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Hate Crime Targets Gay Friendly Bar in Yerevan, MPs Bail out Assailants

YEREVAN (A.W.)—A homemade bomb this month targeted a bar, called “DIY,” which is seen as a haven for “free thinkers” and welcomes the often-shunned gay community of Yerevan. The hate crime, which happened just two days after the parliamentary elections, has given way to controversy, as ARF MPs Artsvik Minasyan and Hrayr Karapetyan reportedly posted the one million dram (approximately USD 2,500) bail to free the assailants.

A homemade bomb targeted a bar, DIY, that is seen as a haven for “free thinkers” and welcoming towards the often-shunned gay community of Yerevan.

The attackers, Iranian-Armenian brothers Hampig and Mgrdich (also referred to as Arame) Khapazian, are said to have targeted bar owner Tsomak Oganesova for her activism in the LGBT community, and her participation in a Gay Pride Parade in Turkey.

No one happened to be at the bar at the time of the attack, which happened during the early morning hours on May 8. However, substantial damage was reported to the walls and furniture, which were burned from the bomb.

In an interview with Panorama news agency, Minasyan said, “I consider [Oganesova’s] types—I don’t want to sound offensive—destructive to Armenian society.”

When asked why he decided to post bail, Minasyan said, “Why? Because knowing those youth, I consider them normal people. The investigation will reveal to what degree the violation they committed endangered public safety.”

“In the given situation, I am convinced that those youth acted the right way, in the context of our societal and national ideals. It is a different matter if certain damage has been caused, and compensation must be paid,” he added.

During a press conference, Oganesova said that the ARF has continued to persecute her, and that she will present her evidence before the law.

MPs acted on their own, says ARF member

Another ARF member, Nvart Manasyan, told Epress that her party is not a totalitarian organization, and that its members have the right to express their own opinions. She also said that Minasyan’s reasons for bailing out the attackers should not be linked to the party.

Manasyan said that the ARF is a party that advocates democracy and socialism; that it operates according to the Armenian Constitution, where xenophobia is forbidden; and that it is impossible to condemn such a party for ultra-nationalism.

There was an overwhelming outcry on social networking sites such as Facebook and Twitter condemning Minasyan’s act, and some demanding that the ARF leadership respond.

Swastikas painted on walls

On May 15, a second attack reportedly occurred. A group of men spat on the bar, burned anti-fascism posters, and spray-painted swastikas on the walls. Two of these attackers were reportedly arrested.

180 Comments on Hate Crime Targets Gay Friendly Bar in Yerevan, MPs Bail out Assailants

  1. avatar Tranny_Laila // May 15, 2012 at 4:21 pm // Reply

    I support GLBT rights in Armenia; just like I support GLBT rights in my country, Turkey, and everywhere in the world.

    I hope that such incidents will be dealt with in a more firm and just way in the future.

  2. Anyway, the lawyer is Dashnag, the ones that paid the money are dashnags, the grandfather of the alleged criminals are dashnags… though I know of open-minded dashnags, too, this sh*t is just gross…..

    Dashnags were terrorising Istanbul in the past… is the new target Yerevan nowadays? I am too emotional, but that Artsvi thing is too offensive and overnationalistic. The given translation in English is too soft; he’s more crude in the original language (“Tsomak’s kind – I don’t want to sound rude – destroys our society” he said).

    Shame on such dashnags. What will the headquarter do? Will they go away with supporting an act of terrorism in Yerevan? It was terrorism as the building is also inhabited by people. What if the fire would go up from the basement where the club is??? A pure act of hate crime and terrorism to spread hatred and intolerance……

    NO TO FASCISM & NAZISM!! NO TO XENOPHOBIA & HOMOPHOBIA!! SHAME!!

    • Yeah “Sevak”, the Dashnags were terrorizing Istanbul and now Yerevan. (rolls eyes).

      While I don’t advocate violence, this should be a message that not everyone agrees with the ‘popular’ trend to support the GLBT lifestyle. People get in trouble for voicing their concern, so they take it a step further with violence. Homophobia is nothing more than Jews yelling anti semite when you criticize their policies.

    • It’s all so clear now Jack, why try to fight with words when you have bombs. So if a Muslim in Armenia bombed a church you’d be okay with it? Would you say: “Because a Muslim would get in trouble for launching anti-Christianity campaign, they took it a step further with violence.” Or, would you condemn the cowardly act of terrorism? You don’t have to answer, you and I both know the answer. Selective justice is not justice.

      Furthermore, why should the gay community think what you or archaic minded people like you think? They don’t tell YOU how to live your life, why should you have that right? Because you are majority and they are the minority. That mentality right there is what’s wrong with the world.

    • RVDV, my point was that since they will get into trouble voicing their concern, they will commit acts of violence since they will get into trouble anyway. Of course gay community does not tell me how to live my life, there is nothing wrong with my life. I want these people to get help. I don’t want them to shove their twisted choices down everyone’s throat. We don’t need to teach kids there can be two mommy’s or two daddy’s or how it’s okay and normal part of human nature. It’s not.

    • Dear Sevak

      ” Dashnags were terroising Istanbul” ???? You sound like a denalist turk.

      I dont condone these actions, but nor do I insult a great majority of Diaspora Armenians, with such hateful comments… For your information Dashnaks were fighting all over Western Armenia trying to save our people from extermination, but hey thats OK, you seem very deterimined to insult the Dashnaks, and between all of your so called concerns your true intentions are shinning through.

  3. Yes Jack! you are advocating violence. I disagree with boring, traditional christian lifestyle that some Armenians have! BUT i think they have a right to live their lives the way they want. that’s the essence of democratic culture! people get in trouble for voicing their concerns so they take it a step further? so does that mean Ogun Samast had a trouble voicing his concern and he took it a step further? are you serious? burning a pub because it is owned by a LGBT activist IS homophobia and nothing else!

  4. Lusine, this has nothing to do with Christianity. I am not a religious person. I’m sorry that you feel traditional life style is boring for you, maybe you should find a hobby, or take the lesbian route. People don’t have the right to live the way they want. Mental disorders are a part of life. There are sick, twisted, perverted individuals. They can all get help. At one point psychiatrists and psychologists recognized the mental disorder of LGBT people but they refused help and scientists fear even touching the subject anymore. Now liberal nut jobs want to decay society instead of fixing it.

    • Dear Moderator/Editor, if my comments are going to be censored and edited, at least do the respectful thing and make a note as such where you snip text. You also proved my point for me personally: if there is really nothing wrong with this issue, why the censor? Respectfully, Jack

  5. It’s a positive sign that the Armenian Weekly has published this report. But the Tashnag party must do more: reprimand Minasyan and strip him of his powers. His statements threaten innocent civilians. Does the Tashnag party really want to be representative of statements and actions like his, that condone violence against all free-thinking and progressive Armenians?

  6. No no, Jack, this was my fault. I’m sorry I ever engaged in a conversation who think thinks ” People don’t have the right to live the way they want,” (Which, in the civilized world they do) and that homosexuality is a “twisted” choice and a “mental disorder.”

    “At one point psychiatrists and psychologists recognized the mental disorder of LGBT people”

    Was this around the same time when black people were “proven” to be a different subspecies than white people?

    “We don’t need to teach kids there can be two mommy’s or two daddy’s..”

    So people can’t be openly gay because you don’t want to have a 30 second conversation with your kid?

    See, on planet earth, us regular human beings realize the difference between a choice and human nature. THIS has been scientifically proven. Not that crap you were claiming above. I humbly invite you to get out of your homophobic closet, and join the rest of us regular humans in this millennium.

    And on behalf of “liberal nut jobs” I apologize for us trying to protect the rights of minorities and make the world a better place. Some of us value the life and rights of people who are not like us, because above all we are humans. Apparently gay rights are as important to you, as Iraqi lives were to George Bush- who was probably a hero of yours.

  7. RVDV: You are naive if you think people can live the way they want. Everyone is under control. Everyone. And homosexuality IS a mental disorder. Go research it from credible sources, although you will not find it in the mainstream anymore. You are not protecting the rights of minorities nor making the world or society a better place. You are all fools and sheep who do as you are told and led to believe. If people like you ran Armenia it would have been taken over by now. Sarkissian already stopped a foreign take over a few years ago. I am happy and proud those in power in Armenia have the knowledge and means to protect our nation. Bravo.

    That is all, I’m not going to waste my time anymore on this topic. Btw, the owner is Armine Oganesova not “Tsomak”.

    • True, your time would be better spent finishing your grade school education. Best of luck in your future endeavors.

      Oh, and regarding: “If people like you ran Armenia it would have been taken over by now.”

      You have a point. I am a Turk, so if I ran Armenia that WOULD mean Armenia would have been taken over.

      “I am happy and proud those in power in Armenia have the knowledge and means to protect our nation”

      Good to know. Did you notice these cowards were only man enough to attack at night? *assuming you have basic reading comprehension.

  8. Maybe there is an attempt to denigrate Dashnags…
    and it’s really almost too hard to believe there was Gay Pride Parade in Turkey.

    • “Gay Pride Istanbul is the annual gay pride march and LGBT demonstration which is held in the biggest city of Turkey, Istanbul. The first pride took place in 2003. The number increased exponentially each year, with around 5,000 people gathering and marching in the 2010 pride march. The 2011 edition of the march attracted over 10,000 people and therefore the Istanbul pride march is considered the biggest in eastern Europe.”

      Amazing what Wikipedia and an open mind can achieve.

  9. In my honest opinion comments should be locked on this story. Things will take an ugly turn otherwise.

    As for the issue itself, it reminds us that Armenian cultural values are very old-fashioned, and clearly there is not a single group in Armenia that is truly working to change the perception of GLBT people. The ARF, as a party that champions social equality, should be the brave voice that makes the unpopular voice of rationality be heard. But instead, its own MPs are posting bail for not only simple homophobes, but people WHO ACTUALLY COMMIT VIOLENCE.

    Only one thing to be said – shame.

  10. I wish there was a like button so I could like RVDV’s comments. AND YES jack, you won’t find anything about LGBT’s being mentally ill in mainstream literature. the same way you won’t find anything about scientifically proven superiority of x or y race (or higher IQ of x or y race) in scientific literature anymore! your ideas are just unproven beliefs. Homosexuality IS NOT a mental disorder. read new stuff. you are a bit behind!

  11. avatar Live and Let Live // May 16, 2012 at 12:46 am // Reply

    For any Armenian, whose people have been subjected to a Genocide to commit violence of his manner is shameful. For ARF MP’s to condone these acts is not acceptable. Maxin Gauin and other Turkophiles bring up these kinds of actions in an attempt to neutralize the enormity of the Armenian Genocide. ARF members should work to diffuse their image as radicals in the worldwide community, not bolster that image.

  12. avatar Antranig Minassian // May 16, 2012 at 1:21 am // Reply

    Did anybody bother to read the real reporting on this issue in the Armenian press? Although Artsvik Minasyan acknowledges posting bail but nowhere Hrayr Karapetyan’s name comes up as a person who aknowledges posting the bail. Then, did anybody bother to see also Minasyan’s reply to the papers where he discusses his proposals to the Parliament on the law governing the arrests of people in Armenia? Did anybody bother to look at the ARF’s official spokesperson’s response on this issue – as long as the Armenian Weekly itself and some of the commentators are linking it to the ARF just because Oganesova says so? BTW, Nvart Manasyan is not the ARF spokesperson, Spartak Seyranian is and he has been questioned on this by the press in Armenia.

    Oganesova is free to live her life the way she wants to, that’s not the point. The judicial system of Armenia must take its course and punish/free the accused (who, as far as I know about Western justice, enjoy the presumption of innocence until proven guilty). So, is the Weekly pursuing journalistic goals by informing the public of a grave incident of Armenia or bash the ARF?

  13. I agree with Jack, as do most Armenians, especially in Armenia. Apres to the ARF on this issue, they took the proper side. The lgbt types can go to Holland and contribute to the degeneration there.

    • I have no knowledge or opinion about the political issues presented by this incident, but I know a few things both as an American and as an Armenian Christian. And so do you.

      First, this was an arson and major act of vandalism which easily could have resulted in multiple counts of murder. Whether most Armenians are “against” homosexuality or are against people living openly as homosexuals is not a defense to this crime. It’s irrelevant.

      I also doubt that even if the average Armenian has antipathy to an out gay person, he or she thinks it follows that a bar should be torched and lives endangered.

      If the Turks say that most of them do not want Armenians in their country living openly as Armenians in Turkey, do they have license to commit murder of Armenians and arson of our Churches? I think we know that answer.

      Second, we profess and brag about Christianity. How can you reconcile Christian beliefs and traditions with intentional harm to any person, no matter their orientation or openness? Are we Armenian Christians, or just plain old Armenians?

      The rule of law protects everyone. Not just those we like. Same for free speech. If members of the government committed the crimes, or are sheltering the persons who committed them, they should resign. The upholders of the rule of law must not subvert it.

      It’s a moral disgrace to defend these actions. How can we as a people appeal, as we all too often must, to the moral conscience of others, if we turn the blind eye to this injustice?

      When did gay people become unworthy of respect and protection?

  14. Dear Sevak

    ” Dashnags were terroising Istanbul” ???? You sound like a denalist turk.

    I dont condone these actions, but nor do I insult a great majority of Diaspora Armenians, with such hateful comments… For your information Dashnaks were fighting all over Western Armenia trying to save our people from extermination, but hey thats OK, you seem very deterimined to insult the Dashnaks, and between all of your so called concerns your true intentions are shinning through.

  15. avatar Avetik Yessayan // May 16, 2012 at 3:42 am // Reply

    Երեւույթը հայկական է: Իսկ կարծիքներ թողել են միայն օտարածինները, հայ ազգային արժեքի վրա թքած ունեցողները, հայկական կուռ կոնսերվատիզմը փլուզել ցանկացողներն ու անհասները: Երեւոյթը հայկական է, սակայն ոչ մի հայատառ կարծիք: Երանի թե մեր պապերը այստեղ լինեին, տեսնեին մինչեւ էլ ուր կարելի է իջնել: Տեսնեին թե էլ ինչ տեսակ նվաստ ծոռներ կարելի է վիժեցվեն, որոնք պաշտպան կարող են կանգնել հայ տղամարդու ստորացման գործընթացին … ու նման բար-կրթօջախների ստեղծմանը …

    Ազատություն Համբիկին ու Մկրտիչին !

  16. Mardehros, not only is their an annual Gay Pride in Istanbul, but Armenians also participate alongside Turks and with their own signs:

    http://gayarmenia.blogspot.com/2010/07/side-by-side-turkish-and-armenian-signs.html

  17. Shocked to see something like this happening in other parts of the world and want to express our support to those that have been attacked. Here in the UK we set up a group called 17-24-30 which you can find on facebook which organises an International day of hope and remembrance in October each year – perhaps we could link up and hold vigils on the same day (20th Oct this year). Mark from 17-24-30

  18. God has created Adam and Eve, a man and a woman to be bound in the marital relationship, not Adam and Adam or Eve and Eve.

    Jack, AR, and many other like-minded people in Armenia, you have my support. I think the actions of these two individuals were not an expression of homophobia but discontent for blasphemy that’s being allowed to express itself in the orthodox human society.

    • Hi Serko,

      Until you do three things, you have no credibility:

      1. Prove that God exists.
      2. Prove that God created humans/Disprove evolution.
      3. Prove to me that humans must live their lives according to religious doctrine, and that humans have the authority to punish “blasphemy” through vigilante justice.

  19. avatar Ara Khachatryan // May 16, 2012 at 9:09 am // Reply

    Please join my FB event and sign this petition if your condemn ARF’s act. We are calling on the Socialist International to exclude ARF from its ranks or to suspend its membership in this organization.

    http://www.change.org/petitions/the-socialist-international-london-uk-suspend-the-full-membership-of-arf#

  20. First of all armenians are very homophobic ,they have no tolerance.Their minds are
    still in the 19 century in the villages of the ottoman Empire.Second the 2 persons who
    bomb the place are suppose to be Iranian armenians and the ones to bail them out
    are also Iranian armenians. They have been brought up also in a society where
    homosexuality is not tolerated and a place where they hang homosexuals , where
    they beat up and also killed their wives if they get out of line ,Armenia is next door
    to an islamic Republic which is very barbaric.

    • avatar Hairenakitz on YouTube // May 16, 2012 at 10:45 am //

      @ Richard

      Gay bashing and xenophobia has no nationality, nor territorial boundary!
      Iranian Armenian, US Armenian or Armenia Armenians are the same!

      By reading through this article, I can clearly see this is more ultra-nationalistic violence (as justified by ARF MP Artsvik Minasyan) under xenophobic pretext
      by ultra right and fascist elements.

      I understand owner Tsomak Oganesova’s participation in a Gay Pride Parade in Turkey may have been the main precursor of this attack than her Lesbian/Gay activism.

      However, such violent actions should not have been bailed or defended at all by ARF MPs, and ARF organization despite its declarations has once again is liable in nurturing totalitarian and fascist elements within its ranks.

  21. RVDV et al,

    Re: ” People don’t have the right to live the way they want”. There’s nothing derogatory or fallacious about this statement. Essentially, nowhere do people live the way they want, including in the civilized world. If one chooses not to restrict his or her lifestyle by the Ten Commandments, then it one way or the other will be restrained by mundane laws and regulations of one’s country of residence.

    People have forgotten the lifestyle that God has assigned to them, just like they’ve disobeyed God while Moses was on the Mount of Sinai receiving Commandments. Just like they’ve allowed themselves to live the way they want and worship a god—the golden calf—that they’ve made for themselves. How many times in one’s life God has shown—through hardship and deprivation—that the only way of life for the mankind is the one He offered in His Word?

    I also tend to believe that homosexuality is a twisted choice, because no such a choice is found or endorsed by God when He created Adam and Eve. This said, I condemn violence against any human being.

    • Honestly, I am also not a huge fan of homosexuality, but just because I personally do not agree with their lifestyle doesn’t mean they shouldn’t have equal rights, and it also doesn’t warrant us to attempt to write off what they’re doing as a “choice.”

    • Paul, I tend to believe that religion is a twisted choice because it presumes to know what GOD expects of us. And don’t bother trying to quote a religious text because nobody has any proof that they contain GOD’s words. We do, in fact, have a lot of proof that they were written by men, who had their own agendas — primarily, to control the uneducated masses.

      I think it is the ultimate human arrogance to believe that GOD cares what you think or do — it would be like a seahorse trying to guess how we expect them to live their lives. If GOD exists and if he intends to judge us upon our deaths, I would expect that he’s going to judge us based on who we harmed, not who we loved.

    • Yet religion accompanies the entire history of the mankind, therefore hardly can it be qualified as “choice”.

      It boils down to how you interpret the scriptures –spiritually or naturalistically? Naturalistically, you may suspect they were written by “men who wished to control the uneducated masses”. Spiritually, it’s much deeper than this primal explanation. If you consider yourself an uncontrolled, educated person, are you capable of living your life entirely as you wish?

      I was an unbeliever most of my life but after a series of unplanned, unimaginable, unpremeditated, unconnected, and unexplainable events I came to believe that God does care what you think or do.

  22. Richard —

    You should be ashamed of your ignorance. Iranians, the descendants of ancient Persians, are barbaric? One of the most ancient peoples inhabiting the Earth. One of the earliest and distinct human civilizations. If Iranians/Persians are barbaric, then the old-time descendants of Seljuk nomads to Armenia’s South-West and the East are who?

    I don’t think this case was an expression of Armenians’ homophobia and intolerance. I think it was an outburst of anger and irritation against a trend that’s so alien and so outrageous to the fabric of the traditional Armenian society and the fundamentals of Godly behavior.

  23. Anyone who still belives that ‘God created Adam and Eve’ is a medieval peasant who might as well believe in demonic possession, witches and magic.

    All those things are in the Bible and all of those thigns are riodiculous superstitions: utter rubbish that no modern person could possibly believe.

    God did not create Adam and Eve: we now know about DNA and evolution of the species so you can keep your stupid fairy tales.

    I spit on your foolish beliefs and the pathetic excuse for ‘morality;’ that you get from them.

  24. If God exists why does her curse the countries that believe in him with the most poverty and war and bless the countris that are secular and atheist with the highest standards of living and the most power?

    Oh and those MPs should be kicked out of their party for openly condoning attempted MURDER.

  25. The Dashnak Party needs to clearly and vocally condemn these acts, and to censure its MPs who posted bail for the suspects.

    If it does not, it will prove its critics right, showing itself to be a party of counterproductive extremists.

    Progressive Dashnaks: now is the time to speak out, or quit. This outrage is happening in your name, and silence is complicity.

  26. There are won’t be any marches in Yerevan. No candle lights, no straight folks walking hand in hand with gays or bi’s in the streets of Yerevan claiming the governments disapproval of such hate crime.

    What are they waiting for ? Do they need some dead bodies ? A sensational crime scene decorated by bloodshed … what the hell the Armenian people are waiting for ? Go out ! Shout out, people ! Say “we don’t want bigotery in this country ! We had enough of it !

    What ? This issue doesn’t concern you ? What if you will be the next target and nobody will come out to stand up for you ?

    Think about it !

  27. Moderators,

    Are hate-filled, inflammatory expressions “I spit on your foolish [religious] beliefs” allowed here, based on AW policies?

    Steerpike,

    I will pray for your soul. DNA science and evolution of the species have provided no link whatsoever between any species and the emergence of a human. Bible is the Word of God, not a superstition, and I pray that He forgives you for your blasphemy because you don’t know what you are doing. God never curses anyone. Material wealth and differing living standards among countries are not important fro a true believer. Firmness in faith is important, for it is said: “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. — Matthew 7:13

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 16, 2012 at 4:18 pm //

      “DNA science and evolution of the species have provided no link whatsoever between any species and the emergence of a human. ”

      Care to back that up with actual evidence? Please don’t mix religious dogma with science, specially if you don’t know much about the science. Thanks.

    • A growing number of scientists dissent from the idiotic Darwinian theory of evolution for its inability to satisfactorily explain the origin of man. Whenever you find the actual evidence for the “missing link” between an apelike ancestor and a man, I’ll provide you with tons of actual evidence of the opposite, especially as the closest friend of mine is a molecular biologist.

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 16, 2012 at 5:36 pm //

      If you say so paul. So basically evolution exists in this world for every species except us humans?

      You’re not by any chance a follower of that silly Discovery Institute are you? I don’t know what your friend has been telling you but the field of biology is all about evolution.

    • This is what the Bible says, Random. You either believe in God or you believe in Charles Darwin. Pick one.

      No, evolution doesn’t exist in this world for every species except humans. The Genesis account states that birds, too, were said to be created before other land animals.

    • Might I recommend a look into Theistic Evolution? Conforms to creationism and evolution, a middle ground essentially.

  28. Richard –

    What is more homophobic and intolerant: planting of a bomb at night, knowing no one would be hurt, as an (unacceptable) way of expressing irritation against gays or burying a teenage girl alive as punishment for talking to boys, as in Turkey? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/7161701/Teenage-girl-buried-alive-in-Turkey-for-talking-to-boys.html

  29. avatar Ara Khachatryan // May 16, 2012 at 11:35 am // Reply

    How did those two troublemakers become citizen’s of Armenia?

  30. Anything that has to do with religion and belief and the fairy tale bible should not be considered as vital! This was a crime against another human being(s) who have the same right as others. Hate crimes are not welcomed in a civilized society. People may disagree with each other but NOTHING gives a group the right to act violently against their peers.

    What century are we living in, again? I thought the dark ages were over… apparently there are selected groups of people in this world who have not evolved as human beings!

    Disgusted and ashamed…!

  31. Micha –

    What “bloodshed”?! Have you read the article? Have you seen anyone hurt? I bet if a similar attack was carried out against any other (regular) bar with real bloodshed, you wouldn’t shout head off against bigotry in the country, would you?

  32. avatar gaytzag palandjian // May 16, 2012 at 11:51 am // Reply

    I´m over 80 but readily accept that the homosexuals also ought to have their rights.
    Those aniquated approaches to national ARZHANABADVUTYUN,say national dignity are absurd words IN THIS CONNECTION.Let them go excercise that in parliament w/ref. to many an issue still lame and faulty…
    As to this type SEX or sexy or similar matters that related,fact of the matter is we Armenians are to learn to make do with same,as the present times REQUIRE that.Otherwise keeping it in the dark or ignoring that homosexualism exists,is tantamount to living IN THE DARK AGES.
    <Right now something very important comes to mind we the other KK´s that we have either neglected or paid little attn to them.No I don´t refer to magnate Kirk Kirkorian, but the Kim Kardashian and her sisters…
    We should make it ours to take a very cautious approach to them and try to steer the other sisters(other than KhLoe, is it? I cant even spell her name correctly sorry)…Because in order to be able to go National, so to speak we NEED TO SHOW TO THE PUBLIC HERE IN U.S. THAT SUCH A NATION ,RATHER NATION /STATE as Armenia exists.Saroyan times have faded,we do not have any importatn figures like George Deukmejian,paul Ignatius(this man a giant by all measures,imagine the secretary of the Navy of the most powerfull …and few knew his origin…he was in armenia , couple yrs ago..and also at a very important banquet in L.A. not long ago organized by Armenians, but thesse plus pothers such DO NOT MAKE HEADLINES…
    kim and sisters do AND I WAS VERY MUCH IMPRESSED WHEN KHLOE spoke about the armenian genocide!!!
    Think about it, we do need this sort of thing.Also I very mjuch like the magazine y e r e v a n ,published in L.A. brings out the important present day armenians on the scene…at least in the U.S.
    These are f a c t s !!!!!!

  33. Disgusted
    Does anything give you the right to hurt the feelings of billions of people who, as you admit, have the same right as others, by calling the Holy Bible a “fairy tale”? Do you think you have evolved as human being?

    • Well I don’t see him bombing a church in the middle of the night, like what happened in the article. Do you?

  34. gaytzag:

    “Those antiquated approaches to national ARZHANABADVUTYUN, say national dignity are absurd words.”

    I thought by advancing the Cause in AW and on your own website you were supposed to defend national dignity. But, as it appears, you exhibit the traits of one of those globalists, those sinister so-called “internationalist power elites” whose one objective is the suppression of the national will and eradication of national identify. Sorry, but I’ll stop reading your comments from now on.

  35. Gaytzag,

    I disagree. Homosexuals are given equal rights as citizens of Armenia—all accountable before the law. It is the explicit expression of their “morality” so to speak in public places and implantation of the gay-culture in the society that most of the people abhor.

  36. RVDV
    Do care to read the article first. There was no “bombing a church” in the middle of the night unless you’re smoking something very strong now. By “bombing a church” a physical and material damage can be done to a person or a group of people–gay or normal people notwithstanding. By blaspheming (“fairy tale bible”) a moral, spiritual, and psychological damage can be done to billions of people. I see the difference. Do you?

    • No they bombed a gay friendly bar. You got mad at someone calling the Bible a fairytale, okay I agree that this can be found disrespectful and though I am not a Christian and do not agree with some of your beliefs, I will always respect the things you believe in. But seeing as the person just called it a fairytale and didn’t take physical action- e.g BOMBING a gay friendly bar, it’s not the end of the world.

    • Wrong. I got mad at someone busting his butt for gays having the same rights as others, while at the same time trampling the rights of others to have faith in God and who pursue a Christ-like behavior. Religious vilification of the faithful shouldn’t be allowed, just as planting of a bomb anywhere should be punishable by law. However, for the fact, only gay-sympathizers have allowed themselves slanders such as “the Bible is a fairy tale” or “I spit on your foolish [religious] beliefs”. This suggests me over and over again whom the Devil employs as his associates.

  37. RVDV –

    “Then what should we call people who execute minors?” You tell me. You say you’re a Turk, and this is happening in your country: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/turkey/7161701/Teenage-girl-buried-alive-in-Turkey-for-talking-to-boys.html

    • Well at least in my country, for all of the negative and horrible things in our past, we no longer have a death penalty. Your civilized neighbor does these things on government orders- it’s legal. There’s the difference.

    • Burying a teenage girl alive is happening in our times, RVDV, it’s not a thing of your nation’s past. Abolition of the death penalty is not an indication of the civility of a nation; please don’t get on your high horse. The creative, innovative contribution a nation has made to the human civilization is. In this sense, the Persians are a distinct ancient civilization with which the Turks are not fit to hold a candle. I’m saying this not to belittle your nation, but as a statement of a historical fact.

      In the US the death penalty is not abolished; it’s legal. Does this make America an uncivilized society?

    • Executing minors is also not a thing of the past. I’m not doubting the contributions Persians have made in the past to humanity, but the past is not necessarily an indicator of the future.

      Does this make America an uncivilized society?

      No, but the US is not even in the same ballpark as some European nations, it does mean that.

    • “[…] but the past is not necessarily an indicator of the future” is a mentality characteristic to a relatively young nation. Link of times is a concept that only the ancient nations can understand and appreciate.

  38. Ani,
    Any bloodshed in Armenia is a pain for me. But in this case we speak of a minority which is already having hard time to survive…

    • Greens in Armenia have been brutally mistreated by the police over several years while pushing their “Save Teghut” civic initiative. Environmentalists are a civil minority in Armenia. Have you raised concern as affectionately as you do now for the gays?

  39. avatar Random Armenian // May 16, 2012 at 3:42 pm // Reply

    Doesn’t matter how you feel about that bar and those who frequent it, there is simply no justification for violence such as this. Those who view this as simply “expressing” an opinion or dissatisfaction, are not getting it. This is a violent act, even if no one was targeted (yet). You are tolerating violence and it can lead into violence against people.

    • Perfect summary. To quote Haile Selassie: “It is us today. It will be you tomorrow.” When does it stop. If we justify attacks on gays, who is to say tomorrow it will spread to other minorities? This isn’t an Armenian problem. Nearly every country in the world has this problem. And for those preaching about God, I don’t think God would condone attacking innocent people, regardless of what or who they are.

    • If innocent people were attacked, God wouldn’t condone attacking them for sure. As for “preaching about God”, well, God has determined homosexuality as an illicit lust forbidden by Him.
      “Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination” (Leviticus 18:22).
      “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them” (Leviticus 20:13).

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 16, 2012 at 5:18 pm //

      “… both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death;”

      So who is going to put them to death?

    • I don’t know. It’s God’s judgment.

  40. I can’t understand why do you need to mention “Iranian-Armenian brothers”, wouldn’t be good enough to just say “two brothers”?
    Aren’t we already very small scattered pieces that you want to cut us more apart?
    I think that creates animosity; something that Stalin has already done to us “Armenians” and we don’t need more.
    Regards, An Armenian

  41. avatar gaytzag palandjian // May 16, 2012 at 5:12 pm // Reply

    Paul,
    In my post I make special mention that naational dignity ought not to be mixed -mentioned and I re quote¨IN THIS CONNECTION¨. Obviously as to this particular case,which anyhow,as it appears -at least to me-the attendees to that Bar did not ESPECIALLY MAKE IT KNOWN what they were,or showed off as such.
    Quite the contrary impression can be perceived that they KEPT A LOW PROFILE.
    So why all the fuss?
    You will read in AW (on another thread) that some have strongly criticized those who offered bail to the so called ¨bombers¨….
    I have meanwhile tried to take advantage of this episode to bring forth the other -not quite similar-issue,that of the KK´s who if we are SMART ENOUGH can steer them towards our Tahd(actually one sister has done so and not many have spoken in praise of her..STUBBORN ARMENIANS!!!!
    My hope is that we become a bit more open to homosexuals -for they are as human as we are- as well as NOT LET a very important MEDIA tool slip through our fingers. Please get hold of the yerevan magazine and read through.They are doing a good job too.Enough being ultra conservative and with the mentality of the bird that buries its head in the sand….

    • Again, homosexuals enjoy the same rights as other citizens of Armenia. How else the society should be “more open” to them? Introduce a special amendment to the Constitution? Yes, many despise them and not without reason. But as long as everyone respects the law and homosexuals don’t expose their so-called “gay-culture” publically or in front of my children, they can enjoy the fruits of life as anyone else. What they’ll do when they’ll stand accountable before God is their problem and God’s judgment.

    • @Paul — what if you’re wrong and God actually made gay people? Don’t you think he will be upset with you when you stand accountable before him? I can hear you now, “But . . . but . . . the Bible said . . . .” And God would say, “you should have known that God is love.”

    • Paul: Can they get married? Is that not a right heterosexual people have? Is it not a right being denied to gay people?

      But in general I agree with you Paul. As long as its not blatantly thrown in my face, they can be free do to as they wish.

    • God couldn’t have actually made gay people, Brett. God made Adam and Eve.

    • Marriage is not a civil right in the literally sense of the word. Marriage is a covenant before God between a Man and a Woman.

    • Paul: “God couldn’t have actually made gay people. God made Adam and Eve.”

      That’s called begging the question/ circular reasoning in philosophy. God couldn’t have made gay people-> God made Adam and Eve-> and therefore God couldn’t have made gay people. And If someone asked for proof you’d say because God made Adam and Eve. See the circular aspect?

    • What proof do you want from me, RVDV? I believe in what the Bible says, you don’t. How can I possibly prove it to you if you appear to be spiritually and faithfully poorer person (meaning: weaker in the matters of faith)? If I in turn ask you for a proof that God has made gay people and not one Man and one Woman as in the Bible, can you provide it? Will it not be the circular aspect from your end?

  42. Hampig and Mgrdich should be arrested and punished by law. They should also provide financial compensation for the damage that their homemade bomb has caused.

    As to homosexuals, it is not that unnatural. Animal homosexual behavior is very well documented in many species. And, if you believe in evolution then you should expect homosexuals in homo Sapiens as well. In “true” homosexuals certain parts of brain may function differently. To me ”true” homosexuality is just a natural variation.

    We should accept them as we accept other people that are different from “ordinary people”. If public display of affection is allowed and accepted for heterosexual couples it should be allowed and accepted for homosexual couples as well. As to children, we simply should explain them that there are three types of couples-man and woman, man and man and woman and woman.

    The only problem I have is the adoption of children by homosexual couples.

    God does not accept homosexuals but he also tells us not to judge others so I will stick with the latter.

    • If in homosexuals certain parts of brain function differently, which suggets that homosexuality may indeed be a mental disorder, then they need to seek professional help. I don’t judge them, but I disagree that their “public display of affection”, as you call it, should be allowed and accepted. Next step is accepting their parades? Are they too a “public display of affection”? And there’s no such a thing in nature as “three types of couples” so I explain this absurdity to my children causing damage to their psyche.

      To not to accept the evolution generally and to actually prove that humans evolved from other spices are two different things. The DNA homology between spices is high, yet I’m told by a molecular biologist that it’s not absolute to scientifically prove evolution. Whether or not evolution contradicts the Bible (capital B), we don’t know, but Genesis is clear about the creation, not evolution, of the world.

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 17, 2012 at 11:00 am //

      “If in homosexuals certain parts of brain function differently, which suggets that homosexuality may indeed be a mental disorder,”

      You’re assuming that just because there is something slightly different in the brain , it means it’s a disorder. This is based on your biases against gays. There are many normal people whose brain functions slightly differently than others. Look at a stereotypical artist and scientist. Their brain does function slightly differently. And neither has a disorder. Although each might hold that attitude towards the other in a cynical or humorous manner :-).

      Genesis is not a scientific text. The science of evolution is based on hard evidence collected by scientists over several years. And by scientists across different ethnic and religious backgrounds. You do know there are biologists who accept evolution and the theory of natural selection *and* pray in church on Sundays right? It’s not either or.

      Besides Genesis is a specific creation story to one set of religions. There are so many creation stories all over the world. Yet evolution and theory of natural selection is consistent in scientific institutions across the globe. On top of this, evolution and the theory that best explains it so far, are always being tested as new evidence is found every year. This speaks volumes to me over religious text written centuries ago that we are told to accept without question.

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 17, 2012 at 11:13 am //

      paul, “yet I’m told by a molecular biologist that it’s not absolute to scientifically prove evolution.”

      I have a feeling you might not have completely understand what your friend is saying or you’re hearing what you want to hear. What is you friend’s take on evolution in general?

      The scientific evidence shows that we got from point A to point B. But we might not know all the stones we stepped on to get here. That doesn’t mean we might not find out and neither does it mean that we did not evolve from an ancestors shared between us and the other great apes.

      I don’t understand why people are against this or fear it. I find it absolutely amazing and thrilling. It connects us with the rest of the universe, which if true, God created. Please stop being so silly.

    • Whenever you hear about the discovery of a point Z that was so far never found in the evolution from great apes to a man, we’ll debate further. No one misunderstands or fears it because evolution still doesn’t fully explain creation. All I said was confirmation of the fact that a growing number of scientists dissent from the Darwinian theory of evolution for its inability to satisfactorily explain the origin of man. Besides, if you admit as true that God created the universe, then how can you deny that He might have also created everything that the universe consists of? Logical? Who’s being silly?

    • A stereotypical artist and a scientist, if they have no proven symptoms of mental disorder, normally do not resort to perverted behavioral abnormalities. Professional traits, habits, customs, attitudes, etc. that each of them may have do not mean that their brain functions differently.

      “Yet evolution and theory of natural selection is consistent in scientific institutions across the globe.” It may be consistent, but no plausible theory, except failed Darwinian one, exists that acceptably explains the origin of man. If you excuse me, I’d like to avoid lengthy debates.

      I’m not a fan, mildly speaking, of homosexuality. It doesn’t mean I judge gay people. It doesn’t mean I don’t accept them as part of the society. As long as they don’t explicitly advance their “gay-culture” publically and keep low profile, they of course can enjoy the fruits of life as any one of us.

    • Paul,

      Scientists know that biological evolution exists as there are a plenty of scientific evidence. We do not understand how big changes were made in evolution (for instance from a bird to mammals etc). It is the classical theory of evolution that is very debatable and unconvincing.

      Also, we have to accept that human brain is limited-we see things in a way that our brain’s capacity and our senses allow us to.

      Another thing is the time as different changes occurred in the course of million years, it is hard to recapitulate or observe them in the lifetime of human beings.

      I have seen, met and worked with many serious scientist (including molecular biologists) who think that evolution and God can co-exist.

      Whether we like that three different couples exist or not, it does not change the fact that they exist. When your child sees two men walking like a couple she/he may question you about that. Do not get me wrong I would rather see one type of couple-man and woman, but since they exist I respect their rights and accept the reality.

      Random Armenian,

      I agree with you that brain functions differently in extraordinarily talented people. In fact the brain has to function differently to make an extraordinary person both in a positive and in a negative sense. It is all natural variation. Majority of people fall under ordinary (average) category, fewer people deviate from it (in a good or bad way) and that’s how we have had extraordinarily talented people who will live forever with their music, paintings, writings and ideas in general.

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 18, 2012 at 1:37 am //

      paul, “All I said was confirmation of the fact that a growing number of scientists dissent from the Darwinian theory of evolution for its inability to satisfactorily explain the origin of man.”

      Who are these scientists you keep mentioning?

      And I wasn’t admitting that any deity created the universe. That comment was meant for you. We are made from the same material found throughout the universe and related to the other species on this planet. If God created the universe, then who knows, it may have some theological, religious, spiritual meaning for you, somehow.

      I’m sure we’ll discuss about point Z at some point given the continuing scientific research in anthropology and into how evolution works. In the mean time feel free to ignore all the multitude of other points we already know about simply by waving your hand.

    • Paul,

      First time I saw a gay in the movie and how unhappy his family was to find out he was gay, I asked my aunt what it meant to be a gay. My aunt told me that it was some kind of a mental disorder without explaining me how gays were different from the regular people. Needless to say, my next question was if they were sick why they did not get cured? My aunt told me that it is not possible to cure them because it was in their mind. As a 11 year old child I was not happy with her answer as it did not make any sense to me. I kept asking her how come people who had mental illnesses could get cured but those people could not?. She had no answer.

      The moral of this story is that you can explain your children about gays the way you want, but once they grow up, they will form their own opinion.

    • Thanks for you advice, Sella, but I’ll do my best to make sure the opinion my children will form is the same opinion that God has about the illicit lust.

    • Sella —

      I think it’s a part of parental obligation to explain to children the abnormality of two men or two women kissing like a couple, just like abnormalities of many other social ills or realities should be explained. The difference is HOW we explain that.

      “But since they exist I respect their rights and accept the reality.” Don’t they have the same rights as other members of the society?

      “Since they exist I […] accept the reality”. There’s nothing wrong with accepting, but there seems to be a problem with condoning such a reality. We accept there exist murderers, thieves, rapists, adulterers, etc., but do we condone them?

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 18, 2012 at 1:35 pm //

      paul, “As long as they don’t explicitly advance their “gay-culture” publically and keep low profile, they of course can enjoy the fruits of life as any one of us.”

      Ironically, this is the message Armenians and other minorities in Turkey receive about their own ethnic identities.

    • What other absurd comparison could you come up with, Random? Give way to your imagination…

    • It’s a good and fair comparison Paul. In another thread you will again start bashing the Turkish government over it’s denial of equal rights to its minorities while on here you use your religion to “justify” people being denied the right to get married. There’s a word for that you know. Starts with an H.

    • Ani,

      I accept that there are murderers, thieves, rapists, adulterers in this world but I do not accept their behavior because their actions caused a damage to someone else. They have committed crime and have to be punished by law. Here we are talking about abuser(criminal) -victim case.

      What damage a gay is causing to another gay or to other people?

      As I mentioned before, I am only against the child adoption by homosexual couple. Other than that whether they want to hold each others hand, kiss or have gay parades does not bother me. Maybe it is not eye pleasing but I see so many non eye-pleasing things that I can take that one as well.

      We have to leave them alone to live their live the way they want. We are not in a position to judge them. Their live- their choice. Let God judge them.

      In this day and age, where moral values are vanishing faster than my brain can grasp, I do not see how we can bash gays for their ”Immoral choices or orientation”.

    • See, Sella, the point of contention is that if a murderer, thieve, or rapist commits a crime, they’ll be convicted and thrown in jail. Because the State has determined that these types of crimes are punishable under man-made laws. Now, they also are punishable under divine laws (Ten Commandments), as is homosexuality. But homosexuality is elected not to be subject to punishment under man-made laws. This creates friction in a society and underscores the need to treat divine laws as being superior to mundane laws. You ask “what damage a gay is causing […] to other people?” Physically, probably none. But legalization of their marriage and adoption of children by gay couples certainly cause a moral, psychological, behavioral, and religious damage to the fundaments of human society, undermining the traditional family values.

    • This is how the evil works, Sella –

      First, their marriages are legalized without respecting your opinion and the opinion of the majority of the people. Then posters like Ananoon announce that “equality is the basis for democracy”, suggesting that child adoption by homosexual couples must also be legalized without respecting your opinion and the opinion of the majority (equality, right?). Ultimately, we’ll come to realize that democracy–the rule of the majority–is just a nice word and your opinion or vote doesn’t really matter. Tomorrow you’ll be called homophobic and undemocratic if you attempt to stand against adoption of children by homosexual couples. See how it works? If you wish to leave them alone, then why are you concerned with child adoption? Equality before laws—earthly or godly—must not develop into all-permissiveness. And it is us who must stand against it.

  43. Paul,

    “A growing number of scientists dissent from the idiotic Darwinian theory of evolution for its inability to satisfactorily explain the origin of man. Whenever you find the actual evidence for the “missing link” between an apelike ancestor and a man, I’ll provide you with tons of actual evidence of the opposite, especially as the closest friend of mine is a molecular biologist.”

    Darwinism is heavily criticized but it is hard not to accept the evolution. The DNA homology between different spices is strikingly high. We share over 90% genetic homology with Chimpanzees alone.

    I do not think evolution contradicts the bible. God created world in seven days. We should not take the day for a day by our definition. A day in bible can be a million or billion year for us. The bible describes the evolution in a simplified way.

    • Look how ardently some defend homosexual abnormality but none of these defenders, including you Sella, condemned a slander by a poster above: “I spit on your foolish [religious] beliefs and the pathetic excuse for ‘morality’ that you get from them.”
      If I had replied: “I spit on your perverted homosexual practices and the pathetic excuse for amorality that you get from them”, I’d be considered a homophobe, right? This is what excessive tolerance for a sinful reality does.

    • Ani,

      I did not post anything because I did not expect that whatever I say would reach to someone who has such stupid and morally disturbed ideas.

  44. A people that have spent their entire existence decrying persecution should be more understanding and sensitive to it no matter who the target is. We say this of Jews who support Turkey but we are no better. Shame on us.

  45. “Yet religion accompanies the entire history of the mankind, therefore hardly can it be qualified as “choice”.”

    Paul: And homosexuality is new? There was no homosexuality in ancient Greece? Plato didn’t document it in his writings? In China homosexuality hasn’t been documented since 600 BC?

    By your reasoning I can conclude since homosexuality also accompanies the entire history of mankind, it can hardly be qualified as a choice.

    • I hope you’re not attempting to juxtapose a matter of faith with a perverted behavior in some polytheistic epochs, are you? There was homosexuality in ancient Greece or elsewhere, but it was a social/behavioral choice, as it is now. Has homosexuality transformed itself into a strong widespread belief based on spiritual apprehension of vast masses of people?

    • Paul,

      There is a reason why a man is attracted to a man or woman to a woman. Have you ever asked yourself if you ever can be attracted to a man? For most of the people it will create a disgusting feeling just to think about it, let alone to be attracted to and have an intimate relationship with people from the same gender. I agree that there are people who want to appear as different and may become “gays” or “lesbians” but it is not the case for most of the homosexuals.

    • RVDV —

      There was no pedophilia in ancient Greece or ancient Rome alongside homosexuality? By your reasoning, since pedophilia also accompanied the history of mankind, it should now become as revered a spiritual belief and practice as faith?

    • No, I have never had perverted thoughts about being attracted to a man. It should have become clear from my posts. What is the reason why a specific man is attracted to a man or a specific woman to a woman?

    • Ani:

      Nice try. Paul’s original reasoning was that since religion has been around as long as mankind it can’t be considered a choice. I said homosexuality has been around as long as mankind so IT also cannot be considered a choice. Pedophilia as you say, has also been around as long as mankind. Pedophilia, unlike homosexuality is classified as a disorder- a mental sickness. There is a difference between human nature, and psychological disorders.

    • Prior to and throughout most of the 20th century homosexuality was viewed as a mental illness. There’s no strong consensus among health and mental health professionals nowadays that homosexuality is not a mental disorder. Many say it’s a variation of human sexual orientation, while there are others who maintain it’s a mental sickness.

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 18, 2012 at 1:31 pm //

      Ani,

      Pedophilia is a non-consensual act between and adult and a minor who is forced into it, who is not emotionally prepared and may end up with emotional scars for life. These are the reasons why pedophilia is unacceptable to society. The adult is a predator preying on the vulnerable and it causes harm. For gay couples it’s a consensual act between adults and concerns them only. The reaction to homosexuality is usually because of personal preference. You have to point to some actual harm being done. Your comparison does not make sense.

      Also just because something was considered an illness in the past does not mean anything. There are many things which were considered bad and unacceptable to society, and these attitudes are now rejected. I mean come on, look at the attitudes towards woman in society 200, 100, or even 30 years ago!

    • “There’s no strong consensus among health and mental health professionals nowadays that homosexuality is not a mental disorder.”

      There is a consensus among credible professionals.

      Ok look. We’re not going anywhere with this debate. Personally, I won’t be attending any gay pride events probably ever. I don’t care for them or about them. But, just because I don’t approve of their lifestyle and a majority don’t, that doesn’t mean they should be denied equal rights. Agreed? The biggest issue today is of course gay marriage. I understand religious objections. Fine. BUT, what about straight atheists? Paul described marriage as a covenant before God. I hear no objections about straight people who don’t believe in God getting married. They can go to a courthouse, so could gay people.

      Paul: ” What is the reason why a specific man is attracted to a man or a specific woman to a woman?”

      Genetics, hormones, other factors. Answers are out there, all you have to do is CHOOSE to look.

    • Random Armenian –

      I made no comparison between the two, read carefully.

      So, by your reasoning, if there is a consensual act between an adult and a minor then it is called homosexuality and is, as RVDV suggests, a “human nature”. But if an act between an adult and a minor is non-consensual, then it is called pedophilia, and is a “psychological disorder”? Nice…

    • RVDV –

      Those professionals who disagree are no less credible.

      I think the issue is not about attending any gay “pride” (pride for what?!) events, but for the majority of the people to actually see this ugliness happening on the streets. If you admit gay rights, you ought to also admit the rights of the many more people who despise such a behavior.

      Straight atheists—if they are one man and one woman—can go to courthouses and not be bound in a covenant in the churches. Their disbelief in God is something for God to judge. Same sex marriages are sinful in any respect and this is a major reason why I won’t be voting for Obama.

    • Hold on, RVDV,

      Genetics, hormones, other factors? But any human being has genetics, hormones, and other factors. Maybe in the case of homosexuals something is wrong with genetics, hormones, and other factors? Maybe all you have to do is also CHOOSE to look?

    • Just how a prejudice towards women’s’ right to vote can be compared with the lack of consensus among professionals today that homosexuality is not a mental illness? If you said that in the 17th century no penicillin was discovered but these days the discovery saves lives, it’d sound more like a comparison.

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 18, 2012 at 4:46 pm //

      Ani,

      Pedophilia involves an adult and a child which is incapable of giving consent. That’s the problem. Maybe the use of the word “minor” instead of “child” is the issue in our discussion. A child is not mature enough to understand sex and sexuality and is not in any position to consent. And that’s why pedophilia is unquestionably wrong. Homosexuality between adults is a consensual act, and that makes a critical difference.

      And yes you were comparing pedophilia to homosexuality.

    • Now you’re twisting words, Random Armenian –

      Previously you said that “pedophilia is a non-consensual act between and adult and a minor”. Now you effectively reversed it to “child”. Nice… Well, a minor is a person under a certain age which legally demarcates childhood from adulthood, and is typically 18. Hence my question again: if there is a consensual act between an adult and a minor, say, at the age 18, then it is called homosexuality and is a human nature? And if an act between an adult and a minor at the age 18 is non-consensual, then it is called pedophilia and is a psychological disorder?

      Please re-read my post about pedophilia with your eyes wide-open. Tell me again if you could find any remote comparison of pedophilia to homosexuality:

      “There was no pedophilia in ancient Greece or ancient Rome alongside homosexuality? By your reasoning, since pedophilia also accompanied the history of mankind, it should now become as revered a spiritual belief and practice as faith?”

    • Ok Paul: You find a way to change the genes and DNA of gay people to remove the “gay” gene and then I’ll agree.

    • Ani:

      “If you admit gay rights, you ought to also admit the rights of the many more people who despise such a behavior.”

      Your “opinions” infringe on the rights of others. Don’t tread on me? Nothing? There’s a difference between me saying “I’m against gay marriage” and me holding public office and making it against the law for them to get married.

    • Paul,

      I knew that you would not have perverted thoughts about being attracted to a man. I just wanted to say that for a non gay man is not easy to became, or convince himself, or choose to become attracted to a man.

      You ask what is the reason why a specific man is attracted to a man or a specific woman to a woman?

      As I mentioned before certain part(s) of their brain may function differently. Environment, education, stress, abusive childhood etc may play role. Again, I am talking about ”true” gays. By true gay I mean men who have no interest in women, and are attracted to and have relationship with men exclusively.
      It is a very complicated issue because there are gays that are exclusively gay, and there are gays whose sexual orientation is not constant and can change over time. This suggests to me that for some it is a choice and for some it is not.

    • Paul,

      I forgot to add that genetic predisposition may play role as well.

    • “Environment, education, stress, abusive childhood, etc. may play role.“

      There you go, Sella. Then these factors should be dealt with instead of lumping everything on “human nature” or a distinct “gay gene”, as RVDV and others contend.

      “This suggests to me that for some it is a choice and for some it is not.“

      Thank you for at least partially admitting that it is a choice.

      “I forgot to add that genetic predisposition may play role as well.”

      A professional in the field tells me this is an absurd statement. The genetic structure of any male or any female is exactly the same. There’s no gene that would trigger predisposition towards homosexuality.

    • Paul,

      Genetic predisposition does not assume that there should be a specific gene that could trigger homosexuality. Yes, we have the same genes but polymorphism makes us different from each other, whereas mutations cause different types of disorders.

      Here the question is not about absence or presence of the genes but its expression level at a certain stage of development. If a gene is expressed more or less, than it is necessary for normal function of the organism, or it is expressed in an untimely manner, it could result in a disease or various disorders. For example, certain hormones or proteins that are abundant or deficient in pregnant woman’s organism, can affect the development of the fetus brain .

      In this article researchers did experiments on mice and found out that level of serotonin can influence “gay” or “straight” behavior in mice.

      http://www.yourtango.com/201174113/can-serotonin-deficiency-make-you-gay

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 22, 2012 at 1:04 am //

      Ok I’m back.

      Ani, pedophilia by definition involves and adult and a child of around 13 years or younger. I used the word “minor” incorrectly. For the record *you* brought pedophilia into this discussion and should know what the definition of it is as well!

      Pedophilia is unacceptable given that the child is not sexually mature enough to consent. Homosexuality between two consenting adults is not considered unacceptable and probably no longer an issue by the majority of people in the US.

      Sex between a minor (under 18) and an adult is usually illegal whether it’s heterosexual or homosexual.

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 22, 2012 at 1:06 am //

      Here’s some timely news:

      http://www.npr.org/2012/05/21/153213796/spitzers-apology-changes-ex-gay-debate

      “Dr. Robert Spitzer’s research was widely cited by those who conduct conversion therapy as proof that it worked. Dr. Spitzer says his findings were misinterpreted, and apologized. The American Psychological Association has said there is no evidence that it’s possible to change sexual orientation.”

      And please someone explain how homosexuality is a threat to marriage. This seems to be a talking point used all the time with no satisfactory explanation.

    • So, now the age plank has been lowered to 13 and it’s no longer about the minor but a child? And it is now about legality not about some dysfunctional mental characteristics? Nice… By this adjusted reasoning, still, if there is a consensual act between an adult and a minor under 18, say a 17-year 10-month old young man, then it is illegal, is called homosexuality, and is considered a “human nature”? And if there is a non-consensual act between an adult and a child under 13, then it is also illegal, but is called pedophilia, and is a “psychological disorder”? Therefore, it is, basically, a certain age that differentiates human nature from psychological disorder. Wow! You’ve just given health and mental professionals some new theory to contemplate!

    • I understand from a professional in the field that the major function of polymorphism is to preserve variety of form in a population. Although, I’m told, there are many examples of human genetic polymorphisms, the most common one is sexual dimorphism, a difference between males and females of the same species. Sexual dimorphism makes males and females DIFFERENT from each other. Mutations may cause different types of disorders, but then they ought to be called by their proper name: disorders, and not be generalized as “human nature”.

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 22, 2012 at 10:18 pm //

      Ani, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedophilia. There are references at the bottom if you want to make sure what the p-word means.

      Since there is a basic disagreement on definitions and words, this discussion will not go anywhere.

      Also note that homosexuality is not defined as a disorder.

      But it appears that there is larger issues brewing in Armenia. Particularly a hate group making very public demonstrations against gays. That is a real and immediate issue. Police were involved in making sure things did not go horribly wrong.

    • Paul,

      Yes, sexual dimorphism is a result of polymorphism as well. Genetic mutations majority of times are silent or result in disorders, but rarely they can be favorable. For example, there is a very rare mutation in a certain gene that slows down aging significantly. I forgot the name of the gene. If you look the family who carries that mutation you would think that a 40 year old person is only 18. Another example is the low expression level of Insulin growth hormone, which has been correlated with longevity (some people who live over 100 years have it). Of course this is favorable from the individual’s point of view not from the nature’s or society’s point of view .

      Ani,

      As a member of society, I am concerned about child adoption by homosexual couples because I think that parents sexual orientation may affect child’s psychological well being, or the perception of family values, or the family concept altogether. Having said this, I am also concerned about children who grow up in families, where parents are polygamous and do not keep it away from their children. Let’s accept that a child who sees “friends” of his/her parents or, in the worst case scenario, a group of people heading his/her parents’ bedroom, will have distorted view about the social and family structure. Now, how do we approach this? Why do not I see heterosexual people raising this issue about another group of heterosexual people? Is there any law that will allow to take those children away from their parents? What about people who have high double-digit or triple-digit sexual partners by the age of 40-50. Is it also considered a mental disorder? No, in this case “we” say it is a private matter. What about moms who bring mentally retarded children into this world because of their alcoholism and excessive drug usage?
      You see that things are very complicated in today’s world where moral and family values are fading quickly.

      Another thing is-what if a dear person to me turns out to be gay ? Let’s say my dear uncle, a cousin or a future son? Am I going to stop loving them? Or do I have to bash them for their immoral “choices” and advise them get some psychological help when they are happy with themselves?

    • As far as child adoption is concerned, let us not forget that child adoption is not the only way that homosexual couple can have children-they can have children through artificial insemination as well. Let’s say even if the state regulates it they can have children in a country where it is not regulated or is regulated loosely.

  46. I think a very important point in this discussion is that almost 99% of gays don’t become gay by choice. Almost 99% of gays were already gays when they were children. This knowledge or information is very important, because once you realize that almost all gays don’t choose to be gay, then gays cease to be “threat” to the society.” This implies that when a child sees two gays kissing each other they will not become gay. Once parents realize this, then gays will not be considered threat to their kids and the chances that they will tolerate gays, increases. Therefore the source of homophobia is ignorance, which generates unjustified fear.
    Also, because in the case of 99% being a gay is not the result of a choice, then you can’t “cure” a gay person by asking the help of psychologist or a priest.

    • Ara –

      Can you refer us to an authoritative source that says that “almost 99% of gays don’t become gay by choice”? I think they make a twisted choice to become gay because the other choice readily available to them is to undergo a medical, psychological, mental, and spiritual treatment. They chose to go with the former. If one thinks of committing a suicide, she or he has a choice: either to commit it or seek help from professionals and church counselors. In this sense, I think homosexuality is a choice.

    • Ani,

      I will find out the information that you are requesting. Meanwhile, can you refer us to an authoritavie source that provides information about readily available medical, psychological, mental, and spiritual “treatment”, which could successfull change a gay person into a non-gay? I am convinced that there is no such thing, but I will wait for your information.

    • Ani,

      I am providing you a scientific source, an accepted Master’s thesis at UCLA, related to the experience of Armenian gays in Los Angeles. I couldn’t find a specific percentage, but the study clearly shows that when an adolescent finds out that he/she is gay, it causes, anxiety, fear, suffering, etc.. Some of them try hard to change, but can’t. Therefore most gays suffer when they find out that they are gays. It is a very sad situation. Gays are clearly victims in our homophobic society. On page 41 we could read about the experiences of some of them:

      “I tried, … to hide my sexuality & pretend that I was straight … I was very
      discrete in exploring my sexual identity & curiosity” (Respondent 30).
      “… realizing that I’m gay, was extremely hard in the beginning, I felt lonely,
      scared. Scared because I thought I was going to go to Hell, also thinking I’m the
      only Armenian gay person in the world. In the beginning I wanted desperately to
      change…”

      I hope after reading this study, you will have some compassion towards gays.

    • Ara —

      For some reason, my response to you wasn’t posted, so I’ll try to reproduce it. Basically it referred to an article in the Scientific American that I’ve read a couple of years ago about a large group of distinguished British therapists who said they could assist gay and bisexual patients attempting to convert to heterosexuality. I’ll try to find it on the web for you. A master’s thesis is not a credible academic or scientific source. You should know that. Besides, it fails to support your argument that “almost 99% of gays don’t become gay by choice”. Gays are not victims in our homophobic society; they are victims of a dysfunctional mental behavior that needs to be researched and offered a cure. I do have compassion towards gay people, but it expresses itself in the form of finding a cure to their problem, not in the form of legalizing their marriage and allowing child adoption by them.

  47. Whether or not one personally condones, condemns or merely tolerates homosexuality is irrelevant. All citizens deserve equal protection for themselves and their property under the law. There is not a different standard of law for those who choose to live ‘differently.’

    Besides, open homosexuality is the least of Armenia’s problems. Hunger, unemployment, pollution, apathy, despondency, corruption, bigotry, diminishing population, are all more important to focus on and potentially more damaging to ‘family life’ than open homosexuality. And those who wish to lead the nation in developing a strong democratic society, should stand up for every citizen’s rights. If they don’t, than they don’t deserve to lead. Equality under the law is the basis of democracy.

    This is a scapegoat issue. Don’t be distracted from the real issues.

    • “Equality under the law is the basis of democracy.”

      Absolutely. I wish some people would open their eyes and see that.

    • Now it’s about democracy, huh? “Equality under the law is the basis of democracy.” Nice words, but who questions this so they “open their eyes”? Violence is condemnable, but most of the issues that are being discussed here lay in a completely different dimension. Besides, democracy in our times has become the rule of a few over many under the disguise of free and multi-candidate elections, workings of secret societies, supremacy of multinational corporations and bankers, and manipulations of central banks. Open your eyes!

    • “Nice words, but who questions this so they “open their eyes”?”

      Anyone, and everyone against gay rights. Key word- equality. If you can get married, two gay people should be allowed to as well. Yeah, yeah Christian values, God, whatever. Last I checked America was run by a constitution and laws, not the Bible.

    • Thanks, excellent comment. I will send it to my friends.

    • Ananoon,

      Thanks, excellent comment. I will send it to my friends.

  48. Open homosexuality is a vice that’s affecting the globe, not just Armenia. Can we be concerned as citizens of the world?

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 18, 2012 at 4:47 pm //

      How is it affecting the globe and how is it a threat in Armenia?

    • In the form of same-sex marriages and adoption of children who will have two daddies or two mommies. I can imagine how fully-functional psychologically these children will become for any society when they grow up.

    • Well Serko, the world has done remarkably well considering a majority of people think like you. Don’t worry about the world, it’ll be fine.

    • I don’t think so, RVDV
      Growing proclivity towards acceptance of same-sex marriages is an indicator of the opposite. “Don’t worry about the world, it’ll be fine.” Only if we live godly lives, I tend to believe.

  49. avatar john the turk // May 19, 2012 at 3:39 am // Reply

    There is a clear connection between this place and the Armenian genocide if you can see

  50. Ananoon
    There’s an inaccuracy in your comment, which Ara seems to so much like, in that homosexuals should have equal protection for themselves and their property under the law. They do have such a protection in most countries of the world, certainly in all countries of the so-called civilized world. There’s also a flaw in your superficial statement that “equality under the law is the basis of democracy”. Assuming you’re a normal—non-gay—person, do you really think you’re being treated equally in a democratic society? When state legislatures enact same-sex marriage laws, does anyone care to have your vote, as it should be in a democracy? Does anyone care to have your vote in other matters, such as, for example, foreign aid, space exploration, military invasions or wars? And you know why they don’t care about our votes, right? Because if they treat all people equally, it’ll turn out that the majority of the people (basis for democracy) will vote against same-sex marriages or other matters of national concern.

    Myopic individuals like you or Ara fail to see that by introducing same-sex marriage legislations and by endorsing adoption of children by same-sex couples, sinister gloabalist powers essentially destroy the foundations of the traditional family. It’s one of their objectives worldwide along with the destruction of national borders, identities, and religions.

    I wish you take interest in the so-called conspiratorial version of history, which in many instances more accurately depicts the reality than the mainstream crap that we’re being fed.

    • Who are the “globalist” powers to whom you refer?

    • Most notoriously, the Illuminati. Nesta Webster, a British author, one of the major researchers on Illuminism, has summarized their goals as follows:

      Abolition of monarchy and all ordered governments
      Abolition of private property
      Abolition of inheritance
      Abolition of patriotism (nationalism)
      Abolition of the family (i.e. of [traditional] marriage and all morality, and the institution of communal education of children)
      Abolition of all religion

      In case Dr. Webster is denounced as a controversial author, a so-called “conspiracy theorist”, then there is a distinguished professor of history at Georgetown University, Caroll Quigley, who previously taught at Princeton and Harvard, the academic mentor of Bill Clinton whom the president has praised and acknowledged on an occasion. In his monumental work “Tragedy and Hope: A History of the World in Our Time”, Dr. Quigley acknowledges the existence of the globalist Conspiracy. He wrote: “[…] there does exist, and has existed for generation, an international Anglophile network which operates, to some extent, in the way the radical Right believes the Communists act. […] I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years and was permitted for two years, in the early 1960s, to examine its papers and secret records”.

    • “sinister gloabalist powers essentially destroy the foundations of the traditional family. ”

      Really? Of all the problems in the world, this is what you think they care about? You think the G8 summit was about gay marriage?

      “It’s one of their objectives worldwide along with the destruction of national borders, identities, and religions.”

      Not sure I see Russia and the US agreeing on the destruction of national borders.

      ” Because if they treat all people equally, it’ll turn out that the majority of the people (basis for democracy) will vote against same-sex marriages or other matters of national concern.”

      Well it turned out in 1915 that a majority of Turks didn’t want to see Armenians in Anatolia anymore. Just because a majority wants something doesn’t make it right. Because it just might turn out that a majority of people are nationalist racists (Turkey 1915), or idiots that think they have all it all figured out and that the whole gay marriage issue is a conspiracy theory- you.

      ” Assuming you’re a normal—non-gay—person”

      My post was also assuming you are a normal- non-mentally deficient- person. But I must say, I’m not so sure anymore. You sound AWFULLY lot like a denialist, do you know that? Denialists think the AG is a conspiracy theory as well- and that globalist powers want to tear apart Turkey. Food for thought.

    • RVDV,

      Not long ago you absolutely supported someone’s lame thesis that “equality under the law [for homosexuals] is the basis of democracy” (not that I oppose it, but I think they ARE equal under the law) and even wished that “some people would open their eyes and see that”.

      Now you’re telling us that “just because a majority wants something, doesn’t make it right.” But, dear sir, don’t we know from our junior high schools that majority rule is listed as a characteristic of democracy? There’s a word for such an attitude, you know? Starts with an ‘H’.

    • Really Paul? Then kindly explain civil rights. Racism was very much prevalent in society in the 1960s, I’d bet you a majority of Americans were racist. YET, the Civil Rights act gets passed- that would mean we don’t live in a democracy. In 2000, a MAJORITY of Americans voted for Al Gore, yet George Bush became president- does that mean we don’t live in a democracy? For an amendment to be passed on the constitution majority rule is not enough- you need a SUPERmajority 2/3. Does this mean we don’t live in a democracy? Does the filibuster rule in the Senate mean we do not live in a democracy? There’s a reason majority rule was coined “tyranny of the majority.” If you would like to live in a REAL democracy per your majority rule standards Paul, I would strongly suggest moving to a country like Turkey- dont worry, as long as you “don’t expose your culture and religion publicly or in front of people’s children, I’m sure the Turkish people will let you enjoy the fruits of life.”

      “Democracy is defined in Webster’s Encyclopedic Dictionary as:

      Government by the people; a form of government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them either directly or through their elected agents;… a state of society characterized by nominal equality of rights and privileges.”

      Read the last sentence. It says “a state of society characterized by nominal equality of rights and privileges”- NOT for the majority, for all.

    • avatar Random Armenian // May 22, 2012 at 1:07 am //

      serko,

      You should not believe everything you read so easily. Words to live by. Helps with sanity.

    • I feel embarrassed to repeat the same thing over and over again. Aren’t you embarrassed to hear it over and over again? Nominal equality of rights and privileges DOES exist for gay people, at least in the Western societies. Democracy is, indeed, “a state of society characterized by nominal equality of rights and privileges.” Let’s pretend for a second—just to make you happy—that the majority rule is not an important feature of a democracy. How does “nominal equality of rights and privileges” work in the case of legalization of gay marriages? Have you been offered to cast your vote in a referendum or through your representative based on “nominal equality of rights and privileges” that supposedly must involve you or me, as well?

    • Paul: “Have you been offered to cast your vote in a referendum or through your representative based on “nominal equality of rights and privileges” that supposedly must involve you or me, as well?”

      No, because by “expressing opinions” against gay marriage, you tread upon the rights of others. At that point it no longer qualifies as an opinion- it is “tyranny of the majority”, disregarding minority rights and privileges. This is not a country run by the Bible, so marriage and gay marriage does fall under the umbrella of rights and privileges- God and Christians morals shouldn’t play any role.

      Furthermore, why should I need to vote on it? Did they let the public vote to end segregation?

      “The Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts, on November 19, 2003, ruled that the state “failed to identify any constitutionally adequate reason” to deny gay persons the right to marry and that the state’s prohibition on same-sex marriage violated the state’s constitution. The Court, in its fifty-page 4 to 3 ruling, gave the state legislature 180 days to “take such action as it may deem appropriate in light of this opinion.” Because the case, Goodridge v Department of Public Health, was decided on state constitutional grounds, there is no federal issue for appeal to the U. S. Supreme Court.”

      You have the right to believe in anything you want. You think homosexuality is a choice and mental disorder, go ahead I don’t care- the facts will remain the facts and the lies and myths will remains the lies and myths, one opinion won’t make or break that. In a truly civilized society, your opinion (you being the majority) shouldn’t have to be one that people have to conform to if it denies their rights and privileges. I’ll get tired of listening to you repeat your lies when you become tired of refusing to see reason.

    • “By ‘expressing opinions’ against gay marriage you tread upon the rights of others.” Excuse me?! First of all, gay marriage is not a civil or a constitutional right or a privilege so it could be treaded upon. Secondly, if you’re so all-out righteous, it should have occurred to you that legalization of their marriage in turn treads upon the rights and privileges of many more others. You use majority as a matter of convenience for your lame arguments. I’m pretty sure that on other occasions you will ostensibly defend the majority rule concept to accommodate it to your other arguments.

      How can personal convictions be “lies”? Absurd…

    • “This is not a country run by the Bible” –Yes, it is run by the US Constitution and Federal Laws, one of which, the Defense of Marriage Act of 1996, explicitly defined marriage as a Union of One Man and One Woman (Title 1 of the US Code § 7)

    • ” it should have occurred to you that legalization of their marriage in turn treads upon the rights and privileges of many more others.”

      Do explain how two gay guys in Massachusetts getting married effects unrelated people in other parts of the country. I’d love to hear what fascinating story about God and the Bible you have to tell. I’m all ears.

    • Paul: “Have you been offered to cast your vote in a referendum or through your representative based on “nominal equality of rights and privileges” that supposedly must involve you or me, as well?”

      Furthermore, why should I need to vote on it? Did they let the public vote to end segregation?

      Answer my question.

    • “Do explain how two gay guys in Massachusetts getting married effects unrelated people in other parts of the country.”

      God has determined homosexuality as an abomination (see: the Torah, the Bible, the Koran). For “fascinating stories” look up sci fi.

      Two gay guys marrying in Massachusetts are members of the society whose historical, traditional, religious, moral, and legal setting under the federal law has been the union between one man and one woman. By allowing two gay guys to marry, this natural setting of a traditional human family is being endangered. Had two gay guys in Massachusetts lived their preferred lives without a marital bondage and without creating a “new type” of family, it wouldn’t effect unrelated people in other parts of the country.

    • “[…]why should I need to vote on same-sex marriage? Did they let the public vote to end segregation?”

      A public vote to end segregation wasn’t necessary because the Fifteenth Amendment, ratified in 1870, already prohibited the US government from denying a citizen the right to vote based on that citizen’s “race, color, or previous condition of servitude”. In other words, ending segregation was essentially righting the wrong, therefore no public vote was needed. It took governors, senators, “Brown vs the Board of Education” case, etc. to pass a bill to desegregate schools. Again, as opposed to the legalization of gay marriages, a constitutional amendment prohibiting segregation has already existed.

    • Plessy v. Ferguson, Paul, don’t tell me about the 15th amendment. Do SOME research is you have no prior knowledge. Brown v. Board didn’t desegregate schools, it desegregated society. Having lived in the deep south my whole life I can still see remnants.

      “God has determined homosexuality as an abomination (see: the Torah, the Bible, the Koran)”

      Can we agree that bits and pieces of these texts are outdated? Like cutting off the hand of a thief, stoning and adulterer?

    • Don’t cling to words. You asked why there was no need for public vote on segregation, I answered: because of an existing constitutional amendment. The society—through senators, governors, and various legal cases—has righted a wrong. Hopefully, the wrong that it’s unlawfully creating with homosexuality on federal level will also be righted based on the Defense of Marriage Act of 1996.

      God’s Word cannot be outdated. Of course, in some cases the texts shouldn’t be taken literally (cutting off the hand, stoning, etc.). Feel free to replace them with lethal injection, as is the practice in modern democratic society.

    • Paul: “Don’t cling to words.”

      So first you say the Bible is the word of God and can’t be outdated, and now you tell me to not cling to words. There are no pictures in the Bible, the only thing I CAN cling to is words.

      “You asked why there was no need for public vote on segregation, I answered: because of an existing constitutional amendment.”

      Did I not just prove the 15th amendment was USELESS until the 1950s? Plessy v Ferguson, the Jim Crow laws, Poll taxes, and on and on and on. The 15th amendment is NOT an answer to my question. Just because a bunch of words granting rights were written on paper doesn’t mean anything unless you enforce it.

    • God’s Word is not a guiding light for you. Majority rule is not a major characteristic of a democracy for you. Constitution, described by you as a bunch of words granting rights, is not a basis for you. Have you any sanctity at all? RVDV, are you a nihilist?

    • Paul: nihilism is an abstract, extreme field of thought, I don’t buy into nothing has meaning.

      “God’s Word is not a guiding light for you. Majority rule is not a major characteristic of a democracy for you. Constitution, described by you as a bunch of words granting rights, is not a basis for you.”

      Part one, No, no it is not a guiding light. Part two, I believe there are times when majority rule harms a democracy and needs to be limited. Part 3, if the government does not enforce its laws and constitution- like the 15th amendment and continues to allow people to be oppressed, then yes, the Constitution is a bunch of meaningless words on paper until and unless you enforce it.

  51. RVDV
    In order for me to debate with you on the subject I’d expect you to have some alternative knowledge. Otherwise, it’s a waste of time, sorry. Have I insulted you as being ‘mentally deficient’ so you reciprocate? By ‘normal’ I meant a traditional heterosexual person. Yes, to me, homosexuality is an abnormality. For you it seems to be Manna from Heaven. Why do you react so angrily to others’ opinions? G8 is not what I meant by ‘globalist’. The term ‘globalist’ also implies supranational, supragovernmental internationalist elites. “Well it turned out in 1915 that a majority of Turks didn’t want to see Armenians in Anatolia anymore” is the most absurd statement that I got from you so far. Not even worth replying because in 1915 no one ever asked Turks’ opinion because in 1915 Turkey’s form of government was far from being democratic. The whole gay marriage issue may not be a whole conspiracy theory, don’t twist my words. But, as I’ve demonstrated, abolition of the family, i.e. of [traditional] marriage, is one of the goals of the Conspiracy. Gay marriages add fuel to the fire. All those who do extensive research and write on the subject cannot be idiots, can they?

    • All those who do extensive research and write on the subject cannot be idiots, can they?

      There was extensive research “proving” black people where a human sub-species, I think we can agree that’s not the case.

      ” But, as I’ve demonstrated, abolition of the family, i.e. of [traditional] marriage, is one of the goals of the Conspiracy”

      A conspiracy that may or may not exist?

      “Yes, to me, homosexuality is an abnormality. For you it seems to be Manna from Heaven. ”

      A Heaven that may or may not exist. Answer me this, if God created humans, why did he create gays which evidently he despises? Mental disorders, genetic mutations? He is God, can’t he control those also?

      The problem here is, you debate based on faith, beliefs, and conspiracy theories that I are credible in some areas- no smoke without a fire. I don’t, I believe in science, evolution, and natural variances among humans.

      “Why do you react so angrily to others’ opinions?”

      I’m against gay marriage for moral and religious reasons- Opinion. I personally don’t agree, but it’s an opinion, I respect that view. “I think homosexuality is a mental disorder, and goes against God so I will do all I can to deny same sex marriage (even though this country is not run by the Bible).” <– This is stupid. I react angrily to stupidity, I'm sorry if your feelings get hurt. No point in being kind, reasonable, and politically correct with those who refuse to see the cold hard facts. We can keep this up as long as you want to, this is one of the few things I absolutely will not budge an inch on, because this isn't about gay marriage and gay rights, it's about the advancement and civility of a society that allows that which they may not agree with.

  52. “Assuming you’re a normal—non-gay—person….”

    Serko, I am a ‘non-gay’ person, but I’m not sure I’m ‘normal.’

    You are making assumptions about me in your comment above. I am neither myopic or pushing a gay agenda. I intentionally left my personal feelings about homosexuality out of this discussion because I view it as a private matter. I prefer it that way. My main point is that Armenia has many very important issues to deal with as it tries to establish itself as a self-sustaining democratic nation. If I am myopic about anything, it is for Armenia’s survival. With all the enemies to the east and west of our small nation, I consider it a terrible waste of our independence to turn on each other.

    I don’t believe in the notion of a homosexual threat to the fabric of Armenian society. I am sure Armenian homosexuals have been among the ‘normal’ Armenians from the start. It didn’t prevent us from developing a unique language, culture, or religion, nor prevent us from creating strong, committed families or build architectural marvels that still stand after a thousand years. Let’s be grateful that we have a land where all Armenians can be free and our culture can prosper. Let’s save this nation that we both love from real enemies and threats: corruption, unemployment, poverty, hunger, apathy, expatriation, pan-Turkism, etc…

    • Thanks for clarifying your point on homosexuality and leaving equal rights/democracy/’freedom for all’ out this time. My major point of disagreement is that homosexuality no longer can be viewed as a private matter because their marriages are being legalized and the adoption of children allowed. Because these actions affect traditional societal—and godly—norms, homosexuality has become a public matter.

    • I mentioned a homosexual threat to the traditional fabric of any human society, not specifically the Armenian one. But if you think the legalization of gay marriages in the US and the adoption of the so-called “homophobic laws” by the EU goes unnoticed by the gays in Armenia, you’re gravely mistaken.

      Out of curiosity: who are the Armenian homosexuals who have been among the normal Armenians from the start?

      Also, those normal Armenians who developed a unique language, culture, religion, created strong, committed families and built architectural marvels, how do you think they’d look at their present-day homosexual descendants?

  53. I believe the conclusions I arrive at as a result of extensive readings into both Accidental (mainstream) and Conspiratorial views of history. When one tries to apply comparative analysis skills to whatever he or she reads, one gets the most plausible version of human history. But if one doesn’t care because it’s easier to live as a single-cell creature or if one is convinced that simplicity of mind helps with sanity, then he or she of course is free to believe that the Boston Tea Party act was carried out by the Indians or that the Russian Revolution was started by starving Russian workers who were being oppressed by the tyrannical Czar or that the French Revolution was the spontaneous activity of an oppressed population rising up against the tyrannical King.

  54. avatar Random Armenian // May 25, 2012 at 10:38 pm // Reply

    “Like cutting off the hand of a thief, stoning and adulterer?”

    Stoning people could be ruled cruel and unusual punishment by the supreme court. Whereas the electric chair is not.

    Unless you meant punishing adulterers by getting them high, which makes no sense whatsoever.

    • Haha no, A+ comment of the day. What I said was, when you take ancient texts at face value you will run into outdated, uncivilized things like stoning AN adulterer. my mistake. Maybe condemning homosexuals is one of those outdated archaic things was my point.

  55. Excuse me but where the tens of thousands walking and yelling “we are ALL gay”?

    • Just can’t keep the hatred for Armenia and Armenians bottled up for long, can you pal ?
      Anything not even remotely connected is an opportunity to vent Anti-Armenian bile for a Denialist Turk like you.

      Hrant Dink was murdered.
      A lowlife patsy was sacrificed and jailed, but the real murder conspirators and organizers at the top are still at large, because they are protected by the Turkish State.
      The Turk Police official who proudly posed with the murderer for photographs was recently promoted.

      In Yerevan, no person was injured, much less killed, in the attack on the bar (very fortunately).
      The suspects who firebombed the bar were quickly caught.
      No Armenian police officers posed proudly for photographs with the suspects.
      According to the victim of the property crime, Ms. Oganezova, the suspects face very serious charges: they are not walking away from this.
      According to the victim of the property crime, Ms. Oganezova, the Police Inspector assigned to the case is himself outraged what was done to her, is very supportive of her, and is working the case diligently.

      Now that we have dispensed with Armenia, let’s discuss your favourite country.

      Were there any number of marches in Turkey, 16 to be exact, last year yelling “we are ALL gay” ?
      According to Amnesty International UK: {“ Last year (2010), LGBT organisations in Turkey reported 16 murders of people reportedly due to their sexuality or gender identity: nine gay men and seven transgender women”}

      Were you guys marching by the thousands, yelling “we are ALL Alevis”, when the Turkish court declared a couple of months ago that the statute of limitation had expired on the arson attack in Sivas in 1993, when 37 innocent people were murdered ? Thus the Turkish murderers got away with murder ? Again, as is the norm in Turkey ?

      Did you guys march, yelling “we are ALL Catholic”, when 5 Catholic priests were murdered in Turkey ?

      When you Denialist Turks clean up you own house and acknowledge the murder of 2 million Christian Armenians, plus 1-2 million Christian Greeks and Christian Assyrians, you can come here and lecture us Armenians about marches and such.

    • “Were you guys marching by the thousands, yelling “we are ALL Alevis”, when the Turkish court declared a couple of months ago that the statute of limitation had expired on the arson attack in Sivas in 1993, when 37 innocent people were murdered ? Thus the Turkish murderers got away with murder ? Again, as is the norm in Turkey ?”

      Good questions Avery. I too am curious for an answer to this one in particular. Fortunately our community stages a massive protest every July 2nd so some don’t forget. “We won’t forget, we won’t let you forget either”- Great slogan they have.

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