It’s time to address some of the advances Turks have made in their propaganda machinery and efforts. What started with the likes of “Tall Armenian Tale,” a mess of a website, is now far more sophisticated, because of serious money being poured in.
An example of money talking is an outfit called the Turkish Cultural Foundation (Turk Kultur Vakfi) with offices in Boston, Istanbul, Sonoma, and Washington, D.C. I’ve only recently become aware of it in any substantive way, though it was founded on Jan. 1, 2000, according to their website. They’ve been sending out slick newsletters advertising their lectures (most seem to be in Turkey). What’s insidious about this is the “We’re just an American group promoting cultural awareness” tack adopted by the group. The deviousness of this is obvious given the office locations cited. But it sure looks good and creates access to people’s hearts and minds. Worse, it is very difficult to counteract, for all the same reasons, much like the heinous “Anatolian” festival in Orange County last October, about which I’d written (see “Occupation, Liberation”). Also interesting is the subtle embrace of their murderous Ottoman past with the use of a logo that is almost identical to that empire’s “tugra,” or seal.
In tandem with this progress is the ever-increasing participation by Turks on Armenian websites/blogs, if comments posted to my articles are any indication. On one hand, we should thank the Turks for driving up the number of hits on our newspapers’ websites, enabling them to charge more for advertising. But there is a downside. Many of our folks respond, quite extensively and aptly, to the blather posted by these Turkish agents. Unfortunately, this eats up precious time on our side. It might be better to engage these Turks selectively. Only those comments that are well written, insidious, or even genuine outreach/curiosity should be addressed. The bulk of the Turkish comments, though, are beneath contempt, and should be met with one person posting a terse, barely one-sentence-long dismissal, and nothing else. The time saved is better expended posting on Turkish sites and causing them to spin their wheels, with lengthy, frothing “rebuttals” to our comments.
Another very dangerous form of Turkish “free speech” and propaganda has landed on American shores in the form of the Gulen movement. Muhammed Fethullah Gulen (usually conveniently omitting his first name to not stir up anti-Islamic sentiments) is the ideological head of the movement, although he actively “dissociates” himself from it organizationally. He fled to the U.S. under the pretext of seeking medical treatment, but probably to avoid arrest in Turkey. At the time, his Islamicism had not yet carried the political day in the form of the AKP, now in its third term of governing Turkey. This movement has been very adept at establishing Turkish-themed charter schools in many U.S. states. The money received from these schools makes its way to Turkey and Gulen’s pockets (some contend he is a billionaire) through a Medusan tangle of legal entities, as he is encamped in a huge compound in Pennsylvania’s Pocono Mountains. Some of this vile network may be starting to fray (more on this another time), but meanwhile, these schools are training a generation of kids (and future voters) in baseless Turco-philia.
We must be alert to these dangers on the public relations front and pre-empt and undercut them, not respond to them, which just serves to strengthen the Turks’ framing of issues and falls into the trap of playing their game with their rules, rather than ours. If you notice such activities and perfidy, report it to the ANCA, your favorite Armenian news source, or any other appropriate entity.
Garen Yegparian
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Turk Kultur Vakfi.
“Kultur” is borrowed word from Europe.
“Vakfi” is Arabic.
One out of three is not bad, I guess.
I was not aware “Europe” was a language.
Well written.
Armenians should not fear using culture especially if they are proud of it.
Oh what evil and poisoneous web they weave… and I agree.. we need to undercut them…
and how we do that? by working TOGETHER
Why Sonoma?
Isn’t that where Richard Turncoat Genhardt lives?
We really should picket his house.
The opposite of wise is fool in English. These guys, I mean the Gulen defamation league, does not know about their own guys. For instance, they were applauding Joshua Hendrick in every occasion till their guy turned out to be a true scholar by rebuking them over the Gulen charter schools. Like every body else, I laughed it like hell.
I also laughed like hell at how they spelled Turkey as “Tur-GAY.” 7th grade material that stuff.
Please don’t misunderstand our message of hope, peace and tolerance of Hocaefendi. Although he only has a 5th grade education and was exiled out of Turkiye he means well and so do the followers (Hizmet) who operate the 130 Charter Schools.
Please excuse my brothers above, they are trying to put out fires while igniting more fires and believe that bringing more bad attention to Cemaat is going to work. (Oxymoronish)
Here is the latest dissertation by Dr. Joshua Hendrick who is an expert on the Fethullah Gulen Movement. Dr. Hendrick explains the deep state and the struggle in Turkiye of secularism vs. Islamist control.
http://www.loyola.edu/people/files/Fall%202011-MERIP-Hendrick.pdf
Currently our Gulen Movement controls 70% of the police force, the judicary system, AKP party, education and media. But we are failing miserable in the USA because we don’t understand democracy and freedom of speech. When someone speaks out against us in Turkiye we have you arrested. In the USA we just make up lies and deny (out of embarassment) that we have anything to do with the Gulen Movement. You see denialism is in our DNA.
After all we are following the instructions of Hocaefendi “you must work into the arteries of the system until you reach all power centers” We accomplish this nicely worldwide. You can’t blame us, we are just drinking the kool aid from our master and don’t have a creative thought in our head.
http://www.gulencharterschools.weebly.com
http://www.gulenschoolsworldwide.blogspot.com (learn why even Azerbaijan doesn’t want our schools and now Northern Cyprus wants us out)
Why is that?
It is rather amusing how a true cultural organization like TCF which is involved in solely cultural and positive activities (Turkish culture does contain a good dose of Armenian culture too ironically!) is accused of vicious propaganda by those who have been practicing it for over a century. Heinous Anatolian festival?
“Only those comments that are well written, insidious, or even genuine outreach/curiosity should be addressed.”
Rest assured, there is no such risk here, as those comments usually do not see the light of day.
So what is the solution? More propaganda!
Calm down everyone, ex- Presidential candidate and governor of Texas – Rick Perry explains this very well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oCZaLqg3oo&feature=related
Is this the same Rick Perry who can’t count to three?
No the same Rick Perry that can count to 38 Gulen ran Harmony Science Academies and over 24 Turkic Foundations in Texas benefiting from all of that free flowing American Tax money intended for education.
He knows about the bond financing and ponzi schemes you got going on. Expect more American money to dry up. They won’t be feeding the Gulen Turkish Lobbying anymore.
Your parent company of the schools in Texas is Cosmos Foundation that has had over $6 million in Travel expenses on your 990 tax returns in just 3 years. That is a lot of free trips to Turkey for members of local politics, media and academia. Got to hand it to you….”getting into the arteries of the system business is expensive.”
Rick Perry was only citing what the other candidates know about Turkiye but decided to keep their mouths shut and be politically correct. Listen to the questions again, they were pre- loaded.
To the Eseks above, that are part of Cemaat…the truth is out. Politicians know that “if you touch it you will burn”
Congratulations Hizmet is more and more famous every day.
Your schools being investigated, denied expansion and not renewed. There isn’t a week that goes by that one of your schools is in the news: sex scandals (Dove Science Academy Tulsa, OK and Abramson Science and Technology LA) Both denied charters by the local school board.
Here was one such article in the NY Times by pulitizer prize winning author Stephanie Saul who exposes your organized crime in Texas.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/07/education/07charter.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
Who is this “your” you are referring to? Okay i’m from the same country as Gulen… Your point? Has anyone here defended the Gulen movement. Turkey is many things, yes it is ruled by Islamists. That doesn’t mean they are ruled by Islamic Terrorists- only Fox News is run by that logic.
RVDV— your leaders are terrorits.. what are you talking about?? and if they are terrorists.. then they are running a terrorist country.. we have seen this over and over… stop protecting crooks.. thought you were on the righteous and just side.. what happened? change of heart???
Gayane
State Department spokesman Mark Toner was asked at his daily briefing about whether the U.S. considered the Turkish government to be populated by “Islamic terrorists.”
“We absolutely and fundamentally disagree with that assertion. ”
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/jan/17/news/la-pn-turkey-us-state-dept-condemn-rick-perrys-islamic-terrorist-remarks-20120117
The US government is also protecting these terrorists.
Nothing you said above is news to us RVDV… not sure what you were trying to prove….US is very soft on Turkey.. tell me something I don’t know..
RVDV the name is from Europe, meaning Turkish language is borrowed and stolen from others:
Latin
Greek
Armenian
Assyrian
Hell you didn’t have an alphabet till 1924.
Nothing creative about you, Take Constaniople and change it to Istanbul
Steal the beautiful St. Hagia Sofia Church and shamelessly turn it into a mosque )later a museum with even a mention of who built it)
Not to mention the Topaki palace and other ancient treasures and Cathedrals.
Who built what we know today as ROT (Republic of Turkey est. 1923)?
I think we know the answer to that.
The culture that your group is touting at the Anatolian Festivals is that of the true indigenous peoples: Kurds, Assyrians, Armenians, Pontic Greeks, and more.
After all, was it not your ancestors that migrated/invaded from Mongolia Central Asia?
I hope you know Tokapi palace was built on a new location, not on the ruins of a Byzantine castle/ palace. We’ve been down the Hagia Sophia road before, you can figure it out. And all languages borrow elements from other languages, that’s not stealing.
Who built Modern Turkey? The Ottoman, Byzantine, Latin, Greek And Armenian empires, and all people who lived under their rule.
Regarding the Anatolian festival- yes Turkish culture is heavily influenced by other cultures. Again, that’s not stealing and it’s certainly nothing we should be ashamed of.
Yes, Turks were originally nomadic invaders? That means they are inferior?
RVDV,
when was a “Armenian empire” seen in the history ?
Necati: you can’t be serious. I refuse to Waste my time and answer that question.
Necati: when Turks were non-existent in history. in the 1st century BC
RVDV– here is a chance for you to show your support…i expect you to go on this site and express your thoughts as strongly as you have on our pages..
It is on todayszaman—- ARMENIAN PLACE OF WORSHIP BEING DEMOLISHED..
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-270446-malatya-municipality-
demolishes-armenian-place-of-worship.html
My comments generally don’t get posted there but, check tomorrow.
well, good start RVDV. both you and Gayane got published.
Let us see if you will strongly defend the AG @TZ at an opportune occasion some day.
Make sure you tell the readers you are a Turk of Kurdish origin: would be interesting to see the reaction from the usual Denialist-poster crew @TZ
RVDV– i did see your comment but you posted it under RVDV and that does not help the cause much.. please make sure you specifically identify yourself and instead of general comments, be very strong and to the point..
I too want to see what reaction you would get… very curious…
i stand at my point. Armenians were never able to set up an empire in their history.
if you are naming some small kingdoms as empire then no problem..
Good God you were actually serious.
Why are you surprised by Necati’s idiotic comments? She has been doing that for a while now.. so anything she says is no surprise…
You simply laugh and laugh hard and move on…
Oh please, this “we are better than you” talk is just childish and primitive. Just as ugly no matter who engages in it.
Point is Ottoman and Anatolian culture is also Armenian culture. What are these nationalists denigrating? There is a good chance that tugra was designed by an Armenian!
I am one Armenian that my ancestors were not forced to Turkify their last name because of your predjudice toward “gavurs” .
The Turkification process is alive and well with that Gulen Mulen organized crime group.
Mark Toner is a nothing and a nobody.
Here is another one of your groups that is the Turkish Business men under the Gulenist guise. They are causing quite a stir in every country they try and force or bribe their way into. Nice going in Ethiopia, trying to turn our Christian brothers into your slaves with those Turkish Textile mills and Islamic schools.
Ethiopians speaking Turkish is just creepy.
http://www.tuskon.org/?yenilisan=en
Before I can reply I need to know, should I call you Murat, The real Murat speaks again, Armen Tavulian, or Hagob Ohanesyan? Because the avatar is the same for all four, meaning you are using the same email address.
Oh yeah building schools for poor children in Africa. What an evil thing to do.
Garen,
You constantly prove yourself to be a bitter and jealous little man! Are we to believe that ONLY the ARF Dashnak Armenians can have any type of site or organization, while Moslems can not? Look what happens when you bring one up! You and your ilk trash it immediately! Then again, why are we not surprised!
Little Bobby,
Did you see my offer to debate you with a purse to be judged by a retired judge? Its only been o/standing to you and the oleaginous porcine Kirlikovali for three years.
Why don’t you put up or shut up?
now we are talking.. :)
Robert The Turk.. are we to believe you have ADD because you keep changing avatars from one day to another??
Be nice and stop yourself from acting like your govt.. childish and immature by name calling others…
ARF of any other Armenian organizations are traditional ethnic ARmenian organizations with their traditional customs..are your beloved organizations and festivals that promote culture, music, arts and everything else ethnic Turkish??? .. let me help you.. NO.. there is nothing traditional about Turkish nation…so i would suggest instead of calling the writer a bitter and jealous little man, think about where you are as a nation of millions that has produced nothing of their own…those magnificent things you enjoy as Turks… music, culture, food, artifacts, and of course MT. ARARAT… it is because of bitterness and jealously.. your ancestors took everything from Armenians and other Christians because they did not have what we had..if they did not perpetrate GENOCIDE upon my people and other Christians, you would be here enjoying and flaunting civilized nations’ everything at your make belief festivals and websites…pathetic….
Good Day sir
RVDV or whatever your REAL name is, get ahold of just one of the investigations going on with you stealing American tax money.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHaKoBLZLlI
Ron Regan investigative reporter for Ohio news exposes it.
I see you changed your email to change you avatar. Well played sir, well played.
Dear Gayane;
The difference between your Armenian cultural groups and the Gulen / Turkish /Turkic groups is they (The Gulencis) have dipped into bond financing, American stimulus money, school construction loans and other creative financing at the expense of the American tax payer. They also force “Tuzuk” (donations of up to 60% of their salary back to one of the local Gulen foundations/institutes) upon their h1-b workers which is unlawful and has been adressed with the Department of Labor.
This group has one of the highest amount of h1-b visas into the USA for teachers, lawyers, business managers (as if America doesn’t have enough over qualified individuals that are unemployed) The worker will grab a salary at a school while operating a construction firm or janitorial firm that also recieves a contract $$ from the school. Thus they double dip into salaries. The Gulen Movement is excellent at finding governmental money and using our money for their agenda.
Their teachers at these charter schools also qualified for the state’s retirement system since a charter school is a public school -which has been outsourced (publicly funded yet privately managed with little oversight) Sadly, the Gulenists will now lose this money as the IRS has just determined that Charter School employees (which usually have a much shorter career average is 1-5 years) are not entitled to dip into the state’s retirement fund. That each individual charter school management company must find their own retirement plan.
Interesting about the Gulen Cult is they believe that hiding behind humanitarian reasons or “it’s for the children” will work. They don’t realize that America has been down this road before with Scientology, and the Moonies (under Rev. Sun Moon)
Although they may not teach Islam in their American Charter Schools, they have a large emphasis on Turkish Culture and the Gulen Turkish Olympiads (in the USA they have 9 of these) are legendary. The Hitler Youth Movement worked the same way, get into the hearts and minds of the young. Give them a taste of shish kebab, Turkish language and dance. Even the parents are offered Turkish Language and cooking classes. They also travel to Turkey with their children. Turkification at it’s best. America watch out they are after your children.
Simple answer is that Turkish culture has a wide global appeal, it is simply not a religious or Muslim issue. I know how this may pain some here, but it is a fact.
I saw Brazilian to Mongolian kids speak Turkish to me, in most unusual places in the world. Their parents, upper class families, were climbing on top of each other to get their kids in these schools. Very large numbers of their graduates in USA end up in Ivy League. Teachers are all local and very few are Turkish or Muslim. I met a few. In places like Pakistan and Afghanistan they give many worthy kids a third option other than carrying AK-47 or medreses.
There is no smuggling, drugs, extortion, theft, brain washing or any ties to any extremists or violence or groups that promote it. Even the staunchest enemies have made no such claims.
I am not exactly a fan of Gulen, but I never understood the animosity that is generated against him or his work.
Howard.. Thank you for your post.. your detailed information about this shameful organization/CULT (more accurately described) was much help..
At the end of the day.. Turkish high officials/govt’s goal is to Turkify as many as possible.. to have their seeds in every strong country .. US unfortunately turned a blind eye and is very lenient on Turkish activities.. why?? well..
here is another example how Turkey is trying to dominate..
The Marmara Manhattan Hotel in New York is offering an extended stay package for pregnant aliens who want their babies to pop out all wrapped up in the star-spangled banner.
The 14th Amendment makes all children born on American soil bonafide American citizens, and it’s no big secret either.
But a hotel offering a birth package that includes a 2-month vacation in New York is probably something novel.
The 60-day Birth Package begins with an airport pickup and transfer from JFK Airport. Also includes special gift sets for the mother and the newborn, along with a crib and consultation and help services after birth.
Monthly rates for the package range from $5,100 for a studio suite to $15,000 for a 3-bedroom suite. Does not include medical charges. The total cost of a 2-month stay at the hotel plus the medical bills is likely to be in excess of $45,000.
The Marmara Manhattan is part of a Turkish hotel chain, so the Birth Package is aimed at rich Turkish families who might want their children to become Americans.
On the hotel’s website, it says “The Marmara Manhattan, the number one choice of Turkish families visiting New York, for either leisure or long stays, before and after giving birth, has prepared an exclusive package for new mothers that wish to give birth in the USA in the year 2010. This 60 day long stay package provides mothers with all the comfort and assistance they need before and after giving birth.”
Photo courtesy – Marmara Manhattan
Info: 301 East 94th Street New York, NY 10128 (212) 427-3100; http://www.marmara-manhattan.com
.why do we support such criminal acts is beyond me…because Turks are very sly and smart in how they do their business not to stick out as sore .. that is why.. they do everything under cover ( meaning using fake reasons, names, etc ) to do their business. but they are being caught.. and hope they will ALL be caught and shut down…
We all come from Adam & Eve.
We like it or not Armenians & Turks & others are brothers & sisters.
Turks are not better than Armenians.
Armenians are not better than Turks.
Which one of us had a chance to choose where they were born?
A person may be considered better than another only based on their actions & conduct.
I was not alive in 1915 neither most of the people who post here.
I never killed any Armenians or Turks, yet I may be considered a criminal by one or both sides? !!!
Can you be friends with the children of your father’s or grandfather’s enemy’?
it is Gayane Hanım who does not want friendship among nations.
This is what she said 3 days ago :
“We have a common enemy… lets concentrate on that”
and Necati.. how nice of you to actually read our posts but unfortunately you read what you want to read and disregard the rest of the obvious.. and on top of that you pick and choose the sections that suits your sick mind don’t you?
and for the last time.. here is what I said about your obnoxious way of referring to me…
gayane
February 7, 2012
Article: Anonymous Lauchnes Operations……
Necati XHANUM.. refraim from calling me Hanum.. I am not Turkish. .I am Armenian and there is no such word in the Armenian language….. So if you are trying to address me in your synical way, address me using the proper word in Armenian…
Stupid questions don’t deserve answers..and If you have not figured out who are our enemies then you are a lost cause… let me remove one from the list so you don’t think too hard otherwise it may affect your brain cells…. ORDINARY TURKISH PEOPLE ARE NOT OUR ENEMIES…
gayane
February 8, 2012
Same article:
So instead of getting our feelings hurt by occassional overactions, lets get over that and shift our efforts more on the common enemy (TURKISH DENIALISM and yes even Armenian indifference)… just my opinion…
so now that you feel caught red handed as a liar on top of being a rude, hard core Turk Denialist… next time please have a strong case before you accuse someone of something they have no association with..
yet again you show your immaturity and stupidity…
Good Day Xhanum…
Ara or kemal or steve… please pick a name and stick to it.. . you need to represent yourself…and be proud of it…. having a idealogy and nation and culture does not make you a hater of other cultures.. and i believe that is what you referrred to in your post right??.. In my opinion your post is so off the topic that I hesitated to respond to it…
However, decided to give you something to think about …..as it seems you have not been on our pages and you have not read or understood the general feel of what Armenians represent and what Turkish denialists represent….
It is unfortunate that you don’t see the difference but Armenians never said we are better than Turks.. however Turkish denialists such as Necati and people who think alike who are notorious of pointing out how superior Turks are over Armenians because Armenians are “gay-manians” and all we have to look up and see the moon (Turkish symbol on their flag)… is what we call superiority on the verdge of breaking syndrom. Armenians and Turks are not and wil never be sisters and brothers in that sense so that is out of the window and will not be discussed…
Intelligent/Ordinary Turks are our friends.. not our enemy… Turkish govt and Turkish denialism are our enemy and we will continue our fight until we get justice..
Just because one may not have been there to actually carry out the Genocide but that person or persons are direct decsendent of a govt who systematically destroyed a nation and now enjoying the wealth and lands their ancestors stole… so they DO have a part in it… however,their part can be as simple and affordable to them: like a genuine apology … or if that is too sensitive for them then there are other ways to show your brotherhood or sisterhood to Armenians…if you need some ideas, let me know and I can provide that to you..but I don’t know who you are.. whether or not you are a Turk, Armenian or American.. i don’t know how much my post can be related to you if I don’t know who I am talking to.. so what is worth.. hope that at least my post can give you something to think about..
Good Day
I am not sure why the hospital / hotel in NY would surprise anyone. After all the Gulen Movement also operates Hospitals worldwide. They own a tremendous amount in Lebanon and are opening more schools.
Health Care, Education, Industry, publishing, textiles, mining are but just a few of the Gulen Movement’s estimated 25 billion $$ industry.
Necati, RVDV are one in the same. The Gulenists are known for slamming online comment boards and will shamelessly use Jewish names or even Hispanic names while citing the generic praises of the Gulen Movement, a Gulen Charter School, etc., They are media savvy and work with their Gulen Media empire, ERBU TV, Fountain publishing, Today’s Zaman, et al. Trying to hijack the conversation away from the topic.
They will try to show how we are all similiar and how Turkey is the land of Love and Peace with many different cultures. This is the theme at their interfaith dialogs, we are all abrahamic religions (Jewish, Christian and Moslem) But it ends up it is a sales job on the Gulen Movement. Politicians, Religious leaders, Academia and media that are invited to these events (Like your Pacifica Institute in California) are then photographed with some sort of Peace award (usually a tea or other fine china in a blue box) this photographed is then broadcast among their websites and news stories to prove that they have the support of these people. Recently, they did this with your community by somehow getting an Armenian Attorney (Minnasian) to speak at their Anatolia Festival. They have broad cast his video on their site to show that “see Armenians even support the Turkish brand of peace, love and tolerance”, This has also happened in the Greek community in Chicago, the Niagrara Foundation regularly invites Bishop Demetrios to their events and takes a gadzillon photos of him with Gulen followers.
This comment board provides perhaps one of the best public records to date of the manipulation, deceit, arrogance and condescension of the members of the Gulen Movement.
In particular, notice:
– the endless repetition of two or three basic talking points;
– the way the discussion is inevitably hijacked and steered back to these points, often illogically;
– the incessant twisting and manipulation of what others say;
– the deflection away from the current topic whenever an inconsistency in their argument is exposed;
– the recurring theme that only Gulen and his movement provide the solutions to our problems;
– the lack of any acknowledgement that there are valid alternative perspectives;
– the recurring theme that any opposition to the Gulen Movement constitutes hate, and that only through acceptance of the Gulen Movement can one find love and peace.
These points are virtually identical to the tactics used by all aggressively proselytizing religious groups to gain converts. This is nothing unique to any Muslim group; Jehovah’s Witnesses, Scientologists, etc. use the same general scheme.
Normal, rational people can never “win” an argument with these proselytizers, because logical, thoughtful and respectful discussion is not something that these people engage in. They are highly trained in how to endlessly argue, cajole and manipulate, and their skills at this exceed those of normal people simply because normal people have a very different agenda.
Those academicians, journalists and other influential people who, to date, have supported the Gulen Movement should in particular take careful note of the Gulenist comments here. If they choose to continue their support, they will have to consider that while, to date, it has mostly been under the public’s radar, it will not continue that way. As some of these individuals intertwine their careers ever more deeply with the Gulen Movement, they might want to think carefully about exactly what it is they are getting entangled with. Some may still choose to exploit the “Interfaith Dialog Industry,” getting all the free Turkey trips, Gulenist awards, conference invitations and honoraria while the getting is still good. But those who are hoping for a more permanent legacy might wish to pay more attention to the likely outcome, as the tactics used by Gulen Movement members are coming more and more into the public eye.
thanks for the info Howard.
Will come in handy in our work.
True allies against the Turk and Turcophile Denialists always welcome: we Armenians can use all the help we can get.
Howard..you summed up in one post what we have been facing and dealing for the last few years on our pages…
… truly remarkable.. well done….
“Necati, RVDV are one in the same.”
Whatever man.
I obviously do not know who Necati and RVDV are, other than their postings, but they can hardly be the same person.
Their advocacy and styles are so different, that if it is the same person typing, there has to be two different brains controlling those fingers.
“Necati, RVDV are one in the same.”
RVDV,
Will you still scream “WE are all ermeni” ?
you know what side of AW i like most?
people come here saying: “hepimiz ermeniyiz” (we R all ermeni)
and leave saying : God D*mn !
Thank you AW… :)
Does anyone know a good shrink? or better yet neurologist?? because one person on our pages truly need mental help… i truly worry about this person and would not want to see her waste away like this.. no matter how ignorant, arrogant and rude denialist she is…
Please help her…
Gayane
This clown does not warrant the attention that you pay him/her. Just let him waste away himself as the author suggests.
of course , the number of people in AW i find worth to answer is limited..
new comers are def. not in my list…!
I’m sure the Armenian community are devastated that most of them do not make the cut to have the honor to converse with you my good sir.
I used 3 names before because what I write would be true regardless of my ethnicity.
Question remains.
When presented with only 2 options is it possible to find a 3rd way.
“You are either with us or with them” Not acceptable.
This is what Jesus did … find a 3rd option.
We do not have to be stuck with our “inherited” problems.
“But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”
Matthew 5:44
and Quran says
“And do not let ill-will towards any folk incite you so that you swerve from dealing justly. Be just; that is nearest to heedfulness” Quran 5:8
So what do you say….
Anyone for the 3rd option?
Ara Or Kemal or steve.. there is no 3rd ALTERNATIVE when it comes to GENOCIDE.. you know what Genocide means right?? You know what happens during Genocide?? You do know what the outcome of the Genocide is right???
I hope you do.. but it seems like you are not clear on that which is why you suggested a 3th option..in this case my friend, there IS NO 3rd option.. it is either PUNISHABLE offense or NOT… period…
Turkish existance was created on stolen lands, culture, history, arts, music of indigenous people… Turkish nation is either criminals for stealing or guilty for inheriting the stolen riches of their Christian people.. they must repay .. no ifs, buts, ors, ands, well, hmmms, oks..
In addition, the 3th alternative may work with a group who is willing to open their minds, and hearts and put aside their denialism/racism but we are dealing with Turkish denialists and Turkish govt.. that should give you the answer..
thank you
Gayane
Very easy to find out if the 3rd option will work.
Put on your ‘Ara’ hat, travel to Armenia, from there travel to Artsakh, volunteer to guard the LOC between Artsakh and Azerbaijan wearing the uniform of NKR Defense Force.
Make sure you stand proudly above trenches holding the beautiful flag of Artsakh.
If you survive more than 24 hours, you can come back and preach us here @AW about the 3rd option.
If you don’t come back, we’ll know it didn’t work.
Full Disclosure Warning: Azeri snipers kill anyone at LOC that makes the mistake of appearing in their telescopic sights. They apparently have not heard about your 3rd option yet.
Avery jan.. xndaluts mera.. shat lav asetsir..:)
I am thinking our friend with many different hats would not want to take that option…:)
O… I also have one for the “not so religious” folk.
“I’m starting with the man in the mirror
I’m asking him to change his ways
And no message could have been any clearer
If you want to make the world a better place
Take a look at yourself, and then make a change”
Michael Jackson
I am not sure who you are directing your speech Ara or Kemal or steve but You are preaching to the wrong crowd my friend if you are directing it to us.. Armenians are not the ones who near wiped out a nation, ancient history/culture/existance for no apparent reason…
Having to look in the mirror and then making a change should be directed to your friends in Turkey.. who preach democracy yet they do the opposite..who points out wrong doings in other countries yet they have a skeleton HUGE one in their own closet and refuse to admit it..
Nice but no carrot…
I was directing my comments to myself first and anyone who would listen next.
There is something creepy about a group of people who destroys graves and their beautiful crosses. Then has the gaul to take a church and convert it into a mosque.
JPC =Just plain creepy.
No wonder Europe doesn’t want anything to do with the Turkish Drama.
You will be wasting yourself like trash Nejati.
Sometimes it is possible to win an argument but not be a winner.
I am not saying it is easy.
I am saying to have a heart that is clear from hate and anger makes you a winner at the end.
Life is too short.
To quote “Braveheart”
“Everyone dies but not everyone lives”
Again I am not saying it is easy. I am just saying it is worth trying.
Who do you think this is addressing?
“But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,”
Matthew 5:44
Everyone except Armenians?
O Lord forgive them as they know not what they are saying…
Turk-oglu Kemal:
Stop quoting the Bible and preaching Christianity to Armenians.
Armenians adopted Christianity as the official State religion 1700 years ago.
We have paid a very heavy price. We no more to give.
We Armenians have given millions of peaceful Christian martyrs to Christianity.
We have no more to give.
Again, stop preaching to us Armenians: preach to your Denialist Turk brothers and sisters.
If you believe so much in peace, love, brotherhood, and all that, go and preach it to your Turk-oglar brothers in Baku, who are still issuing orders today to their troops to kill Armenians.
My intention was not to preach but to point out a universal value that should apply to Turks, Armenians, Jews, Anglos etc.
Armenians are proud people just like Turks and Chinese and Germans….
Question here is not who has more to be proud of but who can display qualities of a true human being as intended by our creator.
If another person, tribe or nation cannot showcase such qualities this does not give ME the license to act the same way.
“Blessed are the peace makers”
so why not compete in this instead….
P.S.
About my name….Keep guessing
Yes indeed: everybody is “proud people”
Martians are “proud people”
Klingons are “proud people”
Sumerians are “proud people”
Everybody is “proud people”.
PS. about your name: no need to guess. Denialist Turks and their Turcophile agents all have an easily recognizable signature, despite the variety of incongruous names under which they ply their Denialist propaganda.
PS2: You are wasting your time here. Tell your Denialist friends.
You see, I would be wasting my time if my goal was to cause trouble or pick a fight.
If you look at my postings here I never denied or confirmed anything.
Yet you assumed things about me.
All I have been saying was: There may be a better way. Let’s find it together.
Clearly, the normal conversation here does not go anywhere.
Perhaps people may feel few minutes of comfort after calling each other names.
BUT it does not produce anything good.
So, can we start treating each other as individuals rather than “representatives”
of this ideology or that nation.
You and I may start talking “My people did this Your people did that”…
Well, tell me what YOU did with your life.
AND later listen to MY life story.
I am not saying it is easy.
I am not saying it will happen next week.
All I am saying is let’s not wait for next generation.
To love your enemies does not mean to abandon justice, to disregard theft, or to ignore murder. It means we can love the God-given image our enemies posess, and we can pray that they become enlightened.
Reading your post at face value would mean that there is no self-defense.
It is bizarre that you lambaste Armenians (wrongly) for not following the love thy enemy idea, while saying nothing about the denialists and Turkish state propaganda that places a wall between Turks and truth.
By asking Armenians to try the so-called 3rd option, you are implicitly Denying the Armenian Genocide.
You Deny the Armenian Genocide – you have nowhere else to go with me, pal.
You are not first one. And you won’t be the last.
I have time to spare, and infinite patience.
I have seen all the variations of Denialists. Nothing new.
They all think they have a new angle.
They all slink away in the end.
You will too.
The is no 1st option. or 2nd. or 3rd. or 4th. ….or Nth.
2 million of my Armenian ancestors were savagely massacred.
go and teach tolerance to those who are still trying to exterminate my people.
there are no children here: again, stop insulting our intelligence.
like I said – you want to teach tolerance, 3rd option, 4th option, whatever: go to Baku first.
AOKOS too long to write your made up name and my time is valuable)— if you are here to preach us(as I mentioned in my previous post you are barking up the wrong tree) I would suggest you go and do that on Turkish on-line publications.. there are more racism, hatred, denialism than on our pages.. so your quest to try to teach/preach/suggest or whatever you call it alternatives to something that do not require or need one will go unresolved.. we have given you plenty of literature on this matter but yet you continue with this brotherhood, kumbayaaa and peace and love …
Sorry you fell into the wrong discussion forum.. Armenians are Christians if you have forgotten it…
Thank you
Speaking of proofs Avery, where does the number 2 million come from? Even the Armenian claim is 1.5 million, the Turkish claim naturally is much lower.
http://www.ppu.org.uk/genocide/g_armenia2.html
This site claims the TOTAL population of Armenians in OE was 1.75 million at the time.
Dear JDA,
You are assuming what I would or would not say based on your experience with other people not ME.
Idea of Self-Defense is a human right.
So everyone has the right to defend themselves.
As far as I know Turks & Armenians are not at war now.
Arguments here are about events that took place almost 100 years ago.
So It is really not self-defense more like “Ancestor-defense”
And this is the case for both sides. (Turks & Armenians)
Both sides are defending their Ancestors not themselves.
So repeat the original question to both sides.
Can you be friends with the children of your father’s or grandfather’s enemy’?
Also, I am not picking on Armenians here.
It is just that only Armenians are replying to my posts.
Perhaps that is a problem too.
There is no platform where two sides can talk, agree or disagree in a civilized way.
Dear GAYANE
Any red-blooded American Mother would tell you this:
“If other people jump from the roof will you do the same”
You say there is more “hate” on the other side.
This is like saying “My next door neighbor has more junk than me in his yard”
Well, OK now what?
I think it was Abraham Lincoln who said it :
“I will destroy my enemy by turning him into my friend”
How about it?
I love the way you described my posts :-)
“…but yet you continue with this brotherhood, kumbayaaa and peace and love …”
How silly of me.
Not 100 years ago.
Barely 20 years ago AzeryTurks, massively supported by Turks (of Turkey), and the Turkish State, and misguided Muslim fighters – attempted a mini-Genocide of the indigenous Armenians of ancient Armenian historic land of Artsakh.
Study what happened in Sumgait (1988), Kirovabad (1988), Baku (1990), Maragha Village massacre, war-crime massive bombardment of civilian population of Stepanakert, and the illegal invasion of the Nagorno Karabagh Republic of by the Azeri Military. Thousands of Armenians were killed in successful thwarting the attempted extermination of Armenians.
Less that 20 years ago.
Azeri President Abulfaz Elchibey promised that the last Armenian he found in Karabagh, he would hang in the central square of Stepanakert.
Same Elchibey promised to wash his feet in Armenia’s Lake Sevan – after presumably ethnically cleansing NKR of Armenians, and also invading Armenia.
Azerbaijan, with political and military support from Turkey is massively rearming to attempt another invasion of Artsakh.
The Genocide continues: Denial of the Genocide by Turkey is continuation of the Armenian Genocide.
Also, I am not picking on Armenians here.
It is just that only Armenians are replying to my posts.
Well the site is called Armenian Weekly, who did you expect to reply?
Howard Kezler, The Real Murat, Armen Tavulian, Murat, Hagob Ohanesyan, Laurene Peymand are all aliases of a particular Armenian from Fresno. This person needs to seriously get a life honestly and stop trolling around the web.
RVDV:
you wrote: “Speaking of proofs Avery, where does the number 2 million come from? Even the Armenian claim is 1.5 million, the Turkish claim naturally is much lower.”
I have gone through this many times before with others. But I’ll do it for you one more time, because you are generally fair – you often post strong counters to Denialists. (but…there is a but….)
1895: 300,000 Armenians massacred by Sultan Hamid.
1909: 30,000 Armenians massacred in Adana.
1915-1923 1.5 million Armenians exterminated.
1937-38 Dersim: up to 100,000 thousand massacred.
Not all Armenians of course.
Not even most. Kurds and Alevis were majority murdered.
But Dersim had a substantial population of hidden Armenians.
There were also many other small, obscure massacres that pale in comparison, so they are generally ignored.
But not by me.
Plus, judging from historical accounts from the days of Seljuk Turks invasions, massacres of Armenians (and other non-Turks) was a routine occurrence.
And honestly, do you really believe there were no small scale massacres before 1894 ? Suddenly, out of the blue 300,000 were massacred ?
As to the 1.5 million: that number is the one mentioned most often, because that was the Armenian Genocide of 1915.
I use the 2 million to include all the murders I attribute to Turks of the period.
And, RVDV my friend, your post above is precisely why I cannot trust you fully.
You write strong Anti-Denialist posts. But every so often, something strange pops out.
You questioning the number and providing a link that shows Armenians in OE were presumably 1.75 million at the time of the AG tells me a lot.
Now, is the number of exterminated Armenians 1.85 million ? 1.9 million ? 2.1 million ? 2.3 ?
I don’t know the exact number. I use rounded 2 million. Turks don’t like it ? I don’t care.
And here is something to chew on: you have heard that 6 million Jews were murdered by Nazis, yes ? Yes. Of course you have.
Well, the real number according to Jewish sources is 5.9 million. Why is it that nobody writes to complain about “6 million” ?
Because does it matter if it was 5.5, or 5.9, or 6.2 ? If it was 1 million Jews exterminated, would it have been any less of a colossal crime ?
People that question the number have an agenda.
(I will ignore the link you provided: I can provide links, you can provide links,…it will never end)
Fair enough Avery, if you include massacres before AG yes, the number would be 2 million. But the AG was from 1915 to 1923 so other massacres should be mentioned separately. I don’t understand why you include massacres, like Dersim, where the majority killed were not Armenian. Close to 11 million died in the Holocaust, but the Jews only list their numbers.
Like you said, 1 million or 10 million, it does not change the nature and inhumanity of the crime, so providing just AG numbers will more than suffice to get the gravity of the situation and crime across.
found another Turkish victim who thinks there is “debate” here but actually Armenians use him to make their propaganda in internet ?
To All,
i will repeat Avery: ” I graduated with honors from the Armenian KGB (at the time) Directorate of Psychological Warfare, Psyops” .
So , dont be so naive to believe you can show him some truths.. He has a job here..And Gayane Hanım is his student..
We really need to find that nuero or shrink cause Necati who is slow in comprehending and following is completly losing it. Another denialist bites the dust. Farewell brain cells hello craziness
RVDV:
You wrote: {“ I don’t understand why you include massacres, like Dersim, where the majority killed were not Armenian”}
In my original post to which you object, I wrote this regarding Dersim:
{“ 1937-38 Dersim: up to 100,000 thousand massacred.
Not all Armenians of course.
Not even most. Kurds and Alevis were majority murdered.
But Dersim had a substantial population of hidden Armenians.”}
Clearly, the expression “Kurds and Alevis were majority murdered”, should leave no doubt in anybody’s mind – even RVDV’s – that I unequivocally wrote that Kurds and Alevis bore the brunt of the massacre at Dersim.
Again, it should be crystal clear:
“Not all Armenians of course. Not even most”.
“Kurds and Alevis were majority murdered”
When the Dersim massacre took place, an unknown number of Armenians were also massacred.
And just because Armenians were forced to convert or hide their identity to escape death in 1915-23 and then massacred again in 1937-38 does not mean they were no ‘massacred Armenians.’ at Dersim.
To me they were Armenians. Always were. Always will be.
Turks desperately want to minimize what they did: too bad – myself and others like me will document and publicize every atrocity Turks committed against Armenians: if Turks like RVDV don’t like that, it gives me more an incentive to publicize it even more.
For further research: “ON HISTORY AND ACTUAL PROBLEMS OF ARMENIANS OF DERSIM”
http://noravank.am/eng/issues/detail.php?ELEMENT_ID=5054
Regarding: “Close to 11 million died in the Holocaust, but the Jews only list their numbers.”
First, they did not “die”: they were murdered. They did not die peacefully of natural causes. And the numbers are much higher than 11 million.
Your statement is similar to the standard line used by others in other places.
Somehow just because Jews do not mention the exterminated Slavs, Gypsies, handicapped Germans, Homosexuals, etc – they are guilty of something.
The answer is always the same: if Slavs, for example, do not want to publicize their own exterminations at the hands of the Nazis, why should Jews be obligated to do it for them ? Do you yourself feed everybody in the word ?
Or you take car of your family first ? You will help others when you can: but who comes first ? Did you not object when you thought – wrongly – that I somehow minimized the Kurd and Alevi victims at Dersim ?
Did you in fact not write this: {“I don’t understand why you include massacres, like Dersim, where the majority killed were not Armenian”}
You are upset that I even dared mention Dersim, but you complain that Jews are no listing all the victims of Nazis ? Do you see the disconnect ?
If Jews themselves had not pushed for worldwide recognition of the JH relentlessly and for decades, would people like you – RVDV – have even cared ? Would people like you, RVDV, have done it for them ? I doubt it.
Same argument is thrown at Armenians as well. “Why don’t you mention that Greeks and Assyrians were also massacred ?”.
Well, we do whenever we can.
But if Greeks themselves do not want to push for a recognition, why should Armenians have to do it for them ?
Our obligation is: Do Not interfere in anyway in their efforts (…not that we would).
But Greeks and Assyrians have to take the lead for their Cause.
Nobody else took the lead for our Armenian Cause: we did.
We have had help from righteous peoples from many nationalities and faiths.
(e.g. Jews Lemkin, Dr. Israel Charney, Turks Dr. Akcam, Ayse Gunaysu…)
But we, Armenians, are the ones in the trenches. Every day.
(We have also had Denialist Jews like Abe Foxman fight alongside Denialist Turks in their worldwide efforts of AG Denial: we don’t forget that either.)
Well said Avery jan… Well said..
Things like this makes me believe RVDV has a different agenda in his books other than promoting righteousness and equality from a Turk… Statements like this create confusion in my mind about people like RVDV… Ragnar tried very hard to spin us in circles and to some extent he thought he won but at the end, true colors always come out no matter how sophiticated and intelligent one comes off…
Gayane
“Your statement is similar to the standard line used by others in other places.
Somehow just because Jews do not mention the exterminated Slavs, Gypsies, handicapped Germans, Homosexuals, etc – they are guilty of something.”
No, what I’m saying is that Jews don’t inflate their numbers. THAT is what I’m saying. The number of Armenians killed from 1890s to 1923 could possibly be 3 million- it would not surprise me. But AG was from 1915 to 1923. All other massacres, including Dersim also need to be dealt with, with the harshest possible punishment, but they are separate events.
“If Jews themselves had not pushed for worldwide recognition of the JH relentlessly and for decades, would people like you – RVDV – have even cared ? Would people like you, RVDV, have done it for them ? I doubt it.”
I’m not going to care FOR anyone. If the Jews didn’t care about Holocaust recognition for some reason, I wouldn’t care for them. If they were cool with their ancestor’s murderers getting away with a horrible crime, that’s on them. If they could care less about their own ancestors, then what does it matter what I think.
And this:
“But if Greeks themselves do not want to push for a recognition, why should Armenians have to do it for them ?”
Makes me believe that you agree with me. If the Greeks don’t want to push for recognition, Armenians shouldn’t do it for them. It’s their ancestors, if they don’t really care that much, that’s on them. Not you, me, or any other non-Greek.
Look, Avery, I know we hardly ever agree and I’m tired of arguing about these things. It’s like arguing about religion, you can never win. I believe what I believe, you believe what you believe. I respect your views and beliefs even if I think they’re extreme sometimes. If AG is going to be recognized by Turkey it will be through the efforts of those who think like you. So even though I don’t particularly like your approach, after seeing Turkish posters, your mentality is necessary to deal with these people. I’m not a secret denialist trying to cover up anything with fancy vocabulary or anything like that. I know you have probably seen every shape and size of Turkish denialists on this forum and others, but I can’t make you believe I am on your side. All I can do is give you my word. If it’s not enough, then it’s not enough. I’m sorry. I care about AG recognition, whether you think I have an agenda or not, I do. But I know that you, as an Armenian, care more than I ever will. I see that as normal. It happened to your people, naturally your feelings will be a little more extreme than mine.
And finally: ““Not all Armenians of course. Not even most”.
“Kurds and Alevis were majority murdered””
That makes Dersim my problem more than yours then. We got an apology, insincere as it may be. And as we don’t have a country, we aren’t in a great position to demand compensation, YET. And my quote ” I don’t understand why you include massacres, like Dersim, where the majority killed were not Armenian.” You were listing Armenian massacres. Dersim was a Kurd an Alevi majority massacre. I simply said I don’t understand why you list a majority non-Armenian massacre along with Armenian massacres.
RVDV, two things:
One can make a case that the Hamidian massacres and Adana massacres were the embryonic phase to the mindset that allowed the CUP to consider genocide or ethnic cleansing as a solution to the Armenian problem and establishment of a homeland for Turks. Also, the Dersim massacre, which included the murder of hidden and Muslimized Armenians alongside Kurds and Alevis, was a continuation of that mindset. From the Armenian perspective, these events flow into one another and genocide denial is only a later phase of that same mindset.
Historians have a need to label time periods. That’s what they do. But from the Armenian perspective, it has been well over a century of Turkish brutality (including the indignity of AG denial) toward Armenians with almost no accountability…
Well, I read your post RVDV.
This thread has run its course, so I will not comment.
We’ll meet again at another place.
RVDV- don’t forget about hidden Armenians.. i have a feeling the unknown number of Armenians who perished during the Dersim massacres will be dismissed by denialists and Turcophiles… hence why it is important to stress the fact that Dersim massacres is also Armenian related.. and not just yours..
Thank you
Gayane
Whether we are Armenian or other, we need to realize that when Turks or Turkish citizens show sympathy, or at least some accurate factual knowledge, they deviate from the orthodoxy of their society, and are often shunned by their closest relatives for it.
Most people subscribe to the official orthodoxy of state and culture, so while we disagree and educate these freer-thinkers, our cause is better served by civility and respect for this class of person. I for this reason disagree with the stream of abuse and sarcasm Avery heaps upon RVDV for this reason. Disagree, good; ridiule, not good.
Dealing with the Turkish state and its Nazi followers is different. It is hard to summon even Chrisian manners in speech for them, although we should do this for God’s sake. I fail often at this.
Irrespective of which group one is in and supports, we need to appreciate the difficulty of being a non-conformist. For example, i believe Ara Sarafian of Gomidas Institute has been maligned because he questioned Dadrian’s “prosecutorial” style, and some of the information about Armenians being drowned in groups of many thousands at one time in the
Black Sea.
Would each of us support the right fully to espouse a different stance, which asserts Genocide, on such lesser issues from an Armenian, or would we tend to think of our non-conformists as traitors too?
{jda January 11, 2012 “Avery, Paul, or maybe it was Curly and Moe;”….. “let’s just call him Shep [Berch]”}
{paul January 13, 2012″ ‘jda’: I hope you understand that by denigrating those who disagree with you (lousy lawyer, grief counselor, mon general, Curly and Moe, sip the kool-aid, tiny paladin, saying that people have a syncretic culture is reminiscent of Nazis) you denigrate yourself.”}
{jda January 14, 2012 ““Tiny paladin” fits Avery as he rushes around the battlements telling Armenians how to argue or bestows an attaboy, and as he comes to your rescue in 1 inch of rhetorical water. Plus its nicer than “hormonal chihuahua.”}
Now, regarding: [“the stream of abuse and sarcasm Avery heaps upon RVDV for this reason. Disagree, good; ridiule, not good.”]
Show me the posts where I have allegedly directed a “stream of abuse” at RVDV.
And so that you do not forget your poor track record of judging who is who: in another thread you similarly criticized me for supposedly being harsh on the AzeriTurk poster ‘Kerim’, and praised him for supposedly accepting the AG.
Shortly thereafter, you apologized to the AW readers for your mistake of praising ‘Kerim’. Can you please remind the AW readers why you did that ?
Avery,
Your hyper vigilance is better suited to something more important than who said what on AW.
Kerim falls into my third paragraph, RVDV does not. I had given Kerim the benefit of the doubt because he admitted the Genocide, but then saw a subsequent post in which he seemed to glory in it. At that point I realized my hospitality had been wasted on a Nazi. Since you catalog and savor this trivia, what great insight does this show?
My jabs and ripostes in your direction came only after your idiotic assertion that I am a Turk (because i deviated from the Avery Orthodoxy), something for which an honorable man or woman would have apologized without prompting long ago. In your silence, we learn much about your character.
Keep trying, junior. try to be more flexible than say Egemin Bagis, more self deprecating than Ergun Kirlikovali. you’re almost their furious comic equal.
“Keep trying, junior. try to be more flexible than say Egemin Bagis, more self deprecating than Ergun Kirlikovali. you’re almost their furious comic equal.”
Thanks for the compliment, counselor.
I have nothing to apologize for to you: nothing you have written since your Turcophile post of asserting Armenians are not indigenous to the Armenian Highlands has given me reason to think otherwise.
And again:
Regarding: [“the stream of abuse and sarcasm Avery heaps upon RVDV for this reason. Disagree, good; ridiule, not good.”]
Show me the posts where I have allegedly directed a “stream of abuse” at RVDV.
…..something for which an honorable man or woman would have apologized without prompting long ago. In your silence, we learn much about your character.
Well JDA.. I am kind of dissapointed in you.. truly am…
Having the strong attack on Turks and Azeri denialists what makes you great but I did not know how vile and rude you can get toward your own… and for reasons that are justifiable and understandable…
If you believe that certain posters are harsh on Azeris/Turks or even apologist Armenians (yes we do have them among us) on our pages, then that is fine; however I rather have that than fall into the same category as “Armenians are the same…stupid enough to fall for denialists/apologists’ fake sympathy and recognition”.. I know you get that but why such hostility toward someone who stands up to ugly, lies, manipulations, and denial no matter how harsh it may come off is beyond me…
in any case.. having spoken in that tone and with such rude comment is not necessary.. save it for the denialists….
Thanks
Gayane,
Don’t rush to judgment.
I think Avery makes good substantive arguments against denialists and racists, and I have said so openly.
However, because he disagreed with me in November about something which is not disputable, he forgot how to argue politely and accused me of being a Turk.
You would not like that, and neither do I.
The issue is where the Armenian language originated. I pointed out that the inhabitants of the highlands were colonized in part by Armenian speakers from Thrace and Phrygia. Strabo, Herodotus, modern population genetics and linguists all support the hypothesis.
The same mechanism explains how most nations on the map got their language – they were conquered or assimilated by smaller groups of mobile people who impressed their language upon them. Its why Celtic is spoken in Ireland, and Arabic in Egypt. The original language of Egypt is Coptic, and the Picts did not speak Gaelic.
The inhabitants of the highlands – our far ancestors – did not always speak Armenian, but much of who we are predates the language.
Avery is lucky that, after calling me a Turk, all he has to contend with are words on a screen. You saw my physical challenges to some Turks. If I met Avery face to face, I would probably lose my composure. 200 years ago,you know what the men of our society did when insulted.
{“about something which is not disputable,”}.
Not only is it disputable, but it has been shown to be false by historians and scientists in RoA.
Not only is it disputable, but it is a standard Turcophile propaganda line: “Armenians are not indigenous, they are invaders. So, don’t complain about Seljuk Turk invaders. You are invaders. We are invaders. Everybody invaders. La la la…”
And if and when you and I meet, please do not lose composure: being a former police officer, and former lawyer (as you have stated) – you should be familiar with what is called “Assault and Battery”, a Felony.
I am sure men did a lot of things 200 years ago.
But this is 2012, United States. The land of the Law.
Stop fantasizing about Medieval Knights, Jousts with Javelins, and all that.
JDA i don’t jump to conclusions without any good reason….this is not the first time I noticed such hostility which is why I wonder sometimes… are you really on our side or …………….
because to me.. and this is my own opinion and no one else…if one is on our side he or she will never ever use such language and attitude toward another fellow Armenian no matter how much that person is against your ideology or thought process.. everyone has an opinion to voice their opinion of course and we all do however, i feel you are being tooo harsh on Avery and that is not cool.. period..
and showing violence toward another Armenian is even more unheard of as you presented above.. what is wrong with you??
By the way.. i have been called many things too .. but I would never display such hostility especially toward another Armenian who is on our side…
Even though I solute you for your strrong push back on Turks/Azeris, I just don’t get your attitude toward your own.. that I don’t like.. not that you care or matters..but such gestures creates confusion in my mind .. i don’t know about other Armenians on this site..
In any case.. i would say if it was me, I would not jump at Avery’s throat without understanding where the comment is coming from… it may be something triggered that and it usually is…
also, i am not sure what men of our society did when they were insulted 200 years ago because i doubt our men would go against each other like that…
Gayane
Gayane,
I respect your patriotism as well as your loyalty to Avery, so I will try once more.
Avery can criticize my personal views all he wants. He can say my views hurt the cause, and I will remain calm.
But when he says I am a Turk, by which he does not mean Ayse Gunaysu but instead someone like the men who killed my grandparents’ families, I won’t stand for it. Before I used emotional and angry prose to disdain his idiocy, I wrote several temperate posts explaining my views calmly, which only drew more insinuations I was not the real jda, but a Turkish imposter.
The idea that someone who disagreees with the unofficial community spokesman is therefore a traitor or Turk is exactly what is wrong with how Turks run their country, and why we cheer the brave Turks like Ms. Gunaysu and Mr. Zarakolu. They did not take the easy path. Our community, which is free, has no such ideological litmus tests.
What exactly do you think would happen to someone who called an Armenian a Turk to his face anywhere in the world? If you have a husband or sons, I think you would expect them not to stand quietly for an insult to their identity and their parents and ancestors. Avery is lucky I don’t know who he is for the same reason.
Avery,
You claim there is now scholarship proving that the Armenian language did not originate in Thrace and Phrygia. That’s interesting. It would in fact be revolutionary, so please post a link to it.
But what you don’t seem to understand is that it is not anti-Armenian and it is certainly not denialist to point out the schoalrship behind the universal belief that the language came from the west, with settlers and colonists, who absorbed and were absorbed into the indigenous peoples, who were as much our ancestors as the colonists. The idea that someone is Anti Armenian in your Orthodixy of One merely for pointing this out, is breathtaking.
There may be Nazi Turks who say that Armenians came from somewhere other than Armenia to blunt criticism that they come from somewhere else. None of this matters to the issue of Genocide and cultural Genocide. Jews in some sense were the outsiders to eastern Europe, but the systematic Genocides against them or the Roma are not any the less Genocides for that reason.
Armenians were Armenians even before their language arrived. If you go back 300 generations or so, the people who lived around Lake Van, who might be our mutual ancestors, were still Armenians, even if the language did not arrive with still-newer ancestors for another 100 generations.
If you don’t or can’t wrap your brittle intelligence around this, that’s ok, just don’t insinuate I am a Turk for saying it. Or, call all the German and Russian linguists and historians going back to the Ninetheenth Century Turks as well.