Since every Armenian around the world passionately upholds the interests of Artsakh (Karabagh), many wonder why the government of Armenia has not yet officially recognized its independence from Azerbaijan.
Armenia’s leaders are concerned that recognizing Artsakh’s independence prematurely would undermine the peace process with Azerbaijan and possibly subject Armenia to international pressure and sanctions. Moreover, President Serge Sarkisian has announced that Armenia would recognize Artsakh in case Azerbaijan resorts to war.
Opposition political figures assert that Artsakh’s recognition is long overdue and blame Armenian officials for not formally recognizing its independence. They also wonder how Armenians can expect other countries to recognize the Republic of Artsakh without Armenia taking the lead. Based on these arguments, opposition Heritage Party members periodically bring up a resolution to the Armenian Parliament for the recognition of the Republic of Artsakh. Undoubtedly, such proposals are prompted out of a sincere conviction that Armenia has an obligation to recognize this liberated territory. However, some are convinced that the opposition’s true intent is to embarrass the government’s majority by daring its members to cast a vote against Artsakh’s independence.
Such resolutions create awkward situations not only for pro-government parliamentarians but also for other opposition members, who are compelled to support the resolution to not give the false impression that they oppose Artsakh’s independence.
On Nov. 13, when Zaruhi Postanjian, leader of the Heritage Parliamentary bloc, proposed such a resolution, the final vote was 10 in favor and 0 against. The resolution was not adopted even though no one voted against it, as the overwhelming majority of the 131 parliamentarians decided to boycott the session rather than vote against Artsakh’s recognition.
Surprisingly, officials of Armenia, Artsakh, and Azerbaijan have had a similar reaction to the resolution. Vahram Atanessian, chairman of Artsakh’s Foreign Relations Committee, expressed his agreement with the position of Armenia’s parliamentary majority: “At this moment, recognition of the Artsakh Republic does not serve a useful purpose, as it would cause a number of significant problems.” Shavarsh Kocharyan, the deputy foreign minister of Armenia, concurred: “Recognizing Artsakh at this time would be contrary to Armenia’s interests, because it would make it the only country to do so, thus creating an unfavorable situation for Armenia at the present time.”
Elman Abdullayev, the spokesman for Azerbaijan’s Foreign Ministry, agreed with Armenian officials: “The discussion of the bill on the recognition of Nagorno-Karabagh as an independent state by the Armenian Parliament would negatively affect the peaceful settlement of the conflict and aims at undermining this process.” Azeri political scientist Fikrat Sadikhov reacted with harsher words: “Such recognition would be a blunt challenge to Azerbaijan, which, of course, would not remain unanswered. Yerevan is very well aware that such a move by Armenia would be crossing the red line, which still detains Azerbaijan from more forceful and radical steps in respect of the release of its lands.”
Sadikhov further stated: “The Armenian leadership understands that by recognizing the independence of the separatist regime, it will radicalize and exacerbate the situation, and enrage international organizations and regional powers.”
Despite the potentially complicating consequences of Artsakh’s recognition, Armenians worldwide enthusiastically support the independence of the Republic of Artsakh. However, it would be preferable that such resolutions be brought to the parliament’s consideration only after securing the approval of all factions. Otherwise, when a handful of opposition parliamentarians place this issue on the agenda against the majority’s wishes, it appears that their whole purpose is partisan political gain, and sends the wrong signal to Azerbaijan and countries around the world that Armenia is against Artsakh’s independence. Furthermore, the opponents of such resolutions are typically accused of siding with Azerbaijan on this critical issue, thereby undermining Armenian efforts to secure international recognition for the Republic of Artsakh.
A more preferable strategy for supporting Artsakh’s independence would be to strengthen the Republic of Armenia politically, economically, and militarily so that its leaders would not have to be too concerned about international condemnation and sanctions, whenever they decide it is the opportune time to recognize the Republic of Artsakh.
Harut Sassounian
{“it appears that their whole purpose is partisan political gain,”}.
Their whole purpose _is_ partisan political gain: the heck with Armenia and NKR.
And it clearly demonstrates that Heritage Party, including leader Raffi Hovannisian, are immature children unqualified to run a remote village post office.
The public temper tantrums and juvenile theatrics of their leaders Raffi Hovannisian and Zaruhi Postanjian amply demonstrate their utter political bankruptcy.
At least Heritage faction head Ruben Hakobyan had enough integrity to resign his position after MP Postanjian’s outrage at PACE.
Not surprisingly, Heritage (Raffi) replaced him with Zaruhi Postanjian as Parliamentary faction head.
Վայ քեզ երկիր որ թագավորտ մանուկ է
Dear Harut,
Your above article is very much to the point and clearly describes the intricacies and complicated politics that are important to know,for us all.Thanks.You certainly deserve to be our (Diaspora´s)spokesperson this side of the Atlantic Ocean.BTW,I wish you would establish contact with other(s)on the other side,namely in France, Jean Eckjian(journalist) and Laurent leylekian editor of France -Armenie….
=====================================================================
To Avery,
Please, be a bit more soft,mind you did not say respectful,you can respect a person or not like him/her but not refer to them downgrading them.I know both Raffi quite a bit,been with him a few times,just met with Zaaruhi Postanjian,while Raffi delivered a discourse.Both are persons to be respected.They are patriots in their own rights…
You know I did get convinced that Raffi would not fulfill position of presidency.Hoever, he was the only one with ¨cojones¨ to lead the UN-ORGANIZED opposition.No one else could ,or would undertake to stand up and make present regime understand that it is high time they began to C H A N G E ….or else the people would REVOLT. I personally hope that does not happen and pres. Serge Sargshyan will begin to appoint MORE OPPONENTS(POLITICAL ones)to `positions important.for we do need their ideas,help work in all sense of these words.We cannot discard people who are patritos but have different ideas of Governance.Also time for our political parties in RA and overseas to think of a NEW Statute-this for Diaspora and changes in RA.Time to act. Now!!!
The current situation is highly complicated and cannot be resolved by partisan politics or emotional outbursts.
The question in my mind is why do we want or need to have an independent “Republic of Artsakh”. How is that republic going to survive, politically, economically and be self sustained and self sufficient?
First and foremost, the present conflict and impasse with the Azeris
has to be resolved whether we like it or not with the help and support of International Organizations who are influenced primarily by the US and Russia, who sadly are engaged in a dangerous “chess game”. Republic of Armenia has to play a critical role in that process.
The status quo cannot last forever.
Once there is a resolution, serious consideration should be given for Artsakh to join Armenia. Obviously that can only happen if the electorate in Artsakh and Armenia approve in a referendum of the merger. The unification of West and East Germany is a prime example.
Food for thought!!!
“Armenia’s leaders are concerned that recognizing Artsakh’s independence prematurely would undermine the peace process with Azerbaijan and possibly subject Armenia to international pressure and sanctions.”
Armenia’s not claiming Artsakh as an Armenian province has psychological roots. Armenians are Christians and Christians tend to be cautious. If Azerbaijan had occupied Artsakh it would have recognized it as part of itself in a second, just like Turkey did with northern Cyprus!
I know that Christians are cautious and often cowardly because I live in Europe and I can see how Christian Europeans (yes, practising Christians) advocate Muslim immigration.
Would imams in, say Pakistan, advocate Christian immigration to their country??
PS. What peace process?
To non christian Armenian.Just indicate in what country of Europe practicing Christians advocate Muslim immigration?
The only one that had to bring them in in quite large numbers was Germany and that for rebuilding Germany .Then they abruptly became suspicious of especially Turkish inflow and now it is very hard for new immigrants to enter for residency there.
FAct is Germany is one of the opponents Turkish Entry into EU.
As to your comparing Pakistan(why don´t you compare other such) with a Euro country.Please study what is occurring on the Euro present scene.
ALL Western countries “practise” Muslim immigration. Priests in Europe even hide Muslims “refugees” in their churches so that they can escape deportation by authorities. This is well known to anyone living in Europe. I don’t know about the States.
Islam is a religion that commands its followers to fight, Christianity talks about meekness and turning the other cheek.
If you deny that Christianity is a more peaceful and passive religion (nevermind the Spaniards, they went against Christianity!) than Islam and that this has psychological consequences on its followers in dealing with latter religion, then let me smile.
So it seems that it is the state policy of Armenia and its vast majority of its people to play a disingenuous. You guys have no plans whatsoever to NOT recognize Karabak as independent, but you don’t want to confess to this officially because doing so would mess with the pretensions of a peace process. At least we Azeris take a very honest approach to the problem: we are against Karabak “independence”! Period. No games. You are playing games, on the other hand. You are scared of Azerbaijan having no choice but start a war (if you were to recognize it as independent), and so you want to continue the BS. The whole peace process is a joke or façade. And our Aliyev is in on it, with OSCE, Russia, etc … carry on the status quo. Soon Aliyev will be gone. And then watch out Armenia. If I were a general in Azeri army, I would see such a great opportunity for a coup: “Look folk, he was a traitor, BS-ing us with a fake peace process while our land remains under occupation for 20 years. It is time to take action. And here it comes.” And people would support him. And Aliyev sees such dangerous. That is why he has been crying like a baby “The peace process is dead, my dear Russia. Hurry up, let’s start the game again to keep my people deceived and off my back, while my 5-year old family members buy villas in Dubai!” And you know salivate at the idea of insability in Azerb, because you took cowardish advantage of it in 1990s. But this time, there will be no internal chaos but a national union against the external aggressor. It will not be like the stupid Arab spring, but a la Ata Turk gathering up Turks to fight off the aggressors! Yes, the Azeri Ata Turk will come out. The BS peace process can continue only for so long.
Karim:
where have you been, pal ?
I thought you finally made good on your promise to leave AW.
Welcome back: don’t go away for too long.
I will address your post shortly (…other more urgent items to attend to).
Unfortunately for Azerbaijan’s “Ataturk”, the real one was a decorated war hero.
@Karim, I don’t know if I should laugh at your juvenile outburst or feel sorry that you are having a nervous breakdown. Enough already with your hollow excuses about your humiliating defeat in the 90s. The fact that you blame everything under the sun for your defeat, instead of giving credit to the dedicated Armenian fighters with volunteer and fedayi menatility handing you that defeat, speaks volumes about your sad and fragile state of mind. Keep living in such an absurd denial because the reality is far too grim. Keep pumping up your deflated spirit with your make-believe stories to justify your shortcomings I am sure it is very therapeutic.
You need to shake off that empty pride of yours and come down to reality to face the facts. Before the collapse of the Soviet Union you had the Soviet army fighting on your side, not because they were fond of you but for the sake of the Soviet Empire itself, and even then a mere 150,000 Karabakh Armenians fighting against 7,000,000 Azerbaijanis, handed you a bitter defeat. A defeat that to this day is eating you up inside and so much so that makes you react the way you do. Armenians won the war because they fought for their survival and righteous cause while the Azerbaijanis fought to continue to maintain their illegal hold on the ancient Armenian province taken away from them by force.
Recently, you blamed the Russians for being in your way for not being able to take action against us and now you are blaming your coward president Ilham Aliyev himself. You never seem to run out of excuses and you keep looking for new ones. You keep looking for twisted ideas and hypothesis to undermine our abilities and to put us down. You went on accusing Armenia as being a Russian outpost while elevating and admiring the autocratic and corrupt Azerbaijan as a utopic state with “real” independence. Given all this self-indulging nonsense, I wonder how such an independent state, with all its petrodollars, can’t even take a unilateral step to solve its issues with the so-called “aggressors” and instead has to keep shuffling back and forth to Ankara, the sister capital to the Azerbaijani slaves, and have the three Turkish stooges, Erdogan-Gul-Davutoglu, speak on its behalf.
You sure let your imagination go wild with all your fantasy scenarios. You keep looking for some new leader who is going to come galloping down on his white horse wielding his shining armor and set things straight until you become disillusioned and disappointed with him and start looking for yet another leader to fulfill your fantasies. At the end of the day, these are nothing but fantasies and imaginations. In the 90s, Mutalibov was the traitor so you replaced him with Elchibey followed by the late Heydar Aliyev to save you and set things straight with us. Mutalibov went on exile in Russia and the other two are dead in their graves. Elchibey had even a wilder imagination than you. He boasted in a year he will be swimming in Lake Sevan in contemporary Armenia proper. I am sure you realize where I am going with this. There sure is a pattern here: Talking big and making promises but not having the ability and the heart to make good on them. What do you think is going to happen even if this imaginary Azerbaijani leader shows up? If he tries anything against the Karabakh Armenians then naturally Armenia will officially recognize Karabakh’s independence and you will have to fight against the combined Armenian and Karabakh forces. You attack Armenia proper and that will compel Russia into action in defense of Armenia, based on a military and security treaty, and now you will be facing the Russians as well. To this day, with all your oil revenues and empty threats, you have not been unable to face the Karabakh defense forces alone and I wonder in how many directions you will be running away from us when you face all three. It will be the end of the artificial state of Azerbaijan for sure.
I laugh at Aliyev when I see him visiting and inspecting the front lines dressed in his fake army uniform. Back in the 90s, at his ripe military age, when he was supposed to wear that uniform and show his courage and patriotism he was missing in action hiding behind his father’s skirt. Today, he is hiding behind his petrodollars and talking tough like the rest of you but never able to put his petrodollars where his mouth is. Unlike the fake Azerbaijani leaders, the Armenian leaders were born and raised in their military uniforms. All current and former Armenian leaders were fighting on the front lines as soldiers and commanders when Aliyev was safe in his daddy’s palace watching his countrymen being killed and chased away by the Armenians. Now, here you are scaring Armenians from some imaginary and fictitious Azerbaijani leader who, like all the rest before him, is going to chase us out and deliver you the promise land. Keep on dreaming it’s free and gives you false hope to carry on. Based on your president’s dishonorable records I can safely say it is the Azerbaijanis who are scared of the Armenians and not the other way around. Trust me you are a fool to even remotely believe that Armenians are scared of the Azerbaijanis. Unlike you, we don’t shoot our mouths off with empty threats but rest-assured we know very well how to fight and crush and destroy that threat. If push comes to shove you will be running just like you did 20 years ago because today you may have bigger toys but you still need the heart to play with those toys which you don’t have because we took them away from you already. Besides, I have no doubt we are much more militarized than you are despite your useless military spending. Well, perhaps in a decade or two you can put all that useless rusted metal into good use by erecting monuments to the memories of Safarov and the others alike when we neutralize him and his kinds.
P.S. If I were you the last person I would wish for would be an Azeri Ataturk. This criminal character Ataturk had a certain “hidden” reputation that, if true, would qualify him for stoning to death or firing squad according to the sharia laws of the land of your true ancestors south of the Aras River.
Ararat: perhaps he was a donmeh, perhaps he wasn’t. Regardless of his origin, he clearly was not a religious person, and some even claim he was an Atheist. This much is pretty obvious. No “man of God” could have established a secular state, and aimed to transform the social and cultural constructs of Islam that played a great role in the demise of the Ottoman Empire. As to stoning people like him in Iran, it goes back to what I’ve always said: you cannot (not you personally) make an argument that your society is more civilized because you have been around longer or are indigenous to your homeland. It also shows the nature of ‘true’ Islam, but thats a discussion for another time.
My Euro-Turkish brother R2D2,
By “hidden,” my nationalist brother Ararat meant that Kemal was gay, not Jew. Under sharia laws, they don’t stone the people of the book (i.e. Jews), but they stone the people of the anus. Kemal had attractive features, I will say that. Along the lines of Antonio Banderas. If I were a movie maker, I would cast Banderas as Kemal. It’s surprising that no one has thought of that.
Of course, nothing wrong with being gay. But it just makes it interesting as to what would my Turkish brothers’ reaction be as a nation if it were confirmed that their father was homosexual.
My Turkish brother R2D2, by “hidden,” Ararat meant that Kemal was gay, not a Jew. Under Islamic law, you get stoned for being gay, not a Jew.
Vahagn: My bad, I didn’t get the memo that we had moved on from the Jewish and alcoholic conspiracy theories to him being gay. Thanks for the heads up.
Karim: Not all Armenians play games. I think Armenia should have claimed Artsakh as Armenian land the same second it was liberated.
You talk a lot. I take it you will be there if there is a war?
At least I admit that I’m just a keyboard warrior.
Remember, talk is cheap.
PS. It’s not your land, you are invaders from Central Asia.
Yes, Karim:
Not only is it State policy, but vast majority of Armenians in RoA, NKR, Russian Diaspora, Western Diaspora, Galactic Diaspora are learning to play “disingenuous”, as you put it: we learned it from you AzeriTatarTurks and Turks.
We have believed your lies, false promises, ‘agreements’ and such for too long; been too trusting and honest with you guys for too long: and we have been screwed over every time.
In 1994 your former President Aliyev Sr signed a ceasefire with NKR leadership.
He signed a ceasefire after begging Moscow to stop fresh NKR tank columns from pushing even deeper and finishing off what remained of the badly mauled Azerbaijani army.
Yet your side has violated the ceasefire repeatedly ever since, killing and wounding several hundred Armenian soldiers over the years.
{“ You are scared of Azerbaijan having no choice but start a war (if you were to recognize it as independent), and so you want to continue the BS”}
You keep regurgitating this b____s___t about Armenians being “scared” of Azerbaijan.
You don’t know much about Artsakhtsi Armenians, do you Karim ? Who do you think crushed and threw out AzeriTatarTurk invaders and their allies from their native Armenian lands ? It was 150,000 NKR Artsakhtsi against 7 million Azerbaijan: they stood and fought like lions; the mountain warriors of Artsakh do not know the meaning of the word ‘fear’.
The one who had fear was Aliyev Sr, who was on the phone to Moscow every day in 1994 begging them to stop NKR Armenians from advancing towards Baku.
You want more ? watch the battlefield videos of the destruction of the elite Azerbaijani Geranboy Battalion by Armenian warriors: tell us whose soldiers there are running, whose soldiers are crying from fear.
Armenian leaders of RoA and NKR are not scared: they are smart and prudent.
Why should RoA and NKR upset the apple cart ? Things are going swimmingly for our side.
Any large scale military conflict will result in needless casualties on our side, with no gain.
Hundreds of our young men will be killed or wounded – for no reason.
You guys want to waste your young men ? Go ahead.
Our young men are too precious to waste on the altar of cheap pride.
RoA and NKR are united in everything but name.
RoA de-facto recognized NKR more than 20 years ago.
NKR uses RoA currency; NKR dignitaries travel the world on RoA passports.
RoA Pres Sargsyan and RoA DM Seyran Ohanyan, hero of Shushi Liberation, regularly visit NKR to review and oversee NKR Armed Forces and maneuvers.
And every day, every month, every year the ties between RoA motherland and NKR keep growing and getting stronger.
This year the theme of the Annual Telethon is a new highway to add one more link from Mother RoA to our NKR:
Take a look at this beautiful map and the road we are going to build:
http://armenianweekly.com/2013/10/22/armenia-fund-telethon-2013-a-new-route-to-security-and-prosperity/#prettyPhoto/0/
And, Karim, you can also donate: we gladly accept donations from our dear neighbors.
https://armeniafund.ejoinme.org/?tabid=319547
And you are correct: OCSE is playing a game with Azerbaijan, until the oil runs out.
Then Azerbaijan will be abandoned by the West.
And then the indigenous peoples, such as Taklysh, Avars, etc will rise up and overthrow the nomad Turkic oppressors.
btw: did you know one of the Talysh commanders of an Azerbaijani battalion during the war has been touring Armenia and NKR to gather support for his oppressed people ?
And those Armenians who insist RoA – and only RoA – recognize NKR de jure are either completely clueless about how this world works or …..
Avery,
I ´m surprised that you with so much patience are giving lessons to Karim.A very conservative armenian friend of mine in paris …long ago took me to a cafe and there when the two of us only said , unless you hit hard on the ¨Ghaffa¨ of a Turk he will not understand logic. IThis can also be interpreted that instead of you me and others just defending our stance against these like,should hit hard the reality ¨give it to them¨ that we are there to freclaim our ancient motherland of Nakhijevan back, Gandz(Genjeh) back …these only from axerbeijan.Our real Basic issue Himnahartz is the Western Armenian Lands,where our/my ancestors had property business etc.We are to claim these and get back, when the time is right.At presenst we are to deal issues such as BLOOD MONEY for the 1.5 million innocent Armenians slaughtered,evicted from their ancestors´lands.Axerbeijan is small change in our pockets…
I have seen the Marseilles armeniasn on the street in tens of thousands some 30 yrs ago on April 24….ready to tear down every brick of the Toikish consulate there…heavily guarded by French soldiers with machine guns .Karim must be very ignorant history wise, or else he is trying to agitate us really for nothing.We know what we cliam and will be at it untill final triumph.
Today´s news was that Egypt´s Gov.t has asked Turkish Ambassador to leave Egypt.Iran has finally has been given right to proceed with nuclear power research for peaceful purposes and Sanctions will be lifted on her..
This is just a first bout of JUSTICE for us Armenians,making those who are not just towards others and in extension to states/ people well disposed to Armenians understand that there is a limit of aggression anywise,whether by rhetoric ,insulting and also threats.Looks like Armenians´ God is gradually paying attn: to our plight and will by and by put those who have badly treated us in place.So this man Karim in a way is incognizant of what his people have done to us in B aki in 1905 and prior to that in the KHAMSAI MELIKUTYUNER, But Davit BEG dealt a blow to them so as they would not think Armenians can always be trampled jupon.As to contemporary Artsakh Armenians and Armenians at large ,they are busy planning for an important 2015 TSUNAMI,as someone puts it.Take care..
Mr. Palandjian:
The purpose of most of my posts is not to convince guests like Karim: he has his worldview and I have mine.
We are sort of playing to the undecided 3rd -party audience (courtesy of AW): that is why I am so “patient”.
Karim presents his version re Azerbaijan, NKR, etc. @AW.
Myself and my able compatriots present ours.
And we let the ‘Jury’ decide who speaks the truth and who manufactures ‘facts’.
For every AW reader that posts comments, there are hundreds that just read: we try to convince them to see things our way, the factual way, the Just way.
Karim says he is an Azeri: so I expect him to argue his side vigorously.
I give him kudos for staying this long @AW and doing ‘literary battle’ with multiple well-prepared, knowledgeable Armenian posters (excepting yours truly of course: an ill-prepared ignoramus at best).
All by himself. He is on the wrong side, but he tries: let’s give him a break.
He is wrong in most of his beliefs about NKR, but I understand he would see things that way from where he stands.
Even though Karim has written some strange things, such as “…yes, I do hate Armenians….”, I do not hold it against him: I take it as him being deeply hurt at the massive loss of territory and Azerbaijani soldiers KIA, so I cut him lots of slack.
Karim considers our lands as ‘theirs’: at the gut level, it can only hurt like heck to have lost so badly and have lost so much.
Our fighting men hosed them, but their KIA guys were somebody’s son, brother, father.
Invade our lands, and our men _Will_ _Kill_ _You_ with no compunction whatsoever.
But huge numbers of their KIA were indigenous peoples, Talysh, Avar, etc – who were shanghaied and sent to the front on pain of death by their nomad Turkic oppressors. Our men had no choice but to kill them: very sad indeed. We, indigenous peoples of Caucasus – Christian and Muslim – need to fight against our common enemy: progeny of nomadic, invading Turkic tribes. Armenians have no quarrel with other indigenous peoples: there is room for everyone to live and prosper in peace.
Karim is open and upfront about his positions: I can work with that.
On the other hand, I know of at least two posters (possibly 3) who post regularly under authentic Armenian names @AW and are in fact Anti-Armenian shills.
And you Sir, have been taken by them on many occasions.
So don’t worry about Karim: he is not hiding his agenda.
Worry about ‘Armenians’ who cause far more damage to our Cause from within than an outsider like Azerbaijani Karim ever could.
Avery,
I read your above post with somewhat dismay and wish to ask you to clarify firstly to whom do you refer to within brackets and I quote(excepting yours truly of course:an ill-prepared ignoramus at best).If you are referring to yourself in a humble manner, that is your right,otherwise if to anyone else ,take it back please!!!
Indeed you have all the right to continue your give and take with karim or any other Turk or Axeri on this site,no body cares about that. Your continuous dialogue -debate with karim and Co. is your business.I merely wished to convey that you certainly have patience,which some like self have already experienced that more than you can think.Fact is we talked physically with Truks in our conferences in pairs,Lausanne etc.,those who represent their people.Futile , indeed,but the debate goes on..Just a few days ago in istanbulla, both ARF reps. And Civilitas delegates carried on with reps. of the so called turks.So called ,becasue they are careful not to directly themselves do that and delegate Turks of Kurdish origin-so as their prestige as super power oin Mid east and especially with the Ermenis will not be downgraded…did you know that?They still consider themselves like their predecessor Envers and Talaat..supermen.
But you did not comment on my latest ,more or less,rather less, news that their such l ike evaluation , respect is finally being lowered. by getting chucked out (diplomat from Egypt) and indirectly when Iran, is being placed on a rapprochement basis with the U.S.A.Good news for us Armenians.Turkey´s importance thus being by and by questioned.If you have studied and know about the Talish,may I add the Persian Tabaristan(smaller community)indigenous peoples of the area,I have met with them in Iran,where I was born and studied in Armeno Persian school…
I don´t really approve of you last sentence that you -posting -addressing to me write ¨worry¨about Armenians causing more damage to our Cause.I have not seen one here on this site or Keghart or any other as doing that.Dissidents ,indeed,just switch on to Channel 1204 AMGA of L.A. and you can find them there.But then try to understand why in the country of the Free,these are allowed to write say what they wish.No, I vehemently defy you in this respect.I respect our dissidents-though I may not agree with them-Our enemies are not the peoples of great Turkey and the kurds,but their so called intellectuals that ,geaared up, wound upt(like they were toys) by the Govt.,s day in day out attack us and try to deny the Genocide their ancestors committed on my family and a million more …this is what we are up against.
To surmise, do please suit yoruself carry on your debate,conversation dialogue with karim and co.that´s your business,if you have the patience and try to educate them!!!
Myself, an old person with some experience in dealing with Turco Azeris,are over patient and await when more above 2 like small(important) ocurrances will repeat, paving the way to make the world acknowledge the Armenian Genocide .For the world owes that much to our people,at the very least…
My answer to educate these TWO adversaries of ours is to hope and wait until Obama like leaders by and by change their stance towards others( Iranians for instance)and Arab States ,like Egypt recognize our Genocide!!!
Excellent points, Gaytzag. The dogma pushers among us fail to realize that we Armenians are too freedom loving to be silenced in the name of “unity.” They also fail to realize that continued attempts to silence free exchange of ideas will only weaken and ultimately destroy our homeland by driving more and more of our brethren away.
May God bless Ara Baliozian. May God bless Ashot Bleyan.
“(excepting yours truly of course: an ill-prepared ignoramus at best).”
[‘yours truly’.
an informal term for I, myself, or me
…from the conventional closing phrase used at the end of letters
Usage notes: usually used as a humorous way of referring to yourself]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/yours+truly
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/yours+truly
{“I don´t really approve of you last sentence that you -posting -addressing to me write ¨worry¨ about Armenians causing more damage to our Cause.I have not seen one here on this site”}
Sorry Mr. Palandjian: you have not seen, because you are too kind-hearted a gentlemen to see these things.
Trust me (but verify): they are here, posting regularly @AW.
Look very carefully, Sir: there is one right over there.
Very, very close.
[and the reason I see these things is that, yours truly:
1) is not a gentleman.
2) is not kind-hearted .
3) has been specially trained and certified (by yours truly) to see these things]
[it’s a dirty job, but somebody gots to do it]
@Ararat, yet again you fail at making sense. You say that Russia actually helped us in Karabak war?! So what changed their mind all of a sudden that they are now your openly strategic partner? Just think about it! Don’t just laugh at everything that you disagree with. Think instead.
@RVDV, you fare no better in the sense-making department when you say Ataturk was a war hero. The silly assumption you make is that for an Ataturk-like figure to emerge in Azerbaijan, he has to be a former war veteran too. Are you saying all historical leaders have been in the military before? Now, ever since I have questioned your Turkish-ness, you have been like a little mosquito vzzzing under my ear, leaving jibe-ful comments.
@Avery, have some scale to your claims of greatness. Karabak is merely 1.7 square miles, about the size of 5 puny Glendales. If you think that we Azeris are traumatized beyond repair because of the loss of this mostly mountainous land with a bunch of bushes here and there, but mostly barely rock, then, oh man, you Armenians are long gone because of the loss Western Armenia. So, please look in the mirror before your project your insecurities onto others.
And, if you are not afraid of Azerbaijan, please do explain what is the meaning of the “security concerns” that your leadership has cited as a reason for selling yourselves to Putin’s Russia?
But fine, you have won Karabak, but you have done so at the price of Armenia’s independence. Just today a Gallup poll came out, showing that Armenia is the #2 suffering country in the world!!! Worse than Haiti, worse than Madagascar, worse than Syria!! Now, my friends, that is the statistic you need to worry about. Yes, you have won (maybe permanently or maybe not) a tiny farmland in the middle of nowhere, but your ongoing conflict with Azerbaijan has cost you to lose the big game: your independence. You have become Putin’s vassals … oh how proud he was today in Armenia telling you guys you can buy his gas for half the price, $189! It is like throwing a bone to hungry masses and expecting licks. In the bigger contest, Azerbaijan is the winner. Thriving as a country not needing a foreign military base for protection, educating thousands young cadres in prestigious universities abroad, laying down infrastructure for generations to come … We can wait you out. Who knows, after Putin, and there will someday be “after Putin”, Russia may change its minds about you. They have done it before. And then, you are a dead meat, if not already that by then.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/166076/suffering-bulgaria-armenia-highest-worldwide.aspx
“The silly assumption you make is that for an Ataturk-like figure to emerge in Azerbaijan, he has to be a former war veteran too.”
.
Do you even know English? “Ataturk-like” means LIKE ATATURK. Ataturk was a decorated WWI general in the Ottoman military before the establishment of the Turkish National Front and the Republic of Turkey. HE WAS A GENERAL IN THE MILITARY. HE HAD A MILITARY BACKGROUND. To be “like Ataturk,” OBVIOUSLY this hypothetical Azeri leader has to have a military background. Otherwise, he won’t be like Ataturk. And considering your nations recent military history, it is unlikely you have such a figure. Unless your barometer of “war hero” is Ramil Seferov. <— This last sentence was a gibe. Gibe with a g. Not a j. <– also a gibe.
.
PS: Glendale is 30 sq. miles. Karabag and surrounded regions under Armenian control totals to 17…HUNDRED square miles. 1700 divided by 30 is, shocking, greater than 5. <– also a gibe.
cool new avatar, RVDV.
just saw it.
what’s the story.
what does the G stand for.
Avery: My alma mater UGA
@Karim, I did not say Russia helped you in Karabakh. I said the Soviet Union did. They are two different things. Unlike Russia, a nation state like many in the region, the Soviet Union was an atheistic and a communist empire, consisting of 15 republics of various nationalities, and only concerned about its vast empire and the suppression of its citizens for the sake of the empire.
Furthermore, the reason why the Soviets helped you, while they were still in power, was to try to save their corrupt empire from eventual collapse. They did not care whose side they took and who they had to attack to maintain their empire. In this particular case, they sided with you early on because the Armenians were in essence challenging their authority when they picked up arms to fight to liberate the ancient Armenian province of Karabakh under Azerbaijani occupation. This was a fight against Azerbaijani bogus administrative authority over this land and in reality taken away by force and handed to Azerbaijan by the Soviets themselves as part of the Soviet divide-and-rule policy.
In effect, even though the Armenian demands started peacefully and legally under the Soviet premier Gorbachev’s newly-introduced policy of Glasnost and Perestroika, openness and restructuring, it was still considered a major challenge and a bold move by the Armenians against the Soviet authority. The Soviet leadership engaged militarily on the Azerbaijani side, through secret deals with the late Hayder Aliyev who was a close and a former loyalist to the Soviet system, to crush the so-called Armenian “rebellion” through a military invasion, which came to be known as “operation ring”, into the Armenian-inhabited Karbakh butchering Armenian residents.
The intention of this operation was to “teach” the Armenians a lesson for undermining the Soviet authority as well as a reward to the Azerbaijani aggressors for having remained in the Soviet Union, or having delayed its departure from it depending on your point of view, as part of that secret deal between the Soviet and Azerbaijani authorities.
Karim:
I defend you, an Azerbaijani, before our distinguished compatriot and great Armenian Mr. Palandjian, throw in a good word or two, and all I get from you is more grief.
Not even a smidgen of appreciation.
I gots feelings too, you know, bro.
Anyways, back to the salt mines.
First: if I may suggest; instead of filling your posts with massive numbers of exclamation marks to make some king of an impression on me, give me some logical, rational arguments, supported by facts.
I will definitely change my position if facts stare me in the face: your “vzzzing little mosquito” friend RVDV has compelled me to change my position on a couple of occasions by presenting me with hard facts that I was able to verify. With zero exclamation marks to boot.
Regarding Putin, vassals, licks:
{“And, if you are not afraid of Azerbaijan, please do explain what is the meaning of the “security concerns” that your leadership has cited as a reason for selling yourselves to Putin’s Russia?”}
I keep explaining, Karim, but you refuse to grasp it, lost in your fantasy world of Azerbaijani make-believe superiority.
Don’t get any delusions of grandeur: security concerns refer to the country of Turkey, not Azerbaijan.
Azerbaijan’s standing Army right now is about 65,000. RoA+NKR is also about 65,000.
In theory, Azerbaijan, can raise more troops in pure numbers, owning to their larger population base.
Even assuming equal-for-equal, and that Azerbaijani soldiers will fight enthusiastically (not really), you guys simply do not have enough to overcome our defenses.
The standard formula for an invading army is to have a 3-to-1 advantage: not in people, but troops on the theater.
For mountainous terrain with deep built-in defenses, the formula is at least 5-to-1. At least.
The security concern for RoA is Turkey, not Azerbaijan.
Without Russia, RoA would have to divert scarce troops to our Western border to defend it.
Even if Turkey does not invade, all they have to do is park a large invasion Army on the border and RoA will have to in-effect fight a two-front war.
RoA+NKR can handle Azerbaijan. But we simply cannot fight a two-front war.
Turkey’s standing Army has more troops than the entire fighting age male population of RoA.
That is the ‘security concern’, not Azerbaijan.
And you trying to get a rise out of me by throwing out words like ‘vassals’, ‘licks’, etc shows how desperate you are.
RoA+NKR need time to grow strong. Armenian leadership is very wise and looking many years in the future.
Assuming, assuming we suffer a level humiliation now, in the end we will come out ahead.
Fleeting feelings of humiliation will dissipate, but we will have the permanence of strategic land depth, more infrastructure, more energy sources, better economy, larger population.
South Korea and Japan suffered overt humiliation at the hands of US for decades: they bowed down, and worked harder.
Made good use of the safety, resources, and markets provided by US, and became economically powerful.
Even today, SK and Japan are under the thumb of US as far as their foreign policy is concerned.
When US finally lets go, SK and Japan will still have their advanced economies and wealth.
Because of the advanced economy, SK is even able to produce their own military hardware.
The same thing will happen in Armenia.
(…RoA had Armenian-design, homebuilt drones in serial production 3 years ago)
What will Azerbaijan have when its oil runs out in about 5 years ?
Useless, empty glass buildings in Baku ?
10s of Billions of looted national wealth parked in Dubai ?
Or a Mrs Aliyev that looks 30 forever ?
Regarding Armenia, surveys,etc.
Every month a new meaningless survey comes up that tells another bogus story.
A couple years ago, in 2011, Forbes ranked Armenia the second worst economy in the world, just above Madagascar.
The 2nd worst. Exclamation mark.
A new survey just came out by the same Forbes. Here is their survey:
{Armenia has climbed from 77th to 64th place among 145 countries in Forbes Best Countries for Business 2013 rating.}
{Russia is 94th in the list, Georgia is 55th. Azerbaijan and Turkey are ranked 67th and 57th respectively, While Iran is 132nd.}
So does that tell you ? Nothing: surveys are bunk.
Depending on how you ask a question, and what you measure, you can come up with all sorts of fantastic, illogical results.
The fact that Forbes ranked Armenia just above Madagascar only a couple of years ago proves it was bogus.
And Karim: myself and most Armenians know and do not hide the fact that there is poverty in RoA.
We – RoA+NKR+Diaspora – openly discuss it and work together to improve the situation. Slow progress, but we _are_ making progress.
One thing for sure: unlike your pals in Baku and Azerbaijan’s military, Armenians in RoA are not eating carrion.
Eating carrion. Exclamation mark.
Regarding Turks, AzeriTatarTurks, Ataturk:
It is doubtful that the country of Azerbaijan would give birth to such a man, but even if it did, the other ingredient is simply missing in Azerbaijan.
Mustafa Kemal became Ataturk because he had Turks, or people who thought themselves as Turks, at his back – in large, cohesive numbers.
If it weren’t for the French people and the large numbers of French, which translates into large numbers of troops and large economy to support large armies, Napoleon would remain just a little unknown artillery officer.
Turks have a sense of nationalism, a sense of being Turks. And there are enough of them to make a difference. (even minus the Kurds).
Azerbaijanis themselves do not know who or what they are: one day they descended from Muslim Turkic tribes. The next day, they descended from Christian Caucasian Albanians (a misnomer, btw, but it’s OK).
I remember when I was young and dumb, we’d discuss ‘Azeris’ and Turks, and my dad would always caution me not to equate the two.
He always said that Turks are not like ‘Azeris’: they are different Turks and they fight much, much better.
Over years I became less young and less dumb, and learned myself that my father was right.
Azerbaijan is a mish-mash of non-cohesive peoples. Many of them forced to call themselves ‘Azeri’.
In another thread I already discussed the Talysh commander who fought against NKR as an Azerbaijani army officer, but who is now touring RoA and NKR to gather support for his Talysh people: support for their self-determination rights in Azerbaijan.
Don’t worry about Armenians Karim: Armenians will not start a war. Worry about the millions of indigenous peoples of Azerbaijan who want to be free of the yoke of the foreign oppressors.
Dewar Avery,
Thanks for the clarification.I knew you are much more advanced in “diplomatic” ,so to say talk, debate, to slip and grive one.
I can only hope you get to somewhat educate in-form some turco-azeris by and by…poor souls, they really need to be in-formed.Osea informado en el sentido Español-meaning, be more updated,informed really…same word meaning somewhat different in Spanish(has to meanings .One to be updated,news wise etc., the other formed-up, so to say…by now..am to firnish yet another long article re our present stance as to joining EU, or CU, or else…
best rgds,
g.p