armenians could relate after 38 years (from 1877 to 1915) to the genocidal annihilation of the Armenians.
     
    We also discussed the number of the Armenian victims and you promised to look into sources other than McCarthy, in particular primary sources in German and Austrian archives from which the figure 1.5 million is derived.
     
    We also started debating the use of the verb ‘died’ instead of the closest depiction: ‘were murdered’. You said ‘died’ didn’t exclude the possibility that many Armenians were murdered, to which I replied that with the same token ‘were murdered’ wouldn’t exclude the possibility that many Armenians actually died, as they did during the death marches, in concentration camps, in the desert with no food and water, of starvation, i.e. in conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction. You then asked what if I met Zurcher at a conference where he’d say Armenians ‘lost their lives” and not just ‘died’, to which I replied that I’d take it, because ‘lose one’s life’ means ‘be killed’, whereas ‘died’ means stopped living. Any other reasons as to why you you think it is correct to use such a hypothetical word in connection to the genocide of Armenians?
     
    Then there’s one item remaining, that being the dates. You keep mentioning 1915-16 as the dates for the genocide. What data do you base your argument on? Armenian Genocide is best understood not as having begun in 1915, but rather as an ongoing genocide from 1896 through 1909, through World War I and right up to the creation of Christians-free Republic of Turkey in 1923.

  860. Ragnar– no matter how weak evidences you produce…. i still don’t believe in you.. you have not convinced me. that you use the expression ARmenian Genocide because you believe in it.. SORRY.. you still remain as someone who is lying… lying about your intentions and your wishy washy status on these pages.. OUT OF THE ENTIRE almost two years that we have known you… YOU and I had the same exchange. I know you DO NOT BELIEVE in the ARmenian Genocide and you saying i kind of do BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT…. NO Ragnar.. there is NO BUT… IT IS.. period…. I don’t care if you used the expression Armenian Genocide one or two times in this ENTIRE time….I just don’t see it, don’t believe it and see you as someone really not on the side of the justice…sorry….

    I still would like to hear your reply to Boyajian’s question..where she asked you to simply call it as it is… Armenians suffered  Genocide in great proportion by the hands of the Ottomans… go ahead.. …  

    You said you apologized for the wrong things you said .. but if I remember correctly you only apologized to Gor… actually it was Avery who first brought up the issue of you calling us “inbreds” and for the word “disposed” but he did not get an apology from you.. did he?? hmmm don’t think so…

    MOnastras Xhanum.. WHY AM I NOT SURPRISED.. i was actually waiting for such BS from you.. absolutely.. same old excuses.. same old song.. are you people tired of the lies??? do you use your heads to rationalize a world known fact??? why do you keep referring to “panic”  “group of nationalist Armenians” “Russia” and BS like that?? i mean seriously, have you ever stopped and read the posts? obviously not because you got NOTHING out of all the data provided to you on these pages.. ok fine.. don’t want to read the comments here which in fact are very educational and very factual, GO AND READ SOMETHING THAT IS NOT PRO-TURKISH and chewed up by your Turkish govt and fed to you with force… it is amuzing to see by throwing up some messed up words and expressions, it will serve you and the whole denialists community justice..well it is not…  it is absolutely pathetic…

    and you tell US that everything ARmenians touch smells foul?? and this is coming out of a hard core denialists…    

  861. Gayane,

    Okay, I’ll respect your decision of abject cowardice in your refusal to debate me. But please be an adult about it and stop throwing “denialism” and other terms around as a “defense”. You’ll find that people will actually respect you then! Also, I’m not “harrassing” you. This is yet another attempt to divert and deny your escapism regarding debating. Don’t worry, I’ll not ask you again for a debate, since you’ve already shown your true colors and lack of historical knowledge.  

  862. take a hike, Robert oglu.

    one thing Gayane does not suffer from is, quote, ‘abject cowardice’: she afraid of you ? What medicine has been prescribed  to you by your MD ?
    She is ignoring you. Do you  understand the difference between  fearing someone and ignoring someone  ?
     
    What’s the matter son, have had rejection problems with women in your life ? can’t take “Not interested” for an answer ?

    You are just looking for attention: nobody here cares what you think, or your lack of debating ability. 
    Your phony indignation was mildly entertaining at one time, but we have seen it before: it  is quite annoying  by now.

    Your ‘Robert’ team  was  exposed as a phony long ago.
    None of you   ‘Robert’-oglar  is worthy of discussion here.

    Go away. Go and play with your Anti-Armenian buddies @Hurriyet and @DailyZaman. 

  863. Monastras, this comment requires citations to support it.  Otherwise I will simply consider it a bigoted smear of Armenians and Kurds: 

    ” Armenian and Kurdish bandits dominated the area”
    (on why Talaat Pasha said many genocide perpetrators were not prosecuted for political reasons.

    Also, please answer my previous question to you about the “foul smell”
     

  864. gor,

    true, as I said I use various expressions in order to refer to the same reality.  This is not so unusual if you consider other examples. You may call this semantics, And the relationship between the Bulgarian case and the Armenian case is for me one of classification.Other things may also be said for instance that Bulgaria 1877-78 is part of the context for the ittihadist policies in 1915-16. And you and I disagree. So be it 

        

  865. Robert, you don’t need to worry whether Gayane is respected.  Her friends know who and what she is and that she has more courage than any committee of genocide deniers.  You should think more about your own reputation which would be greatly enhanced by a courageous acknowledgment of Turkish responsibility for the genocide of the Armenian nation.

  866. Avery jan– mersi … yes qez ashxarhi chap sirum em… :) u qo xosqera shat shat lav ein..:)

    Boyajian jan– nuynpes shnorhakal em qo xosqeri hamar…  :) well said my friend.

  867. ROBERT OGLU (OGLUS)… i am surprised that a man with your intelligence would think my refusal to even talk to a denialist like you would be considered an abject cowardice vs PURE “I AM IGNORING YOUR BS” …. and i asked you this before… why do YOU want to debate with ME when you have plenty of absolutely brilliant individuals on these pages that already proved YOU and other denialists wrong for all your false statements/comments/posts……are you upset that i exposed you of lying through your teeth few times on these pages?? if so, get over it.. man up, admit it and move on.. but don’t expect everyone to sit here and believe your BS debate ticket with someone who never ever invited you nor initiated any desire to debate with you… but yet you keep pushing your demand.. I call THAT HARASSMENT… . guess you dont’ understand English apparently because when I asked you to stop HARASSING ME with your BS debate you continue to do so….You got your answers from me SEVERAL times.. I even proved you how you lied by providng evidence with specific dates and specific comments…. i know it is hard to be proven wrong especially by a woman but it is life.. forget and move on……

    oh.. let me give you the explanation of harassment…. maybe this will help you…..

    harassment: systematic persecution by besieging with repeated annoyances, threats, or demands..or should I change it to stop hounding which means unrelenting pursuit to gain a desired end which you will never get…or should i say stop pestering which means inflict a succession of petty annoyances…i believe all these applies to you Robert oglu…sir…

    I may no not have patience with denial, i may despise lies and false accusations, i may not have extensive knowledge in politics and history as my friends on these pages do.. but i know one thing.. wrong is wrong.. …and I am not afraid to admit my faults.. UNLIKE YOU.. hence, your alleged abject cowardice does not reply to me sir because it was not ME who tried to pull a quick one by representing himself with many faces and names.. case closed… 

    denialism, false accusations, and hate toward Armenians (ordinary Armenians) is very widespread among denialists (we see this on Turkish sites and even on our pages) and that is what i call COWARDICE Robert….

  868. As far as I know, governments are always responsible for the welfare of all their citizens. Civilized governments and societies work on behalf of their people, and do not resort to deportation, wholesale murder or concentration camps. This is a basic tenet, but from time to time, completely insanity takes over and we get horrific final solutions…genocides…as happened in Turkey, Germany, Cambodia, Rwanda. Apologizing and distancing oneself from the madmen, rather than supporting them after the fact, is another sign of civilized behavior. The time has come.

  869. Boyajian

    I am sorry I am unable to respond you quickly. But I will come back to you with the explanation in the coming days 

  870. monastras

    you write that you asked this question:2-You also said the Armenians doesn’t have to take their case to the ICJ. I am asking you why not? If the outcome will be in their favor. They will put an end to the denialism of Turkey. What prevent them to stay away from the ICJ? Doesn’t this show that I am not the only one who finds their story dubious?

    I dont believe I ever said this. By the way I dont think bringing the case in for ICJ or another international court will solve the problem between the countries. Official Turkey and many researchers did not accept the ICTJ legal advice as the ultimate truth, because 1) the ICTJ provides very little explanation, or none, actually, 2) says that it is not their orimary task to decide on factual matters, but only talks about the “most likely” conclusion, 3) operates with low threshold criteria regarding the application of the genocide    definition. They only say that probably there existed people with genocidal intent, whereas for genocide research and Armenian scholars the central point is that the government orchestrated mass murder. If  ICJ tries to resolve the issue, they will have to go into the whole historical debate. But in an important sense there is no real debate, because both sides talk to the already converted, and ICJ cannot do anything about this. The Armenian-Turkish dialogue of the deaf  will possibly continue  1) forever, 2) until the parties succumb to fatigue – like Aznavour – or POSSIBLY 3) until the parties organise a real, comprehensive dialogue which ends with some REAL agreement. That is, they must organise something like the commission of historians which the Armenians so far have rejected. But of course todays AKP Turkey may in the future concede that the atheist  ittihadists actually exterminated the Armenians, not because they necessarily believe this, but because it may fit in as a part of the strategy against the Turkish secularists. This will not be very sincere. Only a sincere debate – needless to say – can solve the question and remove the real trauma and the hurt feelings. 
      

  871. yes, we disagree on Bulgaria,  ragnar naess,    because the very notion of relationship between the Bulgarian and the Armenian cases is sickening. If we take classification as grouping of events according to similarities between them, then except for human casualties to various magnitude, there are no similarities in these two events. Bulgaria 1877-78 could not constitute a part of the context for the Ittihadists’ exterminatory policies in 1915 because the context of their policies was driven by their decision to remove the Armenians from what had been their ancestral homeland in order to accomplish several strategic objectives: (1) to eliminate a perceived Armenian ‘threat’ to the war against Russia; (2) to punish Armenians for national liberation aspirations which the Ittihadist authorities believed to be ‘rebellious’, and, most importantly, (3) to realize their ambitions to create a pan‐Turkic state that would stretch from Anatolia through the Caucasus to Central Asia.  Anyway, as we move on to other terms and expressions that you use in order to refer to the reality, it is important to understand that there are some terms and expressions that by definition do not refer to the reality, but actually distort or disfigure it. One such term or number rather, is 600,000-800,000. How can one claim that it refers to reality when there are different numbers that refer to the same reality? Same with the dates ‘1915-16’. If they refer to the reality, then the 1896 Hamidian massacres, the 1909 Adana massacres, the 1915 genocide and several years after it right up to the 1922 Smyrna massacres are outside the reality? Same with the use of the verb ‘died’ instead of ‘were murdered’ or at least ‘lost lives’. If ‘died’ doesn’t exclude the possibility that many Armenians were murdered, but in essence means ‘stopped living’, then why not use ‘were murdered’ to correctly refer to reality that in turn doesn’t exclude the possibility that many Armenians died in conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction?

  872. gor,

    well, there is certainly more work to be done here. However, I feel that you repeat the mistakes of the Jewish authors who insisted that the Holocaust was so unique that no comparison with other events could be made. It implies a kind of game in which one, confronted with reasonable indications of similarities, just insists in pointing to the differences, insisting that they express the essence of the phenomena. For me the exclusivity of Jewish claims of uniqueness, as well as Armenian claims about the Armenian catastrophe, or genocide,as belonging to a different, morally more reprehensive category of crime than the ethnic cleansings – and genocides, if one wants to use the word, of Muslims, is itself morally dubious.   

  873. ragnar naess,     it is advisable to do more thorough homework before visiting an online publication where descendants of the genocide victims post. Here’s another mistake in the chain of mistakes that you’ve made: “you repeat the mistakes of the Jewish authors who insisted that the Holocaust was so unique that no comparison with other events could be made.”  First of all, those Jewish authors who insisted that Holocaust was unique were denialists of other genocides. As you may know, there are many Jewish genocide scholars, historians, and dozens of Nobel Prize laureates accepting non-uniqueness of the Holocaust and advocating recognition of the Armenian genocide.  Secondly, Jewish authors who insisted that the Holocaust was unique did not make comparison with other events; they made comparisons with other genocides. Whereas you advocate comparison between an event that was internationally recognized as genocide by the International Center for Transitional Justice, twenty-six parliaments of the world, the European Parliament, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, and scores of other organizations and individuals, and an event that happens virtually during any war waged by the mankind: killings of the civilians representing one, both, or multiple parties to a war. Morally, I can share the pain of the Turks although I know they were the ones who initiated mass killings of the Bulgarian villagers. But, regardless, innocent people were killed, and I morally sympathize. But is it not morally dubious to equalize a wartime episode, taken out of the context of hundreds of other wars where civilians have suffered casualties, with a deliberate, premeditated, and centrally-executed physical annihilation of a whole people by their own government?
     
    P.S.   Genocide is morally more reprehensive category of crime than ethnic cleansing. There’s certainly more work that you ought to do here, too. These two crimes bear two different definitions, with genocide being a crime against humanity.  As such, it was warranted with a separate term coined by an international lawyer and a separate definition found in a separate UN Convention.

  874. Ragnar says

    That is, they must organise something like the commission of historians which the Armenians so far have rejected

    Really???? Turkey so far refuses to move forward with so called protocols. so what would say about that???  At least we know what happened and don’t see a reason to put on a show like TUrkey LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS to do.. but they outright reject any advancements because of their selfish reasons and malice…  

  875. Gor jan you are absolutely correct .. and i agree with you 100%…

    Ragnar– you are not correct..your explanation and reasoning does not make sense.. sorry… 

  876. Monastras– why do you always have to get back to someone when they pose a question for you??? you take forever to reply to any of the posts/comments/questions directed to you…. it seems to me as if you take what is asked of YOU and you go to someone else for answers.. then come back and post the answers given to you by your teacher or whoever is helping you.. just something I noticed about you..why dont’ you reply when you read the questions and not take forever….. is it because you don’t know the answer???

  877. gor

    I am happy that you will share the pain of Turks who had their ancestors killed and that you feel sorrow for civilians that were driven out from their homes by fright of massacres that were taking place by Russian soldiers, Kossacks and Bulgarian bands. This happened in spite of the laws of war acknowledged by civilized countries. Crimes against the Turks anyhow were crimes against humanity. Of course these things happen, but they should not have happened. Neither do they happen in any war. It is not right as you say that this happens virtually in any war. In the Franco-German war in 1870 there were never massacres of this kind, nor in the war between Austria and Germany in 1864. American troops did not massacre Japanese or German civilians after the victory. But 250 thousand Turks perished in 1877-78. I cannot understand or accept your reasoning here, neither from the factual, nor from the moral point.

    I cannot understand you reasoning regarding jewish historians:  Katz and Bauman and other prominent Jewish authors who adhere to the uniqueness thesis. They do not make comparisons with other genocides, as you say, because according to their own reasoning they would not acknowledge the other events as genocides, for instance acknowledge the massacres, high mortality and deportations of the Armenians as genocide. With Yehuda Bauer I am not sure, but Katz and the mainstream of Jewish scholarship on these issues to my mind deny that the events of 1915 constitute genocide.

    About saying that genocide is more morally reprehensible than certain crimes against humanity: I believe it is impossible to compare when the actions are that heinous and do happen on a great scale. 
          

  878. monastras

    I will come back to some of the other points I made, but will only make one point now. You said the ittihadists did was was possible under the circumstances. Now the question of money used for the Armenian deportees is more complicated because I believe that local funds also were used, not only the funds of IAMM. But if it is right that only a fraction of the money allotted by the government for resettling of people who were on the move were used for Armenians, then the question is not about what the government was capable of doing. Evidently they were capable of handing out almost 100 million piastres to help Muslims who were refugees from the Balkans, but only a ridiculously small sum for Armenians relocated by the order of the government. This has to do with discrimination, not with lack of possibilities as the money obvious was there and could be used for other people than the Armenians.   

  879. Gayane

    The reason is simple . I am a liar and I need to invent a story every time when somebody asks a question so I obviously need more time to spread my fabrications. 

  880. Despite all the back and forth we read here, with some writers suggesting some kind of ‘agreement’ or ‘reconciliation’ or some form of meeting of the minds in both Turkey and Armenia, what seems to be lacking from the non-Armenian posters is any request or requirement that Turkey should do anything.  Their stance seems to be (if implied but not actually stated), that Turkey can remain a silent stone, can turn its back on its own history and walk the other way….and that this is all just fine.  I think for Armenians, this is the real crux of the problem – to see and read that what actually took place doesn’t seem to bother anyone in the Turkish camp.  Ultimately, Armenians are looking for some shred of humanity, instead of a defense of psychopathic insanity that led to the deaths of millions, including many relatives, and the loss of a way of life.  If they were to get that in a sincere way, instead of some kind of nasty lip-service, I believe there would be a change of attitude on the Armenian side, but only if it came along with some level of trust and legitimacy and a sense of permanence. Without that, yes…this issue will probably continue unabated forever, which is unfortunate for all parties. It’s pretty easy to turn this into a win/win, but just like a child who stole a cookie from the jar and doesn’t want to reveal it to his parents, he will concoct all kinds of stories to deflect them, and cause all kinds of tension in the hope of avoiding the truth…but, once he comes clean, everything can get back to normal. The problem is, the kid in this case stole not just a few cookies, but murdered the neighbor’s grandmother at the same time…so, he has alot to atone for, especially if he wants to play in the sandbox again.

      

      

     

  881. Monastras that is nice and true in your case. but you still did not answer so many questions posed directly to you… the respecful way is to reply to any questions within 48 hours and not two weeks like you usually do.. because the more time passes and more comments and more information is shared and everything else gets pushed back.. this is very convinenient for you i am sure but that is not how it works for those who do respond in a reasonable time frame.. which is why i asked you.. do you take this information to someone else and then come back with  response???

  882.  Ragnar.. in your September 29th post you said:

    Crimes against the Turks anyhow were crimes against humanity

    really?????? well.. i must have been blind or deaf because never knew that Turks perishing during war autrocities constitue crime against humanity…. (even though very sad). very interesting how do you cook up these things are just out of my reach……… 

  883. Karekin
    I am none of the very few non-armenians here, so I’ll answer for myself. The dialoge here in AW is very much determined by questions asked. To my mind the discussion between e.g. gor and me is interesting and important. I learn from it even if we disagree. But I am generally not invited to say anything about what Turks and Turkey should do in this discussion. – However I remind you that my bottom line is that Turkey has a clear moral debt, the country and the individual Turks must go more honestly into the black spots of their history, among which the Armenian fate is one of the most important. I raised this issue very clearly with Turks when I was in Ankara and Istanbul, and will continue to do it.
    But at the same time I criticize Armenian views when I experience them as mistaken and counterproductive. I believe such mistaken strategies is a factor slowing down the path to justice. But of course the Turkish recalcitrance is a more important impediment. (I have no illusions regarding my own influence on things, but I relate to justice as best as I can, for instance by exhorting my students to challenge Turks on the issue. I have told about this earlier.). Here on the pages of AW I raise various issues with Monastras, as you see. The dialogue with M. is the first real dialogue with a Turks I have had here, and I learn from it and experience that it is important. I have argued against Murat, Necati and against Kivrikoglu when he made a short visit here. I argue with my Turkish friends.
    So I believe I tell Turks what to do, according to my understanding, not only Armenians.
           

  884. ragnar naess,     beware of rephrasing other posters’ words. I never said I “share the pain of Turks who had their ancestors killed and that you feel sorrow for civilians that were driven out from their homes by fright of massacres that were taking place by Russian soldiers, Cossacks and Bulgarian bands.”  I said: “I can share the pain of the Turks [:] innocent people were killed, and I morally sympathize.”  There’s no need to be more Turkish than a Turk and use slyness, their national trait, by adding words never uttered by an author. Turkish civilians were not driven out from their homes: these were the homes that their occupier ancestors built on other people’s land. Turkish civilians were not subjected to massacres in a no-war situation as in the case of Armenians: they suffered atrocities because they represented the civilian element of a party to war and they’ve faced retaliation for the Turkish/Muslim paramilitaries’ massacres of up to 100,000 innocent Bulgarian villagers before the war. Also, ‘bands’ is an incorrect term to use for the Bulgarian freedom-fighters who wished to liberate their lands from occupier Turkish settlers.
     
    You say: “this happened in spite of the laws of war acknowledged by civilized countries” and then bring a couple of wars fought by the European countries in which there were no massacres of the civilians. I don’t necessarily disagree that not all wars saw massacres of the civilians, that’s why I used the phrase “virtually all.” But most of them did, for sure. World War One, World War Two (Hiroshima and Nagasaki), Napoleonic Wars, Congolese Wars, Thirty Years War, Korean War, Vietnam War, The Gulf War, and many more wars resulted in casualties amongst the civilian population. But then, again, how does this relate to the no-war situation in the eastern parts of Turkey and Cilicia and to the fate of unthreatening Armenians who represented no party to war against Turkey?
     
    The denialist Jewish historians oppose admitting other cases that met or are in the process of meeting the criteria as genocides, such as the Armenian genocide. I never heard that these denialists opposed the wartime episode with the Bulgarian Turks, because this event was never qualified as genocide. What can’t you understand?
     
    Atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks were not crimes against humanity. Your turkocentrism swerves you away from the reality, as we’ve observed on many occasions here. As defined by the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court Explanatory Memorandum, crimes against humanity “are particularly odious offenses in that they constitute a serious attack on human dignity or grave humiliation or a degradation of one or more human beings. They are not isolated or sporadic events, but are part either of a government policy or of a wide practice of atrocities tolerated or condoned by a government or a de facto authority” (emphases mine).

  885. Gayane,      the atrocities against Bulgarian Turks committed by their war enemies—Russians and Bulgarian freedom-fighters—are indeed mentioned in books, not only in those of the deniers. The difference is that only deniers qualify this wartime episode as ‘genocide’ thus attempting to equalize it with and justify the genocidal extermination of Armenians. No earnest, self-respecting genocide scholar or historian would allow him- or herself to juxtapose these unmatched events, more so to justify deliberate annihilation of the Armenians by civilian casualties that Bulgarian Turks suffered in a war waged between Turks and Russians. It’s an absurd verging on hallucination!

  886. Monastras, take as long as you need to find the answers to questions, as long as the time you take is to search your heart for the truth. Please try to open your eyes and mind and answer as a human being with compassion and not a foot soldier of the deep state. Over a million innocent people were killed because of ‘panic’ according to your formulation. ‘Panic’ does not make the events any less despicable or any less worthy of a just consequence.

    It would be inhuman to not have compassion for the suffering of any person regardless of their race or ethnicity. Of course Turks suffered, too, but any suffering caused by Armenians is miniscule when compared to the loss of life, land, and culture that occurred at the hands of the Turks in the Armenian genocide.

    I wish I understood better the coldness of heart of many Turks who write here and elsewhere. When I visit the Hurriyet and Zaman sites I am shocked by the distortion of truth that is allowed on those pages. The Karabakh events get portrayed as an unprovoked land grab by Armenians; and references to ASALA are made without any historical relation to the genocide. History is ignored and fiction gets presented as fact: “Azeris always occupied those lands. Armenians were the intruders!” Turkey and Azerbaijan have done an amazing job of misinforming and confusing their citizens. The propaganda machine is in full swing and is designed to turn public opinion against Armenians. The world has been turned upside down. The attackers blame the victims and the victims are called whiners and are met with deaf ears. And my children are growing up in a world where genocide and ethnic cleansing happens over and over and very little is done about it. That is why we cannot rest until justice is done.

  887. “The problem is, the kid in this case stole not just a few cookies, but murdered the neighbor’s grandmother at the same time…so, he has alot to atone for, especially if he wants to play in the sandbox again.”
      
    I really like Karekin’s last post.  So much that I re-read it.  While I agree with his thoughts in this case, I have a reaction to the excerpt above:

    Yes, the kid (Turkey) took more than a “few cookies” and has much to atone for, but the kid has been playing in the sandbox all along!  The kid has claimed all the abandoned toys in the sand box as his own, has renamed the sand castles and sand mountains and has been allowed to do so for so long that he believes it was always his and is indignant over the thought that he should give any of it back.  And unfortunately, his ‘parents’ (the other civilized countries of the world) are ineffectual at helping him learn right from wrong; they give in to his tantrums instead.

  888. ‘. I am shocked by…. the distortion of truth that is allowed on those pages.’  (emphasis mine).

    Boyajian, I commend TZ and HDN for posting those comments.
    Don’t  be shocked: be grateful that  TZ and HDN are giving us an accurate sample of the psyche and thinking of  modern Turks.

    Would TZ and HDN not posting those comments mean Turks’  thinking was
    any different ?
    Turks that post comments like that exist in  Turkey and Turk diaspora today, 2011: not seeing does not mean they do not exist. 
     
    And one of those Turks is Ms. Monstras, with whom you are pleading to  ‘…..search her  heart for the truth’: Boyajian, you honestly believe you can reach someone like that –  someone who is convinced the Armenian Genocide was a fabrication by defeated Armenians ? 

  889. Gayane,

    You say that you’ve expose me regarding “lies”! Please humor me and provide these expose’s! Since it’s already been established that I am not harrassing you, your claim of ignoring me is simply a weak cover for your fear of going one-on-one in a debate (it doesn’t matter who it’s with, me or anyone else). You see Gayane, I chose to ask you to debate, not because you’re a woman, but because you can be quite rude, insolent and outspoken! You can use any term you want, be defended by as many people as you want, but it all boils down to your abject fear of knowing that you have to actually defend yourself, instead of relying on others to do it for you. However, as I said before, I will not ask you any longer for a debate, since you’ll only keep coming up with lame excuses, denials and accusations. So you can continue being yourself as you denegrate others, hoping that the AW editorial board will delete their response(s), so you won’t have to defend yourself on any charges/insults/ inuendoes, etc. which you may have thrown at them. At this stage Gayane, anything that you say in response become moot at best.  

      Boyajian,

    That’s a two-way street my friend. BTW, I’d like to say how refreshing it is to have a discussion with someone such as yourself who doesn’t resort to constant insults, denials when challenged, vulgarities, distortions, etc.! Thank you for that.

    Avery,

    I didn’t know that you wanted to be part of the discussion, Mr. Helper! Hmm, after reading your comment about me in your attempt to defend Gayane, you bring up situations dealing with women and rejection. I wouldn’t know, so I take it that you must be speaking from personal experience! I believe that this is not the site or forum to discuss your personal problems. As for the rest of your comments, all I can say is that your desperation is showing just a tad!!     

  890. Avery, I get your point regarding TZ and HDN.  You’re right.  It is good to know AND it is shocking just the same.

    Regarding my comment to Monastras, I wasn’t pleading.  I wanted to indicate under what condition I think taking time to answer is worthwhile.  I am well aware of her views. I don’t think that my words will change her.  But I put it out there anyway.  Maybe it will have an affect on someone else.  You never know.  Robert liked it!

    Robert, your nice words to me proved me right.  I just knew you’re mother didn’t raise you to be a jerk!  Now that you have expressed your preference for a civil discussion, why don’t you leave Gayane alone.  You are most definitely harassing her.  I am sure your mother wouldn’t approve of that either.  Civility is also a two-way street.  Are you ready to give up your ‘snarkitude’ and unexamined hostility toward Armenians and have an honest discussion about the genocide?  That’s my challenge to you, my friend.

  891. oh i forgot to mention…few things to show how manipulative, conyving and yes a liar that you are Robert the Turk…

    Robert
    September 15, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Gayane,
    No, you never did answer me in this regard, as you claim. But okay. I respect your decision to turn down my request for a debate (FYI, no major debate was ever done to set the record straight. Requests were made to ANCA and the ARF party for two decades. Each time they refused, giving a variety of typically lame excuses [the reality being of course, that they can’t debate for fear of the truth coming forth])

    gayane
    September 15, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    Robert the Turk: you said the following:
    Gayane,
    No, you never did answer me in this regard, as you claim

    not only you called me a liar but you also called me a denialists without strong evidence… is this your way of trying to look like you have the upper hand? is this how you show you a man??? huh? i laugh at you..this shows how weak of a person you are Robert…
    Here is the original chain … and like i asked you before GET OFF MY CASE and stop harassing me with your debate BS….
    YOUR ORIGINAL POST to me:
    Robert
    September 7, 2011
    Gayane,

    Let’s you and I debate! Consider this a challenge. You ought not to have any problems, since you obviously know everything, and of course we Turks are nothing but cold-blooded denialist killers anyway, while your people have NEVER hurt a single soul and have always been the angelic victims of the mean, blood-thirsty, oppressive Turk (no mention ever, of course, of oppressions upon your people from other empires)! What say you? 
     
    MY ORIGINAL REPLY TO YOUR POST ABOVE (this is the reply to your : Gayane never replied to my post about the debate)
     
    gayane
    September 7, 2011

    I am sorry Robert.. Until I know which one of you is posting on these pages as you know you played with our minds and hearts ther will be no you and I… sorry….  until you apologize to all of us  for contineously insulting my ancestor’s memory by lying to us, you have no room to even address your comments to me…..
    YOU need to stop referring us as if we are saying the regular Turks are cold-blooded killers..No one .. I REPEAT.. NO ONE on these pages ever said that ordinary Turks are cold -blooded murderers…however, we DID say that your ANCESTORS were INDEED all the things mentioned by you… fact is a fact.. please face it, embrace it, know it, and realize it… but I will say this though.. I never said I know EVERYTHING.. stop spreading lies yet again.. but i know this Robert.. I know this very well: YOU are a DENIALIST…no questions about it.. and I stand behind my word…… sorry Robert (Roberts… who knows which one is posting) for being upfront …..
    WHO IS LYING NOW ROBERT????
    Gayane


    gayane

    September 15, 2011 | Permalink | Reply

    According to you Robert the Turk Armenians are afraid to debate and [the reality being of course, that they can’t debate for fear of the truth coming forth]).(your statement)
     
    Well if that is the case Robert… explain to me why Turkey has been on a mission for years now to purge and get rid of all evidence related to Genocide in YOUR TURKISH ARCHIVES….??? It is absolutely amazing that the denialists grew 10 inch tongues knowing their govt pretty much wiped out all the original evidence in their archives and now they feel they WANT or DEMAND a debate.. why did not you losers offer debate years ago when the archives were somewhat in tact and untouched and Armenians finally decided to face you monsters (denialists and Turkish govt..NOT THE ORDINARY TURKS… ) I know Robert and them other denialists or Turkophiles LOVE to jump on every chance they get to call us anit-Turkish .. I wanted to make this CRISPY CLEAR..repeat… NOT THE ORDINARY 

    When “Robert’  concocted the story about him allegedly having lost a brother to heart disease, I truly truly gave him the benefit of the doubt.. myself and my friends including Avery and Boyajian who actually read his words believed ‘him’ when he wrote that  ‘he’ was a changed man, due to having (allegedly) experienced a very personal loss. However, as we have seen, his subsequent posts and behaviour  leave no doubt that not only I but we were all played.
    It seems to me that the only reason for that story was to stop us from reminding ‘Robert’ about his promise not to come back to @AW. Did you not promise that Robert???? Robert couldn’t freely spew his Anti-Armenian propaganda, because he was being reminded of his promise every time he tried to post.  Robert really wanted and needed to be able to again post @AW freely.  He needed  a way out of  the dead-end he had boxed himself into – so he played us with that story..We extended a hand of friendship, but not only he spank it but he became even more anti-Armenian…   And we were also very annoyed that and very aware that  ‘Robert’ is more than one person – a group of Turks posting under ‘Robert’..

    So it is clear to me Robert that this type of act: using different names with different avatars constitutes to ummmm what is the word.. what is the word… yes..’A LIE” ….. case closed…i would suggest you stop going back to this and start thinking how you are going to answer to some of the questions posed to you on I” Don’t Bear a Hidden Agenda’: Erdogan Lays Out Vision for New Middle East”

    oh and here is another message for you from another one of our brilliant posters…
    Congratulations to the Armenian Weekly! You seem to have increased your Turkish denialist readership. Obviously we must have touched some raw nerve to attract several more paid PR people to detract and desuade our readers. Too bad it won’t work. Poor ROBERT, if he were doing a better job at his senseless and ineffective attacks, they probably wouldn’t have hired Mike, John The Turk and Ahmet to help him. Careful Robert, your paycheck from the Turkish Info Agency is in danger of being cut off!
    In ROBERT-LAND everyone else is wrong only the Turks are right — all the time

       
     
      

  892. Robert the Turk… please refrain from addressing to my friends in such manner..Your dark shadow could not even come close to what Avery has and who he represents….you belittling us..won’t get you anywhere… it seems like you have a tendency to show such characteristics…same thing was done to my dear friend Seervart when you said…

    Are you a Satan worshipper? Only someone with an evil heart and misguided beliefs of falacy and self-delusion would make such a comment post! Before the Ottoman Empire, how many other Empires were the Armenians subjects of? A fair question! The Hittites, the Persians, the Greeks, the Romans, the Byzantines, the Ottomans ad the Russian soviet communists.

    You know what the difference is Robert?? When we address something and we voice our annoyance and frustration, we back it up with strong facts and justification.. when you and the rest of the denialists (IDP- international denialists party) jump on the wagon and try to put us down, they do it because of no other reason but having remorse.. feeling defeated and from sheer hatred…. now that is a shame..   

  893. gor

    I am afraid we dont get any further with the question of Bulgaria in 1877. These Turks were civilians according to international usage at the time, and the laws of war were not observed and 250.000 died as a result of ethnic cleansing.Horrible.  But my point – I repeat it – is that the reasons given by ICTJ in 2002 to hold that Armenians were subjected to genocide also apply to Turks in Bulgaria. And this is my interpretation, other who doubt or deny have not emphasized this. My interpretation, given in one of my lectures, was characterised as interesting by a Norwegian specialist who works in the UN on questions of genocide. But it is my interpretation of the implications of the rationale provided by the ICTJ. To posit the question in the context of a historical development of several hundred years, is however not relevant juridically speaking. The remaining Bulgarian Turks were moreover granted full civil rights after the end of ethnic cleansing in early 1879, as the new Bulgaria wanted to appear as a civilized country. According to your reasoning – should they all have been expelled?

  894. The reality is that I understand fairly well, from years of advanced study in academia and on my own, and in excruiciating detail, the entire continuum of history of the Middle East, including that of Armenia, Anatolia, Turks, Persians, Hittites, Hurrians, Urartu, Sumeria, Assyria, etc, etc, etc. over the last 50,000 years.  I’m very familiar with the events, chronologies, the shifts in populations, in borders, languages, religions and philosophies quite well. I believe that the facts should always be conveyed without spin and without the overlays of either political or religious conviction. 

    Unfortunately, some of the loudest mouths in this, and many other debates, belong to the whores of the world, who feel the need to cheerleader on behalf of one political enity or another. Their allegiances are always related, on some level and when you dig far enough, to those who are paying their way in life. They then feel the need to ‘protect’ their patrons and their (often patently false) ideas, policies and even, propaganda or historical revisionism.  I am beholden to no one, either financially or any other way.  I can call a spade a spade without hesitation.  

    However, once that is all put aside, maybe we can honestly discuss the nuts and bolts of the anti-Armenian laws that are still on the books in Turkey, that stifle not only honest historical discussion, but also unbiased, objective intellectual development on any topic related to Armenians.  Maybe we can discuss how or why Turkey can’t institute the humanitarian changes needed that will allow the indigenous inhabitants of their country to participate all walks of life there?  Maybe we can discuss how and why Turkey engineered a population exchange with Greece, instead of resorting to wholesale genocide, as it did with Armenians?  Maybe we can examine, in detail, how many ‘Turks’ might actually have deep roots and Armenian ancestors, since most of them do, and the psychological pathologies involved in their subsequent treatment of Armenians living there? 

    I only bring this up in this way because based on history, Turkey and Turks owe quite a bit to their Armenian heritage, yet continually act like there is no connection at all.  In reality, the connection is so deep it can’t be ignored, unless you force yourself to do so with propaganda, lies and spin. This is why solving this problem is so difficult and so intractable: after years of pretending that Armenians and their history either did not exist at all or were dangerous or something to hide, the people of Turkey are now shocked to see any mention of Armenians at all, which is almost something from the world of the absurd.  

    Let’s think of the Kennedys….Pres. Kennedy, always well loved, had a brother who murdered a girl and then covered it up, and they both had a sister who was rendered mindless from a botched lobotomy and lived a hidden existence in a mental institution… and neither situation was ever openly discussed for many, many years. Yet, by eventually discussing these tragedies in public and doing good deeds, the Kennedy’s avoided being branded as inhumane politicians.

    This is a huge lesson for Turkey. Yes, their 20th C history is a difficult one for them to discuss honestly, particularly with those who became directly dispossessed, homeless, destitute and destroyed by their actions, but it must be done eventually and the sooner, the better, for all concerned parties.  Whether we know it or not, or like it or not, as a result of history, we are all brothers, cousins, and part of the same disfunctional family in some way…just like the Kennedys.  It’s time to deal with it like adults.  Hard to do, but it must be done.

       

       

        

  895. ragnar naess,     the laws of war were not observed during most of the wars waged by the humans. This is a sad, but undeniable fact. You embarrass me when you single out the fate of the Bulgarian Turks, while deliberately omitting the fate of Bulgarian villagers slaughtered by the Turks earlier. Bulgarian Turks suffered, I repeat, because (a) a year prior to the war Turks and other Muslims have slaughtered up to 100,000 Bulgarian civilians to suppress the Bulgarian national uprising; and (b) Turkish civilians were the ethnic component of a party that was at war at the time. Yes, the laws of war were not observed, but were they observed in most of the wars that were waged throughout the history of the mankind? Are they observed nowadays in the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq? If the laws of war were not observed in the case of the Bulgarian Turks, then what war the Armenians waged against the Turks so its laws were not observed with respect to them? Can you answer this question? I don’t think so, because there was neither an interstate war nor even a civil war in the Armenian case, as your beloved buddy McCarthy bloviates. It is sad that you give this ill-conceived interpretation of the ICTJ resolution in the lectures. You essentially juxtapose wartime atrocities against a civilian component of a warring party and no-war wholesale destruction of a people as a race who were nowhere near being a civilian component of a warring party. Do you get the difference? If you think the reasons given by ICTJ that hold that Armenians were subjected to genocide also apply to Turks in Bulgaria, then the question never answered by you is: should the ICTJ adopt resolutions for any war case in which atrocities against the civilians almost inevitably occur? Even more appalling is your attempt to justify genocidal extermination of the Armenians because Turkish war casualties that happened some 40 years before were a ‘part of the context’ for the Ittihadist policies against the Armenians. This makes me doubt at times that I hold discussion with a reasonable man. If you give such interpretation in your lectures in concert with the applicability of the ICTJ resolution to the Bulgarian Turks, you may run the risk of making yourself a laughingstock before a serious scholarly audience.
     
    Since this figure, 250,000, is being repeatedly given to indicate the number of casualties of the Bulgarian Turks, let me state for the record. The estimates of Turkish civilian casualties during the 1877-78 Russo-Turkish war range from tens of thousands, according to Mark Levene in Genocide in the Age of the Nation State: The Rise of the West and the Coming of Genocide, to 250,000, according to Justin McCarthy. One should note, however, that, as Michael Mann stated in The Dark Side of Democracy: Explaining Ethnic Cleansing, the figure 250,000 is derived from McCarthy, who is often viewed as a scholar on the Turkish side of the debate. The perpetrators of atrocities are also disputed, with McCarthy claiming, and you repeating, that they were carried out only by Russian soldiers, Cossacks, and Bulgarian volunteers, while James Reid claims in Crisis of the Ottoman Empire: Prelude to Collapse 1839 1878, that Circassians were also significantly responsible for the refugee flow, that there were civilian casualties from battles and, in some cases, the Ottoman army was responsible for casualties among Bulgaria’s Turkish population.
     
    To posit the question in the context of a historical development of several hundred years may not be relevant from the juridical point of view as far as the ICTJ resolution is concerned, but it is highly relevant for understanding the motives of the atrocities against the Bulgarian Turk. If we posit any question only in juridical sense in isolation from historical developments, are we not running the risk of making superficial conclusions? The truth remains that Turks in Bulgaria or in the Balkans or in Asia Minor or the Middle East were descendants of occupiers, colonizers and, ultimately, genocide perpetrators. Yes, eventually, if the natives succeed, occupiers are expelled. Would it sit well with you if Norway stayed a province of the Third Reich? Or expelling the Nazis from Norway would be ‘morally dubious’ and incorrect ‘juridically speaking’ according to your reasoning?

  896. gor
    The number of Turkish victims is anyhow not the main point. I now also see that Zurcher praises MCarthy’s demographical work in his latest book “The yoiung Turk heritage”. I also see that in the recent book “A question of genocide” (Gocek, Suny and Naimark) it is referred to McCarthy’s book “Death and exile”. So I believe his numbers are more or less correct. However, I know that there are demographers who have been questioning McCarthy’s methods, but I have so far not read them. – I feel that the comparisons with nazis in Norway is very farfetched. However, there is a case that may be comparable. In 1945, after the war there were several hundred children in Norway born of Norwegian mothers and German soldiers. the government had these children deported to Germany. This case has been re-opened in the last years and there is a universal condemnation of the actions of the Norwegian government at the time. Their actions were prompted by hatred and vengefulness and targeted innocent children, not nazis (the great majority of the German soldiers were also not nazis). The deportation is now seen as a black spot in Norweian history. In the same way Turks who had tilled the earth for hundreds pof years should not be treated as “nazis”. I am really shocked by your analogy. 
     

  897. Ragnar i was not referring to autrocities Turks endured…. I was referring to your statement of what happened to Turks was crime against humanity….  i was saying to you sir.. that what happened to Turks was unfortunate.. however as Gor provided plenty of evidence and data to support you wrong… the difference between BT and Armenians are just not compatible.. anywhere in “ACCURATE” history did I ever read or heard that what happened to BTs as crime against humanity.. I consider what happened to ARmenians… CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.. do you appreciate the difference????  i don’t think so because you still push your lame point about Bulgarian Turks and it is getting annoying..you are now burning oil because your arguments are not strong and obviously a way to stir the car away from the target……. … very annoying…

  898. However, I know that there are demographers who have been questioning McCarthy’s methods, but I have so far not read them.”  Well, then read them, if you will.  I gave you several authors criticizing McCarthy’s methods of computation and the numbers he uses to reduce the Armenian casualties during the genocide and inflate the Bulgarian Turks’ casualties during the Russo-Turkish war event. The comparison with the Nazis in Norway is only to demonstrate that no self-respecting indigenous nation, including the Norwegians, will tolerate foreign occupation and colonization. Your analogy with the children in Norway born to Norwegian mothers and German soldiers is far-fetched. My point was not about interbreeding or intermarriages that inevitably occur during occupation and the fate of children born as a result. My point was that the Bulgarian freedom-fighting is totally justified from the historical point of view, as is the Norwegian indignation against the German occupiers, not the children that their intermarriages had produced. The ‘tilling of the land’ argument we already discussed: nothing can convince me from the historical perspective that it was the land of the Turks that they tilled. It was a conquered land, a land belonging to other peoples. Hence the Turks were expelled. Bulgarians and other Balkan and Middle Eastern peoples have succeeded in regaining their independence; Armenians were murdered en masse without even organizing an independence movement.

  899. Ragnar– i don’t know why you continue.. your analogies, your facts, your explanations are obviously not as strong.. if someone who has no experience in history read this chain would conclude that your reasonings are just that.. reasonings that benefits your cause..but then it is different when it comes to Gor’s reasonings…very strong, to the point and make more sense than yours.. sorry……

    I just don’t understand how any reputable orgniazations would invite you to lecture.. it is very very horrifying to know you are going around and lecturing about facts that are not at all accurate or should I say serves the purpose.. very scary…  you should probably be banned from lecturing because it seems to me you do more harm than help the cause… just by reading some of your statements just leaves me in a state of “did he really believe that?? did he really say that??… wow….

    sorry just my own opinion…

  900. Ragnar, for some reason you choose this site and this thread, to repeatedly discuss the fate of Bulgarian Turks and to convince readers that Turks also suffered a genocide in the Balkans. Not sure what your point is.  

    We have covered this in the past on another thread.  What happened to the Turks is tragic and they deserve compassion for the loss of life suffered, just as the Bulgarians who were first attacked by Turks, deserve compassion for their loss of life.   But neither of these events was a genocide.   Nor was the fate of Bulgarian Turks a justification for the Ottoman Turkish murder of over 1 million innocent Armenians who had nothing to do with the losses in the Balkans.   The genocide was a tragedy of a completely different magnitude, that nearly destroyed an ancient civilization and continues to erode that civilization  today, and Turkey refuses to take responsibility for this crime against humanity. This denial is almost a greater ‘shameful act’ than the original ‘shameful act’, because it is in defiance of human rights and the civilized standards of democratic societies.  So why do you bring it up here?

    Are you trying to equalize Turkish losses in the Balkans with the Armenian genocide in order to create a more mutually empathic dialogue between Armenians and Turks?  If so, this clearly shows your bias toward the Turks who stand to gain from any lessening of Armenian hostility toward them.  But what do Armenians get from this?  Will Turkey feel compelled to say “Our past suffering at the hands of others helps us to recognize the magnitude of what we did to you and we are now prepared to consider the merits of your demands for justice.”  I doubt it.  

    Should Armenians say, “Hey, we get it now.  You were watching your power and influence steadily diminish throughout the empire and Turks were unwanted, ousted and massacred by the non-Turk ethnic groups they conquered and who now wanted to exercise self-determination.  We get that you wanted to hold on to an archaic and medieval form of imperialism, and that caused your nation to respond with aggression toward non-Turk Ottoman citizens, who were calling for freedom and equal rights, but who were really viewed as second class and not entitled to make demands.   We see that your society was not yet evolved enough to fully understand the meaning of democracy and self-determination.  We understand that you wanted to preserve whatever power and territory you could and that you felt that the ‘dogs’ were surrounding your borders as if your country was a piece of meat they were ready to pounce on and grab a bit of for themselves.  We now understand that out of such desperation, you chose to march over a million innocent people to their deaths under the cover of war because you saw them as potentially sympathetic to your enemies and an obstacle to your vision of a Turkish homeland in Asia Minor.”  

    We already understand this Ragnar.  It changes nothing.  Turkey has a crime to atone for and the descendants of the crime victims are not dogs waiting to carve up Turkey, but people who were illegally deprived of their heritage while Turkey illegally prospers from its crime.   That is all we are saying to the world.  Not that we hate Turks, but we hate what was done to us and we hate the lies told to avoid justice.  We hate that there are greedy opportunists who use these circumstances for their own gain.  We hate that geopolitics trump justice.  We hate that Armenians in Turkey, Armenia and Azerbaijan still have to fear the wrath of Turks who hate us for having the audacity to claim what is ours.  We hate that 96 years have passed and now the truth of the events are being effected by fading memory, lack of knowledge and distorted history.

    But greater than all of this, is what we love.  We love our country.  We love our heritage and we love our ancestors.  Hostile and fearful Turks call this nationalism as if that was a dirty word.  I call it basic human rights and the natural order of things.   What Turkey stole from us is immeasurable but some attempt at reparations is mandatory and achievable.   Turkey must be held accountable and the truth must not be allowed to be diluted by ‘well-meaning’ human rights activists trying to get the two sides to come to a ‘compromise’ as if one side wasn’t the clear perpetrator of a crime and the other the victim of that crime.

  901. Boyajian,      you summed it up very well. I believe this is another denialist ruse to draw nightmarish parallels between the fates of BTs and Armenians; juxtapose sufferings in two incomparable—in magnitude scope, and goals—events; equalize crimes so that genocide be applicable to the both cases; and justify Turkish war losses as part of the context for the CUP mass murders of the Armenians. While on the one hand we see how sophisticated the denialist tactics has become, on the other, one cannot but notice how low it descended in absurdity and gibberish.

  902. Everyone – remember this little axiom:  Holding a grudge is like allowing someone to live rent free – in your head. 

    Also, let’s not forget that while Armenians were slaughtered mercilessly and in the millions, in the late 19th/early 20th C., it was not the first time in their 4000+ year history that this kind of tragedy befell them. Living directly on the crossroads of history and at the juncture of major, powerful empires has never been easy or an effective strategy for anyone. When shellfish, like barnacles and mussels, cling to rocks at the ocean’s edge, they can withstand storms and tides and all kinds of calamities, but if one hungry human walks by and picks them off for the stew pot, there’s really not a lot the shellfish can do about it, unfortunately. At this point, we’re still clinging to a small part of the rock, luckily. Count your blessings. 

  903. boyajian

    a request to stop the discussion of the fate of the Bulgarian turks must be adressed to gor. I am surprised you dont see this. I can stop anytime and am not particularly interested in discussing it. I mentioned it by two-three words a long time ago, and since that gor has been asking me questions and I try to answer. So I will not answer your other comments  

  904. monastras

    I hope you are looking into the IAMM expenditures for 1915 and 1916 and how much money went to the muhacirs (sorry for earlier misspelling) and how much went to the Armenians. the discrepance seems to me to be enormous.

    About the area in which Armenians were to be resettled you write:
    You are right here, the resettlement could never support the Armenian population but you need to remember constantly that the Russian Army was approaching from the east with the help of the Armenians and half a millions of Allied soldiers were trying to crack down the Turkish Army in Dardanelles. They were in a great panic and understandably weren’t in a position to think about Armenians every day. They wanted to put an end to the Armenian resistance,assistance but didn’t think about it too much what might be the consequences of the deportation.

    comment: what you describe is a crime of negligence. Apart form that Talat in 1914 according to parliament proceedings refused to send muhacirs to Zor bewcause he said that they would die there!! However, it seems unlikely for many reasons that it simply was negligence. I think that it now is documented that Talat followed the deveopment of the Armenian policies very closely. The Black Book  (Kara Kapli Defter) he even brought along to Germany in november 1918. There was also a seminar a couple of years ago in Turkey, in Konya, in which ciphered telegrams were presented which showed a much closer monitoring of the number of Armenians, where they were located at each month, how many died, and so on, than earlier. They were assiduously counted all the time, it appears. I am sorry I cannot give you the exact name of the researcher. I was told about this by a prominent genocide researcher. Maybe you can find him?  Turkish historians like Fuad Dündar present these facts and ask the question: how could they decide to settle a million people on an area that could not support it, even if one did not enforce the rules that the proportion of Armenians was never to exceed 10% in a given area. It was impossible. Dündar just asks the question, and more vehement in hios latest book “A crime of numbers”. In the book “Ermeni soykirim hallolunmustur” Iletisim yaninlari 2008, Taner Akcam gives the answer he believes in: Armenian deportees were to be “massacred down to 10%” of their original number, he says. Now it seems Akcam has done some mistakes here, as noted by Dündar in a review, but I am sure the question still is there: can the decision to relocate people to an area that could no way support them be attributed only to the leaders’ being busy with the war effort, when we see that the interior ministry followed the deveopments regarding the Armenians very closely? Honestly, is this reasonable? At least for me the question remains unanswered, but the facts are among those who indicate genocidal intent. 
        I suggest you also go into this

  905. Boyajian,you have summed it up so magnificently & chapeau to you.To the point & very touching.I’ve copied your eruption & I will always cherish it together with other great eruptions from Gor,Avery,Gayane,Seervart & Karekin (yes Karekin).Somebody should copy these comments & publish them.Great effort of research & emotions have been invested in them & it would be pity for it to get lost.
    My dream is, one day to live with my own people & stop being the eternal foreigner.

  906. Sorry Karekin, your reference to the other times in Armenian history when we were conquered and massacred may be true but not really relevant to the current situation.  Obviously, ancient history is rife with such occurrences in many nation’s histories.  But over time, society evolved and nations developed as groups who defined themselves according to place and heritage and rights of self-determination.  Also laws developed that recognized individual civil rights and limited the right of government to impinge on these rights, while charging government with the responsibility to protect these rights.   In the twentieth century we defined one of the worst abuses of governmental power:  genocide.  Why should we now behave as if these evolutions never happened?  Your comment concerning the perils of holding a grudge is trite in light of this.  Armenians are not just holding a grudge.  We are standing up for several millenia of human development.   And yes,  this commitment to the cause of justice is burdensome, but that doesn’t mean it is not worthwhile.

  907. Ragnar, I appreciate this discussion you are having with Monastras regarding the funds allocated for Armenians vs. Muslims.  I am learning valuable information that highlights the level of contempt that the CUP had for Armenians and I agree that it indicates not just neglect, but rather, malicious intent.

    My comments regarding the discussion of the Bulgarian Turks was not intended to offend you.  I actually learned a lot from the discussion between you and Gor.  I just really don’t see what bearing any of it has on Turkish culpability for the genocide.  What bearing do you believe the events in Bulgaria have on Turkish culpability for the Armenian Genocide?

    Thanks Gor and VTiger for your encouraging words. 

  908. Ragnar, just because a book is referred to by another author does not automatically mean that the second author supports the first.  Have you read the context of the reference in Gocek, Suny, Naimark?   I will have to check out the Zurcher reference.  Don’t be so quick to pat the old revisionist on the back. 

  909. Well said Boyajian jan…as always you are write beautifully and are very polite..

    It is just unfortunate that the great minds who post here, their posts/comments do not get the attention they deserve…talking about from denialists and Turkophiles… if one reads them carefully, they will see the bigger picture and hopefully will put aside their selfish ego and think like human beings…put two and two together.. but it seems like they don’t add two and two together, they keep subtracting… it is just sad..

    I am absolutely thankful to Gor who without a doubt is much stronger debater than Ragnar or any of the denialists on these pages… and his contributions are priceless.. I just don’t get Ragnar’s persistance on a topic that is absolutely irrelevant to what Armenians endured and what we demand… why is it so hard for him? why would someone keep pushing his own agenda.. is it because they feel it is embarassing to back down late in this game?? is it because they realized “oh boy what have i done to my reputation by my weak arguments and absurd comments..??? it seems like it is a theme with these type of people.. why??   emotional and mental trauma to act like this?? fear?? i think it is fear.. fear that one day the truth will come out and it will be very harsh to swallow.. fear that maybe just maybe the years of unknown history is peeking its head and ripping the wall of denial one piece at a time… fear of discovering they have closer ties to the same lineage they hate and despise…fear their souls will forever be doomed for unfair treatment of Armenians and for lying and denying… who knows??

    G  

  910. VTiger jan- i was touched when I read your post.. and I pray to God that your dream which is also mine will come true.. to live with my people on our own lands and make our ancestors who are with our Lord Jesus Christ be proud of our work…

  911. boyajian

    we have left the Bulgarian theme now, unless gor insists in asking more questions, in which case I will try again to explain. I am much more interested in what Monastras answers. However, I believe we all have work to do in checking on references 

  912. monastras

    I did not like your post beginning with “I am a liar…”. I understand your frustration at some of the posts written against you. but we have to understand that we discuss with people whose grandparents experienced terrible things and that there is no closure since  no reparations have been made and almost no admitting of what really happened. I was also in the beginning offended by the bad language and bad manners of some of the Armenian participants. It made me consider to withdraw. But if you believe that the bottom line is that the Armenians have a just complaint, even if you disagree on some of the facts and their debating style, then you should stay in the dialogue and try to set the standards for a good debate yourself. And IF you in the end believe in dialogue. Now I believe that the Turks who are here, with the exception of people like Kivrikoglu – maybe I do him wrong. but… – that the Turks who are here are angry and protesting because the accusation hurts. and the accusations hurt because everybody realizes that they are founded in realities. So I hope you stay and do not resort to the bitter, ironical style inherent in your words “I am a liar..” and so on. This is more difficult for you and for me, because I am not a Turk. I am impressed that you are here and I am glad for it, because I believe that it is only through these kinds of debates that one eventually may reach some closure by force of a common understanding of what happened to the Armenians in the Ottoman Empire from 1878 and onwards to the republican period. They are the ones who are raising the issue about the atrocities they suffered in this period, and they deserve attention and an answer.

  913. Ragnar, I am disappointed in your last comment to me.  It seems that this is not the first time you choose to ignore comments you take as being rhetorical, when in fact they have to do with the very ideals at stake in this conflict.   

    On the other hand I think your last comment to Monastras, encouraging him to broaden his understanding of Armenians was a good one.  However, you seem to hold the patronizing view that “Armenians are like bad mannered children who have to be tolerated as they mature and learn the polite ways that mature people express discontent.”  You fail to  acknowledge the offensive manner in which Turks relate to the ‘just complaint’ brought by the Armenians and the utter frustration that denial and insensitivity creates after 96 years.  Again you seem strangely more aligned with the perpetrator, than the victim of the crime.  I can understand that you see yourself as walking a fine line between both sides.  I also appreciate that you are committed to dialogue.  But I am losing my patience with your harsh judgment against Armenian anger and demand for justice, when it is something you can only understand as an outsider.  

    Yes, Turks alive today are not the ones who committed genocide, but they are human beings who are responsible for how they each, individually, respond to another person’s pain.  Unfortunately their society teaches them to ignore Armenians and to denigrate minorities, in general.  Where are your comments on this?  
     

  914. Ragnar, our posts are a bit out of sync again.  Just for the record, I am disappointed that you, who pride yourself on answering the questions people put before you, are choosing to ignore the implied questions in my post beginning “Ragnar, for some reason you choose…” and my direct question in the comment beginning “Ragnar, I appreciate the discussion you are having with Monastras…”  Perhaps you are less comfortable with questions related to the choices you make, but more comfortable commenting on what other people say and think.

  915. ‘ last comment to Monastras, encouraging him to broaden his understanding of Armenians was a good one’

    Monastras is female. 

  916. Thanks Avery, you’re right. I forgot.  With all the times I’ve been assumed to be a male, you’d think I’d know better.

  917. boyajian

    you wrote: 
    Ragnar, for some reason you choose this site and this thread, to repeatedly discuss the fate of Bulgarian Turks and to convince readers that Turks also suffered a genocide in the Balkans. Not sure what your point is.

    comment: I believe I answered this one, that I discussed the bulgarian case  a lot more than I choose. But I also choose to mention the Bulgarian case from time to time because I believe that there are many more genocidal acts in the late Ottoman history than usually appreciated. So it is my choice of me to mention this from time to time, yes. It deals with the genocide concept and what genocides there were in this period. Turks were also victims.

       

  918. now, this is pathetic,  ragnar naess,     why would a request to stop the discussion of the fate of the BTs be addressed to gor, if gor wasn’t the one who mentioned this irrelevant wartime episode in the context of the Armenian genocide and advanced it with astounding stubbornness on these pages? If you can stop anytime, then be a man and stop disseminating pseudoscholarly crap! Unless you choose to repeat it again, anywhere, and in any form, I’ll be there to refute it. Also, gor has not been asking questions so you answer, because gor considers it below his professional dignity to acquire knowledge from a turkocentric denier by asking him questions. Gor was confronting your distortionist attempts to spread historical inaccuracies and juxtapose two unmatched events. Any attempt to belittle the fate of the Armenians or equalize it with an event that’s not internationally recognized as genocide or justify the race annihilation of the Armenians by distant wars lost by the Turks in which Armenians never figured, will be fiercely refuted by me based on historical facts, scholarly consensus, and common sense. Make no mistake.

  919. Boyajian

    you ask
    What bearing do you believe the events in Bulgaria have on Turkish culpability for the Armenian Genocide?
     answer:

    it depends on what you mean by “bearing”. Can you rephrase the question in some way? 

    then about the style of many Armenian participants: yes, my stand is one of tolerance regarding these Armenians. This is how many Armenians have related to their pain, they make verbal attacks on persons who disagree. You said it yourself some posts ago. I find this style problematic, but I wanted to tell Monastras that she should not back out from the discussion

    I both like and dislike questions about my choices and motives, like most people do. Needless to say from time to time I wonder why I am doing this, discussing in AW. But so far I feel it is good for my understanding.

    Maybe you should be bolder and say more aobut the suspicions you have regarding me. Then it will be easier for me to answer. Now you are a little enigmatic……..        

  920. ‘….it depends on what you mean by “bearing”.’

    “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.” Bill Clinton.

  921. Yes, Gayane…you are probably very correct with this comment:

    ‘fear of discovering they have closer ties to the same lineage they hate and despise…fear their souls will forever be doomed for unfair treatment of Armenians and for lying and denying… who knows??’
     

  922.  gor
    On august  15 I wrote: 
    At the same
    time I believe it is important to admit that there was a cycle of violence and
    that Turks – in revenge and fear – did to Armenians something that Bulgarians,
    Russians and Greeks had been doing to them, only on a much larger scale. To
    admit this must not make us deflect from the main aim which is to seek justice
    for the Armenians, but if challenged by Turks it must be admitted (see the
    Libaridian article I mentioned in earlier posts).
    Unquote
    And,gor,
    you claim that you never asked questions, so that it is mistaken that I should
    talk about answering your questions. Well, maybe I mistunderstood your
    sentences that ended with question marks? On sept 16 you wrote:
    Even if as
    a sign of utopia we admit that “Turks in Bulgaria suffered genocide”, how
    exactly that relates to the genocidal extermination of the Armenians, who were

    nowhere near the Balkans?
    Unquote
    Then on august 18
    you write
    In which
    instance, in your view, the “infliction on the group conditions of life
    calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part” was
    deliberate and in which instance the infliction was not deliberate, i.e.
    war-related?
    unquote
    Is this not
    a question?
    And I tried
    to answer.

  923. Karekin,      re: “let’s not forget that while Armenians were slaughtered mercilessly and in the millions, in the late 19th/early 20th C., it was not the first time in their 4000+ year history that this kind of tragedy befell them.”   Not true.  It was the first time in their 4000+ year history that this kind of tragedy—not casualties as a result of foreign invasions, wars, military conflicts, civil strives, or other man-made calamities, but centrally-planned and executed deliberate mass slaughter by their own government–befell the Armenians.  If you think you can support your false argument with any instance in Armenia’s history equivalent–in magnitude, scope, and purpose–to what was done to them by the Turks in 1894-96 and 1915-23, I’d be ready to lend my ears.

  924. Gayane,

    I have tried my best to communicate with you, even interjecting humorous anendotes to make things civil, trying not to be offended by your rude and unthinking insults and assaults! However, you have most definately crossed the line of all civility and morality when you brought up my personal family loss of my brother! That was a very horrible thing to say Gayane!!! I could never conceive of ever doing anything similar had you endured a similar situation (there are certain things that are universally understood to be OFF LIMITS, in any venue)! Words escape me at this time in my feelings about your comments. This is a site on an internet where people can (or at should be able to) exchange thoughts and opinions. Nothing more! It must be understood and kept within that context. For you to make light of my personal tragedy is extremely hurtful and unforgivable at this endeavour. I don’t know if your parents raised you this way or what, but you have got a lot of soul searching to do! The only words that I can come up with at this time is may God forgive you. This is something that you have now made very personal!   

  925. Ragnar, the meaning of the question is what does the fate of Bulgarian Turks have to do with the Turkish responsibility for the Armenian genocide.  What meaning does it bear or impart in the case of Turkish culpability for the Armenian genocide?

    You seem to think that it is important to point out that the Armenians weren’t the only ones who suffered, as if to imply that that is what you think we think.  (Another example of your negative opinion of Armenians)  That is not what I think!  I recognize that many people suffered as the Ottoman Empire disintegrated, including Turks.  Suffering happens everyday on this planet, unfortunately.  But the issue is not who suffered the most or the worst.  The point Armenians are concerned with is that the crime perpetrated against us was intended to eliminate us from our homeland and did! And that such a crime is considered so grave that most nations, including Turkey, consider it a crime against humanity.  All massacres are great tragedies but genocide is a special category that involves not just the intent to kill people, but the intent to eliminate a people in entirety.  This is a definitive feature in the case of the Armenians and a few other unlucky nations, that sets them apart from others, and by virtue of the genocide convention, calls for international condemnation and punishment.  So whether or not others suffered is not the question; but have the perpetrators of the Armenian genocide, or any genocide, faced their guilt and accepted their punishment?  No more, no less.  

    I hope that this helps explain why we react so negatively to the insertion of the fate of Bulgarian Turks into a discussion of Turkish culpability.  We’re not insensitive to the tragedy that befell others and support their right to seek restitution, just as we seek restitution that is due to us from Turkey.  

    You suggest that I be bolder.  I don’t think I am holding back.  I have told you before that I think you sometimes muddy the waters and create confusion over issues instead of clarity.  You hold a low opinion of the Armenians as they struggle for justice and you are overly solicitous to the feelings of those who have no feeling for us.  That doesn’t sit well with me. 

  926. when we allow Denialists to set the tone, this is what happens: somehow the Armenian Genocide discussion morphed into discussing the plight of Bulgarian Turks.
    How did that happen ?  What, if anything,  does their plight have to do with the AG ? Let Turks and Bulgarians debate it  amongst themselves all they want: Armenians had nothing to do with it: nothing, nada, zilch, bupkus….

    This is one of the subtle and sophisticated ways Turkophile agents and Denialists operate  –  to  dilute our focus and dissipate our  effort on fluff: engage  in trivia and endlessly discuss peripheral issues. Play word games. Entangle  the targets  in minutiae. Gradually, imperceptibly shift focus to their (Turk) concerns. Deflect and dissipate  any AG related discussion. Conflate the AG  with other human tragedies, no matter how unrelated. Use the platform to disseminate pro-Turkish views. 

  927. Robert.. i am getting really sick and tired of your accusations and whining and harassing…

    I have tried my best to communicate with you, even interjecting humorous anendotes to make things civil, trying not to be offended by your rude and unthinking insults and assaults!– really?  you interjected humorous anendotes to make things civil? really?? really!!! Really???? when was this???

    also, why don’t you provide me with rude and unthinking insults and assualts if you don’t mind.. i would like examples….by the way: the following words can’t be provided as examples because unfortunately they are simply facts… denialist, liar, manipulative, 

     It is absolutely frustrating to hear someone who has been nothing but rude, pushy and annoying.. even after many requests to stop harassing and addressing to me but kept pushing and poking and on top of that call me a liar and a denialist without strong facts…is telling me I crossed the line by providing proof to show what lies he spreads about me..????.

    LET THIS BE CLEAR TO YOU once and for all… all of us offered our sincere condolences when we heard your story and took your ” I am a change man” revelation seriously.. giving you the benefit of the doubt but your actions and your words not only did not serve justice but it got worst..  it was NOT about your personal story. it was YOU, and how you behaved… do YOU understand and appreciate the difference?

    My parents did raise me right.. thank you…they raised me not to lie or use manipulation to get what I want or through selfish wants and means to accuse others for my own shortcommings… my Lord Jesus Christ did guide me on the right path… at this point i don’t care how you twist my words to serve your purpose because I am done with this conversation and you need to stop your harassment once and for all..     

    have a nice day and do not continue with this matter unless you have a comment (not an Anti-Armenian that is) on a different topic…

    P.S. DONE Robert the Turk.. DONE
     
    Thank you

    Gayane  

  928. please be gentle Gayane.
    somebody has gone to la-la land.
    somebody is in a very fragile emotional state. 

    The Bizzaro World has come to AW. 

  929. Ragnar– i am getting really annoyed by your criticism of Armenians without any strong facts.. for you when someone expresses their opinions with strong back up constitutes:

    I was also in the beginning offended by the bad language and bad manners of some of the Armenian participants- your words Ragnar

    Why don’t you explain to us what you mean by bad language and bad manners… please provide specific bad language and bad manners and make sure you don’t CUT AND PASTE only the parts that will benefit your reasoning… we know how you love to do that to make the poster look like a monster and prove your lies about that person.. i have experienced it myself so don’t hate me for speaking out on this matter…

    It is very annoying to know that you are soooo apologetic toward the denialists on these pages but we hear  no peep out of you when these denialists  absolutely spread their hate and lies and BAD language toward all Armenians ALL … even examples were provided of specific BAD LANGUAGE that these denialists turks threw up on our pages but yet Armenians are the ones who behave bad and use bad language..

    I am sick and tired of this acccusations….  

    Ragnar believes Monastras is having a discussion with the Armenians but Ragnar has not realized that Monastras is having a discussion with him and not with the people who time over time posed questions for her to answer but to this day she is silent.. typical of Monastras and other denialists…

    Gayane      

  930. Ragnar- everyone knows that Gor was not the one who strated this ridiculeous comparions of BT’s fate to what happened to Armenians.. BT’s fate is absolutely absurd and you try your hardest to prove us wrong.. Gor did an absolutely excellent job proving that your reasonings are just inaccurate and wrong..

    I just don’t understand the purpose of you providing posts that Gor had questions in it..Gor had to ask you questions to show how wrong you are about your reasonings.. the posts you copied and pasted have no bearing what is being addressed here.. YOU are using BT’s example to sway the scale … it is not working sir.. no one is going to buy that weak comparison…give it up…

    Thank you

    Gayane      

  931. Boyajian,

    what you write about the suffering of others than Armenians I agree with.  If I say “you have committed a wrong against me, any answer that “the same wrong was committed towards me by somebody else” is irrelevant. I made this point in discusiions with Turks innumerable times. Dont start talking about Bulgaria when I ask abut 1915, I say. Lets stick to 1915.
      
    Regarding cupability, that is – I do one of the qualifications I believe is needed – whether the ittihadists were morally and/or criminally responsible for deaths of Armenians in 1915, the fact of certain happenings more than 30 years before in Bulgaria can not have any influence.
      
    However if one asks why did they do it, it is obvious that the events of 1864 in Caucasus,1877-8 and 1912-13 have explanatory value. See my post to gor above.

    If somebody says, on the other hand, that “Armenians were subject to genocide something no other group at the time was, and this is confirmed by the ICTJ in 2002”, then I believe that this is mistaken, because according to the reasoning of ICTJ one might hold that all groups suffered genocide. For ICTJ it suffices that at least some of the perpetrators  knew that the CONSEQUENCES  of their action would be the destruction, in whole or in part, as such, of a protected group. If we add here as a condition that ICTJ obviously talks about subgroups (“The Armenians in Eastern Anatolia”) it will be even easier to hold that many Ottoman groups were subjected to genocide. ICTJ also talk about the naming of events as genocide, saying that it is reasonable to call the “events, collectively speaking” as genocide for the reasons outlined above. To me it is not clear how they delimitate and define the expression “Collectively speaking”. Anyhow it is impossible to deny that e.g. the slaughtering of Turks, men, women and children in the Morea in the spring of 1821 was genocide. All withoiut exception were slaughtered unless they flet, men, women children. The Greeks even had a song they used at the time: “No Turk shall remain in the Morea, and not in the whole world”. If this is not genocidal intent, I dont know……

    Imagine what this did to the Turkish perception of what methods were used and were tro be used in given circumstances…..

     
    What I am critical of is also the style of debate of SOME Armenians, not all. Abusive and denigrating language is used, and there seems to be an understood agreement that Armenian participants may  discuss other participants in a negative way while the same people who are referred to may read this. This also happened to me in the WATS listserve. I get more curious than angry because this is completely inadmissible ion any normal setting. Imagine we are a group of parents gathered in a school, or employees from an appartment in a factory, and there is disagreement, and some of those present start to talk among themselves characterising other people present in a negative way. This is unheard of!!

             

  932. boyajian

    you write: I hope that this helps explain why we react so negatively to the insertion of the fate of Bulgarian Turks into a discussion of Turkish culpability.

    comment: it was not a discussion of ittihadist culpability. I was a discussion of the causes of the ittihadist harsh actions, as far as I remember.  See the reference to my note of August 15 above, given in the post to gor above. I never introduced, or meant to introduce events of 1877 in a debate on itrtihadist culpability.

    I say MEANT because I see that sometimes my words are interpreted in another way. When I talk about CAUSES of some people hear it as providing EXCUSES for conduct. But these are two different things. A crime is a crime even if you act prompted by certain understandable sentiments. A kurdish aquaintance of mine was sentenced to prison for using a knife in a case of clear self defense. He might only have threatened, but chose to use the knife.

    But the catastrophes – and genocides –  lived by the Turks probably have a place in any prolonged discussion between Armenians and Turks on the Armenian genocide or “alleged genocide” as Turks prefer to say. 

    Suppose Turks admit that the policicy in 1915 was genocide but then say that “our grandparents did this because they were afraid that the same thing that happened in bulgaria would repeat itself in Eastern Anatolia”, would you insist that “they had abvsolutely nothing to be afraid of, what they did was done out of pure evil!”.

    Elif Safak wrote very courageously about the Armenian Genocide for a Turkish public some years ago. But then she had some discussions with Armenians, if I am not mistaken, and came back to the Turkish Daily News with and article with the title “What about the murdered Turks?” (as far as I remember this was the title).

    This is what many Turks experience: they admitt to the great suffering of the Armenians, maybe even genocide, but when they want to say a word abvout their own suuffering, they are asked to shut up.   

    To my mind the Turks must start to make admissions and reparations, and once they have done this they should be heard about the experiences which prompted the policies of the ittihadists.   But this has to do with how we debate with and influence people, it has no bearing on the question of WHAT happened in 1915-16, as distinct from WHY it happened. 

       
       

       

         

     

  933. This article’s thread of comments is above the 1000 mark now & I’ve been following it almost from the 1st day & the most abusive,hurtful  description/comment was about my massacred ancestors…’disposed’…
    Even with this most abusive & denigrating language,we, very politely informed the author how hurt we were… I could have been very abusive & denigrating but refused to allow myself to hit below the belt.Commentators should understand  & appreciate it that we do get very badly hurt when ugly remarks are made about our innocent massacred ancestors.

  934. Vtiger
    I am really sorry for the words “disposed of…”. I was actually not thinking of the connotations of such a term. I was also not quite aware of the connotations. English is not my first language. I understand that you are hurt and if you want to withdraw from the discussion. Yes, we have had more than 1.000 posts. In a way this is not surprising, the theme is very important and there is no immediate agreement.   

  935. So to clear things up, Ragnar, you discuss the fate of Bulgarian Turks to highlight the backdrop to the mindset that Turks had when they decided “Armenians must go.”  You don’t consider it an excuse for what they did, but you understand how what happened to them earlier, influenced their decisions toward Armenians.  Right?

    It is not that Turks must ‘shut up’ about their own suffering.  It is that their suffering is a separate issue when discussing their responsibility to the Armenians for the genocide. As Gor said, let them bring their grievances to Bulgarians, if they have a case, not to the Armenian question.   Pairing the two is interpreted as a way of diminishing the Armenian claim.  

    There is one way I can accept the juxtaposition:  If Turks say, “We did a terrible thing when we punished all Armenians for the previous suffering and hate imposed on us by many others.  It was a very dark time for Turks and our leadership was acting out of revenge and fear and hate.   THEY WERE WRONG.  WE APOLOGIZE.   WE WANT TO MAKE THINGS RIGHT.  But please don’t forget that we are humans, too, and that we suffered, too, and our suffering contributed to our mistreatment of you in return.”
    This would be taking ownership of guilt.  However satisfying such a statement might be to Armenians, it still falls short.  It still does not excuse the Pan-turkic yearnings that were part of the CUP decision to eliminate the Armenian presence in Asia Minor, nor does it excuse the Pan-turkic yearnings expressed by closing borders today and declaring that Turkey and Azerbaijan are ‘one nation in two states.’  Not to mention the Neo-Ottomanism of Erdogan and Davutoglu.  What confidence that anything has changed can come from such words and actions?

    I still think that you do not see the issue clearly enough from the Armenian perspective and that hinders your ability to be a useful mediator for this conflict.  You hear ‘impolite words’ from Armenians instead of indignation, determination to survive, and quest for justice, despite the wishes of our enemies.  I am not saying that I always agree with the way some of my compatriots choose their words, but I do understand the ‘backdrop’, just as you understand the ‘backdrop’ for the Turks.  You don’t seem to like Armenian boldness, if I may be so bold…  
     

  936. Ragnar,please understand that the Armenian Genocide subject is still a very volatile,tender & emotional subject with my generation.There isn’t a single day that we do not think or are not reminded of it.We grew up with the stories of the atrocities,we grew up with the survvivors…we are the sons & daughters of those survivors who have lost everything.My grandmother wanted to die to forget…

  937. Thank you VTiger for place the right perspective on the discussion.  ‘Hurt feelings’ are an important element in this conflict, one that seems to be disposed of easily and forgotten by Turks and Turkophiles.

  938. ‘English is not my first language.’
    Lame excuse: author of that phrase has publicly claimed “Excellent” knowledge of the English language. The expression containing the word  ‘disposed of’  was deliberate – it was no accident. It was a “tell”. Author slipped and showed  what he truly thought of our exterminated ancestors. An inadvertently honest Turkophile.

    ‘I understand that you are hurt and if you want to withdraw from the discussion.’ (addressing VTiger).

    No, YOU WITHDRAW, Mr. Naess.  ArmenianWeekly is Armenian; VTiger is Armenian, so am I. You, a Norwegian, a foreigner don’t come here and tell another Armenian to withdraw from our own place. Nobody invited you. You withdraw. Go away.

    Typical Turkophile behaviour: you insert yourself in our midst, and now you tell one of us Armenians to go away. Everything belongs to Turks. Armenians – get out.

     

  939. Ragnar says.. English is not his first language but he write very well with meticuleous and very thought out words and descriptions of Bulguarians, Turks, and how Armenians are misbehaving and using bad language..

    I am still waiting on Ragnar to give us examples of BAD language and BAD manner… and I am still waiting on Ragnar to comment on as to WHY in the heck is he being silent on all those denialists who used BAD LANGAUGE and BAD MANNERS… but he will snap real quick on comments that were well justified and if you ask anyone would not considered bad language or bad manners… still waiting Ragnar…

    Again your argument about BTs are absolutely irrelevant… case closed…

    Gayane

  940. True that Avery jan.. just don’t know why i attract such denialists… and yes Bizzaro world indeed has come to AW…

    You hit the bull’s eye Avery jan…
    “when we allow Denialists to set the tone, this is what happens: somehow the Armenian Genocide discussion morphed into discussing the plight of Bulgarian Turks
    that is for sure”
    .. i am thankful to Gor (i am waiting for his response as well to Ragnar’s recent nonsense comments) who did an absolutely brilliant job proving Ragnar wrong but yet Ragnar keeps pushing his ridiculeous arguments. this man has an answer for everything.. regardless how stupid they are…. what is wrong with this man????

    Ragnar says…..

    “Suppose Turks admit that the policicy in 1915 was genocide but then say that “our grandparents did this because they were afraid that the same thing that happened in bulgaria would repeat itself in Eastern Anatolia”, would you insist that “they had abvsolutely nothing to be afraid of, what they did was done out of pure evil!”.”

    Avery said it very well and Ragnar please pay attention to this:
    “Let Turks and Bulgarians debate it amongst themselves all they want: Armenians had nothing to do with it: nothing, nada, zilch, bupkus….”

  941. Look Ragnar…there is absolutely NO comparison of anything that happened to Turks over the last 1000 years and what happened to the Armenians who were, by the way, living under their rule, their thumb, their guns! In this, I am absolutely with the rest of my Armenian commentators. Do you not realize that from the day Armenians fell under Seljuk domination, they had no government, no army, no protection, no rights to act on their own. They were not a country, nor a fighting force. They were the wholely owned subjects of an empire. Big, big difference, my friend, and one that can’t be ignored. Being a subject people is vastly different from being the rulers, sitting in a palace, lording over troops, janisseries, a navy, etc. To equate what happened to Armenians, who were living UNDER the rule and laws of the Ottoman Empire, to what happened to those who either ruled or were protected by virtue of ethnic affiliation to those rulers is a false equivilancy. Those rulers entered treaties with other goverments, they waged wars, they levied taxes, they determined how people – especially the minorities – lived their lives. In othe words, the Armenians and others who lived under their umbrella were at their mercy, plus they had the power of an empire. It was not the other way around. They were a suspicious lot, who murdered even their own brothers to stay on the throne. Nothing that Armenians did along the way could remotely come close to their level of power and ruthlessness, because Armenians did not have the means to muster the forces of an entire empire. Therein lies the difference, and the difference you continually mention seems to smack of lies, because what you are suggesting was impossible on any level. Advocating for rights and even autonomy, and then self-defense are nowhere near the level of destruction, massacre and genocide committed by the state. Their crimes were designed to be a final solution. Please don’t try to minimize them by attempting to create a false equivilancy. It doesn’t hold water.

  942. ragnar naess, I thought you said it was me who was reluctant to stop the discussion of the fate of the BTs, yet we see that you extensively commented on the subject in not one but two posts addressed to Boyajian. Because you did it again, here I am to refute your distortions.

    “[…] if one asks why [Ittihadists] did it [brought deaths upon the Armenians], it is obvious that the events of 1864 in Caucasus, 1877-8 and 1912-13 have explanatory value.” It’s absolutely not obvious that the three isolated events had any explanatory value for the mass extermination of the Armenians for one simple reason: in none of those three wars Armenians have figured or have been remotely associated with or supportive of any warring party.

    “If somebody says that ‘Armenians were subject to genocide something no other group at the time was and this is confirmed by the ICTJ, then this is mistaken, because according to the reasoning of ICTJ one might hold that all groups suffered genocide.” Whatever one might hold and whatever the ICTJ actually recognized are two divergently different things. If genocide were applicable to all groups involved in war actions, then we’d have hundreds of resolutions. But they are just a few, because the ICTJ tends to distinguish between atrocities inflicted by one warring party upon the civilian population of the other during a war and the deliberate annihilation of a group by its own government with the intent of total physical elimination.

    “[…] it is impossible to deny that the slaughtering of Turks in the Morea in the spring of 1821 was genocide. All without exception were slaughtered unless they fled, men, women, children. The Greeks even had a song: ‘No Turk shall remain in the Morea, and not in the whole world. If this is not genocidal intent, I don’t know…” Oh, now you effectively switch from the Russo-Turkish war to the Greek war of independence? You may want to do your homework well, because before the Greeks had this song, masses of Greeks were savagely slaughtered by the Turks during the centuries of Ottoman occupation. Greeks might have sung a song, but Turks have played football with the heads of decapitated Greeks. Greeks might have been driven by a noble cause of freeing their nation from Turkish occupiers, while Turks would joyfully nudge each other in the city squares to get a spot with better view when Greek archbishops and dignitaries were hung.

    “Suppose Turks admit that the policy in 1915 was genocide but then say that ‘our grandparents did this because they were afraid that the same thing that happened in Bulgaria would repeat itself in Eastern Anatolia’, would you insist that ‘they had absolutely nothing to be afraid of, what they did was done out of pure evil!’.” I would, over and over again. The ‘fear’ for the ‘same thing’ that happened in Bulgaria to repeat itself in Eastern Anatolia is a cheap Turkish defense against international condemnation of their barbarism against Armenians. Turks knew too well that Ottoman Armenians were not at all as nationally motivated, tidily organized, militarily equipped, territorially centralized, and politically supported as the Bulgarian freedom-fighters. Even geographically, Bulgarians had an advantage being positioned in the European landmass, in contrast to the Armenians dispersed throughout Eastern Anatolia. The genocidal destruction of the Armenians was done out of pure evil, that is: to remove the Armenians from what had been their ancestral homeland in order to eliminate a perceived threat to the war against Russia; to punish Armenians for national liberation aspirations of their few revolutionaries which the Ittihadists aggrandized as being rebellious, and, most importantly, to realize their ambitions to create a pan‐Turkic space that would stretch from Anatolia through the Caucasus to Central Asia. In no way did the Armenians represent a threat, but even if they did, does ‘being afraid’ of someone or something justify mass slaughters? The U.S. government was afraid of Osama ben Laden, did they slaughter their Arab American citizens in fear? What kind of sick mentality is this?

  943. karekin
    you write:
    Look Ragnar…there is absolutely NO comparison of anything that happened to Turks over the last 1000 years and what happened to the Armenians who were, by the way, living under their rule, their thumb, their guns! In this, I am absolutely with the rest of my Armenian commentators.
    comment:
    the question is not one of comparison – I believe you intend to say that I assert that the events are equal, and they are not because in comparison the Armenian catastrophy was much worse than the one who happened to the Turks in Bulgaria. It is a case of APPLYING a certain rationale, a way of arguing for a case of genocide, the way ICTJ argues for the existence of genocide, amd it may be applied to many other events, and I have explained why. – I have repated this many times but I try again. To apply a concept to A and B is not the same thing as saying that A and B are equal, except in according to certain specific criteria. For example, according to certain criteria an action may be a theft. But one theft may be a theft of 5 USD another theft of 1.000 USD. Both are thefts, but they are not equal.
    In the same way: what Gunayesu in Rwanda – the first person convicted of genocide according to the convention -did, was genocide, but compared to what Höss did in Auschwitz the loss of life was miniscule. But both actions were instances of genocide.
    The difference is one between saying that “A is equal to B” and “A and B are examples of the same TYPE of pehonomenon”. So I am not talking about “comparison” understood in the sense that things you compare are more or less similar. I am talking about something else. I hope this made it clearer, because now I wait for the answer of Monastras, if it ever comes.

  944. Boyajian makes a valid point, ragnar naess, worth contemplating, because it relates to the modern times, not the times of national liberation struggles against Turkish occupiers in the Balkans or elsewhere. Are the closed borders with, imposition of the blockade on, and refusal to establish diplomatic relations with Armenia a manifestation of ‘fear’ that Turks have for the ‘same thing’ that happened to them in Bulgaria to repeat itself in the South Caucasus? Does the 73 million-strong country that has vibrant economy and the largest army in Europe ‘fear’ a newly-independent, genocide-stricken and thus reduced in population, country so they continue their hostile acts?

  945. BRAVO Gor jan.. BRAVO.. absolutely excellent post…

    Lets see how Ragnar is going to slither himself out of this one when there are very strong, straight forward facts… i have a feeling he is going to come up with his own interpretations and create a Ragnar world reasons.. can’t wait…

    Gayane

  946. You’re right, Ragnar, there is no comparison. Anatolian Armenians were not imported into the region by a foreign ruling force, they had always been there, in fact, for at least 3000 years before the arrival of any Turks. Bulgarian Turks were not native to that region, but planted there by various sultans over time as seeds of conquest, which eventually took root, but still – they were not native in an historical sense of the word. The other lack of comparison is that there was no outright mass murder in Bulgaria. Yes, there was ethnic cleansing and forced emigration, but that does not compare to driving an entire ethnic group into a desert, without food, water or sustenance, at the end of a bayonnet. You’re the one who seems to be drawing parallels, when you’re right…there are none. Turks can argue their point with Bulgaria…no problem. It doesn’t concern Armenians, except in the sense that alot of those emigres needed a place to live and opening up space in Anatolia by eliminating Armenians probably made sense to someone in power. Being ‘Turks’, whether real or converted, they were going to get favorable treatment in the empire, as opposed to native born, indigenous Armenians, who always got shafted by the ruling authorities, who acted with arrogance and superiority to their subjects.

  947. ragnar naess, and I was confronting distortions and absurd equalization, or variations thereof, of unmatched historical events that you disseminate.

    Here you go again: “in comparison the Armenian catastrophe was much worse than the one who happened to the Turks in Bulgaria.” There can be no comparison per se between genocide and non-genocide, because an act directed at the deliberate destruction of a people as a race by their own government and an act of retaliation and an incidence of civilian loss of life at war cannot be compared and thus categorized as ‘bad and worse’. This is evident in your own statement: “what Gunayesu in Rwanda–the first person convicted of genocide according to the convention—did, was genocide, but compared to what Höss did in Auschwitz the loss of life was miniscule. But both actions were instances of genocide.” Yes, both actions were instances of genocide. Had you stated that in terms of figures the genocide of the Jews was worse than the genocide of the Armenians, I’d accept this comparison in numerical sense only, but to compare genocide with a retaliation for earlier murders and a war episode with civilian deaths is to position a peripheral issue of non-genocidal nature next to the internationally recognized and legally confirmed case of genocide.

    Playing word games, such as ‘these events were not equal, but a certain rationale may be applied to them’ won’t work, because no ‘certain rationale’ was ever applied to events other than genocides by a specialized international organization or judicial body. ‘May be applied’ and actually ‘applied’ are two diversely different notions. Retaliation against earlier atrocities committed by the Turks and wartime atrocities they suffered being the civilian component of a belligerent party were not and cannot be applied the same criteria that the ICTJ, as they were in the case of the Armenian genocide, because there was no manifest pattern of similar conduct directed against BTs and, most importantly, retaliations and casualties at war possessed no requisite genocidal intent.

    I fully agree with Avery that these are subtle and devious ways Turkophile agents employ to endlessly discuss peripheral issues and to conflate the Armenian genocide with other—unrelated, unmatched, and unrecognized as genocides—human tragedies. I believe these cheap denialist innuendos must be rebuffed—based on factual material, scholarly consensus, and common sense—as long as they’re being repeated.

  948. Unfortunately Ragnar, I believe, you have bought a cart full of manure from the revisionists. Turkish obfuscation of the facts is confusing you. There is no doubt in my mind that the CUP had a vision of a Pan-Turkic federation in mind when they concocted their solution for the Armenian problem. I am not discounting the revenge born of fear of what happened in other regions theory, nor am I discounting the desire to quash the Armenian rebellious minority and the Russian sympathizers. These elements were there and they provided the perfect ‘excuse’ to carry out the necessary removal of the Armenians to open the way for an eastern expansion and merging with Caucasus Turks. (see note)

    As you pointed out, the necessary money to provide assistance to Armenians on their ‘relocation’ was never made. The intent to peacefully and safely relocate was never there. The idea was to push out the Armenians and to allow enough upheaval (mayhem, starvation, massacre and destruction) to ensure they would not return. Or if they did, their numbers would be so greatly diminished as to pose no threat. The end result was the genocide of the Armenians as we all know.

    You are convinced that Armenians have to do a better job of convincing Turks, who are ignorant of the truth, of our side of the story. The facts are obvious and many intelligent, fair-minded Turks have reviewed them and agree with the IAGS and some 40 governments around the world. A simple survey of the history of the region and the continuous presence of Armenians in the region throughout history up until 1915 compared to the number of Armenians in the eastern region following 1915 should be enough to convince even the most inexperienced researcher that a catastrophic event, a crime against humanity, a genocide, caused what no previous onslaught of invasions could: the elimination of the Armenians from their 4000 year old homeland. Is Turkey liable for this? Absolutely!

    Note: (If you doubt this just look at the reemergence of Pan-Turkic and Turkocentric aspirations in Turkey’s policies toward border closing with Armenia in support of Azerbaijan. What went underground in the secularism of the Kemalists is resurfacing in the Islamist leaning policies of Erdogan and the neo-Ottomanism of Davutoglu. Beware of Turkish empire re-building. )

  949. Boyajian jan- great post.. apres…

    Gor jan- xosq chka…

    Ragnar- no comment

    Monastras- still missing n action…

    Gayane

  950. ‘Unfortunately Ragnar, I believe, you have bought a cart full of manure from the revisionists.’
    Sorry Boyajian, you are too nice: He is not on the buying side of the transaction; he is the one peddling the cart full of manure, offering it for sale to unsuspecting passerby. It’s covered with a few nice apples here and there, but the cart it is full of pure, unadulterated manure
     
     
    ‘Turkish obfuscation of the facts is confusing you.’
    Sorry again  Boyajian: Ragnar is a Norwegian by birth, but he is a Turk by choice. He has made no secret of his affinity to Turks, and his posts that attempt to dilute and trivialize the AG;  conflate it with other unrelated atrocities;  and his valuation of our exterminated ancestors as no more than detritus, are proof enough for me that he is not  being confused by Turkish obfuscations: he is an originator and  purveyor of Turkish obfuscation, albeit one  who is  far more sophisticated and skilled  than  most. 

  951. Exactly Avery jan… you summed it up very well..he is just that…

    he is an originator and  purveyor of Turkish obfuscation, albeit one  who is  far more sophisticated and skilled  than  most.

    Also, i also noticed that bold and italics were gone.. but it is there…:) i am happy..

  952. “I am not discounting the revenge born of fear of what happened in other regions theory, nor am I discounting the desire to quash the Armenian rebellious minority and the Russian sympathizers. These elements were there and they provided the perfect ‘excuse’ to carry out the necessary removal of the Armenians […].”
     
    Boyajian,       your point is understood and taken in general, but I’m a bit uncomfortable with the usage of the words ‘revenge’, ‘rebellious’, and ‘fear’ from the semantic point of view, even as they are used in the contest of theory.  Oxford English Dictionary defines ‘revenge’ as ‘the action of inflicting hurt or harm on someone for an injury or wrong suffered at their hands.’  What injuries or wrongs did the Turks suffer at the hands of the Armenians? Except for occasional—and inevitable in a multiethnic empire—interethnic or intercommunal clashes ,in which both or several ethnicities suffered, what major injuries did the Armenians ever inflict on the Turks?  The same dictionary defines ‘rebellious’ as ‘showing a desire to resist authority, control, or convention’. When did the Armenians ever resist authority understood as rebellion? Resistances in Adana, Van, etc. were in response to Turkish atrocities against the Armenians, not their spontaneous desire to resist authority. Even the Van resistance, which was provoked by the Turks in the form of arrests and killing of local Armenians, took place some time after the authorities started forced deportations of Armenians in Cilicia.  As for ‘fear’, no evidence suggets that Turks actually ‘feared’ Armenians, because, essentially, there was nothing to fear of. As I demonstrated in my previous post to professor naess, Turks were well aware of the fact that Armenians were not at all as motivated, organized, armed, conveniently located, or politically savvy as freedom-fighters in other regions. The only fear that Turks could have had before 1915 was for the possible Russian advances via mostly Armenian-populated provinces, not from Armenians per se. But already in 1915 and afterwards Russians clearly were withdrawing from the Caucasus fronts.   The removal and mass physical extermination of the Armenians was done out of pure evil, that is, as you correctly stated: to open the way for a pan-Turkic eastern expansion and merging with Caucasus and Central Asian Turks.

  953. I travelled the whole day yesterday so I had no chance to answer. Needless to say I am not much impressed by your arguments. But I am not going to repeat them. Boyajian asked me about the bulgarian case, gor, so I just answered her. Go back and check. And if you start using expressions like manure, boyajian, you will easily get manure back. But you will not influence anybody, only have listeners among those already converted

  954. Ragnar Naess, I see that you were unhappy with my choice of words.  Just my way of saying that I think you have bought into some flimsy excuses and deflections that are intended to spare Turkey from responsibility for the crime of genocide.  

    I know your close Turkish affliations and loyalties make condemnation difficult for you.  Perhaps it will help you to remember that the present day average Turkish citizen is not being condemned, but the Ottoman Turk and CUP government and today’s Turkish government’s genocide deniers….those who know the truth and refuse to face the consequences.    Should this not be condemned?  

    I have to say that I find it contradictory that you are so easily offended by ‘impolite’ comments or debate styles and yet so understanding and tolerant of blatant genocide denial.   

     

  955. Of coures you are not much impressed Ragnar because there is nothing else you can say to prove anything said to your lame arguments…

    were you traveling for business or pleasure??? i hope you were giving lectures.. i am afraid very afraid every time you say you were traveling because i simply don’t want you go around and spreading inaccurate information.. not good for the cause…  

    Unfortunately Boyajian said it exactly how it is and I admire her for it… even though she was still very polite about it.. and you threatening manure back is very “loser” type of a response.. you mean you have not spread manure since you started this whole discussion?? hmmm …  

  956. Gayane
    you hold that I am an originator of Turkish obfuscation. Is this an expression you would use in any ordinary debate in school or at the working place. (I have no question mark on this PC here in Russia, where I am). And why Turkish, since I am norwegian. Whishing you a good day…..
    gor
    it will take me some time to go into the question of Armenian mortality. there was a debate in the late 90ies on the analysis of McCarthy, in which it was criticised.
    Monastras
    have you left us?(there I found the question mark!)
      

  957. gayane
    Sorry, but if  Boyajian initiated the use of the ‘manure’ expression, isnt this also a ‘loser’ response? 
    Boyajian
    no, I intend no excuses for Turkey. How on earth do you get this idea? As I repeated many times, the suffering of others is no excuse for what happened in 1915. the problem is however if Armenians imitate the Jews and insist in their insistence on their own exclusive suffering, restricting the label genocide beyond what is reasonable. But then you do not want to comment on this according to any normal argumentation. By the way, none of you have yet commented on the fate of the Circassians in 1864: 400.000 dead, 1.2 million driven out from their ancestral home. There were not even any conspicuous exceptions like the Armenians of Istanbul…… Are you serving the Armenian cause well by manipulating your definirtions of genocide so that you can claim exclusivist (or exclusivist no 2) access to victimhood? Honestly speaking, to raise the issue of one’s own catastrophy is one thing,  and in the face of denial it is completely legitimate, to belittle the catastrophies of others is something else…
    Monastras
    I am starting to give you up. are you there? If you are delving into the background of Halacoglu’s inadvertent  documentation of the ittihadists’ low priority on Armenians’ lives, it is good. But please tell us that you are still with us and that an answer is forthcoming 

  958. ragnar naess,      take as much time as needed to look into the question of Armenian mortality. I cited several authors who criticized McCarthy for his methods of computation and for undercounting the pre-war Armenian population and overcounting the survivors. McCarthy’s numbers of Armenian mortality are dubious not least because they’re derived from Ottoman records by applying correction values. Several accounts arguing that the number of Armenian victims was much greater than McCarthy’s 850,000 were also cited.  When looking into the question of Armenian mortality one may also look into the question of appropriateness of using the verb ‘died’ in place of ‘were murdered’ or at least ‘lost lives’.  One may also need to settle on the dates of Turkish genocidal policies by looking into the apparent sequence: Hamidian massacres—Adana massacres—genocide in Eastern Anatolia—massacres of Smyrna.  You may also look into the question as to why an author, whom you consider the hub of the universe, uses ‘ethnic cleansing’ and not ‘genocide’ in the title and content of his account Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821-1922.
     
    P.S.   It concerns me least of all in my life whether or not you may be impressed by my arguments. Essentially, they’re not mine, but the ICTJ’s that established that Turkish atrocities constituted genocide, whereas ‘genocide’ against BTs is just a figment of your imagination and, of course, your general turkophilic proclivity.

  959. Boyajian,

    I am astonished to see how ragnar has been able to “tame” you. I have always admired your ability to carry out analysis and carry on a civilized dialogue. However, lately you seem to be mostly worried about making the guy happy. Why?

    After using words like “disposed of” and “inbred” in relation to us and our murdered ancestors, he has the nerve to get back to you and criticize your language. And look at how high he thinks he stands.

    After shamelessly twisting Mshetsi’s words and presenting them in a Turkish forum (I am sure you remember it), this cheap, two-faced sell-out has the nerve to get back here and preach you, Gor, Avery, Gayane, and others on how to carry on a dialogue. He has the nerve to suggest VTiger to leave the discussion.

    He announced that he was going to transfer his “valuable” activities to Turkish forums. And for a while he didn’t dare utter another word here because even an idiot would realize how despised he was after such dishonorable conduct. It didn’t take him long though to grab an opportunity and get back in full force. Not only he has been able to fully recover but he manages to pull your leg quite successfully. And you respond to it so well. But who am I to tell you what to do?

     

  960. Ragnar– I simply agreed with my friend beautifully put together.. i wish i was as skilled as Avery.. unfortunately I am not (you see the difference Ragnar??? I am being honest about myself and not trying to look or sound someone I am not.. it would be so much better if you finally realize that and admit it to yourself about yourself as well)…Ragnar, unfortunately I belive you are a pure deniar in a very sophisticated way…absolutely….. I have always said this and will continue to say this.. I don’t trust your intentions are genuine and I don’t believe YOU believe that there WAS a horrible Genocide that befell upon the Armenian people peretrated by the Turkish Ottoman Govt…

    And stop calling for Monastras… i have already informed you that she does this all the time… it is her signature.. unless her go to person has not had time to give her the answers she is looking for.. but from the past experience she would say something VERY Anti-Armenian and then dissapear and not facing up to the questions directed to her.. (just my own observation here)..so I would stop calling for her… i understand you need to prove to us that Turk denialists are worth discussing this issue with but as you can see, it is impossible with their attitude, demeanor and aggression toward us and ORDINARY ARMENIANS… see the difference right? Armenians DO NOT attack or show aggression/frustration toward ordinary Turks.. but these deniars absolutely do…sad.. truly sad…

    Russia huh??? Are you giving a lecture?? If so, on what if I may be so blunt and nosy?

    Thank you

    Gayane     

  961. Ragnar,

    I answered all your questions in my previous post. You match your questions with my answers if you can not find any answer let me know but I doubt you will find any. I only haven’t answered Boyajian. Because I couldn’t get a chance to answer first after i thought it is too late. Boyajian, I hope you didn’t find my statement offensive as I only didn’t mention the Armenians but the Turks as well. If you look at your rich literature about the Turks. You will find how the Armenians boasted to disposed of the Turks. “How the mountains swarmed with Armenian irregulars”(Atamian, The Armenian Community,pp.100,200.).How the Armenian resistance movement in the summer of 1915 tied down five Turkish divisions and tens of thousands of Kurds, who therefore were not able to fight the Russians on the Caucasus front.(Pastermadjian,Bank ottoman,pp.27-28). I think you should look no further but Armenian writers.

  962. Gor
    your buddy Akcam also put the numbers at 800.000. I think you aren’t doing your homework(Akcam, a shameful act, P. 202) 

  963. To Gor:
    I’m glad you understand my point in general.  I understand and accept your semantic clarifications.

  964. Seriously Gina?  I really don’t see it that way, but since you aren’t the only one who has suggested that I have lost my punch, I will have to give your comments some thought.   Many here put him through the shredder, while others provide excellent analysis and debate.   I join in where it feels right for me.  Other times, I just let out the rope.   Battle fatigue?  Maybe you’re right…

  965. monastras
    I cannot see that you have commented on the money allotted by IAMM for Armenians compared to money allotted to muhacirs

  966. ‘Gayane
    you hold that I am an originator of Turkish obfuscation.’ 
    Gayane had nothing to do with that phrase. She just pasted from what I had posted in my comment. 

    Boyajian wrote ‘Turkish obfuscation of the facts is confusing you.’ 
    And then I wrote:  ‘he is an originator and  purveyor of Turkish obfuscation,’ 
    I was referring to you Mr. Naess. 
    And you are.
     

  967. Ragnar, please, are you now discussing me with Gayane and referring to me as a loser? Speaking about me, instead of to me?   I thought you frowned on this practice.  Its okay.  I can take it.   But while you focus on style and word choice you are barely responding to my comments. 

    And just as we get off the BT train you bring up the Circassians!   Are you serious?   And you slam the Armenians and the Jews at the same time.  Tsk, tsk!  What has you so fired up?  

    Yes, Armenians are not the only ones who suffered.  We never claimed to be.  We simply fight for our rights.  Let Circassians and Bulgarian Turks do the same if they choose.  If they have a just claim, let them be heard and compensated.   But don’t muddy the waters when we are discussing Turkish culpability by bringing up unrelated or tangentially related catastrophes.  It only serves as a distraction & doesn’t make things clearer.  You have a bad habit of doing this, and then being surprised that Armenians accuse you of diluting their cause, and they question your motives.  

    Honestly, how do you not see this?  Every time the topic of justice is raised you side track the thread to Turkish suffering elsewhere and accuse us of insensitivity to the suffering of others. Just because Armenians focus on the Armenian cause in an Armenian online newspaper where we can read the latest developments in the Armenian cause, doesn’t mean we are oblivious to others.  It means that  we seek out a place where we can express and explore our thoughts and feelings about a very important matter to us.   If you are so  interested in social justice, how can you not see that pandering to Turkish sensitivities about charges of being responsible for genocide of the Ottoman Armenians, only prolongs the time until justice is served.  

    You want Turks and Armenians to talk to each other but you want us to diminish our truth in order to make it more palatable to queasy Turks.  However, as I have said, plenty of Turks have already been brave enough to acknowledge the truth without sugar-coating.   And they marched in support of Hrant Dink.  I believe the average Turk is ready to hear the truth but it is their genocide denying government that creates a social atmosphere that makes dealing with this dark history very ‘politically incorrect.’  Obviously this atmosphere has to change, but the most efficient way is not through random conversations between Turks and Armenians.  It is through exerting pressure on the Turkish government through  international condemnation and/or recognition of Turkish responsibility for the genocide, in court proceedings, in academic symposiums, and in film and other media.

    I like the dialogue you are attempting with Monastras by raising challenging questions.  Is this what you are all about: raising challenging questions to both sides that make each side question their established beliefs?  For what purpose?  Do you honestly not believe enough is already known to show Turkish culpability or do you just like fueling debate?  

  968. ‘Gor your buddy Akcam also put the numbers at 800.000. I think you aren’t doing your homework(Akcam, a shameful act, P. 202) ‘

    Not too long ago Ms. Monstras wrote this:
    {‘Calling the issue that was fabricated by the defeated armenians as the Armenian Genocide is an insult to the memories of the Jewish victims of the holocaust’ (Monastras, posted @Hurriyet)}
     
    Gor’s ‘buddy’ Mr. Taner Akçam is one of the first Turkish academics to acknowledge and openly discuss the Armenian Genocide.
     

    Since Mr. Akcam classifies  that which Ms. Monastras calls  fabrication the Armenian Genocide, and since apparently Ms. Monastras has great respect for Mr. Akcam’s research – given that she cites the latter’s 800,000 figure, and based on that upbraids Gor for not doing his homework – can we then conclude that Ms. Monastras has not done her homework ?
     
     

  969. We have been neglecting that together with the Armenians around 500,000 Assyrians & 300,000 Pontic Greeks were murdered at the same time with the same & main aim of emptying the Armenian Plateau & surrounding lands from Christians & inhabit those lands with Circassians & other muslim people similar to the Bosnian,Greek Thrace Turks & Turkish Bulgarians.The issue of TB & Circassians has nothing to do with us the Armenians & it should not be discussed on this thread.Armenians had nothing to do with them.

  970. Monastras,      your buddy Mustafa Kemal called mass extermination and forced deportations of Armenians ‘a shameful act’, but you never concurred.  Are you doing your homework?

  971. “By the way, none of you have yet commented on the fate of the Circassians in 1864: 400.000 dead, 1.2 million driven out from their ancestral home.”       ragnar naess,  if you consider yourself a rational person, you wouldn’t urge Armenians to comment on the Russo-Circassian war of 1817-1864. Massacres of civilians during wars or conquests—unfortunately, yet inevitably—occur. Armenians waged no war against the Turks. When the situation became intolerable, they resisted Turkish violence in few instances. Monastras on these pages has insolence to dig out a couple of such instances conveniently omitting the causes, i.e. colonization of Armenians by the Ottoman Turks, their humiliating second-class status, regular pillages and looting of the Armenian villages by Muslim bands, abductions and killings of villagers, and the wholesale massacres in 1894-96 and in 1909—all of which had preceded Armenians’ isolated actions at resistance. But Monastras is a Turk, and, being a Turk, she’ll never understand that in the summer of 1915, when the savage extermination of Armenians was in full blast, Armenians couldn’t physically ‘tie down five Turkish divisions and  tens of thousands of Kurds’. Being a Turk, she’ll always see everything throughthe Turkish perspective: uncaring, irresponsive, and insensible to whatever the Armenians and international experts would have to say.  But you’ve shown that you know full well that while not being a party to any war or conquest Armenians were, nonetheless, subjected to the premeditated, government-executed extermination as a racial, national, ethnic, and religious group.

  972. Gor
    I am sorry to say so, but you seem to have no idea about how the jurists argue about
    genocide. You just go on talking about things that happen in war, and making
    the distinction  between  indigenous people and conquering people. But
    then of course I understand that admitting that Turks also were subject to
    genocide is a provocation for you. But why will this change anything regarding
    the Armenian cause? The Turks in the main bring this up as an answer to
    Armenians something which is manifestly not relevant. But if you ask me I of
    course say that ACCORDING TO THE REASONING OF ICTJ the massacres of Turks in
    Bulgaria, which of course goes way beyond what can be called events that
    inevitably will happen in a war, the Turks suffered genocide, or Cossacks and
    Russians and Bulgarian committed genocide. Why this causes this uproar is very
    sad, because it shows that you are committed to a whole ideology of exclusivity
    of suffering, not only to your own just cause which you are polluting with the
    denial of other people’s suffering. And Gina, I really wonder what you hope to
    accomplish with your words. Like in Gayane’s posts I can see no arguments, no
    fair representation of my views, just – well, you have used a lot of – but I
    will leave this language to you.

  973. monastras

    I have looked through your posts, but I cannot anywhere find your answer to several of my questions. I used quite some space to refer to Gerlach’s treatment of the IAMM’s handling of the feeding of muhacirs compared to the feeding of Armenians. I mentioned Halacoglu’ article that seemes inadvertently to expose the myth of the fair handling of Armenians that were relocated as a falsehood.I will come back to your posts more in detail, but will only note now that the idea that the ittihadists sent Armenians to a location that could not support them, happened because they were so preoccupied with the war, is very problematic, taken as a kind of exculpation of the ittihadists. First, they followed the fate of the Armenians very closely, according to the kara kapli defter.Secondly, they made very specific arrangements regarding the ratio of Armenians in the areas where they were to be settled. Third, if they did not think of it, it is a case of criminal negligence. Fourth, the allies had issued a statement to the effect that those guilty of atrocities against Armenians wewre to be punished. The ittihadists even published a book in 1917 on the question. Is this an argument for their not having the fate of armenians in their mind? Now there are of course different ways to interpret this, but I can see no explanatory value in this  thesis of the ittihadists inadvertently sending people to a place where they could not survive 

        

  974. ragnar naess,     I never claimed to have an idea about how the jurists argue about genocide, but I believe I have an ability to look at events from the historical, chronological, and situational perspectives. And however hard you bid defiance to these perspectives: war, autochthony, alien conquests, and instigation of reciprocal massacres, you won’t be able to shrug them off, if you are interested in social justice. No one here ever denied other people’s suffering and no one is committed to the notion of exclusivity of suffering: Armenians do mention the genocides of the Greeks, Pontic Greeks, and Assyrians in the hands of the Turks.  What we deny is attempts at equalizing genocides with wartime atrocities or massacres or ethnic cleansing. We deny attempts at tangentially extrapolating events, in which non-Armenians figured, on Armenians. It’s a pity that after 1000+ comments you still ask what causes our uproar. Well, what I just said does.  Further, I don’t want to ask you if according to the reasoning of the ICTJ the BTs suffered ‘genocide’, because your persona doesn’t seem to be compatible to and as authoritative as the ICTJ. If you have problems with the ICTJ, then present your concerns in the court. Don’t come to an Armenian online publication and say: “if you ask me, I think BTs suffered genocide.” With the same token, if you ask me, Ottoman Turks have butchered in the most savage forms all the Christians of Asia Minor. Has their barbarism been ever condemned in a court? The truth is that the ICTJ has confirmed applicability of the Armenian genocide, not Turkish or Circassian massacres, to the Convention. Again, if you have problems with the court, go the court, not the Armenian forum.

  975. Armenian compatriots: this is the man you are dealing with.

    { Guest – ragnar naess  2011-09-12 20:53:36 I agree that the word “genocide” should not figure as prominently in the Armenian accusations against Turkey as it does. However, to simply scrap the word does not make sense. There is a real debate on whether a genocide occurred.} (Hurriyet Sept 8, 2011: article “Charles Aznavour faces criticism over ‘genocide’  ”)
     
    My comment: No, he doesn’t; another piece of Turk disinformation.
    Armenians revere an Armenian &  French  National Treasure like Genius  Charles Aznavour, a gift to Humanity from Armenians, nurtured and blossomed in the fertile French soil.

    We understand he has a heart of gold, and wants  peace and friendship between peoples. We understand he is not a politician. He is a humanitarian and artist par excellence. We honor and revere his humanity and forgiveness, even towards Denialist Turks.

    And No, there is no debate about AG. The debate is manufactured by Turks and Turkophile agents, like Mr. Naess. 

    I wish my Armenian compatriots would not treat Denialists with kid gloves. Every time you do, they’ll spit in your face. There is only one way to deal with them.

     

     

     

  976. I am deleting endlessly
    Twisted souls 
    Twisted pens 
    Twisted phrases
    From each sense…
    I feel relaxed…No one can change the evil minds… 
     
    I wonder how people can twist everything 
    To see their sun still shinning all over
    Their sun can’t shine always 
    They aren’t stronger than Steve Jobs 
    Who showed us real Sun-Rays
    Dedicated his life to make people happy 
    Enjoying their sense 
    At every corner of universe
    Making the poor rich having mobiles…Ipods…
     
    Those evil pens 
    Can no longer sand the truth 
    It is in the internets
    From the East to The West
    What ever lie they will lace 
    It will end useless…
    No one will read their books… 
     
    I no longer read their venom-full phrases .
     
    Are they going to last more than 
    Jamal Pasha Saffah the butcher 
    as Arab definition defined him before and still grays …?
    More than Hitler? 
    More than Saddam ?
    I wonder ???  

    Sylva-MD-Poetry 
     
     
     

  977. Ragnar you said:
    gayane

    Sorry, but if  Boyajian initiated the use of the ’manure’ expression, isnt this also a ‘loser’ response?

    You are lucky no other words was used to describe your actions here (even though very attempting to list all the appropriate words about you……) and for your own information Boyajian’s one word is worth more than all your posts put together… so when she says “manure” to you.. I say how much of it? because not only she was very polite about her expression, she nailed it… so i call her my hero … and not a loser.. only a loser will call someone else who told the truth a loser… the end.

    Gayane   

  978. Monastras says:
    I only haven’t answered Boyajian. BIG BIG LIE.. right there… you lie MADAM.. because i can personally think two specific questions you have not answered…

    Because I couldn’t get a chance to answer first after i thought it is too late— of course it was too late.. you wait wait wait until the whole conversation moves forward with so many comments, and you use that as an excuse NOT to reply.. how typical of you madam..

    you without shame telling Gor he has not done his homework is the most asinine comment i have read so far… LOL seriously Monastras? you are telling someone who is million times more intelligent and more in tune as to what is going on than you.. you absolutely hillarious…   

  979. Gina jan– true..

    the reason Ragnar has been flopping around here with such attitude is because we have been very patient with him… guess being nice does not work with such characters…but then again, even being bluntly honest and upfront with him did not push him out … at one point, he was THINKING to dissapear but his ego could not let him do it… but his time has come… he has burned his bridges YET AGAIN.. does not take much for him to fall into his hidden denialism toward Armenians does it? the difference is in this tread it took about 1,000 posts for him to totally come out…

       oh and if you ask me…one must be missing some marbles to say that Armenians don’t care about others, Armenians only speak of their Genocide, Armenians do not consider others suffering as Genocide and BS like that… REALLY RAGNAR???  to have the balls to critize everyone on these pages including Boyajian who has been nothing but polite and very respectful is another way to twist things and turn the tide that is getting close to devour him to us…but YET refuses to critsize those deinalists who openly and with very BAD language express their denialism and hate toward all Armenians..

  980. gor

    I agree that the the fate of the Bulgarian Turks is not immediately relevant to the question of the Armenian genocide. Further, neither I am a jurist. However I stand for the views I expressed earlier in this thread. I admit that I introduced the theme. I might try to answer – by repetition and by expressing myself more clearly – your last post – in which you also repeat yourself – in detail, but will we continue this theme (the BTs and the AG)? I prefer to use time on a comment on Monastras. 

  981. The amateur Ragnar is with us again, like the yearly onset of debilitating flu.  Let us remember that Ragnar has no academic claim to anything concerning the Armenian genocide. He is a kind of academic parasite who tries to nibble his way into academia by telling Turks and Armenians what they can, and what they can’t say.  Apart from these pretensions, he also takes the stance of having superior knowledge, which is nowhere to be found in the public record.

    In one of the posts above, the amateur Ragnar informs one of the posters that he is uninformed about what jurists think.  I commend to this sclerotic scandinavian what Geoffrey Robertson wrote in 2009 about the Armenian genocide. Ragnar has no shame, and will always attempt to assert his pseudo-superiority.  If you engage with him, you feed his overweening ego. Turcophile or just simple nuisance, he should be ignored.

    Ragnar’s efforts on every website at all times to inform the rest of us what academics think is a joke he tells himself.  We know where the scholarship is, and we know what it says.  Even Scandinavian missionaries diplomats brought to Ragnar’s grandparents current descriptions of the intentional murder of Assyrians, Greeks, Pontic Greeks, and Armenians.

  982. right you are, Avery,       when it comes to a wartime episode containing atrocities against Bulgarian Turks, mr naess without restraint uses the word ‘genocide’, despite the fact that no international legal body ever applied the Genocide Convention to the event and no genocide scholar or jurist, even his bff mccarthy, ever used the word with regard to the event. But when it comes to events that were internationally recognized as genocides, such as the Armenian genocide, whose applicability to the Genocide Convention has been legally confirmed, he unambiguously states that ‘there is a real debate on whether a genocide occurred’.  You missed the train, ragnar naess,    the debate is long over: more than twenty-five countries in the world, including France, Russia, and Vatican, dozens of provincial legislatures, the European Parliament, the ICTJ, the UN Subcommission on Human Rights, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, and scores of genocide scholars, historians, international lawyers, and Nobel Prize laureates have recognized Turkish barbaric extermination of Armenians as genocide. You missed the train…

  983. Avery,

    Oh please! Get up off of your high horse of ultr-biased, faux morality, why don’t you!! It’s actually becoming nauseating!! 

  984. Thanks again, VTiger, for pointing the way.  Assyrians and Pontic Greeks and Armenians have much in common and it makes sense to discuss each of these group’s histories together.  But the fates of Bulgarian Turks and Circasians, are not directly related to the discussion of Turkish culpability for the Armenian Genocide and are really just side notes.  That doesn’t mean they are unworthy discussions; just not relevant here other than to explain the revenge rampage that was unleashed on the Christians of Asia Minor.  Which, if I was a Turk, I would be ashamed to admit to!

    This is not a thread about all people who suffered genocide.  This is a thread about obtaining justice for Armenians who suffered a genocide at the hands of CUP and Ottoman Turkey.  We are not being exclusive.  We are “focusing”.   I would never dream of going to a website for the study of all genocides and berate writers there for not focusing on the Armenian genocide.  The other side of that coin is that I would expect others not to come to this website and berate Armenians for not widening the scope of this discussion.  The Armenian Weekly is a publication of a political body that has an agenda…it doesn’t pretend to be unbiased about the question of Turkish culpability.  
     
    My own side note:  How do you really know who you are talking to here?  In reality, we are shouting into an abyss and waiting to hear what echoes back.   The rules here are different than face to face discussion or email communication between known colleagues, friends or acquaintances or even identified strangers.   Everyone is anonymous (except Ragnar!) and everyone has their own discussion style.  I may at times let my leg get pulled a bit or other times let out enough rope to let someone hang themselves with it, but I am aware of what I am doing and take everything with a grain of salt.   Eventually, the truth reveals itself.  (Those who think I took a puff from the hookah are wrong, but I do at times sit in the same room with it.  Risk of second hand exposure, I know…)

    Right now I feel we are all members of the cast of characters on the “Ragnar Naess Takes on the Armenian Weekly Show.”  Sadly, we go around in circles and I can barely stand repeating my own recycled arguments which fall on (his) deaf ears.  I don’t know whether or not he is the slippery and conniving genocide denier or the curious researcher enjoying a controversial debate or something else.   I just know he does not behave as a friend of the Armenians, despite the occasional challenge to the likes of Monastras or Murat or Robert.  

    I like coming to the Armenian Weekly to share thoughts with others who carry the burden for Armenian justice and I imagine that putting our thoughts ‘out there’ might somehow move the conflict forward.   I also like discussions with those who disagree with me as long as they appear sincere.   I will continue to object to illogical comparisons to other catastrophes and to distortions and blatant lies and denial.   But I have engaged in discussion with Ragnar for more than a year now and don’t believe anything we say penetrates …  That in itself, may say a lot about a person’s intentions.

    Ragnar you don’t understand that part of what goes on here is an effort to work through individual and collective pain.  You focus on the hurt feelings of Turks who think they are being falsely accused and are insensitive to the pain of a nation waiting 96 years for justice.  You think nothing of coming to this site and suggesting to Armenians that they should be more understanding of the feelings of those who seemingly have no feeling for us.  You bring suspicion and rancor on yourself with your Turkocentric view of history.  But I am just repeating myself…

    I agree with Gor’s last post to you.

  985. Let Change this Subject and know the latest about Steve Jobs and How much he knew about Genocide from his adopted parents …
    I say God Is Great …The truth will prevail through Apple
    The latest History which everyone around the universe will read through Internet 
    Now I can pray to God…
    As long ego, I did not do,
    As he forgot Us and left us to mourn…
    Since our childhood days… 
    I repeat GOD is Great 
    Truth oneday must prevail…
    And That day did come…

    I am happy that he was informed about Armenian Genocide…from his adopted parents (Hagopian=Jacab=Jobs), who he lived with them for at least 20 years…This is great …I think he heard about Genocide almost everyday as we did…It was our childhood stories…Not about Sandrella and her lost shoe.
    I think, may be Steve’s biological grandmother from his father…Syrian site also had genes of Armenian from genocide …as many Syrians do…
    I know Syrian pediatrician, Dr.Gabi, his grandmother and his wife’s grandmother were Armenians from Genocide…also I am discovering many Beduins in Iraq and Gulf have Armenian genes…The orphan Armenian girls were picked up in the Syrian desert of Der-zor…more to come…

     
     

  986. JDA jan-welcome back.. missed you too… :)

    Gor jan– apres.. loved it….

    Boyajian jan- as always brilliant..but know this my dear… i said this before and i will continue to say it.. even repeat it million times a day…. Ragnar is a hard cord denialist and a Turkophile… no doubt about it.. the difference between him and the other neo denialists such as Necatis, monastras, murats, roberts, kurts of the world is this: Ragnar is way too sophisticated than the peanut gallery…. but he is no different… might as well be because the poison with sweetner in it kills faster and is more deadly than the bitter poison itself…

    Robert– why don’t YOU get off your anti-Armenian and your crowned jewel denialist horse.. then tell Avery what to do… i know there is alot of truth flying around here… and i knwo you can’t handle the truth.. but no need to show your bitter persona…thank you and have a day…

    Ragnar– as always.. you controdict and confuse even yourself..i would suggest you to stop.. just give up please.. you are digging your hole deeper and deeper and you will get to a point where you will bury yourself alive and won’t be able to climb out of it… just a friendly suggestion.. not telling you what to do..      

  987. Robert oglu, anytime you feel  nauseous reading my posts – go see a doctor.
    They have drugs for all sorts of ailments  these days. And your  Medicare might pay for it: ask your doctor.

    Or better yet,  stop coming to AW: nobody invited you, nor forces you read anybody’s posts.  Go and play with your Denialist Turks friends @TZ or @HDN. You will feel better there. 

  988. Boyajian,I’ve said it before & I’ll say it again:I love reading your comments as you express yourself so clearly & beautifully.I can hear tender music while reading your comments & it soothes me.This is art.

  989. I can also help Avery jan… I can refer a doctor if Robert Efendi needs to cure his nausea.. that is how we are Robert.. Armenians try to help and make others feels better no matter how much they hate us…. so drop a note if you need a referral.. always happy to help….

    Ragnar?? have not heard from you for the last day or so.. very odd…. hope you are ok….   

    Sylva jan– i am not bit surprised that an Armenian upbringing had some effect on Steve Job’s success… i am very proud of the parents for raising such an icon…      

  990. Gayane,

    Are you speaking to me? Odd, non-entities can’t communicate, so it’s puzzeling how you can do so. You’ve already added to your reputation of being a heartless, cold, cunniving, rude, crude individual (when you went too farabout insulting my family!). Therefore, any comments that you have to make is the equivalent of a disembodied spirit trying to communicate from the afterlife. You would have known this earliers, but the AW board chose to delete my last comments to you. I guess they truly do have your backs, huh!

  991. I believe I was not talking to any other Robert but you Robert.. now WHICH one of you i was talking to is a mystery.. in any case there is no one else on this thread by the name of Robert is it? don’t know why you are confused..

    it is sad but at the same time cowardly act to MISrepresent those who speak up and point out who you really are and catch you in your deep rooted hate toward Armenians and in your ugly game… thank you for confirming all the characteristics (you described above addressed to me) describing your own self…but it is not nice to call another without strong proof.. especially when you were proven wrong and caught in a lie over and over (and plz stop using your family story to misrepresent me .. this matter was closed and sealed) I understand you need to use it over and over and misuse my posts to fit in your narsastic and egotistical self)…

    If i did not know better Robert, i may have thought you want to change insulting posters here by calling them Satan’s worshippers,having unltra-biased and faux morality, heartless, rude, ect ect ect.. i doubt anything has changed…labeling people who do not possess such horrible traits shows how bitter you missed the boat…to fulfill your resentment toward Armenians you label us with phantom names and believe by doing so you are going to show us.. now that is sad…

    and just so you know.. everytime you use nasty comments against my friends or myself, you will get a mouthfull from me… you can count on that.. 

    guess AW does not discriminate against your denialists because your post did come through did it not??? you should thank AW that they publish your filth on these pages.. STOP blaming your insecurities about everything on AW and us… if i may be frank YET AGAIN…I am getting really sick and tired of your whinning about your post not being posted..GET OVER IT…

    have a nice day SIR(s)…

    Gayane       

  992. Gee, there’s that disembodied spirit voice once again, ranting and yabbering about something. The only such voice used to belong (as best as could be reckoned) to someone named Gayane. But that individual is a non-entity, and can thus be ignored. This voice is absolutey fine with personal insults, but can’t take the truth when challenged. This voice relies on subterfuge, distractive elements, false examples, etc (please note how etcetera is abbreviated). The voice seeks examples of her rude, callous, defaming, insultive, arrogant and childish mannerisms. However, the squire hath only to direct the spirit voice to thine own posts, as far back as wished, to see countless examples of cold-hearted averice, unprofessionalism, and utter hate possessed in a cold, cold heart! Yea verily, thine distant echoes can dish it out, but most certainly can not take even a simidgened of a resounding retort! The voice hath maketh idle threats and demands, but shys away from any challenge offered. Thus, to this spirit voice who mutters from afar, be gone I say, back to the darkness from whence you emerged and must now return to dwell in your abode of guilt-ridden squalor. Thine words have become meaningless, for they can never hold any devine truth, only that which eminates from the heart of a desperate soul! Good day spirit voice. 

  993. Dear Sylva,

    I am so happy to see you write again on these sites your wonderful pros and justified stand for our cause.  It is so welcoming and appreciated by us all to have you amidst us.

  994. Robert the Turk,

    The way you rant in rage against a great lady such as Gayane is unwelcomed and totally unscrupulous on your part.  I suggest you talk to a psychologist how to speak to on these forums appropriately and respectfully to ladies and men alike.

  995. ragnar naess:     “[…]but will we continue this theme (the BTs and the AG)?”  There is no such a theme per se as “BTs and the AG”; it’s your phantasmagorical invention.  In no scholarly literature can you find such a theme, and, as far as I know, no sober-minded jurist ever attempted to tie the two totally unrelated and unmatched—in purpose, scope, magnitude, and consequences—events.  There is BTs, as well dozens of similar wartime events separate from a few legally recognized genocides.  Whenever you stop, I’ll reciprocate.

  996. Seervart jan– mersi Quyrs… but unfortunately RObert (Roberts) has a problem.. his fixation on an issue that is not even an issue shows how much he is trying to justify his Anti-Armenianness and Neo-Ottoman mentality.. it is unfortuate because we gave him a chance, a chance that we give to all Denialists on these pages to reedem their dark hearts.. but instead of turning around he got even more aggressive and Anti-Armenian… i understand truth hurts but instead of learning from his mistakes, he comes back with more hate and harassment…

    Robert the Turk– glad to know you have a good command of the English language but all the profecioncy in the world can’t change the fact that you are a manipulator, denialists and a harrassor… sorry… case closed.. and this is not being rude SIR, it is just how it is… sprit voice, non-existant or whatever you decided to call me…    

  997. Vochinch Gayane jan,  This Robert the Turk seems to have some mental issues.  Don’t be bothered my dear, just continue to concentrate on the more important issues of our cause as well as to the ones that truly value you; that is us all of your compatriots.

  998. gor

    thank you for our discussion which was enlightening in many ways. Regarding the theme, I refer to my earlier posts. Needless to say, jurisprudence always deals with the applicarion of common rules to new cases, and there should be nothing surprising that people try to apply it to new cases if there is some similitude, in this case the occurrence of mass killings and deliberate exposion of large groups to life threatening conditions. But I find it useless to answer your adjectives. If you cite me and provide an argument relevant to the citation I will of course try to answer 

  999.  
    Steve knew in detail about Armenian genocide…
    What it meant…!His parents spoke about it every day …
    It was stories of his childhood…
     
    God is Great 
    To tell every being 
    Carrying I’s in their pockets 
    To know about Armenians
    Who were genocided …slayed… 
    Expelled from their ancient land 
    They were old,  cultured race …
    Had Kingdom…Fortresses…Alphabets
     
    Were in so called Turkey…
    In Western Armenia…Cilicia 
    Before Budhha 
    Before Moses…
    Before Jesus Christ…
    Before Prophet Mohammad…
     
    Now no Armenian anymore there 
    All scimitarated or Turkefied
    Changed their Culture…
    Their Religion
    Their Names…!!!
     
    Read In internet 
    And pray that some still exist 
    And by luck 
    Steve’s real parents 
    Who feed him cake, water, bread 
    Were Armenians 
    Escaped Hamidian Genocide of 1894…
    He was lucky to be brought up 
    By their Soulful hearts and hands…
    Teaching him Armenian Honest principles 
    In him to last…

    (C) Sylva-MD-Poetry 

  1000. ragnar naess,       apply jurisprudence to cases that you think bear similarity as much as you want and in whichever court you want, it’s your personal business. But don’t come to an Armenian publication and tell us, the descendants of victims of Turkish barbarism, that there is ‘some similitude’ between a few cases that have been legally recognized as compatible to the Genocide Convention and a case that you personally think might be applicable. No one cares about what you think, because you lack academic or legal credentials to make judgments about anything concerning the Armenian genocide. You’re not required to answer my ‘adjectives’, you’re required to stop. If you pop up again with nightmarish similarities between civilian casualties in war episodes that were by no means caused by the Armenians, I’ll be there to refute you without giving a damn whether my argument is relevant or irrelevant to any outlandish citation of yours.

  1001. Gitem Boyajian and Seervart jan… gitem.. and that will be my purpose until the end…:)

    Gor jan– JANNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN… Gor jan… inch lav asetsir in your recent post… I am sooo greateful and honored to know you are out there to stop fabrications, nightmarish comparisons, lies and manipulations… I thank the stars every day that we have people like you amongst us… God Bless you….  

    Ragnar-   aghhhh.. no hope sir.. no hope… you continue to press your nonsensical comments…

  1002. Robert
    I commend you for sharing your grief about your deceased brother, and your admission that you had adressed Armenians in an insulting way. It seemed like you expected that after this everything would be all right….. But apart from that I wonder how you relate to this discussion ground in the “Armenian Weekly” at all. To engage in this kind of competition in pouring out rancour, insults and opprobria, is that wise? Does it give any effect in the long run? In late august you made a number of points regarding the relationship between Armenians and Turks. While I have not much knowledge on some of them, like the question of Karabagh/Artsakh, there is one point where I believe you are mistaken. This is about the alleged difference between Armenians in Armenia and in the Diaspora regarding the genocide. I think that the rejection of the Commission of Historians by both the people at large in the Diaspora and in Armenia shows that it is of paramount importance for them that there should be no doubt about thew fact of the genocide. And they interpreted the proposal of the commission as an invitation to admit doubt. I agree with you that it was unwise of Armenians to reject the proposal of march 2005 to participate in such a commission. But there is no fundamental disagreement between Armenians on this issue as far as I can see. And should’nt this also be an argument for you to take the Armenain allegations seriously, and try to discuss them and go into them with an open mind? In the declaration by the Turkish government and the CHP of 2005 it is said: “WE WILL BOW TO THE RESULTS!” that is “we will accept the results of an impartial investigation”. So I’d like to heaer your arguments about 1915. You may of course ask about the value of dialogues like this one in “Armenian Weekly”. If the point only was to “win” a discussion in some sense, I would not participate. The point for me is that we learn through dialogues, and we should accept that other participants learn from listening to dialogues that are INFORMED, not just haggling over insignificant details or throwing shit. There are people here who say that they learn from listening to dialogues between other participants. And we should accept that in a dialogue we should help others formulating their own viewpoints, even if they are completely against our own. And we do this by arguing. And by arguing we also change ourselves. Theree are some arguments I heard from my Armenian friends in 2010 which are not mentioned anymore, and I myself emphasize much clearer now than before that the bottom line of this question is that Turks must go much more seriously into it, must admit more and give more in terms of reparations. The Turkish government’s decision to return non-moslem assets to their owners shows that the Turkish government knows that they must not only talk about their illoyal Christian citizens, the Armenian guerilla in 1915 or the catastrophes of the Balkans. The government knows that the earlier Turkish way of handling these historical questions are inadequate. Turks must explain why the government allotted more than ten times as much money for Muslim Muhacirs than to Armenians that were deported in 1915, to take the point I have raised with Monastras and still wait for answer to. So why not try, as Monastras and gor does, to participate with relevant knowledge?
     

  1003. gor

    I thought we had shelved this issue. however, the “similarity” is not my invention. Bloxham writes on page 63 in his “The Great Gamer of Genocide”:
    Though
    there is no definite causal relationship between the population displacement (of Muslims,RN)
    and the coming armenian genocide, it is beyond dispute that muslim suffering on
    this scale and the indifference of the outside world to it, heavily coloured
    late ottoman perspectives, providing a model of the ‘solution’ of population
    problems and accentuating an already brutalized ethos of state demographic
    policy of the region
    The ittihadists did what they did – on a much larger and more gruesome scale – as a response to – and in imitation of – what had been done to them before by others, in this lie the similarities.
      

  1004. In 1915 Henry Morgenthau Sr.,the neutral American ambassador to the Ottoman empire,sent this cable to the U.S. State department.
    “Deportation of and excesses against peaceful Armenians is increasing & from harrowing reports of eye witnesses it appears that a campaign of race extermination is in progress under a pretext of reprisal oagainst rebellion.”
    In 1916, Morgenthau’s successor as ambassador to Turkey, mr. Abram Elkus,cabled the U.S. State department that the Young Turks were continuing an “…unchecked policy of extermination through starvation,exhaustion, & brutality of treatment hardly surpassed even in Turkish history.”

  1005. In response to VTiger

    “Morgenthau, as the ambassador from a nation which slaughtered the native Americans, has no right to accuse the Turks of racial extermination.  

    No, what I mean is these two American ambassadors were Turk haters.  And they were syphilitic lepers.

    Sorry, no, they were paid by the enemies of The Sublime Porte to say such hateful things.  

    No wait, it is all just jealousy over Turkish superiority.  Anglo-American inferiority at work.

    What audacity, as guests of the empire to say such lies!

    Anyway, it was self defense against Armenian rebellions.  And we had to make room for Muslim refugees from the Balkans.

    The Altai Mountains of Central Asia were the cradle of civilization and we must fulfill our hegemonic destiny.”

  1006. Ragnar

    I found my answer dated 27.09.2011.
    You wrote
    the money used for the welfare of the Armenian deportees is only a fraction per person of the money used for resettlement of the Muslim muhacir from the Balkans.”
    I am afraid we cannot credit this man who actually is a petroleum engineer and connected to the Michigan University. Unfortunately, some people want to become a celebrity of the Armenian genocide in Turkey. I can make many negative comments about this guy but people can find these criticisms easily without my comments. You said his work is accepted as somewhat accurate by Yusuf Halacoglu. Did Yusuf Halacoglu change his view regarding the Armenian Genocide? If he didn’t change, what is the reason that he didn’t change his position? I even do not believe that CUP had a proper budget and money to spend while they were dealing with half a millions of enemy soldiers only in one front. I think we are judging something with today’s logic that happened a century ago. We think that CUP leaders sat down on their chairs and decided that Immigrant Turks should have 10 dollars but the Armenians should have only 1 dollar. Why can’t you think that they might have spent the money for the Turkish immigrants from Balkan and for war effort and spent the remaining money for the Armenians? As far as we know, the immigrants came first from Balkan then the Armenians were deported.(Gayane, Don’t jump on my words saying the Armenians were deported because the immigrant Turks needed shelter.I know it will be beyond your comprehension but they actually came to the western Turkey not to the beautiful Armenian Highland.) Turks were sleeping on streets, in their ox-carts in search of a shelter to sleep. Even Istanbul streets and squares were full of refugees’ ox-carts. Moreover, imagine for a minute that everything is dead accurate about what Fuat Dundar says without thinking the background of the events. We still cannot use selective evidences to support what we are thinking. If you do, it will hit you sooner or later.”

    Yes this is the answer but you probably overlooked my post. I can add a few more things to the answer. You must understand that if they had decided to exterminate the Armenian population in Turkey, they wouldn’t take any risk to let the people go so they can escape the genocide. They could have killed them on the spot without taking any risk.We all know that large number of Armenians survived  so what was the point for the CUP leaders to commit a genocide by deporting the population and eventually having back most Armenians alive and spent significant amount of money, time, resources for them whatever the amount of the money was before and after the deportation.If we had a crazy man who captured the state machine and did this to the Armenian community , we wouldn’t have talked about this now.Yes you can criticize the CUP leaders for their incompetence but If you are a fair man you have to admit that they had very few options.  I am certain that Fuat Dundar is fooling people but he still hasn’t become an Armenian genocide celebrity.if you look at my previous post I wasn’t discrediting him simply based on his profession but his connection. Moreover, If you had come here and say “Hey Armenians Mr Fuat Dundar who is a petroleum engineer found evidences that the Armenian genocide didn’t occur” you would have become a laughingstock but these hypocrites do not mind if Hitler gave them a support.I was going to write more about the way our discussion is heading and what can be done what can not be done for both parties but I am struggling to sit down and make comment very often for the time being. I am sure I will be in a position to make more comments in the future 

  1007. ragnar naess,      if you think we had shelved the issue, then stop commenting on it. As simple as that. Yes, the ‘similarity’ is your phantasmagorical invention. Bloxham’s quote suggests absolutely nothing in support of your idea of “similitude”. On the contrary, it reaffirms that “there is no definite causal relationship between the [Muslim] population displacement and the coming Armenian genocide.” According to him, the population displacement coloured late Ottoman perspectives, note: not caused, but just coloured. One may ask as to how the Turks appeared in Eastern Europe so they later were displaced? But I know you dreadfully avoid touching upon who did what first, be it the Turkish invasion and colonization of the Balkans, Asia Minor, and the Middle East or Muslim massacres of Bulgarian villagers that provoked retaliatory actions. For Turkophiles like you, history starts with what was done to the Turks, not with what was done by the Turks in the first place.

    In “The Slaughter of a Nation: An Investigation into the Causation of Genocide” Matthew Samuel sums up several causes of the Armenian Genocide that run far deeper than the population displacement in which Armenians played no role whatsoever. He writes: “[…] a complex combination of economic inequality, social mobility, wartime stress, militarism, nationalism, political strength, and equalization pressures directly and indirectly posed by the Armenians as the minority, caused Turkish officials as representatives of the majority to implement the Armenian Genocide.” Author Amy Chua has a theory of “market-dominant minorities”, which gives an important, yet partial, explanation of the genocide. Robert Melson emphasizes social mobility, wartime stresses, and prepared militarism of the Turks. Berch Berberoglu has a hypothesis of increased nationalism and political strength within a minority that displeased the majority. Author Meir Amor stresses the minority desire for formal equalization of status and the resulting retaliation by the majority. All of these causes, including others—pan-Turkic expansionist ambition being one—can serve to explain the hate and fear that the Turks harbored towards their Armenian contemporaries, and the subsequent barbaric actions that were taken.

    Further, “The Ittihadists did [to Armenians] what they did […] as a response to–and in imitation of—what had been done to them before by others, in this lie the similarities.”  Dead wrong. There can be no similarity to what was done to the Armenians by the Turks, because Armenians were not the ones who physically caused or instigated what had been done earlier to the Turks. If your next-door neighbor wrongs you, you don’t set other neighbor’s house ablaze in reprisal.

    About six Turkish soldiers stood behind [a circle of women]. They had whips and each had a gun… The soldiers cracked the whips on the women’s backs and faces, and across their breasts…then two soldier… began to douse the women with the fluid… I could smell that it was kerosene… then I could see the fire growing off the women’s bodies, and their screaming became unbearable.”  (Peter Balakian, Black Dog of Fate)

  1008. “[…] it was self defense against Armenian rebellions.”     Could you enumerate those rebellions by which armed-to-the-teeth, tidily mobilized, well-organized Armenians threatened the empire, please? Don’t forget to explain if women , children, and the elders posed a threat so that poor Turks had to self-defend themselves?
     
    “And we had to make room for Muslim refugees from the Balkans.”    Exactly. That’s why the Armenians were mass exterminated and forcibly deported from their ancient lands.
     
    “The Altai Mountains of Central Asia were the cradle of civilization and we must fulfill our hegemonic destiny.”      What contributions to the humanity did this ‘cradle of civilization’ produce, except for nomadic tribes, terrorizing warriors, destroyers, invaders, colonizers, and ultimately genocide perpetrators?  Seriously, please lay out what achievements in urban development, culture, writing, sciences, music, arts, and literature did the descendants of Altai Mountains of Central Asia produce.

  1009. LET ME SET THE RECORD  STRAIGHT!
    I´m no academician(though were invited  by the RA Academy in´92 to Yerevan)no historian either,but simply anArmenian Activist  since  many yrs(near 34). I shall intervene only w/rgds to accusation  by some Turks  or turcophiles thrown on Armenians as :-
    The Armenians  revolted,rebelled in the ottoman Empire. And unfortunately some naive Armenians  try to justify  themselves saying  ¨Armenians were law abiding…etc..¨
    NO  such  thing  , at  least  from now  on,enough automatically repeating  that,like parrots, without  stopping to think otherwise.  <   T  H  U  S   :-
    Armenians were defeated by the seljuk tatar turks and made second class citizens,  NAY,,  Rayas-as denominated  by  the Ottoman  turks, pretty  much  like  ¨slaves¨in America..   WHO LATER   REBELLED, REVOLTED  AND GAINED   F  R  E  E  D  O  M!!!!and were well compensated.
    AND/OR (few  here  if  any  know)that Spain  was conquered  by North African Khaliphates  and ruled  over for 600   years8VERYN MUCH  LIKE THE OTTOMANS ON ARMENIANS 600..
    Then a Spanish  princes, gathered around  herself the spanish princelings, holding secret  meetings, got their  people armed  and THREW  THE CONQUERERS  OUT OF  I B E R I A/Spain. Which goes  to  show  that  any SUBDUED  PEOPLE/NATION    HAS  THE  GOD -GIVEN   RIGHT  TO   R E B E L   STAND  UP ,GET ORGANIZED  AND THROW  YOLK AWAY.
    Thence  when a Turk  -even  now  right  now,  thinks  that  the Armenians ,yes  even  in Istanbulla,must continue  to live  in a subdued,feared  and harassed   manner-thinks   so, is 100%  mistaken!!!!people  if  not outright rebelling ,our Fedayees our end  of 1800  hundreds  ,Zeytoon, later  VAN, comes  to mind, had  the God  given right to do so.) CAN   INDEED  DO  AS    H  R  A  N  T        D  I  N  K    DID!!!!! 
    I must  ask  those turcophiles  to understand  the RIGHT  OF ALL `PEOPLE..WHETHER  IN S.AFRICA, FAR  EAST  OR   ASIA   M  I  N  O  R     ,ESPECIALLY    now!!!!!  THE  
    k  u  r  d  s       HAVE THE RIGHT TO STAND  UP AND DEMAND   FREEDOM, TO SELF GOVERNMENT.You S.o.b ing  B…..who do you think you are trying to cheat ,lie….
    All people  have the God given  right  to shake away  invader/usurper conquereros.,
    Want  More? All near all S.American countries  did  the same !!!!!
    So go grind  your oxydated  axes  elsewhere!!!!  you  s.o.b ing  Bs….
     

  1010. @Gobble,finally your kind of people are on the verge of extinction even in nowadays Turkey.Few years back nobody in Turkey could utter the word of Armenian Genocide committed by your famous criminal ancestors.Now on a daily basis it is everywhere in the media.The last sample such as you will be exhibited in the Armenian Genocide “Dzidzernagapert” museum in Yerevan & hopefully it turns out to be you.So stay healthy till then.At least this way you will be immortal.
    These are historical records together with thousands similar ones in German,French,British,Armenian ++++ so many… & even Ottoman archives that no people nor any  government can erase them.

  1011. Gor

    When somebody showed you the swimming pool, you have jumped into the swimming pool that has no water. Then you  of course hurt your body badly. For your information, The Turks from Balkans were brought to western Turkey and the Armenian community were deported from Eastern Turkey. They are two different things and took place in two different places thousands of mile away from each other. Does it matter for your Armenians? Of course not. Even Steve Jobs was told the Armenian genocide everyday for his well being. You can make up the rest

  1012. Gaytzag Palandjian
    You are absolutely right. People can revolt against their rulers and gain FREEDOM. The problem with your compatriots is they want to rewrite the history.Yes the Armenians revolted in the beginning of the century yes the Armenians deposed of 500 hundred Turkish soldiers only during the resistance of Zeitoun.Even more in Van and elsewhere.They weren’t sheep to follow the Ottoman orders.They weren’t blind not to see how small nations gained their freedom. They were well aware that they had huge supports from the enemies of the Turks. Why try to hide? They will be there forever.

  1013. Hey Gobble,do you know that a civil society in Turkey is working on a draft law to combat hate crimes?Watch out as soon you will be gobbled by your own.

  1014. VTiger and Gor, my most esteemed Armenian defenders, you completely missed the sarcasm in my previous remark.  Even my name is a joke.  Please re-read and then if you have further questions, I will gladly respond.  

  1015. Monastras,       if I’m shown a swimming pool that has no water, I wouldn’t jump in it. Maybe a Turk would, but hardly an Armenian. Unless, of course, defenseless Armenian women, children, and the elderly would be forced to hurt themselves or lose lives at the point of a Turkish gun.
     
    I don’t know what hookah you’re puffing, but, first, the Armenians were not just forcibly deported, they were massacred en masse on spot or en route to the deserts where they were left to die of starvation. Had 1.5 million people been just ‘deported’, the conventional wisdom (if Turks are at all familiar with the notion) suggests that they would be brought back to the places of origin.  Second, many Turkish occupiers expelled from the Balkans were brought to the homes of the Armenians and given allowances originated from theft of Armenian properties and bank accounts. Go read the calculations that a genocide perpetrator Tallat Pasha had made regarding forced deportations of Armenians from eastern parts of Turkey and re-population of eastern parts of Turkey by the Balkan Turks. Then come back and we will discuss the matter further, for instance, what other good deeds the Turks have done to the Armenians.
     
    For your information, Steve Jobs was told the Armenian genocide horror accounts because his mother, Claire Hagopian, was an Armenian.

  1016. VTiger, I am sorry for the confusion.  I guess it was a bad idea, sarcasm as humor doesn’t translate well.  I was trying to show the absurdity of the typical Turkish genocide denier. 

    The news about the civil society working against hate speech in Turkey is encouraging and I would like to know more about this.

     

  1017. The the idea of the mummified remains of the last genocide denier on display at Dzidzernagapert Genocide Memorial is quite fitting.  The place that recognizes the death of 1.5 million martyrs will also recognize the end of millions of small minded deniers.  I think someone should create and name such a statue now in anticipation of this event.

  1018. Ok I am a bit confused by G, Gobble, Turkey Defender… you totally lost me.. either you are a lunatic or someone really being sarcastic… if you are a Turk and you truly believe what you said, then you belong in a nut house.. and if you are an ARmenian and you were being funny, then my apologies…

    Monastras- huh??? what?? did you say something?? did not think so…

      

  1019. Avery,nice one!I should have guessed it but did not.Nice one indeed.’

    Sorry VTiger – it wasn’t me. But agree completely: a nice one indeed (whoever the author is). It was so well done that you and Gor got taken in: very impressive.

     

  1020. ‘ his mother, Claire Hagopian, was an Armenian.’

    His adoptive mother: Jobs has no known  genetic link to Armenians via his bio-mother.
    His father was a Syrian Muslim. It is possible he had some Armenian blood, given the  large numbers of Armenian survivors of the AG that were taken in by humane and magnanimous Syrians, but it is just a conjecture.  

  1021. No  Monastras-is  it?
    Very much  like a Turk, or Turk intellectual, you first agree with me-which cannot be denied,that  of people under suppressed despootic rule can and have the God given right to rebel.But then as the ¨Khasiat¨ style  it means, you twiset  it and try to CONVINCE  ME AND OTHERS  HERE ONLINE,  THAT  WE AREMNIANS  HAD  SUPPORT????
    ¨TRY TO HIDE¨  YOU WRITE…
    It is the other way around.The support  has always been to your  people-if  you are a Turk- even though you fought ferociously against Brit-Austrailian  tropps  at  Galipoli and gave hell to them killing  them off. ÑLatter Anglo´still support  YOU, never Armenians who were on their  side  5000 or more In Palestine  forming part  of GHeneral Allenby(latter quoted  the Armenians  as very good soldiers¨ but then they forgot  that  and again SIDED  WITH  YOUR ANCESOTRS.Even  the RRRussians  ,viz  Lenin Stalin Duo after  Kemal  Ataturk had gained  hand  over  our soldiers  in Kars…instead  of suppoting us-as  you  try to MKAE  BELIEVE—GAVE  HUGE  QUANTITIES  OF GOLD AMMO AND HELPED  THEM. IMAGINING  THEY WOULD TURN  TURKS  IN THE COMMUNISTS AND HAVE  THEM AS  ANOTHER SOVIET SOCIALIST REPUBLIC.
    i HAVE SINCE  THEN TRIED  TO CONVENCIE THE SOVIET-WHENEVER I MET  WITH THEM IN CONFERENCE  IN EUROPE….last  one at the 40th Anniversay of Allied  Victory ,. that Turks,  will  never become  not  even  mild Socialsit  , ñlet  aloine communist-.All they believe  in in dough(money,para) and of course fanaticism  that  propels  their desire to destory loot kill and go for ploys…
    Looks  like  at  long  last    only NOW  THEY ARE COMING TO REALIZE  THAT WHAT  I TOLD THME  IS TRUE.SO DONT´ GIVE  US  THAT   b–s…
    eVEN AT THE LAST  STAND  IN SARDARAPAT  VIZ  1918, ALL FIGHTING  THERE  WERE aRMENIANS  NO rrUSSIANS  OR OTHERS…AND THEY THREW  BACK THE TURKISH  ARMIES WITH CAUSALITIES… AND  NOW  IN  NK, THE SAME  HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED TO LITTLE BROTHER AZERBAIJAN. YES  WE CAN FIGHT  TOOTH AND  NAILS  ON  OUR  OWN WITH NO SUPPORT. 

  1022. Ok… now i am clear.. nice one indeed G Gobbler… wow.. you got me there for a minute..:) and now that I know, you portrated exactly how denialists behave and act.. 

    Steve Jobs had no connection to Armenians per say by blood but his adoptive mother was Armenian and he grew up under her wing… don’t hate Monastras…..

  1023. To the Gobbler/Defamer of Turks,

    Just living up to what you ARF dashnak Armenians are so good at, I see! You just can’t beat that global con job push that 100 years of propaganda provides you as one heck of a head start, eh!  

  1024. Oh look Robert now with a red avatar (hmm you have blue avatar in another recent thread).. and Robert is lying your strongest point?? guess so as your coward govt 100 years of LIES LIES LIES shoved in your brains gave you PLENTY OF head start to the doors of hell… it is sad truly sad…

  1025. The notorious Monastras who avoided questions from left to right and lied as she usually does with her fabricated facts is telling us

    They weren’t sheep to follow the Ottoman orders.

    Well our ancestors were not sheep but they turned into sheep when women, children and elderly had to walk barefoot in the desert under the whip of the bloodthirsty, dirtly, smelly, barbaric ottoman bandits… any comment on that MONASTRAS? or do you think my family members could not wait to be pulled in 4 ways and riped apart by your heartless cruel ancestors??? instead of throwing up dirt on these pages why don’t you educate yourself first. you sound histerically hillarious with your smoked up stories….

    I agree with Gor in that you must be puffing some type of hookah to utter such nonsense…     

  1026. Monastras,
    You are right, I overlooked  a part of this answer. But this is also because you did not relate very directly to what I wrote. I will comment in the following:
    YOU WROTE: I
    am afraid we cannot credit this man who actually is a petroleum engineer and
    connected to the Michigan University.
    MY COMMENT: Read what his Turkish
    publishing house  “Iletişim yayınları” writes about him. After finishing his education in Petroleum Engineering (as if that in itself means some discredit!!!) he did a master in Istanbul University
    in political science and international relations, then he made his phd in Paris
    at the EHESS – high school of social sciences. And then he went to the Michigan
    University. He thus has a lot of relevant formal competence.
    YOU WROTE :You said his work is accepted as somewhat accurate by Yusuf Halacoglu. Did Yusuf
    Halacoglu change his view regarding the Armenian Genocide?MY COMMENT: you got it
    wrong. It is Christian Gerlach who commented on Halacoglu, and he never held
    that Halacoglu had changed his position.Neither do I. YOU WROTE:  I even do not believe that CUP had a proper budget and money to spend while they were dealing with half a millions of enemy
    soldiers only in one front. I think we are judging something with today’s logic
    that happened a century ago. COMMENT: No, they of course had a budget as I
    wrote to you. The sums mentioned by Gerlach and Halacoglu differ, but the IAMM,
    which had the responsibility both for the Muhacirs and the Armenians, had some million
    kurus. The point is that they seem to have discriminated against the Armenians.
    YOU WRITE:  We think that CUP leaders sat down on their chairs and decided that Immigrant Turks should have 10 dollars but the Armenians should have only 1 dollar.COMMENT: Yes, the numbers indicate that the muhacirs receved more, and not only ten times as much which is the
    most conservative estimate that I can glean from the numbers. I gave you the
    reference both to Gerlach’s book and Halacolgu’s article. YOU WRITE:  Why can’t you think that they might have spent the money for the Turkish immigrants from Balkan and for war effort and spent the remaining money for the Armenians? As far as we know, the immigrants came
    first from Balkan then the Armenians were deported.MY COMMENT: IAMMs budget was
    not for the war effort. It was for the settling of tribes and refugees and
    relocated people. No, they were obviously  simultaneous because both Gerlach and Halacoglu
    refer to sums used in 1915 and 1916.  It also appears that a large number of the one million or some muhacirs from 1912-13 were not settled at the beginning of 1915, but were settled in the
    course of this year. Gerlach says that the settling of muhacirs quickened with the deportation of the Armenians.  The point is that if we look at the number of people and divide the budget money according to what Halacoglu writesthe sum allotted to each Armenian is ridiculously – or criminally – small compared to the sums allotted to the muhacirs. The government of the time had money that did not go to the military effort. The point is how they used them.  YOU WRITE: (Gayane, Don’t jump on my words saying the Armenians were deported because the immigrant Turks needed shelter.I know it will be beyond your comprehension but they actually came to the western
    Turkey not to the beautiful Armenian Highland.COMMENT: Actually Gerlach points to the economic incentive for the CUP to force Armenians out in order to resettle muhacirs.Muhacirs often entered the Armenians’ houses after a few days because both corn production and care for animals meant that the time was scarse if the beneficial economic effect was to materialize. But  I don’t have any extensive  references regarding where the muhacirs were resettled, possibly it is true as McCarthy says somewhere that they PRIMARILY were settled in the West. However, Gerlach writes that they also were settled in 1915 in Zeytun, Maraş,Van, Diyarbakır, Harput, Erzurum and Sivas. It
    appears that IAMM provided 10.000 muhacirs with houses “free of rent” in Sivas alone
    – Armenian houses.  (Gerlach: Extremely violent societies, Cambridge, page102).

    YOU WRITE:  Turks were sleeping on streets, in their ox-carts in search of a shelter to sleep. Even Istanbul streets and squares were full of refugees’ ox-carts. Moreover, imagine for a minute that everything is dead accurate about what Fuat Dundar says without thinking the background of
    the events. We still cannot use selective evidences to support what we are thinking. If you do, it will hit you sooner or later. COMMENT:  Yes, the situation was catastrophic for the Turks, but aren’t we discussing whether the CUP launched an extermination campaign or not? If the situation was that bad for Turks, doesn’t that mean that the CUP had an extra motive for cleansing or killing the Armenians whom they obviously  regarded as illoyal? In any criminal investigation you look for a motive. And the CUP had a motive, didn’t they? People often commit crimes when they are in a difficult situation, even one for which they themselves were in part responsible,  but the crime is the crime all the same. And the Turkish government has never raised the issue of what happened in Bulgaria, Macedonia and the Caucasus with the governments of today. But the Armenians have been knocking on the dors  of the world’s countries and international institutions like the UN and the EU for years. They deserve a better answer than the one you provide.

     

  1027. The the idea of the mummified remains of the last genocide denier on display at Dzidzernagapert Genocide Memorial is quite fitting… & yes we have few competitors on this site.Let’s see who’s going to win this position.A name? The Lost Known Denialist may be?

  1028. unfortunately, gor, this is what happens at times. People who were beaten by their parents end up beating their own children. Some people are harassed or beaten up by a stronger neighbour and end up beating up or killing a weaker neighbour.

    you write:
    About six Turkish soldiers stood behind [a circle of women]. They had whips and each had a gun… The soldiers cracked the whips on the women’s backs and faces, and across their breasts…then two soldier… began to douse the women with the fluid… I could smell that it was kerosene… then I could see the fire growing off the women’s bodies, and their screaming became unbearable.”  (Peter Balakian, Black Dog of Fate)

     Yes, these are the terrible, horrible pictures haunting us. I had nightmares after reading the Blue Book of 1916  

  1029. what you say ‘happens at times’,  ragnar naess,     didn’t start with beatings of the Turks in the Balkans, because it was the Turks in the first place who as Central Asian nomads invaded the Balkans, the Armenian Plateau, and the Middle East, and then colonized the autochthonous, sedentary peoples. It’s commonly appropriate to say ‘A’ before saying ‘B’. Chronologically, the initial abuser was the Seljuk and Ottoman Turks. I cited several authors to demonstrate that the scholarly consensus on the causes of the AG doesn’t base on the Muslim population displacement from the Balkans. Rather, as Samuel rightly contends, “a complex combination of economic inequality, social mobility, wartime stress, militarism, nationalism, political strength, and equalization pressures […] caused Turkish officials as representatives of the majority to implement the Armenian Genocide.” Attempts at portraying population displacement, which wasn’t instigated, implemented, or otherwise affected by the Armenians, as the major cause for committing the genocide of Armenians, are nothing else than attempts at finding justification for Turkish actions. If one suggest that Bloxham and Samuel represent the prevailing majority of scholars supporting the AG, then he’s kindly reminded of what a notorious genocide denier Bernard Lewis maintains as the major cause: But the Armenians, stretching across Turkey-in-Asia from the Caucasian frontier to the Mediterranean coast […]—and [for Turks] to renounce these lands would have meant not the truncation, but the dissolution of the Turkish state.”
     
    Along with nightmares about terrible, horrible pictures of indescribable tortures and mutilations of Armenians in the hands of ‘civilized’ Turks, I hope you paid due attention that many eyewitness accounts contain mentioning of ‘Turkish soldiers’ or ‘Turkish gendarmes’, that is persons who execute commands of the state authority.

  1030. To my Turkish friends, if I have any.

    If we can but tear the blindfold of self-deception from our eyes and loosen the gag of self-denial from our voices, we can restore our country to greatness.
    Theodore C. Sorensen

  1031. Ragnar, thanks for carrying on this matter-of-fact dialogue with Monastras, asking her to recognize the prejudice with which Armenians were treated by the CUP.  Thanks also for acknowledging the horror of what the Armenians experienced.  I am sorry that you had nightmares after reading about them, but just imagine what those who actually witnessed and lived these events must have felt.  Imagine the impact that such events had on survivors and how this affected their subsequent lives and their families. Imagine being forced from your homeland to places far away and having to learn new languages and ways to survive while carrying such pain within you.  It is for their sake, that we reject any effort to whitewash or dilute Turkish responsibility.  The worst of the worst was done to my ancestors by the ancestors of Turks living today and I am looking to them to make reparations and compensations to Armenians because they are the ones who directly benefited from the crimes their ancestors committed.  Armenians will never give up their struggle for Turkey to face its responsibility to us and to mankind.

  1032. It all boils down to this…After more than a decade of requests, stop being such cowardly denialists and finally agree to debate us in an open public forum with full media coverage!! Then we can stop this constant nonsense on all of these sites! Turkey’s PM is already on record as saying that Turkey will accept and abide by whatever is found jointly by the historical commission (odd how Armenia’s president Sarkissian refused to make such a statement). I’m sure that ANCA and ATAA can arrange such a debate. And please, no more lame excuses!

  1033. Robert 
    How can we accept you
    If you deny your real name
    Changing to English.
    There is no Turkish Roberts
    Either you are not a Turk 
    Or you have mixed genes…
    If you are honest 
    Send us your answer 
    All is free…! 
    Then we will respect what you write
    From your heart 
    Not because you were paid…

    SP

     

  1034. Robert, did you miss school the day they taught that one plus one equals two?  A nation lives in one place on this earth for 4000 years and in the span of about three years they are virtually wiped from their homeland and you need a public debate to know the truth? Take your blinders off.  You are in complete denial.   Armenians didn’t migrate like marauding hoards abandoning their homeland to establish new homes in someone else’s land like your ancestors who came from the Altai.  They were driven out, without protection or provision, and in a matter of days your CUP government filled their homes with Muslim families because they never intended them to come back.

    Get yourself a strong cup of coffee and open your eyes.  Stop demanding that the truth be proven when it was already determined long ago.  There is none so blind as he who will not see. 

    May God receive your brother’s soul and may he give you time to save yours. 

  1035. Boyajian, As a psychologist you can even sympathize more than others the horrors and the dilemma that the poor martyrs felt as well as the orphaned nation who became paralyzed for many years to come – not only with physical pains and adjustments in a new country – but the psychological pains that befell them and even to their offsprings; the entire nation who were miraculously lucky enough to survive the Genocide.

  1036. I read in news paper today,
    that Turkey is inviting rich Arabs to come and buy lands in Turkey. 
    I wonder which lands are selling to them…
    Our grandparents lands which doesn’t belong to them…! 


    SP

     

  1037. My great aunt with her 5 children was burnt alive in her own house in Moush.This nightmare did not leave my grandad/her brother until his death.

  1038. Boyajian,do not worry about Robert,as he is competing for his place as the last genocide denier on display at Dzidzernagapert Genocide Memoria & good luck to him.

  1039. Robert, the enthusiastic little demon parrot of the Official Turkish nationalist line, says that all that is needed is a wee teeny debate. Let’s unpack this chestnut:

    1. Part of the propaganda scheme Kemalists and AK-ists agree on is to portray the AG as something reasonable people can disagree on.  Establishing an alleged “controversy” is the goal, and has been the goal for several years. 

    2. Tiny parrot says that Erdogan has agreed to abide by the results of a court case.  There have already been court cases at tribunals run by Turks establishing the intentional murder of Armenians, but putting that to one side, if Erdogan agrees to cede the private and public lands in Turkey to Armenia and Armenians if a neutral tribunal establishes Genocide, I’ll pay the filing fee.

    3. I challenged the porcine islamized Greek Kirlikovali, now the ATAA chief, to debate me for a 50k purse to be judged by a retired justice of the California Court of Appeal. He never took me up on it.  Just like he never showed up for the refereed boxing match I proposed. 

    By the way, Robert has posted numerous hilarious posts on Turkish Forum tossing around pseudo military language  and hinting at his many Turkish special operator commando pals. 

    Are they good customers at the Kebab King? 

  1040. Ragnar if I did not know you better (the hidden denialists that you are) and that will never change unless I truly feel there is change (meaning genuine and utter recognition of Genocide by you) but your statement to the notorious Lady Denialist Monastras is very true.. so if you know CUP/Turkish govt had their bloody hands and great motivation to kill and wipe out a nation, why are you still confused about it?

    Yes, the situation was catastrophic for the Turks, but aren’t we discussing whether the CUP launched an extermination campaign or not? If the situation was that bad for Turks, doesn’t that mean that the CUP had an extra motive for cleansing or killing the Armenians whom they obviously  regarded as illoyal? In any criminal investigation you look for a motive. And the CUP had a motive, didn’t they? People often commit crimes when they are in a difficult situation, even one for which they themselves were in part responsible,  but the crime is the crime all the same. And the Turkish government has never raised the issue of what happened in Bulgaria, Macedonia and the Caucasus with the governments of today. But the Armenians have been knocking on the dors  of the world’s countries and international institutions like the UN and the EU for years. They deserve a better answer than the one you provide.

  1041.  Boyajian jan… please be gentle.. Robert is in a very fragile mental state.. we don’t want to scare him…

    but then again Robert who claims he has changed shows NO SHRED of improvement taken from his recent comment and of course his last many many comments on several other threads…on the contrary.. he has been calling us devil worshippers, and people who nauseats him, spirits, non-existant… ect..ect… so I guess you are just fine Boyajian jan… you are more than fine.. you are absolutely right…

    Gayane

         

  1042. ‘ I challenged the porcine islamized Greek Kirlikovali, now the ATAA chief, to debate me for a 50k purse to be judged by a retired justice of the California Court of Appeal. He never took me up on it.’

     Three cheers for jda. 

    {Denialist Turk cowardly behaviour is not surprising. The cowards  hid and lied  to avoid being served (Alex Bakalian et. al vs. Republic of Turkey, the Central Bank of Turkey, and T.C. Ziraat Bankasi et. al)}.

  1043. JDA jan.. you might not know this but Robert the Turk has been harassing me for a debate .. not sure what he wants to accomplish by that.. He finally dropped this histerically hillarious debacle of debating with me who does not have the creditentials to debate on such topic.. i am not a govt paid agent like he is, nor a govt official, nor a historian nor a professor..so him trying to push his nonsense of “so called debate” and his manliness over a woman is pretty much histerical… 

    thank you or breaking it down for Robert that there is nothing to debate about.. Genocide happened and there is nothing his little denialist’s brain can produce to prove otherwise…. these denialists got some face to push down their lies through in everyone’s throat… they have to be persistent and annoying otherwise they have no strong ground to stand on.. and will drown in the quicksand…

    Gayane

  1044. one thing to do is simply to ask questions, as Sassounian did when Davutoglu was in the US. But to raise a debate I would ask the Turkish Historical Association, Kemal Cicek and others. He is interested in  debating as far as I know.

    Robert

    why dont YOU debate some of the centrasl points here regarding some of the most discussed points about the events of 1915   

  1045. Dear VTiger, I know what you mean my compatriot, mine yours and our whole wonderful civilized nation were barbarically and atrociously murdered along with losing our more than 5,000 yrs old lands that we were the indigenous people of those lands from time immemorial, and today the beasts are contemplating how to cover up their grandparents horrific and horrible murders.  It is more than disgusting, it is continuing the Turkish premeditated Genocide to the entire Armenian civilian nation.  Our time will come that we shall claim our own homeland again!!!!!

    JDA jan, I am so proud of you!  You are a real man and a boxer?  Good for you.  Your mother fed you and brought you up right!!!!

    Gayane jan, Our Boyajan knows best, she knows how to handle the denialist Roberts of this sometimes evil world.  She knows!  In the meantime lets continue our inputs, they are certainly beneficial for our cause.  “Gyanke baykar e” my dear friends.      

  1046. ragnar naess,      how many Turks have you seen on these pages who are honestly willing to debate—not deny or distort—the AG issue, and do so remorsefully?  Virtually none.

  1047. Rangar Robert the Turk can’t debate with people who have higher credientials and knowledge than him…. he knows if he does, they will fold him in 10 ways and put him aside.. which is why he kept pushing his BS debate matter on me…

  1048. boyajian
    YOU WRITE
    Ragnar, thanks for carrying on this matter-of-fact dialogue with Monastras, asking her to recognize the prejudice with which Armenians were treated by the CUP. 

    COMMENT: I believe there is a need both to argue matter of fact and to express emotions, sorrow, despair, even hate. One should only attempt to know when one is doing what. For my sake, I hold on the matter of fact discussion, because an aspect of this is what is reasonably documented beyond doubt and what  is not  YOU WRITE:  Thanks also for acknowledging the horror of what the Armenians experienced.  COMMENT: I have tried to convey this but probably I am not able to do it fully. YOU WRITE: I am sorry that you had nightmares after reading about them, but just imagine what those who actually witnessed and lived these events must have felt.  Imagine the impact that such events had on survivors and how this affected their subsequent lives and their families. Imagine being forced from your homeland to places far away and having to learn new languages and ways to survive while carrying such pain within you.  It is for their sake, that we reject any effort to whitewash or dilute Turkish responsibility.  The worst of the worst was done to my ancestors by the ancestors of Turks living today and I am looking to them to make reparations and compensations to Armenians because they are the ones who directly benefited from the crimes their ancestors committed.  Armenians will never give up their struggle for Turkey to face its responsibility to us and to mankind. COMMENT: Well, I believe people who go honsetly into the Armenian situation should have nightmares if they are human beings. You should not give it up.
     We now see aspect of the same in Norway, only of course on an extremely restricted scale. There was one man some weeks ago who wrote in the paper that he is a aware of the suffering of alle others, indeed the whole of mankind at times, but that he is constantly haunted by the images of the scared youths running around on the tiny island with the cold-blooded murderer in their heeels. He writes in the paper to share the burden that the images and thoughts of this haunts him. There is also a great attention on the traumas of those who survived, maybe seeing others be shot. A particular image haunts me: after having cleared the whole place and documented everything, the police annlounced that the parents and siblings of the killed could come and see the place where they were killed, put flowers or arrange some private commemoration to grieve. A pair of parents went to the beach at one place where their daughter had been killed, apparently standing in the shallow water (many of the children ran to the beaches because there were some people who came in boats and tried to save them, even if they occasionally were shot at. When the parents stood there, they noted something glistening in the sand, and it turned out it was a piece of a jaw with teeth. It must have been washed ashore afte the thorough investigation of the forensic medicals. It was taken to the dentists and it turned out that it was a piece of the jaw of their daughter. I have daughter of 15 myself, who is in the age group of many of the victims. She had friend who were there, even some who were wounded.  So this thought is almost unbearable and it does not leave me.  We also have the question of the traumas of the 600 survivors and their parents. I do not say that I understand your pain because the catastrophy that befell your grandparent generation was immeasurably greater. But the horrors of Utøya provides me with a means to envisage the Armenian plight. I am afraid to say this, because you may again misunderstand or accuse me of “equalizing”. I only wanted  to say it, maybe for my own sake

  1049. Honest debate? A debate has usually two sides by definition.  For many of you even the mere presence of another side or point of view is blasphemy, so what honest debate?  How can you have one when any serious “threat” to the party line is severely censored out? At least lets be honest about that.  That would be a good start.

  1050. gor

    YOU WRITE
    ragnar naess,      how many Turks have you seen on these pages who are honestly willing to debate—not deny or distort—the AG issue, and do so remorsefully?  Virtually none.

    ANSWER: Well, I think Rober’s sharing the pain of his brother is one step towards recognising the crime committed against the Armenians. By recognising and sharing one’s own pain – and especially here in AW – there is a possibility of sharing the pain of others. Regarding “denying” it can be understood in several ways – sorry again for my concern with language and the exact words and expressions – to deny may simply mean to say that something is not the case, to disagree. I will not criticise this. If Turks disagree but want to know more and debate, we must applaud it. Indifference is the worst. But if people use formulas that evidently means that they do not go into the question this is denial as a kind of obstinacy and trying only to stick to one version, not listen to arguments, not listen to what others say, this is denial in a negative sense. Regarding “distort” I dont know if you mean “knowingly distort” or not. I believe the Turks who appear here do it because they care about the issue and choose to argue with Armenians. I cannot judge to what extent anybody here is sincere or follows a programme. It is impossible to ascertain as long as we do not know each others better. So I will not judge the Turks that participate here, only discuss with them, which I believe is important. But I disagree with them.
       

  1051. gayane

    YOU WRITE
    so if you know CUP/Turkish govt had their bloody hands and great motivation to kill and wipe out a nation, why are you still confused about it?

    COMMENT:

    read again what I wrote to Monastras, Gayane. Am I saying what you say I am saying? I am asking Monastras to consider some ARGUMENTS. And I say the Armenians deserve a BETTER ANSWER. Because  I am not sure they had this genocidal intention, but they certainly had the responsibility for what happened and for trying to bury the issue and evade the question afterwards. the facts of the catastrophy, the consequences and the moral debt of Turks is the main thing for me.   
      

  1052. Murat,        we haven’t seen you or any other Turk posting on these pages presenting ‘another point of view’ as to what you honestly think had happened to the Armenian poopulation of the Ottoman empire. It is not your presence that is blasphemy; it is your entering this site with denialist and distortionist viewpoints that is deplorable. As much as one can disagree with many things that ragnar naess is saying, he at least debates them. Whether he does this honestly or follows a program, we’d never know. Turks don’t debate. They either lack comprehensive knowledge of the subject or intellectual capabilities or, most probably, know the subject but follow a cheap distortionist agenda. You want to have a good start? Let’s have it and see if your allegation that you viewpoints pose a ‘threat’ to the party line and are censored out. Answer: what you think has happened to the 2-2.2 million Armenians of the Ottoman empire?

  1053. ragnar naess,       you say: “I think Robert’s sharing the pain of his brother is one step towards recognising the crime committed against the Armenians.”  I think you’re gravely mistaken. This is a part of Turks’ stealthy party line that is essentially denialist and distrotionist, namely: “everyone has suffered”.  Whereas they know full well that Armenians never inflicted sufferings on the Turks so that Turks would forcibly abandon their ancestral lands in Central Asian steppes or be murdered, raped, and mutilated en masse.

  1054. There are problems on all sides of this discussion, as it veers off-track into territory that is only peripherally important. For Armenians, it makes no sense whatsoever to discuss endlessly the minute details of past history that you cannot change. This kind of repetition is just plain weird. How many times do we need to hear that Turks invaded and conquered?  That’s an old story…yawn. But for Turks, the idea that they can and would refuse to acknowledge a much more recent history of Turkish sponsored ethnic cleansing that escalated to the level of genocide, and that affected (or ended) the lives of many relatives whose descendants read this paper is also absurd, because it is not ancient history.

    I think we might want to ask how anyone of any intelligence can so casually overlook such overwhelming evidence and a mountain of factual material.  It seems to happen only in Turkey. Perhaps the real reason for this refusal to honestly acknowledge what happened to the Anatolian Armenians and disavow genocide altogether has another component?   Today, Turkey feels very threatened by another ‘restive’ minority…the Kurds. Over the last 30 years, the government has killed tens of thousands of Kurds and has leveled to the ground at least 3000 Kurdish villages, where we now know, many converted Armenians had been living since 1923.  By refusing to disavow genocide forever, there is a good chance that Turkey is reserving the concept for use in the future. Horrific thought, isn’t it?  They’ve already crossed the border to bomb Kurds in Iraq…and, no one has stopped them. This alone should give us, and any humanitarian Turk, reason to pause and reflect on the pain this has caused…not to Armenians, but to their fellow Muslims. So, it seems that religion does not protect anyone from nationalistic Turkish wrath…Only subscribing to the supreme concept of being ‘Turkish’, in the Ataturk manner, can do that, it seems.  This is why Kurds are not alone…neither Arabs nor Persians will ever submit to Turkish arm-twisting today, either.

      

      

       

          

  1055. gor
    possibly you are right, possibly not.  But if you believe that Turks on these pages follow a stealthy party line, then I undersatand that you do not communicate and even warn other Armenians about it.
    I dont believe it. Anyhow I will not comment on other participants in this forum
     

  1056. Karekin,      the past cannot be ‘peripherally important’ to either the present or the future. The past–whether ancient or recent–to some degree determines and explains the present. Past history—such as Turkish invasions and conquers of Asia Minor with Armenian Plateau, Middle East, Arabia, and Eastern Europe—cannot be changed, but it comes handy when someone tries to equalize the fate of Turks who were expelled from the lands they invaded and colonized with the fate of Armenians who were expelled from their own lands and mass exterminated as owners of those lands, not as occupiers and colonizers. You’re fatally wrong if you think past history that we cannot change plays no role in advancing justice for the Armenians in the modern times. It is not the determinant, of course, but it does us a great favor in substantiating our demands. If we allow ourselves to yawn at past history, we may soon run the risk of using terms such as ‘Anatolian Armenians’ as you did, instead of ‘Western Armenians’ or ‘Armenians of the Armenian Plateau’ or ‘Armenians of Asia Minor’, as we were known throughout the millennia before Turks invented ‘Anatolia’ and conflated it with the Armenian Plateau.

  1057. ragnar naess,       I agree, I normally ignore Turks posting here, although I recall replying a couple of times. I have a sense that most of them come here to deny and distort, not debate or remorse.
     
    P.S.     Where did you see my warning or a remote indication thereof for other Armenians to not communicate with the Turks?

  1058. No Gor, you’re wrong. An obsession with one aspect of the past is a very flawed way of looking at it, because you want to use it for your own purposes. We’ve had lots of conquerors, but this obsession with the last one seems to ignore all the others of the previous 1000 years. Their obsession with ignoring ethnic cleansing and genocide – things which happened  within the current historical record and memory of those still alive today, is equally wrong, and frankly worse…it is stupid. The point being that we don’t need to rehash ancient history, anymore than they need to overlook recent history. The historical record of both is quite vivid and real, but discussing the Seljuk conquest as if it were yesterday isn’t likely to force anyone to admit to the genocide. It’s just noise.  Keeping the discussion focused carries a lot more weight, especially if you want them to see what you see.   

  1059. ‘For Armenians, it makes no sense whatsoever to discuss endlessly the minute details of past history that you cannot change.’
    Clearly, this statement itself makes no sense: neither Armenians nor anybody else can change past history.
    Yet lots of highly educated people, including non-Armenians,  endlessly discuss what processes led to the fall of theRoman Empire, for example.
    Or the contribution and positive effects of ancient Greek civilization on today’s Western Civilization.  So, it makes perfect sense to endlessly discuss minute details of past history. It has many practical benefits, over and above intellectual one.
     
     
    ‘This kind of repetition is just plain weird. How many times do we need to hear that Turks invaded and conquered?  That’s an old story…yawn.’
    Actually not only it is not weird to repeat it, but NOT to constantly repeat it and refresh people’s memory and sweep it under the amnesia rug would be weird.
    There is a very well organized ongoing campaign  by Turks and their Turcophile agents to  gradually erase any traces of indigenous  Armenians, Greeks, and Assyrians, and create some kind mythical nonexistent  ‘Anatolian Man’ ethnos – the goal being to eventually convince the world that Turks did not invade from Altai Mountains regions, that Turks did not invade from the Mongolian  Steppes (….love repeating the phrase “Turks Invaded”….), but they are indigenous to our Armenian Highlands and Asia Minor.
    Armenian Highlands will be changed to Turkish Highlands. Mount Ararat will be changed to  Ağrı Dağı (sic).
     
     
    Turks must be reminded endlessly that they are invaders, that they are living on expropriated land – until they acknowledge the AG, the extermination of Greeks, Assyrians, and the wanton destruction  of indigenous Christian civilizations.
    Turks must be reminded endlessly that they are invaders, that they are living on expropriated land – until Recognition, Reparations, and Return.
    Keep repeating to yourselves Turcophile agents until it hurts: Recognition, Reparations, and Return….. Recognition, Reparations, and Return.
    That’s what you’ll hear from us Armenians endlessly: we enjoy repeating it.
     
     
    The idea is to make Denialist Turks’ lives very, very uncomfortable – hopefully unbearably miserable.
    And no,  we are not impressed by your thinly veiled warning….’ By refusing to disavow genocide forever, there is a good chance that Turkey is reserving the concept for use in the future. Horrific thought, isn’t it?’
    The trusting, naïve Armenians of 1915 are no more. Turks tried it already via their Azeri-Tatar proxies: it didn’t work out too well for them, because today’s Armenians – fortunately – have learned from the endless repetition of minute details of past history.

  1060. Ragnar, the massacre in Norway was an enormous tragedy that I am sure impacted your entire nation.  It affected parents here in the States when considering letting there children attend certain events away from home.  Without equalizing events, you can be sure that Armenians, as well as most decent people everywhere, shuddered at the senseless slaughter of the innocent.

    How sad it would be, if after all Armenians have suffered, we are unable to share the pain of others.  We don’t claim a monopoly on pain and in truth we should use our experience to fight against oppression everywhere.  God has certainly given us first hand knowledge of the horrors men can do to each other and we are perhaps more equipped than some, as Armenian Christians, to understand that good can only triumph over evil when we stand up against it.

    By now  you must understand that denial of genocide is an evil that all good people should object to and that is why any attempt to dilute the Armenian tragedy in a stew of other world tragedies is a mistake.  It is a crime that has yet to be paid for and we are determined that justice be done.  At least in Norway, the guilty man has been caught and will face the consequences.  This will bring some peace to those who lost loved ones as well as to those whose sense of safety was tested by the shootings.  We simply seek a restoration of our peace, a proper mourning for our dead, and to see the guilty party pay, not profit, from their crimes.   

    I hope you will hesitate in the future before trying to explain to us the CUP/Ottoman Turkish psychology regarding the Armenian genocide.  We know the insanity that was unleashed on us!   No amount of oppression elsewhere, and stressors at home, excuses Turkey from facing the consequences of having wiped an ancient nation from its homeland.  Turks today should bow their heads at this knowledge and others should help them restore there honor by requiring that they do the right thing, not provide explanations to the descendants of those who were slaughtered of why the ancestors of todays Turks “murdered a nation.” 

    This is not said out of hatred for Turks, but out of a determination that evil doesn’t win and that the hatred against Armenians that still exists in Turkey today is exposed for the evil that it is.

  1061. Karekin,       “An obsession with one aspect of the past is a very flawed way of looking at it, because you want to use it for your own purposes.”  Demonstration of (not obsession with) the historical fact that Turks never belonged in Asia Minor and the broader region before Seljuk invasions of the 11th-12th centuries, helps readers understand that Armenians have become victims of genocide being indigenous and sedentary people. Whereas Turks expelled from Europe, Middle East and Arabia were descendants of occupiers. If we don’t demonstrate this, Turkophiles like ragnar naess will periodically come up and say: “well, Armenians were deported from Anatolia, and Turks were deported from the Balkans.” Sounds familiar? Read: “everyone has suffered”, whether indigenous or invader.
     
    “We’ve had lots of conquerors, but this obsession with the last one seems to ignore all the others of the previous 1000 years.”  Because none of the past conquerors had deliberately exterminated Armenians as a national, ethnic, racial, and religious group and had driven them out from their historical natural habitat.
     
    “The point being that we don’t need to rehash ancient history, anymore than they need to overlook recent history.”  The two are strongly interconnected in that not only were the Armenians mass slaughtered, but the very ancient homeland of the Armenians, invaded and colonized by the Turks, was erased from the face of the Earth.
     
    “The historical record of both is quite vivid and real, but discussing the Seljuk conquest as if it were yesterday isn’t likely to force anyone to admit to the genocide. It’s just noise.”  It is not the determinant factor in forcing the Turks to admit to the genocide, of course, but it serves as a constant reminder as to how the early Turkish invasions and conquests have ended: with the creation of a new Turkish homeland by means of genocidal extermination of the natives and Turkification of their cultural legacy, toponyms, structures, theft of property, etc.
     
    “Keeping the discussion focused carries a lot more weight, especially if you want them to see what you see.” This is what I do, but when a Turkophile attempts to equalize expulsion of occupier Turks from the Balkans and forced deportations and mass murders of the Armenians from Eastern Asia Minor, here’s where ancient history steps in.
     
    P.S.   In a top U.S. university a political science professor received a large sum from a renowned grant-making institution to conduct a fundamental study of the causes of the fall of the Roman Empire. Why do you think a modern country would rake through ancient history?

  1062. Avery,

    Tick-tock, tick-tock!!! I’d start becoming a tad concerned if I were all of you! Soon we’ll all see how much you all love saying “reparations, etc.” Stay tuned.

  1063. So, as today’s Armenia empties out of people, how exactly do you propose to turn back the clock of history? Yes, of course, people – mostly academics – discuss and analyze the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the Russian Empire, the Greek Empire, the Assyrian Empire, even the Ottoman Empire…but no one seriously advocates a return to any of those periods – precisely because it can’t happen and it shouldn’t.  The problem is, if you are constantly looking behind you, you won’t see where you are going.  Instead, you miss the present and how to capitalize on it, improve over the past and reap the benefits that come from it. Yes, of course, Turks need to have a better, more honest look at history, without smokescreens and anti-Armenian propaganda, but preaching to the choir in an Armenian publication only goes so far. Does it reach those in Turkey? Let’s hope so, but even if it does…it won’t change the course of history or the past. That must come from within. And, the real point of mentioning Turkey’s refusal to acknowledge the Armenian genocide had more to do with Kurds at this point in time, because if they refuse to disavow the practice, it seems to me they can very well revert to it in the future. So please, don’t misinterpret or mischaracterize my words. And, by the way, many conquerors attempted to destroy Armenians with population exchanges, just check your history. It wasn’t just the CUP….they were the just latest in a long line, and unfortunately, the most effective.

       

  1064. Here we go:

    – There never were 2-2.5M Armenians in the whole of the Ottoman Empire.  The very Armenian church records and actual Ottoman census put that figure at about 1.3M. This is not a point of view by the way, but real fact.
    – Then the question is what happened to the 1.3M Armenians of the Ottoman Empire in its dying days?
    – Talat Pasha’s own records indicate that about 700-800K Armenians were subjected to forced evacuations. There is a very good chance that not all those destined for relocation actually made it and either some escaped or were hidden by their neighbors.  Are you with me?
    – Now, at the end of WWI, missionaries and foreign observers in Russian Armenia reported about 400K refugees from Asia Minor.  Still with me?
    – Maybe about 200-300K Armenian refugees had made it to what is today Syria and Lebanon. These places are no longer within Turkey’s borders.  Following this?
    – Foreign and Turkish reports indicate that over 200K Armenians remained in Turkey around 1919. 
    – Now a little algebra shows that 1.3M-900K is about 400K.  One can also assume a large number may have also escaped Turkey through its Western ports and cities during the conflict.
    – All this indicates that close to 300K Armenians perished in Asia Minor as a result of forced marches, famine, disease, banditry, outright murder, ethnic violence, battles and war, and yes, inter-Armenian violence.
    -Strangely enough, this tragic number is very close to the claim often made by the Turkish establishment.  All these are approximations of course, but you get the picture.

    Hope this has helped you solve the mystery of 2.5M Armenians vanishing from the Ottoman Emoire.

  1065. You need not get a tad, a little, or a lot concerned Robert oglu, for the simple reason that you are not us: you never can be and never will be. We are not concerned. So you can relax and play with your puppy. It’s  good Karma, Turk-oglu.

  1066. gor

    I cannot find the place you suggested not to discuss with turks. Sorry, I was probably mistaken. Have a good day!

    Boyajian

    No, we still disagree, but I hope we understand each other a little better. About explaining the psychology of the Turks of 1915 to Armenians: I understand that you react negatively to it. But As I said to Gayane a crime is a crime even if there are explanations of it. I have said this many times. On the other hand, the question naturally is asked: How did they come to do it? This is a natural question to be asked. I tried to answer it and was repeatedly asked to clarify.  So I clarified more. Third, if you aim at getting anywhere, argue with those you disagree with, at least if you cannot fight them with arms and the rest of the world is not willing to empose a kind of moral embargo on them. We are dependent on the continued interest from Turks who feel they have to answer the charges. I have some Turkish friends who simply dont care. In changing people you have to start with their own motivations if you cannot force them. You know this as a psychologist. Turkey has today a long way to go to relate honestly to its past.When we discussed about the ceremony at Sourp Khatch in 2010, I said that an important task is to discuss with Turks who are interested in discussing. People we perceive to try to listen and give arguments. Discussions here or preferably In Turkey. You seemed to agree. Then regarding my turkish friends here in the AW. So far I had one discussion with Murat more than one year ago which made sense to me, and I also experience the discussion with Monastras as a real discussion. I wait for her answer. I wait for Robert to come with something new. Now Murat is here again with an attempt at chartering Armenian mortality in 1914-1919.  This is a theme that has to be adressed. I will try to answer him. But I see a lot of both Turks and Armenians here simply throwing shit at each others. Dont you get tired of it? As I have said many times this does not apply to you and Karekin. I also respect gor. I am fond of Gayane. I never regret being here in spite of all the shit thrown at me personally. I can take it. I believe in PROLONGUED DIALOGUE, which I believe you also do, Boyajian, if that is you real name. Otherwise you would not be here.        

  1067. All of those who are denying our genocide …
    Their grandfathers were involved in killing …
    They have our lands …our belongings
    They feel guilty and want to revenge from our site…
    So be aware…
    The best thing to ignore them all…
    I would like to say there is no Armenian home without orphaned grandparents
    Even Steve Jobs knew the story…
    So even 8 year student
    Who knows little math 
    He/She can count…

    SP 

     
     

  1068. Murat…the problem with Ottoman census records is that they were notoriously inaccurate for political reasons, but more importantly, only recorded males, no women and no children were included. This is why they are way off kilter.  So, citing those figures is only partially correct. When you add in women and children, the picture becomes more accurate and very different.  Let’s remember, there were only about 10 million people in all of Anatolia at that time. The population was roughly half Muslim (Turkish & Kurdish), and the rest overwhelmingly Greek and Armenian, with other, smaller groups.   

  1069. I think I answered your comment in full, Karekin.      No one here suggests turning back the clock of history. By discussing the social, political, and military threads of Armenia’s past we’re not ‘constantly looking behind us’, but acquire the skills to analyze those threads in the present. With history, we’re not only able to look back, but also gain an insight into where we’re going. Without history, it would be far more difficult to make the decisions necessary to move forward.

    P.S.   My history is long checked, and professionally so. There were conquerors who attempted to subjugate or succeeded in subjugating Armenia bringing destruction to our lands: Romans, Persians, Arabs, Seljuk Turks, Mongols, etc. There were a few who attempted population displacement, such as Shah Abbas I of Persia. However, in no period of our history were the Armenians deliberately destroyed as a race on government orders as during the rule of bloody assassin Abdulhamid and genocidal Ittihadists. Given the magnitude, the scope, the purpose, and the consequences of their crimes, Turks were one of the kind, not the latest ones, in cruelty and indescribable barbarity.

  1070. Murat,as usual your figures are wrong so there is no need to continue on reading your cooking recipe.
    Figures by the Armenian Patriarch of Constantinople from February 1913 to August 1914:[1][19]

    VilayetArmenian population

    Bitlis Vilayet
    218,404

    Sivas Vilayet
    204,472

    Erzurum Vilayet
    202,391

    Aleppo Vilayet
    189,565

    Istanbul
    163,670

    Ankara Vilayet
    135,869

    Mamuretülaziz Vilayet
    124,289

    Adana Vilayet
    119,414

    Bursa Vilayet
    118,992

    Van Vilayet
    110,897

    Diyâr-ı Bekr Vilayet
    106,867

    Trebizond Vilayet
    73,395

    İzmit Vilayet
    61,675

    Edirne Vilayet
    30,316

    Aidin Vilayet
    21,145

    Konya Vilayet
    20,738

    Kastamonu Vilayet
    13,461

    TOTAL
    1,914,620

  1071. A few more useful historical facts on population:  

    In 1844 the Ottoman government recorded a total of 2.4 million Armenians within the Ottoman EmpireAbdolonyme Ubicini, a French historian and journalist, was one of the first to publish the 1844 figure by adding that he considers it an underestimation of the total Ottoman Armenian population.[1] Ubicini states:

    It is difficult to form an exact estimate of the number of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire. The statement which I have given from official calculation and which raises the number to an average of two million and four hundred thousand, is only an approximate computation, and probably below the truth[…][1]

    The Armenians inhabiting Turkey in Europe are scarcely four hundred thousand, of which more than half reside in Constantinople, the others are scattered through Thrace and Bulgaria. On the other hand, Turkey in Asia contains not less than two million Armenians, the majority of whom still inhabit the ancient territory of their forefathers in the neighborhood of Mount Ararat; the three eyalets of Erzeroum, Diarbekir and Kurdistan contain many villages peopled entirely by Armenians, and in these provinces, notwithstanding frequent migrations, the Armenians preserve a numerical superiority over the Turkish and Turkoman races.[1]

    A 20th century Turkish professor, İbrahim Hakkı Akyol, also considers the 1844 census as an underestimation of the total Ottoman population because the taxes to be set for each vilayet and kaza would be based on the census result, and the population wanted to avoid them. In 1867 the 2.4 million figure remains unchanged, and was used by Ottoman official Salaheddin Bey in a book published on the occasion of the International Expositionin Paris. On the same occasion, an Ottoman Armenian official named Migirdich Bey Dadian gives a 3.4 million figure which the Ottoman government did not contest.[1]
    On the devastation of earlier, medieval periods:

    After many centuries of Turkish rule in Anatolia (at first the Seljuks, then the rule of a variety of Anatolian beyliks and finally the Ottomans), the centres with a high concentration of Armenians lost their geographic continuity (parts of VanBitlis, and Kharput vilayets). Over the centuries, tribes of Turks and Kurds settled into Anatolia and the historic Armenian land, which was left severely depopulated by the a slew of devastating events such as the Byzantine-Persian WarsByzantine-Arab WarsTurkish InvasionsMongol Invasions and finally the bloody campaigns of Tamerlane.[5] Owing to these events the composition of the population had undergone, ever since the second half of the medieval period, a transformation so profound that the Armenians constituted, over the whole extent of their ancient homeland, no more than a quarter of the total inhabitants.[6][7][8] Despite this they kept and defended factual autonomy in certain isolated areas like SassounShatakh, and parts of Dersim[citation needed]. An Armenian stronghold and a symbol of factual Armenian autonomy, Zeitoun (Ulnia) was located between the Six Vilayets and Cilicia, which also had a strong Armenian presence ever since the creation of the Principality (and then Kingdom) of Lesser Armenia. However, the destruction of the Kingdom by Ramadanid tribe and the subsequent rule of Muslim powers such as the Dulkadirids, the Mamluks and theOttomans led to an ever increasing numbers of Muslims in the region until finally the genocide removed the remaining vestiges of Armenians.
     

  1072. Armenian Population
     

    Vital Cuinet who researched the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire on behalf of the Debt Commission (because the Ottomans had to pay their debts to Europe), he reports the following: – Muslim: 14,856,118
    – Armenian: 1,475,011
    – Other Christians: 1,285,853
    – Jewish: 123,947
    – Foreigners: 170,822
    Total: 17,911,751
    The statistics by Vital Cuinet appear in the French Yellow Book and thus were accepted as the official numbers prior to the war. [9]
    1912-1913 – An Armenian, Marcel Leart states the Armenian population in Ottoman Turkey as 1,018,000 in all Turkish provinces of Erzurum, Van, Bitlis, Harput, Diyarbekir, Sivas. Marcel Leart’s real name was Krikor Zohrap.
    1913 – Ludovic de Constenson states that the Armenian population in the world is 3,100,000; in Turkey as 1,400,000; in Russia 1,550,000.
    Lynch states in his book that the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire was 1,325,246.
    Viconte de Coursons wrote in his book that he used Cuinet’s figures.
    Alexander Powell explains that the Armenian population in Turkey was 1,500,000.
    Christopher Walker states the Armenian population in Turkey was between 1,500,000-2,000,000.
    Clair Price reports that prior to World War I there were 1,000,000 Armenians in Turkey.
    1910 edition of Encyclopaedia Britannica states the Armenian population in Turkey:1,500,000. The article was written by a British author.

    Armenian Population Ottoman Census 

    In 1893: 1,157,519
    In 1905: 1,173,233
    In 1914: 1,294,851

  1073. “The Armenian church records and actual Ottoman census put that figure at about 1.3M. This is not a point of view by the way, but real fact.”     No, this is a point of view, because whereas the 1914 Ottoman census put the Armenian population size at about 1.3 mln, the Armenian Patriarchate of Constantinople records indicate almost 2 mln in the same year and most Western scholars believe the totality of the Armenian population prior to 1915 to be between 1.8 and 2.2 mln. To be added to this figure is the number of victims of the Hamidian (1894-96) and Adana (1909) massacres totaling up to 330,000. Although other estimates of the Patriarchate, as well as other Armenian sources, put the figure of the Armenian population at about 2,5 mln let’s settle one time for the sake of debate on Western figures and move on to the solution (which a denialist-turned-debater here calls a ‘mystery of vanishing’) that the Ottoman Turkish state found for its Armenian citizens.
     
    In contrast to the charade of vague phrases such as ‘may have be’, ‘a good chance of’, ‘one can assume’, etc., as well as Turkish algebraic calculations of the number of Armenians who perished (not massacred or killed, but just ‘perished’) that strangely enough coincided with the claim made by the Turkish establishment, let’s consider the following serious facts.
     
    The official Ottoman statistics for Armenian victims compiled for the period 1915-1918 were of 800,000 killed. This figure, the result of a commission formed by the interior minister Mustafa Arif, emerged from Djemal Pasha’s bureau and was published in the newspaper Takvimi Vekâyi in 1920. The same figure was mentioned in Rauf Orbay’s memoirs in which he reveals what Mustafa Kemal told him about the fate of the Armenians. During a conversation with the chief of the U.S. Military Mission to Armenia in 1919, Mustafa Kemal repeated the same number of 800,000.
     
    After the Turkish Courts Marshal ended, miraculously this figure of 800,000 was reinterpreted and no longer represented those ‘massacred’ or ‘killed’, but simply those who ‘perished’, a word that strangely enough our denialist-turned-debater uses. Interestingly enough are the phrases, such as ‘forced evacuations’, as if uprooting people from their places of origin is not a crime as such, or ‘those destined for relocation’ as if relocation to the sunny Syrian desert without food and water on foot for hundreds of miles was a destiny, not a governmental order. Or even more hilarious: ‘not all have actually made it [forced relocation] and either some escaped or were hidden by their neighbors’. How could silly Armenians not understand that forced relocation was their destiny and foolishly tried to escape or be hidden by their neighbors?
     
    While the official figure was of 800,000 massacred, Talat Pasha indicated the unofficial number of 300,000 in his records. However, there is no validity for this figure and how it was obtained. It is this figure that, indeed, is currently often used by the Turkish establishment. The Turkish logic in using an unofficial figure vs. their official figure is simplistic: the fewer victims the better chances for avoiding responsibility for the genocide.
     
    The official Ottoman statistics covered the period of 1915-18, but the genocide lasted up until the creation of their Turkish republic in 1923. What followed 1918 scholars have called the second phase of the Armenian genocide with up to 500,000 more Armenians massacred (Melson, Robert. Revolution and Genocide: On the Origins of the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust). Most of the Armenian victims in the period of 1918-1923 could be counted in remaining pockets in eastern provinces, Cilicia, and also in the massacres of Smyrna in 1922, in which estimated 25,000 Armenians were burned alive by ‘civilized’ Turks.
     
    These monstrous figures comprise of the official Ottoman statistics compiled for the period of 1915-1918 and the approximation of total number of victims during the second phase of the Armenian genocide that followed 1918 up until the burnings of Smyrna and the creation of the TR. They exclude however, tens of thousands of the Armenian soldiers in the Ottoman army exterminated in the early stage of the genocide, tens of thousands of those who perished during the forced deportation, as well as tens of thousands of Armenian women and children forcibly converted to Islam and assimilated into Turkish harems or families. If one adds up to 330,000 savagely massacred in 1894-1896 and 1909, the number of Armenians killed by the Turks may rise to up to 2 mln people for the period of 1894 to 1922.
     
    Based on these monstrous figures, it is not strange at all that a few hundreds of thousands of people out of total 1.8-2.2 mln (Western figures) escaped Turkish barbarism taking refuge in Russian Armenia or via the Middle Eastern countries or reluctantly staying in Turkey in constant fear of possible state persecutions on ethnic basis.

    Let’s finally consider the following statement: “close to 300K Armenians perished in Asia Minor as a result of forced marches, famine, disease, banditry, outright murder, ethnic violence, battles and war, and yes, inter-Armenian violence.”  We noted already the usage of the word ‘perished’, now lets’ concentrate on the causes of it.
    ‘Forced marches’: forced by whom?
    ‘Famine, disease, banditry’: permitted by whom and would these calamities occur if innocent people stayed untouched in their homes?
    ‘Outright murder’: murdered by whom?
    ‘Ethnic violence’: Armenians were already driven out of their communities. What ethnic violence?
    ‘Battles and war’: Where did these tale place? In the Armenia communities all of which were nowhere near the war zones or frontlines? Or en route to the Syrian deserts?
    ‘Inter-Armenian violence’: Is this the latest invention by the Turkish anti-genocide propaganda machine? Meaning, Armenians were killing Armenians? Is this the acumen of Turkish mentality and lucidity of Turkish mind?

  1074. Avery,

    Let’s see if you and the rest of your group will be singing the same tune after the next four months or so! Tick-Tock dude! Karma will definitely be biting a certain group in the rear then! Has the worm finally turned? Stay tuned.

  1075. “Tick-tock, tick-tock!!! I’d start becoming a tad concerned if I were all of you! Soon we’ll all see how much you all love saying “reparations, etc.” Stay tuned. “

    This is a lovely tidbit from the new, gentler and kinder Robert.

    No it’s not a threat!  Simply a warning, ‘lovingly’ given so that we will not be found unprepared.  

    Thanks, Robert!   Here’s one for you:


    Don’t be dumb, don’t be foolish, 

    Though your roots are somewhat ghoulish,

    Tell the truth, tell it quickly,
    Lest your face turn green and sickly 

    Truth is good, the truth will save you,
    Be smart now and behave, you!

    We wish you luck, we wish you well,

    Repent now, or go to …

    Well, you get the idea.

  1076. what’s so spacial about the ‘next 4 months or so’, Robert dudelu. (dude+oglu).
    Can you come up with any more lame cliches, dude ?  ‘ biting a certain group in the rear then! Has the worm finally turned? Stay tuned.’
     

    Trying to convince me you are not a Turk, hombre ?
    You have spent much time lately at a Dude Ranch, pardner ?
    Trying to re-bond with your nomadic horse-riding ancestry, are you ?
    Having pleasant dreams of riding wild horses  between your ancestral yurts in the Mongolian Steppes ?
    “You can take a Nomad  Turk to the city, but you can’t take the Nomad out of the Nomad  Turk”, eh, dude ? 

  1077. “Let’s see if you and the rest of your group will be singing the same tune after the next four months or so! Tick-Tock dude! Karma will definitely be biting a certain group in the rear then! Has the worm finally turned?” 

    Oh my, more good news from Robert!  

    One good turn deserves another:

    The worm goes in, the worm goes out,
    The worm will squirm and spell it out,
    “Truth be told, the guilty will pay,
    the oppressed and scorned will have their day.
    The time will come, the tick will tock,
    The end is near for the crowing cock!” 

  1078. Look…all census counts are not equal. If a government only counts ‘heads of households’, and others follow suit, it seems very clear that alot of people are not being counted. To the Ottoman authorities, each ‘head of household’ represented only five family members. There was also a vested interest in minimizing and downplaying the minority population, for rather obvious reasons. The other thing to remember is that the entire Ottoman empire was the umbrella, but the vast majority of Armenians lived in eastern Anatolia…in the Armenian vilayets. Anatolia itself was only about 10 million people, according to National Geographic of 1914. Half were Muslims of mixed ethnicities and the other half, Christians, of mixed ethnicities. There was no clear ethnic majority at the time. ‘Turks’ only became a majority after the importation of Muslims from the Balkans and the Caucasus, who then identified as Turks, but that was not until after 1923 – post genocide and post population exchange with Greece.

  1079. Murat Bey– here we go…at least you never seem to dissapoint… always on the target.. of having the most idiotic posts.. and the last one is no different… and when one writes such idiotic statements must be he biggest………. … well.. you get my drift?? you are with me? 

  1080. Robert or Roberts (again one color in one thread yet another color logo in another)… do you ever give up? it seems like stopped whining and bitching and complaining and now you are threatening us?

    oh another thing.. Avery said it very well.. YOU robert the turk will never be like us and THANK OUR JESUS CHRIST you are not… so instead of being cocky and too sure of yourself, i would think twice as to whether or not you should be so proud knowing where your genes are coming from….  

    Ragnar you were saying about Robert and him having the courage to share his personal loss and how that would make him understand the pain of others??????? do you still believe what you said about Robert or Roberts after The Turk’s open invitation of threat?????? 

  1081. Gor jan– Outstanding comments to karekin and the rest of the lost souls.. denialists…

    Avery jan– yes merel ei after I read your comment to Robert.. lol you are absolutely brilliant…:)

    Ananoon jan– LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE everything you wrote.. such clever and to the point poems.. amazing…     

  1082. Karekin- agghhhhhhhhhhhhhh.. seriously??? Just pay attention my child to what Gor said to you.. Gor broke it down very nicely… Gor covered it all.. as to why it is important to connect with history and not ignor it just because one does not believe in it…

    Avery also said it well where he said we will continue to repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat and remind and remind and remind and remind until the end of time…. now THAT IS A FACT… 

  1083. last night 25 Turkish soldier and police were murdered  by kurdish terrorists. some more than 10 wounded…

    pkk terrosit are said to be around 5000-10000. 

    if we kill all of those terrorists, and deport all kurdish in the region,  is this a genocide?

    Turkish people will wake up soon  and punish all of its enemies….the politics followed on the democratic basis  did not work…so….no  human right..REVENGE….! REVENGE….! REVENGE….!!!

  1084. Can our Sweet,Kind Psychologist Boyajian…
    Explain to Us 
    Why those denialist
    Use European names
    To reach and burn our sights
    After burning our artful genes
    In our lands and far…outside…!

    Sylva 
     

  1085. before John the Turk pastes made-up population figures copied from the notorious AG Denialist  site ArmenianGenocideDebate.com (yeah, right “debate”), he should apologize for implicitly threatening one of his Turk countrymen on these pages:

    {John the turk October 15, 2011 Does Mehmet Polatel know the fate of the treacherous
    people? Does he know what happened in Izmit?}
    Note: Mehmet Polatel is a historian who wrote the article about Adana Churches @AW recently. 

    No posting by someone who threatens one of his fellow Turks for what he or she wrote can possibly be taken seriously. If you are so tough, go and fight armed PKK guerrillas – instead of threatening someone whose only weapon is a pen (keyboard).

     

  1086. The Turkish author Kâzım Kadri asserted in 1920:  “During the reign of Abdul Hamid we lowered the population figures of the Armenians […] By the order of Abdul Hamid the number of the Armenians deliberately had been put in low figures.”

    Source:  Dadrian, Vahakn. Warrant for Genocide, in which Hüseyin Kâzım Kadri’s work Balkanlardan Hicaza: Imparatorlugun Tasfiyesi. 10 Temmuz Inkilâbı ve Netayici is cited.
     
    The prevailing majority of Western scholars and anthropologists believe the totality of the Armenian population prior to 1915 to be between 1.8 and 2.2 million.

  1087. The Turkish author Kâzım Kadri asserted in 1920:  “During the reign of Abdul Hamid we lowered the population figures of the Armenians […] By the order of Abdul Hamid the number of the Armenians deliberately had been put in low figures.”
    Source:  Dadrian, Vahakn. Warrant for Genocide, in which Hüseyin Kâzım Kadri’s Balkanlardan Hicaza: Imparatorlugun Tasfiyesi. 10 Temmuz Inkilâbı ve Netayici is cited.
     
    The prevailing majority of Western scholars and anthropologists believe the totality of the Armenian population prior to 1915 to be between 1.8 and 2.2 million.

  1088. “REVENGE….! REVENGE….! REVENGE….!!!”      These words were uttered by mass murderer Enver Pasha before embarking on mass extermination of the Armenians. Note, however, Armenians were ‘revenged’ for Turkish losses in the Balkans as a result of the national liberation struggle of the Balkan peoples.  Now, a 21st century Turk utters exactly the same words. Are we led to believe that Turkish Denialists nowadays and their savage Ittihadist forefathers in 1915 are two different entities?
     
    P.S.  The h*** with tens of thousands of Kurds massacred by the Turks earlier and some 3000 Kurdish villages wiped out from the face of the Earth. Turks are capable of seeing things only through Turkey-manufactured glasses. A primordial characteristic…

  1089. gor

    yes, these numbers you mention (1.8 to 2.2 million) sound reasonable and are close to what I have been saying from what I can glean from the surces. But 50% christians in the Ottoman Empire in 1914 sounds too high. I see Zurcher puts the percentage at 25%. But then the total was higher than 10 million. I diont have the book here as I am in Russia now

    gayane

    I dont know if you have ever been working with people in settings where there are many disagreements and high emotions ? Many of the reactions we see here, among Turks and among Armenians do not really surprise me. – If you look back in my posts you will find the place where I wrote that a crime is a crime even if it has some explanation     

  1090. I do not fight. Turkish soldiers also do not fight as they are peaceful soldiers. They peacefully go to heaven.

  1091. I stay religionless

    I stay Religionless…! 
    I want to know what 
    We benifited being Christian 
    Dedicating for christian faith…
     
    Building Churches 
    Without having bread to give our kin—
    As Ashoogh Jevani Sung.
     
    Building thousand and thousand Churches 
    To be desroyed by scavengers
    Where is god to see what slayers have done…? 
    Destroyed our civilization… 
    Old Ancient…The time when the Europe
    Where living in dark 
    Were faithless could not build churches 
    From carving stone by hands
     
    We build Domes after Domes
    To be vanished by so called human hands…
    Who created such hands…? 
     
    Where is their God…If they have one 
    To see what his scavengers have done…
    Scavengers’ god is Scavenger like them
    Our god is old and blind…

    What I shouting fore…

    Isn’t all true… 
     
    Sylva-MD-Poetry
    October 20, 2011

  1092. Gayane – the point is, none of those records or census figures were all that accurate at the time, but since we know the flaws of the ‘official’ Ottoman census system and why they minimized the Armenian population, it makes sense to highlight those flaws and bring them to the surface. We know that most Armenian households at that time usually included husband, wife, children, grandparents, aunts, uncles, etc. Often all under one roof or in one compound. If that family was 30 people, by official standards, it was counted as a maximum of 5, and therein lies a huge problem.

  1093. That’s it, Murat? This is how the Turks normally hold debates, according to your national characteristics?       You put a figure of Western Armenians at about 1.3 mln falsely asserting that both the Armenian Church records and actual Ottoman census agreed on it. I proved you wrong, as the Armenian Patriarchate in Constantinople put the figure at about 2 not 1.3 mln.  I then went further offering to be more specific regarding the circumstances that caused such huge loss of human life, but for the sake of debate, will repeat again:
     
    You stated that [1.3 mln (Ottoman census)—1.8-2.2 mln (Western sources)—2.5 mln (other Armenian sources)] Armenians ‘perished’ in Asia Minor as a result of several reasons below. Please specify:

    ‘Forced marches’.   Forced by whom and on whose orders?

    ‘Famine, disease, banditry’.   Famine and disease spread as a result of what conditions in which Armenian found themselves? Banditry permitted or not restrained by whom? And would all three calamities occur if innocent people stayed untouched in their homes?

    ‘Outright murder’.   Murdered by whom and on whose orders?

    ‘Ethnic violence’.   Most Armenians were already forcibly driven out of their multiethnic communities. How could ‘ethnic violence’ happen outside of these communities? And where could it happen? En route to the Syrian deserts?

    ‘Battles and war’.   What battles and where did they take place? What war and where did it take place since Armenian vilayets were nowhere near war zones or frontlines? En route to the Syrian deserts?
     
    ‘Inter-Armenian violence’.   Would be interested in enlightening myself as to what Armenian groups were violently fighting other Armenian groups and brought genocidal extermination of a nation upon their heads.

  1094. Yes Necati- we know your barbaric ancestral genes run through your blood.. so i am not surprised with your ‘REVENGE, REVENGE REVENGE” ranting…except guess what my genocidal physo friend, there is also a thing called HELL… and you are on your way there if you don’t stop acting like a maniac killer in making unless you already are.. i am afraid of our current and future generation when we have you in our socienty…

    Same goes to you John the Turk especially when you threatened your own.. YOUR OWN..
    John the turk October 15, 2011 Does Mehmet Polatel know the fate of the treacherous
    people? Does he know what happened in Izmit?}

     

    Not only genocidal comes to mind describing you denialists… but also another word comes to mind especially after John the Turks absolutely histerically hillarious comment of
    I do not fight. Turkish soldiers also do not fight as they are peaceful soldiers. They peacefully go to heaven.
     I am sorry to burst your “out of space” bubble John the Turk, who has no problem threatening his own, but unfortunately Turkish soldiers are not peaceful soldiers and there is only one way for them and you denialists.. a place that is VERY VERY HOT and VERY VERY red.. you are with me???

    Have a nice and peaceful day..

    Gayane  

  1095. Ragnar-  Justification for Robert .. a rescue for your friends yet again… not surprised… you can’t come out and basically admit that your denialists buddies are here to create destruction, to destroy, confuse and manipulate everything that is going on … and you standing up for them is not a good sign..

    and no Ragnar.. this has nothing to do with working in situations where emotions run high and disagreements are inevitable (even though we have been dealing with you for all these time so i guess we do have an experience don’t we?) this has very well to do with denialists FLAT OUT admit how neo-Ottoman they are and how they are not afraid to openly share their intent on our pages… as you can see Ragnar, Armenians have shown NO direct threat nor  shred of violence nor idea of REVENGE as our notorious Necati stated here to any of the ordinary Turks.. on the contrary you have read numerous times how these nobodies threatened and play tricks like RObert the Turk  with his “tick tock” BS ..how they srtoll on our ages and pretend to be mighty and big.. but when challenged to speak freely and openly or better yet go do real fighting against what is more important, they chicken out like John the Turk who idiotically stated that he does not fight and that  Turkish soldiers don’t fight and they are peaceful…REALLY?? so I guess the Aliens are descending on Turkey and killing all the Kurds or it was the aliens who murdered most of my nation and for what?? because they were Christians and now the Kurds???.. oh I definintely see how peaceful they are.. what a joke…… but yet you continue to justify their actions.. what is wrong with you??

       
    To be honest with you.. I am not clear the point of you bringing up “crime is a crime” matter…that was not my issue with you.. my issue with you was, is and will be the fact that you try to put strings to what happened to Christians especially Armenians in the Ottoman era. I have repeatedly said GENOCIDE IS A GENOCIDE period.without you trying to put BUTs, IFs, ANDs, ORs, stupid compares or whatever else after it… …    

  1096. Necati,

    Your ignorance of the meaning of words is breathtaking. Please pay attention.

    There are 15M Kurds in Turkey. If the Turkish state kills or deprives millions of Kurds of their identity because of 10,000 rebels, yes, that is Genocide. If the deaths occur during deportations because the state conducts them in a way that causes mass casualties, yes that is Genocide. If the state sanctions, encourages, ratifies or orders unarmed Kurds to be murdered, yes that is Genocide. If the state then steals Kurdish property during Genocide, that is a crime. If it then tells the world and its own people no Kurds died, or Kurds never lived in Anatolia, or Kurds are Turks, these are crimes against humabity and truth.

    Bray all you want for revenge. Murder and rape Kurdish women because of your bloodlust, and you too will be a little Hamid, Talaat and Hitler.

  1097. While hard pre-1915 population numbers are important, they are hard to pinpoint accurately for a number of reasons. As a result, the real figure that should stand out in people’s minds is the PERCENTAGE of total Anatolian Armenians who were alive immediately post – 1915.  In reports issued at the time,  the number Armenians left in Turkey is often cited to be 25% or less of the original 2.5 million. By 2011, that number had dropped to fewer than 100,000, or less than 5% of their original numbers. If you support the CUP, the Kemalists and the ultranationalists, this is a probably seen as a victory. If you’re a member of humanity, this is evidence of one of the worst ethnic cleansing episodes in history…i.e., a major crime – done in full view of the world – also known as, genocide.  Good luck to the Kurds…as it clearly looks like they’re next in line, with nary a word from the leaders of the western world, once again.  Let’s just hope that history does not repeat itself in 21st C. Turkey.   

  1098. ‘last night 25 Turkish soldier and police were murdered  by kurdish terrorists. some more than 10 wounded…’  (emphasis mine)
     
     
    According to Turkish online news sites 24 Turk troops and gendarmes were killed and 18 wounded.
    “PKK kills 24 security members, injures 18 in Hakkari terror attacks ” (TodaysZaman headline)
    They were killed, not ‘murdered’. They were armed troops, in uniform, battling PKK guerillas in a military engagement.
     
     
    You ‘murder’  when you commit homicide of  unarmed, defenseless civilians and children.
    Like what the Anti-Armenian fascistic nationalistic Turks did when they committed Genocide against my Armenian ancestors.
    Turks who  had the same irrationally hateful, mis-directed revenge  mentality 100 years ago as you do today, in the year 2011, Genis oglu.
    {necati says: July 15, 2011 was not 1million killed by Turks, it was 10milyon…so what ?} (@Asbarez)
    {necati: August 20, 2011 sorry to tell you..i am not human , but a monster, a butcher, a pyschopat against you gaymenians…this is another reason for me to hate you gaymenians…}  (@AW)
     
     
    Denialist  Turks like you scream ‘REVENGE REVENGE REVENGE’
    Guess what pal, revenge is a two-way street.
    What do you think – after your ancestors murdered 2 million of my people, we are going to say “Thank you Sir, give me another ?”
     
     
    And no, Armenians are not going to initiate violence: we’ll just dance on the grave of the sclerotic, artificial  State of Turkey, after it dies a peaceful, well deserved death from the cancer that is spreading thru its body.
    We’ll just sit back and watch as PKK carves out a Kurdistan out of Turkey, and the artificial state of Turkey starts breaking  up.
    We’ll just sit back and watch as the West and Israel start the process of dismantling Islamist Turkey for being a mortal  threat to Europe and Israel.
    The process may have already begun. PKK is conducting more and more bold and successful operations inside  Turkey.
    What do you think, how were 200-300 PKK guerillas, carrying  heavy weapons, able to enter Turkey undetected, attack multiple targets simultaneously, kill 24 Turk troops, wound 18, and then slip back with hardly any losses of their own ?: maybe some powerful outside forces helped them with logistics and intelligence  ?
     
     
    And don’t rely on the mythical prowess of your TSK.
    PKK guerillas killed 24 armed, combat-ready Turk troops and wounded 18 in a 4 hour fierce firefight, and suffered only 5 casualties.
    TSK is an antiquated, bloated, incompetent organization, whose officers parade around in impressive shiny new uniforms, but whose troops run away when PKK guerillas show up. Don’t believe me ?
    Here: {“Two [PKK] guys can appear and scare away 30 soldiers. This is a scandal. One soldier opens fire after seeing a shadow; others start firing at random and shoot one of our own in the forehead. Our situation is shameful.”} Care to guess who said that ?  Ex Turk Chief of Staff Gen. Koşaner’s  said that.
     
     
    You Genocidal Turks committed two  BIG  mistakes: First;  attempting to exterminate my people, and nearly succeeding.
    Second; not succeeding in exterminating my people completely. Enough of us survived to re-generate into 12 million worldwide.
    We are all over the world, getting wealthier and stronger politically –  year in, year out.
    We are a widely dispersed target: you Turks cannot land a knockout  punch.  You had your best chance in 1915, and blew it.
     
     
    You talk about REVENGE Turk-oglu  ?  Wait for it:  it’s coming. We are not going to let you  Genocidal Turks  murder 2 million of our own,  and then live happily ever after. You think we sit around doing nothing all day knowing full well  there are millions of Turks in the year 2011 that think exactly like you ?
    We are not the trusting, naïve Armenians of 1915 that were tricked into meekly  walking to their deaths….with  dead bodies on the sides of the roads as far as the eye could see.
    Every Armenian carries that image in their mind.
    Every Armenian is waiting patiently for The Day.
    There will be Hell to pay.

  1099. A response to Ragnar’s last comment addressed to me:

    The reason I react negatively to your explanations of the Turkish psychology which led to their genocidal actions against Armenians is because you appear to think we Armenians don’t know this already and because it seems you expect us to somehow alter our thinking once we are ‘enlightened.’  This strikes me as a bit of an arrogant miscalculation and says more about your own need to handle the cognitive dissonance created by knowing that your friends have a sinister past.   Armenians lived with Turks and experienced their leaders peculiar bent toward violent vengeance for centuries.  (This doesn’t mean I don’t acknowledge those Turks who acted with kindness and friendship toward Armenians.)  The genocide was only the most extreme expression of many such vengeful ‘lessons’ taught to us throughout the years of Turkish dominance.  

    You and I agree that these ‘explanations’ are not excuses. We agree that dialogue is important.  We agree that slinging **** at each other is not productive.  Say again what we disagree over?

    One thing I disagree with you on is your apparent fondness for Turkey in general.  While I may befriend individual Turks and feel genuine respect and affection for individual friends, I have a hard time respecting a culture/society which promotes convenient amnesia for its checkered past, practices official racism against other cultures, usurps the accomplishments of ancient peoples, and attempts to criticize other nations without honestly acknowledging its own dark past and present.  

    These politically incorrect statements may get me in trouble, but at least I base them on the reality of how Turkey conducts itself in the world.  Sorry, I am no fan of the thieves and brutes that have created this nation and still control much of it today.   And I feel sorry for the honest, peaceful Turk who must silently cringe when they hear and see some of the things done in their name.  A hand of friendship is extended to any Turk who is willing to face their past honestly, but I have little patience for those like Robert, Murat, Necati, John the Turk and Monastras, who stubbornly adhere to ideas of Turkish supremacy, victimization and paranoid hatred for anyone who might challenge them.

    You know that this doesn’t mean that I think Armenians never hurt a Turk, never said or did things that made Turks squirm.  But no amount of tensions between Turks and Armenians can be used to exempt Turkey from facing its responsibility for the genocide. No amount of massacres elsewhere against Turks can or should be highlighted to ameliorate the punishment that Turkey deserves.   While I respect your efforts to engage in eye-opening dialogue with Turks, I consider your endeavor to ‘explain’ to Armenians a waste of time.  Armenians are seeking justice, not explanations.  

    It might fascinate a historian to explain how genocidal mania can capture a country, but it doesn’t matter to me how Turks justify to themselves the despicable acts they committed and now minimize and distance themselves from.  As a psychologist, I understand that human beings are capable of extremes of good and evil, but I also understand the healing powers of truth and repentance on both victims and perpetrators.  As a citizen of the world, I understand the need to stand up against evil.   As an Armenian, I am willing to forgive Turkey when Turkey admits, apologizes and restores to Armenians what is theirs.  And as a person, I find your tolerance of deliberate denial and obfuscation very disappointing.

     

  1100. Until humane and democratic values become second nature
    to Turks, more murder is a sure thing. Turkey today
    is at least four generations behind the west in this regard.
    Civil rights and democracy will take hold two generations after
    the statecatips teaching racism in it’s schools.

    As late as 1960, Americans used terms like “kike” and “nigger”
    without shame or self consciousness. I heard a report today about a young Black man in 1953 who was the only Black student at LSU, where his teachers shunned him.
    It took three generations for those men to die out.

  1101. gayane

    I am not standig up for anybody. In this kind of debate we must simply give some people the benefit of the doubt, otherwise there is no use being here. there are some participants here that I do not debate with, but neither do I want to pronounce any verdict on them of the kind you mention “they are only out to create trouble”. I feel this  has been a problem all along, the need of participants to pronounce verdicts on each others(gee, I wonder if what I said now was not  a verdict…).  

    Then I dont understand how you can say that we do not deal with a situation in which emotions run high. Please explain.

    then you write :as you can see Ragnar, Armenians have shown NO direct threat nor  shred of violence nor idea of REVENGE as our notorious Necati stated here to any of the ordinary Turks.. on the contrary you have read numerous times how these nobodies threatened and play tricks like RObert the Turk  with his “tick tock” BS    

    comment: Yes, I conde,mn Necati’s words. Do you believe that the “tick tok” was a threat? Honestly I did not even understand him. But of course I have felt threatened from time to time. Some time ago there was one participant who said that “there is only one thing to do with deniers”. But I dont know what this person had in mind. He or she did not specify what, which is maybe why I felt it like a threat.
       

            

  1102. Boyajian

    I have not heard from you the last days. I feel bad about my remark “Boyajian, if that is your real name”. My apologies. 

  1103. Mr. Ragnar,

    it is said that more than 7500 security people have been murdered by terrorist PKK since 1984 Eruh.

    We are all aware of the support of France , Germany, Syria, greece to PKK.

    Their target is , as stated by so-called leaders of PKK, to divide Turkey in to pieces and set up another state as Mr. AVERY , the hero said too.

    What is going on in Turkey is an undeclared war.

    We naturally have the right  to do everything  for self -defence.

    Or, should we just watch our  boys killed by PKK and our mothers and little children cry  for ever? WHY? Because we are TURK? WHY? Because we are muslim?

    USA revenged by killing more than 1.000.000 people against 3000 died in twin town attack. Nothing to say? Then we will do same..i mean , we must.

    so…cutting off the heads of 5-10.000 PKK terrorists is  a way of punishment…in a war, the civilian losses is inevitable…

    Yes.. REVENGE…!

    Do you have a solution to solve terrorism in any other way?

  1104. great riposte, Boyajian  (‘A response to…’).
    One of your best. Much careful thought behind it. Crisp presentation.

    ‘As an Armenian, I am willing to forgive Turkey when Turkey admits, apologizes and restores to Armenians what is theirs (emphasis mine). 

    Well said. 

  1105. Ragnar, thanks for the apology.  I was not sure why you said it? It seemed hostile. Or was it your way of fishing for information?  Sorry, but I do continue to prefer to be known here only as Boyajian.  

  1106. Necati seems to be an Armenian made ‘most preferred Turk’ :-) well done by some nationalist Armenian freaks; at least you have something to debate.

    In meantime our condolences and prayer are with all earthquake victims and all soldiers that were killed through terrorist activities, and thanks to Armenia which offered help to Turkey today or yesterday.

  1107. Boyajian

    I dont fish for information. we have a debate now in norway about anonymous debaters. Of course debate is a good thing. According to classical democratic understanding the public should be informed and it should be in public debate. There are also certain values in not conceiling one’s identity. It has to do with being a person, having an opinion and standing behind it. But there is a growth of participators in virtual discussions, and people are concerned about participators who use abusive language (like some in our discussions). There is a proposal that these types of discussion fora to a greater extent should make it a rule that people are not anonymous, as it is in the main respected and traditional paper editions. – But although I am curious about you, it was not to try to get to know who you are, it was a general comment because I am irritated from time to time because of the great number of people who appear anonymously. Maybe I also felt vulnerable after my post on the impact of july 22 and so I lashed out. Anyhow, I felt the need to excuse my remark. By the way you have a long post on the question of “explaining the psychology of the Turks to Armenians. Again I believe I disagree with you. Maybe I will revert to it one day. 

  1108. necati

    What you say about the PKK is only half the story. The Kurds in the main never wanted to be part of the Turkish Republic. There was more or less martial law from  1925 until 1950. The language and the culture was to a great extent prohibited. Names for places were turkified.  Alevilik was suppressed. This is the kind of situation that produces rebellion, and it came. Nothing to be surprised about. Certainly the representatives of the Turkish republic were killed. Rather than talk about revenge I would look into the history of the Sinn Fein, the Herri Batsuna and other minority rebel movements. The Northern Irish were able to solve this, they now say that the Basque also will makew peace with the Spaniards withing common borders. Why cant Turkey do the same? 

  1109. Ragnar- and you want to continue to have a conversation with Necati??? have this person not demonstrate that she is not fit to have a human to human contact??? but it is up to you…

    You asked the following:
    Why cant Turkey do the same?
     
    I mean you should already know this after learning so much on our pages.. how TUrkey is not fit to appreciate democracy, humanity, human rights, peace and love… someone with your level of education and study of Turkey, I thought you would get it…

    You said to me:
    In this kind of debate we must simply give some people the benefit of the doubt, otherwise there is no use being here. there are some participants here that I do not debate with, but neither do I want to pronounce any verdict on them of the kind you mention “they are only out to create trouble”. I feel this  has been a problem all along, the need of participants to pronounce verdicts on each others(gee, I wonder if what I said now was not  a verdict…). 

    So what do you do when you give the benefit of the doubt and then the denialists and the Turkophile turns around and lashes out with even bigger insults/threats/nonsense? you seriously telling us that we need to give benefit of the doubt to these people?  Have we not done that already? and according to you, all these denialists that have been on our pages throwing up filth, threats and absoluely stupid remarks.. what do you call that? I PERSONALLY call that ” they are only here to create trouble”… you may not think so because you are so fond of your friends but please don’t come here and tell me that we pass judgement without justifications or as you say pronounce verdicts without good reasons….. and as you said “i feel this has been the problem all along”… well i am sorry to say but we care less what you feel.. the truth is out in the open..for everyone to see and come up with their own conclusion…

    Thank you for the historical explanation but the fact remains as Boyajian said very well:
     find your tolerance of deliberate denial and obfuscation very disappointing.
     I will also add that your tolerance of deliberate threats/rudeness/blunt outbursts by the denialists are not only very disappointing but very highly quesitonable…

    Thank you

    Gayane  
      

  1110. Boyajian jan-.. I agree with Avery jan.. one of your absolute Best posts… BRAVO…very concise and to the point with a strong come back.. apres qur jan…

    Avery jan-your post was as equally powerful and to the point. qez el shnorhavor.. loved it.. 

  1111. Thank you Avery!  

    Ragnar, you again mention that you ‘disagree’.  Can you please spell out very simply what you disagree with?   I know we don’t see eye to eye, but it is not clear to me what you disagree with in my recent post.  You may revert to what, please?  As for anonymous posters:  I understand your disapproval of this practice.  It is good for people to feel accountable for what they say.
      
    Anadolu, Armenians gladly help the people of Van.  Our hearts go out to them.

    Necati, I would like to  add to Ragnar’s comments to you about the PKK.  You seem to want to reserve for Turks what you won’t concede to Kurds.  Namely, ethnic pride.  Why shouldn’t a Kurd want to be a Kurd, speak Kurdish, practice Kurdish customs, etc.,?  The Kurds lived with suppression of their ethnicity for far too long.  They are rebelling.  This is their revenge for what Turkey has done to them.  It is a shame that you can not see this.  Peace could be so easy.  But Turkey loves her stolen lands and uneven power structure too much to understand the gifts of peace that could come from giving freedom to Kurds or restoring what was taken from Armenia.  It is sad that Turkish mothers suffer, but this is the unfortunate price innocent citizens pay for their governments repressive policies.  You have a very one-sided perspective on the PKK problem, or as Ragnar says, you concern yourself only with half the story.  Turks only suffer because they refuse to understand the inalienable human rights of others.  
    Rebellion is at times the greatest and most noble expression of personal dignity.   

  1112. Necati-  you cry about the following:

    Or, should we just watch our  boys killed by PKK and our mothers and little children cry  for ever? WHY? Because we are TURK? WHY? Because we are muslim?

    YOU.. Genocidal physco individual talking about watching your boys killed and your mothes and little children cry forever?  Why don’t you stop and think about these questions…

    Why were my ancestors point blank barbaricly murdered by your ancestors in thousands, in million? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY??? because they were ARMENIANS?? Because they were CHRISTIANS????  
    I guess my ancestors did not really care about their sons, fathers, brothers, husbands being butchered by your nomadic ancestors.. they did not care about their dying and starving babies .. if they were lucky enough to stay alive.. see how much suffering your ancestors put my people through? and now you cry about your losses due to fair fighting..  I would think about all those lives your ancestors took from 1894-1924 and how my people had to endure and see all that happening around them and to them…..

    i guess Karma is a b*@#$(*#$()*$#)(#*)#$…..  your ancestors did a dirty dirty deed.. now you feel the taste of what is coming back…  it is just unfortunate that innocent people end up dying in the midst of all this nonsense conflicts…  

    Gayane

  1113. How does it feel when in today’s Istanbul they force name an Armenian school ‘talaat pasha’ or stick posters on Armenian school walls where it says ‘blessed is the one who calls himself a turk’ or they call a street inhabitied mainly by Armenians in Sisli,Istanbul ‘ergenekon’….
    What do you call all the above?How could a government/country which represents itself as democratic,modern,which wants to join EU allow such acts of hatred & racism?
    How could we ever trust Turkey & Aliyevistan?

  1114. necati,your words:”if we kill all of those terrorists, and deport all kurdish in the region,  is this a genocide?”
    You call them terrorists,the Kurds call them freedom fighters.In order for you to deport all the Kurdish population from the region then you have to use force as this cannot be done by peaceful means,so you will kill & murder & YES THIS BECOMES ETHNIC CLEANSING & GENOCIDE.
     

  1115. necati,your words again:
    “Or, should we just watch our  boys killed by PKK and our mothers and little children cry  for ever? WHY? Because we are TURK? WHY? Because we are muslim?”
    The last 4 words are very interesting:”Because we are muslim?”
    Can I know what’s the religion of the Kurds?

  1116. boyajian

    you wrote:
    The reason I react negatively to your explanations of the Turkish psychology which led to their genocidal actions against Armenians is because you appear to think we Armenians don’t know this already and because it seems you expect us to somehow alter our thinking once we are ‘enlightened.’  This strikes me as a bit of an arrogant miscalculation and says more about your own need to handle the cognitive dissonance created by knowing that your friends have a sinister past.
     comment:

    I disagree, the large majority of the Armenian participators here in the AW never gave an indication that they understand the Turkish psychology. So it is natural that I mention it. Second, of course I expect you – I mean you personally –  to change your thinking. What are we here for? Ypu expect me to alter mine, dont you? I dont expect you to cuddle up to the Turks but to simply say AS PART OF your strategy: Yes, we know the powers preyed on you, YES, we know that the majority of your Balkan societies were destroyed after you had lived there for 500 years and had the right to stay as part of a modern human rights approach to minorities, we know that they were killed and expelled in actions where Turks were target as such. But DONT COME WITH THESE STORIES WHEN WE ASK YOU TO RECOGNICE WHAT HEPPENED TO US IN 1915. PLEASE RELATE TO 1915!
    — I have said this before, that unless you insert remarks like these in your discussions with Turks who are reasonably well intended (lets say 15% of the time you use with them), you will create a totally unnecessary difficulty for yourself in trying to make Turks apologize and make reparations. But this aspect is absent in the Armenian messages to the Turks who are here. Instead you have fellow Armenians who simply preach that Turks were bad from the time they  left Central Asia, which both is untrue and secondly is hopelessly inadequate if your deal with human beings.

    I am really fed up with Turkish nationalists, but I have friends who are wonderful people, even those I disagree with. I dont have any cognitive dissonance as far as I can see. In all walks of life we need the ability to have different thoughts in our head at the same time, thoughts that do not immediately fit into some general pattern, free of contradictions. To dream of attaining this – or worse, having it as one’s conviction and self image –  is a kind of self delusion leading to fundamentalism. Of course I see it in Islamists I have discussed with.   As someone who works with dialogue also in working life, I just recognise people who have felt so victimised – with good reason – that they are not able to see their adversaries clear enough to be able to score some of their badly needed victories.   
          

  1117. gayane

    from dealing with people I have tried to learn patience. Besides, what you say may very well become a self-confirming prophesy. Byu not trusting Turks here on the AW to be anything other than troublemakers, you may inadvertently contribute to their troublesome aspects. And we may end up with a dioscussion fora to which disillusioned people from both camps turn to have their prejudices confirmed.

    I admire your insistence!

    Have a good day (here in norway it is 7 o clock in the morning)

    Ragnar      

  1118. Necati

    dont you know that the Kurds in Turkey are overwhelmingly Muslim? The majority are sunni Muslim, some are Alevi and a few are what is called ahl-i-Haq (the people of god), who are sometimes conflated with Alevis. A sprinkling is Yezidi, but the majority of these left in the 80-ies because of the hostility of their Muslim neighbours and the inability or unwillingness of the state to protect them. I understand it if you know some of the victims of the PKK terror personally, but I believe all reasonable people in Turkey know that you cannot solve problems with 20 million citizens, the majority living in cities with mixed Turkish-Kurdish populations, through military means? 

  1119. VTiger jan- it is obvious Necati is someone you can’t speak in human tongue.. she has the murderor’s heart.. very revengful and genocidal..

    AND NOT RAGNAR.. this is not pronouncing a verdit.. Necati abeledherself as such… or do you believe we should give her benefit of the doubt that she could be a human  being with a heart?

  1120. Anyone who embraces Turkey can stay here and enjoy one of the beautiful country regardless of their ethnic origin. They can practice their religion, culture and language. Kurds or Armenians can do these things . No problem.They may have experienced problems  but not any more. Anyone who disagrees with my above comments and wants self determination or freedom is free to go to America or elsewhere. Full Stop. If we loose not 24 soldiers but 2.4 millions of soldiers. Your dreams or Kurdish dreams will not come true. I have yet to meet a single person who is willing to accept self determination or defeat. Enjoy your dream day and night  

  1121. Gayane

    of course it is much easier for me to preach faith in human beings – that is Turks -and belief that they will change,  so I will not argue with you. I’d rather continue my arguments with turks here and in other fora

  1122. “Artful Ancient Van With Its Genocided Souls are
    Awakening by October 2011 Earthquake”
     
    Van: Every Armenian knows…where is Van
    And each Armenian child as young as nine
    Van…was an Armenian Land before B.C
    Near mounts Masis and Ararat…
    Where Noah’s boat pieces still can be traced 
    Even the mountains are snatched…
    Moved on to Turkish ground…!!!
     
    President Woodrow Wilson (1856-1924)*
    In February 1920..pointed on the Map 
    Of Western Armenia, Anatolia 
    Said, “Here is Armenia…Here is Van…”   
    Many Famous Armenian were born there
    The American-Armenian painter, Arshile Gorky (1904-1948)
      
    All the Armenians of Van, were genocided one-by-one
    Their girls are clever, tall, thin, beautiful, with green and blue eyes 
    Like their beautiful white fluffy hairy cats; famous cats of Van
    English people are proud when they cuddle one…
    Without tracing its origin…of the ancient kingdom of king Tigran…
      
    Van men are well known to have 
    Dignity, will, strive…with chestnut hair…
    With their babies and pregnant sprouses, parents 
    Grandparents were all slayed* one-by-one 
    Before 1915 and after…The rest are Turkified…
    Their faces look Armenian…but their identity changed 
    Turkified …Turkified…Turkified
    Recently in the internets…you can find them…
    They call them selves ‘Hidden Armenians’
     
    Their surnames instead ending with… 
    ian (yan) changed to Oglu, a Turkish Son…
    Religion to Muslim…Like Hemsin Armenians…
    They can’t speak their poetic saintful alphabets
     
    See the new photo…a lady lost her head scarf …
    Crying for lost lives in October earthquake, 2011
    She looks definitely Armenian
    She is forced to pray at mosque 
    Churches were vanished…by scavengers hands 
     
    Do you know why the earth quaked…! 
    Because there are ‘Armenian Souls’ underneath Van 
    Since genocide still crying…
    Asking help from humans from every site…
    From known and only god. 
    Since 1064*** Mighty lost his mind…
    After he saw endless genocides…
    The earth stayed wet…full of skulls…blood…sweat
    Till this moment…never dried…
     
    Akhtamar Cathedral of the 10th Century
    Still standing on the island of the Lake Van 
    Unfair-godless politicians forgot them…
    Concentrating on Qaddafi and his sons.. 
     
    The Armenian souls are chanting 
    “Let Us awake…Let Us breathe”
    Let the world know 
    We are humans of most an ancient race 
    Like pharaoh of Egypt, those build the pyramids.
    We had our Stone Hedge seven centuries ago…
    Before others…Who forgot even word genocide…  
    Ours strong fortresses were destroyed…
    Replaced by new weak buildings 
    Which can fall…by any earth quake
     
    We were burned in hays…raped…crucified…hanged Scimitar ed…decapitated…
    Hurled in rivers Euphrates and its branches 
    One-by-One…One-by-One 
    Still our skeleton stay under church rocks…under the sand
    You can trace us, by analysing our DNA …you can find 
    We are still dancing under our ‘Darling, Artful Van’…
    Still we have faith…Calling you to save Us…
     
    Still the world dignified populace have awareness,
    How we can paint…carve our rocks
    In spite having deeply scared…injured… bleeding hands…
    Hopeful…with never depressed minds 
    Still able to chant new poems…create music…dance…
    With Our colourful handmade dresses and flags…!!!
     
    Sylva-MD-Poetry
    (An Armenian Soul from Genocide) 
    October 24, 2011
     
    Note: After Armenians were Genocided In Van…
    Kurds were genocided in July 12, 1930, Zilan Massacres **** 
    in Van (wikipedia)
    _____________
    * President Thomas Woodrow Wilson’s Speech in Boston (February 26,1919), 
    “Have you thought of the sufferings the Armenians had gone through? Did you help the Armenians after they had gone through those sufferings? Support them now, so that they never suffer again.” ***Treaty of Sevres, France (August-December 1920) Armenia was given a large part of the region according to the border fixed by President of the United States of America which was referred as “Wilsonian Armenia”; including provinces which didn’t have significant Armenian populations remaining after the war, such as the Black Sea port city of Trabzon. However, even that plan was never implemented as the Treaty of Sèvres was replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne (1923).
     
     ** Slayed: lyrical word for slain
     
    *** In 1064 a large Seljuk Turkish army, headed by Sultan Alp Arslan, with the help of the Caucasian Georgians headed by King Bagrat, attacked Ani and after a siege of 25 days they captured the city and slaughtered its population. An account of the sack and massacres in Ani is given by the Arab historian Sibt ibn al-Gawzi, who quotes an eyewitness saying:
     
    “The army entered the city, massacred its inhabitants, pillaged and burned it, leaving it in ruins and taking prisoner all those who remained alive . . . The dead bodies were so many that they blocked the streets; one could not go anywhere without stepping over them and the number of prisoners was not less than 50,000 souls. I was determined to enter city and see the destruction with my own eyes. I tried to find a street in which I would not have to walk over the corpses; but that was impossible.” (ref: wikipedia) 
     
    ****Zilan massacre or Zilan Valley massacre, refers to the massacre of the Kurdish residents of Turkey during the Ararat rebellion, in which 800-1500 armed men participated.
    It took place in the Zilan or Zeylan Valley located to the north of the town of Erciş in Van Province in July 1930 before Third Ararat Operation (Turkish: Üçüncü Ağrı Harekâtı, September 7–14, 1930) that was a military operation of Turkish IX Corps under the command of Ferik (lieutenant general) Salih (Omurtak) against Mount Ararat. According to the daily newspaper Cumhuriyet dated July 16, 1930, about 15,000 people, according to Hesen Hîşyar Serdî (1907-September 14, 1985, a participant to the Ararat rebellion and writer), 47,000 villagers from 18 villages of Ademan, Sipkan, Zilan and Hesenan tribes, according to Garo Sasuni (an Armenian researcher), 5,000 women, children and the elderly were massacred. According to Berliner Tageblatt, the Turks in the area of Zilan destroyed 220 villages and massacred 4,500 women and the elderly. (Wikipedia)

  1123. To some writers on this site 
    Who can act with cyanotic heart
    Persist to genocide our Honest Pens
     
    I tell you all: 
    You can never reach— 
    You will never reach
    To treat 
    Few cells of our unhealed scars
    By your overly paid pen
     
    Your writing is so superficial 
    That it can transcend with mild wind 
    Without hurricane
     
    I read many of your articles
    None inspired me
    To learn and apply
     
    You have ‘Too Many Faces’ 
    You don’t know which one to use first 
    To pretend as an innocent…saint
    Caring for the victims…
    Who lost each finger…but still can write
     
    Your hidden hate 
    Must appear at the end 
    Because, whatever you hide 
    You can’t hide 
    Your evil-cells imprinted in… 
    It is life facts …
    All will die…As you sigh…
     
    Our pen will never drop by
    Fore…None paid Us to write
    All paid by the flesh of genocided..
     
    Their cohorts are still in pain…
    Calling every honest pen 
    To Feel…Write…Chant…
    Till every populace hear
    Arrive and recognise 
    Not only our genocide 
    Thus… every…
    Since the Eve and Adam century…
     

    Sylva-MD-Poetry 
     

  1124. “…How we can paint…carve our rocks
    In spite having deeply scared…injured… bleeding hands…”

    Hi Sylva, these words above really resonated for me.  What a picture!  A new way to view our ‘pink’ tufa.  Most khatchkars were probably ‘baptized’ in the blood of their carvers after an unintended slip of the chisel used to shape them.   Bleeding hands transforming stone.  This is Christological imagery.  You slayed me!

    Ragnar, you said (I am restating in my own words) you don’t believe Armenians consider the Turkish experience enough when discussing the genocide with them.  You think we should show Turks that we understand that they were victims, too, and that this had an impact on their psychology and contributed to setting the stage for the genocidal acts against Armenians.  You think this is an important concession to make in order to smooth the way to an honest discussion about the genocide.  Do I have this right? 

    I can see your point to a certain extent, but I don’t think you give Armenians nearly enough credit for being able to sift through denial and distortion.  You also don’t seem to understand how undignified it is to suggest to people who lost so much and have waited so long for the perpetrators to be brought to justice, that they must now coddle and coo them into repentance.  Feel free to do this, if you see yourself as a mediator.  I wish you success, but don’t expect Armenians to enclose Turks in an empathic embrace that is reserved for those who suffer similar atrocities.  Though they may have suffered too, they were no mere victims with respect to Armenians.  Their unfair targeting of Christian minorities has been documented well before the Balkan events and the Hamidian and Adana massacres attest to an Anti-Armenian agenda of long-standing. Our experience tells the truth of an oppressive regime bent on the quashing of minority aspirations for self-determination.  This was so deeply ingrained in the fabric of the Turk that the Young Turks quickly abandoned their promises of minority rights reforms as soon as they gained power.  How quickly they reverted to seeing us as second-class giavours.  These are lessons not easily forgotten.

    “… the majority of your Balkan societies were destroyed after you had lived there for 500 years and had the right to stay as part of a modern human rights approach to minorities,..”

    Sorry but to me this is contorted thinking.  Turks were not mere minorities in the modern understanding of the term.  They were conquerors and settlers that dominated and suppressed the indigenous communities.  They didn’t come in and blend and meld into a cohesive society.  They waged war and oppressed and divided and took advantage of the weak.  They governed with an uneven hand and were bent on spreading their empire as far as they could until successfully opposed.   What did they expect to happen when nationalistic aspirations became part of the zeitgeist?  Where was their ‘clever and tolerant’ governance then?  While I don’t condone the murder of innocent villagers anywhere, how is the ouster of unwanted usurpers by fed-up, rebelling, indigenous people, a comparable situation to Ottoman Turks deciding to oust and extinguish indigenous Armenians from their 4000 year old homeland because they were avenging their ouster from the Balkans and fearing further demise of their territories in Asia Minor?   You see, I understand this psychology very well and still abhor it!   And I abhor any effort to offer it as an ameliorating explanation of Turkish culpability.  It only lends credence to the image of Turks as a rampaging scourge.  I am shocked that you promote it.  And I am shocked to think that Turks would expect a softening of Armenian indignation toward their recalcitrant avoidance of responsibility based on it.  If Turks want to leave this reputation behind, they need only acknowledge the sins of their fathers and distance themselves from it by apologizing and making restitution to a nation that was unfairly targeted by their grandfathers’ vengeful rage.  Germans have found a way to climb out of their darkest moment in time.  Turks can do the same by following their example. 

    Aren’t you a bit misguided to place so much importance on Armenians ‘understanding Turks’ while giving very little attention (at least here) to Turks opening their eyes to the travesty done to Armenians?  Or are we rooting for opposing teams?
    To me, Turks have changed very little over time.  They still want to be seen as the respected and feared Sultans who live in opulence coveted by others, who are above reproach and have the right to squash any detractors like unwanted cockroaches.  They have a long way to go in terms of a ‘psychology’ of co-existence with others.
     

  1125. john the turk,       and how about those who embraced their own lands for several millennia but were savagely exterminated by the Turks en masse? Do you think they, I mean Armenians, had the right to enjoy their beautiful country regardless of their ethnic origin? Or Turks are only capable of thinking by the categories of their own national interests? Can such thinking be considered an indicator of intellectual and civilizational maturity of the modern-day Turks?
     
    ragnar naess,      you witnessed my attempt to honestly debate with one of the denialist Turks posting here under the name of ‘Murat’. I hope you saw that despite my readiness he never went beyond a single comment in which he laid out figures and reasoning, so to speak, suitable to the Turkish side of the debate. And that was it. You may say I cannot make generalizations based on a single person, and I’d reiterate that on these pages we hardly saw any Turk willing—understandingly and remorsefully—to debate, not deny or distort, the facts about the Armenians genocide. I hope you drew conclusions as to which side recedes from engaging in the debate.

  1126. Boyajian jan-.. what a powerful comment.. well said my dear friend.. well said..

    But it does not seem Ragnar sees himself … guess it is hard to judge oneself when you dont’ think you are doing something wrong… He does not see himself being onesided (MOST OF THE TIME)… He believes he knows what he is doing or saying.. hopefully he will get it once and for all that he will never be a neutral moderator as he claims to be…

    Gor jan– apres.. well said…John the Turk is in his OWN dreams when speaking of his beautiful Turkey because unlucky to him, Turkey does not belong to him or any of the Turks living on those lands…

    John the Turk– anyone who does not embrace human rights, respect, does not repent for wrong doings, or continues to side with the devil ends up with the devil.. you know about that right? well if you did not, you know now..

    Ragnar-i am sorry but I don’t call your interactions with denialists on these pages arguing.. you mostly ask questions, try to understand what they mean or beg for them to return to our pages to continue to talk nonsense but as you can see, most are only here to stir up nonsense and then they dissapear..  i just don’t understand why you don’t see this? could be more love toward them.. that is the only thing I can think of such treatment… you should know by now they are not capable of having a normal conversation… so try harder wih the Turks because I see you do everything else and work so hard to change Armenians but I say that is wrong on your part.  Concentrate on the group that is more resistance to the truth, justice and human rights… TURKISH DENIALISTS/GOVT…  if you succeed with the Turks, we will be the first to applaud your success…     

    Also, I suggest you stop lumping ALL TURKS in a bunch and direct your address to Armenians as if Armenians are SAYING ALL TURKS are bad.. we said this MILLION and GAZILLION times.. We DO NOT HATE ALL TURKS.. WE DO NOT WISH HARM OR DESPISE THE ENTIRE TURKSH POPULATION.. how many times do we have to repeat this?????

    And please don’t blame me for contributing to the fact that them denialists are troublemakers because I say they are… are you absolutely certain that because we point out their drawbacks and their reasons, we are contributing to their messed up existance? you must be hanging with and around these denialists too long Ragnar.. Get off of it..

    Gayane          

  1127. “[… ] the majority of your Balkan societies were destroyed after you had lived there for 500 years and had the right to stay as part of a modern human rights approach to minorities,[…]”   
     
    ragnar naess,      what I know for sure is that with such a bizarre understanding of the origins of the peoples and the categories they fall under (autochthonous and settler), you won’t go far. Why is this superficiality in stating that Turks had lived in the Balkans for 500 years with no word on how the Turks emerged in the region? Why is this excessive attentiveness to the consequences of Turkish presence in the Balkans that was ultimately—and justly—destroyed, and total negligence of the causes of it? Why is this unfair and unreasonable focus on the right to stay for colonizers and total disregard for the right of indigenous peoples to live on their ancestral lands? Why is this preferential treatment of the modern human rights approach to minorities with regard to the Turks yet no word on the approach that the Turks applied to the indigenous peoples making them second-class subjects under foreign rule?
     
    Five sickening inaccuracies in one clause:
     
    (1) “[Turkish] Balkan societies were destroyed”.  How have the Turks formed these societies? As
    a result of natural migration and integration processes or by sword and fire?
     
    (2) “[Turks] had lived there for 500 years”.  How did they come to live in the Balkans? Is it the ancestral homeland of the Turks?
     
    (3) “[Turks] had the right to stay”.  You mean to say whoever invades and occupies the lands of others has the right to stay? If Nazi German occupation of Norway lasted longer than from 1940 to 1945, say, for 500 years, would you say their descendants had ‘the right to stay’ in your homeland?
     
    (4) “a modern human rights approach to minorities”.  After presenting the natives with a fait accompli of colonization, Turks expect ‘modern human rights approach’ to their act of aggression? And even if it so happened, aren’t the Turks expected to show ‘modern human rights approach’ towards the natives, or such an approach applies only to the invaders?

  1128. Gayane,
    I dont claim to be neutral. I dont even know what you have in mind when you talk about neutrality. There is no neurality in questions of truth and falsehood. Either something you assert is true or it is false. No middle ground. And a “point of view” often consists of many things one holds as true, one’s “articles of faith”. Do you follow me?  Now there exist opinions that consist of several assertions, many indeed. They are often grouped together so that the typical liberal has a number of things he or she believes in, and the typical conservative generally says that ALL or nearly all the things the typical liberal believes in is false. but then there may be people who subscribes to some 50% of the assertions of the liberals and some 50% of the conservatives. This is confusing to those who see the conflict or the battle as the paramount thing (“either you are with me or you are against me! There is no middle ground! But here there actually is a middle ground”), and they want to know who is an enemy and who is a friend. They get uncertain and angry and claim that this person is devious or unclear, or stupid. But the person maybe is not trying to be neutral. The person simply disagrees in some and agrees in some. Do you follow me? I am this kind of person in relation to many Turks and Armenians, as I was some 15 years ago to many Kurds and many Turks  when I was working with Amnesty International.  I supported and support the Kurds in their fight for human rights, but I was never one of those Norwegians who “rallied to the Kurdish cause” and felt they had to agree with and defend the Kurdish spokesmen who used the most vehement language, at all cost. So, Gayane, I am not a crusader who keep silent about what I belive is mistaken in my allies. I am an outsider who partly agree with the typical Armenian views and partly – less, I would say – with the typical Turkish view. I hope this makes sense with you. But I would not call it neutrality. What is neutrality? Excuse me for being so preoccupied with words and their meaning but I believe it is important.  

  1129. Avery,

    I believe small countries like Armenia and Norway have a greater interest in demanding respect for human rights than the big powers, who are able to grow and survive at the expence of others. But if Norwegians and Armenians start talking about the justness or inevitability of destruction of – and killing off members of –  other religious, ethnic or national groups – are we then not “sawing off the branch we ourselves are sitting on” – I dont know if this proverb exists in English. 

  1130. Mr. Ragnar,

    what you call as “half of the problem” is in fact the whole problem we have.
    No problem with our kurdish people as long as not  killing my boys…

    According to Lousanne Treaty, in Turkey there is no minority, named “kürt”…so  everyone has the same rights. You know we had even a kurdish president.

    About  language ban: Now all of that  kind of problems are solved. There is a TV channel in Kurdish. and they can speak their language everywhere ..i hear them by my ears..

    Let me repeat :

    The reason for  existence  of PKK , as we all know, is not to get some democratic rights  but to divide Turkey.  You can confirm this with mr Avery.

    PKK terrorists are mostly non-muslim. Abdullah Öcalan himself is a “zerdust”. (I think actually atheist)

    I think, everything can be debated by words at the table  and not by guns except the borders and unity of Turkey shown in “Milli Misak”. First ,terrorists must stop murdering my people and leave their guns.

    Have a nice day.

  1131. Mr. Ragnar,

    i forgot to tell you something.

    PKK terrorism is the  reason for rising nationalism.

    you can call it as : Auto-response,  natural reaction against a threat, self-protection instinct…

  1132. Gor

    Armenians had no beautiful country on their own. They shared a country with Turks. They were minority and didn’t constituted a majority in any province.This the delusion your ancestors had and you still have the same delusion.

  1133. Many illiterate writers here
    I think they have Internet 
    But Newspaper can’t reach there 
    So  they write from the jungles…
     
    They think they can cheat everyone…
    Nations from around the world
    Chanted to help unlucky people of Van
    The scavengers refused any help
    They are happy let Kurds die… 
    Has any one saw a dog after Earthquake
    To come and smell blood and sweat of humans
    None …
    Few people are digging to find bodies
    Every Turk Is happy 
    Let the Kurds die under their land…
    This is their day…
    This is the opinion of every tongue of every Ottoman…

    The survivors are shouting…
    No blankets…
    No food… 
    No milk for their children
    Where is Mr. Erdogan
    Helping the Syrian…!!!
    And training soldiers in Azerbaijan…!!!
    To kill more Armenians

    SP 
     
     

  1134. Necati, on what basis can Turkey defend her right to the borders she now has?  Without embracing the full and equal rights of the indigenous people’s of Asia Minor and the Caucasus, what right does Turkey have other than the right of might?  Modern Turkey was created out of cheap fabric that was used to blanket all its inhabitants as “Turks”   while overtly and covertly suppressing anything “non-Turk.”  There are holes forming in this fabric as the indigenous and organic peoples of the land are asserting their rights and redefining who and what a Turk is.  Turkey is suffering because of her unwillingness to pay the inevitable price of being a multi-cultural civilization, whether she likes it or not.  Turkey can’t avoid paying this price for long.  She has a path to choose, but will it be the way of the sword as it has been so many times in the past, or the way of enlightenment?  Yes, a light shining on all the dark areas that you refuse to see now…
    Ignorance is your worst enemy, not the PKK. 

  1135. Ragnar, after working on the Turkish/Kurdish issues for so long, are you sure that you are not imposing a “familiar” paradigm that you used with for that dilemma upon the Armenian/Turkish issue?  The two are not synonymous.

  1136. ‘ – and killing off members of – ‘  writes Ragnar.
    in response to Avery’s seconding of Gor’s writing this:


    [‘Turkish presence in the Balkans that was ultimately—and justly—destroyed’ (Gor)
    Yep, justly. (Avery)]

    I am familiar with Gor thru his posts. He would never advocate killing of non-combatants and I do not recall a single  instance where he has. Neither has another Armenian poster @AW that I can recall. Neither have I.

    You and Gor went several rounds re Bulgarian Turks. In none of the posts did Gor agree with the killing of ethnic Turk non-combatants by Bulgarians or Russians. He understood it did happen, he understood it inevitably would happen, and unfortunately does happen in pretty much all wars, but he lamented the loss of innocent bystander life.

    Since I am familiar with Gor, I read the expression ‘Turkish presence…..destroyed’ thus:
    Destruction of the oppressive  military and administrative presence of Turkish occupiers.
    Not your re-phrasing of  ‘ – and killing off members of – ‘, which clearly  implies extermination of members of a certain ethnic group, and with which I clearly disagree.

  1137. ‘Excuse me for being so preoccupied with words and their meaning but I believe it is important.’  (writes Ragnar).

    Then I was right: Mr Naess  did use the words ‘inbred’  and ‘disposed of’  when referring to Armenians knowingly and deliberately.
    Clear, if inadvertent,  manifestation  of his well-concealed Anti-Armenian bias.
    Clear, if inadvertent,  manifestation of his well-concealed contempt for our exterminated ancestors.

  1138. John the Turk, history did not begin with the onset of Turkish presence in Asia Minor.  That is the delusion that limits your understanding.   Study history from non-Turkish sources and acknowledge the many cultures that lived there before the arrival of Seljuks.  Stop insisting on your Turkish twist of reality.  It is highly deficient. 

  1139. “…enough rope to hang oneself with…?”

    Ragnar, your unfortunate use of the words inbred and disposed of keep coming back to bite you.

    I am with Avery on his reading of Gor’s phrase: “Turkish presence in the Balkans that was ultimately—and justly—destroyed’ (Gor). ”  No one here advocates ethnic cleansing or massacres of innocent people, but when rebellion occurs to oust unwanted, unjust, and oppressive occupiers, it is understood that bloodshed may occur as the two sides clash.

  1140. john the turk,       out of curiosity, Turks can count from what number? Or beginning what century or millennium? Only starting with invasions of their Seljuk and Mongol ancestors in the 11th-13th centuries AD? Or with the establishment of the House of Osman in the 15th-16th centuries AD? Has it ever occurred to you that other nations may have existed long before the Turks? Well, then, if they teach you math, as well as history of world civilizations at schools, do a simple research as to when the Armenian civilization and statehood had originated. Then come back and prove me delusional. You will see that Greater Armenia had statehood up until the 12th century when the Bagratuni (Bagratid) Royal Dynasty constructed the magnificent capital of their state Ani to be later destroyed and looted by a Seljuk Turk warrior by the name Alp Arslan. There was also so called Little Armenia, the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia, that resisted Seljuk invasions up until the 15th century AD. Sneak into the chronicles of ancient Greek, Roman, Phoenician, Assyrian, Persian, and Khazar civilizations: Armenia, as a country, is everywhere. Where are the Turks? The fact that your barbarian warrior forefathers succeeded in occupying a native, ancient, and creative civilization, doesn’t give you the right to spew out crap such as ‘Armenians had no country of their own’. When Armenians had country and civilization of their own, Seljuks were grazing on in the pastures of Mongolia and the Altay mountains. Armenians had to share the country with the Turks, because they were forcibly incorporated into the Ottoman empire, whose policies was to maintain Muslim majority throughout their state. For that reason from the 16th century on, Kurds and Turks were methodically settled in the Armenian provinces to change the population ratio. Before the genocide, yes, already Armenians didn’t constitute a majority in any province, except maybe in Van. If Armenians didn’t constitute a majority, then why were they savagely massacred by your grandfathers? Ever thought of that? An unarmed, disorganized, dispersed, impoverished, and largely rural minority couldn’t possibly pose a threat to the mighty Ottoman Turkish empire. Nonetheless, a whole nation was exterminated by the Turks.
     
    Don’t come here again and tell us, one of the most ancient nations inhabiting the Earth, that we had no country of our own. We had statehood and developed civilization long before the barbarian Seljuk warriors arrived from their ancestral homeland in Central Asian steppes.

  1141. Of course, Avery,    I meant the presence was justly destroyed, not the innocent civilians. The presence, which was established as a result of military aggression and occupation some 500 years ago. It is so obvious that it wouldn’t even take casting a second glance at the clause.

  1142. ragnar naess,      did your parents live in Norway during the 1940-45 German occupation?  Did they, or the parents of other senior Norwegians you know (unless they were members of the collaborationist Quisling government), ever tell you what you’re telling us in case of the Turks: “Germans had the right to stay” or “Germans had lived there for 5 years” or “German presence [in Norway] was destroyed”.  Would the German occupiers or their descendants (if occupation lasted for more than 5 years) ever have the “right to stay” in Norway in view of contemporaries or modern-day Norwegians?

  1143. boyajian

    I have apologized for the use of these words. I can apologize again.

    Avery

    it seems we agree to a certain extent because I see no problem in removing an oppressive regime. I also do not excuse the killing of civilians.   Further, I can see the justice in Bulgarians through rebellion acquiring their own state.  They had been independent before the Ottomans invaded their country. It is the terror I condemn. As I have said many times it was much more than “collateral damage”, it was a deliberate targeting of civilians which led to mass mortality, and by giving Turks equal right in the constitution adopted sometime before 1880 the Bulgarians acknowledged their past misdeeds.

      

  1144. Mr. (or is it Ms.?) Necati,

    YOU WRITE:
    what you call as “half of the problem” is in fact the whole problem we have.
    No problem with our kurdish people as long as not  killing my boys…
    According to Lousanne Treaty, in Turkey there is no minority, named “kürt”…so  everyone has the same rights. You know we had even a kurdish president.

    COMMENT:

    Representatives of the Kurds never signed the Lausanne agreement. It is not rerlevant. Of course it was very courageous of Turgut Özal to say “Maybe there are Kurdish blood in my veins” or something like that. Kurds earlier were able to obtain high positions, but not AS KURDS. Roughly one quarter of the parliamentarians in the TC parliament have been kurdish for many years, but until recently, if any of them had said “I am a Kurd” from the rostrum, they would have been arrested at once. This is the historical heritage.

    YOU WRITE:       
    About  language ban: Now all of that  kind of problems are solved. There is a TV channel in Kurdish. and they can speak their language everywhere ..i hear them by my ears..

    COMMENT: I dont know the details, but the situation is much better now regarding cultural rights. But you have not commented on the return to the villages, which I mentioned.

    About the people who support the PKK today I dont know. However I am surprised that my acquaintance the Kurdish grocer whose shop is not far from where I live, supports the actions of the PKK today. This is an indication that the PKK again has a lot of following as he is a quite normal Kurdish man, and a muslim.

    YOU WRITE:
        
     Let me repeat :
    The reason for  existence  of PKK , as we all know, is not to get some democratic rights  but to divide Turkey.  You can confirm this with mr Avery.
    PKK terrorists are mostly non-muslim. Abdullah Öcalan himself is a “zerdust”. (I think actually atheist).

    COMMENT:

    no, the PKK for a long time fought for democratic rights of the type that minorities in many other countries have.

    YOU WRITE:

           
    I think, everything can be debated by words at the table  and not by guns except the borders and unity of Turkey shown in “Milli Misak”. First ,terrorists must stop murdering my people and leave their guns.
    COMMENT:

    Czekoslovakia was divided because the  Slovaks did not want to be in the same state with the Czeks. It was done peacefully. Norway broke away from Sweden peacefully in 1905. The Soviet union was dismantled in 1991, it happened peacefully. But about Turkey I dont know.    I condemn the killing of civilians whether it is done by the PKK or the Turkish armed forces.

      Have a nice day.

    Have a nice day,you, too  

    avery and Boyajian

    It was gor’s characterization of the Turkish mortality in 1877-78 as something that inevitably happens in a rebellion I disagree with. As I have repeated many times, it was ethnic cleansing and mass mortality among civilians that happened. The same thing did not happen to the Turkomans in Iraq to the same extent although there were massacres of Turks in Erbil and other cities in 1958 and in other years. In the Balkans Turkish communities were deliberately destroyed and inhabitants ethically cleansed and many killed. This is the difference  

       

  1145. The primary reason Ataturk forced people to call themselves Turks was to create the illusion that this self-created group was, in fact, living in Turkey. Few were actually bona fide ‘Turks’, whatever that means.  Before his edict, Turks were no more numerous than Armenians, and probably fewer. The term was used derisively. The sultans all had non-Turkish wives, mothers and grandmothers – by tradition, not accident.  Moreover, for centuries, the ruling ‘Turks’ were never, ever thought to be indigenous Anatolians at all by anyone.  In contrast, the Armenians – who had been living there – on the same territory – since time immemorial, were always more Anatolian than any Turk. In fact, virtually every important historic cultural monument in Turkey was conceived and built by Armenians…since the Armenian community provided not only the architects, but also the stone masons who actually constructed everything, from Seljuk times on forward. Why?  Because the warrior/ruling class had its hands full with conquest and running the show…everyone else did the real work for them, because they had no skillsets of their own. How many monuments does one see in Siberia or Mongolia?  Yurts are about it, for architecture….and we know how advanced those are. 

  1146. No need Ragnar.  I don’t mean to beat a dead horse; just pointing out that if you are going to dissect others’ words, you open yourself to scrutiny, too.  The problem seems to be that people are still trying to figure out if you made an unfortunate word choice or if those words simply revealed your true attitude regarding Armenians.

  1147. “[I]t was much more than “collateral damage”, it was a deliberate targeting of civilians which led to mass mortality”
     
    Not quite so. It was an atrocity against the civilians during the wartime which led to mass mortality. It was ‘deliberate’ only in the sense that for the Bulgarians and the Russians, Turks represented the civilian component of their war archenemy – the Ottoman Turkish empire. And again, no single word that before these atrocities tens of thousands of Bulgarian civilians who played no role whatsoever in the April 1876 uprising were savagely slaughtered by the Turks and irregular Ottoman troops and their villages pillaged. Liberal Europeans called these massacres ‘the Bulgarian Horrors’.  If ragnar naess condemns the terror, why doesn’t he first say ‘A’ before saying ‘B’?
     
    “[…] and by giving Turks equal right in the constitution adopted sometime before 1880 the Bulgarians acknowledged their past misdeeds.”
     
    Have the Turks acknowledged their misdeeds against the Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks, Assyrians, and the Armenians?

  1148. Ragnar-  you know what is interesting?? I can say i am somewhat intelligent when it comes to history and politics but of course not as genius as my friends on this pages.. i did graduate from a somewhat good university but still have alot to learn from life experiences,  I somewhat proficient in the English language even though not as proficient as yourself of course..ect ect ect….  BUT when you keep telling me “Do you follow me? ” not just once time but few times in your post addressed to me, i feel you think of me as someone who has no brain cells to follow …oh i follow all right… but when it comes to you.. well that is a totall different matter…. as I said…even though I am somewht intelligent and somewhat knowledgable about the English lanaguage, i simply can’t follow your logic.. You keep morphing yourself in so many shapes, colors, and forms that I can’t and i doubt ever will understand what you are doing and who you are..so my Norwegian friend by repeating ” do you follow me” phrase does nothing to me… because there is nothing to follow really Ragnar.. NOTHING…

    as Avery pointed out, you keep shooting yourself in the foot by stating one thing but then later changing it…… and like Boyajian stated, your relationship with Turks has fogged up your ability to do what you “attempt” to do… and that is NOT being bias…it is sooo annoying to read your posts over and over again with such confusion, such vagueness, such hidden meanings/agendas.. it is frustrating and i am sick of it… i am being blunt sorry…

    Ragnar you know why you can’t relate to the truth?? because you are not seeing eye to eye with Armenians who have LEGIT reason to scream and demand.. you know why??? here i am going to sound like a broken radio again:

    1.  Your long lasting relationship with the Turks/govt

    2. Having no extensive experience in the Armenian History and with ARmenians

    3. You do not think with your heart and can’t relate to the pain as you only view Genocide as another crime and all that matters to you is the scientific reasoning of it

    4. Your book is the central purpose in your life and all you can do is fish information from posters who are actual descendents of all who were brutally murdered.. you take but that is all you do.. you do not contribute to anything that we don’t know or have known…on the contrary, it is you who is benefiting from all these conversations…

    5. HOw you interact with TUrks is absolutely not the same as you interact with Armenians on thee pages… your treatment toward Turks is soo loving and careful and soft that I get sick in my stomach.. your actions and your words do not match.. asking questions about things that is very obvious is not how you argue.. or asking denialists to come back to our pages to “debate” who know nothing about anything will not fix the issue…

    6. Your unfortunate slip up with comments about my people and my ancestors are OBVIOUS factors that tells how you feel deep down but you cover it up very well because your cause or your hidden agenda has not materialized yet.. you have to keep it cool to get what yu want but sometimes that backfires.. and we have seen that many time… but yet we allow you to come back here and “be” part of this discussion….

    7. Your understanding about the magnititude of the GEnocide is very limited and you are not fit to have a discussion with those hands down know MORE than you  but yet you have the balls to preach to them.. this is what I can arrogance… or condemn us.. really???? please….

    oh and finally: you said what is neutrality? are you pretending you did not know what I meant?..well if you did not.. then here it is: i was referring to being neutral as you stated many times (unless I am way off.. my friends can confirm or reject but that is the impression I got from your many posts)…. here is the legal definition of the word neutral.

    neu·tral

    1.
    not taking part or giving assistance in a dispute or war between others: a neutral nation during World War II.

    2.
    not aligned with or supporting any side or position in a controversy: The arbitrator was absolutely neutral.

    3.
    of or belonging to a neutral state or party: neutral territory

    Thank you have a nice day 

                     

  1149. Necati Xanum— you make no sense whats so ever… your comment was just mix of words .. did not make sense.. 

    You said that words can’t be used when it comes to the borders and unity of Turkey.. well my genocidal friend, what exactly do you mean? does that mean you will kill without remorse?  you will wipe out innocent people just to keep your borders and “UNITY” of Turkey? of course yu would.. i believe you were the one who said REVENGE REVENGE REVENGE.. did you not?? oh my genodical friend, people like you do not belong among human beings..

    If you are worried about your boys not being killed, why don’t you write a letter to your genocidal president/prime minister/foreign affairs minister and ask them to stop the lies, distortion, brainwashing, article 301, murder, killings, and denial.. maybe then once the hint of reform hits the streets of Turkey that is stained by all the innocent people’s blood maybe then you won’t see any more killings..but don’t BLAME OTHERS for your own losses or any trouble that stirs in your country.. i know it is very convenient to blame others and use that as an excuse to murder and kill.. Armenians know this tactic very well…. 

    John the Turk– you are the empitamy of “absolute ignorance and stupidity”…. please don’t embarass yourself like this again…    

  1150. for the n’th time, gor, I am talking about attacks on civilians, more specifically about attempts to destroy whole groups by killing – or by putting in life endangering situations or forcibly convert to other relgions, or destroying cultually significant monuments – members of ethnic, religious and national groups with the aim of destroying whole communities in part or in whole. I am not talking about the right of certain groups to dominate others or rights to stay in certain place for instance the country in which one was born (something which is guaranteed by international law, as far as I know)

  1151. Mr. Ragnar,
    “Representatives of the Kurds never signed the Lausanne agreement. It is not rerlevant. Of course it was very courageous of Turgut Özal to say “Maybe there are Kurdish blood in my veins” or something like that.
    The first  Turkish Grand National Assembly (TGNA)  was formed by not only Turks but by all ethnicities. So, representatives of this Assembly signed the treaty on behalf of all people of Turkey.
    Kurds earlier were able to obtain high positions, but not AS KURDS. Roughly one quarter of the parliamentarians in the TC parliament have been kurdish for many years, but until recently, if any of them had said “I am a Kurd” from the rostrum, they would have been arrested at once. This is the historical heritage.”
    I never heard someone arrested for only saying ” i am a kürd”.Anyway, but all are past now as you indicated.
    “But you have not commented on the return to the villages, which I mentioned.”
    Some willages were emptied for  the safety of habitants against terrorist pkk. i am sure they will return after solving the problem.
    “no, the PKK for a long time fought for democratic rights of the type that minorities in many other countries have.”
    I still do not agree with this. At least what i read from their media says they want to divide Turkey and set up a another state. (not only Autonomy which is not acceptable for me either.)
    “Czekoslovakia was divided because the  Slovaks did not want to be in the same state with the Czeks. It was done peacefully. Norway broke away from Sweden peacefully in 1905. The Soviet union was dismantled in 1991, it happened peacefully.”
    It is not us who have the right to decide at dismantle but those who died for the soil. I think we must ask to  Mehmed the Conqueror, Suleiman the Magnificient, Sultan Selim , Sokullu Mehmet Pasha , all janissaries who died at war fields  for advise…
    ”   I condemn the killing of civilians whether it is done by the PKK or the Turkish armed forces.”


    Turkish Army never kills civilians if not shooted by. Their heart  are in fact so soft comparing to US soldiers….Hmmm.. just  sparked: maybe we must hire 10 or 20 thousands of US soldiers  to fight against terrorists in the region.  You know they will shoot anyone they think  is  a danger without any warning…And human rights never works for them.
     
    Have a nice day.
    Necati Genis
     
     
     
     



  1152. ragnar naess,     the wartime atrocities you’re talking about were not attempts to destroy whole groups by killing members with the aim of destroying whole communities in part or in whole. Because they were not such attempts but just wartime atrocities involving the civilian population, they were not legally or internationally recognized as attempts to destroy an ethnic, religious and national group.  For the n’th time…

  1153. Any word on the massacres (‘The Bulgarian Horrors’) of the Bulgarian civilians by the Turks and bashibazouks that took place before the events you so much like talking about?  You condemn terror, do you not? Then do you care stating for the record as to who started it in 1876?

  1154. “It is not us who have the right to decide at dismantle but those who died for the soil. I think we must ask to  Mehmed the Conqueror, Suleiman the Magnificient, Sultan Selim , Sokullu Mehmet Pasha , all janissaries who died at war fields  for advise…”

    Necati, this is a very odd statement.   You seem a bit brain-washed.  I really can’t relate to this type of thinking, this reverence for conquerors and war-mongerers.  If shedding of blood determines who has the right to speak, than the innocent Armenians who were murdered on this land have much to say.  

  1155. hello,
    im a kurd from the town of haymana, in ankara province.  we kurds of haymana mainly lived in the villages around haymana until the 50s and 60s where most moved into the town center.  one of the magestic buildings of haymana is called Caldag ilkokulu (çaldag primary school), its the oldest building in haymana and i suspect it was an armenian church.  also can anyone enlighten me if the word haymana is of armenian origin.  i suspect it is.  if anyone wants more info about haymana i would love to supply that information.  what is sad about haymana is in the town’s municipiality  records there are many armenian names up until 1915-16s and out of sudden those names disappear of the records.  we know what has happened and believe me many of us thinks its sad and we share your pain. 
    your sincerely,
    F.B

  1156. just a bit brainwashed Boyajian ? must be the typical British understated version of “a bit” (as in “it got a bit dicey for our chaps at Dunkirk…just a bit, mind you – old boy”).

    The individual is  massively….something. Here is a sampling his  ordinary, everyday prose:
     
    {necati –  Do we muslims need to convert to christianity to be treated as human as at least Hays…! What about thousands of civilians murdered by fascist Armenia in HOCALI Genocide Mr. Esayan? and illegally invaded Karabagh by Gaymenian pirates ?}  (@TodaysZaman 21 September, 2011)
     
    {necati says: was not 1million killed by Turks, it was 10milyon…so what ?} (@Asbarez July 15, 2011)
     
    {necati – …….you know that i was full of humanity until i met you Gaymenians in this f______ AW? sorry to tell you..i am not human , but a monster, a butcher, a pyschopat against you gaymenians…this is another reason for me to hate you gaymenians. you made me an animal.You must be proud of yourself.  especially that one , f______-up gayvery, the ex-commy} (@AW  August 20, 2011) (redacted paste of original post)
     
    {Necati Genis  – As a Turk, i prefer to keep the gate closed to Armenians after i listened to the speech of their president about seizing Agri. I also do not want any relation with them since they are the biggest racist i have ever seen. You will see this if you visit their sites on the internet. (Armenianweekly.com) Their every topic is about Turkey and black propaganda. It seems they are no different from their ancestors lived in Anatolia during ww1 .I do not trust them anymore . I know they will kill all of us Turks if they had any chance . It is their old habit.} (@TZ 27 July, 2011)
     
    {necati She is right. but she forget something that all immigrents in germany holding Turkish people are not neceserally Turkish. Most of criminals are kurdish or PKK people. I hate them having right Turkish passport.}(@TZ August 25, 2011.)
     
    {necati –  I think the remaining Armenians should also be deported because of their appearent support to PKK. we know that many terrorists in PKK are armenian. It is like we feed the enemy in our home. SORRY..BUT NO OTHER WAY …} (@TZ August 25, 2011)
     
    {necati – Turkey must stop enlisting Armenian-Turkish men. They are no use for this country. They are potential enemy of Turks. We must stop teaching them how to use gun. They will change their side in the next war and point their gun at Turkish soldiers. we have seen this in 1915-1918. dont make same mistake for second time. dont trust them. never..they can pay to be exempted from military service. }  (@TZ 26 August 2011)
     
    {necati –  I had no problem with Armenians living in Turkey. In fact, i have seen them good prople talent in arts. But after Gaymenia’s president said to the kids that he took Karabagh , next generation would take Agri; i start reading their media. What i saw is pure hatred, hyprocsy, black propaganda and so many lies about Us Turks. And my opinion is all Armenians are same. Those working in Turkey today may seem friendful to us, but whenever they get a litle power, or Turkey geets weaker their true face will be seen as in 1915-1918.They (Turkish Armenians) never condemned the president of Garmenia on his fascit words. We Turks are so naive to believe everyone who says a few nice words for us and smile…NO.ARMENIANS LOST MY TRUST…!}  (@TZ 26 August 2011)

    {necati –  Karabakh must be invaded tonight , if Turkish Gov had a little respect for Turkish Race, and history.}  (@TZ 29 July, 2011)
     

  1157. Firat B

    We are soulfully thankful to you to communicate with us…
    Haymana: Hay could be hye means Armenian…
    mana could be amana….in Arabic language means trust…
    As you know most of Turkish language is Arabic… 

    Please you should provide us more information because you live there…
    Can you send the photo of the school that you suspect it was a church…
    or any other place…

    I was born in Kirkuk now Kurdistan(Iraq) In schools I had many Kurdish and Turkman friends…Till now i communicate with them through the internet…One of my kurdish friend I see her regularly almost every weekend…I feel her blood is like me…Honest dedicated…Her mother was Turkish she never had good relation with her…Her father Kurdish…Everyone thinks she is Armenian…May be her DNA is…through the years…
    I hear now most of the Armenians in other parts of Iraq are moving to Kurdistan…
    Arbil and Kirkuk and Zakho

    Thanks once again for the information…
    We are extremely grateful for your contribution…
    Every new information we hear about our past is like treasure for us…
    Please continue… 

    Sylva

     

  1158. Firat B–  thank you for your post.. it is refreshing to hear that there is hope.. that there are people besides the genocidal turkish denialists.. there is another world out there… a world that consists of people who actually put aside their egoes and admit the truth.. thank you..

    what do you think of our genocidal denialists necati’s words? how do you feel about such people who think others have no value?

    Necati- i would not continue commenting because the more you comment, the more sickening your coments become…      

     

  1159. Apres Gor jan.. lav asetsir… exactly… 

    Ragnar- see how you twists matters to fit your bill?
    oh he is goooodd but not that good… for the n’th times, not sure why he is here and for what purpose… 

  1160. Avery 
    Those People on these site are not Muslims…
    They are Turks…And who follow them are paid…
    Muslims every where love Armenians…
    They know we are “Trustful Race” 
    Since my school age… MY friends were Muslims
    I have more Muslim friends than Christian…
    I do Repeat what Arab Poet Assad Rustom said in May 1916 when they hanged his friends

    “The Son of Turks you are never Muslims…”

    Please forget about Religion 
    We are Armenians
    We have Faith before being Christians 
    Our genes will not change
    By changing our Religion.
    Now we have Komidas who is our Saint 
    Treating Us with his music…
    He is alive in every Armenian Home…
    Even my Muslim Friends like his music…
    I forward to them…
    Those Turks they never read Quran…
    Armenians in Arab Countries Know about
    Ayat al-Quran more than them 
    They are Turks Paid to insult us and revenge
    Even good Turk will not do what they are doing…See how they are killing the Kurds who Are Sunni Muslims But they are not Turks they are Kurds…!

    And many on this site pretend they are from Europe
    I can feel “they are not” 
    if they are real Christian will not protect the criminals 
    Who have slashed the body of pregnant ladies to know their sex…
    But they are Neither Christian Nor Muslims…
    They are paid to publish a book…
    Every one should not waste their time and teach them…
    Money comes before their principles
    As they say…”Money talks …money walks” 
    Full stop. 

     
     

  1161. Sykvia md poetry

    how can you say racist things like this? Do you believe you are excused because you write in poetry?

      

  1162. hiya sylvia and other friends, thanx for your warm comments.  i will try and post some pictures about the armenian church of haymana to you.  i ve asked a few and i’ve been told that it was a church.  shortly i will post a few pictures.  and also i will post a sad real story about a few brave armenians from haymana who returned from the exile in syria to sue those who had taken their property and money, only to be imprisoned for making false allegations.  the story was taken from a turkish nationalist inhabitant of haymana and the real story is in between the lines.  i will post the long version of it as soon as i get hold of the book itself.  its called ”haymana throughout history”.  we, the kurds of haymana are mainly sheikh beseini kurds, originated from xaneqin, kirmashan and kirkuk of southern kurdistan.  and in şerfname, a book about the kurdish clan from the 16th century, our tribe is mentioned as a tribe that lives near armenian tribes and that they wear similar clothes.  About that Necati fella, i dont really have time to read the rubbish that hes writing.  you can only discuss with people who are openminded not a bloody bigot.  what can i learn from his comments?  the funny thing is this idiots are everywhere.  i never visit turkish nationalistic sites or listen to their music.  but whenever i wanna listen to kurdish music, even those from iran and iraq which has got nothing to do with turkey or turkness i still se racist comment underneath the clips.  why?  i really am chuffed!!! do you know what turks have done in the recent Van earthquake??(and its not just the internet talk/rumours) it was in the main-stream  turkish newspapers and tv’s, some turks send rocks, batons, dirty women lingerie, dirty underwears, swimsuits and dildos (sorry)  to suffering kurds.  if these can do this now in the 21 century, i can imagine what they must have done 90 years ago. 
    peace to you all.
    f.b.
     

  1163. Ragnar- and what is it about Sylvia’s poem that is racist? is not she expressing her views and ain’t it the truth? 

    She is right about you as well..  

  1164. gor

    I refer you to the book “Death and Exile” by McCarthy. It is widely cited, at the latest by Zurcher in his “the Unionist legacy”, and also by authors in the Naimark/Gocek/Suny book. Particularly the large Turkish communities in northern bulgaria were almost completely destroyed. Today there are only Turkish communities of any size in the Southern part of Bulgaria. So you are completely off the mark.  these were not unfortunate civilian casualties during a war.

  1165. firat B

    thank you for your post. In oslo I worked with a kurd who came to Norway from one of the villages around haymana for several years (in the years 1979-83, we researched the situation of Kurds and Turks in the working places in Oslo and also assisted them in obtaining their rights ). His name is Hasan Yildirim.  Today he lives in Ankara. You can send the pictures to me on the email rnpost@online.no. How you will send it to the other people here in our discussion in the AW I dont know. They must answer themselves 

  1166. What is wrong with Necati’s comments? What is objectionable?  Armenians were bad boys. Kurds should be good boys.Turks  should also be good boys.What did Hrant Dink advise Kurds in Sivas? 

  1167. Please, dear Firat be careful from some people on this site
    They have cages in every place
    To grab you …
    To put you in Turkish jail
    Where the rats will be your friends 
    Like they did for Ragip Zarakolo and his son…and even 
    They threaten all Arab writers in Saudi kingdom
    (real Islamic place as we say in Arabic Mahd Al-islam—
    Islams birth place… not to write any thing about the Turks
    They have 100s’ of journalist jailed …
    No one can escape from them
    Even the god is scared…
    From their hidden scimitars…
    Don’t send any photos 
    Keep with you
    We will meet you…Somewhere…
    Every thing is easy now a days..
    You have an internet 
    So you reach every where 
    Even to President Barrack Obama…
    And send the photo…
    You are not powerful more than Pamuk Orhan 
    Who is Real Turkish and lives somewhere else…
     

    Sylva-MD-Poetry 

     

  1168. dear friends, thanx for your positive comments and feedback ,
    and sylvia, i believe in god and bad in human nature, bad is just bad and there must be sociological, genetical and other mixed reasons for their badness.  as you point it out, ragıp zarakolu, orhan pamuk, ismail beşikçi (whos a real turk, as opposed to those assimilated to turkness, and a prominent kurdish rights supporter and intellectual), and countless good people do also live in turkey.  please belive in the silent majority.  things change in turkey and people are not afraid of the brainless fascists anymore.  And kurds are not afraid anymore because we are everywhere and many.  sorry about my last message , its full of grammar mistakes and incoherence, because it was written late night and i was doing other things simultaneously :) 
    take care,

  1169. firat b:  since these are public pictures, best way is to post them on a public picture sharing site, such as picasa.  http://picasa.google.com/

    You need to setup a free account and then you can post the pics there and then post the link here @AW. 

    If you don’t want to post it publicly, you will need to send the pics to Armenian organizations  that collect Genocide related evidence. 

    Let me collect the suitable ones. I’ll post it here @AW later (a few days).

  1170. unfortunately ragnar naess,      McCarthy’s Death and Exile: The Ethnic Cleansing of Ottoman Muslims, 1821 1922 is basically the only source you keep referring to. You should know, I hope, that referring to one source is an unscholarly, dilettante approach. I showed you more than once that McCarthy’s views are considered by many genocide scholars and historians as “defensively pro-Turkish”, using Aviel Roshwald’s terminology. Yet, you stubbornly disregard their assessments. You also disregard the fact that this turkocentric scholar uses the term ‘ethnic cleansing’ and not ‘genocide’ in the title of his book. Are you sure you’re not fixated on one particular viewpoint of a Turkophile who’s been accused by Colin Imber of “following a Turkish nationalistic agenda”? Are you sure you’re not showing bias by referring to an author, whose works, according to the International Association of Genocide Scholars, “engage in severely selective scholarship that grossly distorts history” and serve, according to Donald Bloxham, “to muddy the waters for external observers, conflating war [such as Russo-Turkish or WWI – G] and one-sided murder with various discrete episodes of ethnic conflict”?  Yes, McCarthy is sometimes cited, his work, as Bloxham acknowledges, “has something to offer in drawing attention to the oft-unheeded history of Muslim suffering and embattlement [and] also shows that vicious nationalism was by no means the sole preserve” of the Ottoman ruling elite. Nevertheless, Bloxham identifies McCarthy’s work as “a part of a wider project of undermining scholarship affirming the Armenian genocide by reducing it to something analogous to a population exchange”. I suspect you know all this, yet you advance McCarthy’s flawed views on these pages because his standpoint reverberates in your Turkophile psyche. This is so obvious.
     
    What kind of statement is this: “Today there are only Turkish communities of any size in the southern part of Bulgaria.” What end result of Turkish subjugation of Bulgaria and national liberation struggle against the Turkish yoke would you expect? I don’t get it. Do you advocate ruthless occupation throughout the world? Do you advocate colonization? Are you against freedom-fighting for liberation of native lands from occupiers? What’s your point? You condemn terror? I’ll take it. But has any national liberation struggle proceeded bloodless? And if you condemn terror, for the n’th time, do you condemn the slaughter of tens of thousands of Bulgarian civilians by the Turks before the known events? I still wish to see you condemning the terror that was savagely unleashed by the Turks and Muslims before the Bulgarians retaliated in 1877-78.
     
    You are completely off the mark: only an amateurish scholar won’t see that atrocities against the Bulgarian Turks did actually occur during the Russo-Turkish war in which Turkish villagers were perceived as the civilian fraction of the war enemy. Only an amateurish scholar would conflate war atrocities with one-sided murder of a nation outside any war theatre.

  1171. Dear Avery,
    At  any  cost, keep  firat b  talking ,here  .His comments are worth reading and how.You have  done well directing  him wehre to post the pictures,but also here would be good if possible.
    Few  ,if any realize  that these days things  change at a faster rythm….
    Hopefully  thousands  of  like those firat b  mentions  multiply by thousands to become millions…then we can dialog.Otherwise  the petrified  fascist  ruling clique  in great Turkey,supported by ¨allies¨ will carry on …
    beware  of those latter too please!!! 

  1172. Avery jan– excellent compelation of Genocidal necati’s comments… Thank you..

    I am absolutely disgusted by this person Necati.. disgusted…

    Gor jan– JANNNNNNN.. bull’s eye…  

    Firat B– you are breath of fresh air .. seriously… dealing with such filth on our pages (referring to the denialists nationalists clique) really dumpens my mood.. to read your posts and how you think makes me smile.. thank you.. and hope you can figure out how to post those pictures here on our forum as well.. as I would love to see them..

      

  1173. gor, no they were civilians and even if the Bulgarians took back their old territories they should have been allowed to stay and not be molested. The massacre of bulgarians  by the bashi bozouks was terrible as all other massacres are.But this is no argument in the theme we discuss. And you do not relate to the story as it is accepted by everybody. that they “were perceived as” is no argument. The laws of war indicated that they should be spared. period. Let us leave this theme

  1174. “Let us leave this theme.”      Then be the master of your word and leave it. And never attempt to draw parallels between atrocities against civilians in the wartime, whether or not the laws of war indicated they should be spared, and outright deliberate mass slaughter of a people in the peacetime, whether the common sense, civility, and decency suggested that innocent people involved in no war activity should be left unharmed.
     
    “The massacre of Bulgarians by the bashibazouks was terrible as all other massacres are. But this is no argument in the theme we discuss.”      This is an argument that lies in the context of the theme we discuss. To state that Bulgarian Turks were massacred in 1877 without regard for the fact that a year earlier Turks and Muslims massacred the Bulgarians, is a demonstration of sheer dilettantism in historical research.
     
    “[…] even if the Bulgarians took back their old territories [Turks] should have been allowed to stay and not be molested.”      Occupiers are generally driven out. Period. Whether the natives always can or succeed in driving them out is another question. The general trend, however, is that occupiers should not be allowed to stay on the lands of other peoples. I wish expulsion of occupiers proceeded bloodless, but it was not the case on many occasions.  Should the German occupiers stayed in Norway or they should have been driven out?

  1175. firat b:

    here are three Armenian Genocide related sites that may be able to receive and save
    the pics of Haymana Church. Write to them and see if they are able to help.
    If they do not respond at once, do not be discouraged: all organizations have quirks
    and bureaucratic inertia. Let us know it goes.

    1. The Armenian Genocide Museum-Institute (Yerevan)

    http://www.genocide-museum.am/eng/index.php

    2. Zoryan Institute (USA, Canada)

    http://www.zoryaninstitute.org/

    3. GOMIDAS INSTITUTE ARMENIANS GENOCIDE DOCUMENTATION PROJECT (London)

    http://www.gomidas.org/gida/index_gida.htm



  1176. gor

    well, you end up with a question, but be a master and stop our discussion. I have made my points    

  1177. monastras

    it seems you have left us. Maybe you have gone into the question of the allowances in 1915 to keep Armenian deportees alive, and you have realized that there are some arguments for the thesis that the government did not want them to live.  of course there are some more questions to concern. I believe that the local officials also had some responsibilities for the Armenians that were relocated, and this should be sorted out. But then you have left, or have you?

  1178. Monastras

    Well, I dont think I am naive at all. So please explain! Our last exchange of words related to the question of money allotted to the Armenian deportees and I understood that you would comment on it. But you havent commented on the amounts provided by Gerlach and those given by Halacoglu which Gerlach thinks inadvertently proves his point. We know from the research and mainly from the existing cases of verdicts on genocide that intent mainly must be inferred from the actions of the assumed perpetrator, in this case the Ottoman State, represented by Talat Pasha as minister of the interior, or possibly by the director of IAMM. How can the obvious discrepancy between the funds allotted to muhacirs and to Armenians who were relocated be explained? Your suggestion that this can be explained by sequence (first the muhacirs were settled, then the Armenians) cannot explain it at all because the sums allotted to Armenians were so ridiculously small  compared to those allotted to the muhacirs

  1179. It is important to somethat Armenians admit that Turks suffered also, and that their suffering contributed to later actions taken against Christian minorities in the Ottoman empire, especially the genocide of the Armenians; because it is believed that this will aid the ‘dialogue’.   Several people here have already acknowledged that yes, Turks did suffer massacres in the Balkans prior to WWI.  

    The trouble with this discussion comes from the fact that some point to the attack on civilians in Turkish villages without acknowledging that they took place within the context of independence movements as indigenous peoples attempted to oust those who had occupied ‘their land’ and were seen as aligned with those who previously attacked the natives.  None of this happened in a vacuum.

    (Innocent Turks were targeted because they were seen as members of the unwanted oppressor group.  But even in the midst of attacks on Turks, there are accounts of non-Turks protecting their Turkish neighbors.  And the opposite is also true.  Some people are always able to distinguish right from wrong and are willing to take chances to do the right thing, while others are subject to the group-think phenomenon of ethnic hatred.   People are complex and independence struggles are seldom bloodless. )

    It doesn’t help Turkey to see her “dark spots” if she is not made to acknowledge that the over-reaching of the Ottoman Empire brought on its own backlash.  Individuals were killed, whether soldier or civilian, on both sides, due to the clash between those who wished to usurp and dominate and those who wanted to exercise their right to freedom and self-determination.  We all (you, me and everyone with balanced thinking) acknowledge that the massacres of innocent Turks in the Balkans was as tragic as any massacre, but it cannot be considered a mitigating factor for the later acts of vengeance against Christians in Asia Minor.  

    Turkey’s “dark spots”  include more than an amnesia for past bad acts, it includes an unwillingness to acknowledge in the present, an institutional blindness, an almost religious fervor for ‘Turkishness’, and contempt for anyone who doesn’t revere Turkey in return.  There is a perverse patriotism at work when schools and streets, and public squares are named for those who commit genocide.  Today’s ‘sultans’ wear modern dress, but they have yet to adapt to the modern understanding of what it means to live in a multicultural, democratic society where no group is superior to the other. 

    It may be comforting to Turks, to acknowledge the tragedy of the massacres that Turks suffered, but it is foolish to beat this drum among descendants of the victims of the Armenian genocide who are still waiting for Turkey to acknowledge her crimes, and see little determining connection between the events in the Balkans and the Armenian Genocide.  There is no substitute for a full Turkish confession and restitution to bring this matter toward reconciliation.   Armenians are not looking for more dialogue.  Armenians want Turkey to remove all excuses, and acknowledge the Genocide as the historical fact that it is and then to do all that is proper to restore to Armenia what is rightfully hers.   And we want all just people to stand with us in acknowledging the truth and the need for justice.   No more minimizing and denying.  No more blaming the victims.  No more insistence on historical commissions to re-establish that which has already been established in volume upon volume of documents.  

    In my opinion, your approach to the problem between Turks and Armenians resembles someone trying to remove weight from one side of the scales of justice to minimize the imbalance, in order to appease the guilty.  Yet clearly, the weight of guilt leans decidedly toward Turkey.   The truth is obvious to those who are willing to see it.  Why should we pretend we don’t see the truth as clearly as we do?  So that the ignorant can remain blissfully in their ignorance?

    Can Turks prove their innocence?  Can they remove the name Armenia from all ancient maps, including Ottoman maps detailing Armenian vilayets?  Can they explain how a population was ‘deported’ during a war but never returned?  Can they explain countless eye-witness accounts of the extermination of a nation?    Can they discredit the archives of numerous countries?  Can they ignore the news reports in the world’s newspapers at the time.   Can they seriously retreat to the paranoia-based defense that “all the other nations ganged up on them and created a pretext to dismantle their empire.”  Can everyone else be lying?  Can they be allowed to go unpunished indefinitely?

  1180. hmmmm.. this is the first…Guess Monastras is now labeling Ragnar for being naive.. oh my goodness, this discussion is getting better and better…

    Ragnar- and you were saying??? i am assuming and as I said before, Monastras has nothing to contribute but then again she did manage to all you naive… what do you think about that???   just curious…

    Boyajian jan– bravo.. good questions..    

  1181. ‘Armenians are not looking for more dialogue.’  Right Boyajian,  we are being dialogued  to death. Time for the Criminals to tally up everything they owe us and start paying. Compound interest is accruing daily.
     
     
    It is interesting that apologists for the Denialist Turks who presumably believe in dialogue, reconciliation, and such rarely confront Anti-Armenian Turks in their own back yard. They are ready to upbraid Sylva-MD for an arguably, allegedly insensitive poem, but fail to write  one single word of criticism directed at the author of  inarguably vicious Anti-Armenian hatred being spread everywhere, examples of which were amply provided. Since Sylva-MD wrote the poem in direct response to my post, the Doyen of Dialogues – who criticized SylvaMD – must have also read my post. So where is the criticism of Genis-oglu ? Another inadvertent manifestation of latent pro-Turk bias ?
     
     
    The same Doyen of Dialogue is  strangely absent where advocacy of dialogue is clearly most needed – in the Turks’  own back yard.
    Here is a sampling of what we Armenians are facing in the personality of some modern Turks. The redacted quotes are from a recent article by TodaysZaman columnist MARKAR ESAYAN. (Kudos to TZ for publishing articles such as that).
     
    {Removing Armenians  from Anatolia is one of the rare achievement the CUP leaders had. It was successively done although some unwanted events occurred. You must also remember that Armenians are the most racist nation in the world.}
    {Just as modern Armenian gangs confirmed what we know about the criminal Armenian nation, a clan of terrorists. A disease to Turkey and humanity.}
    {This is an incendiary and inflammatory article that attacks Turkish culture and people. Shame on the author for publishing Armenian fanaticism and propaganda.}
    {Unfortunately, not all Armenian terrorists were relocated. The ones in Istanbul were allowed to remain. There offspring still live in Turkey as citizens. The ones in the countryside who attacked Turkey were the ones who removed. But the wealthy ones in Istanbul who financed these attacks were allowed to stay. This was a huge mistake and an insult to the Turkish people. Wealthy Armenians got away with their crimes against Turkey and were even rewarded for their crimes with citizenship.}
    {Armenians were removed from Turkey because of their crimes. Turkey defended herself from Armenian terrorism. The “Muslim Anatolians” know best of all the Armenian crimes. We have experienced them first hand. By the way, you are a Turk. All citizens of Turkey are called Turkish.}
    BTW: 9 out of 12   comments under that article were Anti-Armenian, 1 was neutral by a Turk, and 2 were by Armenians.
      
    This is the norm. Anytime there is an Armenian related article, the hatemonger come out in force.
    I have yet to see any strong counter by champions of dialogue  that ply their trade freely on the pages of ArmenianWeekly.
    There is one Turk woman that regularly, passionately, and fearlessly counters the Denialist Turk posters  @TZ, but that’s about it.
     
     
    Paging Doctor Naess, paging  Doctor Naess,……Dialogue Doctor needed @TZ. Dialogue Doctor needed @TZ.   STAT.

  1182. “Can Turks prove their innocence?  Can they remove the name Armenia from all ancient maps, including Ottoman maps detailing Armenian vilayets?”

    Turks are guilty of what?  What kind of thinking and logic is this?  What exactly is the crime I have committed?  How about sticking to the fatcs, you know, plain old fashioned truth?  The kind the editors seem to abhor in here…

    Ancient vilayets can be found in history books.  I have many old maps that show many ancient places with their ancient names.  In different languages and cultures, sometimes the same place has many different names.  What exactly is the point?   

    I invite you all to this century, where we all live. 

  1183. Avery jan– i love love love love your post… great comment.. thank you for the examples.. lets see how Ragnar will respond?  would he respond by his normal way toward denialists or really push his dialogue like he does on Armenian on these hatemongers….Staying tuned…

  1184. Boyajian, 

    You were and are always polite in your words…
    We all confirm with Avery and all other suffered friends who had like me a high blood pressure by reading denialists articles…not forgetting our Passionate Gayane…Who has hot Armenian blood like me and more…
    Boyajian… We must share your “Heartily phrases” and work to apply what you have suggested…

    [‘Armenians are not looking for more dialogue.’  
    We are being dialogued  to death. 
    Time for the Criminals to tally up everything they owe us and start paying. 
    Compound interest is accruing daily.]

    I am sure in every Turkish home…there are countless pieces of Armenian belongings …
    from gold, antiques, paintings, cloths, pens, books, ink…
    If they are fair let them return to Armenian museums…
    Forget the lands…they will never return back…!

    Do you know that there is no word definition denialist in Merriam-Webster Dictionary but in Oxford dictionary…and in wikipedia written Denialism

    We should unite together with our psychologist Boyajian to publish a book
    Called the ‘Denialist’…Each one of us contributing a chapter…after having almost two-year experience on this site…ignoring our work… our income and concentrating on people…
    who sell their souls backing the criminals…who are continuing to insult and killing more by civilized helicopters…innocent children…calling them terrorist…

    I respect our honest friend ‘Firat’ He never answered them back…
    All of us…We should learn from him…This is the best lesson they can receive… 

    SP

     

  1185. “Turks are guilty of what?”It seems this gentleman either suffers from dementia or has just recovered his memory.
    “What exactly is the point?”If you do not know what the point is then read the article & all the above 1300 comments.
    Welcome to the 21st century.It’s no more 1915.

  1186. Murat,      you exhibit the traits of a cowardly behavior. Not long ago I agreed to debate and presented counterarguments to the points you’ve made re: population of Western Armenians and the fate they’ve suffered in the hands of your ancestors. You never responded to them. I hope dr naess noticed your disappearance.
     
    Now you
    pop up with rhetorical questions “Turks are guilty of what? What kind of thinking and logic is this? What exactly is the crime I have committed?”  Turks are guilty of perpetrating genocide of a people and denying their guilt. You joined the chorus of denialist Turks.
     
    The point of Armenia being present in ancient maps is an attempt to drum into your denialist head that there were an ancient people who were present on the Babylonian World Map Imago Mundi (6th century BC), on the Behistun Inscription (5th century BC), on the Map of Posidonius (1st century BC), on the Map of Pomponius Mela (1st century AD), on the Ptolemy World Map (2nd century AD), and many others afterwards, including the Ottoman maps, that were exterminated in 1915-1923 by your Ittihadist ancestors.
     
    Before coming to this century some indigenous nations had lived through several millennia. Other alien nations chose to exterminate them. Therefore, in order for both of them to live in this century, a murderer nation must admit the wrongdoings and apologize. This is how the co-existence is possible in this century.

  1187. Boyajian,       wording is important, needless to say.
     
    “Several people here have already acknowledged that yes, Turks did suffer massacres in the Balkans prior to WWI.”    Yes, but only in the context of earlier massacres that Turks committed against the natives. You do mention this later in the comment.
     
    “Innocent Turks were targeted because they were seen as members of the unwanted oppressor group.”   Also, because the natives retaliated for previous massacres committed by the Turks and because in the eyes of the Russians and Bulgarians Turks represented a civilian segment of a party to the war they waged against Russian troops and Bulgarian paramilitaries.
     
    “We all acknowledge that the massacres of innocent Turks in the Balkans were as tragic as any massacre, but it cannot be considered a mitigating factor for the later acts of vengeance against Christians in Asia Minor.”   But in contrast to Greeks, who mobilized themselves tidily to exercise their right to freedom and self-determination, Armenians never organized a massive self-determination movement, except for a few cases of local resistance. The Armenian genocide was not just an act of vengeance for Turkish losses in the Balkans; it was a calculated move aimed at emptying the Armenian vilayets in order to keep as much lands as possible for the Turks. Even notorious genocide denialist Bernard Lewis admits that.

  1188. Murat, present day Turkey is guilty of engaging in a campaign of denial of the genocide of Armenians committed by their Ottoman predecessors.  The vast majority of individual Turks may be innocent, but their government and it’s leaders are not.  The claim made against Turkey is not made against individuals, as you clearly know, but against a nation which has yet to pay for this crime.   Don’t play dumb.

  1189. Also, Murat, Turkey has destroyed or allowed the desecration of countless Armenian structures and churches in their effort to help their citizens and the world forget that the Armenians ever existed on these lands.  (The occasional reconstruction of an old church into a museum is as transparent as your feigned innocence).   A simple study of the maps of the region from the earliest known maps, onward, shows that Armenians had a continuous presence in the region throughout recorded history…until the relative newcomer Turks decided that the Armenians should be eliminated so that they could achieve their fantasy of Pan-Turkey.  This is a crime, Murat, as you know.

    Any more comments about the rest of my questions?:
    Can they  (Turks) explain how a population was ‘deported’ during a war but never returned?  Can they explain countless eye-witness accounts of the extermination of a nation?    Can they discredit the archives of numerous countries?  Can they ignore the news reports in the world’s newspapers at the time.   Can they seriously retreat to the paranoia-based defense that “all the other nations ganged up on them and created a pretext to dismantle their empire.”  Can everyone else be lying?  Can they be allowed to go unpunished indefinitely?


     

  1190. ‘Forget the lands…they will never return back…!’ 


    Yes they will,  Sylva-MD. Have no doubt. Never have doubt.

     

  1191.  
    Boyajian
    YOU
    WRITE:
    It
    is important to somethat Armenians admit that Turks suffered also, and that
    their suffering contributed to later actions taken against Christian minorities
    in the Ottoman empire, especially the genocide of the Armenians; because it is
    believed that this will aid the ‘dialogue’. Several people here have already
    acknowledged that yes, Turks did suffer massacres in the Balkans prior to WWI.
    COMMENT:
    I
    believe it will facilitate the road of 
    truth seeking Turks to acknowledge the crime committed against Armenians.
    This is in line with theories of conflict solution.
    YOU
    WRITE:
    The
    trouble with this discussion comes from the fact that some point to the attack
    on civilians in Turkish villages without acknowledging that they took place
    within the context of independence movements as indigenous peoples attempted to
    oust those who had occupied ‘their land’ and were seen as aligned with those
    who previously attacked the natives. None of this happened in a
    vacuum.
    COMMENT:
    I
    have no disagreement on this point. All these events happened in a context. My
    concern is with human rights and excesses of killing, like what happened to the
    Armenians and to the Turks in bulgaria. See my arguments in the debate with
    gor.
    YOU
    WRITE:
    (Innocent
    Turks were targeted because they were seen as members of the unwanted oppressor
    group. But even in the midst of attacks on Turks, there are accounts of
    non-Turks protecting their Turkish neighbors. And the opposite is also true.
    Some people are always able to distinguish right from wrong and are willing to
    take chances to do the right thing, while others are subject to the group-think
    phenomenon of ethnic hatred. People are complex and independence struggles are
    seldom bloodless. )
    COMMENT:
    excuse me but now you sound like a subdued echo of gor. Yes, they are seldom
    bloodless, but thank God they need not be as bloodless as the violence of the
    late Ottoman Empire
    YOU
    WRITE:
    It
    doesn’t help Turkey to see her “dark spots” if she is not made to acknowledge
    that the over-reaching of the Ottoman Empire brought on its own backlash.
    Individuals were killed, whether soldier or civilian, on both sides, due to the
    clash between those who wished to usurp and dominate and those who wanted to
    exercise their right to freedom and self-determination. We all (you, me and
    everyone with balanced thinking) acknowledge that the massacres of innocent
    Turks in the Balkans was as tragic as any massacre, but it cannot be considered
    a mitigating factor for the later acts of vengeance against Christians in Asia
    Minor.
    COMMENT:
    the historical research is not clear on this. I believe that the Ottoman Empire
    tried to reform, and that considerable progress was made in certain areas.
    Compared to the excesses of colonialism the Ottoman Empire was not necessarily
    worse than others. But maybe I am mistaken. The question anyhow is less
    interesting regarding thedemand for Turkish givernments and Turks to apologize,
    the  influencing of Turks to apologize.
    The Turks should be confronted with what the ittihadists did in 1915-18, And the
    continuing harassment and even massacres during the early years of the
    Republic.
    YOU
    WRITE:
    Turkey’s
    “dark spots” include more than an amnesia for past bad acts, it includes an
    unwillingness to acknowledge in the present, an institutional blindness, an
    almost religious fervor for ‘Turkishness’, and contempt for anyone who doesn’t
    revere Turkey in return. There is a perverse patriotism at work when schools
    and streets, and public squares are named for those who commit genocide.
    Today’s ‘sultans’ wear modern dress, but they have yet to adapt to the modern
    understanding of what it means to live in a multicultural, democratic society
    where no group is superior to the other.
    COMMENT:
    Turkey
    has changes enormously in the last 20 years. To deny this is ridiculous. We must
    hope for a continual development for the better
    YOU
    WRITE:
    It
    may be comforting to Turks, to acknowledge the tragedy of the massacres that
    Turks suffered, but it is foolish to beat this drum among descendants of the
    victims of the Armenian genocide who are still waiting for Turkey to
    acknowledge her crimes, and see little determining connection between the
    events in the Balkans and the Armenian Genocide. There is no substitute for a
    full Turkish confession and restitution to bring this matter toward reconciliation.
    Armenians are not looking for more dialogue. Armenians want Turkey to remove
    all excuses, and acknowledge the Genocide as the historical fact that it is and
    then to do all that is proper to restore to Armenia what is rightfully hers.
    And we want all just people to stand with us in acknowledging the truth and the
    need for justice. No more minimizing and denying. No more blaming the victims.
    No more insistence on historical commissions to re-establish that
    which has already been established in volume upon volume of documents.
    COMMENTl:
    I
    can understand  the frustration of Armenians.
    I am dismayed and shocked by the attitude of nationalist Turks. We may hope for
    a development without dialogue, because we are tired. I speak for myself. I
    know that my situation is not comparable to yours. But I am encouraged by the
    activity of Turks who earnest want human rights and an honest attitude to
    Turkish history. I believe in dialogue with Turks who are concerned about what
    happened in 1915-16.  But if you are
    tired of dialogue, then don’t participate in it.
    YOU
    WRITE:
    In
    my opinion, your approach to the problem between Turks and Armenians resembles
    someone trying to remove weight from one side of the scales of justice to
    minimize the imbalance, in order to appease the guilty. Yet clearly, the weight
    of guilt leans decidedly toward Turkey. The truth is obvious to those who are
    willing to see it. Why should we pretend we don’t see the truth as clearly as
    we do? So that the ignorant can remain blissfully in their ignorance?
    COMMENT:
    To
    my mind the ittihadists were responsible for the catastrophe that befell the
    Armenians. I have no doubt about that. Of course theyr were guilty And the TC
    governments are guilty of minimizing and even falsifying the history. But I
    believe there are two ways of seeing the problem. One is that the Turks were
    bad from the start – genetically, as Sylvia MD will say? – and that the whole
    story of the Ottoman Empire is a story of unmitigated cruelty. Another way is
    to see the Empire as  responsible for the
    destruction of the Armenians in their ancestral lands, but not build some kind
    of fundamentalist superstructure around this horrible event. I believe many Armenians
    will have to retreat from an untenable position: including believing blindly in
    the Andonian papers and in the inherent cruelty of the Turks-
    YOU
    WRITE:
    Can
    Turks prove their innocence? Can they remove the name Armenia from all ancient
    maps, including Ottoman maps detailing Armenian vilayets? Can they explain how
    a population was ‘deported’ during a war but never returned? Can they explain
    countless eye-witness accounts of the extermination of a nation? Can they
    discredit the archives of numerous countries? Can they ignore the news reports
    in the world’s newspapers at the time. Can they seriously retreat to the
    paranoia-based defense that “all the other nations ganged up on them and
    created a pretext to dismantle their empire.” Can everyone else be lying? Can
    they be allowed to go unpunished indefinitely?
    COMMENT:
    well, this is about the future.  I can
    only repeat that Turks  in general have a
    long way to go in order to have a  fully
    democratic state.

  1192. gayane

    monastras wrote me a mail to my email adress claiming that she has written several extensive arguments to my question, but that she has been censored by the AW. Some of the participants have held this, mostly Turks, but I  remember also one Armenian participant. 

  1193. I am not beating the drum on massacres of Turks. I am answering questions which were put to me after you discovered my opinions on the dynamics which produced the Armenian Genocide. I would much more prefer to confront people like Monastras. I believe there is something to learn from this. But you may disagree, and even ask me to leave. I realize that the discussion is painful for you, and it saddens me. I have a high opinion of you and if you ask me to leave, I will leave. But we disagree on certain points, and I cannot see why I should agree on something I disagree on. 

  1194.  ‘I would much more prefer to confront people like Monastras’

    Why don’t you then Mr. Naess ?
    There are lots of people like Ms. Monastras @TZ.
    Their  commenting software is nowhere near as sophisticated as @AW, but they do allow multiple comments in the same thread.

    Any Armenian related subject @TZ brings out people like Ms. Monastras in droves.
    How is it that I have rarely (if ever) seen you there confronting ‘people like Monastras’ ?

  1195. Ragnar- i am sorry to dissapoint you but we all had our posts lost one time or another.. but it does not mean AW intentionally attacks Turkish commentators and censor their posts.. (even though some should be banned from our pages forever.. ).. so NO it is not just Turks but ALL OF US who experienced such things… These denialists need to get over themselves and stop whining…..

    Here is a solution: why don’t they copy their posts and save it somewhere else just in case they have to go back to it.. just to make sure they have it somewhere to repost if their original post do not go through… I do.. because we are dealing with information technology, systems and it is not always that the systems work perfectly.. just a thought..

    Just tell them stop using excuses and start typing…period…

    Gayane     

  1196. Ragnar- REALLY???

    You said the following:
    One is that the Turks were
    bad from the start – genetically, as Sylvia MD will say? – and that the whole
    story of the Ottoman Empire is a story of unmitigated cruelty. Another way is
    to see the Empire as  responsible for the
    destruction of the Armenians in their ancestral lands, but not build some kind
    of fundamentalist superstructure around this horrible event. I believe many Armenians
    will have to retreat from an untenable position: including believing blindly in
    the Andonian papers and in the inherent cruelty of the Turks-

     Maybe you missed the chapter in your history books that it was not the ARmenians who labeled Turks descendents of nomads who knew nothing but destruction and murder and looting and raping and stealing.. it is ALL OVER THE HISTORY pages my friend.. but of course you knew that… and for the n’th times.. we are not saying ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL TURKS are bad seeds… We are referring to those who vehemently deny and distort including all them genocidal physco denialists and their govt… see the difference?  STOP lumping everyone together and use it for your advantage…. we all know very well your mastery of twisting and manipulting and even coming up with your own words to serve your purpose….

    and here is the question to you: WHY NOT bring up a FACT… the fact that Turks ARE DESCENDENTS from such murderous tribes and there is nothing you can do or say to change it… it is what it is…

  1197. “Turks are guilty of what? What kind of thinking and logic is this? What exactly is the crime I have committed? […] Invite you all to this century, where we all live.”       Invitation accepted, Murat-bey.  The ‘this-century’ Republic of Turkey: (a) refuses to establish diplomatic relations with the Republic of Armenia; (b) maintainsthe blockade of Armenia; (c) threatened to drop bombs on and ‘show teeth’ to Armenia in the 1990s; (d) supported its Turkic outgrowth AzerBEYjan militarily during the self-determination war between AzerBEYjan and Artsakh (Nagorno-Karabakh); (e) takes anti-Armenian actions in bilateral relations with other states and advances anti-Armenianism in international organizations; (f) advances a precondition for normalization of bilateral Turkish-Armenian relations with Armenia’s relations with a third country.
     
    Now, refusal to establish diplomatic relations and economic blockade are considered hostile actions according to international law. These and several other actions are happening in this century where you so courageously invite us. Now, don’t play dumb, and explain, if you can, these modern-day hostile actions by your country.

  1198. Ragnar, I will try to keep my comments very plain.

    I never said that I am tired of dialogue.  I said “Armenians are not looking for more dialogue.”  It means that dialogue is not our goal.  It may be a tool toward our goal, but it is not our goal.  Our goal is much greater, and ‘dialogue’ can be a delay tactic in achieving this goal, especially when dialogue means debating known truth to appease those who just won’t deal honestly with known facts.

    Also, I never asked you to leave.  But I do ask you to make a moral choice.   I wish you could understand the need for resolution now, based on what is known now, not on what comes out of dialogue with those who want to minimize our tragedy.

    You say I sound like a subdued echo of Gor.  I am not even sure what this means, but I have certainly been treated to worse comparisons.  I have a lot of admiration for Gor.  

    And why do you keep going beyond responding to the content of others comments to making critiques of the quality of their comments?  Please do not elevate yourself in this way.  It is very off-putting to me.  

    Andonian-Shmandonian.  There is plenty of damning evidence without it 

  1199.  
    Boyajian
    YOU WRITE
    I
    never said that I am tired of dialogue. I said “Armenians are not looking for
    more dialogue.” It means that dialogue is not our goal. It may be a tool toward
    our goal, but it is not our goal. Our goal is much greater, and ‘dialogue’ can
    be a delay tactic in achieving this goal, especially when dialogue means
    debating known truth to appease those who just won’t deal honestly with known facts.
    COMMENT
    I
    will also try to write plainly. Of course Armenians are looking for something
    more than dialogue. I am very specifically talking about how we should go about
    influencing more Turks who are willing to listen. How will you do it?
    YOU
    WRITE
    Also,
    I never asked you to leave. But I do ask you to make a moral choice. I wish you
    could understand the need for resolution now, based on what is known now, not
    on what comes out of dialogue with those who want to minimize our tragedy.
    COMMENT
    I
    am afraid that when you talk about a moral choice you expect me to agree with
    some of the tenets  often uttered by the
    Armenians here in AW. Moral choice equals agreement with ME and with US. No, I
    disagree with many things. The idea that Turks were bad from the start – to put
    it in a somewhat rhetorical way – is an idea that actually functions to delay
    justice. I tried to point to mistaken ideas that do not serve the Armenian
    cause. This is moral resolve, but the instrument in furthering a moral point must be dialogue….sorry. I see no other way.
    YOU
    WRITE
    You
    say I sound like a subdued echo of Gor. I am not even sure what this means, but
    I have certainly been treated to worse comparisons. I have a lot of admiration
    for Gor.
    COMMENT
    Well,
    it is the idea that the Ottoman Empire was unreformable. I also respect gor,
    but I feel he is making gross mistakes, especially regarding 250.000 ordinary
    people who died as a result of ethnic cleansing. To say that “they were
    perceived as….” is true, but this is what human rights is about, to see people
    as people.
    YOU
    WRITE
    And
    why do you keep going beyond responding to the content of others comments to
    making critiques of the quality of their comments? Please do not elevate
    yourself in this way. It is very off-putting to me.
    COMMENT
    Well,
    it is good that you say it. I don’t think I did it in relation to you. I
    realize that it may be irritating
    Sylvia
    wrote on oct 27:
    Few
    people are digging to find bodies

    Every Turk Is happy

    Let the Kurds die under their land…

    This is their day…

    This is the opinion of every tongue of every Ottoman…
    What she is saying is racism to my mind. Why should I not comment on Sylvia and her poems? I am not elevating myself. This is hate speech and the moderators of AW should have criticized
    it.
    YOU
    WRITE
    Andonian-Shmandonian.
    There is plenty of damning evidence without it
    COMMENT
    Yes,
    exactly, then don’t repeat the dubious evidence. Don’t create difficulties for
    yourself by providing reactionary Turks with arguments about how Armenians use
    arguments discredited by  everybody else.
    Then you
    wrote on october 26
    QUOTE Ragnar, you said (I am restating in my own words) you
    don’t believe Armenians consider the Turkish experience enough when discussing
    the genocide with them. You think we should show Turks that we understand
    that they were victims, too, and that this had an impact on their psychology
    and contributed to setting the stage for the genocidal acts against Armenians.
    You think this is an important concession to make in order to smooth the way to
    an honest discussion about the genocide. Do I have this right? I can see your
    point to a certain extent, but I don’t think you give Armenians nearly enough
    credit for being able to sift through denial and distortion.UNQUOTE
    COMMENT:
    You do not get me completely right.  I
    believe Turks will listen more if one makes them understand that Armenians are
    aware of their misfortunes. But the fact that this had an impact on them and
    induced them to genocidal acts I would not say. I don’t think I ever advocated
    this. Apart from that I am sorry I do not understand the words “sift through
    denial and distortion” .Can you explain It?
    Then on october 26 you also
    write the following: “that they (Armenians) must now coddle and coo them (Turks)
    into repentance”. No, this is not my point. Trying to make it very specific, I
    said that you can mention it very briefly, and then bring the matter back again
    to what happened in 1915-16. It is a means to get anywhere with Turks who are
    interested. But on the other hand to ask them to shut up and tell them that
    they and their ancestors were bad from the start, using all kinds of examples
    from history, honestly speaking, do you expect them to listen? Why are
    Armenians creating this uphill difficulty for themselves?
    Then you say that the Turks
    in Bulgaria were not minorities but descendants of conquerors. I am shocked
    that you can say this when the theme is the ethnic cleansing of almost a
    million people. And about the term “minority”: with the establishment of the
    national state of Bulgaria they became minorities in the modern sense of the
    word, their rights were enshrined in the constitution, but the ethnic cleansing
    and massacres were terrible. I am surprised that you have this difficulty in
    admitting this. Is this a sign of moral exclusivity “my catastrophy is big,
    yours is small”, the same attitude many Jews had when they did not want to give
    Armenians a proper place in the American Holocaust Center?
    But OK, you say that you understand – to a certain extent – my point  about not alienating the Turks that actually are in the process of realizing that they have to go into this. And thank you
    for wishing me success…..
    And of course you are right that I should go and debate with Turks. I will do it. But you will hear from me from time to time. And I wish you success, too!

  1200. ragnar ness, thank you for the information and the email.  i was travelling around turkey for a while and didnt have the time to email the pictures.  i will in a few days time.  sorry for the delay.  take care..

  1201. One kurdish writer once said that in this country (i.e. Turkey) armenians are fighting to prove that they really have died (that they have been murdered, itsa little difficult to translate) and the kurds are fighting to prove that they live (at they exist).  forget about the denialists, as in the holly quran says, ”no matter what you do they wont see the truth because they are blind (they wont see and understand).  But believe me between themselves they accept that they have massacred the armenians.  there was a turkish historian who had clearence to tidy up the top secret turkish archives and despite having been ‘cleaned before’ there was still sensitive information.  the scholar/historian met his friend later on and said ”vah vah azizim, adamları gerçekten kesmişiz!” means ”alas my dear friend we really slaughtered those people”.  i read this ankedote the other day, if i remember right, in Taraf newspaper, in halil berktay’s corner (he is a historian).  but i might be wrong with the names.  although i remember clearly the piece.  anyway take care all of you and peace!

  1202. firat B

    thank you for your concern about the Armenian genocide, in which of course also Kurds had a role, as you say in your post. Actually, this is a very important point because many scholars hold that Kurdish tribes – asiretler – collaborated with the Ittihad ve Terakki – The CUP – in killing Armenians. however, some people hold that this has never been proved, or that the Kurdish tribes killed Armenians on their own, and not in collaboration with the CUP. Now the descendants of the tribes who are said to have killed Armenians in collaboration with the Ittihad ve Terakki are living today and several of the tribes live in the same place as they lived in 1915. I know names of one asiret that still lives in the same region as in 1915 and there are several other that we can find. One can even find these tribes in the internet, because they advertise their villages and communities for tourism, the same places where Armenians were killed in 1915.Are there honest people in these tribes that can confirm: yes, we heard from our grandparents that some people in the asiret or in the village – worked together with the CUP, and the CUP asked them to kill Armenians as they passed their territory? There is a doubt about the proof of this collaboration between the CUP and some asiretler, but if honest people today will say it,based on what they heard from their grand parents,  this may be a very good proof. Now it may be a problem and even dangerous for Kurdish people who live in Turkey to say anything about this, but if we want justice I think the question of those who collaborated with the CUP is bound to come up sooner or later.  Who were they? Actually genocide provide many names.  I will not say any names of tribes now because possibly they are innocent. I would rather ask them myself or have journalists ask, as they asked when Kurds found the mass grave in Kiziltepe in 2007, where some 300 Assyrian and Armenian men were buried after they had been killed in july 1915. They called for progressive journalists to cover the case, and the story was published all over the world. 

    • ragnar ness, of course some kurdish tribes or some from those tribes took part in those massacres, but were these tribes organised enough or capable to destroy a whole people systematically without a state apparatus?  CUP killers said to plot this destruction in an answer to armenians unwilligness to opğen an front against the russian from the caucassus.   its not a surprise what greedy people can do, have a look at the ‘koruculuk system’ where the kurdish villagers are recruited by the turkish state against their own people.  they are responsible for many attrocities.  but the main culprit in the genocide is the CUP leaders and the turkish state.  the diffence between the majority of the kurds and turks is that we accept that there was a genocide.  this people were there and now they arent, its a sad chapter in the history of humanity.
      peace. 

  1203. Ragnar, you frustrate me.  Are you writing to me or using a response to me to address many all at once?  Some of your comments do not apply to me at all.  You are being a careless reader.

    I never said Turks were not minorities (in the Balkans).  Here is what I said on October 26th:

    “Turks were not mere minorities in the modern understanding of the term.  They were conquerors and settlers that dominated and suppressed the indigenous communities.  They didn’t come in and blend and meld into a cohesive society.  They waged war and oppressed and divided and took advantage of the weak.  They governed with an uneven hand and were bent on spreading their empire as far as they could until successfully opposed.   What did they expect to happen when nationalistic aspirations became part of the zeitgeist?  Where was their ‘clever and tolerant’ governance then? ”

    Let’s try again.  What is your objection to this statement?  Have I not expressed clearly enough previously that I believe any massacre of people to be a tragedy?  I don’t excuse or condone the massacres of Turks in the Balkans.  But for the Turks to point to these massacres (outside of context), and claim “We were victims, too!”  without acknowledging the role of the Ottoman Sultanate’s oppressive policies as provocation for these massacres is very myopic.  Yes innocent Turks suffered!   Yes innocent Turks suffered!   Yes innocent Turks suffered!   But not before making countless other’s suffer.

    In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, can we get off this already?   Their suffering hurt them just as much as our suffering hurt us.   But who is denying their suffering?  Not the Bulgarians, nor the Armenians who had nothing to do with it!
    Yet they go out of their way to ignore and deny ours…while crying foul when we, their victims, refuse to bury our pain and disappear.

    You write:

    I will also try to write plainly. Of course Armenians are looking for something
    more than dialogue. I am very specifically talking about how we should go about
    influencing more Turks who are willing to listen. How will you do it?

    I am not opposed to dialogue.  I am opposed to gaming the system.  I am opposed to using dialogue as an excuse to delay justice.  I am opposed to pretending we don’t know what we know.  I am opposed to tolerating the evil inherent in denial of this truth. Don’t ask me to pretend otherwise.  Please forgive me, but I may vomit on your shoes.  

    I gladly converse with any doubter who says “show me why you believe what you believe because I have been told otherwise.”  But virulent Armenian haters won’t be moved by dialogue.   The scholars and leaders of Turkey know the truth, and they choose to allow false scholarship, archival destruction and blatant denial to foment ethnic hatred among their citizens.  Please…   This is where your humanitarian efforts should be applied.  Not toward scolding Armenians because their frustration is expressed in angry tones.  Your tolerance of ignorance on the part of Turks is hypocritical in the face of your intolerance for Armenian exasperation.

    It is time to stop preaching to Armenians about dialogue and start preaching to Turks about facing reality. 

    This dialogue between you and I is now 19 months long.  Do you doubt that I understand the function of dialogue?  In that time, I have read many critical and scolding comments made by you about Armenians.  Despite this, I remained committed to a mostly polite discussion.  What has this commitment to dialogue produced?   Very little openness, if any, on your part to alter your denigrating and judgmental view of Armenians.   Now you expect me to believe I should carry out a similar exchange with those who have an emotional investment in not believing the truth about the genocide, and expect that “polite talk” will shift their point of view.  Who has this kind of time to waste when 96 years have already gone by.  You are not in a place to judge.   You have not lost your home or your right to your heritage.  Nor has your history been erased.

    Yet if a Turk was sincerely open to the idea that they don’t know all the facts…I would put the coffee on, gather my friends and family, and welcome them to my table.

  1204. Ragnar said:

    There is a doubt about the proof of this collaboration between the CUP and some asiretler, but if honest people today will say it,based on what they heard from their grand parents,  this may be a very good proof

    Oh really Ragnar?  So all the eye witnesses (ARMENIAN AND NON ARMENIAN), all the data written by ARMENIAN AND NONARMENIAN is not enough foryou to say yes there was a collaboration between CUP and everyone else who had part in this bloodshed???? you want honest people to come out and SPECIFICALLY SAY this for you not to have doubt??? WOW.. talk bout having an ego of an elephant… and considering yourself to be the master of all historians.. you have to get the word right off the horses’  mouth for you to say.. Oh yeah.. it happaned… i am getting really annoyed by your superiority.. fake that is…

    Gayane  

  1205. Firat B.. i would not send anything TO Ragnar… that is just my advice to you.. we don’t know his intentions her and i would not trust his motives.. we have yet to discover what he really wants from us and frm all this…

    But that is just my opinion.. it is your call…

    Gayane  

  1206. Ragnar—- whatever you type will never be in plain statements.. there is always something hidden in your statements….

    Here is a revelation for your SIR.. you said: 

    will also try to write plainly. Of course Armenians are looking for something
    more than dialogue. I am very specifically talking about how we should go about
    influencing more Turks who are willing to listen. How will you do it?

    Those Turks who are willing to listen ALREADY know what happened and have heard us.. i mean even a baby can get what occured because of so much information and proof out there.. … The smart and honest Turks don’t need a dialogue to figure out or come to terms with what happened… they are reaching out to those who can provide such support and they get it…we have seen some within our pages and i am sure it happens outside of these pages…. however, i have not seen more than maybe handful of those smart Turks on our sites.. but we all experienced SLEW OF nationalists and genocidal denialists ALL OVER here and on Turkish sites… now you can take your dialogue and continue your humantiarian work with them.. why are you here poking our sides with your penship/comments?

    Gayane

  1207. Ragnar said:

     The idea that Turks were bad from the start – to put
    it in a somewhat rhetorical way – is an idea that actually functions to delay
    justice. I tried to point to mistaken ideas that do not serve the Armenian
    cause

    Ok.. is it me or Ragnar is pushing his horse carriage without reading all comments.. because I remember specifically stating that we never said ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL TURKSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS are bad.. they may have come from a BADDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD seeds but we never labeled everyone under the same umbrella.. LIKE TURKS DO.. please visit TUrkish sites or even ours and you can see it in plain view.. Ragnar.. are you delibertely ignoring such comments?? WHY do you feel you have to repeat the same thing about Armenians hating ALLL TURKS.. maybe .. could be that the MAJORITY are as crazy in their thinking as Monastras, Necati, Robert, Murat, and others in this peanut gallery .. and it is unfortunate that majority seems to have the same mentality..we have seen more haters on our sites/Turkish sites and not enough smart, intelligent and understanding  Turks… i want them to come out.. please come out…

    and no Ragnar– this matter that you so LOVINGLY keep repeating for everyone to see does not cause the delay.. that is absurd…and you know it.. just admit that people like YOU delay the progress and not the fact you think all Turks are bad…

    Gayane   

  1208. AMENNNNNNNNNNNN TO THAT Boyajian jan.. AMEN!!!!!

    I was waiting for you to finally express what Ragnar has been doing so far.. FRUSTRATE the hell out of everyone… I have lost patience with him a year ago .. and after reading his comments to you, my blood pressure kept going up and up but i kept it cool.. trust me you are nto the only one frustrated by his ignorant and sometimes stupid comments… we allllllllllllll share your pain.. but we are too civilized to maintain a decent conversation (EVEN WITH occassional comments with angry tone)…..

    Where did this dialogue lead us… this is the perfect question Boyajian jan…the  perfect question… if we can’t get someone who is nto emptionally connected to this issue stir away from his bias, I can only imagine trying to knock some sense into denialists .. notorious genocidal denialists who DO have emotional connection……..

    Ragnar is spending way too much time in the wrong on-line discussions.. Ragnar should be spending his time and energy on his friends on Turkish sites…where his services are most needed….

    Gayane          

  1209. gayane

    the Armenians at large, those who survived, of course witnessed what had happened to them personally, but they did not witness the decisions of the CUP. They had to INFER  something about the decision of the CUP, for instance that it was not only a policy of relocation but of extermination. I gave a lot of arguments to Monastras that point in the direction of a fact of intent of extermination, but there are also facts that point in the other direction, that it was a case of a badly administered deportation in a situation of war and in a hostile environment of Muslims who wanted to rob and kill Armenians. And possbily it is like Gerlach says that all groups plundered and killed the Armenians, but  there was no central decision. The responsibility of the ittihadists is very clear, and also the responsibility of today’s Turks to go into this and apologize. But unless Armenians are willing 1) to argue, and 2) unless they engage in a fact oriented discussion with Turks who want to go into this, 3) acknowledging the good intentions of the opponent, even if they disagree in som matters, also 4) answering their questions, I dont see much prospects for Armenians influencing Turkish liberal opinion. But then of course Boyajian is right when she says that I should go and discuss with Turks, which I will do – And you must not say that those who are interested in listening ALREADY  know what happened. It is important that you say it, because I can see the reasons for holding such a point, and I believe it is common in many diagreements: the idea that “the nice people necessarily agree with us… But believe me me there are many shades of opinions, for instance 1) those who say that there was no intention to exterminate but that  the authorities neglected the care of Armenians and that one must admit this, and apologize 2) those who hold that they neglected to punish the wrongdoers, which is what Talat Pasha himself admits, but that there was no intention to exterminate, or 3) that Armneians were robbed and a grewatr injustice was done, but that there was no consistent policy of extermination, or other points. It is a fatal misunderstanding to believe that the “nice” Turks already agree with you. Many distinctions may be important to them and unless you discuss with them you cannot influence them. It is as if you are content to posess the truth and do not care to argue with the doubters. This of course unfortunatelty is the attitude of many Armenians, and it is a great liability for the Armenian cause. Regarding you, Firat, you may ask anybody about my intentions and my record as a human rights defender. My point now is not for you to send me anything personally, but to publicise the names of the tribes and villages that allegedly participated in the massacre of Armenians, AFTER HAVING ASKED THEM FIRST. The truth of the role of the CUP is out there, among Kurds, who know what happened because they heard it from their grandparents. They must start by asking the descendants of those who committed the crimes to step forward. I admit this is difficult, there is a loyalty between Kurds.  They may admit on a general plane, as you do, Firat, that “we slaughtered the Armenians”.  But to ask the descendants who profited from the pillage of Armenians is another thing. It is great that you do this, Firat, because you promote justice, but there are a number of questions that are not answered: did they do it in collusion with the CUP center, as Monastras says, or did they do it on their own? Did they do it together with local CUP people who often were violently anti-Armenian, as Hilmar Kaiser shows in his article on the situation in Libanon in 1915?   Gayane, you think the truth is plain to see dor anybody who openes his eyes, but believe me, the situation is more complex like that. Nice Turks are misinformed, to make them go honestly into the question is a question of a process. And if they decide not to listen, they will never change, even if they are nice people who believe in democracy and human rights. They will go on talking about the “exaggerations of the Armenians”.    

  1210. gayane
    November 2, 2011 | PermalinkReply

    Ragnar- i am sorry to dissapoint you but we all had our posts lost one time or another.. but it does not mean AW intentionally attacks Turkish commentators and censor their posts.

    Gayane, Your nose must be getting bigger 

  1211. I write a petition
    To stop hurting our feelings…on this site
    Some writers they don’t feel
    Fell-less…Human-less…Heart-less 
    Are there more clear words to say…!

    They want to slay more our genocided tongues…
    To obey Seljuk Laws 
    Islamic Shareea Is Fair 
    I repeat Seljuk Law
    Every Muslim Knows…

    It was not enough what Seljuks did before…
    Now new scavengers are worse
    instead apologizing… are hurting us more

    Do such people exist in Internet century…! 
    Where everywhere you can write… you can get fair re-sponce

    Except from the scavengers and their gangs
    Who know… How to distribute poisons through their pens
    Provoking honest Armenians
    To answer them and spending a time explaining
    What Turks did for Us…
    Enough is Enough

    Please Stop…every Armenian like others…To write 
    Their Heart cells is getting sick
    Isn’t 1,317.. e-mails not enough
    To teach even the cows…
    Cows who provide milk for our children to thrive… 

    We can no longer tolerate their insulting letters 
    To our innocent uncanned flesh in Der-Zor land
    Their skulls are still burning under the sun-rays…

    Only allow FIRAT B to write…from their land
    Who has true experience after our genocide…
    To tell us new things which we never heard before… 

    I said Stop…I mean Stop…
    And others should write the same…
    Wring and teaching enemies is not a Fun…
    They slayed us by their scimitars
    Now they want to slay us by their pen
    Dipped in red ink…which was our stagnated blood… 

  1212. Murat,       you chose to run away again with the tail between your legs? After bundling out from the ‘dialogue’ on the Western Armenian population and on who and what actions could possibly bring destruction on over 2 mln people, you invited us all to this century where we live. I RSVP-ed to your invitation showing what disgusting things Turkey does against Armenia in the century where we live. You ran away again? If you knew how stunning is the similitude between such ‘hit-and-run’ behavior of yours and the hit-and-run tactics of your Turkish chettes who in hordes attacked the emaciated Armenian women and children, killing most of them, and then running away.
     
    I hope professor naess is witnessing how a Turk handles the ‘dialogue’ that he so obstinately calls upon Armenians—and, strangely enough, upon Armenians only—to have on things that are already known to the world and to the Turkish ruling elites, as well.

  1213. gor

    I agree with you that there so far has been no Turk here who really has tried consistently to stick to the dialogue principle with perseverence. However I think Gayane dismissed Monastras’ complaint about censorship in a too facile way. But then there are not so many dialogue maniacs here apart from….. 

  1214. Firat 

    Thanks for your information…I would like to know more about
    “Koruculuk System”…If you can elaborate…
    I heard once from an Egyptian Lady from Ssaeed Egypt with double SS…Who spoke the same thing…She said that Ottomans use to make trouble between brothers and relatives about their lands…When they end in the court …They use to confiscate the land from them…
    Is this the same system that you mentioned…and what does it mean…Koruculuk…I know some Turkish but not like you…
    Also she told me..another story that in Ssaeed Egypt…Where they have very huge doors
    If anyone behaved bad against the Ottomans, they use to kill the men and hang them on the door, no one should touch the dead body till their bones fell down after skin gets dry…

    Egyptians of Ssaeed are very simple people …they believe any thing said to them…there are endless jokes about them…because of their simplicity…

    SP  

     

  1215. Ragnar- i don’t see any connection with the comment of me dismissing Monastras’ complaint about censorship.. what the hell is that??? stop MAKING EXCUSES FOR THEM DENIALISTS please. For God’s sake man…

  1216. Monastras Xhanum: sorry for the delay… it was not an easy task to locate the perfect example for you.. and this is not to prove you are liar but to show how you denialists do everything to stir away from the truth..

    if you lie about something this small, we can imagine what you do and say about the Armenian Genocide.. actually.. we do not imagine.. we KNOW.. every one of you liars have been caught red handed but yet without a shame you come back for more embarassment.. talk about low self esteem…

    Below is an example and it is in this very own thread.. if you  have the brain capacity or the capability, you may and locate it yourself..  
      . 
      gayane
    September 18, 2011 | Permalink| Reply

    I am not sure why my post to Ragnar in regards to my name did not post but I am going to try again…
    Ragnar — you addressed me in your Sept 17th post that I am hiding… hmmmm.. that was rather odd…….you ATTEMPTED to pull something smart by adding -ian after Gayane which was not  funny nor appreciated because  not only it did not make sense (-ian after a name????) but YOU having no knowledge about  Armenians and Armenian history had NO RIGHT to such post… … have you seen me change my name nor my avatar as long as you have barked at me on these pages  UNLIKE some denalists who use and create several/different names on our pages??/ HAVE YOU????? if the answer is NO which I know it is, then you just created YET ANOTHER episode how much you despise those who expose you of a lie and desire of creating choas and confusion… So you better watch it sir before you open your ignorant mouth and disrespect my name in such stupid manner…

    Guess it was your nose that has been growing for many many years… i am surprised you even allowed to walk amongst the normal people with such a long lying nose…

    have a nice day Mrs/Mz/Ms/whatever Liar…

    Gayane    

  1217.  
    Boyajian
    Yes lets try again. Your post of oct 26
    truly runs like the following:

     “Turks
    were not mere minorities in the modern understanding of the term. They were
    conquerors and settlers that dominated and suppressed the indigenous
    communities. They didn’t come in and blend and meld into a cohesive society.
    They waged war and oppressed and divided and took advantage of the weak. They
    governed with an uneven hand and were bent on spreading their empire as far as
    they could until successfully opposed. What did they expect to happen when
    nationalistic aspirations became part of the zeitgeist? Where was their ‘clever
    and tolerant’ governance then? ”

    I assumed
    this was part of an ongoing discussion between me and gor, in which I held 1) that
    the Turkish mortality can not be explained as just collateral damage or
    civilian casualties accompanying the war effort. These were ATROCITIES committed with the intent to drive the Turkish population out, kill a large number of them, and destroy their communities. 2) It is very difficult not to conclude that the destruction of turkish Bulgarian
    communities were instances of genocide according to the reasoning of the
    ICTJ (let alone the reasoning of the ICTY regarding the killing of muslims in
    srebrenitsa which in the verdict was said to be an instance of genocide. But
    the Srebrenitsa is just a fraction of the mortality of  1877–78.)   
     I really am surprised that we seem to disagree
    about this. The facts and the logic speak for themselves.
    That this was the theme is also evident from gor’s post of 28.10.
    Gor 28.10
    the wartime atrocities you’re talking about were not attempts to destroy whole groups by
    killing members with the aim of destroying whole communities in part or in
    whole. Because they were not such attempts but just wartime atrocities involving
    the civilian population, they were not legally or internationally recognized as
    attempts to destroy an ethnic, religious and national group.
    unquote
    Then I
    answer
    Me 30.10.11
    I refer you
    to the book “Death and Exile” by McCarthy. It is widely cited, at the latest by
    Zurcher in his “the Unionist legacy”, and also by authors in the
    Naimark/Gocek/Suny book. Particularly the large Turkish communities in northern
    bulgaria were almost completely destroyed. Today there are only Turkish
    communities of any size in the Southern part of Bulgaria. So you are completely
    off the mark. these were not unfortunate civilian casualties during a war.
    unquote
    Gor answers in a post from oct. 30 in which he does not comment on the destruction of the
    Turkish cimmunities in Northern Bulgaria. He only criticizes MCarthy for other
    points, citing Bloxham. But this deals with McCarthy’s debate on 1915, not his
    work on the ethnic cleansing of Muslims. So this answer is irrelevant to my
    point.
    You wrote yesterday:
     
    Ragnar, you frustrate me. Are you writing
    to me or using a response to me to address many all at once? Some of your
    comments do not apply to me at all. You are being a careless reader.
    I never said Turks were not minorities (in
    the Balkans). Here is what I said on October 26th:
    “Turks were not mere minorities in the
    modern understanding of the term. They were conquerors and settlers that
    dominated and suppressed the indigenous communities. They didn’t come in and
    blend and meld into a cohesive society. They waged war and oppressed and
    divided and took advantage of the weak. They governed with an uneven hand and
    were bent on spreading their empire as far as they could until successfully opposed.
    What did they expect to happen when nationalistic aspirations became part of
    the zeitgeist? Where was their ‘clever and tolerant’ governance then? ”

    Let’s try again. What is your objection to
    this statement? Have I not expressed clearly enough previously that I believe
    any massacre of people to be a tragedy? I don’t excuse or condone the massacres
    of Turks in the Balkans. But for the Turks to point to these massacres (outside
    of context), and claim “We were victims, too!” without acknowledging the role
    of the Ottoman Sultanate’s oppressive policies as provocation for these
    massacres is very myopic. Yes innocent Turks suffered! Yes innocent Turks
    suffered! Yes innocent Turks suffered! But not before making countless other’s
    suffer.
     Comment:
    Regarding the
    term minority, this is a minor thing. The main thing, according to our theme,or at least my point which gor is objecting to, is whether the Turks were “minorities” or “not merely minorities”. This is not so important. The words “not merely minorities” relate to the historical facts.
    The Turkish armies and sultans  were conquerors. But Civilian Turks just
    came in to settle and earn a living, much in the same way as Norwegians and
    Armenians came to the US for a better life after the genocide of and ethnic
    cleansing of the  indigenous population. Should we say that if for some reason the descendants of these, US citizens of Norwegian and Armenian extraction were driven out and some 20% of them died, that this is justifiable?
    It is the reasoning about civilian populations that according to the laws of war must be
    spared as much as possible which is my concern. If you are talking about
    historical facts (“they” were conqurrors, by which term you must mean the armies that
    conquered the area 500 years erlier), THIS IS NOT THE THEME I AM ADRESSING.
    When you say that you agreed that innocent Turks suffered, we agree. But maybe we do not
    agree on what is the theme or put a different emphasis on the facts. Or maybe gor and you want to say that the important theme simply is that “turks” as such were guilty because conquerors.  I talk about human rights and the concept of genocide, you talk about historical facts AS IF THEY
    WERE RELEVANT FOR THE QUESTION OF HUMAN RIGHT AND THE PRECISE NATURE OF THE
    CRIME COMMITTED. Then gor also says that “these things happen” exactly in the way many Turks say about the Armenian fate in 1915 that these things happen.

    The ordinary Bulgarian and turkish peasants were not enemies, and the ordinary Turkish peasant were not exploiting the Bulgarian peasants. They were simply neighbours and had their disagreements. See the description of Tetsuya Sahara, a japanese historian working in Bulgaria who has written on the Batak incident or the “Bulgarian horrors” and describes how these incidents started with Bulgarian attacks on Turkish civilians in the name of national liberation, and how the news reached England in a totally distorted form. So my concern is the situation of civilians, in Bulgaria or in Anatolia  
    Lastly, I
    hope that it is clear now that I address exactly your words. I am not talking
    to anybody else. That many others are reading this is another matter.

  1218. boyajian

    again a mistake crept into my text:
    The main thing, according to our theme,or at least my point which gor is objecting to, is whether the Turks were “minorities” or “not merely minorities”. This is not so important.

    I wanted to say “is NOT whether Turks were “minoroties”.

    My point is that you by your remark on the historical facts continue a theme which is not the one I am adressing, but I experience that you and gor are very reluctant to adress it. but of course when you say that you agree that targeting of civilian population anyhow is wrong, we are making some progress. But I feel you still want to argue that the loss of Turkish life in 1877-78 was not a result of a calculated attempt at destroying Turkish communities. Correct me if I am wrong      
      

  1219. An Arabic proverb says,

    “Inn lam testehi…fasnaa ma sheeit”

    Find translater to tell you what does it mean…

    It clearly apples on some intruders on this site…
    SP 

  1220. Gayane

    I believe I never put -ian after your name! Where did I do it? If I did it must have been a misspelling. 

  1221. “Particularly the large Turkish communities in northern
    bulgaria were almost completely destroyed. Today there are only Turkish
    communities of any size in the Southern part of Bulgaria.”
    Where are the Armenian communities in the Armenian Highland.Name me one.
     

  1222. sylvia,
    let me explain what “koruculuk system” is:

    koru means grove,
    korucu means woodsman,

    koruculuk has been a system left from ottomans.they used to live in forests to prevent fires.pepole fears from them because they have axes and ugly .

    today, they dont use axes but saw with gasoline motor.sometimes they cut peoples around by mistake instead of woods.

    generally they are not so bad…

  1223. “But I feel you still want to argue that the loss of Turkish life in 1877-78 was not a result of a calculated attempt at destroying Turkish communities. Correct me if I am wrong.”     Again, ragnar naess?  Just a few comments ago you promised to be the master of your word and leave the theme. Boyajian made it clear that any massacre in human history is deplorable. But you again manipulate this issue into juxtaposing it to a “calculated attempt at destroying Turkish communities” without regard for the fact that Turks earlier attempted to destroy Bulgarian communities and that Turks were officially at war during which the massacres took place. As such, it wasn’t by definition a ‘calculated’ attempt, because it was somewhat predetermined by:
    (1) retaliation for slaughtered Bulgarian natives, and
    (2) atrocities, unfortunate as they were, against the civilians representing a belligerent party that happen during any war.
    This is not a ‘calculated’ destruction, because at its core it had prerequisites that led to it. I demonstrated you more than once that such prerequisites never existed during the genocidal extermination of the Armenians. Therefore, the extermination of Armenians was a calculated effort, an effort aimded at emptying by means of physical destruction the vast lands from a particular ethnic, national, racial, and religious group.

  1224. gor

    you and I have finished the theme but Boyajian had a ceomment and asked me a question and felt I should answer it.

    vTiger

    again I feel that many have a problem with sticking to a fixed theme. The theme, was crimes against Turks in Bulgaria 1877-78. As I have said several times, the catastrophy befelling the Armenians was much bigger than the other catastrophies. The mortality in percentage of the population was bigger, the almost complete emptying of Armenians from your ancestral territory is not matched by any other group, the destruction of national monuments does not have a parallell in the Balkans.     

  1225. necati
    I thought the noun “korucu” derived from the verb “korumak” – “to guard”. The korucu are mainly people, mainly kurds who are armed by the Turkish military to fight against the PKK. They are seen as traitors by nationalist – and I believe indeed the majority of – Kurds. Sometimes Kurds are pressured to join the Korucular (“the guardians”). Refusal to join the Korucu may lead to åproblems because those who refuse are suspected of collaboration with the PKK. So the village guard system is part of the conflict between Turks and Kurds.
     

  1226. no one here, certainly no Armenian poster,  is obligated to stick to the theme of alleged crimes against Turks in Bulgaria 1877-78. The theme, such as it is, was surreptitiously and maliciously introduced and slithered in by a Turkophile AG Denialist with the subtle agenda  to divert and commingle AG discussion with unrelated, pro-Turkish bloviation.

  1227. All the Armenians on this site
    Should not write any thing about Bulgarians 
    It is their problem to answer
    We feel we have our pain.. 
    They have their own pain…
    They can’t understand ours
    We can’t understand theirs
    If all the books we read…

    We speak from our real pain,
    Which our grandparents saw 
    We don’t write fiction 
    All are real stories
    Seen by their clear retinas…
    They passed away 
    But we are here to narrate 
    How it spoiled our childhood happiness…!

    SP

     

     

  1228. mr. ragnar,

    yes. you are right. i was just joking since aw is a theater with funny players.. i dont take aw as a serious and free debate site…

  1229. ‘.. i dont take aw as a serious and free debate site…’  then don’t visit AW. nobody is forcing you to come here: you can’t stay away.

    concentrate on  spewing your AG Denialist Anti-Armenian hatred in your own back yard. we don’t mind visiting and educating you there.  just like that brave patriotic Turk woman.

  1230. friends this necati fella is giving you false information and also taking the piss. Necati you are a coward and a stupid person who wastes his own and other peoples time…  koruculuk is not ”koru-culuk”  the correct interpretetion is tha it is a”village guardsmen system” where some kurds are coersed or bribed into accept weapon from the turkish state in order to use them against the guerillas. they are responsible for many attrocities.  they are similar to sultan  abdulhamid’s ‘hamidiye alayları’.
    and ragnar ness first of all i am not a historian and cant answer yopur many questions regarding the armenian genoside but i am a keen reader and i am intelligent enough to see the difference between an honest and impartial book and its writer and a book sole aim is to deny the truth(s) or make propaganda.  and theres no plot to hide the truth between the kurds nor is there a ‘loyalist’ pact to unexpose the kurdish pepetrators :)  my friend just relax a little and dont scare us away.  im not being paid to come and have discussions on this site, nor am i here to spread mischief.  i only saw this site by accident and i really feel for my fellow countrymen (armenians) who suffered by one or the other of their neighbours.  of course kurds must have taken part in these attrocities but you must also not forget that after the attocities there were still armenian communities in kurdish cities such as diyarbakır as opposed to turkish cities such as yozgat or adana.  my greatparents have not taken part in any attrocities coz theres no spoken history in my tribe regarding armenians.  but those great parents who took part still talks about it.  i rode in a taxi the other day and the taxi drivewr was talking about death and how some people were dying hard and suffering before passing away, he said that there was an old man in his village and this guy was said to have murdered tens of armenian men women and children.  therefore he was nick named ‘gavur bogan’ , means infidel strangler.  he was a cold blooded killler and ‘when he met his creator in his old days he didnt die nicely’.  he was making ‘all sorts of noises for many days’ and begging God to take his life.  i mean this sort of things are passed down the generations to generations in communities that took part in the attrocities.  please dont make generalisations.
    peace,
     

  1231. “As I have said several times, the catastrophe befalling the Armenians was much bigger than the other catastrophes.”      Not only was it bigger, but it was also different in essence, prerequisites, historical circumstances, deliberate premeditation, nationalistic goals and indescribable barbarity of the perpetrators, scope, magnitude, consequences, and, most importantly, subsequent legal definition of the catastrophe.

  1232. Firat B.. If i see you, i am going to kiss your forehead … Thank you from the bottom of my heart..It gives me hope and pleasure to know we have people like you out there. maybe in small numbers but God has put you on this earth for a reason and i feel people like you will multiply.. and will crash the nonsense and sorry people like necati, monastras, murat, Robert the Turk, John the turk and Ragnars of the world..

    Thank you…. 

  1233. Ok here is the thing my friends… because we have proven that Ragnar knowns nothing about what civilans losses and real Genocide are, and there are plenty of evidence to show Ragnar is just blowing hot air.. in Armenian.. YUGHA VARUM arten… we should just not continue to entertain this man.. i understand Ragnar is on a mission and we are definintely helping with his mission but enough of his stupid and non-related comments…. 

    As Avery said…no one EVER brought up Bulgarian Turks  except Ragnar with his sly and sneaky way slithering this topic into our theme…   

  1234. Ragnar,
    “As I have said several times, the catastrophy befelling the Armenians was much bigger than the other catastrophies. The mortality in percentage of the population was bigger, the almost complete emptying of Armenians from your ancestral territory is not matched by any other group, the destruction of national monuments does not have a parallell in the Balkans.”
    A PLANNED ETHNIC CLEANSING & GENOCIDE.NO EXCUSES/REASONS JUSTIFY THESE HORRIBLE ATROCITIES.THOUSANDS OF YEARS’ ANCESTRAL HOME IS EMPTIED WITHIN A PERIOD OF 3-4 YEARS BY BUTCHERY & MURDER.
     

  1235. Monastras.. i have a feeling you are dealing with your longated nose right about now but i hope you wno’t show your lying nose of yours on these pages again… now that you were caught lying i hope you think twice before clicking “submit”… but then again.. who am I kidding? it is obvious you people don’t think…it is a shame…

  1236. Firat

    you have not commented on the case of the descendants of those Kurds who massacred Armenians.Of course, many people are just convinced that no more proofs are needed  that the CUP decided to exterminate the Armenians. If so, it suffices to repeat the “truth”, or what? If we believe that we must go on giving reasons for this then the potential testimony of descendants of these Kurds is very important. But I dont know what you think? 

  1237. firat

    yes, now I see your answer. I believe this is important, but of course it is also important if “gavur bogan” would say “yes, they told me that people from the CUP came and said that we should kill the Armenians   and in exchange we could take their money and valuables and their women and children, and you will never get into trouble because this is the policy of Talat Pasha”. Or maybe they would say “we dont know”, or possibly they would say “no, they did it on their own and some of them were even punished by the vali or by the army”. All these types of cases and possibilities are mentioned in the historians’ literature. And it is important to raise these questions in the newspapers of Turkey, with new arguments, so that honest people understand that this is not only a case of some people, Armenians, Europeans and “bad Turks” who constantly repeat the same things.  Honest Turks must understand that this is a serious question relating to their  “namus”- their honour, and that they must go into the question honestly.  

  1238. brave and coward…

    what is your qriteria ? it is so easy to name someone as coward behind pc. We call such people “keyboard hero” .

    let me ask you same question to you which is never answered here :

    agri diyarbakir van etc belong to kurts or to armenians.?

    i am afraid you kurts will exterminate them completely this time in case we turks are out of region . it is experienced in the past once.

    so turks are a kind of protecters of hays .they should be grateful for this and for “tehcir ” .

    a fresh news: father of a pkk terrorist recently killed by security forces said that his child was too young and cheated by pkk.he also put turkish flag on kids tomb and home.

    he also said: we are one nation with same flag, same army. are you suprised to hear this?. Will you kill him ?
    pkk loosing blood fast. your father barzani left you too .soon his peshmerges will meet pkk terrorist on iraq mountains and kill one by one.

    about van earthquake you just made black propaganda. you are an ingratitude .

    turkish people did their best to help those suffered from earthquake. In only a few hours my noble people from all over turkey collected more than 300 millon usd for van.Aids are still flowing to van. I will not say more about this.

    You know what is happening? Turks are sending to the east teachers, doctors, money, engineers, infrastructure, everything and what they get back? Terror, betray, honor killings,pedophile, ensest, vandalism, drug traffic,…

    I live in ankara sincan gop mahallesi, and you? Would you like to meet me?

    Necati Genis

  1239. VTiger

    If Armenians had been  good boys. They were  going to stay here. It appears that it is now the turn of the PKK supporter Kurds.They think they are great just like Armenians thought the same. Either Kurds will stand up against PKK or we will pick up the PKK supporters (Of course not the great Kurds) and deport them to the Kurdish Empire. Time is running out and all the options have been exhausted. So you can cry together with Armenians . I doubt Kurds are lucky enough to chant from California after the deportation

  1240. John the Turk, what does it mean for Armenians to be “a good boy.”  Do you mean, that if we had just accepted our second class status with gratitude and acknowledged that Turks are the ‘superior people,’ and waved the Turkish flag, and let our children lose their language and culture, and pretended that usurpers have more rights than those who are indigenous, and stayed quiet as our history and culture was claimed by Turks, than we would still be allowed to wipe the shoes of the likes of you?

    You are one scary, crazy dude. 

  1241. John the turk
    So you are going to commit a second ethnic cleansing & Genocide but this time against fellow muslims?Common sense in case you have one should clearly show you that 20-25 million Kurds in Turkey cannot go on eternally living as 2nd class citizens & with no independence.
    “Either Kurds will stand up against PKK or we will pick up the PKK supporters (Of course not the great Kurds) and deport them to the Kurdish Empire”
    Your prisons won’t be enough to accomodate 20-25 million people nor your army will be able to ethnically cleanse them…
    If the mighty Turkish army could not eliminate the PKK until today then Turkey’s future is division & have no doubt about that.

    • Math clearly isn’t your best subject. There are only 10-15 million Kurds in Turkey and a majority of them are not separatist. For the millionth time, PKK is only about 10,000 strong. (ten thousand, since you have a hard time with math) Most of them are in Iraq anyway. If Turkey wanted to get rid of the PKK by force, they could have done that a long time ago. They are trying to spare civilian casualties. You claim that Turkey’s future is division. That is hilarious. You do realize that Kurds are not the only ethnicity in the south east? There are millions of Turks and Azeri’s also. How are 10,000 PKK going to divide a nation of 80,000,0000. Oh and also, you better believe that the 5 million strong Turkish diaspora will be on the first flight to the south east in any event.

    • Oh eren.. we have no doubt.. all you nationalists are good at is to destroy, kill and take by force… and are you saying your 5 million strong Turkish diaspora is going to be the first flight to the south east in any event going to REALLY happen? if they are soooooooooooo proud of their country’s strong ecomonic, socioeconomic, cultural, and overal living in Turkey, why the hell are they 5 million Turkish diaspora??? hmmmmmm.. i wonder.. lets do that math here shall we EREN before you accuse of someone else for not able to do math… if your so called Turkish diaspora left your lovely and prosperous country for no reason, i would think they will not budge for anything else to come back for any event.. they don’t even know who they TRULY are let alone come back to protect something they don’t even understand…

  1242. necati,
    “let me ask you same question to you which is never answered here :
    agri diyarbakir van etc belong to kurts or to armenians.?”
    Very good question & I’m surprised honestly that you are capable of thinking rationally.To start with there is no agri but Ararat & if you want to change this sacred mountain’s name then you have to start with the Bible & Quran where it is clearly mentioned.
    Kurds know very well what belongs to whom & when the time comes it will be dealt with & hopefully in a civilised & peaceful manner taking into consideration reality.
    Does Palestine belong to Israelis or Palestinians?

  1243. From Wikipedia…

    The Mountains of Ararat (Biblical Hebrew הָרֵי אֲרָרָט, Tiberian hārēy ǍrārāṭSeptuagint: τὰ ὄρη τὰ Ἀραράτ) is the place named in the Book of Genesis where Noah’s Ark came to rest after the great flood (Genesis 8:4).
    In Syrian tradition, as well as in Quranic tradition, the specific summit of the “Mountains of Ararat” where Noah’s ark landed is identified as Mount Judi in what is today Nakhchivan or northwestern Iran. In the Armenian tradition and Western Christianity, based on Jerome‘s reading of Josephus, the mountain became associated with Mount Masis (now known as Mount Ararat) the highest peak of the Armenian Highland, located in present day Turkey. During the Middle Ages, this tradition has eclipsed the earlier association with Mount Judi even in Eastern Christianity, and the Mount Judi tradition is now mostly confined to theIslamic view of Noah.
    The “Mountains of Ararat” in Genesis clearly refer to a general region, not a specific mountain. Biblical Ararat corresponds to Assyrian Urartu (and Persian Arminya) the name of the kingdom which at the time controlled the Lake Van region, which in later centuries, beginning with Herodotus, came to be known as Armenia.

    Can you find word Agri …If you find… I will agree
    Learn from it …and you can write to them if you have prove …and they will answer you…
    and they will change

    SP

  1244. John the Turk

    luckily i have known Turkish people for 30 years and more, I have many friends but I have never heard anybody talk like you do. Well, some have, to be honest…. but these are the people that the majority in the family or the majority in the mahalle or in the village do not listen to…..give me the names of your family and I will call them and ask them to ask you about this…… The majority of Turks have a more realistic attitude about the Armenian and Kurdish matters than you have, from your words. But then you maybe are not serious, you are joking like  Necati are. Luckily I have sensible turkish friends who may disagree with me, but I can discuss with them.  but with your comments you play right into the hands of the enemies of Turkey

  1245. gayane thank you for understanding my true peronality and honesty.  you are a lovely person too.  and mr/mrs ragnar ness i dont think the armenian cause is about proving who is the descendants of the murderer kurds and who benefited from it.  what do you want me to say?  that my grandfather was a murderer and he got rich from it and i am now spending that money. and there are 5 million more kurds in the same position and i will leak their names, ok?  what now?  is the armenian question solved?  so Turkey needen’t accept and apologise for the genoside andpay compensations to the descendants, nor the turkish banks and companies that have benefited from the poor armenians’demise.  please if you are doing it to me because im the only kurd here then its ok.  i will take the bashing :)
    necati first of all i aint scared of you.  i am a kurd from sheikh beseini tribe and if you are from ankara you will know that a certain godfather called kurd ahmet is from my tribe and you will know who we are.  what will you do if i meet you?  call the police?  you are an informer and a bigot.  and also ignorant, i’m not a keyboard hero, nor a hero.  but believe me i can defend myself because im a keen boxer and unlike you i have the heart :)  but i would not meet a person like you because you are untreatably stupid.  what’s that cheated pkk member story  about?  the guy had joined the guerillas from the university and who is a child?  and could his father have been saying that because his other son is a police officer and he wouldnt like him to be an ex-police officer.  yes i too read the papers.  i am not a pkk member and i think that party was created by the turkish intelligence and the leader of it is a coward whose collobration with the turkish army cause kurdish guerillas to lose their lives. 
    ragnar ness i told you about that story about gavur bogan because the story was unique because it was told by a turk from  ‘gavur bogan’s village and it means at least some people knew what their countryman did to their fellow countrymen was a gross and injust act and that at least at that level there was no denial..and people believed that god had made him suffer in his last hours and that they were acknowledging the crime by telling us about the divine punishment.  of course there are millions of people like necati in turkey and they would do the same again if the ”need” was there.  but the world is not in  1915 and kurds are not 2 million.  the biggest kurdish city is istanbul and even in your ankara’s villages there are 100s of kurdish villages who still speak kurdish.  you failed to assimilate them.  please come with clear couterpoints not silly blurbs.  and let me answer your trick question agri and van were armenian cities and now kurdish but never were and never will be turkish.  if you want to see how the kurds will run a free kurdistan than lift your ass of that chair and visit south kurdistan and see how the kurds treat other peoples and minorities (even the turcomans who were saddams main agent and informer source).  and im apologising to all the others for the tone of my comment.
    peace to you all, and a little brain to necati.
     

  1246. Ragnar,

    the phrase “enemies of Turkey” is much used by Grey Wolves and deep state Generals etc. Whom do you mean and why doyou use fascist anti Armenian, anti Greek and antiliberal code words?

  1247. ragnarr ness you are right about the turkish people.  sometimes i give them right because they know not better.  they are brain washed by their fascistic state and all these truths that are being told are all new to them.  for 80 years they were told that there are no kurds and that it was actually the armenians who had killed the poor turkish villagers in 1918.  its like finding out that the man you have been calling father was not your real father when you are in your 60s :)  what would that to your psyche?? the turks hear these truths and some go on denial and some get agressive.  of course no people are totally bad or good.  i was in 1 of antalya’s towns the other day and the turkish nationalists had organised a demonstartion with turkish flags in protest to killing of 24 soldiers by pkk.  Half of the shops had flags on their windows and the other half hadnt.  and guess how many had taken part in the demonstartion?  around 5-6 hundreds and half of that were school children who were given free hours from classes to take part.  the town has 40.000 inhabitants and the municipality had announced the demonstarion and had asked people to take part.  so dont go around and think that whole of turkey thinks like necati and john the turk, robert etc.
    and necati if in 1915 the armenians had nearly exterminated the turks then i would be writing this in a turkish site remonstrating the killing armenians.  im not anti turkish, its just that i am a human being who knows the difference between the right and wrong. 

  1248. Gayane

    You fortunately have been caught red handed. You will make sure that I prove this  most probably tomorrow as I need to sit down and gather evidences against you. What are you going to do if I can prove this????

  1249. John the turk,

    What a disgusting paragraph, from start to finish, dripping with a sick sense of Turkish superiority, racism, and intolerance.  I have to agree with firat and ragnar on this. Your statements are so extreme, it is hard to imagine that all Turks think like you. I have Turkish friends, too, and I have to say that you are a disgrace to all of them

    What do you mean by being”good boys?” Obey Turks? Are Turks being “good boys” and how? Or you don’t have to be? It’s only non-Turks who should be “good boys” not to inconvenience Turkish masters in any way. 

     
    If Turks were good boys, they would respect other peoples’ rights and try to live with them in peace. If Turks are good boys, they should clean themselves of their shameful past by facing the facts as they are and taking responsibility for what they owe to others.

    And what do you mean by saying Kurds won’t be lucky enough to chant from California? Why not?

    Ragnar is right. This goes right into the hands of Turkey’s enemies. Thank you. 

  1250. Firat

    Do you wish to have a free Kurdistan in the south eastern Turkey? If you do and if the free Kurdistan is created  with the borders and police forces and everything else, do you expect to be allowed to stay in where you live and work? Or are you ready to pack and leave for sirnak or Diyarbakir? Or do you think that Istanbul is the biggest Kurdish city and millions of Kurdish people live everywhere therefore the government can not send them to the newly accepted Kurdish part?

    • john the Turk, i think istanbul is the biggest kurdish city at the moment and kurdish population and presence there isnt a recent thing. as far as the 16 century, there has been a kurdish diaspora in istanbul and we have as much claim to istanbul as the turks. what makes istanbul, a greek, then ottoman city, a turkish city? so you think 6-7 million kurds will just let go of istanbul? keep dreaming about it. istanbul belongs to the greeks, armenians, jews, levantens (italians), kurds and turks. not just to the turks. world changes faster than we could imagine. who could dream about todays middle east in the 80s and 90s???so anything is possible.

  1251. firat
    YOU WRITE:i dont think the armenian cause is about proving who is the descendants of the murderer kurds and who benefited from it.  what do you want me to say?  that my grandfather was a murderer and he got rich from it and i am now spending that money. and there are 5 million more kurds in the same position and i will leak their names, ok?  what now?  is the armenian question solved?  so Turkey needen’t accept and apologise for the genoside andpay compensations to the descendants, nor the turkish banks and companies that have benefited from the poor armenians’demise.  please if you are doing it to me because im the only kurd here then its ok.  i will take the bashing
      ANSWER: I am surprised because you said that “Ermenileri kesmisiz” – we killed the Armenians. From what I know some Kurds participated in the killing and some not. Needless to say those who participated were a small minority. Your grandparents arent responsible for what other Kurds did.
    And as I say the point is the role of the CUP. To give you one example: close to Malatya there is a tribe which has been living in these areas for several hundred years. When Armenians were sent across the mountains to the Adiyaman area, they were attacked, plundered and  killed by some Kurds from this tribe. Some of them, not all of them. This is fairly well documented. But whether they acted on their own or not, is not so well documented. But the local people certainly know. I have turkish friends who say that people in Malatya today are discussing this. I would like to say to the Turkish government that if you really are interested in this, try to find out by asking local people. If you know about crimes committed by some of the ancestors of people in the same tribe, why not step forward and tell this? But then the Turkish government will have to say that this is important, that people should tell, and that the government will protect those who tell about it. This is usual procedure if you want witnesses for a crime. That it is important to map out the collaboration between the CUP and some of the Kurds, if there was such a collaboration. In Norway we are now investigating crimes and mistreatment that was done 60-70 years ago. Of course this is not nice to hear for the descendants of those who committed this, but if you dont do it, where is the justice? – – There are historians who have started this already in Turkey. for instance they document that many of the people who were involved in the politics against the Armenians enriched themselves. It is fairly well documented that the major part of the Armenian assets went into the treasury to finance the war effort. So my point is not to to put the blame on the Kurds, but to find out about the role of the CUP, and document this to the world. And if the Turkish government weill never ask such questions, they should be asked about it. This is part of human rights work, to ask about  historical atrocities. But of course some people will be hurt and will be angry. How can you avoid it? And this is not to bash you personally, not at all!!
     

  1252. Necati— i think you got it all wrong.. i believe you are the coward… YOU… so stop your craziness and stupid comments… youa re not amusing.. we all know how genocidal you are.. how crude and ugly and disrespectful your words are… everytime i see your name, i remember your ugly words when you called all of us Gaymenians.. remember that? you rude individual….

  1253. Monastras.. here is the deal lady… ….

    I shared how AW does not post JUST the Turkish commentsas many of us also experienced such things… you took upon yourself and gave yourself the right to call me a liar by stating that my nose is getting longer because I lied…

    I then proved YOU wrong by providing an example where it clearly demonstrated that my post (from this own thread) did not post and I had to repost… proving YOU to be the biggest liar… 

    Go back to my november 5th comment and re-read it.. many times over…

    This case is sealed and closed.. if you have other stupid and nonsensical lies to share, go ahead but know you are crossed out of the line of posters who i will ignore and basically dismiss anything that gets posted.. i dont’ appreciate notorotious and genocidal denialists.. especially the lying ones…

    Get a life please…

    Gayane           

  1254. gor and jda, if people simply criticize Turkish politics and aspects of Turkish society, I will not call them enemies, even if I disagreee. but there are also people, and also here in Norway, who seem consistently to want to put both Turkey and Turks in a bad light, and who interpret Turks in a malignant way irrespective of the given situation. This is a problem as it stops us from moving forward in this world. And then of course some Turks give ammunition to these people by their words and behaviour

  1255. john the turk, mr wannabe/pseudo english, (cakma english, as they say turkey’s very good at producing fake goods, now they produce fake englishman aswell :) ).  let me tell you something, you and your likes in turkey have a fixation with the kurds and armenians.  i am from ankara and my ancestorries are from here.  if your state wants to commit suicide then they can try and do to us what you did to the armenians.  kurds are not just in istanbul but everywhere.  istanbul, ankara, antalya, izmir, manisa, adana, mersin,  everywhere.  the kurds do not support the pkk wholly because they dont agree with it.  but when it comes to a dead or life situation then do you think they will allow your state to the istanbuls ghettos (istanbulun varoşları)?  theres a free kurdistan in the country formerly called northern irak and thats called kurdistan.  if you want to know have a look at the papers coz your pm has just met the kurdistans president.  you are in denial and that will not change the future.  hopefully your likes are in minority in turkey.  turkey, i mean whole of turkey, belongs to armenians, rums, laz, circissians, turks, arabs and kurds.  and they lived here side by side for centuries until you get that virus that nearly destroyed your own nation.  get a life and go and meet some from other peoples of turkey then you will see that no one is better and superior than the other and differences  are merely down to the individuals.  racism is a virus and your people are suffering from it.  racism today is in the mainstream turkish media and its just sad to see how human beings can be so cruel to each other. 
    an english journalist once visited some afgan villages and the villagers were telling stories about the murderous english army with specific stories of cruelty, they sounded as if it had happened not more than hundred years ago butrecently.  it demonstrates that people/nations dont forget easily.  why do you get bitter when the armenians remember and wants to do something for the injustice that had befollen them.  my friend just put yourself in their place and think what would you have done. 

    • Firat…you seem to be very naive or a undercover Armenian Kurd…why would you support those who murdered your own people in Van , Erzurum and surrounding dogu anadolu..when the ottoman army withdraw from the cities, Armenian radicals massacred every Muslim (turkish and kurd,laz,arab..) even arriving Russian army was shocked to see how the evil minded greedy nationalist group of radical Armenians have done such a horrible and terrible acts towards their neighbours..the answer is simple greed for land, and pure hatred..like Serbs have hatred towards Bosnian..at least the Greeks are in this case better and more human. The current people here are nothing than brain washed propaganda products of hushnaks and other ill minded radical organizations.

  1256. Please remove the First Letter there are Mistakes
    ___________________________________
    This letter I had to my Site…
     
    hektor74 (3 months ago)

    im not live in turkey but for nationalist and fashist like you when it happend war betwween greeks or armenians i wil be in first rows of front against you trust me they are many turks kazaks azerbaijans turkmens who want to destroy your armenia caled country ….PRAY TO MOTHER RUSSIA TAHT YOUR STATE IS STEEL LIVE!!!
    ================
    To all our Writers on this Site…I appreciate your comments from The East till The west…
    Read his English…So accurate it Sounds…!!! 
    Can anyone on this site analyze the psychology of such a person…
    Although he is living In Germany A civilized place…
    Where he has many mosques …
    And our Ancient Churches abolished by their mindless hands
    Can a person like this cooperate…and behave like a Human…
    Can you think he is a human or still a scavenger like his fellowman…
    Which faith he is in …
    I am sure he never read Quran…
    Because Quran is written in Arabic …
    not in Turkish 
    I repeat…He lives In Germany…not in Turkey… 
    Thanks
    SP

  1257. dear sylvia, that hektor 74 is not from turkey i suspect, and he maybe originally from one of the russian republics.  turks, or those whose mother tongue is turkish or have been through the turkish education,  rarely use the phrase ”mother russia”. 
    and one more thing if you want to make a turkish fascist  angry and upset just repeat these words…KURDİSTAN, ERMENİ…so irrationale are they.  these two words are to the turkish nationalists  like what red is to bulls :) …i used to words fascists and nationalist interchangably consciously because they are the same in the turks case.  because to them nationalism aint about asking for the same rights and positive things for their nation, such as democracy, human rights, wealth and security, but claiming superiority over other people.  especially armenians and kurds and other people who arent turks. 

  1258. ragnar naess,     those who seem to consistently want to put both Turkey and Turks in a bad light and who interpret Turks in a malignant way, express their personal opinions based on their personal experiences, survivor stories, or readings of history of the gruesome Turkish presence in Asia Minor, Middle East, and Europe. But is it correct to stigmatize such opinion-holders as ‘enemies’ of Turkey?  Many posters here came to despise your unsubstantiated Turkophilia as a personal stand and some opinions stemming from it, but has anyone here ever called you an ‘enemy’ of Armenia?

  1259. Sylvia

    In norway we have a discussion about discussion groups and the internet in general. I have mentioned it. It seems that people with no inhibitions regarding agressiveness are drawn to internet discussions because one may be anonymous. The sites are invaded by people who say things they never would have dared to say if they had to sign with their name and adress. In ordinary conversations you have to be “man/woman for your word”. The WORDS COUNT for something. But on the internet this is not so. All you have to do is to open a hotmail adress with a fictitious name, and then nobody will find out who you are and you dont have to show any inhibitions at all. 

  1260. gor

    good question! First I dont know how to choose between being called an enemy and being despised. Maybe I would opt for the enemy label if I was in a position to choose? But most important, I have never  “consistently put Armenians and Armenia in a bad light”. If you look at my posts, there is a substantial record of expressed sympathy and support for the Armenian cause. But as I have said before, with all due respect, I feel you fail to appreciate my qualified support, and that this is regrettable

  1261. John the Turk

    arent you now committing a kind of intellectual suicide yourself?  Why should be listen to you at all?

  1262. Darwin and Joseph,     dead wrong points. The area Armenians inhabited for millennia was throughout history known as the Armenian Plateau or Armenian Highland or East Asia Minor. Never “Antalya” or “Anadolu” until Turks borrowed it from Greek “Anatolia” to designate the toponym for the area thus effectively erasing any mentioning of the “Armenian” in its historical name.

  1263. Ragnar-  you know what is regrettable?  is you having such strong pull toward Turkish govt and denialists.. no where in your posts did you express you feel the pain.. TRULY do. it is all for the show.. it is all for your own benefit… if you felt sympathy or understood what Armenians deal with you would have said “disposed”  or “inbreds”… and no you did not apologize for it.. sorry.. not to the person who brought forth this nonsympathetic words nor to all of us…. so please sir. stop your two faced self and start talking clear and precise.. I am tired of your fake supeiority and enigma self…

    Gor is absolutely right…  

  1264. Some may say that it is only semantics when debating the terms ‘Anatolia vs. Asia Minor or Armenian Plateau’, but Gor is right to imply that using the term ‘Anatolia or Anatolian’ is like participating in the denial of Armenian existence by Turks.  Names matter.  I am not opposed to the name ‘Anatolia’—but to what it represents in terms of conceding to Turkey the right to erase Armenia.

  1265. ragnar naess,       just like it might be said that you didn’t consistently put Armenians and Armenia in a bad light (although you allowed despicable words and hurt feelings more than once), no Armenian ever consistently put Turkey and Turks in a bad light or interpreted Turks in a malignant way.  Most of our comments pertained to the Seljuk or Ottoman, not modern-day, Turks.  Likewise, most of our comments pertained to their denialist government, not the nation, of Turkey.  While sympathy and support for the Armenian cause is at times present in your posts and is appreciated, this support has been demoted by comments that failed to affirm unambiguously, without vacillations, the name of the crime committed against the Armenians; accept the genocidal intent in the actions of high-level CUP perpetrators and the premeditated nature of mass killings; abandon absurdist juxtaposition of disparate historical events; and reject the intrusive and colonizing nature of Turk’s settlement in other peoples’ lands.  This is not a ‘qualified’ support.  If you only expressed moral sympathy and support without making denialist comments of legal and historical nature, that could be considered a qualified support.

  1266. John the Turk– and i have no problem if you get what people with your brain deficiency and genocidal self deserves.. only God will have a deserving punishment for your kind…

  1267. ragnar naess,      foreign minister Jonas Gahr Støre is currently visiting Armenia.  Mr Støre will visit the Armenian Genocide Memorial to pay respect to the victims.  He will then unveil the statue of Fridtjof Nansen and partake in the concert dedicated to Nansen’s 150th anniversary.  As far as I know, Norway so far didn’t recognize the genocide, yet your country’s foreign minister essentially admits the fact in his official capacity. I wish you had the courage to do so unambiguously on these pages and beyond.

  1268. The basic truth is that the Turks designed and executed the systematic extermination of Armenians and the confiscation of all their properties and possessions. There are many statistics surrounding these atrocities…but the truth is that the Ottoman Turks [the government, the people, the freed prison criminals, the Kurds that were promised land and property] systematically slaughtered, raped, tortured, enslaved and forcibly converted 3 to 5 million Armenian, Assyrian, Greek and other Christian minorities in Asia Minor. This is not myth or gossip….it is a true reality that has been documented in thousands of articles, reports, books and other materials from the 1880s to the 1940s! This remains a horrendous, atrocious, hideous, inhuman reality that testifies to the horror and savagery with which the human race is capable of expressing hatred and furor that surpasses even animal behavior. Even Hitler, in his unquenchable thirst for Jewish blood, was unable to duplicate the horror and diversity of atrocities endured at the hands of the Turks and their lackeys….the Kurds. Even God himself….Allah…was unable to comprehend to this day….the sick and inhuman behavior of his creatures……

  1269. I have a dream. The Syrian Armenians come back to Anatolia, their motherland, not temporarly, to forever, after from all of the world, all armenians come their home, maybe they will not find their father’s home and churches, we can built together with a big sorry.

    • Istanbul – that is just one of the best things i have read so far on this page…I wish the armenian genocide would be recognized by turkey … it is something all armenians ask for as a tribute to the lost souls of our ancestors, that will be the only time when us armenians will be free because we know we got the right of our ancestors even if they are not here to witness. After that I am sure it would be great for armenians and turks to join their hands together and live together happily without any form of hate or grudge. Maybe then we would be the generation that brought back peace and harmony between both nations. Maybe then we would all participate in lighting candles every April 24 1915 for the people who’s soul were lost. Probably a dream I have but dreams do come true sometimes. :)

    • The historical motherland of the Armenians is called ‘Eastern Asia Minor’ not ‘Anatolia-Anadolu’, a newly -invented and a Turkified toponym.

      Why won’t the Turks first give us ‘a big sorry’ and then we’ll think whether we’d want to live with them together again?

      ‘Build together’, istanbul? You mean, in an old Turkish way: Armenians will build and Turks will destroy? Or Armenians will build (Dolmabache and scores of mosques) and Turks will enjoy and declare them as theirs?

      If Armenians ever return to their motherland, it’d need to be Western Armenia. Enough of Turkey and Turks already!

  1270. WE have to be more pragmatic and REALISTIC,if we waxnt to achieve some results by discussing issues here VERY FRANKLY and t r u l y ….
    Not by guesing or DREAMING….
    Dreams are like watching a movie a ficticious one at that…not froma true sstory.Latter indeed filmed ..represents the actual acts occurances that are real.
    Now then, Up above Vtiger asks or declares Palestine is for Palestinians or..
    Well, indeed, if we watch what is happening -in facxt- these days of November 20th 2012, we shall see that the Palestinian Arabs,are NOT CONTENT with what land they are on and they keep rocketing Israel…
    Israel, my friend is not a a Yahoodi-jehoudi land(this is how they are dubbed in the Middle East) I don´t blame them…they are not well-informed.
    Thus:-The people that occupy their millenia old JUDEA(read Israel) are not the original yahoodis of Jesus christ time that left or were pressed out of that land-pretty much like the Armenians from Western Armenia..
    These people iin Israel are EURO-AMERIDCAN SOUTH AMERICANs who went back..they think ,behave and live like Euros,Americans .In fact I shall be sjurprised if they also act like Germans(becasue…they hail s,some of them from germany)–Thence ,Like I just explained accept these facts or else..
    KEEP DREAMING!!!!!
    cOME TO THINK OF AND DREAM THAT ARMENIANS WILL GO BACK AND LIVE IN WESTER ARMENIA …MARK THIS,THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF THE WHOLE THING… < u n d e r t h e t u r k i sh r u l e…Now I call that a pure dream.Especially for those empty headed turks who are brainwashed are not familiar with the 1918 BIG FIGHT THAT THE ARMENIANS(WHATEVER WAS LEFT OF THEM IN EAST ARMENIA PLUS THOSE fro,m West… WENT- RAN THERE FROM WEST……to put up the fight for I N D E P E N D E C E and we wond and our Republic was formed and recognized even by the Turkish sÇtate then….
    So now you want us to go and live side by side with an adversay???? nay an enemy that day in day out through little brother Axedrbaijan is threatending to invade NAGORNYUI KARABASH OUR ARTSAKH?????
    or i am crazy or some of you guys here whether turk euro or armenian even..
    sHORT OF recognizing BY GREAT TURKEY THAT ARMENIA IS FROM VAN-BITLIS TO IGDIR MAVA TO NEAR TRABZON PART OF ARMENIA R E A L THEN WE HAVE PROBLEM WITH THEM.THEY WILL BEND OVER PURDY SOON WHEN K U R D S BEGIN TO MOVE AND WE SHALL ALSO STAND UP !!!!

  1271. May IO add further that above two maps that show the schools and churches (that painstakingly have been presented to us) by author Mr. Raffi Bedrossyan is very much commendable.This shows that WE ARE THE ONES THAT LIVED THERE FOR MILLENIA AND WERE …. E V I C T E D from there..by the Osmanli ,later Kemalist ( and now great Turkey)…..
    We must get well organized before ANYTHING…talk ,shows of this that nature only help us ,or rather SHOULD ENCOURAGE US TO O R G A N I Z E….
    Not lioke the traditional armenian establishments pof yesteryear…
    BUT IN A MUCH MORE ADVANCED ONE THAT I KEEP ON TRIUMPETING.
    By forming into Professional Colleagues Assciations PCA´s…that is wehre our vertebral column is … our future relies on a System a New System that will allow these good people a 100,000 strong to come forth and through their org. help shape up a new SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE..
    Enough relying on the 160 year old Sahmanatrutyun..
    We need a NEW STATUTE FOR THE ARMENIAN DIASPORA THAT WILL ENLAP THE ABOVE PCA´s AND THROUGH THEM ESTABLISH A NATIONAL Investment Trust Fund(Nucleus of which by our 5/6 magnates…
    For they are the ones that can get around them to begin investing into the F U N D…otherwise the popping up Fundraisers are hot air…come and go.
    THE F U N D SHOULD BE IN SWITZERLAND GOVERNED BY THE PROXIES OF THE MAGNATES…so as to inspire CONFIDENCE!!!
    For if you trust in me and invest WITH ME….i SHALL PICK UP WHAT YOU HAVE INVESTED AND GO DANCE sAMBA IN Rio do Janeiro…UNDERSTAND? MONEY GOES TO WHERE MONEY IS …
    onLY COUPLE DAYS AGO i READ A WHOLE TEN PAGE REPORT ACCUSING ONE OF OUR SUCH fUNDLINGS OF A FEW MILLION DOLLARS…
    i AM TALKING A B O U T A working capital to be formed by the magnates of at least a b i l l i o n dollars, a PERMANENT ONE THAT IS INDISSOLUBLE and then the millionaires all the waxy down to hundred dollar investors will chip in…THEN WE SHALL SEE HOW money talks in foreign press, our OBJECTIVES WILL THEN BY AND BY TAKE SHAPE!!!
    stop day dreaming adn act to jpoin into pca-S

  1272. to these we should also add all the catholic Armenian Churches and Armenian Protestants also plus the Armenian Mechitarists Fathers churches and the Armenian Nuns ones plus schools.

  1273. John Anatolia is as old as the anciant Greeks Anatolia in anciant greek means the lands where the sun rises! It is not a turkish invented name!

  1274. I know this, Armen. Greeks called it ‘Anatolia’ (east–or sunrise–of Greece/Byzantine). However, in many historical chronicles or history and geography books, the region is referred to as ‘Asia Minor’ with historic Armenia being a part of it. It is a Turkish invented name because Turks distorted the original Greek toponym calling the region ‘Anadolu’. It is also a Turkish invention because Turks apply the name to their eastern regions whereas ancient Greeks and Byzantines were referring to Anatolia as a region populated by non-Turks, mostly by Armenians. Turks appeared in the region only in the 11th century AD as a result of Seljuk nomadic invasion. In this sense, ‘Anadolu’ is a Turkish distortive creation, such as many others: Constantinople-Istanbul, Ararat-Agri being just a few of them.

  1275. First, thanks for listing the churches and schools. Is there a larger resolution that I could get showing the tow maps you have posted of the churches and schools lost. I would like to zoom in closer.
    One other question, do you have the Agos website link to their page showing Armenian’s searching for relatives? Something like that, not sure of the pages title.
    Barry

  1276. My family has a map of our village but I have never been able to find out what became of it. The name of the village as close as I can make out is Sagh megah. Have you heard of this place and if so where is it?
    Yervant

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