1,407 Comments

1. Thank you for your article. What about art effects and rare manuscripts looted by French and British Governments?
    

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2. It is well known that Ottoman’s abolished Christian Churches …Example is Famous Aya-Sofia 
   But they did not build even a mosque in the islamic states
   and they use to kill muslims in Arabia (Saudi Arabia…Yemen, Middle East, Egypt… )
   Al-Wahabia initiated because of them…
   They harmed every one from Yemen till Anatolia… Europe…were ever they occupied…
   So don’t mention only Christian homes but they are against Islam states as well…
   see what they are doing for Muslim Sunni Kurds… 
   We need an expert to write about the relation of the “Wahabia” and the Ottomans … 
    

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3. very nice, seems that there were more armenians in ottoman lands than turkish..strange why was it than called ottoman empire and not armenian increased numbers of churches and schools empire

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4. @Anadolu. The Ottoman Empire stretched over many lands in which Turks were a minority. Like Palestine, North Africa, the Balkans….
    
   Also, you’re claiming that the Armenians did not form a majority population anywhere in Anatolia. Fine. Let’s say they were a minority. How then could this minority, which was legally prohibited from bearing arms let’s remember, pose an existential threat to the Ottoman Empire which required extinction/relocation???
    
   Turkish denialists like to have it both ways: on the one hand, they say that Armenians were a small minority and thus have no territorial claims; yet at the same time, they claim that this small minority posed a grave threat to the empire which required genocide.
    
   Fantastic and meticulous article by Raffi Bedrosyan.

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5. And, a Turkey still insults the intelligence of so many peoples via their genocides, via so-called alliances, via all sorts of gyrations to distract and destroy great peoples/civilizations that exceed the ancient and advanced societies beyond that which Turks’ can never/ever offer and be capable to share with other nations, whether neighbors, whether on again/off again ANY alliances… ala Turkish style.

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6. I would love to have enhanced reproductions of these maps to put up in my living room.  Perhaps ALMA could provide assistance since they have the where with all for map reproductions. These maps should be displayed in every Armenian Church.   

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7. Bravo!!!

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8. Thank you Raffi for highlighting this issue of Armenian Church and School properties in Ottoman Turkey prior to the 1915 – 1922 Armenian deportations and genocide.
   In addition to thousands of Armenian  churches and schools there were  also as many, centuries old, Armenian cemeteries  at every Armenian town and village and community.  Most of these cemeteries had their own small chapels and were surrounded by high stone-built walls.
   My father who was from Nigde  (born in 1890)  mentions in his written memoires  about the 
   Armenian Church, the Prelacy and the near-by Boys School  and also about the Armenian cemetery which had a two meters high stone wall built all around it and the benefactor’s name “Ghazarosian” displayed above the  main gate.  

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9. Dear Mr. Bedrosyan, Thank you for your article and your extensive research.  You did say that both Kars and Ardahan are excluded from the list.  Please be aware that Smyrna is also excluded from the list.  Since there were more than a 130,000 Armenians living in and around Smyrna region there must have been at least a few Armenian Churches and schools; but there was one very huge, majestic and a renovated Armenian Church and a school in the heart of Smyrna in 1922 before Ataturk’s entering and having the Armenian population annihilated. The Armenians in Smyrna have been present in Smyrna since the 10th century.  After the Lusinyan kingdom collapse in Cilicya a great many Armenians from Cilicya have also migrated to Smyrna as well as after Shah Abbas’ conquering the Armenian Highlands, to save themselves more than 25,000 Armenian families have migrated to Smyrna and to the Archipelagos islands.  In 1650 the SAINT STEPPANNOS CHURCH was built in the heart of Smyrna (Izmir) located in the southskirts of Pakos mountain.  This was an enormous monumental and a majestic Church when in 1845 it was burnt down, and it was then rebuilt by the great engineer Melkon Yeremian who was brought in from Gostantnoubolis to do the job.  St. Steppannos Church had an enormous majestic dome, with double towers.  The entrance had marble floors and inside the Church there was 24 marble pillars/columns with a height of 2,20 meters and 1,12 meters in width.  The Church had seven doors with a raised platform ascending by 40 steps.  The inner part of the Church was wondrous with 10 huge marble pillars; each with 5,50 meters height and 1,90 meters width.  From the entrance of St. Steppannos Church till the altar was 24 meters with a nine meter dome.  The grand senior altar was dedicated to Saint Steppannos, the right part of the altar was dedicated to Saint Hovhannou Garabed and the left part of the altar it was dedicated to Saint Mary, mother of God “Sourp Asdvadsadsin”.  On the two sides of this majestic Church there were additional extended small Churches.  On the right and the left side of the Church; the right “madour” was dedicated to Saint Bartholomew and the left “madour” was dedicated to Saint “Kelxatirin”.   Next to this enormous and beautiful Church of course there was the “Arachnortaran” where the prelate presided with it’s various rooms for the clerics as well as a grand room to receiving guests and the prelate’s bedroom.  This was built in 1858.

   Then the St. MESROBIAN SCHOOL for boys.  Smyrna had no schools until the beginning of the 18th century.  The  ST. HRIPSIME GIRLS SCHOOL  was built 25 years after the boys’ Mesrobian School was built.  But along with Saint Steppanos Church, St. Hripsime Girls School was burnt to ashes in 1845 and this school was also rebuilt in 1880.

   Along with the building of the Church and the schools, the national hospital was also built for the community and the vacinities of the Smyrna populace in 1879.

   All of these are taken from my grandfather Minas’ memoirs, who’s uncle was the Archpriest Der Haroutyoun, who was taken away by the gendarmes and killed and martyred in 1922 right after the burning of Smyrna.  Ironically he was the Archpriest and the right hand “deghabah” of the Archbishop Ghevont Tourian who was the Archbishop of the Armenians in Smyrna for 22 years.  Yet in 1922 Archbishop Ghevont Tourian escaped Smyrna all by himself wearing Latin priest’s clothes and migrated to the United States.  He did not even make an attempt to save the skin of his right hand Arpriest Der Haroutyoun nor the 130,000 Smyrna’s Armenian population.             

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10. My above post that was taken from my grandfather’s Memoirs written in Armenian, I have just translated into English.

    Seervart

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11. i am glad of tigran’s reply! my uncle went to tarsus where my family is from, from time immemeorial. he went a decade or two back, and tried to photograph my grandfather’s house. he was terrified! the turks started gathering around him, they were menacing him is what i’m trying to say.it is unsafe for us to go back from where we came!
    we must have justice–not only for our lost family members who died in the genocide, but to humanize our turkish murderers.

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12. well said Tigran. 

    Paging all Turks and their Turkophile  friends: let’s see you find a way out of the logical dead end Tigran has presented to you Denialists.

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13. Dear Seervart,
    Smyrna is shown as Izmir, the Turkish name of the city. Thanks for your comments.

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14. Very impressive and touchy story.
    God bless all of you all the times. Amen.
     

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15. Dear Raffi, You are right, I missed to see Izmir on the list while I was looking for Smyrna alone.  You are most welcomed my compatriot; but this overlook of Izmir gave me an incentive today to traslate Minas’ (my grandfather’s) memoirs into English, which gave the historical events of our fine peoples’ migration to Smirna and the existence of a majestic Armenian Saint Steppannos Church of Izmir, so that our generations would be proud today of it’s existence, thanks to the dedication and the ingenuity of our forefathers who have built it.
     
    Dear Bedros, Thanks for the well wishing, and may God bless you and all my compatriots alike!

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16. Excellent Article.. This should be in the chapters of all school history books… every one of them… i would also like to have those old maps if possible…

    Seervart jan– excellent post.. Got goosebumps when I read it.. wow. .your grandfathe is considers a hero in my book.. to witness and also write his memoir so future generation to study and be educated.. he is indeed a hero in my book…

    Tigran jan– WELL SAID.. you hit the nail on its head.. Turkish govt and denialists do EXACTLY that… blame Armenians for taking up arms and rebel against Ottoman Empire not recalling that Armenians were minority.. BUT when it comes to churches, culture, arts, schools, and everything else that was ours, they try to SHOVE the minority number in everyone’s throat.. such bastards.. but we all know how they operate so it does not come surprise to me when this so called Anadolu posted his comment…      

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17. Seervart: Note that Smyrna = Izmir = 23 churches, 27 schools

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18. Dear Gayane, Thank you.  Btw; my grandfather Minas was an educated man of his time.  He was a graduate from the Turkish mililtary school, then after two years he was obligated to serve in the Turkish army; but after the Armenian Genocide happened, he formed his troops and he lead it against the Turks as a “gamavor” Fedayi on the Cilicyan mountains for a year and a half.  Before he wrote his memoirs in a book of the fall of Izmir, he was a distinguished leader, a speaker and an orator amongst Armenians in the Diaspora.

    Halo, Yes I saw it under Izmir the 23 Armenian churches and the 27 Armenian schools, thank y

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19. Yes, it’s true…Armenians, in fact, were not a true ‘minority’, except in a technical sense. Of the 10 million people in Anatolia in 1914, roughly 2 million or somewhat more were idenified as Armenian, and approximately the same number were Turks, Greeks and Kurds. Others, like Assyrians or Jews were true minorities. Moreover, Armenians were the most numerous indigenous people in eastern Anatolia. As such, their history stretches back at least 4000+ years. The fact that they had a massive number of schools, hospitals and churches for hundreds of years should be no surprise to anyone. After such a long settled history, this is the result. It’s called civilization.  Without Armenian civilization, Turks would have nothing.    

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20. The map is very painful to every educated culture person not all for Armenians…To know how we lost our educated people and culture…To start from scratch…
    This should be aveiable to ‘Human Rights’ group…congrats for Raffi and his group.
    As far as i can remember from my grandmother…That there was a collage in Diyarbakir
    where my grandfather Mihran Dabbaghian was graduated as well his brothers, cousins (Kazanjian, Simsarian…).Do you regard collages according to this article as schools?

    SP 

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21. Dear Tigran,

    right, as you have correctly mentioned in some areas Turks were not the majority. But Turks did not migrate to those places either, they mostly ruled it with garrison troops and with local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans. But as the Ottoman Empire stretched over vast lands it had also its own mainland with mainly Turkish citizens. And this is today’s Turkey.

    If you have an internal disorder, with rebellious organizations like the dashnak, hushnak or other underground organizations, who by the way attacked and killed peaceful Armenians as well because they stayed firm and allied themselves with the State (Ottoman empire). If you have such organization secretly and sneaky sabotaging, Ottoman army lines, while the state is attacked from everywhere (West, south front, allies – east front Russia,).This is a very critical point, this something which no government on earth would tolerate. Than one should not wonder why for the sake of internal state order, and for the sake of winning the war against the Allies and Russia, the Armenian population had to be relocated. Is it not strange while for centuries the Armenians were known to be loyal to the state, but due to foreign intervention und and underground organizations, this peaceful neighborhood came to an end. It maybe because of wrong politics. Please note war is a disaster for human mankind, while many Armenians lost their lifes, so too did other Ottoman citiziens lose their lifes and that was no less.

    And if you show here churches and school’s, one should also keep in mind, that most of these buildings were created during the peaceful coexistence between the various ethnic groups, while protected by the state.

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22. Slyva – in those days in Turkey, a ‘college’ was the term used for a high school, not a university. My grandfather attended Euphrates College, and learned English there. As such, he had a great education and was consdered to be a very well educated guy, even though he never attended university.

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    • Totally agree…

23. Karekin-efendi:    Why do you refer to those days when a college was the term used for a high school? Those days are long gone. Step into the real world where the rubber meets the road. For the first time in many centuries, we have an azad Hayastan that’s survived more than just a few years, and you wallow in the past when your grandfather attended Euphrates College and learned English there. You are drowning in your own remembrances. Be fearful for the survival of the nation because of practical considerations on the ground, such as hostile neighbors. No need to drown in remembrances that the same hostile neighbors caused annihilation of your nation. Learn nothing from the past. Never look back. Keep your eye on the real prize, which lies in the future, which in your imaginary world exists without the past.

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24. Though the term “college” was technically a high school by today’s standards it is equivalent to today’s colleges.  Having studied the curriculum of those days of high schools in the US, their studies were more rigid than US colleges of today.

    So the broad use of the word college would be on the same level of a high school in that period of time.  However, the high school of that period had a more rigorous approach to studies than the colleges of today.

    Therefore,  the reference to Euphrates College as a college would be a correct term.

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25. Anadolu.. you sound THE EXACT SAME denialist and closed minded with misfit and misinformation like your comrads that we know very well..

    Your words ring loud and familiar.. it was a war, it was Armenian groups who rebelled, Armenian underground organized groups killed Armenians, both Turks and Armenians  lost lives..war is a disaster….. ARE YOU FREAKING SERIOUS???? are you listening to yourself? another one to the long list of arrogant,  lost denialist Turk..

    Avery, Karo, Armen, Boyajian, Seervart, Katia and my other well versed in history comrads, please please please educate this poor and lost soul about the TRUE history behind what happened in the Ottoman Empire time.. because he is giving me an ulcer when he speaks with such nonsense….     

    Gayane

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26. Anadolu,

    You have avoided my question, and contradicted yourself once again. Your logic: hunchaks and Dashnaks were rebelling and killing even peaceful Armenians, therefore “Armenian population” had to be relocated. I’m confused. Hunchaks and Dashnaks=Armenian population? Didn’t you just imply that these ‘rebellious’ groups were a minority (‘underground’), and the mainstream Armenians stayed loyal to the state? Keep trying to rationalize genocide, I’m enjoying pointing out your logical contradictions.

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    • Why do you not accept to open all archieves(such as Armenian, Russia, Ottoman, American, British, French…etc) and set up a historician committee on researching what happened in 1915?
      Turkey offers it for years.
      Why don’t you accept it and repeat the same thing as a parrot?

27. this one is Tigran’s case , Gayane.
    Let him have some of the fun. Let’s wait a little. He’ll let us know if he’s busy and want us to take over. 

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28. “[…]in some areas Turks were not the majority. But Turks did not migrate to those places either.”

    Anadolu, they did. Before the establishment of the House of Osman, Seljuk Turks and Mongols—the ancestors of the Ottoman and modern-day Turks—did migrate from the steppes of Mongolia and Central Asia and the mountains of Altay.
     
    “[…]local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans.”
    Now the Turkish commentators changed the tune, huh? Now they tell us that native rulers were allied with the Ottomans. Alliance suggests a voluntary action, which historically it was not. Native peoples and their rulers were colonized by the Ottomans, and under restrictions imposed on them as millets had to maintain unhappy existence under the Turkish yoke.
     
    “If you have an internal disorder, with rebellious organizations like the dashnak, hushnak or other underground organizations[…]secretly and sneaky sabotaging Ottoman army lines, while the state is attacked from everywhere, […t]his is a very critical point, this is something which no government on earth would tolerate.”
    By the mid-19th-early 20th centuries, all colonized nations in the Ottoman empire—Greeks, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Albanians, Armenians, and even your fellow Muslim Arabs—wished to slough off colonial shackles and live as independent nations. From the perspective of these nations, it was nothing else than freedom-fighting, struggle for liberation. But let’s get to the point which you characterize as ‘critical’, i.e. no government on earth would tolerate [the struggle of the colonized peoples] which you call internal disorder. It is, indeed, critical, because if we forget for a second that those nations’ struggle was just, in civilized nations governments take into custody those few who stir unrest. Were there a few Armenians revolutionaries longing for freedom for their countrymen? You bet there were, as they were in any nation that ultimately seceded from the Ottomans. But the critical point is that Ottoman Turks preferred not to take into custody those few, but exterminate 2 million innocent people representing one of the most ancient civilizations inhabiting the Earth. On an individual level, if you’re a ‘criminal’, however righteous your motives are, and I’m a gendarme representing a state which, as you say, won’t tolerate unrest, what do you think would be my actions against you? Would I place you, as a perceived criminal, under arrest or I’d rape your mother and sister in front of you, mutilate your father, decapitate your brother, and rip off the womb of your pregnant little sister? This is not an horror movie, Anadolu. These are the barbarian methods of your granfathers.

    The concern of the Ottoman Turks with regard to Armenians was not the internal state order that a few Armenian revolutionaries couldn’t possibly disrupt. After all, there was no single organized mass violence by Armenians against the Turks before 1915. Put your hand on your heart and refer me to any such a mass disorder that Ottoman Armenians caused against the state, even in a Turkish source. You’ll find none. After all, Armenians lived in their majority in the areas fa-a-a-r removed from the frontlines of WWI. The major concern of your savage grandfathers was to secure as much lands from the crumbling Ottoman empire as possible. With the Balkans, Middle East, and Arabia gone, independent Armenians, residing for millennia in the eastern parts of the empire and Cilicia, could have meant the end of Turkish presence in eastern Anatolia. This is the critical point that, I’d dare to say, all of historians agree upon.

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29. Anadolu, even during the ottoman times Armenia was called ARMENIA in every document ,be it the European or Ottoman document!

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30. Avery.. you are right..:) Tigran did a great job and I am sure he would want to say something in regards to Anadolu’s comments.. so we will wait..

    However, I want to say Gor did an excellent job replying to Anadolu… well said Gor jan..

    Gayane  

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31. Dear Gor, Thank you for the good answers and the examples that you gave to Anadolu, I couldn’t have said it better.  I just wish to add that Dashnaktsutyun nor Henchagyans were not underground organizations but very dignified and respectful nationalistic organizations to save Armenians from the Turkish mobs; and they were created right around the Hamidian massacres when Abdul Al Hamid II annihilated 300,000 Armenians on the highlands of Armenia from 1895-1896.  Even then the Turks wanted to do away with the Armenians; all of them.  Henchagyans first then Dashnagtsutyun were created because Armenians were constantly and continuously were being targeted by the Turkish mob in Turkey.  Ever since the Mongolian Seljuk Ottoman Turks came from the middle of Asia in the 10th century, Armenians didn’t have peace.  The entire Armenian population were living in fear every day of their lives; the little boys were being stolen from their mothers, which the Turks made “yenicheris” out of them; which meant, the Turks created a huge Turkish army out of our little stolen boys.  Then our most beautiful women were targeted to be stolen either for the Turks’ harems or whatever their desires were at the time (to rape and kill them or to keep them as their wives in their harems).  Armenians were never safe in their lands living within the Turkish yoke and living next to the Turkish people.  That’s why Henchagyans and Dashnagtsuyun organizations were created to somehow bring safety and solace for the local Armenian people who only worried to go about their jobs, to mind the crops, the sheeps, build bridges, Monasteries, Churches and sing their songs.  When the Ittihadists (the jeneus Turks) came in 1908 they wanted to finish the job of Abdul Hamid, to completely do a thorough annihilation of the Armenians.  They realized that the Armenian question must be finished right then and there and with their bloody criminal bloodsoaked hands. 

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32. To finish my point above is this.  Why the jeunes Turks, the Ittihadists wanted to finish with the Armenian question and kill all the Armenians, perhaps most of us Armenians didn’t know it 50 or so years ago, in another words most of our anscestors probably didn’t know it either; but today most of us know the real reasons of the Armenian Genocide by the hands of the Ittihadists.  They were jealous of Armenians because they were hard working ingenius people and most were very rich, especially the ones who were in the trade business, they were jealous because they wanted their people to take over the businesses and the riches of the Armenians.  They wanted all of Western Armenian lands, but without Armenians.  It was all for money.  Yes lands too, but it was mostly for money.

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33. Let us all remember what Talaat Pasha asked to the U.S. ambassador Morgenthau in and around 1918, after he had most of the Armenians killed by that time and the women and the children were sent into the death marches of southern Arabia by his own orders.  “Do you know where all the insurance papers of the Armenians are”, Talaat asked to Morgenthau.  “They are all dead now, could you give me their insurance papers, so that I will collect their insurance monies?”  This is what Talaat asked to ambassador Morgenthau, and Morgenthau shook his head with disgust and didn’t give him any such insurance forms. 

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34. ANADOLU!
    I think you’d find better acceptance amongst other Turkish apologists and revisionists elsewhere rather than wasting your (and our) time staying in this forum.

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35. Dear Gayane,

    and you sound like the typical person who in his mind prefers an exaggerated adoration of anything that harms Turks. Fact is whoever did wrong did wrong, and God does not like people who do wrong indifferent to which ethnic group he belongs, but when you try to exaggerated things in order to win your case, than this is no help.

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36. Dear Gor,

    if you go back to the times before the Ottoman empire, yes of course Turks migrated from the Asian steps. But this kind of migrations is a human attitude and not merely something that only Turks have doneJ. Armenians maybe also connected to the Persians, before they migrated from Mesopotamia.
    “[…]local or native rulers who were once and for all allied with the Ottomans
    Yes some alliance were made by force some were voluntarily, see Algeria, Tunis, Libya
    Colonized? Please compare the colonization with France, Spain, Belgium, Britain and the Ottomans.
    In the European Parliament, a Greek deputy recently thanked the Ottomans for their fare treatment. As rightly remember, he said thank you that we still can speak our own language it is not normal to speak its own native language after 500 years Ottoman rule. If you keep in mind American or African natives. Anyway I need to continue work, otherwise I’ll get firedJ.
    We may have different perceptions, but I respect the Armenians since we are actually the same people from the same lands.

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37. The history is irrefutable, Armenians have lived in Anatolia since time immemorial. That cannot be denied. There have been many ups and downs during that history. That cannot be denied. But, just as contemporary Mayan or Incan Indians do not maintain a seething anger against the Spanish, despite their horribly low status in their own lands, it does not serve Armenians to stew in anger, either. The real question is, how long does it go on?  WHen does your focus turn from injuries of the past to securing our future?  History is fine, but it does not feed, clothe or heat people’s homes. Thousands upon thousands are leaving Armenia because there are no jobs there and they cannot survive. What is your answer for this situation?

    Robert – yes, I appreciate your assesment about the academic standards at places like Yeprad College. They were, in fact, very high.

       

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38. Anadolu:    Please don’t ‘Dear’ me as a typically Turkish cajolery. Thanks for admitting that Turks are a migrant nation. This must open your eyes to the fact that your forefathers never belonged in Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau. I understand that migrations are characteristic to many peoples, but we’re talking here about a Seljuk/Mongol migration that brought devastation and mass death to highly-developed civilizations inhabiting Asia Minor: Byzantine Greek, Assyrian, and Armenian. Do you appreciate the difference between a mere migration and a migration that was, in essence, a military invasion resulted in destruction of sedentary peoples and their cultural achievements? After invasion and throughout colonization of those peoples, they were physically annihilated in the early 20th century by the Turks. Can you find any mass of Greeks, Armenians, or Assyrians in modern-day Turkey? If migrations, as you said, are ‘human attitude’, are invasions, colonization, and mass physical extermination of indigenous peoples also a ‘human attitude’?
     
    BTW: There are many hypotheses of the origin of the Armenian people, but none mentions Mesopotamia as Armenian homeland. Whether Armenians originated in an area where they lived until being mass murdered by the Turks or not, there is no historical evidence that’d suggest that Armenians caused destruction on massive scale to any indigenous civilizations and then presented other peoples’ cultural edifices as their own, a widespread practice of modern-day Turks with regard to the remnants of the Armenian, Greek, and Assyrian churches, monasteries, and cemeteries.
     
    Alliances and colonization.   I speak for Christian Armenians, and also for Greeks and Assyrians, if I may, not for Muslim nations. Some of them might have entered voluntary alliances with the Turks. However, most of the indigenous peoples that Seljuks invaded and Ottomans colonized didn’t invite your ancestors to do so. They fought. They resisted invasions. They were disgruntled by the fact of colonization, even your fellow Muslim Arabs, whose intelligentsia were hanged in Allepo. It was a sheer colonization that made native peoples miserable, voiceless millets under the Ottomans. I don’t have to compare Ottoman colonization with the colonization of the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British for one major reason. Beside grief and oppression, the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British also brought development and civilization to the nations they colonized. Ottoman Turks, descendants of uncivilized nomadic barbarians, brought nothing but grief and oppression which in the late 19th-early 20th centuries culminated into mass physical extermination of all Christian peoples in the Ottoman empire. Hundreds of thousands of Greeks and Assyrians were exterminated. Armenians suffered the most heinous form of extermination: the genocide and forced deportation of 2 million innocent human beings. Show me any such barbarism during the colonization by the French, Spaniards, Belgians, and the British? Can you?

    I don’t know what a Greek deputy said in the European Parliament, but the only two major rights that were allowed for Ottoman millets to have were language and restricted practice of religion. The Greek deputy must have forgotten that witness accounts of a Christian against a Turk were disregarded in Ottoman courts; that Christians were unbearably overtaxed as compared to Turks; that Christians were barred from carrying weapons; that Christian villages were subject to constant pillages, loot, and abductions by Muslim bands that always went unpunished; that the windows of a Christian house must not have overlooked the windows of a Turkish house; that Christians were not allowed to mount a horse in order not to be higher than a pedestrian Turk. This we know for sure. Is this called Turkish ‘civilization’?

    Lastly, Armenians and Turks are not ‘the same people from the same lands’. We are an Arian people, not barbarians.Our language belongs to the Indo-European family of language, not Turkic Oghuz family. We are a sedentary people, not nomads. Our lands traditionally were the Armenian Plateau in the easternmost part of Asia Minor, not in the Central Asian steppes and the Altay Mountains. We are the first nation to adopt Christianity as official religion, not Muslims. We’re known by our contributions to the world civilization in arts and sciences, business and trade, architecture, and military art, not by invasions, colonization, and genocide of other nations.
     

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39. Karekin-bey, borrowing from Avery, I refuted your mumblings in other threads, and, make no mistake, will do so whenever and wherever you pop off. Again, contemporary Mayan or Incan Indians, although seen colonization by Conquistadors, continue to live in their historic homeland. Armenians, in contrast, were mass murdered by the Turks and their historic homeland stolen from them as a result.
     
    When does our focus turn from injuries of the past to securing our future? Whenever the murderer apologizes to the victim.

    What is our answer for the situation where thousands are leaving Armenia because there are no jobs there? This situation has been created by what you think cannot feed, clothe or heat people’s homes: history. Landlocked modern-day Armenia is the consequence of the historical fact of theft of Western Armenia by the Turks. Struggling modern-day Armenia is the consequence of the historical fact of physical extermination of Western Armenians and theft of their property and bank accounts.
     
    Not to see this obvious historical link means either playing ostrich or tilting minds. The latter ain’t gonna happen…

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    • Ok then!
      Let’s leave Anatolia for you.
      What are you talking about?
      500 hundred years ago, America was belong to whom?
      Please leave America for them of course if you can find them!

40. To Karekin
    The elderly go mostly to Russia  and accept citizenship to receive pension which Russia owes them since they’ve worked all they life for Soviet Union,and  Russia kept the funds.So it’s justified!And there is no requirement to live there,that’s why everyone returns after they do all the paperwork .I am an Armenian from Armenia,and i know this.

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41. Anadolu,

    FYI- I am not a man.. I am a woman..

    Second of all—–you said
     Fact is whoever did wrong did wrong, and God does not like people who do wrong indifferent to which ethnic group he belongs, but when you try to exaggerated things in order to win your case, than this is no help.
     You just described A TRUE, CODE RED TURKISH DENIALIST …. you hit the nail on its head.. now you understand how your govt is trying to do harm to Armenian people….BY EXAGGERATING their  lies and consequences of not following its orders to be SOOOOOOOOOO DAMAGING that no country especially USA would want to extend the wipping hand toward Turks…meaning having those countries to punish Turkey by any means and say Turkish govt YOU ARE GUILTY and YOU NEED TO CONFESS AND MAKE THINGS RIGHT….

    You speak of GOD???? YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUu??? now this is a first… but unfortunately you used our Lord Jesus Christ in a completly wrong way.. so instead of using GOD which I doubt your ancestors even remotely understood what HE stands for because my people were slaughtered just because they were Christians, you should not talk… but you should truly listen and read things that my friends provide to you.. information you might have never heard of.. So open your eyes and ears and pay attention.. You might be saved… i hope you will..

    Gayane  

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42. Seervart jan— apres.. loved it…:)

    Karekin– I hear you but i don’t get you.. how can you continue to preach the same thing again: history is history and we need to move on.. WE WILL NOT MOVE ON UNTIL JUSTICE IS SERVED my friend.. you do get that right?…

    No on on these pages want to neglect the fact that our country is getting smaller and smaller because alot of our sisters and brothers  leave.. and YES.. that is a problem… a problem that needs to be fixed immediately and no one is denying.. however, we can’t just leave what has been in the works for years and the struggle and the time and money and efforts we put in to accomplish what we started and DESERVE… and that is correcting the history TUrks rewrote about the ARmenians, get them recognize what their ancestors have done and give back what their ancestors have stolen…… without this, they will remain as the murderors who got away with murder.. tha is UNACCEPTABLE.. however, at the same time we need to work ongetting our country back on its feet with whatever means we have.. that is what I am doing.. but we can’t leave one and just concentrate on the other.. These two matters go hand in hand…

    Thank you

    Gayane      

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43. Gor jan… EXCELLENT.. loved reading your comments.. Avery was right.. you definintely are doing your part and I am sooooo glad… hopefully Anadolu and his pathetic friends and we all know who they (actually i am surprised none of them peeked their ugly heads in these thread but i have a feeling someone will pop up sooner or later)  are reading such posts and maybe learning something true…. i am just hoping…

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44. It is amazing that Turkish-trolls never tire of digging up and gloating over bad news from Armenia, yet never seem to be able to find any good news about Armenia in the same world-wide-web. “…maybe there are no good news from Armenia,” you ask innocently ?
    Au contrair, mon ami.
     
    Someone in another thread recently said, “…Read it and weep, folks….”, while linking to yet another article of woes of Armenia.
     
     
    Well, Armenian folks and  friends, read and rejoice. “Armenia registers second industrial growth among CIS states”. (News.am) 
    http://news.am/eng/news/69934.html   

    With all the roadblocks being thrown at RoA, they are able to achieve this much.
    Just imagine what our people could do with access to the Black Sea and the worlds oceans – to have low-cost, reliable trade and transportation routes.
    (BTW: that same somebody also asked what we, Armenians, would do when we get back Western Armenia (that’s right, I said when)). 

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45. AMEN to that Avery jan.. AMEN…

    If we only had the free trade and open borders and sound govt.. we will absolutely rule the area….Turks know this very well…they know that we were superior in education, trade, arts, and culture back then; which is why they attempted to destroy us and they know that now.. which is why they are doing EVERYTHING not to allow that to happen.. but WHEN that happens.. and yes Avery jan I am with you on this.. WHEN that happens, there is no stopping…

    Gayane   

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46. another piece of cheerful news from Turkey that Turkish-trolls somehow missed, and we cheerfully bring to your attention: ‘Turks lack knowledge, learn from television’ (source Hurriyet).

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=8216turks-lack–knowledge-learn-from–television8217-2011-08-02

     

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47. Gayane, although I sympathize with and understand your sentiments and where they come from, keep in mind…no country on earth has ever won a multi-front war, and that’s exactly what this is. So, you have to pick your battles carefully. We do not have alot of resources, so, I think the most important thing is to protect what we have, rather than spend time and energy on what we’ve lost. I know it sounds painful, but why risk what we have?  Why risk the lives of those living in Armenia now and worse, the viability of the entire country?  Someone who is always looking backwards will usually walk into a ditch or a wall, because they are not looking ahead. Sounds corny, but it’s a truism that is worth noting here. 

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48. Avery jan.. thank you for the link about the Turkish lack knowledge piece.. I read it and I also commented on the article…

    one section of the article nailed it:
    When asked whether or not they would be eager to attend an educational program that could help them with commonly encountered problems, between 57 and 65 percent of the families surveyed said it was “not necessary” and added that information from TV and newspapers was sufficient to solve their problems.

    This is why we have so many denialists such as Roberts, Anadolus, Murats, and alike…because they are not educated enough of what is true history, they don’t know their own history let alone try to understand others, they are oblivious, deprived from what every day man and woman needs to know to be independent.. i mean this is why Turkish govt wants though. because they can control them like puppets.. it is sad…

    Gayane   
       

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49. I agree! Every Armenian church must display historic Armenia as well. I would make sure, my church does display these maps. I expect you do the same.

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50. Theoritically, all interested parties in the region seek peace. It would be in interest of all these parties in the region to have a viable Armenian state. Without ARARAT and without access to the black see, there would not be peace in Armenia and in the region as well. Without ARARAT, Armenians are beings with lost soul. I cannot imagine Armenia without ARARAT. Legally, ARARAT belongs to Armenia. The reason for those unfortunate protocols were to legalize the current boarder between Turkey and Armenia which implies that the current boarder is not legal otherwise there would not have been any reason to include those provisions. Only way there would be peace between Turks and Armenians is that Turks return our Western Armenia pay punitive damages for their genocide against Armenians. Every Armenian is obligated to pursue these goals if he or she is proud to be called an Armenian.

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51. “I think the most important thing is to protect what we have, rather than spend time and energy on what we’ve lost.”   —-Following the same ‘logical’ magnum opus by Karekin-bey, Gayane, in 1988-1994 Armenians should have only protected the Republic, not freedom-fighting Artsakh that was lost to Azeristan as a result of Stalin’s transfer in the early 1920s. See, what Socrates-like ‘logic’ the guy has… Amazing logic!

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52. Asa eh Karo jan.. Asa.. bayts inch anem? Karekin just can’t get it.. i know where he is coming from, i understand it but the way he goes about it is all wrong… he is just concentrated on ONE thing.. and that ain’t happening with me. no way…well what can we do? that is the way he is I guess…

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53. Avery,

    Recntly you asked me for a source of my info about Armenia-German connection. I could not remember then, but today I coincidentally came across that again.
    If you go to armeniansworld.com and scroll down to “ARmenian God AR and Hayk Forefather” click on it then scroll down a bit you will find it.  
     

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54. AR:  I checked the link: an interesting site. ‘Stephanie Nazoyan from Canada’ is really beautiful.

    OK, on to more unpleasant stuff.

    re: “Thousands of years later, in the first century AD, another Armenian leader, bearing the sacred name of his kinsmen — Armen or Ar-Man, known Armin[ius] to the Romans and Herman [German]…” 

    I know of Arminius, but not as an Armenian. If he were Armenian, and  neither German nor Roman sources would reveal it –  would be no surprise. However, the citation in the link is weak: there are no precise dates, nor how he got to Germany from Armenia and such, with 30,000 Armenian horsemen: that’s a huge number in those days; there would be record of their travels.  Maybe the author did not have space, but I will have to check other Armenian historians. I don’t remember any other source that cites Arminius as Armenian, but one never knows. For now though, I have to assume he is not. Sorry.

    If I find other sources confirming it, I’ll post. 

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55. Gor, I welcome your intellectual inputs on these pages of AW and I appreciate your last post as well.  Thank you.

    @Anadolu,  I have never heard that Armenians migrated and or came from Mesopotamia.  More than 5,000 years ago Armenians were tribal people and some came from the Thrace region, while others came from today’s north-western Greece, the Hiasa’s, Nairi’s then migrated to the Armenian Highlands and were mixed  with the Urartians in

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56. Avery,
    One of the most valuable ARmenians alive, Alexander Varpetyan, also covers that topic.  I don’t remember where exactly he does, but he was my original source for ARmeno-German connection.

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57. Dear Tigran,
    The Huchnaks and Dashnaks, had their aims. And anything what stood against it had to be removed, why don’t you check the manifesto  of these groups.(see below one citation). It’s not much different than today’s terrorist groups, or the communist cells that killed through terrorist acts government staff and ordinary citizens. The Huchnak and Dashnaks were recruiting more Armenians, which were radicalized by their propaganda, but Armenians who lived in welfare were not interested in that.
    To create social chaos against which the Ottoman army would react and to thereby ensure the intervention of Western powers in the situation.
    All was very well planed, create chaos, attack muslim citizens (in oder to have revenge and killings), by that it would be blamed to the Ottoman State. Ask western countries for help because Armenians were killed, with the assistance of Western Consuls and it’s Christian missionaries assisting the Huchnak and Dashnak propaganda in transmitting it to western public opinion.

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58. One more example:
    The first move adopted on April 24, 1915 was to ban all Armenian committees and to arrest 2.345 leaders for crimes against the State. The date of April 24, commemorated by the Armenians abroad as the anniversary of genocide against Armenians, is the date of these arrests and has nothing to do with the replacement.
    The Etchmiasin Patriarch, a priest named Kevork, sent the following cable to the United States President upon this move:
    Mr. President, according to the latest news received from the Turkish Armenia, a massacre started there and an organised terror has put the Armenian lives in danger. In this precarious moment, I am addressing to the noble sentiments of the great American nation and ask you to intervene immediately through your Great Republic’s diplomatic representation for protecting my people left to the mercy of the violence of Turkish fanaticism, on behalf of humanity and Christian belief.
    Kevorg, Ecumenic Patriarch of all Armenians.
    This cable was followed by the Washington contacts of the Russian Ambassador.
    The incident here was merely the banning of Armenian committees and the arrest of the culprits. Yet, the Armenians endeavoured to display it as a massacre and to rally the United States and Russia into their ranks.

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59. Anadolu – the Armenian political parties – which were working with the leaders of the CUP, were taking steps to 1) stop unfair taxation and reform land ownership issues 2) defend their towns and villages from government sponsored (Kurdish) raids and 2) move towards autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, what would bring the benfits of the millet system to a political level. Even though they had seen Greece and other territories gain independence earlier, that was not their original aim. It was not until they were betrayed by the leaders of the CUP did they become more emphatic in trying to protect the Armenian population. You may see this as ‘terrorist’ activity, but from the Armenian point of view, it was purely self-defense. The response by the CUP was a multi-year, murderous rampage designed to get rid of Armenians, steal everything they owned and had created, and open up space for Muslims who were leaving the Balkans and the Caucasus. It many ways, it was the precursor of the idea promoted by Hitler, to open more space for Germans. And, the result was the same…national disaster, not just for Armenians, but for Turks, Greeks and everyone else who had lived under the Ottoman umbrella. Most nations have their creation myths, and Ataturk, by erasing as much evidence as possible, sought to reprogram people’s minds. His propaganda effort…to elevate the word ‘Turk’, while demoting those who had actually built and supported the empire for centuries, the Armenians and Greeks, was racist to the core. It’s almost laughable, because he himself, was not a Turk at all…and he expanded the stain created by the Ittihadists. This, Turkey for the Turks (many of whom were never really Turks at all)….concept created misery and pain for millions of people for decades. You can’t blame Armenians for any of that….it was self-created by Turkey’s revered, if criminal, leaders, who by the way, ran the country with an iron fist.       

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60. It was indeed a massacre planned and carried out as such. The goal was to exterminate community leaders with the goal of drowning out those that might raise their voices to outside powers/publicize the continued deterioration of situation with regards to the Christian population in Turkey. And guess what happened to the vast majority of those 2,345 Armenians (the vast majority of whom were not involved in politics and none of whom called for the overthrow of the Ottoman state)? They were killed. No explanation, no trial, just taken from their families wholesale  and killed. Soon after the roundups and massacres of Armenians in the interior intensified (these had actually begun in late 1914) and now in areas nowhere near “the front”. 

    The Hunchak and Dashnaks will always be the red herring for Turks and used as an excuse. Again, the vast majority of Armenians were not involved in politics, were not party members, and were just trying to survive from day to day (an awful like the Kurds today–Turks never learn I guess. They de-populated and destroyed thousands of villages, made life miserable for the Kurdish population for decades in order to eliminate a few thousand members of the PKK but in the process have ensured that the PKK continues to gain new membership through their heavy-handed methods. How is that working for Turkey? And they Turks have the audacity to complain about the light of Palestinians, Uighurs, etc—-hypocrisy). While the Hunchaks were the more radical of the two– and also a very small membership, the Dashnaks were eager to work with the CUP but were eventually betrayed by the Pan-Turk elements that took charge. Some of those 2,345 were actually parliament members when they were killed. 

    That priest had every right to notify outside forces about the situation. Where else could he turn, the Ottoman authorities? The ones that were committing this crime? Would you trust a government that is terrorizing your people?

     

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61. Dear Gor,
    To Dear you is not a typically Turkish cajolery It’s a standard way of starting a correspondence with each other. And second it’s a form of respect nothing else. Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier some later. Some have fought battles for it and defended it successfully and some conquered lands. Before Turks arrived, there was War as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian wars over Anatolia. You exaggerate again, Byzantine Greek was so great so wonderful yes, and you forgot the heavy taxation of the Greeks and how badly they treated non Greek citizens. If after the Turks settled between Armenians and Kurds and all with it brought great devastation and mass death over centuries as you said, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?
    Armenian people, so if you are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accept the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians. Or mix marriages. But in your mind of course it would only forced mixes through harems and enslaving. In those days every nation enslaved other as a spoil of war, so don’t worry it was not a mere Turkish practice.
    Colonization, the French massacred almost 1 million Algerians this is only to mention so it was not only mere oppression and grief. Spaniards who destroyed and killed and totally annihilated South America in the early colonization British who murdered peaceful American Indians, Native African but no problem they were all uncivilized right? Where are the Indian American now, in reservation camps? What is left of Native American nothing, right nothing is left.
    Lastly, your comparison shows just how deep frustrated you have become with all this extreme stories about so called brutal Turks and innocent Armenians. Radical Armenians killed and massacred so many innocent Turkish and Kurdish citizens, and at this fact you won’t even look, but for you Turks and Kurds are uncivilized and barbarians. If you show such hatred, do not wonder why people take measures in order to protect themselves from hatred. I guess this ideological hatred against the Turks and Kurds, brought the actual war between the people of Ottoman Empire.

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62. Children gather around for tonight’s happy fairytale.
     
    There was this mythical paradise called Ottoman Empire, where Christians and Muslims lived happily as equals.
    Turks, whom the indigenous Armenians had invited to come in from their homeland near the Altai Mountains, treated their gracious hosts with great respect and love. Armenian boys, girls, and young women were lovingly abducted and subjected to …. lovemaking.
     
    Armenians were allowed to ride horses, same as Turks.
    Armenians were allowed to testify against Turks in court, same as other Muslims.
    Armenians were taxed at the same rate as Turks.
     
    In 1895,  300,000-500,000 Armenians were lovingly massacred by their caring Father, Sultan Hamid.
    In 1909, another 30,000 Armenians were lovingly massacred in Adana. 
    There were regular massacres to show Armenians how much they were loved and appreciated.
     
     
    All that love and harmony came to an abrupt  and tragic end in 1915. Evil foreigners from Salonika, who were not Turks, decided to disrupt the peace and harmony that existed between Armenians and Turks, the Christians and Muslims.  They were not Turks, they were not even Muslims – but presented themselves as such. They were of that “other” religion. They were, umm, ummm,…..,Jooos. Even their leader Mustafa Kemal was a Joo.
     
    So they succeeded in destroying the Ottoman Paradise, exterminated 1.5 million Armenians, several hundred thousand Greeks and Assyrians – and succeeded in blaming it all on Turks: a false, scurrilous accusation.
     
    Go to bed now children. Happy dreams.

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63. Avery jan.. you are the best.. can’t get enough of your posts… i swear you just make these discussion so much interesting.. i truely enjoyed your last post.. You just made Anadolu look so small with his nonsense that I hope he stops embarassing himself over and over again.. it does not seem like he gets the point that his comments sound sooo stupid because his notion of history is soooooooo distracted by what he was fed by the TUrkish govt that it is sickening…thank you..i was laughing… :)

    Gayane

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64. Anadolu- Please STOP… WOW.. i don’t know if you are truly ignorant about the facts of life and hstory or you just being intentionally ignorant and can’t stop yourself from writing soo much garbage?? i don’t get it..

    You said
    Armenian people, so if you are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accept the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians. Or mix marriages

    ok so you have lived thousands years ago and had a Mesopotamian family friend right? you know how they look like… well if you are that educated, why don’t you give us an example of how Mesopotamians look like because I have no idea… i have never seen one myself… obviously you have in your lifetime, otherwise you would not be so sure that we look like them…

    Why do we look like Turks??? We DONT look like TUrks.. .Turks look like US… unfortunately, indigenous Armenian race was fair skin and light eyes..  you know why this dynamic changed over?? ummmmmmm….welllll… knowing that your capacity of true history is limited or simply just not there, i would say because of rape, forceful marriages and adbuctions of beautiful Armenian women by your barbaric ancestors… your ancestors had a plan.. to mix their genes with Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians.. because these people were simply more beautiful…your race is pleaseant to look at  because of our beautiful women.. you should thank us for giving you good looking genes.. the mixed marriages you speak of is the product of Genocide and not because Armenians were dying to mix with your barbaric ancestors… I know it sounds harsh but reality and truth usually does…… so you stand corrected on this statement…….

    Many Armenian accepted Islam? ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR MIND? if any of them who accepted Islam is ONLY because they had NO CHOICE.. NO CHOICE you hear me.. don’t act like Armenians were dying to join the Islam and accept that as their religion… They did that to survive from your barbaric ancestors… do you understand that much? No Armenian in their right mind will turn to Islam.. We are Christians and we will remain as such….So you stand corrected on this statement as well.. Where do you get this stuff?? Who provides you this nonsense???….      

    You said:  If after the Turks settled between Armenians and Kurds and all with it brought great devastation and mass death over centuries as you said, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?

    ummmmm because Armenians were already established before the barbarians arrived and it took some time before Turks realized Armenians are better than them and they can’t allow them to live or else … soooo Anadolu to answer your question… Armenians have ALWAYS been superior in their intellect, culture, arts, music, trade than Turks.. maybe after you realize this much, then you will understand why your ancestors attempted to wipe out a race tha they were intimidated of…so don’t act like the Ottomans allowed Armenians to be rich businessmen, or built churches and schools…. so you stand corrected on this statement ….

    I feel like this is a nonstop rollercoaster with your denalists… we turn one and another pops up… Do you mind letting us know where you received your education about Armenian history and GEocide??? I would like to understand where you are coming from and what sources you get your information… i would suggest though..turn to sources OUTSIDE OF your Turkish propaganda pages, and learn from Non-Turkish sources… the information you will learn will enlighten and astonish you… it may be hurtful because you will know the truth but nonetheless it will be very helpful…    who knows ????

    Gayane  
     

      
      

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65. Karekin–great post. Well done.

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66. Anadolu:    We’re not involved in the exchange of official correspondence so you must start your comments with a mandatory salutation ‘Dear’. I take it as a mockery. Please refrain. Least of all I need ‘respect ’ from a Turk whose ancestors buried my paternal relatives alive near Digranakert (Diyarbekir). You’ll soon get rebuttals to each and every historically distortive excuse that you offered for the Turkish mistreatment and genocide of Armenians. Until then, drink a cup of coffee and continue daydreaming about what highly-civilized, peaceful, and human life-respecting nation the Turks are.

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67. Anadol brought up an interesting point regarding genetics. The Turks were asiatic nomads in Central Asia, much more akin to physical attributes of Mongolians and more specifically Uighurs. Along there westward the Turks adopted Islam, mixed with the Persians, (adopted many Persian loan words and customs). During the time the Byzantines were in flux. Through warfare, kidnapping, rape etc, the Seljuks (and later the Osmalis) appropriated the bloodlines of Armenians, Assyrians, Greeks (Kurds also to a degree though at this time they were located in northern Persia what is now northern Iraq)This would be repeated in the Balkans. THe vast majority of Turks are now related more closely to the aforementioned peoples than their Central Asia forbearers. Some Turks (though few) have retained their Central Asia lineage- namely the Yuruks and some minor Turcoman family groups now living in Central Anatolia. These tribesmen followed a century or so after the initial Seljuk and Osman push. That being said, beyond language the all the trappings of Turkish culture, cuisine, architecture, etc come from Persians, Greek, Armenians, Assyrians, Slav. You cannot fault them for this. You can only fault them for trying to hide it 

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68. Gayane:

    Thanks, but my fairytale was directed at someone that posts under an Armenian name.
    Read his  post in this thread carefully: there is a subtle message that has been proffered previously and to which I object to. If you are not familiar with his agenda, you need to take the time to read  his previous posts. He is not crude and obvious as most of the Turks posting here, but far more effective in spreading a defeatist and divisive message.

    Gor and Tigran are handling Anadolu: he/she is in good hands.

    (thanks again for the kind words)

     

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69. Of course, Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian, but they are not and have never been European or Greek or anything else. That is a fantasy imposed on them by the Americans and British to justify their incursion into Armenian territory and make Armenians feel ashamed at their own past and history. Armenians have been an indigenous people, probably since their arrival from the south (as per the legend of Hayk), perhaps 10,000 or more, years ago. 

    As for the myths that are part of today’s Turkish nationalist consciousness…let’s not forget that these lies have been pounded into the heads of Turkish children for several generations. It is not unlike the tradition in America that until relatively recently – the 1970s ? – always called the native American Indians ‘savages’…only because they fought to defend their homeland.  Those left in Turkey after 1923 were not even able or allowed to read anything of their past, because the Arabic script and Osmanli Turkish became not only foreign to them, but incomprehensible. History was not offered in translation, but reinvented thru the myths and racist fantasies of Ataturk and his cohorts.  As a result, several generations of modern Turks have no idea who really built their country…or that their cultural patrimony was developed, not by Turks, but by Armenians.  One small, but key example is Hampartzum Limondjian…who devised the musical notation for all classical Turkish music that is still in use today. Another is the Balyan family of architects, or Sinan…who designed and built some of the most beautiful mosques in the world. Armenians are an important part of Turkish history. No one should ever forget them or their contributions. And, if they need to be reminded…Armenians are more than willing to offer remedial education. 

     

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70. Avery jan.. I totally know what you are saying now.. I know exactly who the story was for.. I got it..:) and I agree with you.. but to my surprise, his last few comments were actually pro-Armenian.. :)

    I am confident Gor and Tigran will handle this matter very well..:)

    Gayane   

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71. “Of course, Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian, but they are not and have never been European[…]. Americans and British’[…] incursion into Armenian territory.”
     
    —-Six illiterate blunders in one sentence:
     
    (1)Of course.    Karekin-efendi the Historian has already determined—while international historians are still debating the origins of Armenians because origins of ancient peoples are hard to ascertain for sure—that of course Armenians are Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian.
     
    (2)Armenians are Mesopotamians.   New magnum opus by Karekin-efendi the Historian never in any chronicle or scholarly publication existed before he popped off on these pages. The itinerary of the Noah’s Ark, i.e. where it was built and from where it came to the mountains of Ararat and landed are still hotly debated by true historians, but the newly-cooked ones already know that Haik, the grandson of one Noah’s sons, Japeth, came from the south.
     
    (3)Armenians are Anatolians.   What is Anatolia? Never has such a geographical toponym appeared in ancient chronicles until Turks started to name eastern parts of Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau as ‘Anatolia’ or in Turkish ‘Anadolu’ (also a pen name which a Turkish denialist uses in this thread). Armenians  have their own, unique geographical location called Armenian Plateau in eastern Asia Minor. There has never been ‘Anatolia’ involved in this in ancient history.
     
    (4)Armenians are Caucasian.   Only if related to race, but I don’t think Karekin-efendi the Historian meant race, but geographical affinity, rather. Armenians do not belong to Caucasian peoples because they have no access to the Caucasus mountain range, as Georgians and all those numerous mountainous peoples residing there. The greater part of the Armenian homeland is in eastern parts of Asia Minor, what are now eastern provinces of Turkey after they were savagely emptied of Armenians in 1915. Even during the Soviet times, the Russians called the region where the Armenian Soviet republic situated ‘Transcaucasia’, meaning: what lies beyond the Caucasus mountain range. This said, Georgians are much more Caucasian by nature than Armenians.
     
    (5)Armenians have never been European.   Only in as much as they have never been Mesopotamian or Anatolian or Caucasian. However, Armenians were the easternmost neighbors and sometimes parts of three great European empires: the Roman, the Byzantine Greek, and the Russian.
     
    (6)Americans and British’[…] incursion into Armenian territory.    I should like to see any evidence of the American and British’ incursion in to Armenia. Would be humbly grateful to Karekin-efendi the Historian for his enlightenment of this ‘Mesopotamian and Anatolian and Caucasian’ Armenian intellectual.

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72. Karekin,  Why don’t you read further into the history of the Armenians.  Part of the Armenians did migrate from Thrace as well as from what is north-eastern of today’s Greece as well as the indeginous people living in the Highlands of Armenia (the Haiasas and the Nairians), they were mixed with the Urartians who were located in the Van region within the Armenian Pltateau.

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73. Correction in my above post.  Other than Thrace, Armenians also came from of what is today’s north-western part of Greece before migrating to the Armenian Plateau, much before the Bronze Age.  As I said before and others too in here that we are at least 5,000 year old civilization if not more.

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74. Are you ready, Anadolu? Here I come.
     
    “Every human race has migrated to some places at some time, some earlier some later.”
    — Partly agree. There are also representatives of human race that originated in their unique environment.
     
    “Some have fought battles for it and defended it successfully and some conquered lands.”
    — Partly agree. Other conquered lands, scorched them, devastated structures and cultural edifices, and caused massive loss of human life.
     
    “Before Turks arrived, there was war as well. Don’t forget Greek and Persian wars over Anatolia.”
    — Those wars didn’t bring destruction at a scale remotely reminiscent to what nomadic Turks brought to the region. Also, at those times there was no such a toponym as Anatolia. This is a Turkish creation to indicate a part of Asia Minor and, especially, replace the Armenian Highland (or Plateau) where Armenians have lived for millennia with this cooked-up term.
     
    “Byzantine Greek [levied] heavy taxation and […] badly treated non-Greek citizens.”
    — The major disagreement with the Greeks that Armenians had was bilateral misinterpretations of the nature of Jesus Christ. That is, murders, plots, and sometimes a few small-scale wars that were waged between the Byzantines and Armenians were in larger part related to a Christian doctrine that the Chalcedon Assembly adopted, but Armenians rejected. However, we know no such thing as humiliating treatment of non-Greeks in the Byzantine empire similar to the treatment of non-Turk millets in the Ottoman empire. In case you don’t know, be aware that several of Byzantine emperors were Armenians. Can you imagine such a thing in the Ottoman empire?
     
    “If after the Turks settled and with it they brought great devastation and mass death over centuries, why have there been churches, schools for Armenians over centuries? Why were so many Armenians in the Ottoman government active, why were so many Armenians rich tradesman? Why because of the barbaric Turks?”
    — The answer is very simple. Every metropolis tends to utilize to the best of its abilities the wealth, industrious talents, and cultural achievements of the peripheries. On this, I’d agree with you: Ottoman empire was no different from the Brits or the Spaniards. Churches and schools existed because, like I said, restricted practice of religion and teaching in national language were the only rights that were granted to Armenians. At the same time, Armenians were barred from all other basic civil rights: representation in legislatures, holding an office in the government, legal protection, equal taxes, equal representation in the courts, arms-carrying for self-protection from pillaging Muslim bands, etc. I never heard of Armenians working in the Ottoman government; for the government, yes, for example architects Balian who designed and constructed the Dolmabahçe Palace, but in the government – is a fantasy. Further, Armenians were rich tradesmen first and foremost because of their superior wit and industriousness as compared to Turks. Why were they allowed to function? For the same old imperialistic reason: to enrich the state, as unbearably higher taxes were imposed on Armenians than on Turks. All is very simple.
     
    “If Armenians are not from Mesopotamia why do Armenians look like Mesopotamians? Why do you look like Persians or Turks or Greeks? One reason could be that many Armenians accepted the Islam and became with that Turks or Persians.”
    —This is sheer rubbish. No hypothesis exists that’d suggest that Armenians came from Mesopotamia. I can understand why Armenians, Persians, or Greeks resemble each other, after all of these three nations are ones of the most ancient peoples inhabiting the Earth. But the fact that Turks appeared on the world map only in the 11-12th centuries suggests that it is you who look like Armenians, not the other way round. Do a simple chronology, please.
     
    “Colonization, the French massacred almost 1 million Algerians this is only to mention so it was not only mere oppression and grief. Spaniards who destroyed, killed, and totally annihilated South America, British who murdered peaceful American Indians.”
    — In the French case, it was a colonization war in which, sadly, the French army used force that led to killings of Algerians to repress popular demonstrations and armed rebellions against French domination. No such demonstrations or armed rebellions were registered on the part of unarmed, disorganized, and mostly rural Ottoman Armenians. In the Spanish Conquistadors’ case, the prevailing majority of South American natives became victims of contagious diseases that the Spaniards brought from Europe. Yes, there were killings, too, but a few Conquistadors couldn’t possibly kill hundreds of thousands of natives. Diseases and domestic civil wars were the primary reason. Likewise, in the case of American Indians: there were killings, but the bulk of victims had also died from diseases. Here, you conveniently forget one major difference in all these cases that Turks so love to bring in to justify their genocide of Armenians. Neither Algerians, nor Incas and Mayas, nor American Indians were citizens of the same country as their oppressors. The French were colonizing outsiders. The Spaniards were colonizing outsiders. The British were colonizing outsiders. In the case of Ottoman Armenians, 2-2.2 million people were savagely slaughtered by their own government. Do you appreciate this major difference?
     
    “Where are Indian Americans now, in reservation camps? What is left of Native American, nothing is left.”
    — With all due respect for the American Indians, they did not create structures, or educational, medical, and charitable facilities, or religious institutions, or cultural monuments, or developed pastures, or trade facilities, or business offices. Therefore, almost nothing, except for their villages that are now preserved in reservations, could have been left on Indian lands after the arrival of the British and French. Armenians, in contrast, had a whole ancient civilization developed on their lands. What’s left of it now?

    “Your comparison shows just how deep frustrated you’ve become with all extreme stories about so-called brutal Turks and innocent Armenians. Radical Armenians killed and massacred so many innocent Turkish and Kurdish citizens, and at this fact you won’t even look, but for you Turks and Kurds are uncivilized and barbarians.”
    — Have Armenians exterminated Turks as a nation? If yes, why are you 70 million now? How many Armenians are left in Turkey? 60,000? What happened to 2-2.2 million? If this is not an extreme reality, then what is it? For Armenians, these are not “stories”, these are survivor and witness accounts that were passed to us by our grandparents about the brutality and barbarism of the Ottoman Turks. One can go insane when he reads what indescribable tortures and mutilations your forefathers inflicted on women, girls, children, elders, and even the unborn. If this is not brutality and barbarism, then what is it? I can imagine there were inter-ethnic, inter-communal clashes between different ethnic groups in which Turks were killed, too. But you again conveniently miss the major point: Armenians were not the governing regime of the Ottoman empire and therefore wish not and could not commit the crime on the genocidal scale, as Turks did. No inter-ethnic clashes or grievances in a multi-ethnic empire can justify savage extermination of a whole people by the government. This is what Turks stubbornly fail to hear, because it’s not soothing their ears.
     
    “If you show such hatred, do not wonder why people take measures in order to protect themselves from hatred.”
    — I don’t hate you personally, or any ordinary modern Turk, for that matter. But I hate your unrepentant murderer-state and your denialist government. What would you expect me, a descendant of a genocide survivor, to do for the memory of millions of butchered people? Unconditionally love Turkey?!

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75. Seervart..the theory of ‘Thracian’ origins has been disproved. You need to study the newest history and particularly, the development of languages, especially proto-IndoEuropean. It shows that this entire tree of languages originated in the Armenian highlands, aka, the Armenian plateau, at least 7500 years ago, but possibly as much as 9000 years. If anything points to an indigenous, Armenian origin, this is it. Armenia is not called the cradle of civilization for nothing – it truly was! 

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76. Gor jan.. BRAVO.. absolutely excellent post.. wow… that post just shot all the room to wiggle but then knowing denialists like Anadolu, I am sure they will have something stupid to say EVEN after all that data provided…..thank you.. i truly learned alot..

    Gayane

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77. Seervart, there are several hypotheses on the origin of Armenians; Thracia as a point of migration of a part of proto-Armenians being one of them. Also, north-western part of Greece is where roughly Thracia was situated. Therefore, Thracia and north-western part of modern Greece are not two different locations from where a proto-Armenian tribe might have traveled to the Armenian Plateau. There are other theories, too, however I never heard of Mesopotamia as a migration point of Armenians. In general, a hypothesis cannot be disproved or approved because it is a hypothesis, but what’s becoming increasingly certain is that more international historians and anthropologists tend to agree that the Armenian Plateau might have been the indigenous birthplace of the Armenian nation, where Indo-European Armen and Haik tribes amalgamated with Urartian tribes of Hayasa, Nairi, etc. thus resulting in the modern Armenian nation. This hypothesis is the strongest because it reconfirms that Armenians are not a migrant, but an indigenous nation, a strong argument against Turkish allegations that, just like Turks, Armenians, too, have migrated from somewhere, even if several thousand years earlier than newly-popped up Turks.

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78. Hi Gor, Thank you for the explanation.  I as well have never heard that Armenians came from Mesopotamia. It was the Mitranis.  Of course we are the indigenous nation of the Armenian Plateau and have amalgamated with the Urartu tribes.  The Turks say many things; but history knows it that they came a 1000 years ago from the Mongolian stepes into Armenia and the Hellene territories.

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79.  Anadolu, During the CUP there was one brilliant Armenian statetsman in the Turkish parliament, and his name was Krikor Zohrab.  He was a great orator and respected by everyone in the parliament as he was an eloquent speaker and thought the Turkish people great many things as deputy in the Turkish parliament; but even that didn’t make him immune to be deported with the 300 Armenian intellectuals from Istanbul.  He was taken to Diyarbekir and killed on June 3, 1915.

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80. Gor…you might want to factor in Armenian legend, which says that Hayk came from the south, after he was expelled by Bel (perhaps, Baal?). This has yet to be disproven, but if true, I suspect this legend is one of creation and stretches back into the realm of human prehistory. It has now been shown, with the oldest shoe and oldest wine vats, that even at 5-6 thousand years ago, Armenians were cultivating grapes and tanning leather, which are two very sophisticated technologies. We also know that the petroglyphs at Metsamor have been dated to at least 10,000 years ago, but perhaps sa much as 40,000.

    And yes, while several Byzantine emperors were of Armenian origin, so were many Ottoman sultans, who always had non-Turkish mothers…often Armenian, or Greek, or Circassian. This is a known fact. So, quite a bit of Armenian blood ran thru the veins of those living in the Topkapi and Dolmabache palaces   And, just to put icing on the cake, the head eunuch who protected the harem…the aghassi…was always a super protective and loyal Armenian.  

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81. Having non-Turk mothers, as in the case of some Ottoman Sultans, pales in comparison with being 100% Armenian, as in the case of some Byzantine Emperors (e.g. Leo V, known as ‘The Armenian’). I only know that Bloody Assassin Abdulhamid II might have had an Armenian mother. Who are other Ottoman Sultans so that we might say that ‘quite a bit of Armenian blood’ ran thru the veins of those living in the Topkapi and Dolmabache palaces? Likewise, eunuchs protecting Turkish harems (big deal!) pale in comparison with army commanders, generals, and court merchants that Armenians produced in Byzantine Greece.

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82. It is interesting that individuals that try to convince other Armenians of the supposed benefits of the Ottoman Turk rule over Armenians, consider it a high achievement for Armenians that head eunuchs  were super protective, were loyal, and drum roll please – were always Armenian. Apparently in the twisted Turkophile universe this is considered some kind of high achievement for an Armenian. What is next, that the most famous harem madam was also Armenian ?
     
     
    It would also be interesting to juxtapose the list of famous, such as they are, Armenians under Turk Ottoman rule with  that of Armenians of high achievement under Russian Tsarist rule, and thence under Soviet/Russian rule: World famous Admirals, Marshalls, Generals, Scientists, Inventors, Painters, Artists, …….
     
     
    The same individuals who glorify the alleged benefits of Ottoman rule over Armenians, never tire in their campaign to convince us of the alleged damage Russians have caused to the Armenian nation and Armenians.

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83. Indeed, Avery.  A Turkophile non-Turk is oftentimes more harmful than a genuine Turk.
     
    P.S.  Just realized that I paraphrased Lenin, who once said: “Russified aliens are always much more Russian than the Russians themselves.”

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84. Seervart Jan, several years ago I happened to meet the Turkish Consulate in his office, Los Angeles California for taking care of their computer systems. I opened the issue of Armenians. His response was  ” everything is because of money,” I repeated myself just make sure he understood me. His response still was the same. You are right. But the problem with Turkish Genocide against Armenian is that they cannot redress Armenians by just paying money. That is why only way Armenians can agree to settle with Turks would be to returne our Wetern Armenia.

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85. Papken jan, The Ittihadist CUPs right after 1908 when they took over the government, the next year they attacked Adana.  Why did they attack and had the Armenian people of Adana annihilated?  Because Adana was the most richest community within the Turkish Republic.  That’s why the Ittihadists right away attacked Adana, for their riches and for their money.  The reason of the Armenian Genocide with the bloodsucking bloodthirsty hands of the Ittihadists was for money.

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86. Papken, Yes of course I more than agree with you.  The Turks must pay the blood money of our 2 million martyrs that they atrociously and mercilessly annihilated with the return of our anscestral homeland.  Reparations must be paid in full by the Turkish government with our Western Armenian Highlands.  We want reparations in the form of our Kars, Ardahan, Ararad Mountain, Erzerum, Erzinga, Van, Sassun, Moush, Bingoel, Palu, Kharpert and Dikranagerd.

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87. Anadolu
    I feel that your initial condescending remarks on the lost Armenian churches and schools are out of place. You wrote: why was it then called “ottoman empire” and not “armenian increased numbers of churches and schools empire?” Don’t you know that the Armenians lost all these churches and schools in spite of the solemn promise in the decision of  deportation of may 27, 1915, that Armenian property would be respected?
    Regarding the arrests of april 24, 1915: As far as I know  it is claimed that the arrests on april 24, 1915, concerned  political leaders that the ittihadists wanted ut of the way as a potential illoyal group. If this was so their action is in line with much of the military thinking at the time and later (the US interned all Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbour) But here the analogy stops. What happened to these arrested Armenians later?  Kemal Cicek, the Turkish association of historians, claims that the arrested were  only were terrorists. In the paper of his that I have access to however he only names one, Komitas, thecomposer,  and Cicek claims he was a terrorist. Komitas was released, by the way. Obviously, the text of Cicek is very unsatisfactory and betrays the problems Turks have with encountering their past. On the other hand, it seems that all the arrested were not killed. Grigoris Balakian in the “Armenian Golgotha” provides the names of 131 Armenians who were arrested on april 24, based on the information he collected. Out of these 48 survived and 12 more returned to Istanbul, from where some of them were able to flee to country, and some simply stayed as part of the Istanbul Armenians who never were deported and survived the whole war. – But this is only a small part of the total picture. Armenian deportees were not fed, were massacred in thousands and tens of thousands, and died in the numbers of hundreds of thousands, if not more. Moreover, in spite of lots of constant reports sent to the authorities about massacres, those who massacred were hardly ever brought to justice. I can only find a handful examples of Muslims punished for atrocities against Armenians. What does this tell about the attitude and possible intentions of the government? This is is not a rhetorical question on my part. How do you interpret this, Anadolu?
        

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88. I don’t know of any moslem dominated country on this planet that treats christians as equals. Could someone enlighten me?

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89. The aftermath of 1915, into the post-1923 era, actually might tell us even more about the true intentions of the CUP…it was murder and theft, on a grand, unimaginable scale…and, it continued to put fear into the Armenians of Turkey for meny, many years.  The state appropirated all abandonned Armenian properties, handed them over to CUP and Ataturk loyalists and worked very hard to hide its actions, not only from its own population, but from international observers, as well. In their minds, this must be the perfect crime….and, there are lots of accomplices…including the US, the UK and others.

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90. You are correct in stating that Darwin jan.. i have not encountered any Muslim countries treating Christians as equals either.. on the contrary, they look down and simply void anyone who is not Muslim.. So i would love to be enlightened as well..

    Ragnar-if i did not know you personall and up close, i would say you may be leaning on our side.. even though your post to Anadolu was informative to him; i still don’t feel you are on the side of the truth…thank you nonetheless.. however a correction.. there were 2 million if not more innocent Armenians who were deported, murdered, raped and killed vs thousands upon thousands…  

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91. Gayane; That is why we must build those churches in Karabakh. In Turkey, just about the only vestige of our homeland that wasn’t covered up were our churches. Every Armenian on this planet sould understand that should Karabakh fall to Azerbaijan, another genocide will follow. I’ve lost count as to how many genocides we’ve suffered but I would say we’re well into double figures. The original home of the Armenians was in Nakichevan and thanks to ther Azerbaijanis all we have to show for it are a pile of broken cemetery stones.  

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92. Gayane, let us not repeat our old discussions. For me it was natural to adress Anadolu since I feel he was onesided and because am seeking discussions with Turks or people upholding “the Turkish point of view”, not only with Armenians. But let me repeat one question which I have asked before. Why is so imperative to classify me as ONE OF US, rather than ONE OF THEM? Why not simply listen to arguments and make  up your mind? Second question: how will you find out anything about where I belong except by judging my opinions? third: havent you in your personal life come across people who partly agree, partly diagree with you? You revert again and again to the question of WHAT SIDE IS RAGNAR ON. Can this be an indication that you are not fully aware of the complexities of social life? Or do you think that the particular characteristics of the Armenian cause makes this question so pressing? Yes, maybe it is the last point. The feeling of betrayal and new betrayals are common to many Armenians, I believe. I am sorry for this.

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93. No one is glorifying anything, but your and my ancestors played a huge rold in the functioning of the Ottoman Empire, whether you like it or not, from the very top to the very bottom of the social ladder. you may not find it appealing, but it’s the truth. I say this to underscore Armenian ownership in the Ottoman Empire, not to denigrate it.  This is what you are trying to recapture, isn’t it?  If it belonged to us then, it makes no sense to trash it. When you compare how people were living in other societies around the world at that time in history, Armenians were actually doing quite well. Most people on earth lived as slaves or serfs, and did not even own land. THe Armenian case is totally different, and in fact, was better than the vast numbers of Slavs, Chinese, Africans and native Americans who were, in fact, slaves…living and dying in chains…for hundreds of years. Even with all its faults, of which there were many, the Ottoman Empire was better for Armenians than any of those other societies for their subjects and conquered peoples. As a result, Armenians were able to make significant and historic contributions that not only improved overall society, but their own place in it. Of course, by today’s standards of freedom it seems backward and oppressive, but when compared with the life of a serf in Russia or China…it was vastly different.  

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94. this one for the Turkophile agents who, while constantly digging up dirt on Armenia on these pages, conveniently ignore the filth that’s bubbling just below the surface in Turkey.

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n.php?n=turkish-athlete-claims-she-was-hit-for-wearing-shorts-on-public-bus-2011-08-09

    this is how the allegedly tolerant Turks treat even one of their own co-religionists. 
    and this is in Constantinople (aka Istanbul) an arguably Europeanized city.
    as I have said before: the Kemalist experiment has  ended in failure.

    Turks are reverting to their core Islamic roots. Interesting times a’coming.

     

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95. Ragnar.. i really did not want on this path again but i have no choice but to repeat myself.. You know alot how i see you as a whole …and of course I am going to brng the past because the present has not changed since the past… so until there is change everything else remains the same my Norwegian friend…in addition, we had a long discussions on previous topics in the past…

    Here is the problem: anyone can have their own ways of thinking and i don’t have to agree with everyone and vice versa.. the only difference about your argument in regards to ” I don’t have to agree with you on everything” is this::::…… YOU CAN”T BE IN THE MIDDLE when it on ARmenian Genocide.. You CANT play both sides Ragnar which is what you are doing SIR…so stop this diplomatic BS … We are not dealing wth two major sports teams where you can change sides and cheer for one then change your mind and cheer for the other whenever you feel like….you can NOT be WISHY WASHY on this issue Ragnar…   We are dealing with murderes and murdered….. you can’t be friends with the murderer state and then turn around and pretend to be friends with the nation that almost got wiped out.. THAT AIN”T GOING TO FLY .. and that is what you are trying to do and it frustrates me out of my wits… it is not about trying to have a conversation with TUrks and trying to understand both sides.. THAT HAS BEEN ESTABLISHED ALREADY.. and you working in TUrkey and writing your research paper gave you plenty of information about Turks and TUrkey I am sure… so i don’t get your diplomatic approach to Why not simply listen to arguments and make  up your mind  … WE already know what happened.. it is YOU who needs to make up your mind and stick to it.. and so far I have not seen it.. unless that happened and we don’t know about it…

    Can this be an indication that you are not fully aware of the complexities of social life– I not even even in my later 30s Ragnar so no i may not know all the complesities of social life… however, what i DO KNOW is this:.. a man at your age would appreciate the difference between siding with justice vs Turkish denialists who dine and wine you and of course throw the green paper at you.. the mighty dollar….sorry if this hurts but that is what I believe…

    Have a nice day sir..

    Gayane  

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96. Avery….do you mean to say you’d prefer hard boiled Kemalism, with its deep CUP and military undertones to something else?  Be careful what you wish for…because the republican period was anything but wonderful for Armenians, or any other minority in Turkey.   

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97. Avery jan… thanks for the link… I read the story…can’t say I am surprised…

    Interesting time a’coming indeed…

    Gayane  

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98. here is one more (via Asbarez.com): Turks becoming more and more tolerant every day.

    http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2011/08/05/feature-03

    take the time to read the survey in detail and contemplate the percentages: it’s very illuminating.
    this is what would have happened to Artsakhtsi had they lost, and will happen to Artsakhtsi if Azeris ever gain the upper hand. This is why Nakhichevan went from majority Armenian  to 0% Armenian.
     

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99. Gayane, I did not want to go this path again since I never even got you to refer my points of view correctly. But I will repeat once more. Of course the case of the murders and the murdered are central. In addition the case of authorities who, as far as I can ascertain, almost never prosecuted those who committed massacres against your ancestors. This is terrible and unpardonable. And I have really used lot of time to tell Turks that they must relate honestly to their own past. But I stopped answering your posts because in a way you are not doing dialogue, you are doing a monologue. Certainly you cannot negotiate truth with money or negotiate morality with money. By the way my whole professional life I have worked for state money and always I have been criticizing my government regarding my field: immigration and refugees. Maybe you experience me as wishy washy beause you never cared to listen to what I actually say? Isnt that making it easy for yourself. But, my friend Gayane, maybe I am mistaken, both in my views,(in some aspects, I cannot imagine that I will ever change my opinion completely in your direction, as I know you) and maybe I am mistaken in my belief that you are unable to refer my views correctly. We should admit the possibility of mistake, shouldnt we? Only the future can show if we are willing to go on exchanging words.  

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100. Avery….so once again, do you prefer to see the Kemalists or the Erdoganists running Turkey? I’m curious. Neither is optimal, of course, but I think most people would opt for the lesser of two evils.

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101. Karekin, you again? Then lend me you ears.
      
     Re: “[…]your and my ancestors played a huge role in the functioning of the Ottoman Empire.”
     —-As if the Ottoman empire was an Eldorado land that all the native peoples who inhabited the Balkans, Asia Minor, Middle East, and the Arabian Peninsula were longing for millennia for the lousy Seljuk nomads and filthy Ottoman Turks to come invade and colonize them. Underscoring Armenian “ownership” in the Ottoman Empire, if it is your intention, creates a delusion that there was no millennia-old Armenian history or Armenian statehood before Armenia’s colonization by the Ottomans. It also creates a delusion that Armenians actually “owned” something in the Ottoman empire. Aside from small- and medium-size businesses whose revenues were unbearably taxed more than those of the Turks and apart of religious and educational facilities that functioned under restrictions, Armenians owned practically nothing in the Ottoman empire: no representation in the legislature, no representation in the government, no legal protection, no judiciary protection, no physical protection against the murderer government, no security against the maraudering Muslim bands in the rural areas, etc.
      
     Re: “When you compare how people were living in other societies at that time in history, Armenians were actually doing quite well. Most people on earth lived as slaves or serfs, and did not even own land. The Armenian case was better than the vast numbers of Slavs, Chinese, Africans and Native Americans who were, in fact, slaves.”
     —-If we imagine for a split second that “Armenians were doing quite well” despite the lack of physical protection and basic civil rights, it was the result of their wit, industriousness, and circumspection, not the genial treatment by Muslim Turks. All of the colonized peoples in the Ottoman empire—Slavs, Arabs, Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians—were, in fact, slaves and serfs. You cannot be anything other than slave or serf when you are colonized. As simple as that. The situation of Armenians was even worse, because not only were they annihilated as a race, but their historic lands were stolen as well. Although I mourn hundreds of thousands of Christians that were savagely slaughtered by the Turks, at least the bulk of the population was able to survive and major parts of their historic homelands remained intact. Since you so like to parrot (or advance?) the Turkish denialist clichés about the wonderful life of Armenians in the Ottoman empire and make comparisons with Native Americans, then compare the terrible fate Armenians have suffered with that of other nations. It is obvious to everyone, except for you as a Turkish lickspittle, that at least in almost all other cases, the bulk of the population survived and the bulk of their historic homelands remained intact.
      
     Re: “Even with all its faults, the Ottoman Empire was better for Armenians than any of those other societies for their subjects. As a result, Armenians were able to make significant and historic contributions that not only improved overall society, but their own place in it.”
     —-Dead wrong. Even an uneducated look at how imperial Russian and Soviet empires treated Armenians, what basic civil rights were endowed to them, and what major contributions Armenians were able to make in those years, proves that you’re either a complete dilettante or a blind-folded Turkophile.
      
     Re: “Of course, by today’s standards of freedom it seems backward and oppressive”
     —-Thank you for admitting the obvious.
      
     Re: “but when compared with the life of a serf in Russia or China…it was vastly different.”
     —-Of course, it was different. Russian and Chinese serfs, while enduring sufferings and physical abuses, largely preserved their physical existence and on their own homelands.

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102. Ragnar, rather than engaging in an ongoing critique of others’ ability to dialogue (regardless of how legitimate the critique), could you simply state what you believe is necessary to advance justice in this conflict between Armenians and Turkey.  Could we go from there?

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103. I’ll answer your question indirectly, Karekin.
      
      
     The reason I post the links that show the underside of Turkey is to prove that you have malice in your heart towards Armenia.
     In all of your posts I have yet to see one negative regardingTurkey. Even one or two mild rebukes are swamped by an avalanche of praise.
     At the same time, you never lose an opportunity to publicize bad news aboutArmenia, juxtaposed with never ending praise forTurkey.
     I have yet to see a positive sentiment from you towards Armenia. You even manage to put a negative spin on undeniably positive developments.
     That tells me all I need to know. Your posting  behaviour is your calling card. Occasional posts that do not deny the AG show that you are smarter than the other Agents. Read my fictional 30-point MIT guideline in this thread: I know most of the tricks of the trade of  enemy  Agents.
     I graduated with honors from the Armenian KGB’s (at the time) Directorate of Psychological Warfare, Psyops & Counter-Psyops, Disinformation & Counter-Disinformation School of Advanced Studies.
      
      
     Another reason I post negative news about Turkey is to counter you incessant attempts to divide and demoralize our side.
     I want our people to see the rot that exists in Turkey  just below the artificial sheen created by Turks, their friends, and their Agents.
     Many people read  sensationalist headlines  about Armenia and reach fantastic and false conclusions.
     The Forbes disinformation peace is a classic: I demonstrated in this thread, with hard Per-Capita-GDP numbers, obtained from CIA public site,  that their conclusion was bogus and rank disinformation. Why did they publish it ? A psyops campaign against Armenia. I have lived in the US long enough to know that most of mainstream media here serves the interests of the American version of the deep state. Demoralize and divide the world, so that Big Money boys can loot it’s wealth with no resistance and no accounting.
      
     Պղտոր ջրերում ձուկ որսալ:
      
     I know that on a piece of paper 1+1=2. However, human history is full of small groups of men and women overcoming impossible odds with belief in themselves and unshakable determination.
     When a man’s spirit is broken, the rest of body goes with it.
     When a man’s spirit soars, the body follows.
      
     Anyone that doubts this,  I invite to find and carefully study pictures of Astrasktsi warriors in 1988, 1989, 1990,… the years before the tide turned in their/our favour around 1993-1994. Study their faces: there is no hint of fear, or panic, or dejection, or demoralization. There is only calm, almost serene, determination. It is almost eerie. How can these guys be this fearless ? What kind of superhuman genes were planted in these ordinary looking men ? To appreciate what you are looking at, understand this: what is not shown in the pictures are masses of Azeri troops and tanks a couple of clicks away. Yet these guys are standing around and planning as if it’s a bunch of kids with toy guns that are over the hill. As if they are discussing a turkey  shoot (bird hunting). That’s the kind of self confidence and belief in ourselves that we need to propagate to all our people.
      
      
     Back to what I want forTurkey:
      
     I want Turkey to shatter into 3-4 pieces, so it no longer presents a clear and present danger to my homeland and my people, my brothers and sisters that are trying to live there in peace.
     So that  Turkey is no longer an existential threat to Armenia & Artsakh.
     I would very much like for the Turks to go back to their own homeland at the base of the Altai Mountains.
     They don’t belong in the Armenian Highlands. They don’t belong where they are sitting now.
     Their arrival has been an unmitigated disaster for the region at large and Humanity.
     They have done nothing but bring death, destruction and misery to the indigenous people.
     Even today, they go around threatening, threatening to invade, or invading their neighbors. It never stops.
      
      
     Ex: after having invaded the Greek Island of Cyprus 500 years ago and populating it with Turks, after invading it again in 1974, they are now threatening Cyprus again for daring to explore for oil and gas in their own (Cyprus) territorial waters.
      
      
     I realize of course  that 50 million or so ethnic Turks living in Turkey today cannot just vanish into thin air.
     However, a Turkey broken up into 3-4 pieces can be contained and can no longer present a threat to its neighbors, and most importantly to Armenia.
      
      
     So I don’t really care if it ends up being Islamist, Kemalist, Fascist, Communist, whatever.
     As long as it breaks up into manageable pieces. I wish no death or misery to the ordinary Turks and other ethnicities, and wish the breakup takes place with no harm to non-combatants.
      
      
     And contrary to your propaganda, the signs are there that the fissures inherent in that artificially created country are opening up wider.
     The signs are similar to the former Soviet Union. A few years before it disintegrated, the external image of it was a solid monolith, impervious to any force.
     It was an artificial country held together with duct tape: there was no inherent national cohesion, similar to say Germany or France, and of course Armenia.
     Different nationalities were being forced to live together at gunpoint. Same as in the Ottoman Empire. Same as in today’sTurkey.
      
      
     The 25-30 Million Kurds and Zaza can no longer be contained. The more rights they get the more they’ll demand. Independence is only a matter of time. In this day and age suppression will not work either. And of course they are too numerous to be wiped out like Armenians were.
     Once Kurds and Zaza break free, the breakup of Turkey will pick up pace.
     Turkey has many, many enemies. When they go down like the Ottoman Empire, the long knives will come out to carve it up.
     And there are no Germans and Bolsheviks to save the Turks this time from ending up with a rump state.

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104. Bravo, Avery.  You are a true patriot.

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105. It’s just a matter of time when Turkey will be carved up between Kurdistan, Greece, and Wilsonian Armenia. I have no doubt in my mind that this scenario is already at play. Turks benefitted inexcusably long from invading, looting, and mass murdering more civilized, cultured, and nobler peoples inhabiting Asia Minor, the Balkans, and the Armenian Plateau. Time to pick up the tab.

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106. Boyajian:       I think we’ve known Ragnar long enough to foretell what he’d have to say even without having to gaze into a crystal ball. I’d venture into predicting his answer or a variation thereof. It was a colossal crime on the part of the Turks (note: no denomination of the crime). The result of forced deportations and mass murders was genocidal, but the genocidal intent of the central Ottoman Turkish authorities is hard to prove. Armenians need to engage in a dialogue with the Turks so Turks can admit the guilt (for what, if the crime is not denominated?) and apologize. Now let me extrapolate this possible response or a variation thereof on the recent killings on the Utoya Island. It was a colossal crime (omitting the name, which is, clearly a heinous terrorist act). The result was homicidal but the intent of Anders Behring Brevik is hard to prove. Instead of taking him to custody, the police and the Norwegian society needed to conduct dialogue with him so he could come forward and apologize for the crime (again, with no specific name). Such a standpoint is just another variation of postponing justice for Armenians, Can we ever imagine that as a result of a dialogue with largely brainwashed Turks on the ratio 10:70 (in millions, representing roughly the population of Armenians and Turks), and knowing too well that no criminal—on the state or individual level—will ever accept the guilt voluntarily, Turks can ever admit the guilt which will expose their nation as the nation of barbarians: mass murderers, torturers, mutilators, children-killers, rapists, looters, and thieves?! This is just another variation at delaying justice for us.

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107. mjm, it’s always good to read your comments.  You’re right of course, based on Ragnar’s previous writing, that he is likely to spare Turkey it’s full responsibility.  But let’s see if he offers anything new.

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108. MJM– We truly missed you…Always a pleasure reading your comments…Well said…:)

     Boyajian jan– Truly missed you too…Can’t get enough of your comments…Well said..:)

     Avery jan– Excellent post… xosq chunem aselu.. got goosebumps.. and I am with you 110%.. 

     It is like the good ol’ days when all three of us where in one of the longest discussion in the AW history involving Ragnar N… to be honest with you, he has not changed and I knew exactly what he would come back with.. he is singing his old song… no surprise there…     

     Ragnar-  actually it is more like YOU are having a monologue with us than me with you.. I don’t see any diologue between you and us.. do you???    oh and we know very well what you won’t agree with me on… according to you there was no Genocide… and I say there WAS a Genocide.. well until you make up your mind whether or not it was a Genocide you will remain the same culprit and denialist… sorry if that hurts…

     Gayane

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109. Boyajian, yes, its a pleasure that you are with us. I was afraid that you would disappear after I told that I am working on a book. But Anahit I have not seen except that there was a “Anahit” in Daily Zaman some time ago. The new thing of course is that I write on a book and I want to say something about my dialogue with Turks and Armenians. Ideally I would like to cite “mjm”, “boyajian”, “gayane” and certainly “Karekin”, but as I said I would ask for your special permission to do so, even if you all have assumed names (maybe you some day will have the self confidence to use your real names….).
     Yes, Gayane maybe I engage in a monologue, too! I have certain ideas that I see no reason to change, I have found no good arguments. But I have other ideas that are changing or being more nuanced. But then of course you have some definite formulas that you want me to adhere to. I am not sure that I will ever comply with your wish. But surely you have met sometimes with people with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?
     Mjm, good to hear from you. Yes, you refer my opinions  reasonably  correctly. No,I am not  certain about what crime, even if we restrict ourself to Talaat’s “confession”. You know his posthumous autobiography in which he confesses that he for political reasons – not to antagonize Turks and Kurds who hated Armenians – abstained from prosecuting people who massacred Armenian deportees. If this is a true picture of his intentions, which it maybe is not. To my mind he here confesses to a crime. Regarding WHAT CRIME, this is a decision for which I have no competence. I am now reading both the Rwandan judgements and some judgements in the Srebrenitsa case, and this is complex. But I feel you want me to say: “Yes, it was genocide” without any qualifications. This is more like saying “I believe in God, but I know very little about him. It is a BELIEF…”. The alternatives are crime against humanity, genocide, war crime, and all divided into “crime”, “abetting crime”, “not hindering crime”, and so on.
     I participated here because I did not like Anadolu’s way of reasoning, so I answered. But if we can find something sensible to discuss, I am always interested.

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110. That’s it, Boyajian.        I mean Ragnar’s response. If through lengthy dialogues with us the guy still sticks to his guns, himself being a Nordmenn not a Turk, what could we expect from his proposed ‘dialogue’ with 70 mln brainwashed Turks representing a murderer unrepentant state about some ‘crime’ and some ‘intent’ or the lack of thereof or some apology for the Turkish crime against humanity (Allies’ term in 1915) and genocide (Lemkin’s and subsequently international term after 1943) that even a Nordmenn shies to admit?

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111. Ehhhh… Ragnar.. same ol’ Ragnar.. nothing has changed and you wonder why we can’t have a dialogue with you?

     You said:   maybe you some day will have the self confidence to use your real names….).
      For your own information.. how do you know if the posters here don’t use their real names, or their initials or abbreviations of their names.. why are you looking to rip some benefits from us for your book? I would not want to be part of your book… knowing you are trying tint and come up with your scientific reasons when you have no connection whats so ever with such subject..this matter is more emotional and common sense than scientific.. but you already know that….

     I have certain ideas that I see no reason to change, I have found no good arguments— This one sentence tells me great deal.. that YOU definintely were and are engaged in monologue because my friend Avery and Boyajian gave you PLENTY of GOOD ARGUMENTS SIR .. PLENTY.. no denial there but yet you still play your old flute….

     But then of course you have some definite formulas that you want me to adhere to. I am not sure that I will ever comply with your wish. But surely you have met sometimes with people with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?  Yes of course I have a formula just like everyone here on these discussions… and the formula is, you ready? i am sure you NEVER heard of this or read about it.. but i am going to tell you again and again and again and again and again……

     Ottoman Empire= Genocide against my people, Armenians…. 1909-1924= Attempted and half way succeeded of the Annihiliation and Murder of my nation, the Armenian Nation   1915=OTTOMAN TURKISH GENOCIDE OF THE WESTERN AND EASTERN ARMENIANS…   THis is the formula that WILL NEVER CHANGE and as I said numerous times in my past posts.. YOU CAN”T BE IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD RagnarR.. YOu have to either AGREE OR DISAGREE.. so stop injecting this BS ” But surely you have met sometimes with people” with whom you agree in some, and disagree in some?  … This statement of yours does not imply to what we are discussing… There is no ” THERE WAS KIND OF GENOCIDE“…. and that is exactly what you are saying..  

     Gayane
      

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112. True to form.
      
     Ragnar you do not have permission to quote my comments. Not because you and I disagree, but because I view you as someone who has a preconceived agenda he is intent on supporting against any evidence to the contrary.  You long ago informed us that you were writing a book.  Your recent reassertion of this did not scare me away.   If I perceived you to be a fair and honest truth-seeker, I would gladly continue discourse, but since this is not the case, I simply feel we have gone as far as we two can go.
      
     You long ago informed us that you were writing a book.  Your recent assertion of this did not scare me away.  I do not hide behind aliases, I simply choose my confidants and associations judiciously.

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113. Likewise, Ragnar.    You do not have permission to quote my comments.

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114. No, I will not cite. About your comments, I get curious. But we have been through it so many times. Do you take the fact that I havent changed my mind as a sign that I am not an honest truth seeker, Boyajian? Is that fair? 

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115. My name, to my relief, was not mentioned in the list of potential referral sources that Ragnar Naess intends to use in his upcoming book, but just to be on the safe side…  Ragnar, I join others in not granting permission to use any of my viewpoints in AW in case you intended to do so.
      
     P.S.   BTW, Gor is my real, not pen, name.

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116. Ragnar.. Here is some information from an article on AW written by Kurdish writer on why the Genocide happened… link is also provided for your information..and you tell me there is no scientific reasons for the Genocide to happen.. laughablet to say the least..

     http://armenianweekly.com/2011/08/11/gunaysu-denial/
     Just to give a few statistics to remind the readers what the extermination of Christian trade and business people meant for the national economy of the Ottoman Empire, I will once more quote from Confiscation and Destruction: “Commerce in the interior was heavily Armenian in the east (and Greek in the west), even though Turks were also involved in domestic trade. For example, in 1884, of the 110 merchants in the north-eastern provincial capital Trabzon, for domestic and international trade a vital port city, 40 were Armenian and 42, Pontic Greek. According to a 1913 study on Anatolia by the Armenian parliamentarian and writer Krikor Zohrab, of the 166 importers, 141 were Armenians and 13, Turks. Of the 9,800 shopowners and craftsmen, 6,800 were Armenians and 2,550, Turks; of the 150 exporters, 127 were Armenians and 23 Turks; of the 153 industrialists, 130 were Armenians and 20 were Turks; and finally, of the 37 bankers, 32 were Armenians. In the six eastern provinces, 32 Armenian moneylenders plied their trade versus only 5 Turkish ones. On the eve of the genocide, in early 1915, of the 264 Ottoman industrial establishments, only 42 belonged to Muslims and 172 to non-Muslims.” 5
     These figures alone indicate the extent of economic destruction willfully carried out by the Ottoman government, which put the country’s development back a century—a fact overlooked by the heated antagonists of imperialism in Turkey who are, of course, against nationalism but are unable to look and see beyond the horizon of Turkish nationalism.

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117. Avery jan, Your post above to Karekin it’s not just a good post but an EXCELLENT ONE!!!!  You spoke exactly my heart and soul.  Throughout my life I have been saying the same things you said it above that we have to give heart, inspiration to our people for survival, for fighting for our country and for our lands that has been homelands for Armenians from time immemorial.  Do you know why those freedom fighters in Artsakh had a serene and content look on them?  Because they were fighting for a great cause; because they fought with their hearts and souls for their sweet lands that belonged to them as a legacy left from their forefathers.  They had that unafraid look upon themselves, because of national pride, because of a great cause (the cause of survival as a nation, for their wives pride, and for their children, the future generation of Armenians).  And because they knew their history very well and because they fought for what the enemy the Turks and the Azeris did to them, to their wives, their sisters and their children.  Unlike the Turks and the Azeris that gobbled other peoples’ lands *our lands* that didn’t belong to them, those lands were not theirs to begin with and they have no real cause to fight except for greed, for stealing, for looting and for annihilating for the sake of annihilation.  For us however, our lands is like “Neshxar”, the same way our Ararad Mountain is, «Մեր հողերէը Նշխարի նման սուրբ են մեզ համար, Մեր սուրբ Արարատ լեռան պէս».  Those freedom fighters fought to die happily; but for a great cause, that is the cause of both survival and for the right of their anscestral homeland, for the future of their children and the generations that will come after them, after us.  When you have a good cause and a reason to die, then you fight with all your might, with all your heart, and you are no longer afraid of dying to give your life for your rights, the right of your own homeland Armenia for Armenians.  That is why I more than agree with you as I have always thought out and said it to my compatriots all my life whenever I could, that we always have to give great heart and encouragement to our people and never discourage them of ourselves, of our great history and for what we have and still stand for.  NEVER.  Otherwise that person is not our friend but our enemy, and Karekin is a Turkophile and not the friend of Armenians.  I felt it and I knew that right away and the same time you did also.

     As for your second wish about Turkey my friend, you know that song, «Մօտ է գարունը շուտով կը բացուի»:

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118. Gayane, with all due respect I humbly suggest that you suspend this comment exchange business with Ragnar. I hoped that the ugly terrorist act in his homeland would somewhat shift his mind towards more understanding of our stance on the genocide and the premeditated intent of the murderers. I’m sorry to say it didn’t. Imagine if there were no video shootings of Anders Behring Brevik’s assassinations and no “2083: A European Declaration of Independence’ that he’d authored, what would the police determine after arrival at the site? Ragnar’s position is, unfortunately, a variation of Turkish denialism. He won’t change even if the Storting adopts recognition of the Armenian Genocide on behalf of the people of Norway. We’d better concentrate our efforts on more important events, activities, and individuals. Unless you still have hope, of course…

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119. Ragnar, it may or may not be fair.  Time will tell.  You are free to believe what you like.  I simply find it inconceivable that we could look at the same body of evidence and not conclude that a barbaric genocide was committed by Turks against Armenians that remains unpunished.   Turkey teaches false history to its students, carries racist laws on its books and fosters a distorted image of Armenians to its public.  These are present day continuations of the xenophobic mindset that fueled the genocide in the first place.   Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.  The fact that the powers that be find it convenient to look the other way for 96 years doesn’t change the magnitude of the original crime, nor Turkey’s culpability for it.  The fact that you persist in your campaign to spare Turkey the full weight of this crime, is suspect to me, and suggests that you are not fair, nor honest in your efforts.  No offense intended; just my opinion. 
      
      

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120. thank you Seervart for the kind words. 

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121. thanks Boyajian.
     thanks  gayane

     As I have said before: It is my pleasure.

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122. Dear Avery, Thanks to you it warms our hearts to have such a brilliant and a patriotic Armenian to have amongst us and when we need it most.  Thanks for being you and thanks for being here!

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123. Mjm jan.. I guess I did have hope…but.. I hate to say this but you are right.. Ragnar in his senior years continues his persuit of “Turkey good”  “Armenians are fool of hot air.. because who said there was Genocide”… Basically there is a saying in Armenian.. ” Inqa ira Eshna Qshum”…. I understand your point and I will not entertain Ragnar’s BS… He has plenty of factual data in detail to change his twisted mind.. It is up to him if he wants to step into the righteousness side of things…

     Gor jan- good idea..:) You are one of the most valuable contributor and i am sure Ragnar will get a sniff of that as well sooner or later…

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124. Boyajian,
     as you maybe have noticed I have respect for your judgements , willingness to debate and willingsness to look at your own ideas with a critical perspective. However, sometimes you lapse into facile declarations – as we all do, myself included. However, I cannot take a “time will show” statement as relevant here. You said that you doubted that I was a sincere truth seeker, but that is something relating to me today, not for the future to show. I does not make sense. Of course I am hurt by this, of course I will wonder if it is true, as we all should. As one of you said, it is not easy to admit something which you have used years of your life to disprove. — About a barbaric genocide – we have been through this before. When I use loaded expressions like “racism” or “genocide” or “democracy”, I always add some qualifications. This is how we distinguish rhetorics from informed statements. In my drafts I very clearly say that genocide was perpetrated by the Turks against the Armenians, but this kind of statement never stands alone. (This by the way is why I feel you are doing monologue, Gayane, because you end up with the word “genocode” never botheri9ng to cite me on my qualifications. You make it too easy for yourself) If  you are doing a therapy you always ask for concretizations and clarifications. “Genocide” is a juridical term, a research term and a political term. I never say yes to slogans.  – And then it is very strange that  you should take my qualifications as a sign of untrustworthyness. In a way you tie yourself to the slogans, not the analysis. But I dismiss this as a facile expression on your part, maybe out of a feeling of loyalty to your fellow Armenians. That you do facile lapses is evident to me because you applaud Avery’s idea of the need to partition Turkey, while you expressed the wish to discuss with honest Turks when we discussed the demonstration the youths made in the Sourp Khatch. But if you and Avery broadcast your ideas on the partition of Turkey, and you get support among Armenians you can say good by to this kind of discussion with honest Turks. This was a lapse, wasnt it? I cannot interpret it in another way. 

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125. can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism. 

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126. “Genocide” is a juridical term, a research term and a political term. I never say yes to slogans.”
      
     ‘Genocide’ is not a slogan. Does it remotely resemble Marx’s “Proletarians of all countries, unite!”? It is first and foremost a linguistic term coined to depict the essence of a deliberate killing of a race, which came about as a result of serious academic research. In 1933 Raphael Lemkin wrote a proposal on the ‘crime of barbarity’ to be presented to the Legal Council of the League of Nations in Madrid. This was his first formal attempt at creating a law against what he would later call ‘genocide’. The concept originated in his youth when he first heard of the Ottoman government’s mass killings of its Christian Armenian population during the WWI. Lemkin’s idea of genocide then developed from a linguistic term onto a definition of an offense against humanity and international law.

     “I became interested in genocide because it happened so many times. First to the Armenians, then after the Armenians, Hitler took action.” – Raphael Lemkin
      

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127. Ragnar, your criticism of me has validity: I am loyal to other Armenians and look disparagingly on those who would deprive Armenians even further of a long awaited compensation of what they suffered at the hands of Turks. 
     It may appear contradictory when I support those who dream of land reparation from Turkey, while also advocating dialogue with Turks.  To me this is not a lapse.  It comes from a deeply felt wish to ‘rebalance’ and find just resolution for the near annihilation of a people who wanted nothing more than to live with dignity as equals among their neighbors on the land their forefathers tended for thousands of years.  This may sound rhetorical and I may be naive, but I believe that one can hope for the former in the long run, while sincerely pursuing the latter in the present.  Dialogue with Turks is important as an avenue to confront prejudices and misinformation on both sides.  But dialogue alone is not the goal; it is a path along the road to justice.   And justice to me and you is understood quite differently.  That is the crux  of our problem.  I have an emotional investment in this dilemma, while you appear to be engaged in an historical research project.  I wish you luck and enlightenment on your path.
      
     As to this question:  can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism. 
      
     Perhaps this is overly simplistic and won’t satisfy your question, but I am not an historian or researcher, so will put it this way: 
      
     If you steal from me and hurt my family and never apologize or compensate my loss and on top of that deny your guilt and carry out a campaign that implies that I brought it all upon myself, than I will not trust you and will experience your lack of contrition as a potential future threat.  Then, when your cousin begins attacking my family members, and you stand by offering no assistance, only to later advocate for the cousin who attacked us, I will assume you want my complete destruction and to divide the spoils amongst yourself and your cousin.
      
     Finally, Gor has tried to broaden your understanding of the term genocide with his comment above.  I hope you will read it carefully.  Genocide was a term coined by a pioneering humanist amongst us to shed light on a barbaric act and to assist in the prosecution of such acts.  It was not coined simply to apathetically describe an event.

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128. I promised that I will not entertain you and I intend to do so…but to finish my thought….Ragnar.. like I said… you are not someone we can have dialogue with so I will not waste my time and energy to make you understand that you are fake.. no matter how much academic words you throw at us..

     By you using me as a bait for your conspiracy of words is not welcomed sorry.. you know very well that many of us including MJM, Avery, Boyajian and Gor provided you plenty of evidence or qualifications AS YOU put it.. you have enough of evidence to prove your thought process wrong… why you keep insisting on that same old broken radio… you can’t twist things .. you have been exposed already …. There is nothing else I can tell you to make you understand… have a wonderful dialogue with your TUrkish denialists.. I am sure they will love you …..if not already …..but don’t seek dialogue here when you can’t even express a simple fact: GENOCIDE did happen no matter how many qualitifications your Turkish denialists and yourself try to attach to the word… Aint’ going to work Ragnar.. 

     Take Care…

     Gayane     

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129. “Can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.”
      
     I can. For references, do a simple Google search using the key words highlighted in the black face below.
      
     Turkey remains a threat to Armenians because:
      
     (a)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that refuses to establish diplomatic and economic relations with Armenia. Non-establishment of diplomatic and economic relations with a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sign of threat;
     (b)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that imposed a blockade on the movement of people, services, and goods with Armenia. Imposition of a blockade of a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sheer demonstration of a threat;
     (c)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that refuses to open the borders with Armenia. Keeping the borders closed with a neighboring country is by any measure in the international practice a sign of threat;
     (d)Turkey explicitly—militarily, politically, diplomatically, and through an economic blockade—supported its Turkic extension, newly-minted ‘Azerbaijan’, in waging war against Artsakh as in the early 1990s, thus posing a national security threat to Artsakh and Armenia. And continues to support Azerbaijan against Armenia and Artsakh politically, diplomatically, and through an economic blockade;
     (e)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region whose president in the early 1990s made an explicit threat to drop ‘a couple of bombs’ across the border (read: Armenia);
     (f)Turkey occupied almost half of the sovereign UN member-state of Cyprus as a result of an explicit military invasion in 1974 thus posing a threat to broader regional security;
     (g)Turkey violated state borders of the sovereign state of Iraq in the mid-2000s and advanced deep into the Iraqi territory until stopped by the US troops;
     (h)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that now threatens the sovereign state of Syria with a possibility of invasion;
     (i)Turkey continues to suppress and mass murder Kurds and Zaza thus violating human rights and the rights of the minorities;
     (j)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that has problems with virtually all of its neighbors, because of the earlier invasions of the Seljuks, colonization of indigenous native peoples by the Ottomans, and mass physical extermination of millions of native Christians and destruction or Turkification of their civilizational achievements;
     (k)Turkey continues to deny genocides of Greeks, Assyrians, and most heinously, the Armenians thus preventing the country’s transformation into an open society and establishment of good-neighborly relations with the surrounding nation-states;
     (l)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region that kills, imprisons, or deports all those activists who dare to speak the truth about the Armenian genocide;
     (m)Turkey is the only country in the Middle Eastern/Asia Minor/Caucasus region whose neurasthenic prime minister in the 21st century makes racist remarks about the restoring the past glories of the Ottoman empire and an aspiration to be a voice for the Middle Eastern region and the Balkans and Turkic Muslims.

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130. Avery….you’ve proven nothing! I am not writing propaganda, nor am I either antagonistic or showing any ‘malice’ towards Armenia or Armenians. Quite the contrary, if you can read the English language.  However, patting yourself on the back, blathering nationalistic slogans and unrealistic fantasies just so you can get accolades from the peanut gallery do not negate the realities on the ground. Almost every country within a few hundred miles of the Armenian border is in some sort of chaos, no doubt foreign inspired. If, for some reason, there is a conflagration that engulfs the region, the chances that Armenia will emerge either unscathed or intact are rather remote.  That is the real danger looming on the horizon. If you think anyone, whether it’s Turks, or Kurds or Azeris or Georgians or Russians or Americans are going to reach out and help Armenia, think again. None of them are helping now…and under duress, they will become even more unfriendly. So, blather on, but I prefer to stick to reality. 

      

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131. Gor, your answer is invaluable.  I could have never answered so thoroughly! 

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132. Karekin- you have crossed the line.. WHO ARE YOU to call us a peanut gallery??? You better bite your tongue or else you REALLY true colors are bursting out; hence validating Avery’s very well put description of you… yes we already know you are a realist and not a nationalist… you pretty much are worst than a denialist Turk if you ask me.. you are not promoting what is needed Karekin.. the way you are proposing is actually UNREALISTIC.. so i guess you are not really a realist… but a dreamer…

     Gor jan– BRILLIANT.. thank you for the post…

     Boyajian jan– welll thought out comment to Ragnar… 

     Gayane  

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133. re: ‘Avery….you’ve proven nothing! I am not writing propaganda, nor am I either antagonistic or showing any ‘malice’ towards Armenia or Armenians’
      Karekin: I have, you are, you are, and you are.
      
     re: ‘, if you can read the English language’
     I can read and understand the English language well enough to see through the fog of your propaganda.
      
     re: ‘, patting yourself on the back, blathering nationalistic slogans and unrealistic fantasies just so you can get accolades from the peanut gallery do not negate the realities on the ground.’
     None of my blathering has the aim of getting accolades from anyone.
     And when you say ‘peanut gallery’ , whom are you specifically referring to ? Why don’t you list the names  – so that they can stop giving me accolades.
      
      
     The rest of the blathering in your post has been answered multiple times by me and others on these pages.
      
      
     You asked a question above,
      
      [‘Karekin
     August 10, 2011
     Avery….so once again, do you prefer to see the Kemalists or the Erdoganists running Turkey? I’m curious. Neither is optimal, of course, but I think most people would opt for the lesser of two evils.’]
      
      
     And I answered. Your hysterical reaction to a well thought out , reasonable post is telling.

     Reply

134. Karekin,    —-I think the major reason (and I agree there may be others, as Avery alludes to) of your malice towards Armenia and Armenians is of psychological nature. I have no intention nor am I trained to pchycoanalyze you, but you must agree that comments of a poster tell us a bit about his or her character traits. I came to believe that your inner self is hen-hearted, obsequious, and self-depreciating. Hence, your incessant negatives regarding Armenia. In your mind, a smaller state must be subservient to mightier ones. In your mind an oppressed and nearly exterminated people must be hen-hearted in front of the mightier peoples. In your mind, a quest for justice by a smaller nation is an unrealistic fantasy because of the size of a mightier neighbor. These are not the traits of a brave person, I’m sorry to say. I can’t put it better than Avery: “When a man’s spirit is broken, the rest of body goes with it. When a man’s spirit soars, the body follows.” People are often pressured in order to succumb to the wills of mightier individuals or organizations. Although they suffer a lot, whoever manages not to give up, comes out victorious at the end. “First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, and then you win.” – Eternally genius words by Mahatma Gandhi. Give them a thought…

     Reply

135. in my blatherings above, I made mention of  the superhuman demeanor of Armenian Men Warriors of Artsakh. What I did not mention is the secret ingredient.

     from Seervart’s post:

     “… for their wives pride, and for their children, …”

     What was the secret ingredient ? it was the Armenian Women standing 1 meter behind their men with their children.
     With their wives and children right behind them, no Armenian warrior could or would flinch.

     http://laviesouffrante.tumblr.com/post/4936642526/106-year-old-armenian-woman-guarding-her-house

     I have linked the famous picture of the Armenian grandmother with an AK-47.
     Please study her eyes. Soak in the fierce determination to live free.  And then tell me if these people have not earned the right, a thousand times over, to live in peace as Armenians on their ancestral land.
     Thousands of Armenian women in their 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s stood behind their men  with AK-47s and RPGs to take on the invaders when their men fell in battle.

     Is there anything more to be said about our people ?
     (Avery’s one-man-peanut-gallery dispensing unsolicited accolades to Armenian women.) 

     Reply

136. Avery jan… Bravo my friend….

     Karo jan-Excellent..

     I am part of the peanut gallery and I am PROUD… :) SO you don”t insult me with such names Karekin….. I rather be part of the peanut gallery then a Turkopile or a denialist…

     Gayane     

     Reply

137. Avery,

     Great picture! Massege to turks. 

     Reply

138. Bravo Gor, your post is very well thought out and brilliant!

     Bravo Boyajian, I was touched by your following sentence and it is the essence of your whole being, your whole psyche that a Ragnar would never understand it.
     “I have an emotional investment in this dilemma, while you appear to be engaged in an historical research project“.
     There are however other compassionate Turks that understand your comlete being, only if: A) they view the Armenian Genocide with the compassion of the human tragedy and the human waste that have occurred, and B) with the compassion and understanding that after such a magnitude of a tragedy some kind of reparation must be given back to the heirs of this wonderful race.

     Reply

139. Avery, I saved that wonderful Armenian mamig’s picture and I will print and post it on my wall.  If I had to die, I would rather die against the tatar mob exactly like her, holding an AK-47 in my arms.  I can’t get over her frightful but determined eyes.  Indeed our women don’t fall much behind our men.  We are made from the same ingredient my dear, aren’t we?  The very same Armenian women and children were also fighting next to their brave men in May 28, 1918.  How else we could have won a war against the huge armies of Turkey right after the Armenian Genocide of 1915?  The very same was repeated in the 1990’s Artsakh war.  We are made of the same fabric; our brave men, women and children, aren’t we Avery? 

     Thanks for your wonderful post and picture my compatriot.

     Reply

140. Gor
     I agree with you that the term has a certain history, being coined by Lemkin and developed in his proposal for a juridical term based on his “Axis rule”. The general use of the term is “to kill or destroy a people”. So I was inaccurate. What I have in mind is that words acquire the characteristic of a slogan by a certain type of usage. It is a term that horrifies and indicts, and we sometimes use it in short sentences and without definition or clarification. We use language in this way all the time, and there is in itself nothing wrong with it, to my mind. But I feel that this usage has a problematic aspect if one does not take heed: if you use the word in this way (using the term without definition and clarification) you are very much dependent on how the receiver interprets it. For this reason this slogan-like usage stands in contrast to the usage one should have in therapies, research, law and the like. In this sense the term genocide is also a slogan WHEN USED IN A CERTAIN WAY. This is also my criticism of Gayane. She never noticed that I say “yes, it was genocide if you use the reasoning of the ICTJ as a yardstick, but is is much more uncertain if we imagine a court case in which the handling of ICC and the tribunals for Rwanda and former Yugoslavia, and apply the yardsticks used here to the Armenian case.
     (By the way, I am still wondering about ther juridical term presumption and the use of this term to assign the burden of proof to the Turks when they say that it was NOT genocide. I believe it was you that launched this idea?)
      

     Reply

141. Ragnar, I believe you are overly concerned with how Turkish receivers interpret our words.  Of course one should try to communicate in a way that helps others to more easily receive your message accurately.  But to sugar coat your words, at times, risks losing the essence of the message.  Some truths are just hard to swallow.  Genocide is a powerful word for a reason.  It is intended to convey the occurrence of a horrible event that humans collectively condemn.  We all abhor it; even the perpetrators.
      
     What is more important: dialogue or justice?   Yes, both are important, and the first can help lead to the second, but dialogue without the goal of fairness becomes an empty exercise. 

     Reply

142. Karo….it’s always interesting to see and read some people’s knee-jerk reactions and pop psychological analyses, because they are 1) entertaining and 2) always wrong in their interpretations. If you or anyone else has ever been in a court of law, you should know very well that it is rare for justice to be served and for truth to prevail.  In most cases, the final judgments rendered often have little to do with hard facts.  More usual, cases are decided based on who presents the best case and who offers the most coherent argument. My point, as always, is that while Armenians have the facts on their side, it is the delivery and presentation of these facts that gets in the way of getting a positive verdict. Now, Mark Geragos seems to do an amazing job and delivering facts and information that results in positive judgments for his clients. As I’ve been very blunt about before, if we want to have any hope in the future, it is not about blathering slogans or fantasies before a world audience, it must be about presenting the best argument on our own behalf, and frankly, Armenians have fallen short on that level. When you add to it the general anti-Armenian sentiment that seems to be all pervasive in diplomatic circles, Armenia cannot afford to have bungling idiots presenting its case, because that is not how to win. I want Armenia and Armenians to win, more than anything else, but what I’ve seen along the way leaves me underwhelmed and disappointed. So, in the face of such losses, Armenians clearly have to come up with a smarter strategy.  Whining and complaining is not enough to win, and neither is having all the facts. Presenting an argument that cannot fail is the way to go, and if that also entails negotiating a settlement, then do it. When you have zero after 95 years, then its better to get something….even if it’s not 100% of what you want…because it’s alot better than zero. 

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143. I have no clue what ‘idea’ you’re talking about, ragnar naess, therefore, it was not me who launched something I have no idea about.
      
     As for ‘slogan-not slogan’ dichotomy introduced by you, Boyajian gave you an exemplary and exhaustive reply. If you’re more concerned with definition and clarification than with the first-hand experiences of the survivors, witness accounts, official dispatches, courts martial verdicts, and the conclusions of the prevailing majority of the genocide scholars, historians, and professional associations, then re-read the definition as in the 1948 UN Convention.
      
     By the way, the general use of the term ‘genocide’ is not exactly “to kill or destroy a people”. It is “to kill a race“: genos not demos, (Gr.)

     Reply

144. Ragnar- NICE TRY…..You think I forgot what you said and you did not say.. here is what you said many times over… IN DIFFERENT VERSIONS i might add but with the same meaning..after exhausting comment after comment… your thought process is this…”””””” There may be a Genocide BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTt….”” You see that big BUT… yes you represent that BIG BUT… i told you gazillions times… THERE IS NOT BUT… when it comes to Genocide… if you have not had any clarification and definition of what Genocide means and stands for, then obviously you are not doing a great job educating yourselves as you stated in the past….are you???  So your critizism about me really no skin off my nose sir…

     Reply

145. Karekin- YOU should not talk.. you said…
     In most cases, the final judgments rendered often have little to do with hard facts.  More usual, cases are decided based on who presents the best case and who offers the most coherent argument

     This is such a “makes sense” statement but if we HAVE YOU or people like you to present the case for the Armenian people, we FOR SURE will not win… so why don’t you do what you preach… arten im nerveri vra es azdum du gites che????

     Reply

146. Karekin– DU QO NUYN ESHNES QSHUM… Did we not give you a lengthy response about how far we came in the last few years BECAUSE OF OUR steadfeast fight, and perserverance??? You sound like a broken radio because you continue to write your BS about
     When you have zero after 95 years, then its better to get something….even if it’s not 100% of what you want…because it’s alot better than zero. 

     This statement is wrong in so many levels that I can’t express how embarassed I am for you and for your ill mannerism with everyone here… amota amot…

     Gayane

     Reply

147.  Boyajian, you say: Ragnar, your criticism of me has validity: I am loyal to other Armenians and look disparagingly on those who would deprive Armenians even further of a long awaited compensation of what they suffered at the hands of Turks. Comment: But your comment on Avery’s idea of partitioning of  Turkey was a kind of applause, of course very short (“you are a true patriot” wasn’t it?). And the case for a land reparation (which you mention now)  is very different from supporting the idea of PARTITION of Turkey. Now I spoke about getting in the position of discussing with Turks who really want to go into the question.  Possibly they will discuss land reparation, but partition? Hardly. About my motive you are very mistaken. The historical research is part of my wholistic endeavor which includes research and solidarity work and activism. If I was a mere researcher I would have worked at the University, publishing things, not distributing leaflets to Norwegian tourists going to Turkey or mobilizing Turks to go and listen to the lecture of the genocide researcher Bloxham. You are forgetting our earlier discussions and what I told about myself. I also have an emotional commitment and ethical commitment–otherwise I would not care – but of course is has an other basis than yours. – – Gayane, I see we are not understanding each other. I have not made myself understood, I will try again.

     Reply

148. Ragnar, you want me to acknowledge that partition and land reparation are not the same thing.  I do.
     But I also acknowledge that the thought of parts of present day Turkey being returned to various indigenous groups of Asia Minor is quite pleasing.  It is appalling to me that Turkey continues to benefit from murder and theft, denial and distortion of history, and manipulation of my government.  I don’t wish death and destruction on any Turks, but I do long for Mt. Ararat to bear her historic name on world maps, for hidden Armenians to come out of the shadows and for Turkey to admit the truth and offer compensation.
      
     Now, please stop dissecting my words.   I readily admit that emotion and loyalty to ‘my own kind’ come into play for me.  I am human after all.  But I am not the issue.  Justice is.  
      
     About your motives:   I don’t know you and don’t know your motives, but I develop an impression from what you write here and what I hear you say (your participation with known genocide denier Justin McCarthy in a forum he moderated in Utah).  You consistently offend me with your concern for Turkish sensibilities while glossing over the fact that Turkey has gotten away with murder!
      
     Leaflets to Norwegians, urging Turks to go hear Bloxham; these are good things.  Confusing, too.  I still don’t understand your goal in visiting this site.  If you are merely fishing for material for a book to feather your cap, I am not interested.  Because you are not the issue, either.
     Justice is.

     Reply

149. Ragnar

     I would love to exchange views and present the hard facts here on these pages but the editor removes the non Armenian comments very often. This is the Armenian freedom of expression but the same editor whines about freedom of expression constantly in turkey. By the way, you should feel absulately free to use any comments made on these pages. It sounds weird to ask for their permission and more peculiar one was the posters reply. If somebody makes a statemant on tv and if you want to use that statement, would you ask pemission? It is the same thing. They have already  publicized their statements So hard luck to them. If you had a private meeting or interview with these guys. Yes you must ask for their permission but not here

     Reply

150. This post is a retort to this:
     [“But if you and Avery broadcast your ideas on the partition of Turkey, and you get support among Armenians you can say good by to this kind of discussion with honest Turks.
      This was a lapse, wasnt it? I cannot interpret it in another way. 
     can you explain this and give some reference?: Turkey remains a threat to Armenians and to peace in the region because it continues to promote racist pan-Turkism.]  (addressing Gayane)
      
     [“But your comment on Avery’s idea of partitioning of  Turkey was a kind of applause, of course very short (“you are a true patriot” wasn’t it?)”] (addressing  Boyajian)
      
     I have no desire to debate the Prof in an endless chain of vacuous posts, which essentially boil down to an overextended version of Clinton’s infamous “It depends on what the meaning of the word ‘is’ is.”
      
     However, since two friends – Gayane and Boyajian – were criticized on my account, I will engage for this one occasion.
      
     On the partition of Turkey.
      
     Question: What’s wrong with Turkey breaking up into 3-4 pieces ?
     Don’t Kurds and Zaza have the God given right to live as Kurds, speak Kurdish without being jailed or killed ?
     Don’t the hidden-Armenians have the God given right to live openly  as Armenians  without the threat of being killed ?
     Don’t other ethnicities and religious minorities have the God given right not to be forced to call themselves ‘Turks’ and hide their true identity ?
     What’s so sacred about Turkey in your mind ? Is it because you have an acknowledged bias towards Turks ?
     You have visited/lived inTurkey, have many Turk friends ?
      
      
     Did you similarly lament when Yugoslavia was broken up?
     Did you similarly lament when USSR was broken up?
     Did you lament or celebrate the breakup of Sudan into 2 parts ? South Sudanese certainly celebrated.
     The artificial country of Czechoslovakia peacefully split into Czech Republic and Slovakia: Czecks and Slovaks are doing well and quite happy living separately as friendly neighbors.
     French Canadian minority in Quebec narrowly chose to remain part of Canada after a peaceful, popular referendum. That’s fine too.
     What about the breakup of the Ottoman Empire? How many of the nationalities that were under its yoke you think would want to go back to living as serfs and 2nd class citizens ?
      
      
     Ethnic Turks are only about 50% of Turkey: why should they have the right to tell other ethnicities how to live, what language to speak, what names to have?
     Why should invaders from far aw