Gunaysu: Denial Is a Hate Crime and Denialist Discourse Is Hate Speech

“It is as if a general orphan-like spirit floats over the [Muslim] quarter. Laziness, an apathetic attitude toward life is the character that appears among the Muslims. In contrast, if you enter the quarter of the Christians, your heart feels happiness; you find superbly constructed houses, which testify to the proprietors’ interested in life, and to their beautiful disposition, and clean and broad streets. In contrast to the immobility of the Muslims, the Christians are always on the move. In this respect, they enjoy the good things of life much more… The difference is even more obvious in regard to education. Whereas the Christian citizens generally know how to read and write, more or less, the Muslims are very much behind.”1

The jacket of Kieser's 'Nearest East'

Ahmet Serif—an Ittihadist intellectual, journalist, traveler, and Ottoman government official—wrote these words after he visited Marsovan (today’s Merzifon in the Black Sea region of Turkey); his travel notes were published in Tanin, a paper close to the Committee of Union and Progress (CUP). The year was 1911—four years before the world’s first “modern” genocide was set into motion with a carefully designed plan.

And how did Ahmet Serif feel about the picture he vividly illustrated? “From the faces of the schoolgirls and schoolboys, life and vitality burst forth. Let us not lie: I did not feel admiration for this, but jealousy. I did not want to see this. Men were coming from America and I don’t know where, and creating in the most remote villages of Turkey models of civilization. Sad and ashamed as an Ottoman, I left,” he wrote after his visit to the American school in the town of Hajin in Adana.2 There was a significant Armenian population in Hajin, and the school was established by American Protestant missionaries like many others in old Armenia.

I am thankful to Hans-Lukas Kieser for bringing these quotations to light, for showing an Ittihadist intellectual’s outrageously blatant, audaciously straightforward, and unreservedly heartfelt confession of hate for everything good that did not belong to the Ottoman Muslims.

In his 2010 book Nearest East, Kieser quotes Serif to show how Muslim intellectuals and members of Ittihadist circles felt humiliated, excluded, and threatened by the American Protestant missionaries’ export of renaissance to the eastern vilayets of the Ottoman Empire, where Armenian communities were ready to absorb and learn for social, intellectual, emotional, religious, and historical reasons. What struck me the most, however, was that unreserved expression of jealousy that, as we know, paved the way to hatred: “I did not feel admiration for this, but jealousy. I did not want to see this.”

It was hate, stemming not only from religious or ethnic reasons, but for social and economic reasons, that played a great part both in the genocidal will among large parts of the establishment and of the local population.

Although I have just started reading Ugur Umit Ungor and Mehmet Polatel’s groundbreaking book Confiscation and Destruction, which deals with the plunder of Armenian property during and after the genocide, I have already come across several references to such expressed envy. Ungor and Polatel quote Joseph Pomiankowski (1866-1929), the Habsburg military attaché who served in the Ottoman Empire during World War I. “He noticed—with irony—that after the Young Turks ascertained that Armenians ‘enriched’ themselves, their discourse led to ‘a violent displacement of the Greeks and Armenians from all professions, which offered a possibility of acquisition and enrichment (Bereicherung),’” they wrote. “Pomiankowski had seen very clearly ‘that the Turks looked to the flourishing settlements of the Armenians in eastern Anatolia and Cilicia with envy and anger (Neid und Wut), in comparison with which, the Moslem homes almost everywhere constitute a picture of poverty and misery.” 3

At the cost of deviating from the main line, I can’t help but remember how the Turkish left has always preached that imperialism was responsible for Turkey’s economic and social backwardness. This is a premise shared by nearly all sectors of Turkish society, from socialists to nationalists and advocates of Turk-Islam synthesis. The majority of the Turkish intelligentsia and left, however, never established any link between Turkey’s underdevelopment and the destruction of a newly flourishing commercial bourgeoisie which would have eventually been transformed into an industrial bourgeoisie and generated the accumulation of capital to lay the groundwork for a more or less healthy capitalist development, overcoming the pre-capitalist obstacles to development. Blaming others instead of oneself is always more convenient, relieving, and harmless.

Ungor and Polatel mention the extent of the Armenians’ economic destruction as follows: “In this process of persecution, the ethnically heterogeneous Ottoman economic universe was subjected to comprehensive and violent forms of ethnic homogenization. The distribution of Armenian wealth was a central part of this process. The genocide ripped and tore apart the fabric of urban, provincial, and national economies, destroying market relationships and maiming economic patterns that had endured for many centuries in the Empire.” 4

Just to give a few statistics to remind the readers what the extermination of Christian trade and business people meant for the national economy of the Ottoman Empire, I will once more quote from Confiscation and Destruction: “Commerce in the interior was heavily Armenian in the east (and Greek in the west), even though Turks were also involved in domestic trade. For example, in 1884, of the 110 merchants in the north-eastern provincial capital Trabzon, for domestic and international trade a vital port city, 40 were Armenian and 42, Pontic Greek. According to a 1913 study on Anatolia by the Armenian parliamentarian and writer Krikor Zohrab, of the 166 importers, 141 were Armenians and 13, Turks. Of the 9,800 shopowners and craftsmen, 6,800 were Armenians and 2,550, Turks; of the 150 exporters, 127 were Armenians and 23 Turks; of the 153 industrialists, 130 were Armenians and 20 were Turks; and finally, of the 37 bankers, 32 were Armenians. In the six eastern provinces, 32 Armenian moneylenders plied their trade versus only 5 Turkish ones. On the eve of the genocide, in early 1915, of the 264 Ottoman industrial establishments, only 42 belonged to Muslims and 172 to non-Muslims.” 5

These figures alone indicate the extent of economic destruction willfully carried out by the Ottoman government, which put the country’s development back a century—a fact overlooked by the heated antagonists of imperialism in Turkey who are, of course, against nationalism but are unable to look and see beyond the horizon of Turkish nationalism.

Now, returning to Marsovan, only four years after Ahmet Serif confessed his jealousy of Armenian life there, the Armenians of Marsovan were wiped out and their wealth plundered. Nothing was left for Ahmet Serif to be jealous of. Islam reigned everywhere.

The extermination of the Armenians of Marsovan—half of the total population of 25,000 in 1915—began in early May with searches of arms, accompanied by arrests and tortures. “On Saturday 26th June, about 1 p.m., the gendarmes went through the town gathering up all the Armenian men they could find—old and young, rich and poor, sick and well. In some cases houses were broken into, and sick men dragged from their beds. They were imprisoned in the barracks, and during the next few days were sent off towards Amasia in batches of from thirty to one hundred and fifty. They were sent on foot and many were robbed of shoes and other articles of clothing. Some were in chains.” 6 On July 3 or 4, the women and children of the town were ordered to get ready to leave on the following Wednesday. But it started even earlier. On Tuesday, at about 3:30 a.m., people were ordered to start moving at once. “Some were dragged from their beds without even sufficient clothing.” The deportation continued at intervals for about two weeks. It was estimated that only a few hundred Armenians were left out of some 12,000. Even the Armenian girl students, teachers, and officials of the American College were sent away. The bulk of the deportees were massacred on their way to Amasya shortly after their departure.

What Ahmet Serif admired and hated at the same time was destroyed, with property changing hands, as well. The much-envied was theirs at last. “In Merzifon the houses of Armenian deportees were occupied by Ottoman government officials. The furniture was often stolen to furnish private homes as well as government buildings. In as much as the Abandoned Properties Commission could function properly, it stored unlooted furniture in the Armenian church. The more common things are thrown into an empty square and auctioned or sold for a song.” 7

Yes, we don’t need any formal legal framework to acknowledge that denial is a hate crime and that denialist discourse is hate speech, but let’s nevertheless remember what the European Union—at whose door Turkey has been knocking for years, furious at the hosts’ lack of hospitality when the door is not opened wide—has laid down about hate speech and hate crime. In 2009, the Council of Europe published the “Manual on Hate Speech” by Anne Weber. The aim of the manual was “to clarify the concept of hate speech and guide policy makers, experts, and society as a whole on the criteria followed by the European Court of Human Rights in its case law relating to the right to freedom of expression,” and to single out what should not be considered within the boundaries of the right to freedom of expression. In doing that, the manual refers to Recommendation No.7 released by the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance (ECRI), covering recommendations for the national legislation of European Council Member States (which includes Turkey) to combat racist expression. “Public expression, with a racist aim, of a racist ideology, or the public denial, with a racist aim, of crimes of genocide or crimes against humanity or war crimes should also be penalized by law,” read Recommendation No. 7. Reference is made in the manual to Article 4 of the proposal for a council framework decision on combating racism and xenophobia, where the intentional committed acts are listed as punishable criminal offense. One such offense reads as the “public condoning for a racist or xenophobic purpose of crimes of genocide, crimes against humanity, and war crimes as defined in Articles 6, 7 and 8 of the Statute of the International Criminal Court.” 8

Now, such a punishable criminal offense occurs in one’s every-day life in Turkey—at schools, in the street, on mainstream TV channels and dailies, by reputable professors, well-known journalists, historians, politicians, and even parliament members. Giving examples would be another topic to be dealt with in another article.

Genocide is not only killing, is not only plunder, is not only rape; it is the condemnation to death under unimaginably inhuman conditions, and being made to witness that condemnation. Here is an account of an eye-witness in Aleppo, one of the destinations designated for the deportees: “One sees them in Aleppo on pieces of waste ground, in old buildings, courtyards and alleyways, and their condition is simply indescribable. They are totally without food and are dying of starvation. If one looks into these places where they are living one simply sees a huddled mass of dying and dead, all mixed up with discarded, ragged clothing, refuse and human excrement, and it is impossible to pick out any one portion and describe it as being a living person. A number of open carts used to parade the streets, looking out for corpses, and it was a common sight to see one of these carts pass containing anything up to ten or twelve human bodies, all terribly emaciated.”9

These people were the ones Ahmet Serif had admired, envied, and hated—for their faces from which “life and vitality burst forth,” and for their capacity to enjoy “the good things of life much more.”

Denial of what happened to them is a hate crime, and every word that serves to demean the crime is hate speech.

***

1. Hans-Lukas Kieser, Nearest East–American Millennialism and Mission to the Middle East, Temple University Press, Philadelphia, Pa., 2010, p. 77. The quotation is from Tanin, July 27, 1911; transliterated ed., Ahmet Şerif, Tanin, ed. Mehmed Ç. Börekçi (Ankara, Turkey: TTK, 1999), vol. 1, 257-58, “A Turkish Correspondent’s Views” in the Orient (April 27, 1910).

2. Kieser, Nearest East, pp. 76-77. Serif, Tanin, vol. 1, 186-87.

3. Ugur Umit Ungor and Mehmet Polatel, Confiscation and Destruction: The Young Turk Seizure of Armenian Property, Continuum International Publishing Group, London, New York, 2011, p.26.

4. ibid., preface, p. X.

5. ibid., pp. 18-19.

6. Toynbee and Bryce, The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915-1916, ed., Ara Sarafian, Gomidas Institute, 2005. “Marsovan: Narrative of the Principal of the College at Marsovan,” communicated by the American Committee for Armenian and Syrian Relief, p. 354.

7. Ungor and Polatel, p. 26.

8. See http://book.coe.int/ftp/3342.pdf.

9. Toynbee and Bryce, p. 559.

avatar

Ayse Gunaysu

Ayse Gunaysu is a professional translator, human rights advocate, and feminist. She has been a member of the Committee Against Racism and Discrimination of the Human Rights Association of Turkey (Istanbul branch) since 1995, and is a columnist for Ozgur Gundem. Since 2008, she writes a column titled "Letters from Istanbul," for the Armenian Weekly.

42 Comments

  1. Ms. Gunaysu, you remain committed to the spirit of truth, and for that we Armenians thank you.  I completely agree with your suggestion that denial is a form of hate speech and hope the EU sees this as well.  Until Turkey stops teaching lies in its schools and fundamentally transforms the anti-Armenian racism in its society, it is demonstrating contempt for ECRI Recommendation 7 and for general principles of equality accepted by democratic, peace-loving nations.
     

  2. Once again and as only she can do, Ayse Gunaysu has bored through all the accumulated mists of time and the labyrinthine distortions of the denialists to deliver us to the plain truth of ground zero. Thank you.  

  3. You are an absolute brilliant writer.. Thank you for standing up for what is right and what is just.. Your article brought shivers on my spine.. Your description of what is hate and hate speech is what every nation who rejects what happened to Armenians as Genocide should read…

    Those denialist that deny the facts, should take your article and study it over and over..  

    Thank you .. Thank you.. Thank you

    Gayane  

  4. A very insightful article. Having studied the American influence in the Near East for over a decade, the article is factually spot on! Ayse has presented the history so accurately.

  5. Ms. Gunaysu, Thank you for speaking the truth for the Armenian Genocide.  It is obvious to me that out of love towards your people, you wish to pick them up from darkness and treachery of denials to accept it, and live and become civilized among nations.  In the meantime, it is only fair for all of us Armenians to finally have closure having dealt with a denialist Turkish government for over 96 years.

  6. Well done article. Though, it should also be mentioned that 1) Armenians were still living on their ancestral land after many thousands of years – they were not in a foreign country…it was THEIR country, no matter who the rulers were and 2) that the Ottoman Empire was bankrupt on many levels, and this led to the development of a system of state terrorism and state sponsored murder and theft, as a way of refilling state coffers and transferring the wealth of the native born, indigenous peoples, to the conqueror class and their proxies. It should be remembered that run of the mill, ordinary Turks did not benefit, it was largely those with ties to the CUP and Ataturk who were rewarded handsomely for their crimes against humanity. 

       

  7. Thank you again Ayse Gunaysu. I cannot add anything more than what the other commentators have said in admiration of your courage and humanity. I wish you good health and long life, because the thoughts of people like you can help finally establish peace in the region instead of continuing hate and hostility. I also wish that the Turkish media would one day have the courage to publish your articles.  

  8. Ms. Ayse ,how about immigrating to great great great armenia? You will be verry happy there . but a little hungry …

  9. Ms. Gunaysu, I am sure you know enough to ignore certain low-minded comments. 
    I am just wondering if this article or another version of it was published in Turkey?

  10. Ms. Gunaysu,

    Thank you for a wonderful and thoughtful article. As another reader said I can’t add anything that hasn’t already been said and by those much more eloquent than myself. My prayers are with you. May God save you and protect you. I wish you a very happy and healthy long life.

    Necati, your “love it or leave” it attitude reflects once again the intolerant and undemocratic Turkish attitude. You might have learned something had you paid attention to what Ms Gunaysu was saying in the article instead of doling out the usual fascist nonsense. I am certain Ms Gunaysu will not only be welcome in Armenia but in a multitude of states where the Armenian Diaspora resides and no she won’t go hungry. We will make sure of that!!!

  11. Of course Necati…. of course it HAD to be you to say something stupid like that..you know very well Ms. Gunaysu will be well taken care of because not only she will be able to visit All of Armenia but she will be welcomed with open arms.. and by the way, where you live now is not even yours.. so instead of jumping up and down in joy from constant stupid comments, why don’t you ask yourself.. do i even deserve to be living in this country? who am i really???  is this even my country?? where did my ancestors come from? oh wait.. of course all of the answers to my questions lie on these pages and then some….

      

  12. …shocking malnutrition in Armenia, while children in Turkey are very well fed and happy, feasting on caviar and  delicious Kobe Beef (get it?), expensive cheeses, the best cold cuts, lobster tails…
     

    Another obvious example of the superiority of Turks, and the inferiority  and stupidity of Armenians who stubbornly refuse all the generous Turkish offers to open the borders and allow free trade. After which Armenians will be as prosperous as those living in beautiful mansions in  occupied Western Armenia (aka Eastern Dumpster Turkey). Where every house has indoor plumbing, kitchens have granite countertops, hardwood flooring,  and all the roads are paved. Meanwhile, malnutrition  rages in Armenia. Stats from UN prove it.
     

    ARMENIA
    Children under 5 moderately or severely underweight, percentage
    Year Value
    [1998  3.9] [2000  2.6] [2005  4]
    Children under 5 severely underweight, percentage
    Year Value
    [1998  0.6] [2000  0.2] [2005  0.1]
     
     
    TURKEY
    Children under 5 moderately or severely underweight, percentage
    [Year Value]
    [1993  10.4] [1995  10.3] [1998  8.3] [2003  3.9] [2008  2.8]
    Children under 5 severely underweight, percentage
    [Year Value]
    [1993  1.9] [1995  3.4]  [1998  1.4]  [2003  0.6]   [2008  0.3]

    Source: UN
    http://www.indexmundi.com/armenia/child-malnutrition.html
    http://www.indexmundi.com/turkey/child-malnutrition.html
     
    Let’s look at a couple of  same-year stats:
    Children under 5 moderately or severely underweight, percentage
    TURKEY:    1998        8.3%
    ARMENIA:  1998        3.9% (2X better: ouch)
     
    Children under 5 severely underweight, percentage
    TURKEY:      1998   1.4%
    ARMENIAN:   1998   0.6% (2X better: ouch)
     
     
    Let’s look at a couple of near-year stats:
    Children under 5 moderately or severely underweight, percentage
    TURKEY:     2008       2.8%
    ARMENIA:   2005      4%  (OK we are a little behind here)
     
    Children under 5 severely underweight, percentage
    TURKEY:    2008   0.3%
    ARMENIAN:2005   0.1% (we are 3X better, even with Turks having 3 years on us: ouch)
     
     
    Amazing: with all the massive advantages given to Turks by the Wealthy  Christian West, all the US$ billions Turks stole from Christian Armenians in the Muslim Ottoman Turkey,  and all the Hell Armenia has had to endure since her independence – she still manages to feed her children better than Turks.
     
    How is that possible ? What kind of people are these Armenians ? My God, if only the 2 million were not murdered: imagine the Paradise on Earth they would have created.
     
     
    I tell ya: if I wasn’t born Armenian, I would have  injected myself with some of them magnificent Armenian genes. Thems Armenians are amazing folks.
     
     
    And you  Turks: aren’t you guys the least bit embarrassed ? With all the unfair advantages you guys have, and all  the illegal roadblocks thrown against RoA by you and your Neocon buddies, Armenians still take care of their children better than you – by a wide margin.
     
     
    And finally: can you Turks send some adults to do literary battle with us ? this is embarrassing for you guys: it’s not even close. 

  13. above post in response to 

    ‘Ms. Ayse ,how about immigrating to great great great armenia? You will be verry happy there . but a little hungry …’ 

  14. Gunaysu obviously does not visit these pages too often or she really would have found out what true hate speech and denial look like.

  15. Murat,

    I think you miss a point.  Ayse herself is in an endless hate and denial for some reason unknown. I think it would be no use for her to see such people who have same mentality.

    Maybe this is also the reason  for her not to visit AW.since nothing different.

  16. ANI said: ” I am certain Ms Gunaysu will not only be welcome in Armenia but in a multitude of states where the Armenian Diaspora resides and no she won’t go hungry. We will make sure of that!!!”

    Thanks Ani…! on behalf of ms  ayse

  17. Murat:  since you do visit these pages, please kindly provide examples of what true hate speech and denial look like in your humble opinion.

  18. [‘Necati Genis August 16, 2011 
    Ms. Gayane, (or, should i call you the last samurai?) Even though you mention my name  in your every other post, i will keep silence until You or AW invites me back to  commenthere in AW .’] 


    Neither Gayane nor AW invited you back. So, why are you back commenting here @AW ?
    What excuse are you going to concoct now ?
     

  19. I am confused. Here we go

    YEREVAN, Armenia — For many visitors to Armenia, the center of the capital resembles almost any other city in Europe. As in Baku and Tbilisi, new hotels, restaurants and boutiques have sprung up where once stood communal markets and gray, drab shops selling wares that the majority could afford.
    But travel just ten minutes from the city center and it’s as if you’ve entered another world. Roads have deteriorated, buildings are in disrepair and some have even collapsed. And although the center of the city is illuminated by hundreds of neon signs and billboards when the sun goes down, the rest of the capital instead descends into darkness. Poverty is widespread.
    According to official government statistics, almost half the population lives below the national poverty line with thirteen percent living in extreme poverty. In 2002, salaries averaged just $50 a month while pensions were even lower at $10. According to the National Statistics Service of the Republic of Armenia, seventy percent of the population lives on a staple diet of bread, potatoes and macaroni. As a result, the United Nations concludes that the issue of survival is still vital for many Armenians.
    “When we talk about poverty in Armenia,” says Ashot Yesaian, First Deputy Minister at the Ministry of Social Security, “we are talking about people who cannot even afford to eat. Among potential claimants [for social benefits] are families with young children who have no money for even bread.”
     
    Living on the Edge
    In a small room of a derelict house situated in Agarak, half an hour away from Yerevan, one such family burns plastic and rubber to stay warm during the winter months. The walls of the room should be white but, like the three children that resemble paupers from a Dickensian novel, they are black and covered in soot.
    A social worker stands calmly as the children’s uncle articulates his anger. The Government’s National Commission for Minors has decided that the children must be removed for their own safety and placed in a Children’s Home. An international organization has been called in to do the dirty work for them.
    Without the children, the family will find it impossible to survive. Every day, they beg for scraps and change in the nearby village. Faced with the prospect of his only source of income being taken away, the uncle waves a knife in the air before emotion finally overcomes him. His legs give way and he collapses into a heap on the floor.
    Families like this are representative of the poorest of the poor in Armenia. They are unable to feed or clothe themselves; their children rarely attend school and in some cases, are not even officially registered as having been born. With no official documents, they are unable to receive social benefits or medical assistance.
    An underclass is forming in Armenia, a world away from the image that the Government would like to portray to its large and influential Diaspora. It is, however, one closer to the reality than that depicted in a hundred coffee-table books and postcards of monasteries and churches photographed against scenic landscapes.
    Some even rationalize the situation by arguing that conditions are only bad in the regions of the Republic but there are just as serious concerns with poverty in the cities. In fact, the United Nations considers that urban poverty can be far more desperate than that which faces villagers who can at least live off the land.
    In Erebuni, one of the capital’s poorest residential districts, approximately two hundred families inhabit a dilapidated hostel complex that once accommodated workers from the nearby chemical factory. The condition of the building should be enough to raise alarm in most civilized countries but the local council says that it is none of their concern. There are no windows left on the stairwell now exposed to the elements, and the elevators no longer work after residents cannibalized their innards long ago.
    A four year old child pushed another on this stairwell last summer and one and half year old Isabella fell through a hole in the railings seven floors to her death. Her mother, Yevgenia, shrugs off her loss although from time to time, tears still swell in her eyes when she remembers.
    Yevgenia has four other children to bring up in two tiny rooms furnished only by three rusting, metal bed frames and a divan covered with rags that serve as bedclothes. They’ve lived in this apartment for over a decade now and don’t even have running water. Her children instead collect water from those more fortunate living below.
    Now, her children no longer beg on the streets after Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) included them in their Prevention program but that is not to say that their situation has improved. Somewhat ironically, although most of the inhabitants of the hostel are living in abject poverty, only two fall within the remit of the international medical organization.
    “I agree that many families in this building live in very difficult conditions,” admits Samuel Hanryon, MSF’s former Country Director, “but their situation is not the same. For example, we can only work with two of these families because there is a problem with violence. The needs are enormous in Armenia but we are not the Government…”
    Which is probably just as well.
    Across the road, two former officials have erected large and opulent mansions, an arrogant display of wealth to contrast against the extreme poverty opposite.
     

     

  20. …yeah John, post the link. Let’s see the source. While you are at it, also post the links to the ones about your countrymen Azeris living in shipping containers, while Aliyev builds shiny new skyscrapers in Baku, and parks his US$ billions in Dubai.

    Also post some links about abject poverty that exists in Eastern Dumpster Turkey.

    And next time instead of pasting only a few pages, why don’t you past the entire Encyclopedia Britannica. 

  21. Excerpts from [Encyclopedia of Global Health (4 Vol. Set ) by Yawei Zhang (Jan 9, 2008)] Volume 1, Page 198.
     
    “From 1920 to 1991, Azerbaijan was part of Soviet Union. It’s population is about 8 million. Almost 60 percent of the population live below the poverty level.”
    “Today, the government spends $7 per capita on healthcare. Medical personnel are only paid about $10 per month; physicians earn less than $100 a month. Equipment is outmoded and many medical procedures are outdated.”
     
    “About 40 percent of childbearing women are anemic”
    “Azerbaijan also has some of the highest infant and child mortality rates in Europe”
    “A 2000 survey found that 20 percent of Azerbaijani children under 5 showed stunted growth, a key indicator of malnutrition”
    “A 2001 study found that 32 percent of children under 5 were anemic”

  22.  
    TURKEY    Chronic malnutrition in under-5 group 15%  (2006)
    ARMENIA  Chronic malnutrition in under-5 group  4%   (2006) 4X better.
     
    TURKEY     Infants with low birth weight                16%  (2006)
    ARMENIA  Infants with low birth weight                   7%  (2006) 2X better.
     
    Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2205969/table/T1/
     
    Still confused, John.
     
     
    In the United States, where I reside, Per-Capita GDP is  US$47,000 (2010).
    For comparison, Turkey Per-Capita is US$12,300 (2010).
     
    There is extreme poverty in  many areas of one of the wealthiest countries in world.
    I can paste hundreds of  heart-wrenching stories of families in US living in abject poverty.
    There are people in the 2nd wealthiest country in the world living in their cars.
     
    Here:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/us/02cars.html
    http://missionlocal.org/2010/12/people-living-in-cars-upset-business/
     
     
    So spare us the sob stories from Armenia. We know all about her problems.
    Let me repeat:  despite all the efforts of  Turkey, Azerbaijan, and their Neocon buddies – war, blockage, constant existential threat, constant threats of war –  Armenia is doing quite well, thank you.
    Nobody is claiming Armenia is the Switzerland of Caucasus: she has lots of problems.
    So does Azerbaijan with all of their free US$ Billions  gushing out of the ground.
    So does Turkey which has been on money-transfusion regime from US and EU since it joined the Christian Club – NATO. Let’s see you  guys survive even 1 year without Europe or US holding you up.

  23. Avery,

    It’d sure be nice if you knew what you were talking about! Armenia lives for handouts!! Must I remind you of Armenia’s economic standing (only Madagascar is worse)? Without my tax dollars going to one of the most corrupt and religiously oppressive nations on the planet, and also without the Russian military there to protect you (LMAO), Armenia would be the typical professional beggars that they’ve been for the past century! So cry me a river and read a book for once (not the typical ARF dashnak Armenian propaganda)! 

  24. Robert: 

    It sure would be nice if you Turks kept a single promise. You guys keep complaining about ArmenianWeekly and you can’t stay away. 

    What happened ? Didn’t you promise not to come back ? Why are you even here commenting ? Why don’t you go and comment @TodaysZaman and @Hurriyet ?
     
    here is what you wrote a while back:  [from the HAMSHEN Armenians to Resettle thread – May18, 2011 “ 
    “…..To all of the ARF posters on this site,…….”……  “ As for me and this site, I may return one day, after there has been a change in the editor’s position”]
     
    Didn’t really think we’d forget your solemn promise, did you ?
    Maybe you best admit you like ArmenianWeekly, and you like all the, quote, ‘ARF posters’ on this site: otherwise, why do you keep coming back for more ?

    And if it weren’t for the US$ Billions Muslim Ottoman Turk and CUP Turk mass murderers stole from Armenian Christians, if it weren’t for the US$ 100s of Billions the Christian West has pumped into Turkey since it joined NATO, if it weren’t for all the technology the advanced Christian West has given to Muslim Turkey, all the rich Christian Western markets Muslim Turkey is allowed to sell to – Turkey would be as advanced as Afghanistan. 
     
    Read a book about Taliban in Afghanistan: that’s where Turkey is headed.
    Read about that young Turk woman that got attacked and beat up on a public bus in Istanbul (!) because she was wearing shorts.  

  25. John, our Turk guest:  I ran into an interesting article the other day. It’s from your own  Hurriyet Daily News. The title is [“Report sheds light on widespread polygamy inTurkey” (January 11, 2011)]. Look it up. After you look it up, why don’t you paste the entire article @AW. You like pasting cheerful stories from Armenia. How about some from Azerbaijan and Turkey: you know, for balance and such.
     
    Here are excerpts from that article:
     
    …“in Turkey, more than 186,000 women share their husbands with a second wife, “
     
    “ nearly 5.5 million women were married at or before the age of 18, while a bridewealth – meaning money paid by the groom or his family, also known as bride price – has been asked for more than 2 million women.”
     
    Countrywide, 39.7 percent of marriages involve women who are 18 or under, for a total of 5,439,367 young brides. According to the researchers, early marriages may cause girls to abandon their education, face reduced employment options, have their physical and psychological health negatively affected and be subject to more pressure and violence. Having children at a young age may have a negative effect on the health of both mothers and their offspring.”
     
    “…The research also revealed that 12.4 percent of marriages are between first-degree relatives, something that affects 1,700,062 women,”
     
     Robert, our Turk guest: you object  to your alleged  tax dollars being  allegedly sent to Armenia ? I object to my tax dollars being sent to a medieval country were there is widespread polygamy and girls younger than 18 (age of consent) are forced to marry.
     
     
    Fact is, except for the part very near Europe, most of Turkey is stuck in medieval times. And guess why the part near Europe is advanced ? That’s right – advanced, enlightened Europe is Christian. Same religion of those 2 Million Christian Armenians your Turk ancestors exterminated.

  26. Brave Avery JAN.. BRAVO…. EXCELLENT DATA.. EXCELLENT… it just shows how illeterate the denialists are who pretend to be know it all but in reality they are nobody… all they are good at is spreading hate… but unlucky them, there is no win for them …Facts speak themselves…

    Avery jan, you providing facts is what every great commentator is all about…… those who speak out of their you know what are very obvious to us.. they are the denialists by the names of John, Murat, Necati, and Robert….they speak of hate speech on our pages but rather than actually reading what is provided and get over their amnesia or forever denialist mode, all they do is repeat the same thing over and over.. like a retarded parrot who only knows few things and repeats it again and again….THEIR OWN HATE SPEECH toward Armenians.. but it is for their own grief because they validate our point of what true hate speech is… they are just digging their own sorry holes and make them look like you know whats…  better for us.. too bad for them…

    Gayane

  27. Avery jan… of course Robert will be back on these pages.. of course Necati will be back on these pages…  they don’t keep promises.. their OWN promises…only those who have no honor, no shame and no respect will do something like that.. so not surprised…

    Also, i bet they are bored to tears on their own sites. which is why they have to come back to ours because they just can’t get enough of the truth…:) they are addicted to the truth…eventually they will turn to the truth and maybe convert… would not that be a somethin””’??? oh but wait.. but we are talking about people like Robert, Necati and alike.. bummer……

    Gayane

  28. Robert the Turk..

    Read this.. of course this is your own original comment but with few things replaced.. you would not like that right??? if not, then next time when you start typing with your anti-Armenian fingers, think twice before you do…….just because you have nothing constructive to say, it does not mean you can spread hate speech…

    Without my tax dollars going to one of the most corrupt and religiously oppressive nations on the planet, and also without the US and European community there to protect you (LMAO), TURKEY would be the typical professional beggars that they’ve been for the past , present and future… So cry me a river and read a book for once (not the typical ANTI_ARMENIAN and TURKISH DENIALIST GOVT  propaganda)! 

    Good Day SIR!

  29. Avery,

    You’re correct, I have come back, not because I intentially broke my word, but because it’s impossible to defend oneself from all of you without the editorial board constantly censoring and/or deleting our posts (because it may cause some of you to think about the possibility that there may acctually be more than just your versions of reality). Truth be told, there are problems in both nations. Both are trying to overcome them, and some positive stride have occurred. And yes, AW is not an entirely bad site. The piece with Alicia’s recent passing from lymphoma, as well as other pieces that don’t constantly blare “GENOCIDE”, are well written and a pleasure to read. Now, do I think that there’s hope for Turks and Armenians living together in peace and without hate? Actually, believe it or not, I really do! Why not, we’ve lived together in peace for centuries. Take away all of the agitators and instigators, and we can once again start moving in that direction. And no, this sin’t some kind of a joke or ploy! I very recently just lost my brother to heart disease. I’ve come to a point in my life that hate and this constant “one up-manship” is wrong. I still believe that we need to debate if we are to settle our differences and be able to come to terms and reconcile, but ever since my personal family loss, my feelings and outlook towards life have truly changed. It doesn’t matter whether you nor anyone else believes me. Life is too damn short to continue this nonesense. I guess what I’m trying to say to you, and to the rest of you on this site, is that I’m sorry for any smartass remarks I may have made, as well as any personal insults I may have said in the past. It was wrong and not a mature approach to deal with a complex issue. Sometimes, one’s feelings just well up from deep inside and come forth before one has a total grasp of those feelings, and translated into words that may be hurtful, ugly and/or misconstrued. I think that we’re all guilty of this to varying extents. If you all can forgive me for my past and recent transgressions, I certainly, and already have, forgiven all of you for your negative contributions as well. I believe that we all can be friends. I extend my hand to you all in burying the hatchet and taking those first important steps to becoming friends once more. I don’t mean to ramble (it’s not always easy to find the words one feels), but there it is. I’d be more than happy to come back to give positive inputs if so invited. If not, then I’ll understand and bother you no more (no grudges held either). Sometimes we all have to take chances in life!    

  30. To the editorial board:

    I’ve said/written some cruel and neagative things about you. For this I sincerely apologize. I have no real excuse other than the frustration of having my comments censored or deleted, and thus being unable to defend myself at crucial periods. Regardless though, those reasons are no excuse for some of the horrible things that I had written to you. It was wrong of me and I’m sorry. No one should be treated like that. If you can forgive my insolent behavior, then I feel that we can all move on. I’m sure that you’ll agree that we both made mistakes. I’d like to come back from time to time, to give positive inputs if possible. If we can be on good terms, then we can work together in a positive direction and in a mature manner.  

  31. The two ‘Robert’ icons don’t match (one red, one black). 
     
    Two Roberts?  Two different computers?  A joke?  A brother’s heart attack causes a different kind of ‘heart attack’ in our buddy Robert?  Or an Armenian posing as ‘Robert’ to play a joke on the ‘heartless’ original? 
     

  32. Robert … for a minute I thought I was reading someone else’s comment..such a contrast from your previous posts…

    I am sorry to hear about your loved one passing away.. It is always a tragedy to lose someone you love and close to you.. God knows, we Armenians know that feeling of loss and pain very well..

    However, I am just sad that something like this had to happen in your life to turn the tide around… all those times when a comment popped up by you.. it would have saved us great deal of back and forth if you only stopped and asked yourself…why am I doing this, why am I saying this .. why am I sharing such filth with Armenians… knowing very well what my people went through and going through was and is pure pain and unacceptable treatement…Well you learn from your mistakes I guess…

     Do not want to sound insensitive; however our reaction to your comments to some extent were justified regardless if they were a bit harsh at times..it was not done intentionally or with cruel intentions; however they were deserved…but in any case, enough said… i just hope that what you expressed here is not a simple decoy to deflate our annoyance with your past insensitive comments.. but truly a confession that maybe it is time for you and hopefully many of your friends who are still in denial to come out of their comma and understand what truly happened at a more deeper level .    

    Again, sorry for your loss…

    Gayane  

       You also  you said—-

     The piece with Alicia’s recent passing from lymphoma, as well as other pieces that don’t constantly blare “GENOCIDE”, are well written and a pleasure to read.

    And why are you so afraid of articles that blare GENOCIDE??? is it because you know it happened and you refuse to admit it?? Is it because you refuse to shed yourself of your Anti-Armenian cloak, you continue your denial and hate???? I would say yes indeed….anyone who is running from the truth would rather read stories that do not relate to the issue at hand.. who would want to deal with that right??? anything but Genocide, reparation, apology, return of all wealth would be interesting to you Robert.. as long as it does not relate to Genocide.. but guess what?? you can hide but you can’t run from this Robert.. This will haunt your country and your govt until someon answers to all the autrocities and all the looping and stealing of my people’s wealth..understood??…..

  33. Boyajian jan- it is like this Robert guy whoever it is is playing with the editorial board and the posters on these pages…. 

    I was a bit skeptical myself to read about such a revelation in Robert The Turk…. i knew it was abit too good to be true but i gave him the benefit of the doubt.. however, if he is pulling our leg with this story, he better not come back on these pages or else he will be called out so many times with such force on these pages, that he will regret playing with people like that…  

    Gayane

     

  34. Thank you for your kind words. I know that they were sincere. May we all strive to settle and overcome our differences and once again become the brothers and sisters God intended for us to be.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.


*