The Empire Strikes Back, not in a science fiction movie, but in a French court!
For several years, the French-Armenian community has been trying to pass a law to penalize Armenian Genocide denial, similar to the law that sanctions Holocaust denialism. Even though the French Parliament and Senate have approved such a law, and both President Hollande and former President Sarkozy have supported it, the efforts have been aborted by powerful Turkish political and economic circles.
Turning the proposed law on its head, Sirma Oran-Martz, a French citizen of Turkish origin, had filed a lawsuit in France against Laurent Leylekian, a French-Armenian, for defamation of character. Leylekian, the former editor of “France-Armenie” magazine and former executive director of the European-Armenian Federation for Justice and Democracy, had written a sarcastic editorial titled, “Martz Attack,” for the magazine’s website, denouncing attempts to transplant Turkish denialism to French soil. Ironically, Oran-Martz is the daughter of Prof. Baskin Oran, who resides in Turkey and acknowledges the facts of the Armenian Genocide, yet without using that term, because Turkish law penalizes those who recognize the genocide.
In a shocking verdict last month, the court found Leylekian guilty, ordering him to pay a total of 7,500 euros (approximately $10,000)—4,000 euros to Oran-Martz for moral damages, and 3,500 euros for court costs, despite the latter’s evasive and irrational testimony during the proceedings.
Oran-Martz lost an earlier court case after suing Jean-Paul Bret, the mayor of Villeurbanne, who had requested that she acknowledge the Armenian Genocide before agreeing to include her on his party’s candidate list. She refused and withdrew from the race. In that verdict, the court referred to the Turkish state’s “vast program of denialism—powerful, perverse, and sophisticated,” a sentence later quoted by Leylekian in his editorial.
Three prominent individuals testified in court on Leylekian’s behalf: Francois Rochebloine, a French Parliamentarian; Yves Ternon, a renowned expert on genocide and denial; and Hilda Tchoboian, a former chairwoman of the European-Armenian Federation for Justice and Democracy. Oran-Martz was accused by Leylekian of taking part in a protest by the Turkish extremist Grey Wolves group against an Armenian Genocide monument in Lyon, France, and signing a petition against the law on genocide denial. Testifying on behalf of Oran-Martz: Murat Erpuyan, the director of the Paris-based ATA Turquie Association; Maxime Gauin, a French researcher working at a denialist think-tank in Ankara; Alain Mascarou, a retired French teacher who knew the plaintiff in Ankara; and her husband, Jean-Patrick Martz.
Hopefully, Leylekian will be vindicated when he appeals this outrageous guilty verdict. Clearly, the judge has made a mockery of French justice by siding with a genocide denialist, while punishing a descendant of Armenian Genocide victims. By condemning Leylekian for ostensibly defaming Oran-Martz in an editorial, the judge has chosen to deny him free speech, and a journalist’s right to express his views in an opinion column. Surely, the French judge knows the difference between an opinion piece and a news item! Furthermore, the judge ignored the public prosecutor’s request not to file criminal charges against Leylekian and to refrain from sentencing him.
It is ironic that while the French-Armenian community is trying to penalize genocide deniers, an Armenian is sued by a denialist Turk. This topsy-turvy state of affairs makes the best case as to why the French government should pass a law banning genocide denial.
While Oran-Martz gave incoherent answers in court, frequently irritating the judge, Leylekian provided clear, concise, and convincing arguments in his defense. This is why his guilty verdict was completely unexpected. Could it be that the long arm of Turkish influence peddling has reached into the French judicial system?
After losing her first lawsuit against the mayor of Villeurbanne three years ago, Oran-Matz vowed to continue her legal battle by announcing that this was “only the first round.” It is imperative that the verdict against Leylekian be reversed through an appeal filed by a competent, high-powered lawyer to right this miscarriage of justice and put a stop to more anti-Armenian lawsuits by Turkish denialists.
The French-Armenian community should not remain silent, but express its outrage in the strongest possible terms against this unjust verdict, and demand that the judge be disciplined for violating French laws and insulting the memory of genocide victims.
It is high time Armenians show some resolve to defend their rights in France and elsewhere, particularly on the eve of the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide!
Harut Sassounian
Information from Wikipedia 1913
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Diran Kelekian (slayed (slain) genocided by Godless Ottoman Government)
Տիրան Քէլէկեան
Born 1862
Kayseri, Ottoman Turkey
Died 1915 (aged = 53)
Çankırı, Ottoman Turkey
Occupation Journalist, editor, writer, and professor.
Diran Kelekian (Dikran Kelegian, Armenian: Տիրան Քէլէկեան, 1862, Kayseri – 1915, Çankırı) was an Ottoman Armenian journalist, writer and professor of Ottoman University (Istanbul), editor of “Cihan” (since 1883) and “Sabah” (since 1908) newspapers. Armenian Genocide victim.
He studied at Constantinople and Marseille (French Academy of Sciences), then become a lecturer at Ottoman University of Istanbul. Being the editor of “Sabah”, he also worked as a correspondent of “Daily Mail” and “Presse Associe”, published journalistic works in Turkish using Armenian letters, compiled a French–Turkish dictionary. Kelekian was arrested, deportated to Çankırı and killed.
[edit]See also
Armenian notables deported from the Ottoman capital in 1915
[edit]References
“ARMENIA: The Survival of a Nation”, revised second edition, 1990 Christopher J. Walker, Page 427
Friedrich Schrader, Politisches Leben in der Türkei: Die Neue Zeit, 1919, Jahrgang 37, Band 2, pp. 463.
This article about a Armenian journalist is a stub. You can help Wikipedia by expanding it.
“on behalf of Oran-Martz: Murat Erpuyan, the director of the Paris-based ATA Turquie Association”… Erpuyan sounds pretty much like an Armenian name
You see Harut Justice has been delivered in France. If can wait a few more months you will see another blow on you Armenians face after the Human right court delivers its verdict regarding the Turkish Labor party leader
There is also the complaint recently filed by two Azerbaijanis for assault, in Paris. There are represented by two lawyers, including the one who won the court case against Laurent Leylekian and my proper case against Movsès Nissanian, in 2010. The other one won last year a complicated case where the opposite side was represented by Richard Malka. When you win a complicated case against Richard Malka, you must be a good lawyer, not say very good. And, as Mr. Sassounian himself guesses, that’s not all.
Complaints were also filed by the Armenian victims against the two Azerbaijanis for infiltrating the invitation-only affair on false pretenses, disrupting the private affair, and assaulting the French Armenian victims at the event.
And we are still waiting for Mr. Gauin to sue TodaysZaman for libel and defamation: TodaysZaman claims Mr. Gauin is an intelligence agent and has maintained website that lobbies on behalf of Turks.
This is what TodaysZaman claimed on 30 March 2012:
{The news website has a policy of opposing the Armenian claims of genocide. “This website is officially administered by one of our esteemed intelligence officials. Upon our order our employee has gone against the education in history he received and lobbies in favor of the Turks. His education in history strengthens his ties with the Turks. He is now serving as an intern at a nationalist think tank in Ankara. Thanks to his efforts, we learn the working principles of our Turkish colleagues and their attitude toward opponents in France — mainly Armenians and Kurds,” says the report.}
{Sources told Today’s Zaman on condition of anonymity that the intelligence official in question is historian and researcher Maxime Gauin, who has written books against Armenian claims of genocide. He is currently an intern at the International Strategic Research Organization (USAK) in Ankara.}
Since Mr. Gauin has denied the TZ claim, he should be suing TZ for libel and defamation: Non ?
Maybe Mr. Gauin should hire the very capable Richard Malka to represent him against TodaysZaman.
Any day now.
What was Leylekian specifically alleged to have said about the Plaintiff? It cannot be determined from the article what her defamation claim was based upon.
{“Oran-Martz was accused by Leylekian of taking part in a protest by the Turkish extremist Grey Wolves group against an Armenian Genocide monument in Lyon, France, and signing a petition against the law on genocide denial.”}
Truth is an absolute defense against charges of libel and defamation.
Does Mr. Leylekian have photos of Oran-Martz at the AG monument ? Any other evidence she participated ?
Isn’t the petition public record ? Is her signature on the petition ?
If both are true, then there is no case (at least in the US).
If false, then it will be tough for Mr. Leylekian.
Mr. Leylekian must have known that Oran-Martz was litigious, so if he made those accusations with no hard proof, very sloppy of him.
If he has proof, then the judge has some personal bias or worse.
{“By condemning Leylekian for ostensibly defaming Oran-Martz in an editorial, the judge has chosen to deny him free speech, and a journalist’s right to express his views in an opinion column”}
Appeal to “free speech” is a dead end: Turks and their Turcophile allies use the same “free speech” argument against the Armenian Genocide Denial bill.
We can’t continue underestimating Turks and their Turcophile allies.
We can’t afford to get sloppy.
French Armenians and their French allies worked hard for years and both French National Assembly and Senate passed the AG Denial bill overwhelmingly. Overwhelmingly.
Yet Turks and their allies short-circuited all that work via the few members of the Constitutional Court who were Turcophiles and/or had commercial ties to Turkish interests.
http://armenianweekly.com/2012/03/06/sassounian-the-constitutional-councils-scandalous-rejection-of-french-genocide-bill/
{The Constitutional Council is a hodge-podge of 11 retired individuals of various backgrounds. It includes two French presidents, two judges, three legislators, and four government officials. A major controversy erupted when a French newspaper revealed that several members of the council, including its chairman, had serious conflict of interest problems in reaching a fair decision. Some had made prejudicial statements on this issue while serving in the legislature; others have business ties with Turkey; and most shockingly, one of them, Hubert Haenel, is a member of the Bosphorus Institute, a French-Turkish think-tank that lobbied against the genocide denial bill!}
Maybe we can learn some things from Turks: they play dirty and do whatever it takes to win: we keep hallucinating that truth and justice will prevail on their own somehow.
Armenian Diaspora has to make a choice: where and how to deploy its finite resources. Despite their geopolitical differences, Turks and Azeris have learned from their mistakes, are coordinating their Anti Armenian campaigns, and have scored successes recently. We are still as divided as before and are working against each other, or at cross purposes.
Jewish Diaspora has no diasporan political parties, therefore they have neither the incentive nor the urge to interfere in the internal political affairs of Israel. Their single minded focus is protecting Israel from any threat, real or imaginary, and working day and night to weaken or outright dismember countries that challenge Israel.
Maybe we can learn a thing or two from the Jewish Diaspora: instead of wasting time on useless community meetings at a Glendale church to protest election results in RoA, how about a community meeting titled “What Lessons Can We Learn from the Jewish Diaspora and How to Emulate Their Successful Methods”.
Let citizens of Armenia and NKR handle the local politics: the new generations are smart enough, fearless enough and politically astute enough to do it themselves. They don’t need Diaspora’s “help”.
Our job in the Diaspora should be unconditional love and support for RoA and NKR, and unrelenting single-minded focus and campaign against the external enemies of both.
Avery, I am continously impressed by your realistic and highly educated point of view. It’s always a breath of fresh air to read your comments and I look forward to them more than the articles themselves. You strike a cord with your critique of the current methods the Diaspora employs in aiding the homeland. Jews are the perfect example, even though we can never be as effective as them, given that they’ve infeltrated most major public institutions and power structures. But granted all that intelligence and talent that we’re so quick to proclaim, our efforts look like something a junior AYF member drew up overnight. It is time to give up the time, human resource, and money wasting games like futile protests and community gatherings. These are village tactics, we need to act like an empire. Get into attack mode, stop being reactionary, instead, among other things, crush every opposing force – politically, financially, morally. Dig up dirt on Turko-Azeri organizations operating within Europe which seek to undermine Armenian relations with said contries. Investigate funding sources, activities, etc, and get them shut down at the smallest infringement you find (I assure you there are many illegal activities). Make Turkish companies fail in their business, these are major funding sources for said organizations. Drop the megaphone, and pick up the knife. Metaphorically speaking of course, I’m not advocating violence.
And now for the most important but I suspect a bit controversial step – fuel the fires of Islamophobia and anti-Turkishness, especially in Europe, where we have a closer kinship and Turks are a much more real threat than in faraway USA. Make this a fight between the larger Western world and the invading East – spearheaded by the Turk’s hunger for a new Ottoman empire. Stoke the animosity within the European population. This is not hateful or dirty, the Turks surely deserve it for all they’ve done and continue to do against European civilization. Make these countires realize Armenia as an important ally against this expansionist and foreign people at their doorsteps, who have already began to demographically conquer Germany and others.
Shall we all get circumcised as part of “emulating the Jews?”
Jews are successful because they have a state that is responsive to the Jews’ needs and works with the Jewish diaspora. The Armenian state, on the other hand, sabotages the efforts of the Armenian diaspora every chance it gets. We fight for recognition of Genocide, Serzh signs the Protocols, which is used by the U.S. administration as an excuse delay the recognition for the sake of “normalization of relations.” We push Obama not to avoid recognition by saying “Mets Yegern,” and Serzh praises him. Jews have a real state. We have an usurped state, where the authorities try to please the foreign powers instead of responding to the demands of the people. All because Serzh lacks legitimacy. Which is a direct result of lack of democracy in Armenia. Which we, concerned Armenians, are trying to fix.
Armenia should lead the worldwide efforts to advance the Armenian Cause. That was our hope and dream when we witnessed the rebirth of Armenia. Instead, it’s doing precisely the opposite.
The Jews are not smarter than Armenians. As I have said before, there is nothing wrong with the Armenian people. There is something terribly wrong with the state of Armenia. I am sure the new generation in Armenia is smart enough to rule it. If only they were allowed to. So far, they are not.
you support Mr. Hovannisian, Yes ?
you write {” We fight for recognition of Genocide, Serzh signs the Protocols, “}
you write {” We push Obama not to avoid recognition by saying “Mets Yegern,” and Serzh praises him.}
do you know that Mr. Hovannisian has used a phrase in an official letter to Pres Gul that is tantamount to Denial of the Armenian Genocide ?
Have you and those in your camp ever criticized Mr. Hovannisian for practically denying the AG with the same vitriol that you guys criticize duly elected President of Armenia for saying “Mets Yegern,” ?
And BarevaMoonies have a strange concept of Democracy: definition of Democracy is 50%+1 rules; President Sargsyan smashed your candidate 58% to 37% – a landslide 21 point mandate for Pres Sargsyan to stay the course.
And you can get circumcised if you like: your choice.
Obviously that is the extent of your understanding of what the phrase “emulating Jews” means.
If only those figures were credible, your arguments would make some sense. Why, oh why can’t the official government figures from Armenian be credible.
What is it exactly that Raffi said that you feel so obsessed about over and over? Are you referring to the fact that he used “deportations?” There is a huge difference between that, and how Serzh backstabbed the Diasporan efforts. Raffi does not have to use the term Genocide all the time, as long as he uses it most of the time. Serzh, on the other hand, defended Obama’s used of Mets Yeghern instead of genocide–it was a direct hit against the Diaspora’s efforts. The fact that you are equating the two shows your understanding of the issue.
anyone who thinks the expression “Medz Yeghern” is worse than the expression Mr. Hovannisian used in his infamous letter to Pres Gul is beyond the reach of logical argument.
Perhaps. Of course noone has said that saying Mets Yeghern is worse than saying deportation. “Deportation” and “Yeghern” are not prohibited words, as long as the user does not use them exclusively instead of “Genocide.” The Diaspora accused Obama for using “Mets Yeghern” exclusively instead of “Genocide.” The Diaspora has spent great efforts to convince Obama not to do so. Serzh defended Obama in total disregard of the Diaspora’s efforts. Anyone not seeing this is obsessed with Serzh’s regime beyond any reason.
If the alleged defamation was Leylekian’s allegation that she participated in some fascist event, then the truth or falsity of the AG should not have been litigated, which I infer took place to some degree from the witness lists.
Harut – what was the actual alleged defamation?
Mr. Gauin is quite touchy about us. I recommend reading about him, but with antacids. I think he has darkened these pages recently.
Is there an english version of the court decision online somewhere? I’d like to see how the judge came to the decision.
can someone please enlighten me about why everything about Turks is bizarre and most shocking from Armenian point of view but only from Armenian point of view not from anyone else?
Turkish cowboy john the vain,the answer is because your ancestors committed Genocide & stole our homeland of 4000 years.That’s enough of enlightenment for today.
It’s pretty disrespectful to the French legal system to insinuate that they are being bought out by Turkish lobby (when you have absolutely zero evidence of this) every time they side with a Turk or Turkey. Speaking of free speech, French law prohibits slander.
Yeah sure, and it is pretty respectful and “egalitarian” for the “French legal system” to hold Jews and Armenians to different standards for prosecution genocide denial by the same “legal system”, right?
well said Avery!
RVDV:
Do you think a Constitutional Court judge that is going to decide on a law that is very strongly opposed by Turkey and Turkish commercial interests should be on the panel, if he is a member of a Turkish NGO ?
What do you call a French Senator who is a member of a Turkish industry association sitting on a judicial panel that will decide what is perceived as Anti Turkish law (perceived, not “is”). I call him biased. Pro-Turkish. A plant.
Money does not need to change hands for someone to be ‘bought’, does it ?
Don’t you think in the interest of fairness all members of the constitutional court who had any ties to Turks or Armenians should have recused themselves from deliberating on the law ?
You think Turks would have accepted French MP Valérie Boyer on that panel ?
And, yeah: Senator Hubert Haenel is a member of the Turkish Bosphorus Institute. If that is not a conflict of interest and completely taints the decision of the French Constitutional Court, don’t know what is.
And is anyone denying that this statement is true: {A major controversy erupted when a French newspaper revealed that several members of the council, including its chairman, had serious conflict of interest problems in reaching a fair decision. Some had made prejudicial statements on this issue while serving in the legislature; others have business ties with Turkey; and most shockingly, one of them, Hubert Haenel, is a member of the Bosphorus Institute, a French-Turkish think-tank that lobbied against the genocide denial bill}.
http://www.tusiad.org/interaction/contribution-to-turkeys-promotion/institut-du-bosphore/
scroll down to Scientific Committee Members.
[Hubert HAENEL
Senator
President of the french Senate European Affairs committee]
Dear Avery,
Pray tell me why do you bring in R.Hovanissian in a discussion/debate that has as its centre Mr. laurent Leylekian and Oran martz etc., One issue has no beaaring on the other.Stick to the topic that reads French court´s verdict(unjust) on the former who has vehemently defended our CAUSE?
if it is O.K. to mix up one topic w/another,then git a load of this(very latest) NOW ….ONLY A FEW MINUTES AGO…ON THE H1 RA,state T.V. channel….showing a Fleet of aircraft(Turkish) that aare there to take Armenian Toruists to their (Badmagan) Historic land…..and Armenian businessmen who have apparently given the green light to thus,aside conducting illegal business(when two countries have closed borders …. A ND NO RECIPROCAL DIP’LOMATIC RELATIONS….are beginning such ¨sugar coated¨ relations.Is this in onformity with International Law.Latter is not my field of profession but I can fathom that when there are no such relations and actually their other state(according to the highest authority of great Turkey, pres. Gul, we are and I quote ¨ONE NATION in TWO States¨) they have now begun once again to YAVASH YAVASH,,by and by try to get our Paremid(kind minded,not to say Barzamid(simple minded) BIZ sector,which indeed has green light from RA Authorities to begin such undesired,shall we say relations.Thus doing indeed to sidestep the official and PERMANENT DESIRE AND DECISION OF ALL ARMENIANS WHO are not tobe taken in by such maneuvrings….and get some ¨¨Esh hayer¨¨as the youngman in Yerevan expressed himself when we together saw sign promoting travel to Antalya!!!!!!
Oh come on Avery,Serge is one day out to Moscow to confer with Putin(with no tangible results…say ask him to GET THE EX SOVIET FACTORIES,SITTING PRETTY AND IDLE RENEWED AND RESTARTED WITH HUGE OIL AND GAS REVENUES….AND THIS as appreciation of the over 200,000 Armenian martyrs for the HAIRENAGAN WAR(fatherland war) and another day to elesewhere. What can we expect from a man that believes by his freidnly visits -without end results-as described is he good for our Tiny republic ,suffering from CHRONIC POVERTY .
No,I don´t think you are being impartial.Raffi ,we all know did not could garner more than 5/% or 6% votes, but a huge majority people(not counting those over a million that one of our own participants here with our daily debates expressed,THOSE WHO LEFT THE COUNTRY FOR BREAD…then it goes to show that the majority of the people in RA are fed up.But wait,who said RAffi would be (if confirmed as pres.) doing it alone like a dictator…he most probably would choose the right cabinet and parliament members would be elected for thier MERITS AS I ADVOCATE NOT FOR THEIR MONIES OR CONNECTIONS!!!!!
Addendum,
Near forgot….I know Laurent Leylekian, some 5/6 yrs ago he called me long distance and talked to me re our Affaits…apatriot no doubt…
and don´t be surprized..I am one that either myself voluntarily participate in armenian affairs gatherings, etc., or they contact me.Am the FREE LANCE one.My viewpoints include RESPECT TO ALL ARMENIAN POLITICAL PARTIES ESTABLISHMENTS.Get to know a bit of even small ones.But then MAIN OBJECTIVE I CHERISH IS NOT JUST FREEDOM for Hayastan,independence included, but RE collect regain recover liberate all of our lands FORCIBLY TAKEN FROM US AND OUR people EVICTED FROM AGES ODL HABITAT!!!
yesterday I wrote here re my meeting and talking to an Israel who delivered a discourse in a Jewish Chapter of one of their org. then I also made it clear to him that INDEED YOU MAY WISH THE HOLOCAUST TO BE AS UNIQUE…but ours is EVICTION FROM OWN L A N D S ///HOMES.
Only REAL asset so to speak for us that is REAL ASSET PROPERTY A HUGE ONE AT THAT IS WESTERN ARMENIA…
But again I inisit (in order to get there first to PROVE BLOOD SHED…
once we get compensation ,after recognition, IN BLOOD MONEY.that will facilitate all others
Avery
Gaytzag is right. Why do you bring in Mr. Hovanissian’s name out of the blue here whereas the person whom you are addressing has never mentioned his name or even hinted at him? I have a lot of respect for your standpoints, but doesn’t this show your knee-jerk like reaction at hearing Mr. Hovanissian’s name? You know I am not a big fan of Hovanissian, but I find your judgments on him already extremistic.
Also when you compare Israel and Armenia, that there are no Jewish Diasporan political parties etc., consider too place Diasporan Jews have in the politics of Isral which is a far cry to that of Armenia.
Above all this, human rights is a universal issue and if people are expected to raise their voice against suppression of human rights in countries far away, which is only human, how can you prevent them – in this case Diasporan Armenians- to shut up and keep silent about what happens in a country which they consider closest to them?
Arshag:
I will address your concerns in a little while.
(the usual thorough background research on the subject matter)
VTiger; Your comment: “…the answer is because your ancestors committed Genocide & stole our homeland of 4000 years.”
May I please finish off this sentence by adding: ” and continue to deny, in order to evade accountability, thereby perpetuating the actions of their forebears.
Vahagan: Let us not only look at Jewish strategy, but also at Turk strategy of coercion. On another post, in speaking about being invited to Turkey, naes writes “…and the meals and the attention they gave to me certainly made its impact.” Apparently shish kebab diplomacy works. Let’s take it to a much higher level and invite those in the Papal court to RoA and give them a sample of real shish kebab and melon. Let us remind them that the shish kebab the Turks are seducing foreigners with are the progeny of lambs they stole from our barns and fields after they murdered our people. The new Pope has the ear of over a billion faithful throughout the world. Let’s ask him to again tell his people that it was Genocide.
Gaytzag; I stand firmly with you in wanting the return of our land. I know exactly where my grandfather’s sheep grazed. I want what’s left returned to me, and I want to be compensated for the use of my land and the loss of my sheep and oxen. I want the accumulated wealth its use has generated over the years. I will want it until I die. And I have made clear to my descendants that they are to continue the demand for accountability. And I don’t want to hear again from any denier on these pages who asks what I will do with my property if I succeed in having it returned. It’s none of their business what I do with it. It’s mine.
Avery; many thanks for taking the time to post your sage comments to RVDV. Let’s see if any of it penetrates and he acknowledges it.
Some remarks:
1) Harout Sassounian makes no comment about the content of Laurent Leylekian’s article (http://www.france-armenie.fr/editorial/edito01b-2010.pdf ), or about the content of the judgment itself.
2) Mr. Sassounian makes no comment about the French jurisprudence, and he is so unaware of the French law that he ignores that there was not one judge, but three. Any defamation court case is judged in France by three magistrate, never by one.
3) No comment, too, about the content of the testimonies. Similarly, it is more easy to say that I work “for a denialist think-tank” than discuss my arguments.
4) Mr. Sassounian fails to explain to his readers (but does he know this?) that Mr. Leylekian destroyed himself the basis of his lawyer’s argumentation, answering to the presiding judge that the editorial was actually not a part of a debate between Ms. Oran-Martz and himself.
5) By the way, Laurent Leylekian’s lawyer is a former barrister of Paris.
In conclusion, to say the very least, this kind of reaction does not help Mr. Leylekian.
Instead of playing barrister with Mr. Sassounian, why don’t you play barrister with the Turkish editors of Turkish TodaysZaman and sue Turkish TodaysZaman for libel and defamation ?
You claim what they state is false: isn’t that grounds for a lawsuit for libel and defamation ?
Or you are loath to sue Turks, because, you know, you work for an organization called USAK ? A Turkish organization centered in Ankara, Turkey.
Its only a matter of time. Its only going to get worse for Turkish historical revision peddlers. Are Armenians going to win every time? nope. The mere fact that the French almost passed the anti AG denial law this time shows that yes, it is only a matter of time. Can’t hide your peoples crime forever.
PS. France still does rightfully acknowledge the Armenian Genocide.
@ John. You missed the point.
http://www.conseil-constitutionnel.fr/conseil-constitutionnel/english/case-law/decision/decision-no-2012-647-dc-of-28-february-2012.114637.html
“5. Considering, on the other hand, that Article 11 of the Declaration of Man and the Citizen of 1789 provides: “The free communication of ideas and opinions is one of the most precious of the rights of man. every citizen may, accordingly, speak, write, and print with freedom, but shall be responsible for such abuses of this freedom as shall be defined by law”; that Article 34 of the Constitution provides: “Statutes shall determine the rules concerning… civic rights and the fundamental guarantees granted to citizens for the exercise of their civil liberties”; that on this basis, Parliament is at liberty to enact rules regulating the exercise of the right of free communication, freedom of speech (including the written word) and freedom of the press; that it is also at liberty on this basis to establish criminal offences punishing the abuse of the exercise of the freedom of expression and communication which cause disruption to public order and the rights of third parties; that nonetheless, freedom of expression and communication is all the more precious since its exercise is a precondition for democracy and one of the guarantees of respect for other rights and freedoms; that the restrictions imposed on the exercise of this freedom must be necessary, appropriate and proportional having regard to the objective pursued;
6. Considering that a legislative provision having the objective of “recognising” a crime of genocide would not itself have the normative scope which is characteristic of the law; that nonetheless, Article 1 of the law referred punishes the denial or minimisation of the existence of one or more crimes of genocide” recognised as such under French law”; that in thereby punishing the denial of the existence and the legal classification of crimes which Parliament itself has recognised and classified as such, Parliament has imposed an unconstitutional limitation on the exercise of freedom of expression and communication; that accordingly, without any requirement to examine the other grounds for challenge, Article 1 of the law referred must be ruled unconstitutional; that Article 2, which is inseparably linked to it, must also be ruled unconstitutional,
HELD :
Article 1. – The Law on the punishment of denials of the existence of genocides recognised by law is unconstitutional.
Article 2. – This decision shall be published in the Journal officiel of the French Republic.
Deliberated by the Constitutional Council in its session of 28 February 2012, sat on by: Mr Jean-Louis DEBRÉ, President, Mr Jacques BARROT, Ms Claire BAZY MALAURIE, Mr Guy CANIVET, Mr Michel CHARASSE, Mr Renaud DENOIX de SAINT MARC, Mr Valéry GISCARD d’ESTAING and Mr Pierre STEINMETZ.”
It is very clear that:
a) The decision was taken is the name of the Déclaration des droits de l’homme (1789).
b) “A legislative provision having the objective of “recognising” a crime of genocide would not itself have the normative scope which is characteristic of the law,” which is a clear warning, understood even by Hilda Tchoboian.
You seem unaware that the limitation statute for the defamation case in France is only three month (one year for defamation motivated by racism). If somebody repeats this defamatory allegation about me on the French soil, of course, I will consider a court case.
You seem unaware that you work in Turkey, not France.
USAK is located in Ankara, Turkey – is it not ?
You seem unaware that TodaysZaman is a Turkish news site, not French.
What does France’s statute of limitations have to do with Turkey and TodaysZaman ?
I do not know what the statute of limitations is in Turkey for libel; But I do know people get sued in Turkey for libel and defamation all day long (see below).
Whatever it is – 3 months, 6 months, 12 months – the question stands:
TodaysZaman published their story March 30, 2012.
You were aware of it because you denied it and TZ added your denial to their article – but did Not retract their allegation.
You had plenty of time: so why didn’t you sue TZ for libel and defamation before the statute of limitations ran out in Turkey, if it did ?
Not France, Not USA, Not Timbuktu – Türkiye. Is it possible TodaysZaman is right and you did not want the truth to come out in a Turkish court of law under cross examination ?
You didn’t seriously think I would buy your lame excuse, do you ?
Nice try Gauin-oglu, but no cigar this time: try something more plausible; might work.
——-
I am sure you know about these, since you work in Turkey at USAK.
But just in case it slipped your notice:
[PM files libel case against Taraf’s Altan over cancer report controversy]
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-273776-pm-files-libel-case-against-tarafs-altan-over-cancer-report-controversy.html
[Erdoğan sues CHP, Kılıçdaroğlu over insults]
http://www.todayszaman.com/newsDetail_getNewsById.action?load=detay&link=226176
1.Maxime Gauin
5/17/2012 12:06:51 PM
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/Default.aspx?pageID=449&nID=20634&NewsCatID=396
‘Since 1986, Turks found thousands of skeletons of Muslims killed by Armenians in Anatolia, from 1915 to 1918.1
2.Maxime Gauin
February 21, 2013
http://armenianweekly.com/2013/02/12/sassounian-genocide-is-the-right-word-justice-is-the-ultimate-goal/comment-page-2/#comments
”There is no doubt that a massacre of Christians took place close to Mardin in July 1915″
I still will always call you a deranged 3rd class mercenary/academic.
If you consider the above as racist defamation & baseless,go & sue me wherever you want.
@ Maxime you missed my point:
over the last 30 years the Turkish facade, or some would say, collective amnesia, wasn’t as full of holes as it it is today. Armenians didn’t have the organization and effort and clout we do now…and Its only getting bigger as this will never end. Its only a matter of time. .Also there is no statute of limitation on mass murder sweety.
BTW, don’t hate our efforts for rightful justice. It gives denialist peddlers like you a job. You should thank us instead..
Avery,
Your other informative posts notwithstanding, in this case my agreement is with the posters Vahagn and Gaytzag.
When you say “Our job in the Diaspora should be unconditional love and support for RoA and NKR” I agree with you in theory, but not in practice. We put that theory into practice for 70 + 20 years. After the twenty years I think the time is approaching for the opposite to be true in fact. It should be Armenia at the hands of the “elected” government to show its unconditional love and support to the diaspora instead. Twenty years has shown us that our unconditional love and support for Armenia yields empty and in fact negative results.
The government of Armenia has sat back and watched our women move to Turkey and the men to Russia in droves. Diaspora business people who have gone there to help in the Armenian economy have been ripped off and returned. Without dialogue with the diaspora, the government goes and signs protocols with Turkey, undermining the efforts of the diaspora. Is this the Armenia we must unconditionally love and support?
You did say correctly that “maybe we can learn some things from Turks”. When the EU does anything considered “hostile” or “anti-Turkish” to any Turks in their realm the government of Turkey makes the biggest stink in the world and does not tolerate their actions for one second. Yes, we definitely can learn a thing or two from the Turks. The government of Turkey has long ago figured out that a nation’s strength is in its people.
Serjh had done his job with foreign relations correctly, but has failed in uniting all Armenians and putting us all on one plane. This should be the task of every Armenian ‘elected’ government, whether it is Raffi or Serjh or anyone else. We are acting like we have such a large, complex nation… we don’t. We realize we cannot jeopardize our relations with Russia, but that is when a real politician needs to step in and continue our same foreign relations and act as a sovereign patriot instead of a servant to do the right thing for our population.
Giligiatsi:
I agree with many points you raise in your post.
I have previously discussed RoA and Pres Sargsyan’s successes and shortcomings elsewhere at length, so no need to repeat here.
The non-cooperation between RoA and Diaspora in many things is not the fault of RoA alone. Diaspora has made mistakes also. Lots to discuss there, but I am not going to do our dirty laundry in public.
Arshag:
Thanks for the kind words re my viewpoints.
On me bringing up Mr. Hovannisian: if you follow the chain of posts, starting from my original which discussed Mr. Leylekian, you will see that poster Vahagn brought up ‘Serzh’ – President Sargsyan – first. In the second part of same post I segued for an overall strategy of what I believe we in the Diaspora should concentrate our efforts on. I did note the event at the Glendale church as an example of waste of finite Diaspora resources.
However, I mentioned neither President Sargsyan nor Mr. Hovannissian.
But when an advocate for Mr. Hovannisian injects President Sargsyan out of the blue, then I can bring up Mr. Hovannisian.
Do you agree or disagree that an advocate of RH is the one who first injected President Sargsyan’s name into this thread ?
And doesn’t bringing up Pres Sargsyan open the door for me to bring up Hovannisian ?
You may be right in one respect: I am getting really annoyed with RH by now, and that annoyance may be leaking into my writing.
I believe Mr. Hovannisian’s post-election actions at this point are harming Armenia’s international image and giving ammunition to her enemies who are continuously working to weaken her and her civil institutions. I don’t believe for a minute that Mr. Hovannisian has that intent, but the effect is the same.
Some examples:
{“…The leader of the ruling party is in a stalemate, with his forgery and violations,” he noted. “I don’t have anything more to say to the authorities. If Sargsyan has any suggestions, let him come to the Liberty Square and tell us about them. I will listen to him and decide whether to accept or decline them,” Hovannisian added.} (March 13, 2013)
{After the OSCE Minsk Group countries congratulated Serzh Sargsyan on his victory in the presidential elections, “after these shameful and rigged elections,” he is not recognizing the authority of OSCE Minsk Group, opposition leader said during a rally of his supporters in Liberty Square. “Let them do what they want, but they no longer have anything to do with Armenia or Karabakh,” he said.} (March 08, 2013 )
{Presidents must be elected. They must no be appointed, Raffi Hovannisian said during his rally in Noyemberyan town of Tavush Region, Armenian News-NEWS.am correspondent reported. After the de facto leadership announces resignation, new leadership will be elected, he emphasized. “Our work is to make people return to Armenia,” he said, promising that his actions will not fall short of expectations. “I am telling Mr. Putin, Obama, Hollande, Barroso: we respect you and value good relations with Russia, the U.S. and France. But Armenian people are the owners of the Armenian land. And let no one, whether he is a citizen of Armenia or a foreigner, play with the will of the Armenian people,” said Hovannisian, who is condemning the world leaders for their congratulations to Serzh Sargsyan.} (March 06, 2013)
“forgery”, “let him come to Liberty Square”, “presidents must not be appointed”, “not recognizing Minsk Group” (exactly what Azerbaijan and Turks want, btw), “condemning world leaders”, etc.
Do people who support RH disagree that those public statements are counterproductive and potentially harmful to RoA ?
Regarding: {“.. how can you prevent them – to shut up and keep silent..”}
Obviously I can neither prevent action, nor shut up, nor force silence on anyone. My suggestion is that we in the Diaspora concentrate our finite resources on RoA’s external enemies, who are becoming more effective every year in causing harm to RoA and NKR. I believe RoA’s own citizens are quite capable of effecting internal change on their own.
this is what I am talking about:
[EPP President is shocked by Armenian ex-presidential candidate’s criticism]
http://news.am/eng/news/144548.html
M. Gauin, est-ce que vous éprouvez la même désapprobation pour la loi qui condamne le négationisme ou la minimisation de l’Holocauste que vous éprouvez pour la loi concernant le génocide arménien ?
Quelle est la différence entre les deux ?
Si vous tentez d’assurer que la liberté d’expression ne soit jamais tranchée en France, vous devez également essayer de rendre la loi sur l’Holocauste déclarée inconstitutionnelle, n’est-ce pas ?
Et ne commençons pas sur la code pénale de la Turquie…
Je patiente.
There is no law in France on the “minimisation de la Shoah”. Such a law would be censored by the Constitutional Council, since nobody can say clearly what is “minimisation”. The Gayssot act is based only on the authority of res judicata and you cannot find the words “Jews” and “genocide” in this text. http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000000532990
Tres bien dit Alex.Il faut que Monsieur GAuin fait contact avec professeur Yves Ternont…
Giliigiatsi and Avery….. Interesting topic…how is our commitment to Armenia must be unwavering to,the institution ….RoA and NKR. As President , Sargsyan is the beneficiary of some of some that institutional respect. It is not possible to separate fully the individual and the office fully. This is one of the risks for what is now happening in Liberty Square. When we call for “regime change” , we must be certain that the respect for the institution remains intact. The absence of such leads to political/societal chaos and we have plenty of current examples of that dilemma. Our people’s democratic evolution must include respect for institutions. It is a fundamental element to progressive change. Do that give the establishment an “advantage” or slow the process? Probably, but we must ensure that the country survives the required change.
Giligiatsi’s comment on the diaspora is right on. There are not many examples where the diaspora an play an important and supporting role. The Jewish diaspora and Israel since the late 40’s is a clear example. Some diasporas are estranged from the current government of their country or are unable to play an active role. We have a great opportunity. It requires humility on the part of the diaspora to understand our role and leadership from the homeland to keep the bonds strong. It is tragic for an Armenian to feel estranged from RoA because of economic, political or social reasons. We all share in this responsibility.
{“ The Gayssot act is based only on the authority of res judicata and you cannot find the words “Jews” and “genocide” in this text.”} (Gauin
March 16, 2013 @AW)
Indeed, the words “Jew”, “Genocide”, “Holocaust” do not appear in The Gayssot Act. Quite amazing then that two Frenchmen were convicted for denying the Jewish Holocaust under that very same law.
{2.5 Shortly after the enactment of the “Gayssot Act”, Mr. Faurisson was interviewed by the French monthly magazine Le Choc du Mois, which published the interview in its Number 32 issue of September 1990. Besides expressing his concern that the new law constituted a threat to freedom of research and freedom of expression, the author reiterated his personal conviction that there were no homicidal gas chambers for the extermination of Jews in Nazi concentration camps. Following the publication of this interview, eleven associations of French resistance fighters and of deportees to German concentration camps filed a private criminal action against Mr. Faurisson and Patrice Boizeau, the editor of the magazine Le Choc du Mois. By judgment of 18 April 1991, the 17th Chambre Correctionnelle du Tribunal de Grande Instance de Paris convicted Messrs. Faurisson and Boizeau of having committed the crime of “contestation de crimes contre l’humanité” and imposed on them fines and costs amounting to FF 326,832.}
{2.6 The conviction was based, inter alia, on the following Faurisson statements: “… No one will have me admit that two plus two make five, that the earth is flat, or that the Nuremberg Tribunal was infallible. I have excellent reasons not to believe in this policy of extermination of Jews or in the magic gas chamber …” “I would wish to see that 100 per cent of all French citizens realize that the myth of the gas chambers is a dishonest fabrication (‘est une gredinerie’), endorsed by the victorious powers of Nuremberg in 1945-46 and officialized on 14 July 1990 by the current French Government, with the approval of the ‘court historians'”.}
{2.7 The author and Mr. Boizeau appealed their conviction to the Court of Appeal of Paris (Eleventh Chamber). On 9 December 1992, the Eleventh Chamber, under the Presidency of Mrs. Françoise Simon, upheld the conviction and fined Messrs. Faurisson and Boizeau a total of FF 374,045.50. This sum included compensation for immaterial damage to the eleven plaintiff associations.}
UN Human Rights Committee upheld the verdict in 1996.
Communication No 550/1993 : France. 12/16/1996.
CCPR/C/58/D/550/1993. (Jurisprudence)
[Faurisson was charged again in a trial on 11 July 2006. He was accused of denying the Holocaust in an interview with the Iranian television station “Sahar 1” in February 2005. On 3 October 2006, he was given a three-month probationary sentence and fined €7,500 for this offence.[11][12] In December 2006, Faurisson gave a speech at the International Conference to Review the Global Vision of the Holocaust, which was sponsored by the government of Iran. He repeated his theories about gas chambers and said that for the past 32 years, he has been waiting for someone to show him just one of those chambers.](from Wiki)
Maybe Mr. Gauin can demonstrate his trust in his very capable barristers by publicly denying the Jewish Holocaust in France, and see what happens (since “Jew”, “Genocide”, “Holocaust” do not appear in The Gayssot Act.)
Here is a suggestion: use this sentence publicly in France: “….both the Jewish Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide are myths…I challenge French authorities to charge me under the Gayssot Act.”
And we are still waiting for Mr. Gauin to explain why he did not sue Turkish TodaysZaman for libel and defamation.
His lame attempt to deflect the query and blame his inaction on France’s statute of limitations is too comical to take seriously.
Reminder: TodaysZaman published this, in part, on March 30, 2012: {“Sources told Today’s Zaman on condition of anonymity that the intelligence official in question is historian and researcher Maxime Gauin, who has written books against Armenian claims of genocide. He is currently an intern at the International Strategic Research Organization (USAK) in Ankara.”}
Despite Mr. Guain’s denial, TodaysZaman has Not retracted their claim.
Avery
I will come back to your response in other pages since the topic of this page is not Hovanissian or Sarkissian.
Fine Arshag:
But you should address your admonition to poster Vahagn first.
I am not the one who first injected “Serzh”.
Did he inject the name of Pres Sargsyan into this thread first: Yes or No ?
And I am not the one who injected the elections in Armenia and Diaspora’s need to keep away from that issue. On a page that had nothing to do with the elections. When you bring up the elections out of blue, don’t be surprised if someone brings up Serzh.
someone whose fertile imagination equates my phase {“Learn from the Jewish Diaspora and How to Emulate Their Successful Methods”} to the borderline Anti Semitic phrase {‘Shall we all get circumcised as part of “emulating the Jews?” ‘} is certainly capable of using a general comment about elections to launch into a pent up diatribe against President Sargsyan.
The tell of his irrational hatred of President Sargsyan is the fact the “Medz Yegern” , uttered by President Sargsyan, is apparently a greater sin than the AG denialist phrase the BarevaMessiah used in his 2007 letter to Turkish President Gul.
Clearly, Barevacadres are hysterical that Mr. Hovannisian was crushed by a 21 point margin in a fair, open, democratic election with a healthy 60% turnout.
Clearly, Barevacadres are hysterical that world-power leaders lined up to congratulate President Sargsyan on his re-election, and while President Sargsyan is meeting with newly elected Pope Frances in the Vatican, their BarevaMessiah is wallowing in self-pity on a bench in a Yerevan park.
What must be even more galling is the massive loss despite the reasonable possibility that Mr. Hovannisian’s supporters may have stuffed ballots and stolen votes.
That conjecture being based on the following facts:
Pre-election polls by 6 different organizations gave Raffi Hovannisian an average of 20%, with highest being 33% and lowest being 10%.
President Sargsyan’s average was 65%, with lowest at 58% and highest at 72%.
Given the large difference between those numbers and the actual votes, it is reasonable to assume there was probable forgery on behalf of Mr. Hovannisian.
Still, even with all that extra help, Mr. Hovannisian was buried under an electoral landslide.
Sweet.
Avery, dude, look at my post, and look at yours. Who is engaging in a hysterical diatribe? You act like a wound-up device–I just push a button, and pro-Serzh rantings just keep coming out. Your obsession with Serzh is so surreal, I would actually be glad if you were being paid for it. Otherwise, what a waste. Either that, or you are obsessed with opposing me, which is just as sad.
There was nothing “general” about your comment on elections. It was part of your usual message that the Diaspora should keep away from criticizing the rigged elections in Armenia. Did you really expect that people would just accept your comment without taking an exception with it?
I gave you a friendly advice. Stick to the Turkics. Before you lose all credibility.
Vahagn, Dude, buddy, pal: sour grapes of landslide loser Barevacadres.
and thanks for the friendly advice: keep it and stick it to yourself.
I can post on any subject and reply to any poster I want.
Only two entities decide what I post: myself and ArmenianWeekly.
Not you nor any of your Barevabuddies.
See you at the next thread, Dude.
btw, regarding credibility: I am sure someone writing what you wrote above about Jews is overflowing with credibility.