Speaker Pelosi made a choice yesterday.
She decided not to allow a vote on the Armenian Genocide Resolution, H.Res.252, despite a broad bipartisan majority of Members ready to vote for this human rights measure, despite the relative silence of the White House in opposition to its adoption (particularly compared to the Bush Administration’s attack in October 2007), and despite the fact that Turkey’s ability to fight its passage was severely limited by the growing anger among legislature over Ankara’s highly controversial policies in the Middle East and Sudan.
With the passage of H.Res.252, yesterday should have been a day of pride in America’s progress in standing up for human rights, and unconditionally against all genocide. It should have marked the beginning of the end of U.S. complicity in Turkey’s denial of truth and justice for the Armenian Genocide. All the stars were aligned: The right resolution, with the right support, at the right time, with—we thought—the right Speaker.
Speaker Pelosi had a pro-H.Res.252 majority in hand. She had the full authority as Speaker to have this measure brought to the House floor, and she had the opportunity repeatedly, over the past several weeks and throughout the four-year term of her Speakership, to see this measure adopted.
What she lacked, it now is painfully clear, is the will, at the very moment it mattered, to actually act upon her rhetoric of more than two decades in support of U.S. recognition of the Armenian Genocide.
We may never know if Nancy Pelosi’s words of all these years were insincere, or if she simply lacked the courage of her convictions. Perhaps the only clue is that she sought out token “Armenian” cover for her retreat from principle, in the form of an Armenian Assembly press release praising her actions, issued even before the House adjourned. This move signaled, sadly, that the Speaker never intended to follow through on her pledge to bring the Armenian Genocide Resolution to the floor. It speaks, as well, to the sorry state of the Assembly as a “store-front” that, while irrelevant in our community life and advocacy work, still gets marched out by the State Department every few years to act as a fig-leaf for its policies on TARC, the Hoagland nomination, the protocols, and, most recently, on H.Res.252.
Let us take from this experience an added measure of resolve to grow stronger in our advocacy and smarter in terms of where to place our trust as Armenians.
I will not vote for Obama and his Clones ever.
In my opinion it was the Armenian voters that Defeated NY. Governor Dewey when I was very young every time that anyone mentioning. NY. Governor Dewey’s name; my uncle Would bend all out of shape and say things I have not ever heard of Dewey’s name before, so in late 70is when I could understand a bit about politics I asked Uncle who is this Dewey?
Affectively in late 40is Armenians were taking turk Government to court in NYC. About Armenian clams and turk Government pays Million or 2 to Dewey to defend turkey, so Dewey defends turkey and dose a job on to the Armenians. NOT one Armenian ever forgot that Dewey’s going against a small group of Genocide survivors
[[at that time in the whole US may be there were 10.000 or less Armenians]]
Few years down the line when favorite to WIN Governor Dewey was running against an unknown candidate from a Midwest farm town. Let me ask, what do you think all those Armenians DID to Governor Dewey?
http://www.google.com/search?q=Dewey+Truman&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us%3AIE-SearchBox&ie&oe&rlz=1I7ADRA_en
I never will vote for the hypocrites in the US senate or House. Why can’t you people see through them? They are playing you like old records. Screw them all, until they come to you on their knees for your vote.
Re: “until they come to you on their knees for your vote”
I don’t see that happening. We make up less than 1/300th of the US population. Baykaruh guh sharounagenk; touk esbasetsek ayn orvan vor ourishneruh tser mod kan.
you will never vote for the democrats. then you will vote for the republicans. when the republicans do the same what the democrats have just done the you will vote for the democrats again. When will you understand Turkey is much more important for the USA than armenians in America?
Lets get smarter. Elect the officials that are pro Armenian; but go beyong this Recognition goal, and lets start to actively pursue Reparations.
Garo
i disagree with ahmet and i agree with garo.
ahmet: when are YOU going to realize that THE U.S. IS NOT THE ONLY PLAYER IN THE WORLD. an important one at that, yes, but again not the only one. it is a matter of time, we have waited all these years, certainly a few more will not make much of a difference. but when it happens turkey will have more than egg on it’s face. it will have international condamnation, what are they going to do then, besides paying billions in reparations and giving back stolen lands, (eastern turkey is western Armenia.) i guess all that will be left for them to do is to go into the poultry business. they have the name for it.
garo: i agree with you 100%. there is enough proof, there are enough undisputable documents and evidence in europe to take this to the high international criminal court at the hague. this should have been done long time ago. the proof is here. a group of high powered Armenian attorneys should get the ball rolling, not in los angeles or paris but at the hague; then the u.s. will listen. an application should be submitted immediately. that in itself will wake up international media.
merry Christmas
gerard
Ahmet: Armenians will understand that turkey is more important for the USA than Armenians in America when turkey will have the courage and acknowledge the heinous crime of systematic annihilation of the whole race. Believe me, even Armenians will attach importance to such open-minded, civilized state of turkey. But when will turks understand that given their nomadic roots and reputation as looters, murderers, and occupiers from the Seljuk times onward, it will take long time fro your nation to mature?
Why don’t we forget about the US and Turkey right now and get the ENTIRE rest of the world (including every state in the US) to learn about and acknowledge there was a genocide in 1915? Then the US and Turkey will look pretty pitiful playing politics with one another.
“Turkey is more important to the US than the Armenians”…Yes Saddam Hussein and Bin Laddin were important to the US at one point too.
Ahmet, bribing and threatening governments in order to avoid justice for the murder of innocent women, men and children, and to continue keeping other people’s properties and countries is a lame lame way to exist. You can buy justice for a while from people, but God’s justice is not on sale! It will cost Turkey much less in the long run if it comes clean about the Genocide and makes reparations. It will also, finally earn respect and acceptance in the world.
Merry Christmas to everyone!
“Turkey is more important to the US than the Armenians”…Yes Saddam Hussein and Bin Laddin were important to the US at one point too.
Ahmet, bribing and threatening governments in order to avoid justice for the murder of innocent women, men and children, and to continue keeping other people’s properties and countries is a lame lame way to exist. You can buy justice for a while from people, but God’s justice is not on sale! It will cost Turkey much less in the long run if it comes clean about the Genocide and makes reparations. It will also, finally earn respect and acceptance in the world. Oops, actally, it will need to let go of Cypress, and repay the Assyrians, Kurds, Greeks, Bulgarians etc etc also.
Merry Christmas to everyone!
It is REALLY time to change everything: tactics, strategy, PRIORITIES, and above all, where to spend money on.
-Why not buy with that money real estate and land in Armenian populeted Javakhk region (in southern Georgia) and along the (rail) road to Batumi,Black Sea.
– Why not buy real estate and land in Armenian liberated territories- into the Caspian see- in the future.
-Why not buy real estate and land in Kurdish populated Eastern Turkey/Western Armenia?
The rest will follow.
I suggest going on the Assembly’s FB page and send a message to the supporters of what they’ve done and it’s long history of working against the Armenian Community’s interests. It’s a good opportunity to use the Assembly’s own Press Release against the organisation. Let it be more of a hollowed out organisation that it currently is.
What a disgrace they are not only to Armenians but to humanity.
If Armenians wants land from Turkey declare war to the Turks. If you are not brave enough SHUT UP, CRY and wait another 100 YEARS!! You will geht nothing without a fight from the Turks!!
Though crudely put by some of my compatriots, you do not demand land from a sovereign nation in courts. As implied, every inch of the place, and more, has been paid in plenty of blood. Your longing for the place (let us not call it Turkey) is understandable, it is a special place. If the desire is so strong, why not actually try going there. Apply for citizenship, start a community in Van, Sivas or Mus. You do not need to come back as conquerers to the land of your ancestors, come back as citizens. Talk is cheap, maybe it is time to put the money where mouth is.
Merry Christmas to all.
Murat, are you offering citizenship? Do you also offer security, freedom of speech, equal rights before the court, freedom of religion, freedom of education, freedom to preserve our history, freedom to name what is Armenian as Armenian… You are right: talk is cheap; unless you are sincerely aiming for reconciliation based on truth and justice.
ALPER,
Boy, you are such a tough guy! Your country spilled so much blood for that land?! Yes, specifically the blood of 1.5 million Turkish women, men and children who happened to be of Armenian descent! What a brave war that was, to first disarm the Armenian population by promising them equality and human rights, then arresting and killing their religious and cultural leaders, killing the Armenian soldiers who were serving in the Turkish army, killing the men and making the women, elderly and children march into the desert with no food! That was a glorious way of conquering Armenia before it could break away from the Ottoman empire! You are now suggesting for the current Armenia with a population of 3 million and 1/10 of its previous lands, to be man enough and attack Turkey with a 50 million population? To get the lands stolen from us with cowardly Genocide? Manly wars are not waged against unarmed innocent civilians! Real men do not hide behind lies! Real men do not hang on to stolen property! Real men do not bribe other countries, with locum to keep quite about 1.5 million civilians who disappeared on their land!
ANCA Champions of the truth!! Armenians made all their points so perfectly. As usual turks were exposed to the World like dogmeat; they Ottoman turkes and turks committed GENOCIDE, turks they aren’t able to APOLIGISE and ask for forgiveness. Devituglu the way he holds his head when he speaks it is hard to hear which end his voice is coming from, More he speaks more the whole World is learning about him, The World witnessed Devituglu to take Pelosi and Obama as low down in to the smelly sewer For conducted his business.
Where are they don’t see them anymore.
It is like quick-send when they get dragged into the GENOCIDE conversation they sink deeper and deeper Into the s**t.
I guess I was directing part of my last comment to our friend Murat who suggested that the Turks have paid for every inch of Western Armenia with plenty of their blood! As if to suggest that there was a war in a traditional sense, between Armenia and Turkey in WWI.
Coming back to the subject at hand, I have to agree with other commentators here about filing claims with the Hague International Human rights and crime courts. The US has not only proven that its values are up for sale by the highest bidder, it has also shown that it can no longer be considered the world leader and authority in human rights. Why waste our time and precious resources barking up a tree that is completely, for now, sold off to foreign countries, like every other US commercial property/companies. For the US to hang on so desperately to Turkey, the country with the all time worst human rights record, says volumes about the current standing of the United States in the world. What a shame for the US federal government to lag behind 41 of its own states and 20 other countries, including Germany, Turkey’s WWI ally, in officially acknowledging the same Genocide that its people condemned the most in 1915! This resolution is a human rights measure. Our main work however, has to start in earnest with the International crime courts.
“Your longing for the place (let us not call it Turkey) is understandable, it is a special place.”
This condescension makes my blood boil. ‘Oh, Armenians can be forgiven for wanting Turkish land, because Turkey is the best country on earth.’
Murat, reality check: we don’t want Asia Minor because it currently belongs to Turkey–we want it because it is our rightful land under international treaties.
Also, your attempt to be dovish and ‘progressive’ by offering citizenship is horribly transparent and hollow. Armenians were once citizens in Asia Minor–that didn’t sit well with Ottoman rulers. We won’t make the same mistake twice.
Katia,
Your definitions of “Real Men” are interesting. Your examples even more so. Tell me honey, do your examples and definitions sound even a bit familiar? Think about it!
Alex et al,
Once again, you’re living in La La Land! Wake up from your perpetual states of delusion and smell reality!
to katia k.
AFERIM katia- you are well spoken (well written), to the point and you sure know your history.
to alper: someone should teach this little (man?) alper that his country really has to learn a few things, unfortunately i have not seen too many schools in this dark land of turkey which probably explains the i.q. level of it’s population.
now- alper dude, one thing they have to learn there is a bit of anatomy, we will not try to test your mind, in your case E does not stand for effort. a human body has a front and a back anatomically speaking, obviously your army has not discovered that, that is why they keep shooting people in the back.
you seem to be deeply interested in this subject. why don’t you give a live speech, let’s see how long you will last. you won’t be shot in the back but we promise you a few rotten tomatoes to your face. (or shoes). my great grandparents were massacred in front of my parents in turkey, they were very young, my father was able to run away, he was ten, he was able to survive by smoking cigarettes that he rolled himself with dried grass to have a feeling of fullness, if it wasn’t for france where 3 of us were born, he probably would have succombed. all his life he sang sad songs in turkish while playing his oud, he died at 58, his heart full of grief. HE HAD NO ANIMOSITY TOWARDS THESE MURDERERS. can you people match that… of course not, you keep on anahilating people.(HRANT DINK).
back to katia: i agree, the hague is the way to go. why have we not thought of that before, would there be some legal reasons for not pursueing this, if so, why was this not studied in the past. time is of the essence.
it would be interesting to have some of our attorneys attend to these questions. ie: reparations in stolen land/money/material goods,lives.
merry Armenian Christmas to all.
gerard
Robert, Robert, Robert…
Speaking in riddles again?
I am sure your ancestors felt very macho when they threw our women in their harems, circumcised our boys and converted them into Islam. And oh yeah, what was wrong with your ancestors that they referred to the six eastern provinces of Turkey as the “Armenian Villayets”? You know, the eastern “Turkish” lands that border modern day Republic of Armenia. If they were always yours, even though you originated from Central Asia, why did your ancestors call them as such?…. Were they lying? Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
And was President Woodrow Wilson lying when he referred to them as Western Armenia?
We can’t both be lying, Robert! One of us is telling the truth! And that’s not a riddle!
The truth. The Ottoman Empire fell apart. It released most of the countries it held. Because the Turkish population was spread into Armenia, losing Armenia would have meant losing the land the Turks were actually living in. They decided to rid the Armenian Vilayets of their indigenous inhabitants with Genocide, and annex the Armenian lands instead of giving them independance. And they lied happily ever after!
Robert
You are blind to the past how can you see anything in to the future You should school you’re self and learn. Coming in here just for the purposes of distorting
My grandmother, a Genocide survivor from the village of Chalgara (Bursa) used to say: If the thief was one of the members of the house, it’s very easy to steal the bull (yez) from the stairs to the roof then out. This is absurd, but is a fact. The only group that backs Genocide resolutions is the Hye Tahd through ANCA and ARF. Neither the Armenian Assembly nor the government of Armenia back such a resolution. What would we expect from the US Cogress when our own government of Armenia is opposing any approach toward this path.
I live in Glendale, Ca., Armenian owned grocery stores are the only ones that promote and sell Turkish products…….. and we want Americans to believe in our case. We’re making fun of ourselves. The thief is from within.
Katia, our tireless fedayouhi, I admire you so much and applaud your strength!
So many queries to reply to.Where shall I begin? let me do it non-chronologically,at ran dom.
1.Why don´t we LODGE CLAIM At Int´l court of justice(ICJ)?
Answer:-Ask our 500 member strong Armenian BAR Association.Tis their task.
2.Why Republic of Armenia has not so far supported Genocide Recognition.
Answer.She has just initiated it,please follow news re recent Conf. in Yerevan,why not earlier? this is a Tiny republic ,a MANOUK infant,19 yrs old ,starting to train muscles and be a young man if not quite a man.Have patience.
3.Why this that,please instead of my answering let me explain a bit ,for near all of you,except turks here have no reasonable argumenmt(s).
Indeed ARF /ANC and let us be fair a few others have also (like my own ex Armenian World Congress (convned first one in 1979 in Paris, then lausanne the 2nd ,3rd back again in Paris) done all our small or large part,contributed.Sorry Again Question
4.Why not a a bigger scale? VERY SIMPLE We have not even upto this minute achieved Tolerance, cooperation amongst all of us and thence not a STRONG STATE/diaspora,alike back to my explanations,rather my experiences of 32 yrs on the activism scene(in Europe mainly).
The Armenian has just a few ¨shortcomings¨ BITZER,in Armenian shall wee say.
A. We are overly a jealousy-nourishing people, B.Non-cooperative, because of the A, of course. C.WE have not accomplished yet another one,i.e. Social formation,what V.oskanian has started by name of Civilitas(rather copied from Euros) mine is UNGERAYNIUTYUN, Societization.Which we can obtain and are thank God beginning to:-
Within work type Ärmenian Professional Colleagues Associations¨pca´S, Five on the scene, The Enginneers 6 sci, The BAR, The Health, The sportive and Jewleers(should encompass furnishings this lattger9 also begin to form the Transport/Trave/Tourism,The Construction , etc., it is in my Scheme,Theses…etc.,
Then once we have formed these globally in all Armenian community country get from them 3-person delegates for their 3 merits, forming ea country´s Central Council to submit to Supreme Western Armenian Supreme CouncilÏn these associations DUAL memberswhip admissible.
Began to commend the ARF/ANC.Theses also can join in with other political party 3 person members and one each from our Spiritual denominations , thus actually FORMING ESTABLISHINGH THE TRUE PARTICIPATION AND REPRESNTATION. For aside from our politico and The Clergy swe now have over a 100,000 PCA (to be formed members) in all sphere of professions well advanced and permit me to say not to be dubbed any more as the Silent Majority…Amot those who do that.We have these, AND IF WE DO NOT FOLLOW UP as just ¨suggested ¨ then God help the Armenians who are as yet a bickering lot and wish to each come up ON THEIR OWN….
Our boys Knew that very well, when some 30 yrs ago let alonge the existing politico -all respect to them and formed their latest militancy and knew when to stop and join up with the NK freedom fighters.Otherwise the aforementioned -agaian with restpect to them- were not ,had not attained andy attn. on the International `political scene!!! they did it.And RA Govt klnows how to respect them at YERABLOUIR and all others.
Best to you all,A healthy healthy thinking wish to all of us and to be <ACTIVE rather than only plan.
G.P: Hama Haigagani SIRO
So many queries to reply to.Where shall I begin? let me do it non-chronologically,at ran dom.
1.Why don´t we LODGE CLAIM At Int´l court of justice(ICJ)?
Answer:-Ask our 500 member strong Armenian BAR Association.Tis their task.
2.Why Republic of Armenia has not so far supported Genocide Recognition.
Answer.She has just initiated it,please follow news re recent Conf. in Yerevan,why not earlier? this is a Tiny republic ,a MANOUK infant,19 yrs old ,starting to train muscles and be a young man if not quite a man.Have patience.
3.Why this that,please instead of my answering let me explain a bit ,for near all of you,except turks here have no reasonable argumenmt(s).
Indeed ARF /ANC and let us be fair a few others have also (like my own ex Armenian World Congress (convned first one in 1979 in Paris, then lausanne the 2nd ,3rd back again in Paris) done all our small or large part,contributed.Sorry Again Question
4.Why not a a bigger scale? VERY SIMPLE We have not even upto this minute achieved Tolerance, cooperation amongst all of us and thence not a STRONG STATE/diaspora,alike back to my explanations,rather my experiences of 32 yrs on the activism scene(in Europe mainly).
The Armenian has just a few ¨shortcomings¨ BITZER,in Armenian shall wee say.
A. We are overly a jealousy-nourishing people, B.Non-cooperative, because of the A, of course. C.WE have not accomplished yet another one,i.e. Social formation,what V.oskanian has started by name of Civilitas(rather copied from Euros) mine is UNGERAYNIUTYUN, Societization.Which we can obtain and are thank God beginning to:-
Within work type Ärmenian Professional Colleagues Associations¨pca´S, Five on the scene, The Enginneers 6 sci, The BAR, The Health, The sportive and Jewleers(should encompass furnishings this lattger9 also begin to form the Transport/Trave/Tourism,The Construction , etc., it is in my Scheme,Theses…etc.,
Then once we have formed these globally in all Armenian community country get from them 3-person delegates for their 3 merits, forming ea country´s Central Council to submit to Supreme Western Armenian Supreme CouncilÏn these associations DUAL memberswhip admissible.
Began to commend the ARF/ANC.Theses also can join in with other political party 3 person members and one each from our Spiritual denominations , thus actually FORMING ESTABLISHINGH THE TRUE PARTICIPATION AND REPRESNTATION. For aside from our politico and The Clergy swe now have over a 100,000 PCA (to be formed members) in all sphere of professions well advanced and permit me to say not to be dubbed any more as the Silent Majority…Amot those who do that.We have these, AND IF WE DO NOT FOLLOW UP as just ¨suggested ¨ then God help the Armenians who are as yet a bickering lot and wish to each come up ON THEIR OWN….
RA Govt klnows how to respect them at YERABLOUIR and all others.
Best to you all,A healthy healthy thinking wish to all of us and to be <ACTIVE rather than only plan.
G.P: Hama Haigagani SIRO
First: Turkey has today a population of 74 million. Second: Turks did not steal land from Armenians, they conquered that land as Seljuk Turks 1071 a.D. from the Byzantian Empire. Since that time its the territory of the Turks. Armenians were tolerated there, nothing else. So don’t think that eastern Turkey was yours. What the whites did with native americans oder Britons did with the Aborigines in Australia, Turks did what was necessary with our “indians”: the Armenians. People like you.
It’s our land, not yours. Don’t forget that.
ADDENDUM,
Once the PCA´s are on the scene ,well formed in all Armenian-dense consituencies,their mingling together-as to theri work type , get to know ea other much better and strive for something that is ESSENTIAL!!! firsst applying by small 3/4 person sub committees to our 5/6 magnates to form the Nucleus of …
The ¨National Investment Trust Fund¨,to these, Lupoise Simon Manoogian(I shall go kneel before her and brother) I suggest Harut Sassounian to Kirk kerkorian, I have Argentinian friend(your Armenia B-Aires Newspaper´s ex editor Sirouyan to go see Mr. Eduardo Ernekian, My friend in U.K. Siamanto to Vatche Manoukian, then another to Cafesjian Gerard this side of the ocean,each TO INVEST NOT GIVE AS DONATION FOR THE WORKING CAPITAL OF THE FUND IN GENEVA,CH, APPOINT THEIR MONETARY EXPERTS each say …2/300 million dollars,then invite the millionaires to chip in..all the waay down to one thousand dollars ionvestors…YOU CALCULATE please HOW LARGE A FUND THIS WILL BECOME. The experts re-investing in foreign Secure Govt. Bonds at 5% per annum interest, half tobe given to investors rest to accumulate and also begin to expend,rather INVEST IN OUR FUTURE-HOPEFULLY VERY SOON,,,,,,,
R E P A T R I A T I O N!!!! to RA/Artsakh and javakhk.THIS IS CASH..THE wESTERN ARMENIAN LANDS ..AS TURKISH GENERAL kENAN eVREN ONCE DECLARED…aRMENIANS WANT LAND? ¨COME AND GET IT¨THIS IS REGISTERED IN OUR eURO aRMENIAN PRESS-whereas we shall first GET THE BLOOD MONEY -IF MY COMPATRIOTS ACCEPT SUGGESTIONS, then by and by when the Kurdiosh issue is ripened, like Vartges Yeghyaian has started in L.A. indivudual(starting stages) lawsuits,until our 500 strong BAR association prepares the main DOSSIER/File to Lodge it at ICJ at the Hague,.All these can come to pass if we COOPERATE,WHETHER AS PCA´s also as POLITICAL PARTIES AND ALSO INDEED THE SPRIRITUAL NOT DISCOURAGE US BUT RATHER SILENTLY ENCOURAGE US. Armenia/Artsakh..don´t worry when they see us WELL ORGANIZED A UNDER ONE SUPREME COUNCIL OF DIASPORA WITH 5 DEPARTMENTS THEY WILL LEND US AN EAR TOO!!!!
Hama Haigagani sIRO,
G-P
“It’s our land, not yours. Don’t forget that.”
Treaty of Sevres, Treaty of Sevres, Treaty of Sevres..don’t forget that.
alper- why don’t you go fishing somewhere else. we don’t mind truthful comments which you do not have. maybe the fishes will listen to you, or maybe you like hunting… go shoot some turkeys.
gerard
to alper: so turkey has a population of 74 million. i guess quantity comes before quality in your case.
Is it any wonder this issue will remain unresolved for another century? Many Armenians here seem to be incapapble of grasping even the fundementals of what was going on during WWI. There has been so much self-propaganda, if a fact fell right on thier head like a ton of rocks, I do not think it would be noticed.
Thank you Gerard, Boyajian jan…
And now, the concept that we were the Turks’ Indians! Well these “Indians” made up the most educated and rich sector in Turkey. (Refer to Davutoglu’s recent comment) The Armenian “Indians” were the ones who even helped draw the Constitution of the Ottoman Empire! They needed to be “tolerated”? They were called the “Loyal Millet”, and were instrumental in the prosperity of the empire, considering that they had to pay much higher taxes than the muslims!
Why is it that Turkey did not massacre the “Indians” of the other lands it “conquered”? Again, because those lands were remote and the Turks were actually living in Armenian lands. Should we let the Romanians, Serbians, Lebanese, Syrians, Greeks, Assyrians, Iraqis, Kurds, Egyptians and Palestinians know that they were all considered “Indians” to the Seljuk Turks who attacked from Central Asia?
@Alex
The Treaty of Lausanne 1923 superseded the Treaty of Sevres. Read it and come back.
@Katia
There were some educated Armenians but not all were educated. 95% of all people in the Ottoman Empire -muslims, christians, jews- could not read and write. Most of the armenians like turks, greeks, arabs were poor villagers.
Murat instead of acting above-it-all like our dear president, why don’t you present us with some of your facts?
Fundamentals during WWI? Okay:
-massacres of Armenians began during late 1914 and early 1915 which became so brutal and genocidal that the Allies issued a condemnation of the “Crimes against Humanity” taking place in Turkey on 27 May 1915, after which point the Tehcir Law was passed to give these crimes a semblance of legality
-this law required the government to make the necessary preparations to return to its rightful Armenian owners all property expropriated during the deportations–knowing that the owners would be killed or exiled, these preparations were never made, proof of which is the fact that Armenian refugees who escaped Turkey with their lives had their passports stamped “Return forbidden”
-Armenians were deported away from the Russian front and INTO other war zones, such as behind the 5th Ottoman Army at Der-Zor. Armenians were also deported from areas hundreds of miles away from any war zone
-Talaat Pasha asked Ambassador Morgenthau for the life insurance claims which American insurance companies had for Ottoman Armenians, claiming “all of them are dead now.”
I can keep going all day…please indulge me Murat on Jevdet Bey and co.
Murat, without the insults, please share the insight we are missing.
I highly doubt that the Armenian issue will remain unresolved for ‘another century.’ Momentum is with us.
Besides, if Turkey looks to the evils of other nations to rationalize their own crimes, than Turks are neither leaders nor moral superiors. The rationalization is tantamount to admission of guilt. The jig is up.
“Let us take from this experience an added measure of resolve to grow stronger in our advocacy and smarter in terms of where to place our trust as Armenians.”
And how? The number of US MPs supporting the recognition decreased spectacularly from 2007 to 2010, and there is no reason to think that this trend will change, quite the contrary. It is not the victory of Guenter Lewy against SPLC, nor David Krikorian’s defeat in both first instance and appeal, against Jean Schmidt which will help ANCA.
To Alper,
The Sevres Treaty which awarded most of the “Armenian Villayets” to the Armenians by a presidential decree is the ONLY treaty that has the signatures of both the Turkish government (which also agreed to let go of Lebanon, Syria, Palestine etc etc) and the first independant Republic of Armenia which INCLUDED the areas of Van, Kars, Ardahan and mount Ararat (1918-1920). The Treaty of Sevres is the only treaty we Armenians can recognize because our country’s signature was on it. The Lausanne Treaty can almost be called an “Oil” Deal that assured the US a percentage of Mosul Oil revenues in exchange of voiding the Sevres Treaty. It was Ataturk’s brainchild which distributed goods to the Europeans and Americans in order to keep as much land as possible for a “Republic” of Turkey. It was signed without the signature of Armenia which by then was attacked by Turkey’s army. The Turkish army retreated when it was effectively stopped by the Armenians at Sardarabad at the outskirts of Yerevan. The Kars Treaty that gave away the areas of Van, Ardahan, Kars and Ararat among others to Turkey was signed between Turkey and the USSR of which Armenia had become part of to salvage its people and whatever scraps of its land it could from the Turks who were marching on a country burdened with the destitute refugees from the Genocide, hunger and disease. The Kars Treaty does not have the signature of Armenia. It was signed by Turkey and the USSR which no longer exists.
All the other countries that the Ottoman Empire held were given away without war. The Turks could not give away Armenia because that would have meant a shrunken Turkish Republic. We were asking for freedom, independance and our “villayets” which were just like the other countries that were occupied by the Ottoman Empire for 600 years, historically and ethnically ours. Genocide and the plunder of resources are International crimes and are not considered legitimate and legal war tactics.
@Alper: The Treaty of Lausanne of 1923, which, as you think, superseded the Treaty of Sevres, was signed between the Allies, Turkey and the USSR. Find Armenia in it, read it again, and come back. Oh, by the way, when you come back, don’t forgive to show as a provision in the Treaty of Lausanne that unambiguously states that it supersedes the Treaty of Sevres, OK? Good luck with that…
Maxime Gauin: FYI: The number of U.S. Congressmen supporting the Armenian Issues, including recognition of the Armenian genocide, has actually increased from 2007 to 2010. You must be watching a different movie… Also FYI: the number of U.S. states that acknowledged the Turkish crime against humanity reached 44! And the trend toward recognition continues not only in the U.S. but worldwide. But you may continue day-dreaming until you see international recognition of the Turkish crime.
To Katia K.: it seems that you have been forgotten the Gümrü treaty (December 1920), which was used as an argument in Simon Vratzian’s letter to Kemal Atatürk in 1921; and the Helsinki agreements, assumed ipso facto by Armenia, since this country became a member of Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. It seems also that you neglect the fact that Sèvres’ treaty was not ratified, excepted by Greece.
Alper, this is addressed to you only as I have not read all the entries here and won’t do it (a use of time which I doubt can be justified in my case).
Who do you mean when you say it is “our lands”? Are you a Kurd, Yezdi, Turk, an Alawi/Alevi, Assyrian, or what? And if you are Turk, do you recognize the Arab, Greek, Kurd, Persian, Assyrian, Armenian and other genes in you besides Tatar? I don’t think you even know what a “Turk” is, but you still call yourself one. LOL Well, I have more news for you. That land belongs to several ethnic groups besides Turk (and the Turks are the latest comers into Anatolia). Eastern Anatolia belongs to Armenians who have been ethnically cleansed from there, to Kurds and to Turks who chose to live in eastern Anatolia. International law including what was defined by the United Nations gives the right of return to all peoples. So, Armenians are one day going back to their former homes in eastern Anatolia. I assure you of this. And by the way, we have property title documents to some of the real estate in what is called Turkey today, including the land where the presidential palace stands. The court trials will continue and justice will unfurl.
One more thing, a very important one: don’t ever let me hear you complain about European or “Western” imperialism (like your ‘brothers’ do so often), since you Alper like to justify Turkish racism by noting European racism was used against other indigenous (i. e. native) peoples. But I won’t go along with you, no good person will ever go along with, any rationalization of racism. Don’t forget THAT, Alper.
To Katia K. (suite): The Sardarabad battle happened in 1918, five years before the Lausanne treaty. The Kemalist army was victorious against Armenian army in November 1920. This victory forced the Dashnak government to sign the treaty of Gümrü, which established the current Turkish-Armenian border.
To MJM: there was no need to write that Lausanne treaty “supersedes the Treaty of Sèvres”.
1) The principle of the revision of this treaty was accepted by the London conference of 1921, and confirmed by the second London conference of 1922. As early as Fall 1920, the French governement said that France will never ratify the treaty of Sèvres and that it was necessary to find another agreement with Turks.
2) The Sèvres treaty was never ratified, excepted by Greece, and so had never any legal value.
The issue of Armenia-Turkish boundary was definitely settled by the Kars treaty (1921), itself confirmed by the Helsinki agreements (1975).
Maxime Gauin: Before I answer your ourlandish statements re: international treaties, may I ask what Gümrü is? Thanks…
Lusag: “Eastern Anatolia” is a Turkified geographical toponym never before existing in history befiore the creation of the Ottoman empire only(!) in the 14th century AD. The Armenian Plateau, as the area was known to the historians, geographers, and travelers, has been Turkified (in the best Turkish tradition to Turkify everything that doesn’t belong to them, such as Constantinople-Istanbul, Holy Biblical Armenian Mount of Ararat-Agri Dag, and scores of other examples). Therefore, “Eastern Anatolia” is a geographical nonsense, and there is no need to repeat the Turkish newly-invented rubbish…
To MJM: according to Armenian estimations, there were 226 representatives supporting the resolution in 2007 (http://asbarez.com/55794/rep-markey-calls-for-passage-of-armenian-genocide-resolution/), and 140 in 2010 (http://asbarez.com/83987/anca-wr-presses-speaker-pelosi-to-bring-h-res-252-to-floor-vote/).
The resolution passed in 2007 by a vote of 27 to 21 (http://asbarez.com/55955/foreign-affairs-committee-vote-paves-way-for-passage-of-genocide-resolution/), and with one voice of majority in 2010 (http://asbarez.com/78110/armenian-parliamentary-leader-thanks-berman-reiterates-support-for-adoption-of-genocide-bill/).
The Turkish American Caucus of US Congress had 73 members in February 2009, and around 120 in 2010.
According the speech pronounced on April 24, 2009, by Ara Toranian, currently co-chairman of Coordination Council of France’s Armenian Associations (CCAF), Armenian activism in France decreased spectacularly since 2007. The CCAF attempted to obtain the vote of penalization bill by French Senate in 2007, 2008, 2009 and 2010, always in vain.
Murat/Alper,
Sevres Treaty Armenia, turkey with all of the major powers were signatures. 74 Mill in turkey? 30 Mill are Kurds, 5 Mill hidden Jews 5 Mill hidden Assyrians, 10 Mill Gypsies/others. Turks are minorities in turkey, go and get a DNA test you will come out with Kurd and more. turkey lost 16 wars to the Russians coming 17th & final war. turks you need 2 hands & 10 fingers to count you’re Enemies. turks are Most talented Synagogues B0mbardiers 727 innocent people killed and or wounded. Ottomans and turks burned Alexandria the whole City smelt for years with Death and corpses human and animal & they Blamed the Arab for it go and explain that to the Arabs; burned Smyrna blamed the Greeks, burned books & rewrote new ones with lies and falsifications thinking the word is stupid & they could change history. turks you should bring law suits’ $$ against your own crooked Gov for educating you with falsifications and lies; look at yourselfs you’re here don’t know if you’re coming or going. All you need to do is reed your own newspaper and EDUCATE yourselves. Zaman 14 March 2010, Sunday Turkey blames everybody but itself.. http://www.todayszaman.com/columnistDetail_getNewsById.action?newsId=204241
To MJM: the treaty of Lausanne is also called treaty of Alexandropol. You can find a reference to this treaty in Hovannes Katchaznouni’s Manifesto.
Methinks Maxime is the latest nom de plume of anti Armenian racist Ergun Kirlikovali.
Maxime Gaun,
The treaty of Gumri (Alexandropol) was a peace traety between Democratic Armenia and Nationalistic extremist Turkey (dec. 2, 1920). Armenia was forced to renounce the treaty of Sevres and as a result it lost its’ 50% of land. Attention: The treaty was designed to be ratified in a month. This did not happen, because of Soviet occupation of Republic of Armenia in 1921, and it was replaced by Treaty of Kars, which was signed between Bolsheviks and Kemalists. As kati mentioned above, we won the war in 1918, because we knew that one genocide was enough for us. Yes, in 1920 we lost the war because the English and Frence abandoned us, and meanwhile Russia betrayed us. Tatar Lenin, funded by zionists, sent 10,000 troops to Turkey against armenians. Not only, when in Russia, there was no bread, weapons, Russians with the leadership of Frunsik, sent to Turkey 200 kg gold, weapons and bread. This helped Turkey to stopped Greeks from 12 miles away of Ankara… and if you look the turkish archives you will discover that Turkey was the first country in the world to recognise Armenian Genocide, although USA hasn’t recognised it yet, it may never recognise (because of NATO, Middle East and Russia), but one day it will recognise when US becomes Third World country or when it no longer needs Turkey…
To a person calling him/herself Maxime Gaiun: Do all Turks have a reading comprehension problem or you are just one of the kind? Please re-read my comment above. I said “the number of U.S. Congressmen supporting the Armenian Issues has actually increased from 2007 to 2010” and “the number of U.S. states that acknowledged the Turkish crime against humanity reached 44.” Do you see any reference to the number of representatives supporting the Armenian genocide resolution in my comment? Keep your eyes wide open, then… The number of U.S. representatives supporting the resolution is fluctuating on yearly basis, but please don’t console yourself with the decreased number of representatives because this number was sufficient in 2010 to adopt a resolution acknowledging Turkish barbarity against Armenians as genocide. By the way, I could care less about the number of members in the Congressional Turkish American Caucus. What issue is this Caucus advancing? Acknowledgment of race annihilation of Turks by Armenians? As for Armenian activism in France decreasing, it was somehow expected, because France has acknowledged the genocide of Armenians and passed the bill punishing all those who deny the truth. So activism may rest for the time being before the next decisive blow to the Turkish state… You will never get away with mass murder, Gaiun, however hard you try. We will always be there throwing in your face what kind of state you are and what kind of barbarians your ancestors were. Make no mistake…
P.S. I’m still awaiting your response as to what mysterious name “Gümrü” is before I answer you nightmarish comments re: international treaties.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has again betrayed the Armenian People on our Genocide Resolution 252. The Turks have won again with the help of the five Jewish Organizations. I am now registered as an Independent for voting. I will no longer support Democrats or even Republicans as both parties have been payed off by the Turks. When up to forty nations around the world have recognized the well documented Armenian Genocide, then I say shame on the United States of America for putting aside the truth. I now say the time has come when we must have demonstrations against the President, the State Dept. and also a demonstration at the Israeli Embassy in Washington, DC to stop supporting the Turks. Also, the time has come that our organizations must change the way we are doing things. And shame on the Armenian Government for not backing up the Diaspora Armenians on the Genocide issue as well as Reparations and Land Returns to our Nation. Stephen T. Dulgarian
Alper,
I am sure you are counting the 70,000 Armenians, and all the Armenians who were forced to convert to Islam and become Kurd or Turk in the current 74 Million Turkic population.
The Seljuk Turks were Nomadic Tatars who invaded from the Steppes of Central Asia in 1071. According to history books their way of living (and their pride) was by “raiding” other tribes villages, plundering them and making them their own. They mingled with the Byzantine peoples and later decided to take on the religion of Islam. By the time the Ottoman Empire formed in the late 1200s, the Seljuks had lost the slant in their eyes and looked nothing like their invading ancestors. Some of the Turkic peoples still have the slant (Tajikistan if I am not mistaken). The Young Turks wanted to homogenize the population in Turkey by massacring the Christians and creating a “Turkey for the Turks” where only Islam prevailed. They announced a Holy Jihad against the Chrisian civilians during WWI, and the entire muslim population was given the authority to rape, kill and plunder. Some were against this and helped the Armenians, and some thought they would get better use of young women and children if they converted them to Islam. My grandmother’s sister married a Turk and became muslim to save herself. After fleeing to Lebanon, my grandmother tried to keep in touch with her and her children, but eventually lost contact. How do I know you are not my relative?
To MJM: unlike the majority of commentators of this topic, I use my real name; I am not a Turk; all my four grandparents were born French citizens, including my maternal grandfather, 91 years old, who has the Medal of French Résistance, among others… Just search my name on Google.com, you will have fun.
You wrote “the number of U.S. Congressmen supporting the Armenian Issues, including recognition of the Armenian genocide, has actually increased from 2007 to 2010”. Since you mentioned “including the recognition of the Armenian genocide”, I made a reply on this precise topic.
Your baseless allegation of reading comprehension problem is even more funny since you write also that the penalization bill was passed in French Parliament. As I said, the truth is the reverse. The bill was not voted by the Senate, and the recent attempts failed. We have in France “our Nancy Pelosi” in the person of Senator Serge Lagauche, who did not keep his promise made in June 2010.
I answered to you about Gümrü, but I wrote “Lausanne” instead of “Gümrü”. My apologies.
To MJM (suite): an additional precision about legal situation in France. You, or another, would perhaps reply to my precedent comment in arguing about the Lewis affair. Prof. Bernard Lewis was sentenced, in 1995, because he said: “Do you mean the Armenian version of this story?” Not for the rest of his statements. The legal basis was the article 1382 of Civil code, but the Cour de cassation has forbidden absolutely, in 2004, to use this article to limitate free speech about persons, as you can see in reading this article written by Patrice Jourdain, professor of law at Paris-I-Sorbonne University http://actu.dalloz-etudiant.fr/fileadmin/actualites/pdfs/Rtd_civ_2006_126_jourdain.pdf
Maxime,
Etant Francais, vous savez tres bien a propos les atrocites de 1915. Les Francais sont venu a notre defence plusieur fois, et ont rescue 4,000 Armeniens de Musa Dagh. Maintenant que la Turkie est forte, vous commencez a parler d’un version Armenien! Pardonnez mes errors, ca fait beaucoup d’annees que j’ai parler Francais.
mjm,
Anatolia is a name that stems from Greek, actually. It is more Russian than Turkish. Haven’t you ever heard of the name Anatole? I think we can agree it is a Christian name, but no matter. It is another name given internationally to Asia Minor.
You should get annoyed, even angry, with “Maxime Gauin” for Turkifying up the name Gümrü as Lausanne in his answer to you, despite in the same sentence mentioning Alexandrapol, or Gyumri as it now known again. BTW, the Swiss would be incensed to hear Lausanne called by another name, especially a non-European name. Maybe this MG is a Turk who thinks the whole world belongs to him.
I’m with you in sentiment as to actual and blatant cover-ups by Turkey of geographical locations such as Mount Ararat and some cities and towns. The name change of Constantinople does not bother me one bit, however. That city doesn’t have any obligation to keep the name of its founder more than 1500 years later.
And I think that maybe “jda” is correct about the real identity of “Maxime Gauin”.
To Katia K.: I am an historian by education (MA in contemporary history obtained with mention “Very good” in Paris-I-Sorbonne University; it is not finished), and I became interested by the topics which are discussed here and in many other places as an historian — as a French to be more accurate, indeed. French sources are very valuable, I agree. For instance, Six mois en Cilicie, diary written in 1920 by Pierre Bernard, and the proceedings of auditions in French Senate in 1921 are sources which did not receive the attention which they deserve.
The current increasing power of Turkey is irrelevant in the appreciation of historical facts. That is right that some politicians, in France, USA and elsewhere, changed their minds because increasing of Turkey’s power, but Armenian activists are the last who could be allowed to present themselves as schocked by that, since they used any difficulty of Turkey for their political agenda. It is just a question of coherence.
To Lusag:
1) I am not a Turk, I have no Turkish blood in the veins.
2) My error was a simple lapsus, like anybody can make.
Maxime,
With all the odds against us, Europe and the US overdosed on Dementia imposed by kudos from Turkey, we use every opportunity we can to remind the world of the unfinished business of burying 1.5 million people with dignity and restoring their personal and cultural assets to their rightful heirs. I resent your use of the word “Agenda”. We do not have an Agenda, we only have the goal of getting Justice for our people. Our story might be interesting to you as a historian, but for us it is the story of our mother, father, grandparents and relatives, whose murderers go unpunished and whose assets/properties/lands were confiscated from us with not a cent in reparations.
Maxime Gauin,
You think you answered mjm’s question but you didn’t. His question was very simple. What is Gümrü? You say “the treaty of Lausanne is also called treaty of Alexandropol.” Even if you meant to say “the treaty of Gümrü is also called treaty of Alexandropol,” you simply gave an alternative name for the Treaty but you did not clarify the mysterious name Gümrü. Don’t you think?
Your post is in English, isn’t it? Either you are confused about the fact that there is no “ü” in English or you intentionally Turkify the name of an Armenian city. Which one is it?
“Just search my name on Google.com, you will have fun.” –You really think you are THAT important or interesting? There are better things to do than searching your name. Really.
Correction: the first name of the author of Six mois en Cilicie was not Pierre but Paul.
To Gina: of course, I used intentionally the Turkish spelling.
It was some of my contradictors who raised questions, so I suggested to use Google to obtain the responses. Quite simple. One more time.
Salut M. Gauin
Si je peux me présenter, je suis un canadien-arménien de Toronto. Merci d’avoir participé dans ce débat avec un respect que manquent Murat, Robert etc. et les turcs qui fréquentent ces pages.
Faut que je te contredise au sujet des accords d’Helsinki. Ces accords ne mentionnent pas les frontières caucasienne, et ne traitent que l’annexation soviétique des états baltiques. Et, comme Lausanne, ces accords n’ont pas été signés par un état indépendant arménien. Donc ton constatement que ces accords ‘ipso facto’ confirment la frontiére arménienne est faux.
To Katia K. “Our story might be interesting to you as a historian, but for us it is the story of our mother, father, grandparents and relatives”
Thank you for this concise account of the irreconciliable opposition between politcized memory and history.
“whose murderers go unpunished and whose assets/properties/lands were confiscated from us with not a cent in reparations.”
You have to keep your protests for Armenian organizations which existed in USA in 1920’s and 1930’s. Since USA did never declare war to Ottoman Empire nor assume the amnesty included in the Kars, Angora and Lausanne treaties, the issue of seized and destroyed properties, including those of Ottoman Armenians who became US citizens, was settled in 1937, after 14 years of negotiations.
Maxime, yes, the France also betrayed us during The kingdom of Cilicia, don’t forget how much armenians did for french crusades. Just take this as a recommendation as a historian. It is a just a thought. You are historian, aren’t you? If you are really intersted in armenian cause then you should really study Turkish archives, their courts decisions, and Enver’s notes.
Շնորհավոր ամանոր ւ Սւրբ Ծննընդ
Be very careful as you shop during this holiday season. I picked up a package of figs yesterday and had to look very carefully before I found that it came from turkey. It was in extremely small and faint print. Figs from Greece are superior in every respect, plump, sundried, reasonably priced. Turkey now produces textiles. There is absolutely no reason to buy their textiles. They are not noted for either cotton or linen fibre crop production or textile manufacture. Look carefully for the country of origin when you buy oil. It might say that olive oil is bottled in Italy without saying where the oil comes from before bottling. Look for the “grown in” label or contact the manufacturer for country of origin. They will usually reply to an email enquiry. Turkey ships oil in large cargo boats but I never see “grown in Turkey” on oil labels, so you have to be very careful, particularly with hazelnut oil. As for the allegation that Armenian stores in Glendale are selling many Turkish products, why on earth would you shop in those stores – for anything?
As for the suggestion that we should all buy land in Van, Moush, etc. please let me tell you that it is extremely difficult, even unsafe at times, to be simply a pilgrim or tourist, let alone to entertain the notion of buying the land in our villages. Those lands are now mostly occupied by Kurds and policed by armed Turks. If it were as simple as cutting a cheque, thousands of us would have bought the land of our murdered fathers’ villages long ago. We are not talking about Park Avenue land values for most of the small villages. This is harsh, mountainous land with little commercial value. turks don’t want to live on it, cultivate it, or maintain it. They just want to keep us off it.
There is no point in engaging in dialogue with uninformed, propaganda infected denialists who surf the web in hopes of distracting and inflaming Armenians. It is a waste of time that should be directed to more productive narrative. If we all ignore them completely and stay on topic, they will eventually go away and find another hobby. As for Pelosi and her ilk, support with your votes the Independent Armenians who support our cause. Stephen T. Dulgarian has stated here that he is such a man. Elect others like him. Canvas for them. Put up billboards. Walk the walk.
@ Alex : J’essaie de discuter courtoisement avec tous ceux qui sont courtois ; quant à ceux qui ne le sont pas, j’essaie de préférer l’ironie à la surenchère verbale.
Les accords d’Helsinki de 1975 prévoient la reconnaissance mutuelle des frontières entre les différents pays signataires (dont la Turquie et l’URSS) et l’engagement à ne pas les modifier par la force. http://www.osce.org/documents/mcs/1975/08/4044_fr.pdf
Il est vrai que l’Arménie indépendante n’a pas signé ces accords, mais elle est devenue membre de l’OSCE, sans y être forcée par personne. Ce faisant, elle s’est engagée à respecter les accords de 1975.
Summary for those who do not understand French: I debated with Alex about the Helsinki accords, which include a mutual recognition of boudaries and the comitment to avoid the use of force to change these lines. http://www.osce.org/documents/mcs/1975/08/4044_en.pdf Independent Armenia did not sign the 1975 accords, but joined OSCE without any pressure, and so accepted the pledges included in Helsinki agreements, including about boundaries.
« If you are really intersted in armenian cause then you should really study Turkish archives, their courts decisions, and Enver’s notes. »
Of course. The archives of ARF are important, too, isn’t it?
“American congress
Refused to hear our painfulness…
For them we are only bunch of minorities,
It seems even god closed his skies
Insistive not to hear our soulful calls…”
Sylva-MD-Poetry
Maxime, would love to hear you tell us your rendition of the heroics of Legion D’Armenique, their wonderful help and support of the French in subduing the non-Christian masses living in Kilikya from 1918 to 1920 or so. What do the French archives tell us?
Maxime Gauin, academic debates and historical interpretations are interesting and even intellectually stimulating, but are no match for what we know is the truth through personal experience and family tragedies. We are a culture that has survived based on our faith and our belief in one another. Only an Armenian understands that bond. It has been successfully passed from Haik to Tigranes to Dirtad to Levon to Gomidas to today.
Our boundaries have changed regularly over the centuries. The 20th century is no execption. Treaties and their interpretations do not supercede one constant. The Armenian nation is an ancient and current contributor to world civilization. As such we are participants in the inalienable right of all to self-determination. The Armenians have proven , over a long history , to be a peaceful people operating with Christian values, who respond to aggressors only after provocation. Western Armenian was occupied by Armenians continuously for centuries before the first Turks invaded. Artsakh has been an Armenian enclave for centuries. Forced migration, deportations and genocide does not change indigenous rights… it only deepens them.
I am not sure what your motivations are with your posts. If it is to influence the Armenians by “opening our minds”, than you should start by understanding those who you seek to influence. It is isn’t that difficult. Despite the attempts to annihilate our people, steal our lands and confiscate our property, we haven’t changed much…. still love our faith and heritage…. still are peaceful contributors… and still will oppose any attempt to what we know is the truth.
Maxime,
To be a fair historian you need to LISTEN with objectivity. The underlying sarcasm in your tone is surprising and confusing. You have labeled my family’s loss of property as “political memory” or at least that’s how I understood your comment. Maybe you have prejudices that you bring here that are getting in the way of you listening and understanding. My grandfather’s family were rich textile merchants. They lived in three adjacent homes and each had its own courtyard and stables. They obviously had their store with a big inventory of fabric. My grandmother’s parents and younger brother were killed in 1915. Herself, her sisters and older brother were saved because their Turkish neighbor s claimed them as their own children. My grandparents barely escaped with their lives in 1922 and lost their first born to malaria on the road. Their homes were immediately occupied by Turks. Their stores were taken over too. When I or any of us talk about reparations, we are first and foremost talking about reparations of our families properties and assets. Do you understand that? The other issue is the fact that for years the Armenians were asking for equal human,civic rights and security, (I am sure you know that 300,000 Armenians were massacred in 1896 by Sultan Abdul Hamid and 30,000 were massacred in Adana in 1906), and towards the end wanted their independence just like the other countries did. France and the rest of the Allies constantly voiced their outrage at the way the Turks were treating the Armenians. Are you suggesting that we should just accept all the dirty dealings that went on to help Turkey keep our lands, including getting away with murdering 1.5 million innocent civilians and confiscating their bank accounts and properties? Is this your idea of justice now? Why wasn’t the same suggested for the jews who got paid back with interest not only for lives, monies and properties lost but even for artwork! Who’s being political here Maxime? Who’s memory is suddenly failing here? Justice has become a joke in the case of the Armenians, because Turkey put it up for sale!
Yes, Katia. Clear and precise!
Katia,
“Do you understand that?”
What I understand on this kind of topics is what is written in Fred K. Nielsen (ed.), American Turkish Claims Settlement under the Agreement of December 24, 1923 and Supplementary Agreement Between the United States and Turkey. Opinions and Report, Washington: Government Printing Office, 1937.
This issue — including claims made by Armenian Americans — was legally discussed and finally settled. I did never find any critique of a single decision taken by the US officials who written this report.
Katia K, Perouz, Hovo and more I admire you. “whose murderers go unpunished and whose assets/properties/lands were confiscated from us with not a cent in reparations.”It is unacceptable by any and all free Nations to except Don’t care how many Treaties are signed by which side after committing Genocide on to them, confiscating their Homes/properties/Farms/Churches/ after Rape/Murder/killing Babies; someone please tell me how could babies be considered enemies? 1) Openly boycott products/travel to/from turkey; like turkey openly blockades Armenia 2) Be careful as you shop. Store that is selling products of turkey tell the store manager and boycott that store till they stop selling turkish products. 3) Turkish government must open archived (and Military archive records) material to the publicand the world.
There are those that come in to these discussions clamming they are not turks but historians or and something ells; Make up bunch of usual lies, then go and change their name and come back w/ a different name Talking the same B/S thing or in parallel to the conversation . Their objective is focused only on how to distorting the truth!
Mais Maxim, les accords exigent également que les états participants, dont la Turquie est un, aient du ‘Respect des droits de l’homme et des libertés fondamentales, y compris la liberté de pensée, de conscience, de religion ou de conviction.’ Tu ne peux pas me prétendre que la Turquie suivent cette vis-a-vis sa minorité arménienne.
Les accords également éxigent de réglement pacifique des différends. L’Azerbaijan a violé ce principe en envahissant l’Arménie.
Si on suit ta logique plus loin, la Turquie est devenue membre des Nations Unies, qui condamnent le génocide. Mais elle continue son génocide en le niant et de s’enrichir avec la terre mainmise pendant un génocide, ce qui est aussi condamné et interdit par les NU.
(English)
Maxim’s logic incriminates Turkey and Azerbaijan way more than it does Armenia. The Helsinki accords also call for respect for human rights, among them freedom of thought, religion, and expression. Turkey has violated all of these with respect to its Armenian minority. The Helsinki accords also demand peaceful settlement of disputes, which Azerbaijan violated when it invaded Armenia. Most importantly, Turkey is also a member of the UN, which condemns genocide and the enrichment from territory seized in genocide…needless to say, Turkey has violated this principle as well.
Bravo Alex!
I don’t know whose worse, criminals who hide their crime or their friends who agree to close their eye to the crime in exchange to political and economic benefits!
Maxime,
As an Armenian, this is the first time that I am hearing about an “American Turkish” settlement! What was this settlement about, what parties did it involve and what settlemnts are we talking about? The United States during and right after WWI had a very small Armenian community. Are you suggesting that “that” settlement” took care of the claims of the thousands of Armenian refugees who settled in Syria, LebanonN Palestine, Greece, France and on and on. I know my family who settled in Lebanon has not received an inch from Turkey! Your logic seems superficial and your understanding of the “Armenian situation” very limited.
Katia,
Let’s write “American Turkish Settlement” on Google, read the book (available online), especially the parts about claims made by Armenian Americans, and enjoy.
According to Sarkis Atamian, there were more than 70,000 Armenians in USA in 1917 (The Armenian Community. The Historical Development of a Social and Ideological Conflict, New York: Philosophical Library, 1955, p. 353). According to Sarkis Karajian, 100,000 others immigrated in USA in the beginning of 1920’s (“An Inquiry into Statistics of the Turkish Genocide of the Armenians”, Armenian Review, Winter 1972, pp. 22-23). It is not what I would call “a very small Armenian community”.
Of course, the US-Turkish agreement had nothing to do with Armenians who immigrated in France, Greece and Middle East, since France, Greece and UK signed and ratified the Lausanne treaty, which include an amnesty. But if you read the book, you will understand what I mean.
@ Alex : Nous progressons. La reconnaissance des frontières par les accords d’Helsinki et l’acceptation de ces accords par l’Arménie ne sont plus contestés.
Pour parler des Turcs arméniens, il vaudrait mieux écouter les premiers intéressés, plutôt que les arrière-petits-enfants d’immigrés ottomans qui vivent à Los Angeles, Boston ou Issy-les-Moulineaux, ne parlent ni le turc ni même l’arménien, et n’ont jamais mis les pieds en Turquie de toute leur vie.
Sur l’ONU : http://www.un.org/News/briefings/docs/2007/db070409.doc.htm
Thank you for the info Maxime. The Armenian community is 1 million strong in the US now. If it’s true that some reparations were made early on by Turkey, that gives hope that they will make reparations concerning all of our other losses, the big ones of course were never addressed. It just goes to show that the Genocide was an accepted fact for Turkey when it first happened. Turkey was the first to acknowledge it and bring the perpetrators to justice. And than it got a taste of how far the Europeans and Americans can be cajoled into turning an eye on the larger picture of this calamity. Ataturk changed the Turkish alphabet from arabic to roman letters and a campaign of brainwashing and distorting started. The Turks do not even have the ability to read the archives of the Turkish tribunals that were written in arabic, where the Young Turks were apprehended by their own people and sentenced to death. According to some history books, the Turks condemned their own because they thought that was the least costly way to close the chapter on the “Armenian saga”. I believe in that theory, because right after the Tribunals they did a 360 and started covering up and denying the whole thing. I think their gamble worked because they weazled their way out of the Sevres Treaty that awarded the Armenian Villayets back to the Armenians. The Turks signed that Treaty! What does that mean? It means they knew those lands belonged rightfully to us! Only with money and bribing were they successful in hypnotyzing the Europeans and the Americans into “ignoring a Presidential decree”. I guess justice is subject to interpretation by the powerful and rich.
Maxime, most of the Armenian refugees consisted of orphans. These orphans had to restart their lives in foreign countries. Their leaders were slaughtered, they had no representation so the powers in the world ignored them. However by law their case has to be addressed. We are their descendants and we are here to remind the world of this unresolved international crime.
Katia, none of those reparations made to the US reached Armenians. In fact, it was made sure they didn’t reach Armenians. Also, Gauin is a genocide denier and has actively worked in defense of denialist agenda. He is being careful with his comments here (or perhaps his denialism is being censored), but a little search on google makes everything clear.
You can also start here:
http://ataturksocietyuk.com/2010/05/11/how-a-court-case-was-won-against-a-dashnak-by-maxime-gauin/
There is also a lot of material in French and Turkish about him. Of course, he’s a hero for the denialist establishment.
Désolé M. Gauin, mais je le contéste! L’Arménie n’a jamais reconnu sa frontière avec la Turquie. Et tu as mal compris mon point: si la Turquie pouvait violer les accords Helsinki pendant des décennies sans conséquence, l’Arménie a le droit de les ‘violer’ vis-a-vis la frontière.
SVP ne te moque pas de moi. Hrant Dink était un de mes amis les plus proches. Je connaissais les Turcs arméniens et j’habitais Istanbul avec eux. Je suis partis pour éviter la pérsecution.
Sur l’ONU: http://www.teachgenocide.org/files/DocsMaps/UN%20Report%20on%20Genocide%20%28excerpts%29.pdf
Bon courage avec ton négationisme.
Thank you for the links Garabed, I understand Maxime better now. I guess he came here to insult and harrass the victims of Genocide and incite more Movses Nissanians!
Ciao
This joker gauin he is all over the place; any discussions as this one He will come in as a doctor or paper rear end historian he wouldn’t think twice making up events, lies comes normal to him. Now he disappears for few days; rest assured he will be back with a new name or two You will have two NEW NAME people throwing junk at you; to make sure he has the Trump card, actually it will be coming from only him again.
1) Unlike the other commentators of this topic, I use my real name, and I suggested to write this name on Google, surely not a way to dissimulate what I think and did.
2) There were US Armenian claims in 1920’s and 1930’s; what happened finally can hardly be dismissed without rational argumentation, and such an argumentation lacks, here and elsewhere.
3) I can show my degrees in history to anybody.
4) The Dashnak Movsès Nissanian and his lawyer Xavier Vahramian would surely say few kind words about me, but there is serious reasons to believe that they would never call me “a joker”.
Alex, pour connaître les déclarations de l’ONU, il vaut mieux lire les propos de ses porte-parole, sur le site officiel.
Le reste est à l’avenant.
Katia,
I guess he came here to insult and harrass the victims of Genocide
Honestly, where did you see insults from me?
I asked French friends to find information about Dr Gauin. They say he must be an “agrege” (he passed a very difficult competitive exam) or else he wouldn’t call himself a historian and that according to his resume he is also a “normalien” (= an even more difficult competitive exam, so he was among the happy few who were accepted in the elite Ecole Normal Superieur in Lyons where students receive government-paid salaries to live comfortably while studying). In addition, he is said to have clearly stated that he is not a denialist, which means that he recognizes the Armenian genocide as such. Not very consistent with his posts, one might argue.
Yes Yes I have at least fourteen or fifteen of “agrege”S hanging on the walls of my garage.
Are you the #2 Gauin? “”which means that he recognizes the Armenian genocide as such””
Pay attention joker recognizes the Armenian genocide; When did all this happen yesterday/today/or from here to Eternity?
Paul,
Why do you refer to Gaiun as a Dr? Does he hold a PhD? He still has to get his MA. (He wrote: “I am an historian by education (MA in contemporary history obtained with mention “Very good” in Paris-I-Sorbonne University; it is not finished), and I became interested by the topics which are discussed here and in many other places as an historian — as a French to be more accurate, indeed.”) –Why is he interested in these topics as a French, indeed I have no idea? As a historian, I understand, but as a French?
Perhaps, Gauin is a very good student. I am not familiar with the French system of higher education to judge. But I think you are trying too hard to present him as a prominent scholar, which I am not sure is the case. At least, not currently. Also, he seems to be a classical denier who takes pleasure in being sarcastic and condescending. Doesn’t look like a person with genuine interest in history.
ms.gauin:
you say you are from france, what a shame, you must be from some village in france. i myself am an Armenian, born on the french riviera. why don’t you get another pastime, perhaps milking cows might be a good one. you know, you are wasting our time but if my father was alive he would tell you how he saw both his parents massacred in front of him in turkey, he was ten. same thing happened to my mother’s father. he made it to france by some miracle, became a ‘resistance’ fighter, received the ‘croix d’honneur’, you know what that is, don’t you. he even took chances, hid jews during the 2nd. war. guess what, jews are against us and are doing their best in the u.s. to belittle us.
you do realize it is only a matter of time. as they say ‘slowly but surely’.
oh! yes, we were surprised when we googled your name, couldn’t get your e-mail address. you are so comical.
happy new year and merry Armenian Christmas… even if you’re not Armenian, what a shame.
gerard
Bedros, I say go for the last one (age 23). He is still working on his M.D., so can not be a PhD..
In this world all actions are motivated by self interest. In order to be popular you have to do two things: destroy or create. Example: The Roman Emperor Nero ruled by fear, he was responsible of burning of Rome and for the slaughter of many of his family members. Yes, this made him famous. So, there are others, who claim to be scientists, historians, etc. They may never change their believes. They can claim that the World is flat, the Earth is globally warming or something did happen in 1915 because of the strike of a comet. There are others who claimed a great victory over their opponents while winning an insignificant case in a small claim court, and the case itself was equal to a parking ticket (or a small civil infraction). There are also people who are ready to distort Armenian cause to gain some fame or Turkish cash. You get the point. And what made France so popular? Yes, it was/is prostitution. She “gave” so easy, specially to Germans (WWII). Only country in the universe that surrendered without a shot. …
Some remarks:
— My MA is finished, with an average of notation of 16/20. There was an ambiguity in my formulation: what is not finished is serie of degrees for my academic carreer.
— I am born a city, and made my studies in Bordeaux, Lyon (École normale supérieure) and Paris (Paris-I-Sorbonne and École des hautes études en sciences sociales). I have fortunately many other interests than Armenian history and its relations with powers, but this topic stimulate a special attention.
— The mortality rate of French soldiers during the battles of 1940 is even worst than in Verdun battle (1916). France had the worst general staff which could be imagined in 1935-1940, and that is the main reason of its defeat. About the French Résistance, let see what General D. Eisenhower said.
— On Turkish money: “no one should be defamed because of his or her views on the Armenian Genocide, no matter how wrong or offensive they are. Unless one possesses evidence to the contrary, one cannot simply assume that those making distorted statements on the Armenian Genocide are motivated by greed or are paid agents of the Turkish government.” Harout Sassounian (http://armenianweekly.com/2010/10/05/sassounian-apology-for-vilifying-one-man-yet-no-apology-for-killing-1-5-million/)
— It is an inexhaustible source of fun to see that the discussion on an editorial of Armenian Weekly about a major concern of its readers, came to a discussion about me.
« Why is he interested in these topics as a French, indeed I have no idea? As a historian, I understand, but as a French? »
If I say to you Ismail Erez, Max Hraïr Kinldjian, ASALA, Orly, Lewis and Veinstein affairs, do you understand better?
What happened to all of the Armenian gold?
What happened to al of the Jewish gold?
You forgot to add Legion D”Armenique.
So that’s why your “jouissance” is the hatred of Armenians and the love of those who robbed them of everything? You mean some relative of yours was injured or killed at the unjustifiable attack in Orly committed by a group that wouldn’t have existed in the first place if the Armenians had been allowed to have what the French find normal to have for themselves : being alive, not having their kids abducted or exterminated, choosing their fate themselves, not being invaded – when you were invaded and occupied, you did expect Americans, Britons, Canadians, Australians, Africans and even the Red Army to fight for your freedom, didn’t you? Human rights are OK for the French, not for the indigenous people of Asia Minor – or Africa, for that matter? By the way, as a French historian, what have you published about the French betrayal in Cilicia and the thousands of civilians who were killed due to it? And about Turkey’s decision to support the German aggressors during WW1?
It’s horrible to have lost someone in that Orly attack – or in the Ankara one. Does it make the babies massacred in 1915 and under Kemal less innocent , and the fact that Turkey has thrived on the spoils of the disarmed population it annihilated less disgusting? Oh, but nothing of the sort happened,we forgot. The Armenians vanished in the air, and left their bodies and their belongings to the invaders and occupiers with the heirs and continuators of whom a young French man has fallen in love. Turkish human rights activists do not seem to be of much interest to you, do they? Anyway, because I am different from you I am sorry for that relative of yours who you suggest was hurt in the Orly attack.
Ironically, the word terrorism originated during the French Revolution (by Edmund Burk, Jacobin Reign of Terror (1792-1794)), and the first terrorists were French nationals, their actions were against tyrants who claimed to have divine rights to rule….
Louis August Blanqui asserted that the transformation of society could only happen with the help of small organized terrorist group. This group must act as vanguard for the French Revolutionary process. With the imperial abdication in France in 1870, and the establishment of Paris Commune in March 1871, a red terror once again had flourished, accentuated by class division and violence….
Garabedian told French investigators that the violation of the secret pact by ASALA was an accident, and that the suitcase bomb was supposed to detonate on board the Turkish airliner, not on French soil. But the Orly airport attack forced the French government to crack down on ASALA…..
In an interview in 2008, Garabedian explained the Orly bombing was a protest against the hanging execution of Levon Ekmekjian in Istanbul in 1982.….Socialist government had struck a secret deal with ASALA in January 1982.…
French press alleged that the French Socialist government had struck a secret deal with ASALA in January 1982,
The chief authority is surely Bernard Lewis at Princeton. He told a French newspaper some years ago that there is no document proving the(genocidal) intentions of the Ottoman government, and, on the matter of definition, it depends what you mean by genocide’…..
Yes, there is——-”they were premeditatedly, with INTENT, murdered, after the men had had their hand tied behind their backs”(Turkish archive).
If this wasn’t genocide than what is genocide? Do you want me to believe my eyes and ears or to believe Franco-Turko lies…. of course i believe my eyes and ears…
There are apparently peoples who had nothing better to do, during the Eve, than to answer to me here.
I have obviously no “hatred” against Armenians. I gave facts and references, especially the work of US civil servants during the 1920’s and 1930’s. Nobody here wants to discuss about that. Why?
There were indeed talks between French government and ASALA in the second half of 1981, but it failed. ASALA attacked several times on French soil in 1982 and during the first semester of 1983. For instance: http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/IncidentSummary.aspx?gtdid=198207200002 http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/IncidentSummary.aspx?gtdid=198207240001 http://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/IncidentSummary.aspx?gtdid=198302280001
I am totally discusted with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi who again failed to bring up HR 252 which was within her power. The Turks & the Israel lobby win again because the Armenian People fail to support and get involved with what is right. Also, shame on the Armenian Government & the Armenian Embassy in Washington, DC for not getting involved. The time has come for Armenians to wake up and for our organizations to change our way of doing things here in the States. Demonstrations in Washington against the President, the State Dept., Pelosi, and the Israeli Embassy should be a start along with Petitions to the President & State Dept. signed by millions here in the States. On top of that, Armenians should send out letters to Pelosi, the President, etc. to show our discussed on how the truth of what happened to the Armenian People can be washed away. Stephen T. Dulgarian
Gauin – You keep saying things like below; you show Armenians in darker light,
[glass is half empty] Instead glass is half foul. This is why your Veracity is being questioned here.
“””I have obviously no “hatred” against Armenians”””
I listed below many references for you to study I hope it will be helpful to you.
You don’t talk about any of below.
ASALA Abdullah Çatlı Neo-Fascist is one of the worst type of terrorists one might think of. He brutally killed turkish students, children, was involved in drug trafficking, had connections with mafia, was a drug addict himself and still was a Turkish police agent; and employed by Turkish government, can write a book about his organization.
Turkish government was the one that gave birth to ASALA by denying the Armenian Genocide.
At that time there was USSR.
—–
you know turkey is spending sum serous $ Billions $. Fact that the Genocide of 1915 was the culmination of repeated massacres preceding World War I, beginning in 1895-1896; he then argued that the treatment of the Armenians by the Turks was “unique and unprecedented” in its “degree of savagery and fiendishness,” and pointed to the release of as many as 35,000 Turkish convicts and felons who were enlisted in the efforts to eliminate the Armenians and quoted eyewitnesses, even one Turkish army commander who filed an affidavit in 1918 which said, “In the annals of Islam, you cannot find such savagery. (2) The aftermath of the Genocide, has been the Turks’ attempts to assign this terrible history to oblivion. “Criminals when they escape, become more radical and violent.. Although Great Britain, France and the US later condemned the Turks and the concept of “crimes against humanity,” was adopted by the Paris Peace Conference and later at the Nuremberg trials, the effort to obtain acknowledgment from the Turks themselves must be unceasing,
——
complete books and pages have always been here. U.S. National Archives & Record Administration holds extensive & thorough documentation on the Armenian Genocide, especially Record Group 59 of the U.S. Deprt. of State, files 867.00 and 867.40, which are open and widely available to the public and interested institutions.
The US National Archives contain thousands of pages documenting the “premeditated extermination of the Armenian people.” It was in part due to American intervention and humanitarian
assistance that the full plan was not carried out. An organization known as Near East Relief, chartered by an act of Congress,
—-
The wartime reports from German and Austro-Hungarian officials, Turkey’s World War I allies,
“559 villages whose surviving inhabitants were converted to Islam with fire and sword; 568 churches thoroughly pillaged, destroyed and razed to the ground; of 282 Christian churches transformed into mosques; of 21 Protestant preachers and 170 Armenian priests who were, after enduring unspeakable tortures, murdered on their refusal to accept Islam.” Lepsius concluded with this rhetorical question: “Is this a religious persecution or is it not?” And in his eloquent Wednesday 8/22/07 column “No Room to Deny Genocide” The Boston Globe’s Jeff Jacoby emphasized the nexus between the jihad genocide of the Armenians, the contemporary depredations of jihad, and the dangers of denial:
« On ne discute pas avec les négationnistes. » (Pierre Vidal-Naquet). M. Gauin doesn’t discuss anything anyway, and isn’t an historian despite his MA : he just uses name-dropping and piles up quotations from characters selected by Turkish forums or out-of-context quotes, from Hilmar Kaiser for example, then he dubs those quotations “facts” and he totally ignores experts, even Turkish scholars and intellectuals. His on-line response to the plight of Dogan Akhanli is telling – and a disgrace. He hasn’t produced but a few pieces of evidence from Turkish archives that there was no genocide, that no lands, no houses were confiscated, zero church destroyed, and that Armenians “migrated” to the moon. Meanwhile, Turks themselves are informing the world that the whole economy and identity of their nation are based on the murder and robbery. No Armenian is discussing the ASALA because no one denies what it did any more than they deny the US Civil War or the French revolution. M. Gauin also denies being a denialist (why be ashamed, if he is right in denying the Genocide?) he denies he hates Armenians, which IS obvious – at least his model Pierre Loti admitted he hated them as well as Jews! He denies the fact that the French didn’t really fight during WW2 and left the job to others (including the Blacks and Arabs they had colonized) while trying to live as normally as possible and collaborating more or less actively. No serious historian would compare the number of losses of the year1940 with those of Verdun. Instead, they would compare the percentage of deaths in the male populations and the overall populations -since civilians also became the targets of belligerents-of the Allied countries. It is doubtful that France would win the contest. The Red Army, and in it, particularly Armenia, on the contrary…. And now, since quotations are the only things he likes, here are some from Wikipedia that are worth reading. §2 could apply to those who consider that the genocide didn’t exist because some Armenians became Ottoman officials or that Ottoman society was- ha, ha, ha- “egalitarian”. Or that it didn’t occur because… there were ASALA attacks decades later. Enjoy :
Boris Cyrulnik définit le négationnisme comme un message adressé aux survivants: “Crevez, votre souffrance nous importune“[2].
Qu’elle concerne les crimes des nazis ou d’autres, la démarche négationniste a ceci de particulier qu’elle use d’une méthodologie partiale et malhonnête, opérant la sélection, la dissimulation, le détournement ou la destruction d’informations corroborant l’existence du crime (voire la création de fausses preuves « impliquant » l’inexistence des évènements passés).
La négation d’un génocide (Shoah, Génocide arménien, Rwanda, etc.) vise notamment, de facto, à obtenir un non-lieu pour ce qui est admis comme un crime, et à retirer aux victimes ou à leurs ayant droit tout droit à la moindre réparation (en l’absence de crime il n’y a plus ni criminels ni victimes). Le négationnisme peut ainsi servir à protéger aussi bien les auteurs d’un génocide, que les complices d’un génocide et les héritiers idéologiques d’un génocide.
Les négationnistes, selon Pierre Vidal-Naquet, exploitent l’ignorance des journalistes. Vidal-Naquet cite la description que fait Marshall Sahlins (New York Review of books du 22 mars 1979) de cette manipulation :
« Le livre d’Arens suit un modèle traditionnel des entreprises journalistico-scientifiques en Amérique : le professeur X émet quelque théorie monstrueuse – par exemple : les nazis n’ont pas véritablement tué les Juifs ; ou encore : la civilisation humaine vient d’une autre planète ; ou enfin : le cannibalisme n’existe pas. Comme les faits plaident contre lui, l’argument principal de X consiste à exprimer, sur le ton le plus élevé qui soit, son propre mépris pour toutes les preuves qui parlent contre lui […]. Tout cela provoque Y ou Z à publier une mise au point telle que celle-ci. X devient désormais le très discuté professeur X et son livre reçoit des comptes rendus respectueux écrits par des non-spécialistes dans Time, Newsweek et le New Yorker. Puis s’ouvrent la radio, la télévision et les colonnes de la presse quotidienne. »
« On ne discute pas avec les négationnistes. » (Pierre Vidal-Naquet).
Pierre Vidal-Naquet supported Gilles Veinstein in the end of 1990’s; in one of the last Vidal-Naquet’s article the “genocide” label is even replaced by “massacre” to call what happened to Ottoman Armenians.
M. Gauin doesn’t discuss anything anyway, and isn’t an historian despite his MA
My supervisor Michel Pigenet, director of the Center of Social History at Paris-I-Sorbonne University, would surely smile in reading that.
at least his model Pierre Loti admitted he hated them as well as Jews!
I did never write that Pierre Loti was “my model” (Loti was a novellist), and Loti did never write that he hated the Armenians, or even less the Jews. Quite the contrary, Loti praised the huge majority of Ottoman Jews, loyal subjects of the Sultan.
is gauin a man or a woman- some say he, others say she. in any case both genders should disappear from here.
haven’t we had enough of her ? or he.
gerard
is gauin a man or a woman-
A man.
haven’t we had enough of her ? or he.
Apparently no. And it was just reactions to some comments which I posted here. I wonder — in smiling — what will happen in the future.
I was about to miss this column.I am on others of Hairenik here.
Monsieur Maxime Gauin,
Why don´t you mention Professor Yves Ternont-who indeed is Armenophile- but without declaring it and sides with our plight 100%-Also gives us good advice.Like last I was in Paris April 2009 and he delivered a very interesting discourse w/rgd to what was on the International political scene that concerned us ,the Protocols, etc.,ending his discourse, and I quote (Parlement a Parlement).Oh yes it was April-after 24-U.S. again deneging on promises…
In short he emphasized the need for us to go look for support elsewhere.I imagine small and medium size countries..anyhow.Talk then was also somehow ,before ending in middle of his discourse and others´ about Armenian recent militancy.
It was my obsession to make clear to an audience such as the one that dubbed the Anghry Armenian youngmen´s as ¨terrorism¨ This took place at , 17 rue Bleue,I made my point that ours had been implemented by justice seeking mentioned,since the world diplomacy including the U.N. etc.,had turned deaf ears towards our JUST CAUSE(now ,pretty soon a CASE) .In my broken french I explained these were¨¨correctional acts of violence¨ directed ONLY at culprit´s r,of Turkey´s diplomats.Indeed a few failed targets excepted.When a few dear French compatriots sauffered,also one or two spaniards in Spain ,one in U.S. etc.All rest were to ¨despertar¨¨ awaken aforementioned also the adversary that our CAUSE was not buried as they thought. It had surfaced and would continue until justice served .
Armenians have always fought alongside the ¨good Guys¨´ that also I pointed out in Philladelphia University in 1988 Conf. when Mr. Gorbachov had expressed erroenously that the ÄRmenians were being punished¨when in Yerevan gthey took to the street, for the UNIFICATION OF NK with RA…I got up and said ¨he errs,witness our efforts alongside the British (Gen. Allenby in Palestine 1918´s,5000 Armenian volunteers along side his troops) many many more in the French combattents(M.Manuchian´s partisans against the Nazis..then again tens of thousands of Armenian youth in the U.S. Armies, and above all more than 200,000 in the Red Army(perished fighting against the common enemy the nazis then…
WE never sided with the BAD GUYS,nor played the role the Turks did like siding with the nazis and at the 11th hour near 12th declared war on the side of the allies.
Some day yes,like the French the Anglo Americans , Austrailiasn and all Anglos will awaken to reality and side with us ,when it will be too latge and they will have tasted the toikish ¨KHERS¨ means wrath..so much for now .
If Vidal-Naquet did support Veinstein (or Veinstein”s views???) = a) Mr. Gauin, you deny V-N said “you don’t discuss with denialists b) you suggest he did speak with denialists, the example being Veinstein, and so your sentence means that… Veinstein WAS a denialist with whom Vidal-Naquet talked…
Oh, so your supervisor is called Pigenet? Again, name dropping. If it is not just name dropping, what you mean is that Mr. Pigenet approves of your so-called scholarly methods, admires your honesty as well as your writings. Thanks to the internet now his name is associated with yours – and with your posts – he surely feels honored.
If Loti the French Armenian-hater isn’t your model, which French Armenian-hater is, then? Claude Farrère? Miammie… He finds that the murder of Armenians during the Hamidian massacres (that didn’t occur, of course) was a good thing – self defense… You also deny (What don’t you deny? That is the question, in fact) that Pierre Loti hated Jews?!!!! Everyone must read the passage pasted below, that can be found on-line. In it Loti even speaks of the visible stigma of opprobrium of having crucified Jesus! But there is much more. “Repaire de juiverie”: juiverie is derogatory. and repaire is mostly used for gangsters, pirates, wild and stinky animals.
There are references to the “evil eye” of those religious Jews, to theft, to physical ugliness, to cunning, abjection, to giving priority to making money over going to prayer, Loti speaks of his fright, his disgust, and describes the Jews of Jerusalem in an execrable way, as people who could be pitied if… they werent Jews. No pity for them, no. And Mr Gauin, don’t come and tell us that somewhere else he is appreciative of the Ashkenazi, as if it could erase what you can read below, which you already know just as you know what he wrote about Armenians, since you are a universal expert. No need to tell us that Loti didn’t hate Jews because… HE DIDN’T SAY: “YOU KNOW WHAT? I HATE ARMENIANS AND JEWS” – he spoke of Jews and Armenians in the most abominable way, and in the very terms that brought about the Holocaust or today’s assassination of individual Jews. If someone insults me and hits me, I don’t wait for him to write “I don’t like you” to know he doesn’t. And now Loti’s « non-hatred » of Jews :
Les robes sont magnifiques : des velours noirs, des velours bleus, des velours violets ou cramoisis, doublés de pelleteries précieuses. Les calottes sont toutes en velours noir, – bordées de fourrures à longs poils qui mettent dans l’ombre les nez en lame de couteau et les mauvais regards. Les visages, qui se détournent à demi pour nous examiner, sont presque tous d’une laideur spéciale, d’une laideur à donner le frisson : si minces, si effilés, si chafouins,, avec de si petits yeux sournois et larmoyants, sous des retombées de paupières mortes…Des teints blancs et roses de cire malsaine, et, sur toutes les oreilles, des tire-bouchons de cheveux, qui pendent comme les « anglaises » de 1830, complétant d’inquiétantes ressemblances de vieilles dames barbues
Il y a des vieillards surtout, des vieillards à l’expression basse, rusée, ignoble. Mais il y a aussi quelques tout jeunes, quelques tout petits Juifs, frais comme des bonbons de sucre peint, qui portent déjà deux papillotes comme les grands, et qui se dandinent et pleurent de même, une bible à la main. […]
En pénétrant dans ce cœur de la juiverie, mon impression est surtout de saisissement, de malaise et presque d’effroi. Nulle part je n’avais vu pareille exagération du type de nos vieux marchands d’habits, de guenilles et de peaux de lapin ; nulle part, des nez si pointus, si longs et si pâles. C’est chaque fois une petite commotion de surprise et de dégoût, quand un de ces vieux dos, voûtés sous le velours et la fourrure, se retourne à demi , et qu’une nouvelle paire d’yeux me regarde furtivement de côté, entre des papillotes pendantes et par-dessous des verres de lunettes. Vraiment, cela laisse un indélébile stigmate, d’avoir crucifié Jésus ; peut-être faut-il venir ici pour s’en convaincre,mais c’est indiscutable, il y a un signe particulier inscrit sur ces fronts, il y a un sceau d’opprobre dont toute cette race est marquée.
[…]
En soi, cela est unique, touchant et sublime : après tant de malheurs inouïs, après tant de siècles d’exil et de dispersion, l’attachement inébranlable de ce peuple à une patrie perdue ! Pour un peu, on pleurerait avec eux, – si ce n’était des Juifs, et si on ne se sentait le cœur étrangement glacé par toutes leurs abjectes figures. […] Ce soir est, paraît-il, un soir spécial pour mener deuil, car cette place est presque remplie. Et, à tout instant, il en arrive d’autres, toujours pareils, avec le même bonnet à poils, le même nez, les mêmes anglaises sur les tempes ; et aussi sordides et aussi laids, dans d’aussi belles robes. Ils passent, tête baissée sur leur bible ouverte, et tout en faisant mine de lire leurs jérémiades, nous jettent, de côté et en dessous, un coup d’œil comme une piqûre d’aiguille ; – puis vont grossir l’amas des vieux dos de velours qui se pressent le long de ces ruines du Temple : avec ce bourdonnement, dans le crépuscule, on dirait un essaim de ces mauvaises mouches, qui parfois s’assemblent, collés à la base des murailles. […]
Quand nous nous en allons, remontant vers la ville haute par d’affreuses petites ruelles déjà obscures, nous en croisons encore, des robes de velours et des longs nez, qui se dépêchent de descendre, rasent les murs pour aller pleurer en bas. Un peu en retard, ceux-là, car la nuit tombe ; – mais, vous savez les affaires !…Er au-dessus des noires maisonnettes et des toits proches, apparaît au loin, éclairé des dernières lueurs du couchant, l’échafaudage des antiques petites coupoles dont le mont Sion est couvert.
En sortant de ce repaire de la juiverie, où l’on éprouvait malgré soi je ne sais quelles préoccupations puériles de vols, de mauvais œil et de maléfices, c’est un soulagepment de revoir, au lieu des têtes basses, les belles attitudes arabes, au lieu des robes étriquées, les amples draperies nobles.
well ! have we, or have we not have had enough of this person.
let’s have a vote.
gerard
To Shantagizoum: Mr. Ternon was never a “professor” of anything, he is a retired surgeon; even on the back on his book Les Arméniens, histoire d’un génocide (1977 and 1996) he claims to be a surgeon (and is right on this point).
As a witness for ASALA terrorists who assaulted the Turkish consulate of Paris, Mr. Ternon used, among his main arguments, a quotation attributed to Atatürk. It was in the beginning of 1984. Unfortunately, James H. Tashjian, the most prominent intellectual of ARF in USA in the second half of XXth century, demonstrated in The Armenian Weekly then in the Armenian Review that this quotation was a fake. James H. Tashjian did that in 1982.
To Heda Kerkir: about Pierre Vidal-Naquet, I pointed a self-contradiction of my critiques — one among so many others. http://membres.multimania.fr/virtuel2/vn030299.html By the way, Vidal-Naquet was a specialist of ancien Greek (not one of the best) not of WWII or of denialism, unlike Dr. Valérie Igounet. You would not be happy in reading Dr. Igounet… http://tchat.nouvelobs.com/societe/forum_avec_valerie_igounet,20081210163422663.html
My work as a junior scholar is appreciated, by my supervisor and others; I feel comfortable with that.
Your quotation of Loti, 1894, is an example of anachronism and dishonest use of quotations. Loti slammed the pogroms in Russian Empire and praised the loyalty of Turkish Jews. Hatred is a strong word, completely irrelevant to label the feelings of Loti vis-à-vis the Jews. Guess who was Loti’s publisher: Calmann-Lévy!
L’Espagne
a eu l’Inquisition ; elle a cruellement
persécuté et expulsé les juifs, qui du reste se
sont réfugiés en Turquie, où, ne faisant point
de mal, ils ont été accueillis avec la plus absolue
tolérance et sont devenus de dévoués patriotes
ottomans.
“Spain had Inquisition; she persecuted cruelly her Jews, who found refuge in Ottoman Empire, where they did nothing wrong, so were welcomed with the most absolute tolerance, and became dedicated Ottoman patriots. (L’Espagne a eu l’Inquisition ; elle a cruellement persécuté et expulsé les juifs, qui du reste sesont réfugiés en Turquie, où, ne faisant point de mal, ils ont été accueillis avec la plus absolue tolérance et sont devenus de dévoués patriotes ottomans.)” (Les Alliés qu’il nous faudrait, Paris, Calmann-Lévy, 1919, p. 45).
Gerard,
I am with you. I think the guy has some ego problems–by the way, I smile very condescendingly while I am writing this, like he says he does and his supervisor would do. He keeps coming back and checking whether anyone has taken notice of him by responding to his comments and congratulates himself loudly on being considered. One of the reponses to him was made on 12/31, New Years Eve! Imagine that! And he immediately felt so elevated (poor thing). Who can possibly match such a success? Aren’t we all getting replies to most of our comments, anyway? Wouldn’t it be rude to ignore each other? Gauin, if you want us to ignore you, we’ll be happy to do it for you.
Maybe it’s time that we all start talking about our degrees earned, dissertations defended, prominent supervisors, exams passed, grade point averages, and other professional accomplishments.
A supervisor’s name and grades do not give credibility to your arguments, Gauin. Stop bringing them up, we heard about all of it enough. You sound very desparate when you do that. And your hatred of Armenians and bias against us is quite obvious.
Gerard,
By the way, I loved the artwork on your website. If I am ever in Toronto, I should make sure to visit your gallery.
“Guess who was Loti’s publisher: Calmann-Lévy!” And so what? Yet another unnecessary name-dropping.
“Your quotation of Loti, 1894, is an example of anachronism and dishonest use of quotations.” And why isn’t your quotation an example of anachronism?
I think the guy has some ego problems
Another complete misunderstanding. There is a great difference between teasing and “ego problems”.
A supervisor’s name and grades do not give credibility to your arguments, Gauin.
The inability of my contradictors to find appropriate and rational responses — in Boston like in Lyon — is a much better evidence of credibility, you are right.
You sound very desparate when you do that.
Desperate? Me? Quite the contrary. I have fun — many fun.
I have had enough of this person Gauin,
More he writs more he sounds like turk denier.
You are right, let’s ignore him, HE has no answers, rational or otherwise, and his honesty is what one may expect of a person who “has fun” with genocides, their denial and their consequences. But we can’t ignore what he intentionally ignores about Yves Ternon : Ternon was a surgeon indeed, and became interested in crimes against human through a study of nazi “medicine”. He is also a recognized historian, with a doctorate from University Paris IV-Sorbonne and has got an HDR, = he is Habilité à diriger des recherches, which he defended at university Paul Valéry in Montpellier, a famous university town since the Middle Ages. Not everyone gets a history doctorate from la Sorbonne. As for an HDR – which entitles one to supervise doctorates – it is the next and final stage in an academic’s life. It is only due to age – he is 78 – that Ternon, despite his achievements, which are the same as Gauin’s supervisor’s, could not and cannot be given a position as a professor in a university. Gauin is clearly accusing Ternon of being a fraud. But it is not until the age of 26 that he managed to have an MA when ordinary students get theirs at 23 and the best ones at 22. Obviously if he had done anything worthwhile in the mean time, he would have bragged about it already. A farewell suggestion : since Pierre Loti’s writing about the Jews in Jerusalem is fine and expresses no hatred of Jews, let Gauin post similar sentences on his websites and send a letter to his superviser including exactly the same stuff about Jews, with his own signature instead of Loti’s. He’ll see if the French courts find “the word hatred irrelevant to label his feelings towards Jews” or consider it as “teasing”. Apologies for responding one last time.
Heda Kerkir Above;
Are you Maxime Gauin (#2) Two?
To Gerard and Gina,
Though I joined in the debate/discussion, above, I see your points .This man not only has ego problems, as Gina puts it but is very much self centered and happy with his views.
Firstly,though I would not debate anything else with him any more,after what >I have read above,but first to make him understand why we feel he is as described.
Professor Yves Ternon -like he unconsciously or unwantingly admits is indeed a historian and well into Armenian affaitrs .More than quite a few French historians.He is very pro our Tahd/Cause and has always defended us.
As to the ässault¨,of the turkish consulate in on Sept .21,1981 NOT 1982,actually show of Protest when it was held hostage,until the French Authorities negotiated with the Angry Armenian young men carrying out ¨correctional acts of violence¨,as freedom fighters.These ,unlike lother who act as ¨ blind Terrorists¨defending the Armenian cause and not harming innocent people on the street or anywhere else…
Time for me to leave debating /discussing with such like,whether French,Armenian or otherwise. WE shall always be on the rightful side,period.
If any man don’t possess
The genes of Humanism
That can’t induce forcefully
As the brain dendrites ageing stiffness.
If there is no humanism
Democracy cannot parade.
Sylva
The next time a Genocide happens and women are raped, men are tortured, beheaded, have horse shoes nailed to the soles of their feet, pregnant women have their bellies cut open, people are marched on foot to the desert with no food, burned alive, their bank accounts, homes and lands confiscated, and young boys are forcefully circumcised etc etc make sure you tell Mr. Gauin so that he can have more “fun”. Especially when it is a Genocide where the perpetrator tells a distorted story where the roles are reversed, the criminal becomes the victim and the facts and eyewitness accounts are all thrown out the window, make sure you tell Mr. Gauin so that he can have extra “fun”.
The facts:
1. The Ottoman Empire occupied the Western part of the Armenian Plateau for 600 years.
2. The Armenians were subjected to tyranny, unbearable taxation, no right for trial by jury or due process, and were treated as second class citizens called “giavours” “dogs” or “infidels” upon their own historical lands.
3. The Christian Europeans were outraged by the inhumane treatment of the Armenians, in particular for the 1895-1896 massacre of 300,000 Armenians in the hands of the Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid, and the Adana massacre of 1906 which claimed the lives of 30,000 Armenians. Every time they tried to intercede, the Turks made life even more brutal for the Armenians.
4. WWI broke and the Alllies, France, Britain and Russia among others, encouraged the Armenians to revolt for their freedom and promised them independence once the war ended.
5. The Ottoman Empire was crumbling, and the Young Turks decided to annihilate the Armenians in order to retain the Armenian lands. While many of the lands that the empire held were remote, the Armenian lands were where the Turkish nation, which had originated from Central Asia, had come to settle and live in.
6. On April 24, 1915 under the pretext of removing “dangerous” or “suspect” internal enemies, the Turkish government arrested the Armenian communities’ leaders, including their writers, poets, composers, clergy and journalists. These individuals were unarmed and had mostly nothing to do with the freedom fighters. The primary goal of their execution was to render the Armenian community at large completely vulnerable, by cutting off all their communication with the outside world. By killing their writers, composers and clergy the Young Turks planned on uprooting the cultural foundation of the Armenian community.
7. Then came of course the “very well orchestrated and organized” mass “deportation” of “unarmed civilians”, and the temporary laws of property confiscation and Holy Jihad which were put out to give the deportation a “legal” semblance. Today, Turkish officials have the face to say that these “relocations” were essential security steps. They use the words “relocation” and “deportation” exactly the way their ancestors used them to cover up what actually happened on the ground. As the Armenians were forced out of their homes, Turks were settling into them. Women, men and children were marched under beatings with bayonets to remote places where “chetehs”, especial Turkish battalions consisting of released criminals and convicts, would attack them and brutally massacre them.
8. The Young Turks wanted to finish off the Armenians to create a homogenous “Turkey for the Turks” with Islam as the main religion. They were desperate to keep the Armenian lands to themselves otherwise their very existence in the caucasus would have been in jeopardy.
As we all know my friends, the Allies who were “in war with Turkey in WWI”, all betrayed us and now are “kissing up to Turkey”. Everyone forgot the historical facts. Turkey was in war in the Balkans and with the Allies… but today it talks about WWI as if it was in war with the Armenians, who had some freedom fighters on the eastern side, fighting for the right of their people for independence and freedom. Turkey blames the Armenians for the thousands of Turkish soldiers who were killed in war by the Balkans, the French, Britains and Russians. Everything is blamed on the few Armenian freedom fighters, because for Turkey the “Armenian cause” is much more dangerous than its official historical enemies. You see, the Armenian cause involves the “Armenian lands” that Turkey ended up keeping with Genocide and illegal deals. The Armenian people possess the deeds of the land where the current Turkish Presidential Palace sits, as well as the land of the US base in Injirlic, among many other properties.
The Armenian Genocide orphans struggled to form Armenian communities, while Armenia had to succomb to the Soviets. The years passed, the murder of 1.5 million innocent civilians went unpunished. At the absence of a viable Armenian community, Western Armenia which was awarded to the Armenians by President Woodrow Wilson was subjected to illegal weelings and dealings by the Europeans, Russians and Americans, and some Armenians did get dangerously frustrated and gave rise to ASALA, whose main objective was to remind the world of the unfinished case of first Genocide of the 20th Century. Even the fact that the word “Genocide” was coined by Lemkin specifically to describe what had happened to the Armenians got lost with the lure of oil, economic and geopolitical benefits Turkey was promising to its old enemies in return of getting a pass on the Armenian Genocide and the illegal annexation of Western Armenia.
And here we are…. a source of FUN to the scum of the world, because we did not have the resources and ability to take our claims to the International Justice Courts at the Hague where they belong.
This is truth, and we will continue repeating it. It is the truth as history has recorded it. It is the truth of our families.
monsieur gauin- now that we know that you are a man, an arrogant one at that, but you see you cannot help it, you know why g a u i n , it is because you are french, i am french too, born on the french riviera,(cote d’azur) with one big difference, i am armenian and proud of it and i have compasion for all my brothers and sisters that perished under the hands of those illeterate animals, turks, nothing has changed there.
you really get a high as you get people to respond to your innuendoes. don’t you realize that Armenians are highly educated and excel in ALL fields. you are taking us for something less than that.
i repeat, get your kicks somewhere else, go and drink a pernot or phone our idol, CHARLES AZNAVOUR, you’ll get a real dressing down.
TO ALL WRITERS,LET’S NOT RESPOND TO THIS HE PERSON, HE’LL DEFLATE EVENTUALLY, HE WON’T HAVE ANYONE TO TELL HIS WARPED SENSE OF HISTORY TO. WHERE IS YOUR E-MAIL ADDRESS MISTER, YOU KNOW YOU MISLEAD PEOPLE.
LET’S ALL STOP ANSWERING HIM, HE MIGHT ACCELARATE HIS ABUSES FOR A WHILE BUT EVENTUALLY HE’LL MAKE A FAUX PAS.
merry Armenian to all
gerard
Katia, abrees. Shnovor Soorp Tznoont.
Too, it is also that the civilized world that will not address Genocides… past and present, thus Genocides are still ongoing/unending. Such as a Foxman of Israel, a Obama of USA whose stance hinders and contributes to the existence still today of Genocides to be recognized as well as those that should never be allowed to occur in the future. Civilized nations seek their criminals and then justice is served. Yet, when the greatest crimes against humanity are perpetrated, Genocides, civilization is incapable of ending the cycle of Genocides… Why? OR, I’ve begun to believe that so-called civilized nations ARE NOT YET FULLY CIVILIZED… Civilization allowing innocents to suffer the crimes that vile perpetrators still are free to use for their own convoluted goals… inhumanity against humans ongoing/unending… today in the 21st century? Manooshag
Today is Armenian Soorp Tsenund. Shnorhavor bolorid. Lav eghek. Moratsec aboushin.
Katia K — I admire you’re words they are accurate and to the point; while reading hade tears in my eyes surely Thousands of readers felt the same and countless Thousands more to come yet will feel the same. This Gauin person coming onto these discussions with another phony name Gauin #2, We have his signature he is going to keep on doing what he has been he is a denier (that’s all he knows how to do best) Anyone trying to explain anything to him, it would be just like reading poetry to the Horses arss
Armenians: Today is sacred day, the Birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. This day brings hope and the new beginning in our lives. The fact that the Armenian nation still exists, having experienced the barbarity of the Turks, and that we have the Republic and Artsakh, is in and of itself God’s miracle and demonstration of His mercy. We will win this struggle for justice. Until then, let us forgive our transgressors, such as monsieur Gauin, as Lord teaches us.
I realize that English is not the primary language of Gauin. However, please allow me to make an English language correction that we should all notice and correct whenever we see it. When Gauin, in his ignorance, writes “…“genocide” label is even replaced by “massacre” to call what happened to Ottoman Armenians.”, it is incorrect to use the word “happened.” Correct English language usage is ” what was done to the Armenians.” Genocide is not something that accidentally or involuntarily happens. Genocide is a willful, planned act; it is something that is intentionally done. This is an important distinction in English language verb usage.
Well said Manoushag,
We had no representatives and no independant country to take our claims to the International courts, and this unfortunately was taken great advantage of by Turkey. The years that passed helped Turkey get rid of incriminating archives, change its alphabet, spread all sorts of cover up lies, and the same Europeans and Americans who possess the most damning archives on the Genocide are now in a trance caused by geopolotical advantages that Turkey has woven for itself. The H Res. 252 was simply a human rights measure to honor the historic truth about the Genocide and to become a reminder to the world that Genocides should never be tolerated, no matter how rich the countries involved or how powerful their friends are.
We have a duty to our ancestors to get justice for them. Others might not understand this drive because this unbelievably inhumane injustice has not happened to them. We should all work towards getting Armenia to represent our claims for lost human, cultural and natural resources as well as the illegal annexation of lands given back to us by presidential decree, to the International courts.
Merry Armenian Christmas to all!
Thanks for every pen
On this site
Every one is writing
By tense sweat and blood.
Please don’t pen more
Those scavengers
Don’t deserve to read
Your honest core.
God saves Arabs
Who kept us alive.
Turks Invaded Arab lands
And acted the same way.
Any where they invade
They can’t change their style.
They carry slayers genes
In any road they cart.
Civilized states obey them
As they are invaders like them.
Sylva-MD-Poetry
Bedros, you don’t think someone that uses the word Hedakerkir, and tries to demonstrate how kanelik yev dekhmar Gauin’s curious responses are could be one of his avatars, do you? It was impossible to let it be said that Ternon is a fraud. Indeed Gauin deserves to be ignored but to expose his “rhetorical” techniques might not be useless. And someone should have noticed that while boasting a resistant grandpa – whether of the first or the 25th hour – who fought against a totalitarian regime which occupied his country, the grand-son collaborates with two totalitarian regimes. Had “resistance” been genetic, he would rather support the Turkish and Azerbaijani dissidents and human rights activists persecuted by their governments. Where you may be right, Bedros, is that there may be a team of several Gauins. His absurd arguments – there is no Turkish blockade since the Georgian border is open!!! – do not make him less attractive to Turkish denialists and racists. Hürriyet loves him. It sure is not very pleasant to speak of all this on Christmas day. To Manooshag : virtually no one is lifting a finger for the Darfuri who could still be saved, nothing is being done for Christians in countries turned Muslim, so what can be expected concerning people who were annihilated 95 years ago? You too are certainly right : few people are civilized, indeed. Denial of the Tutsi’s genocide is already developping, and survivors who saw their relatives macheted are faced with that denial. The handful ofTernons, Taner Akçams, Ragip Zarakolus etc. give us a little hope, though. A great Christmas to the readers of the Armenian Weekly.
Thank you Bedros…
Although we are probably one of the most betrayed and abused nations on the face of the earth, we should be thankful for our independant Armenia, and strive first and foremost to make her stronger so that one day she can stand up and voice her rightful claims from Turkey.
Heda Kerkir,
I was trying to figure out your username and it never occured to me what it meant until you put the pieces together. I never doubted, however, the sincerity of your comments and find them sharp and relevant.
Katia jan, your pain is so obvious and we all share it. Who said the world is fair? But Heda Kerkir is right, nobody is lifting a finger for anyone else unless it somehow touches their own interests and well-being. We should accept that such is the world and not take it personal. Today we should celebrate our very own Republic, in whatever condition it is, and our Artsakh. Our victory in Artsakh is a significant step and, hopefully, the first one in turning things around, little by little.
Heda Kerkir; from passed experience that I formed my opinion about Gauin, [this was all about Gauin and my opinions] I don’t know you from a hole in the wall, All you needed to do is put a message in to this discussion and say NO I am not one of his #2.
I would have immediately thanked you for that comment; instead you come in
spiting out bunch of meaningless words to do you’re sort of a get back. Heda Kerkir; Happy New year Merry Armenian Christmases to all;
GINA – i loved your one-liner
gerard
Bedros,
Do we really have to be so hard on each other? Someone with username “Paul” did sound suspicious to me, too. However, I am not sure anybody else’s comments here are consistent with being #2 of the person whose name I don’t even want to mention. Take it easy.
We should stop crying in our beer and try to make the most of this situation. If I was a betting man, I would have bet that Nancy used the Armenian Genocide bill to secure a position for herself as minority leader. Another words in return for the opposition’s support she agreed to table the H Res. 252. Now how can ANC and Diaspora convert that into political capital? I will leave it to our lobby leaders to get more funding and favorable trade conditions for Armenia in the next round of discussions. After all she owes her position to us. As far as the Genocide is concerned, who cares what these people think, let’s take it to the international court. I am tired of begging for pity from odars.
FREDRICK- I AGREE. THE INTERNATIONAL COURT WAS AND IS THE WAY AHEAD. WHY, BUT WHY DID WE NOT PURSUE THAT ROUTE. NO ONE IS EVEN TALKING ABOUT IT TODAY. IS THERE SOME LEGAL HITCH THAT ATTORNEYS CANNOT REVERSE. TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE. SOMEONE HAS TO GET THE BALL ROLLING… PREFERABLY OUR HIGH POWERED ATTORNEYS IN CALIFORNIA.
WHAT ARE THEY WAITING FOR? THE 100th. ANNIVERSARY.
ALL THE BEST
GERARD
To Bedros : apologies, I didn”t intend to sound offensive, nor did I realize I was using meaningless words. It was a shock to be suspected of being a version of Gauin especially after reading all the stuff he has posted on lots of forums!!! But I am sorry. Re his obsession with ASALA, if Gauin’s grand-father was actually a resistant, Gauin must call him a terrorist since he was not a soldier in a regular, national army.
If you want to recognize “the French historian [who] won law battle against Armenian Diaspora” in case he turns up at a conference, google his name + Hurriyet for a cute photo.
And OK for not begging pity from others, OK for an international court. But why would judges – also ‘odars’ – retain their independence once they are submitted to blackmail and threats by Turkey and its economic and political supporters, perhaps even threats on their lives? Why would they be more courageous than the most powerful man on earth- Obama? There are billions of dollars of restitution and compensation money at stake, not to mention land, aren’t there? So why wouldTurkey let the judges do their job ? I hope I am needlessly pessimistic. Thanks Gina and Katia for your beautiful and moving posts.
to all- i’ve been looking at the website of the International Court of Justice at the Hague. it seems only a country can go against another, no individual can approach them for a personal claim. it seems our motherland has to take the initiative.
the court’s website is http://www.icj-cij.org
it makes for interesting reading. at this point we can only wonder why this “initiative” has not been initiated and finally what can be done about it. 100 years is fast approaching.
thank you for your attention and input.
a bientot
gerard
gerard
Gerard, you are, of course, right that we cannot go forward without Armenia pursuing our case in the international courts. As you can see from this post and many others, the Diaspora is clamoring for the restoration of our borders as well as complete restitution. You ask why has it not “been initiated,” and “what can be done about it”? The answer is in two of Katia’s posts. She wrote: “It seems that the only entity that we seriously need to work on is Armenia! Our people should come together in the preparation of our legal case within the parameters set by international laws. Our case will be meaningless without Armenia. Armenia’s silence and the Armenian Assembly’s shenanigans should be addressed as the most damning hurdles in the progress of our cause.”
Katia also wrote: “We should all work towards getting Armenia to represent our claims for lost human, cultural and natural resources as well as the illegal annexation of lands given back to us by presidential decree, to the International courts.”
Armenia can no longer ignore Diaspora demands for court justice. We have waited almost 100 years for justice. We need the ANCA to start pressuring Armenia for action. We need to implement mjm’s suggestion to “Create possibilities for larger presence of the Diasporan Armenians in the Republic and their influence on the decision-making process.”
Gerard:
The International Court of Justice’s decision are not binding at the international level. ICJ”s decision making authority depends for the most part on the willingness of states (such as Turkey) to amicably resolve the case (genocide). So the most serious infractions of international law often go untouched by the court, because many states are not willing to submit their disputes for adjudication. ICJ was certainly never designed to rule this world. It offers some forum for discussions, cooperation s, and consensus building on issue. If Armenia (which does not have that -super-geopolitical, geo-economic resources) takes the case to International Court of Justice, and then the judge may throw away the case if Turkey does not show up, because Turkey has a sovereign state right, meaning no state can tell another state what to do, or even if the court rules in favor of justice (Armenia), again Turkey will not comply with that decision (as we see). There is no International law enforcement agency (Interpol is another structure) who will enforce ICJ’s decision. ICJ possess only a voluntary and most of the time ineffective judiciary.
You can sue Turkish corporation and insurance companies at the national level as much as you want or as much as you can, but international level it will not work, that’s why the issue becomes politicized. International pressure (which I don’t see coming) or the willingness of Turkey, …I don’t see any of them happening…..
In the South Caucus the tension is already sky high, we can sit in our comfortable houses in Western countries and write our thoughts, but at the end of the day, it is Armenians in Armenia that they face the danger of Turkey, so to complain that Armenia (or its’ government ) does not do enough is extremely naïve…
Gerard:
So, the only choice we have is to help RA militarily and economically…..
I hope this helped…
Hovo, I would add brain power to your list. Let’s make sure RA has the skill and the know how to use the aid. Diaspora Armenians have been very standoffish when it comes to going to Armenia and helping or maybe, it is the Armenians of Armenia who avoid using the help? Either way Diaspora and Armenia need to be united.
I agree with Hovo that to complain that Armenia doesn’t do enough for advancing the Cause is naïve. Geopolitics has its own rules that you must follow in order to maintain national security. Having said this, I think there are venues that the Armenian government can pursue to advance the Cause without harming its national security. In this, it certainly doesn’t do enough, and sometimes even harms the Cause (protocols, etc.). At the same time, the Republic needs to understand that by offering establishment of relations with Turkey without preconditions, it has gained practically nothing: the borders are closed, the economic blockade is imposed, and full support for the third country, Azerbaijan, continues — all done by Turkey. I mean to say, at a certain point Armenia should realize that its good intentions to have neighborly relations with the Turks were left unanswered. Therefore, time may come for more decisive actions, ICJ being one of them.
I disagree that “ICJ was certainly never designed to rule this world.” Many alternative scholars, who are wrongly called “conspiracy theorists,” believe that the UN, ICJ, and NATO have, in fact, been designed to rule the world, the only difference being that they were designed to rule the “new world” or represent the one world government. Irrespective of this, I think it is unwise to stop short of submitting claims to ICJ because the Court’s decisions are not binding. Parliamentary resolutions of individual nation-states are not binding, too. Provincial governments’ resolutions are non-binding, so are resolutions of professional associations and human rights groups. Yet, we pursued these venues because they represent segments of international pressure, which Hovo doesn’t see coming, but which exist and are instrumental in terms of triggering Turkey’s anxiety and keeping the Cause alive throughout the world. Likewise ICJ. The case submission will demonstrate to the parliaments of several key countries still reluctant to name Turkish crimes against humanity by their names, the U.S. being the most important, that we are capable of taking the case to higher levels. ICJ’s non-binding decision should not be viewed in terms of how or if at all it’d be enforced, but in terms of added international consensus on that the extermination of millions of Armenians by Ottoman Turks constituted a crime that is punishable by the UN Convention on Genocide.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persist in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man (George Bernard Shaw). Therefore, we all must join to the ranks of the unreasonable, and we should never give up the justice…Mjm, I was talking about the possible result rather than the process, anyway i agree with you…
Turkey is hell bent on stopping us from getting justice and getting stronger as a Nation. The minute Armenia got its independance, Turkey blockaded it and sanctioned it mercilessly using Nagorno Karabagh as pretense. It took the first opportunity to do that to ensure that our Nation would struggle to stand on its feet, and would not be able to do anything else but concern itself with basic survival necessities. That strategy worked so well, that it brought Armenia to Turkey’s door with “protocol agreements” which were almost a declaration of surrender of rights to land and justice. Turkey spits on the concept of Self Determination. Turkey would have kept Western Armenia for good with the protocols, except it became overly greedy and wanted Karabagh to be thrown in there also. Armenia might have considered selling off the rights of the Diaspora, but it stopped in its tracks when it came to Karabagh. Turkey has been openly helping out Azerbaijan with albeit American weapons, against the people of Artsakh who are only exercising their right for self determination on the historically Armenian enclave of Karabagh that was given to Azerbaijan by Stalin in 1920s.
Turkey and Azerbaijan are winning the war of spreading their propaganda of Karabagh being “occupied” Azeri land, whereas the truth is that once the Azeris gained independence, they committed progroms against the Armenians, they attacked Karabagh full force in order to ethnically cleanse it AND THEY FAILED. The winner of a war that was forced upon it, and the rightful owner of that land is now being misconstrued by Turkey and Azerbaijan as being an “aggressor” and “occupier”. The”war of winning over minds” is a real one, and again here the Armenians do not have enough resources or a united front.
The Genocide was supposed to throw us back 100 years and it did. The blockade by Turkey was supposed to crush Armenia and hold it hostage. The only reason why it has not succeeded completely, is because of the support of the Diaspora. So next, Turkey is working on cutting off the Diaspora by putting a wedge between Armenia and the Diaspora, by trying to brainwash the Armenian leadership that the Diaspora is “hampering” its progress. Is the Diaspora the one blockading Armenia or is it Turkey????!
Two mistakes by Armenia that cost our cause dearly:
1. When the EU announced that it would not accept Turkey in the union unless Turkey acknowledged the Genocide was the perfect time in history for Armenia to take advantage of the moment and go to the International Justice Courts with its claims. What happened instead was an imbalanced discourse between the Diaspora which succeeded in getting major European countries to openly acknowledge our Genocide, and the complete paralysis of Armenia in this regard which KILLED THE MOMENTUM OF GENOCIDE RECOGNITION. The European countries expected Armenia to act upon the international recognition. Armenia’s lack of action however, extinguished the fire that the Diaspora had worked so hard to ignite. This allowed Turkey the time to kiss up the Europe… and now Europe does not even remember why it did not accept Turkey in the EU!
2. Armenia should have had recognized Nagorno Karabagh as an independant Republic as soon as Karabagh announced its independance. Not doing exactly that was a major mistake (my thoughts). It deligitimized Karbagh’s struggle for self determination, and undermined and wasted the tremendous victory of the Karabaghzis. In addition, it let the wound fester instead of closing it once and for all, and standing up for Karabagh’s right for self determination. Fifeen years later, that action gave rise to propaganda such as “the Republic of Karabagh is not legitimate, even Armenia has not recognized it” by Azerbaijan and its friends.
3. We have, once again, fallen in our old habits of not uniting. Why did Armenia not pass a “dual citizenship” law for the Diasporans? Why is Armenia shying from its responsibilities of a motherland that needs to represent the claims and demands of all its people?
A cause cannot win when its bearers cannot be decisive, focused and brave. One thing about Turkey… it is against Armenia openly and consistantly with all it’s got, and the hell with the world. Our side unfortunately has always lacked focus, integrity and unity of vision and action. We “put the world first” instead of putting our people and our cause above everything.
Katia K… Very well said;
“””One thing about Turkey… it is against Armenia openly and consistantly with all it’s got”””,
Every Armenian has a duty openly to Boycott turkey; I mean total boycott [just as turkey openly justify a blockade of Armenia] Not to visit, or even pass through turkey [[go and vacation into Lebanon, Greece, Spain, any part of Europe]] not to purchase anything made or from turkey. Two counties in the Word that blockade a neighboring Country is tukey and Israel. The only Two counties in the Word that used military F16 plans to kill Babies are turkey in Cyprus[[without blink of an eye they would do it again]] Israel in Palestine, rmember TOTAL Boycott:
Katia, I am with you in your concern over the lack of cohesive focus in the Armenian Community today with regard to combating Turkish denial of the Armenian Genocide, especially as we stand on the threshold of the 100th anniversary of these tragic events. I keep hoping that a unifying leader will emerge from our Republic, our church or our diasporan organizations. There is so much passion in our community waiting to be harnessed. I think we are beginning to realize the limits of looking to other nations or politicians to champion our cause. While international support is important, we can’t rely upon other nations or governments to provide the ‘fuel’ to drive our campaign for long overdue justice. We have survived for a reason and have a universal cause worth fighting for. We have to keep sight of this and fight against the apathy and defeatism that overtakes us in the face of opposition and denial from Turkey, a large and powerful adversary. Many Davids have defeated Goliaths in the past and we have to believe that we can stand up to our giant and win.
Every Armenian has a duty openly Boycott products and services from turkey;
a total boycott [just as turkey openly justify a blockade of Armenia] Not to visit, or even
pass through turkey [[go and vacation into Lebanon, Greece, Spain, any part of Europe]]not to purchase anything made or from turkey. Two counties in the Word that blockade a neighboring Country is tukey and Israel. openly Boycott products and services from turkey.
It is disapointing when House Speaker Nancy Pelosi failed again to bring to the floor our Armenian Genocide and it is more disapointing when the Armenian Government has not pushed the U. S. for this long delayed recognition. The Turks tell the American Government not to recognize our Genocide but the Armenian Government fails to back up the Diaspora Armenian Lobby. Are we working in vain? Stephan Dulgarian