House Democratic Leadership Blocks Bipartisan Majority from Voting on Genocide-Prevention Measure
WASHINGTON—The U.S. House Democratic Leadership failed today to schedule a vote on the Armenian Genocide Resolution, H,Res.252, despite support for this human rights measure from a broad bipartisan majority, killing the prospects for the passage of this legislation during this session of Congress, reported the Armenian National Committee of America (ANCA).
ANCA chairman Ken Hachikian issued the following statement in response to U.S. House Democratic Leadership’s decision:
“Armenian Americans are angered and disappointed by the failure of Speaker Pelosi and the House Democratic leadership to honor their commitment to allow a bipartisan majority to vote for passage of the Armenian Genocide Resolution.”
“Speaker Pelosi clearly had the majority, the authority, and the opportunity to pass the Armenian Genocide Resolution, yet refused to allow a vote on this human rights measure.”
“The Speaker chose not to move forward, in the face of broad bipartisan backing for this human rights measure, including from the current House leadership and the incoming Majority Leader and Majority Whip, and despite both the relatively muted opposition from the White House, and the fact that Turkey’s effectiveness in opposing its adoption was seriously undermined by controversial policies on the part of Ankara toward Iran, Israel, and Sudan that have angered lawmakers.”
“Her decision to not move this legislation forward during her four years as Speaker represents a failure of Congressional leadership on human rights and, sadly, a setback to America’s standing in the struggle to end the cycle of genocide.”
“Coming in the wake of President Obama’s string of broken promises to recognize the Armenian Genocide, Speaker Pelosi’s refusal to schedule a vote on the Armenian Genocide Resolution represents a major breach of trust with Armenian American voters.”
“Although sharply disappointed by the Speaker’s unwillingness to schedule a vote on the Armenian Genocide Resolution, we were, throughout this session of Congress, tremendously encouraged by the scope and depth of support for the Armenian Genocide Resolution, not only from a bipartisan majority of Congress but also from a growing cross-section of American civil society. We look forward to building on our progress and to continuing the work of the Armenian American community for a strong U.S. moral stand on the Armenian Genocide, an end to Turkey’s campaign of denial, and a truthful and just resolution of this still unpunished crime against the Armenian nation.”
Armenian Assembly Praises Pelosi
LOS ANGELES, Calif.—As the community is outraged at outgoing Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi for failing to schedule a vote Wednesday on the Armenian Genocide Resolution, the Armenian Assembly of America, in a press release issued immediately after the House adjourned, praised Pelosi for providing guidance and assistance during the process.
“…We also particularly commend the steadfast leadership of Speaker Nancy Pelosi and House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, who along with Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chair and White House Liaison Congressman Chris Van Hollen provided guidance and invaluable assistance throughout this process,” stated Armenian Assembly Executive Director Bryan Ardouny in the press release.
On Dec. 22, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty ran a story about the Armenian-American mobilization in favor of the resolution, and reported that “The Assembly is understood to be against putting the draft resolution to a full House vote.”
Their position was explained by unnamed leaders to RFE/RL as: “Nobody wants to take a loss in a floor vote in these circumstances. The genocide denial industry would like nothing better than defeating the resolution, even in an unfair vote.”
In a massive mobilization effort and show of activism, the Armenian-American community pushed forward during the past several weeks and, through phone calls and emails, urged Pelosi and the House Democratic leadership to advance the resolution.
On Dec. 22, the 111th Congress adjourned with Pelosi failing to schedule a vote and the House Democratic leadership blocking the effort to pass the H. Res. 252—the Armenian Genocide Resolution.
Its time to realize that we are dealing with a bunch of liars,be it Obama,Biden,Clinton,and now Pelosi.
Its high time to formulate a different strategy.
Sadly, their values have nothing to do with morality,human rights or democracy which they keep trying to preach to the world,its all to do with creed and hypocrisy.
God save the US and the world from such ‘leaders’.
MK,
You’re realizing this now? Everyone from both parties have been like this for years.
Turks sold their underwear interchange for “Genocide Bill” I bet US officials made Turks to sign very attractive deals on behalf of “Genocide blood”.. well done Mrs. Peolsi!!may God bless US politicians, who are powerless to fight for world “human right” activities..
I have a question what do you think is going to happen if the U.S. recognizes the genocide? As a Turk there is no doubt in my mind that my ancestors did commit the abovementioned act. But my father wasn’t responsible, his father wasn’t. it was his father’s father that was involved. Therefore, whatever the rest of the world says or recognizes, will have no affect on my action. I am aware of what my great grandfather did, but do not feel that it is my fault and that I should pay for his crime, no matter how disgusting and loathsome it is. I and my generation had nothing to do with it. That is why there is no way I am going to pay reparations with my hard earned cash, let alone give a chunk of my country’s territory to Armenia. Though in my honest opinion, the Turkish government should accept history as it is and apologize to every Armenian and do more to restore Armenian historical sites in eastern Turkey.
The frustrating part of this year’s failed passage is that ironically the Obama Administration, at least publicly, did not express the opposition we have come to expect from US presidents. This is all on Pelosi, who had nothing to lose and everything to gain with a moral victory in her final moments as Speaker. I can’t help but grow even more cynical about the so-called friends of Armenians in US politics. God bless the ANCA for their patience and steadfast commitment to promoting justice for so many years now and God give them the strength to continue to lead and educate on this issue that, for better or worse, remains the cornerstone of the American-Armenian identity.
As Katia K, a very notable commentator on these pages and my dear friend said … We should sue US govt for discremination against Americans with Armenian descent for not recognizing our Genocide but recognizing every other Genocides that happened after ours.. How pathetic US govt is to fall short in doing the right thing and standing up what is moral.. what is this world coming to? I feel sorry for these politicians beacuse one day they will stand in front of judgement gate and then they have no where to go and no lies to sing…
My friend who is a non Armenian told me to watch out for Pelosi.. she acts like a friend but she will bite like an enemy and she was right… Shame on Pelosi…
G
I do agree with MK.
It is high time to concentrate MUCH MORE on Armenia, Artsakh (and liberated Armenian territories), so that we can make them just and strong-into the Caspian Sea, as once it was.
Nancy Pelosi and recognition
of ‘Armenians’ Chart’
I can see Lady Nancy Pelosi
Like a beautiful unselfish squirrel
Full of optimism…with soulful smiles
Jumping from place to place
Searching some nuts…at snowy days
To give her honest kinds.
If she couldn’t achieve
It doesn’t mean she has failed.
What could she do?
If she is fenced by endless hungry foxes
Want to sit on chairs enjoy their drinks…dance…
All they look hubris…untrustworthy betrayers
We know only few, but are uncountable through
From Bill Clinton…John Edwards …and many more …
Their secrets need century of wiki-Leaks.
They enjoy crushing others…want to live forever
Let them remember Al-Ma’arri’s eternal stanza:
“Be careful when you walk, not with pride,
under your feet, there are countless fleshes.”
My beloved says, “Who is not honest to his dedicated wife,
(the mother of his children), cannot be honest for others.”
Politicians have many false harts(hearts)
They train every organ to deny every justice,
Their hands are full of uncleanable blood…
Thus…easy for them to deny every genocide!
Sylva-MD-Poetry
Dec 23, 2010
What the aaa REPEATEDLY FAIL to understand is that the genocide denial industry would also like nothing better than having an Armenian organization – which purportedly claims to defend Armenian interests – go on the record as cowardly opposing the Genocide Resolution any time in their sad existence under any fallacious alibi. In doing so they have merely become convenient accomplices for the likes of spineless bureaucrats eager to hide behind the coattails of an ill advised out of touch Armenian organization hell bent on being the State Departments slavish lackey to the detriment of the RA.
Defeating the Genocide Resolution was the last nail in the aaa coffin and the most telling evidence yet that their most ardent supporters remain anti-Armenian and pathetically incorrigible.
Shame on Pelosi for falling back on her word and shame on the aaa for providing her with the political cover she so desperately needed to secure her legacy as a double talking accomplice of genocide deniers.
Pelosi should appologise to Armenians the crossection of supporters for hyjacking the democratic process, lieing to us. She asked for the number of votes to pass and we had it, thousands of calls to her office to bring it to the floor for a vote and She swept HR 252 under the rug. She needs to be held accountable. She knew She wasnt going to bring it to the floor weeks ago and SHe decieved us. At least the Congressional Co-Sponsors should be up in arms and calling her out on this. If no one is held accountable as obviously Pelosi should be why, would they not do the same thing to us year after year after year?
I am shocked Schiff is not singling out Pelosi for deceiving us, waiting till the last days and hour stringing us along like sheep.
Now is a good time to go through the Assembly’s membership rolls and show it’s supporters what they’ve done using it’s own shameless press release. What Armenian would want to support this type of organization, this is just one of a long list of credibility blunders of their own making.
If the number of Face Book members is any litmus test 1,200 compared to ANCA they certainly do not show or represent a cross section of Armenian-Americans, especially in their seemingly selfish self-absorbed, shortsighted, and misguided interests.
Peloci did not have enough votes. 186 votes is not majority. I challenge Hachikian to publish the names of all representatives who were going to vote for us.
Shame on Nancy Pelosi – she is all “mouth service” and no follow-up. Her promises should mean something and frankly the don’t. They all want our support and our money and it is time we stop giving to those that don’t reciprocate – for the common good. Acknowledging this Genocide would work to prevent further Genocides. Don’t take it – when they come to you for a contribution tell them why you won’t do it.
Dear Tuna Tangor,
I appreciate your forthrightness. Yet you fail to acknowledge that you, your father, and your father’s father’s generation have built your current republic on the deaths, treasures and properties stolen by your father’s father’s father’s generation. You have directly benefitted from their crimes and the subsequent rewriting and denial of Turkish history. Though it is difficult to feel responsibility for a crime that others committed, you live in a society that colludes in the cover-up of that crime. Somehow, I doubt that a person with your level of honesty could be so callous or naive to the implications of this fact. This was a societal crime that needs a societal remedy. What your great-grandfather was individually responsible for is not relevant to the discussion. The Turkish nation owes a debt to the Armenian nation (not limited to the current Republic alone). I think it is seriously time for honest Turks to do more than admit to the killing of Armenians and begin to consider the ongoing crime that Turkey is committing against mankind, against history and against your own society.
Are the Turks the worst people on earth? Of course not. You may even be a distant cousin of mine. Have other nations committed heinous and barbarous acts? Yes. But the question you want to ask yourself is “What kind of person am I and what kind of a nation do I want to call my own?” Then do your part to make it happen. One by one you and your friends and countrymen can put this legacy behind you and stop running from its shadow. At the same time, give my nation and my people the dignity of unadulterated truth from which to begin healing from these horrendous days (present tense intended). Money reparations? Land transfers? Let the process of sincere reconciliation guide the direction we need to take. Thank you for sharing your honest opinion, my brother.
I know I will catch flack for this, but I sometimes have trouble caring about the genocide resolution when I see the polarizing affect that it has on a productive dialogue between Armenians and Turks. The goal is to force Turkey to face her crime by way of external pressure from other nations. I get that. And I appreciate the many nations and states in America that have officially recognized the truth of our history. It helps to dignify my ancestors deaths. But my hope is to see more open dialogue with Turks who are willing to view this history with an open mind. I hate to see such efforts pushed to the wayside because of the emphasis on genocide recognition. It seems to me that both efforts are equally important.
As an observer, I would add that it has become a good means for the power brokers et al to utilize the Armenian genocide recognition this side of the Atlantic ocean,in order to help uppers up the real politico to make good on it.Only a few above, have judged corectly that we should concentrate all our efforts and abilities to strengthen RA/Artsakh/Javakhk and thrust FWD independently of such like acts. For these are as mentioned above tools for those who are out there to profit from the outcome(s) and continue indefinitely.
Also try to gear up on our own strategy that of applying to other small and middle size countries in order to gain momentum worldwide.There are many such that can better be handled and won over to our side.
Dear Tuna Tangor and Boyajian,
I salute you both for the type of conversation you are having. I sincerely believe this is how, at the end of the day we all need to carry the Genocide conversation forward for better understanding of each otherS point of view and to show our respect to the memory of the victims. I also have one more point to bring Tuna’s attention, how is it possible to wash your hands off financially and talk about your hard earned money when you do not show the same respect to others property? As you very well know many of the property which got confiscated from the Armenian genocide victims by the state and her agencies, today is being utilized by the state eg : part of the land where Incirlik base is build on, the land Cankaya Kosku is built on etc…don’t you think legal owners and their heirs should have a legal claim on these lands? Furthermore Tuna, I am sure you have heard of the terminology called “Sermayenin Turklesmesi”, have you ever wondered what that meant and understood how it was implied?
If Pelosi had nothing to lose, then why do you think she didn’t bring the resolution to the floor for a vote? She didn’t have the votes, regardless of what you are reading!
I resent anyone speaking on my behalf and saying “Armenian-Americans are angered.” I for one am not, because if the vote failed which it most likely would have, the Turks would have had a win like no other. And, you can forget ever bringing another resolution to the House floor. And, just think what would have happened to the decisions cases like the Massachusetts school case — and the California life insurance case — would these go in our favor next time? And what about other issues that might come to litigation in the future?
Time to move on and worry about the Republic and Artsakh. They need our efforts more than ever these days.
Boyadjian: Let me be the first to dish out the flack for you! The recognition of the Genocide has deeper meaning than what you described in your message. It is the acknowledgement of a social miss justice and a despicable crime. The process of healing starts with the acknowledgement of the crime. Everything else is just an aside.
Tuna: I am extremely happy to read your message. Frankly, Armenians are doing well and do not need your hard earned money. It is not a question of money. The fact that you wrote the paragraph means a lot to me and other Armenians. It is worth more than money. The question again is social justice and acknowledging that a clean and above all faults nation like Turkey has actually committed a crime against its citizens in the past. By acknowledging this crime, Turkey recognizes that these people are not a lower cast but their equal. This is a big issue. Since Turkey has not in the past or now acknowledge that non-Muslim minorities are equal to the rest of the Muslim population and have the same rights. This is the big problem with allowing Turkey to join the EU. When Turkey decides to acknowledge the human rights as it applies to all humans and not just to some of them it is then that Turkey will be welcome in the circle of civilized nations as an equal.
Tuna: part of “your country’s territory” is actually calls Western Armenia. So, how much right You or somebody else have to hold the lands that are not “yours”?
i can’t believe AA would praise a failure!IMHO AA must stand for Ah Anonymous!
Some naive Armenians here online are satisfied with ¨Tuna Tangor¨´s erroneous,then turning into sugar coated Ottoman-turkish diplomatic double talk…
I shall pinpoint the ¨double talk¨.A.Prof. V.dadrian and many others have confirmed that her/his(what name that is male or female) father not great great father have witnessed what Musstafa Kemal-passed on in the 1930´s -did,finishing off what his predecessors had started.Thence ,this is one correctioon
B.Indeed according to International law there is no time limit on such Attrocities/Genociodes.C. Certainly republic of Turkey can be held responsible for private lands, farms. churches,monasteries confiscated and above all CONDEMMED to pay ¨¨Blood Money¨. Don´t worry your govt knpows how not to pay,quite the other way around RECEIEVE and not pay back.
C-Hence, the Ermenis of today have ways and means to lodge cliams through 3rd parteis such as right now is being done in L.A. for Armenian owned land underneath the Ïnchirlik¨ Air base that the U.S. has been paying rent for in the millions ..
D. if worse comes to worse and republic of Turkey outright declares bankrupt officially, we shall also begin to claim part of the Oil pipe line (/easy money) transit duties that is levied on the Oil companies that by passed Armenia(for whatever reason or again pressed by r.of Turkey).
You may rest assured that this is just the tip of the iceberg.
Last but not least this Turks is suggesting , as ´BASKSHISH¨ I take it …¨restore historic Armenian monuments-those left more or less sstanding–and that .mind you for attracting tourism if for no any other reason.VERY SMART Indeed, I´d say cunning that does not pass naany mpore Tunga..
99% of Congressmen and women are phonies and cowards who do not serve their American constituency. That is a fact.
As far as the Genocide issue goes, I am wondering where Congresswoman Spier are Eshoo (both 1/2 Hye) are on this issue? We have not heard from them. Should we support them anymore?
They should both be criticizing President Obama.
I am disapointed also in the leadership of Armenia. Why does it not point out the hypocrisy of what Obama is doing? Turkey always has a lot to say but not Armenia.
In the war of words, Armenia lets Turkey win just as it lets Azerbaijan win.
I say this: do not trust a politician, ever, and do not trust judges.
Look guys, whether the motion was presented or not, it was doomed to pass. Let us for a moment be smart and not fall into the Turkish woven tricks. The timing was wrong, we need more cool headed people to guide our people. Throwing insults to our friend (Nancy Pelosi) does not do one single good for our cause. We are fighting against the US government, no matter what we do, we are doomed to fail…until when the time is right. Turkey is sliding further into the Pan Islamic fold, Al Qaeda Turkish branch has already massacred 250 American troops. At the end of the day, things will change, no need to antagonize the few friends we have in congrss. Come on people…relax.
My humble opinion:
Redouble the effort (focus on 100 anniversary)- cough up the cash- and hope/help the the Kurds rebel destroying Turkey like a cancer from the inside!
If the owners of Incirlik land could get their land back wouldn’t that solve this in a microsecond!
In the meantime, pray that Armenia is not sacrificed to the Zionist/American designs on Iran. While we are praying, make supplication for a miracle that the ruling eastern mafia is overthrown in Hayasdan to open a door to men and women who wish to commemorate their grandparents by altruistic nation building and less greed.
When will we finally realize that our true enemy lurks within the US government??
The likes of racists like Steve Cohen who are Turkish agents and hate a strong hatred for Armenians are in the government working against our interests.
Fist we must kick these clowns out of US government if we are to get any where.
Even if that were the case (which it is not) she hyjacked the democratic process out right. The people have a right to have their issue put on the house floor and for the Assembly to give her praise is disrepectful to the Armenian Community and the deaths of our martyrs. If the Assembly does not see the obvious they are not in the business of representing the will of Armenians. They are only in the business of it’s own selfish interests.
Boyajian It’s not about catching flack more-so then your being naive, on the final act of genocide, this is where your thoughts fall prey.
That’s okay Frederick! I can take it. And there really isn’t anything you wrote that I would disagree with. (Read my first message, just above the one you commented on, and you will see that I am with you on this.) I know the work of genocide recognition is important for the healing process, but I do believe we sometimes wage a lopsided battle and give precious little money or time for dialogue, as well as focus too little on financial and moral support to our young republic. I’m just looking for more balance.
It should not be any surprise as we all know AAA is part and parcel of the US state department,does the bidding and tries to divide the community on the instructions of the state department,TARC was another example of their deceitful policies.
They should be treated as outcasts.
Sylva – lovely poetry, thank you
As for the debate on the resolution, I thank you all for your input and usual thoughtful considerations. But let me say that we are an amazing body of organized activism as a small community. We are a model for others. Never let it be said that this Genocide Recognition is not a benefit to us: it helps us to organize. That is indeed SOMETHING. Never forget.
In a short time, we will honor the Person who is Truth. Let us remember it is the truth that makes us truly free. In the land of the free, the truth is silenced at times, but WE are not silent. And that is worth more than all the gold in the world; it has kept us as a people for centuries as well.
i don’t understand, where does the assembly praise pelosi? does anyone have a link?
Frankly, I do not care what anyone thinks or says as to the number of votes WE had. No one really knows that result, until there IS a vote. Had there been a vote, WE would have known who was really with us and who was not. NOT THINKING WE HAD THE VOTES TO WIN IS NOT A REASON TO CALL FOR A VOTE. That argument is dog crap. And anyone who repeats that BS argument, should go into selling oranges on off ramps.
Rich, thanks for your comment, but I have to disagree that I am naive about denial being the last act of genocide. I completely agree that we have a right and an obligation to make sure that the historical record be accurate and to demand that Turkey face her crime. I didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I really just want to advocate for more dialogue.
We had enough “DIALOGUE” over 90 years.Screw dialogue it never too late for real concrete ACTION! enough is enough..Like the Armenian song says “Paypayetsin mer houy sere YERGAR jamanag!
Here’s a link from their own website:
http://www.aaainc.org/index.php?id=7&no_cache=1&newsID=329
The fourth paragraph.
My comment was meant for Canadian Armenian. I’m from Canada too, by the way.
To Boyajian,
Have you got any available suggestions in demanding of ,Turkey, to own up her crimes? I’m ALLLLLLLLLL ears, Dude..
To robert,
When you use the word,” Pray” or “praying” your statement becomes invalid. Pray Who?
Look up under AAA ‘TAVLI’ tournament. Pelosi, is on top,
Boyajian — Do you think Turks will offer reparations and restitution of the stolen Armenian lands through or as a result of a dialogue? Curious to know… If you do, then you don’t know the Turks and the history of their emergence on the world map as Seljuk-Mongol destroyers, looters, occupiers, rapists, and murderers. Do you seriously think that modern-day descendants of those nomadic Central Asian tribes are at all capable of engaging themselves in a dialogue with the prospect of paying reparations to the victims of nations they near-annihilated from the face of the Earth and appropriated their lands, cultural structures, private property, and bank accounts? Pay close attention at a typically Turkish sugar-coated comment of Tuna. What he/she means to say is: there’s no way we pay reparations and give your lands back. And you advocate a “dialogue” instead of international pressure and legal lawsuits with them? Utopia, I’m sorry to say…
Hye, Hovnanian of the Assembly wanted to join the ARF, in leadership too, as I recall. He was informed one does not just ‘join’ the ARF… one must be worthy of membership and he did not qualify. Today his AAA has shown its true colors… the membership of AAA was, in its way, too, only for those worthy of that membership!
But yet, all grassroots across the USA chose to belong/support the ANCA in its honest efforts and allegiances to our Armenian people – even worldwide.
Today there are monies which have been donated for the Armenian Museum in Washington DC… how/where are these being held – or are these donations paying for the attorneys in the law suit/s pending now for years… shamefully…
AAA, allied with USA State Department, delaying a Museum which is unnecessarily not being advanced – tied up in law suits… Whither AAA? Manooshag
i don’t think we should too worked up over this latest development. I am sure most Armenians observed nothing that surprised them. It has always been about power and “interests”; not moral correctness. There are a few things we should consider:
1. We should listen to new ideas, such as the insight from Boyajian, in order to
efforts focused on the goal. Our emotions can also work to distract us. Our
cause will make strides as change continues within Turkey. We need to enable
that change not ignore it with prejudgment.
2. I don’t see the value to our cause of Armenian organizations critizing
others. I am conerned about where the Armenian Assembly is headed,
but I will not publically challenge there intent . There are other venues
for debate, but public discourse seems self serving and an opportunity
for the Turkish government to win over neutral parties. I did find the
Assembly statement patronizing and they seem to be searching for
an identity, but is this any different than the ARF when they were a part
of the government? In my view, they have been more effective in the
“loyal opposition’ role. All groups go through identity issues, but real
leadership finds a way to unify when it counts. We aren’t there yet.
3. I am having some difficulty with our near obsession with another
Congressional resolution. We have had two pass and a President
declare it was Genocide. Does the subsequent silence of succeeding
Congresses and Presidents somehow invalidate the on the record
statements? Do resolutions ahve to be passed every year for it be
valid? So we pass a recognition resolution this year, must we pass one
next year or the genocide is “unrecognized” In my view the United States
is on record. The current political climate precludes another statement,
but that has no bearing on what has been already stated.
4. Our focus should be on reparitions. The best to defeat the denial mentality
is show thathtey are less relevant than they think they are and to show
that we are moving to the next stage of recovery. This next stage is what the
Turks fear most and what prevents acknowledgement. We need to help them
with their fear and show our resolve.
5. Listen to the Boyajians that talk about impacting the only relationship that
counts…..Turks and Armenians. This approach is not naive or surrender, but
full of the political practical reality that change within Turkey is what will allow
them to reconcile with their history. Our hatred sometimes blinds us to options
before us. Political machines stay focused on the goal and avoid distractions.
Are we looking for emotional outlets or long term justice? How does our work
change in the diaspora as it relates to Armenia and Karabagh?
Let’s not lose faith. Our efforts should continue, but we should consider tactics
that build momentum and find balance. And most importantly, resist our natural
tendency to splinterand play into our adversaries traps.
Let’s not waste time and energy. Each and every congress or senate will be the same.
Turkey has the geographical asset which we don’t have.
Forget about morals and Human Rights. they don’t pay! That’s politics!
Mrs. Pelosy or any other Mrs. or Mr. will do the same. Then why do we decive ourselves?
The US or any other Big Power will make good use of our problem and make bargians, even with the devil him or her- self.
Then about the AAA or aaa, what can we say? Even Avarair ( Vartan Mamigonian) had such a case. (Sorry)! Yerp koghe dounen ella, komeshe daniken ge koghtsoui!
Any how, we have to look foreward. This isn’t the first or last dissapointment. We have much work to do.
I too wonder why the RA government is so SILENT about these developments. Why don’t they offer their at least moral support to the US in order to counter the Turkish threats? I really begin to wonder if the Karabakh boys in charge of RA care about genocide recognition and restitution.
Mrs. Peolsi made her Christmas wish to Armenians of the world!!I wonder sometimes if she still has some Christian values with her own personal life, where greed, power, and politics, flourished in her lifestyle..
American Thinker: Pelosi’s Crooked Catholicism
Stepan, thanks for understanding my intent. I really like this line you wrote:
“We need to help them with their fear and show our resolve.”
I think there is real wisdom in the notion that the Turks may need us to show them the way to reconciliation without it meaning surrender on our part.
Mjm, I know very well what kind of nation Turkey has been and I don’t expect that Turkey would be willing to freely offer land reparations anymore than you do. I simply advocate for more dialogue, not less international pressure. Please keep an open mind and be willing to consider that our cause can be approached from different angles at the same time without losing ground or relinquishing our rights.
And Greg, I disagree. We have had precious little honest dialogue over the past 95 years. I’m all for concrete action, too. International pressure for genocide recognition is an important angle, but not the only one we should pursue.
We couldn’t solve this issue after 100 years because extraordinary events occurred after WW1. Soviets occupied Armenia and for a century Armenia was isolated from the world. In the other hand anti-communist West signed peace treaty with Turkish nationalists and supported them. They supported all kind of nationalists, fascists in Turkey against communists, anarchists. 1980 military coup was backed by CIA to crush communists in Turkey. Similar military juntas in Greece and Latin America were also supported by the US. After Armenia returned to the international area, most of the witnesses were dead, new generation in Turkey was educated with lies.
Actually we couldn’t start any dialogue, we didn’t even try it. Some people talk like dialogue didn’t work, no, we never talked to each other.
I am sure any Turkish person
Who enters this site
He has Armenian Blood
But can’t do anything…
We should educate them to confess
And at least not to deny…
If Bedouins and Saudi Royal family have Armenian blood
Why not who call themselves ‘Pure Turkish’.
There is nothing called Pure Turkish or Pure Armenian
We all have mixed DNA through centuries…
Sylva
Looks like most my Armenian compatriots here forget the main issue here!
Even if Nancy Pelosi was elected as US President and even if she was of Armenian decent, she wouldn’t pass the Genocide Bill against apparent US interests.
It’s common with all politicians (even Armenians) to ‘show’ humanitarian support in favour of similar Bills as far as there are no consequences against government interests.
In Australia, when ‘Joe Hockey’ the Armenian minister of Human Services in previous Australian government visited Armenia didn’t even make a visit of ‘Tsitsernakaberd’, only to not make a political statement against Turkey!
Yet the same ‘Joe Hockey’, these days as ‘Shadow Finance Minister’ of opposition party makes several statements and asking current government to formally recognize Armenian Genocide!
Well, we better to look at ourselves before expecting others to do anything for us!
To all my brothers and sisters who offers their wisdom and heart on this post:
It is Christmas Eve!! During this moment of yet another disappointment by those with only a peripheral understanding and committment of our people’s plight, let us always remember the Good News… Our Lord loves us and has blessed our people with the spirit of determination and survival. The warmth and bond that Armenians feel for each other( as exemplified on this post and others) is a gift from God that has enabled us to carry forward. Treasure this gift and let us praise the One from whom it was given.
Merry Christmas!! Shanoravor Nor Daree yev Soorp Dzununt!!!
Here we go again. A Stepan-Boyajian duo advocating for “a productive(?!) dialogue between Armenians and Turks.” I don’t necessarily disagree with the notion of a dialogue in theory, but I have hard time comprehending the definition of it in Armenians’ case and how in practice such a dialogue is possible. Boyajian, dialogue on what? What is it that we, Armenians, haven’t experienced firsthand in the hands of bloodthirsty Turks that we need to open a “dialogue” for? If you reiterate that the dialogue is aimed at encouraging some Turks to “view their history with an open mind,” then, I’m sorry, it’s not a dialogue, but an attempt on enlightment, rather.
There is a number of variables involved that cast doubt on the possibility and the productiveness of such a “dialogue,” or enlightment attempt, to be correct. One is population disproportion. Even if 10 mln Armenians make an attempt, as Boyajian suggests, “to keep an open mind” with the 73 mln mostly close-minded Turks to invite them to face their history, I don’t think that given such an immense numerical disproportion the attempt could affect the Turkish society to the extent that the bulk of them start “viewing their history with an open mind.”
Next is societal fragmentation. Turks who are willing to view their history with an open mind, even considering the current signs for growing tendency, do not and hardly any time soon will constitute a fraction within the Turkish society that could affect the decision-making or instigate a societal transformation. The military continues to have a firm grip on the decision-making process and the incarnation of the Kemalist ideology. Can this change in the distant future? Of course it can, nothing is ever in perpetuity. But to suggest that Armenians’ efforts would eventually help form such a fraction within the Turkish society is, to me, utopian.
Next variable is the immediate effect of both efforts, namely: forcing Turkey to face her crime by way of external pressure and seeing more open dialogue with Turks who are willing to view their history with an open mind. Clearly, the first has the prevalence over the other in terms of opportuneness and timeliness, considering the fact that Armenians have longed for justice for 95 years. During these years, advocacy and external pressure have produced international awareness with nearly 30 governments of the world acknowledging the genocide and scores of local governments, international organizations, professional associations, advocacy groups, scholars and academic dignitaries having done the same. Whereas “more open dialogue with Turks” is a kind of a wishy-washy idea that, by definition, cannot have immediate results and will only prolong the Cause for another 95 years. As such, these two efforts cannot be equally important, Boyajian, because the proven record of the effects that the first one has already produced and possible ramifications of the second that are at best vague and time-consuming, are incomparable per se. More open dialogue with Turks can only be considered complementary to the main effort, but by no means as important as external pressure and legal demands.
Stepan, while agreeing on some of your observations, here are a few things that I have to offer for you to consider.
In point 1: “We need to enable that change [in Turkish society] not ignore it with prejudgment.” How technically, given the counterarguments I made above?
In point 3, “We have had two [Congressional resolutions] pass and a president declare it was genocide.” Not quite correct. There has never been a Congressional resolution acknowledging the mass killings of the Armenians as genocide. The issue was never voted and approved by at least one of the two chambers of the U.S. Congress. Thus, it has no legal connotation. Congressional subcommittees or committees’ resolutions bear no legal weight. As for the current or next president declaring it was genocide, our demand is valid for the same reason: because the U.S. Congress failed to pass the genocide resolution. Had it done so, there would have been no need to demand new resolutions or new presidential proclamations. I thought it should have been clear for a person with your level of intellect.
In point 4: “We need to help [the Turks] with their fear [for reparations].” How technically?
In point 5: “Listen to the Boyajians that talk about impacting the only relationship that counts…..Turks and Armenians.” We are listening, and very attentively so to avoid prolongation of justice by means of some incomprehensible “dialogue” between the victim and the perpetrator. However, Turks and Armenians, even if we eventually see them engaged in some kind of hypothetical “open dialogue”, are not the only relationship that counts. Just like in 1915-1923, when several other nations were involved and actually instigated the mass slaughter of Armenians by the Turks, so is now: several power centers exist that have vested interests in the geopolitical and economic stratification of power in the broader region, interests that tend to make sure that Turks and Armenians are, actually, not the only relationship that counts.
“Even if Nancy Pelosi was elected as US President and even if she was of Armenian decent, she wouldn’t pass the Genocide Bill against apparent US interests.”
Good point Hairenakitz. We need better talking points to show that this bill SERVES American interests. What do you all think of this pitch?
America and its allies are involved in an ideological war against terrorism. The best weapon we have in this ideological war is our moral integrity. Recognizing past crimes, namely the Armenian Genocide, and reminding the world of our role in aiding the victims of this crime, is imperative to reinforce our moral integrity in the world, which is necessary to convince third countries of the justness of our present cause.
Moreover, Turkish threats are not credible. They have failed to act on their threats with other NATO allies who have recognized this crime, such as Canada and France. More importantly, Turkey seeks America’s own help in fighting Kurdish ‘terrorism’. Therefore, Turkey cannot credibly abandon us in our fight against terrorists in Afghanistan and still expect our support against Kurds. Not to mention the billions of dollars they receive every year in rents from our use of Incirlik.
Դրօ – you wrote:
Here’s a link from their own website:
http://www.aaainc.org/index.php?id=7&no_cache=1&newsID=329
The fourth paragraph.
No, it’s the third paragraph
“…Turkey was leveraging its influence on the Hill as it negotiated a possible multi-billion dollar arms deal with an American defense firm.”
bakshish wins the day
Stepan: January 5th is the Christmas Eve for the Armenians. Thanks for the warm wishes, though…
This is assuming, just as you’ve noted, that “America and its allies are involved in an ideological war against terrorism”. But I don’t agree.
The US has a long track record of providing foreign and humanitarian aid to countries and causes all over the world. But it also has a long track record of ignoring disasters, covering up its inadequacies and crushing democratically elected leaders in favour of pro-US dictators. Recently, the US threatened to stop all aid to Armenia unless she cut her ties with Iran.
The US works in its own interests. The War on Terror is not about establishing nice people as leaders of governments in the Mid East; it’s about maintaining its world hegemony by controlling OPEC member states. China and India are among many powers growing to superpower status. The US can’t compete with China’s rate of growth, so it’s attempting to be the one with its hand on China’s fuel supply.
mjm, I always enjoy and respect your commentary. It is not necessary to agree on every point. The diversity of thought challenges me and helps me to evolve my own thoughts. For that , I thank you.
Your comments on the congressional resolution is technically valid. I believe the past activity was a subcommitte and one house ; along with Reagan’s comments. My point is that all of this is rather hollow because it really doesn’t effect foreign policy. Foreign policy is determined by the ever changing manequin of “interests”; not by congressional resolutions.Very few in Congress argue today whether a genocide occurred. Opposition stems from damging a relationship with a 21st century alignment. We argue and lobby on moral grounds and I see this as a somewhat wasted exercise.
I think investing our resources in the dynamic changes going on in Turkish society is soemwhat intriguing. God knows that we are Armenians have been dangerously islolated from direct contact with Turks for decades. Most Armenians speak from third party or hatred. This is not in the interests of Armenians. You ask what to do?
Enable and support when appropriate enlightenment in Turkey. We see academic, journalistic, educational and public examples. The Kurds are probably an influencing option that has been sub optimized to this point.
These are not mutually exclusive. Our strategy should pursue multiple parallel paths; consistent with our value system. i think we have done a good job of getting everyone’s attention and building respect, but we know that the world can get distracted. The Turks need to know that apologizing is not the end. Sometimes I think that we put so much effort inot recognition; that we are setting ourselves up. That the world will be tired of this issue when the day comes that the Turks admit their crime. Yes that day is coming, but the question is …will we be ready? Is there life after recognition? Without a parallel process that nutures change within Turkey that we are a part of, we may not be ready for that day when yes… Turks and Armenians will have to sit down and reconcile… not surrender, but reconcile with justice. We, especially in the diaspora ,need to prepare ourselves. We have been living on pure emotion too long.
@Jay
by pray I mean to ask God the creator and sustainer of life to show His kindness to our race and nation and work in the spiritual realm to battle Satan and his host in this battle for justice and good governance on earth. The ultimate justice will be at the apaneusis or rapture of Christians at Christ’s return, when those who have died in Christ (presumably most of our ancestors) are raised to immortality and given new glorious bodies which are fashioned after that of the ressurrected Lord. That is the true and comforting hope for those of us who believe.
You do not have to believe that but you also have no right to say it is invalid.
Please consider this powerful message as your Christmas present from me. I PRAY for your belief and salvation some day so I can meet you on that glorious day along with our raised ancestors.
Merry Christmas to you, Dude and all other contributors here and Peace on earth.
Stepan, likewise. The truth is born in a tumultuous exchange of thoughts where diversity plays, perhaps, the most important role. For that I thank you, too.
I don’t necessarily disagree on most of your views, but some of them seem to be overly pacifistic to me. Not that I consider myself a hawk, but, rather, because of my firm conviction that murderers will not repent unless they’re made to; and no Track II dialogues, contacts, and persuasions can make them repent IF they’re not accompanied to the greater extent with Track I rigid efforts, such as international recognition, genocide perpetration lawsuit, legal demands for reparations and restitution, international symposiums, boycotts, etc.
As for the congressional resolution, there has never been a House resolution, only subcommittee-level non-binding resolutions and Reagan’s comment that was not even a part of the April 24th Presidential Address. My point is that if, as you say, “all of this is rather hollow because it really doesn’t affect foreign policy”, then why wouldn’t the House adopt a non-binding resolution or why wouldn’t the president honor his own commitment and describe the systematic killings of Armenians as genocide? I’m afraid, you contradict yourself on this. Besides, no country’s parliament that acknowledged the proven historical fact has “damaged a relationship with a 21st century alignment.” I’m saddened to see “America The Beautiful, America The Great” that considers itself the beacon of democracy and human rights, dragging behind countries like Uruguay, Latvia, or Russia. Mind you, from geopolitical perspective Russia has more vested interest in Turkey and the broader region than the U.S. with its sole Incirlik base, but nevertheless Russians had the courage to acknowledge the truth and it never damaged their 21st-century relationship with the Turks.
I don’t think lobbying on moral grounds is a “somewhat wasted exercise.” It did produce results, and tangible ones. Here you contradict yourself again. Isn’t the “dialogue” that you and Boyajian advocate also based on moral grounds? Invoking conscience with the murderers: isn’t this a moral incentive-based action? If it is, then I wonder if it might also turn out to be a “wasted exercise”… In the last paragraph you contradict yourself again. Having said that “lobbying on moral grounds is a somewhat wasted exercise,” you nonetheless acknowledge that “we have done a good job of getting everyone’s attention and building respect.” But, Stepan, this was done mostly by lobbying on moral grounds…
I also didn’t quite get the meaning of this phrase: “…Armenians have been dangerously isolated from direct contact with Turks for decades.” Why “dangerously” and why “isolated”? What could be more dangerous than already accomplished near-annihilation of a race? And what side was it that created isolation for Armenians by refusing to open the border, imposing the blockade, and refusing to establish diplomatic relations? I agree this is not in the interests of Armenians, but hasn’t the leadership of the Republic always stated that they are ready to establish relations without preconditions? I’d agree that we should “enable and support when appropriate enlightenment in Turkey,” but I’d refrain from using the word “dialogue” in this endeavor, as Boyajian wrongly put.
As for “Turks and Armenians will have to sit down and reconcile… not surrender, but reconcile with justice,” I take it only in terms of reconciling with justice and not in terms of some wacky reconciliation between the victim and the murderer.
Very well said as usual mjm. This one sentence of yours really nailed it concisely. Thank you for this.
“More open dialogue with Turks can only be considered complementary to the main effort, but by no means as important as external pressure and legal demands.”
Boyadjian and Stepan, please try to reassess your misguided emphasis of dialogue with Turks by answering this question: How can either of you expect Armenians or Turks to engage in dialogue or even enlightenment for that matter if the topic of discussion they are to be discussing or learning about is criminalized by TURKISH LAW and subject to the harsh realities we are all very familiar with (litigation, murder, prison sentences etc.)?
Dikranagertzi, I used the term “parallel” and you used “complementary” to describe the role of open dialogue, but I think we can agree that additional paths are in our interests. I understand there is great reluctance in our community to invest in dialogue; given the general lack of remorse by the Turkish authorities. By and large there are two reasons that our people are reluctant to reach out…. one is our institutional hatred of anything Turkish and the other our belief that these enlightened segments of Turkish society are powerless. On the former, we can oppose a government policy, but recognize that its people can be equally victimized. On the latter, power starts with a vision and the ability to capture the will of people. The lies that Turks have told their people for decades are being exposed by an educated, curious and impatient generation. If the end point of resolutions is to pressure change, is that not also the goal of encouraging enlightenment. Code 301 will disappear as more Turks show the courage to challenge it with their behavior. With continued challenge, the government will continue to be more reluctant to exercise its intent. This modest defacto civil disobedience is happening… slowly but it is.
mjm…. my comment on dangerous is meant to illustrate that we do our people and cause no great service when we speak of Turks only with broad stereotypes. It shows how isolated we are from having an actual relationship and understanding their society. I believe that an informed community can best serve its objective. Thanks for the thoughtful discourse.
Merry Christmas to all those celebrating today and those celebrating again on the 5th and 6th of January!
The little child born on this day came to show us the way to the Father, and in Him we may all have new life, and a fuller life. Among his lessons were examples of how to settle things with those who wrong us. Christ taught us that we should repeatedly show our brother how he has wronged us, even to the point of bringing witnesses along if a private conversation doesn’t coax repentance (Genocide Resolution is such an effort); never stop pursuing each other’s understanding. And in the end, we should forgive each other; not three times, not seven times, but seven times seventy! Christ was all about relationship (that’s where dialogue comes in).
Many blessings to all. Shnorhavor Nor Daree yev Sourp Dzenount.
Amen, Boyajian. Let us all celebrate the Good News of today!
Mjm, I am not ignoring your pointed questions. My last message above, embedded with a Christmas greeting, was meant to give you and others an idea of the spirit that informs my thinking. Forgive me for not responding point by point, except for this..
On dialogue vs. enlightenment: I pray for the understanding that can only come from the light from above, for both sides. Not trying to sound holier than thou, its just my belief that both sides are subject to becoming too deeply entrenched in hatred and prejudice and that person to person connections can be revolutionary.
Dikrangertzi, I don’t think Stepan or I have a “misguided emphasis” on dialogue. I think we are both trying to say that there are multiple angles from which to approach our cause, and we recognize a need for open communication with Turks. And remember, the judicial implementation of Article 301 in Turkey is changing…due both to external pressure and Turkey’s EU aspirations.
In no way am I advocating for passivity or surrender of our just cause or the external pressure that comes from Genocide recognition resolutions.
Stepan and Boyajian –
I think I can understand your standpoints from an emotional, humanitarian, if you will, perspective. However, as a realist, I support Dikranagertzi’s point that both of you show the signs of having a misguided emphasis of “dialogue” with Turks. None of you defined “dialogue”, to start with. The way you supported the notion gives me an impression that Turks and Armenians waged some kind of war and now, as full-fledged former warring sides, they engage in a dialogue to pave a way towards forgiveness, understanding, and harmony. This is how I generally perceive “dialogue”. But I categorically reject any effort to use the term in the context of a an ugly historical event, a crime against humanity, where Turks have near-annihilated the Armenians. Thus my unanswered question to Boyajian: considering this known historical fact and growing international condemnation of it, “dialogue” with the Turks on what? Secondly, whether or not the judicial implementation of Article 301 in Turkey that, as Dikranagertzi rightly put, criminalizes such “dialogue” is changing, it DOES exist, and I simply don’t see any leverage for Armenians through a “dialogue” to help change it. Boyajian, you then went on replacing “dialogue” with “understanding” and “open communication.” I can see what “understanding” Armenians would want to see happening amongst the Turks, but, my friend, what “understanding” are you implying in the case of the Armenians? What is it that we must understand based on your mode of thinking? That we “should forgive our brother who wronged us”? I’d rush to be among the first to do so after Turks repent, but not before. Remember, Christ also teaches us not to waste what is holy on people who are unholy and not throw your pearls to pigs (Matthew 7:6). As for “open communication,” noone disagrees that it can be a complementary avenue, but exactly which side hinders such “open communication” by keeping the borders closed and by refusing to have full diplomatic relations that would facilitate people-to-people communication? Having said this, I’m unshaken in my firm belief that murderers will not repent unless they’re compelled to do so. If open communication will help achieve repentance, fine, but the main emphasis should be made on international recognition and legal demands.
Armenians celebrate Christmas on January 6th. Cheers.
I remember my childhood when my father use to take me to Armenian events at the Dashnag Armenian club in Watertown in the early 1950’s. It was Armenian Genocide and the what the Turks did to Armenians. The stories were all pretty much the same. I am now on the upper end of my 60’s and still the same talk. It was apparent to me years ago as it is now and as I have commented on before we Armenians are being played like a fine violin by politicians, all politicians, it means votes. If I recall Denis Hastert and Dick Gephart were on the side of Armenians. Sorry they were and are on the side of money. The Armenian leadership must have figured this one out long ago but I can only guess that they need to stay in power they can not be that dumb after so many years. I do not mean to be insulting but herike. I once heard that if you keep on doing that same thing you will continue to get the same results. We need new ideas, we needed them year ago, the old ideas did not do it.
BTW, I have to say that I am not part of the community. I am on the outside looking in. I wrote to one of the leaders and an influential Armenian American entertainer, who is heavily involved in the genocide movement, that I had a new approach. The entertainer never got back to me the leader who we all know of told me, in essance that the idea woulld not work. I have been writing about the ( my terminology) billions and billions of HARD EARNED AMERICAN TAX DOLLARS that has been sent to Turkey and they have the nerve to dictate their policy to the USA, especially in these hard US economic times. We, the USA, helped build Incerlik Air Base and Turkey has the nerve to threaten the USA with not allowing American planes to use Incerlik Air Base and Turkish air space in its war with Iraq if the US approved the Genocide Resolution. I am sure if the US told Turkey they will stop sending money to them see how fast Turkey learns to spell Armenian Genocide. Comments please!
AKA: So what do you, as the one being on the outside looking in, suggest doing in order to get different results? Didn’t see any suggestion in this regard in your comment…
Technically, mjm, Armenians begin their liturgical observance of Christmas at sundown on the eve, which is January 5th.
Despite your meticulous attention to detail and word choice, I think you are misreading me. I agree with your statement from above; “If open communication will help achieve repentance, fine, but the main emphasis should be made on international recognition and legal demands.” I think both things are important from a humanistic and Christian perspective. We may personally differ on the percent of emphases from either arena, but I think we can agree that both efforts have their place. And I completely respect if you choose not to spend your energy or intellect in ‘dialogue’ with Turks.
Why the need to keep correcting and picking apart? Don’t you think it is more beneficial for Armenians to support each other, than to spend so much energy finding fault with those who don’t agree completely with us.
Governments create policies and laws which influence the choices, actions and attitudes of their people; and people’s actions and attitudes have an influence on the government. In my humble opinion, dialogue (open communication for the purpose of enhancing understanding and moving past prejudice) can be helpful on a person to person level and has the potential of influencing a segment of population which may then have an influence on Turkish society and politics. Also, my personal experience has shown that most Turks simply don’t know the truth as we know it, and don’t consider our demands as just. I think its important for Turks to hear our personal stories and to find out the truth about the created history they have been taught.
@ mjm
‘As for “Turks and Armenians will have to sit down and reconcile… not surrender, but reconcile with justice,” I take it only in terms of reconciling with justice and not in terms of some wacky reconciliation between the victim and the murderer.’
What murderer are you referring to. Everyone that was involved in the annihilation of more than 90 per cent of Armenia from present day Turkey are long dead. No one alive today was involved in the deportation and genocide of the Armenians in 1915. There are no murderers left alive to punish. Therefore, What you seek is impossible, because you don’t seek justice but revenge. Wanting justice is very noble and I think the right of every Armenian, but demanding that we give you a chunk of Turkish soil is not justice it is revenge. And revenge from not the people who committed the atrocities against your people but their decedents. In the end every parcel of modern day Turkey once belonged to some other race, be it Greeks, Armenians, Assyrians etc. Why stop with just giving the Armenians their historical homelands. Istanbul was once the capital of Greece, lets also restore it to its historical owners. And with time lets become a 50 million plus ( not counting the Kurds ) country-less population and go back to Central Asia. I am sure they will accept us right away.
It is your every right to seek justice, but seek justice not revenge. Wanting your historical lands back will only cause the suffering of around 10 million people, who have really done nothing to you except being the decedents of people who wronged 90 years ago. Armenians have my full support in wanting justice, but if it is revenge you want. I am a fool and the policies of my government have been right all along.
It is also very ironic to read some posts that state Turkey was not a good ally, because it did not let the U.S. use its territory to invade Iraq and then go back and state that justice must be served for humanitarian reasons so the U.S. must acknowledge the genocide of Armenians and make it a part of its foreign policy. In what way is it humanitarian to attack a country to steal its natural resources?
I do feel and understand what Boyajian is saying however I have to agree with MJM…
I tried to have a dialogue with a Turk.. .she left Turkey many years ago and even though she herself did not agree how TUrkey is running the country, she deeply believes that as a Turk she should not be responsible for repaying the Armenians ..and that her ancestors were murdered by Greeks as well …..and that she does not feel she is obligated to do anything in that regards…according to her both sides suffered…..She believes we need to move on and concentrate on the future.. To her past should remain past… I don’t blame her.. this is all she heard and knew…however, just like her, I am sure many Turks will not listen to logic.. they believe it was a war and what is in the past should stay in the past… I tried to explain and maybe it was my fault for not doing a great job but i could not continue as I was getting very frustrated with her mind set… she did express to me that she likes Armenians and she works with many of them but how she views this issue is a different matter… It will take time and efforts to change minds of those who do not see how it happened. and God knows how long it will take to turn some segments of the Turkish society to have a huge influence on their govt..but then again everything is possible…
i have to say I am more inclined how MJM thinks.. we need immediate actions and cut any corners that will not produce results… and i believe a dialogue may not be the best option for the results we are looking for right now…however, I respect both Boyajian’s and Stephen’ opinion and input…
Gayane
Tuna….
You speak of revenge???? Hmmmm… very interesting.. did we not explain to you Tuna that wanting what was ours and NOT YOURS is not revenge??? how can you come here and tell the descendents of those people your beloved Turkey stole from and now benefiting greatly that what we are requesting is revenge and not justice? can you honestly say that what you have now is solely due to your hard earned cash? can you honestly say your govt created everything that you enjoy right now from hard work and hard labor? I say BS…Wake up and smell the foul Turkish coffee Tuna… what you know is what your govt wants you to know… what you have is not yours and will never be yours.. whether it was inflicted by your generation or by your ancestors…no difference… why don’t you tell Germany to collect everything that she paid to the Jews.. The current German govt did not commit the crime but they repaid the Jews.. why is that TUNA? did you ask yourself? Do you know why?
Well it is kind of ironic that you speak of every parcel in Turkey belonging to either a Greek, Assyrian and Armenian… Well that is true…and your govt has not stopped taking from Greeks, Assyrians and Armenians to this day.. they still throw their claws to grab whatever is left..like Cyprus, like with blockading our borders.. ect.. ect… can you see how evil your govt is?? and unfortunately you are the descendent of such evil if you continue to speak of such words as revenge to us and continue the denial of such aweful actions…
Anyway..
God Bless
Tuna, I disagree. Wanting restitution of what was stolen is not revenge, it is universally understood as justice. You are fooling yourself if you think otherwise. You also fail to understand that the Kemalist government that replaced the Ottomans and Young Turks, and all subsequent governing bodies since the establishment of the modern Turkish Republic have participated in a deliberate cover-up of the truth in order to continue to benefit from the ‘spoils’ gained during the genocide. Guilt was spilled like seeds across your nation and you all eat the fruit of the trees that grew from those seeds. if you call yourself Turkish, you share in this guilt. You may prefer to disassociate yourself from this, but your great grandfather’s crimes are your inheritance, and with it comes the responsibility to face justice. To think otherwise is cold-hearted denial.
If this is the best that an educated, ‘open-minded Turk’ can do, than maybe mjm has a point about dialogue!
Tuna: Gayane replied to you in full. Here are a couple of additions from me. By “murderer” I’m referring to the Turkish state whose governments never accepted the guilt for mass murdering millions of innocent Armenians. By not repenting for the crimes of predecessor governments every modern-day Turkish government becomes an accomplice in murder. If you ever familiarized yourself with the 1948 UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, you should know that the Convention particularly states that the prescribed punishment [for committing genocide] is not subject to the limitations of time and place. Therefore, your ill argument about “noone being alive today who was involved in the deportation and genocide of the Armenians” doesn’t hold ground. If noone who was involved in the deportation and genocide of the Armenians is alive today, why wouldn’t your government acknowledge the internationally accepted fact? What is it afraid of? The perpetrators are dead, aren’t they? Besides, you’re talking as if it were some individuals involved in the deportation and genocide of the Armenians. Far from being so. It was an official Ittihadist government of Turkey (then Ottoman empire) that was involved in the mass annihilation, therefore modern Turkey, as a successor state, bears full responsibility for the crime. You further state that what Armenians seek is impossible. Why, Tuna? Why is it impossible for modern Turks to say: “we apologize for the crime of our grandparents”? Is it too much for Armenians to seek? And why restoring justice for the millions of slaughtered Armenians is considered “revenge”? And where in ancient history Western Armenian lands were ever “Turkish soil”? You’re reluctant of giving back lands that your ancestors stole from Armenians, but why can’t you understand that those lands never actually belonged to the Turks? You are talking about “revenge” that you think I advocate, but look upon yourself, aren’t you covering mass theft of lands, houses, pastures, properties, bank accounts, and insurance indemnities by your grandparents? Thank you at least for accepting that every parcel of modern-day Turkey once belonged to other, more ancient people and for the implication that Turks are newcomers to these lands (by fire and sword, mind you). Constantinople was the capital of the Byzantine empire, but accept that Turks have captured the city, they enslaved indigenous peoples inhabiting these lands for millennia. Now you want descendants of these people to just forget about it? Will never happen. I’m not suggesting Turks to return to Central Asia from where they invaded Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau, but I want your nation to mature enough to understand that for the grief, occupation, enslavement, physical annihilation, and destruction of cultural heritage of other peoples, you must say “ We Are Sorry.” This is not happening, Tuna, because you consider an apology below your national ego. The problem is with unrepentant Turks, not those who long for an apology or for their ancestral lands. You admit that it is my right to seek justice for my relatives who were burnt alive in a church by Turkish gendarmes, but I can’t seek revenge. I accept it. But isn’t receiving an apology from your State a part of my search for justice? Aren’t retributions for the wealth your grandparents have stolen from Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, a part of justice? If these are elements of “revenge,” as you think, please lay out what the elements of justice are, as you see them? To shut the h*** up about 90% of the nation murdered and three-quarters of ancestral Armenia stolen? Is this justice the Turkish way? You seem to be chagrined by the U.S. attacking Iraq and stealing its natural resources… Can you imagine the magnitude of Armenians’ grief about having subjected to Turkish butchery and never receiving an apology for that? Is this humanitarian to you?
Tuna writes:
It is your every right to seek justice, but seek justice not revenge. Wanting your historical lands back will only cause the suffering of around 10 million people, who have really done nothing to you except being the decedents of people who wronged 90 years ago. Armenians have my full support in wanting justice, but if it is revenge you want. I am a fool and the policies of my government have been right all along.
I have to ask you Tuna, if not restitution of what was stolen, than what justice do you suggest? Armenians do not seek to inflict suffering on 10 million Turks and Kurds. We want what is rightfully ours. Any suffering by Turks is ultimately the fault of your duplicitous governments. Remember, had Armenians been spared the horror of Genocide, they would also amount to at least 10 million hard-working citizens of Turkey today. The eastern hinterlands of your nation would have benefited from the growth and progress that educated and productive Armenians would bring to the soil that has been nourished by their ancestors blood, sweat, and tears for thousands of years.
Dear GAYANE.God Bless? to whom to the wolves?latter are what they are,will not change.
Up above Miachkani,mjm,this that all have SOMETHING TO SAY and most likely 90% of what they say ,mean is to the benefit of the Armenian people and reborn RA/Artsakh.
However, they must realize that our political parties-whether they like it or not-are there,also establishments that for long helped shape whatever we have now in diaspora.
Note I shall from now on write diaspora ,not with capital letter.For it is NOT WELL ORGANZIED.it needs to be re-organized .Otherwise without A WORKING CAPITAL, no BIZness can be accomplished. This phraseology for those who will continue to read this.
We need ..a ¨National Investment Trust Fund¨not to mistake w/the All AÇrmenia Fund that is open end and is doing its bit..No,this will not be like Donating,rather Investing!!! to whom to where by whom?
i start with latter, by PCA´s(Professional Colleagiues Associations¨¨ of which we already have 5 on the scene, need ten more.These, in all Armenian-dense townships,globally.What Harut Sassounian is advocating ,is nothing new he is bent on Elections and instead of through political parties and the like he goes public 20,000 Armenians with one vote..TO WHOMitors, self appointed spokesmen, this that union´s BOSSES,plus Bishops and Benefactors(as Ara Baliozian has been triumpeting for yrs).These are our Armenian Traditional ones while he is ocating to bring in New such.
I am not Contra to his and to the PRESENT SYSTEM either.I cannot ,they have been there for over a century and HAVE DONE THEIR BEST, whether good or not so good.Thence…mine is in PARALLEL with these and I insist that they stay and thank them all,hoping they achieve more…but just wish to tag along with them with my proposed 100,000 strong members(to be foremed ) PCA´s, we have now !.The health/Medical,2.The Engineers& sciences,3.The BAR, 4,The Sportive 5 the Jewlellers,this shoulkd encompass all Furnishigns. then 6th will be Tranpost and Trave/tourism,7th,Thje Cosntruction field,.8th,Banking & Finance, 9th Industreis 6 Mines,10th, Communications IT,11th, Press and Advertising,12thEducation& Culture8amalgamation of thsse,13th.Food and catering,14th Environmental& Forestry,15th the Agricultural. We have to form ñlatter 10 then these for first time will mingle in their work type,WHICH IS MORE logical, THAN SAY A PHYSICIAN WITH A cONSTRUCTION FIELD WORKER, exchange ideas help ea other and as Novelty -besides electing Board- elect 3 person delegates to the Inter professional ,Their ELITE,elected for their worth.What worth? one most advanced in his/her profession,one culturally nat´l Int´l & w/neetworking capacity(as example Harut Sassounian become elected in his group, since he has achieved as a good Press person and also with networking capacity as ex-officio spokesman etc., Thir person of the 3 Economically most advanced.These, then cordially ask the political parties to join up with their 3 person ELIE, and also request the Spiritural fathers to send in ONE each , i.e. the Apostolic, catholic and Prespyterian. This my dear compatriots will be our long awaited for TRUE PARTICIPATION AND REPRESENTATION OF our most important Collectivity,I dare say 100,000 strong. Both human Resources and endowed with ECONOMIC MEANS. First we elect a small group of a sub-committe if you wish , who will go request our 5/6 magnates to INVEST not donate and through their monetary experts each couple of hundred million dollars,The Manoogians,The Vatche Manoukian of U.K. Kirk kirkorian(harut can kindly interven, since I shall do so withy th Ms Luois Simon manoogian, then Euardo Eernekian B-Aires(I have peron in mind who can approcxach him,The Cafesjian Gerard Foundation,forming the NUCLEUS with working capital of around a billion dolalrs, then these will ask Armenian millionaires to chip in all the way down to ONe thousand dollars invstors.You go calculate how big this FUND will become.the monetary experts of the NUCLEUS will reinvest in secure Govt. Bonds ,rendering some 5%,of which half more or less will be distributed to investors the other added to capital and ..begin to FUND, nay support REPATRIATION No 1. >No.2 all small and mediate entrepreneurs in RA7Artslkah/javakh,also bear in mind the FUND is for all ARMENIANS,and with headquarters in gEVA,CH-tasx free country and can attend to needs say of a badly suffered from act of God in Sydney or Marseille. or Artsakh.For all ARMENITY…near forgot,We can then cleverley utilize part of earnings of the FUND to support OUR CAUSE IN INTERNATIONL INSTANCES, AS WE FIND RIGHT AND CORRECT.Not to repeatedly give to people who DO NOT PERFORM.Fact is we can wheel and deal like it is said If ,example Indonesia not only promises, or Nigeria to vote for us at U:N: then we can loan through govt. channels to them at low interest some fudns,TO BE RETURNED indeed.tHESE UNDER OUR TOP NOTCH monetary esperts CHOSEN BY THE ABOVE MAGNATES, not me or you.For they know better whom to a`ppoint–
My friends if you have questions for above please direct your e-amils so i can cc to you myVERY LENGTHY EXPLANATIONS,rather already prepared MANIFESTO!!!
Hama Haigagani sIRO,
Gaydzag Palandjian
The current German govt did not commit the crime but they repaid the Jews.. why is that TUNA? did you ask yourself? Do you know why?
In the 1950s, Israeli authorities made a claim to the four powers occupying post-war West and East Germany regarding compensation and reimbursement.The Soviets rebuffed the claims while the other three powers agreed that West Germany should be made liable for payment against Israel for the crimes it had committed. Therefore, West Germany did not pay the Jews out of its kind heart, but was made to pay by its three occupiers. I just have one question, who is going to make Turkey pay for the genocide? Europe? The U.S.? Who? One is a relic of the past which has no power soft or hard and the other is only concerned with maintaining its hegemony. As long as we have a nuclear ambitious Iran as a neighbor I see no chance of it changing its strategic relationship with Turkey. The only way, Armenians are going to get justice is by Turkey becoming more democratic and more open as a result and become secure enough to admit its past. But from what I can know, Armenians are one of the major opponents of Turkey’s EU bid. As long as the people of Turkey don’t become true democrats, no outside power’s policy will bend us to accept their will. Last quarter Turkey grew by 11 per cent. It is the fastest growing and developing country in the OECD. It is rising. When the U.S. used to tell us to jump we used to ask how high, those days are long past. If you cannot see the changes in Turkey, then the policy of Armenians seeking justice will fail. I am all for justice, but when it comes to the territorial integrity of Turkey then that is just out of the question. Nevertheless you have every right to desire it and I have every right to keep it.
And regarding Cyprus, not even the most blind observer can state that there were no inter-communal violence in that Island before the arrival of the Turkish army. Now there is peace. And the events of the basketball match between Karsiyaka and a Greek Cypriot team showed very clearly that there is too much hatred for the Island to unite.
MK, I agree with you. They are all liars only out for votes. Armenians helped Obama get in BUT does anyone know that American Turks helped too and I believe in heavier numbers. Did the Armenian leadership really think that Turks would lay down and fall asleep on this. Morals, what’s that? It is a fantasy ingrained in the American belief that politicians care. Please see what I wrote on the matter. I do not have the answer on how to appoach but I know the same old same old did not work. as I have mentioned before, if you keep on using the same tactics that did not work what makes anyone think they will work now after decades. Armenians, sorry to admit, were so divided at one time it was terrible to speak to a Ramgavar or Hanchag. I recall very well. It wasn’t too long ago. You would meet someone Armenian and ask what church they went to. If it was St James/ Sourp Hagop in Watertown, you were a Ramgavar and St Stephans/Sourp Stepanots. I do not know how things are today but if the same division exsists there is no chance of getting rcognition.
mjm, please read what I posted previously to MK. I do not have a specific plan other than letting others know how our government has given away billions and billions of our HARD EARNED AMERICAN TAX DOLLARS to a country that dictates their values, as I mentioned about the restriction of air space and Air Base. Especially in these difficult economic times where Americans have to loose their homes and the prospect for work is bleek. Armenians are smart and should be able to come up with a way to aproach Genocide recognition that may include throwing away money. I am sure Armerican would not like to know that our government is not only giving away money but also dictating to us. Also, just because we have all these politicians on our side (???) that means absolutly nothing to me!
Tuna: Your observation about Germany repaying the Jews out of despair and coercion and not out of their kind heart and remorse is lop-sided and superficial. First, German reparations actually started in the mid-1970s, i.e. long after Germany was in WWII ruins and contingent upon the occupier forces. Second, German Chancellor bowed to the monument for massacred Jews also in the mid-1970s, when post-war Germany has become one of the most developed and least independent nations in the world. And third, roughly a decade after that the German government was courageous enough to adopt a state legislation that would punish anyone who’d deny the fact of the Jewish Holocaust. You know what the difference is? Germans are mature enough as a nation to be able to admit wrongdoing, whereas relative newcomer Turks, an essentially made-up nation, are still in the infant stage, suffering from inferiority and guilt complexes. And, no, Tuna, for Armenians to get justice by daydreaming about Turkey becoming “more democratic, more open, and secure enough to admit its past” is not the only way. There are many other ways, and some of them have already yielded tangible results. Turkey’s becoming “more democratic, more open, and secure enough” is not Armenians’ prerogative. It’s the prerogative of the Turkish people. Personally, I don’t see this happening and have doubts this will ever happen even if Turkey grows by 111 percent, for a simple reason. Because the Seljuk-Ottoman-Kemalist mentality is so entrenched in your psyche that even with 100 percent GNP growth you’ll still be frightened to admit that your ancestors were invaders, occupiers, looters, rapists, thieves, and mass murderers. This is a huge psychological burden, and I personally think it will prevent you from becoming a truly democratic and open society any time soon. As for “secure enough to admit its past,” come on, man, you were an empire, for Jesus’s sake, extending your boundaries for the sake of security from Arabia to Middle East to Europe, but still were considered a prison of nations and a sick man of Europe, barring all non-Muslim ancient peoples from basic civil rights, giving them a humiliating millet status, ultimately massacring all of them, and now depicting their cultural heritage as Turkish. Your insecurity stems from your attitudes towards indigenous peoples who inhabited the lands you stole and now live on for thousands of years; your sick sense of superiority over peoples who contributed heavily into the world civilization, such as Greeks, Assyrians, and Armenians. I don’t see anything has changed in your mentality. Some people, like Stepan or Boyajian, disagree, but I cannot accept it as an honest societal change when in the 21st century a nation still kills its human rights defenders, deports its Nobel Prize winners, kills Christian priests, conceals its history, the cultural heritage of peoples whose monuments are spread all over the country, threatens truth-speakers with Article 301, and suppresses the rights of its largest non-Turkish minority. I try, but I don’t see the change. Even restoring Akhtamar was internationally admitted as a publicity stunt, not a genuine desire to repent for expelling and massacring local Armenians, detonating their churches, monasteries, burning their libraries and educational centers.
Tuna, we’ve waited for 95 years for your apology and never received one, and to suggest that we wait until Turkey becomes “more democratic, more open, and secure” is, to me, an attempt to evade and prolong justice for so long in the hope that future generations will eventually forget your ancestors’ crimes. But guess what? If this hasn’t happened for the past 95 years, believe me it won’t happen in the future on which you may be laying your hopes…
I meant to say “least dependent nations” above
In what way is it humanitarian to attack a country [Iraq] to steal its natural resources?
Tuna, when the U.S. invested heavily in the formation of Turkey’s armed forces, saved your country from Communism, and continues to make substantial contributions to the Turkish economy and the fight against terrorism that you, Turks, use to suppress the Kurdish aspirations for self-determination, you wouldn’t talk about humanitarianism, right? By the way, part of the U.S. money is the taxed hard-earned income of 1.5 million-strong community of Armenian Americans. Ever considered that?
Hats off to mjm: excellent arguments and counter-arguments to our Armenian friends and to our Turk neighbor: crisp logic and delivery.
We need more like you.
And despite the gist of his arguments, i.e. “…what’s done is done,… sorry, not my generation’s fault,… let’s move on …”, I believe Tuna Tangor should be recognized for his sane discourse: most Turks that comment here are delusional: the very first sentence they produce states a variation of ‘…your so-called Armenian genocide…’, and it goes downhill from there …
Apres Mjm jan… well said..
Obviously Tuna does not understand the true history and the background of his own govt and believes that Armenians are brewing revenge vs justice.. a True Turk talking that is for sure.. but unfortunate for him, he is definintely delusional ….
Avery… well said…
G
Tuna, no need for me to be repetitive. mjm did a superb job of articulating the core of who we are. There is one point that I must respond to. You said,” I am all for justice, but when it comes to the territorial integrity of Turkey, then that is just out of the question. Nevertheless….“. This is typical of your very condescending attitude. if you had the slighest idea of the term justice, then you would understand the hypocricy of your statement. There were three immediate effects of the genocide… the horrible loss of life, the stealing of an historic homeland and the confiscation of property. What is this justice you say you advocate? You steal something and then you say there can be justice without returning it? This is a warped sense of justice and is at the foundation of our problem. I do advocate dialogue with enlightened members of your society in order to advance our cause, but in your view I can only see the absence of understading. Recognition will ease our pain, but reparitions ensures justice.
There is no point for me to give counter statements, because my intentions were to learn and not to argue. As I said before and will state again, I am all for justice. A justice that should heal and NOT PUNISH those that had nothing to do with the mass deportations and genocide. Sadly with the current mentality of both Turks and Armenians, I do not see justice or reconciliation happening in my lifetime. Hopefully in another 90 years things will have changed for the better. I will not reply to any other post after this, since it really is not being constructive.
Tuna: I repeat, your State has to do with mass deportations and genocide because, as a successor-state to the Ottoman empire, it has never condemned them and has never apologized to the victims. This is Justice for me. It has nothing to do with Punishment. Goodbye.
Tuna,
Although you said you won’t reply to any more posts, if you change your mind, I would like to know how you think justice should be restored. What is your idea of justice? There is nothing that we want more than to be good friends with our neighbor Turks and move on. Both Armenians and Turks will benefit from it. However, this is not possible until justice is served and we have to come to a common denominator on this.
How do you imagine justice being served?
Gina asked Tuna,” What is your idea of justice?”
Seereli Gina, allow me to answer that question, Since Tuna called it ‘QUITS.’
Their idea of justice is: A DECISION IN TURKS’ FAVOR. THEIR-WAY or HIGHWAY.
Top Jay, Gina,mjm et al.It is unbelievable how -not only here,but on all such forums-Armenians are in quest of an affirmative response or even a favourable stance of a turk,or even a non turk(like one that is a French national,with due respect to him) It is quite obvious we are all thirsty to hear one or more that will side with us.Understandably so, as the major part of their (turks) Elite/Gov.t functionaries,diplomats and even intellectual class stick to their version as a rule,while we try to EDUCATE THEM.
Educate whom,one would ask , the inheritors of the Ottoman Empire or pseudo- Kemalists, or even_if you have forgotten-Turgut Ozals,Ecevits, General Kenan Evrens..the list is very long .All stout t u r k s .In the interim now what a kind ,rather JUST french intellectual wrote and I quote:-urk is a turk is a turk and another such ¨¨there is no trace of greenery here,the turks must have passed from here4¨to that effect. My humble suggestion to my dear compatriots is to think of ways to bring them to knees in other ways.Example:- Indeed,beofe example get well organized and with Economic Power established in a n All Armenian ¨National Investment Trust Fund¨:-O.K. Let us pick up where left off, as to other ways:-
There are many a nation/state with their own such grievances from others and/or better explained suffered from neighbours and will gladly vote for us at the U.N.No need to name them all here ,quite a few of these in Africa, the Middle East and the Far East.Ask me I shall.Then when economically well furbishesd(see above) make the govt. of these aware that Armenians have now also (like the Jews) something attractive to consider. Such a sGrants, Loans etc., and also cooperation in making their plights brought to surface and to Justice. Why the closest such , are the Kurds.Most here forget,while talking about the Wilson´s Armenia(envisaged by him) that will gladly do so.Theirs has a sadly ended history too,since at first they thought by joining up with them-after millenia living alongside armenians- would give them privileges..then completely disilllusioned when for the past 70 odd yeasrs or so they all suffered from turkish wrath and injustice.Now ready to side with us. If we are to advance in Politics,we must first of all accept humbly that politics and Economy go hand in hand.Just like for beginners Culture and Politics go haand in hand .latter was the beginning,or is even now too.You see kurds attained some level of culture, before they realized that they without culture and registering some educational level, they could then advance their political issues. Anyhow, time is to think as described.Leave the turco-azeris at their whims,their way of ¨cabeza de turco¨mentality-¨hard headed turk¨.This phrase in Spain was untill lately very much in use(it began when on the high seas, the spanish Armada defeatesd the Ottoman one,denominated in books¨La Batalla Del Lepanto¨when the spanish armada admiral asked them to surrender,telling them they were no match…and the Ottomans did not accept.
At any rate we can indeed achieve quite a bit more if we depend pon our OWN ORGANIZED HUMAN RESOURDCES AND ….ECONOMIC POWER AND begin to deal and wheel on the intxernational political scene-no,not amongst the Super powers or powers that are,but amongst on more or less same level as ours,at present,
Hama Haigagani SIRO
and for a renewed 2011 Strategy for Armenians
Tuna, I am sorry that you chose to leave the discussion. I hope you might still read this. You have tried to share honestly, straight forwardly and in a respectful manner. I appreciate this even though I have not agreed with or liked everything you have said.
One question I wish we could hear more from you on is what your idea of justice is?
You reject the idea of land transfer and you don’t want to see ‘innocent’ people pay for their ancestors crimes. You and I and many others here differ on the notion of innocence. Armenians hold the Turkish Republic responsible not individual Turks. Why should the republic not pay for the crime it is still reaping the benefits of? Is it possible for the Republic to pay for its crime without individual Turks being affected?
And what of the innocent Armenian men, women, children and elderly who were killed in the genocide? Why should this crime go unpunished? Why should, we, the descendants of these victims and survivors be robbed of our inheritance and birthright without the guilty being brought to justice.
Please be kind enough to answer this question which has been posed by several conversing with you here. You state what you think is wrong or unacceptable to you, but you don’t offer any idea of what you think would be a just resolution to what you admit was a terrible crime. Maybe you don’t have an alternative idea, just an idea of what you don’t want to see happen? But how can Armenians and Turks move forward if Turks only reject Armenians’ claims and don’t seriously offer alternative ideas of a fair resolution? Do you honestly believe that Turkey can come to terms with this past without experiencing some painful concessions? How can Armenia pay with 1.5 million lives and Turkey/Turks expect to continue to prosper from this?
Mjm jan.. Agreed.
Boyajian jan… here is the answer.. TUNA or any extremist Turk on our sites do not have any alternatives.. they basically want their way or no way… It is that simple..
Like any Turk or Ragnar, once they have no where to go after receiving facts and data, raw facts and data, they just hide their heads in the sand. because they do not have anything constructive to say anymore…They know pretty well that Armenians are open to have conversation unlike a Turk who always throws a bone and then goes hiding behind their conformtable loghum Turkey but they refuse to continue.. typical…..
in any case, I want to wish all of my friends here a Happy New Year.. May this New Year bring success to all of us and prosperous year for not only our people but our nation…
God Bless.
Gayane
So right Gayane, jan. Sad, but truly the pattern we see with Turkish contributors here. Only weak concessions admitting that Armenians were massacred, and then the wish to make Armenians and their demands disappear and for all to put things in the past and go on as if this abuse of our people and nation never happened. Not even the willingness to express a sincere, simple apology in 95 years of living off of what was stolen from my ancestors.
Tuna, you speak as if your eyes are open, but you still don’t see. If you did see, you would weep.
Here’s a truth I believe in…Turkey will not get away with these murders, she will pay eventually. And unfortunately, facing the truth of your nation’s past and repaying her debt cannot be a pain-free process. How can the knowledge that your ancestors were the authors of one of the worst crimes in human history, the wanton destruction of a nation, not cause you and your countrymen some pain? If it does cause you pain, consider yourself fortunate.
I repeat:
…the Kemalist government that replaced the Ottomans and Young Turks, and all subsequent governing bodies since the establishment of the modern Turkish Republic have participated in a deliberate cover-up of the truth in order to continue to benefit from the ‘spoils’ gained during the genocide. Guilt was spilled like seeds across your nation and you all eat the fruit of the trees that grew from those seeds. if you call yourself Turkish, you share in this guilt. You may prefer to disassociate yourself from this, but your great grandfather’s crimes are your inheritance, and with it comes the responsibility to face justice. To think otherwise is cold-hearted denial.
To all those who deny the Armenian people justice:
Listen carefully!! The posts offered by mjm, Gayane, Gina, Boyajian and others are the reasons why your efforts to prevent justice will fail. Their conviction and unrelenting committment to see the truth prevail represents the vanguard of our nation. They and other like them will continue to inspire new generatons of Armenians throughout the world to carry the torch until that day, by the grace of God, our just cause will be realized.
Pardon me while I celebrate the entrance of 2011……another year of hope and opportunity for our honorable and faithful people. Happy New year!!
Well, it did not take too long for Tuna to figure out what goes on here. Smart man. It takes much longer for some of us! And this was a person who was pretty much in full agreement with the Armenian position and he is called an extremist! What I am curious is where are the ones among you who have some link to reality, you know, where are the grown ups?
Stepan, I agree with you, honorable and faithfull people but after 90+ years the USA is not even close to calling it genocide only empty promises. I don’t believe in the words of politicans. In the many discussions with my now deceased father on the genocide I would bring up the question of why the Armenians did not act sooner. His answer was that the Armenians were too weakend to do anything. To me they blew it when they had the chance. Old sayings are sometimes very useful and true such as “strike while the iron is hot.” I hope I am 100% wrong in my assessment but this is the way I see it.
Murat,
The real reason why Tuna left and is not back is because he/she cannot offer any solution to the situation that will truly restore justice without causing inconvenience to Turks. As simple as that. “Forgive and forget” is what you all want from Armenians.
Murat, you keep coming to this site for what purpose, exactly…?
Aweeee.. here he is… Mr Murat ladies and gents……
FYI: It is not the fact that Tuna figured out what goes on here Murat..you know why? because there is nothing to figure out MURAT.. Genocide happened, it happened by your ancestors hands, you and your generation has been benefited and still benefits from the wealth stolen from the Armenians, and it is time to apologize and repay.. Very straight forward and simple.. Nothing to figure out..
But what Tua figured out was that his efforts to throw a bone in the hopes of we will bite on it did not work.. just like any other Turk who does not believe he or she should be part of the repayment process… it is because you people believe that as the descendents of the cold hearted murderors nation you should not be responsible for repaying the descendents of all those innocent people killed under your ancestors swords…but that is not how it will be… SIR
I believe we have 2 scenarios…as to why a Turk or someone who thinks like Murat, Robert or Ragnar or Tuna would leave a discussion instead of staying among us and attempt to understand and be open to the truth…..
one scenario..at least i hope this is the case but most likely knowing Murat and his types, it may not be the case….. (but then again i have faith and hope that many more Turks who do fight for justice and truth will emerge from that poisoneous nation)….anyway.. some Turks come in here and throw nonsense and see how fast it will stick …then having a conversation or dialogue with the commentators on these sites, they get information that counter attack their comments and shed some light to the lies they were fed as children.. this sparks some sort of light in them as human beings, something tells them the information presented here have ground and truth in it… and it gets them thinking.. then they realize that instead of fighting against the the truth tide that will eventually come down with a strong force and destroy those who go against it, it is better to leave and not continue… again realizing that maybe the attitude that was brought into our discussions were wrong and should be adjusted..and that the information they know is not accurate …then they leave…..I respect that Turk for doing so. .. i know i know…this is a far stretched scenario and i doubt some Turks on these sites could possibly have enough intellect and heart to realize that…
Second scenario… some Turks jump into our discussions without any facts or data except rrogance, hate and ignorance….then they find out that their comments are nothing but bunch of nonsense.then having to debate with those who know the history of that era inside out is a no win situation…. but instead of trying to understand and admit that Armenians are after justice and not revenge, these Turks continue to have their Ottoman mentality and refuse to accept the history and the consequences of what their ancestors did..well if they refuse to change their attitude and adjust their hate filled and “no we are not going to pay” demeanor obviously will not have anything constructive to say right? right..which is why they simply leave the discussion…
So your argument Murat that we are not grown ups and that is the reason you Turks who are set in your own ways leave our discussions are inaccurate, stupid and ignorant…just my thought…
fortunately, we have Turks that comment on these sites who are intelligent and we see glimpse of hope that they are Turks who will not go with the flow of what their govt dictates because they are unique individuals and they are on the side of the truth and justice… because they are willing to be open and understanding..THANK GOD TO THEM…
AMEN to that Stepan jan.. AMEN!!!!
Hye, getting back to the ‘headline’ of this article “PELOSI FAILS TO SCHEDULE VOTE RECEIVES PRAISE FROM ASSEMBLY”. It occurs to me that it may very well have been that at the Assembly someone ‘pulled the plug’… someone who’d had it up to ‘where’ with the ‘off the wall’ Assembly leadership…. Manooshag
Dear All,
First of all happy New Year for everybody and Shnorhavor Surp Znunt to my fellow Armenians on this site. I preferred to address as “dear all”, since I find it incorrect to give names specially when we have a disagreement on some of the point of views which are expressed on this site. After all, these are JUST point of views, regardless of we agree with them or not , confrontation, insult towards the point of view expressed by others not only diminishes the purpose of what we are trying to do here- if it is to facilitate recognition of the Armenian Genocide-, but also at the end of the day that leaves us just speaking with each other rather than persuading the other side the correctness of our point of view . I find it rather surprising when, even advocators of “dialog” find themselves falling into this trap, after their initial, rather open minded comments. After saying this I must say that I wish someone like Tuna is still around and at least will have a chance to understand why Armenian Genocide issue is not only matter of acceptance but also requires justice to be served. Any Turk who is TRULY interested in finding a solution to this issue rather than simply “throwing a bone” – as being expressed by some- to the Armenian side, must come to terms with this reality. If any Turk is really interested in finding a solution rather than accusing the Armenians for not being “grownups”- as expressed by others- because we are not contend with your forwardness, must first understand what the cost of the Genocide was, to the Armenian Nation besides the cost of 1.5 million lives. After saying this I recognize that:
1-People like Tuna are a new breath of Turks who at least have the courage to demonstrate their feelings by accepting what happened in 1915 as a “genocide”. This demonstrates a step forward, and we should take this on the face value, rather than a meaningless expression of sympathy. These type of progressive thinking Turks have been growing in numbers in recent years (go ahead hawks call me “naive” if you choose, but I do hope those who will start calling me names, are at least spending as much time every day studying the change in Turkey). I happen to have a vested interest in this change, since I have more than 60+30 thousand sisters and brothers living there along with close to 40 churches , a hospital and 18 schools to name the few. Regardless of -now almost paralyzed- TC 301, the issue of the Armenian Genocide is now being discussed openly in Turkey – with a bias of course- but it is at least being discussed, on TV ,radio talk shows, newspapers etc. This was unheard of few years ago. Since 2005 Armenian Conference in Istanbul, it appears a new thinking is prevailing on the part of the current Turkish Government, although government representatives may express themselves differently in public, appears to be taking a different approach in the back ground, by allowing public discussion on this topic. This may be a pure political move, but the facts are facts and this is a CHANGE. I know some of my fellow Armenians may strongly disagree with my comment, but to those I will simply ask them: Could you imagine, or have you met any Turk like Tuna to come out and accept the validity of the Armenian Genocide 20 years ago? 10 years ago? If your answer is a “No” to this question, than you must ask yourselves the causes behind this new approach. Although Turkey’s EU dreams may appear the real cause behind this, I think, the reasons are far more complex than that. In my mind, Gul/ Erdogan duet to reach their goals to make Turkey a regional power player, have come to the understanding that they have to face history one way another if they want to avoid black mail at every turn from the other players, when Turkey tries to challenge them in foreign policy matters eg Iran, Israel, Syria etc. Furthermore, it appears they may be willing to blame all the ills of 1915 on their opposition the Ithaatci movement. But before any attempt on government’s part can be made, first people must reach to an understanding of the new reality which dwarfs 95 years of indoctrination. Needless to say damage control is also very important part of this political move, since while fixing the eye brow they don’t want to damage the eye. Therefore people like Tuna are made to believe that, although the validity of the Armenian Genocide may be correct, it belongs to the Ottoman era, therefore today’s RofT should bare no responsibility. What is forgotten here is that 1915 is not an isolated case neither in the history of Ottoman Empire, nor in its continuation in the Turkish Republic, since the dominating concept in all these events were creating a influential Turkish “millet”, “Turkification of Anatiolia” ” Sermayenin Turkleshtilmesi ” ( capital moving from the minority hands to Turkish hands) to replace the minorities. Therefore, Tuna although I appreciate your courage and calling the 1915 events in Anatolia “the Armenian Genocide” , I do not agree with you that “justice cannot be served nowadays, since this generation has nothing to do with it”, simply because it has a lot to do with it ! Your national wealth is build on it! Although 1915 the Armenian Genocide was the worst of its kind, this event is one of many which took place both in the Empire as well as the Republic:
1895-1897 Hamidyen massacres
1909 Adana Massacres
1915 Armenian Genocide
1941 “XX kura” mandatory draft of all none Muslim male between ages of 20-40, not in a soldier uniform but in street cleaners(chopcu) uniform
1942 Varlik Vergisi( mainly none Muslim wealth tax)
6-7 September 1955 burning of the Greek and Armenian business’ in Istanbul because of a bomb implemented in Ataturk’s home in Selaniko by a Turkish MIT (secret police) agent to create this pre meditated vandelism in Istanbul against the minority businesses.
1964 deportation of Greek business people from Istanbul due to the Cypress conflict
Tuna if you will notice and read about above events among others ,you will see that there have been a systematic afford on the part of Ottomans as well as the Turkish Republic to minimize the none Muslims in the country and in a concentrated afford to transfer the wealth from our hands to the Muslim Turks in a very unjust way. Therefore I encourage you to go and research about the above first, before saying that “your hard earned dollars could not be used to serve justice”. Nobody is saying any individual should pay for his ancestors wrong doing, but certainly the state which planned and caused these events must pay for it, since if nothing else, it collected tax from all those, who prospered due to their newly found wealth stolen/confiscated from Armenians and others in a very unjust way. Furthermore payment can be made in many forms and means, for example once the lost wealth of the Armenian subjects of the Ottoman Empire due to the Genocide is calculated-which should not be that difficult to do- than after the initial payment, Turkey can pay Armenia part of is installments in the form of free passage through her highways and usage of her ports for all Armenian trucks and shipments bound to and from Armenia. If there is a will to correct the wrong, I am sure there will be a way to do it, which can be acceptable for all sides.
2-I also recognize that regardless of what the hawks among us advocate, justice in the Armenian Genocide can never be served by third countries mainly by USA ,EU, or Russia. Since at the end, these nations are simply concerned in their global political and economical interests. Human life, injustice are minimal issues for them, and none will be willing to jeopardize their well being for our cause. After all what type of binding or enforceable effect can they have anyway? Regardless of who claims what, be assured that all these nations realize that they have much more to gain from a 72 million consuming Turkish nation, rather than 3 million barely surviving Armenian nation. As far as the Diaspora ,yes maybe we have more mussel than the homeland in our respective countries, but neither our money nor our numbers are big enough to dictate foreign policy, as the other minority is able to do through wall street, media etc. Therefore what is it there to gain for the third countries if they side with us -even though historical facts are on our side- can anybody name one? I believe sooner we recognize our limitations, faster we will understand what should be our new approach on this matter. Who knows, maybe an alliance with the Turkish progressives like Tuna, Akcham, Pamuk, Deringil, Aktar, Altan and many others who are already accepting the validity of the Armenian Genocide, and are interested in to see a full blown democracy in their country, may offer a potential for the formulation of new approach in the long run. If the recognition of the Armenian Genocide and justice being served is our goal, don’t you think it is time to think about a new approach to say the least?
@ KYB
I read your post twice. First, it was very moving and secondly you made some very good arguments that I do agree with. Any Armenian possessing land registry/deeds should be compensated for monetarily. Armenian culture should be taken better care of and restoration should commence immediately. Ethnic Armenians, whichever nationality they hold should be able to visit their ancestral lands without any restrictions. I would agree to any and all compensation, except the transfer of land. As I would be unable to part with any of my body’s limbs the same goes for the territorial integrity of Turkey. I would just be unable to part with it. So when it comes to Karabakh, I do understand the arguments made by the Armenian state. I also do not see how it would be rational or humane to deport the Armenians living in the enclave and replacing them with Azeri citizens. So I do not understand why all three countries can’t come up with a solution and just accept the status quo and look towards the future.
You are right in one thing and I have to point it out. Today there is a huge transformation in Turkish society. People are able to discuss our history more openly and even criticize when necessary. We still have a long way to go, but we are going in the right direction. You can even find Taner Akcam’s books translated in Turkish, which would have been unheard of 10 years ago.
I came here not to argue, just to understand. So thank you for your post, because it really gives me hope that reconciliation between our two peoples can be possible and justice not punishment can be served.
Tuna in your comment to KYB you make the analogy of land transfer as being like separating yourself from one of your limbs. But isn’t this exactly what Turkey has done to Armenians? How is it fair to expect Armenians to accept this as a final situation? Do you not know that our ‘arms and legs’ were severed?
I thank you for spending your time thinking about ways to move our conflict toward a resolution. Thanks for recognizing the rights of Armenians to visit without restriction, to make legal claims to their property and to preserve our historical sights. Also, thanks for your open minded attitude regarding Karabagh. It gives me hope. What other compensations besides land transfer could you envision?
It sure appears to me that the dialogue between KYB and Tuna is a sort of ¨sugar coating¨issues/problems that cannot thus be solved.On the one han d KYB is praising Tuna for being MORE understanding than the common turk on the street.Indeed he is.But in a modality that suits motherland great Turkey,inheritor of Ottoman/Kemalist well polished diplomacy.In short trying to appease us(the common Armenians, so to speak,or semi intellectuals) to give in.For that is their ultiamte OBJECTIVE. Yes, even Ackcam like intellectuals. Certainly I don´t blame them.After all ,it is only natural that they defend their fatherland,whether Fascist or non-so.But let´s come clear please.
1. WE showed to Kemalist Turkey at the peak of their sway, that the Armenian spirit-especially having suffered an enormous CRIME,would not easily be wiped out of the map of the area-quite the contrary,we awaited with patience,untill we had gathered up clout-witness our Angry Armenian youngmen,who as our latest militancy(before Karabagh issue) showed to the world diplomacy ,indeed that of Republic of Turkey as well that our Quest for Justice was not over,rather it had just begun.ç
2. NK(Nagornyi Karabagh) our ARtsakh is a very old Armenian Province,albeit now and then invaded by Persians, Arabs and turco seljuc tribes.it stayed close to 90% Armenian populated.Going through very legal procedure of the prevailing soviet Law,through a plebiscite and declared independence from Azerbaijan, which anyhow was not the lawfull TERRITORIAL owner of NK.The lenin-Stalin soviet regime thinking not only azeris but also r.of Turkey would thus become¨brotherly¨neighbours with Armenians ,thus getting them(Turkey) into the soviet camp.Silly of them.They did not know that latter only believed in superiority over Armenian s(unarmed of course) and also easy to at least superficially become partners(Russo-Turkish, Kemalist-Bolshevik) duo….
3.At present thje so called Anatolia(actually Western Armenia) is populated more by K U R D S than turks or islamized Armenians,greeks Assyrians.People like above two gentlmen and in extension Turkey still wish to consider the k u r d s ( mountain turks) HUMBUG!!!! they will never change to being t u r k s .It is a pipe-dream only.
4.In order that we can really dialogue with turks in a sincere fashion8a n impossibility indeed, as long as they think for instance like follows:-¨Come to your ancestral homes(not lands ) be happy there ,we have changed etc.,
Tantamount to what they have preached all along,that is before Genocide.I refer to 1908 Young turks Revolution(fake indeed) nothing changed except they aaccomplished re`placing red sultans with a military junta or fascist dictators
I am sorry Tuna but your argument about not returning the lands is still unacceptable… because as Boyajian said very clearly and precisely, your ancestors did the exact thing to Armenians who owned and lived on those lands you are living now.. how is that fair or explainable? So even though I appreciate your concern and willing to listen and work out a solution, your arguments do not hold ground..
Thank you
Gayane
I will try to make some brief points without triggering any nerves since the issue at hand is a very sensitive one.
If I may respond to Boyajian’s question about what would count as justice: every Turkish citizen living today have in some way benefited from confiscated Armenian property (although I believe they lost more in the absence of Armenians in the long-term). Since the life and property of Ottoman Armenians were supposed to be guaranteed by the Ottoman government, we may speak of moral and legal entitlements to an official apology and financial reparations. Someone may ask, for instance, why shouldn’t Turkish citizens whose ancestors were brutalized by Armenian bands be compensated in the same manner? The reason is the active used of state resources in order to eliminate the Armenian group by the CUP administration. A citizen may still take legal action against state neglect against banditry but I believe many of the Armenian losses during WWI cannot be explained by limited state resources. As we cannot bring back the lives lost, at least we can prevent the continuation of harm. The transfer of land, however, is not a necessary component of justice in this case. I think the right to compensation derives from some certain failures in the relationship between the state and the citizen. Here the ‘state’ is the Ottoman (and thereof, Republic of Turkey) and ‘citizens’ were Ottoman subjects of Armenian descent. That the Republic of Armenia indeed represents all the ethnic Armenians today does not entitle it with any land that today belongs to Turkey. When one speaks about ‘stolen land’ one speaks about the private property belonging to Ottoman Armenians. Therefore, in addition to moral and financial compensation, justice requires a right to return, coupled with official guarantee for a safe environment and public assistance if needed.
My second point is that, the mere fact that someone is born and lived in a certain land should sufficient to render him/her a legitimate member of that community. I’m not sure if when in 2030 my country (and possibly yours) will be flooded by Asian migrants I can be as confident in believing that, but still, in principle, this seems clear to me. The fact that a Shia Lebanese is a latecomer in respect to a Christian Lebanese, or a White American to a Native American, or a Turk to an Armenian does not and should not affect the distribution of rights and duties between these people. As a Turk, I respect the fact that Kurds, Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians precede Turks in Asia Minor, excelled in many walks of life than Turks and given the land so much of their wisdom and labour. In a cultural not legal sense, Turks can only fulfil their claim to the land only if show these civilizations proper care and respect. Having said that, I still firmly believe that there is anything to gain for the ‘Armenian Cause’ by trying to open the question of sovereignty…
Finally, with regards to the ‘realpolitik vs. sincere dialogue’ debate I wish to direct your attention to a possible tension and cooperation between the two. Since the former operates by way of strategy, tactics, power relations and pragmatism and the latter simply relies on persuasion through reason and truth, in the Turkish case as some contributors have argued, interest trumps truth, so that the scope of dialogue may be limited. But ‘dialogue’ means speaking with each other, and that seems to be what we’re doing here. In my daily life, because I’m usually eager to discuss the issue of Armenian genocide with my Turkish friends (most of whom are quite well-educated and intelligent people) I began to discern a central obstacle in front of admitting bare facts like CUP’s intention to get rid of as many Armenians as possible (and the execution of it). Since they are presented with the devastation of Muslim life and property at the hand of Armenians alone, the requirements of justice seem to them as merely the continuation of status quo. At the same time, because the great majority of Armenians simply ignore desperate attempts of their ancestors to erase anything that is Turkish from Erzincan to Gyumri, they relieve themselves of necessary insight into what makes Turks so resistant against the facts. But it is the over-weighing of the Turkish suffering (who can be so objective?) makes many Turks to coin the ‘events’ as ‘mukatele’ (mutual massacre) or miss the distinction between genocide and ethnic cleansing. I accept that not everyone is ready and willing to be persuaded by reason, but realpolitik alone will not solve anything. On the contrary, it will reinforce the resolve of bigotry.
Memik: There are several serious flaws in the points you made in your comment.
In the first point, you attempt to influence our mindset to shift from land restitution to an apology and financial reparations. Armenians consider all three components as proper and adequate measures at restoring justice for them. As for “someone’s” question as to “why shouldn’t Turkish citizens whose ancestors were brutalized by Armenian bands be compensated in the same manner,” please be aware and inform your “quite well-educated and intelligent friends” that Armenian bands were created to defend Armenian-populated villages from centuries-long pillages, abductions, and massacres by Turkish, Kurdish, and Circassian bands. Armenian bands taking defensive and pre-emptive measures against Turks did not represent the official government of the Ottoman empire. Their atrocities against the Turks were a part of inter-ethnic, inter-communal tensions that existed between ethnic groups inhabiting the multi-ethnic Ottoman empire. Whereas, in the case of the Armenians, Turkish attitudes developed into the official, large-scale, premeditated policy of physical and cultural annihilation of one of the most ancient nations inhabiting the Earth. I hope you and your quite well-educated and intelligent friends will grasp the difference. In case they don’t, let’s take both cases—the genocidal extermination of the race and rare instances of self-defensive “banditry” to international courts and see which of these incomparable cases will qualify for full compensation. You deliberately fail to understand that genocide was premeditated and carried out by the STATE, the legal inheritor of which is the Republic of Turkey, not by some chaotically wandering bands. Therefore, the modern-day state of Turkey is responsible for all-encompassing reparations.
Further, “Armenian losses during WWI” is Turkish rubbish that an intelligent man like you should have avoided while posting here unless you meant losses of Ottoman Armenian soldiers fighting bravely on Ottoman fronts, as testified by many generals and witnesses representing the Allies. What reward they all got at the end the world knows too well… Otherwise, there was no such thing as “Armenian losses during WWI” because Armenian population at large had nothing to do with WWI. Most of Armenian provinces (vilayets) were far removed from fronts, and the cheap Turkish lie that Armenians as a nation supported the Allies is a psychotic tic of Turkish distortionists that consider themselves “quite well-educated and intelligent” while lacking the capacity to understand simple geography.
Further, we cannot bring back the lives lost, but we can bring back the lands and reparation for properties lost. Your flawed judgment in regard to this is that the Republic of Armenia represents all ethnic Armenians today. The Republic represents only the citizens or naturalized citizens of Armenia and is the home for all Armenians. However, for the descendants of victims of Turkish forced deportations and death marches, historical Western Armenian lands (renamed in the best Turkish traditions of Turkifying everything that doesn’t belong to them to “Eastern Anatolia”) represent them. Your assertion that the existence of the Republic of Armenia does not entitle it with any land that today belongs to Turkey is likewise flawed in that the issue of Western Armenian lands goes beyond the jurisdiction of the modern-day Republic of Armenia. It is the international Treaty of Sevres that entitled Armenians with the lands that today belong to Turkey and which were effectively emptied of native ancient inhabitants by the Turks in 1915-1923. The Mandate that US President Woodrow Wilson designed as part of the post-WWI settlement for Armenia, which included Armenian vilayets and not only the current Republic of Armenia, entitles us to these lands. Sevres Treaty remains the only international treaty which bears the signature of the legitimate government of Armenia, which incorporates into the boundaries of Armenia the lands stolen by the Turks.
Only a Turk can speak about the private property belonging to Ottoman Armenians when he or she speaks of “stolen land” because for the Turks it is more suitable to offer a right to return, coupled with ephemeral “official guarantee for a safe environment and public assistance, not reparation of the land. Being inhabitants of those lands for millennia, Armenians understand the notion of stolen land differently. Stolen land is not just the private property belonging to Armenians that they can claim if any of them returns to the Turk-controlled environment. These lands are part of our history, our national identity, culture, architecture, the spirits of our ancestors live there. It is more than private property as the newly-cooked Turkish nation understands. Besides, I hope you’re not serious in presuming that Armenians who came to know the barbarity of the Ottoman Turks firsthand can believe that Turks can grant the returning Armenians a “safe environment” and “public assistance if needed.” Armenians don’t buy such cheap crap, especially from the Turks who even in the 21st century are up to the Seljuk-Ottoman-like behavior, such as killing truth-speaking journalists, hanging Christian priests, deporting and prosecuting Nobel; Prize winners, and genocidal practices against its remaining largest ethnic minority, the Kurds.
Your next point about the fact that a nation who lived millennia before the arrival of Seljuk Turks cannot render them legitimate members of those lands is also flawed. While you rightfully state that Turks were latecomers into Asia Minor and the Armenian Plateau, you deliberately omit the fact that the “arrival” of the Turks was not a mere late-coming, nor was it an attempt to accommodate themselves peacefully amongst other people, nor the Turks displayed behavior aimed at respecting the rights and cultures of those people. Your “arrival” was an explicit projection of force, occupation, destruction, colonization, and ultimate genocidal extermination of indigenous peoples. Do you and your quite well-educated and intelligent friends think that oppression and genocidal extermination renders Turks legitimate members of those communities and lands? If you do, do you consider yourselves “well-educated and intelligent” in the true sense of the word?
Finally, about the “central obstacle” in admitting the fact of the CUP’s premeditated extermination of Armenians. You reiterated the made-up Turkish self-defensive and self-comforting cliché about “devastation of Muslim life and property at the hands of Armenians alone.” I admit inevitable inter-ethnic and inter-communal violence between Muslims (Turks, Kurds, Circassians) and enslaved Christian peoples (Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians) during the centuries of the Ottoman empire, but there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Muslim life and property was devastated at the hands of Armenians.” Memik, it is the Armenians and other Christians who were made humiliating millets that were created to underline the superiority of the newcomer Muslims. It is the Armenians and other Christians who were heavily taxed, barred from legal protection, constantly pillaged, abducted, and massacred. And it is Turks who represented the governments of the Ottoman empire, the state machine aimed at oppression of ethnic and religious minorities, that under the Ittihadists has decided, like Nazis, to find a final solution and exterminate the Armenians in order to steal as much lands as possible for their new Turkish republic. Is it so hard for your quite well-educated and intelligent friends to understand that defenseless, unarmed, largely rural, dispersed and oppressed people could not physically “erase anything that is Turkish from Erzincan to Gyumri” even if they wished to (which is in and of itself a provocative statement on your part)? Don’t you think that the side that holds all the attributes of repressive power (Abdul Hamid’ government, CUP, Kemal, etc.) and whose policies throughout the centuries have been recognized as repressive could become more inclined towards race annihilation? The status quo as you and your friends see it is utterly distorted and flawed. Occupation of Christian lands by the Seljuk Turks, destruction of their properties and cultural heritage, and their physical extermination by the Ottomans lay at the foundation of the status quo, not some segmented counterattacks of the Armenians that happened as REACTION to the Ottoman mistreatment. It is a very convenient way for the Turks to juxtapose to incomparable causes of tension, but it is no use, Memik, because the Armenian Question, and the Question of Christian peoples that once inhabited the lands where Turks now live, has been studies thoroughly by international genocide scholars, historians, and lawyers. The prevailing majority of them have no doubt that the treatment of Christian minorities (Berlin Congress comes to one’s mind) were brutal and discriminatory. Have they triggered attacks from Armenians and others? Yes, they have, and rightfully so. But the response to national awakening and self-determination that those peoples pursued in a hope to get rid of the Ottoman shackles was, mildly speaking, inadequate. Turks simply decided to slaughter millions of innocent people, forcibly expel hundreds of thousands of them, and then erase all the traces of their rich and unique civilizations. Therefore, in no way, other than distortionist Turkish, it may be considered as “mutual massacre,” because the causes, the premeditated character, and the involvement of the state in the Turkish case are absolutely inadequate to a few resistance cases by largely unarmed and suppressed peoples.
mjm: I wish you’d have taken more care reading my post. Thank you for your long post, perhaps I wasn’t as explicit as you are but I think I have restate some of my points.
1) “Someone may ask, for instance, why shouldn’t Turkish citizens whose ancestors were brutalized by Armenian bands be compensated in the same manner? The reason is the active used of state resources in order to eliminate the Armenian group by the CUP administration”. Obviously, here I made a distinction between state-mediated genocide and paramilitary activity of ethnic cleansing. The reason I mentioned this distinction was to give an account of how in daily Turkish psyche the two are mixed and result in the ordinary “but they did too!” type responses. Accusing someone who accepts ‘genocide’ as “deliberately fail(ing) to understand” the difference is unfair.
2) Since I am not willing the equate ‘genocide’ with ‘ethnic cleansing’ I do not wish to expand on the Armenian crimes (perhaps too late I’m afraid) which I think goes well beyond “rare instances of self-defensive” actions. War renders normally good people evil, only few can resist the temptation when thrown into a cycle of violence. In such an environment, even the weakest of justifications may suffice to kill the innocent. Also the accumulation of historical sentiments may be relevant (for Turks, the fear of being uprooted just like in Balkans and Caucasus, for Armenians, centuries-long mistreatment and oppression). I’m not saying these to legitimize anything but to suggest that viewing your side as morally untainted and essentially good does not help you in your own cause (well, you seem not to prioritize convincing Turks about genocide, but anyway). And yes, mjm, sorry but what Dashnak bands did to civilian Muslim population of town centers and villages of places like Erzincan, Erzurum, Kars, Yerevan, and Gymru between Bolshevik revolution and Turkish offensive of 1918, and also following Sevres treaty are FACTS! My point is this: insistence of many Armenians in condoning these actions trigger in many Turks a defensive mechanism that strengthens their insistence of denying some facts about genocide. Having said that, as I note in our earlier debate, I don’t think Armenians are the ones to make an attempt first. First Turkish government has to issue an apology. However, I repeat, the more you decide to ignore your own sins, the other will do the same. Therefore, a more objective approach on behalf of Armenians towards their crimes has a chance of encouraging Turks to face their own sins.
3) As a response to my sentence: “Armenian losses during WWI cannot be explained by limited state resources” you say ““Armenian losses during WWI” is Turkish rubbish that an intelligent man like you should have avoided while posting”. I think it is obvious from what I’ve written that I was criticizing the official Turkish line that claims the “losses” of Ottoman Armenians were simply due to war-time limitations of the Ottoman state. Is it possible that you are being a little bit over-sensitive here? It is as if you’re giving me “automatic” replies without giving much attention to the content of my post.
4) As I have noted in our “Nişanyan” conversation, “Anatolia” is a Greek not a Turkish word, therefore its use is a neutral as “Eastern Turkey” and it doesn’t necessarily entail “attempts of Turkification”.
I hope this time you’d criticize me only for the things I really said…
Memik you do seem more intelligent and understanding than any of the TUrks who post here.. i am happy and thankful for that.. we need more like you who at least tries, attempts to understand and comprehend…
However, after reading your posts, what you are trying to express is the following:
Armenians should change whatever they need to change or admit whatever they need to admit in order to get the Turks to change or admit guilt.. Is that what you are advocating? my apologies if i misread your posts if that is not what you were trying to say…
Mjm apres.. shat shat lav eir grel..
G
memik: Thank you for your precisions and your attempts at understanding the Armenian concerns deeper than the prevailing majority of Turks posting on these pages. I don’t know you, and online comments at times can be dubious and unclear. If you think I misread some of them, my apologies. Having said this, I’m willing to open a discussion with you re: point 2 in your most recent comment, which is the most distortive of all the points you’ve made.
First of all, the very term “Armenian crimes.” Please elaborate on them. I’m interested to know if you believe those “crimes” were a part of inter-ethnic, inter-communal strife typical to all enslaved ethnic groups who loathed the Ottomans or you think these crimes were commensurate to the crimes against humanity as Turkish annihilation of the Armenian race? I’d be curious to know your comparison of the magnitude and scale of the Armenian “crimes” and Turkish premeditated mass slaughter of the Armenians?
Further, please expand on the following statement of yours: “War renders normally good people evil, only few can resist the temptation when thrown into a cycle of violence. In such an environment, even the weakest of justifications may suffice to kill the innocent.” What ethnic group do you imply? If Armenians, please clarify in what terms Armenians were involved in “war” and who was the other warring side? Explain, if you can, how can a rightless unarmed millet represent one of the two warring sides when the other (Turks) represented the state power holding all the mechanisms of repressive power: the police, the army, the secret services, and being superior in the number of population?
If you think Armenian “crimes” go well beyond “rare instances of self-defensive” actions, please provide evidence (from non-Turkish and non-Armenian sources) testifying that Ottoman Armenians have ever organized massive, well-organized, tidily-mobilized, and heavily armed atrocities against innocent, non-discriminatory, and passionately Armenian-loving Turks?
Further, regarding “the accumulation of historical sentiments” that “may be relevant (for Turks, the fear of being uprooted just like in Balkans and Caucasus)”. Here we come to the core of the issue. Were Turks historically in Asia Minor or they happened to place themselves there as a result of invasions from Central Asia? If you admit what the world knows, that your forefathers: Seljuks and Mongols, have appeared in Asia Minor from Altay Mountains and Mongolian Steppes, then don’t you find it natural for indigenous peoples to uproot the invaders? Were Balkans and the Caucasus ever Turkish historically? Or these regions, as well as the Middle East, were forcibly incorporated into the much-loathed Ottoman empire? Also, do you think 2-2.5 mln rural, dispersed, unarmed, and defenseless millet of Armenians were at all capable to uproot 10-15 miln of dominant and state power-possessing Ottoman Turks? Please explain how technically? Lastly, do you think that the fear of being uprooted (by whom? — your response is pending, mine is definitely NOT by Armenians) can justify race annihilation of an ethnic group not at all capable of uprooting?
Memik, I’m not suggesting that Armenians are all saints and Turks are all devils, therefore you point that I view Armenians as “morally untainted and essentially good” doesn’t hold ground. I view Armenians as victims and Ottoman Turks as perpetrators.
Equally misleading was your last point re: “what Dashnak bands did to civilian Muslim population of town centers and villages of places like Erzincan, Erzurum, Kars, Yerevan, and Gymru between Bolshevik revolution and Turkish offensive of 1918, and also following Sevres treaty.” Memik, do you deliberately and conveniently for yourself forget the chronology of events? Whatever has been done in 1917-1918 and around 1920 was the CONSEQUENCE of what has been earlier, in 1915, done by the Turks. I thought this should have been obvious to you. The Dashnak government attempted to salvage as much historical Armenian provinces, effectively emptied of Armenians in 1915, as possible. Don’t you think that obscure yourself with the consequences while disregarding the CAUSES? Why are suggesting Armenians not to condone retaliatory actions? Is it a trait of a reasonable man to emphasize on the consequences and discount the causes for such retaliatory actions? Why are you calling these attempts to salvage a nation’s stolen territory “sins”? If the Dashnak government defensive actions against the expanding Kemalist Turkey were “sins,” how do you qualify the preceding mass deportations of a whole nation to the Syrian deserta to die of starvation, burning and burying people alive, slitting pregnant women bellies, crashing new-borns’ heads against the walls, raping girls in front of their families, neheading and torturing men and the elderly? If these are not “sins” what are they, Holy Acta?
P.S. Anatoya is a Greek word, but the Armenian Plateau, which Turks call “Eastern Anatolya,” is a distinct geographical toponym known to ancient historians, geographers, and travelers. It is Turkification because the toponym has been replaced by the Turkified version (“Antalya”) of the Greek placename thus dropping the original toponym: “The Armenian Plateau.” Is Agra also a Greek placename for sacred Biblical Mountain of Ararat?
Memik, I will leave you to answer mjm’s questions and withhold comments on many of the disputed points until you respond.
Here’s how I summarize your overall position:
1. You acknowledge that state resources of the CUP government were utilized for the purpose of eliminating the Armenians as a group and seizing their wealth and property resulting in a genocide.
2. You assert that bands of Armenians brutalized Turks. You don’t equate state sponsored genocide with paramilitary offenses, but suggest that when Armenians ignore their own sins they contribute to Turkish recalcitrance toward acknowledging its sins.
3. You recognize the need for an official apology from Turkey as well as the possibility of financial reparations. (To whom?)
4. You challenge the legitimacy of land reparations, based on “the mere fact that someone is born and lived in a certain land should sufficient to render him/her a legitimate member of that community.” (You are defending the right of individual Turks in these lands but are at the same time asserting that Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Alevis, Kurds, etc., have equal rights to Turks thus laying the ground work for unity for all these groups based on mutual rights. Is this correct?)
Do I have it right?
Mjm.. qefs galisa when i read your comments… excellent…
Gayane
Gayane, thank you for your kind words. I believe many Turks and Kurds, at heart, are ready acknowledge that the horrible things done by Ottoman government to its Armenian subjects mounts to something that deserves correcting in some way. But the dichotomy that usually configures in Armenian discourse (namely the “total victimhood of the Armenian” and “civilisation-hating barbarity of the Turk”) comes to them as a personal insult. In event, this “black/white” mentality of some Armenians is among the factors that prevents Turks from repent and admission of guilt (no matter how miniscule that may seem when compared to the Turkish guilt). Therefore, I am suggesting that Armenians should be ready to accept their part of the guilt. Not that they should do this out of the blue in an expectation that this will suddenly chance official and public Turkish behaviour. But instead, if you recognize dialogue and power-politics can be mutually reinforcing, this kind of moral objectivity and sincerity has a chance of allowing Armenians to form stronger ties with Turks who are willing to accept their guilt (or even reject genocide), and becoming part of the ongoing social transformation in Turkey, while at the same time, still pursuing national self-interest. Of course, that could be the case unless your politics feeds from enmity and conflict, and if you think dialogue matters at all…
mjm: if I may answer your arguments first by summarizing them:
“Armenians were much weaker when compared to Turks, so they couldn’t have initiated a campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Turks. Whatever harm caused by Armenians against the Turks should be taken as defensive actions as a result of Ottoman aggression.”
Answering this question forces me to provide examples that makes me feel rather uneasy because I have to sound like someone who equates Armenian and Turkish actions as a whole (same happened in the earlier debate, I had to sound as if I care more about Karabaghi Azeris than Karabaghi Armenians). But still, mjm, I shall take the risk since you asked for examples. First of all, the Armenian “sins” I mention took place during when the power-balance shifted in favour of Armenians. Following the retreat of Russian troops during the Bolshevik Revolution and later British withdrawal [so roughly during 11/1917-03-1918 & 12/1919-10/1920] Armenian militias engaged in offensives against Muslim population and property. I may give two that I have direct access. One Dashnak officer, Ohannes Appresian, whose account is provided by an American author (Leonard R. Hartil), tells how in 1920 they rounded up “Tatar” villages, massacring and raping their inhabitants. Another is Ahmet Refik’s account. Although he is Turkish, he is a staunch critique of CUP as well as Dashnaks. He arrives at the East shortly after Turkish offensive of 1918. From his memoirs we learn that 700 in Erzincan and more than 4,000 Muslims in Erzurum were massacred when Armenians realized they cannot defend these towns. He observes Muslim neighbourhood of Erzurum and the centre of Kars burnt by retreating Armenians. During his stay in Kars, news that Muslims of Gyumri are being slaughtered. Another notable aspect of Ahmet Refik’s memoirs is that wherever he goes, he sees old Ottoman mosks, tombs and shrines are vandalized.
There are many other non-Turkish (mainly Russian) sources that mention “Armenian excesses” over-emphasized by Turkish sources and totally ignored by Armenian ones—which I have no time or energy to research at the moment. But these two accounts alone provide examples of non-defensive atrocities, which I interpret as being sourced by a desperate and retributive effort to clear the region from its Turkish population and monuments. Again I’m saying these to make a specific point: denial of actions such as these not only harms the Armenian claim that they pursue the cause of genocide recognition out of a universal moral concern as opposed to merely self-interest. What is more, it reinforces the Turkish view that Armenians are after revenge and have no intention for reconciliation.
mjm, among many other questions, you ask: “? I’d be curious to know your comparison of the magnitude and scale of the Armenian “crimes” and Turkish premeditated mass slaughter of the Armenians?”. Isn’t the distinction I make between ethnic cleansing done by Dashnak government and genocide done by Ottoman government enough?
When I said: “War renders normally good people evil, only few can resist the temptation when thrown into a cycle of violence. In such an environment, even the weakest of justifications may suffice to kill the innocent.” I made a general point about human condition, I didn’t imply a specific group. I meant to say: whether Armenian or Turkish, war, scarcity, cultural differences, ideological perceptions may make normally ‘good’ people do ‘evil’ things. Therefore, when a group finds itself powerful enough in an existential struggle, there should be nothing extraordinary for some Armenians to exhibit the deeds you attribute to the Turks. Also, with the Russian withdrawal, Ottoman territories occupied by Russians were transferred to Armenians (armed and trained by Imperial Russian Army), thus putting them in a de facto war with the Turks. So if my whole family and friends are brutally killed by some Pakistanis, am I totally relieved of crime when I kill some unrelated Pakistanis somewhere else? I think morality would require me to be wrong in killing the innocent, no?
You say Turks are/were present in Asia Minor only because of conquest, therefore even after 1,000 years, they were still ‘invaders’ and you even imply that ethnic cleansing against them was ‘natural’. Please correct me if I’m wrong (or as you tend to say ‘deliberately distort things’). Firstly, as I mentioned above, Armenians committed atrocities during periods when their patrons (first Russians, then the British) were nowhere to be seen. Thus, there is no point of reminding me the population and power imbalances between Armenians and Turks (whatever the balance maybe, I must say, I don’t approve “race annihilation”). Second and more importantly, there is no alternative than viewing Turks as ‘rightful’ inhabitants of Asia Minor, alongside Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians and others. This ‘right’ may derive from an originary use of force, however, that was the order of the day. Not even the Hellenization of inhabitants of Anatolia that pre-date Greeks (Hittites and Leleg-speaking peoples, Kaskians…) occurred simply by peaceful integration but only after military conquest. Hittites conquered the Hatti, who perhaps conquered other bronze-age peoples. It is as unreasonable and wrong to suggest Turks can have less of a claim over today’s Turkey is as unreasonable and wrong to suggest non-Native Americans/Canadians can have less of a claim over North America. Should we approve the banishment of British citizens with Norman-blood from Britain in favour of Anglo-Saxons? But wait, Anglo-Saxons invaded Britain between 5th/6th centuries AD! So maybe Celtic peoples are the sole rightful owners of the island? Maybe Russians should lift their border north of Astrakhan, which was conquered only in 16th century? And please don’t tell me in none of these cases there’s forceful assimilation. Please remember, whilst all its shortcomings, Ottoman rule allowed non-Muslims to preserve their distinct identities and instances of forced conversion are rare. A state is required to provide all the protection from the survival and flourishing of ancient cultures within its domain. Some people may find it better for themselves to assimilate, but everyone has to have an option if they choose not to.
As for the geographical name “Anatolia”/“Anadolu” signifies an effort to “Turkification”: I now accept it may be so, yet there has been a movement in Turkey towards re-instating the original Kurdish town names. Hopefuly, “Ararat” will appear alongside “Ağrı” just as the Spanish managed to do five centuries after the removal of Arabs in Andalucia… Still, remember none of provincial town names in Turkey has been changed into something Turkish. But they are Turkified in a way “Smyrni” become “İzmir”, just as Hititean “Ankuwa” became Greek “Ankyra” and later Turkish “Ankara”…
Yes, Boyajian your summary seems right…
Memik, I’m not sure where to start. I want you to know that I respect your effort to share your views and to consider the views of Armenians. While I recognize that you have come farther than most Turks I know in considering the validity of the the Armenian Case, I feel we are still deeply divided.
You assert that Armenians need to acknowledge that they are not innocent victims, but also harmed and brutalized Muslims when given the opportunity, both for the sake of retribution and to drive Muslims out of areas they wanted for themselves. You state:
“Again I’m saying these to make a specific point: denial of actions such as these not only harms the Armenian claim that they pursue the cause of genocide recognition out of a universal moral concern as opposed to merely self-interest.”
You imply that reconciliation would come more easily if Armenians could accommodate a less black and white/innocent victim interpretation of events in dialogue with Turks. I have no doubt that this would make things easier for Turks. But who ever claimed that the Armenian cause was purely a moral concern? It is a moral question to be sure, but of course our cause is also motivated by self-interest. How much more self-interested can we get than the struggle to find justice for murdered ancestors and stolen inheritance? Make no mistake, Memik, this is personal. Turks want to dilute this fact and avoid dealing with the emotional pain that the Genocide and its perpetuation has caused for Armenians.
I understand that you are more open-minded than many Turks we encounter on this site, but it appears you are still finding it difficult to come to terms with the true character of the offenses against Armenians and are trying to apply the mutual-massacre defense. As many Armenians have stated here and elsewhere: Armenians are not angels and Turks are not devils. No one denies that fighting was initiated from both sides, but you can’t close your eyes to the fact of who the main provocateur was to the conflict. The question is who committed genocide? Who eliminated a population from their native lands in order to claim it for themselves? Who claimed whose historic culture as their own in an effort to obfuscate the memory of the Armenians? Who is a signatory of the genocide convention, yet avoids justice today?
As you have acknowledged, this is not a case of equal combatants, but of a government assault upon a segment of its own citizens. This is no small distinction. This is the main point that needs to be addressed and rectified. Turkey (the nation) owes a debt to Armenians and society for committing genocide and behaving as if they have no obligation to pay for this crime. Don’t confuse the issue. Turkish suffering at the hands of Armenians should not be placed on a balance scale with Armenian suffering caused by Turks. It is not comparable in scope. It’s like comparing a broken finger to an amputated limb. A finger can regrow and remains in place as a member of the hand, but an amputated limb, especially one left to dry in a desert, can never be restored to its origin. I am not saying that Turkish lives are less important than Armenian lives. I am saying that Turkey secured its place as a nation by virtue of the elimination of Armenians from the Armenian Plateau; by disposing of the Armenians and usurping their homes and property. This is a crime that all civilized nations condemn.
Let me also add some thoughts on your philosophy regarding the idea of who has the right to call a land their own. As noted above, you challenge the legitimacy of land reparations, based on “the mere fact that someone is born and lived in a certain land should sufficient to render him/her a legitimate member of that community.” I understand your opinion but I think this is a bit simplistic. If I killed your family, and moved into your home and proceeded to raise a family in your home, would you say that my children had legitimate inheritance rights to the home? And if your relatives returned to claim the property as your descendants, should I suggest to them that we all live together in the home as equal owners, and never atone for how I harmed your family?
Boyajian, I admit morality and politics have goals that are conceptually independent from each other. One seeks truth, the other power, wealth, happiness and other benefits. I have mostly limited myself to the moral aspect of the problem at hand. Yet, what I tried to say by referring to the possibility that realpolitik and dialogue may be “mutually reinforcing” is that, today, legitimate political outcomes (lets say, maximization of self-interest) depend on consistent moral thought. So if you seriously think Armenians have an interest in justice (that what is ‘good’ for them is in fact what is ‘right’ for everyone), they musn’t employ a morally selective approach towards history. Of course this is valid for everyone regardless of culture, age, sex or class.
I’m afraid I might have given you the false impression that I view ‘genocide against Armenians’ and ‘ethnic cleansing against Turks’ as being “comparable in scope”. In my post, I wrote defining what happened as “mutual massacres” (“mukatele”) mounted for missing “the distinction between genocide and ethnic cleansing”. I am “not willing the equate ‘genocide’ with ‘ethnic cleansing’” since I take the “active use of state resources in order to eliminate the Armenian group by the CUP administration” as a fact. Furthermore, I wrote “many of the Armenian losses during WWI cannot be explained by limited state resources” as claimed by official Turkish position. I endorse your “finger/limb” analogy, but I may have something to add to the latter: my returning relatives may rightly be offered another home in return for my loss. Now, my relatives may still push for the same property and that current occupants be transferred to another home, that is part of legal technicality. But what is clear to me is that all the confiscated property by the Turks must be accounted for and reimbursed to the penny. But I can’t see whether if that analogy requires the transfer of sovereignty over which the wrongs committed. Israel was not founded on Bavaria Boyajian. The last peacetime sovereignty exercised by an Armenian king in those lands was a millennia ago.
BTW, the sources I referred above are:
Altinay, Ahmet Refik (2010) İki Komite, İki Kital / Kafkas Yollarinda [Two Committees, Two Massacres / On the Road to Caucasus], Istanbul: Tarih Vakfi Yurt Yay.
Hartill, Leonard Ramsden (1928) Men Are Like That, Indianapolis: The Bobbs & Merill Comp.
Memik, you brought up the comparison to Israel…
The Jewish right to exercise self-determination in their ancestral, historical homeland was acknowledged and realized, despite the fact that no Jewish king exercised sovereignty over those lands in more then a millenia and no Jewish majority had lived there for as long. The Armenians only left, by force, within the last century. And the Bavaria analogy is also weak. Bavaria was never Israel, but Armenia was acknowledged as ‘Armenian vilayets’ on the Armenian Plateau, by your ancestors, as recently as 100 years ago. These are facts which support the Armenian right to self-determination in their historic lands. This is a complex and difficult dilemma, to be sure. But can you really envision Turkey coming to terms with the pain they caused Armenia without experience some pain of her own? This is not a wish for revenge, only an awareness that justice in this case will require hard choices.
Memik, I want to express again my appreciation to you for your forthright and respectful contributions to these discussions.
Memik: You attempt to grasp the peculiarities of the Armenian mentality and the Armenian position on the issues of the Armenian genocide and Turkish crime against humanity, but while exhibiting the traits of an erudite man (or woman) you can’t avoid ethnic bias augmented by a psychological guilt complex. Hence, your conclusion, if I have it right: Armenians, accept a portion of guilt (inter-communal, mostly defensive in character, atrocities against imperial and discriminatory new-comer Ottoman Turks) so that we, Turks, might be capable of repenting for incomparably larger and dreadful guilt (near-annihilation, mass deportations, and forced conversions of all Western Armenians, appropriation of two-thirds of historical Armenian lands, theft of Armenian properties, valuables, bank accounts, and insurance indemnities). Well, Memik, I don’t think this is going to happen. You see, it is amoral to juxtapose Armenians’ subjugation to nomadic Seljuk Turkish tribes and then into the Ottoman empire, Armenians’ attempts at self-defense from constant pillages, abductions, and murders by the Turkish, Kurdish, and Circassian bands; Armenians’ righteous indignation against the millet status imposed on an indigenous people living on their own lands, AND large-scale massacres committed by Ottoman Turks under Bloody Sultan Abdul Hamid in the 1890s, then by the Ittihadists in Adana in the early 1900s, and ultimately near-total extermination of their ancient civilization in 1915-1923. It is unacceptable to request that the victim accepts some phantasmagoric portion of “guilt” in order to soothe perpetrators and relieve their guilt complex for an incomparably grave, heinous crime. And, frankly, I don’t care if “total victimhood of the Armenian” and “civilization-hating barbarity of the Turk” discourse comes to the Turks as an insult. I have nothing to apologize to the Turks: my ancestors didn’t exterminate almost entire Turkish population, they didn’t deport them en masse from their ancestral lands, pastures, and homes, they didn’t steal their money, cattle, bank accounts, and re-settled in their houses, sorry. My grandparents’ houses are in Kars and Mush, visitors told me they still stand there. My grandparents didn’t mass-murdered their Turkish neighbors in order to settle in those houses. They built and furnished these houses by themselves, gave birth and raised their children, worked hard being heavily taxed by the Turks, unprotected from Turkish prosecution because they were barred from bearing witness in the courts, defenseless from pillaging Turkish bands because they were barred from carrying weapons. You keep emphasizing on Armenians’ acceptance of “their part of the guilt.” Is securing an oppressed ethnic community from the permissiveness of the dominant Turkish authorities considered “guilt”? If you think it is, what would you advise Armenians, or Greeks, or Assyrians, or Arabs, to do while being under the much-loathed Ottomans? To shut the h*** up, be happy to be oppressed, and at the end be massacred like sheep? Your problem is that, albeit an intelligent man (or woman), you fail to put yourself in our place because of your ethnic bias and inability to feel acutely what non-Turks might have gone through being under the colonizing Turkish regime. I am under no obligation to soothe someone for some defunct “part of my guilt” in a hope that the genocide perpetrator feels satisfied and reduce himself to offering an apology for his “part” of the guilt. If our dialogue, as I trust you suggest, should be based on this paradigm, then I’ll be the one who’d ostensibly reject such a dialogue. After all, what dialogue can there be between the victim (as is increasingly admitted by the international community) and the unrepentant perpetrator? Somewhere in your comments above you said (and I admire your courage, frankly) that Turkish apology must come first. Well, only after that will I be willing to form stronger ties with Turks who are willing to accept their guilt. Juxtaposition of two incomparable, differently motivated, and “cause-consequence” connection-violating “parts of the guilt” is nearly as harmful as total denial of the genocide. It means Armenians are forced to accept some defunct part of some “guilt” in exchange for a Turkish acceptance of the guilt for annihilation of a race, a crime against humanity.
The two examples you provided for the widely-known and researched fact that Armenians were, indeed, much weaker as compared to Turks, couldn’t possibly initiate a tidily-mobilized campaign of ethnic cleansing, and were largely defensive actions against Ottoman mistreatment, are irrelevant, I’m sorry to say. Both (one written by a Turkish author which I can’t even count as a reliable source as much as I wouldn’t count even the Armenian source, since you’re a Turk) describe some isolated episodes AFTER the genocide of Armenians by the Turks which started in 1915. I explained above that the Dashnak government of the first, short-lived Armenian Democratic Republic (1918-1920), while being flooded by escapees of the Turkish slaughters and refugees from Ottoman Armenian provinces, indeed, attempted to recoup the lost lands that already were claimed by an outlaw named Mustafa Kemal. These offensives were required to halt the advancement of the Kemalist troops onto the Republic that was left unprotected after the withdrawal of the Russians. In a way, it is hard to discuss things with the Turks, because throughout the existence of your Republic, all history books, geographic names, names of cultural marvels created by other, non-Turkish, non-Seljuk civilizations have been so distorted and Turkified in favor of the Turkish version of history, that I sometimes give up having a dialogue with a Turk, even with such intellectual as yourself. Consider this, if you had you almost entire population massacred by some other nation, what would your reaction be? Now extrapolate this onto the actions of Armenians against Turks AFTER Western Armenian civilization ceased to exist. If not righteous excesses, how otherwise would you describe the reaction of a nearly-annihilated nation?! I equally don’t care about the Turkish view that Armenians are after revenge and have no intention for reconciliation. This is yet another Turkish rubbish. For the millionth time: Armenians are not after revenge, Armenians are after justice, and reconciliation can only happen when the murderer apologizes. First things first…
Further, about your statement re: “whether Armenian or Turkish, war, scarcity, cultural differences, ideological perceptions may make normally ‘good’ people do ‘evil’ things. Therefore, when a group finds itself powerful enough in an existential struggle, there should be nothing extraordinary for some Armenians to exhibit the deeds you attribute to the Turks.” Memik, there certainly is such a thing as universal human virtues and universal human vices, but there’s also such a thing as peculiar national mentality. Nowhere in the Armenian history would you be able to find an instance when other nations were slaughtered en masse by Armenians. After all, we are a Christian people: violence is against our beliefs, we are not encouraged to kill other human beings because they are infidels. Now, I don’t want to say that there was no violence on the part of Armenians mainly as a reaction to earlier atrocities, but it is out of our imagination to slaughter millions of innocent people even in an existential struggle (to repel your possible counterargument, Crusades pursued a divergently different objective). With this in mind, it IS extraordinary for Armenians to exhibit the deeds that we witnessed—not attribute—to the Turks (both of my fraternal grandparents and a maternal grandfather witnessed the Turksih “deeds,” if I may say so, and passed them on to us. My maternal grandmother and all her relatives were burnt alive in the church by the Turkish gendarmes…). Besides, and I believe I asked a variation of this question earlier: “war, scarcity, cultural differences, ideological perceptions” that, as you think, “may make normally ‘good’ people do ‘evil’ things”. Who were the warring sides and who imposed scarcity, cultural differences, and ideological perceptions on good Turks? Armenians?! Were the disenfranchised Armenian millet and powerful Turkish state authorities at war against each other? Did the Armenians impose scarcity on good Turks? As for cultural differences, well it were certainly not Armenians who invaded and colonized indigenous Turks to get cultural differences afterwards, weren’t they?
I’d like to invite your attention to a misinterpretation that I bet you took from your distorted history books. You state: “with the Russian withdrawal, Ottoman territories occupied by Russians were transferred to Armenians.” “Ottoman” territories, Memik? You readily qualify Russian takeover as occupation, but seem to obstinately refuse to acknowledge that Greater Armenia (which was made Armenian vilayets under the Ottoman rule) was earlier occupied by the Seljuk Turks and then colonized by the Ottoman empire. What comes first? I’d like to believe that you’re not one of many Turks we’ve seen here that can only count from the year Turks appeared on the world map from Mongolian steppes, are you?
As for your historical analogies that I could supplement in dozens of others, no one denies that military conquest and brutality occurred in the tumultuous human history and in many instances more ancient and nobler peoples suffered as a result. However, I want you to understand that, yes, even after 1,000 years Turks were still invaders for Armenians and other indigenous peoples and freedom fighting (not ethnic cleansing) against them was a natural reaction. You see, for more ancient peoples, like Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, etc., 1,000 years represents only a fraction of their history. For Armenians, 1,000 years is roughly one-fourth of their history. For Greeks, even more so. I can see the discrepancy between the perceptions of a representative of an ancient nation and a representative of a nation that has at most 1,000 years of history in that even after 1,000 years we remember that our lands were invaded and we were enslaved by an occupying force. Does it seem extraordinary to you? We kept these memories and our existence under the Ottomans was excruciating. When the national awakening commenced in Europe, Armenians, just like ALL other enslaved peoples, stood for their right of self-determination. So did Arabs, Greeks, Serbs, Montenegrins, Bulgarians, Romanians, Albanians. Their freedom fighting, which you wrongfully call “ethnic cleansing”, was quite natural. After all, who invaded whom? When you answer this question, I hope you’ll come to no other conclusion that those Ottoman subjects were defending their right for self-determination and national liberation from the foreign yoke.
Lastly, re: “Armenians committed atrocities during periods when their patrons (first Russians, then the British) were nowhere to be seen. Thus, there is no point of reminding me the population and power imbalances between Armenians and Turks.” I think I’ve made myself clear that this is an utterly distorted statement. You brought two sources that, based on your comments, related to the period from post-1917 to 1920. You haven’t shown by means of an observation or any non-Turkish (and non-Armenian) source that except for isolated instances of “banditry” aimed at defending their villages from constant pogroms and pillages by the Muslim bands, Armenians throughout the Ottoman centuries ever committed large-scale atrocities, well-organized rebellions, tidily-mobilized resistance, or centrally-planned genocidal extermination. I’m sorry, I will consider your statement above an empty verbiage until you offer, if you can, historical evidence for your assertion. I’m likewise sorry if my invitation to explain how technically population and power-wise imbalanced unarmed Armenian population could possibly commit atrocities of such a magnitude especially when their their patrons(?!)—as you assume, first Russians, then the British—were nowhere to be seen.
As for “no alternative to view Turks as ‘rightful’ inhabitants of Asia Minor, alongside Armenians, Kurds, Greeks, Assyrians and others”, I’d buy this if you could elaborate on what, in your view, the Turks’ “right” implies? If the notions of “right” and “rightful inhabitants,” as I bet the prevailing majority of the Turks understands, imply physical annihilation of Armenian, Kurdish, Greek, and Assyrian races, destruction or, at best, Turkification of their cultural heritage, appropriation of their homes, pastures, and personal properties, then I’d say ‘no,’ in this manner Turks cannot be viewed as “rightful” inhabitants of Asia Minor. As you see, I deliberately omit the fact that Turks historically do not belong in Asia Minor, thus willing to invite you and your friends to understand that Turks could be viewed as rightful inhabitants had they treated the nations they came to enslave and colonize, at least, as EQUAL. Sadly, no scholar or an intellectual can say that throughout their history Turks alongside an originary use of force Turks matured enough to understand that civility implies recognition and respect of the civilizational input of other nations. Civility also implies that even if a barbarous crime had been committed, a nation that strives to become civilized, needs to find the courage to apologize to the victims.
What would you say, Memik, if Armenians established their “right” on Turkish lands in Altay Mountains that might derive from an originary use of force, which, as you appear to justify, was “the order of the day,” by slaughtering, looting, raping, beheading, burning and burying innocent people alive? After all, it was “the order of the day,” thus acceptable, no?
Wielding the keyboard like a laser knife, mjm cuts through confusion with the precision of a neurosurgeon removing a tumor.
This copied from Armenian site
The wartime reports from German and Austro-Hungarian officials, Turkey’s World War I allies, released recently,
“559 villages whose surviving inhabitants were converted to Islam with fire and sword; 568 churches thoroughly pillaged, destroyed and razed to the ground; of 282 Christian churches transformed into mosques; of 21 Protestant preachers and 170 Armenian priests who were, after enduring unspeakable tortures, murdered on their refusal to accept Islam.” Lepsius concluded with this rhetorical question: “Is this a religious persecution or is it not?” And in his eloquent Wednesday 8/22/07 column “No Room to Deny Genocide” The Boston Globe’s Jeff Jacoby emphasized the nexus between the jihad genocide of the Armenians, the contemporary depredations of jihad, and the dangers of denial.
Today I was looking to Armenian Church “Vank” in Isfahan, Iran… how kept well since 1606 and how our churches in Turkey were demolished. Both are Islamic countries but cultures are different one wants to preserve one wants to destry and vanish.
So genocides nothing to do with Religion …Arab Islams protected Armenians But Turks killed us one by one.
I ask none of you to use word Muslim please use the Ethnic name only.
Please see the beauty our Church still kept well in Iran…Most of the Persians’ respect the place and visit and make a wish as they told me.
Can any Turk tell me that they visit Armenian churches and make a wish!
vank_Cathedral_interior.
Mjm.. WOW.. i got goosebumps all over after reading your post.. Boyajian was correct.. you did a superb job..
Memik.. again thank you for your willingness to have an open discussion and your courage but as you can see, my assumption of what you were trying to get at was correct but unfortunately what you are suggesting is not going to happen.. as Mjm explained very precisely, it is not the Armenians who need to carry the burden of softening the pain and wounds of the Turks to make them apologize.. it is on the Turks to take the burden and do the right thing…i hope the information here was helpful and informative..and it will give you more to ponder about.. and know that we, Armenians do not hate, do not want revenge and do not blame individual Turks..but what we want is for the Turkish govt do EVERYTHING necessary to make things right…EVERYTHING..
memik.. thank you for your input and we appreciate your involvement…
Gayane
file:////800px-Vank_Cathedral_interior.jpg
Dear Sylva
Thank you for sharing this breathtaking photo…I can’t even fathom being inside a building that took nearly 60 years to make. The Armenian’s are an amazing culture, how rich their spirits are to create this…
Carrie
This e-mail I received from my friend…after watching the Vank in Isfahan IRAN.
Let our pretending Turkish friends on this site see and be ashamed what they have done to our Churches and cathedrals…
This is our culture…The religion is only a mask…Jesus did not tell us to build places but we do because we can do…Turks very easy to change to mosques like Aya Sofia in Istanbool and they are proud to show it on every T.V and advertisement.
If we killed one they killed million…!!!
If they left all Armenians we could have counted now at least 40 million.
Also in Baghdad Iraq their is a small church ” sourp Asdvagaged” in the back of most famous street i Baghdad Al Rashed still now exist and Muslims pray there and ask a wish …my father was responsible to collect the money after he retired…they threw their chains with gold and the book of Curran attached to the chain which is very dear to them.
God bless every person who respects any culture…and never tries to destroy.
genocided/genicide cohorts—new generations whose grandparents, relatives were massacred; Recent cohorts risen from the orphans of the genocide populace. To add more, Armenians were massacred; Genocided and turkified many and many times more than other nations.
Genocided from eleventh century from year 1064 onwards…till now denied.
Armenians before BC cultivated empty lands did not invade to kill…
Turks entered a civilized place to destroy eat and live on the account of a hard working artful nation.
Both populace incomparable.
mjm, first of all thanks for the fast-track psychological diagnosis that you delivered in such a precise and clinical-fashion that it does not deserve any explanation or whatsoever…
I’m not sure anyone can be bias-free to the full (and), but let’s be clear: I said nothing against Armenian self-defence or aspirations for independence (along side Greeks, Bulgarians, Arabs). I am not calling Armenian efforts to defend their community “ethnic cleansing against Turks” but only the actions that took place in a specific time & place: the crimes committed during when Turkish army was beaten and de-mobilizing; foreign powers left the region to Armenians militias who are (though low in numbers) armed and trained. In my opinion, they attacked already pacified Muslim villages in order to “secure” their rear or purely to take revenge. Maybe, for you, burning Muslims in a mosk qualifies as one of those “isolated instances of “banditry” aimed at defending their villages from constant pogroms and pillages by the Muslim bands”, I don’t know. Or the raping and killing of Muslim villagers who possibly had nothing to do with crimes instigated by CUP can be considered in terms of what you (quite ambiguously) “righteous excesses” or “securing an oppressed ethnic community”. I am not a specialist in the field only someone committed to fraternity between our peoples—and a male btw) and am ready to be convinced otherwise as a result of exposure to further research (please let me know if you can refer to any sources in English that touches this specific issue). But since you say you “wouldn’t count even the Armenian source, since (I am) a Turk”, what’s the point of me providing you sources from third parties? I’m not sure what is it have to do with me being Turkish (prone to offer manipulated material?) but Hartil’s book is sold in Amazon, maybe you’d like to see for yourself. Also I’m having difficulty in understanding the notion of “ethnic bias”: I may have biases due to my upbringing, personality, religious or ideological inclinations etc. but I don’t understand how any bias can be “ethnic”?
Anyway, my point is, if these incidents are true, then denying these harm the credibility of the Armenian position which often resorts to arguments based on justice. You may choose to ignore what happened to non-combatant Turks (in that particular period & area), just as many Turks simply ignore the crimes committed against Ottoman Armenians. I’m sick and tired of everybody self-glorifying their own culture, telling how high their moral standards are, untainted their history is etc. I really believe there are sincere and reasonable people who are not afraid admit their part of the guilt, has a healthy sense of history and identity, who focus on arguments before making accusations, who constructively seek the grounds for reconciliation and future co-existence. Real change will be brought thanks to those people…
Some notes:
Since we agree on the inhumane treatment that Ottoman Armenians were subjected to by the CUP government mounts to genocide, much in this discussion depends how we understand the role of dialogue. You say “Turkish apology must come first. Well, only after that will I be willing to form stronger ties with Turks who are willing to accept their guilt”: I respect if you’re willing to withhold dialogue until that happens, but this runs against my understanding of dialogue’s importance and function. Dialogue is part of a long and laborious process of reconciliation; it can very well lead changing of perceptions and perceived accounts of history. I take it to prepare ground for an “official” Turkish apology, not as something depending on a prior admission of genocide. But I respect if you rather refrain from dialogue with people who deny the genocide, provided that you also respect those who wish to engage in with the ones who are in fundamental disagreement.
Boyajian: At least we can agree that territories excluding Kars and Artvin formally belonged to Ottoman Empire. “Armenian Vilayets” is a name given my foreign diplomats (mostly Russian), not by Turks (who rather call these the “Six Vilayets”).
Mjm: “Turks could be viewed as rightful inhabitants had they treated the nations they came to enslave and colonize, at least, as EQUAL” compared this with my statement: “Turks can only fulfil their claim to the land only if show (Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, Assyrian…) civilizations proper care and respect”. We seem to be an agreement here.
Boyajian: I made the Israel/Bavaria analogy as an example of genocide acceptance and financial reparation that does not entail land transfer.
Mjm: I am from Anatolia, I feel no attachment towards the Altay mountains. If there was an Armenian entity there today, who exercised sovereignty for over 1,000 years, consisted the majority (whilst oppressing others and committing genocide) I would still defend a democratic joint-state there. Don’t forget: Ottomans not only oppressed non-Muslims, in fact Turkmen uprisings were frequently repressed in bloodshed. The problem with Ottoman state, as in many other Eastern empires, was the “arbitrariness” of the rule, from which Turks and other Muslims suffered as well. But today we have a chance to replace “arbitrary rule” with a truly democratic regime in which rule is non-arbitrary and where government is self-government.
Memik, you write:
Boyajian: At least we can agree that territories excluding Kars and Artvin formally belonged to Ottoman Empire. “Armenian Vilayets” is a name given my foreign diplomats (mostly Russian), not by Turks (who rather call these the “Six Vilayets”).
Is this a question? I think I am not following you. Can you expound on your reference to Kars and Artvin? My point refers to the notion that even the Ottomans knew that the “six vilayets’ were historic Armenia. Bavaria was never historic Israel in the way that the Armenian Plateau has been home to Armenians for thousands of years, thus not the logical place to establish an independent Jewish state. And consider the arbitral award of territory by the Treaty of Sevres: why were these lands awarded to Armenia by President Wilson, if not internationally recognized as legitimate Armenian Homeland?
And this:
Boyajian: I made the Israel/Bavaria analogy as an example of genocide acceptance and financial reparation that does not entail land transfer.
I understand your intent here and your resistance to land transfer, however the analogy is still weak. If you bring up the example of the reparations and reconciliations following the Holocaust, the precedence remains that the award of sovereign land and right to self-determination followed the prosecution of genocidal acts.
I agree with you that Armenia/Armenians should receive financial compensation and reparation for the loss to life, property, dignity and nation caused by the genocide, and I am happy to know that we can take this as a starting point in configuring a reconciliation between our people. You have suggested earlier that you also envision a scenario where Armenians are given the right of return to their homeland with guaranteed protection from the government, as well as compensation or financial assistance as a compensatory action. In this scenario I presume you envision Turks and Armenians (and other ‘repatriated’ people) living side by side as co-citizens of Turkey, correct?
I think we both can imagine how difficult this would be. How do you envision Armenians, who were brutally betrayed by Turkey, returning to live as neighbors with those who have denied their history for 95 years and who use the term ‘Armenian’ as a slur? How can the descendants of exiled and murdered Armenians accept being Turkish citizens without some indescribable, even miraculous, soul-searching repentance and apology occurring first? I am intrigued by your idealism. Turkey has given Armenians no reason to trust them, to expect to be treated as equal human beings, or to believe that all the cries that “We are all Hrant Dink” have created any substantive changes in the minds of average Turks or the Turkish government. (see Khachig Mouradian’s article on this topic in the current issue of AW.)
We have a long way to go, but at least we are carrying out a discussion without insulting one another. This should never be a discussion about which people are more evil or more moral, or who deserved to be deported or how desperation or greed or pride causes people to do bad things to one another. The salient issue to me is how do civilized nations hold one another accountable for acts of genocide? Let’s keep things very clear here.
Boyajian, thank you for focusing the course of our discussion towards a more constructive direction. Before returning to my proposal for “repatriation” a few remarks on Israel analogy: it is generally accepted that Jews historically emerged from Palestine, but they were present in Germany from 4th century AD. Since Federal Germany assumed the guilt, it might have been a case for land transfer, but this never happened. We know prior British plans to reinstate a Jewish state (first considered in Thessaloniki). But my point was that conceptually, genocide reparations in that case did not involve any transfer of land. I mentioned Artvin and Kars for the sake of historical consistency since these were ceded to Russia in 1878 and restored to Ottoman state by Brest-Litovsk agreement in 1918. So, when we speak of “Six” or “Armenian” vilayets, these are not included. Anyway, Ottomans never accepted passing the sovereignty of the “Six Vilayets” to Armenians. By “international recognition” of the transfer you must mean the victors of WWI who were bent on punishing Ottoman Turkey for entering the war in Central powers’ side.
You wrote: “How do you envision Armenians, who were brutally betrayed by Turkey, returning to live as neighbors with those who have denied their history for 95 years and who use the term ‘Armenian’ as a slur? How can the descendants of exiled and murdered Armenians accept being Turkish citizens without some indescribable, even miraculous, soul-searching repentance and apology occurring first?”. To me, a democratized Turkey is more of a realistic possibility than the transfer of land (whether as a result of international pressure, Turkish willingness or war). I’m not claiming Turkey is ready for this or anything. Below is a reference from Umit Kardas, who is a retired military judge. Reading something like this from someone who comes from the segment of Turkish bureaucracy that is foremost bent on defending status quo was unthinkable a decade ago:
“No justification, even the fact that some Armenian groups revolted with certain claims and collaborated with foreign countries, can be offered for this human tragedy. It is misleading to discuss what happened with reference to genocide, which is merely a legal and technical term. No technical term is vast enough to contain these incidents, which are therefore indescribable. Atrocities and massacres are incompatible with human values. It is more degrading to be regarded as a criminal in the collective conscience of humanity than to be tried on charges of genocide.
A regime that hinges upon concealing and denying the truth will make the state and the society sick and decadent. The politicians, academics, journalists, historians and clerical officials in Turkey should try to ensure that the society can face the truth. To face the truth is to become free. We can derive no honor or dignity from defending our ancestors who were responsible for these tragedies. It is not a humane or ethical stance to support and defend the actions of Abdülhamit II and senior CUP members and their affiliated groups, gangs and marauders. Turkey should declare to the world that it accepts said atrocities and massacres and that in connection with this, it advocates the highest human values of truth, justice and humanism while condemning the mentality and actions of those who committed them in the past.
After this is done, it should invite all Armenians living in the diaspora to become citizens of the Turkish Republic. As the Armenians of the diaspora return to the geography where their ancestors lived for thousands of years before being forced to abandon it, leaving behind their property, memories and past, this may serve to abate their sorrow, which has now translated into anger. The common border with Armenia should be opened without putting forward any condition. This is what conscience, humanity and reason direct us to do. Turkey will become free by getting rid of its fears, complexes and worries by soothing the sorrows of Armenians.”
Memik, thank you for sharing the quote from Umik Kardas. It is truly eye-opening…
But still, how can this happen? How do you envision such a utopian reconciliation taking place? How do you change the hearts and minds of your citizens who hate Armenians and see us only as the angry, ruthless mob that spreads defamatory lies and terrorizes innocent Turkey? And how do Armenians begin to believe that Turkish society is ready to examine its own overblown, synthetically manufactured, national pride and come to terms with its true history and guilty past?
As for the Israel analogy: To me the main point is that as a compensation/reparation, the nation of Israel was ultimately awarded territory in the land that they called homeland.
The matter of the victors of WWI punishing Turkey with the Treaty of Sevres is your perspective. From my side, I see it as an attempt at a just compensation to the Armenians for what they had suffered. Ottomans not accepting the transfer of sovereignty of territories to the Armenians doesn’t diminish the significance of the binding arbitral award by President Wilson. To me, it is an historical fact that sits on the Armenian side of the balance scale of truth. Ottoman, and subsequently, modern Turkey’s inability to accept guilt and make appropriate reparations is and has been the obstacle to peace that sits on the other side of the scale.
As for Kars and Artvin, USSR and Ottomans no longer rule. Regardless of how many times borders are redrawn and empires reconfigured, the people of the territories in question know their history and the name they give their historical land. You can not erase the 4000 year old memory of homeland, history and culture from a people’s consciousness, just because lines on a map change.
Apres Boyajian jan..shat lav es grel…. apres…
Boyajian,
I think “changing hearts and minds” of Turkish citizens has to do with factors shaping political culture in Turkey: economy, security and collective self-understanding.
Up to date, Turkish state and society were obsessed with national security. Citizens were continuously reminded of “internal and external enemies”, which limited the scope for the flourishing of a healthy democratic politics. But today, Turkey is poised to become one of the leading economies in near future. Its indigenous arms industries are rapidly growing, minimizing foreign dependency. These factors are likely to reinforce a sense of self-confidence in Turkey, which may allow Turkey to take more courageous steps in resolving its problems. Turkey may be more able and willing to repatriate and pay reparations to Armenians for demonstrating its ability to join civilized nations. On the other hand, for the same reasons, it is unlikely that—let alone land transfer—demands for apology/recognition and reparations will materialize simply by external pressure. We’re rather like Americans: we believe in what we’re told. But it is for this very reason the hold of artificial discourses in society change diminish rapidly. Perhaps more importantly, Turkish politics has recently entered into a virtuous cycle where political parties feel the urge to compete by promising more democracy and liberty. I cannot think anything but positive outcomes from these developments for the recognition of genocide and return of Armenians. Maybe you have seen Oppenheimer’s scenarios about the future of Turkey (find link below). Indeed, the strengthening of “liberal democracy” in Turkey is due to political contingencies rather than a historical necessity. I leave it to you whether reconciliation as a result of this or the transfer of those lands to Armenian sovereignty is more “utopian”…
http://nyuglobalcitizen.wordpress.com/2010/06/21/cga-scenarios-initiative-turkey-in-2020/
Memik: It is becoming a bit tiresome and slightly embarrassing to bring up historical evidence and historical chronology of events that led to segmented banditry carried out by the Armenians on one hand and genocidal extermination of all Armenian population in Armenian vilayets perpetrated by Ottoman Turks on the other, while hearing the same inaccurate, unsubstantiated counterarguments from you regarding the “Armenian atrocities.” You keep emphasizing them in relation to a period when the Turkish army was beaten and de-mobilizing. Memik, for the third time, I’m sorry: you’re referring to the period of 1917-1920, whereas I repeatedly invite your attention to the fact that the Turkish state policy of race annihilation had started in 1915 followed by the massacres in Adana in 1909 and Hamidian massacres in 1894-1896. Frankly, I don’t understand why you’re putting the horse behind the cart? Whatever atrocities the Armenians did AFTER 1915 were considered the isolated (i.e. NOT state-approved, premeditated, and executed) retaliation for the incomparably larger in scope, magnitude, and grief genocidal exterminatory state policy of the Ittihadist central and local governments, hundreds of thousands of army commanders and soldiers, gendarmes and the chettes, as well as perhaps millions of ordinary maraudering, looting, raping, expelling, and massacring ethnic Turks that happened BEFORE the genocidal destruction of the Armenian Homeland. The greatest flaw in your analysis is that you attempt to juxtapose two unparalleled and disproportional instances while putting the isolated (again: NOT centrally-planned and executed) atrocities of revenging Armenians BEFORE the Turkish crime against humanity that occurred EARLIER in time. How reasonable does it seem for an intellectual like yourself to try to juxtapose initial perpetrators and their large-scale annihilation of a race and appropriation of two-thirds of the Armenian Homeland with scattered vengeance that Turkish villagers endured afterwards from Armenians? Do you go and kill a person and then complain about how cruel the murdered person’s relatives were with regard to your relatives? Frankly, Memik, it is awkward to hear such a rigid event juxtaposition and chronological distortion from a person who claims he admits the genocide of Armenians happened. If you admit it happened, as known starting 1915, then why are you surprised at subsequent retaliatory atrocities of the Armenians? Or you expect Armenians to behave like sheep when they’re being butchered by the Turks and like angels when the butchery is over? What kind of mentality is this? Burning Mulsims in mosques, although I never heard, but even if that happened, what ethnos committed such barbarous acts first: Armenians or Turks? My grandmother’s maternal side members were burnt in a church in 1915. Could you guess whom the Armenians might have learnt such barbarity from? I think putting emphasis on Armenian retaliatory excesses as a pretext for the Turks to offer an apology for earlier race extermination doesn’t do you credit, Memik. Frankly. You discount the cause-consequence lineage and attempt to equalize an initial Turkish crime that was coined genocide by the community of nations with a consequent segmented retaliatory actions of Armenians, which, to me, is as derogatory as the genocide denial (on the whole, not related to you personally).
I second your thought that there are sincere and reasonable people on both sides who are not afraid to admit their part of the guilt, but, Memik, on whose side the guilt starts and is it comparable in scope, magnitude, and grief with the part of the other side’s guilt? From what you’ve read, seen, or heard re: the genocide, do you really think that Turkish and consequent Armenian crimes can be equal “parts” of the guilt? From what you’ve read, seen, or heard re: the genocide, do you really think that it was the central Armenian government that initiated the mass slaughter of innocent Turks? From what you’ve read, seen, or heard re: the genocide, do you really think that Turks now live in the remaining one third of their historical homeland (repeat: historical homeland not imperial acquisition), amongst the remnants of the population that was virtually eliminated, and surrounded with detonated and desecrated cultural marvels—all as a result of Armenian “crimes”? If you continue to juxtapose the two and attempt to consider the two as “parts” of guilt, then I’m sorry to say you’re no different from the majority of insincere and unreasonable people who have an unhealthy sense of history and identity, who discount arguments before making accusations, and who constructively seek the grounds for reconciliation and future co-existence based on Turkish version of reconciliation and future co-existence.
A precision re: the notion of “ethnic bias,” which, for some reason, you don’t understand. It is not related to biases due to one’s upbringing, personality, religious or ideological inclinations, but to one’s belief that ethnos (or race) accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular ethnos is superior to others. It also accounts for discrimination or prejudice based on ethnicity. Now, I don’t necessarily extrapolate these on you personally, but the majority of Turks and certainly your denialist and distortionist government do suffer from such a bias.
Some counter-notes re: the role of a dialogue. Yes, Turkish official apology must come first, as you yourself admitted earlier in your comments. Afterwards, I’d respect those who wish to engage in a dialogue with the ones who are in fundamental disagreement, but here I have some reservations that I remember became the arguing points with Boyajian elsewhere on these pages. To me, any attempt at dialogue BEFORE the official apology runs a risk of prolongation of justice for Armenians, because such a dialogue will be a part of a LONG and laborious process of reconciliation. Turks may use this dialogue-short-of-apology as an instrument to delay justice and make reparations. Memik, I’m saying this based on Armenians’ superb and first-hand knowledge of some ethnic characteristics of the Turks. Therefore, official apology first. I also have reservations in terms of technicalities for conducting such a dialogue. Is it really the Armenians’ prerogative to educate mostly brainwashed Turks (Memik, by “brainwashed” I only mean taught distorted version of history and the denial of genocide) about the heinous crimes of their forefathers? I believe it is the prerogative of the Turkish government when and if it’ll mature enough to be able to repent. Secondly, I find it difficult for a nation of roughly 10 mln people to conduct a dialogue with the nation of 73 mln people. This population imbalance, which resulted from annihilation and forced expulsions of millions of Armenians, doesn’t seem realistic to leave an impact on the Turkish society. To me, the Turkish society needs to look inwards to try to get truthful, non-ideologized answers to the questions such as where millions of Greeks, Alawis, Assyrians, and Armenians inhabiting those lands are? Whose cultural and architectural monuments are spread—desecrated, bombed, transformed to mosques and sheepfolds—all over the country? How many millions of Turkish citizens can claim their non-Turkish, non-Muslim identity, if Article 301 of the Penal Code is lifted, and why were they made to call themselves Turks, etc.?
Re: “Turks could be viewed as rightful inhabitants had they treated the nations they came to enslave and colonize, at least, as EQUAL” compared this with my statement: “Turks can only fulfill their claim to the land only if show (Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, Assyrian…) civilizations proper care and respect”. We seem to be an agreement here.” Well, I don’t think we are, because you implicitly advance the proviso you brought up earlier in that Kurdish, Armenian, Greek, Assyrian civilizations be given proper care and respect as repatriates in their capacity as Turkish citizens, not as historical owners of their lands. Boyajian explained eloquently and convincingly as to why this is inadmissible for Armenians, so I’ll pass on this point.
Lastly, re: attachment towards the Altay mountains. I brought this not in terms of attachment, but in terms of historical homeland of the Turks—nomadic Seljuk and Mongol—that has nothing to do with Asia Minor where they now reside as a result of annihilation of all sedentary civilizations. Whether you personally feel attached to Altay mountains and Mongolian steppes doesn’t essentially change the fact that your ancestors’ homeland belongs in those regions, NOT originally in Asia Minor. Therefore, your notion of a joint-state is, I’m afraid, irrelevant because Asia Minor was NOT historically Turkish. Here you also seem to juxtapose the home owner and the invader who broke in with fire and sword and at the end wiped out the owner’s relatives, stole his properties and personal belongings, bank accounts, and appropriated his house. Only afterwards he “graciously” suggested: “Come, we can live in a joint-home together, but, remember, the premises now belong to me!” How acceptable is such a proposition of yours from a moral point of view? Put yourself in the place of the homeowner, how would you feel?
No Muslim ethnic group (Arab, Turkmen, Kurd, etc.) in the Ottoman empire suffered the fate in such a magnitude and numbers as Christians. Yes, Arabs also suffered as Muslims, but the Ottoman Turkish mistreatment of the Christians, mainly the Armenians who suffered the most, was unexcelled. Please try to be objective.
Also, there is virtually nothing to suggest that there appears to be a “chance” in modern-day Turkey to replace arbitrary rule with a truly democratic regime. Distortive Kemalist ideology exists, the strong grip of the military on the society exists, egomaniac nationalism exists, execution of truth-speakers exists, distortion of history persists, deportation of intellectuals, among which are Nobel Prise laureates, exixts, killings of Christian priests exists, Article 301 exists, and the genocide of the Kurds is in progress. Among many other factors, these don’t give me hope that there may be a chance for “truly democratic regime” any time soon. Sorry.
Amen to that Mjm jam.. Amen to that…